1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,799 What's up, y'all is Drew Sky and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:08,080 produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewsky. Learn the 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,759 backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,199 a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time? Or no, 5 00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:16,800 was the Raptors even started on the topic? Come on, bro, I 6 00:00:16,879 --> 00:00:21,359 had that tell you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and any 7 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:23,960 more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,039 Drewsky on Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. 9 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:36,640 Hey, this is Megan Rapino and I'm super We've decided to turn our crazy 10 00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:42,159 ig live show into a podcast for your listening pleasure. Enjoy the show A 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,039 touch More. New episodes of A Touch More drop Tuesday only on the Blue 12 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:52,520 Wire Podcast Network. Be sure to subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple, 13 00:00:52,679 --> 00:01:12,439 or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. What It Do Hardwoo Knox listeners, 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,560 I am Dan P. Valley coming at you without Andrew D. Bailly 15 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:21,879 this time. I am, however, pleased to welcome back NBA Math founder, 16 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,480 editor in chief and editor for Bleacher Report Adam Frammel. You can follow 17 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:29,560 him on Twitter at Framo zero nine. And if he's here, you know 18 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:33,640 that means we're getting back to our decade player ranking series for each franchise. 19 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:36,719 We are up to the Detroit Pistons. We are going to get to their 20 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:42,000 top ten players of the past decade just in a minute. Our usual housekeeping 21 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,640 notes, though, please remember to continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to 22 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,280 us on iTunes. That is still the best, most efficient way for you 23 00:01:48,319 --> 00:01:51,719 to help out the podcast. We do appreciate whenever we see those numbers go 24 00:01:51,799 --> 00:01:55,719 up. If you have already rated, reviewed, and subscribe to us on 25 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,959 iTunes or wherever else you're getting your podcast, please word of mouth can help 26 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,760 as well. Retweet our promost for this, tell your friends, family members, 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,480 acquaintances, random random people on social media. It will all be appreciated. 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,280 Follow Hardwood Knox on Twitter at Hardwood Knox. You can follow us on 29 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,759 YouTube as well YouTube dot com search hardwoo Knox. We will pop up subscribe 30 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,080 like our videos. That helps too. You can help us in a lot 31 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,000 of ways. Last, but certainly not least, shout out to our sponsors 32 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:24,000 for this podcast, bet Online, dot ag as always and Blue cho for 33 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:28,639 this podcast. You will be hearing at their promo codes in just a few 34 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,879 minutes, so be sure to use those if you have any interest in their 35 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:35,360 products. Adam, it has been a minute. How are you doing? 36 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,919 You know what, I'm doing pretty good. I'm in a good mood, 37 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,800 and I don't know if that's going to last for the next hour or so 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,520 because, like spoiler alert to the Pistons fans who are listening to this one, 39 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,960 but I have a feeling we're not going to say many good things about 40 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,280 this franchise. Do you know what I like about Pistons fans, though they 41 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:55,680 seem to be really in tune with their turmoil. They understand it, they 42 00:02:55,759 --> 00:02:59,960 recognize it, they acknowledge it. Where I do feel like some fan base 43 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:06,280 get unnecessarily combative, or they have these deluded opinions of how their franchise is 44 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:09,439 still just one step away from from making a huge leap, or maybe that 45 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:13,319 they've done a better job than most people think. And there have been teams 46 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,000 that are worse over the past decade than the Pistons. Shout out New York 47 00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:23,360 Knicks, but I respect the Pistons fans embracing it. And as another quick 48 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,400 housekeeping note, as you might hear in the background, we still do have 49 00:03:27,439 --> 00:03:31,080 new puppies around these parts at the Danfa Valley household. So Thor's with me 50 00:03:31,199 --> 00:03:36,360 right now. He's attempting to break out of his big gass puppy bubble that 51 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,919 I have for him. So if he if he goes rogue, just don't 52 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,800 mind that this is real podcasting. We're not editing out any puppies. We 53 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,840 made that decision before we started. But yeah, shout out, shout out 54 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,400 to Pistons fans, because again, there are fan bases that don't really lean 55 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:53,840 into the problems their franchises have had, and I respect that Pistons fans are 56 00:03:53,879 --> 00:03:57,560 just acutely aware of not just their current situation, but what has happened over 57 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:00,479 the past decade or so. Yeah, and before we dive into the actual 58 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,520 rankings, can we just take a moment to discuss how bad this decade has 59 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,599 been for the Pistons too, because I think it's worth noting before we talk 60 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:12,960 about the players. Is just like the complete lack of team success. We 61 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,920 had won five hundred season last year they went forty four and thirty eight in 62 00:04:15,959 --> 00:04:19,279 twenty fifteen sixteen. That was the high water point. But they have literally 63 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,240 not won a playoff game this entire decade. They made the postseason twice, 64 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,600 they got swept in the first round both times. And I think the highlight 65 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,360 of the entire decade is probably stan Van Gundi telling them to build a fucking 66 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:36,720 wall. And when when a viral moment from a coach in a huddle, 67 00:04:38,199 --> 00:04:43,839 it is probably the most memorable moment of your decade. Not good, No, 68 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,680 I'm with you. They have the end during this stretch between twenty twenty 69 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:50,720 eleven and now they have the twenty third highest winning percentage in the NBA. 70 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:58,480 A cool I would rather be the Charlotte Hornets or something and just be like 71 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,000 as bottomed out as p possible because they have been on that mediocrity treadmill the 72 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:09,560 entire time. Yeah, there there's some there's some rough teams though, in 73 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,560 that stretch of Sacramento, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Knicks, Orlando, the 74 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:15,120 Nets, the Hornets, there's definitely case be made that I feel like the 75 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:21,040 Pistons situation this past decade is worth worse than that win percentage. Just reflect 76 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,160 Yeah, I just I look at like the division finishes, and they've been 77 00:05:25,639 --> 00:05:29,279 third or fourth out of five teams in the division all but two seasons, 78 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:32,639 and during their two last place division finishes, one in twenty seventeen one in 79 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:36,040 twenty fifteen, they won thirty seven and thirty two games. So it's not 80 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:41,120 like they were bottoming out with respect to the entire NBA and getting a top 81 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:46,199 draft pick like they've They've never been the worst. They've just been consistently bad, 82 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,160 and that that's not where you want to be. I'm sorry, Pistons 83 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:50,439 fans. We're not trying to hate. We're more trying to commiserate with you 84 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,000 because we have to talk about them now. Yeah, and some of it 85 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,439 is bad timing or beyond their control. I don't know if you should have 86 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,079 ever given out that Reggie Jackson contract, John Wall where Jill Josh Smith one 87 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,519 was inexcusable, but Reggie Jackson was just good when he was healthy was then 88 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,519 never healthy. They also invested in Andre Drummond at a time when he would 89 00:06:10,519 --> 00:06:14,639 have commanded that contract probably had he reached the open market. But yet now 90 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:18,560 is when the idea of rebuilding around a big man who doesn't really do a 91 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,839 lot off the dribble or space the floor for you. It's deteriorated. That's 92 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,560 just whole idea. So some of it's just been bad timing and you can't 93 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,439 absolve the front office of all those decisions. Also putting stan Van Gundi in 94 00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:35,639 charge of the front office and naming him the head coach that was always felt 95 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,000 like it was going to be. Whenever someone has had those titles in the 96 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:43,720 NBA, it really hasn't turned out well. So for the NFL, shout 97 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,800 out to Bill O'Brien. I don't even know what the Texans are doing right 98 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,399 now. This is a basketball podcast, though, let's not we can pour 99 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,600 the Texans are awful. They've already been eliminated from NFL playoff contention, So 100 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:58,839 I apologize to Deshaun Watson. Can you start us off with our consolidated ranking 101 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,879 ad him and just as a reminders, it has been a couple of weeks 102 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:02,279 since we've done one of these episodes, and they will be coming out a 103 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:08,480 little bit more regularly. Now. We have Adams rankings, my rankings, 104 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,120 and then we have a fan poll that you can check out. Go to 105 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:14,800 NBA Underscore Math on Twitter, and we're going to have those polls out there 106 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,800 so you can have your input in all of these rankings. And then Adam 107 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:23,240 consolidates those together and we have our composite pecking order. So who starts us 108 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,600 off at number ten Adam. Number ten in our composite rankings is Marcus Morris 109 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,399 Senior. He was number eight in the fan vote. He did not make 110 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,000 either of our top tens. He was he was in consideration for that ten 111 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:41,800 spot because the two seasons that he had earlier in this decade we're pretty solid 112 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,319 ones. I don't know that he'd reached the level that he did with the 113 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,959 New York Knicks and the Los Angeles Clippers lately. And I'm curious if you 114 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,600 gave him any consideration for your tenth spot. Mine went to Ish Smith, 115 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,839 yours went to Reggie Bullock. But I would imagine we both considered each other's 116 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,319 choices, because I certainly did with Bullock. Look, Ish Smith was there 117 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,040 for me. Marcus Morris was there for me. I even I even considered 118 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,319 Will buying him for a hot minute. Lanks and Galloway, I was all 119 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,639 over the place. Kyles Oliver and Jerebko were really close for me too, 120 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:11,360 I didn't really give I didn't give Jerebko even a modicum of consideration. I 121 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:15,439 did look at Anthony Tolliver for a hot second, but neither of those two 122 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:20,079 were really serious ones for me. So I get Marcus Morris finishing tenth like 123 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,040 he was solid during those two seasons, but he was not really the shooter 124 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,399 that he ended up kind of becoming in Boston, and that he definitely wasn't 125 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:31,160 having the season he had in New York this past year before he was traded 126 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,639 to the Clippers and his efficiency fell off a cliff. What's always really been 127 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,480 interesting with him is he's one of those guys where I'm not so sure that 128 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:43,240 he can thrive as that pure, complimentary scorer. And I say I always 129 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,799 say this because it's weird to me in those roles Theoretically you should be getting 130 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:50,799 easier shots. I just always look at off ball shots as the easier, 131 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:56,080 higher quality shots, and I'm sure that's not the I'm sure I'm sure that 132 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:01,679 doesn't happen everywhere, and that's not correct in every instance. But that's what's 133 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,320 always fascinated him with me, is that in New York this season would be 134 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,159 a good example, he was just free to really dominate the ball and go 135 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,440 at it. Now you go to Los Angeles where seventy five plus percent of 136 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,639 his baskets are coming off assist and he's just really not as efficient. I'm 137 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,080 sure there's like a rhythm thing to it, and there's value in having a 138 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,799 guy like that who was so comfortable working with the ball in his hands and 139 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,639 so he was solid and in consideration, I just I don't know if maybe 140 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:28,159 some people are conflating him with the Marcus Morris that he became again in Boston 141 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,799 as more of an efficient three point shooter, and then just watching what he 142 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,480 did this year in New York, I feel like there might be a little 143 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:37,399 bit of bias baked in there. Yeah, I think that that's my guests 144 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:43,480 as well. I don't remember Morris in Detroit being as solid and all around 145 00:09:43,639 --> 00:09:46,320 defender. I don't think that he was quite as strong as he has been 146 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,159 these last couple of seasons, which has enabled him to body up more against 147 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:54,399 bigger front court players and spend more time at power forward and center in some 148 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,480 small ball lineups. And to me, like his tenure in Detroit was kind 149 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:03,159 of the poor man's version of what we've seen these last couple of seasons across 150 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:05,480 the board. And that's what made it hard for him to work into my 151 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:07,600 top ten, because he wasn't the shooter, he wasn't the versatile offensive option, 152 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,360 he wasn't the switchable defender. He was good in those areas, but 153 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,360 he wasn't as good as he is now. Reggie Bullock at number ten for 154 00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:16,759 me, though, I wouldn't say it was a no brainer. We obviously 155 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:22,200 just went through that. But he kind of just typified a a mid end 156 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,679 three and D guy and could be just a difference maker because you can put 157 00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:28,480 him on a couple of different positions on defense and he could count on him 158 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:31,120 to knock down open looks from three, and then he had sort of the 159 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:33,519 straight line drive to his game as well. And then when you just look 160 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,600 at you know, there weren't a ton of players that had a tenure in 161 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,679 Detroit, like a long tenure in Detroit during this time. So if you 162 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,440 have someone who's gonna rank, you know, still top twenty in minutes played, 163 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,960 but he's not in the top fifteen, I think I had enough juice 164 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,480 to throw him in the top ten. Yeah, I don't hate that selection 165 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,720 at all. For me, it was Smith, and it might have just 166 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:58,440 been a little bit of a personal bias, because I enjoy the kind of 167 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,000 way that he plays, just the jitterbug point guard who is working to maximize 168 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:09,159 more of the limited physical skills that he has, but never really stood out 169 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:11,120 in any way. He's tenth and minutes played for Detroit over the decade, 170 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,320 so there's not like a strong case for inclusion. But I don't really think 171 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,039 there is a strong case for exclusion either. Who came in at number nine. 172 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,919 At number nine, we have Brandon Jennings, which is sure to be 173 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,960 a little bit controversial. He was seventh from the fans, He was ninth 174 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,279 from me. He did not appear on yours. You had Luke Kenard at 175 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,600 in your ninth spot. Yeah, I just I don't associate Brandon Jennings with 176 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:39,559 the Pistons at all. He was fourteenth in wind shares during this time, 177 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,519 and I actually did not know that he played when I first went about this. 178 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:46,559 I didn't realize he played so close to one hundred and fifty games with 179 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,960 them. But his time in Detroit just seems so wildly unspectacular, and perhaps 180 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,559 you could say that about what happened in Milwaukee, and then we have to 181 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,279 talk about you know, the injury is part of that, but you know, 182 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,919 if he had been able to piece together like a little bit more of 183 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,519 an efficient run there, maybe And I can't say I hate it because again 184 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,480 there are so many fringe guys on this list, but he really I gave 185 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:11,720 more consideration to Ish Schmith than I did to Brandon Jennon. Brandon Jennings. 186 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,759 Yeah, I wanted to give credit for the scoring ability that Jennings always had 187 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,279 and wasn't inefficient, sure, but given the lack of talent around him, 188 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,120 like it was one of those situations where maybe it had to be a little 189 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,799 bit because someone had to take those shots. And he was a good tough 190 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:35,440 shot maker and a very good tough shot taker and that's not always the balance 191 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,039 of skills that you want, but again, like someone had to fill that 192 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,480 role. Also, he and Erison Eliosilver were traded to Orlando to get to 193 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:45,399 Bias Harris, who has yet to show up in our rankings, And there's 194 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,679 something to be said for that, because he was still young enough and still 195 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,399 had enough potential as an offensive weapon that there was there was some value there 196 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,840 and his trade stock hadn't completely plummeted like it has in recent seasons. Did 197 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:00,679 you I had Lucanard at number nine? Did he even mak your list at 198 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,559 all? He didn't. He was in consideration and probably would have made it 199 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,120 had he stayed healthy this season, just because I really do believe in the 200 00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:13,360 trajectory that he's that he's been on recently, that shot is so pure. 201 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:18,840 He seems to have a pretty high offensive ceiling. But the vereness factor just 202 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:20,679 hasn't been there yet for me, right, And there's you know, even 203 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,159 though he's been there that the injuries I totally understand, and knee tendon nitis 204 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,320 is kind of scary. And then you're talking about he's only been there. 205 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:30,679 This was his third season and he didn't even play in in thirty games. 206 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,559 But just what he's kind of shown, I felt like his roles should have 207 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,279 been expanded before this season, Like certainly as a sophomore, he has more 208 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:39,639 of just a pull up jumper to his game than they allowed him to explore 209 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:43,200 this season, and he's really made strides as a playmaker. They kind of 210 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,799 dabbled with it over his first two years and maybe a little bit more as 211 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:48,919 a sophomore, letting him run pick and roll, but he was pretty good 212 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,200 in those situations this year. And if you can just have a guy who's 213 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,679 gonna shoot thirty nine from three like clockwork, no matter the types of shots 214 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,360 that they are from three, and I know that his volume isn't necessarily super 215 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,840 high. We're looking at around uh six three point attempts per thirty six minutes 216 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:07,519 for his career. That's not that's not nothing. And so to have that 217 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:13,440 reliability there, I was. I was really fascinated in just the type of 218 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,200 season he was going to end up having before the knee tend to night is 219 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,639 kicked in. You know, almost sixteen points four sis per game on fifty 220 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,159 nine true shooting. That's absolutely legitimate. And again he was handling the ball 221 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:26,960 a lot more than he had in years pass. And then you look at 222 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,080 his you look at his shot profile, and maybe he could stand to cut 223 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,960 out some of the you know, the in between looks because it just doesn't 224 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,519 get to the rim a ton. His game stalls out before there. But 225 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,039 he takes so many threes and hits them at such a high clip that that's 226 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,440 really almost doesn't even matter, and so I don't think he's ever going to 227 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,320 be someone that you necessarily want to have as your second or maybe even third 228 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,960 best player on a team. But he feels like he can be one of 229 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,399 those just like really good, really compatible role players where we're not going to 230 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,440 put them in that fringe star conversation, but he's going to be that directly 231 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,919 tier below. Again, we're talking about health pending, because whenever we see 232 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,600 knee injuries and particularly tendonitis in someone so young, that's definitely a red flag. 233 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:11,159 So I actually disagree a little bit. I think his ceiling is a 234 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:15,039 bit higher than you have it. I do think that I would be comfortable 235 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,480 with him growing into a second or third option and just being such a good 236 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,840 shooter that he could justify that even if he's not a great defender. He's 237 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:26,559 not creating for himself as much and he doesn't finish plays around the rim. 238 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,120 And I've been excited about his future, especially this year, which means that 239 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:35,759 inevitably the Pistons will trade him. I'm laughing because you said that, but 240 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:41,440 also because my dog is going ballistic. But yeah, when I saw that 241 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,440 they were thinking about trading him leading up to the trade deadline that was from 242 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:46,639 which I believe I was a little bit taken aback, but it kind of 243 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:50,039 makes sense because it's extension eligible and now we're dealing with the injuries. I 244 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,159 would think if you can get him, I don't know what the cost would 245 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:56,960 be at this point, But had it been this draft, would you've given 246 00:15:56,039 --> 00:16:00,720 up? Would you've given up a lottery pick for Lucanard? This? Absolutely? 247 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,000 I think I would a question, without question. There's I think there's 248 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,840 an argument to be had about the protections. Would you give up a top 249 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:11,000 ten pick for him? I think I would lean toward yes, But just 250 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,639 knowing how bad this draft is, I think certainly. I mean, I'm 251 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:18,200 excited for when, like the Lakers trade Kuzma for him or something. He 252 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,919 is he's better than Kyle Kuzma. I don't know who is the year this, 253 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,960 but Luca art is better than Kyle Kuzma. I think what really the 254 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,679 conversation I think is interesting is, you know, maybe I went a little 255 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:30,080 bit overboard by saying he can't be your number three, But you know we're 256 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 talking about the Nets can hold out hope that maybe Caris LeVert becomes their sort 257 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,240 of third wheel to having two stars. Luca Nard could be a similar type 258 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,480 of player that role, not the same type of game, and he might 259 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:44,159 even be better than Caris Lavert right now. His offense is certainly more efficient. 260 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,799 I just don't think he's shouldered as much as a from scratchburden to this 261 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,039 point. That's not a comparison I thought that I'd be making during Yeah, 262 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,399 this podcast saw this going at all attention Hardwood Knox listeners. 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That's promo code blue wire all one word bet online 272 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,279 your online wagering experts, which means that I think it's time for you to 273 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,359 take us to number eight. So a number eight, we have Rodney Stuckey. 274 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,000 He was tenth from the fans, he was seventh for me, and 275 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:52,119 he was eighth for you. So kind of all over the place there, 276 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,440 but at least we all all three sets did have him within the top ten. 277 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,799 And for me, he was like the embodiment of are in his concept 278 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:03,720 for this franchise, where nothing that he did in Detroit was spectacular. He 279 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,920 was never a shooter, he never fancied himself a shooter. He was instead 280 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,519 just kind of that that steady combo guard who could fill multiple roles, who 281 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:17,519 was a decent facilitator and avoided mistakes and was just kind of there stuck. 282 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:22,359 Stucky is actually fiften minutes played for the franchise over the last decade, which 283 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,799 definitely matters when we've seen so few people have long ten years in Detroit over 284 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:30,640 the last ten years. And I'm not sure that I have too many more 285 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,440 positives to say about him right now. There's not much I can add. 286 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,160 It is. Look, he could, he could score. He put points 287 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,880 on the board. But there's if you just remember, there's a moment in 288 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,680 time, maybe like a span of one or two years, and I think 289 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,960 only one of which would really overlap with the period we're talking about. Maybe 290 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:47,960 in twenty ten, twenty eleven, he was still viewed in this vein, 291 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,359 but it looked like the Pistons were trying to treat him as this like cornerstone 292 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,720 that they were going to rebuild around, and that was just a massive overexaggeration 293 00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,640 of the type of player that he actually was. But between you know, 294 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,079 him being able to get points does have a couple of good years to sprinkle 295 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,480 in there, and then you know, just relative to the rest of the 296 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:10,720 field, his there andess factor is through the roof here. And she said 297 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,519 he's fifth ten minutes played. So there's not really much I can add. 298 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:18,160 I honestly, before we even started doing research for this, like, he's 299 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,079 just one of those players that, yes, you knew who he was and 300 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,799 you remember him, but it just I hadn't thought about Rodney Stucking in quite 301 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,079 some time. I think the most fitting tribute to Rodney Stucky would just be 302 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,880 to move on to number seven here. No, that's too efficient, we 303 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,920 need to keep going. I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm gonna reveal that 304 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,599 at number seven we have Tayshaun Prince, who was a bit of a tricky 305 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:41,160 one to rank, just because he spent so much time in Detroit that it 306 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,440 was preceding the decade that we're looking at. So we only have the last 307 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:49,319 two and a half seasons of his time with the Pistons, and at that 308 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:56,599 point he'd already devolved. He wasn't he was still a role player on offense 309 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,799 who could put up some points, who could put up some some assists. 310 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,880 He wasn't quite the rangey defender that he was in his prime. And I 311 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,440 think it's telling that his Pistons tenure ended in a three team trade with the 312 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:14,599 Memphis Grizzlies and Toronto Raptors, in which Detroit sent him an Austin day to 313 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,160 Memphis and only got back Jose called her own. So the fans had Tayshawn 314 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,079 Prince at nine. I had him at eight. You had him at seven. 315 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,519 So as the highest on Prince, I'm curious if you have more positive 316 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:29,720 things to say about him. Look, I mean, so during this band 317 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,880 that we're looking at, he's still shot thirty seven point four percent from three 318 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,839 not exactly a shining true shooting percentage sub fifty there, and so he could 319 00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:41,240 still do that. I was just impressed that he ranked sixen minutes played during 320 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,039 this decade, because, like you, I'm just associating him with the teams 321 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:49,160 before this, and so I think I underestimated how long that Tashan Prince was 322 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,480 in Detroit, and so the Birness factor really really swung me there. And 323 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,359 look, I'm probably giving him a bump because of his legacy in Detroit, 324 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,240 and I'm honestly not going to apologize for that. I don't think you should. 325 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,240 I don't think you need to at all. Is he one of the 326 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,880 if we're talking macro conversations, he one of the more underrated players in NBA 327 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:17,000 history. I don't think so, just because I feel like he gets a 328 00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:21,359 lot of credit and deserves that credit for his role on that title winning Pistons 329 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,440 team and the early part of his career with the franchise. I think he's 330 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,720 still associated with those teams, and you know he was He was never an 331 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:33,880 All Star. He never should have been an All Star. He was an 332 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,799 All defensive player, and I think he's recognized as such. I don't I 333 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:41,119 don't know that I would really classify him as a guy that doesn't get love 334 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,000 that he deserves. Yeah, I'm just wondering if people just forget how good 335 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,680 he was defensively. I will say it does seem like he gets more public 336 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,720 shine than Sean Marion, one of the most just underappreciated players that the NBA 337 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:56,400 has ever seen. So if we want to use that as a gage, 338 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,799 then notation Prince is probably properly rated. But you know who's not one of 339 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:03,920 the most underrated players is Cantavious Caldwell Pope, who checks it at number six 340 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,079 for us. He was number six to the fans. He was number six 341 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,240 for me, he was number five for you. His career has been weird. 342 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,480 It's just been really strange, like both his time in Detroit and his 343 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:19,160 time with the Lakers, where it always feels like they're shopping him and he 344 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,799 might go, but he's not going to. And then he somehow has a 345 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:26,039 no trade clause and he shoots just well enough to like keep hope alive that 346 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,559 he's going to develop into this three and d asset, but then he follows 347 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,920 that up with a poor shooting season and like he was there, he played 348 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,759 tough defense, against a lot of wings. He made some big shots, 349 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:41,599 but I don't know. His career has just confused me, even dating back 350 00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:48,079 to his time at Georgia, where he was surrounded by just a complete lack 351 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,119 of talent, and we couldn't figure out if his low shooting percentages were because 352 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,039 opponents could focus on him so much, or if his shot wasn't as good 353 00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:59,720 as we thought it might be. It's like this, The conundrum has followed 354 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:03,279 him at every one of his locations so far. Yeah, I missed on 355 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,319 KCP. I remember having arguments on Twitter because I thought it was Blastmith that 356 00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:11,200 the Knicks gave Tim Hardaway Junior four years and I think seventy million dollars at 357 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,599 the time, which was still not a great deal given what the market was. 358 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,400 Maybe that wasn't twenty that was twenty seventeen, excuse me. And then 359 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,839 Contavious Carlo Pope, I think ended up getting like a shorter term deal with 360 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,200 he signed what he signed, He signed like a shorter term deal with the 361 00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:29,000 Lakers, excuse me. And so I was just arguing that he was miles 362 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,160 better than Tim Hardaway Junior, and I there's a part of me that would 363 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,799 still rather have KCP on my team than Tim Hardaway Junior, even given how 364 00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:41,119 good THHJ has been this season in Dallas. But everything you said, I'm 365 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,759 in total agreement with it helped this season. It doesn't help these rankings, 366 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:48,039 but he's probably been the lakers second most consistent shooter this year. That's probably 367 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,480 not a good situation to be in if you're them. Though. What I 368 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,039 did always respect about him is that he was he's kind of maybe his defensive 369 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,559 reputation was just overblown, but he always did work on that end of the 370 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,599 floor, and he kind of had some tertiary playmaking to his game while he 371 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,319 was in Detroit, particularly towards the end of that tenure, and that's ultimately 372 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:11,519 would help me become so high on him. But again, he's just one 373 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:15,480 of the players that completely missed on. I probably gave him too much credit 374 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:18,960 thinking that his efficiency would would sort of stabilize, and he's you know, 375 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:21,279 unless you're going to be on a team with the Lakers where you have one 376 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:22,720 of the best playmakers and then be a history setting you up like you know, 377 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,319 you're probably not going to be as efficient inside the arc as a play 378 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,319 finisher. But still someone who if you can deal with his transition heat checks, 379 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,319 which I'm willing to deal with, He's still an impactful player. And 380 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:36,960 I think I don't know. Had he signed it was five year, eighty 381 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,559 million dollars deal with Detroit, which would still be going on, we'd be 382 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:44,240 in his third season, it probably would be remembered as a bad contract, 383 00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:47,200 but there would have been worse ones given out over that time. And that's 384 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,799 perhaps one of the biggest compliments that I can give. Yeah, And I 385 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:53,440 think the other biggest compliment is is our thereness factor where he's third and minutes 386 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,559 played for the franchise over the last decade. And I don't know if that's 387 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,920 impressive by him or sad by the front office, but it's it's a thing 388 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,240 either way. Yeah, I mean he always he did, like during his 389 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:11,599 two final seasons in Detroit, just played a ton of minutes. And so 390 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,519 there was a guy who, yeah, his defensive workload was fairly heavy and 391 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:18,440 to play that many minutes. He was at thirty seven in twenty fifteen, 392 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,720 twenty sixteen, and then thirty three plus in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, and 393 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,000 he's his availability hasn't really been a problem, except for when he was under 394 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:33,160 that work prison arrangement with the Lakers. Like he's always his theirness has been 395 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,720 like one of his biggest attributes. So go ahead, I was gonna say, 396 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,759 I'm comfortable putting him. I had him a little higher than six. 397 00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:42,720 I had him fifth, and I'm comfortable putting him there. I was gonna 398 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,039 say one of the things that I associate most with his time in Detroit. 399 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:52,559 I'm not sure how how cleaning the glass classifies him, but I remember the 400 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:56,039 Basketball Reference had one hundred percent of his minutes coming at the two for each 401 00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:00,559 of his last two seasons in Detroit. We just just unique. I don't 402 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:07,359 think in this age of malleability and small ball lineups that we see guys who 403 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:14,119 are so obviously pigeonholed into one specific position. But he was like he was 404 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,519 never the primary ball handler. He always played with an actual point guard, 405 00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:21,680 and he was always the smaller of the wings. Yeah, I mean, 406 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:25,599 you very really have a one position player, particularly when you're talking about perimeter 407 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,920 players, like you get like centers and then even like some power forwards where 408 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,480 it's where it's like Jabari Parker is clearly just a four, like he can't 409 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:34,240 be a three. He definitely can't be a five. He's just a four. 410 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,359 So it's very rarely that you see like these, and I guess point 411 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,799 guards can pretty much be one position players. But but yeah, that is 412 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,079 really something interesting, and that's part of what made me so high on him 413 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,599 is I thought that he was going to continue to improve as as a setup 414 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,640 man and that that leap was just never made. It was not number five. 415 00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:59,480 We're up to. Number five is Reggie Jackson. He was number five 416 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:00,759 for the fans, He was number five for me, and he was number 417 00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:04,720 four for you. And I feel like we can probably agree that we thought 418 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,359 he was going to be higher at some point, and I'm not sure when 419 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,400 that point was, if it was when Detroit acquired him from Oklahoma City and 420 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,279 he was still coming off those successful seasons as a sixth man, or the 421 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,200 season after that when he showed that he could be more of an offensive focal 422 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:25,160 point before the knee injuries kind of sapped some of the athleticism and forced him 423 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,319 into a bit of a premature decline. But he's he did not live up 424 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,359 to the expectations in Detroit, but he wasn't bad either. Do you think 425 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:34,720 that's a fair way to put it. Yeah, I mean twenty fifteen, 426 00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:40,480 twenty sixteen, Reggie Jackson, his first full season in Detroit was ridiculously good. 427 00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:42,240 Yeah, and there was there was just a time where, like the 428 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:45,400 pick and rolls with Andre between he Andrew Jummond, it was just straight up 429 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:49,720 money. And we're saying that when Detroit didn't always have the most pristine spacing 430 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,279 around them. And so there's probably a chance that you know, I don't 431 00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:56,160 know how much higher he could have gotten looking at the players in front of 432 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,799 him. Never would have surpassed who I think will be the consensus number one, 433 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,319 but he probably could have been top three or top two if he ended 434 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,599 up staying healthy. It was just availability became just this huge problem for him 435 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,839 after that first full season in Detroit. You know, missed thirty games in 436 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,240 twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, missed thirty seven games in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. 437 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,440 I did not know that he played in all eighty two last year in 438 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,039 twenty eighteen twenty nineteen. So but just by that point you're in a smaller 439 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,119 role. You know, his three point percentage of the past two seasons in 440 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,720 Detroit. Before he was bought out, he had only made fourteen appearances with 441 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,039 the Pistons this year. Like, I guess that kind of stabilized a little 442 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:38,799 bit, and I do think he was probably a better set shooter then he 443 00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:41,960 was ever given credit for it, but he took definitely questionable shots when he 444 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:47,519 was on ball, and he just never seemed to provide that offensive steadiness again 445 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,680 beyond really that first season and there if you look at some of the metrics 446 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,799 too, though when he was on the floor, a lot of these times 447 00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,000 their offenses could be be better, and he's probably the closest they've come, 448 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:02,039 aside from Derek Rose during his Jackson's period in Detroit, to having that type 449 00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:07,720 of offensive just facilitator, someone who can really command the entire floor, but 450 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,039 sort of a I don't even know if is this a tenure of missed opportunity 451 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:15,640 for him? Is there a level of what if given the injuries, or 452 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,559 do you just think he was always overburdened with expectations when they signed him to 453 00:29:21,079 --> 00:29:22,319 that deal where they kind of just looked at him and said, you are 454 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,920 our franchise point guard. I think it was overburdening and I'm not even sure 455 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,039 that when he signed that deal, there was the expectation that he was going 456 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,880 to be a franchise point guard. Maybe maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel 457 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,359 like he was never going to be a franchise savior so much as a crucial 458 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,200 piece next to Drummond and the other pieces that they already had there. But 459 00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:45,680 that said, like and granted, this is only a forty four win season 460 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,640 where they got swept in the first round, but I do think it's telling 461 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:55,359 that his best season that twenty fifteen sixteen, that twenty fifteen sixteen campaign was 462 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,559 the one that led to Detroit's best season of the decade. It was clear 463 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,359 that he elevated their ceiling when he was healthy, when he was at his 464 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:11,799 peak level, but I think it's also telling how limited that ceiling still was. 465 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:17,359 I'm with you who checks in at number four. At number four, 466 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,160 we have Blake Griffin, who was second from the fans. He was third 467 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,400 for me, and he was down in sixth for you. He was the 468 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,880 player I had the most trouble ranking. I don't know if you felt the 469 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,240 same way, but it's just because the highs and the lows of his very 470 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:41,119 brief time in Detroit are so so polar opposites. He's only eighteenth and minutes 471 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,400 played for the decade because he was acquired towards the end of that twenty seventeen 472 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,240 eighteen season. Then his twenty eighteen nineteen year was just absolutely brilliant. I 473 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:53,079 think you can make an argument that it's the best season by a Piston maybe 474 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:59,079 since prime Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billips. Maybe you want to go even further 475 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:03,000 back than that. But then he was a disaster this season for eighteen games 476 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:07,279 before he was shut down with those knee injuries, and now his contract is 477 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:11,799 problematic and it's unclear whether he's ever going to return to a quality level, 478 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,559 much less in all star level. Yeah, there was a tug of war 479 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,720 here for me, just because it's how much do you wait that twenty eighteen 480 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,960 twenty nineteen season. I think you can wait in heavily because this man was 481 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,880 playing on like one leg in the playoffs. I know they were swept, 482 00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:29,799 but the fact that he played through that, I think it absolutely counts for 483 00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:33,440 something. And it's unfortunate that he really just doesn't seem like he ever fully 484 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,559 recovered, and so he ends up getting shut down for the rest of this 485 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,519 year. But twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, Blake Griffin was absurd. And 486 00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:44,279 here's what I wrote this over the summer when I ranked him as the seventeenth 487 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:48,200 best player in the NBA at the time and we were assuming full health. 488 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:52,039 That year, Griffin ran more pick and rolls per game than Eric Bledsoe. 489 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,960 He hit more pull up threes than rookie Trey Young, and if you're not 490 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,920 impressed by him out voluming a rookie, he also drained more pull up threes 491 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:04,240 all but seven players in the league. He finished in isolation about as frequently 492 00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:07,319 as Paul George, Kyrie, Irving, Zach Lavine, and Damian Lillard. 493 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,000 And he assisted on a higher percentage of his team's basket winning the game than 494 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:15,279 Stephen Curry. Just yeah, absolutely, I mean absolute stud that year. 495 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:20,880 So I think it was I would have if if I had more guts, 496 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,039 maybe I would have put him higher, because I know you did. I 497 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:23,880 had him at six, which is why I didn't mentioned him before, so 498 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,640 I knew we were going to get to him. But the fact that he 499 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,440 could be put in six after really having like what do you want to say, 500 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,079 like a season and a third of a case that's probably both telltale of 501 00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:40,079 the Piston situation but also how really ridiculously good he was last year twenty eighteen 502 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,079 nineteen, for me, was what we wanted Blake Griffin to become from the 503 00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:50,480 beginning when he entered the league out of Oklahoma as just this uber athletic dunk 504 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:55,200 bot who didn't have any sort of perimeter game but clearly wanted to develop that. 505 00:32:55,279 --> 00:33:00,799 He hadn't become a great facilitator, but he wanted to become that. 506 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,599 You could tell by the passes he was trying to make and the role he 507 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,039 was trying to fill on those Clippers teams next to Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan. 508 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:14,440 But he wasn't there yet. And that year with Detroit everything came together. 509 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:16,400 The jumper connected, as you mentioned, with those pull up threes. 510 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,440 He became a reliable source for initiating the offense from anywhere on the court, 511 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,359 whether it was running a transition opportunity or running a pick and roll, or 512 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:30,039 once a play broke down within the half court, he could bail them out 513 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,359 by creating for himself and by creating for his teammates. It was like the 514 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,240 evolutionary version of Blake Griffin that we wanted to see for so long, and 515 00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:45,119 it was so rewarding when that came together. And it's also just it's so 516 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:50,119 it's so unfortunate that it lasted for such a short duration. Yeah, I'm 517 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,720 with you, And I mean, he just he got an opportunity that he 518 00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:54,400 never really had with the Clippers until Chris Paul left and then he was just 519 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,640 there like for so short a time without CP three that this was really I 520 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,720 feel like the first opportunity he had at turning into that player. And look, 521 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,920 he has two years left on his deal. It's obviously not a good 522 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,840 deal at this point, but if he gets healthy, he can still be 523 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,519 an impactful player. I don't think that if you're the Pistons and you're trying 524 00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:15,719 to rebuild, yes, that certainly complicates things, but he's still I do 525 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,039 think at full strength, he's still someone that almost on his own, can 526 00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:22,679 help you punch a playoff ticket. Plus he's just easy to root for. 527 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,039 I mean, the guy plays his butt off. He's tried to play through 528 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:30,880 injuries. He's a really funny guy, and he's good at being funny. 529 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,280 He's socially aware, he tries to do what's right for his community. Like 530 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,039 Griffin just to me from the start really has been a guy who's just he's 531 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:44,280 It's very easy to want to see him succeed. And it's not just because 532 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:50,079 of the masgobbing and dunking all over everyone, even though that's part of it. 533 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,320 Guys, are you looking to last longer than the value of a New 534 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,079 York Knicks first round draft pick? Get the Bluechow dot com. Gluchow dot 535 00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:01,679 com has the first ever chew will that brings your performance in the bedroom to 536 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,079 another level. They've got the same active ingredients that are in viagra and silis, 537 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,159 so you know they work, and since they're chewable, they work faster. 538 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:14,519 You can take them anytime, day or night, even on a full 539 00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,719 stomach. Plus, you don't need to go to the doctor's office or spend 540 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,440 time waiting in the pharmacy line. 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He spent I don't even think he 550 00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:04,159 was there for two full seasons. Yeah mid season yeah, yeah, so 551 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,760 but just a buckets getter. And that's where it really became clear that, 552 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,800 oh he's legitimately good. And he helped him get Blake Griffin, who I 553 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,760 don't think anyone necessarily was in favor of that trend at the time, but 554 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,800 they he was a key piece in them getting someone who's a superstar. But 555 00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:23,920 as a scorer, I think he's probably been overtaxed in certain situations, like 556 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,400 he can't shoulder the burden that Jimmy Butler can. There's his game kind of 557 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,440 stalls out where Butler if he doesn't even doesn't if he doesn't have his efficiency 558 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,119 from the perimeter, like he's just going to get to the line in gobs 559 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,079 and that's never been to Buias Harris's style and do you trust him and crunch 560 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:43,239 time to be your face up weapon going downhill. But he can hit pull 561 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,960 up jumpers. He's turned into a pretty good three point shooter. He's turned 562 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,880 into someone who's not so much of a ball stopper. He can play the 563 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:52,519 three or the four. I definitely like to see him play. I prefer 564 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:57,519 him at the four personally and sort of have that well rounded scoring to be 565 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:01,760 relatively efficient. During his time in Detroit while he did it, and the 566 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,760 context being this is when it was he okay, it was like kind of 567 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,920 cute what he was doing in Orlando, but it was while he was in 568 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,079 Detroit where it was all of a sudden became clear, like, oh, 569 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:15,199 he's really really good, and so shout out to the Box for trading him, 570 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,079 trading to him, trading him to Orlando in the first place. But 571 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,800 so I'm probably maybe I'm overrating his entire NBA career in this, but he 572 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:30,039 was just so good in the time that he was with Detroit that I don't 573 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:31,159 I didn't feel like it was too much of a stretch to put him in 574 00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:36,960 that number two spot for me. The three things that I associate most with 575 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Tobias Harris are the bromance with bobon Marianovitch, which is fantastic and should be 576 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,519 promoted at every stop and every opportunity. Two is the constant improvement, just 577 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:52,960 dating back to that rookie season with Milwaukee and then his sophomore season where he 578 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,800 was sent to Orlando, and then his time in Orlando, and his time 579 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,199 in Detroit, and then the start of his time with the Clippers, and 580 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,719 maybe even a little bit of his time with Philadelphia, Like he's just consistently 581 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,119 gotten better and unlocked more pieces of his game and become one of those all 582 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:13,800 around weapons who just has such an amorphous identity that he can fill any any 583 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,280 role that needs to be filled. And then the third thing is just like 584 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,320 how is a guy this this good and valuable on the offensive end, especially 585 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,840 been traded so frequently? Right now, it makes sense because he's gonna be 586 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,079 on the five year or one eighty million dollars deal, But before this to 587 00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:32,119 have been all right, clearly overlooked, like in Milwaukee, but in Orlando, 588 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:37,599 good, Detroit, good Los Angeles, really good fringe all star that 589 00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:42,199 in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, before he was then traded to Philly. 590 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,880 Again, Just who's the last player that was this good, like in real 591 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,119 time, not someone who was traded after his prime, but that was this 592 00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:52,480 good that was moved so damn often. I have no answers. And it 593 00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:54,639 even goes beyond that, because he was moved twice as a draft pick too, 594 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,480 so I don't know that we really get to include those in the career 595 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:02,440 transaction. But the New Orleans Hornets traded the twenty eleven first round pick that 596 00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:07,000 was used to get him to the Portland Trail Blazers to acquire Jared Bayless, 597 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,000 and then the Blazers moved him with Dante Cunningham, Shawn Marks, the Vanilla 598 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:15,880 guerrilla who keeps making appearance in these podcasts somehow, and a first round Because 599 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,039 you haven't for Gerald Wallace, I do. I'm trying to mention him at 600 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:23,639 every opportunity. But yeah, I mean, before he landed in Charlotte, 601 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,920 which then traded him to Milwaukee before he'd even played a game, he'd been 602 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,519 traded three times. It's crazy that two of those, like he was traded 603 00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:36,159 before he was even just like his draft was there like twice. That's what's 604 00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:37,960 just great. It's like as a future draft pick, traded twice, which 605 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,119 is pretty apropo for what's happened during his career. Twice as a future draft 606 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:45,760 pick, once on the day of the draft, and then four times since 607 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,559 he started playing. That's ridiculous. I don't have I don't I don't know 608 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,480 if there's a quick way to dig through transaction history and figure out if that's 609 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,639 a record for a guy playing at his level. But let's just go ahead 610 00:39:58,639 --> 00:40:01,440 and say definitively that it is. Tobias Harris is the most traded good player 611 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,719 ever. Like picture if Luke Ridnour was actually good. Yeah, exactly, 612 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:09,800 although he gets traded like in the same day basically, So that's like Luke 613 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:16,360 Ridnour is the goat of trading who comes in at number two. At number 614 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,079 two, we have Greg Monroe, who was second for me, and he 615 00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:23,480 was third for both you and the fans. I struggled with with Monroe, 616 00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:27,840 Griffin and Tobias Harris. I felt like I could have had them in any 617 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:34,000 order, just depending on whether we were valuing peak level reached, the valuable 618 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,280 contributions to the franchise, the bareness factors. You know, Monroe never became 619 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:44,599 an All Star for the Pistons, but he was a reliable interior scorer right 620 00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,280 as that role was starting to be phased out. If he'd come around a 621 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,000 decade earlier, like he would have been really good and very valuable, like 622 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000 almost an Al Jefferson kind of player, where he had a lot of post 623 00:40:55,039 --> 00:40:59,559 of moves, He had soft touch around the basket. He had some ambidexterity 624 00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:06,079 with his face up and post moves, but it didn't work next to Andre 625 00:41:06,199 --> 00:41:10,400 Drummond. It didn't work when they tried to go super big, and he 626 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:17,119 never elevated this team into into a unit that any organization in the Eastern Conference 627 00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:22,239 was going to fear if they managed to make it to the playoffs. Yeah. 628 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,920 Just I mean, the thing I like most about DeAndre Eton Senior is 629 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,519 that he was super crappy with his footwork when he was just on sort of 630 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:35,039 the block, and he became he turned into ficial nickname. Right. Yeah, 631 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:37,039 I'm waiting to see if you would acknowledge that at all. But he 632 00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:42,000 turned into like a pretty serviceable playmaker as he got towards the middle of his 633 00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:44,760 career. I would just like to remind you, like gregman Row was only 634 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,719 twenty nine. Like you talk about, just how much a smack you in 635 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,079 the face dose of reality. His career arc became because he was such this 636 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,760 He was such a sought after free agent in twenty fifteen. The game has 637 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,280 just evolved so fast, and he was one of those guys who never really 638 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,280 had too much of a jumper. I'm not trying to insult DeAndre Ayton here. 639 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,960 Gray Monroe first all on his prime, which is weird to say because 640 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,920 he's only twenty nine, but he was. He was really good, So 641 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:13,960 it's not actually that much of an insult. It's just it's interesting to think 642 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,719 that at one point, and maybe it was never really a debate within Detroit 643 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,440 because it seemed pretty clearly that they favored Drummond, but there was like a 644 00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:23,320 nationally it was a do you keep Monroe or Drummond type thing, like that's 645 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,159 how good he was. Yeah, So I honestly respect a career that he 646 00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:32,559 was able to carve out. He's probably definitely someone that wishes he signed more 647 00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:36,639 than a two plus one in twenty fifteen, and I'm sure that those deals 648 00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:39,159 were on the table for him at the time. I do wonder what would 649 00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:43,199 have happened had he been with the team, or had Detroit maybe just surrounded 650 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,880 him with more spacing in general, because the fact that him and Drummond were 651 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:51,039 tasked with playing together at all during their time in Detroit, like that's borderline 652 00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:55,800 functional malpractice. Even you know, we're talking about much earlier in this decade. 653 00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,880 Even still that was that was just really kind of shrinking you're spacing by 654 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,880 a huge margin. I feel like it could have worked had the timeline been 655 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:12,320 a little bit different because recent Andre Drummond has been able to operate from the 656 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,639 perimeter as a ball handler and as a secondary facilitator a little more like it's 657 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:19,440 still not really where you want him on the court, But I think that 658 00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:24,159 partnership could have been a little bit more successful had we seen the more evolved 659 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:30,280 version of Drummond next to the interior score that was Monroe. But we just 660 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,119 didn't get a chance to. And I mean, look, they basically they 661 00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:37,199 tested out for like two seasons basically right before he was kind of yeah, 662 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,480 yeah, whether you tried to stagger them a little bit or no, was 663 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:43,000 basically his final two seasons. I feel like that was what it was. 664 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,280 And also he's I think the only player who just signed the qualifying offer instead 665 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,320 of going into researched free agency. Just for Nick Sands who were so concerned 666 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,440 that Christosporzingis was actually going to leave of his own volition it at some point 667 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,440 he was never going to sign that qualify offer and coming off an ACL injury. 668 00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:02,079 Fun on little side note there, But well, I remember at the 669 00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:06,320 time because I believe I wrote about this when it happened, like we thought 670 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,760 that it might be the beginning of a trend where players were betting on themselves 671 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:15,559 a little bit more, but that that just never developed into anything, probably 672 00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:17,719 because I didn't work out so well for him, you know, much A 673 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,719 damn shame at Chris Middleton never got the opportunity to be on this list. 674 00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:25,360 That might be considered trolling, but yeah, I mean, at this point, 675 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,000 like we've already trolled it off just by talking about the last decade for 676 00:44:29,039 --> 00:44:34,239 the Pistons. Who is number one? The suspense is freaking killing me. 677 00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:37,039 I know, it's it's a it's Andre Drummond. I'm sorry to spoil it 678 00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:39,480 with no drum roll or anything, but you know, he was number one 679 00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:42,440 for you, he was number one for me. He was number one on 680 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,480 all but one of the fan ballots that were submitted, and I don't think 681 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,280 there's any doubt, which means that it's time for the once a podcast trivia 682 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,480 question for Dan, where I see how embarrassed he's going to get when he 683 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,320 doesn't know the correct answer. Are you ready? I'm absolutely not ready, 684 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:04,480 which means fire away. Where is Andre Drummond in Piston's history and career? 685 00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:10,159 Wind chairs? And who's number one? Oh my god, I have no 686 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:15,760 idea where he would be for his career. Let's say, let's say five. 687 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,880 How oft am I there? You're off by two spots? Is he 688 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,480 seven or three? Seven? Okay, you guessed Chauncey Billips's spot. Shout 689 00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:31,639 out Chauncy Billips, mister big shot? Who is number one? Is this 690 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:37,320 an obvious answer? I'm going to kick myself when I miss it. Nope, 691 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,079 all right, so at least I don't have to pick Isaiah time. 692 00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:40,320 I forgot that I had to say something because I was shaking my head. 693 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,079 But obviously our listeners can't hear that. It's Notah Thomas is fourth. It's 694 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:50,280 not Mellow because they didn't draft him. I'm just trying to stall by taking 695 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,920 thoughts out of the organization. It's not Darko. Is it ben Wallace? 696 00:45:54,599 --> 00:46:00,000 It is not Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace is sixth. Is it Dumars? 697 00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:02,960 It is not Dumars. Du Mars is third. But you're moving in the 698 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,599 right direction. Lambier, Lambier is number one, Okay, that's not like 699 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,880 not obvious. Yeah, he's spent a lot of time there, Yeah, 700 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,159 and played on a lot of good teams. But yeah, he has ninety 701 00:46:14,199 --> 00:46:17,159 eight point four winchares with the Pistons. Second place is Bob Lanier at ninety 702 00:46:17,199 --> 00:46:21,840 one point six. Joe Dumars is third at eighty six point two, Isaiah 703 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,079 Thomas at eighty point seven, Billips at seventy three six, Wallace at sixty 704 00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:30,440 five nine, and Drummond has sixty point four. But r Andre Drummond. 705 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,519 It's so crazy. He's just another example of how quickly the NBA has changed, 706 00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,920 because now it doesn't even feel like there's room for these pure fives, 707 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,480 like guys who can work as a as a room roller. And he's probably 708 00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:44,960 not the most switchable on the defensive end, like him being on the floor, 709 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,360 I know he's had pretty poor guard play around him, which certainly hurts 710 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,960 over this time, but it's never just guaranteed you even in okay defense, 711 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,679 Still to think about the numbers he puts up and then see that the Pistons 712 00:46:57,679 --> 00:47:02,239 traded him for two expiring con tracks and a less favorable twenty twenty three second 713 00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:06,800 pick. I mean the answers they gave him away, right, that's what 714 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,719 you're trying to say. Yeah, it's well, it's just still less favorable. 715 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,880 Second. You couldn't even get the more favorable of the Cleveland Golden State 716 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,239 pick in twenty twenty three. I mean, yeah, this is this is 717 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:21,119 a twenty six year old who has a legitimate argument to be known as the 718 00:47:21,159 --> 00:47:25,960 best rebounder in NBA history. I'm not saying he is okay, but like, 719 00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:30,320 if you want to put him up there with Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, 720 00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:34,360 Dennis Rodman, West Unselled, like those guys like you can do that. 721 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,679 I believe that. I believe that Drummond is the all time leader in 722 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:42,480 total rebound percentage. He's just not playing in an era with as many missshots 723 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,079 are operating as quickly as as the league did in the sixties and seventies. 724 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,480 But he's he's got to be up there in that conversation and that's a valuable 725 00:47:52,519 --> 00:47:55,320 skill. But the NBA has evolved to such an extent that again, a 726 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:01,039 twenty six year old who is at least in that conversation in an important area 727 00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:06,480 of the game was given away at the trade deadline. And what probably really 728 00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,800 hurt him, even like before this transition started happening, is it's really tough 729 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,079 unless you're Rudy Gobert on defense, which he is not. It's really tough 730 00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:19,960 to build around a big who doesn't have the playmaking post game and he had 731 00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:22,960 there was he was his assists skyrocketed before the Blake Griffin trade like it was 732 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:28,480 there for Blake Griffin trade really held him back right and there to see Andre 733 00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,599 Drummond like randomly leading fast breaks like that was kind of cool. What's interesting, 734 00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:35,239 though, is so he has this maybe this is two current eventsy, 735 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,199 but it's I think it ties into the conversation we're having, is that he 736 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,840 has a player option for this summer for twenty eight point eight million dollars and 737 00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:45,039 I have no doubt my mind that he's going to pick it up. Now. 738 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,039 How many years, though, would it take him to recoup that recoup 739 00:48:49,199 --> 00:48:53,159 that money in his next contract. I mean, I don't think that he 740 00:48:53,199 --> 00:48:59,239 would get anything more than like a four year million and four year contract with 741 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,280 like twelve million and annual average value. So we're on the same page. 742 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,199 I think it would take at least three seasons for him to get that all 743 00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:14,039 that money back. And that's just another harbinger of how quickly and how starkly 744 00:49:14,199 --> 00:49:17,440 the NBA has changed, Right, And we're not talking about a guy who 745 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,360 like accepted that he has limitations and hasn't worked to improve his game. Like 746 00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:29,639 he's tried to take a few more jumpers. He's shown that, especially before 747 00:49:29,679 --> 00:49:32,360 Griffin came, that he could lead fast breaks, that he could serve as 748 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,119 a secondary hub on on half court sets. He's improved his free throw shooting 749 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,679 dramatically. I mean, to the point that he went from one of the 750 00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:44,880 worst free throw shooters ever to making above sixty percent of his freebees for his 751 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,000 season. Like, this is a guy who's who's young and has shown that 752 00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:52,119 he has that work ethic, that he's immensely valuable, that he's durable, 753 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,079 which cannot be taken for granted when you play such a physical, bruising role 754 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,519 and it just doesn't matter. And I also think, like as a quick 755 00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:04,920 aside, like I hope that people will understand that we're talking about more overarching 756 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,000 Andre Drummond things, because we have no need to justify that he's number one 757 00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,239 in the last decade. Yeah, I don't know who you would put when 758 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,159 it's these no brainers. There's there's no there's no like Dark and Dallas, 759 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,159 Like right, what do you want to talk Lebron in Cleveland? You what 760 00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:20,320 do you want to Maybe maybe Griffin had a better season than Drummonds best season, 761 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,519 but like it was one compared to Drummond, who's been there for almost 762 00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:27,840 the entire decade. It's it's almost kind of incredible that his defensive rebounding rate 763 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,599 is what it is, just considering how inconsistent his motor has been on that 764 00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:35,800 end of the floor for basically his entire career. Two and so, I 765 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,920 don't I think there's a case maybe that maybe there was a better player in 766 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,239 there that he never really tapped into. But like he said, he did 767 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,480 change his game and now we I think we might even be overselling how much 768 00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:47,760 change he made on the offensive end personally, But like he's he has tried 769 00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:52,519 different things, and it's just it's never really panned out. Part of that, 770 00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:54,800 again, is just the personnel that Detroit had around him during this stretch. 771 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,159 But I do think that to expect him to be your best player, 772 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,960 your primary building block that would it is probably something he was he was never 773 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,360 going to be. Still that player is is an All Star, multi time 774 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:07,920 All Star, and he was. He was an All Star in twenty eighteen. 775 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,400 This isn't even that he's twenty six. He was an All Star in 776 00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,599 twenty eighteen. I feel like we're talking about him like he just retires, 777 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,840 right, And I don't. Maybe I am over selling the offensive changes, 778 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:25,039 but I think part of the reason why is that we we saw what he 779 00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:29,920 was becoming, what he was trying to become, right before the Blake Griffin 780 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,599 trade. And I don't think that Detroit needs to regret that trade, despite 781 00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:38,760 the albatross that is currently on their books, just because that twenty eighteen nineteen 782 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,360 season was special enough to justify trading for him. But what might Drummond have 783 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:50,440 become if they had instead allowed him to continue going through the growing pains and 784 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:57,519 evolving into a different and potentially better player. Yeah, and one of the 785 00:51:57,519 --> 00:52:00,719 things that I'll always remember him for is he has some of the NBA's Harry's 786 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,280 shoulders. He did start saving them at some point because I stopped noticing it 787 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,440 on free throws, but he has some of the NBA's Harry's shoulders, so 788 00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:13,800 shut I'm impressed by your observations there. He also had a short fling with 789 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,760 I Carly's what was it? Oh, yeah, I remember that. I 790 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,480 think is that Maymber getting the actors wrong there? I hope it was like 791 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,320 his second season. Maybe it's been a while, it's been it's been a 792 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:28,199 minute. Jeanete McCurdy. Yes, So just some fun Andre Drummond trivia if 793 00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:30,960 you were looking for it, and Adam gave you the actual basketball trivia where 794 00:52:31,039 --> 00:52:35,679 he stands in wind shares for the Pistons orver this decade. Who who do 795 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,400 we have some honorable mentions for? I'm gonna read the first name and then 796 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:43,079 we can talk about him for a second, because it's Derrick Rose. He 797 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,360 was very close to displacing Rodney Stucky for a tenth place on the fans ballot, 798 00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:52,559 and I kind of get it, like I considered him briefly for the 799 00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:58,239 tenth spot on my own ballot, just because the season that he he had 800 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:04,320 this year, you know, like it was the first time in a while 801 00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:10,679 that we've seen Rose look more like vintage Rose while also accepting some of the 802 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:15,960 newfound limitations, and it allowed him to become a much more valuable presence in 803 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,400 the backcourt, right And what I really liked it from him this season is 804 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,199 it wasn't just you know, he was hitting his mid rage jumpers, of 805 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,000 course, finishing around the rim fairly well, but he was elevating the play 806 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:32,719 of his teammate teammates. He was really Detroit's just offensive lifeline for really long 807 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:38,119 stretches. And Russell Westbrook, Luca Danche and Lebron are the only three players 808 00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:42,360 in the league who assisted on more corner threes this year. And I think 809 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,320 that's just a good barometer for how valuable he was in Detroit, because they 810 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,119 weren't stockpiled with shooters to begin with, and yet he's causing so much chaos 811 00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,039 as he gets inside the art that these guys are just so open and he 812 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:54,400 was able to find them. I actually did not consider him just because of 813 00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,719 the whole one season sample size thing, but his season would this year was 814 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,400 damn good. It was so at twelfth on the fan vote. We had 815 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,159 Ish Smith at thirteen, we had Luke Nard at fourteen, Reggie Bullock at 816 00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:13,639 fifteen. Was Christian Wood. My fun Christian sort of fun Christian Wood story 817 00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:16,719 is, you know, he was in the middle of just this fantastic breakout. 818 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,360 I think he's a long term piece there. Right before the season was 819 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:29,079 suspended because of the coronavirus pandemic. I had the night before everything went haywire 820 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,280 and the season was suspended. I had scheduled a tweet on the NBA math 821 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,880 account showing his roller player rating and how ridiculous it was that he had segmented 822 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:43,000 seasons because he wasn't staying in the NBA, and then just this steep rise. 823 00:54:43,639 --> 00:54:49,239 Then it came out that he had been tested and was tested positive for 824 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,960 the coronavirus, and I canceled the tweet three minutes before it was sent or 825 00:54:54,039 --> 00:54:58,280 scheduled to be sent. And I'm so glad that I caught it, because 826 00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,159 it just it would not have been appropriate to be talking about this guy's rise 827 00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:08,480 while he was dealing with a virus. That's amazing. I was really glad 828 00:55:08,519 --> 00:55:13,280 that I woke up on time to cancel that one. Fun aside, though, 829 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,599 I would have liked to have seen because he was a New Orleans very 830 00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:17,119 briefy last year. I actually would have been interested to see him play sometime 831 00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:21,400 with Zion Williamson had they brought him back. Absolutely, And I feel like 832 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,280 we'd been talking about would as a breakout candidate for a while just because he 833 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:29,440 showed his bounce in Summer League, and I think it was obvious that you 834 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:34,360 could see the physical profile there and it just it really came together this year. 835 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,559 Yeah, he is coming together this year. Yeah. Yeah. I 836 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:38,840 don't know whether we talk about this season in the past tense. How does 837 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:44,199 that I think we I still think we use I don't think I don't think 838 00:55:44,199 --> 00:55:46,440 we can use the past tense until it's officially canceled. He was very solidly 839 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,760 a top one hundred player this year, I think, absolutely and so and 840 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,280 that's actually really commendable because it took dwyn Casey so long to not play Thawnmaker 841 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,960 over him, and then he wasn't insurgents in the starting line up until after 842 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,880 the Andre Drummond Tree. And speaking of thoughn Maker, I'll continue rolling through 843 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,920 the honorable mentions because he is make it. He did get a vote. 844 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:12,599 Shout out to the Maker family for participation. So after after fifteen Christian would, 845 00:56:12,639 --> 00:56:15,320 we had will Bind him and Anthony Tolliver were tied for sixteenth. We 846 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:22,159 had Jonas Jerebko, Brandon Knight, Langston Galloway, and for some unknown reason, 847 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:31,400 Josh Smith tied for eighteenth place. I'm yeah, I don't know someone 848 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,320 who just like maybe a Bulls fan. It was our June. I bet 849 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,400 it was our June putting Josh Smith. Why is he like director, our 850 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,519 technical director, who's a Bulls fan? And as we know, especially in 851 00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:45,320 this era of the Last Dance, the Bulls and the Pistons don't like each 852 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,760 other. So I'm gonna believe that that was in our June trol, never 853 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,239 mind that we're decades removed from that being relevant. But he wasn't even alive 854 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,800 for it. You know, I'll have to tell him that we talked about 855 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,880 him on this podcast and then make him listen to the whole Pistons thing to 856 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:07,760 figure out why it's in the middle somewhere and not at the very end exactly. 857 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:13,840 So behind Josh Smith because he was not tied for last tied for twenty 858 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,199 second, we have say Kudumbuya, we have Bobon Marianovitch, we have Than 859 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:22,679 Maker, we have Ben Wallace, and we have Charlie Villanueva. All right, 860 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,719 I mean those are I'm just wondering how those names. I'm just wondering 861 00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:30,440 how some of those votes come in when you're just looking at this decade specifically. 862 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,559 Yeah, I mean, at least everyone played for the Pistons this decade. 863 00:57:34,599 --> 00:57:36,960 That has not been the case with some of the teams in the past. 864 00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:40,880 At least vote for Eric Morland, you cowards, right, I mean, 865 00:57:40,639 --> 00:57:45,159 I'm thankful that we didn't get any Isaiah Thomas votes either, Isaiah Thomas 866 00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:49,039 votes. Did Chris Middleton get any votes? That would have been Chris Middleton 867 00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:52,400 did not get any votes, but he probably should have because he's that good. 868 00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:55,599 Do you have anything else to offer on this subject? Oh, let's 869 00:57:55,599 --> 00:58:00,000 please just move on to another franchise. Wow, Adam shitting on the Pistons 870 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,480 more than I did. But I am like, we just had to talk 871 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,760 about the Pistons for an hour. Infinite respect for Pistons fans, though, 872 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,199 Let's make it clear exact stand bases on NBA Twitter if we're giving out superlatives. 873 00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:14,679 I'll say that I think I'm more comfortable shitting on the pistons here just 874 00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:17,880 because, like, I think that the fan base largely accepts that and expects 875 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:24,719 it and isn't going to come after us vociferously because it's justified. I hope 876 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:29,840 your mentioned just get blown up at zero nine. Throw cuss words at him, 877 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,920 please, I'm used to it. We'll be back the next time Adam 878 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,480 is back. We will have the Golden State Warriors for you. That should 879 00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:37,480 be a fun one. Yeah. Another franchise that just sucked for the last 880 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,039 decade. Yeah, just absolutely awful. Light years behind, isn't that how 881 00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:44,400 it goes? Yeah? That was a. That was the Joe Lake of 882 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,280 hashtag, was it not? Yea. So we'll be back with them eventually. 883 00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:52,039 We'll also have the Last Dance takeaways, deep dives, you know, 884 00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:57,760 beyond what we watched on TV on Sunday night. Those will continue to come 885 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,679 out as long as the documentary is is running. And I'm saying is realizing 886 00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:04,239 that it's probably gonna come out after that one, so it's dating it a 887 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,119 little bit, but there will still be one installment left of the Last Dance 888 00:59:07,199 --> 00:59:10,559 dock at that point. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe to us 889 00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:15,519 on iTunes. Thank everyone for listening. Until next time, I'll leave you 890 00:59:15,559 --> 00:59:27,000 all with a shout out too, Detroit Pistons Legend Josh Harrelson, from self 891 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,920 help books to meditation, we work hard to find peace of mind. Exfinity 892 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,480 Home helps you rest easy with a total home security solution installed by experts and 893 00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:39,119 powered by secure and reliable Exfinity Wi Fi. You'll get twenty four seven professional 894 00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:44,599 monitoring with fast response times and real time alerts like when doors and windows are 895 00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:49,079 opened. Rest easier with Exfinity Home. Learn more at exfinity dot com. 896 00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:53,519 Slash Home Security restrictions apply Residential customers only. 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