Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Modern Outdoor Survival. And this
time we have slightly poor audio quality than normal because we're in a cottage somewhere
in the western Highlands of Scotland, and I didn't want to bring the whole
audio kit with me, so I'm afraid you're going to have to make do
with a combination of phones and a small pocket recording device thing and sat around
the table with me. I have three friends and we've just come back from
a place called Neudart, which is a peninsula which is about well, it's
an hour away from here to get to where the boat picks you up from,
and then it's another half hour on the boat to the peninsula. It
is attached to the British mainland, but there are antony roads there and once
you leave the village where the boat drops you off, I think it's another
twenty miles before you hit the nearest road. So we went there for a
bit of an excursion, some stomping around in the mountains. It was a
golden opportunity allowed by the gracious generosity of Dave, whose work managed to get
a holy cottage booked for the right place at the right time with some extra
days and we could use it as a base to move up from. And
then some things came together and we ended up here. So in the spirit
of the podcast, I wanted to talk about or go through, some of
the things you learned from the trip, some of the decisions you made,
some of the kit you took, some of the root choices you made,
and what you think the audience can learn from that, because I think,
as we say, a lot, you learn more from the mistakes really than
you do from the Fluke successes. But sometimes the accumulation of all those mistakes
and the learning points ends up in something actually going well. But you know
it went well because of the choices you made. So to my left,
and it'll be speaking first, because we'll have to take it in terms because
of the audio recorder thing we've got. Alistair. Alisair was on the show
about a year and a half ago. I think something like that. You
would talk to Ham and what we're talking about something, So, Alistair,
what did you take for our trip? What did you learn? What did
I take? In terms of hole? So are we talking or just go
nuts? Go nuts? Okay? So I was later addition, I would
say to the to the Greek Plans, and I took a fairly lightweight packing
system. I wanted to go as fairly faster than light as I could based
on initial feelings of what my fitness was and the terrain that we might be
covering. And from on that I went a little bit mad by the lightweight
gear. I wanted comfort at night, that was my decision making process.
But during the day I wanted to to basically be able to move fast,
so I opted for trail runners, but also conversely are really nice, you
know, eight centimeter thick, higher value sleeping pad at the other end of
the situation, and then various packing things. You know, I kind of
I weighed out my gear, sort of use pat light to help whittle down
things. That's the website. The website that you can you can input various
gear things to tell your your selections between sleep gear and cooking gear and so
on. It gives you a lovely pie chot. We'll put a link to
that in the bio of the podcast. Yes or a will, cause I
won't, so we're doing it well. And then yeah, a lot of
a lot of chats with Rich about food selection because obviously at that point the
number of days and things were unknown to me. It was do you want
to come up to Scotland? Yes? Where we go? Not quite all?
NOI art, do we know a route? No? You need to
eat though, you know? Yes, so I plan meals and my takeaways
post trip are weirdly enough of my gear selections. I was happy with most
things. There was a broken part on a set of gators that I wanted
to bring, which caused them to be left behind, so I was left
with trail running sort of anti rock little gator things, which proved, you
know, they were admirable in the situation to go as high as your socks
basically, yes, yes, they're literally there to stop rocks getting any your
shoes. That's it. They're not. They won't protected, you'll legs racking
or gorse or thistles or anything like that. So that was an annoyance before
you even left the Airbnb sort of thing. But by that point they were
already in the bag, so it was dead weight in the pack. And
then coming back afterwards, I've still got most of a food bag because I
took far too much food. I would say those are my two main negatives.
And then but actually on the train. My sort of fears over my
general fitness of doing some of the steeper, steeper train were unfounded. Actually,
I was quite happy with my overall fitness, surprised that my sort of
farm fit carried me through quite comfortably. Because you're a farmer on a fairly
steep farm. Soon anything at the top of the hill you have to do
about a thousand meters of thousand feet of ascent. Yes, yeah, there
is. There is a lot of walking involved when I'm not using our gate.
I think I wouldn't fit. You'd be if you had a second quad,
what I'd be like an arable farmer. Jesus have just switched off.
Sorry guys, Yeah, that's that's my initial takeaways. I think. You
know. We we originally set out for what good was it three nights total,
and we ended up doing some replanning during the route, so I didn't
get to test all my gear as well as I liked. But happy with
what performed well m hm, so yeah, and I very much enjoyed it.
Views were spectacular, as they've already alluded to early, but it's it
was a difficult to find a view I didn't like. Yes, yes,
very much, so it was. That's kind of the reason we were there.
Okay, well, thank you for you for now, thank you turn
the focus onto David now, so David or Dave generally, it's only my
mother that caused me. David, so because you've not been on the show
before, No, not not not this one. Now, I've been a
long term patrol for the show. And basically, when I mean, this
idea came about because Rich showed me a rough idea of planning had and I
thought, oh, look, I've got some worksh do in Scotland and the
it sort of fitted quite honously with the route you were showing me initially,
and I fancied a weekend a way doing some hillwalking, and it also happened
really so we invited everyone came up here. How with you with the anchor
for the whole thing. People kept saying, you know, going on this
trip, I know Dave's triplet's we went together. I will pass the blame
entirely onto you for everything wherever possible. That's fine. I've got both shoulders.
I don't mind. So as far as what I was expecting, I've
got a limited amount of mountaining experience, mostly a little bit of Whales and
a little bit of Lake District, and I was unprepared for the dramatic scenery
in the Western Highlands, which was bloody hell. That's quite severe, quite
big and steep. Yes, it's from c to that goes straight up.
Yeah, it's relentless. Somebody once said to me that walking in Sodi or
the Lake District or anywhere else in England and Wales is completely ruined for you
the moment you come to the Western Highlands or the Caring Horns, because just
after that, that's that's where the big stuff is, that's what the proper
stuff is. Yes, and it was I was really catching the boat in
and dawn was starting to break. You've got that twilight first thing in the
morning, twilight, and you start seeing these dark shapes, dark sharp shapes
appearing in front of you, like, oh, I didn't quite realize it
was going to be. Is dramatic, it's the best way to describe it.
I mean, it's achingly beautiful and there's just visit is for to fill
the soul with everything you could ever want. It's I absolutely love the place
I shall be coming back. It's given me a taste of for what else
there is definitely so. I think it's something for our overseas listeners, but
to through those in the in Canada and the southern Canadian region just below it.
But these these mountains aren't huge by sort of global standards. They only
go to about three or four thousand feet above sea level, but you're often
viewing it from sea level. Yes, that's where the roads and the valleys
are. Don't go more than one hundred meters above sea level. A lot
of the time. Often you're driving on the coast, so when you see
the summit of the mountain over there, you're looking right up. You're craning
your neck right back to lock the top. There's no one going up to
five thousand feet and then there's a peak. It's I'm on the bunt when
you go straight up who which is very good. My fitness level for what
we were planning wasn't adequate in my opinion, I'd probably got through it,
but I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. I'm certainly the little bit of
walking up done in mountains wasn't good enough prepper ration for coming up here.
It's just rumless slot of uphills, but the views at the top are definitely
worth it. It's often trackless as well, isn't it. Yes, if
you're lucky, you're following a deer track type thing. It's just case of
that let's pick the the less dangerous looking roots on that hill, yeah type
thing. Alison and I were doing a lot about on the second and the
second day we sort of get to okay, we'll get to this rock and
remember that rock we're standing there, and go left round up and there,
right round that and left through that, zigzag through that. Oh yeah,
I see, get onto the one with a point between the square point one.
Yeah. It's like when you look at the OS map, it's orange,
person, someone that's just solid orange. Just to contour lines are just
so close together. It's it's not orange map, which is not something you
get in the area from where the conto lines are infighting the trinciples. There
we go. Yeah, if I was coming back, I'd do a lot
more more preparation and a lot more severe hills, especially with what turned out
to be a heavy pack that i'd been practicing with, which leads on to
when I was taking so a seventy liter osprey pack. Heaviest items in there
were my tent which is wild Country Home compact too, which I've got some
new poles because I've broken weekend previously in the amber zide that lovely little storm,
that happy which you had to get delivered to my house because it was
more likely to get to the than the Western Highlands in time. Yes,
So when I spoke to well comforted them like, oh, we're not sure
if it's going to get to you in time, so I gave them your
restriction. It turned up next name, which is brilliant. Yeah. But
then I got a message every day saying have you still got the poles?
Are the poles? Have you packed the poles? Are the poles in the
truck? The pole? Did the poles make it to the second vehicle?
I'll be here, And I did wonder what about it? Yeah, but
I did wonder where the you know, would it be too cruel to just
sort of photoshop them into different places, you know, throw it into a
rubbis dumb a band above the river which struck down side of the M six.
Yeah, we've got that face. Yes, So yes. When I
originally planned my pathway, I was looking at about eight to ten kiloads and
then suddenly it turned as nineteen when we got here, so I hadn't quite
planned properly for that. I mean, one of the things I managed to
do before is I managed to lose nearly ten kiloads of weight. That definitely
helped from you, from me personally you because I knew this was coming up.
So I went on a mixture of very restricted diet which was basically chicken,
broccoli and rice and avocados mixed in with intermittent fasting and the way off
and I shall continue to do so it look better for us, better for
it, I agreed, because I want to lose. I was nearly ten
percent. If I can get to twenty twenty five percent, I'll be very
happy. That was That's not a six month period of ten kilars. You
did that in a month, but six weeks. Yeah. Yeah, And
I didn't feel bad for it either, So I didn't feel that losing that
way was a chore. I wasn't angry all the time. But I did
have to cut out drinking, which was fund a good thing for me,
definitely. It's a lot cheaper as well. Christ Well, I had to
find some way of a folding all the shiny kissing again. Yeah, but
Yeah, I spend more time doing more of the hill walking with the properly
weighted pack. My expectations and understanding of the trade and walking into have developed,
so I now know what to expect and yeah, quite that really learning
experience, I've learned a lot. I'll be better for birth next on.
So next up we have Chris who was on the IT Bring this year.
You are on the podcast, Yeah, I think so go on. All
right. So the chance for me to join this trip came up with Dave
at the gathering in the summer. Yeah, and it was more an nostalgia
thing because I've been here before. Last time I was at Neudark twenty twenty
one, and obviously there was a lot younger than because I'm a month away
from sixty. Your mind remembers twenty years ago, but your body is nowhere
near it. So I packed too heavy. I packed for other people because
I'm so used to running activities where you've got to take into consideration the lack
of ability of other people you've got with ye, not necessarily in the hills,
but in like in a woodland environment and in more of a lowland environment.
And these guys are very capable and I didn't appreciate that at all,
so I sort of basically humped. You might have to translate that for the
Americans if they listened to no, I carried. I carried fifty pounds up
the hill, come back and used perhaps a quarter of the stuff in there.
Yeah. Yeah. One of the other things that I did was I
decided I wasn't going to throw a load of money at new equipment for an
activity that I would probably not do that often or ever again, so I
may do with what I had. When you're in a group, you have
to understand fitness is different to speed, and you may be fit enough to
walk up and down the hill, but you may not be fast enough to
keep with the people you're with, and that's very important to understand. But
coming back to the estate was really good. I enjoyed it and it was
great fun with you guys. Yeah, because we I think we've been on
the on the peninsula twenty two minutes before you bumped into somebody you oh god.
Yeah, And then there was another one walking out. Yeah yeah.
This guy sort of stopped was on the track and he was doing the are
you meant to be? You're not meant to be? On that track over
there on the other side of the valley. Question. Yes, but then
more to the points, I don't know, we are heading for that hill
there. He gave us a bit of datron. Oh yeah, there's a
new track that takes you about the hydro there. And then if I was
going to be doing this, I go around onto the onto the ridge that
curves around onto that first summit and then you and Chris said, Drew,
aren't you it was he's a stalker. The Yeah, he used to stalk
that state thirty years. We only find out he was retired when we spoke
to the guy in the next day, didn't Yes, stalker is professional hunter,
not not somebody who just keeps hiding anyr bins. Oh yeah, and
those guys are up and down those hills all day with a rifle or pair
of binoculars and spotting scope and that's a cigarette as well, or yeah,
and a little flask of whiskey. And they're the types that if they do
get stuck out up there, they're just crawl out of the wind and come
back the next day and no one would ever worry about it. Yeah,
yeah, but no, that's so that was good. So it was.
It was interesting as well seeing the comparisons between kit because my kit was very
different to alistairs and shockingly similar to days unfortunately. Yes, yeah, Dave
and I have have this weird thing. We don't communicate about stuff, and
then we end up buying, if not the same model of something, we
end up buying something that's incredibly similar. So I think we ended up with
the same boots, pretty much, the same trousers, same rucksack, same
satellite communicy, it's the same poles. They're all very very similar that you'd
have look tice and that's my pack. Yeah, and it was. It
was practiced such from the back from from from the back. It was all
very neat, so like an alpine pack effectually, so there's nothing hanging off
it, not like bottom pands banging around. Yeah, because that's how I've
learned to pack over the years. It goes in the pack and you don't
make a lot of noise because I like to exist in nature, not scared.
Its way. It was ironic because you start a deer away, well,
let me go, I think you actually saw the deer that heard you
when they were approaching us from an angle. And it was when I was
telling you to remain still and you were walking towards the two coming towards the
water. Oh well, I can quite see what you would there. So
if you're using handsOn, I didn't know what they meant because I was never
in the army. But on that kit, I mean your tent weighed what
under two killer grounds? I think so, yes, I was using a
hubb a hubber NX, which is it's not a lightweight tart tent by any
means, but it is you know, it's around the two kilo or just
under one took it did take off, yes, so that was a learning
point when you compare that new tech with the old tech. I think my
tent setup was around seven kilos, but that was some of that are put
down to the well the size of it. You saw the difference in the
size and also no in this ground. I chose really robust you know,
brackets, heavy pegs to bring with me as well, and never lost a
peg that first night. Think it was because of various reasons. We ended
up in this saddle, which was pretty much collecting all of the wind that
had come over from the east of Scotland, went right through the middle of
the highlands and all focused into that one acre of hillside into my tent.
Yeah, because you I think you're you're I was nearly finished setting my tent
up when I saw your tent in my sort of upper nine o'clock periphery as
it blew away briefly because your your small shepherd's crook pegs don't didn't actually hold
in properly, but even mine I was. I watched you set up your
tensaster before I set mine up. I usually sort of like as an avalanche
poodle to try and find a way to okay and see what happens to his
tent, and then I'm going to base. I had to go right next
to him or all the way over there, depending on how badly or well
this goes. That is one of the things I've picked up over the years
and years is if you can always go for the most robust pegs, because
they will make such a difference. So you can have the best tent in
the world, but if it blows away, you know you've had it.
You can have a crappy tent, but if it holds still, at least
you've got some sort of cover. Yes, but you just have to carry
him. Yeah, I bought some of the great big nine inch nail tenth
snail pegs or more way up in the ambleside, because I needly lost my
tent then and the little pegs I had were not sufficient for the grammy in.
Then yeah, the little titanium chapper tucks crooks because luckily I've brought more
than a selection of pegs. So yeah, when the inner decided to make
its way swiftly towards the block, and yeah, they were swiftly replaced with
MSR groundhogs, which actually did the job far more appen for me. And
yeah, that's a note that are used in logan conditions for sure. Then
the next day, because we've got things up about just bloat just over two
thousand feet, I think we were at We counted that our first night,
and then alstrad I headed off in one direction and Chris and Dave headed off
in a different direction, and Alstrada I decided we wanted to really wanted to
do another eighteen kilometers, yes, in a short period of time, and
didn't see anybody until we were really nearly at the bottom again, although there
was a near miss where I decided to go and flip a rock and dig
a hole somewhere just off to the one side of the track. Haven't not
seen any other humans, But over twenty four hours and not five minutes later,
the only other two people in the entire valley decided to try and walk
past. Yes, there was a certainly delaying tactics, mostly caused by a
small Scottish slash wearing a Highland coup hat, which was fascinating. Yeah.
I've always got this theory that if anyone does disturb me whilst we're in the
middle of your blue sh and maintain eye contact, maintain dominance, and they
they'll back away slowly. It's their fault. Yes, safe for bears,
isn't it. Yeah? I think well, you know, on our route
back down, we started to then see more of the deer trails and we
never came back down the route that we went up. We dropped into that
re entrant and then we picked them up. And there's a reason that the
deer walked that way. Yes, And it's a lot quicker, easier and
interestingly less risky because they are not scrambling over rocks and you can see the
trails when they come to a boggy area that they can't jump, they will
walk around it, and it just the more you come sort of tuned into
that, they then lead you the not necessarily the most direct way, but
they lead you the safest way or a safe way. It's no efficient roots,
isn't it. Yah. I found that on the second day where there
was no human tracks really there, but we would often be picking our way
between two rocks over around the bluff and you just do it visually based on
what looks at the best line, and then you get there and they'd already
be deer prince or fresh deer who on the ground. Yes, so you
were following in the deer track without even realizing it was there because you looked
at it like a deer the longing to be there. And it was interesting
how often that happened. And that is you just tuning into that environment in
a relatively short period of time, because when we were going up, you
know, you can look at it and go, oh, yeah, there's
a deer motorway on the other side and all the rest. But then within
ten hours or you know, five ten hours of that, you are then
seeing those those single deer route. Yeah. Definitely deer roots when Rich and
I were following the ridge line. I think half the times that we were
actively avoiding them was so that we could either look to see the next step
of our root or just to sort of claim the peek as it were,
you know, where whereas the deer would be running around slightly around sort of
the leeward side of the hill or on the slightly flattered ground just below where
they're scent wouldn't be sent over the hill. For sure, we were,
you know, it was it was nice to not be on a on a
walk track actually a fair bit. Yeah, it was using the ground you
could sneak upon quite happily as well. You were well within stalking distance.
Yeah. We had several good wildlife encounters Tomigan snow grouse, thing, plenty
of read deer. We've got seal down in the valley. Yeah yeah,
yeah. We saw squirrels in the woods coming back down, didn't we.
There were grays and the highland some of them. It's no doubt really is
a special place, and that that ferry ride that brings you in, so
it's a half hour ferry you bucket from a placed on the lake on the
mainland, I could say, in the mainland, but it's both on the
mainland, but it really does feel like an island when you're there because you're
accessed by sea, and to walk out is a couple of days realistically from
where we were, so that ferry ride across is there's always something about arriving
somewhere by small boats as well that it doesn't make it feel a little bit
special. Yeah, I think when we landed because I think we'd looked at
the weather and made some predictions based on wind speeds and so on, and
our original plan was that we would catch the boat in and then walk out
because then we wouldn't be beholden to whatever weather came in, as it was
beginning to look a bit gusty and a bit fruity for the extraction. So
our original plan was to walk out, And I think part of the impetus
when we got there was like, this is us. Now We've got,
you know, two or three days ahead of us to slog out back to
you know, where we parted the car in the first place. And there
is a I like that thing about it being committed to a place, because
that was something in the original plan which we didn't quite hit because that plan
all hinged on. You had to get to this certain point by the end
of day one because if you didn't hit that point, then you wouldn't be
able to make up the time on day two in order to do day three,
which got you back to the start point. Yes, and there was
a bit of extra communication with home, trying to get sort of ferries,
book and things like that, because there is a mobile data signal there now
at four G in places, but even so once you're once a behind the
mountain, it doesn't work. Yeah, and we took different communication devices with
alses just occurs. Yes, Yeah, that was part of my planning.
Everyone else carried the gear. Dave and I both had the Mobile Defy Satellite
communicator, which we you bought about a month before I did. Yes,
and we've both been playing around with which seems to work, but it does
require being able to see a satellite that's quite low in the sky, so
when you're behind a mountain and there's a mountain between you and the satellite doesn't
work. It's been very similar to every satellite phone experience I've ever had in
a valley, which is wandering around with the area at a slight angle,
going no, yeah, no, yeah, no, right, because the
satellites are all equatorial and we are fairly far north well, you know,
relative to most other things. I think we are about level with mid Nova
Scotia. Yeah, always gets it wrong. It's how far north England or
Britain, the British hours actually are. We're actually remarkably far north, but
we're worn temperate and down, yes, beacause of the Atlantic and the jetstrip,
but we are quite quite long way up. So we are at the
edge of where Motorola and Bullet and the people that run the software and the
satellites for it, they say that we are in the coverage zone that is
well covered. But I would say only if you're on a south facing slope.
Yes, I mean even on the top of the hill. Sometimes I
was finding finding it difficult to get stuff like coverage yea, as the communicators
do need to be on top of your pick yes, high up with a
good view of the sky, so you can't check it in the bottom of
your pipe. It won't work. Literally turning your rocksack over it's enough to
block it. It's almost like you have to orientate it before you then commit
to sending the message. Rather than just relying on it being there. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, also just looked it up. We're at fifty seven
degrees latitude where we were there, so and whereas Chris, you took a
PLD. Yeah, that's I always carry that. I have for years and
well, as you know, it's not a communicator. It's a press the
button for help device, but that relies on well that's working to different satellites,
to the communication satellites. So you are according to the stats and the
history of people who've used it, you know you've got good coverage very far
north and south worldwide. You might struggle on the pole. Other than that,
you know, it's yeah, because that's the think yours is you press
the button, unfold the antenna, and then it's leaps until the battery goes
dead. That's right. Yeah. So it's got the GPS antenna and then
the satellite antenna and it bangs out four h six megahertz at five watts,
So it will punch through pretty much anything. And where we were, there's
nothing to stop it. You're going, I'm here, come get me,
I'm here, come get me, can get me repeatedly. Yeah, And
it will do that and update your position every sort of it's fifteen minutes,
so you're you know, you're not probably not going to be moving anyway,
so it's it's great on that. The disadvantage, of course, is then
you don't get that two way colms like you would if you guys hit your
emergency buttons. There's a chance that someone could then assess what the nature of
injuries and give you an update on time frames. With the PLB, just
hunker down and wait it out. Yeah. And also I suppose it doesn't
because of that lack of two way. It doesn't allow you to resolve minor
problems. It's either it's nothing or nuclear. That's right. It's a cool
for rescue rather than ask for advice. Yeah, or I can't say other
ferries running tomorrow? Is this thing running? Is this? What's the what's
the weather forecast? But I can ask if as long as you get a
signal, I can go and ask Amy, yeah and look it up for
me. But that overall is part of that sort of pre planning for it.
Because the stuff like Communicator, it communicates to an app, so it's
not you can just send a text message out, but you can't do two
way unless you're within their app that app lies the person on the around.
I think you probably have this with your wife as well. But the app
is open and they're expecting you to be sending messages through it, but it's
running in the background. Yeah, it's going to be enabled on the on
the handset and they have to signed up and you know it's got to be
present. Oh, you just get based texas you go download this app.
Some people have to talk to you. Yeah, but I found with that
the first time you do that, it doesn't actually work properly. Is until
you almost started a new conversation, and then it works about them. I
think there's an app book which is the sort of thing you test a few
weeks before you go on a trip. You don't want to do that whilst
you're in the middle of nowhere to work it back and forth while sit there
were two firms next to each other. Yes, absolutely, you've got to
established that relationship with the person that we talk to before needing to because I
think that's something that people often do is they buy a piece of equipment for
a trusted brand, trusted source. They trust the reviews and they trust it's
going to do exactly what it says on the tin. But I'm a very
suspicious person and I want to go, Yeah, I want to I want
it. I want it to do the thing in front of me good conditions,
two or three times before I trust that it is actually going to do
that thing. Yes, Is that water filter going to work? Is that
tent going to stand up? Is is that sleeping that going to stay inflated?
Think you had a few issues of that somewhere. I've got a small
leak of moid sleeping that and even submerging at the bath. I can find
the whole at the atomic level somewhere. It's I think it's leaking seal that
trying to submerge and inflated sleeping is actually quite difficult because it doesn't want to.
So if I've got that tiny leak and it's not showing bubbles with some
soapy water, I actually need to submerge it in still water to see the
air bubbles coming out. You need more of a swimming pool than a bath,
and several people to hold it now weight it down and I just see.
But that was interesting about the communication devices because the three of us took
one. Obviously, Alistair is relying on ours a little bit if it all
went pe Tom. But thinking back on it, I never did any training
with yours or your motor rollers. You know, I never bothered myself to
go, like, show me how this will work. So if I have
to use that in a hurry because I'm the only one left and I need
to text my last will and testament to somebody, or how does this actually
work? But you did show us your yeah, showed me. Yeah,
yeah, I got the beacon out on the night before we went and showed
you the buttons. But it could be even a simple thing like oh,
yeah, I know yours works through the phone, but how do I unlock
your phone? What's your code on the screen? You know? Do I
have to cut your thumb off or something to cut off? It's better to
be sure. Yeah, that's which hand putting your in head on again and
a bit of an instructor learning, and that's sharing that that kit and that
knowledge rather than just for a lot of richer take care of it. And
then we all took water filters, which is quite interesting. Yeah, that's
gone more for you. No, it's my phone, which was recording half
the conversation on has just decided to reboot itself. So we'll start that recording
again. Should we pause everything? Picking up on this and people like to
hear the shambolic nature of the kettle. We knew that plan right. We're
back, So the audio may have changed a little bit because my phone decided
to die. I don't know why. I think it was actually the app
for running motorrollers have like communicator, decided didn't like what we were saying about
it and killed itself. So we've changed up positions on the table and now
the recording devices at one end. So the audio quality may have gone up
or down depending on how badly the first bit went. If it sounds like
my bits had dubbed in afterwards, they probably weren't. So we started talking
about this when we were resetting with new coffee and resetting the table. There's
a thing about tech overall, which Chris said about we didn't show you know.
This is how you use our device, but realistically, unless you have
to go into the app, go and find the messages and do the two
way to access a two way communication for our things, you have to go
right into the app on our phones, but on the device itself there is
a big orange SOS but to press that and stuff will happen. There's a
checking button as well, which if you set it up in yeah, yes,
it can send your current location to your nominated check in contact. Yes.
Yeah. The only thing I'd say on that is when you look at
the video, they're a promotional video and it says, you know, even
if you press the SOS but and they will then come back to you.
That sort of implies and I've never used it, but it implies that I
then have to go on that phone to apply to their messages. We're going
to do a review on it, and I'm going to ask them for some
questions because there was some feedback on this anyway. But I will ask that
if you just press it and ignore it, does something? Do they eventually
go or I will send something Yeah, appears on your head ultimately, right,
it's going to be the same emergency service or volunteer organization that comes to
you. It's how that that group receives the information, you know, because
they're going to be tasked by the police. But the police after then get
the information. Does it come from a pool center in Kuala Lumpet or does
it you know, how does it work? Then comes through the ARC.
Yeah, but then it's like that The emergency show was quite interesting because when
I was talking to the sign of the police guys, they're very well practiced
on taskings that come through regular channels. So if the the RCC tasks the
local police force, that is an established procedure. But if it's like let's
just say it's the Garment Emergency Control Center that then phones a police number in
the UK, You've got all of that. Is it real, isn't it?
You know, the procedure isn't quite as well practiced. Yeah, I
think it goes center. I think I think in the UK both PLDs and
this sort of goes to definitely will go through Farmer Yeah, and goes through
basically Coast Guard. Yeah, it goes through the MCA. It used to
be in lots sorry if Kin Loss up here didn't. Yeah, there was
two. There was the Farmers one was the civilian one and then the r
c C at Kin Loss was for when we had military covering why need search
and rescue legions and stuff like that. But now it's all just based a
phone and depending on who you got, there was either the seeking but it's
way to sell this to me that we actually need to send you a seeking
which was there was always interesting conversations. But that's the parts of the thing
about other tech. Because Dave and I both had os maps with us.
You had the maps printouts, yeah, copy map. Yeah. And then
Dave and I were both running Outdoor Active on our phone as an app.
Yes, I also have Mr Map as well, Yes, which is I
think I prefer the map rendering to be honest on the map. Yeah.
Outdoor Active app has got better, but it's still doggy and doesn't have all
the features and wanted to have it. It sort of took over from an
app that was called view Ranger, which was almost perfect. Yes, everyone
loved it, and then it went and now it's sad because it's acts as
a sort of trained map reader. It was. It was nice when we
were up on the high sort of ridge with some of the wind and you
were there just with your phone, quick zoom. That's that's the next sort
of checkpoint that we're aiming for without a map flopping around. You've cut down
your map, which yeah, it's pretty pre standard of the size of the
phone. Screwing basically yeah, yeah, so I do it so I can
fold it to that size. But also sometimes you know, like when it's
up there and you're looking at five k's on a little square is not enough.
Sometimes you need to be able to see a big like that little bit
bit further but at the same scale, because that really MUCKs me up is
when you can zoom in and out and the squares get I'm just so tuned
into looking at a two centimeter square, you know, it's I find it
difficult then to see features when that two centimeters square becomes five and then it
changes changes the color scheme as well, exactly. Legend say, we were
quite tech heavy. I suppose we're a little really. We have, you
know, three three emergency systems, three hard hard copy maps, two electronic
versions walking around. I think I was carrying three compasses. Yeah, I
think each of us had a compass I have. Yeah, there was with
the matching, but with the tech for the mapping for the app. We
were using that as a map. We weren't using it as GPS dedyce.
So yeah, if we were relying on waypoints and saying, okay, navigate
to this waypoint in the straight line. Navigated this waypoint in a straight line.
It was we already looked at the map weeks before and going, yeah,
there's that flap ontour to that flat contur these contours in between. That's
an acceptable ridge, that's an acceptable sloppangle. I know I can walk at
that with this kind of pack. There might be some rocks, it might
be some undergrowth, but we'll deal with that on the day. And then
we were just navigating from assuming I no, I need to get to this
flap bit, this bit on the on the ridge, so that's through here,
through here, through here, and then looking at it at it on
the ground, I'd say, if it'll be navigator. If the weather had
come in and we dropped down to sort of normal Scottish visibility, which is
about the length of your trekking pole, then I would have gone to the
paper map, I think, because I'm more comfortable using that to go from
place to place to place with or without the assistance of the compass, because
it's easy. Like Chris are saying, my brain is built then for the
square, for the grips of being a certain size, whereas with the phone
and zooming games, zoom and zooming out, so you can't get a sense
of how far apart of those contours are based on your zoom level. Yes,
you have to put you have to then dedicate more brain energy to work
out what should almost be a second nature sort of understanding. Yeah, I
think like talking about the weather as a as a designates for our replanning or
planning. I think that the wind speed change changed our root selection initially from
voting boat act to we're going to try and walk out. And then when
we hit the ground it's very you know, beautiful weather actually, and we
as we got up to that towards the lock the hydro lake and then beyond
the wind started kicking in when we were getting more exposed. And I think
that's changed your guys' perceptions of what was ahead possibly yes versus Richard and I's
yeah, sort of situation of how it would change our plan on the ground.
Would you say anything to that? Yeah? But also like I was
like quietly not confident, but sort of quietly hopeful that I could achieve an
average of around sort of like say two clicks an hour, but just a
steady pace. But then that that quickly became apparent as we started to climb,
when we were hitting that rat and that I wasn't going to do that,
and that was going to have a big effect on what you guys,
because you know, like you guys are probably your four clicks an hour years
we are, well, I'm certainly twenty years. You're young. Yeah,
but I mean that's not the point because it's the effect of one person on
that whole group and not the mission. But you know what, the sort
of light the outline aim was, Yeah, faster, that's right, and
then you don't like the rest stop so you guys can get ahead. You
then wait for me to catch up. I get my ten minutes, you've
already had twenty and you're off again, so you're not catching up on that.
I think there's also a if you're walking for ten hours, you've got
ten hours of walking drained from your legs, no matter what speed you go
back to. Definitely, it's like some of them you can feel absolutely knackered
after a day of wandering around doing Christmas shopping, despite you haven't actually gone
that fast, you haven't gone that far. It's just you are standing up
and shuffling and adusting your weight for ten hours. Yeah, it's the same
thing for because I was like I was feeling quite tired at the end of
day one. We hadn't necessarily gone as far as we wanted to, because
it turning up at that time. We just went. And even if it
was standing around waiting, we're still holding seventeen like pack or whatever. And
also it's our differences because looking at day one, if I was making the
decision to lead a group up there, I would have probably just followed the
re entrant rather than you know, we went. We followed Drew's little sniggery
advice and went to the left and hit it almost straight on, didn't we.
In places, see, I've found a mountaineering that it's a it's a
shallower slope, aangle to go on the left because the ridge is more gradual,
it's still pretty steep, whereas the re entrant you're going up into it,
but then the last bit is a full on climb out at the end,
whereas the other way you run up and flaps. In hindsight, and
having seen what we've seen as we came down, and it would that wouldn't
have been the case. We'd have gone up, you know, on the
left side, following the deer track, and then there was the deer motorway
was on the right and we'd have come out right by that little lot where
we all spent the night. Yeah, we did find a much more gentle
route down what we took out, Yeah, which whilst it's still the same
vertical ascent, it's no nearest of it too. There's the whole mental challenge
as well, when when you're sting the bottom and sudden that's thirty to forty
degrees and you look at going that's really steep and I'm going to struggle.
You've already decided you're going to struggle, Yeah, and you don't know that
you're descent route would have been better in ascent onto your tray. That's exactly
right, absolute, Yeah, that's that's one of the things. And it
comes with familiarity with the area walking in and this was this was an adventure,
yeah, And that's the whole point it was. It was going in
that this was definitely unknown for me, well out of my comfort zone,
and I didn't know the trail at all. I've looked on Google Earth,
I've thrown through because you can bring a viewpoint down and literally move through about
it. And even then he was unprepared for the severity of it. So
your research was going to Google, mapp sliding around. I think you'd looked
at trail routes because you during the initial planning you were putting out various different
ones. Yeah. I looked at people's blogs and previous routes, photographs,
their comments about where things aren't, what things are, the best routes.
So I've done a lot of background reading and a lot of what I thought
was meant mental preparation for arriving, and I hadn't done enough. And then
Chris, you were going off your base knowledge of when you've been here,
Yeah, years ago, But that's just they you know, you meet in
the morning, you go out for the day, and you come back.
You're not you're not doing what we did. And also when you look at
a lot of the reviews of people who are walking that area, they will
go and stay in the lodges and things and bag a couple of monros of
the day and then come back, so they're not planning for overnight, which
is what we were doing. So we were planning for two overnight it yeah,
three maximum. Because I did again likely some of other people's blogs,
there was I was looking on I don't know, a road bagger or something
like that for the local area and seeing what other routes people were doing,
because that was just towards the end of the planning selection when we were finalizing.
And then I found a couple of YouTube videos of people walking the trails
that would have taken us to the Sudi's Bottom, which was one of our
first overnight spot, so I could see the terrain and so at least in
my head, I have not been up here before, I knew what to
expect, steep mountains given little tree cover, given the videos gave me the
bandness that I'd forgotten or was unaware of. And also sort of how the
wet dry conditions, because we really experienced the wet conditional normal Scotland. It
was very dry, wasn't it. Were really happy with the very dry considering
how bad the other side of Scotland's had it recently. It's still barb it
flowing through and flooding into our communities and people dying Western Higlan. It was
surprising and just how dry it was, Just how dry the you know,
the streams in the re entrance that the water flow from dam and everything.
It was. Yeah, there's a trickle. It's the driest I've seen in
the Western Highlands in October. Yeah, there was, and that that made
everything easier in a way, which doesn't really affect the other decision and the
other points. But the difference in wet rain, the difference in bogy terrain,
the difference and just how much resistance the ground puts up when you put
your foot on it. That makes a huge difference to what to how much
effort it tastes to traverse that route, how much, how much mental energy
intakes to go through that route. But it's thing, I feel like we've
all had good learning points from this, and it's not necessarily the learning points
we expected to gain. I think it was sense to talk learning points.
There was a comment I think Chris brought up, which was he carries poles
for for use, but he's not he doesn't get mad a lot. Yeah,
it was. It was my first time using poles on steep mountains,
you know, and pretty much and but I've been a skier for many years,
so again I'm used to poles. Yeah, you know, there's a
there's a core memory of corn memory. But you know, when I'm not
concentrating, I go into a flaw. You have muscle memory, yeah,
and Rich certainly has that. So it's quite interesting seeing how how much extra
effort I guess you guys were having to put into due to just having to
concentrate to think about it was when it focuses you into that little bubble which
is as far as your poles can reach, when you should be looking You
should be looking there, right, You should be looking ahead, rather than
where am I going to put this pole? Yeah, that's the thing I
think. Until your poles become muscle memory, they aren't. They aren't a
useful tool until you stop thinking about them. And then when you do stop
thinking about them, they make a huge difference. I used to use when
I used to do ultramarathons, and they would knock minutes of my average colometer
pace, you know, just by having poles and way we were using them
on the second day, it was it was as much for agility, yes,
as anything else. It was sort of you come around, you you
come around with rock. You use it to offset that so you can keep
the momentum into the corner, which overall does affect your average pace. But
there were a few times where poles stopped me probably getting a prop of an
ankle just with ground gave way below below me into a bulk or something like
that. But I sort of leaned on the pole, not on not on
my ankle or my ship. There is a great tip Dave give me on
the way down, because as we were coming down, Dave was in the
front at this stage and I could see him using the poles to stop his
momentum going forward, and I was trying to do the same, but constantly
going forward. And then you know, he said, oh, you have
extended your poles for going down. Well, yeah, of course, I
don't know what I'm doing. Go around the rock, yeah, longer the
way down. Yeah, that comes down to time on time on tool.
Although I can't use the scratch properly apparently, no, we did. You
have to be showing several times and you still get it wrong. You're an
engineer, like right, you put your hands the straps like this, and
I'm and now they're wrong. But I've just done what you've told me to
do. You're perhaps you got that pole. Do you know what I found?
I found for me, I was more comfortable not actually using the straps
because then I could position my hand anywhere up and down that pole, you
know, to push me off if the pole needed to be sure. I
could do that. It's kind of I know, when I'm in an almost
a flow state, when I'm moving across rough ground with poles. Is when
I realized that now both of my left hands and my right hand's holding onto
a rock. As I'm scrambling up, and I don't remember doing it,
I just automatically slip my hands out of the straps past the dealer pole to
the other hand I'm holding it midway down. I'm climbing up onto the thing.
It's like when you you you drive the same route to work every day,
and you eventually get to a point where you're at work, and you
can't remember anything about the journey about how you got there. When I'm doing
that, I know that I'm probably in the right mental state for this,
but it's not entirely trustworthy. The other interesting or another interesting one for me,
it would be to find out or to hear from you guys, how
your water systems expectation versus performance. Because we all had a different version of
the Fuilter. Unless Dave and Rich and all that nobody he had he had
one I already owned, but I took a different one. They had to
be a linked Yes, so I've got the little ms R Trail Shots trail
shop thing. One's like a prima ball for an outboard motor something like that.
Yes, And it's not very fast and it cold up instantly the first
time I tried using it, which is disappointing. And it's quite a chunky
little puddle. It's quite a peaty little it's it's we do have a pre
filter on it. Yeah, it's got fine, very fine filter, so
you're not sucking the solid straight up. And eventually once I hadn't wash that
off and cleaned it up and it started before me. But there was a
lot of a lot of effort required for not a lot of water, whereas
watching Alistas casting in B three, you just fill it up and then you've
sluted it out and it uses the pressure of you squirting the whole bottle,
which is a lot more efficient. Let's that you required a lot less effort
to get the water that I needed. Yeah, we have both ptechnically had
the same film from different companies, didn't we Yeah, because I bought the
patienin B three specifically for this trip. I've got a Sawyer squeeze home,
which is dependable, but there was a discount, a healthy discount, and
your wife worked in an outdoors it was there was there was good reasons behind
getting it, but it was also because I wanted to take a much larger
water carrier to do can't filter, which the cast and filter is better for.
But yeah, that was new to me, and it was again similar
dark peating puddle. That was quite a quick learning experience that actually it's not
great in murky water, but as a speed way of getting filtered water into
it's it needs very equick. I have the Platypus basically equivalent to the Sawyer
squeeze, and there's a few different things that have the same same system,
where there's a drinking bladder type bag that you fill with water, screw it
onto the filter, put the clean end of the filter over your bottle,
and squeeze it out. It's one I might use that one that's much,
but it was just it basically was the first one in the pile of water
filters that came up. I mean the lucky position where I have a box
of water filters. So I just went for the one at the top,
but I was happy with it. The maybe sighted bigger capacity for filterings,
it will only be about a liter at a time in the bag, so
filling up two liters was get to go back to the stream twice, go
back to it twice, but I was happy enough with it. And the
thing with all three of our filters we've mentioned so far, they're all grating
the now point one microns, so they will not filter out viruses, which
is not really a problem here in the UK, so we don't basically no
viruses in our water unless you're collecting it from downstream of a sewish treatment plant.
But for the Highland upland water sources it's very unlikely to be a virus
problem in there, so those kind of filters work well for that. We'd
have had them boil it as well if there was going to be a problem.
But Chris, you had the slightly more Yeah. So it's the pure
hydration in line water filter, the bigger one with the pump. Yes,
yeah, so you've got it's like two hundred gallon capacity, and because it's
the pump, it will go down to virus. I think it goes zero
point zero three or something like. It's really good. And my experience with
it is from my military days. You know, I was involved in the
trialing of it to make sure it could come into service. So it go
all the way through the Institute for Outdoor Aviation Medicine and all of that type
of stuff. You know, it's good enough for a typhoon piler that to
sit on, it's good enough for me to carry up and down, and
it's versatile so I can take that filter and clip it to a camelback system
or to a gravity system. That your confidence and it was high for me,
you know as soon as we got there, whereas mind being brand new
to me, I was still you know, I've not done that testing three
times in ideal conditions or to try and find out how bad it was.
But again we had within the group, we had backup. You know.
It was I think we all brought it. That was a trial for us,
but there was back up within the great group. So yes, it
was a little bit more heavy individually, and we could have all bought modern
system for the group. I think that was part of the planning process,
was you do you and then we'll all come together and make it work.
Rather than we were a group. This person's going to lead, this person's
going to make, this person's going to carry temples. It's person got the
ten you know, it wasn't. And that's that's some of the bit that
I definitely got wrong because I didn't just do me. I was also us
subversively doing you as well, if you know what I mean. Yeah,
that was a weird thing for me in a way because I had to remind
myself halfway through September or at the end of October when the trip happens,
halfway through September, to remind myself, no, no, you're not in
charge of these people. You've been advited as a peer. It's peer.
And this in hindsight, this is a different thing for me because I've done
fair amount of peer trips, less so in the last ten years because more
trips have been work and when I go out with friends, we don't go
into the hills, we don't go Toto the woods, because I'm doing that
all the time. So going out with peers before that was generally with peers
who were peers. In terms of experience, I was often sort of middling
or lowest experience in the group. And then when I'm leading, I'm often
the most experience in the group by default, because you don't you don't pay
to train somebody who knows less than you. So for this it was I
was able to observe. Basically, I had all my kids, You had
all your kids. I would have helped with your kids if you needed it,
but you didn't need any help. And I wasn't in a position of
authority or control of any type, which meant I was able to have less
kit and I didn't have to worry about having little lamlets in the top of
my pack saying Okay, your leader is now unconscious or dying or dead.
If this case, do this, you know, get the standalone GPS out
of my pack. So I don't do this. Can you'd be surprised,
men, because I think quietly we were all looking to you anyway for the
wisdom. Can You're not, whether it was deliberate or not, because you
are the most experienced person in the mountains and all the rest. Even though
we didn't put a big I am the leader baseball cap on you. Well,
that's the thing. It's like that, I know you have more experience,
So I'd listened to what Yeah, definitely apart from apart from them.
When we were trying to find the first track and then you slipped and first
I told you so, Yeah, because I said this is down here.
Yeah, there was a lovely track down on the river. Though, wasn't
it enough to clime of de offense? But we walked back, we were
back. Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah. Simon says, do not go
in here, this is private, this is part of offenses. Yeah,
but Drew said it was all right. The last it's Scottish Act. Access
code means that even though it was a gate, you can still go through
it. That's why they're not allowed to panel. They do make it very
difficult to get through. They need small If you ignore the sign, everything's
possible. But that is something I started to get an idea in that first
morning that we weren't all in the same place growth zone, comfort zone.
Not no one was in panic zone, but it was it was it was
I said, this is going to be a stretch me my comfort zone.
I think the difference in terrain compared to what you'd seen before this was was
something because I was on a fair amount in Scotland that it's sort of Scotland
is like the wilder, crappier bits of Whales in terms of terrain, where
where there's no tracks, everything's uncomfortable, everything steep. Yeah, but that's
what most of Scotland's like, away from the bend Nervers track and stuff like
that. Whereas your your experience has been a lot of it's been the lakes
and Harbyshire and Dartmoor, which darn was pretty wild, but it's wild and
in a very different way. Yes, it's just a bit bleak. There's
no massive hilt, but there's a lot of bogs, yes, whereas there's
more human human sign you were mentioning to me, you know, oh,
that's the first plane I've seen for a while. There was no ambient sort
of a noise, which again I think we had snowed down. Yeah.
You you you can't get away from that. You have the sound of Kevin
for Birmingham on his sports bag coming through. It's a very different environment all
around, and like you said, creates. It's that tuning into the environment.
And I've got this this thing, not if even a theory, it's
just a belief that if you take the word bushcraft and bushcraft being the skills
needed to live and work effectively in that environment. The British bushcraft, if
the bushes, the wild bits, it's not a woodland in Hampshire. There's
nothing wrong with spending time in woodland in Hampshire. I spent a lot of
time in woodlands in the countryside of Northeast Wales. One of them is ansters,
but it is not the same skill set, is not the same mindset.
It's not the same reliance on your ability to read the landscape as coming
up here. And I would say, for if using bush is the wilderness
wilder areas of the UK, that is places like the Northwest Highlands, where
understanding that landscape, understanding that that rock over there is five miles away or
that rock over there is five hundred yards away based on size, or what
this wind means, what that white hazy bit blowing in over there means that
you're about to get to get wet in ten minutes because it's rain coming towards
you. Being able to read that landscape, being able to read the water
courses, read the angle of the slope and know what the environment is going
to do to your kit and what your kit needs to do to interact with
that environment. That is. So that is what bushcraft is. It is
that knowledge of knowing where you fit in that landscape, what your equipment,
whether it's made from the stomach of a red deer or whether it's bought from
Ellis Brigham, what that hit needs to do in that environment in order for
you to do your thing, whether it's walk or live or hunt or whatever
it is. It's that mental skill set. So bushcraft isn't building things in
the woods, despite what you do and an instagram tells you. It is
that inherent knowledge that you need to live in that environment. You can call
it field craft, you could call it hillcraft, you could call it mountain
craft, whatever, but bushcraft is the sort of the search engine friendly term.
So I think it's the trending to them. Yeah, so there's a
magazine on the table that I'm just looking at them just before we start on
the podcast that had a gleeful freemale walker who was going up a mountain range
very close to me, which is a friend's farm, and this this lady
clearly was having a great time taking up this hill, conquering this hill.
But to my friend Sarah, that's her checking her sheep and she'll be doing
that in boots and gens before taking the kids to school. Yeah yeah,
or probably having the kids with her. Her bushcraft is hefted to that bit
of ground, whereas Ellen from Birmingham or whoever she was, you know,
that was out of her comfort zone possibly or her kids had to enable her
to do that, whereas she think she thinks her kit is. But then
when you get up onto that area where we can and there's this is fifty
sixty hour wins hit. It doesn't matter who makes that kit. If your
tent blows away, it's so late to blaying the tent right, Yeah,
it's your fault, whether it's two hundred quid of Go Outdoors blowing away or
fifty quid from Tesco or seven hundred for MSR. It's still soarting off down
the valley and you're now stuff in your practice in your bushcraft without your tent,
which is there. What's going to kill on me first? So back
up is a bag or survival, but you haven't done that because it's more
important to feather some sticks and works because you've bought the thing and that thing's
at the bottom of your back and you know it's there. You are safe,
You aren't going to die because you have the thing and I've never opened.
But having shown any kids doesn't stop you getting into trouble. Having the
right mentality and the tools in your head will stop that. And we spoke
about that when we did our podcast. Was the the divorcing of responsibility by
having a named brand and endorsed brand and all the rest. But as as
you go back to all the time making the decisions, you know, I
knew halfway up that hill on day one that I wasn't going to be going
over the top, you know, to try to achieve that the initial goal,
and even you know, I was formulating my plan to to you know,
to fess up and say, hey, guys, I can't do this.
But also I was then looking around to say, how can I safely
or you know, as safely as possible get me because I was just planning
on me at that time to come back, to come back down and also
getting ready for the big argument where we're not going to leave you with learn
and all this type of stuff, But there was none matters like, well,
I think we just put you in misery. Nicole mckit if it wasn't
there. Even Drew would come back on it on the come up in his
shorts and flip flops. Part of that how people respond to the environment as
well, what group dynamics arelike, what's in the psychology of that, the
psychology of people who are in an environment that they thought they understood that they
don't, or because they've got an injury which has all sorts of effects on
the way they can physically perform, but also their emotional response to that.
All of these things are what would make a good mountain leader. These things
do come together to make a skill set that you can only develop by coming
to do these things. You've got to come out to the hills in a
way that means that if it goes well, you have a lovely time.
If it goes poorly, you don't die. And planning a trip that sits
within those brackets best time of your life didn't die. That's kind of the
up and lower level. And when I speak to people about developing their skills
and should you go out in bad weather, it's like, well, yes,
you should go out in bad weather, but only in a way that
means that it's safely. Yeah, you are ready to turn around, you
have the kit to deal with it. You are with somebody who can make
that call for you, and then you now have a data point that saying,
well, I went out with Bill, and Bill's done a lot more
of this than me, and Bill said, but he held this is terrible.
Let's turn around. I know, yeah, I probably won't go into
that level of condition again. But if you go out with somebody and they
say, well, it'll be fine if we do this, this and this,
or we'll get to this point and make a decision based on this criteria,
you now have. Okay, So that's the thing that makes the difference.
It's not just the wind, it's what the wind's doing in exactly that
one point. Yeah, because we definitely have that. On day two,
you guys have decided that your limitations were going to change what you wanted to
do. The number of us allowed us to split the group with the capability
between us and our confidence and my confidence and Richard's great time in the hills
and knowledge of whether on the hills or on these hills more specifically rather snow
don't know or whatever allowed us to go, Yeah, we can do that.
That's easy. And even if we get up there. We can always
turn around come back if it's all And like you said, that knowledge of
what weather or wind does around mountains that can only be attained from spending time
on task is applicable because we got up there and it was fairly hellish I
would say nine one where we were because we were in this vortex and wind.
But we got up to the top and it was mild. It was
we could hold a conversation ten feet apart without without raising a pose when we
heard you check to us and we were halfway down that valley when you were
waving the poles top, Yeah, we heard that. Well we heard the
Yale definitely. And I think the fear of the unknown. I don't know
how much that came into your making for your root selection. I think,
to me, yeah, it's relatable experience. So you know, there's been
cases, there's been times in the past when you're trying to do something and
you realize you're not going to do it, and then it's having the you
know, the balls to say right, enough is enough, idiot, turn
around and go back. But also you know, like if if I'm in
the woods on my own in a day's forest, maintenance. There's there's times
out there when the breeze will get up and the trees start to move differently,
when you know I have to go right, there's time to go home,
or you can just you know, grizz through it. The next thing,
you've got a three term tree over your legs or something. Yeah,
it's just relating, and everyone can relate from different experiences of what you do
in your daily life to that point where you make the decision we go on
or go back. You're really as good as your actual experiences. Following the
route of somebody else, following the guidance of somebody else in a book or
in one of the Root Guys and Trail Maga or something like that. You've
got to understand that when you're picking that up, what you're doing is picking
up a theoretical You're picking up Okay, if I follow this theoretically, I'm
going to have the same experience as the person who wrote this or the person
who did this group before me. But the variances in your kids, the
weather on the day, your fitness, your emotional state at that point,
your mental health, not just the weather the weather before. Yeah, that
the fact how dry the ground is the state of strange bridges likes everything range
you And when I come up here in winter, I'm looking at the weather
forecast from two weeks before, because that helps tell me what will happened in
the terms of avalanche risk. When you do come up here in the cell,
it would have been a different, you know, a whole different sort
of get together and decision making. If we'd got up to that campsite and
that was just that was just black bog. Yeah, there's no standing water
at all because the higher we got up those rivers and the little re entrances
got drier and drier and drier. The in fact we were next to that
little lock and yeah, made campsign. Yeah, but you know that could
have easily been dry. And then as we climbed onto the ridge the number
of smaller lockers that were less weigh you know, slightly probably better catsites actually,
which was what half an hour extra two hundred meters of extrascent to get
to them. Yeah, at the end of day one, with your opinion,
hit too heavy or legs a bit too bit too jazzed, a bit
too old. Yeah, thats how it changes your making good decisions. Well,
the good decisions. Is that was a good decision. Well, somebody
says, yeah, this is where this is my turnaround point. That is
a thousand times better than the person who then just keels over in a place
that's much harder to get someone out of or they can't get to it.
You know, I've done that on trips before, often that when I was
in Mountain rescue saying, I put my hand up halfway through through a search
and went, you know, I'm not enough sleep for this. Basically of
no use here whatsoever. I'm going back to my car to sleep. It's
having that self reflection as well as a think important part of that, and
that's what trips like this are value. Before we didn't we didn't achieve anything
in the grand scheme of things. We didn't save alive. We didn't find
the hidden treasure of whatever. Didn't find no. I didn't find MESSI or
I still just modered. I didn't see no Orthough we did find the best
oatmeal stout I've ever drunk, which is the the old Forge punid Art,
which is worth a visit. And I discovered that when I remembered I had
a hip flask of dura in my bag. You all became a lot more
tolerable. We lost it was inverse. Yes, I did become what irritating
last night? So I think they found at Booger Traptor's door with potato crisps.
Do not find that? Ye? Yes I did. Yes, that's
gonna be bot isn't it. So On that note, I think we'll end
the show, probably not gonna have to show for this one, just because
I think the important information is probably worth sharing with the public. But we
have something else maybe to share instead, So I'm going to cut this off.
Amy's going to splice in the extra bits and hopefully the audio quality wasn't
too bad. Thank you, gentlemen, both for the weekend and the podcast.
Thank you, thank you what it was, thank you and the accommodation.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Modern Outdoor Survival from Original Outdoors.
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our three principles of Modern Outdoor Survival and they are one, make good decisions
at the right times. Number two. Prioritize training over shiny new equipment.
Number three, remember Instagram is not your training provider. Bye.