Hello everyone. I'm Martin Willershire, host and I'm really happy that I have my friend and a blogger of this show. He's been a faithful blogger of this show. Now I went back Charles Lear by the way, I look back in the email history because I wonder to see when did Charles first start blogging, and I found that it was February of twenty nineteen. And I want to say on a weekly basis, he's been faithful with these wonderful blogs. He does a lot of deep research into the history, and with all his research, it sort of gave him an idea to write a book, which I think was a great idea. This is tonight that was called The Flying Saucer Investigators, or I may have that off a little bit. His book he just put out now is called Crash Saucers and Malevolent Aliens the emergence of the popular modern UFO mythos in the late twentieth century. So I want to bring him in in just a second, just a couple of things of this show is going to be just cut just a little bit short tonight because I have a Zoom conference that I'm doing a talk for a group of people. So that's at eight o'clock sharp, so I have to jump, but I wanted to let you know also that next week I'm going to have Melanie Kirstendorfer and Mike Cissino, and Mike will be in studio. He only lives twenty minutes from here. He was a police officer that on September one, nineteen sixty nine, him and his mother watched this craft come out of the water on Long Island and head towards the Burkeshears. And the show is going to be about the Burkeshears. So that should be a because there's actually some updates that Melanie wants to talk about, which, you know, things, A lot of things have happened since that came out on Netflix, and so it'll be really interesting to have her back on and to have Mike here in the studio. So that's next week, same time, seven o'clock, next Tuesday night, and so I think it's I want to thank you everyone of course that listens to the show, and everyone that supports the show. And we're going to bring Charles in right now. Charles welcome. Hello, Martin. Were you surprised that I said it was February of twenty nineteen. I mean I kind of knew that. Yeah, yeah, five years. Well, and so that and like a weekly a weekly basis. Let's you add those numbers up. That's a lot of material, Yes, it is. Yeah, that's quite a bit. Yeah. And and how how has that been for you? Do you do you still get excited about researching this topic and people. Yeah, I enjoy it. I enjoy the whole process. I like writing, I like research, and I like the subject. So yeah, it's I enjoy it. It's it's just a really pleasant way to spend my downtime. Yeah, yep. And I remember for a while you were living out in New Mexico for I know, during COVID. You know, we all did different types of things. And I remember when you were out there and you went to visit Dave Marler and look at his great archive. That must have been a lot of fun for you. Yeah, it's amazing. I'm actually looking forward to getting back out there because he just got a hold of the Apron Aerial Phenomenal Research Organization Organization archives and they've been in print in hands forever and he finally got a hold of them, and I can't wait to peruse them. Yeah, I was talking to him recently. He's going to come on, uh sooner or later, you know, when things get more established for you know, he's trying to have that building, you know, for housing it now you know, I mean you saw what his garage looked like. He was jam packed with with with the April on top of it. Yeah, I'm sure he's hurting for space. He needed the either building edition or get another building. Yeah. But yeah, he's I think, but he started I believe a foundation or a nonprofit. It's a nonprofit nonprofit. Yeah, so he's trying to get funding to get and looking for a building, right. So yeah, and Lee Spiegel's archive are good for from my good friend in the front of the show, Lee Spiegel's ar I've will be actually going to that location eventually. So I want to speak quickly about this. And that's doctor Bruce mccabee. I saw a post I don't know, maybe a week or so that his wife posted on his eighty second birthday, and then we lost him a couple of days ago. So doctor Bruce mccabee, he was on this show a number of times and a really nice gentleman. So I want to say that this coming Thursday on the UAP Crossfire that's on this YouTube channel is going to have a dedicated show just to Bruce mcabee and you know the different things he meant it the four of us that'll be talking, and so that'll be on this Thursday at eight pm on this YouTube channel at the UAP Crossfire. Probably going to put that audio into the feed podcast podcast feed as well. So, yes, we lost another I con And I know you did you you wrote, oh, he's in the in your new book, right, Yeah. I referenced him a couple of times in the book. Yeah, yeah, And he did a lot of really uh interesting work. You know, he worked. He was with the Navy. I want to say, I don't want to get it wrong, but I thought I remember him saying his Naval intelligence. I believe so your Office of Naval Intelligence, and he did. I think he did a laser research and I referenced him in the book because he was uh he actually did did a session with the c I AY. They were interested in UFOs and so he did a presentation for them to brief them on the subject. He was trying to get it in exchange for some uh radar information on a UFO case he was working on. Yeah, so that was with Kick Green. Uh. Yeah, he actually caught some flag for that, being accused of being a disinformation agency. So that that's brought up in the book. Yeah, there's a there's another case where someone questioned him. I don't know if I would ever go into talking about it, but but there was another question also besides that one particular case talking about So I mean, maybe he had a connection for a while. Who knows, you know what I mean, it's awful hard to say, but but anyway he did. I thought he did great work. We have now we have Mark di' antonio doing, you know, for move On, doing this type of work and yeah, photo analysis and video and but he gets so much. I actually sent something to him today and you know, he's a good friend and sometimes he's just too busy he can't even respond. I understand that. I can definitely understand that with the amount of emails I get. So let's talk about your book. Here's the cover and very nice and interesting graphic and did you did you just tell the graphic? And this is someone actually in the UFO world that did this graphic. I don't know if you could talk about that yeah, sure, uh, this is uh. I was really happy with how I really enjoyed the way Adam go Rightley's book Saucers, Books and Kooks looked. I thought it was really sharp, and I was hoping to uh get the book published by the publisher. Publisher. I knew the publisher that you did the book in the hopes that my book would look as good. The publisher passed. But then I saw Miguel Romero, the guy did the cover. He also goes by the name red Pill Junkie. He was looking for work. He posts. He writes for Daily Grail and he had a posting on Daily Grail. By the way, if anybody needs a graphic designer, I could use the work. So I emailed him and we talked about the book, and this is what he came up with. Basically, I reference well the word ufo. The word phrase ufo circus comes up over and over again in the book, and it comes from other people. The people like people talking about just the mess. The books mostly about is about from the generally the nineteen eighty the start of the nineteen eighties. It threw up to the present, but mostly the last part of the twentieth century. Just what a crazy world Youuthology became during that period, so the word UFO circus comes up quite frequently. So I said, you know, hey, Miguel, how about we do some circus type graphics with a Carnival Barker And this is what he came up with. I love it, and then the grays and the I think it's in manchis in the back. Yeah, I'm in a crash saucer of the military. It's all good. And this will be of course in the if you're listening to the audio, this will be in the show notes along with you know, a link to the book. And so anyway, I guess I have to ask you this, what spawned the idea to do this? Well. I was going to do a follow up book to The Flying Saucer Investigators, which covers the period from nineteen forty seven to the termination of Blue Book in nineteen sixty nine, and it was going to be Pithody called the UFO Investigators. So I realized what crazy mess things turned into in the eighties and how complicated it was going to be to write about that period. So I thought I'd take a stab at it. And it occurred to me that a showcase for the mess that theupology became was UFO Cover Up Live, which was an absolutely ridiculous show hosted by Mike Farrell, and it had Bill Moore. It was I was going to ask if Bill Moore is involved in Bill Moore, Stanton Friedman, Jamie chanderat all the MJ twelve folks, I featured the MJ twelve staff. It had Richard Doty and Robert Collins as Condor and Falcon. Their identities were obscured, the silhouetted figures disguised voices as inside government ex government insiders discussing the and Dotie it's been He denies it, but it's almost certainly him. You can even see his glass and that's the same inflections in his voice. He describes that there were three aliens had been guests of the United States. We had one in Coostody at present or not Costody as a guest at present. And he said they like ancient Tibetan music and their favorite snack of strawberry ice cream. Oh yes, yes, strawberry ice cream. Who could forget that? And yeah and more, and Chanderet and Friedman made a big show of their roswell research and the graphics were absolutely lurid if you with crash, Saucers and dead aliens, and Freedman said that UFOs are real period and yeah, yeah, but anyway, in any case, so I the way I wrote about UFO Cover Up Live was behind the scenes of UFO Cover Up Live, the characters and the events that led up to it, which is the whole Roswell m J twelve, Richard Doty, Paul Benowitz mess is heavily involved in that, and this involved the well. I don't want to go too far, but in any case, I thought I was going to be able to cover this whole thing in two blogs. It turned into a five part series. So if anybody's familiar with Mirage men a lot of the materials and that Greg Bishop's Project Beta. I referenced that and Adam go Rightley Saucers, Spooks and Kooks. I also referenced that it involves MJ twelve the aviary, which is turned more in Chanderay gave bird names to all Moore's government insider informants, one of whom was Dodie, who more claims and it's seems most likely that Dody recruited him as a to work as an informant, a disinformant, and to also work with him. And he says to us more said, to a small degree to disinformed Paul Benowitz, who Okay, we're getting I'll try and some of this up real quick now, Paul, real quick. Paul Benowitz was a government contractor who lived next to Kirtland Air Force Base and was convinced he was seeing UFOs over the Manzano Test Range the Monzana Weapon Storage Area near Coyote Canyon, and he set up surveillance equipment which included radio detection equipment, and so he was recording signals coming from Kirkland Air Force Base, many of which were confidential government communications military communications. He informed the Kirkland Air Force Base that he was seeing UFOs over there. I thought they had a security problem, and then he said, your security problems are UFOs. We should have a meeting. They sent Dodie out. He said, well, why don't we come to your place first. So Doty went out to his place all all the surveillance equipment aimed at Kirtland Air Force Base and went back and said, I think we need to talk to this guy. They brought him in and he gave her a whole presentation in front of like some really big brassvy hitters at Kirkland Air Force Base and told them that not only was he seeing UFOs, he was in communication with the creatures flying them. Uh. And he asked if he could have some funding to help research, and they basically responded by seeking Dody on him, Richard Dodie, who was with Air Force Office of Special Intelligence and a self proclaimed c I, a trained disinforman disinformant agent. So Dodie's job was basically to neutralize him. The extent to which his actions were sanctioned is opened a question, and I looked into that in the book, but I looked into it in the blogs as well, and along the way, he also seems so targeted more uh and Linda Moulton Howe, who is famous for cattle mutilation research mainly. So yeah, so that that's all part of the story. But then it turns out Dodie was seemed to have been forging documents and passing him on the more to pass him on to the UFO community. And it's he's a real good suspect for me to talk about for the m J twelve for the MG twelve papers. He's he's, he's he's a case of a very good suspect for having, if not created them himself, having a very heavy hand in that. And that's another one as to whether it was sanctioned by It doesn't seem to have been sanctioned in my eyes by a FOSIE, the Air Force Office of Special Intelligence. But in any case, It's more More went public with them, and they became a big deal. They were debated and anyway, all this led along the way besides Dodie with the MJ with him the MJ twelve papers, people started coming forward and he's more started making connections with government insiders, which he was what he was hoping would happen. He had said, if he's released information slowly about what was in these documents. So he made a lot of connections and these government insiders told him things I heard from a guy who heard from a guy, and Moore thought he was getting the skinny on what the government knew about crash saucers and malevlent aliens. So you see how I did that? Yeah, yeah, So and this all led up to UFO cover up live and on the set of UFO cover up Live More actually ended up being a consultant. He actually took the producer, Michael Seligman, out to an island in the middle of the Great Lakes to meet up with some of the members of the aviary, which included Dodie I think, I think John Alexander, the people of that ilk. So when the it seems more really thought that this was going to be a showcase for him Chanderrat and Friedman, and that he was going to go big time, and the show flopped. It was just it was a mess. It had a lot of technical problems. The producer was not very experienced, really knew very little about the UFO subject. There was a writer strike, and the show ended up pretty crappy. Yeah, just just to take a little side step period here, just just for the new listener. The m J twelve Documents where supposedly Jamie Chameray received a package in the mail from an anonymous source at Kurtland with an Albuquerque postmark, which makes dirty the suspect. Oh, I see yep. And then I believe he developed film that had pictures of the Is that what it was? Yes, the film was exposed. He got a canister a little canister of film. Yeah, at Exposed Film when they developed it, they had what are called the Eisenhower Briefing documents. Yes, so that's you know, for the newcomer that it basically was, you know, I mean it's never been it's been debated a lot. Like you said, Stan Freeman thought they were one hundred percent all the way to the end, but there's so many more people that have also done a lot of research on them and just say it's not possible. The you know, if you had original documents, that would be a different thing, but a picture of a document is not going to you know, cannot stand alone. Especially when it comes to Eisenhower's signature. Anyone could take you know, one of his signatures or you know the auto pen signature type of you know, situation, copy it and make it look like it's part of the document. I mean, there's no way around that. The just before the strange thing is a friend of mine has an auction haul and he was selling in a state for an FBI agent that lived in Japan, and in his foot locker where the m J twelve docs. I remember you're telling me, Yeah, that's pretty Yeah. So anyway, along with this set of blogs. I wrote a series on abduction research and how that all went sideways. There was a real scandal with David Jacobs from history Professor Temple, who made some inappropriate suggestions to a woman he was hypnotizing over the doing hypnosis, regression, hypnosis over the phone or whatever it was. Yeah, I believe it was over the phone from America to England. Yeah. And at one point he suggested she send him the unwashed panty she was wearing when she was raped by an alien hybrid so he could test for alien sperm. I'm sorry if that's a big graphic. So that all came out and people started, a couple of articles came out about the methods of Hopkins and Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs. Spot Hopkins basically really got the subject serious attention and respect in the UFO community with his book Missing Time. But you know, and he they were definitely both in earnest when they started. Egos and Pumpman and the Spotlight tend to do weird things to people, it does, and yeah, I've seen that so many examples of that, Yes, and also of when someone has is known for one thing, how all of a sudden that one thing becomes more and more embellished. Yeah, you know, to make it you know here and now it's you know, still relevant. And even John Matt came under a lot of criticism for his methods as well. He was infiltrated essentially by a uh an investigative journalist who posed as a an abductee victim, and then she wrote an expos a I never knew that? Is that also in your book? Yes, also in the book. Uh so that was in the series of So I I what I did with the book is the first part is the abduction, all the abduction stuff. The second part really starts with the the Crash Saucer thing, which really started with Leonard Stringfield, who had been around forever since the fifties. He was one of the very first UFO researchers. And so that's the second part of the book and it all goes into where this whole Crash Saucer, the Crash Saucer stories came from. And when I but when I I went to I was gonna. I looked at both the blogs and I the sets of the blogs. I feared i'd expand them into the book. I thought it'd be a lot easier than it was the blogs. I didn't. I could only go so deep given the amount of time I had to write the blogs. So I had to go much deeper, especially considering the stories that are being told. I really had to make sure that I was I went to I basically tried to tell the story through other sources as much as possible. It's not me accusing these people of other people, get it, you follow me. I'm not going to take the blame for this. So I really researched deeply. I think they I think the bibliography is like twenty pages. It's a lot, and I was told it was. But anyway, so I realized there was a a narrative that these were telling. Well, there was this what was really being told here? And I put it in the introduction and essentially laid it out, saying the purpose of this book is to explore the development of the various narratives that have together created the mythos of gray aliens with big black eyes coming here from Zeta Reticuli to abduct humans, mutilate cattle, and experiment in secret underground bases, working to create hybrids to replace us, all with the knowledge of a secret government that has recovered crashed flying saucers and alien bodies, So that pretty much encapsules it. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. Well, you know, I have to say that you know a number of people that saw Whitley Strieber's book Communion and the alien on that picture, that picture that have had experiences and I'm talking about way back when in the nineteen I can't remember, seventy two, seventy three, the Allygash incident when those guys had you know, the incident happened to them. And Jim is recovering and after a fall on a construction site, he was recovering and reading books and he was in really serious shape. And this is ten years after the incident, and he's looking through like a stack of books and he pulls out Communion and he just goes nuts because that's that picture of the alien with the big black eyes is what he remembered, and the whole memory came back to him and then, you know, I don't know if you know that story and death, it's really a fascinating. Well. Yeah, I've actually heard the several stories of people people saying that when they saw that covered that Some people say they were literally like knocked back. Yeah, uh and yeah, And I mentioned in the book that it was that cover that cemented the alien gray into the into the public consciousness. It's just that, you know, the idea that the gray is that that that that single narrative is the one that dominated the late twentieth century is what I'm really looking at. And were I mentioned the fact that there were there's a plethora of creatures mentioned, and there's still if you go to Albert Rosales as a Humanoid catalog, he has a whole series of books, year by year by year of all the different creatures people see, and there there's a wide variety, far more than the gray, far more than the grays. And the only problem, you know, the main problem with that is if researchers have this one narrative in mind, they're going to ignore people that have say they see other things. Yeah, oh, you know, it doesn't fit the narrative, it must not be valid. So a lot of people, a lot of cases fall through the cracks because of that. So that you know, that's the damage this sort of thing, as you know as dogma can cause. In my opinion, Yeah, that's kind of a that's that's really actually well put. And yeah, I mean here's the thing. You know, people have seen things forever, and who's to say, you know, I mean, you know some of the myths that came from our past, you know where it could mean, you know, people were seeing something been visiting us back then. You know, science has really only been around since the sixteen hundreds. Yeah, and very short. Yeah, I mean the gods have been with us for far longer. So to think that, you know, four hundred years we killed or five hundred years we could have killed the gods, I think it is rather arrogant. That's right. Here's a question for you. Have you ever seen a UFO? No, I haven't have it. And you know that's that's just fine. You know some people will say, oh, well, why you you know doing this, and you know I basically ask you that, But I mean I don't think. I mean, Stan Freeven never saw one, Stephen Bassett never saw one. You know, these these people and then there are there is a normal experiences hour Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I've had psychic experiences and I've psychic dreams. When involving a coworker who had a dreamt he had a heart attack, and the next day he did and it wasn't like a guy that was showing symptoms of it. And there's a ghost. It seems to be a ghost at the Metropolitan APLEA that wakes me up. I take naps, I put my feet up on the bench. Uh, and I can, I can go right out. And oftentimes, when you know lunch is over, a coworker will wake me up. So I've been feeling I feel this something grab my toes and jiggle them. I opened my eyes and say thank you, and there's nobody there. It's it's not a feeling, a sensation I've had ever before. You know, I've done things where like uh, you know on twitch or think you know, occasionally I don't know if you've ever done it. You think like you close your eyes and you're you're drifting off and then all of a sudden, you feel like you're falling and you stop yourself. Yeah, it's nothing like that. Is like a stink feeling of somebody jiggling my toast. And I've been told there are definitely ghosts at the met That's easy enough to believe. But anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Yeah, I was on another show earlier today and I was talking about someone else we lost Paulino recently and how his theory. Oh he was adorable. I liked him. Oh you didn't know that he passed. No, No, I didn't. Oh, I'm sorry, he really, I mean, I don't know. They got kind of left in the dust with this whole Skinwalker ranch thing because they were some of the earliest investigators of paranormal hotspots, him and his son, right, Oh, yeah, him and Ben, so they you know, basically, his idea is that everything's related, you know, the Bigfoot, UFOs and ghosts and all intermensional, interdimensional. Last time I talked to him, that's, you know, basically what he was. He he came up with with the many years of the research. Yeah, there's actually there's a term forrest poltergeist. I think Travis Wall Travis Watson came up with that calls it the forest polter geist. So that they basically thinks, well, you know a lot of the stuff people report around Bigfoot, you know, with knocks and rocks being thrown and et cetera. You could if it was in a house, it would be a polter geys If it's in the forest. They say it's bigfoot. How about that? Yeah, yeah, well I've told my experience here before. I've had had something happening. Hold that whole thing with you in the house and the basket on the ground. Tell you that. I hope I don't have to tell that story tonight. But okay, I want to get more into two. You know what you're doing, But I do have a question. Palmer helps out a lot with this show and SODA's brock Brock helps out with the Facebook page and it does a really good job of that. And Palmer has been sending me links for years to all kinds of things. A lot of times when I find out something new that happened, or someone said this on X or Twitter, whatever you want to call it, it's usually because of Palmer. So I have a great debt of gratitude toward Palmer. And he sent this question for you today. Which historic UFO cases do you find the most compelling and the best evidence of non human intelligence? I really actually it's one of them is in the book. It's so it's not a total book that totally debunking, but yeah, I love this case as a case in Kentucky in nineteen seventy six January nineteen seventy six with three women, Mona Stafford, Louise Smith, and Elaine Thomas. And I'll bring it up, so tell it right. But yeah, it involves medical that they all suffered burns. There's conjunctivitis. They call it pink eye, but it's all the symptoms of conjunctividis, which is basically eyeburn from multra violet light, which John Keo actually brought out as a very common effect. And it's also I see it in report after report after report. So yeah, here it is. This showed up in the October nineteen seventy six APRO bullet and it also made the papers the February twelfth, nineteen seventy six Kentucky case Casey County Press. And yeah, they yeah, they were out celebrating Mona Stafford's birthday. They didn't drink, they said they didn't drink any alcohol, and they left at eleven pm. And as they were driving, they saw an object that a metallic disshaped object with a glowing white dome, three or four lights on the underside that were red and yellow, bluish beam of light issued from the bottom and they estimated its size as being as big as a football field. It gently rocked back and forth and then moved off to the to their left. Smith continued driving and then they noticed a blue light coming from behind them. They thought it was a police car at first, and they realized it was the object that had circled around and came up behind them. Then the car started pulling to the left and Smith yelled to Smith, who was driving. Louise Smith yelled to Stafford to help her control it. Car accelerated to eighty five miles per hour. Stafford and Thomas yelled at Smith to slow down and I love this part. Smith responded by holding up her foot to show them it wasn't her doing the accelerating. The Stafford grabbed the steering wheel helped her to try and regain control. They women then felt a burning sensation in their eyes, a pain that seemed to come down from the tops of their heads. Then it seemed like the car was being pulled backwards and they were going over speed bumps. They saw a strange lit up road in front of them that went on for as far as they could see. Stafford noticed that a red light was lit on the instrument panel, indicating that the engine had stalled, but they still seemed to be moving at high speed. And then in an instant they found themselves coming into Houstonville, eight miles away from where they'd encountered the object. They arrived at Liberty Where, which was at Kentucky their destination at one twenty five, when they should have gotten there at midnight, and seemed to have lost about an hour and a half. They all said they had burns on the back of their necks UH, and their eyes were burning, and Stafford actually sought medical attention. They talked to a neighbor right there and yeah, and so all this stuff was from conscious recall UH. But then the case gets all cocked up, And that's kind of why it's in this book. I love the case, but it cocked up because April, the mutual UFO network, and q PHOS all descended on this case. H q FOS and mouf On were there first, and April sent doctor Leo Sprinkle, was a pioneer in UH abduction. Hypnosis regression technique is part of the abduction investigation. And when Sprinkle got there, they were say, what Apro's here, and Moufon had a beef with APRO. Mufon split off from APRO basically because they thought April was oneted too much centralized control. They were started off as a Midwest UFO network and then became the Mutual UFO network. So they already had a beef. So when the freakle showed up, they said, well, yeah, we'd love you to regress them, but we don't want you to send a report to APRO. And Apple would pay for him to go out there and take too kindly to that. So there was a little fussin and feud and going on. Uh and Stringfield was there, and in any case, it came out that they they did regress the women. A fairly typical abduction scenario came out. It wasn't typical grays, but it was them on a table and they did some drawings and they're in some weird the abduction scenari essentially with medical examination included, but a polygraph somebody later I think it was a polygraph examiner said, you know, the women seem to be telling. They asked the questions based on what they had said during the hypno secessions. Do you think you experienced this, this, this, and this and the polygraph examiner said they seem to have genuinely experienced seem they believed they experienced it, but he couldn't tell how much the investigators had influenced their stories by their leading questions. And at one point Stringfield actually put a a book full of pictures of aliens next to one of the women. I forget which one off, and while she was coming coming I guess coming down from hypnosis is one way you could say it. There's another word for it. You're you're still kind of in a in that state. He kind of slipped the book to her during when she was in that state, and she started looking through it, so like things like an apro really took issue with how they handled it and basically said they they thought that the investigators had definitely cocked it up by unduly influencing the witnesses. But I do I really liked that case just because of the details. And it's three women, all three of them telling the same story. So that's a multiple you know, kind of like the Allegash incident, some multiple witnesses and medical evidence as well. Yeah, interesting, what year did you say that happened? Nineteen seventy six, Here's another question here for you, and it basically starts out to simple, guys are clever. Do you think that they could have made up or made a fake MJ twelve documents to discredit any future real documents that might reference a MJ twelve type of group. I personally have my thoughts on that. I don't know if you want me to say, but I think, yes, very well. Could that could be part of it? Because a lot of people have speculated over the years that they think there could be some type of group assembled like MJ twelve, you know, that could have different people with you know, different special specialists and degrees and things like that. All. You know, I hope there is at least people ready in the event something actually does happen. I can imagine there, But I don't think that the MG twelve. I think the MG twelve documents. I think if if Dody did do it, it would fit the pattern of him. It would fit his patterns. He's pretty likely the guy who hoaxed the whole Project Cirpo thing that's discussed in Mirage men Uh, and they get pretty much good evidence for him hoaxing that. He's essentially it seems to have been a serial hoaxer and to have been involved in a game of role play within the UFO community. Uh. And it's interesting that he goes at least he went to UFO conventions and hung out there, and you know, well that's the only they're the only people really know who he is. So good faint, Yeah, the same he's gathered for himself doesn't mean anything unless people know he's famous. So that's the only people who know are the people at the UFO conventions. Yeah. Well, you know, I could go on about that, you know, I mean, I think it's I got a really good thing about Doughty. What's interesting, I got his somebody managed to get his service records. It's the specific person is mentioned in the book, but basically, when the Eisenhower briefing documents came out in December nineteen eighty four, Dody went off to was sent off to Germany in January nineteen eighty five, and apparently he was he was doing counterintelligence work there. So it looks like they set him up with this little operation against Benowitz and then off he went to play in the bigger leagues, and he screwed up there. It seems he failed a polygraph test when they suspected him of making up stories about his contacts and I think Soviet contacts with Soviet agents. But when Moore released the Eisenhower Briefing documents, which is the MJ twelve papers, that was May twenty eighth, nineteen eighty six December nineteen eighty six, Doty was essentially on k P duty. He was basically when he screwed up in Germany, he ended up back in Kirtland, no longer with a posy. He was in charge of the mess hall, so he essentially was Oh I heard that he was on. So while the MK twelve papers are hitting the headlines, Doty's running the mess hall. So you know, as far as Doty being part of this really deep, intelligent you know, it really doesn't seem that they have been as high up in the ranks as he would like people to believe. Yeah, and you know, he has been saying some pretty outrageous things in different documentaries that he's been in and like about you know, the alien beings and things like that. And I personally, you know, I don't know, I gotta watch what I say, but I mean, I just caution people to be careful of what you believe in when it comes to what is he's out there. Well, something interesting came up on the podcast I was on last night. You know, all this stuff, all this the UFO silliness of the eighties. We're talking like John Lear, Bill Cooper, the stories they were, we're just outrageous. Yeah, characters like Robert o'dean. But I'll e everybody will know. Is the alien aptopsy video? Oh? Yes, yeah, And I admit at the time I bought it. Yeah, Oh look how they're peeling that thing that looks real. You know, I want to hear the sad thing about me, you know, I mean, I was so big. I had my auction hall going and I was going really really busy, and you know, I didn't have time for anything. And I walked in and that was playing on the TV on the news, and I go, oh my god, Wow, so they're real. Okay, Now I got to go, you know, move this truck and unload it. And you know, like I didn't pay much attention to it even when I thought it was real. That's pretty sad. Yeah, but I'll go real quickly because I know you got to go. Yeah, but yes, but what I was saying, is that I all these outrageous things. I was just like kind of passively taking in and buying. But what's interesting is, you know, it was the kind of stuff that should have just shook my world in terms of, you know, what I saw is real, and it didn't. And what I'm thinking is there was a good element of a suspension of disbelief. You know, we're I'm kind of believing it but not believing it at the same time, you know what I mean. You know, that's a term for like when you go to the theater, like you know, you put aside the fact that they're actors on a stage pretending in order to enjoy the play. Yes, it's called a suspension of disbelief. So it's sort of I really get a sense that that's what was going on in my head and probably a lot of other people's heads as well, you know. But in any case, well, it's been a real pleasure at time. Sure went by off of fast. Here's the book here, and it will be down in the show notes and down in the text below for anyone that choose to order. There's also a kindle version that's available, and thank you so much. Charles and thank you for all the things you do for this show on a weekly basis. It's really really appreciated, the audio blogs and the blogs and they're just so good. And I really appreciate you my pleasure, and I appreciate you. You're actually you're acknowledged in the book. Okay, anyway, you have a good friend, all right, you take care, all right, all right. Once, so we'll be back next week with Melanie Kurtzendorffer and Mike Sizino about the Berkshire's UFO. Remember to keep your eyes to the sky.