Hmmm, hello and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host,
and we have an excellent guest. Uh. It's kind of a funny story
how I, uh, you know, got this connection. I was actually
at one of my son's improv uh you know, things that he does,
and someone asked, you know, they were participating with the audience and they
said, uh, they pointed at me and basically, you know, what
do you do for work? And I said, well, I'm an antiquappraiser,
art appraiser and I also do a show on UFOs and they're like,
oh goodies. So they really made some great skits with that. That if
I was a lot of fun. And afterwards one of the people in the
improv came up to me and said, hey, I think he said it
was his Well, Tom will tell me his son in law, daughter's son
in law's girlfriend's father does something on UFO something like that. Tom will correct
me and out in Colorado, and I said, oh, yeah, what's
that all about? So anyway ends up. I looked into him and it's
really fascinating the work that he does. And we're going to be talking about
that tonight and I will tell you for the first time I had something very
strange happen. His latency on his side is about thirty seconds, maybe even
more. So we had to drop to the phone line tonight, so he's
going to be on the phone. I do have some images to show.
But before we get started the blog this week with Charles Lear, and by
the way, anybody the audio and subscribing to YouTube all that it's all free.
So the audio blogs, Charles Lear puts a lot of work into them
every week and there's a lot of great information. And this week is the
first scientific UFO study and he talks about going back to the coin incident with
the helicopter and all the way back in the early times and when jay On
Heinik I was starting to look at the possibility scientifically of what these things might
be. So check that out. As every week we have a new blog
and new information for you. We also have a Facebook page with a lot
of people on that too, so you can get information that way too,
And Brock is over there helping out with that. Palmer helps out a lot
with a lot of information all the time. Phil helps out also, he's
a moderator and helps out with some information a lot, so we have a
lot of people working. Of course, our producer Donna does a wonderful job,
so I want to thank thank all those people that help out. I
don't say that enough. And I also want to thank everyone in chat for
being here live, all those who are viewing it live. And here's our
guest, Tom Kurran. Welcome to the show. Tom, Thanks Martin.
I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I'm glad you're here. We had
a little bit of a rough start. I thought we're going to have to
delay the show, so I'm glad. I'm glad we figured it out.
And yeah, you thought you we were having just a zoom problem, but
ended up being a little more than that. That's right. I didn't realize
it would tect this platform, so I'm sorry. Yeah, you may have
to. I'm not sure how the audio is coming through, but we'll I'll
talk with the UH with Chanelle to ask her how it sounds. But you
may have to get a little closer to your phone. I'm not sure it
should not be you know, it should not be not on speakerphone. It's
not going to work that way. Everyone, Okay, hold on, Yeah,
all right, So Tom, how is this I think that's better.
So Tom, let's hear how you get interested in this topic, and we're
going to talk about your you know, your website, all the work that
you've done in the last few years. What sparked your interest to begin with?
Well, when people used to ask me that, I talked about,
you know, my Well, first, I'm not an experiencer, but I
have a strong interest in this and also have experimented with a lot of paranormal
stuff. But when I used to answer that question, I would talk about,
you know, getting involved with Leslie Kine or something. But I realized
there's a deeper reason, which is my whole career. I've been interested in
paradigm shifts. I have a career as a business executive and you know,
one of my major clients we worked on the hospice paradigm for dying and integrated
healthcare. And I'm currently on the board of two nonprofits that are working to
change the structure and the incentives of the political system. And I think that
with this topic, once you cut through the misinformation, I think people will
discover that the UFO related issues pose really the biggest potential paradigm shifts of all.
So I think the first thing, I've been interested in paradigm shifts.
The second thing is, I think it's in my typology. I'm an enneagram
one, which is kind of a reformer in human design. I'm a manifesting
generator. I'm in my leadership development profile. I'm strategists, so I'm drawn
to understanding complex systems. So it's partially my typology. I think. The
other thing is I'm a lifelong seeker on post conventional stuff and have had a
series of psychological and esoteric influences and practices, you know, meditation and various
collective things, and a lot of time at a place called the Monroe Institute,
and my partnership with this guy Shawn Hoggins, you know. And finally,
I'm I'm really a left brain guy. You know. I'm a naval
officer, and I'm a strategy consultant from McKinsey and Company, and I've got
a lot of left brain training and tools about complexity. And so I think,
you know, my left brain orientation and my natural proclivity as a seeker,
and my typology all go to support my interest in paradigm shifts. And
I don't think there's anything figure out there than this one. Yeah, I
absolutely agree. And you know, the I was just having this conversation today
about this, and I belong to a strummers group. It's basically old guys
like myself playing guitar, and so anyway, I got to talking to one
of the people there and we got into the topic of UFOs because the group
kind of most of the group knows that I do this show, and I
did a talk here as well a little while ago. And you know,
basically he's saying, what is it with with people like this is something really
really important? And I don't understand how, you know, like when people
he made the reference he might be listening tonight actually, but he made the
reference like, wow, you know, so we may be we may have
someone on you know, aliens on the White House lawne what's for dinner?
He said, there's a lot of an attitude like that, and you know,
and that's true. There's a lot you know, most of the people
out there, you know, you have to survive, so you always he
was basically saying, we always have to come back to reality. He said,
even if it's a you know, if you're a fundamental fundamentalist, you
know, and some type of religion and it's everything to you. You still
have to come back to what are you going to buy for clothes or what
are you going to do for this or that, or what are you going
to eat? You know. So, yeah, I think it's a very
important topic and it keeps me going. Yeah, me too. I mean
it's interesting if you look at the survey research, you know, I think
it's a majority of people believe that there's intelligent life in the universe, and
even a substantial a proportion you know, things, you know, we're being
visited, but it's it's a very abstract thing, you know, methane on
Mars and oh, you know, maybe there's something out there somewhere sometime,
but it doesn't break through all the legitimate concerns and preoccupations people have, you
know, with their personal lives, much less you know, the global situation.
Right, yeah, oh, I know, you know when this was,
you know, in Congress last summer, I happened to be there,
which was really amazing, and but you know, I was just thinking,
there's so many things on the plate, so many things going on, you
know, wars, everything else, and like it really it kind of takes
a back seat to even though it would be such an amazing, you know,
revelation, it still kind of takes the back seat. And I understand
why when there's turmoil and all that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, So
I have to ask you, first of all, when you started, when
you took this on and started working on it and looking into it, did
you get any ridicule from any you know, fellows people that you work with,
or did you have any struggle in that type of way or are things
seem to be changing as far as that goes. I think they're changing.
I mean when I started, I've got two projects. You know, one
is the Implications Survey, which we released in January, and then the other
is a pretty comprehensive website which did about two and a half years ago.
And two and a half years ago, you know, when my friend,
another fellow consultant that works at a very high level, he kind of came
out of the closet and decided to reveal that, you know, this was
a big interest of his. And he was amazed about once he said that,
how many people really came forward and said, well, you know,
actually I had a sighting or I had an abduction experience or something like that.
So it's more, you know, I think it's more giving people permission
to say they're interested in that. And then on the other hand, you
know, I'm involved. I'm on some very high level boards with some conventional
people, and you know, I've kind of gone out on a limb and
you know, you know, maybe a little breakfast conversation at a conference,
said I'm interested in this, and they listen and they say, well,
you know, this is amazing. I haven't paid any attention to this,
but you're a smart analytical guy. So if you're on it, maybe,
you know, maybe I won't dismiss it out of hand. Right. I
remember I had a person that just saw Kevin Kanouth on my show here.
I just saw his name a minute ago here on your website, and he
said that he was going to these conferences, you know, years ago and
scientific conferences, and he said there was a guy there that kept talking about
earthquake lights and we were all saying the guy was nuts, and you know,
like this is just crazy, and then all of a sudden they discovered
there was actually something to it, and right he said, I want to
I'm going to be the UFO nut that's going to be on the ground floor
when when everything breaks. So, you know, I think that was that
was great that you know that he feels that way as a science person,
he's done quite a bit. So he's been a guest a few times and
he's a good guy looking into it, taking it seriously. Well, the
dam is slowly cracking in academia. You know, look at the Soul conference
and the people that we're speaking at that, yes, at Stanford University,
and but it's still it's still pretty much taboo. We as part of the
survey, we had two paragraphs where people had to choose which worldview was more
like them, and one was essentially what we would call the scientific materialist and
the other worldview was what we call expanded consciousness. You know that some things
can't be measured physically, but that are are true and real, and so
it's very hard to break out of the scientific materialist paradigm, right. And
one of the conversations I mentioned earlier that I was having with one of the
fellow strummers there was, you know, he basically said, well, I'm
a lifelong scientist, and you know, even though I had a sighting as
a nine year old and it was lights doing these unbelievable maneuvers, and no
one had an explanation for it. He goes, I don't think that,
he says, Yes, I do believe that there's civilization's out there, but
I don't think they can get here. And you know, I always have
an answer that you know, and it's kind of people that listen to the
show all the time, hear it over and over again. I'm sure,
but I think that, you know, there's more to be discovered in physics.
It's not like we always think we're on the crescendo and know everything.
But I always think there's more to know. And you know, there is
possibly the possibility of some type of space time manipulation. There must be.
But who knows exactly where and what these things are or if they're a combination
of things. That's that's the thing. We don't really know. If they're
from another world, we don't really know, if they're interdimensional. We don't
really know any of these things. We can only speculate. That's right,
And anybody that moves from something out there here's what it is. They're really
out on a limb and just speculating, as you say, yeah, yep,
But so I have to say, let's talk about your survey. What
was that about? Sure, Well, about a year ago we thought,
well, we wanted to do a what if experiment? So what if there
was an official recognition of the presence of non human intelligence and technology really embedded
here in planet Earth or on planet Earth? And it was some kind of
a credible announcement. It was the US President and other world leaders and accompanied
by you know, enough credible evidence that people actually were starting to grap with
the grapple with the implications. So that was our starting point. So we
had a panel of about fifteen people I could think it was last June,
and we have a variety of you know, very diverse panel, and we
brainstormed about or specifically one hundred and seventeen implications and you know, covering cultural,
technological, military, potential, deep state, you know everything. And
then we narrowed it down to forty four and launched a survey. And for
each of these forty four we had a scale how credible do you think this
implication is and how positive or negative is it? And and we had we
networked out and we had it. We we narrowed We got about nine hundred
responses, and we narrowed it down to four hundred and thirty four valid responses
as some people, many people didn't complete the survey. They just dropped out
right away. So it wasn't survey fatigue, it was they just weren't interested.
So anyway, on the sample of four hundred and thirty four people that
evaluated each of these implications as to positive or negative, how positive negative or
is it neutral? And how credible? And that's the basis for the report.
And I can segue into what we found, but that that was the
that was the basis of it. So four hundred and thirty five people.
You know, it's not ten thousand people, but it's more than anecdotal,
and yeah, so what we'll, yeah, go into it more if you
would. Sure. The biggest finding that rose to the top was the people.
One of the questions we asked was compared how involved are you in this
field? How much do you read about it, if you had an experience,
et cetera, compared to the average person, much more, somewhat more
about the same, much less, and very much less. And we found
the biggest difference was the people who followed this field. We call them the
no moors. Compared to the No Less it was night and day, just
night and day. So the people that didn't follow the field we asked,
we had an open text response, you know, just like name three words,
Name any three words and if you put those in a word cloud,
and you might post that in the notes, you know, the word cloud.
For the group that knew less, it was just all about fear,
chaos, uncertainty, just all negative with just a tiny little thread of you
know, well maybe it could be hopeful, and but it was. It
was overwhelmingly negative. And the group that reported that they followed this field more
closely, it was all about a transformation, excitement, hope, technology,
potential, shock, evolution, with a little bit of chaos and uncertainty.
So there were just totally different worldviews, I mean totally different implications. The
no More group basically found it transformational. The no Less group found it scary
and exciting. And then when we looked at the specific implications, the main
conclusion and the takeaway is that more knowledge leads to more positivity and less uncertainty.
Because the group that knew More could name eighteen items, and I can
go through the themes eighteen items that they thought were likely and positive. The
no Less group couldn't name a single thing that they thought was likely and positive.
Wow. And what's more, the no More group had an opinion on
over half of the forty four questions. The no less group, you know,
five percent of the questions they basically said, it's too uncertain. So
the people that hadn't been following it were uncertain and negative, and the people
that had been following it, you know, backing up the generalization about being
exciting and transformational, could name eighteen items that they thought were positive and exciting.
So that was the biggest difference, and that overrode distinctions among generations or
gender or country. That was really more knowledge is more knowledge of this field
is empowering, and so that's that's a great message for you know, arguing
that people would be less fearful and have more see more opportunity and possibility if
they at least stuck their toe in the water and started to learn about this
field. Right, And you know, I understand the unknown's always scary.
Of course it's totally unknown to us too, but at least, you know,
we're looking into what the possibilities are. I guess that's what it is
exploring the possibilities, and yeah, it makes I remember when I first told
my son, because I think it was like three or four years of doing
the show, and I never even told my son that I had a UFO
sighting, just because he was that type of thing scared him. You know,
anything like that scared him even you know, from very early age.
And you know, so eventually, you know, he started looking into it.
Now he's like, well, he's more comfortable. He doesn't want to
know too much. Now. I saw earlier and I do want to get
those eighteen items. But before that, I saw earlier up on your website
and I wanted to talk to you about it. Is this the abduction thing
was something I was quite nervous about talking about myself at first because I didn't
know what to think of it. And you know, I guess I have
to say. I'm looking at these the title here, and by the way,
this website is linked in the show notes and down below in the Texan
and YouTube here. But here's a list of fifteen abduction cases from nineteen sixty
four to two thousand and seven that meet objective criteria. What is that objective
criteria? So this is what Sean and I worked on, and so this
was something we created. So they're eight criteria and I'll tell you what they
are, and these fifteen cases, almost all of them meet at least six
of the eight criteria. So the criteria are, first, multiple abductees like
you know Betty Barney Hill, additional witnesses passed a lie detective test, passed
a psychologue evaluation, had some kind of body marks, there was additional physical
evidence. They had conscious recall, and they had hypnotic recall. And these
fifteen cases, as I say, almost all of them meet at least six
of those criteria. So you know, if you deconstructed and look at the
evidence, I mean, my gosh. You know, the standard for evidence
in a criminal trial is beyond a reasonable doubt, and in civil it's a
prepondence of evidence, or in a drug trial it's ninety five percent competence interval.
So you know, if you kind of get beyond the taboo and actually
look at what's going on, there's quite a lot. Oh yeah, that's
right. And you know some of these you have listed. You know,
I've talked directly with those people, and one of them might think is really
amazing of course as Travis Walton and Calvin Parker, who we just lost last
last year, was a great gentleman and he's one that I totally believe his
story along with Hickson. You know, the best part about that case is
when they had the tape recorder in the police office in the drawer in the
desk when they left them alone, so they had no idea that they were
being taped, and they were just talking back and forth, and I was
talking about how you know, Calvin was saying how scared he was and all
that Travis Walton talking to him off record, you know, hanging around with
him in a restaurant or whatever and having long discussions with him. I have
no doubt at all that Travis had, you know, that experience. It's
it's pretty amazing. And the Alligash the fore artists that we're buddies. I've
talked to two of them and I totally buy their story and it was very
a very interesting story. And I talked about that in detail in a podcast.
I did I believe that. Yeah, it was last week with no
more slavic about that particular case, but it's a fascinating one. Terry's been
on this yep, go ahead. Well, I think it's wonderful that you're
giving them a contemporary platform because some of these cases were decades and decades ago,
and you know, all fifteen of these cases, we have video and
or edited articles on all fifteen cases. You know, you can go to
the site and use a search function and you know, put in Travis or
Barney Hill or something. I mean, the you know, we've tried to
distill down in usually under five minutes, five to eight minutes, the essence
of the argument for each of these fifteen cases. Now, you had given
me some slides, and I don't know if we can. Is that anything
that you want to go through while we're we're talking. Yeah, sure,
And I can go through them whether you see them or not. We don't.
You don't need to see them. I can just talk them through,
all right, Should I do that? Well? Yeah, I mean,
if you're if you can start from the top. I know, you know
this is a little tricky because you're on the phone and not really seeing the
screen in front of you. So right now, what I have pulled up
is, uh, you know, the fear and uncertainty all that that the
first the first tile, and I don't know how I can expand that.
Yeah, no, I know what. So the first the first title I
covered verbally a little bit. That's a word cloud that shows the most common
words by the group that said they knew less about UPS and you can see
its fear, uncertainty, chaos, scary, et cetera. You can look
at the there's an iteration of the top ten words. And again these were
all open text responses. We didn't, we didn't, we didn't try to
private pump the next slide. Do you want to go to the next line?
Knowledge matters, Knowledge matters those who know more about UIPS, transformational technology,
enlightenment, hope, potential, exciting, uncertainty necessary. So there's the
difference in the attitudes. Then if you go to the next slide, that's
probably the one with the two pie charts. That's right. More knowledge,
more needs leads to more positivity and less uncertainty. So this is what you
know I reviewed earlier. The no more group sees eighteen items as lightly positive.
The no less group sees none. See no more group seize twenty two
out of the forty four its two uncertain rate. The no less group almost
all of them. Forty two out of forty four. So that's that.
Yeah, can you go while we're right here, can you I don't know
if you have it in front of you, but you said there were eighteen.
Can you talk about those positive eighteen things? Yes? I will so
the way I've done it. And this is the next set of slides.
If you want to go to theme number one, a shift in global awareness.
Okay, uh huh, yep, you're there. Yes. So the
takeaway and is that there are four positive themes, one on each slide,
one negative theme, and three uncertain themes. From the standpoint of the no
More group, there's no point asking the NOME relating to no less group because
they don't know anything, right, they're not. So the first positive theme
is a shift in global awareness and that comes from the survey implications We are
not alone. That narrative unites people. NHA message is take care of the
planet and this will trigger humanity to explore its deeper purpose. So we think
the first of the four positive implication groups is a shift in global awareness.
The second want to shift, I got it deeper engagements with NHI. Right,
So survey implications viewed as likely and positive. The UFO et taboo phades,
a broader acceptance of abductions, expanded NHI contact by humans, nhis decide
to become more visibly present, uh and uh. The No More group thinks
it's it's likely that the US Congress will verify recovered craft and bodies, and
they thought it was unlikely that NHI is going to help humanity with AI.
Hmm, okay, now I'm three. Yeah. The third positive theme on
the nuts and both side is a boost of science and technology. This comes
from increased investment in stem science, technology, engineering, math, a huge
investment in up related tech uh PSI goes mainstream, you know, enhanced intuition,
paranormal you know, all that stuff goes mainstream, and maybe some successful
reverse engineering. So that's the big boost of science and technology. Mhm.
The fourth and final positive theme, and this is one that's particularly exciting to
me, and the significant is expanding sensing and consciousness. Expanded human sensing,
recognition of interdimensional realities, integration of indigenous beliefs, emergence of mystical religions.
And this is really interesting, the interdependence of technology and consciousness and the cultural
renaissance. So those are all the positive themes. Okay, just while we're
right here, what is exactly what exactly does that mean? The interdependence of
technology and consciousness transformation? All of these are just headlines, So we didn't
say the independence of technology and consciousness. We had you know, a little
brief paragraph about it, but it would be you know, there's speculation about
the UAP craft being you know, integrated with the consciousness of the pilot.
Yes. Uh, there's the common abduction experience of you know, direct mind
to mind communication, so you know, all of these types of things that
we can't really separate those two mm hmm right, Okay, I got it.
So so that's uh. And then but we go to theme five,
right, yeah, but it's not all roses. So, uh, the
headline is many people will remain disengaged, other hostile. So we this group,
you know, and I would include myself in the no more group.
People will tune out. Uh, there will be increasing widespread video hoaxes.
Uh A NHI will be demonized by religious extremes, so extremist groups misinformation hox
hoax's initial skepticism and disengagement. That's probably also a likely part of the mix.
Interesting, Yeah, okay, and uh, you know, before we
before we just move on, there there is a you know, I mean,
I don't know if you've heard about this, but there's a number of
people that are actually talking about uh, they're thinking there there's demons involved,
you know. Uh. And I don't know how much you looked into that,
you know. I remember even alu Elo Zando said, you know,
someone to pay grade above his when he was working, you know, at
the Pentagon basically said that they thought the whole thing was demonic and which is
really quite interesting that and I think, you know, there's like, for
instance, when the aerial school incident happened back in nineteen ninety four, I
remember one of the children said that when she went home and told her mother
that her mother thought it was demons. And you know, I mean,
that does seem to come up that I think when something's unexplainable, that's kind
of a go to you know, I'm not sure if that's it or not,
but still, yeah, well that's one of the that's a good segue
into the theme six. What's uncertain is NHI intentions and capabilities we don't know,
and it's probably a mix. So for example, the No More group
say. We can't say that NHIS will be found to be found to be
non violent. We can't say whether they'll provide technology to help us. We
can't say that technology will lead to global solutions. We can't say that there'll
be free energy, you know. We can't say that there'll be increased study
of crop circles, although I think that should have made it in. We
don't know whether hybrids are around and will participate in disclosure. We don't know
whether they'll be indifferent to humanity. We don't know whether it be traumatic encounters
with NHI, and we certainly don't know what they are and what their motivations
are. So this is just like a huge area of uncertainty right right,
Okay, I'm on to THEAM seven. Now. Them seven is will the
secret agenda of the National security State succeed? So we don't know whether the
deep state will continue to control the narrative. We don't know whether secret defense
programs will continue to be successfully protected. Here's a big one. We don't
know if the if there's elements of the military rogue military elements are colluding with
NHI. On the positive side, we don't know if there's going to be
a backlash about against the Deep State. But most of this stuff uncertainty around
the deep state is negative stuff. Will they continue to control the narrative?
Will these programs be protected? You know? And even further out, is
there some kind of active collusion going on for narrow purposes? Right? I
should just say one more time for those people that are listening to the audio,
that this whole slide show will be in the show notes. You can
get to it and you can click through it and read, you know,
in more detail. There's a lot of detail on these slides that you can
go through and read for certain So so do check that out when you just
click on the show notes down below the audio and it'll take you there.
Okay, so now we're moving on to how to the end. So we've
we've gone through four positives. We've gone through the negatives and the uncertainties,
which is you know, NHI, their capabilities and intentions, the deep state,
and the final part is social impact. So there's some positive stuff.
You know, humanity could honor its galactic history, we could enact treaties to
reduce nuclear weapons. Maybe the UN or the Vatican will take a leadership role.
All those things are viewed as positive, but they're not certain enough.
And then the negatives on the social impact is disclosure, fractures society, worsening
in the qualities lead to social revote, hybrid witch hunts, the rich get
richer, the stock market collapses, and there's a decline in state sovereignty.
So you know, there's a lot, there's there's those fourteen positives, but
there's also these uncertainties that would prove to be pivotal. Mm hmmm h So
that's basically the Yeah, yeah, that's basically the end of all that.
That's really good stuff. Thank you. Yeah. The people that have participated
in this survey and hear this stuff, it's like, you know, wow,
I didn't really think there were so many potential implications, right right.
So we have a couple of questions. I'm gonna I'm gonna uh and please
put your your questions in caps. I see one up here from doctor Richard
that's on quite a bit. Let's see, I'm just putting a note up
here. Okay, so let me get to that first, and what's the
proof that well, let me just hanging on, hang on just a second
here, let me get that up there what's the proof that we certainly don't
know what they are and what their motives are. I'm trying to understand that,
what is the proof we certainly don't know? Oh, what is the
proof? That's the question. I guess we certainly don't know what they are
or what their motives are. So I don't know if you're really trying to
say any proof, are you? No? I mean there's a variety of
views within the UFO community, in the UFO bubble, if I can call
it that, and there's a wide variety of views from absolute certainty as to
what they are to you know, people that say we don't know, and
so I don't have a proof that we don't know what they are. I
just have not seen anything. You know. This whole thing is a good
attitude I've found is to take things seriously but hold them lightly. Right.
So, you know, I'm not promoting videos about UFO bases under Antarctica,
but there could be you know, well what if we take that seriously,
you know, but also hold it lightly because there are just so many possibilities.
So that's that's my attitude of if somebody thinks they know what they are
and knows what their motives are. And you know, I think it's very
likely we're dealing with a wide variety of phenomena, a very wide variety of
phenomena. We're reacting in different ways, and you know, I'm interested in
people that have different theories about that. But I also hold it lightly the
data I just reviewed. You know, it's not the King's James Libel.
It's just you know, a survey of four hundred and thirty four people and
highlighting the implications that you know, met a confidence level threshold and of positivity
and likelihood by this group. Here's another question that someone posted up there as
a fan of conceptual modeling. I would like to know if in your research
you have put yourself in Nhi's place, right, or what the downside of
contact for their side? What would be I think that's trying to say what
would be the downside of contact on their side? Is it safer to hide?
Yeah? I don't know. Yeah. I mean one of the uncertainties
is as we become more open and welcoming, will they respond in kind?
I mean, there'd be certainly, you know, on our side, as
we become more opening and welcoming, there'll certainly be a lot of healing to
be done among contact experiencers that have been shunned, you know, by their
friends and family. And so there'd be a lot of dynamics on our side,
what will happen on their side? I mean, there's many people that
you know, think that it's a co created process. The more welcoming we
become and the more let's just say, sophisticated in our understanding of our reality,
the more they might reach out to us. But I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, you know, if you there's a question that comes
up a lot, and I may have talked about it fairly recently, but
you know, I get a lot of people that asked me this question is,
well, you know, if they didn't want us to see them,
why would they have lights? You know, why would so many of them
have lights? Not all of them, but a lot of them do,
right, And so and you know, I've had people theorize that the lights
have something to do with the propulsion or you know, just maybe a safety
measure like like we have on our you know, airplanes. I don't know,
but I mean that's it's kind of like whatever they are, the vehicles,
you know, we there's so many witnesses of seeing them that you know,
we know that they're here. It's you know, when people ask me
if I believe in UFOs, that said, well, it's nothing to say
that I believe, because there's definitely enough data that to say there are unknown
objects and flying through our sky. Many people have seen them and witness them,
and that have been totally unexplainable. Most of them are explainable, but
there are some proportion of that percentage are not explainable. And and so it's
not whether you believe, it's just what are they? That's the question,
you know, that's the question we were asking, is we you know,
the mystery of it all? I you know, I think if you look
at paradigm shifting events, you know, there's something called a black swan,
which is so it's a single thing, but it's so decisive it brings in
a new paradigm, you know, like uh, you know, a skeleton
an anthropology, or the discovery of HIV virus that wasn't known previously. You
know, there's these one things and to me, the nimics TikTok Tac event
is a black swan. You know, if you look into that and apparently
arrow and Sean Kirkpatrick Hasn't you know you only need that one, You only
need one thing that changes your paradigm. Yeah, there's more than one out
there. It's like a trial. I'm always you know, people, it's
like a murder trial where you don't have the body, but you've got the
DNA and you've got the evidence. You know, you have the motive and
you have witnesses. But where's the body. Where's the body? And so
people, you know, until they see the body, until they know something
can travel faster than they speed of light, or it's on the White House
lawn or whatever it is, you know, so they're looking at the evidence
that isn't there, rather than the evidence that is there. And if you
look objectively, the evidence that is there, you know meets exceeds our normal
standards of proof. So I guess I want to ask you this question.
You know, we're only times flying by here and kg RA has a show
coming up, and I think it's seven minutes or so, So I guess
I want to ask you what is the most surprising thing? Because you started
really looking into this really on a deep level. I believe you said about
three years ago or something like that. So I wanted to know what is
the most surprising thing that you uncovered or that you just had no idea about.
Well, the most surprising finding from the survey is that more knowledge leads
to more possibility and more empowerment. You know. That's that's that's really significant
because that supports the narrative of looking objectively at the other I think the most
interesting thing and profound thing is the recognition that, look, there have been
paradigm shifts in the in the past, like you know, continental drift.
A century ago, continental drift was ridiculed impossible, mountains don't move, et
cetera. Then we developed in the nineteen fifties the theory of teutonic plates,
and you know, by the nineteen seventies it was a new reality. And
so but that was one thing, or even a Copernicus that was one thing.
This isn't one thing. This is a set of things that challenges our
core notions of reality. What it means to be human, the soliity of
the nation state, the authority of religions, the range of species involved in
their motivations, even the possible presence of hybrids. On that place, it
certainly and upheople in the sciences, and scarily even possible existing military collaborations with
NHI. So it's almost like one trap door opening after another dropping through the
rabbit hole. And it's not just one thing. It's it's profound and it
would take a long time to digest and have a lot of implications in this
survey probably just skims the service of what those might be, right, And
you know, I think it's kind of you know, we have this little
show going on. It does get out to quite a few people audio in
the audio, but still I don't think a lot of people realize the fact
that, you know, that the topic has never come up before on my
show. That more knowledge, you know, leaves leads to more positive,
you know, insight in this. I just think that no one's ever actually,
you know, looked at that before or or done any on that before.
Yeah, well, we have the individual abduction experience and you're I'm sure
you're very familiar with that that that can be pretty rough. But the end,
in the end, it's got a lot of similarities to a near death
experience, you know, or shamanic initiation. You go through it and you're
a different person, right, You know, you're more loving, you're more
capacity, uh compassionate, you have different skills. You're probably screwing up the
electronics in your house, you know, but you're you know, it's it's
like an it's like an NDE. So we have that at the individual level.
And I mean the interesting thing, and the site is organized around this
thing. This thing is so broad. I mean, there's a whole world
of flying objects, and there's the whole world of hard science, you know,
meta materials and stuff, and then there's and and you know, esoteric
science and retrievals, and then there's a whole world of direct experience. Then
there's a whole world of institutional dynamics, religion, Hollywood, national security,
state, you know, media coverage, all of these things. It's so
broad and generally, as you I think, no, the community tends to
be, you know, pretty segmented. The Soul Conference at Stanford, as
great as it was, it didn't touch on direct experience. Right, So
hang on, just second rate here, I got to get a note to
Chanel just letting well, I can tell it Chanelle, you know, just
he's on the phone. So we're going to we will have to end the
show when you have to jump off. So but anyway, going back to
the someone just posted a question here I thought was kind of interesting, and
let me get to that and pull that up. Hang on, okay,
so what does a double slit experiment mean for the human experience? That basically,
if I remember right, the double slit experiment has to do with white
being a wave and a photon at the same time. You know, I
don't know exactly what that means for the human experience. I mean, there's
so many things like entanglement and all that. It just has it just has
a to me, it has a meaning of just that we know so little
about what he's really going on. That's the way particle thing. Well,
one of these One of the fascinating things about this phenomena is it crosses over
the great divide between the physical and the non physical. So as John Mack
has really well articulated, and we've got a video on this from his speech
at institutent Nerudic Sciences. You know, there's the physical, but what happens
when things appear and disappear? You know, people see them and then they
don't see them. Some people see them, other people don't. They on
the radar track then they disappear, you know, So we don't have things
at crossover. I mean, we have the world of scientific materialism and the
science can handle that, and then we have the kind of metaphysical world that
you know, if you're a psychologist, you're you know, a spiritual person,
you can talk about that. But what happens when you have these phenomenas
that cross over you know, you know, it's it's very you know,
like a near death experience. They're crossing over between realms. So it's a
whole mind blowing potential expansion of reality and especially who we are. I mean,
ultimately, it's not about who ets are, It's about who we are
with our unrealized human potential. Right well, Tom, I can't believe it.
We ate up the time already. So it's been a real pleasure,
and I like, I like the way you think. I think I told
you that when I started looking through your uh, you know, your your
website and something you sent me, uh basically the slide show or something similar,
and I just saw that you had Jonathan Wygan on. It's someone that
I've interviewed a couple of times, and he's only had a couple of interviews
in his life. And by the way, for those who listen to the
show, he says no more. He's not going to do it any longer
ever. Again that's his Uh, that's what he said, and I think
it. I'm not sure exactly what got him upset, but uh, it
could be feedback or something, who knows. But anyway, thank you very
much, Tom. I really appreciate it. We have to we have to
go, all right, take take take care, all right everyone. So
we'll be back next week with a good friend, uh Mary Anne Rob and
she'll be with Dave Rich together and we'll have her on next week. Thanks
so much everyone, and we will see you next week. And I'm just
looking for my outro here and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.