WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.320 Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcasts. 2 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.759 Okay, now for the lightning round. I'm so good at lightning rounds. 3 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:15.160 That's from Friends. It's my favorite show. Twenty seconds on the Clock 4 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.359 starts. Now, who is the captain of the USS Enterprise? Crap? 5 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:26.960 Is it Captain Stubing? No, Morgan Crunch. Next question, which superhero 6 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:32.280 is Tony Stark? Stark? Did Game of Thrones have superheroes? I only 7 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:37.399 watch two episodes? What planet where Luke and Leah born on Planet Fitness? 8 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:45.000 Oh? Time's up? Sorry? And now a word from our sponsor. 9 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:49.640 Hey, everybody, nandy kaplan here. Please check out my podcast Make Me 10 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:54.479 a Nerd, where each week an incredible guest tries to baptize this mainstream mom 11 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:58.880 into the world of sci fi, fantasy, and all things nerdy. Available 12 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:02.759 wherever you podcast. That's our show, folks. Wait, mo weeit. 13 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:04.879 I just thought of it. Padme Amidala gave birth to her twins, Luke 14 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.200 and Leah on Paulus Masa. No, that's dumb, is it planning? 15 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:22.359 Hollywood? All right? Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. 16 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.519 Riki and myself are going to be discussing the topic for child soldiers in 17 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.799 the genre fiction that we love, science fiction and fantasy and all the rest 18 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:37.560 superheroes. And this is in some ways a continuation of one of our last 19 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:41.719 episodes where we were talking about like, you know, what, what do 20 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.239 we do with villains, what do we do with the people who work for 21 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:46.680 villains, what do we do with you know, all these kind of things, 22 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:49.560 And Jared Silva, who's a colleague of both of ours, had brought 23 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:53.120 the question of child soldiers and preaking in terms of the Padawans from Star Wars 24 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.000 and things like that, and it was we talked about it a bit on 25 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.400 that and realized though it was much heavier topic and one that really there was 26 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.439 so much depth to that we wanted to give it a whole episode. So 27 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.000 thanks again to Jared, and a reminder to our listeners, like, you 28 00:02:07.039 --> 00:02:09.479 know, give us the feedback, all the informations on the show notes. 29 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:13.039 Just go to the Ethical Pana dot com. You'll find all of that. 30 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.159 Part of why this is a heavier topic is that child soldiers are obviously a 31 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:23.159 very real problem and a very real situation in our world today. And I 32 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:27.159 think when we say that word, we often think about it in terms of 33 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.520 some of the you know, civil wars and revolutions that are happening in Africa, 34 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:37.280 where the use of child soldiers has been very well documented. But I 35 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.439 think you can talk about child soldiers in many parts of the world, certainly 36 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.680 in Northern Ireland for a while when that was an issue. I think you 37 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:49.439 can look at the way kids of all backgrounds and all races, not just 38 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:51.639 black as me he wants to portray it, but the way kids can get 39 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.479 wrapped up in gang culture at young age and gang fighting and things like that. 40 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:58.960 So just a reminder, this is this is we're talking about it in 41 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.639 science fiction infa to see, but obviously we're talking about has some very heavy 42 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:06.120 real work connotations, which is I think part of why we wanted to talk 43 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.560 about it, because so often it's a fun story about kids who want to 44 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.840 go to you know, get to sign up and be a starfighter or be 45 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.520 a general, or be a Jedi. So, Ricky, what's kind of 46 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:21.080 what was kind of your initial thought process in when we first got this question 47 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.120 and wanted to think about doing the whole episode on it. Well, I 48 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:27.680 had been talking to you about wanting to do this topic even before that. 49 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.639 Oh yeah, that's correct, You're correct, thank you, Because you know, 50 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:38.800 I'm a fan of anime, specifically mecha anime, and pretty much pretty 51 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:46.520 much every popular mecca anime features a main character piloting one of the giant robots 52 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:52.680 who is a child, like a teenager, often a young teenager to start, 53 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.319 So I had already broached the subject, and I said, well, 54 00:03:54.360 --> 00:04:00.800 like, and also like, my Netflix algorithm is recommending Enders Game, which 55 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:03.360 is a you know, a western example of this. And then I started 56 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.439 going through stuff. I was like, wait a minute, like this is 57 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:13.240 just a thing in like everything we watch, you had around the same time, 58 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:21.680 mentioned you've rewatched war games, and that like wargames and Enders Game are 59 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:26.079 both like right around the same time, I believe, like mid eighties, 60 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:30.879 nineteen eighties. And then there's another movie from that era, The Last star 61 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:35.240 Fighter, which also fits that mold. And then Classic by the way, 62 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.560 if you haven't seen it, I'm gonna include a link to it on our 63 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.279 show notes. Definitely check it out if you haven't seen it. Yeah, 64 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.680 kind of like a lost classic. I don't feel like it's even like a 65 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:49.839 cult classic that really gets talked about much these days. And then yeah, 66 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:57.360 the anime my favorite Gundam started started in the seventies, but was very prominent 67 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.759 in the eighties as well. So I was thinking about and it's like, 68 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.720 why did we suddenly get this in the eighties, And I think it's because 69 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:12.319 of technology, because computers had reached a point where they were actually a thing, 70 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.079 right, like home computers, Apple two see, like et cetera. 71 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:24.120 And like video games, especially the Nintendo Entertainment System Atari. So kids are 72 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:29.399 playing video games at this time, and all of these movies and TV shows, 73 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.480 you know, piloting a Mecca is essentially a video game to some extent. 74 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:40.240 The Last Starfighter literally like an arcade console game, is used as a 75 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:46.759 recruiting tool by an intergalactic rebellion, right. And then War Games, of 76 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.600 course is just like he was a hacker who thought he was playing a video 77 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.759 game and it turns out he was playing against like a a sky net. 78 00:05:55.399 --> 00:06:00.120 Right. Yeah, it's so interesting, And I want to say more about 79 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:01.839 this, but kind of actually probably setting up the first point I'm going to 80 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:05.120 make. I have a question for you. I know that in America, 81 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:11.160 one of the things that I think really drove that change is that you started 82 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.240 getting a lot of TV shows, particularly animated shows, that were driven primarily 83 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.560 by desire to sell toys to kids. Sure, because like you said, 84 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:20.800 not only was it about the video game of the Mecca, but actually selling 85 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:25.319 the robot to kids. And like you know, we know, like shows 86 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:30.920 like he Man and Shira came directly out of corporate wanting to sell these toys. 87 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.199 Do you have the same thing in Japan? Like other animes that were 88 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:39.279 like the Japanese toy makers were clearly trying to like push so that they could 89 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:43.839 sell Gunda Robots toys to kids. Of course, I mean like Transformers is 90 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:49.120 a Japanese originally a Japanese product, mm hmm, yeah, and that is 91 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:56.279 probably the I would guess, the biggest toy seller in the eighties. It's 92 00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.519 possible towards the end like teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles shows up, But to me, 93 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:05.720 like eighties and kids toys, I think of Transformers and Star Wars. 94 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:13.879 Yeah, but you asked about Gundam, Like Gundam is interesting because they chose 95 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.879 to go less into toys and more into the plastic model kits, the gunpluw 96 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:24.199 which is still like often you know, kids buy them and build them, 97 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:29.199 but it's it's very interesting that they chose not to go as much into the 98 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.920 prepackaged toys and they basically conquered that market. Like the model kit market is 99 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:40.079 synonymous with Gundam, probably like eighty percent market share. And oh that's really 100 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:44.079 interesting, Okay, Like it is because it used to be like you you 101 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.680 would build like when I was a kid, I had gunplub but I also 102 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:53.920 built like battleships and you know, real world fighter jets. But that's that's 103 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.399 kind of gone away, right, Like if you build a plastic model kit, 104 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.480 you're building a Gundam. Yeah, I think think oddly enough, I 105 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:03.920 think Lego has mostly replaced that market. Like if you want to build a 106 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:09.560 Model Star Destroyer, you get the Lego starters, yeah, and and that, 107 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.839 and that's like cleaner and safer, right because you're not dealing with the 108 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:18.360 epoxy glue and and hav to like cut stuff, so there's no paint that 109 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:20.240 kids are gonna want to sniff in his money, but you're not gonna agree. 110 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.920 Lego is cornering in on the market, So I guess I'd be curious 111 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:30.480 to see whether those are considered the same by by markets, by toy markets. 112 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:33.279 Well, and I don't want to go too far down this road, 113 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.080 but I'm not really curious about it, Like because when you talk to me 114 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:41.039 about like miniatures of you know that of models that kids want to put together, 115 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:45.600 our adults want to put together and build and paint. I think about 116 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:50.440 miniatures for warfare, like Warhammer type stuff. Were there Gundom games or was 117 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.000 it just about like creating this cool thing that put on your shelf or play 118 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.360 with you, with you and your friends, without like a specifics that are 119 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.600 rules attached. No, they're like I mean, to my knowledge, they 120 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:07.360 are not because they like Gundam is usually scaled around one to one forty four, 121 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:11.000 and I would say they stand about I don't know, like close to 122 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.720 a foot. So yeah, it's not something you would carry like a whole 123 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.440 unit with you to a like Warhammer. You just put them in the case 124 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.679 and you could have like two dozen of them. No, Gundam is like 125 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:31.759 mostly a display things like similar to the like superhero figures that you might see 126 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.200 at a comic book store. Right. Well, and then it makes sense, 127 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.000 but I think it just further ties in that than in both places, 128 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.679 and probably I'm sure in other places around the world as well. I feel 129 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:45.879 like part of the eighties was you get a lot more programming aimed at children, 130 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.240 in part because of the explosion of this toy market and so and kids. 131 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.360 As we've talked about kids like to see themselves on screen, I think 132 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:54.080 a lot of adults like to see kids as well, because you know, 133 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.440 nostalgia for our youth, or just because they're you know. I mean, 134 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.080 I think, like we've talked before that one of the things we love about 135 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.759 Avatar is that they are younger kids and that there's there's just a different perspective 136 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.919 that they have. I think the Percy Jackson books are another great example of 137 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.279 this, and the Percy Jackson TV show, especially because when they were aged 138 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.039 up for the movie, a lot of people didn't like that, and so, 139 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.519 yeah, I think they're I can't understand why people like to put children 140 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.919 into these stories and have them be heroic, and I think that's also also 141 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.399 kind of awesome. What's the flip side of it, though, Why, 142 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.919 Like, I was you doing an episode about it? Because I think we 143 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.919 think that this might not always be the best thing. Yeah, I mean, 144 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:43.240 it's hugely problematic to have kids in war, Like you're you're absolutely right 145 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.159 that you want to have some kind of audience projection. You want the kids 146 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.679 watching your show to imagine that they could be a gun dump pilot. And 147 00:10:52.720 --> 00:11:00.720 I think there's a there's a reasonable separation when you have something as fantasantastic and 148 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:07.440 futuristic as Gundam, because we're kind of starting to get there with robot technology, 149 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:13.039 but it's not really feasible, right, And the same with the Last 150 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:18.919 star Fighter, Like it's a funny concept. The Arcade console game could be 151 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.679 used to recruit for to be a star Fighter pilot, but we don't have 152 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:33.639 Starfighters. But I like it is one confirmed that the US Army uses video 153 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:39.000 games now, Like Call of Duty in particular is a very prominent one to 154 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.240 recruit, like whether like directly, like through promotions like in the community and 155 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:48.639 the game, or I know they have a they have like a US Army 156 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:54.480 Esports team that goes around and like act does actual recruiting at events and stuff, 157 00:11:56.279 --> 00:12:01.200 and that's I don't know, like that that's scarier when it's real. 158 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.200 It is very easy for me to be like, yeah, like I enjoy 159 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.000 Gundam, Like when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, 160 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:09.919 I was like, yeah, I want to be a Gunda pilot, Like 161 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.559 that was never going to happen. But when you are using a real life 162 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.600 warfare video game to promote and recruit for the army, then you're like, 163 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:28.399 wait a minute, like this is this is getting a little sketchier because like 164 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.159 I want to I want to bring up, like we were talking about child 165 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:37.080 soldiers, like what are the rules? Right, Like, we all recognize 166 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:43.039 that there has to be rules, and I think specifically the Geneva Convention of 167 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:54.960 nineteen forty nine, Additional Protocol one to the Geneva Conventions states state parties shall 168 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.879 take all feasible measures to ensure that members of their armed forces who have not 169 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.960 attained the age of eighteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities. 170 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.759 So that's the international law that most nations have agreed to at this point. 171 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.360 Yeah, And it's interesting because I think we're kind of looking at how there's 172 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:22.080 a couple of different elements to this question, because when I think of child 173 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.159 soldiers, what comes to mind for me? First, I think for a 174 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:30.559 lot of people is like people who are like early teenagers or sometimes even like 175 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:35.440 not teenagers, you know from like in a rural world like twelve, fourteen, 176 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.840 fifteen, and then in a world's like enders game, it can go 177 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.919 to like eight even or ten. And so remember when you first said last 178 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:48.200 Starfighter, it didn't really click for me at first, because I think that 179 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.519 character is he's kind of just on that age where I think he's supposed to 180 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.279 be a senior in high school. He's getting ready to graduate. Yeah, 181 00:13:54.519 --> 00:14:00.519 and so he's probably on that list of like seventeen eighteen. Part of what 182 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.039 that got me thinking about, and this is I don't know if Paul is 183 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.720 to listening, but I know topic palm, I've talked about quite a lot 184 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.720 that idea of eighteen or over. Like I think if you have to have 185 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:16.840 a guideline, I think a guideline is good. That's probably about a good 186 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.000 age, but it also a it implies this idea that like, you know, 187 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.720 some magical switch happens and if you're seventeen years and three hundred and sixty 188 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:28.080 four days, you're not mature enough to be a soldier, but then the 189 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:33.399 next day happens and you get a party and suddenly you're able to be a 190 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.039 soldier, which I think like you know, there are twenty five year olds 191 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:39.559 who are not ready to be soldiers, and there probably are sixteen year olds 192 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.720 who are, Like, development is not I'm not saying sixteen year olds to 193 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.120 be soldiers, to be very very clear, But I think part of what 194 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.840 else who we're getting at there with Starfighter and with what happens in real world 195 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:56.600 with call of Duty and things like that, is that it's not It's one 196 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:00.279 thing to say, like we won't allow you officially in until you're eighteen keen, 197 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.120 I mean already. I think it's problematic, but I think all kinds 198 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.840 of soldiers are problematic. But to be clear, with all respect to those 199 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.279 who are in the armed forces, I'm talking about the recruitment that happens to 200 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.679 them. But when you're talking about call of duty, when you're talking about 201 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.320 the last Starfighter, part of the idea here is that people are playing starting 202 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.720 at twelve, thirteen or even much younger, you know, and so like, 203 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:26.600 yes, maybe someone waits till their eighteenth birthday or their high school graduation 204 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.240 to sign up for the military, or if they've been playing Call of Duty, 205 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.399 which is specifically like made in an attempt to help people want to be 206 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:39.080 in the military, Like how much is the like the I don't want to 207 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:43.399 say brainwashing feels like too strong a term, but definitely a like part of 208 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.399 the concern with child soldiers, I think is that kids can be more easily 209 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.120 influenced, not always, but certainly a lot of the time. And so 210 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.879 like, I think it's bad to like propaganda's fourteen year olds and then put 211 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.759 a gun in their hand. But I think part of what you've got me 212 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:03.200 thinking of is propaganda them starting at fourteen or twelve or ten, but they're 213 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:04.720 not putting the gun in their hands till their eighteen. Actually is that much 214 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:12.600 better? Yeah? And I think like the fiction that we are talking about 215 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:21.519 starts to starts to hint at a direction we are going with technology and military 216 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.559 where it can become even more dangerous because you talk about a gun in your 217 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:32.519 hand, But now we are fighting war wars with drones, right, And 218 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.799 who's to say that a fifteen year old isn't piloting a drone? I mean, 219 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:40.440 like international law says that you shouldn't do that, But again, like, 220 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:45.279 I'm not a lawyer on the Geneva Conventions, so I don't know if 221 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:52.039 it would actually prohibit that because it you know, is that quote unquote active 222 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:56.200 combat right to pilot a drone? I think it is. But like obviously, 223 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:00.480 like we can imagine lawyers who would argue that it isn't right. Well, 224 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.359 especially because I think, like for me, part of the reason against 225 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:11.240 child soldiers. I'm primarily thinking of like mental and like you know, psychological 226 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.680 development and like is you know, I think there is an age young enough 227 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.000 where you're just not really fully understanding of the consequences of your actions in a 228 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.119 way that I think you really have to be if you are possibly killing other 229 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.759 human beings. And I will talking about how an enders game like that not 230 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.240 lack of knowledge is actually part of the point sometimes with younger soldiers. But 231 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.799 also there's a physical development aspect. You know, some fifteen year olds are 232 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.480 the size they're going to be as adults and could probably kick the ass of 233 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.279 a lot of adults. Most aren't. Though most fifteen year olds probably can't 234 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:47.759 carry the forty time backpack the way a twenty two year old could. And 235 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.000 so you're right, So there's kind of just a physical like you're not big 236 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:52.920 enough to be a soldier yet, kid, Go grow up some more and 237 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.599 then come back. But the flip side of that is that, yeah, 238 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:03.160 you're right. If warfare is sitting in a building playing with a computer and 239 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.519 as a result, you know, dozens or hundreds of people are dying, 240 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.119 Yeah, you don't need you don't need those physical skills. So it becomes 241 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.279 a lot easier to have people who aren't as physically mature but have the dexterity 242 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:19.079 or whatever it is that you need, or just the mental capacity. And 243 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.240 so with that, let's actually transition into talking about Enders games specifical, because 244 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.920 they do. You want to talk about some of these specific genres, and 245 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.000 Enders game is definitely one of them. Do you want to give for those 246 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:32.960 I think most people know the basics of Ender story, but you want to 247 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.480 give like a quick summary for anyone who doesn't. Yeah, I mean the 248 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:48.559 main character Ender is is he like genetically modified. His parents are authorized by 249 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.720 like this is like very scary stuff. His parents are authorized by the government 250 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:57.519 to have a third child because their genes are like so superior. But the 251 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.559 first two children didn't turn out quite right. One was too violent, one 252 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.119 was too compassionate, and then like the third one, Ender is just right, 253 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.480 like the goldilocks of the gene pool. You know that, because you 254 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:14.640 can determine these things. And he is he is a genius. He's like 255 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.559 recruited in the army at like eight or something like very young, like much 256 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.640 younger than pretty much anything else like in any of these fictions we're talking about, 257 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:30.559 and goes to a battle school in space in orbit with the zero gravity 258 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.079 combat and excels at these games you know Enders game. He excels at these 259 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:41.160 games where he's a commander of other child soldiers, like entire armies who basically 260 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.599 fight like zero gravity laser tag, right, and he is so good at 261 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:52.519 all this. The human the human military, it's like the world military at 262 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.880 this point, because they are fighting against a race of bugs, an alien 263 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.960 force of bugs who invaded Earth that at one point, and they are preparing 264 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:07.079 for what they say is the next invasion, but in fact Earth is counter 265 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.920 invading. They've sent a fleet off already and it reaches the bug space. 266 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:18.599 An Ender and his fellow kids actually take command of this fleet. Unknowingly, 267 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.920 they are being they are told that they are just playing more games to help 268 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:27.200 their training, but they are actually in command of a real fleet that is 269 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:37.200 destroying bug planets and ultimately reaches the bug home planet and Ender again thinks he's 270 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.440 only playing a game, sees the insurmountable Aussie's up against and chooses to use 271 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:47.359 a weapon. What do they call it, doctor device? I think, 272 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:52.200 yeah, it's it's it's a maguff and it's a it's a space nuke that 273 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.160 can destroy an entire planet, and he chooses to use it in the game 274 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.119 because in his mind, he's just up with it. He's like, they 275 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.799 keep making the game harder and harder and impossible to win. F it, 276 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.319 like, I'm just going to drop this nuke and like get out of the 277 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.599 system. He thinks he's going to wash out because of this, because he 278 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:17.920 quote unquote broke the rules right, so to speak. And then everyone is 279 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.880 overjoyed because like he has destroyed the bugs, and he's like, what do 280 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.559 you mean? And they finally tell him what's been going on, and it 281 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:32.400 just breaks him because he has committed Zeno side is the phrase that is used 282 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:38.000 in this novel, and it's I think it's I liked it when I was 283 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:42.759 a kid. I mean I read this in high school and it has a 284 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:48.839 couple of sequels that are I think, okay, pretty good but when you 285 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:56.720 think about it in this context, like it's it's terribly frightening. Yeah, 286 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.480 yeah, I think I agree with you. And it's interesting how the book 287 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.519 gets played because I think for a lot of kids, especially if you're kind 288 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:08.279 of like the nerdy kid who's getting peased and maybe beaten up by bullets at 289 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.559 your school and things like this, Like for our younger viewers, it's maybe 290 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.200 harder to remember, but there was a time when, like the geeks weren't 291 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.039 the cool kids. You know, anyone's alden after getting shoved into a locker 292 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.319 or something like that, knows what I'm talking about. And so for me, 293 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.599 like I think, for I actually read it as an adult, but 294 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.559 I still had a lot of that nostalgia. But I think, certainly for 295 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:33.240 a lot of people who read this as kids, seeing a kid who was 296 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:42.000 successful because he was smarter than everyone else was really really appealing, and the 297 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.079 book, I think, I think the point that the author orson Scott Card 298 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.000 was trying to make. And to be clear, he's someone who I have 299 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.480 a lot of disagreements with. He's fairly conservative, a lot of things in 300 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.319 later books, a lot of his homophobia and like Christianity in the conservative problematic 301 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.759 way kind of comes out a lot more. But I think he was on 302 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.039 to an interesting point here. Well, the point I think he's trying to 303 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:11.480 make is that this is horrific and terrible, but that it worked because that 304 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:17.839 warfare is so awful, that there's something in the human spirit that will like 305 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:21.839 pull away from having to do the thing you need to do in the face 306 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:26.079 of an existential threat, and that kids who to some extent haven't learned that 307 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.200 yet or just don't know that this is serious yet, won't do that. 308 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:37.400 And I think the book is meant to keep it as an open question of 309 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.240 was this necessary to do? And to some extent, I think the book 310 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.119 is somewhat arguing it wasn't, especially because part of what we'll later learn is 311 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.279 that, you know, this being an insectoid race, they think very differently 312 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.759 about individual life, and that a lot of it, like we think of 313 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.920 them as monstrous and genocidal, it's not. It's that they see things very 314 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:00.599 differently, and that there been more piece attempts, munication attempts, maybe peace 315 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.079 would have happened. But I think the book is written in such a way 316 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.880 that you could come across thinking like, yeah, children should be in charge 317 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.359 of everything. Children are smarter, children are better. And there's some ways 318 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:12.400 in which I really agree with that, in some ways in which I think 319 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:18.079 you're kind of saying that in an existential threat, anything and everything is not 320 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.960 good, but okay, And I think it's why I really like the book 321 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.519 so much. And I don't. I think I come to different conclusions than 322 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.160 the author, but I think it really does. At least, this book 323 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:34.279 tries to say this is going to be incredibly traumatic for kids, even if 324 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:38.960 they don't realize it, in a way that I think a lot of the 325 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.519 other works we're going to talk about, like Last Starfighter, it's kind of 326 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:45.680 like, oh, it's fun, and it's like, oh, this poor 327 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.200 kid that he's thrown into a war they had no idea he was going to 328 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.720 do when he's seventeen. But there's never any discussion of like, oh, 329 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.079 this should like this was bad to do to him because he's so young, 330 00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:03.000 you know. Yeah, I think Card the author try it like I don't 331 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.839 know, because like he wrote it in the seventies and eighties, we don't 332 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.799 know what he was thinking. But it seems like he tries to walk back 333 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.200 some of what he does in this first book. With the sequels in terms 334 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:22.279 of especially like the alien race, the buggers and the miscommunication, I guess 335 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.960 it's kind of there at the end, but it's not really addressed as well 336 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.920 as some of the sequels do. And there are like very interesting philosophical points 337 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:36.359 about alien contact, you know, miscommunication, first contact, and like also 338 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:44.880 like how we view humanity and like alien like literal alien races in terms of 339 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:51.839 how they look, because I think the idea of a bug and insectoid alien 340 00:25:51.920 --> 00:26:00.519 race being benign is alien to a lot of the fiction that we that we 341 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.079 consume, Like usually they are monstrous and like they're here to eat us and 342 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:10.799 all that, and like I think art does play into that, but then 343 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.519 it's like, well, but let's imagine that they are not that m h. 344 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.880 In terms of ender Gosh, like he does he's broken, Like in 345 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.319 the first book, he's broken. He goes into a deep, deep depression 346 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.799 after this, as he should, like I don't say like that he deserves 347 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.000 it, but as a character should when they find out that they have committed 348 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:41.759 zenocide. Yeah, And I think the adults who run the Battle school like 349 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.000 get away with it too much. I don't know that there's any consequences at 350 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.839 all. Maybe it's like mentioned, but I think there's like war crimes trials, 351 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.480 but most of them are like they're all kicked out of the military, 352 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.680 like they get to retire, They get to retire comfortably, like is the 353 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:04.920 end result. And to be clear, the things they're doing hav in real 354 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.799 life consequences go much earlier before the war started, I think. And there 355 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.839 actually goes to the school when he's like five or six, because part of 356 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.759 the point is that he's a super genius from a very young age. Yeah, 357 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.559 and there's a scene early in the book forgive me for spoilers, but 358 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.359 this is like thirty years old. What are you even the movie is like 359 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:32.240 ten years old where he's part of what they're training him to do is again 360 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.319 to be willing, to be ruthless, to be willing to do what you 361 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.720 have to do. And so at a very young age, he's being bullied 362 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:44.000 quite cruelly, and the administration refuses to step in and protect him because they 363 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:48.000 want to see what he will do. And what he does is wind up 364 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.880 killing one of the kids and bullied, like he is confronted like three or 365 00:27:52.920 --> 00:28:00.480 four on one in the showers with no supervision, no protect and they just 366 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:04.680 like they're going to wail on him, and he counter whales on them and 367 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:11.160 kills the head bully, right, and the the administrators wind up walking this 368 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:15.400 line where on the one hand, they don't want ender to know that that 369 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.000 kid died, so they lie to him and they tell him he decided to 370 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:22.119 leave the school, but he's okay, don't worry about it. But also 371 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.559 they're like, this is good because what happened. We put him in a 372 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.279 combat situation where the only way he could survive, as he understood it, 373 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:34.599 was to use extreme measures, and then he did. And like, to 374 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:40.160 me, that's almost like that's the point where I really think you're supposed to 375 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.960 be like, these guys are horrible and terrible, and and that's why in 376 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:48.960 some ways I hate that it works, because I fully agree mm hm, 377 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:56.400 the adults are horrible, and I think that this should be the point of 378 00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:03.000 a discussion, like this is a you got to have limits on like how 379 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:10.839 young like you you recruit or even you know, use child soldiers, if 380 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:18.200 at all, but the adults in the room have to be responsible. Yeah, 381 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:22.960 And you said, like even twenty five year olds might not be emotionally 382 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:30.720 developed to be soldiers. Like, so even the adults, like the generals 383 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:38.319 or whoever is responsible for soldiers have to be very very responsible in terms of 384 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:44.720 you know, how people are used their mental and emotional states, and like 385 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:49.799 this is an ongoing problem, right, like PTSD is a thing, and 386 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:56.119 oftentimes, like veterans who come back from wars are not properly taken care of. 387 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.880 Like I think that is also a discussion that has to happen, like 388 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.000 not just how young do your group, but no matter the age, like, 389 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:10.119 take care of the people you are putting into horrible situations. Yeah, 390 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.319 Like I know one of the problems they've dealt with the most in child soldier 391 00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:18.160 situations is that even when they are captured, slash, rescued and like taken 392 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.279 out of that situation, that often these kids are they have learned from an 393 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.640 incredibly young age to be violent as a way to deal with problems, and 394 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.640 it creates a lot of like social problems and things like that they can last 395 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.799 into adulthood. And I think where and that's again where you get in the 396 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.440 situation of like what we were talking about in the last episode about blame, 397 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:41.599 Like obviously, like a twenty five year old who is you know, harming 398 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.440 others is a problem, but if that twenty five year old was raised to 399 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.039 be a child soldier at twelve, I want that to be taken into account 400 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.119 when we're trying to figure out how to deal with this person, you know. 401 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.400 I think one of the things that Ender also the ener game Bok also 402 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.599 raises is this question of how much can you bend the rules or break the 403 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.759 rules when facing an existential threat. And that's actually something that's brought up in 404 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.359 the Clone Wars to some extent, And so I want to switch to talking 405 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:12.160 about the question of are the Patawan's child soldiers and how does that affect how 406 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:15.599 we see the Jedi. I want to see a quick moment to say though, 407 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:17.880 that if you enjoy conversations like this, if you want more people to 408 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:21.319 hear them, please hit like, Please hit subscribe, Please share this with 409 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:23.880 other people, get other people into the conversation. We love feedback. We're 410 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.279 getting live feedback from Zen mad Man, and we've had it from other people 411 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.759 during recordings. I'm going to try and get better about letting people know when 412 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:36.400 we're recording, but it's pretty much generally for the Star Wars Podcast five point 413 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:42.720 thirty Central Time on Wednesdays and for the Superhero Ethics noon Central Time on Thursdays. 414 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:45.440 But of course if those times don't work for you, you can always 415 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.599 just you know, watch later and send us feedback. All that information is 416 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.000 on the show notes, Twitter, Facebook. If you can figure out how 417 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.119 to get a carrier pigeon into my house, yeah, characters, you gotta 418 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.720 be really really nice to that bird. But if you can do it, 419 00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:04.000 go for it. Phlepathy, I'm open to everything. Send us feedback, 420 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:06.000 We'd love to hear it. And most importantly, if you want to support 421 00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:08.559 this podcast and also get even more of our content, please think about the 422 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.279 coming A member five dollars a month or fifty five dollars a year gets you 423 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.440 add free content, bonus content at the end of most of the episodes, 424 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:21.599 and also bonus episodes. We've only been doing those in the Star Wars podcast, 425 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:23.799 but starting in the late summer or fall, we're constructuring that for Superhero 426 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.440 Ethics as well. And it's also just a great way support the podcast. 427 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.759 And meanwhile, Zen Madman has been typing like mad so I want to read 428 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:32.680 a couple of things from him and then get back to this question. First, 429 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.200 he writes, there are a bunch of streamers, including friends of the 430 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.240 show, Will Friedman, Will Freeland aka Silver Dreamer, who build Legos and 431 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:44.319 Gundam and other models on stream and it's a lot of fun to watch. 432 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.400 I'll definitely a link to his podcast in the show notes. Check that out, 433 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.079 and Paul says he paused and is catching up on two time speeds, 434 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:55.039 so I'm sure our voices sound fun. He then writes, I one percent 435 00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:59.759 agree with the point that eighteen is arbitrary, and sure I can't think of 436 00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:02.400 a bit arbitrary age, and also say the Avatar. Yeah, we're definitely 437 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.000 gona get into Avatar the Last Airbender in a second or in a few minutes. 438 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.960 But let me now put this question to you. Are Padawan's child soldiers? 439 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:15.000 And are the Jedi kind of not great for taking these children? Sometimes 440 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.680 Padawans are almost adult age, are actually adult age, but still Padawans. 441 00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:22.960 But like you know, when a lot of times they're taking twelve and thirteen 442 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:28.720 year olds into battle with them, are Padawan's child soldiers absolutely, and not 443 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:35.960 only that their child military leaders. Yeah, it seems like it's universal that 444 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.920 the the Jedi Masters and Knights are the rank of general, and then the 445 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.880 Padawans are commanders, meaning that they still they have authority over pretty much every 446 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:52.319 Clone soldiers, right, And so this is similar to Enders game where Ender 447 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.200 and his I think it's gesh is the word they use is they are all 448 00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:05.079 basically admirals slash captains, starships and fleets, and I don't know, like 449 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.800 compared to Gundam, this is like very bad. Like in Gundam, the 450 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:13.559 kids just pilot like one bobbile suit. They're very good at it. So 451 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.519 they are often like leading in combat, but it's always like one on one 452 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:23.440 they're they're generally not commanding other troops. So the idea of patawans not just 453 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:30.119 fighting as kids, but leading troops and ordering troops to their death, Like 454 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:37.119 the Ahsoka show actually calls this out where in the world between Worlds episodes, 455 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.920 Ahsoka talks with Ghost Anakin and it's like a flashback to the first Battle and 456 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.840 the Clone Wars that they were in together, and she's like, how do 457 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:52.000 I order people to their deaths? Yeah? And Anakin just kind of shruggs, 458 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:54.039 like, you gotta do what you gotta do in war, yeah, 459 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:58.679 And it's it's terrible, Like I don't know what else to say about it, 460 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:02.639 that it's terrible. And I think when we say kids have like this 461 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.599 can be incredibly traumatic for anybody, but especially for people younger. It's easy 462 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:10.400 to take a kind of ageis idea of oh, kids just aren't emotionally mature 463 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.079 enough to handle these things, and I think it can often be the opposite. 464 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.639 It's that kids aren't so jaded yet that they're okay with these things. 465 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.239 Like I think you can look at it either way, but either way, 466 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:28.119 I think yet Ahsoka is obviously troubled by that. But also look at Barrisofi, 467 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.039 the Jedi who winds up turning on the Jedi in part because she thinks 468 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:36.599 the Jedi aren't living up to the rules that they're supposed to and she thinks 469 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.639 the Jedi are so broken. She starts fighting as a very young child, 470 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.719 at like twelve or thirteen. And I think part of it is that a 471 00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:45.000 lot of the adults are just like, look, war as Hell and the 472 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:49.000 and the world is tough and that's how it is. And she kind of 473 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.079 hasn't become that screwed up and cynical yet, and so for her the problems 474 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:57.800 are that much more inherent and problematic, and that's part of why she turns. 475 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.760 And we can argue about her characters specifically, but I think she's I 476 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.599 think she is a great example of someone who got really screwed up because she 477 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.079 was thrown into war at a very young age. Yeah. And as we're 478 00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:15.079 seeing more of the fallout, like the more Star Wars we get of this 479 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:22.360 era, we are seeing how many I think Padawans who fought during Clone Wars 480 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.760 were turned to the dark Side, like in the Inclusatorious program, right, 481 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:34.280 because it was like and you could argue that this is a subset of Palpatine's 482 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:39.960 plan to break the Jedi order was to find a bunch of dark Side recruits, 483 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:45.079 people who would be broken by this war and you could just like pick 484 00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:51.599 up the pieces and find the best ones to utilize for his purposes. Yeah. 485 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:57.239 And I mentioned the existential threat part because this isn't spelled out very much 486 00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:59.880 in the show, but very much in the books, including the now Disney 487 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:05.480 and in books that the Clone Wars is that is such a desperate situation for 488 00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:09.760 both the Republic and the Jedi, like after the Battle of Geonosis in I 489 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.320 think it's one of the books about Obi Wan and Anakin. I think it's 490 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.480 Brotherhood, but I could be wrong. But basically, one of the Jedi 491 00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:22.639 masters gives a speech about how look, first of all, like all Padawans 492 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:27.280 who are like seventeen eighteen, like your Jedi Knights, congratulations, and we're 493 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.960 gonna give you new Padawans as well, and all of you, you're gonna 494 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:30.880 have to go out and fight. And we don't like this, but we 495 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:36.760 have to because you are so young, and because this war is so desperate, 496 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.880 and that has really traumatic effects actually, and realizing it's not in that 497 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.400 book, it's I think in Rise of the Red Blade. And part of 498 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.119 the idea is that one of the reasons why some of the people who were 499 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:51.760 Padawans fall through the dark Side and become inquisitors is because they were thrown into 500 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.199 wards such a young age, and it really broke their brains in very understandable 501 00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:07.800 ways. Yeah, I like I personally, my feelings on war are such 502 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.719 that it would be great if we didn't have them at all. Yeah, 503 00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.840 And I understand that that's not the world we live in, and that certain 504 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:23.159 things have to be done in order to do those things. In my opinion, 505 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:30.960 you have to break a certain amount of morality within everyone, right, 506 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:37.960 Like I think it hopefully it's like a very natural impulse in it's not even 507 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.280 I don't know, I'm gonna say it like this, that it's a natural 508 00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:45.880 impulse to not murder other humans, or at least like that's how society has 509 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.840 taught us at this point. And then like you have to take a certain 510 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.719 subset of people and say no, no, no, we actually want you 511 00:38:52.760 --> 00:39:00.360 to murder other humans for our purposes. And I do think, like what 512 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:08.760 you're saying with adults, there's a certain typeline of indoctrination i'll call it, 513 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:15.360 which is what we're talking about here with with like the recruitment and now with 514 00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:21.159 like training in video games, like you are indoctrinating a certain subset of people 515 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:23.199 to be like, yes, not only is it okay to kill people, 516 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:27.960 we want we want you, you know, to want to kill people. 517 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.480 Right, that's kind of you know what we're doing. Right. And then 518 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:37.519 with kids, I understanding on that that has a very long history. I 519 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:43.639 mean, I'm sure there are examples of that going back millennia, but just 520 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:47.320 as an example in our own history, you know, in world War two 521 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:52.400 and in World War One, but especially in World War Two, in order 522 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:58.719 to help Americans get over that like you can't kill a human being, there's 523 00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:02.039 an awful lot of propaganda that tried to dehumanize, particularly the Japanese and portray 524 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:07.639 them as like, you know, holking asiatic monsters in these horrifically racist ways, 525 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.320 and the specific goal of that was to be like, no, no, 526 00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:13.119 no, they're not human beings like you. You can kill them, 527 00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.280 it's okay. And similar things were being done on all sides in World War 528 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:20.000 One between like the Germans and the French, and a particularly game at the 529 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:23.679 Russians because they weren't really Europeans and things like that. And yeah, so 530 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.440 I think, and as you talked about, enders game plays on the same 531 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:32.039 thing of when we see like an eight foot tall cockroach, there's a there's 532 00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:36.079 a part of the you know, for most people that's probably like, it's 533 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:38.639 horrifying, that's terrible, And that's part of what allows us to kill animals 534 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.000 so freely because they don't they don't look like us, since we don't see 535 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:49.599 them as life formed in the same way. Yeah, so, like with 536 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:57.880 child child soldiers, like I think, where am I trying to go sorry, 537 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.320 I lost my trail thought, no, that's my fall friend rupting, 538 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:06.880 I apologize. I think what I wanted to say was that with children, 539 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:15.199 you have to break the morality quicker, yeah, to get them to that 540 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:22.880 point. And I don't know, like that or trick them or trick them 541 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.480 into thinking that it's not real, like that happens with enders game. Paul 542 00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.079 also points out in terms of the Star Wars that the Clones are also child 543 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:36.079 soldiers. And I think this is a really interesting thing, particularly in how 544 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:42.320 Disney now has handled this, because in the EU and the Legends canon, 545 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.400 and I think in some of the Clone Wars TV show this is absolutely true. 546 00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:50.360 And in the Republic Commando Legends books, which I talked about a lot, 547 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:52.679 there's a Jedi spends a lot of time with the Clones and touches the 548 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.840 mind of one of them and says, that's really confusing because in many ways 549 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.199 it is the mind of an adults, but in many ways it's the kind 550 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.039 of a child. Yeah. And she has like at one point, like 551 00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:06.119 the two of them start falling in love, and she has real like issues 552 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:10.800 like can this child consent to this? And and she comes to understand that 553 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.559 in those regards he's more of an adult. But it's really left kind of 554 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:20.400 open of like are they child soldiers? The Disney canon has never mentioned that 555 00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.400 idea once, and I think has kind of shifted more to the idea of 556 00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:30.000 part of the clone maturation process is that they are adults, both physically and 557 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.360 mentally and psychologically. And you can argue, like, is that actually possible 558 00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:37.880 to do over three years time instead of air ten years time? And that 559 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.719 kids in an all questions of psychology and stuff, But Disney seems to be 560 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.599 really I think Disney seems to have recognized, Oh, that's a that's a 561 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.920 bad topic, Like, don't get it to like, because the point like 562 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.079 what is an adult? Right? Like we've talked about physical bodies, and 563 00:42:53.440 --> 00:43:00.800 the cloning process is able to somehow subvert the natural aging process and age up 564 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:05.800 a body to maturity, right, like physical maturity in terms of strength and 565 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.079 all that. What is what is an adult in terms of mind? Right? 566 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:15.199 Isn't it just memories? Like because we have eighteen plus years of memories 567 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:22.119 and lived experiences like that is what makes us adults and informs our morality and 568 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:27.159 ability to interact with the world, right, can you implant those memories in 569 00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:31.000 a clone and if you don't have them, like, because I presumably like 570 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.320 they're able to do like matrix style training of like I know kung fu, 571 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:38.960 like I know how to fires, like they just quote unquote program that, 572 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:45.079 yeah, brains, but can you program morality? I don't know, yeah, 573 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:49.440 And I think they're right to not get into into the weeds of that 574 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:53.840 because Star Wars, as much as we say it's sci fi, like, 575 00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:58.760 it's not hard sci fi like, these are not the enemies that we're Star 576 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:06.000 Wars dealing with. So I'm fine with done just like ignoring that to some 577 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:08.000 degree. The last thing I want to bring up, and I think this 578 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.639 is one of the best arguments I've heard for the idea that Patawan's really should 579 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.880 be thought of as child soldiers and that it's not just during this existential threat 580 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:20.599 of the Clone Wars, which I don't think is an extenttional threat necessarily because 581 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.599 the separates just want to leave, like and you've heard me rant about that 582 00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:29.320 in other ways long beforehand, and obviously it becomes it with Order sixty six 583 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.639 and all that, but that's a different story. And this is a spoiler 584 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:35.800 for the most recent episode of The Acolyte, So if you were not up 585 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.679 to date with that, please skip ahead. I'm going to clap and make 586 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:44.039 a big deal when we come back from it. And I'm actually gonna put 587 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.679 exact time notes in the show notes of when we stopped talking about this that 588 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:53.199 no one gets spoiled. So spoilers for the Acolyte in three and actually even 589 00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:55.639 in the in the chat, I will say we are now done with that. 590 00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.840 You can listen again. But spoilers to the Acolyte in three two one. 591 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:05.519 In the most recent step you've seen the most resent episode, right, 592 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:09.320 Ricky, Yeah, okay, I told you I didn't like it. Uh. 593 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:14.719 In the most recent episode, the one of the padawan who's been along 594 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:19.639 with the group, Jeckie, is killed by the person we realize is a 595 00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.360 Dark Side Force user, Darth Biceps, as he's often heard by many on 596 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:29.960 the thirst year side of these discussions, fantastic acting, beautiful, human being, 597 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:37.079 incredible. But and when that happens, Soul says to Kimer, uh, 598 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:39.039 Kaimer, that character, you know, how could you kill her? 599 00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:45.840 And and Kimer responds, You're the one who brought her here? And like 600 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.400 that line to me, just knowing we were gonna record this hit me so 601 00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:52.320 hard because kind of what he's saying is like, you're blaming me for killing 602 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:58.199 the child who you brought into a combat situation. And I mean and like 603 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.599 when it's not like he just murder out of the blue, She's actively trying 604 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:06.199 to kill him, because granted he's been trying to kill others like they are 605 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.960 in a fight to the death, and he kills her as part of a 606 00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:12.519 fight to the death. And you can see how much that line hits soul 607 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:16.199 of because what he's saying is like, you put this child into this life 608 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:21.760 or death situation, and that that to me hit me really hard as a 609 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.400 like, yeah, the clone wars is when it gets really bad, but 610 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:30.679 even hundreds of years beforehand, the Padawans were child soldiers and that's a problem. 611 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.800 Well, yeah, like in this situation, I would say more like 612 00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:40.039 a child cop right, Like this is this is an investigation and they're looking 613 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:45.880 into a murder. They're trying to find a murderer. So it isn't war, 614 00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:52.760 but it is it is absolutely like still a definite life threatening, endangering 615 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:55.239 its situation. Yeah, cop is I think actually at one point I had 616 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:59.880 a theory about, like if the Clone wars about how the Jedi becomes soldier, 617 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:01.639 is the Higher Republic is about how the Jedi become cops, which is 618 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:06.880 the first step towards that. Yea, and yeah, yeah, because they're 619 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.639 investigating. They're not thinking it's a war necessarily, but they know that, 620 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:14.760 like they're investigating a killer and so the killer might attack them and you know, 621 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.000 so yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Okay, 622 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:23.320 we are now done talking about the Acolyte. I'm gonna put a note 623 00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:34.920 in chat. So where are we, Like, do we want to address 624 00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:40.679 any other fiction? I would say, let's talk about Avatar, because Avatar 625 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.119 the Last Airbenders, I see it is a different kind of situation, but 626 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:50.000 is related because on the one hand, like one thing I think I think 627 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:55.800 is an important distinction that we haven't talked about is the difference between adults who 628 00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:02.400 are drafting child soldiers into their wars versus kids who want to run away and 629 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.320 join the war even though adults are trying to stop them. And like Full 630 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.639 Metal Alchemist, I think is a very interesting example that I really love where 631 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:13.679 it's kind of in the middle where like, there are some people who are 632 00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:15.320 like, your kids, you really shouldn't be in this fight. But then 633 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:16.920 once they're in the fight, they're like, well, you can fight, 634 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.599 and we need you. And I don't want to rewatch that before I get 635 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:23.119 into that too much, but I do think that show at least deals with 636 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:29.400 the real trauma of it. Avatar, I think actually shows two different examples 637 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:37.119 of this, because you have the Avatar's friends and oh my god, why 638 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:40.199 am I blanking on their names all of a sudden, not Suki Soka and 639 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.840 begins with the k help me out, Gaitara, thank you, Yosaka and 640 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:51.599 Katara and their father and a lot of the others around them are constantly saying 641 00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:52.840 like, your kids, don't be in this fight, go back, go 642 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:57.800 back home. And for the most part, they're not soldiers, they're not 643 00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.000 being asked to be on the front lines of the actual like battles, but 644 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:05.320 they're surely getting into fights a lot, and so those kids are like kids 645 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:10.199 who the adults don't want to fight. But because Aang is the Avatar, 646 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.840 everyone's like, well, it doesn't matter what age you are, because actually 647 00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:19.360 you're this reincarnation of this ancient, ancient being. So you have to go 648 00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:22.719 fight awards for us. And so I think they do a very interesting like 649 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:25.639 back and forth there of having both kids who want to go to war and 650 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:29.880 the adults are saying no, But for the Avatar, they're not only okay 651 00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.079 with it, they're telling him he has to do this, when at first 652 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:35.440 he kind of just wants to be a kid. He wants to just go 653 00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.800 off and like do sledding games with the penguins and other things that look really 654 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.199 fun. But everyone around him is like, no, you're the Avatar, 655 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:49.360 you have to fight. Yeah. I mean a lot of these fictions present 656 00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:53.519 the protagonist as a chosen one, right, like the avatar is literally the 657 00:49:53.559 --> 00:50:00.280 only one who has all the four elemental powers in this universe, and some 658 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:06.880 of these other ones, like the Last star Fighter, the protagonist scores the 659 00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.280 highest on the video game, like he achieves the high score and that's what 660 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:15.159 leads to him being recruited, so he's like exceptional at this craft. And 661 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:21.440 then in like a lot of the gun dams like that, the child literally 662 00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:25.400 sometimes like falls into the mobile suits and starts fighting and it's like, oh, 663 00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:30.760 like you you are better at this than any of the adults. And 664 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:36.239 they coin a term new type for like this special maybe psychic ability that some 665 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:42.679 of these kids have. So yeah, like I don't I don't know what 666 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:47.480 the deal deal do with that, because Katara and Sokka are just kids, 667 00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:53.719 right, And that's to me, that's separate from the Ang the avatar, 668 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:59.679 who is literally the only one, And I don't know, like how you 669 00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:04.760 treat that, Like he's also a kid, but he has magical superpowers, 670 00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:07.840 so yeah in this universe, yes, I guess he has to do this 671 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:16.480 because he's he's you know, element superpower guy. Yeah, yeah, like 672 00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:21.320 there and they do. And in fairness, there are some adults who are 673 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:25.119 saying, like, you have the avatar power from a young age, but 674 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:30.079 you shouldn't actually be the avatar until you become an adult. Oh yeah, 675 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:32.039 but that we're in this like weird situation where you have to but like, 676 00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.760 to me, it feels like this would like in some ways, yeah, 677 00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:43.960 I to me for me, in some ways, the child soldier recruitment isn't 678 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.960 necessarily saying Aang, you have to do this, although I think is problematic, 679 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:52.760 to be sure, but it's also whatever system was created that puts this 680 00:51:52.840 --> 00:52:00.480 power into young kids because I find it hard to believe that every time an 681 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.000 avatar dies, and so now everyone knows that some like ten year old is 682 00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.880 now the Avatar, all the bad people in the world are just gonna say, 683 00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.079 you know what, We're gonna wait eight years to try and conquer the 684 00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:14.199 world because it's not fair to have a child avatar have to fight us, 685 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:16.480 So we're gonna wait. Like I would imagine lots of times people would be 686 00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:20.719 like, oh cool, the Avatar is only eleven, Like doors are open, 687 00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.480 let's go, let's do all the bad stuff. Yeah. The beginning 688 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:28.960 of the war, the Fire Nation does their sneak attack on the Air Temple 689 00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:36.280 the Air Nomads to try to eliminate the Avatar for ten to twenty years or 690 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.880 you know however long it takes, right, Like that's their plan, is 691 00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:45.840 a sneak attack to get rid of the Avatar so that they can execute their 692 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:52.360 war, Yeah, without interference. Paul also says Katana and Soccer are also 693 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.599 kids who lost a lot to the war and decided on their own to get 694 00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:59.000 involved, which feel fundamentally different from being recruited as a child soldier. Recruited 695 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:00.239 as a soldier, which, yeah, I was saying a little bit about 696 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:04.079 that at the beginning, but I think that he's saying it even better. 697 00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:07.800 You know that those two are in such a different place, and like, 698 00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:09.239 I don't love that they want to fight, but I also feel like, 699 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.239 you know, again, that happens in their own world all the time, 700 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:17.920 you know, like in places where people are oppressed, in Northern Ireland, 701 00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:22.519 in Palestine, in all over the world. I imagine in the Ukraine, 702 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.559 like they're sixteen year olds who are running off to forward twelve. You know, 703 00:53:24.559 --> 00:53:28.239 people a much younger who are running off to fight because they see their 704 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:31.400 own families being killed, their own home being destroyed. And I hope that 705 00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:36.280 the adults can often be like, this isn't a great idea, but also 706 00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:40.920 I do think it's like a fundamentally different but sometimes maybe they in the shows, 707 00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.800 I think they often become great soldiers. And again maybe like I don't 708 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.599 want to say, like again, that's something magical happens in the day you 709 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:51.400 turn nineteen and now it's okay for you to go kill people, but not 710 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.559 when you're seventeen and three hundred and sixty days old. Like it's a big 711 00:53:54.559 --> 00:54:00.760 gray mass, and like you like coming up with rules for when war and 712 00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:05.480 soldiers are okay feels ridiculous because I think none of it's ever okay. But 713 00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:07.360 yeah, I think that's kind of the point, is that the when you're 714 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.800 running off to join your own and you haven't been propagandized in the same way, 715 00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:15.559 that that feels very different. But these rules exist now, like this 716 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:22.079 is international law and you have to, like if you've signed up for this, 717 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:27.000 which you know most of the nations have, you have to follow international 718 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:34.480 law. Like that's like that's how laws work, right, And we talk 719 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:40.159 about go ahead, go ahead, like I want to hear. I feel 720 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:46.280 like for me, I like I do want there to be ruled. I 721 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:50.800 don't want there be any war at all. I think there being rules of 722 00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:55.400 war is a really double edged sword because on the one hand, yeah, 723 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:59.639 like if you have to have war, make it less brutal as possible, 724 00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:02.000 like you killing soldiers better than killing civilians, you know, et cetera, 725 00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:07.400 et cetera. But also I feel like there's a danger and I think we 726 00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:09.920 very much saw this in the nineteenth century and early twentieth century in this country, 727 00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:14.719 where there's this idea of that because there are so many rules to war 728 00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:20.519 and the war therefore is almost this gentlemanly act that it's okay. And I 729 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:25.559 think in a situation where all sides are following the rules, then I think 730 00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:30.519 I agree with you. But a lot of the situations I just mentioned you 731 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:36.000 have oppressors that are breaking the Geneva Conventions left, right and center. You 732 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.440 know, I don't think anyone is going to look at what Russia is doing 733 00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:40.199 in Ukraine and say, like, oh, yeah, there's no war crimes 734 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:44.760 being committed, and like, you know, I certainly have my opinions about 735 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:49.719 how many war crimes being committed in Palestine by the IOF these really offensive force 736 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:52.239 and others of this agree and I understand that. But you know, you 737 00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:55.360 can look at Northern Ireland, you can look at India, Pakistan, you 738 00:55:55.360 --> 00:56:01.679 can look at like all these different situations around the world where if I'm sixteen 739 00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:10.840 years old and soldiers are coming to my town and killing my family and more 740 00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.360 of my friends and my family, and they are coming to destroy my home 741 00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:19.719 and my friends, if I pick up a gun to fight these people who 742 00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.679 are attacking us at fourteen, fifteen sixteen, I don't think that's great for 743 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:27.199 me. But I'm not going to blame the adult soldier who's like, hey, 744 00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:29.119 kid, here's some more AMMO. Please, you know, come join 745 00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:31.079 me right here. I'm going to blame the people who attacked me, who 746 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.320 put me into a situation where I had to become a soldier. Does that 747 00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.079 make sense? Like I don't think they should have to be, but I 748 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:42.559 think, like in a situation where you're getting close to being existentially wiped out 749 00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:46.639 or overrun, I don't want them to ever try and get children to be 750 00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:52.840 soldiers. But if people on the front lines in Ukraine are not like checking 751 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:58.239 IDs when youngish looking people show up and say I'm eighteen, that's low on 752 00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:00.880 my list of the ethical problem I see happening in Ukraine. If that matters, 753 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:07.280 If that makes sense, I understand what you're saying, and I think 754 00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:13.920 there are different lines here, like in a in an active combat situation like 755 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:19.159 you're talking about, like soldiers are coming through my streets and shooting people like 756 00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.599 and I'm a kid, and I pick up one of these guns and shoot 757 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:28.559 back, Like to my understanding, like that is not a war crime, 758 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:34.559 Like that's just active combat like stuff happens, right, I think what the 759 00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:40.000 Geneva conventions are saying is like if that kid comes to like their nation's army 760 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:45.000 camp with their gun, yeah, like you have to take reasonable I think 761 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:52.079 it uses language like reasonable measures to not have them continue in active combat. 762 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:55.800 And as to your point of like checking ID and stuff like, yeah, 763 00:57:55.840 --> 00:58:04.039 like there's a long history of people faking their age to join the military, 764 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.880 and it happens, And I think all all it's saying is like you have 765 00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.320 to be reasonable about it, Like you have to try to take measures to 766 00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:19.920 have kids avoid being in these situations, right, And I don't know that 767 00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:24.440 we can do better than that, because war is a mass, complex confusion, 768 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:30.079 right Yeah, yeah, No, I think that's fair, And I 769 00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:32.239 guess I guess what I'm saying is like, do I think it's a bad 770 00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:37.159 thing for kids to ever be picking up guns and fighting? Yes, But 771 00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:44.280 like if the Russian invading army has sixteen year olds in it and the Ukrainian 772 00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:49.079 army has sixteen year olds in it, technically I think both are bad and 773 00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:52.840 both are probably violations of the Geneva Convention. But I'm much more concerned about 774 00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:57.599 the Russians and if the Ukrainian is like they never get around prosecuting whatever Ukrainian 775 00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:00.559 lieutenant was like, I can't believe we're doing this, but we need every 776 00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:04.119 gun right now. So yeah, I'm not gonna send you home. Like 777 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:07.800 I'm okay with that. That's kind of what I'm saying. It's kind of 778 00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:13.920 like, I I hate that we ever have these needs for violence, but 779 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:17.199 I think that when you are the group that's being attacked, when you are 780 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:22.119 the group that's being oppressed, I don't want you actively seeking out kids. 781 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:29.280 But I'm I'm more sympathetic to war as hell, and we had to do 782 00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:34.519 this. So here here's here's where I see. What you're saying is that 783 00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:43.440 is the invader Russia has built up their army and recruited and planned and trained 784 00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:50.400 soldiers, right and it's defenders. You are often like not at the luxury 785 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.519 of doing that. You're you're just kind of like using the best of what 786 00:59:53.559 --> 00:59:59.280 you got. Yeah, But what I will say is like, so in 787 00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:05.519 my research, like the Geneva Conventions, there's a newer Ish provision called the 788 01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:09.360 Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Involvement of 789 01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:15.079 Children in Armed Conflict. Okay, that's a mouthful. It's shortened to oh, 790 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:21.960 pack the optional protocol it's often called. And this was like trying to 791 01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:27.119 draw a harder line of you know, the arbitrary line of eighteen years and 792 01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:34.239 eighteen years old and trying to say, like you, you cannot even recruit 793 01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:39.440 people until they are eighteen. You think that they wanted to draw this part 794 01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:43.960 line of eighteen years, like you can't even recruit people younger than eighteen, 795 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:50.159 and I think I think that's reasonable, and which I would just say, 796 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:53.440 I think should make the call of duty games being specifically dined as like future 797 01:00:53.480 --> 01:01:00.760 recruitment CRUs or crimes but go on or at least a violation. I like 798 01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:05.719 war crimes as a probably a parder line. But we're talking like difference between 799 01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:10.400 like felonies and misdemeanors. Again, we're not lawyers here, but what I 800 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:16.079 want to point out is that I'm looking at the Wikipedia page for the OH 801 01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:22.320 back in the final negotiations, only five states still advocated against the straight eighteen 802 01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:30.079 principle Egypt, Kuwait, Singapore, the United Kingdom, and most Trenchantly. 803 01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:37.079 And this is the words they use the United States of America. And to 804 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:43.760 me, like you when you open this discussion, like you talked about Africa, 805 01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:49.280 right, And I think that like when you mentioned child soldiers to people, 806 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:53.280 that is an image they get of like a kid, a black kid 807 01:01:53.320 --> 01:02:00.519 in Africa holding an AK forty seven, And that's just media propaganda. So 808 01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:04.960 to speak like that is a it happens, Like I'm not saying it doesn't 809 01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:07.719 happen because someone took that picture, right, why was that kid holding a 810 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:13.760 gun? But when it comes down to the international law and the rules, 811 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:15.320 like the US is like no, no, no, we want to keep 812 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:21.320 recruiting, like we want to have these video game players like be able to 813 01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:24.000 join the army, and there are like now, there are rules, and 814 01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:29.639 I think it has to do with like with parental consent, et cetera. 815 01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:35.679 But but it's it's a mess. It's a huge mess, and I think 816 01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:39.679 we have to get over this idea. Frankly, like I think it's the 817 01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:46.239 racist idea that has been embedded in our news cycles and in our propaganda that 818 01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:51.960 this is like a quote unquote African problem. Yeah. No, I fully 819 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.760 agree with that, And I hope I said something about that earlier. I 820 01:02:53.800 --> 01:02:57.480 think I did, but if I'd not, part of why frondering up the 821 01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:00.000 African situation is like I think that's what's in most people heads, but like, 822 01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:04.199 yeah, I think it happens in all its even and that's what I 823 01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:07.199 also said, Like when you talk about even like gangs, it's not just 824 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:12.119 black kids by any means, or Latino kids or other kids of color. 825 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:16.199 I would argue that when like teenagers who have read lots of you know, 826 01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.039 right wing propaganda and go and shoot up schools or churches or things like that 827 01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:25.639 and leave racist messages, those are child soldiers who've been recruited, like I 828 01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:29.599 would there, and those are almost all white kids, like I would put 829 01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:32.320 them in the child soldier category absolutely, So yeah, I think that's really 830 01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:37.280 important, is that, like the African situation has gets the most attention, 831 01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:42.079 and I think in some cases like it's the most viscerally obvious, but it 832 01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:44.800 is actually happening in all sorts of parts of the world and has happened all 833 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:49.199 sorts of parts of the world. Like I love the Ken Burns documentary, 834 01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:52.960 but it often talks about how, you know, like the heroism of these 835 01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:57.639 kids who ran off and said they were eighteen and no one bothered to check, 836 01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:00.800 and there's a sort of like and because he has in a lot of 837 01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:02.599 like movies about like World War two or Civil War, there's kind of a 838 01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:05.679 nudge and a wink of like, well, you shouldn't be here, but 839 01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:10.239 you're so awesomely patriotic and wonderful that you want to sign up at fourteen that 840 01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:14.480 like we're still gonna call you a hero, you know, So, yeah, 841 01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:20.000 the ulta mentions. According to Child Soldiers International, the UK deployed twenty 842 01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:26.960 two armed forces personnel aged under eighteen to Iraq in Afghanistan between two thousand and 843 01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:31.199 three and twenty ten. And that's that's for armed forces personnel under eighteen. 844 01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:35.039 So we're not even talking about just just the recruiting, like they sent them 845 01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:42.119 into combat zones under the age of eighteen, and again like did these kids 846 01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:47.039 possibly lie about their age? Yes, but again we're not talking about This 847 01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:53.719 is not the confusion of war like in an active combat like oh we don't 848 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:57.800 want to you know, ID check this kid in the middle of a battle. 849 01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:01.679 This is like you sent them from your nation to another nation, like 850 01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:05.559 you should have done your due diligence. Yeah, and that's I think, 851 01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:12.480 like, you know, there's no battles happening on the literal streets of the 852 01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:15.639 United Kingdom or the United States of America. There have been attacks, but 853 01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:18.599 nothing I think that raises the kind of existential threat that I'm talking about in 854 01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:26.079 advice like Ukraine. And yeah, so I think that I'm not surprised because 855 01:05:26.119 --> 01:05:29.039 a given the timing, I think it was probably under Trump that the US 856 01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:32.119 was so trenchant about it. But I'm guessing that Biden and whoever came before 857 01:05:32.159 --> 01:05:34.719 him, however comes after him, would be just a strenchent because God bless 858 01:05:34.760 --> 01:05:41.960 the USA. But yeah, you're talking about the Opak No, because Opak 859 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.599 was like, it's actually I think eighteen years old at least now, so 860 01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:50.159 that the last couple of years, Okay, that makes sense. I guess 861 01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:54.400 there is so much more recent to Geneva. So anyway, we're getting pretty 862 01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:56.320 deep in illegal ease here, and as you said, you know, we're 863 01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:59.840 up without lawyers. But I think this is good discussions and fans would love 864 01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:02.199 to You've got to say, as long as you can find all the ways 865 01:06:02.239 --> 01:06:06.760 to contact us on the apical panea dot com, please do that we hear 866 01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:12.960 any last comments you want to make. We didn't even we didn't even get 867 01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:16.519 to Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is I'm in the middle of watching right now. 868 01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:21.400 I had to stop watching because it was so emotionally devastating to me one 869 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:28.360 of the episodes, because this one, not only are they kids they're piloting 870 01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:32.320 meccas, but the the EVAs, the meccas they use in this universe, 871 01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:40.119 like, are somehow psychically connected to the kids and respond emotionally to them, 872 01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:45.239 sometimes like subconsciously. So it is much more than just like kids piloting machines, 873 01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:53.159 like they respond to their emotions. And part of the reason this show 874 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:59.360 is devastating is because the person who is in charge of this program is the 875 01:06:59.400 --> 01:07:04.119 protagon father, like literal father, and you know, we talk about like 876 01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:12.079 these how adults need to responsible, and this is just like I understand why 877 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:17.000 this is so beloved because the questions that brings up and the psychic damage it 878 01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:24.920 does to the audience and obviously to the characters is quite severe. It is 879 01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:29.920 a really good anime. I'm looking forward to finishing it eventually, but I 880 01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:33.639 needed a break because it was just one episode that broke the main character and 881 01:07:34.079 --> 01:07:39.920 broke me. So I look forward to finishing it. But oh my gosh, 882 01:07:40.440 --> 01:07:44.280 yeah, I definitely want to watch it maybe, and I've gotten a 883 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:46.079 couple of like small season kicks of things, but I think it's definitely on 884 01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:48.840 our list to watch, so we will definitely do an episode about it at 885 01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:51.679 some point soon. Well, did you. Thank you so much for bringing 886 01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:55.039 on this topic. Thank you Jared for helping to push us towards as well. 887 01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:57.960 It's one we're gonna have a lot more to say about. We want 888 01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:02.360 so much feedback from uh the uh, We want so much more feedback from 889 01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:04.840 our listeners and stuff like that. But we're gonna pause from now. We're 890 01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:08.880 gonna have some great bonus content about an idea about Star Wars that I've had. 891 01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:12.119 But for everybody else, thank you as much for tuning in. We 892 01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:12.960 have spoken to