1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:49,840 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:55,280 and I'm Bill Thomas. We're back with a second episode of Ask Us Anything, 11 00:00:55,359 --> 00:01:00,600 Colonial Parkway Murderers Edition. Wow. That sounds impressive. Yeah, we 12 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:06,200 had so many amazing questions the first time around, but we couldn't get to 13 00:01:06,239 --> 00:01:08,959 them all. And I think we've still got more than three quarters of the 14 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,560 list left, actually, and more questions are coming in as we speak. 15 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:18,359 I certainly don't want to be the person who's like, all right, guys, 16 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,319 put a halt on that, so we'll just still. We're going to 17 00:01:21,359 --> 00:01:23,640 do as many as we have here, and then we'll just continue addressing as 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,480 they come into us. Sounds good. I also wanted to mention something which 19 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,799 is in our last episode. We had discussed briefly the fact that we're going 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,879 to be together at a memorial service for Keith Call, and we wanted to 21 00:01:38,879 --> 00:01:42,040 give you the basics in case you want to put it down as we save 22 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:48,040 the date. We'll have more details as they come together. The memorial service 23 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:51,319 for Keith Call is going to be on October the fourteenth, that is the 24 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:55,799 second Saturday in October, and that is going to be at Rosewell Cemetery in 25 00:01:55,959 --> 00:02:00,560 Gloucester. As the time draws closer, we'll put like a link and a 26 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,879 map up in our show notes so that people can get an idea of the 27 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,800 space. But we do hope that anybody who has been impacted by these cases 28 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,879 and who knew or loved Keith Call, and certainly the other members of the 29 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,879 Colonial Parkway murders families will be there as well. So anybody who has feelings 30 00:02:16,879 --> 00:02:22,039 about these cases, we would encourage you to come out and share in this 31 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,960 celebration because this is the first memorial service that the Calls have been able to 32 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000 have for Keith, and we should take a moment here to mention this does 33 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,319 not mean that his body has been founded has not, but it seemed high 34 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,919 time for the Call family and then eventually for the Haley family as well, 35 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,199 to have a place to go. This is a memorial that will be placed. 36 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:49,319 There are no remains to be interred underneath it, but we do eventually 37 00:02:49,439 --> 00:02:54,439 hope that will be the case. And the nice people at the Cumberland Historic 38 00:02:54,719 --> 00:03:01,199 Cemetery Organization, who do historic monuments of this sort in Maryland and in Virginia, 39 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,759 had approached the Call family to ask if they might be interested in this, 40 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:12,000 and Edward Taylor, who's the president of the Cumberland Historic Cemetery Organization, 41 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,360 approached them. He had been following the case for a number of years. 42 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,639 One of the things that Joyce called Canada and her brothers had said to us 43 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:23,639 is they never really had an opportunity to do a memorial for Keith, because 44 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,400 you're always hoping that Keith and Sandy are going to show up at some point 45 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,639 and the years go by and nothing has happened, and then this wonderful opportunity 46 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:36,919 was presented to them by mister Taylor, which was very kind, and after 47 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:40,000 talking about it amongst themselves, they thought this would be a nice way to 48 00:03:40,199 --> 00:03:46,439 mark Keith's passing. They may do something at a later date for Sandy as 49 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:52,599 well. They're going to add a beautiful stone to the family plot at the 50 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:58,039 Rosewell Cemetery, which is where the call family, particularly their mother and father, 51 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:00,199 are buried. So I think it's a really nice thing. The public 52 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:06,080 is welcome to attend Saturday, October fourteenth at two pm at Rosewell Cemetery in 53 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:12,719 Hayes, Virginia. That is definitely something that we're looking forward to. The 54 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:15,919 two of us are going to be speaking and there will be any number, 55 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,920 I think of opportunities for nice remembrances for Keith. We'll include more information on 56 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:25,519 our social media page as that day grows a little bit closer. Let's good 57 00:04:25,519 --> 00:04:29,839 to jump into it. Continuing the huge swath of questions given to us for 58 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,319 ask us anything, We're going to jump into this section that I'm going to 59 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:38,120 call the suspect section. We covered a lot of general questions last time, 60 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:41,639 and today we're going to seek to talk about suspects and if we can, 61 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,199 we'll get into DNA and forensic genetic genealogy. First question comes from Johanna Why 62 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,439 Who asks probably the most important question of all, which is do they have 63 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:55,920 a suspect or suspects yet? Is DNA from one person? Or are there 64 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,800 multiple DNA samples at the different sites? Is any DNA linked to all the 65 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,680 sites? Let's take those one at the time. These are excellent questions, 66 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,120 and thanks Joanna. Do they have a suspect or suspects yet? We have 67 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,360 been told by law enforcement over the years that there are at least one hundred 68 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,920 and fifty persons of interest in the Colonial Parkway murders, as we talked about 69 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:24,839 last time, I am increasingly convinced that there may be multiple offenders in the 70 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,959 Colonial Parkway murders. That's just my personal opinion, and I could be completely 71 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,240 wrong, and I'm very comfortable at some point if an arrest is made or 72 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:40,399 a particular offender is identified, I'll be perfectly comfortable to be wrong. At 73 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:44,360 least one hundred and fifty persons of interest. Sometimes, the FBI has talked 74 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,240 to us about the list, which is at least one hundred and fifty persons 75 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,600 of interest, and then sometimes they refer to something as the short list. 76 00:05:51,199 --> 00:05:56,800 No one's ever crossed off the list, we're told, until an arrest is 77 00:05:56,879 --> 00:06:00,279 made and there's a conviction, so we're still not there yet. Sometimes they 78 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:04,759 refer to the short list, and that's probably an involved parking here, ten 79 00:06:04,879 --> 00:06:11,240 or fifteen names that are the people they would regard as the most likely. 80 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:14,959 As I said, no one's clear, no one's taken off the list, 81 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,519 but you might be on the less likely list. So I would put the 82 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:24,879 number probably around ten to fifteen suspects that are known to FBI or Virginia State 83 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,360 Police at this point. I think they would regard them as the most likely 84 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,800 suspects. I don't think this will surprise anybody who's been following mind Over murder 85 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,360 in this case for a while. A number of them are law enforcement or 86 00:06:39,519 --> 00:06:43,120 former law enforcement. The next follow up question to that is going to be 87 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,279 do you have names of a suspect or suspect? The answer for both of 88 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,560 those is no, neither of us have names. I want to be fair 89 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:56,399 to everybody. Obviously, one hundred and fifty people cannot all be involved in 90 00:06:56,439 --> 00:07:00,560 the Colonial Parkway murders, and as we've seen in this and in many others, 91 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,920 can destroy someone's life or certainly their reputation by insisting that is involved in 92 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,639 this or any other murder. They can't all be involved, and we're very 93 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,759 uncomfortable naming suspects. The only time I think will cross that line is if 94 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:24,800 an individual has died. We may be willing to discuss it, particularly if 95 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:30,240 their name has appeared sometimes repeatedly in the media over the years. So sometimes 96 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:32,759 we'll cross the line with someone who has died because I don't feel like we 97 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:39,959 can really impugne their integrity in anywhere, and they're dead and they probably wouldn't 98 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:44,079 care much about it anyway, and if their families are upset, I understand. 99 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,759 We're not saying anyone did it because we don't know exactly, and we 100 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:55,319 do know that everybody out there has their sort of favorite, shortless suspect, 101 00:07:55,439 --> 00:07:59,439 and we're going to cover some of the specific names in this next set of 102 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,079 questions have come up. Let's deal with the DNA question next. Is DNA 103 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,839 from one person or are there multiple DNA samples at the different sites? Definitely 104 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:16,800 not DNA from one person that we're aware of. There are multiple DNA samples 105 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:22,560 of potential suspects. You have to underline that we're not saying we know for 106 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:28,120 certain that these are the killers, but there are DNA samples at three of 107 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,679 the four crime scenes. We've asked this question repeatedly of law enforcement, and 108 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,480 the FBI has told us there is nothing in the forensics that links the four 109 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:45,120 crime scenes in the Colonial Parkway murders. I cannot emphasize this enough. I 110 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:48,679 know there are people that will insist it's this person or that person they're responsible 111 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:52,519 for all of the murders in the Colonial Parkway murders. They may be right. 112 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:58,240 I personally don't think that's the case. But the FBI has told us 113 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:01,919 repeatedly, and we've asked the question again within the last few months, is 114 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,440 there any linkage between the four crime scenes? And they say no. So, 115 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:11,600 taking that at face value, with the understanding they have not always been 116 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:16,720 as truthful as we would like, we do not believe that there is any 117 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,919 DNA linked to all four of the double homicides and the Colonial Parkway murders, 118 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:28,200 which definitely blows holes in the serial killer theory that people are so very fond 119 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,559 of and I get it because it's a compelling theory. We want to believe 120 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,399 that there is only one sicko out there murdering couples over a series of years 121 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,399 in the nineteen eighties. We don't want to believe that it may be four 122 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:46,639 or even more sickos out there uncaught. But the fact that there is no 123 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,200 forensic link to all four of the scenes blows a hole in the serial killer 124 00:09:50,279 --> 00:09:54,240 theory. But I know that's something that a lot of people want to hold 125 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:58,200 onto because it seems like the most compelling and most interesting theory. But as 126 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,639 you said, Bill, that may very well not be the It's also quite 127 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,559 possible that some of the Colonial Parkway murders could be related. And have said 128 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,080 all along, and I know you've said it to christ and you and I 129 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:15,639 both believe that incident number four Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer on Interstate sixty 130 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,960 four feels very different from the other crime scenes. I also think the Virginia 131 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,440 State Police or the responsible agency for the Phelps Laugher murder, have a good 132 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,759 idea who they believe the killer or killers happen to be. Who are people 133 00:10:30,799 --> 00:10:35,360 that have an association with Anna, Maria and Daniel, but they've not been 134 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:41,200 able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these individuals are responsible for their deaths. 135 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,159 That one is one that I think could ultimately fall off the table of 136 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,120 the Colonial Parkway murders because I think it may be an independent event, because 137 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:56,600 we did just pass an anniversary for that case in particular, we do want 138 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,600 to emphasize that even if the case does eventually fall off the table, we 139 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,759 are definitely not in any way going to give up on Anna, Maria and 140 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,600 Daniel's case. So until it has proven one way or the other that they 141 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:11,000 either are a part or are not a part, we're still going to treat 142 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:15,639 them as such, and we are still going to offer all the support that 143 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,480 we can to the Phelps and Lour families. And as you mentioned, Christen, 144 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:24,360 we just passed the thirty fourth anniversary. They died over Labor Day weekend 145 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,559 nineteen eighty nine, and it's been thirty four years since their murder. It's 146 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,039 a sad anniversary. And as you've mentioned before, Kristen, three of the 147 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,840 four double homicides here are all clustered together. In the next six weeks or 148 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:43,120 so, this is a time of year where we're thinking about all of the 149 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,960 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. We're going to be celebrating Keith's life in 150 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,320 a couple of weeks, and at the same time, we're going to be 151 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,519 marking the passage of yet another year for three of the four double homicides in 152 00:11:54,519 --> 00:12:00,120 this case. We're actually going to go ahead and present a question next from 153 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,360 Mary Dowski. I think I can share her name because I'm about to share 154 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,159 that she is Becky's cousin. So Becky Dowsky's cousin. Mary actually asked us 155 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:13,840 on the social media page. Was Becky's past boyfriend from the UAE totally investigated 156 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,159 and found not to be a suspect. It's been so long, I don't 157 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,480 remember if he left the country immediately after speaking to authorities or no. Can 158 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,000 you speak to that Bill? I can. We're not going to mention his 159 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,720 name, because again, we want to be fair to everybody. There's nothing 160 00:12:30,759 --> 00:12:35,440 that proves that this man is involved in Becky's murder. Becky's college boyfriend, 161 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,399 who was a few years older than she was and also attending William and Mary 162 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,879 at the time she was a senior. He had dated her. As we 163 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:52,200 understand it, he took the relationship much more seriously than Becky did. He 164 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:58,559 was looked at as a suspect, not necessarily to my level of satisfaction. 165 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:05,440 I still think there are aspects to this man's life that were worthy of further 166 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:09,559 exploration. It's difficult to get a straight answer out of the FBI, I'm 167 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,360 sure for me to say that a few times as to what exactly they did 168 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:20,360 to look into this man's whereabouts. He was from the United Arab Emirates, 169 00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:26,759 which is a very conservative Muslim dominated country. This is in the nineteen eighties. 170 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:31,360 At the time, William and Mary was really promoting itself to international students, 171 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,840 particularly students from the Middle East, and they had attracted a fair number 172 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,840 of students from that part of the world. For what it's worth, the 173 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:46,519 penalty for homosexuality in that part of the world was death. But it's just 174 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:54,159 worthy of note. Supposedly this man was in Washington, DC the weekend that 175 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,320 Kathy and Becky were murdered. I've talked to you about this before, Kristen. 176 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,399 I think that's a week us now. Remember this is before cell phones, 177 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,720 and so someone's whereabouts are a little harder to pin down. But what's 178 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:11,840 the distance would you say, from Williamsburg to Washington, DC. I'm actually 179 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:16,879 google mapping that right the second. It is one hundred and nine miles between 180 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:20,919 here and Washington, DC. So if I wanted to get to DC, 181 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,360 I could leave now and be there in two hours and fifteen minutes according to 182 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:30,279 Google Maps. And that's width traffic too, by the way. Yeah, 183 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,440 so from my point of view, and again Google Maps didn't exist back then 184 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,840 either, of course, in nineteen eighty six, two hours and fifteen minutes 185 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,279 or so, I don't think that's that strong an alibi. Supposedly he was 186 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:50,600 in DC that weekend, given the fact that he could have killed Kathy and 187 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:56,600 Becky and driven to DC, established himself as being in DC that weekend. 188 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,080 In other words, we make sure you're seeing in public and that sort of 189 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,200 thing. Still always felt from the very beginning that this guy deserved a second 190 00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:07,840 look. I've done a fair amount of research on him. He went on 191 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:13,200 to graduate school, also in Virginia. After he graduated from william and Mary 192 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:18,360 he has had a brilliant career as a computer scientist. He was quite successful. 193 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:22,919 He worked for a number of very large companies, including names that we 194 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,799 would all know. He is married. He lives in Austin, Texas. 195 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,399 His wife's an artist. They have a couple of kids. I know a 196 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,919 fair amount about him. I know where he lives, the whole thing. 197 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,919 I'm not an investigator, but I know how to use a computer. I 198 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:41,879 never felt that he was sufficiently investigated, but there's nothing that highlights his involvement. 199 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:45,759 One thing I did think at the time, and I've thought about it 200 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,039 quite a bit since, there are aspects to Kathy and Becky's murder that to 201 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,120 me feel consistent with what they call an honor killing in the Middle East, 202 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,159 which is an absurd expression. But when men pardon me while I roll my 203 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,159 eyes, are dishonored by the women in their lives in the Middle East, 204 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:11,159 they are often brutally murdered. The use of rope, knives and fire in 205 00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:17,039 Kathy and Becky's murder is consistent with an honor killing. Supposedly, this guy 206 00:16:17,159 --> 00:16:21,039 was really upset when he found out that Becky was breaking up with him, 207 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,320 and then really enraged when he found out he'd been thrown over for a woman. 208 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,120 Now does that all add up to murder? I don't know. It's 209 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,559 definitely a possibility, one that's not been fully explored, at least not to 210 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:41,679 my satisfaction. Our next question comes from Carla Pe and it's our favorite current 211 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:48,320 rabbit hole to go down Bell And I think anybody who's local who's followed this 212 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,919 case is familiar with this name. And even though this I don't even want 213 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:56,440 to call him a gentleman, even though this person has passed recently, we 214 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,480 are we're going to go ahead and use his name. The question is, 215 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:07,359 has run Little and his security quotation marks company Angel been exhausted? Was Laurie 216 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,359 Ann Powell, also a victim of the Colonial Parkway murderer. Rabbit hole time, 217 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:18,759 rabbit hole time. Thank you Carla for the question. Yeah, let's 218 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:25,359 see if we can get through this fairly concisely. Ron Little was a criminal 219 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:27,920 from New Zealand. He died about it's coming up on two years ago, 220 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,759 if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, he had emigrated to the United States and 221 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:40,680 he's got a very checkered past, both personally and professionally. He ended up 222 00:17:40,759 --> 00:17:45,559 moving to southern California, where he met and married a woman. They had 223 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:48,440 a child together, and then he broke up with her. More or less 224 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:56,799 and moved to Virginia. He was attending college in Virginia and working for a 225 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,279 security company, Liberty Security, which is owned by a man named John Hawthorne, 226 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:08,119 who's a former Gloucester County Deputy sheriff. Supposedly, Ron Little Urchiest the 227 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:14,839 company from John Hawthorne after working there for some time. I questioned whether that 228 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,799 was a real sale or what they call a strawman sale, which is a 229 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,279 fake sale. I think John Hawthorne may have maintained some interest in the company, 230 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:27,880 and perhaps I'm not even certain that Ron Little would have had the cash 231 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,640 to buy a security company. Liberty Security was a small security agency that provided 232 00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:41,119 security for department stores convenience stores. People remember Roses still are a couple of 233 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,759 Roses around which is a department store if I'm not correct, Yes, the 234 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:51,960 department store I guess equated with Kmart and then also Little Sue and other convenience 235 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:59,799 stores in the area. And they also trained security guards for roles in these 236 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:04,920 retail establishments as well as some private investigators. Strangely, Ron Little, despite 237 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,440 the fact that he had a criminal background in New Zealand, he was involved 238 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:14,319 in auto faff, drug dealing, and other sketchy matters in New Zealand. 239 00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:19,440 Somehow he was permitted to acquire gun permits in Virginia and then to purchase a 240 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:26,559 security company, at least on paper. Ron Little managed to insert himself in 241 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:32,839 a very public way in the Colonial Parkway murders, much like Fred Atwell had 242 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:37,759 done. Some years later, ron Little claimed that he was being harassed by 243 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:42,799 the FBI and law enforcement, including the i NAS, the Immigration and Naturalization 244 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:48,039 Service, and he went public with a very strange letter, which we explored 245 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:52,680 in another episode of Mind Over Murder a while back. We can link to 246 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,119 that in the show notes here if you're interested in learning more about Ron Little. 247 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,759 He wrote this very odd letter to a number of me media people, 248 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,839 to President Bush who was president at that time, and a whole bunch of 249 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,960 other people Oprah included. It was the nineteen eighties, claiming that he was 250 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,119 being harassed by the FBI, and at the same time he was making these 251 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:18,400 public pronouncements on local television and in other media, claiming that he knew who 252 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,559 was involved in the Colonial Parkway murders and then he was going to help solve 253 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:27,880 the case. He inserted himself in a very strange Way. Ultimately, he 254 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,000 was deported from the United States after being arrested by the FBI. He was 255 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,799 deported by the i NS and the FBI in August nineteen eighty nine, which 256 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,039 roughly lines up with the end of what we refer to as the Colonial Parkway 257 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,920 murders. I can't say for certain that ron Little has any involvement there. 258 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,359 He did own this security company. After he purchased the company, he changed 259 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,000 the name to Advance Security and claimed to be the owner of the company. 260 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,519 He was returned to New Zealand, where he lived for a number of years. 261 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:07,960 He died a couple of years ago, and then very curiously his family. 262 00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:12,480 He has five children by five different women, two in the US, 263 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:17,480 both of whom he married, and three in New Zealand he was not married 264 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:22,640 to those women. Is five grown children by five different mothers. The New 265 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,720 Zealand contingent the three kids that he had in New Zealand approached me a couple 266 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,440 of years ago, shortly before his death, and said that their father had 267 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,039 claimed to have been involved in a series of unsolved murders in Virginia, which 268 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:41,200 I agree is an odd thing for your father to tell you. He would 269 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,839 have been discussing this as far back as when his kids were teenagers and were 270 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:51,279 still trying to pin down many of the aspects of what it is that Ron 271 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,359 Littell told his family. I use the word family. It's a very unusual 272 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:02,319 group of people in that with the five different relationships with the five different women, 273 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,039 these young people who are now in their thirties, for the most part, 274 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,920 they don't even know each other. And interestingly, one of the kids, 275 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,839 one of the sons, said to me, you actually know more about 276 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:18,920 my family than I do, because I had studied the family and tried to 277 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,279 figure out who was who and where they were. It's a very curious situation 278 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:29,400 that I am still very interested in exploring. To Carlo's question, we don't 279 00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:37,039 feel that the run little liberty security slash advanced security angle has been explored sufficiently 280 00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,119 at all. We think there is a lot more to this, at least 281 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:48,440 potentially to this, and we do agree it's intensely curious and odd that a 282 00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:52,960 man would tell his teenage children, yes, I was involved in a series 283 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,240 of unsolved murders in great detail, by the way, much of which lines 284 00:22:56,319 --> 00:23:00,960 up with the Colonial Parkway murders. He didn't refer to them as the Colonial 285 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,720 Parkway murders. He didn't mention specific victims by name, but he told them 286 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:11,839 some very curious stories before his death from cancer a couple of years ago about 287 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:18,599 his potential involvement in the case. I want to make sure we get to 288 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,839 the second part of Carlos question, which is was Laurie Powell a victim of 289 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,599 the Colonial Parkway murderer? And I think that if we need to continue to 290 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,519 explore Ron Little, then I think we do need to take a look at 291 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:36,839 Laurie an Powell and move her look at her potentially as being not a Parkway 292 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,960 adjacent case, but as a case related to Ron Little. So if it 293 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:45,799 does turn out, for example, that Ron Little and his security company were 294 00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:51,279 involved in the deaths of Keith Call and Sandy Hailey, David Dublin, and 295 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,279 Robin Edwards, then we also do need to look at Laurie and Powell because 296 00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:59,920 she did work for Ron Little. I feel like there's even calling Lorian's case 297 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,039 parkway adjacent. I feel like there's a Zen diagram for some of these cases 298 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:07,960 where bits and pieces overlap, but not all of them do. So Lorian 299 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:14,039 Powell doesn't necessarily link to every single of the cases. But definitely she has 300 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,559 some ties in with Ron Little and the connection to Liberty Security. Are the 301 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,519 authorities looking at her as a victim of the Colonial Parkway murders? I don't 302 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,240 believe so, Bill. Have you ever heard the FBI comment one way or 303 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:30,880 the other about Lorian Powell or Brian Pettinger. No, I've talked to them 304 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,839 about both of those young people. And just to refresh everybody's memory, Lorian 305 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,200 Powell is a young woman that was murdered around the same time as Keith call. 306 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,400 She worked at Liberty Security as a secretary and bookkeeper. Right around the 307 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:55,640 same time that she was murdered. Another young man named Brian Pettinger who also 308 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,799 worked at Liberty Security. So these people worked with Ron Little. Pettinger was 309 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,039 also brutally murdered. In both of these examples, they were stabbed and their 310 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:11,519 bodies were dumped in bodies of water. Do you recall which ones? Brian 311 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:17,119 Pattnger was found in Chuckatuck Creek and Laurie was found in the James River. 312 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,359 In addition to two people Brian Pattinger and Laurie and Powell who were both murdered 313 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,680 right around the same time as Keith Kahl and Cassandra Haley. There's also two 314 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:33,079 other connections that were aware of between two of the victims in the Colonial Parkway 315 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,799 murders and Liberty Security as well, and this is what Christian's talking about with 316 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:45,440 the ven diagram. Robin Edwards mother Bonnie Edwards, also worked at Liberty Security 317 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,279 in the office, so there's that connection. And then a bit more tenuous 318 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,559 but worth mentioning Terry Hailey, sister of Sandy, had worked as a police 319 00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:04,519 officer with a form were Gloucester County Deputy sheriff who had moonlighted at Liberty Security 320 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:11,160 and was a running buddy with Ron Little. That's a curious connection as well. 321 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:17,119 And his name is has often been mentioned in connection with the Colonial Parkway 322 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,880 murders. We're not saying he's involved now. The dating relationship is obviously a 323 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,839 bit more tenuous, it's nonetheless part of a pattern we're seeing here. So 324 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,400 by my count, that's four interconnections in the murders of six young people, 325 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,640 Robin Edwards and David Nobling, Keith Collin, Cassandra Haley, Lorian Powell and 326 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,640 Brian Pettinger, all of whom have a direct or a dotted line connection to 327 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,680 Liberty Security. It sounds to me like they need a little bit more looking 328 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:55,079 into. But what do we know. We're just podcasters. You're listening to 329 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,079 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 330 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:21,720 We're back here at Mind over Murder. Next question comes from Jessica, and 331 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,759 this is something that we explored a little bit with our guest Kate Miles, 332 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:30,559 when she guested with us, not once, but twice. There's some overlap 333 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,720 here with her book Trailed, which by the way, is up for a 334 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:41,720 Clue Award at the upcoming Crime con yay for Kate. The question from Jessica 335 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:48,920 is where was known Serrio Keiller Richard Mark Evanets in October of nineteen eighty six. 336 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,440 He was twenty three and in the Navy at the time and seems to 337 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,640 be the likely perpetrator in the Shenandoah murders of Julie Williams and Lollywiden's, a 338 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:03,119 case that does bear some resemblance to Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. This is 339 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,559 something that the FBI has looked at, and they've mentioned Richard Markovonets. To 340 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:14,079 me, on a number of occasions he was in the area. I can't 341 00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:18,200 say definitively in October nineteen eighty six, but he had served in the Navy 342 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:26,480 and had served in Norfolk. Service records for individual members of the United States 343 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:33,039 Armed Services are not something that anyone can acquire, so this isn't something that 344 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,279 I've ever been able to see a copy of. Katherine Miles Kate, in 345 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,440 her new book Trailed, does explore the possibility that Richard Markovonets could have been 346 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,799 involved in the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. Jessica, you are 347 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:53,519 correct that case of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans is often compared to the murder 348 00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:59,839 of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. They are admittedly ten years apart. Kathy 349 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,319 Thomas and Rebeccadowski in eighty six, Julie Williams and Loy wins in nineteen ninety 350 00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:11,240 six. They are both lesbian couples killed on three day weekends in national parks. 351 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:18,559 They were both restrained with rope or other ties, and both killed outdoors, 352 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:22,279 so there's a lot of similarities. And even the FBI said they were 353 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:29,119 exploring substantial similarities. That was the expression they used back in nineteen ninety six 354 00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:33,319 between the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Widens, and specifically the murder of 355 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:40,079 Kathy Thomason Rebeccadowski. Now the Shenandoah, as Kristen can tell you, is 356 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:42,279 about one hundred and eighty miles away. We are talking about a ten year 357 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:49,839 gap. So it's a possibility one that I think needs further exploration as to 358 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:56,960 whether Abonnets could have been involved. He's now deceased. Kate continues to pursue 359 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,880 these avenues even after the published data her book, and we've talked to her 360 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,920 within the last couple of months. She's still definitely working on This would be 361 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,319 very interesting to see if VANETs could be tied in to the Williams Winan's case. 362 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:14,880 I'm not sure he's involved in Kathy and Becky's murder, but it's definitely 363 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:21,160 something that deserves further exploration. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, and that is 364 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,759 something that I hope I just we were talking, we were alluding to this 365 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:27,960 earlier off air Bill and I'm just going to go ahead and say it because 366 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,599 it's to feel I need to prevent my spleen for just a second, and 367 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,119 it can't always be used. Sometimes it's going to be me too, Go 368 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,319 right ahead. I I wish that the FBI and I know that we don't 369 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:44,599 know all of what they do, or even half of what they do, 370 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,960 because they don't tell us anything. But I really wish that they were a 371 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,160 little more open and creative in their thinking as to what may or may not 372 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,720 be connected. And I really wish that they were willing to spend more time 373 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,480 running down leads, even if it seems like those leads are old. I 374 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:08,039 really wish that they would spend more time checking out connections between these various cases. 375 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:14,880 I I feel like every couple of years, not every couple of decades, 376 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,599 but every couple of years, somebody needs to go through and check their 377 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,000 work and be like, Hello, have you looked at this again recently? 378 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,279 Maybe you can run that down a second or third time. I can't sit 379 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:30,119 here in good conscience and say that I feel the FBI has done everything that 380 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,440 they can to solve these cases, because I don't feel that way. I 381 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,400 really don't, and I don't think you feel that way either. Not to 382 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,559 put words in your mouth or anything no, I agree with everything you just 383 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:47,680 said. I really just wish that there was I wish that there was some 384 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:53,839 accountability over the FBI rather than allowing the FBI to police themselves. I wish 385 00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:59,000 that there's some larger agency that would look in on cases like this and go, 386 00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:02,200 hey, you guys actually doing anything here, Like how's this come in? 387 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:07,359 I feel like there's not a lot of accountability there, and I want 388 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,519 somebody to be accountable for this. I want somebody And I don't know who 389 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:14,559 that person would be or what body that would be, but I want somebody 390 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:16,799 to look over at these cases and go, you know what, there's plenty 391 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:21,000 of evidence here, and it's been thirty seven years for the oldest of these. 392 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,799 Maybe I don't know, maybe it's time we hand this off to someone 393 00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:28,240 else. That's not going to happen, but I want it to. I 394 00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:34,000 completely support everything you just said. I don't normally get that way, by 395 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,079 like for our listeners, I don't normally get that way. I don't normally 396 00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:39,240 decide that I'm going to just sit here and have a righteous monologue about the 397 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,000 whole entire thing. But I'm in a bit of a mood today with regard 398 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:46,920 to the FBI, and I just I would just like to see more accountability. 399 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,359 That's been a theme this last couple of weeks of going back to school 400 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,680 is accountability, and so it's it's on my mind, it's in my brain 401 00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:58,680 pan and if we're going to use that word, then I want the FBI 402 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:01,359 to have some because I feel like it really hasn't when it comes to this 403 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,920 case. They're doing amazing work on other cases. They did amazing coming in 404 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,559 and working on the Long Island serial killing case. That's fantastic. Can we 405 00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:15,599 please get some of that mojo over here? I'm with you, all right. 406 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,119 Our next question comes from Andrea s. C. This is actually really 407 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,839 it's an interesting question. It's a good one. I think a lot of 408 00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:28,519 it does come in relation to Patricia Cornwell's all that remains. Andrea asks, 409 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,279 was anyone at either CHEETAHM Annex which is the Navy weapons station, or Camp 410 00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:36,880 Perry, which is the CIA training base around here. It's supposed to be 411 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,480 secret, but it's not. Actually was anyone either cheatam an X or Camp 412 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:45,160 Perry ever questioned? Given their proximity to the Parkway. Additionally, we're other 413 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,440 sections of the Parkway searched for evidence. Let's deal with the Navy base and 414 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,039 the CIA base. First, Bill, what do you know about anyone being 415 00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:58,680 questioned at cheatahm Anx. I'm not aware of anyone being questioned. I am 416 00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:04,680 aware of the fact that they did check records to see who was going on 417 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,840 and off base at Cheetah Mannix, specifically Camp Perry. I'm less aware there 418 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:17,079 have been some wild theories about Camp Perry trainees. I guess you'd say going 419 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:24,119 rogue and trying out techniques on assassinations along the Colonial Parkway. I think these 420 00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:29,840 are absurd theories. That's full Patricia Cornwell stuff. I don't think it would 421 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,119 ever be there if it weren't for all the remains now, I think she's 422 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:37,559 promoted a fair amount of just wrong handed theories about the Colonial Parkway murders in 423 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:44,760 her book. All that remains Cheat of Mannix is immediately proximate to where Kathy 424 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:50,199 and Becky were likely murdered, and the Cheetah Mannix Overlook is where Kathy's car 425 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,159 was found, and you can see the annex in the distance, perhaps a 426 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:58,440 mile away across the water, and that's a place where maybe ships are loaded 427 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,559 with high explosives, including nuclear weapons. The Camp Perry thing seems like a 428 00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:08,760 stretch Cheatam Annex less not aware of anybody ever being questioned there. All right, 429 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,320 let's get into the other sections of the parkway that we're searched for evidence. 430 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,119 We did discuss last time about whether or not cadaver dogs had been allowed 431 00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:22,880 onto the parkway. The parkway is twenty three miles long, and so there 432 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:30,840 are many areas that are not immediately approximate to Keith and Sandra's at dumpsite where 433 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,480 the car was found in Kathy and Becky's So what do we know, if 434 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,559 anything, about other sections of the parkway that we're searched for evidence or were 435 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:44,079 they We don't know a lot. We know that searching was conducted. I 436 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:49,039 know in Kathey and Becky's case, they searched for a murder weapon along the 437 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:55,159 fence line at Cheatam Annex, which is immediately adjacent to the Ringfield plantation, 438 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,880 which is a possible site of Kathy and Becky's actual as opposed to the dump 439 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:06,880 site the Cheetah Manic's overlook where the car was found. And in Keith and 440 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:13,239 Sandy's example, there was pretty extensive searching on the ground along the banks of 441 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:19,079 the York River, and I've seen photographs of divers looking for Keith and Sandy's 442 00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,239 remains. As a matter of fact, when they were searching for Keith and 443 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,800 Sandy's remains, they actually found the remains of another man who was someone who 444 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,119 would they think had died after he had jumped up and pushed off a ship 445 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:37,679 that was sailing likely outbound on the York River heading towards the Atlantic. So 446 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,199 there were barely extensive searches at the time of Keith and Sandy's disappearance. I 447 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,400 know dogs were used. We discussed the fact that dogs were used back in 448 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,760 nineteen eighty eight when Keith and Sandy first went missing and then brought back at 449 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,239 different times, including in twenty ten, as we talked about in our last 450 00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:00,320 episode, the cadaver dogs were searching for Keith and Sandy's remains. So I 451 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,320 can't tell you definitively where on the Parkway, And as you mentioned, Kristen, 452 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,360 it's twenty three miles long, so we're talking about a lot of different 453 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:13,239 places and a lot of places. Two rivers, the James and York Rivers, 454 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,360 swamps, woods, there's a lot of ground to cover there. It 455 00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:23,199 certainly searched, particularly for Keith and Sandy, and so far without any success. 456 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:30,159 Yeah, they're the biggest issue I think with looking for Keith and Sandy 457 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:34,440 on sections of the parkway is just that it is so massive, I think 458 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,199 Bill. I think it was maybe the first year that we started working together, 459 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,840 we had someone get a hold of us, and I ultimately ended up 460 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,199 going to meet someone out in the woods. Thankfully, I had the forethought 461 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,039 to bring an early male friend with me. Remember this, Do you remember 462 00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:55,480 this? Yeah? It was It was somebody who thought that they had found 463 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:01,320 They thought they had found what may have been some belonging of Keith's. Ultimately 464 00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:06,840 they were not and wanted me to take a look at a site. And 465 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,239 then there were also some bones that were found, although they did not seem 466 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,119 to be human bones and were more likely like peg or horse or oxen. 467 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:20,440 I am not the bone whisperer, so I do not have any way of 468 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:23,320 knowing that for certain, but I know we took some photos. There is 469 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,840 a lot of grounds to cover, and so even the area where I went 470 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,079 to meet this person, and I'm still feeling thinking on that, then maybe 471 00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:36,760 that wasn't my brightest move in the whole entire world. But when we're given 472 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,760 that information, there are times when we just don't really have a choice. 473 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:45,039 So I went with my burly male friend. But that section was in closer 474 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,880 to Colonel Williamsburg. It was not on the section of the parkway close to 475 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:53,119 the York River where Kathy and Becky were or Keith and Sandy were. There's 476 00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:58,280 just so much of the parkway, and it does run through like you said, 477 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,320 Bill, it runs along two differ rivers. There's swampland there's wetland, 478 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,519 but then there's also a portion of it that runs right through Colonial Williamsburg. 479 00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,719 There is so much ground to cover. I would love to see like a 480 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,760 full scale search of the parkway. But I think also at that point it 481 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,679 would be like to what end? Like where do we stop? Do we 482 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,239 do the whole entire twenty three miles? What do we do? Yeah? 483 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,000 I recognize it's a challenging situation. Yeah, without question. And look, 484 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:29,039 there are a lot of people that feel that regarding Keith and Sandy. Who 485 00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:31,639 are the missing people that we're talking about here, Because all of the other 486 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:37,199 bodies were ultimately recovered, we're not even certain that Keith and Sandy ever were 487 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,960 on the Parkway. Yeah, that does become problematic too. As we talked 488 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,079 We've known ye as we talked about last week, the Parkway isn't even on 489 00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:52,960 the way home, Yeah, from Christopher Newport University where they were last seen 490 00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:58,239 at a party at around one or one thirty am, heading home for what 491 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,679 we believe is at two am curf. The Parkway is at fifteen to twenty 492 00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:06,000 minutes out of the way, as you mentioned last time, Kristen. So 493 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:10,000 it's quite possible that the York River overlook where Keith's car was found is a 494 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:15,519 dump site for a car only. And then there's also the possibility the York 495 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:21,000 River, which is very deep and powerful at that point and big enough for 496 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,840 US Navy ships to be sailing by, if somehow Keith and Sandy were forced 497 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,599 to enter the water or shot or something like that and their body's dumped in 498 00:40:30,639 --> 00:40:35,840 the water, we might never recover them. So there's a lot of different 499 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:40,280 factors here that I recognize. We can keep searching forever, and I'm not 500 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,119 opposed to searching. There have been times when our FBI agents have said there 501 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:51,440 were specific places they'd like to take a look at and hopefully they've taken the 502 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,719 opportunity to do that. This is a really tough situation because we don't even 503 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,119 know that Keith and Sandy ever actually made it to the Parkway. We've had 504 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:04,679 people in the past who have reached out to us and said, have you 505 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,880 ever checked out anything on Crawford Road. Crawford Road is also an area that 506 00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:14,400 is it is known as a body dump site. There have been bodies dumped 507 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,719 in the woods around Crawford Road. There's also a little covered bridge down there 508 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,960 that all the kids say is haunted. There's all sorts of crazy stuff. 509 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:24,159 But we've had plenty of people reach out and say, oh, no, 510 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,159 they were probably never on the Parkway, but have you checked Crawford Road. 511 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,760 We could check all the wooded areas and creepy roads around here for years on 512 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,519 end, and there would never be any way of determining we're exactly they went 513 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:42,480 to after the party. I think it's entirely possible that maybe they went to 514 00:41:42,519 --> 00:41:47,119 get into keys car and somebody pulled a gun on them and from there they 515 00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:51,239 never did make it onto the Parkway. I don't know. There's so many 516 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,920 different things, and that's what the call in the Haley case, I think 517 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:57,400 is one of the most confounding and frustrating because there are so many things we 518 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,800 do not know. We are never going to know sort of a full confession 519 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,719 from someone. We're never going to know exactly what happened. We're not going 520 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,400 to know cause of death, We're not going to know time of death. 521 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,480 There are so many things and that's very frustrating. It also makes it really 522 00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:14,039 hard to pick out whether or not if this is a serial killer. And 523 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,079 I know neither of us really think that anymore, but if it is, 524 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,519 we'd have no way of being able to ascertain that we're missing cause of death 525 00:42:21,559 --> 00:42:24,920 and manner for two of the victims. Very frustrating. We're going to wrap 526 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:31,000 up our Suspects episode with one final question from Sarah Sarah p Asks. Did 527 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,679 the police or the FBI ever look into Stuart Duke as a suspect. He 528 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,159 was convicted of killing a guy in the mid nineties and dumping the body in 529 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,639 Late Gaston. Maybe this was not his first time. I can't say for 530 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:52,519 sure that they looked at Stuart Douglas Duke Junior, who's now changed his name 531 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:59,800 to Punolero Dancing Buck apparently. I'm sorry to say that again, Punolero Dancing 532 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:04,800 Buck. He's legally changed his name. He did kill a man in November 533 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,760 nineteen ninety four. His victim's name was Kenneth Villa, and apparently he stabbed 534 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,920 the man minister via a one hundred and thirty one times before dumping his body 535 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,400 in Lake Gaston near the John Carr Dam, which was considered the deepest part 536 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,480 of the lake. I don't know if the FBI has ever looked at this 537 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:30,760 man. I'm not sure I see the connection. I found recent articles that 538 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,800 said that he was denied parole. He's now seventy years old, but he's 539 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,960 still considered to be a risk to the community. I'm not sure if he 540 00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:49,119 has any connection to the Williamsburg area or not, but it's something that the 541 00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:52,960 FBI and the Virginia State Police certainly would have been aware of. And he 542 00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:59,840 is currently incarcerated under the care of the Virginia Department of Corrections and he is 543 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:07,079 in augusta correctional center in Gregsville, Virginia. Nice place to be. Actually, 544 00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:08,559 you know what, let's end on one more question and I like this. 545 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:14,239 We were both really tickled by this question. And we've been trying to 546 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,880 figure out, like, how are we going to answer this? I think 547 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,519 if we have a hot mic in front of us, maybe we can come 548 00:44:19,559 --> 00:44:22,360 up with something interesting. So here's the question. And this is a sort 549 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,639 of a late breaking question from Virginia P And Virginia asks, what is the 550 00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:32,719 most interesting piece of information you have that most people don't know and won't hurt 551 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,280 the investigation if made public? I love that question. I just I've been 552 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:44,519 racking my brain trying to figure out how can I answer this. Wow, 553 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:51,800 there's a lot of stuff that we know that we can't necessarily share. Yeah, 554 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,800 that's the problem. I'll go on a little bit of a skinny branch 555 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:02,199 here. Okay, the FBI is listening, so be careful. Based on 556 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:10,760 conversations with law enforcement, I believe that investigators have suspects that they believe are 557 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,079 involved in the Colonial Parkway murders. But the suspects who are on the short 558 00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:20,760 list, as we talked about a few minutes ago, to my eye, 559 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:29,679 look more like individual offenders responsible for one of the double homicides in this series, 560 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,960 rather than a serial killer who may be responsible for three or four of 561 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,079 the double homicides. And the Colonial Parkway murders. So I think the leading 562 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:45,599 suspects in the Colonial Parkway murders look and feel like they might only be responsible 563 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:51,920 for one of the Colonial Parkway murders. It's possible we may not be looking 564 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:57,239 at a series of murders, but perhaps a series of independent events. I 565 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,599 like his answer. Can to copy his answer everybody? And this actually to 566 00:46:01,639 --> 00:46:06,079 the teacher who says, do your own work, I'm asking, can I 567 00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:08,239 use that answer? I think that's great. I'm sure. I really am 568 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,840 trying to come up with what is the most interesting, singular piece of information 569 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,679 that I know that isn't going to hurt anything. And because I'm paranoid enough 570 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,719 to think that anything I say is going to hurt the investigation, I'm almost 571 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,559 afraid to say anything. I'm going to tweak the question just slightly and give 572 00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:31,599 an interesting piece of trivia that maybe most people don't know. You and I 573 00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:35,519 know it, of course, and maybe some other people who pay super close 574 00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:38,639 attention to the pod. But I think maybe a lot of people out there 575 00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:45,000 in the world don't know that one of the bones from Anna Maria Phelps's hand 576 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:51,079 was sent to the Smithsonian Institute to have some testing done on it. I 577 00:46:51,119 --> 00:46:55,760 always thought that was very interesting. And if anybody watched the long running hit 578 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,880 TV series Bones, I don't even know if you watch this bill. Did 579 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,360 you watch Bones now? I never did. Bones is based in the Jeffersonian 580 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,920 Institute of the Smithsonian, and the Smithsonian actually has a whole vault out of 581 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:15,599 public view in which there are bones, bone fragments, in some cases whole 582 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,400 entarire human bodies that are sent to the Smithsonian for analysis. I always thought 583 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,880 it was very interesting that Anna Maria Phelps fingerbone, which ultimately had a nickmark 584 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,199 in it from a knife. I always thought it was cool that was sent 585 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,920 to the Smithsonian for analysis. To the best of my knowledge, that didn't 586 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,840 happen with any of the other cases. I believe you're correct. So that's 587 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,119 my interesting trivia piece. And I'm sure that there are going to be people 588 00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:39,280 out here who were, like I knew that, Max to give us more, 589 00:47:39,639 --> 00:47:44,400 but I'm just paranoid enough and I don't want my own run in with 590 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,960 the FBI enough that I don't want to say anymore beyond that. We're only 591 00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:54,440 about halfway through our ask us anything questions. So I guess you lovely listeners 592 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:59,159 are in for yet another episode of Ask us Anything, but we're going to 593 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:05,400 wrap it up with DNA questions. Next time, FG questions all of the 594 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:08,400 sciency stuff, and then there are a couple of random we'll throw it out 595 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,440 there and see what you answer questions that will knock out as well. Thank 596 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,159 you so much for listening to this episode of Mind or Murder. We do 597 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,320 appreciate you listening, and we appreciate your support of the Colonial Parkway murders, 598 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,239 their families, and us, your hard working podcast hosts. We do encourage 599 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,440 you over the next couple of days. If you are planning on going to 600 00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:31,079 crime Con, we are out for an award at the Clue Awards. We 601 00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:35,119 are up for Creator of the Year. So if you are going to crime 602 00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:38,559 Con and this is open only to crime Con attendees, if you are going 603 00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:44,760 to crime Con, please vote for us on our social media page for Creators 604 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,000 of the Year. You can just go to the link. You can click 605 00:48:47,079 --> 00:48:52,559 the box underneath our name and one check mark will go in our corner. 606 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,000 I almost feel like I shouldn't vote for myself, but you're darn right, 607 00:48:55,159 --> 00:49:00,800 I'm going to vote for myself. Okay, Thank you for listening to this 608 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:14,480 episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 609 00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:20,559 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 610 00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:24,920 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 611 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,039 theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 612 00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:36,400 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 613 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,320 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 614 00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:45,320 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 615 00:49:45,840 --> 00:50:00,239 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.