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I am Dan P. Valley coming at you without Andrew D. Bailly
this time. I am, however, pleased to welcome back NBA Math founder,
editor in chief and editor for Bleacher Report Adam Frammel. You can follow
him on Twitter at Framo zero nine. And if he's here, you know
that means we're getting back to our decade player ranking series for each franchise.
We are up to the Detroit Pistons. We are going to get to their
top ten players of the past decade just in a minute. Our usual housekeeping
notes, though, please remember to continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to
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products. Adam, it has been a minute. How are you doing?
You know what, I'm doing pretty good. I'm in a good mood,
and I don't know if that's going to last for the next hour or so
because, like spoiler alert to the Pistons fans who are listening to this one,
but I have a feeling we're not going to say many good things about
this franchise. Do you know what I like about Pistons fans, though they
seem to be really in tune with their turmoil. They understand it, they
recognize it, they acknowledge it. Where I do feel like some fan base
get unnecessarily combative, or they have these deluded opinions of how their franchise is
still just one step away from from making a huge leap, or maybe that
they've done a better job than most people think. And there have been teams
that are worse over the past decade than the Pistons. Shout out New York
Knicks, but I respect the Pistons fans embracing it. And as another quick
housekeeping note, as you might hear in the background, we still do have
new puppies around these parts at the Danfa Valley household. So Thor's with me
right now. He's attempting to break out of his big gass puppy bubble that
I have for him. So if he if he goes rogue, just don't
mind that this is real podcasting. We're not editing out any puppies. We
made that decision before we started. But yeah, shout out, shout out
to Pistons fans, because again, there are fan bases that don't really lean
into the problems their franchises have had, and I respect that Pistons fans are
just acutely aware of not just their current situation, but what has happened over
the past decade or so. Yeah, and before we dive into the actual
rankings, can we just take a moment to discuss how bad this decade has
been for the Pistons too, because I think it's worth noting before we talk
about the players. Is just like the complete lack of team success. We
had won five hundred season last year they went forty four and thirty eight in
twenty fifteen sixteen. That was the high water point. But they have literally
not won a playoff game this entire decade. They made the postseason twice,
they got swept in the first round both times. And I think the highlight
of the entire decade is probably stan Van Gundi telling them to build a fucking
wall. And when when a viral moment from a coach in a huddle,
it is probably the most memorable moment of your decade. Not good, No,
I'm with you. They have the end during this stretch between twenty twenty
eleven and now they have the twenty third highest winning percentage in the NBA.
A cool I would rather be the Charlotte Hornets or something and just be like
as bottomed out as p possible because they have been on that mediocrity treadmill the
entire time. Yeah, there there's some there's some rough teams though, in
that stretch of Sacramento, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Knicks, Orlando, the
Nets, the Hornets, there's definitely case be made that I feel like the
Pistons situation this past decade is worth worse than that win percentage. Just reflect
Yeah, I just I look at like the division finishes, and they've been
third or fourth out of five teams in the division all but two seasons,
and during their two last place division finishes, one in twenty seventeen one in
twenty fifteen, they won thirty seven and thirty two games. So it's not
like they were bottoming out with respect to the entire NBA and getting a top
draft pick like they've They've never been the worst. They've just been consistently bad,
and that that's not where you want to be. I'm sorry, Pistons
fans. We're not trying to hate. We're more trying to commiserate with you
because we have to talk about them now. Yeah, and some of it
is bad timing or beyond their control. I don't know if you should have
ever given out that Reggie Jackson contract, John Wall where Jill Josh Smith one
was inexcusable, but Reggie Jackson was just good when he was healthy was then
never healthy. They also invested in Andre Drummond at a time when he would
have commanded that contract probably had he reached the open market. But yet now
is when the idea of rebuilding around a big man who doesn't really do a
lot off the dribble or space the floor for you. It's deteriorated. That's
just whole idea. So some of it's just been bad timing and you can't
absolve the front office of all those decisions. Also putting stan Van Gundi in
charge of the front office and naming him the head coach that was always felt
like it was going to be. Whenever someone has had those titles in the
NBA, it really hasn't turned out well. So for the NFL, shout
out to Bill O'Brien. I don't even know what the Texans are doing right
now. This is a basketball podcast, though, let's not we can pour
the Texans are awful. They've already been eliminated from NFL playoff contention, So
I apologize to Deshaun Watson. Can you start us off with our consolidated ranking
ad him and just as a reminders, it has been a couple of weeks
since we've done one of these episodes, and they will be coming out a
little bit more regularly. Now. We have Adams rankings, my rankings,
and then we have a fan poll that you can check out. Go to
NBA Underscore Math on Twitter, and we're going to have those polls out there
so you can have your input in all of these rankings. And then Adam
consolidates those together and we have our composite pecking order. So who starts us
off at number ten Adam. Number ten in our composite rankings is Marcus Morris
Senior. He was number eight in the fan vote. He did not make
either of our top tens. He was he was in consideration for that ten
spot because the two seasons that he had earlier in this decade we're pretty solid
ones. I don't know that he'd reached the level that he did with the
New York Knicks and the Los Angeles Clippers lately. And I'm curious if you
gave him any consideration for your tenth spot. Mine went to Ish Smith,
yours went to Reggie Bullock. But I would imagine we both considered each other's
choices, because I certainly did with Bullock. Look, Ish Smith was there
for me. Marcus Morris was there for me. I even I even considered
Will buying him for a hot minute. Lanks and Galloway, I was all
over the place. Kyles Oliver and Jerebko were really close for me too,
I didn't really give I didn't give Jerebko even a modicum of consideration. I
did look at Anthony Tolliver for a hot second, but neither of those two
were really serious ones for me. So I get Marcus Morris finishing tenth like
he was solid during those two seasons, but he was not really the shooter
that he ended up kind of becoming in Boston, and that he definitely wasn't
having the season he had in New York this past year before he was traded
to the Clippers and his efficiency fell off a cliff. What's always really been
interesting with him is he's one of those guys where I'm not so sure that
he can thrive as that pure, complimentary scorer. And I say I always
say this because it's weird to me in those roles Theoretically you should be getting
easier shots. I just always look at off ball shots as the easier,
higher quality shots, and I'm sure that's not the I'm sure I'm sure that
doesn't happen everywhere, and that's not correct in every instance. But that's what's
always fascinated him with me, is that in New York this season would be
a good example, he was just free to really dominate the ball and go
at it. Now you go to Los Angeles where seventy five plus percent of
his baskets are coming off assist and he's just really not as efficient. I'm
sure there's like a rhythm thing to it, and there's value in having a
guy like that who was so comfortable working with the ball in his hands and
so he was solid and in consideration, I just I don't know if maybe
some people are conflating him with the Marcus Morris that he became again in Boston
as more of an efficient three point shooter, and then just watching what he
did this year in New York, I feel like there might be a little
bit of bias baked in there. Yeah, I think that that's my guests
as well. I don't remember Morris in Detroit being as solid and all around
defender. I don't think that he was quite as strong as he has been
these last couple of seasons, which has enabled him to body up more against
bigger front court players and spend more time at power forward and center in some
small ball lineups. And to me, like his tenure in Detroit was kind
of the poor man's version of what we've seen these last couple of seasons across
the board. And that's what made it hard for him to work into my
top ten, because he wasn't the shooter, he wasn't the versatile offensive option,
he wasn't the switchable defender. He was good in those areas, but
he wasn't as good as he is now. Reggie Bullock at number ten for
me, though, I wouldn't say it was a no brainer. We obviously
just went through that. But he kind of just typified a a mid end
three and D guy and could be just a difference maker because you can put
him on a couple of different positions on defense and he could count on him
to knock down open looks from three, and then he had sort of the
straight line drive to his game as well. And then when you just look
at you know, there weren't a ton of players that had a tenure in
Detroit, like a long tenure in Detroit during this time. So if you
have someone who's gonna rank, you know, still top twenty in minutes played,
but he's not in the top fifteen, I think I had enough juice
to throw him in the top ten. Yeah, I don't hate that selection
at all. For me, it was Smith, and it might have just
been a little bit of a personal bias, because I enjoy the kind of
way that he plays, just the jitterbug point guard who is working to maximize
more of the limited physical skills that he has, but never really stood out
in any way. He's tenth and minutes played for Detroit over the decade,
so there's not like a strong case for inclusion. But I don't really think
there is a strong case for exclusion either. Who came in at number nine.
At number nine, we have Brandon Jennings, which is sure to be
a little bit controversial. He was seventh from the fans, He was ninth
from me. He did not appear on yours. You had Luke Kenard at
in your ninth spot. Yeah, I just I don't associate Brandon Jennings with
the Pistons at all. He was fourteenth in wind shares during this time,
and I actually did not know that he played when I first went about this.
I didn't realize he played so close to one hundred and fifty games with
them. But his time in Detroit just seems so wildly unspectacular, and perhaps
you could say that about what happened in Milwaukee, and then we have to
talk about you know, the injury is part of that, but you know,
if he had been able to piece together like a little bit more of
an efficient run there, maybe And I can't say I hate it because again
there are so many fringe guys on this list, but he really I gave
more consideration to Ish Schmith than I did to Brandon Jennon. Brandon Jennings.
Yeah, I wanted to give credit for the scoring ability that Jennings always had
and wasn't inefficient, sure, but given the lack of talent around him,
like it was one of those situations where maybe it had to be a little
bit because someone had to take those shots. And he was a good tough
shot maker and a very good tough shot taker and that's not always the balance
of skills that you want, but again, like someone had to fill that
role. Also, he and Erison Eliosilver were traded to Orlando to get to
Bias Harris, who has yet to show up in our rankings, And there's
something to be said for that, because he was still young enough and still
had enough potential as an offensive weapon that there was there was some value there
and his trade stock hadn't completely plummeted like it has in recent seasons. Did
you I had Lucanard at number nine? Did he even mak your list at
all? He didn't. He was in consideration and probably would have made it
had he stayed healthy this season, just because I really do believe in the
trajectory that he's that he's been on recently, that shot is so pure.
He seems to have a pretty high offensive ceiling. But the vereness factor just
hasn't been there yet for me, right, And there's you know, even
though he's been there that the injuries I totally understand, and knee tendon nitis
is kind of scary. And then you're talking about he's only been there.
This was his third season and he didn't even play in in thirty games.
But just what he's kind of shown, I felt like his roles should have
been expanded before this season, Like certainly as a sophomore, he has more
of just a pull up jumper to his game than they allowed him to explore
this season, and he's really made strides as a playmaker. They kind of
dabbled with it over his first two years and maybe a little bit more as
a sophomore, letting him run pick and roll, but he was pretty good
in those situations this year. And if you can just have a guy who's
gonna shoot thirty nine from three like clockwork, no matter the types of shots
that they are from three, and I know that his volume isn't necessarily super
high. We're looking at around uh six three point attempts per thirty six minutes
for his career. That's not that's not nothing. And so to have that
reliability there, I was. I was really fascinated in just the type of
season he was going to end up having before the knee tend to night is
kicked in. You know, almost sixteen points four sis per game on fifty
nine true shooting. That's absolutely legitimate. And again he was handling the ball
a lot more than he had in years pass. And then you look at
his you look at his shot profile, and maybe he could stand to cut
out some of the you know, the in between looks because it just doesn't
get to the rim a ton. His game stalls out before there. But
he takes so many threes and hits them at such a high clip that that's
really almost doesn't even matter, and so I don't think he's ever going to
be someone that you necessarily want to have as your second or maybe even third
best player on a team. But he feels like he can be one of
those just like really good, really compatible role players where we're not going to
put them in that fringe star conversation, but he's going to be that directly
tier below. Again, we're talking about health pending, because whenever we see
knee injuries and particularly tendonitis in someone so young, that's definitely a red flag.
So I actually disagree a little bit. I think his ceiling is a
bit higher than you have it. I do think that I would be comfortable
with him growing into a second or third option and just being such a good
shooter that he could justify that even if he's not a great defender. He's
not creating for himself as much and he doesn't finish plays around the rim.
And I've been excited about his future, especially this year, which means that
inevitably the Pistons will trade him. I'm laughing because you said that, but
also because my dog is going ballistic. But yeah, when I saw that
they were thinking about trading him leading up to the trade deadline that was from
which I believe I was a little bit taken aback, but it kind of
makes sense because it's extension eligible and now we're dealing with the injuries. I
would think if you can get him, I don't know what the cost would
be at this point, But had it been this draft, would you've given
up? Would you've given up a lottery pick for Lucanard? This? Absolutely?
I think I would a question, without question. There's I think there's
an argument to be had about the protections. Would you give up a top
ten pick for him? I think I would lean toward yes, But just
knowing how bad this draft is, I think certainly. I mean, I'm
excited for when, like the Lakers trade Kuzma for him or something. He
is he's better than Kyle Kuzma. I don't know who is the year this,
but Luca art is better than Kyle Kuzma. I think what really the
conversation I think is interesting is, you know, maybe I went a little
bit overboard by saying he can't be your number three, But you know we're
talking about the Nets can hold out hope that maybe Caris LeVert becomes their sort
of third wheel to having two stars. Luca Nard could be a similar type
of player that role, not the same type of game, and he might
even be better than Caris Lavert right now. His offense is certainly more efficient.
I just don't think he's shouldered as much as a from scratchburden to this
point. That's not a comparison I thought that I'd be making during Yeah,
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your online wagering experts, which means that I think it's time for you to
take us to number eight. So a number eight, we have Rodney Stuckey.
He was tenth from the fans, he was seventh for me, and
he was eighth for you. So kind of all over the place there,
but at least we all all three sets did have him within the top ten.
And for me, he was like the embodiment of are in his concept
for this franchise, where nothing that he did in Detroit was spectacular. He
was never a shooter, he never fancied himself a shooter. He was instead
just kind of that that steady combo guard who could fill multiple roles, who
was a decent facilitator and avoided mistakes and was just kind of there stuck.
Stucky is actually fiften minutes played for the franchise over the last decade, which
definitely matters when we've seen so few people have long ten years in Detroit over
the last ten years. And I'm not sure that I have too many more
positives to say about him right now. There's not much I can add.
It is. Look, he could, he could score. He put points
on the board. But there's if you just remember, there's a moment in
time, maybe like a span of one or two years, and I think
only one of which would really overlap with the period we're talking about. Maybe
in twenty ten, twenty eleven, he was still viewed in this vein,
but it looked like the Pistons were trying to treat him as this like cornerstone
that they were going to rebuild around, and that was just a massive overexaggeration
of the type of player that he actually was. But between you know,
him being able to get points does have a couple of good years to sprinkle
in there, and then you know, just relative to the rest of the
field, his there andess factor is through the roof here. And she said
he's fifth ten minutes played. So there's not really much I can add.
I honestly, before we even started doing research for this, like, he's
just one of those players that, yes, you knew who he was and
you remember him, but it just I hadn't thought about Rodney Stucking in quite
some time. I think the most fitting tribute to Rodney Stucky would just be
to move on to number seven here. No, that's too efficient, we
need to keep going. I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm gonna reveal that
at number seven we have Tayshaun Prince, who was a bit of a tricky
one to rank, just because he spent so much time in Detroit that it
was preceding the decade that we're looking at. So we only have the last
two and a half seasons of his time with the Pistons, and at that
point he'd already devolved. He wasn't he was still a role player on offense
who could put up some points, who could put up some some assists.
He wasn't quite the rangey defender that he was in his prime. And I
think it's telling that his Pistons tenure ended in a three team trade with the
Memphis Grizzlies and Toronto Raptors, in which Detroit sent him an Austin day to
Memphis and only got back Jose called her own. So the fans had Tayshawn
Prince at nine. I had him at eight. You had him at seven.
So as the highest on Prince, I'm curious if you have more positive
things to say about him. Look, I mean, so during this band
that we're looking at, he's still shot thirty seven point four percent from three
not exactly a shining true shooting percentage sub fifty there, and so he could
still do that. I was just impressed that he ranked sixen minutes played during
this decade, because, like you, I'm just associating him with the teams
before this, and so I think I underestimated how long that Tashan Prince was
in Detroit, and so the Birness factor really really swung me there. And
look, I'm probably giving him a bump because of his legacy in Detroit,
and I'm honestly not going to apologize for that. I don't think you should.
I don't think you need to at all. Is he one of the
if we're talking macro conversations, he one of the more underrated players in NBA
history. I don't think so, just because I feel like he gets a
lot of credit and deserves that credit for his role on that title winning Pistons
team and the early part of his career with the franchise. I think he's
still associated with those teams, and you know he was He was never an
All Star. He never should have been an All Star. He was an
All defensive player, and I think he's recognized as such. I don't I
don't know that I would really classify him as a guy that doesn't get love
that he deserves. Yeah, I'm just wondering if people just forget how good
he was defensively. I will say it does seem like he gets more public
shine than Sean Marion, one of the most just underappreciated players that the NBA
has ever seen. So if we want to use that as a gage,
then notation Prince is probably properly rated. But you know who's not one of
the most underrated players is Cantavious Caldwell Pope, who checks it at number six
for us. He was number six to the fans. He was number six
for me, he was number five for you. His career has been weird.
It's just been really strange, like both his time in Detroit and his
time with the Lakers, where it always feels like they're shopping him and he
might go, but he's not going to. And then he somehow has a
no trade clause and he shoots just well enough to like keep hope alive that
he's going to develop into this three and d asset, but then he follows
that up with a poor shooting season and like he was there, he played
tough defense, against a lot of wings. He made some big shots,
but I don't know. His career has just confused me, even dating back
to his time at Georgia, where he was surrounded by just a complete lack
of talent, and we couldn't figure out if his low shooting percentages were because
opponents could focus on him so much, or if his shot wasn't as good
as we thought it might be. It's like this, The conundrum has followed
him at every one of his locations so far. Yeah, I missed on
KCP. I remember having arguments on Twitter because I thought it was Blastmith that
the Knicks gave Tim Hardaway Junior four years and I think seventy million dollars at
the time, which was still not a great deal given what the market was.
Maybe that wasn't twenty that was twenty seventeen, excuse me. And then
Contavious Carlo Pope, I think ended up getting like a shorter term deal with
he signed what he signed, He signed like a shorter term deal with the
Lakers, excuse me. And so I was just arguing that he was miles
better than Tim Hardaway Junior, and I there's a part of me that would
still rather have KCP on my team than Tim Hardaway Junior, even given how
good THHJ has been this season in Dallas. But everything you said, I'm
in total agreement with it helped this season. It doesn't help these rankings,
but he's probably been the lakers second most consistent shooter this year. That's probably
not a good situation to be in if you're them. Though. What I
did always respect about him is that he was he's kind of maybe his defensive
reputation was just overblown, but he always did work on that end of the
floor, and he kind of had some tertiary playmaking to his game while he
was in Detroit, particularly towards the end of that tenure, and that's ultimately
would help me become so high on him. But again, he's just one
of the players that completely missed on. I probably gave him too much credit
thinking that his efficiency would would sort of stabilize, and he's you know,
unless you're going to be on a team with the Lakers where you have one
of the best playmakers and then be a history setting you up like you know,
you're probably not going to be as efficient inside the arc as a play
finisher. But still someone who if you can deal with his transition heat checks,
which I'm willing to deal with, He's still an impactful player. And
I think I don't know. Had he signed it was five year, eighty
million dollars deal with Detroit, which would still be going on, we'd be
in his third season, it probably would be remembered as a bad contract,
but there would have been worse ones given out over that time. And that's
perhaps one of the biggest compliments that I can give. Yeah, And I
think the other biggest compliment is is our thereness factor where he's third and minutes
played for the franchise over the last decade. And I don't know if that's
impressive by him or sad by the front office, but it's it's a thing
either way. Yeah, I mean he always he did, like during his
two final seasons in Detroit, just played a ton of minutes. And so
there was a guy who, yeah, his defensive workload was fairly heavy and
to play that many minutes. He was at thirty seven in twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, and then thirty three plus in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, and
he's his availability hasn't really been a problem, except for when he was under
that work prison arrangement with the Lakers. Like he's always his theirness has been
like one of his biggest attributes. So go ahead, I was gonna say,
I'm comfortable putting him. I had him a little higher than six.
I had him fifth, and I'm comfortable putting him there. I was gonna
say one of the things that I associate most with his time in Detroit.
I'm not sure how how cleaning the glass classifies him, but I remember the
Basketball Reference had one hundred percent of his minutes coming at the two for each
of his last two seasons in Detroit. We just just unique. I don't
think in this age of malleability and small ball lineups that we see guys who
are so obviously pigeonholed into one specific position. But he was like he was
never the primary ball handler. He always played with an actual point guard,
and he was always the smaller of the wings. Yeah, I mean,
you very really have a one position player, particularly when you're talking about perimeter
players, like you get like centers and then even like some power forwards where
it's where it's like Jabari Parker is clearly just a four, like he can't
be a three. He definitely can't be a five. He's just a four.
So it's very rarely that you see like these, and I guess point
guards can pretty much be one position players. But but yeah, that is
really something interesting, and that's part of what made me so high on him
is I thought that he was going to continue to improve as as a setup
man and that that leap was just never made. It was not number five.
We're up to. Number five is Reggie Jackson. He was number five
for the fans, He was number five for me, and he was number
four for you. And I feel like we can probably agree that we thought
he was going to be higher at some point, and I'm not sure when
that point was, if it was when Detroit acquired him from Oklahoma City and
he was still coming off those successful seasons as a sixth man, or the
season after that when he showed that he could be more of an offensive focal
point before the knee injuries kind of sapped some of the athleticism and forced him
into a bit of a premature decline. But he's he did not live up
to the expectations in Detroit, but he wasn't bad either. Do you think
that's a fair way to put it. Yeah, I mean twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, Reggie Jackson, his first full season in Detroit was ridiculously good.
Yeah, and there was there was just a time where, like the
pick and rolls with Andre between he Andrew Jummond, it was just straight up
money. And we're saying that when Detroit didn't always have the most pristine spacing
around them. And so there's probably a chance that you know, I don't
know how much higher he could have gotten looking at the players in front of
him. Never would have surpassed who I think will be the consensus number one,
but he probably could have been top three or top two if he ended
up staying healthy. It was just availability became just this huge problem for him
after that first full season in Detroit. You know, missed thirty games in
twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, missed thirty seven games in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen.
I did not know that he played in all eighty two last year in
twenty eighteen twenty nineteen. So but just by that point you're in a smaller
role. You know, his three point percentage of the past two seasons in
Detroit. Before he was bought out, he had only made fourteen appearances with
the Pistons this year. Like, I guess that kind of stabilized a little
bit, and I do think he was probably a better set shooter then he
was ever given credit for it, but he took definitely questionable shots when he
was on ball, and he just never seemed to provide that offensive steadiness again
beyond really that first season and there if you look at some of the metrics
too, though when he was on the floor, a lot of these times
their offenses could be be better, and he's probably the closest they've come,
aside from Derek Rose during his Jackson's period in Detroit, to having that type
of offensive just facilitator, someone who can really command the entire floor, but
sort of a I don't even know if is this a tenure of missed opportunity
for him? Is there a level of what if given the injuries, or
do you just think he was always overburdened with expectations when they signed him to
that deal where they kind of just looked at him and said, you are
our franchise point guard. I think it was overburdening and I'm not even sure
that when he signed that deal, there was the expectation that he was going
to be a franchise point guard. Maybe maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel
like he was never going to be a franchise savior so much as a crucial
piece next to Drummond and the other pieces that they already had there. But
that said, like and granted, this is only a forty four win season
where they got swept in the first round, but I do think it's telling
that his best season that twenty fifteen sixteen, that twenty fifteen sixteen campaign was
the one that led to Detroit's best season of the decade. It was clear
that he elevated their ceiling when he was healthy, when he was at his
peak level, but I think it's also telling how limited that ceiling still was.
I'm with you who checks in at number four. At number four,
we have Blake Griffin, who was second from the fans. He was third
for me, and he was down in sixth for you. He was the
player I had the most trouble ranking. I don't know if you felt the
same way, but it's just because the highs and the lows of his very
brief time in Detroit are so so polar opposites. He's only eighteenth and minutes
played for the decade because he was acquired towards the end of that twenty seventeen
eighteen season. Then his twenty eighteen nineteen year was just absolutely brilliant. I
think you can make an argument that it's the best season by a Piston maybe
since prime Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billips. Maybe you want to go even further
back than that. But then he was a disaster this season for eighteen games
before he was shut down with those knee injuries, and now his contract is
problematic and it's unclear whether he's ever going to return to a quality level,
much less in all star level. Yeah, there was a tug of war
here for me, just because it's how much do you wait that twenty eighteen
twenty nineteen season. I think you can wait in heavily because this man was
playing on like one leg in the playoffs. I know they were swept,
but the fact that he played through that, I think it absolutely counts for
something. And it's unfortunate that he really just doesn't seem like he ever fully
recovered, and so he ends up getting shut down for the rest of this
year. But twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, Blake Griffin was absurd. And
here's what I wrote this over the summer when I ranked him as the seventeenth
best player in the NBA at the time and we were assuming full health.
That year, Griffin ran more pick and rolls per game than Eric Bledsoe.
He hit more pull up threes than rookie Trey Young, and if you're not
impressed by him out voluming a rookie, he also drained more pull up threes
all but seven players in the league. He finished in isolation about as frequently
as Paul George, Kyrie, Irving, Zach Lavine, and Damian Lillard.
And he assisted on a higher percentage of his team's basket winning the game than
Stephen Curry. Just yeah, absolutely, I mean absolute stud that year.
So I think it was I would have if if I had more guts,
maybe I would have put him higher, because I know you did. I
had him at six, which is why I didn't mentioned him before, so
I knew we were going to get to him. But the fact that he
could be put in six after really having like what do you want to say,
like a season and a third of a case that's probably both telltale of
the Piston situation but also how really ridiculously good he was last year twenty eighteen
nineteen, for me, was what we wanted Blake Griffin to become from the
beginning when he entered the league out of Oklahoma as just this uber athletic dunk
bot who didn't have any sort of perimeter game but clearly wanted to develop that.
He hadn't become a great facilitator, but he wanted to become that.
You could tell by the passes he was trying to make and the role he
was trying to fill on those Clippers teams next to Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan.
But he wasn't there yet. And that year with Detroit everything came together.
The jumper connected, as you mentioned, with those pull up threes.
He became a reliable source for initiating the offense from anywhere on the court,
whether it was running a transition opportunity or running a pick and roll, or
once a play broke down within the half court, he could bail them out
by creating for himself and by creating for his teammates. It was like the
evolutionary version of Blake Griffin that we wanted to see for so long, and
it was so rewarding when that came together. And it's also just it's so
it's so unfortunate that it lasted for such a short duration. Yeah, I'm
with you, And I mean, he just he got an opportunity that he
never really had with the Clippers until Chris Paul left and then he was just
there like for so short a time without CP three that this was really I
feel like the first opportunity he had at turning into that player. And look,
he has two years left on his deal. It's obviously not a good
deal at this point, but if he gets healthy, he can still be
an impactful player. I don't think that if you're the Pistons and you're trying
to rebuild, yes, that certainly complicates things, but he's still I do
think at full strength, he's still someone that almost on his own, can
help you punch a playoff ticket. Plus he's just easy to root for.
I mean, the guy plays his butt off. He's tried to play through
injuries. He's a really funny guy, and he's good at being funny.
He's socially aware, he tries to do what's right for his community. Like
Griffin just to me from the start really has been a guy who's just he's
It's very easy to want to see him succeed. And it's not just because
of the masgobbing and dunking all over everyone, even though that's part of it.
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root for, comes in and checks in at number three. You are correct,
it's Tobias Harris, who was number four for the fans, number four
for me, and up at number two for you. Just that he'd probably
I recognize that he just wasn't there. He spent I don't even think he
was there for two full seasons. Yeah mid season yeah, yeah, so
but just a buckets getter. And that's where it really became clear that,
oh he's legitimately good. And he helped him get Blake Griffin, who I
don't think anyone necessarily was in favor of that trend at the time, but
they he was a key piece in them getting someone who's a superstar. But
as a scorer, I think he's probably been overtaxed in certain situations, like
he can't shoulder the burden that Jimmy Butler can. There's his game kind of
stalls out where Butler if he doesn't even doesn't if he doesn't have his efficiency
from the perimeter, like he's just going to get to the line in gobs
and that's never been to Buias Harris's style and do you trust him and crunch
time to be your face up weapon going downhill. But he can hit pull
up jumpers. He's turned into a pretty good three point shooter. He's turned
into someone who's not so much of a ball stopper. He can play the
three or the four. I definitely like to see him play. I prefer
him at the four personally and sort of have that well rounded scoring to be
relatively efficient. During his time in Detroit while he did it, and the
context being this is when it was he okay, it was like kind of
cute what he was doing in Orlando, but it was while he was in
Detroit where it was all of a sudden became clear, like, oh,
he's really really good, and so shout out to the Box for trading him,
trading to him, trading him to Orlando in the first place. But
so I'm probably maybe I'm overrating his entire NBA career in this, but he
was just so good in the time that he was with Detroit that I don't
I didn't feel like it was too much of a stretch to put him in
that number two spot for me. The three things that I associate most with
Tobias Harris are the bromance with bobon Marianovitch, which is fantastic and should be
promoted at every stop and every opportunity. Two is the constant improvement, just
dating back to that rookie season with Milwaukee and then his sophomore season where he
was sent to Orlando, and then his time in Orlando, and his time
in Detroit, and then the start of his time with the Clippers, and
maybe even a little bit of his time with Philadelphia, Like he's just consistently
gotten better and unlocked more pieces of his game and become one of those all
around weapons who just has such an amorphous identity that he can fill any any
role that needs to be filled. And then the third thing is just like
how is a guy this this good and valuable on the offensive end, especially
been traded so frequently? Right now, it makes sense because he's gonna be
on the five year or one eighty million dollars deal, But before this to
have been all right, clearly overlooked, like in Milwaukee, but in Orlando,
good, Detroit, good Los Angeles, really good fringe all star that
in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, before he was then traded to Philly.
Again, Just who's the last player that was this good, like in real
time, not someone who was traded after his prime, but that was this
good that was moved so damn often. I have no answers. And it
even goes beyond that, because he was moved twice as a draft pick too,
so I don't know that we really get to include those in the career
transaction. But the New Orleans Hornets traded the twenty eleven first round pick that
was used to get him to the Portland Trail Blazers to acquire Jared Bayless,
and then the Blazers moved him with Dante Cunningham, Shawn Marks, the Vanilla
guerrilla who keeps making appearance in these podcasts somehow, and a first round Because
you haven't for Gerald Wallace, I do. I'm trying to mention him at
every opportunity. But yeah, I mean, before he landed in Charlotte,
which then traded him to Milwaukee before he'd even played a game, he'd been
traded three times. It's crazy that two of those, like he was traded
before he was even just like his draft was there like twice. That's what's
just great. It's like as a future draft pick, traded twice, which
is pretty apropo for what's happened during his career. Twice as a future draft
pick, once on the day of the draft, and then four times since
he started playing. That's ridiculous. I don't have I don't I don't know
if there's a quick way to dig through transaction history and figure out if that's
a record for a guy playing at his level. But let's just go ahead
and say definitively that it is. Tobias Harris is the most traded good player
ever. Like picture if Luke Ridnour was actually good. Yeah, exactly,
although he gets traded like in the same day basically, So that's like Luke
Ridnour is the goat of trading who comes in at number two. At number
two, we have Greg Monroe, who was second for me, and he
was third for both you and the fans. I struggled with with Monroe,
Griffin and Tobias Harris. I felt like I could have had them in any
order, just depending on whether we were valuing peak level reached, the valuable
contributions to the franchise, the bareness factors. You know, Monroe never became
an All Star for the Pistons, but he was a reliable interior scorer right
as that role was starting to be phased out. If he'd come around a
decade earlier, like he would have been really good and very valuable, like
almost an Al Jefferson kind of player, where he had a lot of post
of moves, He had soft touch around the basket. He had some ambidexterity
with his face up and post moves, but it didn't work next to Andre
Drummond. It didn't work when they tried to go super big, and he
never elevated this team into into a unit that any organization in the Eastern Conference
was going to fear if they managed to make it to the playoffs. Yeah.
Just I mean, the thing I like most about DeAndre Eton Senior is
that he was super crappy with his footwork when he was just on sort of
the block, and he became he turned into ficial nickname. Right. Yeah,
I'm waiting to see if you would acknowledge that at all. But he
turned into like a pretty serviceable playmaker as he got towards the middle of his
career. I would just like to remind you, like gregman Row was only
twenty nine. Like you talk about, just how much a smack you in
the face dose of reality. His career arc became because he was such this
He was such a sought after free agent in twenty fifteen. The game has
just evolved so fast, and he was one of those guys who never really
had too much of a jumper. I'm not trying to insult DeAndre Ayton here.
Gray Monroe first all on his prime, which is weird to say because
he's only twenty nine, but he was. He was really good, So
it's not actually that much of an insult. It's just it's interesting to think
that at one point, and maybe it was never really a debate within Detroit
because it seemed pretty clearly that they favored Drummond, but there was like a
nationally it was a do you keep Monroe or Drummond type thing, like that's
how good he was. Yeah, So I honestly respect a career that he
was able to carve out. He's probably definitely someone that wishes he signed more
than a two plus one in twenty fifteen, and I'm sure that those deals
were on the table for him at the time. I do wonder what would
have happened had he been with the team, or had Detroit maybe just surrounded
him with more spacing in general, because the fact that him and Drummond were
tasked with playing together at all during their time in Detroit, like that's borderline
functional malpractice. Even you know, we're talking about much earlier in this decade.
Even still that was that was just really kind of shrinking you're spacing by
a huge margin. I feel like it could have worked had the timeline been
a little bit different because recent Andre Drummond has been able to operate from the
perimeter as a ball handler and as a secondary facilitator a little more like it's
still not really where you want him on the court, But I think that
partnership could have been a little bit more successful had we seen the more evolved
version of Drummond next to the interior score that was Monroe. But we just
didn't get a chance to. And I mean, look, they basically they
tested out for like two seasons basically right before he was kind of yeah,
yeah, whether you tried to stagger them a little bit or no, was
basically his final two seasons. I feel like that was what it was.
And also he's I think the only player who just signed the qualifying offer instead
of going into researched free agency. Just for Nick Sands who were so concerned
that Christosporzingis was actually going to leave of his own volition it at some point
he was never going to sign that qualify offer and coming off an ACL injury.
Fun on little side note there, But well, I remember at the
time because I believe I wrote about this when it happened, like we thought
that it might be the beginning of a trend where players were betting on themselves
a little bit more, but that that just never developed into anything, probably
because I didn't work out so well for him, you know, much A
damn shame at Chris Middleton never got the opportunity to be on this list.
That might be considered trolling, but yeah, I mean, at this point,
like we've already trolled it off just by talking about the last decade for
the Pistons. Who is number one? The suspense is freaking killing me.
I know, it's it's a it's Andre Drummond. I'm sorry to spoil it
with no drum roll or anything, but you know, he was number one
for you, he was number one for me. He was number one on
all but one of the fan ballots that were submitted, and I don't think
there's any doubt, which means that it's time for the once a podcast trivia
question for Dan, where I see how embarrassed he's going to get when he
doesn't know the correct answer. Are you ready? I'm absolutely not ready,
which means fire away. Where is Andre Drummond in Piston's history and career?
Wind chairs? And who's number one? Oh my god, I have no
idea where he would be for his career. Let's say, let's say five.
How oft am I there? You're off by two spots? Is he
seven or three? Seven? Okay, you guessed Chauncey Billips's spot. Shout
out Chauncy Billips, mister big shot? Who is number one? Is this
an obvious answer? I'm going to kick myself when I miss it. Nope,
all right, so at least I don't have to pick Isaiah time.
I forgot that I had to say something because I was shaking my head.
But obviously our listeners can't hear that. It's Notah Thomas is fourth. It's
not Mellow because they didn't draft him. I'm just trying to stall by taking
thoughts out of the organization. It's not Darko. Is it ben Wallace?
It is not Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace is sixth. Is it Dumars?
It is not Dumars. Du Mars is third. But you're moving in the
right direction. Lambier, Lambier is number one, Okay, that's not like
not obvious. Yeah, he's spent a lot of time there, Yeah,
and played on a lot of good teams. But yeah, he has ninety
eight point four winchares with the Pistons. Second place is Bob Lanier at ninety
one point six. Joe Dumars is third at eighty six point two, Isaiah
Thomas at eighty point seven, Billips at seventy three six, Wallace at sixty
five nine, and Drummond has sixty point four. But r Andre Drummond.
It's so crazy. He's just another example of how quickly the NBA has changed,
because now it doesn't even feel like there's room for these pure fives,
like guys who can work as a as a room roller. And he's probably
not the most switchable on the defensive end, like him being on the floor,
I know he's had pretty poor guard play around him, which certainly hurts
over this time, but it's never just guaranteed you even in okay defense,
Still to think about the numbers he puts up and then see that the Pistons
traded him for two expiring con tracks and a less favorable twenty twenty three second
pick. I mean the answers they gave him away, right, that's what
you're trying to say. Yeah, it's well, it's just still less favorable.
Second. You couldn't even get the more favorable of the Cleveland Golden State
pick in twenty twenty three. I mean, yeah, this is this is
a twenty six year old who has a legitimate argument to be known as the
best rebounder in NBA history. I'm not saying he is okay, but like,
if you want to put him up there with Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain,
Dennis Rodman, West Unselled, like those guys like you can do that.
I believe that. I believe that Drummond is the all time leader in
total rebound percentage. He's just not playing in an era with as many missshots
are operating as quickly as as the league did in the sixties and seventies.
But he's he's got to be up there in that conversation and that's a valuable
skill. But the NBA has evolved to such an extent that again, a
twenty six year old who is at least in that conversation in an important area
of the game was given away at the trade deadline. And what probably really
hurt him, even like before this transition started happening, is it's really tough
unless you're Rudy Gobert on defense, which he is not. It's really tough
to build around a big who doesn't have the playmaking post game and he had
there was he was his assists skyrocketed before the Blake Griffin trade like it was
there for Blake Griffin trade really held him back right and there to see Andre
Drummond like randomly leading fast breaks like that was kind of cool. What's interesting,
though, is so he has this maybe this is two current eventsy,
but it's I think it ties into the conversation we're having, is that he
has a player option for this summer for twenty eight point eight million dollars and
I have no doubt my mind that he's going to pick it up. Now.
How many years, though, would it take him to recoup that recoup
that money in his next contract. I mean, I don't think that he
would get anything more than like a four year million and four year contract with
like twelve million and annual average value. So we're on the same page.
I think it would take at least three seasons for him to get that all
that money back. And that's just another harbinger of how quickly and how starkly
the NBA has changed, Right, And we're not talking about a guy who
like accepted that he has limitations and hasn't worked to improve his game. Like
he's tried to take a few more jumpers. He's shown that, especially before
Griffin came, that he could lead fast breaks, that he could serve as
a secondary hub on on half court sets. He's improved his free throw shooting
dramatically. I mean, to the point that he went from one of the
worst free throw shooters ever to making above sixty percent of his freebees for his
season. Like, this is a guy who's who's young and has shown that
he has that work ethic, that he's immensely valuable, that he's durable,
which cannot be taken for granted when you play such a physical, bruising role
and it just doesn't matter. And I also think, like as a quick
aside, like I hope that people will understand that we're talking about more overarching
Andre Drummond things, because we have no need to justify that he's number one
in the last decade. Yeah, I don't know who you would put when
it's these no brainers. There's there's no there's no like Dark and Dallas,
Like right, what do you want to talk Lebron in Cleveland? You what
do you want to Maybe maybe Griffin had a better season than Drummonds best season,
but like it was one compared to Drummond, who's been there for almost
the entire decade. It's it's almost kind of incredible that his defensive rebounding rate
is what it is, just considering how inconsistent his motor has been on that
end of the floor for basically his entire career. Two and so, I
don't I think there's a case maybe that maybe there was a better player in
there that he never really tapped into. But like he said, he did
change his game and now we I think we might even be overselling how much
change he made on the offensive end personally, But like he's he has tried
different things, and it's just it's never really panned out. Part of that,
again, is just the personnel that Detroit had around him during this stretch.
But I do think that to expect him to be your best player,
your primary building block that would it is probably something he was he was never
going to be. Still that player is is an All Star, multi time
All Star, and he was. He was an All Star in twenty eighteen.
This isn't even that he's twenty six. He was an All Star in
twenty eighteen. I feel like we're talking about him like he just retires,
right, And I don't. Maybe I am over selling the offensive changes,
but I think part of the reason why is that we we saw what he
was becoming, what he was trying to become, right before the Blake Griffin
trade. And I don't think that Detroit needs to regret that trade, despite
the albatross that is currently on their books, just because that twenty eighteen nineteen
season was special enough to justify trading for him. But what might Drummond have
become if they had instead allowed him to continue going through the growing pains and
evolving into a different and potentially better player. Yeah, and one of the
things that I'll always remember him for is he has some of the NBA's Harry's
shoulders. He did start saving them at some point because I stopped noticing it
on free throws, but he has some of the NBA's Harry's shoulders, so
shut I'm impressed by your observations there. He also had a short fling with
I Carly's what was it? Oh, yeah, I remember that. I
think is that Maymber getting the actors wrong there? I hope it was like
his second season. Maybe it's been a while, it's been it's been a
minute. Jeanete McCurdy. Yes, So just some fun Andre Drummond trivia if
you were looking for it, and Adam gave you the actual basketball trivia where
he stands in wind shares for the Pistons orver this decade. Who who do
we have some honorable mentions for? I'm gonna read the first name and then
we can talk about him for a second, because it's Derrick Rose. He
was very close to displacing Rodney Stucky for a tenth place on the fans ballot,
and I kind of get it, like I considered him briefly for the
tenth spot on my own ballot, just because the season that he he had
this year, you know, like it was the first time in a while
that we've seen Rose look more like vintage Rose while also accepting some of the
newfound limitations, and it allowed him to become a much more valuable presence in
the backcourt, right And what I really liked it from him this season is
it wasn't just you know, he was hitting his mid rage jumpers, of
course, finishing around the rim fairly well, but he was elevating the play
of his teammate teammates. He was really Detroit's just offensive lifeline for really long
stretches. And Russell Westbrook, Luca Danche and Lebron are the only three players
in the league who assisted on more corner threes this year. And I think
that's just a good barometer for how valuable he was in Detroit, because they
weren't stockpiled with shooters to begin with, and yet he's causing so much chaos
as he gets inside the art that these guys are just so open and he
was able to find them. I actually did not consider him just because of
the whole one season sample size thing, but his season would this year was
damn good. It was so at twelfth on the fan vote. We had
Ish Smith at thirteen, we had Luke Nard at fourteen, Reggie Bullock at
fifteen. Was Christian Wood. My fun Christian sort of fun Christian Wood story
is, you know, he was in the middle of just this fantastic breakout.
I think he's a long term piece there. Right before the season was
suspended because of the coronavirus pandemic. I had the night before everything went haywire
and the season was suspended. I had scheduled a tweet on the NBA math
account showing his roller player rating and how ridiculous it was that he had segmented
seasons because he wasn't staying in the NBA, and then just this steep rise.
Then it came out that he had been tested and was tested positive for
the coronavirus, and I canceled the tweet three minutes before it was sent or
scheduled to be sent. And I'm so glad that I caught it, because
it just it would not have been appropriate to be talking about this guy's rise
while he was dealing with a virus. That's amazing. I was really glad
that I woke up on time to cancel that one. Fun aside, though,
I would have liked to have seen because he was a New Orleans very
briefy last year. I actually would have been interested to see him play sometime
with Zion Williamson had they brought him back. Absolutely, And I feel like
we'd been talking about would as a breakout candidate for a while just because he
showed his bounce in Summer League, and I think it was obvious that you
could see the physical profile there and it just it really came together this year.
Yeah, he is coming together this year. Yeah. Yeah. I
don't know whether we talk about this season in the past tense. How does
that I think we I still think we use I don't think I don't think
we can use the past tense until it's officially canceled. He was very solidly
a top one hundred player this year, I think, absolutely and so and
that's actually really commendable because it took dwyn Casey so long to not play Thawnmaker
over him, and then he wasn't insurgents in the starting line up until after
the Andre Drummond Tree. And speaking of thoughn Maker, I'll continue rolling through
the honorable mentions because he is make it. He did get a vote.
Shout out to the Maker family for participation. So after after fifteen Christian would,
we had will Bind him and Anthony Tolliver were tied for sixteenth. We
had Jonas Jerebko, Brandon Knight, Langston Galloway, and for some unknown reason,
Josh Smith tied for eighteenth place. I'm yeah, I don't know someone
who just like maybe a Bulls fan. It was our June. I bet
it was our June putting Josh Smith. Why is he like director, our
technical director, who's a Bulls fan? And as we know, especially in
this era of the Last Dance, the Bulls and the Pistons don't like each
other. So I'm gonna believe that that was in our June trol, never
mind that we're decades removed from that being relevant. But he wasn't even alive
for it. You know, I'll have to tell him that we talked about
him on this podcast and then make him listen to the whole Pistons thing to
figure out why it's in the middle somewhere and not at the very end exactly.
So behind Josh Smith because he was not tied for last tied for twenty
second, we have say Kudumbuya, we have Bobon Marianovitch, we have Than
Maker, we have Ben Wallace, and we have Charlie Villanueva. All right,
I mean those are I'm just wondering how those names. I'm just wondering
how some of those votes come in when you're just looking at this decade specifically.
Yeah, I mean, at least everyone played for the Pistons this decade.
That has not been the case with some of the teams in the past.
At least vote for Eric Morland, you cowards, right, I mean,
I'm thankful that we didn't get any Isaiah Thomas votes either, Isaiah Thomas
votes. Did Chris Middleton get any votes? That would have been Chris Middleton
did not get any votes, but he probably should have because he's that good.
Do you have anything else to offer on this subject? Oh, let's
please just move on to another franchise. Wow, Adam shitting on the Pistons
more than I did. But I am like, we just had to talk
about the Pistons for an hour. Infinite respect for Pistons fans, though,
Let's make it clear exact stand bases on NBA Twitter if we're giving out superlatives.
I'll say that I think I'm more comfortable shitting on the pistons here just
because, like, I think that the fan base largely accepts that and expects
it and isn't going to come after us vociferously because it's justified. I hope
your mentioned just get blown up at zero nine. Throw cuss words at him,
please, I'm used to it. We'll be back the next time Adam
is back. We will have the Golden State Warriors for you. That should
be a fun one. Yeah. Another franchise that just sucked for the last
decade. Yeah, just absolutely awful. Light years behind, isn't that how
it goes? Yeah? That was a. That was the Joe Lake of
hashtag, was it not? Yea. So we'll be back with them eventually.
We'll also have the Last Dance takeaways, deep dives, you know,
beyond what we watched on TV on Sunday night. Those will continue to come
out as long as the documentary is is running. And I'm saying is realizing
that it's probably gonna come out after that one, so it's dating it a
little bit, but there will still be one installment left of the Last Dance
dock at that point. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe to us
on iTunes. Thank everyone for listening. Until next time, I'll leave you
all with a shout out too, Detroit Pistons Legend Josh Harrelson, from self
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