WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:53.280 Then the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:53.960 --> 00:01:33.799 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:38.239 --> 00:02:10.759 the the the the do there's a lot of stuff in there, and are 4 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.159 just saying the distinction I made between the two senses of justification is not at 5 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:16.759 hok because we have one of them saying we are not just fly by works, 6 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.439 another person saying we are justified by works. That's why virtually every atheist 7 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.240 scholar will say that that's a contradiction, because they understand that verbally they are 8 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:28.879 saying we are justified by works, We're not just fly by works. If 9 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:32.199 you say that justification means the same thing in both cases, then you are 10 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:37.240 necessarily admitting a contradiction. In scripture. So when I say that words out 11 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:39.120 object and meaning, I don't mean every single word has the exact same meaning 12 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.879 every single time it's using the Bible. I mean the words of the Bible 13 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.039 have meaning. So we can use scripture, and we can use the premise 14 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:47.599 that scriptures and fallible, which we all agree with, to say that there 15 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:54.960 must be different senses of justification that they are talking about here. Then all 16 00:02:55.039 --> 00:03:00.159 right, welcome to open forum. I couldn't resist opening it up. Oh, 17 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:06.080 we had so many people in the chat commenting talking smack that I wanted 18 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:10.280 to give everybody a chance talking all that smack talking out a jazz to come 19 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:15.919 and make an argument, present their case, and to give them the floor. 20 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:24.240 And so I'm in a full red room redroom mode, red room red 21 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:32.759 room that means full on anger mode. I even unblocked and invited some people 22 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:39.240 like utter Paul, who I don't think are going to show up. But 23 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:46.960 let's go ahead and get to it since it's pretty late. Donnie Danny, 24 00:03:46.960 --> 00:04:01.280 Donnie Jo John Jordan, Yo, Hello, can you hear me? Yes, 25 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:10.000 sir, So I have a question about praying to the saints. So 26 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:15.319 I understand why you do it, and that's that you're not actually praying to 27 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.160 the saints to get forgiveness and whatever you're praying for from them, but that 28 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:28.279 they're just saying, what's intercessor. But I don't understand if it's a tradition 29 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.759 of man or a tradition of God. Did Jesus, like, did he 30 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:36.720 ever preach that we should be praying to the saints and have them as an 31 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.879 intercessor? Well, first of all, we don't just believe what Jesus said. 32 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:46.600 The entire revelation is what where we derive our doctrines from, and that's 33 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:49.079 the Old and the New Testament. So when the Book of Revelation says, 34 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:54.480 for example, in chapter five, when when he had taken the scroll, 35 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:59.199 the four living creatures fell down before the lamb, having a harp and golden 36 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.000 bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And as 37 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.680 we read the rest of that chapter in the subsequent chapters, we read that 38 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:12.399 underneath the altar in heaven, the saints in heaven are offering the prayers of 39 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:16.959 the saints on earth and praying for them. So those are liturgical examples. 40 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:21.040 That's John singing to heaven and singing the worship in heaven, and he's seeing 41 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:29.879 that they're worshiping, which includes offering up the prayers of the saints on earth 42 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.920 to the lamb in heaven. So it's called the communion of Saints. So 43 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:38.680 the doctrine of the community of Saints means that the saints are included in the 44 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.920 worship of the saints on earth, because, as Jesus says in the Gospel, 45 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.079 they're not dead, but they live to God. Hence Hebrews eleven says 46 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.920 that we're all part of the same heavenly city. So does that make sense? 47 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.720 This is why David and the Psalms, for example, can speak to 48 00:05:54.199 --> 00:06:00.319 and ask for the actions and intercession of the angels. Okay, yeah, 49 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:08.600 that makes sense. Yeah, that's a good question. Any other questions? 50 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.959 Okay, yeah, I have one more. I'm confused on what and this 51 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:19.000 might have been a question that was just asked. I just joined, so 52 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:30.480 I'm not sure, but what are the requirements for salvation? Because I've heard 53 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.560 i mean, well not just hurt, but I've seen the verse. I 54 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:39.360 don't have it on me, but that it's through faith alone. And then 55 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:45.160 there's also people that say it's faith and works or it's well, yeah, 56 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.240 that's really all I heard. It's faith and then or faith and works. 57 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:50.639 I don't really understand. Yeah, I mean, Jesus says that this is 58 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.759 the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent. So 59 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:59.120 even according to Christ, faith is a work. So of course that yes, 60 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.319 works are now because it works. Paul says, the only thing, 61 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:06.800 the only faith that saves is faith working in love. So that's not James 62 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:11.319 that's Paul. So that shows that James and Paul teach the same doctrine. 63 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:26.720 Ebsollent. Hey, yes, sir, Hey, I'm just wondering just as 64 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:34.279 a lay person or an Orthodox catechumen, his debates often get so far into 65 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:39.600 the weeds that at least for me, it's just it's hard to understand. 66 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:45.079 And I'm just wondering why, if you could speculate, why do you think 67 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.600 God makes it so complicated to you know, get to the get to the 68 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:53.240 truth. I guess, well it is and it isn't. I mean, 69 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:57.279 not everything is complicated. Not everybody has to get into theology or make these 70 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:03.079 decisions on the basis of some like you know, PhD level stuff. So 71 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:09.199 there's no you know, a lot of people find Christianity, convert, find 72 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:13.519 Orthodoxy for very simple reasons. They find the liturgy to be beautiful or esthetically 73 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.319 pleasing, so all of those things are kind of simple approaches. But I 74 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.120 mean there's no easy answer as to you know, why the world is complex 75 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.639 or why there's you know, I mean, I don't know just the way 76 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:30.279 it is, no, I hear it. I just sometimes I just get 77 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.399 frustrated, you know, I wonder, like if I need to, you 78 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.440 know, study harder, or I'm just not smart enough, or you know, 79 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.720 well what I mean, what specifically are you trying to suss out? 80 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:48.879 I don't know. I mean, I don't know if there's anything specifically. 81 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:54.679 It's just you know, when I think about like all the different sects of 82 00:08:54.759 --> 00:09:00.279 Christianity, and you know, people that you know are just are trying to 83 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.360 do the right thing and may have no idea that they're in error. You 84 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:05.960 know, I wonder about, you know, if they'll be said, you 85 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.080 know that kind of thing. Well, I mean, we leave that up 86 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.639 to God. So that's that's not really our you know, prerogative or place 87 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:16.840 to judge. Luigi, what's up man? Good job on the debate. 88 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:30.519 You got on mute? I can't hear you. Luigi, you want to 89 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.200 talk? Got a mute? Oh hey, good job, appreciate it. 90 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.120 Yeah, I just want to copa see say hi and see see what you 91 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.320 were talking about. Well, how did you feel about it? I felt 92 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:48.279 like it was pretty strong outing, pretty strong argumentation there. I felt like 93 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.720 he's got some I mean, I think he's got some stuff to think about, 94 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.799 you know. You know, he definitely used in different talking points than 95 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.720 I've heard before, But yeah, I just think what it comes down to 96 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.120 a lot of times with the father right, is like we have to look 97 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:05.159 at, first of all the context of these quote minds he's using, right, 98 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.159 And so that's what I was trying to do. Right when he brings 99 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.000 up Ironatis, right, is like, well, Irona says, if we 100 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.440 didn't have the scriptures, we'd be fine, right, because we're going to 101 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.720 reference the Apostolic you know, succession that we have, right, and so 102 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.000 like we have to we read the Fathers right. And this is what I 103 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.559 noticed as a Protestant, Like I would quote Stantaugustin, right, but then 104 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.559 San Augustine, you know, adamantly believe in apostoliccession. You believe you couldn't 105 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.399 be a Catholic church without it, right, And so it's like it's just 106 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.919 disingenious, right when we quote the quote the Fathers without without the context. 107 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.519 Yeah, exactly, That's what I was trying to expose. Yeah, I 108 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:39.360 was, uh, you know, I had this phase two when I was 109 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.519 a reformed person. I was trying to you know, make the church Fathers 110 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.279 into proto Protestants. So I think it's a it's a it's a thing that 111 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.360 we all do. But it really it's good. Really, it's really difficult 112 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:56.360 when you do spend time in the church fathers that you realize, well, 113 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.399 they all believe in, you know, things that we don't believe in. 114 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.000 Let's take a look, for example, that something that came up in the 115 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:05.360 debate that I thought was in the Q and A. It wasn't your fault. 116 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.519 It was just sort of passed over due to time. But if we 117 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:11.879 look at the Canons of Nicea, it's a very easy way to determine that 118 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.759 the church fathers at the Council of Nicea did not in any way have a 119 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:22.000 view amenable to Calvinism or Protestantism. For example, I've got them pulled up 120 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:26.200 here. Let's look at the canons at what the church fathers at Nicea believed. 121 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:33.159 Right away, we see that the canons deal with the episcopate, all 122 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:37.879 right, So there's an episcopacy. There is a structure of hierarchy. Let's 123 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:45.320 mention right away we have the threefold office of bishop, presbyter or, priest 124 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:50.679 and deacon. We have the mention of bishops being limited in their jurisdictions. 125 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.200 We have the mention of metropolitans, we have the notion that people can be 126 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:03.360 excommunicated right away. In Canon five we have again a hierarchical authority that can 127 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:11.000 excommunicate again things that are totally foreign to the Protestant Calvinist denomination which he comes 128 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.960 from. We have a mention of the pentarchy, or well what would become 129 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.120 the pentarchy, the early triarchy, I guess you could say, because at 130 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:28.879 this time it's just Alexander Rome Alexander in Egypt. We have the establishment of 131 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:35.000 canon law. Protestants don't believe or have canon law unless they're Anglicans. We 132 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:41.240 have the mention here of virgins and presbyters, and the notion of celibacy comes 133 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.879 up. We have in the canons here and the oblation of the offering, 134 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.000 so the Eucharus is called an offering here, which is a thing that all 135 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.600 classical Reformation people call a damnable heresy. So keep in mind that redeem Zuomer 136 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:03.519 is an ecumenist, and he's completely out of line with what the classical Reformers 137 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:07.440 believe. The classical Reformers killed each other over these issues, and so modern 138 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:11.840 day Protestants like to pretend that there's a unified Protestant tradition, which is just 139 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.440 simply not true. They were. I wanted to bring that up because like 140 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.879 in the English Revolution, like the Baptists and the Presbyterians, where like they 141 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.320 were an athetizing each other and kill each other. They were killing each other. 142 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.120 And yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually it's crazy because on the 143 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.519 topic of closed communion, it used to be where you had to get a 144 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:37.480 note from your pastor for permission to commune at a different parish if you were 145 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.200 traveling, right, and so this was this was in the Protestant churches right 146 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.320 in the in the reform churches. Like that's just absurd in today's world, 147 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.799 right, you know, today they go around and they just you know, 148 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.159 take community with whoever. But that's not how it always haspent. So in 149 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:54.159 many ways you're correct that like even someone like RZ who really does make an 150 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.360 attempt to hold the you know, the teachings of the you know, classical 151 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.360 reformers all short of what they were actually teaching. Yeah, we look at 152 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:05.000 the canon and goes on to talk about the Eucharist at the point of death. 153 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.720 Again, we have discussions about the offering of the Eucharist. We have 154 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:16.279 the rules for catechumens. How many churches you know still have catechumens or the 155 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:26.440 dox. We have statements about again excommunication, we have forbidding of certain things 156 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.360 that canon can't be done at the altar. No reform Reformed church has canon 157 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:37.039 laws about the altar. So this is all completely foreign to all the stuff 158 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:45.519 that he would believe. And so this shows that the mindset of the canon 159 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.080 of the Council of Nicea. Most Reformed people don't know there's canons of Nicia, 160 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.759 right. They think Nicia is just the niceing creed. They have no 161 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.080 idea what the canons of the of the Council of Nicea are. That's the 162 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:03.720 church law of Nicia. Nathan m hm. It was like five Protestants and 163 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:15.600 that all dropped off where they go. So people are saying, when you're 164 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.080 going to debate Utter Paul. I've asked Utter Paul many times to do a 165 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:24.440 debate and he's always declined. Uh, and so he decided to disappointed. 166 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:26.919 I was kind of disappointed in his objection. Honestly, that was kind of 167 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.279 disappointed. It was weak. I'm not I mean, that's why he doesn't 168 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.679 He knows he's not good at debate. That's why he won't do it. 169 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:41.120 He just likes to make videos trying to provoke people. So Nathan, what's 170 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:46.200 up make it? I'm mute. Hey there. Yeah, I'm a recent 171 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:54.000 convert and I was talking with convert to why you cut out convert to Eastern 172 00:15:54.120 --> 00:16:00.879 Orthodoxy, and I was talking with one of my Protestant friends and he mentioned 173 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.600 Matthew twenty three to nine, where it says call no man your father or 174 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:12.639 something like that. I was just wondering what the Orthodox position on that, 175 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:18.440 what was and like for the explanation, because we obviously call our priest's father, 176 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:23.919 So I was just wondering what the explanation or that was. Yeah, 177 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.720 so Paul calls Timothy his son in the faith, his spiritual son. That 178 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:34.600 means that he's Timothy's spiritual father. The Ten Commandments themselves say honor your father. 179 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.240 How could you honor your father if you can call no man father. 180 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:44.360 It's just being silly when Protestants have this sort of superstitious view that you can't 181 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:49.279 call anyone father. It's talking about don't call anyone father in the sense of 182 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:56.919 replacing God's role, because the Pharisees took on this role of displacing God. 183 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:03.039 And you even see that in the way that rabbinical Judaism operates to this day, 184 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:08.400 where the rabbis can basically trump and out debate and beat God. So 185 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:21.200 that's the very thing Jesus is talking about. Foster. Hello, Hello, 186 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:25.880 Yeah, what's up? Man? So I was I just had a question 187 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:32.480 about like infallibility of like councils and stuff like that. So I have like 188 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:37.400 two questions right here. So you would agree that a council is infallible if 189 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:45.400 the whole worth iton shirts accepts it, basically, right yeah. And also 190 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.279 at the same time, if you don't accept the council, you're just outside 191 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.200 of the church, right correct. So it isn't that like, I don't 192 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.559 know, sort of circular sort of because how do you know, maybe this 193 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.519 certain aduction maybe like household it's just like undecided, and so like you understand 194 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.799 the like sort of like circularity of it, or well, I mean, 195 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.519 at the end of the day, I don't reject circularity at a paradigm level. 196 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.279 It's unavoidable. So if you're gonna ask me, like what's my ultimate 197 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.400 authority and I say God, and you say what about the church fathers and 198 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.359 the councils, and I say, yes, those two and you say, 199 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.759 well, how do you know that they're right? And I appeal to God 200 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.599 and then I appeal to the Bible, and it's I admit that everybody's position 201 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.160 at a certain point will bottom out. You're only going to have one final 202 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.559 thing that you can appeal to. So yeah, it is actually at a 203 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.680 certain point circular because everybody ends up being circular. But that's different than the 204 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:51.480 question of vicious circularity, which has to deal with logical fallacies about first order 205 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.000 reasoning. So when you get into metal level questioning, you kind of can't 206 00:18:55.039 --> 00:19:00.960 avoid those kinds of circles because they're unavoidable. So it's two different questions. 207 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.599 So that in other words, and that was one of the critiques I would 208 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:08.599 have with the debate, not that Luigi messed up or anything wrong, but 209 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:15.200 throughout the debate, I don't think redeemed Zoomers aware of or understands the difference 210 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:21.640 between normativity and epistem exerted toude. They're two different things. So if you're 211 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.119 asking me, well, how do you have a better position about how you 212 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.480 go about learning things than anyone else, I don't. I'm in the same 213 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.759 boat as everyone else. And we've made that point a million times when we 214 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.400 talk about the Protestant or the Roman Catholic. The difference is that between the 215 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.680 protest and the Roman Catholic I have different means. So it's a question of 216 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.759 the means and the question of who's in line with the Church of the first 217 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.440 thousand years. Is the Church of the first thousand years papal or is it 218 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.119 Protestant or is it Orthodox. There's no way to solve that question other than 219 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.519 going to the history, going to the text, going to the Church fathers. 220 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.680 There's no other way to do it. So we have to go and 221 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.359 look at the evidence, have to go and look at what the Church fathers 222 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.039 taught. That's a different question in terms of what we call normativity, which 223 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.240 is what Luigi kept bringing up. That's the question of did Jesus establish any 224 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:17.200 succeeding body of men that have the right to bind people's conscience? And Protestantism 225 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:23.000 unanimously says no, there's no body of people that has the right to trample 226 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:30.200 my conscience because classical Protestantism reforms the right of private judgment and the freedom of 227 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:36.759 the conscience. Okay, and then like an issue with you of a like 228 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:41.240 this like Robert sentods, and they just say like or like alcause like Kyrie 229 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.720 or whatever, they're like the conquests. Couldn't they just be like, well, 230 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:47.759 you know, if you don't accept this, you weren't a part of 231 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.400 the true Church, and we don't accept it, and so therefore it's universal. 232 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.720 Like so how would that like that makes sense? Well, the Robert 233 00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:02.720 synods are false synods ultimately because they teach wrong theology. They're not false because 234 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:10.079 of some like procedural of Snaphu that they didn't follow, and they're false ultimately 235 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.839 because they do. And that's that's why we don't make the Roman Catholic argument 236 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.079 that the only way you know a true council is if a pope affirms it. 237 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.319 The Roman Catholic's one, you have a consistent approach to that. So 238 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:25.680 again there's two different questions. The way that I know a council ultimately is 239 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:29.359 only going to be a true council ultimately is only going to be the testimony 240 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.759 of the Holy Spirit, and that's no different than a Protestant or a Roman 241 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.599 Catholic at the end of the day. So the point when we say that 242 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.400 or bring that up. Is not to say that nobody can know or that 243 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:48.519 we have a epistemically privileged position. Nobody does. We're all in the same 244 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.759 boat. So the question is who's approach and whose system is consistent and what 245 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.799 do we actually see in history? That's the point. So are there fake 246 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.400 synods? Yes, well, at the end of the day, how do 247 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.759 we know. Well, ultimately, it's only going to be the Holy Spirit. 248 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.279 That's not the same thing as what a Protestant says, because a Protestant 249 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.599 has a different principle by which they judge these things. They think it's just 250 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.079 the Bible ultimately. But the problem is that the Bible ultimately doesn't give you 251 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.279 any way to judge any of those things because there's no basis to know what 252 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.599 the right canon of scripture is without the history of the Church. And that's 253 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.720 the main point, is that the epistemic foundation and principle that the Protestant relies 254 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:33.720 on is inconsistent. It's inconsistent because it needs the church to know the canon, 255 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:40.400 but it also rejects the church that gives the canon. Okay, sure, 256 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.319 I guess I kind of also leads to question, So you said, 257 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:51.680 you know basically like they need a canon of scripture and they like can't really 258 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.480 decide it. But you know what, obviously there isn't like a said list 259 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.440 of like binding or like ecumenical const Yeah, but we're not, so we're 260 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.440 not Protestant and stuff. So that's like asking me, well, on the 261 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.720 Protestant basis, why don't you have a Protestant solar scripturer list? Like if 262 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:14.039 my position isn't solar scripturer, then why would I be bound to the idea 263 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.960 of solo scripturer? I mean, there's nothing inconsistent in my position by admitting 264 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:26.160 that there's divine tradition outside of the written texts of scripture. That's not inconsistent 265 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:32.960 with my position. It's only inconsistent if if you apply a Protestant standard to 266 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.720 me. It's the same move that a Roman Catholic makes when they say, 267 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.279 well, where's the guy who decides the infallible councils. It's like that I'm 268 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.680 not a Roman Catholic, so I don't have that problem in my system. 269 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.240 If I had a Roman Catholic system, that might be a problem. I 270 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.960 mean, like like a Bonan just like sort of like appeals like the historicity 271 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.680 of like I mean, I guess like like like like like like just say 272 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.640 just say it, man, try not to do so many like go ahead, 273 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:04.559 Okay, my bad. I'm just like videam zoomer. I guess he 274 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.400 just would have made this argument, but like why why can't a Protestant just 275 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.119 look through like the history and whatever and just say, like, well, 276 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.359 this seems to be the episode composit and therefore we're gonna treat it like the 277 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.039 highest and obviously councils heavier in the past has been Robert Senden, so therefore 278 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:23.440 we're just gonna, you know, the councilors are gonna be on the lad 279 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:29.960 the scripture or whatever, because it's missing the whole point that Paul says the 280 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.160 church is a pillar and ground of truth, not the scriptures, and it's 281 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.119 the church that determine what goes under the scriptures. Yeah, and I would 282 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.039 say, we have an actual method right of determining whether or not a council 283 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.839 is legitimate, and it's going to be that all the patriarchs affirm it, 284 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.519 right, So he doesn't have a method. He's just asserting like his own 285 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:55.599 personal you know, conscience on Yeah, I'm gonna accept the new Testament cannon 286 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.720 of Carthage, but not the Old Testment cannon. Well why, well you 287 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.000 know because this other father says that that's not actually part of the canon. 288 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:06.960 Okay, well why does that father? Why is that your method? Why 289 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:08.799 is that father your method? You except everything that father says? No, 290 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.920 No, just the stuff that I like. Okay, Well, like this 291 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.400 just gets absurd, right, And that's kind of the point is like the 292 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.640 method is going to be that which is affirm by all the patriarchs, and 293 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.119 that's going to be the normative authority his method ultimately, and this is what 294 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.400 all of the prosper reformers say. And I have the quotes by Turretan Hodge 295 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.960 Luther. They all say, you ultimately, it's your conscience that you're appealing 296 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.039 to. You can always override the church with your conscience. We don't agree 297 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:40.680 with that. We disagree with that, okay. And then also, but 298 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:45.720 like patriarchs, you know, you know, they can air and so like 299 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.640 whenever you're seeing like is this a valid council or whatever, and you just 300 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.400 say, well, you know, the patriarchs all accept it. I mean, 301 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:53.119 what if like one patriarch or you know, the patriarch or the West, 302 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.519 whatever you now of Rome, they obviously aren't a part of Orthodoxy anymore. 303 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.119 So, right, so we believe that people that are outside the church 304 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.279 don't they don't count anymore. And so just because they're a patriarch doesn't mean 305 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:10.279 that they're like there's no protection, that they're infallibly guided as individuals. Sees, 306 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.440 the point is that after something comes up, if it's eventually received by 307 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.799 the entire church, and it's not even just the patriarch, it's it's also 308 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.640 the rest of the church. For example, it took a while for the 309 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.039 Palamite Synods to eventually be received by the entire Orthodox world, and they were, 310 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:32.960 so there's this like reciprocal relationship between patriarch, its the rest of the 311 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:37.079 bishops and the Orthodox people, even even the people of the church. It's 312 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.559 not just the hierarchs, it's also the people all they all play a role 313 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:44.759 in the receiving and accepting of this. And amazingly, even the new Roman 314 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:48.359 Catholic document that they just put out even admits that there's a role of the 315 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.359 acceptance of the entire church and its population in Roman Catholicism as well. So 316 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.559 that's another concession. And so I think what's going on is that you're you're 317 00:26:56.599 --> 00:27:03.559 confusing two different things. And we're not arguing that the Orthodox Church gets a 318 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.519 trump cart on certitude and it can give you certitude and the Protestants are all 319 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:14.039 relativists. It's two different points. The point is that the Protestant position is 320 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:18.480 inconsistent by on the one hand, saying that they have certitude about the canon 321 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.559 of Scripture, then they admit that it comes from the Orthodox Church. That's 322 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:26.960 another important point that they're missing. It's not just the church as readeemed Zoomer 323 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.160 kept appealing to. No, No, it's the Orthodox Church. Bro Go 324 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.480 read those dudes. They were Orthodox. They believe what we believe. They 325 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.880 don't believe what you believe. So it's getting it from our church and our 326 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.039 dudes, and also trusting the tradition that they hand it down, to know 327 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.200 that it was apostolic, or to know that it was written by you know, 328 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:48.759 Mark or any of the Apostles or the Disciples or Matthew, because some 329 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:52.200 of the Gospels just say you know Matthew, Well, Matthew who how do 330 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.039 we know that that's Matthew the Apostle, not just some random other dude. 331 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:02.839 So apostolicity requires the tradition of the Church, saying this is the book that 332 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:07.200 we've handed down in this bishopric that Matthew wrote, when we're trusting the tradition 333 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.039 of the Church, that it's an apostolic text. Okay, that's not the 334 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.400 only thing, but that's one of the elements for canonicity to be included in 335 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.559 the Bible. The other thing that I missed a few minutes the beginning the 336 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.559 debates, so I might have come up, but the Bible isn't like a 337 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.319 book that's just circulated for private devotion. It's situated within the liturgy. So 338 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:34.200 you can't actually divorce the canon from the liturgical recitation and the daily lectionaries and 339 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.240 readings. And that's a key point that when I was a Protestant and I 340 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:42.240 read that, that really was kind of a clincher for me because it meant 341 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:47.799 that it's not just the tradition of the Church in some generic sense, it's 342 00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:51.640 actually the liturgical worship of the Church, which is not written down in the 343 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:55.720 Bible that I'm relying on, or excuse me, that the church fathers are 344 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.680 looking to and relying on as part of their criteria for the canon. So 345 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:04.200 that was devastating to a Protestant position of solar scriptura because I'm not just relying 346 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:12.319 on this generic idea. It's like we're having to rely on the liturgy as 347 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.880 part of the way that the canon is determined. And the liturgy is definitely 348 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:22.720 not something that Protestants accept as some sort of authoritative position, so it's all 349 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.240 the more damaging and devastating. That's the point, is that the Protestant wants 350 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.400 his cake and to eat it too, and to throw out the very thing 351 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:33.799 that preserved and handed him the book, and you can't do that. We 352 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.920 believe it's a reciprocal relationship of Church and Bible together. They can't be divorced. 353 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.039 You can't get the you can't get the book without the community that handed 354 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:47.680 it down. That's the point. And that's a different question from is there 355 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:52.400 a body of people that Jesus established in history who can bind people's conscience and 356 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:57.799 excommunicate them with authority. Those are two different questions certitude as at an individual 357 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:04.400 level, where we're all in this Protestant Romecaolic orthodox versus a historical question of 358 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:08.519 normativity. Does anybody have the authority to bind us with their aughts? You 359 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.680 ought believe this and if you don't, you're out of the church. Two 360 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:18.880 different questions. And then I mean, like my first question about like it 361 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.119 wasn't really about like like certitude. I was just thinking like practically, like 362 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:26.960 you know, if the whole church has accept a council for it to be 363 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.880 acumenical, although the times, if you aren't accepting that council, you're not 364 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.000 in the church. I mean, how do you know, Like I mean 365 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.200 kind of already said this maybe, but I mean, like, how do 366 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.079 you know? It's just like maybe an issue is like still, well there's 367 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.640 not and not everything's black and white like at the time of a controversy. 368 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.319 So you might have people at the time of a controversy who aren't clear on 369 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.599 all the issues. And you know, we don't have to like we can 370 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.880 leave these things to God and not have to worry about you know, like 371 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.880 did I get a PhD in theology? To be saved? Like, it's 372 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.039 not about getting a PhD in theology. It's about having the right attitude and 373 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:04.480 humbly submitting to the church. So for example, Augustine, we believe he 374 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:08.559 got some things wrong, but he's not like Origin, who's a heretic and 375 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:17.039 was cast out of the church views without correction. Origin did that, and 376 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:21.240 that's why he was extual communicated. Augustine said, I submit this to the 377 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.599 Church for their judgment. So the difference between them was not a question of 378 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.480 who had more theological or philosophical knowledge. It was the question of humility. 379 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.119 That's what saves us, not our you know, how much theology knowledge we 380 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:36.880 have. So it's yeah, it's possible that I could be living at the 381 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:41.519 time of a controversy and I don't know, you know, how the council, 382 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:47.319 you know, I mean Augustine I think died on the way to one 383 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:51.279 of the cumenical councils. So he didn't make it. And so you know 384 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.279 do we say, oh, well, he didn't make it, so he's 385 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.319 well, no, we don't think that. I mean, it's not Orthodoxy 386 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:04.400 doesn't have this like legalistic spirit of you know, these really black and white 387 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.160 attitudes of like, oh, you're all damned if you didn't get the right 388 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:13.200 you know, theological position. You're a heretic if you continue an obstinacy against 389 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:15.559 the presentation of the truth. That's what makes your herotic, not just being 390 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:21.680 wrong. So so if you're asking how in other words, there's no easy 391 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:27.960 answer to somebody living in the time of a big controversy. Okay, yeah, 392 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.440 and then also like like how long would like one of these like controversies 393 00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:36.759 like last for you know, like I don't know what the Erring Constverras is, 394 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.079 like something like eighty years. Is it possible like something that could happen 395 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:43.319 for like two hundred years or like I don't know. Oh yeah, absolutely. 396 00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.519 I mean if you look at the history of the Philly oakuay, I 397 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:52.000 mean, it lasts as a dispute for hundreds of years until it really gets 398 00:32:52.039 --> 00:33:00.160 clarified when Rome dogmatizes their position at twelve seventy four, and then when the 399 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:06.079 Orthodox reply with their position at the Palomite Synods, and then Rome restates their 400 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.400 position at Florence, and that had been disputed going all the way back to 401 00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.720 you know, even when Saint Maximus was saying, well, maybe we can 402 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.400 give the Latins that you know, the benefit of the doubt, and maybe 403 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:22.759 they just mean in terms of economya. So it takes many centuries actually for 404 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:30.519 that to be solidified at a dogmatic official level between East and West. Okay, 405 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.559 yeah, yeah, thank you, guys. Yeah, those those are 406 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:38.000 good questions. I don't know why you keep like holding up your hand and 407 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.839 thumbing down. What's your problem, dude? Sorry, No, I was 408 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.519 just reacting to Derek and that wasn't when you were talking. I think there's 409 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:52.319 a time delay. Oh okay, Oh yeah. As always, I appreciate 410 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.359 the opportunity to come on and ask questions. So I think the big distinguishing 411 00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:04.200 difference that you guys have highlighted tonight between Nefflis Orthodox and Protestants is this distinction 412 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:09.880 of epistemic certitude and a binding normative authority. Right now, I've heard Trent 413 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:16.440 Horn when he's doing supposed refutation videos of you that whenever you're arguing against Protestants 414 00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:22.360 and you make the argument of you know, needing a normative authority, but 415 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:27.000 then you turn around against Catholics and then you say that you need the Pope 416 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:31.199 and then the encyclicals and then these other things. So how does the normative 417 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:37.880 authority versus epistemic certainty problem? How is it not solved by Catholicism? And 418 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:45.079 then historically, how do you factor that into cases like after the Council of 419 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.719 Florence, the lay people like drowning their bishops or whatever. Who it wasn't. 420 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.199 Just so, there's a couple of mistakes here. First of all, 421 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:59.880 I don't understand Trent's parallel in terms of what you're talking about. What's the 422 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.119 what is the what is the parallel between? On the one hand, if 423 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:10.039 I critique the Protestant position with making that distinction between epstemic certitude and normativity, 424 00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:15.760 how does that in any way relate to the critique of Rome. First, 425 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.719 let's hammer that out before we go to the other issue. Can you help, 426 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:21.320 Can you explain that a little more? I don't understand. Yeah, 427 00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:27.639 so Trent would say that whenever you're making a video critiquing the epistemology of the 428 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.000 Roman Catholic right, say that, well, they have the councils, but 429 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.760 then they need the Pope to interpret the councils, and then they need the 430 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:38.039 paid one cyclicals to interpret that, and then they need the priests to interpret 431 00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:43.880 that. And you criticize their magisterium, but then you appeal to your own 432 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:49.639 infallible magisterium and call it a normative authority. No, no, no, 433 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:53.920 no. So this is again a fundamental misunderstanding of the critique. The critique 434 00:35:54.199 --> 00:36:00.239 of the Roman Catholic position is of their epistemology, and the response is not 435 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:06.159 for me to run to normativity. The critique is of the inconsistency in their 436 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:10.119 system, of their classical foundationalism and self evidence and all the things that they 437 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:16.360 believe in, and that this doesn't actually work in practice, because it's always 438 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:22.159 just moving the goalpost and kicking the can down the road and appealing to another 439 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:27.119 thing that never actually produces the thing that it's supposed to produce. So that's 440 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.400 an epistemic critique of the selling point that Roman Catholicism pretends to give. I 441 00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:43.480 also point out that they themselves confuse epistemic certitude and normativity in their apologetic That's 442 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:49.440 not my argument or that's not what I'm preferring or putting forward. So does 443 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:52.559 that make sense? I'm saying that on their own grounds, the Roman Catholic 444 00:36:52.559 --> 00:37:00.480 epistemology is inconsistent because it believes in self evidence, it believes in basicality, 445 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:07.480 it believes that things are just properly basic. And then it turns around and 446 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:13.079 things are just properly basic, and then it turns around and it appeals to 447 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.039 all of these other things to try to justify the things that are self evident. 448 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:22.400 That's an inconsistent position on their view, because they don't believe in circularity. 449 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.280 If you believe in foundationalism, if you're an evidentialist, you cannot appeal 450 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:32.239 to circularity. That's the critique of their position. And on top of that, 451 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:37.280 I've said that when they try to make the selling point that the papacy 452 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:43.400 helps solve these problems, I further point out that it doesn't solve the problems 453 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.440 because it kicks the can down the road and you're in a worse position than 454 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:51.039 a Protestant because you have more documents to try to sift through than just the 455 00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:57.599 Bible. That's one critique. It is not my response to say that the 456 00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.039 Orthodox have quote normativity and Roman Catholics have epistemic problems. I mean, it's 457 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:07.880 just fundamentally totally misunderstanding the whole argument. But that's not surprising because Trent thinks 458 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.400 that the Kogito is a good argument. Okay, yeah, so everybody has 459 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:17.679 the same issues. Okay, everybody's in the same boat of how are we 460 00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:22.840 going to choose and know which one's right? The first right, So you're 461 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:29.800 saying that they're dogmatized self evident epistemology contradicts the circularity of the papacy and the 462 00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:37.199 encyclicals. Well, yes, by being circular, they're contradicting their epistemology foundationalism. 463 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:43.320 Right. Yeah. So now, given that you hold to the normative 464 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:51.199 authority Roman Catholics hold on. Roman Catholics and Orthodox agree that there is a 465 00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.760 living body of people who possess the ability to mind consciences. So we do 466 00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.480 not have the exact same problem as the Protestants. We Orthodox Realcalic agree on 467 00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.960 that principle that there is a living body of people who has authority, and 468 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.039 that's where we would be in. I wouldn't make that same critique of normativity 469 00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:15.440 to the Roman Catholic right. So this this, this is similar to the 470 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:21.079 question regarding the Oriental Orthodox bishop that was asked to Luigi during the Zoomer debate. 471 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:27.960 But given that historically there were cases where like the layman killed the people 472 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.519 who was signed on to the Council of Florence or whatever, and there are 473 00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:38.880 circumstances where the laymen actually hold their bishop account accountable for bad doctrine, how 474 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:44.840 how do you separate the normative authority from when you, as a layman have 475 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.920 a responsibility of your conscience. Right, So normativity does it. Normativity does 476 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:55.199 not mean that I turn off my brain or that I don't have as a 477 00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:00.840 layperson my own appeals to authorities above the best. So in the Orthodox Church, 478 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.840 a priest or a bishop, they're not the lords of your conscience in 479 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:09.199 the sense that they're limited. We believe that both there is an authority and 480 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:14.880 then they're limited in that authority, and so in the same way, that's 481 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.519 why it's a synodal thing. It's not the bishop just randomly comes to you. 482 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:22.280 The bishop rules together with his synod. They make decisions. It does 483 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.760 not mean even that their synod is infallible, because we had many people in 484 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:31.719 the history of the Church who were saints who were excommunicated by local synods, 485 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.519 who were persecuted by other bishops, or even patriarchs who became heretics. So 486 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:42.280 the only thing that's infallible at that level is an ecumenical council or a pan 487 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.440 Orthodox synod that's been received by the whole church. That doesn't mean that I 488 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:51.440 only have to submit to what's authoritative. I have to submit to my rulers 489 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:57.519 when they rule in truth and according to the limitations put upon them. That 490 00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.000 is the Orthodox position, and that's very different. You might say, well, 491 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.199 that sounds Protestant. No, no, it's not Protestant because Orthodox Church 492 00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.599 is decentralized. Okay, everybody thinks of it like this Roman Catholic thing of 493 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:12.440 like it's all this sort of like top down pyramid thing. It's not like 494 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.440 that. It's literally a decentralized thing. And even the laity have a role 495 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:21.079 in the church, even a lady have a role in the dogmas of the 496 00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:23.559 church. This is very People find this crazy because they're so trained to think 497 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:28.920 in this sort of Roman Catholic way. But it's neither Roman Catholic nor is 498 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:31.920 it Protestant. So to a Protestant might sound like a Roman Catholic, and 499 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:36.199 to Roman Catholic it might sound Protestant. But that's because Orthodoxy is none of 500 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.199 these positions. So how do I know, Well, there's no there's no 501 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.880 one size fits all answer to all of the to a case by case situation. 502 00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:46.559 So in other words, if the bishop comes to me, then that's 503 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:52.159 because we believe that the laity have the Holy Spirit, and so we can 504 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:58.199 trust that the laity will know when the clergy are unfaithful, and this has 505 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:00.639 happened multiple times as well. For example, in the Iconic class controversy, 506 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:07.400 many of the clerics were iconoclass and the laity and the monastics were the ones 507 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:14.199 that were the primary champions of Orthodoxy in their crisis. So the normal governance 508 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.280 of the church is by the bishop and by the synod, but there are 509 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.800 situations and cases where a local synod and a local bishop can absolutely be wrong 510 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.800 and be heretics. So there's no there's just not there's no like, oh, 511 00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:30.760 it's this one easy thing that solves all the cases. Okay, So 512 00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:37.119 you're saying that we should submit to those who are in authority above us, 513 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.719 but there are also things like ecumenical councils and the scriptures that are above just 514 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.320 the authority of the bus Well, God's above them, right, and so 515 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:47.960 that's why I mean, it's a it's a pretty consistent pattern in church history 516 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:54.400 to say that you submit to your authority within the limits of their authority. 517 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:58.559 Right. So, for example, if the bishop came and said I want 518 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:02.880 to I want to sell your children into the slave trade, No, sorry, 519 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:06.000 you don't have the authority to do that, you see, So he's 520 00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:09.519 overstepping his authority. The bishop comes and says, we're no longer gonna believe 521 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:13.760 in the Trinity. So you have a duty, because there's a higher authority 522 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.239 than him, to appeal to that higher authority. And the thing that I 523 00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:20.400 think blows people's minds with this, that a Roman Catholic would have a hard 524 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.239 time understanding, is that every person in the Orthodox Church has access to the 525 00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:28.239 same spirit. So just because there's a bishop, like a bishop is not 526 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.559 a lord, like he doesn't have this like you know, he's not some 527 00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:36.239 king that I that I worship or something like that, and he can just 528 00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.559 tell us to do anything. No, we have a duty to not let 529 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.320 the bishop or the priest do that, you see. And that's very strange 530 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.519 because in the Roman Catholic view, it's sort of like, you know, 531 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:51.559 the priest is up here, the bishop is way up here, the pope 532 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:54.079 is at the top, and like if you're a laity like you, you're 533 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.760 sort of like the bottom of the totem pole of being or something. You 534 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.719 don't really have possessed real being like the dude over in Rome does. That's 535 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:07.760 totally opposite of the attitude of the fullness of Catholicity being present even in the 536 00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:13.119 infant in the church. But you'll notice a Romancaolic church they don't give infants 537 00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:16.360 communion as because it's as if they think there's this gradation in the body of 538 00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:22.159 Christ to where you're not fully in Christ until you're I don't know, thirteen, 539 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:24.480 and you are able to take communion, but even then you're not, 540 00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:28.679 you're not the pope. It's like I thought, we all have the same 541 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.639 grace, the same sacraments, the same spirit. That's our Orthodoxy is so 542 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:39.159 different than Rome. Yeah. So you would say it was something like Constantinople 543 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:45.679 or whichever patriarch it was, appointing a female deaconess and it was a bishop 544 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:52.239 in Africa under Alexandria. Okay, I thought a patriarch approved it. Well, 545 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:53.480 he might have, but I mean, do you understand that in the 546 00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:58.519 history of the Church, like many patriarchs have been heretics, many of them. 547 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:06.800 Yeah, yeah, mystorious Yeah, okay, yeah, so an orthodox 548 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:14.599 Christian would have like a moral obligation to oppose that absolutely. Then like other 549 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:19.400 forms of submission to like the patriot signing onto a council or something. Yeah, 550 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.360 it depends on the case. At hand. There's no one size fits 551 00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:25.960 all. So you know, like, what are they pushing what I mean, 552 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:30.960 is it something theological? Is it something you know, personal? Like 553 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:36.000 the bishop comes and says, give me your land. It's like, no, 554 00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:42.639 you can't do that. Noah. There's spheares of authority, just like 555 00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.480 the king can't come and say to the church you're gonna worship me now and 556 00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:51.320 not not Jesus because I'm the king. You know, there's spheares and limitations. 557 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:58.960 Go ahead, Hey, I wanted to run something by you. I 558 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.199 was head of CASU debate with a Protestant today and I didn't he had an 559 00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:05.760 objection I didn't really know how to answer. So he's a big fan of 560 00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:09.239 William Lane Craig. And I'm sure you know that Craig is an open pollinarian. 561 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.760 Yeah, I've heard. He also now has a heterodox He denies two 562 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:21.960 Wills in Christ too, what we were debating about today. So you know, 563 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.880 I made the appeal to you know, if you just look at all 564 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:31.320 of the Christological heresies of the first millennium, one common characteristic of all of 565 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:36.760 them is that they failed to properly unite the human and the divine in the 566 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:40.079 one person of Christ. So whether we're talking about nature's wills energies, they 567 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:49.880 all have that characteristic And so you know, the line of thought that Craig 568 00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:52.440 seems to follow, and that this guy seems to follow, is that, 569 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:55.440 well, if there is no soul, human soul in Christ, then it 570 00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:59.920 follows that there would be no human will, just the one singular divine will. 571 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:08.519 So I will is a is a faculty that is proper to nature's right. 572 00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:14.760 So hence two natures, two wills, right, how many wills are 573 00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:19.039 in the trinity? One and not three? Okay, So if there's one 574 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.199 will in the trinity, then we know that will is not a property of 575 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:27.119 person but a property of nature. So I don't think William Lane Craig would 576 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.480 deny that there's one will in the trinity. I mean, who knows, 577 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:32.239 Maybe he comes up with some weird uh, you know, three wills in 578 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:35.119 the trinity. I don't. I don't know what his position. I don't 579 00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:37.840 remember what his position is on that. Doctor bo Branson, I think has 580 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:43.400 a response and a critique of this. But so you said you were unfamiliar 581 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:47.039 with what's the actual argument, because well, his argument was that, well, 582 00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:51.440 no will is a faculty of person, not of nature. Okay, 583 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:53.400 so then there's three wills in the trinity, and we're and he's a triph 584 00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:58.519 he is, yes, I don't I think that went over his head, 585 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.880 but he's only a Actually, I didn't quite know how to answer, was 586 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:07.920 there are no such things as abstract natures out there floating around that have wills 587 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:09.480 of their own? Okay, Well, nobody says that, So how is 588 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:13.639 that an objection? I mean, that's the whole point of the term in 589 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:20.960 hypostad In hypostatic, which is used by the Fifth Council from Leontias to Jerusalem, 590 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.719 the whole point of that term is that nature exists in the mode of 591 00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:28.360 the person that has it. So correct, that's the teaching of the Fifth 592 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:34.119 Council. So but since nobody's arguing that natures exist in the abstract, I 593 00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:37.960 don't understand how that's an objection to any any position that we hold. H 594 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:43.400 Well, Keith like used the example of you have a conjoined twin. You 595 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.719 know, they share a body, they share a nature. But I suppose 596 00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.760 in that example that's not a good example that don't really share in nature because 597 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:53.199 they share a body. Well, all human beings share in nature because we 598 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:58.239 all have the same nature of adam like begets like. So when you have 599 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:04.280 a son, your son shares your nature, and so you have a body, 600 00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:07.840 mind, soul and will in the same way that your father has body 601 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:12.920 mind, soul and will. But what makes you unique, person person is 602 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:15.760 a distinct category the subject or the agent that has the body, mind, 603 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:20.320 soul and will. Nature and person are distinct. John Damascus makes it very 604 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:24.920 clear that all heresies hinge on the failure to distinguish nature in person. And 605 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:31.480 you'll notice that there's a reflexivity between these ideas in the Trinity and in Christology. 606 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:36.599 So any confusion that you make or introduce, and this is what for 607 00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:40.800 example, monophicites do, that's what a pollinarians do. Any confusion that you 608 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:46.840 introduce into Christology should then be reflexive into the triad. Any confusions that you 609 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:52.519 make in the triad are also reflexive into Christology. So if I confuse nature 610 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:54.920 and person in the Trinity, guess what I'm going to confuse nature and person 611 00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.639 in Christology in Christ Incarnate. If I confuse nature in person in in the 612 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:04.079 incarnation of Christ, then I'm going to confuse it in the trinity. If 613 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.679 I confuse nature in person in anthropology in the human person, then I'm probably 614 00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:13.760 going to mess up when I do Christology as well, because I'm trying to 615 00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:19.719 explain in Christology what Christ assumed. Well, if he assumed a human nature, 616 00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.920 then nature has to be whole and entire. That means that it needs 617 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:27.880 to have all the components that we possess, or it's not healed. So, 618 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.320 as the Church Fathers say, what is not assumed is not healed. 619 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:36.079 If Christ didn't assume the rational soul, then he didn't heal our rational soul. 620 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:39.039 If you didn't assume a human will, then he didn't heal our fallen 621 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:45.519 human will. But this is so fundamental to the Second Ecumenical Council, which 622 00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:49.599 is the first one to condemn a Pollinarianism. Is very bizarre to me that 623 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:55.679 anyone would would try to argue against Christ possessing a rational soul. But William 624 00:50:55.719 --> 00:51:00.880 Lane Craig does this because he doesn't understand the Patrice teaching. He doesn't understand 625 00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:05.559 the distinction between nature and person, and he thinks of persons as if they 626 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:09.400 are the modern idea of an individual, and so he thinks that an individual 627 00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:15.719 is a body and a soul, which is the classic post Augustinian, the 628 00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:20.239 medieval Latin idea of what a person is. And that's not what a person 629 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.159 is, especially not in the Orthodox tradition, because we have the doctrine of 630 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:27.159 the noose. But again, it all just simply goes back to failure to 631 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:30.599 distinguish nature in person in trinity, failure to distinguished nature and person in Christ 632 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:37.719 incarnate, and failure to distinguished nature in person and individual human beings. What 633 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:44.880 do you think of Is it proper to say that plants and animals have a 634 00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:49.920 will even though they aren't persons? No, no, they're not possessed will. 635 00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:55.159 I mean you could say, maybe an animal possesses a kind of will 636 00:51:57.079 --> 00:52:01.000 aristotla uses the termina terminology of a vegetative, so they possess a kind of 637 00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:05.880 animus or kind of a life force, but they don't possess a will. 638 00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:09.679 The only person who can possess a will is a being who possesses the divine 639 00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:15.400 image to be able to choose freely. So free will is a component of 640 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:22.199 our nature. It's the freedom to choose based on the rational faculty. And 641 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.480 since animals do not have the reasoning capabilities of human beings. They do not 642 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:30.440 possess what we call a human will. So they might possess some kind of 643 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:35.000 instinctual will, if you want to use that term, but it's not what 644 00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:39.320 we mean by human will. I mean we know Jesus possesses a human will, 645 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:43.360 because Jesus is not my will, but thy will be done. And 646 00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.920 if you read the debate between Maximus and Puris, the whole debate about that 647 00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:52.880 text and Gathsimone is that Jesus submitted his human will to the divine will that 648 00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:57.599 he shares with the Father. Right, Okay, well that clears that up 649 00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:00.360 for thanks for helping. Yeah, those are great questions. Now it actually 650 00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:06.039 relates to the next super chat question, which is from Scuma Bear for ten 651 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.599 dollars. Did you see that Wimland Craig denies two wills in Christ? Yes, 652 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:14.199 that's exactly what we're talking about. Would you try to reach out and 653 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:19.039 debate him? He will not debate quote other Christians. I've already asked him, 654 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:23.440 so no, he's not going to debate. But heresy breeds more heresy, 655 00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:29.360 so he wants to keep doubling down and going from not just being a 656 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:36.440 pollinarian, but also now to being a monothelite. It's not surprising Icono, 657 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:46.880 Matt, Hey, can you hear me? Uh huh? Like the last 658 00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:52.079 guy, I was speaking to a Protestant friend and I was kind of penning 659 00:53:52.119 --> 00:54:00.000 him on substitutionary atoma and just how nonsensical it is, and he decided to 660 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.760 just like up and change his entire Christology to thinking that Jesus didn't become God 661 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:09.519 until the transfiguration. And I was wondering if you knew if there were any 662 00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:15.800 specific groups throughout history that I could read upon in some reputations that maybe a 663 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:19.719 church father gave to them. That's a really so that would be a form 664 00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:24.280 of adoptionism. So adoptionism, I've never heard of it being postponed to the 665 00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:30.079 transfiguration. But usually the adoptionists say that at the baptism of Christ, Jesus 666 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:34.559 was adopted to be the son of God. All you have to do is 667 00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:38.280 read Chapter one of the Book of John, where it clearly says that Jesus 668 00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:43.280 is the eternal Son, eternally in and from the bosom of the Father. 669 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:52.960 So I mean, I mean as a Alexander of Saint Alexander argued Athanasius, 670 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:57.239 his mentor, if Jesus is an eternal father, then he must eternally have 671 00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.039 a son. Right. That clears it up. I appreciate it, Jack, 672 00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:05.599 Yes. And so the heresy that you're speaking of is called adoptionism. 673 00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:15.679 All yeah. Adoptionism was a form of arianism in the early church. Dan, 674 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:20.719 I'm gonna try to get to everybody here, anonymous. Five dollars. 675 00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:23.159 Thank you for the content. I was wondering what your live stream will be 676 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:29.039 when you taught this was from last night on Lord Voldemort. I did today's 677 00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:34.440 live stream on Jacquette Lee's book Millennium. We didn't know if it would be 678 00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:38.159 the last one. It sounds like the judge ruled that he has more time, 679 00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:43.519 so we've there's some more months. I've been a catechum for five months. 680 00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:46.760 Thank you. Father. McHale's streams and Sam Schreman's streams are great resources. 681 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:50.840 Yeah, I agree, Thank you, DC. We're working three dollars. 682 00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:53.280 Thank you so much. What's up, Dan, hi Ja, how 683 00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:57.559 you doing good. I just have a few questions for you. So, 684 00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.400 I'm a Protestant, and I have lots of protest and friends, and when 685 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:02.679 I talk about the stuff like church authority, what they think on it, 686 00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:07.719 and some arguments that they have. They bring up some passages from the Bible, 687 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:12.679 like where Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom and at the same 688 00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:16.840 time calls Peter satan and that he does not have his mind on the heavenly 689 00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:20.239 things, but just on human things. Yeah, well, I mean we're 690 00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:22.599 not Roman Catholics, so like we would agree with that, So like I 691 00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:28.280 don't. Peter isn't the first, you know, supreme pontiff. And so 692 00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:30.480 in the orthodoxraphy, what does it mean when Peter has the keys to the 693 00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:36.679 kingdom? Oh, well, he says in Matthew eighteen, the same thing 694 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:40.639 to the entire college apostles, and it means that they will be the rulers 695 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:47.400 and overseers and the proto bishops of the church. So the keys of the 696 00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:52.920 kingdom means that they have the authority to preach the Gospel, to make decisions 697 00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:57.079 in terms of like excommunication. He says, when he breathes on them, 698 00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:00.480 whoever sends you, they're remitted. Who ever sends you retain, they're retained. 699 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.159 So they have the ability to forgive and retain sins, and that they 700 00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:07.840 have the ability to excommunicate. So in the history of the church, those 701 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:10.679 are all kind of the functions of the keys. Okay, I see. 702 00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:15.599 And just one more question. Whenever I see you make videos on stuff like 703 00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:22.199 on Protestants, you say that there's like a common grace kind of between Protestants 704 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.639 and Catholics. What does that mean to have a common grace? I don't 705 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:29.000 ever remember saying that. I don't know what you mean. Okay, well, 706 00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:30.519 just one of the little clarifications. So that's all, thank you. 707 00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:39.119 I mean, common grace is a Calvinist doctrine that God doesn't immediately exercises wrath 708 00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:45.280 on every human being because of common grace. So doesn't have anything to do 709 00:57:45.360 --> 00:58:00.679 with something between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Slap atna. Yeah, I'm mute, 710 00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:07.719 I did it. I have a question for you. What is the 711 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:14.559 difference between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit? Is that? It is that our 712 00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:16.960 question? I mean, I don't know. No, I said that they're 713 00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:21.519 equivalent, so no, it's they mean the same thing, the same thing. 714 00:58:21.719 --> 00:58:24.719 Yeah, so when I play every Guy, I don't need to say 715 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:30.039 both. No, that's referring to the same thing. But thank you. 716 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:40.880 Uh. Curie design what's up, man? Hello? Yeah, what's up? 717 00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:45.239 Oh? Hey? Uh? So I was wondering if we could go 718 00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:53.719 into the Lutheran uh view of Christ's presence in the Eucharist. We can. 719 00:58:53.880 --> 00:59:00.760 I'm going to critique it as a form of monophysitism. Okay, yeah, 720 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:07.840 I grew up Lutheran. I was wondering if what's the Orthodox problem with consubstantiation. 721 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:14.719 Well, Christ's human body does not become omnipresent. It does not take 722 00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:17.519 on the properties of the divine nature. So the deification of the human nature 723 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:23.800 and the Orthodox Church still we still have the view that the human nature retains 724 00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:30.400 its creaturely properties. So even in deification, I don't cease to be a 725 00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:35.320 creature. And so there's no way that we could say that the humanity of 726 00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:40.159 Christ is as Luther says his argument, and maybe you could argue that later 727 00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:45.599 Lutherans argue a different way. I don't know. But it doesn't take on 728 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:52.360 the property of the divine nature. Okay, gotcha. I thought it would 729 00:59:52.360 --> 01:00:01.679 have fallen more into the essence of bread is can that be the essence of 730 01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:05.480 Christ flesh? At the same time, I mean, that's why I got 731 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:07.440 that's more of a that's more of a Roman Catholic critique. I think a 732 01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:14.159 better critique is the monophasite critique. Okay, yeah, that makes sense, 733 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:16.159 all right, thank you. He has do great work. Yeah, good 734 01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:31.800 question. I appreciate that, ying ying Yang twins. I just wanted to 735 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:37.119 say, first point about those soy feminine method ministries, right, and they 736 01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:38.400 keep calling you out and chat and stuff, saying I'll only debate with you 737 01:00:38.440 --> 01:00:43.559 in person. These guys went on faith unaltered and debated Father John wife but 738 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:50.840 Bro Branson online. Yeah, they're saying they won't debate you online. Yeah, 739 01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.639 I can't believe these guys. Man. But the second point I was 740 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:58.199 trying to make is that notice how Redeemed Zoomer in the debate kept switching between 741 01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:01.880 different process and traditions theology. Right, So notice how at one point he 742 01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:07.000 would make an Anglican position of the Eucharist, then he would make an Anglican 743 01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:09.440 position on branch theory, and he would make a Lutheran position that they kind 744 01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.360 of see tradition as having a little bit of weight and so forth. And 745 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:15.400 you bring up a great point that these guys killed each other over this type 746 01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:20.039 of stuff in the Reformation. How can he just like it just shows the 747 01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:24.199 utter chaos of the Protestant world. Chaos. Yeah, to make it up 748 01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:28.719 as you go type of thing. Exactly, exactly exactly, but that's what 749 01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:30.079 I want to say. Love what you do, Jay Man. Appreciate it. 750 01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:36.719 Yeah, really good points there again. Appreciate that, Matt, what's 751 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:39.079 up, dude? Yeah, it was a good debate. I mean I 752 01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:43.039 wish it had gone on longer. I felt like, right when it was 753 01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:45.079 getting cooking, you know, it's like, oh, time's up, So 754 01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:52.239 it would have been nice to have like more back and forths. Go ahead, 755 01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:54.639 Yeah, how you doing, what's up? Doing? What's on your 756 01:01:54.679 --> 01:02:00.719 mind? I just have like two really quick comments and then if that's all 757 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:05.639 right, try to make it quick. Okay. First comment is I haven't 758 01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:10.599 actually laughed as hard as I did the other day with your sacrament of the 759 01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:16.800 pot luck bit. I was literally wheezing at work, like just hilarious. 760 01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:22.039 I don't remind you. I don't remember what was this and you said the 761 01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:27.400 sacrament of the plot. Look was that an older bar stream? I don't 762 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:30.000 even remember. Yeah, I was just going back through some of your catalog 763 01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:37.760 dude, hilarious. Appreciated using that cartoon of them just made my whole week. 764 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:44.719 But my other comment is, do you think, you know, with 765 01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:54.079 the with the over intellectual, kind of legalistic Roman Catholic perspective on everything. 766 01:02:54.280 --> 01:03:00.079 It's like I went to Mass for two years straight, very shrad perish. 767 01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:07.239 I was like hours away from being confirmed, and it's like they they're so 768 01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:15.880 obsessed with like these you know, this whole structure, but they don't even 769 01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:21.000 follow themselves. Because I realized the only people that are making commentary on the 770 01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:27.320 New World Order, the Great Reset and criticizing communism is Orthodox Christians, and 771 01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.840 if they're Catholic, they're said of a cantus, like so are they just 772 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:37.480 complicit with you know, being a part of a church that's literally, you 773 01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.119 know, pushing for this type of world? I mean, and it's right 774 01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:44.880 in front of their face, Like all Francis has to say is bundle of 775 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:47.800 sticks and Italian and all of a sudden, you know, pinesap all of 776 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:52.960 them like, oh we won, we won. What about your Africa bishop 777 01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:55.280 or you're you know, you're yeah. I mean, if if one person 778 01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:59.119 in Africa equated to the pope, that might be a good argument, but 779 01:03:59.199 --> 01:04:01.239 I mean it's like, no, this is your infallible head. And by 780 01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:05.079 the way, it's not just Francis, it's also it's also Benedict going and 781 01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:09.719 praying in the synagogues and the mosques. It's John Paul the second doing all 782 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:14.599 the same stuff. So yeah, I mean, I don't know. I 783 01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.239 don't know what the mindset is. I've been out of that world for so 784 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:21.519 long that I don't even remember what it's like to think in the Roman Catholic 785 01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:28.239 mindset. Have no idea, man, I don't know. I don't know 786 01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:36.480 what they're thinking. I was really impressed with the Are you there? Yeah? 787 01:04:36.639 --> 01:04:39.960 Jay, Sorry, I thought you were trying to finish the point. 788 01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:44.320 Go ahead, really loud, Yeah, can you be okay? Yes, 789 01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:47.320 go ahead? Yeah, yeah. I have one question and one comment, 790 01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:55.039 if you don't mind. My question is about sin as it pertains or maybe 791 01:04:55.159 --> 01:05:04.039 affects divine providence. My understanding is that sin is the same or identical to 792 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:12.880 working your will in a form that's contrary to the will of God. And 793 01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:19.280 so it seems to me that it should follow that we are able to make 794 01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:27.760 things transpire which are contrary to God's will. But I'm always hearing from clergy 795 01:05:27.920 --> 01:05:36.159 that everything that happens to me I should interpret or understand as a gift from 796 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:44.159 God or right. So there's a difference between divine providence, which includes everything 797 01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.440 that happens for you know, reasons that we don't know, and that's why 798 01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:54.480 we trust God for even when the bad things happen. That's different than the 799 01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:58.280 notion that you should quote follow God's will and not do bad things. So 800 01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:00.960 it's just two different senses of the word will. Right. So God, 801 01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:05.880 as a person, I'm sorry, that's not what I mean exactly. It's 802 01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:15.119 more that when when bad things happened to me, I tend to think that 803 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:21.320 that's a byproduct of my own sin mo primarily, but also other people's sins, 804 01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:25.920 and so I don't really it doesn't really seem to me, and maybe 805 01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:29.559 I'm wrong, but it doesn't really seem to me that it's God willing the 806 01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:33.239 hardship upon me. It seems more like to me that God didn't want that 807 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.639 to happen to me, but it was because of my sin and other people's 808 01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:41.840 sins that it did. Right, well, not everything that happens happens for 809 01:06:41.960 --> 01:06:45.400 our sin, Because remember there's two examples. There is the you know, 810 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:49.400 the situation of Job, and nothing that happened to Job came upon him because 811 01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:55.280 he was sinful, But everything that happened to Job came upon him to make 812 01:06:55.360 --> 01:07:00.239 him even more righteous. And then there's also the case of the guy born 813 01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:03.320 and the Pharisees all say, well, he's born blind because he because he's 814 01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:08.000 cursed, because he's under sin, and Jesus says, no, it wasn't 815 01:07:08.039 --> 01:07:12.079 because of any sin that he was born blind. So no, So those 816 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.960 are two examples that let us know that no, not everything that happens is 817 01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:20.559 because of you know, some punishment. Oh I don't, but I don't 818 01:07:20.599 --> 01:07:29.719 mean that because Clargy often tell me that if I'm going through a sickness or 819 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:34.280 of whatever any other hardship, that it's God's will that I endure that. 820 01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:43.000 But I'm inclined to think that God wants me to be healthy and and not 821 01:07:43.159 --> 01:07:46.639 to have injustice viz. Well, but I'm saying it's two different there's two 822 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:53.119 different notions of will. So like, uh, God, can I can 823 01:07:53.199 --> 01:07:59.679 permit something that I desire to be otherwise? So for example, I might 824 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:05.480 allow if I had a son, I might allow him to go through something 825 01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:11.960 that's difficult so that he learns a lesson, yet I don't desire for him 826 01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:15.760 to, you know, experience the bad parts of that. I still might 827 01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:18.640 permit it. So I think it's just trading on two different notions of desire. 828 01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:28.479 So if I have a chronic illness, it's God permits it but doesn't 829 01:08:28.840 --> 01:08:31.640 desire it. I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. Yeah, I 830 01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.640 can both of those things can be true at the same time. I can 831 01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:42.239 permit something and yet I don't ultimately want the bad parts of that to happen, 832 01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:46.520 but I permit it for a greater good. Does that make sense? 833 01:08:49.640 --> 01:08:55.479 What was your other question? Yeah, the other thing was just I really 834 01:08:55.560 --> 01:09:00.560 enjoy seeing how you use the transcendental arguments, but at the same time, 835 01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:08.920 it seems like it's it's kind of just like a go to that always works 836 01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:14.359 against any kind of materialists or atheists, and so a lot often when I 837 01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:18.960 see you debate, your opponent doesn't really get much of a chance to really 838 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:23.560 stay the case because it's just dead on arrival. And of course you're right, 839 01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:27.479 and of course the argument makes sense, but I don't know, it 840 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:31.840 just seems that maybe if you allow them to carry on a little more, 841 01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:36.800 you you could maybe be more more likely to convince them, if that makes 842 01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:41.560 sense. Yeah, I'll take that into account. I think the lot of 843 01:09:41.560 --> 01:09:46.479 times in debates the opponents aren't interested in being convinced, but you know, 844 01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:51.760 debates are typically more so for the audience. So maybe that's why I don't 845 01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:56.680 concern myself so much with trying to convince the opponent in the debate, because 846 01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:00.960 not a nine point nine percent of the time the opponent is not going to 847 01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:04.000 be convinced, but much of the audience can be. But I will take 848 01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:09.560 that into account. It might be more beneficial to let people hang themselves by 849 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:19.079 explaining more Dashia. What's up a jay? You can hear me right? 850 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:27.000 Uh huh okay. I was just listening to that debate tonight and the part 851 01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:30.520 that got into the epistemic question I kind of touched on some of the things 852 01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:35.960 that I was thinking about. And do you think that the epistemic question is 853 01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:43.560 resolved by the system, whether it be Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Protestantism, Because 854 01:10:43.600 --> 01:10:46.680 I've heard you kind of respond to the question where like everyone has to sort 855 01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:50.760 of resolve it for themselves and the Holy Spirit has to work, right, 856 01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:57.079 So I think that it ends up being a question of which answer is consistent. 857 01:10:57.239 --> 01:11:00.319 That's what I'm saying. So like, there's not good that you're not 858 01:11:00.359 --> 01:11:06.880 gonna know from the outside which of the systems, like automatically will solve all 859 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:12.000 these problems for you. But what I can do is look at the systems 860 01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:16.640 and see what they claim about their solutions and see if it's consistent. So 861 01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:20.359 if a Roman Catholic tells me that the papacy is going to give me certitude 862 01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:25.319 and solve some of these dilemmas, then I want to look and see does 863 01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:28.279 it actually do that. And if I look and see that it doesn't do 864 01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:30.279 that, to me, that doesn't seem to work. If I look at 865 01:11:30.319 --> 01:11:32.680 the if the if I look at the Orthodo, I'm scume me the process 866 01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:38.640 system and it claims to give me, uh, you know, answers based 867 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:41.439 on going to the Bible and all this stuff and all of the sudd that 868 01:11:41.479 --> 01:11:44.279 we heard tonight in the debate, and then I and then I say, 869 01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:50.319 well, but is this a consistent presentation? Because Protestantism wants the Bible divorced 870 01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:54.600 from the Church, and that's what I'm saying, doesn't really make sense. 871 01:11:55.159 --> 01:12:00.119 And so that's not that's fundamentally not consistent in Orthodoxy. It's not telling you 872 01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:06.680 that we have the like silver bullet way out of this problem, because again, 873 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:11.840 everybody's in the same boat. But what we don't have is an inconsistent 874 01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:16.199 account of how we have knowledge and how we you know, look at church 875 01:12:16.279 --> 01:12:20.359 history and the relationship of the Bible of the councils. You know that that's 876 01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:24.039 the point. That's the argument, and it's so it's a different argument. 877 01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:27.880 Yeah, I think because like I came from Protestantism, and so I did 878 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:32.600 the whole like through Catholicism into Orthodoxy thing, and then my thought process was 879 01:12:32.680 --> 01:12:35.640 kind of like, well, I just kind of want more epistemic certainty or 880 01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:44.079 somewhere I can like ground ground truths and sort of in a not just say, 881 01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:46.840 you know, grounding it in God necessarily, but also in sort of 882 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:50.760 like a physical way or like the Church. Well, I think I think 883 01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:56.000 over time as an individual, you do get that in Orthodoxy. So you 884 01:12:56.039 --> 01:13:00.279 do get a greater grounding, you do get greater certitude. But I guess 885 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:04.039 what I'm trying to say is that from an apologetic standpoint, when we're arguing 886 01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:09.319 with people outside there's nothing that I'm going to be able to put forward as 887 01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:15.199 like the trump card that both Protestants and Romancolics try to do, which I 888 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:18.159 don't think works. So that's the whole point is it's like I agree, 889 01:13:18.279 --> 01:13:20.359 yah, yeah, no, I agree with you that I don't think just 890 01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:25.800 like saying the papacisy because when you critique the Roman Catholic system, I think 891 01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:29.600 you're right. The only thing that I see is kind of a problem then 892 01:13:29.680 --> 01:13:32.000 is I see kind of like, well, if it lands on each individual 893 01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:35.600 person, then everyone's kind of responsible for their own Yeah. I don't know 894 01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:41.399 if it's always historically been the case, because people would be born into a 895 01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:45.079 culture or family and then they would sort of well, Jesus says to who 896 01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:47.159 much is given, much is required, So you know, at the end 897 01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:50.000 of the day, God's going to judge all that based on you know, 898 01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:56.520 how much light you've been given and not everybody's given. Have a lot more 899 01:13:56.560 --> 01:14:01.119 responsibility these days to figure out the truth. But yeah, so yeah, 900 01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:05.000 well yeah, again, depending upon your situation, in your in your scenario. 901 01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.600 So like the guy that called in earlier, who's like a lot of 902 01:14:08.640 --> 01:14:11.439 this stuff's difficult, I don't get it. No, I don't think God's 903 01:14:11.479 --> 01:14:15.520 gonna judge somebody like that as harshly as someone else who does get it and 904 01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:19.880 who has you know, been exposed to more so. So No, we're 905 01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:25.800 not saved by you know, getting a PhD. Sean, what's up? 906 01:14:39.199 --> 01:14:43.840 Yeah, so I had a question. So I was reading with also Ideology 907 01:14:43.880 --> 01:14:50.760 by Michael Pamanzanski. Yeah, so what is the difference between the essence energies 908 01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:57.960 fiction and the Catholics? Absolutely device simplicity. I mean, there's a whole 909 01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:01.199 lot of talks that you go look at. I mean I've addressed that probably 910 01:15:01.640 --> 01:15:06.239 fifty times in the last seven years. So I would say go check out 911 01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:09.760 those talks. I did a whole lecture, for example, through the on 912 01:15:09.800 --> 01:15:15.880 the Orthodox Faith by John Damascus. But to make it very simple, Roman 913 01:15:15.880 --> 01:15:19.640 Catholics, for example, when they see the Theophanes in the Old Testament, 914 01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:27.680 typically will say that it's not God himself. The Orthodox view appeals to the 915 01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:30.960 essenceyenter distinction to say, when it says in Leviticus nine that the glory of 916 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:34.800 God appeared to Moses into all of Israel, it really was the glory of 917 01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:38.760 God. It wasn't an angel. It wasn't a hologram, It wasn't a 918 01:15:38.840 --> 01:15:42.680 created thing. You can't call angels and created things the glory of God. 919 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:47.800 Only God is uncreated. God's glory is not a creature. And so ultimately 920 01:15:47.800 --> 01:15:54.640 the debate in terms of history ends up being a debate between the barley Mites 921 01:15:54.720 --> 01:16:00.920 and Palamas about the transfiguration, because Palamas says, the transfiguration light is the 922 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:06.319 same glory light of all the Theophanes in the Old Testament. So I just 923 01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:12.119 lectured through literally every theoten the in the Torah. It took three hours. 924 01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:15.039 We went through every reference in the recent talks that I did. You can 925 01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:19.920 go watch those and to come away from all of those as if it's not 926 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:25.600 the son of God in time and space, if it's not the actual energetic 927 01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:30.239 divine presence of the Sun in time and space, is utterly stupid. But 928 01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:33.520 that is the Roman Catholic position, that it's not the logos, because how 929 01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:40.359 can an absolutely simple God appear in time and space? Okay? And then 930 01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:45.079 one more questions, sovine providence, I'm not calvinists, I'm remember it with 931 01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:50.439 the best see but what is the difference between divine providence and the habits understanding 932 01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:57.159 of like determinism. Right, So the Calvinist doctrine makes God the direct cause 933 01:16:57.239 --> 01:17:01.840 of every event, so typically they don't really make a big distinction between primary 934 01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:06.720 and secondary causes. As Orthodox, we believe that God has a permissive will 935 01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:11.239 in the sense of his divine providence, where he allows evil things to occur, 936 01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:15.319 but he is not the direct cause of evil. There's secondary causes, 937 01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:21.079 which are creaturely causes, whereby creatures are able to act in an evil way 938 01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:26.359 against God or against the good. And that's a feature of the way the 939 01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:30.960 world's created, because created beings have their own created natures. And so, 940 01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:34.640 for example, many Calvinists, maybe in all of them, they share the 941 01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:40.720 same position as many Muslims that because God is the direct cause of every event, 942 01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:46.840 they they affirm a form of occasionalism, which is that God literally is 943 01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:51.239 destroying and recreating the world at every second. And they say that to be 944 01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:56.439 consistent with the idea that there are no secondary causes. So that's typically what 945 01:17:56.560 --> 01:18:01.079 a Calvinist means when they talk about trick. Calvinists when they talk about predestination, 946 01:18:01.319 --> 01:18:05.880 like John H. Jonathan Edwards, had this view. It's basically the 947 01:18:05.920 --> 01:18:11.720 same as the Islamic view. So it's just pretty telling. I think if 948 01:18:11.760 --> 01:18:16.439 you look at a lot of classical Calvinist theology, it actually aligns up with 949 01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:29.199 a lot of Islamic theology as well. Yeah, good questions. John Damascus's 950 01:18:29.239 --> 01:18:33.800 discussion on providence and secondary causes is very good too. Mark in the on 951 01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:51.800 the worthoxy gotta unmute Mark, sincere hypocrite three dollars. According to Redeemed Zuomer's 952 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:56.159 logic in the debate, I should just read the Bible. And if that's 953 01:18:56.199 --> 01:19:00.239 the case, then why would I not pick Marcian's cannon. Well, in 954 01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:04.119 the debate he said something like, you could conceivably study and come to your 955 01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:08.880 own canon of scripture. Yeah, exactly. I've made that argument many times 956 01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:12.359 to Protestants, like, Okay, so if I study really hard and I 957 01:19:12.439 --> 01:19:15.920 pray really hard, how can you tell me that I'm wrong if I come 958 01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:19.399 to completely different canon of scripture than you? Uh? And well, why 959 01:19:19.479 --> 01:19:25.279 not Marcians canon? How does redeem Zumer not realize that he's totally arbitrary and 960 01:19:25.359 --> 01:19:30.359 circular when he puts the car before the horse? Exactly? Scumabar ten dollars? 961 01:19:30.439 --> 01:19:33.520 Are we already did that? One? Anonymous. I asked Redeem Zoomer 962 01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:39.279 if he would affirm personal properties in the trinity and what distinguishes them from the 963 01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:44.479 Father. If we start our triadology with a divine essence, then I think 964 01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:47.079 you're arguing it doesn't work exactly. The more than I read the Church Fathers, 965 01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:51.560 the phili oquay itevibly turns into modalism. Yeah, I mean, Photius 966 01:19:51.680 --> 01:19:58.319 argues in the mysticogy that it's a diad, andconceivably it could also become modalism 967 01:19:58.359 --> 01:20:02.600 as well. I'll see thirty five dollars. I appreciate the post analysis. 968 01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:08.479 Also, Father Moses, boys listening to you, maybe want to mention my 969 01:20:08.600 --> 01:20:14.399 son's affectionately knowing you as the lecture man. I guess I'll take it, 970 01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:17.840 lecture man, thank you. And I wish that I could make it to 971 01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:20.199 your Las Vegas event to chill with you guys. Yeah, I remember we 972 01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:23.960 will be live June twenty second, Las Vegas. Go get your tickets, 973 01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:43.720 kievan Narvis. I just had a couple of questions relating to tonight's debate. 974 01:20:44.279 --> 01:20:48.119 Maigi brought up in the debate that Christ doesn't want the church to be scus 975 01:20:48.159 --> 01:20:53.319 and then and therefore, you know, established the councils such as Jerusalem. 976 01:20:55.560 --> 01:21:02.960 But I'm wondering how like without an emperor, there's local synods. But the 977 01:21:03.039 --> 01:21:08.560 whole reason Constantine called the Ecumenical Council is because there was a lot of local 978 01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:16.239 synods disagreeing. Is that is that right? Uh? I'm not sure if 979 01:21:16.600 --> 01:21:20.920 he specifically called it because a lot of local sinats are disagreeing, it could 980 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:29.199 be I'm not sure. So my question is there's a lot facing the Church 981 01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:34.560 of the moments, such as the EPs initiatives and yeah, you know all 982 01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:40.560 of them. So some of these I feel like we could be more united 983 01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:44.479 if we had some type of the ecumenical council, but we can't have one 984 01:21:44.520 --> 01:21:49.920 of those. So how do we go about Well, yeah, I mean 985 01:21:49.920 --> 01:21:53.600 there's no easy answers to this. And if you look at church history, 986 01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:57.079 some of these types of schisms that are parallel to this, I mean you're 987 01:21:57.119 --> 01:22:01.600 talking like things that last for like one hundred years, so we could conceivably 988 01:22:01.680 --> 01:22:05.199 have some situation like that. So I don't know what the answer is. 989 01:22:05.239 --> 01:22:10.520 I mean, ideally, you're right that the solution would be a pan Orthodox 990 01:22:10.560 --> 01:22:15.479 synod, but the problem is that the state powers behind for example, the 991 01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:19.159 ep they're not going to allow a Pan Orthodox synod with the other patriarch, 992 01:22:19.359 --> 01:22:30.439 right, so until perhaps some force removes that control that the power leads have. 993 01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:34.119 Maybe it might be fifty years from now, it might be a divine 994 01:22:34.199 --> 01:22:40.279 providence in a long period of time. We just don't know. You know, 995 01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:43.960 we're in one of these situations where you know it's going to be a 996 01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:53.680 problem for a while. So with are you familiar with the upsala in nineteen 997 01:22:53.760 --> 01:23:02.000 sixty eight record the what upsala upp s a l A. It's it's basically 998 01:23:02.159 --> 01:23:12.760 the EPs green initiative that was approved by most of the churches, including the 999 01:23:12.840 --> 01:23:21.720 Russian Church. Yeah, like the eco initiatives interesting and I was wondering, 1000 01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:26.640 like I was surprised to see that the Russian Church signed on to that. 1001 01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:34.359 I'm sure that had geopolitical baggage, But how can would an ecumenical council be 1002 01:23:34.439 --> 01:23:43.600 the only way to get like back from that, like withdrawal that or uh, 1003 01:23:43.920 --> 01:23:46.680 well, I mean it depends on what I mean. I don't know 1004 01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:55.520 what this is or what is it? Upp epsala I believe so not the 1005 01:23:55.600 --> 01:24:08.960 best with spelling, but it was in nineteen sixty eight at the World Council 1006 01:24:09.039 --> 01:24:15.199 of Churches, which is kind of why I was surprised the Russians accepted it 1007 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:17.960 from the World Council of Churches. Well, I think the Russians are no 1008 01:24:19.279 --> 01:24:26.199 different. Certain jurisdictions have removed themselves from whatever degrees of participation they were involved 1009 01:24:26.239 --> 01:24:30.960 in in the nineteen sixties. I think that the Russia, the MP was 1010 01:24:31.119 --> 01:24:35.359 under the sway of the Soviets, and there were actually a lot of Soviets 1011 01:24:35.439 --> 01:24:44.000 in the UN and the World Council Churches. So I'm not exactly sure what 1012 01:24:44.239 --> 01:24:49.439 level of participation like, for example, there might be some I think Antioch 1013 01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:53.199 or somebody is not part I don't think Rocorps is a part of it. 1014 01:24:53.920 --> 01:24:59.680 So whether to what degree the participation is I'm not sure. But sometimes it'll 1015 01:24:59.680 --> 01:25:02.800 be like, okay, well we will be a member who presents papers, 1016 01:25:03.359 --> 01:25:05.560 but that doesn't mean that were signed on to all these things. But I 1017 01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:14.039 wouldn't be surprised if in nineteen sixty eight the MP that it was probably compromised 1018 01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:17.039 and signed on to this. Yeah, I mean, this is this is 1019 01:25:17.119 --> 01:25:23.600 new to me. I haven't even heard of this. Last question real quick 1020 01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:30.880 on lay LAY members kind of duties. I saw some books, and unfortunately, 1021 01:25:31.159 --> 01:25:38.199 the only parish that speaks English around me is a Greek parish. So 1022 01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:45.880 they had a set of books for Lynz that were done by sister Vasa, 1023 01:25:46.520 --> 01:25:54.039 And I'm sure you're familiar with her. Would it be a duty of mine 1024 01:25:54.159 --> 01:25:58.000 to like bring that up to the priests and say, do you know like 1025 01:25:58.159 --> 01:26:03.439 what this author spouses or do I just leave it there and let people read 1026 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:09.000 her content? Well, I mean, I guess that's up to you, 1027 01:26:09.479 --> 01:26:13.319 depending upon you know how well you feel like you know him. But I 1028 01:26:13.319 --> 01:26:15.720 don't think it'd be wrong to point that out, but I would just do 1029 01:26:15.800 --> 01:26:27.800 it in a very respectful way. Twoton Storm the cat ten dollars. I 1030 01:26:27.840 --> 01:26:30.359 read that in the Talmud there is a belief that God has a feminine side. 1031 01:26:32.039 --> 01:26:36.039 I think that the Talaman has a lot of speculations from a lot of 1032 01:26:36.079 --> 01:26:40.880 different rabbis. This is one of the things that kind of makes it relativistic. 1033 01:26:41.399 --> 01:26:44.039 So it's like these endless debates of all their rabbis, and it's like 1034 01:26:45.039 --> 01:26:46.840 we don't get anywhere, and it's relative ized, and then you can kind 1035 01:26:46.840 --> 01:26:51.359 of make the text into whatever you want. Some of the Kabbalists do believe 1036 01:26:51.399 --> 01:26:57.880 that there is that feminine side that they based on Chakaina, and they'll argue 1037 01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:00.640 that there's some sort of like a manifestation of the goddess. Switch Again, 1038 01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:04.880 I don't I wouldn't agree with any of that. The Vulcan handsign is star 1039 01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:11.000 Trek is the blessing of the Yeah, I think when he does this, 1040 01:27:11.520 --> 01:27:15.880 Uh, Leonard Nimoy, I think did get that from the Koha nine blessing. 1041 01:27:15.960 --> 01:27:20.119 I think that's correct. Tanji, what's up? No way, the 1042 01:27:20.199 --> 01:27:28.680 other guy dropped off. Mark, it's getting pretty late. About to call 1043 01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:33.079 it a night, I think, uh huh. I want to show off 1044 01:27:33.159 --> 01:27:39.039 something proud of. I got a browser here. This is Jay Dyers, 1045 01:27:39.920 --> 01:27:45.600 much vaunted, much sought after philosophy one oh one. Now he just got 1046 01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:47.119 this page up. We are just testing it out. You guys are some 1047 01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:49.840 of the first people in the world to see it. I want to say, 1048 01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:53.800 for my part, it's not philosophy one oh one. I think this 1049 01:27:53.960 --> 01:27:59.239 is a miss mistitling. I really think is as like philosophy unleashed, because 1050 01:27:59.279 --> 01:28:02.039 the philosophy one course, they give you kind of some useless information that you 1051 01:28:02.079 --> 01:28:06.680 can't make sense of. Jay actually lays out over twelve weeks, dozens and 1052 01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:11.800 dozens of hours put into just the presentation of this, let alone the hundreds 1053 01:28:11.800 --> 01:28:15.880 and thousands of hours of research that it takes to have a coherent evolution and 1054 01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:19.359 history of the origins of philosophy, the uses of philosophy, the different ways 1055 01:28:19.399 --> 01:28:24.680 to look at it over time, and how that has been brought about to 1056 01:28:24.760 --> 01:28:29.960 what we have today, which is almost an absence of philosophy on the objective, 1057 01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:34.479 logic and reason side, in an overabundance of woke philosophy that is irrational 1058 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:38.399 and is made up day by day as people are like, I think we 1059 01:28:38.439 --> 01:28:41.800 should bring racism back, and then here's a justification, and then it gets 1060 01:28:41.840 --> 01:28:45.079 wokeified and spread out, and then all of a sudden you have a bunch 1061 01:28:45.119 --> 01:28:48.840 of communist socialist ideas where you become the property in action. You need to 1062 01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:53.479 be able to stand on your own ground. It helps to have a foundation 1063 01:28:53.640 --> 01:28:57.119 in philosophy because it's a method define truth when you get down to it. 1064 01:28:57.159 --> 01:29:01.199 Philosophy is there because you love I'm going to put you on something crazy real 1065 01:29:01.319 --> 01:29:08.039 quick. Most of these Zoomer Jimbros are consuming macro guzzling synthetic dyes and synthetic 1066 01:29:08.119 --> 01:29:12.319 sweeteners on the daily. They don't even know it. Goofy af. There's 1067 01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:15.199 nothing great about that. Do not listen any further unless you are an Alpha 1068 01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:19.279 or Sigma male. This is important and there could be consequences. There's a 1069 01:29:19.359 --> 01:29:25.479 new certified Sigma male pre workout powder for sigmas only. It is guaranteed to 1070 01:29:25.520 --> 01:29:30.239 empower you to dominate your co workers, fire your boss, aggressively, gamble, 1071 01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:33.800 or invade a small village. Chad mode stands out from the crowd by 1072 01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:40.479 excluding artificial flavors, preservatives, sweeteners, and dyes. We've even avoided so 1073 01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:45.479 called natural flavors which are actually not natural at all, ensuring a clean and 1074 01:29:45.560 --> 01:29:47.319 effective formula experience the pure goodness