1 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,920 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emilijasanski, culture 2 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:26,079 editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at 3 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,960 radio at the Federalist dot com. We do read those emails. Follow us 4 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,719 on Twitter at fdr LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever your download your podcasts 5 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:39,520 into the premium version of our website as well. Today we're joined by pastor 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,359 Joel Webbin. He is a pastor in the in Central Texas Georgetown, Texas, 7 00:00:44,359 --> 00:00:48,799 and also he heads up Right Response Ministries. He's the author of the 8 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,479 new book, really really fascinating title Fight by Flight While Leaving Godless Places is 9 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:59,399 Loving Godless Places. Joel, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having 10 00:00:59,439 --> 00:01:03,000 me, Emily, I'm honored to be here. I'm talking to you deep 11 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,480 in the heart of a godless place in a very very blue city that would 12 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:12,799 be Washington, DC. And I think there's a lot of this that's been 13 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,079 on my mind lately. And we talk about the devolution of America cities a 14 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,560 lot here on this podcast. But I want to ask you, Joel, 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,840 why this topic struck you with something that you needed a book length explanation from 16 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:33,040 your vantage point as a pastor. Yeah, well for myself personally, I 17 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:41,599 especially needed a book length explanation because I'm probably I don't know, I'm maybe 18 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:48,799 best known both in my local ministry as a pastor and then also you know 19 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:56,640 in the digital universe with right response ministries and podcasting and video as someone who 20 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:02,359 holds to post millennial eschatology. So scatology just doctrine of the end times, 21 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:08,680 and postmillennial means that I believe that Christ is going to return, not with 22 00:02:08,719 --> 00:02:15,199 a secret rapture and not before establishing a millennial kingdom here on earth, but 23 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:21,120 post after. The Christ is going to return after the kingdom. So in 24 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:28,520 a nutshell, the postmillennial guy is going to essentially assert that Christ is ruling 25 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,520 and reigning now and here, now and here, So in a spiritual sense, 26 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:38,039 Christ is king presently. We're not just waiting for his kingdom, but 27 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,879 he's presently ruling, and he's also ruling here, not just in the seventeenth 28 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,400 dimension, but he's actually ruling in the created cosmos, this world, which 29 00:02:49,439 --> 00:02:53,560 he loves, and he is ruling progressively. His reign and rule, the 30 00:02:53,639 --> 00:03:00,479 crown rights of King Jesus are being pressed forward progressively and grab actually throughout real 31 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:05,439 human history. So a lot of people when they think of eschatology the end 32 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:09,800 times, they think that Christ rule and reign his millennial kingdom will be sudden 33 00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:16,400 and cataclysmic, sudden and cataclysmic, whereas the postmillennial believes that it will be 34 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,680 a gradual, progressive increase of Christian principles, virtues, first and foremost the 35 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:30,240 Gospel of the Kingdom of God, that the Great Commission will actually be successful, 36 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,639 going and making disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of 37 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,319 the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them it's 38 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:44,639 not just evangelism, but in that discipleship, teaching the nations to obey all 39 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:46,479 of Christ's commands. That's a part of the Great Commission. And so the 40 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:52,759 postmillennial believes that this will be not overnight, It's not going to be cataclysmic 41 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:58,479 and sudden, but gradual, slow, progressive over time, and that you 42 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,479 know, it's possible that five thousand years from now, Christ may terry and 43 00:04:03,039 --> 00:04:08,000 Christians would look back and say that you and I were actually still a part 44 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,919 of the early Church. And so all that being said, you know, 45 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,000 you're picking up on the mustard seed, it slowly grows into a tree you're 46 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:18,480 picking up in Daniel chapter two, the stone cut by no human hands, 47 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:24,319 that crushes the kingdoms of this world and slowly grows into a mountain that fills 48 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:28,800 the whole earth. You're picking up on the leaven that not in a moment, 49 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,279 but gradually and progressively, in a process, works through the whole lump 50 00:04:32,319 --> 00:04:35,199 of dope. So all that means said, to answer your question, I 51 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:42,839 have a victorious and hopeful eschatology. I have a winning eschatology. I don't 52 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,600 you could say it like this. I don't believe that we lose down here. 53 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,000 I believe that we win, maybe not in my generation, not a 54 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:56,240 complete victory overnight, but progressively and gradually by the grace of God through the 55 00:04:56,319 --> 00:05:02,199 power of the Gospel, not just changing private spiritual hearts, but actually changing 56 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:08,439 hearts in such a way that that has real tangible implications for all of society. 57 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,959 I believe that that is going to happen throughout real human history. We're 58 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,120 going to win. So why the heck did I surrender and leave California. 59 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,639 That's that's why I felt like I needed So if that's your message, this 60 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:29,279 post millennial Victoria's hopeful eschatology. And then optically it appears as though you've just 61 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:34,360 retreated from a place where, you know where that needs Christ desperately in namely 62 00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:42,319 California. Then you've got some explaining to do. And the subtitle. Part 63 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,519 of what I find so intriguing about the book is just the argument in the 64 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,639 subtitle that loving the loving those godless places is leaving those godless places? Right? 65 00:05:51,879 --> 00:05:56,360 Can you flesh that argument out of it? Yeah, So a lot 66 00:05:56,399 --> 00:06:00,759 of my thinking first, you know, to kind of set the framework. 67 00:06:01,079 --> 00:06:06,759 Part of my thinking was the narrative that we find in the Old Testament scripture 68 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,759 about King's Saul and the spirit of God was with him. He was mighty, 69 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,360 he performed incredible exploits, and when he was first anointed as the first 70 00:06:19,439 --> 00:06:24,639 king in Israel, the scripture says he was small in his own eyes, 71 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,199 but slowly but surely, he got a big head. He became proud and 72 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,480 arrogant, and eventually he started thinking that he could start, you know, 73 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:41,040 calling audibles, that he could start you know, making his own decisions and 74 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,399 you know, and not really following God's commandments. And so there's one instance 75 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:54,560 where Saul determines that he's not going to wait for Samuel to show up, 76 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,439 that he's not going to wait in order to perform the proper procedures for offering 77 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,240 a sacrifice to the Lord that he's going to He's going to overstep his jurisdiction. 78 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,680 Right, it's really relevant when you think of the last three years and 79 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:14,399 the branch Covidians, and you know, what is this in the sovereign sphere 80 00:07:14,439 --> 00:07:17,199 of the church, the home, or the state. Right, we want 81 00:07:17,199 --> 00:07:20,839 to render on to Caesar what is Caesar's? But here's the implicit question, 82 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,360 who determines what belongs to Caesar? Sure, I'll give to Caesar what is 83 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Caesar's, so long as God decides what is Caesar's, and that Caesar doesn't 84 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,800 himself decide what belongs to Caesar, because when Caesar decides, he decides that 85 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:40,800 everything belongs to Caesar. So you have Saul overstepping his jurisdiction. He's performing 86 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:46,199 priestly duties instead of remaining in his civil duties as a civil ruler. And 87 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:50,920 King Samuel shows up and says, what are you doing? And Saul, 88 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,720 this is his defense. He says, I have and he uses this word 89 00:07:55,839 --> 00:08:00,319 mission that I hear a lot of Christians using nowadays. He says, I 90 00:08:00,399 --> 00:08:05,079 have gone on the mission that the Lord is signed to me. I've completely 91 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:09,639 I've done everything. I've followed to the letter what God has said in his 92 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,319 commandments. I devoted everything to destruction, just like God said. And Saul 93 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:16,759 said, well, then, what's what's that? That that sound of bleeding 94 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,800 sheep? I can you destroyed everything? But I can. I can see 95 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,920 them, I can hear them. They're right there. Oh oh, that 96 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,600 I saved as a sacrifice to the Lord. Well who told you you could 97 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:31,240 you could perform priestly duties and make sacrifices. Oh well, well, it 98 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,240 actually was the people, right, of course it was the people. Wasn't 99 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,720 me, But the people made me do it. Um. And and then 100 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:45,919 we have this profound line from Samuel where he says, the Lord desires obedience, 101 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,200 not sacrifice. Now cross reference, you know, pulling these things together. 102 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:54,879 Now, Saul says mission, I went on the mission, and then 103 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:58,919 Samuel kind of skips that word, and I think it's it's synonymous. He's 104 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,159 is interchanging. Mission was sacrifice? You know, the Lord desires obedience, 105 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:11,639 not sacrifice. I moved to California, I left Texas, where I was 106 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,639 born and raised, moved to California as a twenty three year old man to 107 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:22,279 go on a mission to sacrifice, if you will, for the sake of 108 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:26,519 evangelism, for the sake of I wanted to be a missionary to California. 109 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:33,279 I wanted I thought implicitly, right, I was a pre millennial, believing 110 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:37,799 that Jesus is going to come back on you know, probably next Thursday, 111 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,879 and that everything is destined to get worse and worse until he does. You 112 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:45,080 know, I was pre millennial before I was even Christian. That's that's just 113 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,440 what it is to grow up in dispensational, pre millennial America. That's been 114 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,399 the last one hundred and fifty years. People can't even verbalize it, but 115 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,480 but that is that's the air we breathe. It traces back to Darby and 116 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:01,200 Scofield, the Left Behind series. People implicitly think that Jesus is going to 117 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,279 come back very soon, it's going to be sudden, he's going to rapture 118 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:11,279 the church, and that everything is destined by God himself to progressively get worse 119 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:16,840 until Jesus returns. And so with that mindset, I thought, well, 120 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:20,519 if Jesus is coming back soon. If nothing's going to get better, then 121 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,200 I'm not going to have a multigenerational plan. I'm not thinking about my great 122 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:33,240 grandchildren. I'm not thinking about building establishing. I'm just thinking about snatching souls 123 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,720 from the fire, because at the end of the day, that's all that 124 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:41,039 really matters. If we're on a sinking ship, I'm not going to rearrange 125 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,840 the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. That doesn't make a lot of 126 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,720 sense. Let's just get as many people on the lifeboats as we possibly can. 127 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,720 And if Jesus is coming back soon, and if things are destined to 128 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:56,440 get worse and worse until Christ does come back, and all we can really 129 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,639 do is snatch souls from the fire, then let's go in where the fire 130 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,480 is the hottest. Now, if I'm honest, I wasn't really really being 131 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,000 consistent, because if I was, I would have gone to China or North 132 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,080 Korea. Why start with California? You know, I mean, why not 133 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,759 go to the countries that California so desperately, you know, aspires to become 134 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:20,120 Why not go to Venezuela, Why not go to you know, so I 135 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:22,720 you know, I settled for California, kind of selling out there, but 136 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,600 I went as a missionary, right the soul mentality, King Saul, I've 137 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,480 gone on the mission. But then as I had, you know, kids, 138 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,879 as I started thinking about my children, and started thinking about grandchildren, 139 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:39,799 and started thinking, you know, as my eschatology began to shift, and 140 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,879 I became more post millennial and thinking, what if Jesus doesn't come back for 141 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:50,039 another five thousand years. Hasn't every generation for the last two thousand years of 142 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,159 church history believe that Jesus was going to come back in their lifetime and every 143 00:11:54,159 --> 00:11:58,440 single one of them was wrong. Why why do we insist that this time 144 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,840 we're going to get it right? This is coming back next Thursday. I 145 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:07,200 started having these conversations and wrestling with certain biblical texts, and I started realizing 146 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:15,080 the law desires obedience, not sacrifice. I'm sacrificing my children, their well 147 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,279 being, their protection, all these like Financially, just financially speaking, in 148 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,200 practical terms, I could not live as a pastor in San Diego, California, 149 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,799 where we were stationed, without my wife helping to supplement my income. 150 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:33,759 So she was not going to be able to stay home full time, as 151 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:37,600 she desired to be a keeper at home according to Titus chapter two, and 152 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,480 to be a mother full time with our children, our young children. It's 153 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:46,000 one thing when the children are older in school. Also, if we did 154 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:48,399 put them in school, we were not going to be able to afford to 155 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,879 put them in a private Christian school. So I was going to have to 156 00:12:52,919 --> 00:12:56,639 send them to a state I'm going to have to send them to Caesar public 157 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,240 school. Right Rode Bacham has famously said, you know, you can't send 158 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,799 your kids disease there and be surprised when they come back as Romans. So 159 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:07,759 I was going to have to utilize public school. I was going to have 160 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,200 to utilize my wife to supplement my income. My parents are starting to get 161 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,200 older and age, and I was thinking about caring for them in practical and 162 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 even financial ways. How was I going to do that when I can barely 163 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,919 afford to live, all right, And then there's also the political climate. 164 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,000 There's also wanting to be generous to the church and giving back at least ten 165 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,360 percent of my income, wanting to set an example of generosity towards the House 166 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,360 of God, as especially as a pastor. So all these things that I'm 167 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,240 thinking about these are clear commandments. So when I say, you know, 168 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,879 by using Saul and Samuel that discourse from the Old Testament, the lad desires 169 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,279 obedience, not sacrifice, I was thinking, well, what are the things 170 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:50,759 that are clear? Right? I don't have a verse in the Bible that 171 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,639 says Joel Webbing thou shalt move to California and be a missionary. But I 172 00:13:54,679 --> 00:14:01,039 do have verses in the Bible that explicitly talk about how fathers should not exasperate 173 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:07,679 their children, but rather should train them up in the fear and ammunition of 174 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:13,759 the Lord. That fathers have a moral obligation under God for the education, 175 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,679 the training, the paideia, the Christian curriculum, and training of their children. 176 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:26,159 Can I therefore subject my own children to fifteen thousand hours of state indoctrination 177 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:33,200 in the state of California in the year twenty twenty three? Can I do 178 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,960 that with a clear conscience? Can I force my wife to have to take 179 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,799 a job to supplement our income and not get to be the full time mother 180 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:45,200 she desires to be. Can I send my parents, as they get older, 181 00:14:45,279 --> 00:14:48,919 off to the glue factory proverbially, rather than being able to afford to 182 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,080 bring them into our home, to see them die well, and to care 183 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:58,559 for them in their old age, to give some return to my parents who 184 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,360 once cared for me. First Timothy, chapter five says, which is good 185 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,679 and pleasing to the Lord. I just started thinking, practically, here are 186 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,919 some of the practical commandments that God gives. There's no commandment that says, 187 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,039 thou shalt go to North Korea, thou shalt do this. Now, there's 188 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:18,279 certainly a biblical criteria, a general framework for missionaries, but there's no explicit 189 00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:24,279 command to me personally that I have to do this. And there are commands 190 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,399 that I must as a father and a husband and a son and a brother, 191 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:33,120 I must do some very practical things in obedience to Christ. And the 192 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:39,960 mission pastor in California was starting to compromise the clear obedience husband, father, 193 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:48,960 son, and so I determined that the Lord desires obedience, not sacrifice. 194 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,840 So all that being said, that clued me in, you know what I 195 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,200 need to make a change. The problem was that I still had no theological 196 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:03,440 category at that time to be able to justify moving back to Texas, where 197 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,519 my parents were and my wife's parents were. I had no theological category for 198 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,960 that decision, except for surrender. It felt like losing. It felt like 199 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,000 quitting. It felt like giving up. Then I began to think about the 200 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,360 prodigal son. Last thing I'll say, and I'll throw it right back to 201 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:26,799 you, Emily. But I thought about the prodigal son. He lavishly spends 202 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:32,639 all of his inheritance that he received from his father, and now he's off 203 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:37,519 in a far distant land at a time where where all the land becomes ravaged 204 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:44,200 by famine. And so he hires himself out for a low level job feeding 205 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,120 pigs. And he's so desperate, so at the end of his rope that 206 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:55,440 he's looking at the pods used to feed pigs and thinking that looks good. 207 00:16:56,399 --> 00:17:00,360 So he's in a desperate situation. Now. Then the Bible's says it says, 208 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:06,720 no one gave him anything. So it says, here's the dire straits 209 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,960 that he's in. It paints the picture of this desperate situation. Then the 210 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,920 scripture says, in this parable, Jesus says, and no one gave him 211 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,119 anything. Now, the very next words shouldn't surprise us. But the very 212 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,200 next words are, and he came to his senses, no one gave him 213 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,319 anything, and he wakes up, He comes to his senses. He thinks 214 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:32,599 I should go back home, I should repent to my father. The servants 215 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:36,279 in my father's house have it better than I do now. I think one 216 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:40,000 of the worst things that could have happened in that moment for the prodigal son 217 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:47,799 is if a member of his father's house with a misguided sense of compassion had 218 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,559 gone off to find this young man and give him a handout. I don't 219 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:57,359 think he would have come to his senses if somebody gave him a handout. 220 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,759 He needed to be at the end of his rope. He needed to lie 221 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:06,640 down in the bed that he had made for himself by his rebellious decisions. 222 00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:11,559 I'm tired of watching Gavin Newsom propped up by the salt of the earth with 223 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:18,480 their tax dollars. Ten million professing Christians in the state of California forty two 224 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,200 million total population, six million of them in twenty twenty voted for Trump. 225 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,920 Was it close? Nope, twelve million for Biden. How much did Trump 226 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:33,480 ultimately lose by at the electoral college level if four particular swing states had gone 227 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,359 for Trump rather than for Biden. Namely Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and 228 00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:42,440 one other that I'm forgetting in the moment. Collectively, the popular vote in 229 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:49,279 those four states was less than seventy six thousand collectively. That ultimately made Biden 230 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,319 win those four states. So six million people, myself included because I was 231 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,440 there in California at the time, six million people flushed their vote for Trump 232 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:04,039 down the toilet. If only one point three percent of those six million, 233 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,960 many of them professing Christians in California, had decided, you know what, 234 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,839 the weather's nice, but it jest isn't worth it, and they moved to 235 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,799 a place that has life but is still under attack. They left one battle 236 00:19:21,079 --> 00:19:25,279 not to retreat to perfect safety, but rather that it's not a retreat, 237 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:29,079 it's merely advancing to the rear, if you will. If they had run 238 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,160 to a battle that was both winnable and significant and reinforce the saints there, 239 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:40,799 the proverbial Battle of Bunker's Hill and cast their vote there, while thirteen service 240 00:19:40,839 --> 00:19:45,119 members in Afghanistan might not have died, certain vacts mandates may not have taken 241 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:51,839 place the whole world. Ideas have consequences, so do elections, and that's 242 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,680 just the political application, but when you also actor in everything I talked about 243 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,119 obligation, more obligation to our parents, to our wives, to our children, 244 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,079 all these different things. I started thinking, Wait a second, what 245 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,079 if Jesus doesn't come back in the next fifteen minutes. What if what if 246 00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:11,319 I don't need a five year plan but a five hundred year plan. What 247 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,119 if I should be thinking about my great grandchildren? What if I should be 248 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:22,759 building And is there actually a fertile soil where I'm currently located to build well, 249 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,839 to establish something that's going to have duration, that's going to have staying 250 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,319 power, and all these things. I started thinking, Man, I don't 251 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,599 know if I want to be here. And I keep telling myself I'm on 252 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,319 mission, that I'm fighting the good fight. But I think a lot of 253 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,039 Christians, if they were honest, at the end of the day, their 254 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:51,680 mere presence in these godless places is funding more than its fighting. I have 255 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,759 you know a decent amount of friends who have left places like New York and 256 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:04,680 Washington, DC and gone on to places like Nashville or Dallas or all over 257 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:10,559 Florida because that's the really fun thing to do now. But um, I 258 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:18,119 also have you've seen other countries react to the United States kind of exporting its 259 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:25,920 new culturally progressive values to their countries and to their cultures. And you know, 260 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:32,720 I think this raises a really a really important question about what at what 261 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,119 point a city, a state, a country goes over the edge and is 262 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,799 rome and is you know, a place that it should be, you know, 263 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,160 loved by being left to go along with the title of your book, 264 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,759 So how do you suggest, you know, some people might say they have 265 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:55,519 to get out of the United States, you know, what is the threshold 266 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,799 for becoming a place that is essentially too far gone? Right? Well, 267 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,559 okay, a couple of things. One, I'm rooting for Elon. Maybe 268 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:10,559 we could go live on the Moon or Mars until that becomes a viable option. 269 00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:15,319 You got to live somewhere on this planet. And so at the end 270 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,279 of the day, just like elections, just like so much of what we 271 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,240 do, it's you know, it's a choice between the lesser of two evils. 272 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,839 And so I recognize that in the state of taxes, I'm not paying 273 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:32,440 a state tax, but I am paying property taxes, and those property taxes 274 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,279 are about two and a half times the amount that I would pay in California. 275 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:41,799 Now. Granted, in terms of real estate prices, it may you 276 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:45,000 know, end up being a wash because you know, in San Diego, 277 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:48,000 California, you might pay two and a half times more for your house. 278 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,200 So that one percent property tax plus then the state taxes, you know, 279 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,279 puts you well over the edge. But the point is that that you know, 280 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,240 you got to live somewhere, and you're going to pay some kind of 281 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,720 tax, and you know in doing so, you're going to be funding something 282 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,440 that's that's probably not really aligned to a scripture, that's not aligned with your 283 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:12,440 virtues, with your values which you know in your heart of hearts to be 284 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:18,359 true and to be honoring and pleasing to the Lord. So we're, you 285 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,720 know, we're choosing between you know, one evil and another. What is 286 00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:26,240 the lesser of two evils? Now, in terms of the specific criteria to 287 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,799 try to answer your question of like, when has a place gone too far? 288 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,079 When is it over the edge? When when do you make that decision 289 00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:36,319 it's time to pull the plug, it's time to pack up and leave. 290 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,559 Well, I think that that you know, it's a sliding scale. I 291 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:44,279 think that certainly there's room for individual conscience. I think you know even you 292 00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:47,720 know, my whole theory in the book you know I talk about my main 293 00:23:47,799 --> 00:23:52,000 thesis includes exceptions. There are exceptions to the rule. There are people who 294 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:55,680 are in the military, or there are people who are in California and you 295 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,720 know their parents are you know, within their last few years of life and 296 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:06,200 fused to move, or are just physically incapable of being relocated at that time. 297 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,359 That there are a host of reasons why you can make a biblical argument 298 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,000 that you might be an exception that you need to remain there, and there 299 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:19,160 are such a thing. One great example of an exception is missionaries. There 300 00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:25,640 is such a thing as true missionaries, people who are really called and equipped 301 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:32,279 by God to live in difficult, godless progressive places as a light in a 302 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,519 dark environment. I just don't think in the case of California with forty two 303 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,799 million people total and ten million professing Christians, I think some of them are 304 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:47,720 missionaries. I don't think ten million of them are missionaries. I just don't 305 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:49,720 think that's true. I think that if we looked at the average of these 306 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,920 ten million individuals who are professing to be followers of Jesus, and then we 307 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,279 looked at what does your life of being a alleged missionary to California really look 308 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,440 like. And we weighed how much in a given calendar year they're fighting, 309 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,599 and then compared that in a given calendar year with how much they're funding. 310 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:15,880 I think the funding would outweigh the fighting, right, So that's the argument 311 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,640 that I'm making. There are exceptions, and in terms again of deciding, 312 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,599 Okay, when is it time to leave, I think some of that is 313 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,599 subjective. Some of that depends on your situation. Right. For me, 314 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,759 I wasn't leaving family behind. I actually left family behind when I initially made 315 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:37,640 the decision as a twenty three year old man to leave Texas and go to 316 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,759 California in the first place. So I was actually returning home. I was 317 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:47,839 returning to my upbringing, returning to my parents and extended family members, and 318 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,039 in my case, my wife's extended family as well. So I think it 319 00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:56,000 depends on what kind of job do you have, how much money do you 320 00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:00,440 make, what's your tax situation, how much do you actually have to pay 321 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,480 in taxes? Are you how much of a say do you actually have. 322 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,079 Are you in the military. Are you stationed in California against your will? 323 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:14,119 Right? But temporarily and only for four years. Do you have aging parents 324 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,880 in California that you need to be present with who are unwilling or unable to 325 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:25,000 relocate. So there's a lot of subjective personal criteria that needs to be carefully 326 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:30,000 weighed. What I'm trying to present is a general not a universal rule one 327 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:36,960 size fits all, but a general thesis for Christians and Conservatives, but especially 328 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:44,000 professing Christians, those who profess to follow Jesus to consider, am I am 329 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:52,640 I compromising in practical obedience for the sake of my alleged mission? And that 330 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,960 could happen just about anywhere. You could do that in just about any context. 331 00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:02,640 But I think we're being naive if we don't acknowledge that some places are 332 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,640 more godless than others. So all the way back to your question, Yeah, 333 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,559 you got to live somewhere until Elon figures it out, you know, 334 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:14,000 and even Elon there's problems with that. I'm not really excited about microchips in 335 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:15,799 my brain, you know, and some of the relations with China, you 336 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:18,799 know, you know, creep me out. But all that being said, 337 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,759 you know, unless we figure out a way to go to the moon and 338 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:26,440 start, you know, the Christian colony, you know, on Mars or 339 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,559 whatever it might be. Um, you know that which is that That's what 340 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,960 America was. You know, it was fleeing persecution. It was fleeing totalitarianism 341 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,559 to go and to find a place of freedom of worship and worship not not 342 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,839 polytheism. That was not in the founders minds. It wasn't let's establish a 343 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,920 country where we can worship you know, Jesus and Buddha. No, it 344 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,240 was it was freedom of a religion. But you can look at founding documents 345 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,279 of our common Lord, right, they were. They were going against denominationalism. 346 00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:03,799 They wanted Anglicans and Episcopalians and Baptists and the Presbyterians, you know, 347 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,480 for all of them to be able to worship Jesus. Jesus. That was 348 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:11,759 the focus. So maybe we'll maybe the same principle will play out, you 349 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,720 know, as we colonize the stars one day, you know, going and 350 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,279 pursuing freedom somewhere else. But for now, you got to live somewhere. 351 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:23,359 And I think America is still probably your best bet. I think it's still 352 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,680 probably your best bet. Now that being said, I am saving and I 353 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,599 know this sounds kind of you know, tongue in cheek and comical. But 354 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:38,119 I am literally saving for my Uganda slash Zambia fund for my grandchildren because God 355 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,799 will not be mocked. A man reaps what he subs. We're still reaping 356 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:49,759 the fruit of past sewing of our fathers here in America. But you can't 357 00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:56,480 you can't love apples and hate orchards indefinitely. Eventually, if you stop planting 358 00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:02,559 apple trees, then you're going to run out of apples. Zambia with their 359 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,119 Christian you know, preamble to their constitution, recently adopted Uganda some of the 360 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,119 Christian policies that they're adopting, well, they just started planting orchards. They 361 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,440 just started planting apple tree so they don't have a lot of apples right now. 362 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,519 But God will not be mocked. Right, America isn't successful because of 363 00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:26,039 white skin. It's successful because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if 364 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:32,359 these other nations they so good Christian seed, well, by the time my 365 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:36,440 grandkids are trying to buy homes and start a life for themselves, if America 366 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:41,720 continues its rebellion and Zambia and Uganda can continuing their submission to Jesus christ. 367 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,960 Well, then I want a way for my grandchildren to be able to move 368 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,880 in the same way that I left California for Texas. I'm totally down. 369 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,160 Yeah, I want to be consistent with the principle here, totally down for 370 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,559 Christians to leave America to go to go to some other country. And I 371 00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,559 think that that may eventually happen. I'm not going to make that a self 372 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:04,319 fulfilling prophecy. I'm going to do everything I can here for now. But 373 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,480 right now, again, I think America is your best beat. So that 374 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:11,119 may not always be the case, but right now I think it is. 375 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:17,079 And because it's the case, then the question isn't America versus some other nation? 376 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,880 The question is where in America? Where can I live in this country 377 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,359 that has been blessed by God and make sure that yeah, you know, 378 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:30,160 it's the lesser of two evils. I'm going to be doing something that my 379 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:34,559 contents doesn't really like. But where can I live in this country and fund 380 00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:42,880 the least evil and build the most lasting legacy for my children's children? Your 381 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:51,039 vocal about the concept of Christian nationalism. There are I think competing definitions. 382 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:56,200 One is the media's definition, which is largely absurd and hyperbolic and incorrect. 383 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,440 Be could you talk to us a little bit about Christian nationalism in the context 384 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,440 of this book, actually, you know, the loving by leaving argument. 385 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:08,839 How is all of this connected in your sense? Yeah? Great question. 386 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:15,240 So, um, yeah, well Christian nationalism first, you know, it 387 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:21,119 kind of first picked up momentum as a pejorative coming from leftists and progressives, 388 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:25,920 a pejorative towards Christians. And I think there's a rich tradition of that, 389 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,359 right, So I'm not afraid of that. I'm not dissuaded. I always 390 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,200 tell people Christian nationalism is not a label I would have picked for myself out 391 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,480 of a hat. But if it's going to be assigned to me, and 392 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,079 I don't have much choice in the matter, well then I'll wear it, 393 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,079 and I'll wear it with pride because I think it is, you know, 394 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,799 a label that I can work with. The term Christian itself was a pejoratian 395 00:31:53,039 --> 00:32:00,640 little christ right the first century Church being demeaned and made fun of by the 396 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:06,119 Romans and other pagan people. You know, you're just little christ Christians, 397 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,319 right. The term Puritan that was a pejorative, you know, and we 398 00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:15,920 still use a certain phrasing of that word puritanical as a pejorative. To this 399 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,920 day, Christian nationalism is a pejorative. The question though, is does it 400 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,799 fit? And the reality is, yeah, I think it does. Because 401 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:29,559 this is why, it's not whether but which? That phrase right there, 402 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,160 Emily will will serve Christians. Well, I think so many of us we 403 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,200 still think that, we still think that, oh well, neutrality is a 404 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:44,680 viable option. It's not right so theocracy. It's not whether but which. 405 00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:50,400 So what I advocate for is this, I absolutely believe in a distinction between 406 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,839 the two autonomous sovereign spears of the Church and the state. And I believe 407 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,880 that this isn't just the fruit of classical liberalism or founding documents within our American 408 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,440 tradition. I believe this is a Biblical principle. Even when Jacob gives out 409 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:13,440 blessings to his twelve sons, he bifurcates the scepter civil ruling to Judah and 410 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:21,279 the church priestly sacred duties to Levi. So the scepter and the priesthood are 411 00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:24,880 separated. They're not given to the same son. Okay, So separation of 412 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,200 church and state, Yes, And amen, that would be the opposite of 413 00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:35,160 that. A conflation of those two would be what we might call an ecclesiocracy, 414 00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:38,680 a church run state. So I am not a fan of an ecclesiocracy. 415 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:45,119 However, Christians need to be able to distinguish between these two terms acclesiocracy 416 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:53,720 versus theocracy. Now, ecclesiocracy is church and state conflated a church run state. 417 00:33:54,119 --> 00:34:00,680 Theocracy is simply a god run state. So separation between church and state, 418 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:07,320 yes, separation between Christ and state no. No, Because neutrality is 419 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,920 a myth. It is not whether, but which. Every state will have 420 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:20,440 an allegiance to some deity, some god. There will always be a god 421 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,719 above the state. And in the case when there is not, then that 422 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:30,320 simply means that the state itself has made itself a god. That state ism. 423 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,239 But that is a religion. Religion is inexcapable. That's what culture is. 424 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400 It comes from the Latin word cultists, which simply means worship. Every 425 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,360 society has an orthodoxy. Every society, whether it's on paper or not implicitly, 426 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,519 every society has a religion. It has a god, it has an 427 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:54,559 orthodoxy. With that orthodoxy comes sacraments. Right with those sacraments, and everything 428 00:34:54,599 --> 00:35:00,239 outside of that orthodoxy comes certain blasphemy laws, right can't You can burn an 429 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:06,679 American flag today, but if you burn a Pride flag you might be charged 430 00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:08,719 with a hate crime. And so you know, there's always going to be 431 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,039 things you cannot say, things you cannot do because it's outside of the reigning 432 00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:21,159 orthodoxy. And how is that orthodoxy determined by that society's god. Theocracy is 433 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:25,480 not whether we will be theocratic, but which God will our nation have. 434 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,280 So when I say I'm a Christian nationalist and I want a Christian government, 435 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,639 a Christian state, I am not saying I want a Protestant pope. I 436 00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:39,480 am not saying that I want a church run state. I want clear boundaries 437 00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:45,639 and jurisdictions between the state and the church. I don't want the state serving 438 00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:50,599 and administering the sacraments. I don't want the state determining doctrine and determining what 439 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,119 the church can do. And I don't want the church bearing the sword. 440 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:58,800 I don't want the church giving civil penalties to those who are in sin. 441 00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:04,800 I want clear jurisdictions, a clear separation between the two. But a separation 442 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,960 between church and state never was intended by our founding fathers to be a separation 443 00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:16,119 between Christ and state. Because if it is, if it's not Christ as 444 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:21,960 our theocratic God at the level of our society, the nation, and the 445 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:25,039 government as a whole, if it's not Christ, it won't be neutral. 446 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,239 It'll be another God. And whatever other gods you choose as an alternative to 447 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,559 Christ, that God will be far less compassionate, far less loving, far 448 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:45,360 less gracious. Atheist will fare way better under a Christian nationalism, a Christian 449 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:51,599 nation. Atheist will fare far better in a Christian nation than an atheistic nation. 450 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:54,000 And for those who say, well, we are atheistic and atheists are 451 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,559 doing just fine. Yeah, that's because all of this, if we really 452 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:04,559 pan out and we're honest, all of this is so fresh. This is 453 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,639 all completely novel. This is so in the big scheme of things. This 454 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,199 is just a blip on the timeline. Give it two hundred years. If 455 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,599 we continue in this direction, give it two hundred years and see what America's 456 00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:23,920 like. Nobody will want to live here, no one. The fruit of 457 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:29,280 this nation is not the fruit of principal pluralism, which is just a euphanism 458 00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:35,760 for polytheism and idol pagan worship. The fruit that we have experienced is not 459 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,039 the fruit of classical liberalism. It's the fruit of chrystidom. It's the fruit 460 00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:46,840 of a prior Christian culture, Christian society. It's the fruit of King Alfred 461 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,119 a thousand years ago, with common law coming from the Old Testament scripture, 462 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,119 then morphed by the Puritans and the Founders and the Covenanters, and expressed in 463 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,800 American judicial system that the fruit, the fruit is Christ. And if we 464 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,880 turn our back on him, sure we were faithful to him long enough to 465 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,559 where there'll still be some fruit left over. We could still coast on the 466 00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:15,880 fumes of a prior Christendom for a while, But eventually, eventually it will 467 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,159 become God is not mocked. A man will eventually reap what he says, 468 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:23,800 and we're going to reap the whirldwind. So I want a Christian nation because 469 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:31,400 I love non Christians, I love unbelievers. And James in the Bible he 470 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:37,760 says that the law of God is the law of liberty. Every other law 471 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,119 ultimately is oppressive, but Christian law. Christians are not lawless. We have 472 00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:46,559 a law, but the law of Christ is a liberating law. It's the 473 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:52,480 only law that actually produces freedom and life. And so when I say Christian 474 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,920 nationalists, I'm talking about a separation of church and state, but no separation 475 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,639 between Christ and state. I'm talking about different denominations, but I'm not talking 476 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:07,280 about principal pluralism where all of a sudden in society you have to carve out 477 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,360 spaces for drag queen story hour. That's not what our nation is supposed to 478 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,800 be. That is not honoring to Christ, and it's not good for his 479 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,000 image bearing creatures. So all that being said, yeah, I think we 480 00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:23,039 need to return to a Christian nation. And I think in terms of how, 481 00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:25,320 you know, how do we go from step A all the way to 482 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,679 Step Z, Well, it starts at a local level. And part of 483 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,559 working at a local level is getting in a locale, in a specific local 484 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,679 arena where you can actually build something, where you can act, where your 485 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:45,800 efforts aren't just you know, punching and beating at the wind, where you 486 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,519 know, where there's still some of that Christian residue, some of that freedom, 487 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,880 where you're able to build and start new institutions without so many regulations and 488 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,679 red flags and hoops to jump through, and so I think if we're going 489 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,760 to get back on track, this is what I want people to understand. 490 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:10,480 Leaving California is not a decision to indefinitely hand California to Satan. Satan doesn't 491 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:15,559 get a single square inch. We're not bargaining with Satan. He's not in 492 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:20,960 charge. Jesus is in charge. He says that all authority on earth and 493 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:24,199 in heaven, not just the seventeenth dimension, but on earth and in Heaven 494 00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:29,440 has been given to him. The reason why when Satan tempts Jesus and the 495 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,320 wilderness, I'll give you all the kingdoms of the earth if you bow down 496 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,760 and worship me. A lot of Christians they say, oh, see, 497 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,159 Jesus wasn't He wasn't concerned, He wasn't interested in the kingdoms of the world. 498 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,159 That's why he didn't bow down. No, Jesus didn't take the bait, 499 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,639 not because he didn't care to rule over the kingdoms of this world. 500 00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:47,800 Jesus essentially was saying to Satan, I don't want you to give them to 501 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:52,800 me. I'll take them. And when the Bible says, when Jesus says, 502 00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:57,440 my kingdom is not of this world, no, Christian should ever interpret 503 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,800 that to mean that his kingdom is not in this world. Jesus is the 504 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,800 same, My kingdom is not of this world, meaning the power source for 505 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,480 my rule, my reign, my kingdom is otherworldly. It supersedes, it 506 00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:15,119 is superior to the power and dominion of the kingdoms of this world. But 507 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:22,199 Jesus never said that he wasn't actually concerned about this world. He never said 508 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:27,000 that he's not ruling and reigning with authority in this world. And he never 509 00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:30,320 said his kingdom is not in the world. He simply said that the source 510 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:36,440 of power for his kingdom is not of this world. So all that being 511 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,360 said, Christians want to win every square into the world. So when we 512 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,239 retreat from California, I think it should be viewed as not a retreat, 513 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:51,000 but in advancing to the rear, and it should be viewed as temporary and 514 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,679 tactical, a momentary, temporary, tactical retreat. My plan is to leave 515 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,679 California so that California is no longer propped up by the salt of the earth, 516 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,320 so that Newsom has to lie in the bed that he's been making for 517 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,280 himself. And then I'm going to send my grandkids back in to take over 518 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,000 the land. We're going to take not some of America, We're going to 519 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,639 take all of America, not through coercion, not through force, not through 520 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,480 violence, but by preaching the gospel, by building institutions, by having kids, 521 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,599 baptizing them, not handing them to Caesar and state run schools, but 522 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,920 training them up in the fear and ammunition of the Lord. This is how 523 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,239 we win. This is our strategy, this is our game plan. And 524 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:42,800 so for a moment, in this current moment that we're living in, yeah, 525 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,920 we might need to pull back to where we have a little bit of 526 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:52,079 security, reinforce ourselves, build some you, get some recruitments, get some 527 00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:57,400 reinforcements, and then push back forward. That's okay to take one step back, 528 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,039 so long is it's in the aim, in the aspiration of taking two 529 00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:07,119 steps forward. That's what we're doing. So fight by Flight is just speaking 530 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:13,079 primarily to men and fathers, husbands, but saying, hey, this is 531 00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:16,719 practically what you might need to do for the next ten years, the next 532 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,719 twenty years, maybe the next forty years. But all of this plays in 533 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:27,119 is just one small piece of the bigger puzzle, which is winning the nation 534 00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:30,880 to Christ, and I think we can do it. Joel Webbin is a 535 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:37,480 pastor in Central Texas. He also heads up Right Response Ministries and the book 536 00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:42,960 once again is called Fight by Flight, while leaving Godless Places is loving Godless 537 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,079 Places. Joel, thank you for joining us. Thanks so much, Emily, 538 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:49,679 it was an honor. You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist 539 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,800 Radio Hour. I'm Emily to Shenski, culture editor here at the Federalist. 540 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,400 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and 541 00:43:55,519 --> 00:44:05,119 anxious for the frame in bundor