WEBVTT

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Hold you he is, folks,
it should tie. People pay good money

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to see this movie. When they
go out to a theater. They want

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cold sodas, hot popcorn, and
no monsters in the projection booth. Everyone

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for ten podcasting isn't boring, but
as four thousand, forty ten, board

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and forty two. If you look
while we're doing from four thousand and forty

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ten forty two, if you everry
drag Queen's dream, I'd say we're making

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this public stagument about the connection between
Barbie. There is no annex. The

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decision to get implanted and they turn
into a horrible nightmare. What I've got,

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barbiere I found a hole in the
market. There was no a dol

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doll with which a child could truly
dream her dreams of her future. You

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are very clumsy, Fritz. You
know I'm not wearing you. I am

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absolutely positive that there are a ton
of people out there doing kinkier things with

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their Barbies than we do. This
is Francy. She was the first official

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black Dale put out as a cousin
of Barbie. She did not go over

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bed. I have dolls that her
kame, have dolls that her straight.

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I have dolls that it never had
relationships that I have some that are falling

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in loud. Nobody's divorced yet they
I'll switch around all the time. It's

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very open, you know. There
aren't a lot of rules. I've had

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one since I was a kid.
She's a wonderful thing. I love her.

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I think I'll take her. Hey, folks, welcome to a special

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episode of the Projection Booth. I'm
your host, Mike White. On this

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episode, I'm talking with Susan Stern. She's the director of Barbie Nation.

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It is the unauthorized story of Barbie. Though the film is having its twenty

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fifth anniversary, it is still a
very fresh look at the Barbie phenomenon and

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a great primer for any films that
might be coming out this summer that have

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anything to do with Barbie. It's
now streaming. Hope you enjoy the movie,

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and I hope you enjoy the interview. Before we even talk about Barbie

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NASA, can you tell me your
background. I was a journalist. I

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was an investigative reporter. My last
newspaper was the Oakland Tribune, and my

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last television station was the CBS affiliate
in San Francisco, and that led me

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to start making documentaries. My late
husband was an underground cartoonist. I have

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another film out called Bad Attitude,
the art of Spain Rodriguez, and he

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was part of that scene. And
so a good friend of ours was terry's

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Wigoff, who made the film Crumb. And my late husband, Spain was

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in the Crumb movie. So I
was around that and I thought, gee,

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Terry, who had been working at
the Welfare office, if he can

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make a documentary, I bet I
can make a documentary. And Barbie Nation

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was just being rereleased in the new
director's cut, was my first film.

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What brought about Barbie Nation that I
have to blame on my daughter? She

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was four and a half years old. Somebody gave her a barbied out,

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wasn't me. And then you put
barbies in a dark place, and they

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begin to breed in the dark,
and you open up the cupboard and suddenly

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you have twenty. You thought you
had one. You have no idea how

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they got there. But she had
one Barbie doll, and it was being

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jealous of a different Barbie doll.
And I said to her in my best

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feminist voice, Norah, women don't
have to be jealous of other women,

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and she just looked at me and
said, how about her? First we

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play what I want to play,
and then we can play what you want

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to play. And I thought that
was so funny, and I told her

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to other people, and then they
told me they're Barbie stories, and then

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I had to just get a camera
and get them all down. What is

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your Barbie story, Mike? There's
really only two types of people in the

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world. There's the Barbie glorifiers and
the Barbie defilers. And apparently I was

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just hearing about some European politician who
got into trouble because she revealed that she

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was a Barbie defiler. And I
was a Barbie defiler, which meant that

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as a little girl I was six, I get the very first Barbie doll.

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I first ended was cut off her
ponytail, and then her hair was

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only rooted around the edges of her
scalp, and so her head was completely

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bald. So it just fell down
and she was bald, and that it

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was a traumatizing event for me.
Was that your only Barbie? Or did

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you get more? That was more? Only Barbie? Then they got with

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some other doll and I dislocated her
hip. I don't know what it wasn't

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I didn't mean it. But again, in Barbie Nation, we've got all

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these people who did things to their
Barbie dolls. Boys they would talk about

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throwing the barbie doll up in the
tree and shooting it. Another boy blew

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it up with cherry bombs. I
think there's something very powerful about this doll

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that brings out all sorts of things
in us. So tell me about the

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making of the original version. You
told me a little bit about how it

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came about. Now you pick up
the camera, you start recording these stories.

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But you go all over the place
with somebody. You've got the whole

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conventions, all of these things.
How did you even approach this huge subject.

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Yeah, I'm an investigative reporter.
So I got hold of it and

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I started meeting barbie dealers. Sandy
Holder is a Baria San Francisco Barrea dealer.

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She's in the film. She's still
dealing barbies. She introduced me to

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people. I got involved with the
San Francisco Barbie Doll Club. They introduced

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me to people. The next day, it just bill and then and then

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I had this with this film,
this incredible reporter's karma where I went to

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Mattel when I was first making the
film, and they said, first of

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all, we're not making a film
about Barbie. Back in the day,

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they didn't want to do that,
and you're not either. But I consulted

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lawyers and they said I could do
it. And then I ran into Mattel

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people at one of these Barbie conventions
and we hit it off and they gave

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me access. They gave me access
to the old Barbie doll commercials. They

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let me come to their own Barbie
Doll festival, where I met Ruth Handler,

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the inventor of Barbie and the founder
of Mattel. She had hit it

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off, and one thing just led
to another. One of the incredible things

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in the film is the notorious Barbie
Doll X ray. And that was one

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of my favorite Karma stories because I
was at some bus stuff and I just

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tend to talk to people I've maken
a film about Barbie, and someone said,

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have you seen the Barbie X ray? And I said no, And

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it turned out that there was this
X ray that was in a file in

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a healthcare facility that I obviously won't
name, and they said, everybody knows

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about it that works there. And
they smuggled my camera person into the hospital

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and would put the X ray on
a light table and got an image of

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it. Sometimes the universe whispers to
you, this is what you're supposed to

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be doing. Ruth just herself is
such a fascinating figure outside of what she

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did with Arby, but all of
the work. I'm a towel and all

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the toys. What a fascinating person. Ruce Handler, she was amazing.

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I love the fact that in Barbie
Nation you get the love story between Ruth

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and her husband Elliott, because she
was the business person behind Mattel and she

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came up with the idea of Barbie
based on a German sex style. The

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family saw a vacation in Europe.
But her husband, Elliott, he was

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really the artist and he invented hot
wheels, which was the toy for boys,

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and he did these sculptures in loose
sight, and he's in the film

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as well. And they even invited
their daughter, Barbara Siegel, who Barbarie

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is inspired by, and she's in
the film as well, which is amazing.

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So what happens after the original version
as complete. One of the big

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regrets of my life was that in
nineteen ninety seven. When we made the

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original version, I did quite an
extensive interview in two different places with a

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woman named Marcella who collected Black Barbie
dolls, and I got really into the

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story of Black Barbie and black dolls, and it got so big we couldn't

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fit it into the film, and
so we didn't put it in the film.

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And I always regretted that there's a
new film out right now just coming

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out called Black Barbie, which really
does tell the whole story that I wanted

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to tell. And with that film
out, I went back myself personally and

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cut our Black Barbie section back into
the film. So the twenty fifth anniversary

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director's cut is different because it has
this section in it, and whereas it

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doesn't tell the whole story of Black
Barbie, it tells some of it,

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and so I'm very happy with that. Was it the Greta Gerwig film coming

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out that made you decide to do
this? Were you like, Oh,

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I've always wanted to do this,
and this is just a good opportunity.

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I've always wanted to do it because
Barbie Nation was created in nineteen ninety eight

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pre streaming, so it wasn't streaming. It had a big life in colleges

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and universities. I'll run it into
people now it says, wait a minute,

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I studied that film in women's studies
or DBT studies or gender studies because

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the film speaks to all those things
so much. They saw it in college.

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But it never had any popular viewing. It wasn't streaming. And so

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when I heard the Greta Gerwig film
was coming out, I thought, Okay,

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this is my chance. Let me
see if I can get this out,

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because it's such a great companion to
the Gretty girwingg film. Because I

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think the Gretta Gerwig film seems amazing, but they have to wink at everything.

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They're really on this tightrope of making
a PG thirteen film for kids,

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and yet it's wink, wink,
what are Barbie can doing at night?

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Where's Barbie Nations? It's like we
go there, we you know where the

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growing film winks. Barbie Nation doesn't
blink. It goes into all of the

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things people do with Barbie other than
cutting in the black Barbie stuff. What

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else did you do with the twenty
fifth anniversary? We tried to clean it

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up a little bit. It is
an SD format boy, that seemed great

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at the time, and of course
it's different. It's a different it's the

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four by four aspect ratio. But
we tried to clean up the titles and

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other things a little bit too compensate
for the fact that it is a classic

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film. The format is quaint to
go back and look at something like from

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ninety eight, But then the subject
matter does feel like it's so fresh.

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It feels like that, but it's
also it feels like an island of sanity.

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It just occurred to me the other
day rewatching Barbie Nation, that there's

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a fashion show in it, and
people were into Barbie. Do these elaborate

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fashion shows where people make Barbie costumes
for themselves and then wear these costumes and

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do a fashion show. There's a
very beautiful one. It's filmed at a

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Barbie convention in Birmingham, Alabama,
and people wear these clothes and in this

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fashion show there's people of all shapes
and sizes. There's a child modeling and

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the fashion show and there's a stressing
couple modeling in the fashion show. And

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it's okay, how about that.
Nobody die, no ulcer nerve harm.

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People can just get along. And
these days it just feels, you know,

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these haters, we're coming out and
just making it hearts. Where all

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did you go to make the documentary? You just looked about Alabama now shot

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stuff from the Bay area. Where
else did you go? We went to

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Birmingham, Alabama for this Barbie convention. We went to Orlando, Florida for

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the big Mattel Barbie down convention that
was there. We went all over the

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San Francisco Bay area, and we
went to Los Angeles, of course,

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to shoot at Mattel headquarters. Mattel
invited us in and we filmed their publicity

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people. We filmed in their headquarters
in Los Angeles. We also filmed Ruth

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and Elliott Handler in their Los Angeles
penthouse. We had a wonderful former marking

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person for Mattel and he was in
Los Angeles. And this is again before

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Kickstarter or any go Go or any
of these platforms. How are you funding

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this? We made it for very
little. I made it with I was

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a student. I had been as
I said, a newspaper reporter. I

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had worked for the CBS affiliate at
San Francisco, and I went back to

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school at San Francisco City College to
learn video production because newspapers were dying.

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I was at the beginning of it
was at the beginning of that time when

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my newspaper that I worked for,
the Oakland Tribune, went bankrupt, and

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so we just did it as students. That's how we began Barbarnation, just

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trician I. We borrowed equipment from
the Film and Television department at San Francisco

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City College and we just went out
and did it so it didn't cost anything.

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After that, we got some grants
from Women in Film, the Pacific

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Pioneer Foundation, but we made it
really a shoestring. I tend to think

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of newspapers dying later than when you
were making this movie. But then I

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remember, even here in Detroit,
we had the Detroit operating an agreement where

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it was the Free Press and the
Detroit News operating as one that couldn't afford

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to run into newspapers. So I
guess it was the Internet really was the

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nail in the coffin, and not
necessarily the whole cause of the decline of

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newspapers, right. What was Craigslist
that began the decline because took away all

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the advertising from newspapers and so it
began, So that decline began in the

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eighties after Barbie Nation came out.
Obviously, you talked about how people did

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see it, watch it in school. Where else did it play? It

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premiered on PBS's POV series, the
Point of View Series, which was amazing

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that they put that on. They
had me pixelate the penises. I had

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to do that again for its stream. So nothing has changed changed in that

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twenty five years. People can't see
plastic genitals, and it in broadcasting was

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still going then. So it played
around the world on television and it did

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many festivals. It won the Golden
Spire for Documentary at the San Francisco International

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Film Festival. It premiered the south
By Southwest Film Festival. It was sold

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out in all of these places.
I feel very lucky that I got to

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see an unpixelated version. Oh yes, I'm glad. I'm sure it's damaged

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you and I'm sorry about that.
Yeah, I don't know. Between seeing

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people cross dressing and that plastic penises, I'm probably going to go shoot up

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the office. I don't know what
I said to the person at PBS when

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they said to me. Man called
me and he said, I'm sorry Susan,

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we're going to have to pixelate the
penises. I said, that's probably

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a good idea, because we don't
want little girls to grow up to think

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that they're all really that big.
He did a laugh. But yeah,

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so you get that. You are
now going to be able to stream this

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where all is it going to be
playing? What? Starting today? It

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starts today? It is? It
is live now. It is. Barbie

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Nation is live now on Amazon,
it's the Apple TV app, and it's

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on Google Play, and it's on
Roco's YouTube channel. So if people just

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go to Barbaration dot com, all
those links are up on our website and

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that's easy to find. That's fantastic. How about the rest of your work?

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Where's that at? My other new
film, Bad Attitude The Art of

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Spain Rodriguez is also on Amazon.
It's on two B. That's about to

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play in Sweden actually at a comic
at festival there. Bad Attitude is fun

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because I had to deeply censor that
because my late husband's work was very explicit,

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and with that I put fig leaves
on everything. So I have these

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thirty eight beautiful fig leaves over everything. Add Attitude The Art of Spain Rodriguez.

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I don't know, I just like
getting into trouble. What else are

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you working on these days? I'm
actually thinking about ways because you may have

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noticed stuff gotten older. I'm actually
more interested in amplifying other people's voices now,

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So I'm looking at some ways to
work with younger people on their creative

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expression and help other people get what
they have to say out there. Is

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there a good place for people to
keep up with you and your work online?

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Yeah, Barbie Nation dot com.
Barbye Nation. That's where I'm going

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to be. We're also Barbie Nation
doc or Susan Edith Stern. I'm on

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social media all over the place,
but yeah, Barbie Nation Doc. It's

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a place to go. Mister,
And thank you so much for your time.

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This is so great talking with you. Yeah, it was really fun,

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Mike, Thank you for having me
on. Hi you, Bobby,

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you want to go for a ride
John down in the Bobby World blacking planting.

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It's fantastic. You can brush their
hair and rust me everywhere. Imaginations

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that is your creation. Come for
me. Let's go party in the body

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world at Santa You will rust my
head. I don't see everywhere imaginations that

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is your creations. I'm a flashing
fan that you work with me up,

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make time. I'm not Doly,
You're my tall rock and roll feel the

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climb or thanks be here, trust, be there, hack banking, you

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can utch, you can say be
saved. I'm a bobbing in the body

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world, landing and nation a barb
Let's go party. Come on forbul Let's

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go party. Come on be Let's
go party. Come on, Rbu,

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Let's go party. Make me walk, make me ain't got you being my

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friend? Then I do again in
the sounds old around and to party.

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You can you come on, Morbu, Let's go party. Come on Forbula

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go party. Come on the Barby, Let's go party. Come on Barby,

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Let's go party. In everywhere in
ninety days is your free Asian in

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the Bobby everywhere ninety days and your
free Asian. Come on Barby, let's

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go party. Come on, Rby, Let's go party. Come on Forby,

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Let's go party. Come on Harby, Let's go party. Having so

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much time? Well bowen, we're
just getting started. However, all you can