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You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio
Network and this is six Degrees of John

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Kiell. Hello and welcome to the
six Degrees of John Kill podcast. I'm

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your host, Barbara Fisher. This
evening, I'm talking with Alexandra. We've

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spoken with her before, early on, fairly early on. She is a

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shamanic practitioner and an anthropologist, and
tonight we're going to talk about the similarities

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between alien abduction scenarios and experiencers and
shamanic initiation among shamanic practitioners. Hello,

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Hi Barbara, that's good to see
you again. You two, thanks for

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having me back. No worries now, if anybody hears any like little dog

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Shortles, it's because Alexander has a
really cute dog who sometimes wants to add

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her you know, feelings on the
matter. So if it happens, it

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happens, don't worry about it.
So the reason I brought this topic up

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with you is I was I went
underwent shamanic training with one of your same

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teachers, and so we have that
in common. And you know, alien

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abduction is something that I of course
know about, but for a long time

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I just kind of went it's over
there. I'm not going to look at

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it, you know. So,
I mean, I've read Whitley Strieber's book

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Communion and the second book, Transformation, and a couple of his other books.

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I did read some of Bud Hopkins
books, but I was I was

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very distraught when I read the transcripts
of some of his some of his work

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because he was asking under hypnosis,
which he was an artist so probably shouldn't

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have been hypnotizing anybody, but under
hypnosis he was asking leading questions, the

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same exact leading questions that I was
taught as a journalist to kind of ask

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and sort of manipulate a KG source
into saying what you knew. They knew

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but they didn't want to say.
So I was like, you're basically giving

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them information and they're spouting it back
at you. That's not that's not no.

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So for the longest time, I
pretty much, you know, oh,

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that's the X Files thing. I'm
not gonna you know, bother about

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it. I didn't read much about
it. I didn't pay attention to John

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Mack. Mostly, I just didn't
read about it. And fairly recently within

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the past year, a friend suggested, he's like, you know, you

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really should read some of the more
interesting stuff. He said, you know,

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because I agree with you on Bud
Hopkins and David Jacobs. He's like,

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they're no. He was like,
but there's there's some cases that are

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really really unique and really strange.
And he said, and I think with

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your with your experience with shamanic work, it's gonna sound familiar. And so

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that's what I did, and then
I started seeing things going oh oh oh,

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okay. So when you when you
talk about shamanic initiation or shamanic journeying,

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can you explain kind of what that
entails to the listeners. Well,

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it's a big question. Sometimes I
just tell people when they ask me what

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it's like, I'm like, have
you seen the movie Scared It Away?

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Because it's a lot like that.
So let me see, what would you

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like me to approach it from the
point of view of my personal experience or

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sort of the anthithological literature on shamanic
initiation. Go ahead and start with your

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experience, and then you know,
we can kind of go well, as

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Mercia Elliott says, or as Michael
Harner says, these are the steps,

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and then we can go right.
Okay, So you know, like you.

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I didn't pay a lot of attention
to the UFO abduction stuff either,

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and I'm looking forward to learning more
about it tonight because I do listen to

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all the right podcasts. I listened
to this one and Strange Familiars and Where

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did the Row Go? So you
know, I hear people's accounts there.

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But when I was a kid,
I was really really scared of UFOs and

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alien stuff, and so I just
didn't want to go there. I was

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super into Berry the folklore and mythology
and spirits and ghosts and all of that,

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but I was scared to death of
aliens. Right. So anyway,

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I come from a family that on
my mom's side basically has done a lot

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of cunning cunning craft type stuff,
and so when I was a kid,

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it was always accepted that people in
my family have the ability to you know,

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see spirits or have you know,
quote unquote psychic abilities or something.

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So I was never pood food for
any of that. But my mom didn't

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want me to go there because over
time, every generation it had sort of

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gotten more and more something that you
keep quiet about. And because I also

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was a major nerd, my mom
was like follow the academic path because that

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is a safe round. And I
did, and I went all the way

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through to the PhD. And I
never had any sort of a plan B.

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And when I got well into my
graduate school period, I started to

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get really depressed. And when I
what started to bring me out of that

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depression was when I when it occurred
to me that the things that I had

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started to think about as like flaws
in myself, such as being very sensitive

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and open to things, and you
know that actually these could be strengths just

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in a her context. And I
started to consider that although I really loved

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the academic work, and I love
art, anthropology and archaeology, and I'm

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really passionate about that, but I
started to think, maybe I need to

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find some outlet for this other side
of me, because it wasn't allowed to

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come out and play within academia.
And so then I well, just as

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I was about to finish up,
my mom got really sick, and so

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I hurried up and finished my dissertation
defense and finished writing the dissertation, and

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I moved back to California where my
mom was living, to take care of

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her. And at the time,
I thought, you know, it looked

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like she might have you know,
weeks or months to live or something.

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She was in intensive care at the
beginning, but fortunately she ends up living

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for another four years. And I
was her careacter give her during that time.

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And I know this sounds like I'm
not addressing the question, but I

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am. You are You'll get there. Being a care of youver is incredibly

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stressful. And it was like twenty
four seven, three sixty five, and

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there was this constant like is today
going to be the day that she dies?

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Kind of thing, and my mom
were very and I were very close,

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so you know, I was really
I'm so grateful to have had that

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time, but it made me lose
a bunch of hair, honestly. I

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mean it was very stressful. So
I started meditating to try and cope with

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the stress. And when I was
meditating, I started having these spontaneous I

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guess you could call them sort of
visions, but they weren't with my physical

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eyes. They were with like my
mind eye. But they were not something

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that I deliberately called up. Like
when we talk about day dreaming, you

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know, that's we usually imagine something
or somebody is fantasizing or they're deliberately imagining

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something. And this was more like
a dream and that it came spontaneously,

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but I still had my waking consciousness, so it was a lot like a

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very lucid dream. And the stuff
that I was seeing was really weird.

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And little by little I started to
these creatures and beings that would appear,

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and sometimes they would also show up
in my dreams, like my sleeping dreams.

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They'd say things to me, and
they would usually turn out to be

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very wise in the longer, and
they didn't start out by, you know,

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demanding anything. Oftentimes it would just
they would just sort of show up

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and leave me wondering what the heck
was that. I actually had a friend

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when I was in grad school.
I mean, we're still friends, but

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when we were in grad school together, she did a workshop on shamanic journey

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and her area of focus is Anglo
Saxon, England, and so she for

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her this you know, related to
her research and that she was doing,

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and so she told me about the
experience and she kind of, you know,

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she just holds space for it,
kind of like, well, that

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was really interesting. I don't know
what to make of it, but that

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was fun and cool. I couldn't
do it with her because I had to

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teach at the time they were doing
well. Anyway, my research was all

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my dissertation research was on mirrors in
basically all across temperate Eurasia, so from

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Britain to Japan and in late prehistory
pretty much. And so if you've read

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any of the ethnographic accounts or like
you were saying, elliotte, if you've

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read any of those works on shamanism, you will have read about how Central

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Asian and Siberian shamans often have mirrors
as tools and as part of their regalia.

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So as I was doing this research
that I was also doing research into

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shamanism, you know, related specifically
to the mirrors. Well, so when

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these spontaneous things started happening, there
was a part of my line that was

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like, this looks a lot like
you know, some of those accounts that

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I've read where you know, people
start getting a call from spirits. But

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that can't be happening to me,
I mean not as a little old man,

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right. So I kept up with
it even after my mom had passed

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away. I was still meditating,
and I didn't I didn't try to discourage

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these things or anything, because I
was curious about them and I. At

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one point I had a classic shamand
journey happened during one of these. So

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I saw this hole in the ground
at the foot of a tree, and

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I knew I was supposed to go
into that hole, but it was dark

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and scary, and I said,
I just spultaneously said who's who, guide

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me down this hole? And this
guide appeared and said I will, and

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we go down the hole and then
it was full of all kinds of just

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really weird stuff and I was like, oh, so that's what that's like.

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And again, you know, this
thing of like going through the hole

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into the earth that sit down into
the lower world. That is just a

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classic testbook kind of experience. And
then meanwhile I started having spontaneous dreams and

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appearances of a a person who could
shape shift but basically appeared like a hag,

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kind of you know, your classic
fairy tale hag. And she would

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tell me things that you know,
turned out to be true, and she

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wouldn't tell me who she was for
years. She made me work for that.

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And then at the same time,
I started getting sick, and it

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was you know, your basic chronic
illness type thing, you know as pains,

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trouble, sleeping exhaust just really bad
conic fatigue. Went to the doctor.

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Nobody could diagnose it. Mostly they
weren't even really interested in trying.

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Honestly. There was a lot of
just kind of like shrug, well,

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you know, everybody's tired. It's
like, yeah, everybody's tired, but

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most people don't find one flight of
stairs and then have to lie down for

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a while, especially when in their
thirties, you know. And so at

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some point again there's this part of
my mind that's going you know, it

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sounds a lot like that whole thing
where you get sick, you get the

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call from the spirit, then you
get sick and nobody can fix it,

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and what do you think about that? I'm like, I don't know,

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but that can't be happening to me. And just when I finally was sort

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of coming around to like, there, this is way too much coincidence to

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just be I think this actually is
happening to me, my cousin said to

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me, Hey, I'm gonna take
this workshop, this like shamanic workshop.

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Do you want to do this with
me? And I was like, yeah,

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I think I better. And so
that was how I connected with the

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teacher that we have in Commons and
since then I've done the full apprenticeship and

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completed that. So it was just
kind of funny because if I didn't have

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that anthological background, I probably wouldn't
have known where to file this information to

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speak. And so when this happens
to people who don't have that background,

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I can imagine it being even more
traumatic. I mean, getting chronically ill

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is about it to begin with.
But I feel I was very lucky because

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I had a way of contextualizing,
and I I also I did my grad

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work in Minnesota, and there's a
large among community in the Twin Cities and

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they still have practicing shamanic traditions,
continuous traditions, and you know, I

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had friends who they're you know,
they would have to excuse their students from

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exams because it would be like,
oh, you know, my brother's going

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through the shamanic in issues where illnesses, so the family have to be there.

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So that was like a thing that
happened. So I was aware that

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this, you know, it's still
a real thing that is still happening to

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people all over the world all the
time. No one it does, it

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makes it makes perfect sense. And
uh, one of the one of the

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ways I've looked at at the commonalities
of shamanic practice or initiation and spontaneous UFO

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abduction experiences, because of course these
are processes. It's not just a one

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and done. Usually it's a continual
communication with a non human intelligence. One

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of the things that I think,
particularly in the Western world, is most

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of us don't have a living shaman, living shamanic tradition to point to look

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at understand see. I mean,
we don't even have movies about it so

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much in the West. I mean
there's a few, but mostly no,

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there really isn't You have bits and
pieces, you have some folklore. How

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many people actually study that, not
very many. But I feel almost like,

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you know, we did our best
to get rid of those practices because

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they were quote unquote primitive, and
we were all scientific and materialist and we're

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way too logical, so we don't
need that. We're all you know,

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the Christian Church tells you this,
this, and this is true. There

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it is boom cut off, done
and to the point where, now you

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know, atheism is more Western than
you know Church anymore. So we kind

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of just shut off our spirits.
And you know, if you have traditions

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with communication with spirits and then you
cut it off. That doesn't mean the

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spirits are going to go away.
And if you even if you don't believe

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in them, they're not going to
go away. Yes. Yes, It's

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like I don't believe in Bigfoot,
while Bigfoot believes in you, buddy,

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and he just walked in front of
your car. It's like, you know,

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what do you say when you have
just you know, a normal person

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suddenly wake up and there's these little
guys with you know, big heads and

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big eyes and a bright light.
What do you? What do you do?

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There's no context for that, and
that that's that's where when I really

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started looking at some of the more
unusual experiences, I could find the threads

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that went with my shamanic experience and
other people's shamanic experiences and go, oh,

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wait a minute, wait a minute, something is happening here. So

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one of the things that I just
saw that was really interesting is there's a

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folkloreist called Thomas Bullard does great work, and he's done a lot of comparative

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folklore with UFOs and UFO abduction.
Essentially, he thinks of it as an

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emergent folklore that describes something that's older
than what we think it is, and

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he says that UFO experiences have these
these stages in common generally not all the

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time. But there's the stage of
being in captive, captivated or captured and

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you know, so you're abducted.
There's an examination, and there's physical procedures

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that's often where you get the implants, or there's surgeries that are done,

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or psychic surgery or sexual contact of
some sort. Then there's a conference where

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they talk with you, and this
isn't all happening in the same instance,

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it's sort of a it's steps.
Then they give you a tour of their

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quote unquote ship, which sometimes is
overtly made to be like a ship,

215
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but in other cases. There's a
really famous case with Strieber near the end

216
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of his first book where he talks
about going into this into the craft and

217
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it was dark and it was dank, and it was damp, and it

218
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smelled funny and it smelled kind of
like dirt, and I was like,

219
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dude, dude, that's the underworld. But yeah, so you get a

220
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tour, and sometimes it's not really
a ship, it's just some chamber.

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And then you have otherworldly journeys where
you fly on the ship quote unquote,

222
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or you go through these long hallways
and you come to these lands that are

223
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all these different colors, and I'm
like, oh, that's that's celestial stuff.

224
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Sometimes there's castles made of crystal and
I'm like, oh, yeah,

225
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I've heard about that too. And
then there's usually a message you have a

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job. You can be a healer. If you listen to what we say,

227
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you can help other people. And
people come back changed, and a

228
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lot of people become vegetarians or vegans. A lot of people become activists for

229
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human rights or animal rights or both. Some people come back pacifists, and

230
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most of them come back with some
kind of ecological awareness that they didn't have

231
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before. And I'm sitting here going, wow, that's Mother Earth talking to

232
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you right there. I don't know
what else to say. And so what

233
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I started looking at it that way? I remembered what Michael Harner said.

234
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You know, you have your selection
where the spirits come and say, oh,

235
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hey, we'd like they did with
you. You know, Hey,

236
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,440
we're over here. Hey come in
here and talk to me. Hi,

237
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I'm looking at you. So you
have the selection. Then you have an

238
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initiation, which sometimes involves dismemberment or
some kind of you know, opening up

239
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of the head or the chest and
putting things inside like sacred stones. So

240
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that's you know, that's just like
those UFO implants. Sometimes they exchange organs

241
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with you, so spirit will take
something out of himself and put into you,

242
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and then you have magical flights.
You go into the upper world realms

243
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and talk to other spirits and you
talk with higher entities and you come back

244
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with a job. Yep, and
you don't, No, you do not.

245
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And it's the same way with so
many times when people have said to

246
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,680
the quote unquote aliens, the grays
or whatever, you have no right to

247
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,039
do this to me, they say, we have every right to do this

248
00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:42,079
to you. Yeah, you know, I actually asked my spirit teachers about

249
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,920
this, and now this is just
my personal notes, as I'm not saying

250
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,319
that you know, this applies for
everybody out there. But they said,

251
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I was like, why do you
wreck our lives when we don't accept the

252
00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:57,640
call? And they said, well, we only kind of sort of partly

253
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:04,720
wreck your life. They said,
we call you in multiple lifetimes. If

254
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:08,400
you if you're being called in this
lifetime, you've probably been called in another

255
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,799
lifetime, and we will keep calling
you until you accept, and then once

256
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:18,680
you accept, will keep calling you
still, but like calling you. But

257
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:21,240
they said, the thing is,
if you accepted the call in a past

258
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life, guess what you still are
committed in our view. And they said,

259
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,960
the thing is part of the reason
your life gets so wrecked is that

260
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once you've stepped into that agreement,
you can't go back to living a normal

261
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life. And the metaphor that they
gave me was that as a drum is

262
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,880
to a shaman, right, Who's
because frequently we used drums too as a

263
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sonic driver to inner trance. Right. They said, as the drum is

264
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,920
to you, you are to us. And they said you are basically hollowed

265
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:03,000
out and you're given a very loud
voice so that you can transmit from us

266
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:10,480
to other people. And we will
beat you like a drum, so that

267
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000
you know, we will beat you
so that that voice you know comes out.

268
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:17,839
And it's they from their point of
view, and from what they tell

269
00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:22,200
me, the need is so urgent
that they don't have time to epp around

270
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,799
and find out. And but it's
not always that they're just being jerks about

271
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:30,759
it. It's just that one.
And I've known this from my own personal

272
00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:34,759
experience because I at one point,
after I had accepted this and everything,

273
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I had a little tip with one
of my spirit teachers and I was like,

274
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screw you guys, I'm going home. And they were like, ha

275
00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,000
ha ha, you can't see you
can't go home, like this is home

276
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now, and I very quickly realized
they were right, because you can't.

277
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You know, once you are doing
spirit work, you can't just go back

278
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,640
to like working your office jobs.
I mean it's not to say that you

279
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,000
can't function or anything. You can, but it's like, you know,

280
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,640
you're going to be doing stuff that, especially in modern Western society's regarded as

281
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:23,440
really really weirder. And if you
try and hide that or to in order

282
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,640
to fit in, or you try
to somehow you know, deny it,

283
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it just and that's why I got
so incredibly depressed in grad school. And

284
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I mean I was we're talking suicidal
ideation. It was a really deep depression

285
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,079
because you know, at my job, I'm like seeing spirits out of the

286
00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:44,880
corner of my eyes and stuff,
and yet I'm in this world where I

287
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,839
don't dare admit to that because I
will lose all my credibilities. It's funny.

288
00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:53,920
I listened to the Weird Studies podcast
and one of the posts was saying

289
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,640
that it's, you know, in
some ways so silly that in academia a

290
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:06,240
lot of times what is what is
seemed to give you the credibility to talk

291
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,359
on a subject is the fact that
you've never experienced with which is so backward,

292
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:17,119
but it's absolutely true. It's absolutely
true, especially if you're in a

293
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,920
science or science adjacent Yeah, and
so that you know, that was why,

294
00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:30,079
like internally psychologically, everything was falling
apart for me. And I think

295
00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:38,000
possibly part of the reason why in
in the West and modern times, why

296
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:44,799
the initiation often seems to go along
with your life just falling apart, is

297
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:52,839
because in traditional societies that had a
continuous shamanic tradition, there were all of

298
00:29:52,880 --> 00:30:00,359
the protocols in place to train people
and guide them through the initiation. There

299
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:04,319
were ritual ceremonies and all this kind
of stuff, and we don't have that,

300
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:11,240
And so a lot of the initiation
plays out both on the spirit level,

301
00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:15,759
but it also like it manifests in
your in your life. Yeah,

302
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:22,200
so you don't just do an underworld, you know, journey in the it's

303
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,279
not just like your spirit journeys to
the underworld, but like in metaphorical senses

304
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:32,160
sometimes or even literally because sometimes people
having here to have experiences and stuff.

305
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,759
But the time that I was caring
for my mom was very much a kind

306
00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:41,880
of a death experience because as I
said when I mentioned that I had no

307
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:48,400
plan B, what I was going
to. What I'm bringing that back to

308
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:53,200
is that by caring for my mom, I had to leave my academic career.

309
00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:56,720
There was no way I could go
back into it because I couldn't participate

310
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,839
in the stuff that you need to
do to become a professional. I couldn't

311
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,599
go to conference as, I couldn't
publish papers, I couldn't do research.

312
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,480
I couldn't even whip my dissertation into
shape to publish it, which is standard

313
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,440
practice. It is freely accessible,
but it's not like portally published. And

314
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,119
that was a huge grief for me, and not just because I really love

315
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,960
archaeology and anthropology, but because my
whole identity was in that. You know,

316
00:31:27,039 --> 00:31:30,640
I was an academic. I was
like a fourth generation academic on my

317
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,559
dad's side, and that was just
what I was going to do. And

318
00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:44,599
I had to completely like die to
myself basically, and there was also this

319
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:51,480
experience of being of like helplessness where
it's kind of like there's nothing I can

320
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,200
do to really change my situation.
This is what it is. I mean,

321
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:59,119
I guess technically I could have just
told my mom Sia, but I

322
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:04,480
wasn't gonna do that. That wouldn't
be right, and and you know,

323
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,720
I loved her very much, so
so there was this sort of this I

324
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:14,359
really perceive, and it's not the
only initiation I've been through, because really

325
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:19,240
I feel like it's just kind of
one after another thing. But there's like

326
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:22,200
the first thing that happens is this
experience of kind of the old you dies

327
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:30,880
and then you are like kind of
burial phase and like decomposition where the old

328
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,039
you is dead but the new you
hasn't come into being yet, and you

329
00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:39,039
feel really disoriented and very just like
what is happening? Really? Then?

330
00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:44,799
Am I what does it of this
mean? And there's no point in starting

331
00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:51,880
any new projects, There's no point
in trying to reinvent yourself at this point

332
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,079
because you you can surrender to the
helplessness and just go with the flow,

333
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,359
which makes it easier somewhat, but
it's going to happen regardless, and then

334
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,960
there's a sort of believer and that's
when you come into your new phase of

335
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:15,000
life and you can sort of presume
being that that active an agent in your

336
00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:22,119
life. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of the one of the things

337
00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:30,880
that I think is very interesting when
we talk about initiatory experiences, and one

338
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,759
of the one of the things people
have said to me, it's like,

339
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:38,559
well, it's not exactly one to
one, and you know what, what

340
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:45,559
are these these UFO initiates supposed to
be doing. What is their job?

341
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,799
And I'm like, well, they
tell you what their job is. You

342
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:53,240
know, there's there's some people like
Ted Rice, who became a psychic and

343
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:59,519
he's he was, well he is, he's still alive. He's very very

344
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:06,279
accurate it with his with his readings, and as he went back through his

345
00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:12,360
life and looked at it through a
different lens, he realized he had been

346
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:21,920
essentially educated to do that from the
beginning. And he never really had a

347
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,159
normal life. You know, his
started in childhood, so he was he

348
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:39,239
was essentially put together and and there's
some initiative activities that happened. He's he's

349
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,840
in a book called Masquerade of Angels, and he wrote it with doctor Carla

350
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:55,119
Turner, and she did research into
abduction scenarios and abduction experiences because she had

351
00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:02,639
the experiences herself and her whole family
did. And so one of these experiences,

352
00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:07,800
he finally near the end of the
book figures it out and he said,

353
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,039
you know, I was a child
and I watched them pull a body

354
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:20,559
out that looked exactly like me,
and then they gave me this drink and

355
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,599
said drink this. And I'm like, oh, here we go, here

356
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,920
we go. Don't drink stuff and
fairy, don't do that, you know,

357
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,639
And he did because he was given
really no choice, much like you

358
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:37,400
were given no choice and there's no
right of refusal, as you say,

359
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:45,199
so he drank it and he died. He became paralyzed. He fell down,

360
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:49,599
and then he said he was floating
above his body, and he watched

361
00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:57,840
as they dismembered his body, and
then they used this black box to pull

362
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,000
his soul out and put in the
box, and then later on it was

363
00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:06,159
taken from the box and put into
the new body. As soon as I

364
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:07,760
read this, I'm like, oh, it's just like when bear takes you

365
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,639
apart and put you back together again
with extra stuff, right. You know,

366
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:20,440
it's just a more more sort of
technological looking version of that. And

367
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,679
you know, he was like,
I came back and I was really sick

368
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,320
when I when I you know,
came out of that dream or whatever it

369
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,880
was, and I was really sick
for like, you know, five six

370
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,000
months, and my family, you
know, was worried about me. I

371
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,159
was always having fevers and they couldn't
figure it out. And I'm like,

372
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,119
uh huh, yeah, okay,
the shamanic sickness. Yes, yes,

373
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:54,599
this happens. And but his story
is so it's so not your typical UFO

374
00:36:54,639 --> 00:37:04,159
abduction story, and yet there are
so many parallels with the shamanic story.

375
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,000
You know, these these stories just
go together really interestingly. And one thing

376
00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:16,639
that really got me is he has
an experience with reptoid beings the end of

377
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:23,320
the bipedal alligator headed nasty people,
and they do nasty things. They're terrible.

378
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:30,320
All I could think of was the
part in one of Michael Harner's books

379
00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:36,639
where he said, you know,
I went into the underworld and I met

380
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,000
up with these terrible creatures. They
had, you know, these big alligator

381
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:45,119
teeth and the big heads, and
they're following me around and they're all like,

382
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,280
you're terrible, we own you,
will eat your soul, you know,

383
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,039
and all of these awful things he
said. So when I came back,

384
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:55,679
I told the shaman, I'm like, these guys, it's my favorite

385
00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,760
response. He just laughed and said, oh, them, it's just them.

386
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,280
They do that. Don't listen to
them. They want you to listen

387
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,679
to them and and feel bad and
and do the wrong thing. They're just

388
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,199
trying to make you do the wrong
thing. Ignore them. They're just those

389
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,039
guys at all. I was like
when I read that book, I was

390
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:21,039
like, oh, Ted, man, it was those guys. Yeah,

391
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:27,400
definitely those sides. Yeah, yeah, I've had a few brief run ins

392
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,639
with those guys. They didn't appear
with the reptilian form to me, but

393
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,800
same same vibe. Yeah, you
belong to us, we created you.

394
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,840
Yeah, they're mean. But at
the same time, if you run into

395
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,119
them over and over and you have
support from your spiritual allies, you kind

396
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:59,800
of go, oh, yeah,
there you are again. That's nice.

397
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:08,519
Away it's yeah. And there's another
there's another story. It's from a documentary

398
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:14,159
called Witness of Another World. If
you ever get a chance. I think

399
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:19,440
it's free in a couple of places
on the Internet, and it's about the

400
00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:27,840
UFO experience of a young boy in
Argentina. He was from a gaucho family

401
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,760
on his dad's side, on his
mom's side. He was related to some

402
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:43,280
of the indigenous people who were who
had shamanic practices going back forever, and

403
00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:47,320
he as a boy, had been
told by his father, hey, go

404
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,679
get the horses, and so he
goes out with his horse to get the

405
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,519
other horses, and he gets lost
in a fog and as he's going through

406
00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:02,599
the fog, he comes up to
a a hut, a weird hut,

407
00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:10,800
and it was on stilts and there
was weird lights. And he looked up

408
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,559
and there was a ladder to get
in there, and he saw his dad,

409
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:21,239
grandfather in there, along with some
other beings. And he tied his

410
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,440
horse to like one of the struts
or the legs and went in and you

411
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:32,079
know, he talked with his grandfather
and then he came out God on his

412
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:38,239
horse, who was really freaking out
and not happy. And he went back

413
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,159
without the horses, and his dad
was mad at him, and you know,

414
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,239
took a belt to him and yelled
at him, and he was like,

415
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,360
but I saw this thing and there
were lights and I don't know what

416
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,440
happened, and my horses has freaked
out. His horse died like a few

417
00:40:52,480 --> 00:41:00,360
days later. Yeah. Yeah,
so there was something not good happy opening,

418
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,360
and it just the whole experience really
just shut this kid down. And

419
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,719
doctor Jacques Filat was one of the
first Westerners to talk with him about this.

420
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,719
This was back in the seventies and
he had his wife Janine with him,

421
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,000
who was a child psychologist, and
so he was really happy he had

422
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,000
brought her because she could help this
child and they spoke with him, and

423
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,559
what ended up happening over you know, a period of like thirty or forty

424
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:35,239
years, he just ended up becoming
a recluse. He had a farm.

425
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,039
The only person he really saw was
his mother because she lived with him and

426
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:46,199
he had his animals, and that's
who he interacted with. That whole like

427
00:41:47,599 --> 00:42:00,480
UFO thing just it it just destroyed
him essentially personally. Well interestingly, a

428
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:06,639
documentarian found out about him and was
like, you know, let's see what

429
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,599
happens if I bring doctor Valet back. Let's see what happens if we you

430
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:14,840
know, if we talk to people
on his mom's side of the family,

431
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,559
and what ends up happening is doctor
Valet remembers him, of course, and

432
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:22,639
he remembers doctor Valet. They talk. He will not talk about the exact

433
00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:28,039
instance. He just kind of talks
around it because he's still upset about it.

434
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:35,920
And his mother's people said, bring
him, bring him to his ancestral

435
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,639
village, bring him here, and
they do, and they initiate him and

436
00:42:40,679 --> 00:42:45,599
he can talk again, because that's
what they said. They were like,

437
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:51,719
this is what we do. That
was a spirit and it was coming for

438
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:57,280
you, and that's why you haven't
been able to do anything right because you

439
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:04,119
didn't understand the call and you weren't
able to talk with your ancestors the way

440
00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:08,320
we do. And so they taught
him and they initiated him and it essentially

441
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:14,159
healed him. So yeah, all
those spoilers people, there's so many spoilers,

442
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:15,760
but it's been out for a while, so I figure you've seen it.

443
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:23,199
But it's very much if you didn't
think of it as as UFO related

444
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,880
at all, if you didn't know
anything about it, you would see it

445
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:37,519
as a shamanic story absolutely or even
it's very similar to a lot of the

446
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:43,239
fairy folk who are two you know, they get abducted by the faeries,

447
00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:47,559
they disappear, they come back and
they're faery doctors now and they heal people.

448
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,360
Or like Bessy Dunlop, who was
one of the women in England or

449
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:59,760
Scotland, and she ended up getting
prosecuted for witchcraft, which is why we

450
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,880
have a record of what happened to
her. But she was just walking along

451
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,639
one day feeling bad because life was
not going well, when a spirit comes

452
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:13,639
to her. Now, this spirit
said that that he was actually a deceased

453
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:19,159
human but he lived in the fairy
realm and basically the Queen of Fairy had

454
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,679
sent him to be her familiar and
like help her out with stuff. But

455
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,039
she was basically like, oh wait, I don't want any part of this

456
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,880
my lifestyle, a lot of my
blace right now. And he's like,

457
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,079
yeah, well you don't get to
say no though, so so you know,

458
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,199
I mean, yeah, you know, Josh cutchins so like you already

459
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:44,480
know that there are these parallels,
but it just it blows my mind that

460
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:52,519
how similar they are and that they
happened in such a similar way, even

461
00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:58,000
within this context of the society,
that meaning the modern last you know,

462
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:02,039
that doesn't for these things to be
real. Yeah. Yeah. One of

463
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:07,079
my favorite, you know, fairy
things that happened in the twentieth century was

464
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:13,159
supposedly not even a fairy thing.
It was Joe Simonton, the chicken farmer,

465
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,920
minding his own business when he comes
upon a landed quote unquote UFO and

466
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:23,880
little little, little Italian looking guys
were cooking pancakes and they asked for water

467
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,960
and he gave it to him.
And I'm sitting here going how many stories

468
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:36,480
are there of fairies coming up to
the door asking for water or grain or

469
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,079
whatever, and then they gave the
dude some pancakes and flew away. Well,

470
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:47,440
Joe didn't ask for that for one
thing, and what is he supposed

471
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:54,039
to do with that? But it
wasn't. No, they were crappy and

472
00:45:54,079 --> 00:46:05,280
they had no salt, which again, fairies don't like salt. So yeah.

473
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,039
Yeah. And and that's another thing
about UFO occupants. They're always trying

474
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:14,280
to get you to drink something or
eat something, and I'm I'm always kind

475
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,119
of like, I don't know about
that. Maybe you shouldn't, I don't

476
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:22,079
think so. Uh, But yeah, that's that's one of the things that

477
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:28,000
you know, maybe the fairy lore
was our last in the you know,

478
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:37,039
Anglo Saxon West and Celtic West that
we had that was shamanically involved. And

479
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:44,360
when we've you know, finally destroyed
that and turned it into nursery tales and

480
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:51,559
ignored it for the most part,
that's when we started getting I don't know,

481
00:46:52,119 --> 00:47:01,840
UFOs and aliens and and all that. They get framed in this materialist

482
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:08,280
sort of way, the technological,
instead of looking numinous or whatever, because

483
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:15,000
there's no in the loud real so
just put on a new skin and show

484
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:20,360
up in a way. It's like, oh g. Some of my favorite

485
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,719
ones also are from the fifties,
similar to Simonon And there's a couple of

486
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:30,440
Italian stories where women are either you
know, wandering around in the mountains and

487
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:35,760
picking flowers, and you know,
the woman takes her stockings and shoes off

488
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,239
so she can wait in the creek
and and she's mining her own business walking

489
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,239
around and there's this egg shaped vehicle, you know, sitting on three legs,

490
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:52,599
and these little guys wearing space helmets
and capes because that's a thing whatever,

491
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:55,519
run up and they you know,
they steal her flowers and they yank

492
00:47:55,639 --> 00:48:00,039
or stockings off out of her hand
and run off. You know. I

493
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,480
was like, there's another Italian lady
who was putting her wash on the line

494
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:07,519
and they stole stockings and ran off. And then they were in the same

495
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:10,199
kind of like egg shaped and they
had these, you know, these helmets,

496
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,079
and I was like, that's the
early when they were like, oh,

497
00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:16,360
we're space people, and they just
weren't really good at it. You

498
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:27,480
know, they hadn't they hadn't figured
out what space people do yet, they

499
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:30,599
hadn't watched enough of the you know, nineteen fifties movies. They're supposed to

500
00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:35,159
have tentacles and stuff. They didn't, or maybe they just thought they were

501
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:44,639
icky. I don't know. Uh. Yeah. So when you when you

502
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:51,440
look at all of these stories,
I mean I like to look at them

503
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:58,039
as stories in a way, and
then analyze the motifs that you see.

504
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,480
So I'm kind of a Thomas Allard
person. I like to, you know,

505
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:08,440
dig in there and realize that these
these tales have been with us for

506
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:15,039
a very long time, and the
spirits have been calling people for a very

507
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:22,480
long time, and in a lot
of ways, I feel as if there

508
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:30,760
there has to be some kind of
way to bridge the gap between modern shamanic

509
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:39,480
practitioners in a Western model and UFO
abduction and kind of at least get an

510
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:47,360
exchange of information, you know,
I think that would help. Yeah,

511
00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:54,320
we're really those of us who were
brought up within a modern Western cultural background.

512
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,679
And that's a lot of people,
including even people who are actually indigenous,

513
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,599
but you know, their lands have
been colonized by you know, this

514
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:08,679
or that empire, and so like
it or not, they were, you

515
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:22,079
know, forcibly brought up within modern
Western modernity and all of those culturally specific

516
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:30,880
trainings and more and rituals of initiation
and all this. You know that that

517
00:50:31,519 --> 00:50:38,039
smooths the process of initiation, and
without that, it's all on the spirits

518
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:42,559
to do all of that. For
us, they do most of the training,

519
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:49,199
they do the initiation, and it's
it makes it just a lot more

520
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:53,559
difficult because you have to you know, it's like you have to reinvent almost

521
00:50:54,239 --> 00:51:01,480
almost every time when you're talking about
individuals. That's got to be tiresome.

522
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:12,000
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And
it's very psychologically difficult for the person who's

523
00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:21,880
going through it because You'll notice if
listening to people's accounts of their unexplained experiences,

524
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,480
you know, whether it's big foot
or ghosts or UFOs or what have

525
00:51:23,639 --> 00:51:28,920
you, there's this performance that you'll
hear people go through over and over and

526
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,800
over again, which is, well, I'm a skeptic, but or I

527
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:37,159
used to be a skeptic, butuck. And so the little ritual performance that

528
00:51:37,199 --> 00:51:40,519
you do is where you say that
you didn't believe in this kind of stuff

529
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,760
until the preponderance of your experience got
to be so big that you simply couldn't

530
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,880
deny it anymore. And so you
had to concede that there's something going on

531
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:58,159
here. And we have to go
through that because it's like, you don't

532
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:04,400
you have no credibility within sort of
Western what I think of as like meta

533
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,840
culture. You know, you have
no credibility if you just straight up say,

534
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:08,800
oh, yeah, you know,
I've been't thee in spirits of the

535
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,559
little kid they were having any doubt
about it? Yeah? I do too,

536
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:22,199
And but even so I still put
myself through that by doing that whole

537
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,840
Well, this can be happening to
me. I mean I never pooh poohed

538
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,679
that this happens to people in like
indigenous cultures, that wouldn't you know,

539
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:36,280
I totally take it for granted that
what they're describing is what they're experiencing.

540
00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:43,079
But surely that couldn't be happening in
me. And so you know, even

541
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:45,360
I had to go through this thing. But it's such a least of time.

542
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:50,320
It's such a waste of time,
and it's so silly when you look

543
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:58,800
at it from a bigger perspective,
in that when you look at cultures globally

544
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:07,239
and through to time, this tiny
little phenomenon of the past few hundred years,

545
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,760
in this tiny little corner of what
claims to be a continent but is

546
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,920
really more just like a weird,
bumpy peninsula that sticks off the end of

547
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:21,800
Asia by e Europe. And really
it wasn't even everybody there. It was

548
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:29,800
like the landowning, educated white male, you know, elite essentially, who

549
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:39,679
decided to adopt this absolutely crazy perspective
that the stuff that takes up such a

550
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,360
huge percentage of human experience everywhere and
every wind is not real. And I

551
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,360
mean to say the best to say
the best phrase, this is like an

552
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,960
understate. But it also just when
you look at it from that perspective.

553
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,559
It's like, I mean, I'm
not one to say that just because a

554
00:53:59,559 --> 00:54:02,639
lot of people believe something that makes
it true. But there's no denying that

555
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:09,519
this is a normal and natural part
of human experience on the global scale.

556
00:54:10,199 --> 00:54:15,719
And for this one tiny little corner
of people in this very very very short

557
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:23,400
period of time to think that somehow
they have a more accurate assessment of what

558
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:30,079
constitutes reality is delusional. It is
delusional. It is like a societal mental

559
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:38,239
illness, and we're all trying to
basically wake up out of that societal psychotic

560
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:46,679
break with no help, with no
help societally speaking. Yeah, one of

561
00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:52,119
the things that I find it,
I mean, it's even comedians see it.

562
00:54:53,079 --> 00:54:59,159
Eddie is Ard, you know,
he talked about how Europe made these

563
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,519
huge empires by going into other people's
countries and smacking a flag in it and

564
00:55:02,559 --> 00:55:07,400
going it's ours now, and they're
like, we live here, and it's

565
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,719
like it doesn't matter. Do you
have a flag? No, No,

566
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,639
it's part of the British Empire.
You know. It's like that is so

567
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,280
just psychotic. Really, I'm just
going to march into a country full of

568
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:34,760
people, and because I'm European I'm
gonna take it over. And that's that's

569
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,559
just how it worked. And then
all of the beliefs that came with the

570
00:55:38,599 --> 00:55:45,920
colonization were better than the beliefs that
were already there, and so they tried

571
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:54,039
to beat those beliefs out of people. And I yeah, yeah, that

572
00:55:54,239 --> 00:56:04,000
that also. It's one of those
I guess it just comes with the whole

573
00:56:04,039 --> 00:56:08,039
idea that you can just walk into
somebody's living space and say it's yours now.

574
00:56:08,079 --> 00:56:14,440
I guess, so that everything is
yours now, your thoughts are mine

575
00:56:14,519 --> 00:56:16,599
now here, have my thoughts there, you go, They're better than your

576
00:56:16,639 --> 00:56:21,440
thoughts, you know, have have
my philosophy, it's better than yours.

577
00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:31,119
Wow, it's just it's yeah,
it's really crazy. And it's amazing that

578
00:56:31,199 --> 00:56:36,320
there are still so many Indigenous people
that still keep trying to help us,

579
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,440
I know, right, and I
you know, to some extent, I

580
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,760
think that there are just genuinely good
people, and to some extent I think

581
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,000
they're just like, my god,
you guys are so dangerous, Like we

582
00:56:47,199 --> 00:56:51,199
have to snap you out of this
for the sake of everybody, because you

583
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,400
are just ruining it for everyone.
Yeah, which is absolutely true. And

584
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:01,239
there's still spirits keep trying to help
us too, and but you know,

585
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,800
we're so busy pretending that they don't
exist that we don't listen to them.

586
00:57:07,079 --> 00:57:15,280
So yeah, it's it's it's like
a mental illness and a spiritual one at

587
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:22,519
the same time, and we are
Tyson Young Paporta calls it a civilizational curse

588
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:27,760
that we are basically living under.
And we're all haunted because we in the

589
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,679
whole process of denying that anything that's
not physical exists, we have also neglected,

590
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:37,840
you know, generations worth of ancestors
and genocided a bunch of people as

591
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:47,000
well. There's yea of untended dead
around And so is it any wonder that

592
00:57:47,079 --> 00:57:54,840
we have so many people going through
mental health problems and just experiencing this existential

593
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:59,760
despair? Yeah? Well, and
it's also the issue that we didn't believe

594
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:05,639
in psychology until recently either true,
you know, and and the way that

595
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:10,199
we treated mentally ill people was you
know, I mean sixteen seventeenth century.

596
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:15,639
Oh just stick them in a dungeon
and chain them to the wall and let

597
00:58:15,719 --> 00:58:22,079
rich people pay to point fingers and
laugh. Wow. That helps. That

598
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:28,960
does a good job. Nice well
done, very therapeutic. Yes, uh,

599
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:37,519
you know it if you look at
the way that even today mentally ill

600
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:44,719
people are treated, it's it's shameful. And it's not like we haven't known

601
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:52,079
better for a long time. So
it's kind of you know, when when

602
00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:58,599
the Athens Lunatic Asylum was built,
it was built to be humanitarian care,

603
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:06,320
and it was built on a humanistic
basis, you know, all of it,

604
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:12,119
from the architecture, from the treatments, from the food, from uh,

605
00:59:12,719 --> 00:59:16,800
you know, having them work the
farms so they were doing something productive

606
00:59:17,239 --> 00:59:23,559
and learning skills. All of this
was meant to be compassionate care. And

607
00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:31,440
it lasted for about ten years and
then it became overcrowded and awful and you

608
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:38,280
know, but so that was what
it was right after the Civil War,

609
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:43,440
so it was the eighteen sixties.
So we knew better for a long time,

610
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:52,559
and it's just that that we would
backslide and we come to capitalism I

611
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:58,280
think as being part of the problem. Oh yeah, because everything has to

612
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:04,320
make money. It is in the
servi of making money and continuing to make

613
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:09,360
money and power. And while that's
going on, mind you you know,

614
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:16,559
after the the Civil War, we
were expanding into the West and committing genocide

615
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:22,880
on a large scale. So you
know, if people wonder what evil spirits

616
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,920
look like, that's what it looks
like. That is what it looks like.

617
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,480
I mean, okay, it's my
salty opinions, but yeah, it

618
01:00:30,519 --> 01:00:37,000
looks like capitalism. It looks like
thinking you're entitled to just commit mass murder

619
01:00:37,039 --> 01:00:42,199
because you would really like that patch
of land and there's somebody inconvenient on it

620
01:00:42,239 --> 01:00:49,239
already. I mean, yeah,
it's also doing things like killing the food

621
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:54,360
supply on that patch of land that
was keeping that patch of land good and

622
01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:01,239
alive, because grazing cattle is not
the same thing as as bis and and

623
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,239
that's how you get the dust bowl, and then you have the depression,

624
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:07,880
and then you have to have a
world war to get out of that.

625
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:16,280
So now we've had a history lesson
on top of everything else, solutions somehow

626
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,920
always end up being even worse than
the problem that they were supposed to solve.

627
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:29,719
I know, yeah, it's just
it's just ridiculous and and it just

628
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,800
it seems to well, it serves
a very small number of people, is

629
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:40,480
what it does. So one of
the things that I was going to say,

630
01:01:40,519 --> 01:01:47,960
and there's also other other commonalities that
I didn't really talk about. In

631
01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:57,239
UFO experiences, there's often animals being
cited in places that are unusual, like

632
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,920
you know, on a UFO,
but also like outside of people's windows looking

633
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:09,079
in, and they usually have very
large eyes because that's that's the grays.

634
01:02:09,719 --> 01:02:15,119
And I was like, you know, most of the people who do alien

635
01:02:15,159 --> 01:02:19,239
abduction before they knew anything about shamanic
practice, we're like, oh, well,

636
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,880
these are screen memories. You know. Yeah, think you saw an

637
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:23,800
owl, but you really saw a
gray and that's what it was. Or

638
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:27,239
you think you saw a deer,
but it really was a gray because they

639
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,920
got big guys. And and I'm
like, oh, but you know,

640
01:02:31,199 --> 01:02:38,639
shamanic practice, deer have always been, you know, deeply involved with humanity.

641
01:02:39,239 --> 01:02:45,079
Owls have always been deeply symbolic in
just about every culture, whether good

642
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:52,920
or bad or both. You know, rabbits the same way, these these

643
01:02:52,199 --> 01:02:58,719
and of course in shamanic practice,
we have animal spirits or spirits that can

644
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:04,960
be shaped like animals that can also
shape shift themselves. So of course you

645
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,679
know I'm reading this this you know, oh, that's just a that's just

646
01:03:07,719 --> 01:03:12,119
a screen memory that they implanted in
your head. And I'm like, are

647
01:03:12,159 --> 01:03:17,960
you sure. I mean, maybe
the animal was just involved. I mean,

648
01:03:19,239 --> 01:03:30,239
this is a thing about about animalism, right, is we are intricately

649
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:37,719
enmeshed in this web of relationships with
all the beings and they and as it

650
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:45,559
is, you frequently will hear said
about animism. It's like the world is

651
01:03:45,599 --> 01:03:50,679
full of persons, only some of
whom are humans, And in fact,

652
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:57,199
humans are a minority of the persons
who are around. And there are animal

653
01:03:57,239 --> 01:04:01,159
persons, there are spirit persons,
there are plant persons. Sometimes there are

654
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:09,239
geographical persons like rivers and mountains and
so on. And what makes them persons

655
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:15,760
is that they have a consciousness and
an agency of their own. And so,

656
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,559
you know, the shaman. You'll
always hear it said, well,

657
01:04:19,559 --> 01:04:23,039
the shaman, you know, works
for their community. And some people will

658
01:04:23,079 --> 01:04:26,079
say, well, you know,
you can't call yourself a shaman because that's

659
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:30,800
something that the community has to designate
you. And in a traditional culture that's

660
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:39,280
true, but it's a little bit
more tricky here in the West because a

661
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,960
large part of your community is denying
that any of those exists. But what

662
01:04:44,039 --> 01:04:48,840
has been impressed upon me is that
the community is also all these other beings.

663
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:55,239
Yes, and you work for them
too, because you know ideally what

664
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,519
your mission sort of is, or
I mean, at least this is how

665
01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:00,639
it is presented to me. And
maybe this it's not true for everybody,

666
01:05:00,679 --> 01:05:12,800
but is that you are trying to
create a dynamic equilibrium where everybody can flourish

667
01:05:13,519 --> 01:05:17,599
together. And it doesn't mean that
there's no death and there's no suffering or

668
01:05:17,599 --> 01:05:24,719
anything like that. You know,
death is there's life, and there's anti

669
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:32,480
life, and death is part of
the dynamic equilibrium. But what's not part

670
01:05:32,519 --> 01:05:38,599
of the dynamic equilibrium is, for
example, of killing all buffalo, killing

671
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:41,960
all the people who live on land
because you happen to want it, that's

672
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:48,119
anti life. And yeah, so
I have no problem with the idea because

673
01:05:48,119 --> 01:05:50,800
I see a lot a lot of
the spirits that ideal would do if you're

674
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:56,239
as animals, and I have no
problem with the idea that they actually are

675
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:02,960
animals. Instantly, my mind is
like, but what even is an animal?

676
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:09,880
You know, I don't know,
But but at the same time,

677
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,360
you know they do. They can't
shape change a lot, and maybe that's

678
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,039
just a skin that they choose.
Because you know, I really like animals

679
01:06:16,119 --> 01:06:23,679
and I am more trusting of animals
than I would be of spirits presenting as

680
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:30,079
human most of the time. Probably, And yeah, I'm I'm a lot

681
01:06:30,119 --> 01:06:32,920
that I'm a lot the same way. So it really seems actually like a

682
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:38,559
lot of people who end up getting
this call to practice is in the shamanic

683
01:06:38,599 --> 01:06:45,960
practitioner as kids are very inclined to
kind of wander off in the wood and

684
01:06:45,159 --> 01:06:49,440
talk to the animals and the plants, and in interestingly, I have read

685
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:54,719
that as well for indigenous cultures.
It's not just kids in the West,

686
01:06:54,760 --> 01:07:00,679
but and so that's sometimes in indigenous
cultures that have intact shamonic tradition, that

687
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,360
is recognized as a sign that that
kid is probably a potential candidate. It

688
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,760
all depends on whether they actually get
that calls to the spirits, which happens

689
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,559
only when they actually don't. But
but they're kind of seen as life and

690
01:07:14,719 --> 01:07:20,400
now that one's probably gonna get that
call. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

691
01:07:20,599 --> 01:07:28,119
I and yeah, how many of
us were wandering around in the woods talking

692
01:07:28,199 --> 01:07:31,679
to the trees and the you know, the animals, And I hear that

693
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:36,000
over and over again. This is
like something I have in common with so

694
01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:44,039
many people who get attracted to a
call to this path. Yeah, yeah,

695
01:07:44,639 --> 01:07:50,599
yeah, it's it's in fact,
one of the I mean, one

696
01:07:50,639 --> 01:07:56,280
of the things that I remember,
even as a small child was I trusted

697
01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,559
cats and dogs more than I trusted
most human people. You know, I

698
01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:06,360
could. And I also judged human
people by how dogs and cats and other

699
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:12,920
animals reacted to them. Absolutely.
I still think that's a pretty good indicator.

700
01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:15,760
Oh yeah, I mean that's to
this day. But even as a

701
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:23,079
really young kid, I could trust
the sense of animals around a person.

702
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:29,159
When I was really little, we
lived in the country. And I'm originally

703
01:08:29,239 --> 01:08:31,560
from northern California, and we lived
in a rural area. It's kind of

704
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,119
I like to call it the part
of California that nobody knows exists, because

705
01:08:35,159 --> 01:08:39,039
it's not it's not the beach,
it's not the Bay Area, and it's

706
01:08:39,079 --> 01:08:43,720
not the mountains, and it's not
the one country like in Tweed, and

707
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,520
but it's really rural. And we
had a little, you know, five

708
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,640
acre, but you know, and
I would just kind of go around and

709
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:57,479
like I was really interested in trying
to learn the names of plants and things,

710
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:02,680
which is still something that I I'm
really interested in. And but as

711
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,600
a kid, it was it wasn't
just like I would like to know what

712
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:12,079
the taxxonomical binomial of this plant specises. Who was like, I want to

713
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:18,520
know who this person is, right, And we had dogs and my parents,

714
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:25,159
And to be fair, this is
really more my dad because he he

715
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:28,840
was kind of hands off his very
His feeling was that dogs are perfectly the

716
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,279
same sinners and would keep me out
of trouble, and they did so if

717
01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:35,800
he wasn't home. And so I
would just like walk around with the dogs

718
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:42,479
and you know, hang out with
the animals and and the plants, and

719
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:46,119
we've learned their names and all that
kind of stuff. And I mean that's

720
01:09:46,159 --> 01:09:54,359
pretty close to my idea of paradise. So yeah, that's that's a lot

721
01:09:54,399 --> 01:09:58,760
what I did at my grandparents house. So yeah, as long as I

722
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,199
had the dogs with me too.
That if I had all three dogs,

723
01:10:01,239 --> 01:10:05,800
I was fine. Nothing nothing bad
would happen, and they would tattle of

724
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:13,640
me too if I went something I
wasn't supposed to, so which I did

725
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:23,439
anytime. My dad wouldn't be paying
close attentions often. Oops. Well,

726
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:30,359
I suspect that I inherited my ADHD
from him. So there's a certain tendency

727
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,039
to be inattentive. But interestingly,
that seems to also be something that's fairly

728
01:10:34,039 --> 01:10:38,760
common among people who end up all
the path. It's certainly not like a

729
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:45,039
required qualification, but it's definitely not
uncommon. Yeah. Yeah, I would

730
01:10:45,079 --> 01:10:53,239
think that some of those different,
differently connected brains would be, you know,

731
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:59,880
part of the whole gestalt of what
we're talking about. People who experience

732
01:11:00,119 --> 01:11:05,079
you a foe abduction and people who
experience shamanic spirit calls, that sort of

733
01:11:05,079 --> 01:11:11,840
thing. Yeah, I figured that
that all sorts of spectrums are involved.

734
01:11:12,079 --> 01:11:16,199
Yeah, yeah, because yeah,
absolutely. I remember this one time where

735
01:11:16,399 --> 01:11:21,560
my friend was just looking at me
like are you grated? Because I was

736
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:26,920
saying I was really surprised by how
much traffic there was on East Date Street

737
01:11:28,239 --> 01:11:30,760
on this one day, and she
was like, well, it's like the

738
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:35,600
Friday before Halloween or something like that, on holiday, and you know,

739
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,920
everybody's out shopping. And I was
like really, and she's like, how

740
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:41,560
do you not know this? And
I was like, well, how do

741
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,560
you not know what faith the moon
is in? I mean, I know

742
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:50,880
that I don't know, so no, I can't keep track of what day

743
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:56,279
of the week it is, So
yeah, yeah, that that tendency to

744
01:11:56,319 --> 01:12:00,640
be kind of you tune out a
lot of the stuff that you need to

745
01:12:01,239 --> 01:12:08,640
do or know in order to function
within capitalist society, which is a challenge.

746
01:12:09,119 --> 01:12:14,279
But you are very sensitive to a
lot of the kind of sparkles you

747
01:12:14,319 --> 01:12:18,239
know that that are what I think, you know, life is really all

748
01:12:18,279 --> 01:12:30,800
about, right, yeah, the
important stuff exactly. There's another interesting thing

749
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:39,920
that I wanted to ask you about
with well, okay, so John Kiel

750
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:43,560
back in the sixties noticed this.
He was one of the first people who

751
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:50,920
really started noticing that UFO experiences,
UFO abductions were very similar to things like

752
01:12:51,199 --> 01:12:59,760
fairy abduction, and that there were
all of these commonalities between psychic occurrences and

753
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:02,960
UFO witnesses, like you know,
he was one of the first people to

754
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,840
say, well, you know,
we can't. I mean, we've been

755
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:10,840
staring at the UFOs and getting the
descriptions of what they've done, and we've

756
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:15,920
watched them do their things, but
that doesn't really tell us anything. The

757
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,800
only thing that we can actually learn
from with UFOs is what the people who

758
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:28,920
witnessed them or experienced them experienced during
that time and then afterwards. And he

759
01:13:29,039 --> 01:13:38,640
said, if you ask any UFO
experiencer about their past. There's weird things

760
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:45,880
there. Grandma was a psychic.
Let's see so and so saw ghost.

761
01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:53,359
There's a poultergeist that came into the
house. Right after Mom and Dad saw

762
01:13:53,399 --> 01:14:01,520
the UFO. Something started leaving the
doors open and unlocked. The TV goes

763
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,239
out at the same time every night, blah blah blah, and it just

764
01:14:04,279 --> 01:14:11,279
goes on and on and on.
One of the things that he noticed and

765
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:15,760
that he began to say in some
of his writings was he believed that the

766
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:25,439
only quote unquote materially real part of
a UFO experience was the light. Most

767
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:30,000
of them start with a light in
the sky that then seems to turn into

768
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,159
a solid craft. And he said
that there was something about the light that

769
01:14:33,279 --> 01:14:42,439
was communicating with the witnesses, the
people who saw it, and that the

770
01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:50,199
rest of the experience was somehow communicated
either directly psychically or it was an imaginal

771
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:59,239
kind of dimension where he called it
paraphysical. So they could be physical sometimes,

772
01:14:59,279 --> 01:15:04,159
but they're not the times. One
of the things that is interesting is

773
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:12,720
I've never had an experience in shamanic
terms with a strange light like when I've

774
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:16,760
been doing underworld journeys or anything like
that. On the other hand, I

775
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,239
can just walk you down the street
or whatever and see a weird light,

776
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:25,239
and I've been seeing them all my
life. So I was wondering if you

777
01:15:25,359 --> 01:15:33,840
knew of any kind of anomalous light
phenomena through shamanic experiences or that you've read

778
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:44,760
about. So I was thinking about
this, and I have read references that

779
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:48,560
sort of say in passing that there
was some sort of light phenomenon that was

780
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:57,159
observed by the person who was having
the shamanic initiation call or something like that,

781
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:01,560
but I haven't actually seen any that
go into detail about it. But

782
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:11,119
I'm just trying to think, like, where do I even start, because

783
01:16:11,159 --> 01:16:16,279
there's so much that could be said
about this. Clearly, from everything from

784
01:16:16,279 --> 01:16:25,000
folklore to artistic representations. Light is
heavily involved in this, and it's everything

785
01:16:25,159 --> 01:16:31,880
from like depicting holy people with halos, two lights in the sky, lights

786
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:39,359
in the woods. I do have
one of my spirit my main spirit teachers

787
01:16:39,359 --> 01:16:45,479
sometimes will appear as just light and
then we'll take on a more human light

788
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:59,600
form, although that wasn't part of
my original experiences, but something that I

789
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:04,399
thought might be kind of interesting as
more like background context to this is when

790
01:17:04,399 --> 01:17:11,279
I was doing my dissertation research on
mirrors. Obviously, mirrors are shiny,

791
01:17:11,399 --> 01:17:19,039
that's like part of their technological nature, and archaeologically a lot of the context

792
01:17:19,119 --> 01:17:24,760
that we find mirrors in our burials. Now, partly that's just survivorship bias,

793
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:30,760
because burials tend to be underground.
Sometimes they're in some sort of building

794
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:32,840
that's made of stone or something like
that, and that to some extent will

795
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:44,119
protect them. But there's also obviously
clearly something going on where mirrors are deliberately

796
01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:47,640
placed in burials, and it's very
common for archaeologists to just be like,

797
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:51,600
well, yeah, you know,
it was like a precious object because it's

798
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:56,279
it's a big chuck of metal,
and you know, so it was like

799
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,520
part of their fancy possessions, and
so of course they were buried with it.

800
01:18:00,159 --> 01:18:03,159
Or sometimes you'll get well, of
course it's a woman's burial, and

801
01:18:03,399 --> 01:18:09,199
you know women in mirrors, right. But when you look at for example,

802
01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:14,079
Japan, you have these burials that
have dozens of mirrors, and they

803
01:18:14,119 --> 01:18:18,399
will be in many cases propped up
vertically along the sides of the coffin so

804
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:24,960
that the reflective side is facing in
towards the deceased person. Those mirrors are

805
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:28,680
doing something that's not just hey look
at me, Look how rich I am

806
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,920
and I have all this metal.
There's clearly a purpose that those mirrors are

807
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:39,319
supposed to beople filling. So as
I was researching this's what's the deal with

808
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:45,239
mirrors and the shininess and all that. Well, there's an archaeologist named Nicholas

809
01:18:45,319 --> 01:18:48,319
Saunders, and he wrote a whole
series of articles. Keep going off on

810
01:18:48,399 --> 01:18:54,039
other topic now, but he wrote
a whole series of articles looking at different

811
01:18:55,159 --> 01:19:04,880
shiny materials in the Americas and comparing
the archaeological finds and stuff with folklore and

812
01:19:05,159 --> 01:19:14,119
anthropological descriptions of cultures in the Amazon
and Mesoamerica and so on. And what

813
01:19:14,239 --> 01:19:17,439
he talks a lot about is that
there was all over both North and South

814
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:24,680
America there is this common theme of
shininess, which is to say, reflecting

815
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:32,520
like being associated with spiritual power and
spiritual qualities. And this was part of

816
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:39,119
why when the Spanish arrived in the
America, and of course they were all

817
01:19:39,199 --> 01:19:42,359
like obsessed with gold and stuff,
and they were, you know, in

818
01:19:42,399 --> 01:19:45,119
some of their writings they talk about
how shocked they are that they can get

819
01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:49,239
gold from these people in exchange for
just some glass beads or something, you

820
01:19:49,239 --> 01:19:54,119
know, broken bits and mirror and
like that from Europe. Well, what

821
01:19:54,199 --> 01:19:58,560
Saunders is saying is, yeah,
but those things had equal value from the

822
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:04,520
perspective of the people in the Americas
because they're all shiny. So this this

823
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:12,199
shininess factor connected not only human made
technologies like mirrors and things made out of

824
01:20:12,239 --> 01:20:18,039
metals, but also things like feathers, shell, pearls, and stones,

825
01:20:18,359 --> 01:20:30,359
water, and it forms this really
complicated web of symbolism and analogy. And

826
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:36,159
you know, this thing like obsidian
is connected to jaguar eyes because you know

827
01:20:36,199 --> 01:20:44,319
they both have this shiny property.
And I think that that reaction is not

828
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:50,800
just limited to the cultures of the
Americas. There's something about shininess. Humans

829
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:56,520
are like crows that way, right, There's something fact that sparkled and that

830
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:01,319
can actually be used in its own
right for inducing altered states of consciousness that

831
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:10,039
then allow for easier communication with spirits. There was a really interesting article that

832
01:21:10,079 --> 01:21:16,079
I read in grad school. It's
the author's names are Lindstrom and Christopherson two

833
01:21:16,079 --> 01:21:24,880
thousand one, I think, and
they were looking at what's called animal style

834
01:21:25,039 --> 01:21:30,319
art during the migration period in Scandinavia. So the migration period it's so called

835
01:21:30,399 --> 01:21:40,920
because it's when Germanic speaking people's started
moving around Anglo Saxones to England, well,

836
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:47,079
the Angles and Saxons to England and
people into what's now modern day Germany

837
01:21:47,359 --> 01:21:55,319
and so on, and so this
is like after the Roman Empire has basically

838
01:21:56,239 --> 01:22:01,720
fallen, and now there's this opportunity
for people to like reshuffles basically. And

839
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:05,239
so if you think about what Viking
art looks like, you know, with

840
01:22:05,319 --> 01:22:12,159
the intertwine, dragon type cercent looking
pieces, and also you know we see

841
01:22:12,199 --> 01:22:17,279
that like in Ireland for example,
and there it's actually getting there from Scandinavian.

842
01:22:18,159 --> 01:22:24,359
So in this article they make the
argument that this style of art is

843
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:31,760
actually a kind of a hypertext that
either is itself a tool for accessing altered

844
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:40,479
states of consciousness or it sort of
encodes experiences that happen in altered states of

845
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:45,520
consciousness. And they say that,
you know, when we see these things

846
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,159
now, we see them in brightly
lit museums or photographs and books and so

847
01:22:49,319 --> 01:22:55,079
on, But how you would be
seeing them in ancient times, well,

848
01:22:55,159 --> 01:22:58,520
during the daytime, it would be
in sunlight, but at night it would

849
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:04,399
be by firelight, and that moving
light that comes from firelight creates a sense

850
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:11,039
of movement in the art itself,
and if you kind of stare at it,

851
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,920
you can actually go into kind of
a light and not state. And

852
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:17,760
one of the things that they say
in the article that I found really interesting

853
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:23,479
is they said that, you know, we often talk about people who are

854
01:23:24,359 --> 01:23:28,840
more easily slipped into those kind of
states, as though they're more gullible or

855
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:34,039
more susceptible, but they said that
actually it correlates in psychological studies with people

856
01:23:34,079 --> 01:23:43,319
who have actually really resilient mental stability. And so a lot of during that

857
01:23:43,399 --> 01:23:48,239
particular period in Scandinavia and also in
Britain, a lot of the places where

858
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:53,119
like the main context where you would
see this art is on these big broaches

859
01:23:53,159 --> 01:24:00,199
that were found in burials mature women. So there's something about these women that

860
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,880
you know, yes, in a
sense they're wealthy because they have a chunk

861
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:10,880
of expensive material there, but perhaps
these are also people who who know how

862
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:15,720
to read this text so to speak. They know they can either use it

863
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:20,600
to enter that trance state perhaps,
or they can perhaps use it as almost

864
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:28,399
like a mnemonic to recall the lore
that was obtained originally in that trance state.

865
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:31,840
And so I mentioned all this because
all this has to do with light.

866
01:24:32,119 --> 01:24:40,800
It all has to do with our
relationship to light and and and and

867
01:24:41,039 --> 01:24:46,039
surface. And this is something that
humans have been deliberately playing with or ever.

868
01:24:47,119 --> 01:24:51,880
We love shiny stuff and we love
to make it more shiny. You

869
01:24:51,920 --> 01:25:00,039
know. My migrants school advisor wrote
this book called How Ancient Europeans Saw the

870
01:25:00,079 --> 01:25:03,000
World, and he has a section
where he talks about this lighting issue,

871
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:09,560
and he one of the things he
mentions is that the shapes of ceramic vessels,

872
01:25:09,279 --> 01:25:14,119
things, things that are flat or
square, tend to have a very

873
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:16,920
the side that catches the light is
just kind of a flat lighted area.

874
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,840
Besides that aren't catching the light are
just sort of flat shadowed areas. But

875
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:26,720
when you have curved surfaces, they
the light plays over them. And he

876
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:31,279
talks about how the shape of iron
age pottery in Europe it's very curvilinear.

877
01:25:31,359 --> 01:25:36,239
It's really you know, it's narrow
based, and then it swells way out

878
01:25:36,279 --> 01:25:40,600
and gets narrow again and it comes
out again. And he talks about how

879
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:45,119
he took like a little flashlight and
played with changing the direction and a light

880
01:25:45,239 --> 01:25:49,720
and stuff and watched how the light
played over it, and he said,

881
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:56,439
it's really mesmerized my own experience.
When I was doing my research. I

882
01:25:56,479 --> 01:26:01,359
went to the British Museum and I
was looking at the mirrors from Britain there

883
01:26:03,279 --> 01:26:06,720
and this will forever be one of
the greatest experiences of my life because they

884
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:11,199
have a room that is hidden behind
a door that looks like a bookcase,

885
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:15,359
and you get to go in the
back room and like look at these artifacts

886
01:26:15,359 --> 01:26:20,840
and they are amazing. One of
the mirrors from a cycled hoolecomb, where

887
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:27,199
the pandle attaches to the mirror plate, there's this basically little face. And

888
01:26:27,239 --> 01:26:30,760
there's been a little bit of debate
about is this a cat face? Is

889
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:35,520
this an owl face? Maybe perhaps
it's meant to kind of change between the

890
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:43,840
two. But the standard way to
take photographs for archaeological publications is to have

891
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,640
the light coming from above, and
I think it's to the left of the

892
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:55,359
artifact. And when I actually was
able to handle this mirror and change the

893
01:26:55,359 --> 01:27:00,840
direction of the light, that face
completely changes. I don't think there's any

894
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:09,600
doubt that it is intended to change, but changingness is part of the point

895
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:13,159
of it. So like I do
think it is a face of a Eurasian

896
01:27:13,199 --> 01:27:20,399
evil owl, but that's just my
personal opinion. So there there, and

897
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:24,479
you think of you know, Celtic
art too, and it's got these very

898
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:30,000
purvilinear kind of design that all of
this has like light and movement built into

899
01:27:30,039 --> 01:27:36,039
it. It's a technology for engaging
with that. And I so I think

900
01:27:36,039 --> 01:27:41,479
that they're even in Europe and in
Asia, not just in the America's and

901
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,680
probably African too. I just don't
know as much about it. There's this

902
01:27:47,039 --> 01:27:56,199
and Oceania and Australia. There is
this connection of light with the these luminous

903
01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:05,000
beings. I have to say that
we is living here in Appos County are

904
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:13,039
blessed with an abundance of a weird
light Khama, Yes we are. I

905
01:28:13,159 --> 01:28:15,239
never had any of the sorts that
I could see with the naked eye until

906
01:28:15,279 --> 01:28:19,520
living here, and then I started
to see the fireflies that are in colors

907
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:26,560
that fireflies don't come in m and
they don't necessarily blink on and off light

908
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:32,560
fireflies. Yeah, they're really pretty. Probably they are, no guessing,

909
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:38,279
but they're very pretty. Yeah.
Yeah. The native Americans always said no,

910
01:28:38,279 --> 01:28:43,640
no, no, no, don't
follow those. It's interesting when you

911
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:49,279
were talking about the use of light
and art animal based art. One of

912
01:28:49,319 --> 01:28:56,800
the things I read about fairly recently
was in the Neolithic caves in France that

913
01:28:56,960 --> 01:29:03,000
have the beautiful paintings. The cave
paintings, a lot of them are very

914
01:29:03,079 --> 01:29:10,159
far underground and in these places that
are fairly inaccessible, and in order to

915
01:29:10,199 --> 01:29:14,079
paint them, of course, there
had to be torches so that you could

916
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:17,760
see to paint them. There was
no way natural light was, you know,

917
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:27,119
getting back there. And so some
people have studied what it looks like

918
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:32,239
when you bring torches in, and
the play of light and the shape of

919
01:29:32,279 --> 01:29:38,279
the wall because of course it's not
perfectly flat, and the way that they

920
01:29:38,399 --> 01:29:46,079
shaded the animals makes it look like
they're moving, and so that it's almost

921
01:29:46,159 --> 01:29:51,119
like that's our first movie, you
know, that's the first time that a

922
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:58,319
movie was made. But it's also
of course I start thinking, I'm like

923
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:08,920
fire in underground oxygen and breathing,
and all I could think of was,

924
01:30:09,079 --> 01:30:14,399
you know, I wonder if anyone
went into an altered state of consciousness from

925
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:18,800
slight hypoxia, because and then you
know by the end of the paper they

926
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,439
got to that. I'm like,
okay, so I wasn't. I wasn't

927
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:27,279
the super smart one who figured it
out. But it's one of those things

928
01:30:28,239 --> 01:30:36,960
that could be some sort of initiatory
experience. There underground, water will flash

929
01:30:38,039 --> 01:30:44,680
up with light, and that had
to have been an amazing thing, and

930
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:55,359
also bioluminescent fungus and in cave systems, and that again had to have been

931
01:30:55,479 --> 01:31:00,199
something that was that was amazing,
and bits of pyrite in the sandstone are

932
01:31:00,239 --> 01:31:05,520
in limestone sending the sparkle had to
have been an interesting thing. And then

933
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:14,239
you know the little firefly guys that
aren't really fireflies. I mean, who's

934
01:31:14,319 --> 01:31:16,479
the first one who followed them?
And everybody else was like, well,

935
01:31:17,199 --> 01:31:21,479
we're not going to do that again, so that it becomes this tradition.

936
01:31:23,079 --> 01:31:30,000
Well Jim followed him and look what
happened. Hell never saw him again,

937
01:31:30,319 --> 01:31:34,359
and so now we're not going to
do that. And of course the experience

938
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:43,079
of entering into a cave is also
part of these shamanic lower world underworld journeys

939
01:31:43,079 --> 01:31:50,239
that people have, and there's also
acoustics that are weird in underground. One

940
01:31:50,279 --> 01:31:55,760
of the archaeological digs that I went
on as an undergraduate is at the site

941
01:31:55,760 --> 01:32:00,279
of Chavine and Peru, and so
this is a a preting of site and

942
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:05,800
it's in the Andes, and it's
very interesting because there's in their artistic styles,

943
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:12,000
there's a mix of elements that are
from the Amazon, like jaguars and

944
01:32:12,039 --> 01:32:17,600
things like that, and then from
the other side of the Andes, which

945
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:24,279
is you know, mostly desert and
coasts, right, and they were a

946
01:32:24,279 --> 01:32:27,039
big, you know, hub for
trade, and it seems like people would

947
01:32:27,079 --> 01:32:29,880
come from all over the place to
this site, which is I mean it's

948
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:32,600
twelve thousand feet up in the mounts. It's up there. It's not easy

949
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:40,640
to access. Even when I went
there and they created these they're they're not

950
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:45,239
technically underground because what they did with
they've built mounds up and then they built

951
01:32:45,319 --> 01:32:50,720
passageways into the mounds. I believe
there are some passageways that actually do go

952
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:58,840
underground, but mostly they're within these
mounds. And man that the it really

953
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,760
plays tricks with your head is the
way that founds bounce around in there.

954
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:10,359
And they were very sophisticated with putting
in little fence for air and light to

955
01:33:10,399 --> 01:33:15,680
get in and so there's one chamber, there's a passageway that goes to a

956
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:17,920
chamber, and that has the thing
in it called the Lanson, which is

957
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:26,239
basically like a slab of rock that
is kind of like a narrow triangle in

958
01:33:26,319 --> 01:33:30,319
shape, but it's carved all over
with this being that's gotten thangs and like

959
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:35,079
serpent hair, and there's a lot
of their imagery involves, you know,

960
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:43,600
like intermediate hybrid human snake, human
jaguar, human, mountain lion kind of

961
01:33:44,399 --> 01:33:49,359
imagery. And man, if you
saw that fitting by torchlight, that would

962
01:33:49,399 --> 01:33:54,720
scare the bejeebers out of you,
or it's not scary, depending on how

963
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:59,600
you were prepared, it would be
like awe aspiring, because even seeing it

964
01:34:00,079 --> 01:34:09,119
with a little bit of electric light
was very awe inspiring. And I know

965
01:34:09,279 --> 01:34:15,039
that the professor that I was working
with then as an under at the has

966
01:34:15,279 --> 01:34:20,680
has written a lot about sort of
the acoustical features of these passages and how

967
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:31,239
that could potentially be used in basically
giving people these initiatory experiences. And we

968
01:34:31,359 --> 01:34:36,760
do have imagery and that fight where
people are actually probably not people, maybe

969
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:43,720
these spirits or gods or something or
carryings and pedro pases, so that's pollucinogenic.

970
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:49,359
And so there's there's some other images
that seem to have mucus running out

971
01:34:49,359 --> 01:34:55,840
of their nose, which is there
are Amazonian in the agians that you take

972
01:34:55,840 --> 01:35:00,760
as a snuff and they cause you
to just like produce tons of others.

973
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:05,520
Basically it's pretty gross looking. But
so it seems like they might have been

974
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:10,159
using in theagens that we're both you
know, from the from the Amazon,

975
01:35:10,319 --> 01:35:15,960
from the rainforest as well as from
the desert side. And so you know

976
01:35:16,039 --> 01:35:20,039
that again, if you're in a
dark passageway and there's or or there's flickering

977
01:35:20,119 --> 01:35:26,359
light and there's crazy sounds of water
sounds and everything, that's pretty trippy.

978
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:35,039
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely
a change of consciousness. Yeah. Well

979
01:35:35,119 --> 01:35:42,920
New Grange is like that, the
passage and New Grange. That chamber has

980
01:35:43,039 --> 01:35:49,239
weird acoustics that will bounce your voice
around, so if you chant in there,

981
01:35:49,359 --> 01:35:56,560
it starts to sound like you have
extra voices with you. And of

982
01:35:56,560 --> 01:36:02,840
course it has the opening that light
comes in and and you know, illuminates

983
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:09,439
the whole place once a year.
So yeah, I've never been inside New

984
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:14,479
Brange, but that's that's a bucket
list thing for sure. Yeah, yeah,

985
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:20,760
for for reels, and then there's
up lost the thought it went away

986
01:36:21,079 --> 01:36:28,800
went flying away. Oh yeah,
okay, So in theogens, one of

987
01:36:28,840 --> 01:36:38,159
the things that I've always experienced with
in theogens is light light effects, and

988
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:42,960
not always everybody else does, but
it's one of the things that I do

989
01:36:43,079 --> 01:36:46,439
notice, and I will see the
flashes of light, you know. The

990
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:51,399
very first time, I was like, it's a corneal like abi abrasion.

991
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:56,720
It's just look, I don't know. And then I was like, girl,

992
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:03,760
no, you're fine. You can't
always get rid of that twentieth century

993
01:37:03,800 --> 01:37:08,880
logic that's you know, stuck in
there, and so you start getting freaked

994
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:13,159
out. But yeah, I always
saw light. I've heard that a lot

995
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:17,920
from people talking about light and color, and of course color is a property

996
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:24,560
of light. Really, so yeah, oh yeah. I Actually I have

997
01:37:25,239 --> 01:37:32,880
had experiences with a couple of in
theagens, but they were not They're not

998
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:41,640
the standard ones that you think of, right, and only one of them

999
01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:47,640
was intentional SOPs. Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's not that I it's

1000
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:51,159
not so much that I chose not
to it just I have not had an

1001
01:37:51,199 --> 01:38:00,880
opportunity too. I don't view those
things as purely recreational. M yeah,

1002
01:38:01,239 --> 01:38:04,520
yeah, and so, but the
context in which I would have had the

1003
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:11,880
opportunity would have been one where it
was not h There wasn't be no opportunity

1004
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:15,479
to to have the I mean in
the agen right it's about it literally means

1005
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:20,920
like it. It brings the divine
right, and that would not have been

1006
01:38:21,399 --> 01:38:29,840
happened, so except except with the
one that I did do intentionally, but

1007
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:40,560
that wasn't That one wasn't a didn't
produce visual effect. So yeah, yeah,

1008
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,479
but I have heard this, yeah, you know from people that they

1009
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:47,720
you know, might is part of
the especially with monstros I've heard of that.

1010
01:38:49,159 --> 01:38:54,680
M hm yeah, flashes of light
happen with with this, although most

1011
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:59,159
of the time most of what I've
ever seen has been without that. So

1012
01:38:59,359 --> 01:39:04,159
yeah, you know, yeah you
do. That's just kind of how I

1013
01:39:04,239 --> 01:39:09,840
don't need in the ages to see
this stuff. They kind of make it

1014
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:18,119
easier easier. Yeah, they're they're
they're regardless, So mm hmm, that's

1015
01:39:18,239 --> 01:39:27,199
definitely true. Do you have anything
else you want to dig into in this

1016
01:39:27,359 --> 01:39:30,520
regard? So, I mean,
as you can tell him. Obviously,

1017
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:36,880
I could go on pretty much endlessly
about anthological stuff and shaman stuff. I

1018
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:46,000
can't think of a specific thing that
we have like left unaddressed. Yeah that's

1019
01:39:46,039 --> 01:39:53,119
cool. Well you can always come
back. I will definitely have you back.

1020
01:39:53,239 --> 01:39:57,239
There's a lot of stuff that we
got into that I'm like, oh,

1021
01:39:57,279 --> 01:39:59,800
we could go for another you know, hour or two on that.

1022
01:40:00,319 --> 01:40:04,720
So yeah, I took notes and
so I would love to have you back.

1023
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:08,279
Well, I would love to be
back. I love these conversations.

1024
01:40:10,159 --> 01:40:15,880
I'm actually I I liked I write
a lot, and I'm not saying I

1025
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:18,840
write well. In fact, I
don't. I write well. All of

1026
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:23,439
my practice, all of my writing
has been academic, and so I can

1027
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:30,840
write that style, but it's not
exactly the most readable. And I have

1028
01:40:30,239 --> 01:40:39,520
not yet found a good voice that's
sort of like not super dry and boring,

1029
01:40:40,159 --> 01:40:44,760
but yet you know, scholarly.
Some people are still good at that,

1030
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:50,359
and I I really struggle with that. But I'm planning on I'm probably

1031
01:40:50,399 --> 01:40:57,399
it'll probably be a sub stack,
not paywall, but just to write about

1032
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:01,479
some of this stuff, so if
anybody's interested in that, I don't have

1033
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:04,800
it up yet. I'm also working
on my website, but I am crippled

1034
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:11,079
by perfectionism. And so it's not
ready yet, but I can give people

1035
01:41:11,119 --> 01:41:15,760
my email address if that's okay,
if anybody's just interested in this or if

1036
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:25,880
they want to be advised when that
stuff happens. So my email is Forrest

1037
01:41:26,159 --> 01:41:30,359
Weird work at Google or gmail dot
com. Sorry, so it's f O

1038
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:41,600
r E F d w y R
d w r K Forrest work and just

1039
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:45,439
shoot me an email. I'm happy, clearly uppy to talk about this stuff,

1040
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,720
and I'll let anybody know if I
actually generate any public writing on it.

1041
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:58,000
I'm also going to be teaching a
workshop on how to do shamanic journeying.

1042
01:41:59,119 --> 01:42:04,920
Uh. It's should be November fourth, and that will be somewhere in

1043
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:09,520
the Athens area. But it's a
possibility that it could be hybrid as well

1044
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:14,159
if people zoom in. But we
it's limited to eight students, so it's

1045
01:42:14,239 --> 01:42:18,640
kind of like, let me know
if you're interested. Because all right,

1046
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:21,279
well, thank you, Oh you're
so welcome, thank you for having me

1047
01:42:21,319 --> 01:42:25,800
back. Well that's all for this
week's episode of the Six Degrees of John

1048
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:30,520
Keel podcast. If you have any
questions or thoughts about the podcast, or

1049
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:33,720
would like to come and talk about
your experiences of the Paranormal. You can

1050
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:41,239
contact us at six d j K
six seven at gmail dot com. We

1051
01:42:41,439 --> 01:42:45,760
promised to even answer you and we
are always happy to hear from you.

1052
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:46,159
Thank you,