1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,440 I think a lot of people that struggle with the beauty aspect of the churches 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,599 are people that look at the story of Christ and look at his crucifixion. 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:13,240 They look at the poverty of the images in the Gospel. They're like, 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,399 why then do you have these golden temples and why do you have all this 5 00:00:18,719 --> 00:00:24,600 powerful imagery? And the truth is that orthodox Christianity tends towards fullness, tends 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,320 to like a yes and right. We don't have a no butt It's like 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,119 yes and And one of the images that's important scripture is the eschatological image. 8 00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:38,600 Although Christ, even in his life the way that he lived very simply and 9 00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:43,159 walked, you know, with sandals on the ground, he also presented this 10 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,520 vision of the coming of the Son of Man as this glorious finality where all 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:01:03,000 things will come together. This is Jonathan Pejo. Welcome to the symbolic world. 12 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,719 So hello everyone. It is my great joy to be here with David 13 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,879 Patrick, Henry and Father Turbo. This is something that has been preparing itself 14 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,799 for quite a while. I've been looking forward to meeting Father Turbo. We've 15 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,319 had a lot of conversations, you know, in messaging and email and stuff. 16 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,879 So it's great to finally meet him in person. And so David Patrick 17 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,879 from the Channel of the Church of the Eternal Logos you can check that out, 18 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:41,400 is going to lead the conversation. I'm going to talk about beauty about 19 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,319 icons and so yeah, take it away, David. Yeah, I was 20 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,840 really excited. Thanks again, Jonathan for having us on. When we talked 21 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,719 a little bit about the beauty of logos theology, we mentioned that you had 22 00:01:52,719 --> 00:01:56,400 been wanting to stream and have a conversation with Father Turbo and I have the 23 00:01:56,439 --> 00:02:00,519 great fortune of him being both a spiritual father to me and also a friend, 24 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,680 and we wanted to talk a little bit about esthetics, orthodox beauty, 25 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,479 iconography and all these things. And I thought it was perfect for you guys 26 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,319 to come together because both of you have done iconography, and both of you, 27 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:15,719 you again Jonathan, with your work with the Symbolic World, has touched 28 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:21,759 on these topics at nauseum, I guess you could say. But to begin, 29 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,680 just for Father Turbo, I thought he could kind of set the foundation 30 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:30,039 of how is beauty and aesthetics understood and utilized in the Orthodox Church. When 31 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:36,360 Protestants engage, sometimes they would make claims that were over ornate that we worship 32 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,000 pieces of wood, that we you know, we worship idols and all this 33 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:44,599 different stuff. But they don't understand why esthetics and beauty is important to our 34 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,240 liturgical worship, to the church, to our theology and how we engage and 35 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,960 participate with God. And so I thought to open it up and we can 36 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:57,719 go anywhere. Is Father Turbo could lay out exactly how aesthetics work. And 37 00:02:57,759 --> 00:03:02,360 in the Greek word symbolos, this sim bollow throwing together two realities. That 38 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,919 a symbol from an Orthodox worldview is so much more than just a sort of 39 00:03:07,159 --> 00:03:08,960 an empty, meaningless thing, as you've talked about, Jonathan. But it's 40 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:15,560 the brain together of two realities. And so, Father, if you could 41 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,159 then lead us into how aesthetics are understood from an Orthodox front, well, 42 00:03:20,199 --> 00:03:24,400 I think the first thing to understand is that it's about leading us into reality, 43 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:31,000 which is God, and the incarnational aspect of it is absolutely imperative. 44 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:37,240 But I think sometimes we stop short because we'll look at an icon of let's 45 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,520 say, you know this is very common. You give a tour and a 46 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:45,280 temple, and you know every priest has done this, every you know, 47 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,159 lay leader has done this. And you kind of break down the econa stass. 48 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,800 If you're blessed to have a dome with a Ponto grazer icon and the 49 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,520 dome you're blessed to be able to you know, have those. You know, 50 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:02,080 every church has those, unfortunately on a kind of like majestic scale. 51 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:06,360 But you say, like, oh, you know Christ, the incarnation and 52 00:04:06,439 --> 00:04:10,280 this is all very good, you know, but I think it isn't just 53 00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:16,360 about the incarnation, meaning the logos becoming flesh, but it's also about us 54 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:23,240 being brought into the life of God and that incarnational aspect, you know, 55 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:29,079 think of it going both ways. I think is key because worship is about 56 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:36,000 this bringing in of the finite, the created, the broken into you know, 57 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:42,360 infinity, eternity into the you know, never actually reaching, but being 58 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:46,399 able to be drawn and approach the uncreated, being broken and being brought to 59 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:50,639 healing. Those are all things that you know, aesthetics, the aesthetics of 60 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:56,600 the church facilitates. It brings us to a place of not just the abstract 61 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,600 of theology, but the real, which is what we need to be healed 62 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:08,680 to experience love and symbol does all of that in a shorthand you know, 63 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,560 I try to instruct people when they think about symbol in the life of the 64 00:05:12,639 --> 00:05:15,839 church. You know, it's it is imbued with something higher than itself. 65 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:23,279 And so when we encounter across, we can look at it across and you 66 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:28,199 know, a whole unfolding of understanding happens, you know, in a millisecond. 67 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:32,079 So it's a shorthand that it brings us into increasingly deeper levels of meaning 68 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:38,480 and experience and that and it's really a bringing in. And I think that's 69 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:45,120 really key because when we view the icon or when we view architecture in the 70 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:50,120 church, when we also you know, it isn't just visually when we experience 71 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:56,680 chan't you know, there's something that happens to you when you're in a service 72 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,480 and then you hear the song. You know, the song is the kind 73 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:02,720 of like low droning note for those who don't know what that is, and 74 00:06:02,879 --> 00:06:10,800 chant and then just all of these you know, this this wave of melody 75 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:15,720 that's melismatic, and it's just it's undulating, and it's just it's living and 76 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,519 and it brings you into this heavenly space. That's all a part of it, 77 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,439 and it's all a part of being brought and being drawn, you know, 78 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:30,120 invited into into God. And so that's that's its purpose. And it's 79 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:33,839 done in such a way to communicate the ineffable to us, that which is, 80 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,000 you know, beyond our normal way of being able to articulate understand. 81 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,600 And that's what I mean by layers of meaning and really love and experience. 82 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,639 This is what symbol does. It's this, you know, however you want 83 00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:53,319 to call it bridge, you know, collorbook fans are called a boom to 84 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:55,199 it, and however you want to look at it. It just brings you 85 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,360 to this place. And that's that's what it's always been an especially for us 86 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:05,920 now in this modern times, it's even more so a rich experience because we 87 00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:11,199 are inundated with the plethora of images, we're inundated with the plethora of sounds, 88 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,839 and there's something so clean, it's cleansing, it's cathartic, it's it's 89 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:25,240 it brings us to this place that I think, although we suffer in many 90 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,759 ways from lots of things that you know, the ancient people didn't have, 91 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:34,040 and the ancient people where this aesthetic was formed through, we haven't a unique 92 00:07:34,199 --> 00:07:41,399 blessing in the sense that we can in some ways appreciate it on a different 93 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,199 level because we're coming from a place of absence. We're coming from a place 94 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,120 of being, you know, like I said, inundated, and it helps 95 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:53,079 us to see this one thing which is beauty is the revelation of Christ. 96 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,040 And I think that's you know, the kind of period I would put on 97 00:07:56,079 --> 00:08:00,480 it. It's it is the revelation of Christ and everything from you know, 98 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,240 harmony, symmetry, you know, and even you know areas where there isn't 99 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:11,439 symmetry, even those reveal Christ. So that's how I it'd explain it, 100 00:08:11,519 --> 00:08:13,399 you know. And I love that you talked about the symbol is it bringing 101 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,040 it into ourselves because it connected with a stream that we did on the devil's 102 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,959 iconography, which is a famous quote of Father Serah Formos talking about pornography. 103 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:26,959 But then through these black mirrors are our phones that we're seeing that, especially 104 00:08:26,199 --> 00:08:33,879 those who aren't of careful discernment spiritually, that they're they're bringing in demonic iconography 105 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:39,039 within themselves, and it's it's impure. As you talked about a sort of 106 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,919 purifying effect of true beauty. I think we're also seeing an attack on aesthetics 107 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,480 within our society at multiple levels, and this is affecting the interior reality, 108 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,000 the spiritual reality of people themselves. I know this something that Jonathan has spoke 109 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:56,000 about a little bit, Father Trouva. I think he really brought it all 110 00:08:56,039 --> 00:09:01,000 together maybe a thing in terms of helping especially Christians. I don't understand why 111 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,360 it looks the way it does or why it is the way it is in 112 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:09,879 our church. I think a lot of people that struggle with the beauty aspect 113 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,279 of the churches are people that look at, say, the story of Christ 114 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,039 and look at his crucifixion. They look at the poverty of the images in 115 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,720 the Gospel and how Christ lived a simple life, you know, with fishermen, 116 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:28,559 and so they're like, why then do you have these golden temples, 117 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,559 and why do you have all this powerful imagery? And the truth is that 118 00:09:33,759 --> 00:09:39,360 orthodox Christianity is tends towards fullness, tends to like a yes and right. 119 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:45,600 We don't have a no butt It's like yes and And one of the images 120 00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:50,240 that's important in scripture is the eschatological image. That is the way that although 121 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,559 Christ even in his life, the way that he lived very simply and walked, 122 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,440 you know, with sandals on the on the ground. He also presented 123 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:01,840 this vision of the coming of this on a man as this glorious finality where 124 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:05,240 all things will come together and the glory of the Throne will be shown, 125 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,919 and you know, and the the authority and the glory of God will fill 126 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,159 the world. Right, you see that already in the prophetic text, even 127 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,120 before the coming of Christ, right, that the glory of God will fill 128 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,399 the entire earth. And that is what we are, that is what we 129 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:26,960 are participating in our church service. We are participating in eschatological reality, which 130 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,919 is piercing in, piercing in from the future, piercing in from the final 131 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:37,919 Revelation, and giving us a glimpse of how we can participate in that glory. 132 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:41,559 And so many people they're like, why are you doing this Old Testament 133 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,679 stuff? Like you, why are you still doing like the Old Testament? 134 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,320 Now that Jesus come, that's changed. But the image of the church is 135 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,399 not based on the Old Testament as much as based on the Book of Revelation. 136 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,639 And that's true even from the early churches. If you go to Rome 137 00:10:56,639 --> 00:11:00,919 and you see the very early churches that were built in the fourth century, 138 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,080 they have eschatological motif you know they they they're representing the twenty four Elders, 139 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,519 and you see Christ on the throne, and there's a sense in which that's 140 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,320 what the liturgy has always been calling us to participate in. And so in 141 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,159 some ways it's the proper ordering of reality. When you read the Heavenly Jerusalem, 142 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:24,039 you have this beautiful vision of how civilization, how all the activities of 143 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,879 humans, you know, architecture, music, the relationship of the natural and 144 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:33,720 the artificial, all of this is properly ordered in glory to God. And 145 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:37,960 that is what we that is what we're participating in when we when we go 146 00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:43,600 to church. And I think that that's really important to understand because the thing 147 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,679 even in terms of the idea of beauty and of ornament and of proper ordering 148 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,639 and all this stuff, these are all things that exist also to understand. 149 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,919 It's like one of the things that happens is that, you know, if 150 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,799 you look at the early Bondy period, for example, and people started criticizing 151 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:05,320 the Christian Church and the excesses of the Christian Church, all of a sudden, 152 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,080 all that ornament and all that excess got put into state built things, 153 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,320 right, and so that exist that desire to celebrate and to kind of lift 154 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:18,600 up and to make beauty and to make even like even to to to a 155 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,919 certain excess is something that's part of our of our nature. And if we 156 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:28,000 don't dedicate it to God, we're gonna end up dedicating it to something else. 157 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,159 And you're gonna start, You're gonna start with this is how bad it 158 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:37,720 is. Like you're gonna start with making government buildings ornate and huge and beautiful, 159 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,559 and you're gonna end with some pop star looking like decked out like queen 160 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,440 with gold and jewels and everything. Right, that's how you end. And 161 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:50,600 so you start, you start with you want to remove that glory given to 162 00:12:50,639 --> 00:12:54,200 God, and you end up with like an image of a kind of whore 163 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,360 that is completely you know, decked out and make up put excessively ornamented. 164 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,360 Right, And so we have to be able to direct our desire for that 165 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,679 kind of exuberant beauty in the right in the right place. Yeah, I 166 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,720 think you make a great point in regard to you. You don't get away 167 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,720 from the ornimation in society one way or another, but it's actually of a 168 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:18,919 selflessness when we give it back to the church, when we give it back 169 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:24,159 to God and we give the as as much as we can do in a 170 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,360 temporal setting. The beauty, the transcendent beauty. And I wrote down timeless 171 00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:33,279 objectivity because as you pointed to, the sort of eschatological dimension, the piercing 172 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:39,600 of beauty inside of a parish or personal relationships wherever people encounter it in sinuates 173 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,039 the objectivity of beauty, the objectivity of morality, and the objectivity of the 174 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:46,440 truth, which is a who, not of what. It's Jesus Christ, 175 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:52,279 he is Truth incarnate. And so the ornimation isn't something that is paganistic or 176 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,480 idolatry. It's actually something that we want to give the best back to God 177 00:13:56,879 --> 00:14:01,360 and we want to live in sort that transcendent beauty, that beautiful reality. 178 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:05,080 And you look at Protestant societies and as you said, they don't have saints. 179 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,159 So then Beyonce, Johnny Depp, the Hollywood celebrities, the stars elevate 180 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,919 themselves as now the role models, the leaders for those in those societies to 181 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,000 look towards, to orient themselves in society. And like you said, the 182 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:24,440 ornamentation now is due to you know, these these modernist asymmetrical art museums or 183 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,799 these new understandings of beauty. This is a displacement of the lack of true 184 00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:33,600 aesthetics within I would say Protestant worship. Not that they are on great people, 185 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:39,039 of course there are, but you look at the the the mundaneness of 186 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,080 many of the inside of their churches. I think that that that that instinct, 187 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,639 in that pursuit for beauty then gets transposed to the world and not back 188 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:50,000 to God, which is the ultimate offering. And I think that's really key 189 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,759 because the instinct is in everyone, and that's part of the problem. It 190 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,120 has its points depending on you know what we're talking talking about, especially like 191 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,240 in a polemical sense in regards of something being Pagan or Christian. But I 192 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,720 think especially in this sense, it's important to realize that, you know, 193 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,919 why did why do pagans you know what, quote unquote pagans, right, 194 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:18,159 people, little citizens? You know, why would they have beauty? Because 195 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:24,320 it's it's innate in us, because God created us. And the awareness this 196 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:31,159 is one of the things in regards of having a disposition very much like what 197 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,440 jo I was saying about. You know, yes, you know and both 198 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:43,440 and in the sense that you know, recognizing God as creator and you know, 199 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,480 God is and being able to see God in the other person but also 200 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:54,840 in their expressions and even if they are devoid of you know, truth and 201 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,600 to a greater degree, you know, obviously the truth and the awareness of 202 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,679 who Christ is, you can still see the print of God in that. 203 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:07,399 And I think that's really important because this idea that well, you know, 204 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,399 it's funny. Jonathan said that because I had this, I got transported back 205 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:15,440 in time. I had a friend I remember during my time of conversion. 206 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:19,120 I think we were just made caticumens at the time. I had a good 207 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:26,320 good friend and I invited her to a service and there was already contention. 208 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,120 It's like what is this, you know, I heard you're becoming Orthodox, 209 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:33,200 Like what does all this mean? And I remember just her, you know, 210 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,320 kind of being in shocking and one and I remember especially you know, 211 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:41,919 the great entrance happens, and then she got up and left, you know, 212 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,159 she is she got up and left in those service. I was like, 213 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,000 wow, that's that's I don't know what happened, you know, so 214 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,240 I didn't, you know, what's wrong, you know. And after the 215 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,240 entrance, I you know, wanted to go talk with her, and she 216 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:59,200 said, you know, Christ wouldn't. Christ wouldn't do all this. And 217 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120 I remember her saying that to me, and I remember feeling so sad, 218 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480 not just because my friend got up and walked out of the service, but 219 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:14,400 because this reality that Christ is ruling and reigning. Now that that's what makes 220 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,559 me sad, because I knew she loved God, you know, and as 221 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,160 best as she could as what she understood, and that that is a very 222 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:30,440 powerful thing to be able to recognize the potential for people to experience the God 223 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,279 that already is, you know, kind of imbued them with the desire and 224 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:37,799 the ability to pursue truth and beauty. And I think this goes all the 225 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:40,720 way even back to what we're talking about with like, well, why are 226 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,759 doing all this whole Testment stuff? Even that had the eschaeological reach, even 227 00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:48,440 that was the echo from heaven even there. And I think this is really 228 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:52,920 key because when people set up this kind of dialectic of like, well you 229 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,359 do it this way, do it that way, it's they lose this reality 230 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:03,480 that this is about revelation. Although yes, you know certain aesthetic from a 231 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:07,160 period of time, you know that we call quote unquote Byzantine, right, 232 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,440 But the reality is is that those are just the means by which God is 233 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:18,960 revealing himself to us. And one of the things that the Church does, 234 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:25,519 through her aesthetic iss her trains her people, you know, trains the people 235 00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:33,960 of God to have an increasingly astute, accurate, pure, but expansive view 236 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,319 because we will never be able to contain, you know, we'll forever be 237 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:44,319 approaching the fullness of God. And so if we find our vision becoming, 238 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,400 you know, more and more limited and circumscribed, we have to be careful 239 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,799 that it isn't really about becoming more accurate, but maybe we are losing We're 240 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,319 going in the wrong way, if that makes sense, you know, because 241 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,400 one of the things that you learn when you enter into Orthodox worship you're not 242 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,720 orthodox, is it's incredibly familiar and incredibly foreign at the same time. How 243 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:11,880 is that possible? And that paradox, that tension, that's a very spiritual 244 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,160 thing being able to keep that tension. And I think that's one of the 245 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:22,200 things about are being quote unquote orthodox in this modern time is that we can 246 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,720 see It's like another example, I remember taking one of my kids to the 247 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:32,039 bank for whatever reason, greatest, greatest, you know, kind of anecdotal 248 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:34,440 story. But you know, my daughter, she's like, I think she 249 00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:40,759 was like eleventh time. She's like, this looks like a church, right, 250 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,559 Like the way the way it was decorated, you know, it had 251 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:47,519 this, you know, it had a very our deco feel to it, 252 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:53,400 but our deco has this kind of very Buzantine esthetic baked into it, right, 253 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,720 And so she could just discern that naturally, you know. And I 254 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,519 said, well, yeah, I told her, well, I told her 255 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,359 this is a temple, but it's a temple to Memmon, you know. 256 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,680 And so he kind of had a little Bible story there while waiting for the 257 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,319 teller. But my point with these stories is that it's it's already in people. 258 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,319 And I think for a lot of people outside of the tradition, you 259 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:18,799 know, a lot of it's this this dialectical like, well, you guys 260 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,200 just kind of then invented this and you just kind of take this, took 261 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,799 this from the Pagans, and it's like, okay, even that, even 262 00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:30,240 that, even if that is the case, what you I think are missing, 263 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,119 my friend, is that God created all things. This is this is 264 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,319 the revelation of how He's getting back. Towice saying earlier, drawing us closer, 265 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:47,279 you know. Yeah, but it's important to understand, like you said 266 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:49,720 about this woman who said Christ wouldn't do this, you know, and and 267 00:20:49,759 --> 00:20:53,680 when you talk about the paradox in the Orthodox tradition, we do have that 268 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,440 paradox very strongly represented, which is, we both have the ascetic living in 269 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:06,920 a cave, you know, eating like carrots every day or whatever for for 270 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:12,960 his entire life. And we also have you know, Constantinople and Hagia Sophia 271 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:19,759 and the absolute glory of this eschatological vision. And the truth is that those 272 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:26,359 two not only can co exist, but in some ways they reinforce each other. 273 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:30,799 Right. It's like we if we only had the great celebration and the 274 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:36,599 kind of royal aspect of the tradition we would we could you could say that 275 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,359 we would have something missing, but that's not how it is. We have 276 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,680 and you see it sometimes, like you know, you see it. We 277 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:48,359 pay attention to this. If people were careful, you'll see some priests like 278 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,160 come to the parish, you know, and you can see like his ratty, 279 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,680 this ratty thing, and it's like and he's got his head, it's 280 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,960 all fraying and it's all one of them. It's like it is like, 281 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,920 you know, it's like you can see and he's got he's got his prayer 282 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,640 rope that it's like it's kind of slick from the oil of his fingers or 283 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,839 whatever. And it's like, you know, you see the priests come in 284 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:19,200 and then and then he puts on right the vestment, and then he enters 285 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:26,920 into the worship and participates in this glorious thing. But it's like that's the 286 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,200 that's the contrast, you know, And it's it's a very important contrast to 287 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,960 have. It's as strong as the contrast between the Cross and the Throne of 288 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,960 Christ, which are both true and both manifests the fullness of what Christ brought 289 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,160 to us. And so it's important to understand it even in terms of what 290 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,920 you said in terms of the city, for example, like this idea of 291 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:56,440 bringing in the pagan elements into the The image that we see in Revelation is 292 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,119 the image of the city being converted. Right. It's like the Holy City 293 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,640 now becoming a vehicle. And it says in scripture. In Revelation it talks 294 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,440 about the heavenly Jerusalem. It says the kings of all nations brought their glory 295 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:14,880 into the heavenly Jerusalem, right, And so the glory of all the nations 296 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,599 is brought into the heavenly Jerusalem. And so it means that it's not it 297 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:23,680 doesn't oppose that which is good in all the cultures in all the world. 298 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:29,079 It's rather that the best of Rome, the best of different cultures, can 299 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,720 be brought in as an offering to become a vehicle for a participation in the 300 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:38,200 heavenly liturgy. So you both have this image that the image of the liturgy 301 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:44,640 is a representation of the description in Revelation of the angels that are surrounding the 302 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,920 throne and are sensing and doing all these things that we do in church. 303 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:52,839 But then also of the heavenly Jerusalem, that which is happening on earth as 304 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,079 this image of Because a lot of the forms that we have in church, 305 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,200 it's true, they're Roman, right, they come from Rome. A lot 306 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,559 of the architecture, a lot of the even some of the vestments. There 307 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,799 are certain things that have brought in from Rome. But that is the image 308 00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:11,279 in the Book of Revelation. Right. There's both, there's two Romes. 309 00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:15,799 You could say. In Revelation there's the horror, which is the evil aspect 310 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:18,839 of the city, the evil aspect of civilization that beasts and that horror together. 311 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,799 But then there's also this other image of all of human activities bringing up 312 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:27,400 their glory in service of God. I just wanted to say, I think 313 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,920 it's important too to kind of like dive, you know, kind of drop 314 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,079 down a couple thousand feet. And even just looking at the fact that the 315 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,119 quote unquote again Byzantine right Roman, the aesthetic even that is a synthesis. 316 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,039 You know, when we when we experience it, it isn't just this kind 317 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:51,240 of pure static just that popped out of anywhere that doesn't have you know, 318 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,319 influences from different nations. I mean, but Jonathan just brought up about the 319 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,000 ascological aspect. I mean works I think when I'm when I'm failing and trying 320 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,119 to get across too, is that that you were experiencing that now to a 321 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,240 veiled degree or whatever you however you would put it, Because even in regards 322 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:14,480 of the aesthetic of the Church, there are these somatic influences, Asian inversion, 323 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:18,000 Persian influences, and you know, this is when this is one of 324 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,599 the things that when you see that already, You're already seeing it if you 325 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,319 see what I did, right, They're like you, you're already seeing it 326 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,920 happen. And I think this is really key because one of the big problems 327 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:37,119 when we veered too far one way with something is that we we we miss 328 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:42,720 some of the details that are very important. Like, for instance, one 329 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,759 of the things that I you know, I don't do them as much, 330 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:51,440 but I used to do lectures on iconography like a lot. And one of 331 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,599 the things that I would do that would just you know, kind of scandalize 332 00:25:53,599 --> 00:26:00,240 people. I would talk to them about Fayum portraits, portraiture, and I 333 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:04,160 mean it without fail, especially at that time. This isn't like the like 334 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:07,200 mid like two thousand and five, two thousand and six, two thousand and 335 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,920 seven, and I would, you know, do these slide shows. And 336 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,799 I'd showed them and I thought, well, you know about the origins of 337 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:19,400 the quote unquote Byzantine style, you know, quote unquote, and you know, 338 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,079 some people would start getting kind of uncomfortable. You could see it in 339 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,960 their eyes because they have this idea that it just kind of like drops out 340 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,880 of nowhere. Yeah, you know what I mean, And it doesn't and 341 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:37,599 it is this which God always does. Right. God takes the synthesis of 342 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,680 human failed yes and fallen yes, but but human effort, human experience, 343 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,119 and he wields it together. He baptized that, he purifies it, he 344 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,079 loomins it, he imbus it with his love, with his presence. That's 345 00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:52,720 what the love of God is. It's his presence. If God shines his 346 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:57,000 presence on you, it's because he loves you. How you respond to that, 347 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,160 that's a different thing, but it's it's always out of his love. 348 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:07,119 And we see that revelation is a very unitive. One of the effects of 349 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,680 the revelation of God is it's unitive. It brings, It brings synthesis, 350 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,960 It brings things together, because that is the repentance. That's the undoing of 351 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:22,079 the fall, that disunification on a lot of levels. It's taking seemingly disparate 352 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,200 parts and bringing them into harmony. And I think that's one of the things 353 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:33,039 that maybe should be emphasized a little bit more because as the world, you 354 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:36,200 know what I mean, like the world like passions in the flesh of the 355 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,279 fall world and all that, and and the fall and powers are are continually 356 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:47,480 seeking to imitate to our even greater and greater degree the life of the Church 357 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:51,599 and the glory of God. For the sake of deception and all these things, 358 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,640 it's important that we discerned that. You know, ultimately, you know, 359 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:02,920 the love of God is what could never be triumphed over, and that 360 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:07,400 love it conquers. You know, love covers multitude of sins. But in 361 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,799 this sense the problematic multiplicity which Jonathan has talked about at you know, at 362 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:18,559 death that a nauga, But that problematic multiplicity of culture and esthetic and all 363 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,519 those things, it really does get reconciled. In the church. I mean 364 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,440 San John the Baptist, the Holy Mother of God always on the Iconostafs, 365 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,279 I mean male, female, the ascetic, the heavenly Queen, like right 366 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:36,319 there, it's always there for us to see. So Andrew Gould, the 367 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:44,440 architect, has pointed out to what extent Hagias of Fear is Persian like that 368 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,759 that even in like the sixth century, they have a Roman building. It's 369 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,480 still a Roman building clearly, and but that a lot of the ornamentation was 370 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:56,640 brought in from Persia. And there seems to have been this this desire, 371 00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:02,359 like you said, to bring in things and to join them in synthesis. 372 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,759 It's like it's the opposite of mixture. It's the opposite of confusion. Right. 373 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,839 Confusion is when disparate things don't play together towards a common goal. That's 374 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:15,079 when you have confusion. So you have a bunch of different things and they're 375 00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:19,960 doing their own thing and they're not coming together towards towards towards purpose. Whereas 376 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:26,200 synthesis is when you do have several things, but they're all that's say, 377 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,920 kind of dancing together and you can feel that they're joining towards a common a 378 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:37,200 common purpose. And so Christians are not against or for diversity and against against 379 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,359 the idea of different things. It's rather how is it that they come together 380 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:47,079 in love, in participation in the life of Christ. That's all really that 381 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,799 matters, you know, And and the liturgy ultimately plays that that that great 382 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,519 role, like you said, like if you look at the aconostatis and even 383 00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:56,680 the way in which we we are, like we are the people you know, 384 00:29:56,759 --> 00:30:00,599 saying the amen. There's the choir, there's the there's the there're the 385 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,640 priest and the clergy, and there's all these elements and they're all they're all 386 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,000 in a great dance. You know, they're all coming together in the worship 387 00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:11,279 of God. Well, and I wanted to pick up on a comment that 388 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:17,039 you said a few ago regards to the tension between beauty and asceticism. Jonathan, 389 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:19,920 and I think that we look at the contemporary culture and I totally agree 390 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,000 with you. That's what the church does. It holds the both and together. 391 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,519 And I when you're talking, what popped in my mind is that the 392 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,279 growth and hedonism and pleasure seeking actually erodes the beautiful tension and distinction between beauty 393 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:38,160 and asceticism. And as we become more hedonistic, one we can look at 394 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,079 the informalness of our society. I mean, it's stark contrast to look at 395 00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:47,799 the beginning of the twentieth century on how the average person dressed versus in the 396 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:51,599 beginning of the twenty first century. And again the informalness of the way we 397 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,799 dress, the informalness of the way we talk to each other. But maintaining 398 00:30:55,839 --> 00:30:59,200 boundaries. Something that I kind of reap on a lot and harp on a 399 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,759 lot on my channel is that this is the point of the logos, is 400 00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:07,839 that it maintains the order, It maintains the boundaries between things, and that 401 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,200 I would argue moving forward, at least, what we're seeing in culture is 402 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,319 this continual dissolution of boundaries and distinctions between things, and so as formalism breaks 403 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:19,240 down, as boundaries break down, you're talking about how discipline is tied to 404 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:26,000 the coming of a forward purpose. Well, we're living in a culture where 405 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:30,319 discipline is the under attack. Essentially, meritocracy is under attack. That we 406 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,319 have new understandings of the way that we move through our societies, and that 407 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:40,119 beauty and asceticism are necessary, because if you just have beauty, you're going 408 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,119 to end up in hedonism, You're going to end up in an over indulgence, 409 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:45,640 in which we could look at the Roman Empire, we can look at 410 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,480 the American Empire, we can look at our own context and culture. And 411 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:52,279 so I think again, the church, what it does is it holds these 412 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:57,519 things in the proper context, and that beauty is true, and beauty is 413 00:31:57,559 --> 00:32:01,480 morally right, and more is true and beautiful, and that all the the 414 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,559 good, true and the beautiful they play on each other. And I think 415 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,599 pleasure in the in the lack of the crucifying of our own will, is 416 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,440 actually leading to the eroding of all these things in our society to one degree 417 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,240 or another. And you'll see it's interesting because you know that image that I 418 00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:22,160 proposed at some point when I talked about the priests that comes in, you 419 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,880 know, kind of you know, a little ratty and a little kind of 420 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,079 disheveled or whatever, and then and then moves into the glory. Uh. 421 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,920 There's a sense in which these contemporary culture is the very opposite of that. 422 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:36,480 Right. It's like, in some ways the church asks you to come to 423 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,960 church broken. Right, It's like, come broken, my friend, Like 424 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:44,200 you know, come in confession, Come and come contrite. Come not not 425 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,440 like this, you know, it's like, come broken. And if you 426 00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:51,880 come broken, then you get this glory. You get to participate in this 427 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,599 beauty and this ping. And the contemporary world says, go out and like 428 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:01,559 joy, right, do it all jo and participate in excess. And the 429 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:07,039 result is that you are accidentally broken. Right, You're not broken in the 430 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:10,960 Christian sense of recognizing your loneliness and entering into that, but you're made low 431 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,480 and then you suffer for it. Right, You're broken, and your relationships 432 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,759 are broken, and everything gets broken. So it's like a weird inversion in 433 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:22,720 a caricature of each other, like if I can, if I could just 434 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,640 throw something out there, though, I mean, I think that so with 435 00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:31,640 hedonism, there's something that happens in the sense that you know, hedonism and 436 00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:38,200 it pulls it not only pulls someone out of the potential for that experience, 437 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,440 right, but it perverts intentionally in many ways. I would I would submit 438 00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:52,319 because like, for instance, the inability to see the beauty in the ascetic, 439 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:58,559 the inability to see the beauty that is in and the poor, right, 440 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,400 the inability to see the beauty that is in those things that are not 441 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:09,000 pleasurable, right. And I think that's the thing is our society conflates beauty 442 00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:15,920 with you know, something that is dazzling or pretty or it's not when when 443 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,480 the Church speaks of beauty, and I think this is one the things in 444 00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:23,239 the church speaks of beauty, people can mistake it for simply just you know 445 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:32,920 that which is grand and you know that which elegant is is a good way, 446 00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:35,920 in a better way, I think, in many ways, to begin 447 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:44,360 to explain to people what the how what beauty is, because elegance can oftentimes 448 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,800 be very subtle. The sublime is another way, because you know, the 449 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:59,000 sublime, and there is a at times, this catching of the breath at 450 00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:04,239 the sublime. You know, this this landscape which is terrifying, you know, 451 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,559 in its beauty. This I think this is important because our culture seeks 452 00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:14,159 to pull all of that away and just give people, you know, the 453 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,039 sugar, you know, the the hot pink, you know what I mean, 454 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,960 and the ice and and and you know, and the blank. But 455 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,719 that's not beauty anyways, Like there's nothing beautiful really about that. It lacks 456 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,719 transcendence. It lacks transcendence because because of it's but it's it's absence. And 457 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,119 what makes it transcendent is that transcendent isn't isn't a disdaining of the whole, 458 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:43,039 but it something that's truly transcendent not only encapsulates, but its ability to encapsulate 459 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,760 it. It moves above it. It's above it. Not it doesn't disdain 460 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,360 it per se, it's above it. It's it's beyond it. Right, 461 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,320 there's another way to I think, to see it. And so I think 462 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:59,119 this is really key because what could happen is that someone could begin to see 463 00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:04,079 the beauty of the church. And if they don't allow the beauty of the 464 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:07,639 Church to do its work. They could very begin they can very easily begin 465 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,119 to lose the ability to see the beauty of the church. Trying to know 466 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:16,159 what I'm saying, because if you are coming in and if you see beauty 467 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,119 and you see only the aspects of the beauty of the church which are self 468 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:24,760 serving, right, order is self serving? Right, we see it, 469 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,039 right, All these things are self serving because we want to be safe, 470 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:31,239 We want to be secure, all those things. But you you'll begin to 471 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:37,239 miss it because then you're you are extracting because of your own desire for comfort, 472 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,159 to have those things which you're only tentillating and appeasing to you. But 473 00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:46,760 the reality is is Christ calls us into especially it gives us eyes to see 474 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:52,079 where the beauty is found in the aesthetic, in the beggar. I mean, 475 00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:58,320 if you think about Christ, the logos incarnate walking among men, walking 476 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:04,000 in the height of civilized Roman Empire, that's the height distublati civilization on the 477 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,320 planet, right, quote unquote. And he's pulling together and how does he 478 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,119 do it? Like he's talking to the Samaritan woman and he's talking, you 479 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,480 know, to these and he's doing all these things alluding to the coming of 480 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,400 the Gentiles and his apostles they bring in the Gentiles. I mean, all 481 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,199 of this is just it's mind boggling, but that's absolutely what Christ did in 482 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:32,239 his ministry was to show where there isn't anywhere where He didn't touch, right. 483 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,679 I think that's really important for us because if we lose that sense and 484 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,760 people can lose it, especially as people see the beauty of the church as 485 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,159 a beacon of and it is a beacon of safety. But if it's always 486 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,320 just that, then there are these places where Christ is calling you, and 487 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,639 you will not be able to see them because they're not things that He's forcing 488 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,199 upon you. There are things that He's inviting us in too, And I 489 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:07,920 think this is why the ascetic tradition in the Church isn't just about you know, 490 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,920 the prostration and the bottle experience. But the icon for us at a 491 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,559 modern time, imposes a fast on us in ways that I don't think people 492 00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:22,280 understand. You know, that the icon imposes a fast on our senses and 493 00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:28,480 calls us to really reject the sugar and the pop and the you know the 494 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,159 kind of you know, visual kinetic energy that's given to us like all those 495 00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:37,679 things. It calls us to to actually discern that the pop and the twinkle 496 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:45,960 and the hot pink isn't really beautiful. And you need to have the better 497 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:49,280 herb, you need to have the salt, you need to have those things 498 00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:55,719 to really help you to apprehend greater scope of beauty, right And I think 499 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,360 that's really key because if we don't have that, then what can happen is 500 00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:07,679 people no longer are entering into the heavening realm, and they do just make 501 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:13,079 it, you know, a place which is like a museum with gold, 502 00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:17,400 you know, orimentation, and they and they begin to lose what the icon 503 00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:22,119 of Saint John the Baptist is communicating. They begin to lose the sense of 504 00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:28,679 what the church is is ushering us into. And then it really does become 505 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,880 flat and two dimensional in the wrong ways, and we lose the ability to 506 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:39,280 enter into that eschological experience because now we're just you know, spectating on some 507 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,880 sort of very interesting and exotic kind of amalgam, you know, and that's 508 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:52,000 that's not what's happening, right. Yeah. I would argue that the lack 509 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,760 of beauty in our society coinciding with what you're saying, it's bringing us down 510 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,639 to more of a base level of reality and just the pursuit of our pleasures. 511 00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:04,760 Because what what does in twenty twenty three walking through America, what gives 512 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,679 somebody the sense of all? I mean, is it the empire state building? 513 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:14,000 Like what exactly brings somebody to a transcendent awareness of asking deeper questions about 514 00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:19,599 themselves, about the world, about each other. And that's again part of 515 00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:23,960 the as Jonathan highlight the eschaonological purpose of beauty in itself, of esthetics, 516 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:30,159 and how God is working through the beautiful to reach us directly and think about 517 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:34,360 you're saying, Father Tobo. And and my question was because there is that 518 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:40,320 like in the the in the church there there is definitely what modern people now 519 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,519 would call the bleak, right, that is, if you look at the 520 00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:47,960 mosaics, you know that are that we still see in Ravenna or you know 521 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,000 in the in the in Hawgesfia, it's like it's something I mean, it 522 00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:57,679 is over the top, you know. And then even the vestments, right, 523 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,519 the vestments are over the top, hand embroidered, you know, with 524 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:06,920 gold thread and and all that. And so how do you see that like 525 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,719 how do you see because I I kind of saw you pulling back and saying, 526 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:15,119 we have to be careful not to be also deceived by by that that 527 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,119 those moving pictures or that kind of the kind of excess of luxury. And 528 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:22,480 I mean I see that in the tradition, right, I see it. 529 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:27,320 You know that you see it in Saint John Chris System who in some ways 530 00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:31,639 it is kind of criticizing, you know, the overly overly ornamented altar, 531 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,760 and then ends and says, but if there is gold, you know, 532 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,440 you should you should use the gold. But it's like you should be careful. 533 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:44,039 And it reminds you also of the the patriarch of Contintinople. When Justinian 534 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:45,639 built hag Yesophia. There's a legend the store. I don't know if it's 535 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:51,920 true, but there's a legend that he wanted to make the templon or the 536 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,320 door. I think it was the door of the church out of gold or 537 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,880 the templon out of gold or something like that. Like there was something, 538 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,920 the massive thing in the church he wanted to make out of gold. And 539 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:04,079 the patriarch said, he said, okay, you can do it, but 540 00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:07,599 if there's one bigger left in Contantinople. After that, it's like that's on 541 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:12,559 you, right, That's that's on you. And so he kind of had 542 00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,679 to pull back, you know and make it out of silver or something to 543 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,719 kind of find that balance. And so how do you see that? Because 544 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,880 I mean, I'm not a pastor, so I don't have to deal with 545 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,679 that as much. But how do you see that, even in managing a 546 00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:28,519 parish, for example, how to balance the charitable aspect with the beautification, 547 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,840 with the the you know, the the two kind of the tension that you 548 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,679 seem to be wanting to to bring out, to be careful not to be 549 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,840 also seduced by just this kind of external beauty. Yeah, I mean, 550 00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:45,960 I think the first thing is it's I'll just give this this insight. I 551 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:51,840 hope this is helpful. You know, our parish is in Kansas City and 552 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,159 it's you know, in the middle of the hood, like the hood. 553 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:01,960 And when we were you know, it's an old Baptist church which we brought 554 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,559 down to the studs and then you know, renovated. And when we were 555 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,880 doing it, you know, I was being very particular about things, and 556 00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:16,320 there was you know, murmurs and some people that were upset. They're no 557 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,440 longer in the community that blessed them. But they were upset because they said, 558 00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:24,199 you know, why why would you be spending all this, you know, 559 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,360 why are you gonna put a baptismal font here? Why are you going 560 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,000 to have a marble inlay here? Why are you doing that? And then 561 00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:35,639 I sat down and I told one of them the story of you know, 562 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,119 the baptism of russ you know, and the whole story of like sending out 563 00:43:39,599 --> 00:43:43,559 the emissary, sat blam, are saying the emissaries out to you know, 564 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,239 all these places, and you know, we all know the story, right 565 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:50,039 the emissaries went here there, and they finally went to Auguio cit and they're 566 00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:53,840 like, we didn't know if we weren't having an on earth. And that 567 00:43:54,079 --> 00:44:02,360 revelation of beauty wasn't just about you know, the incredible mosaics in August at 568 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,320 the time. It was it was the chanting, it was the music, 569 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:13,079 it was it was the spirit that was imbibed in the people. And we 570 00:44:13,159 --> 00:44:15,280 know that it's if you know that it's valid because when you look at the 571 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,000 life of Saint Vladimir, I mean, he ceases being a polygamist. He 572 00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:23,599 ceases being cruel, all these things. They begin to affect him and begin 573 00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:28,800 to affect the Russian people who were illiterate and pagan and barbarous and all that 574 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,079 stuff, right, and then they became people of God. Now I see 575 00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:37,000 all that To say this, the reality is that you know beauty will save 576 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:40,280 the word, but you have to know what beauty is first, and that's 577 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,119 part of I think what the church does is the church always you know, 578 00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:51,280 it's the it's the the yes, and you know it's the fullness, it's 579 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,079 we're maximalists, but we also understand that there is a place where you must 580 00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:59,519 ascend from or excuse me, you know you must you must ascend from this 581 00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:04,519 place. And the way that I think you really begin to do this for 582 00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:08,239 someone that you begin to understand what's your intent. Because the intent, if 583 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:14,760 it's a the worship of God, and the worship of God necessitates the bringing 584 00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:20,800 of the loft sheep, then what's happens is there's a real sense of invitation 585 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,760 that's in there. And I want to make this not so abstract. I 586 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:30,639 think that there are moments in people's lives when they can if you've been Orthodoxic 587 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,760 or not orthomotgicy. You've traveled around, like, why is it that you 588 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:40,119 can get a sense of something a warmth of a community and it may not 589 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,159 have all the quote unquote accoutrement that like a huge, perfect parish has, 590 00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:50,000 But you feel like you're being ushered into the Orthodox Church. You feel like 591 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,599 you're being ushered into something that's just as valid. Why is that, Well, 592 00:45:54,760 --> 00:46:02,000 it's because of the beauty. The the actual material of that's used to 593 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:07,239 express the beauty is precisely that it's just a material to express the beauty. 594 00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:13,679 Dph has behind him an icon of Saint Maximus. It's right there. I 595 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,920 was just looking at it, right, and it's like, well, the 596 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:25,559 problem is that people have these passions and they become attached to things in a 597 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,400 disordered, improper, idolatrous way. Right. And it's like Saint Maximus is 598 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,679 famous as saying, it's like, you know, gold is an object, 599 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,239 woman is an object, right, But gold connected to a thought of luxury, 600 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,960 which is fundamentally about self, right, then becomes a passion. You 601 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,840 know, it becomes this thing that becomes idolatrous. And so I think the 602 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,519 way I would say this is number one, I recognize that it is possible 603 00:46:54,400 --> 00:47:00,920 for someone to become unduly enamored and therefore, you know, begin to fall 604 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:07,119 to an idolatrous relation to the expression of beauty in the church. And we 605 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,519 see that when they begin to and this is what Saint John Krassostom's talking about, 606 00:47:10,679 --> 00:47:15,119 when they begin to disdain the beauty of Christ in the beggar or whatever 607 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,880 whatever context that you want to do, you want to look at. But 608 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,960 ultimately that horizontal, you know, the vertical of the cross, right, 609 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,639 you do the cross, You have the vertical of me seeing God, me 610 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,599 sing, the transcendent, you know, me seeing all these things, right, 611 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,880 and ultimately it's still about me right, seeing that thing and being connected. 612 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,840 But then if we begin to lose the horizontal of that reality, which 613 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,039 is the humbling aspect of seeing the other and seeing the beauty and the other, 614 00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:44,920 I think that's where people begin to lose it. And that's where you 615 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,679 see people feeling like it's not even so much that this person's you know, 616 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,000 disturbing you, but if they come in it's like, ooh, do they 617 00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:53,440 look unkept? You know, like that that happens in parishes, and I 618 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:59,679 think that's I think that's important because a parish which, you know, someone 619 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,360 I'm not talking again about someone who's you know, maybe having some mental health 620 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,679 issues whatever. I'm talking about just if a if a human ping wanders in, 621 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,639 doesn't know what they're doing, but maybe I know this is crazy to 622 00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:16,800 soon maybe God is leading them to that church to see something so that they 623 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,840 could have a place of conversion. And people could flip out and be like, 624 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,960 hey, you know, kind of get that guy out of here, 625 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:28,119 right. And Saint Peter talks about this about hey, be careful about having, 626 00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:30,679 you know, the wealthy person brought to the front and the poor person 627 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:36,960 brought to the back. And I think that is really key because if we 628 00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:40,039 don't ad knowledge, and if we don't have the humility to admit that, 629 00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:45,800 we could become beguiled. It's not the fault. And that's where I think 630 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:51,920 a lot of the Protestants Evangelicals miss it is that they think a person they 631 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,199 realize that that can happen, but they think it's the fault of the icon 632 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,000 or the fault of the mosaic. It's not the fault of the mosaic or 633 00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:02,760 the icon. It's the person who has not kept that tension of you know, 634 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,559 the transcendent beauty, yes, but also the beauty that's that's humble, 635 00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:10,719 you know, the beauty of of the beggar Saint John chrossoft Stone, I 636 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,719 mean, and Father trouble. You can you can treat the Bible as an 637 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,239 idol too. Absolutely, it's not hard at all. Like I saying, 638 00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:21,800 people do it all the time. When you talk to someone and they're saying 639 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,599 about the Word of God, the Word of God, the Word of God, 640 00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:28,360 and you're like, what are you talking about, And it's like it's 641 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,000 like it's like, it's not Christ, the incarnate Logos, it's the Bible 642 00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:35,159 that's the only word of God. And you're like, really, I don't 643 00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:37,360 know, it's a little weird, man. It's the spell book they have, 644 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:38,800 and then they treat it like it's a spell book, you know, 645 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,760 right, and so so yeah, I mean it is to say, any 646 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,320 this is the this is the you know, I've been looking at Exodus a 647 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,280 lot, because we did this Exodus seminar, you know, a while ago, 648 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,559 and I mean thinking a lot about some of the images in the book. 649 00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:59,639 And the character of Aaron is a really interesting figure because in some ways 650 00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:05,280 Aaron is a tool that God gives to Moses to communicate to the people, 651 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,159 because Moses like, I can't communicate. I need something, So God gives 652 00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:14,159 them an external He's like, here's this other layer that you can that will 653 00:50:14,159 --> 00:50:16,000 I'll speak for you, and Will be like, you're representative in front of 654 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:21,320 the people. And so he's like he is in some ways that tool that 655 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,679 God uses to manifest himself. But then he's the one who makes the golden 656 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:30,639 calf. It's like, that's the duality of externalization that in some ways it's 657 00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:34,920 necessary and inevitable. That is, all things that come down to us from 658 00:50:35,039 --> 00:50:37,079 God, you know, are externals in the sense that they're you know, 659 00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:42,079 the glories of God appearing in the myriads of things that we that we see, 660 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,719 and that's real and that's true. But they are all everything in the 661 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:52,000 world is in danger of becoming an idol if we are not looking through them 662 00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:55,360 towards towards that which is transcendent. So it's just the reality of externals. 663 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:04,000 So the idea that in some ways our particular form of worship is more in 664 00:51:04,159 --> 00:51:07,480 danger of becoming an idol, I think is nonsense. It's just the reality 665 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:12,360 of the externals. Yeah, I was wondering if maybe we can tie a 666 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,440 few of the different topics we've discussed with we're talking about symbols, bringing them 667 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:22,079 into ourselves, this timeless beauty, the eschaological importance of these things with us 668 00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:25,159 being living icons, because that seems that in a sense, that's what Father 669 00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:30,159 Turbert was getting at in regards to me and my relationship to the transcendent. 670 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:35,519 But then the horizontal is me enacting out the beauty as a living icon of 671 00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:37,559 Christ, and that this is the goal of all of us, and this 672 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:42,880 is the beautiful transformation of all of us through theosis, through the engaging with 673 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,519 these uncreated energies of God. I was thinking, maybe Father, you could 674 00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:51,000 speak a little bit to what for those who may not be familiar with windows 675 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,840 of veneration, how we understand icons, How does that relate than to the 676 00:51:54,159 --> 00:52:00,639 individual person having that relationship with Christ and becoming a living icon. Well, 677 00:52:00,679 --> 00:52:05,000 I think this is one of the things that's really important, is because man, 678 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,320 you know, I don't know if I can talk without throwing something out 679 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:12,800 there that might be kind of hard to swallow, but I just there is 680 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,800 no Christianity without an ascetic aspect. It's just it's just you can't have it. 681 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,199 It's a it's a caricature, it's a distortion. And the reason why 682 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,960 I'm saying that is because the aesthetical aspect of the life of the church, 683 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,440 it's there to do. It's there to it's it's there to help keep this 684 00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:36,599 tension that we're talking about, right, And it's also there because that tension 685 00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:39,599 is necessary in the sense of development, Like if we're going to look at 686 00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:44,039 the powers of the soul and the need for the powers of the soul to 687 00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:49,000 be you know, honed and strengthened and disciplined, and the powers of the 688 00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:54,280 soul being primarily the means by which we actually experience, you know, the 689 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,559 unseen God, right, because God is the maker, you know, the 690 00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:04,239 Father's maker of all things visible and invisible. And so that reality, which 691 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,199 is a reality, just because people are unaware of it, doesn't mean that 692 00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:10,719 that reality isn't there. And what the Church does, especially for us, 693 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,039 awakens us up to this reality. And it does it through the asthetic tradition, 694 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:21,239 but it does it also first and foremost, I think through the iconography, 695 00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:23,280 through the beauty of the church, the architecture of the church, through 696 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,480 the beauty of our hymnography and our chance. And the reason why I say 697 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:35,159 that is because what happens is when you even if you are not aware of 698 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,000 you know, the kind of the historical, you know, accidents of what 699 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:47,400 different cultural aspects brought together this thing, when you encounter it even if actually 700 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,079 let me flip that, actually forgive me, let me flip that, because 701 00:53:52,639 --> 00:53:57,679 oftentimes the movie producer and the director is the guy who can't watch a movie 702 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:02,039 anymore because he's he's so aware of what went in there that he's no longer 703 00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:07,880 able to kind of like suspend his knowledge to actually enter into watching a movie. 704 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,159 You know what I mean. It's like the artists who can no longer 705 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,719 appreciate something in the way that he used to back in the day, because 706 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:22,320 you know, he's he's become to some degree, like so jaded by his 707 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,000 knowledge. Right. I think what I'm trying to get at here is that 708 00:54:25,159 --> 00:54:31,400 this reality when you experience something, and it's sometimes often just a flash, 709 00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:37,480 and it pulls you to I don't have a better word except for potential. 710 00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:39,679 You maybe might be able to say hope, but you get this flash or 711 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:46,400 something it's otherworldly, and I don't it's nothing that I that you give an 712 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,119 image to him. I'm talking about seeing flying you know, horses or anything 713 00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:58,519 like that that I'm talking about a hope, it's forgiven. Let me digress 714 00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:04,280 a little bit. If you've ever experienced something very tragic, like the death 715 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,800 of a loved one or you know, I see this whole time being a 716 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:14,840 perious mentioning someone where I'm with someone who's dying, or they know that their 717 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:20,480 parent is dying, or you know, something really difficult is happening. And 718 00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:27,239 my job, my work is not so much to bring them to this place 719 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,280 where they can like kind of make it through. That's really up to God 720 00:55:30,679 --> 00:55:36,039 in many ways and up to them. But my work is to be present 721 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:42,360 with them, just being present because my presence is only possible. My presence 722 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,480 is valuable in so far as I'm trying to just be present to bear witness 723 00:55:46,519 --> 00:55:52,440 of what they're going through and God willing to bring to be some sort of 724 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,880 conduit for hope, right, and that flash of hope in the face of 725 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:04,440 the eminent. Trying to describe when this these flashes of eternity, these flashes 726 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:10,559 of something transcend it in the real way, that's what if you're being guided 727 00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:15,440 well, and you're actually not just looking at the icon and the church and 728 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:20,000 all these things. It's trying to, you know, find a solid ground 729 00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:23,199 in a temporal sense, meaning like yes, or society is crumbling, yes, 730 00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:27,039 their political systems crumbling, yes, or morale is crumbling all that, 731 00:56:27,079 --> 00:56:30,679 but like it's always crumbled because Antium crumbled, you know, quote unquote Holy 732 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:36,199 Russia crumbled. Like what has kept the people of God grounded? It's these 733 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,519 things. And it's actually in the face of these very terrible moments that like 734 00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:45,400 we get to see that hope being purified into something. You're not purified, 735 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:51,760 but freed from these things that were at once. They're given to us as 736 00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:57,199 aids, but we want to hold onto the crutches to some degree. And 737 00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,000 I know this gets into dicey territory because people like whoaha, whoa father? 738 00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:05,079 Then that isn't that the Is that the mindset of like you know, the 739 00:57:05,119 --> 00:57:08,519 Puritans and all these people. And I'm like, yes to some degree, 740 00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:14,599 but it was again not for the reasons that I'm talking about. Because we 741 00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:17,760 can talk about all of the I can give the legend to how to read 742 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,400 icons, right, this means this and this means that, and someone can 743 00:57:23,639 --> 00:57:28,039 become really adept at being able to break down like, oh, this symbol 744 00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:30,159 means this, this equals this, but see what what they what? You 745 00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:35,440 don't understand? This only comes from like really kind of experience and striving for 746 00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:39,159 it is if the more adept you get at being able to kind of like 747 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,840 read the code, the easier it is for you to begin to miss it, 748 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:51,719 because what happens is is you're now leaning into your ability to wield understanding 749 00:57:51,719 --> 00:57:54,760 and information for the sake of wielding it, right, And that's magic, 750 00:57:55,119 --> 00:58:00,199 that's not That's not what this is about. This is about being brought to 751 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:06,960 this place that only God can bring us to. That's what the icon's there 752 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,880 for. The icon is there to sure on a real basic level, even 753 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,800 though this isn't the case, but there's truth to it, right that the 754 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:21,960 icon is there initially to you know, pedagogically instruct those who couldn't read. 755 00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:24,920 But that's not really you hear this, but that's not really the case because 756 00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:34,480 it's like we're we are retrofiting our understanding of how people learn in pedagogy and 757 00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:38,440 experience on the ancients. Right, it isn't just about reading right, it's 758 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:43,400 the Gospels meant to be heard. See what people? That's not satisfying to 759 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,000 people when they hear the gospel, Gods will be mean to heard. No, 760 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,519 No, because if I can read, it's meant to be read, 761 00:58:49,719 --> 00:58:52,639 because yes, it is meant to be read. But not not just exclusively 762 00:58:52,719 --> 00:58:58,280 right because communal activity. It's a communal activity, and not just communal in 763 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:04,800 regards of like the horizontal right. But think about I think about the children 764 00:59:05,599 --> 00:59:09,079 who hear the gospel, you know, weekend and week out, week in 765 00:59:09,119 --> 00:59:12,920 and week out, and some of them are not going to most of them 766 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,320 are not going to go on to be priests. They're not going to go 767 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,199 on to be you know, quote unquote church workers. But they're gonna be 768 00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:22,719 plumbers. They're gonna be moms and dads. And they may not even be 769 00:59:22,719 --> 00:59:27,360 picking up the Bible daily, although I hope they do. But something there's 770 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:34,599 a seed that was planted deeply in them hearing those the hearing the gospel. 771 00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:40,199 There there's something that's very powerful that's opened up to them. When it may 772 00:59:40,239 --> 00:59:45,800 not even be a well executed icon quote unquote, but what is it? 773 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,079 They'll remember that icon that was in their church when they're growing up. Why 774 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:54,039 Because the icon facilitated something called communion, called connection. And and that's the 775 00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:58,320 thing is, if if we don't kind of really keep that, I think 776 00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:04,599 in the front of these conversations, it becomes very easy for someone from outside 777 01:00:04,639 --> 01:00:07,960 of our tradition or anywhere else to like, oh, that's cool and learn 778 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,039 this. And that's where that's where you get people who are like, yeah, 779 01:00:09,079 --> 01:00:13,159 yeah, I know about icons and it's cool and blah blah blah blah 780 01:00:13,199 --> 01:00:15,880 blah, and I have one here, right and they they're they're treating it 781 01:00:16,039 --> 01:00:22,119 like like it's a saison print that they got at big lots or something, 782 01:00:22,159 --> 01:00:25,519 you know what I mean, It's a it's a commodity. And the reality 783 01:00:25,519 --> 01:00:30,599 of it is is that, yes, there is a whole thing about you 784 01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:34,679 know, inverse perspective, and we can talk about all these things, and 785 01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:39,119 we should. I'm not saying we shouldn't, but I think what's I think 786 01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:45,559 what's appealing and what's captiving for people is that, For instance, why do 787 01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:50,159 people keep listening to Jonathan because Jonathan's a wealth of knowledge. But I think 788 01:00:50,159 --> 01:00:53,000 the thing about Jonathan is you still get the sense that he's in awe and 789 01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:58,599 wonder still you don't get the sense forgive me for talking like you're not there, 790 01:00:58,639 --> 01:01:00,920 Jonathan, like he you know, he doesn't. It isn't just kind 791 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:05,119 of like he's just throwing like yeah, da da da da da da da 792 01:01:05,199 --> 01:01:07,199 da da, and this is this and this is that. Right that you 793 01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:14,679 can tell to some degree that he's still searching, that he's still being pulled 794 01:01:14,719 --> 01:01:20,880 into that he's still he's in communion with someone. That's what That's what we 795 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,320 want to that's the end goal. We don't want to just know like the 796 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,320 why of something. But it's like what you're saying, dph about like the 797 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:34,440 who. And I think I really think that's important to bring forward because one 798 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,400 of the hardest things for someone who's coming out of let's say a reform tradition, 799 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:44,480 an evangelical tradition, is that they they see the icon, they see 800 01:01:44,519 --> 01:01:47,719 the liturgy, they see all the mystery of the church, and they want 801 01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:53,639 to pierce that mystery. But the thing is is they have to understand you 802 01:01:53,719 --> 01:01:58,679 can't pierce that mystery in the same way. And forgive me for being lewde, 803 01:01:58,719 --> 01:02:01,119 but you cannot approach it the same way. A guy kind of wants 804 01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:05,079 to you know, go for the hunt, you know what I mean, 805 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,199 Like some guys like the chase and you want to you don't want to approach 806 01:02:08,199 --> 01:02:13,519 it like you're you're going to conquer something. And I think that's what happens 807 01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:19,679 when we view these things and just almost exclusively like kind of pedagogical like approach. 808 01:02:19,719 --> 01:02:23,519 We have to remember like what, like what is being revealed here about 809 01:02:23,679 --> 01:02:28,280 who? Yeah, I think I think Father Terbo, what you're saying, 810 01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,239 what you're getting to is important in terms even in terms of the question that 811 01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,719 you asked their uh David that you know, the one of the main purposes 812 01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:43,719 of the icons is to bring into remind us of the communion of the saints 813 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,440 in which we're participating when we are in prayer and in liturgy. And so 814 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:51,280 that's why we have these standing saints that are just there kind of standing in 815 01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,920 the church like as if they're standing with us and they're worshiping God and you 816 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,639 know we you know, you talked also, you asked a bit about how 817 01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:02,840 how we treat each other in terms of the in terms of becoming icons, 818 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:09,000 and that is something that I this is a speculation on my part, but 819 01:03:09,079 --> 01:03:14,039 I think part of the reason why we kiss icons has to do with the 820 01:03:14,199 --> 01:03:19,119 Saint Paul's asking us to greet each other with the Holy kiss. I think 821 01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,440 I think that there's at least part of it which comes from that, which 822 01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:24,920 is in the same way that I bow to the priest and kiss his hand, 823 01:03:25,199 --> 01:03:29,320 the same way that the priest comes out of the altar bows to us 824 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:34,239 and ask for forgiveness in that in that way in which we re see Christ 825 01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,400 in each other in the church, and we and we signify that through different 826 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:42,760 ways, in the same way that we encounter the icons and the saints as 827 01:03:43,039 --> 01:03:49,039 a continuation of the same process that we encounter each other with. And so 828 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,960 I think you're right that there is a connection, definite connection in the manner 829 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:57,360 in which we're meant to encounter each other as icons. It's more, I 830 01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:03,880 think it's more best formulated, not that we're to become icons. That's that's 831 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,559 difficult. It's like, it's more that we should encounter others as icons, 832 01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:12,679 like we should when we meet others, we should see in them Christ. 833 01:04:12,719 --> 01:04:15,719 That should be our focus. And if we do that, then we will 834 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,119 be becoming like Christ. If we do that. But how to be in 835 01:04:18,119 --> 01:04:21,679 that disposition where we see like this person in front of me, you know, 836 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:26,360 is a little Christ to me, and I should I should, I 837 01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,559 should treat him that way. That's hard, that's a tough one, but 838 01:04:29,679 --> 01:04:34,360 that's what we're asked to do. I verily on when even you know, 839 01:04:35,039 --> 01:04:38,159 just coming to the church and people are like, okay, well, what's 840 01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:43,960 this, what's that? Blah blah, And I would explain to them about 841 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:48,679 my time when I was in the Balkans or even in Iraq, and I'd 842 01:04:48,679 --> 01:04:51,639 say, look, you know, like I was missing my wife and at 843 01:04:51,639 --> 01:04:56,880 the time to kids, and I pick up the pitch, I'd kiss it. 844 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,239 I would do that. I'd be on the fob and I'd be know, 845 01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,039 missing my missing my wife and my kids. Then I kissed the picture 846 01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:05,800 and people would go like, yeah, they get it. They would get 847 01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,000 it because they've had something some kind of experience somewhat like that, and they 848 01:05:10,079 --> 01:05:13,400 be like, there you go. We can move past that if you want. 849 01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:15,679 And you know, I can talk to you about photiosconto Gloux and all 850 01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:18,320 that stuff, but like that's not going to get you anywhere right now. 851 01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,800 Like what you want to know is like okay, like, well, how's 852 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:27,320 this helping out. How's this helping out the person actually in the church, 853 01:05:27,519 --> 01:05:30,519 not just the priest, you know, not just the educator. But what 854 01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:34,559 about that kid, what about that old grandma, what about working class gym 855 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,440 with his family. I mean, I'm really into this because I think one 856 01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:45,039 of the things is that for the people, the laos, for the people, 857 01:05:46,159 --> 01:05:50,519 it's all there to bring them into it because they're they're the people of 858 01:05:50,559 --> 01:05:57,920 God. It isn't just about the educated. And the illumination that the church 859 01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,159 brings comes from love. It comes from love, and and when we begin 860 01:06:01,239 --> 01:06:08,239 to have like that's the thing. People have relationships with these saints, they 861 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,039 really do. Like if someone you know, it's like I'm in the serving 862 01:06:12,119 --> 01:06:15,440 church of the tradition of the Slava, and you know, you have this 863 01:06:15,519 --> 01:06:19,920 patron of a family and oftentimes, you know, generationally, like they turn 864 01:06:20,079 --> 01:06:25,760 to Saint John when there's actual problems. Saint John isn't just like we have 865 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:30,320 Saint John up here because he is a figurehead of resistance to government power. 866 01:06:30,639 --> 01:06:34,639 Like that is such an interpretation we would he would give, which it's valid. 867 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:39,039 I mean, I'll go there all day. I'll go there all day. 868 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:44,400 But I think what's really important is that not everyone should strive to be 869 01:06:44,679 --> 01:06:47,679 a Jonathan Pago a David Patrick Kennedy, Like, I think people need to 870 01:06:47,679 --> 01:06:53,400 strive to be good, faithful men who work their h back job, who 871 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,920 go to church and love their neighbor. And when they do that, they'll 872 01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:03,079 be able to experience the glow and the profundity of God. Like that's that's 873 01:07:03,159 --> 01:07:08,719 reality, and and I'm all for that, because that's what transfigures the world. 874 01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:11,760 Like you said, at some point, you realize that the Saints are 875 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,840 there, and they're there, and you know, if you're if you're attentive 876 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,960 to it, you'll see them kind of you know, act in your in 877 01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:23,800 your life and act in the life of others. And you know, that's 878 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,440 a that's a great joy because it reminds us that they're alive in Christ, 879 01:07:28,519 --> 01:07:31,039 you know, and that they they're there. They are kids still in the 880 01:07:31,159 --> 01:07:34,199 church, and they still pray for us, and they just like we're meant 881 01:07:34,199 --> 01:07:38,440 to pray for each other. We can kind of experience it when we see 882 01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,599 the Saints move among us and and move things, you know, among us. 883 01:07:42,639 --> 01:07:45,639 So it's a it's a testimony to what the church is. I tell 884 01:07:45,679 --> 01:07:50,280 people about it and I know it's I'm taking liberty with it. But when 885 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:55,360 I give my explanations, you know, I tell people that think of the 886 01:07:55,400 --> 01:08:02,559 halo and the icon as the wedding ring and the unification of God and that 887 01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:06,119 person. Right, there's your thiosis, right, the univocation of God and 888 01:08:06,159 --> 01:08:11,400 that person and that wedding ring, which is a symbol, right, I 889 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:13,960 mean, and then you can even have someone touched their wedding ring. It's 890 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,600 like, you know, put your hand on that wedding ring, Jim, 891 01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:20,119 you know, put your hand on that wedding ring, you know, Joni, 892 01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:25,800 and recognize like what is that? Yeah that's metal, Yeah, that's 893 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,960 gold. Yeah, that's an or. But like the effort that you put 894 01:08:29,039 --> 01:08:33,319 in, Jim to work those extra hours, you know, to get Jony 895 01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:41,399 that really nice ring, right, that that's an actual manifestation of your love 896 01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:45,600 for Jonie and your love of you know, Mark and Lucy, who are 897 01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,399 your parents, right, Because you're holding to this tradition and you're you're loving 898 01:08:49,399 --> 01:08:55,000 this tradition and you're giving of yourself in the real world. Right, let's 899 01:08:55,039 --> 01:09:00,560 wet and tears to bring forth that love which is in the tear in the 900 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,199 sense of you know, it's invisible, but where you're manifesting it, and 901 01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:10,000 that's a real thing. And that's what icons are. Icons are a window 902 01:09:10,039 --> 01:09:13,479 to heaven. Okay, well what's heaven? Well look at an icon, 903 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,560 and what's in an icon? Every icon, generally speaking, there's going to 904 01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:24,000 be a human person, right and the halo. There you go, God 905 01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:27,560 and Man. That's what heaven. Heaven is the union of God and Man. 906 01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:31,000 Right, anything else we begin to kind of like get into other stuff, 907 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,560 but we know that's what heaven is. Person's with God and God in 908 01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:36,920 persons. That's what it is. That's what the Kingdom of Heaven is. 909 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:44,119 And so when we're able to bring it down to that level and show, 910 01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,159 you know, Jony and Jim that the symbols that are even on their body, 911 01:09:47,159 --> 01:09:51,039 on their ring finger can actually lead them into that understanding, then you 912 01:09:51,079 --> 01:09:56,239 start to approximate the purpose and the function of the icon. It isn't just 913 01:09:56,319 --> 01:10:00,600 there to give you, you know, a high level theological understanding of you 914 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,119 know, blah blah blah, but it's actually like to ground you, which 915 01:10:03,119 --> 01:10:09,199 is incarnational. That's the thing is that being incarnational is about being grounded. 916 01:10:10,079 --> 01:10:14,680 And I think this is really key because one of the big things that you 917 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,279 want to do that I wanted to do. I wanted to pass on the 918 01:10:18,359 --> 01:10:24,079 tradition, yes, but the life of the church to my kids, right, 919 01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:27,960 I want them to become citizens because this is the meta The church is 920 01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:32,600 the meta culture, right, Everything gets you know, everything is subsumed into 921 01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:36,880 that meta culture. And if there's something valuable and good, it gets baptized, 922 01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:43,319 it gets illuminated, it gets you know, impregnated with God's wisdom and 923 01:10:43,359 --> 01:10:46,680 glory, and then it becomes something blessed. Right, And that's that's why 924 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,800 we have to keep this reality in front of people. And that's what the 925 01:10:51,039 --> 01:10:58,159 icon does. It keeps that reality of what God is calling and has already 926 01:10:58,239 --> 01:11:00,600 ushered you into. You know, you remind me of the conversation I had 927 01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:09,079 with Bishop max Maximus on participatory versus propositional understandings of God and how we relate, 928 01:11:09,119 --> 01:11:12,399 and that this is what we're hinting at through the entire conversation, was 929 01:11:12,399 --> 01:11:16,520 this participation in God, participation in the experience of beauty, the creation of 930 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,920 beauty, participation in the uncreated energies of God, which is related to all 931 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,239 this different stuff. So we're talking about saints we're talking about men that, 932 01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,560 with their free will, chose to choose God, chose to love, chose 933 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:38,079 to participate. The icons then are windows of energetic realities of heaven in which 934 01:11:38,119 --> 01:11:42,600 that you participate in. As you said, you don't just decipher it like 935 01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,960 a code. It's a living reality, even though it's just a piece of 936 01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:50,439 wood with paint on it. And so this participation is this mystery of orthodoxy 937 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:57,600 that I think is what's so beautiful. It's not this overly scholastic propositional understanding. 938 01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,920 It's not just a sort of bland and lack of aesthetic due to the 939 01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:05,159 fear of idolatry. It's it's again, it's bringing all these tensions together and 940 01:12:05,239 --> 01:12:10,560 allowing you to participate in these realities. And that is then becoming a living 941 01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:15,920 icon, is the fullness of day after day after day choosing to participate in 942 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:20,560 this and hopefully God willing in yourself. You then can be as as Abbot 943 01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:26,680 Trefont says, and an angels unaware, you can be somebody in somebody's life, 944 01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,439 say it's the man who's disheveled and smells and comes into the church. 945 01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:35,159 That you are now in a position to actually be another window for somebody into 946 01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:39,119 the kingdom, and that's the goal of all of us, and that I 947 01:12:39,159 --> 01:12:43,199 think that's that's it's subtle, but it's a different emphasis than maybe you get 948 01:12:43,199 --> 01:12:46,800 in other flavors of Christianity because it's not so participatory. I think. I 949 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:50,199 think your point is right, and Father Troubau, your point about the wedding 950 01:12:50,239 --> 01:12:55,800 ring, I think is a great way to help people understand Sacramento reality when 951 01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:59,159 they're not used to it, right, and you can you can reduce it 952 01:12:59,199 --> 01:13:02,199 to very simple things like a good I try to. You find this the 953 01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:05,880 most the simple examples, like a handshake. Right. A handshake is a 954 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,960 ritual, right, A handshake is a means. A handshake is all these 955 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,800 things. But you know, you still tell your child, like, here's 956 01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:16,800 how you shake your hand, right, this is you have a firm handshake, 957 01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,840 don't just flop, you know, hold the hand not too long, 958 01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:26,479 like the child has to learn to shake the hand properly. And but the 959 01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:30,319 purpose is not the handshake, obviously, just like the purpose is not the 960 01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:32,439 wedding ring. And also the purpose is not this piece of wood with painted 961 01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,840 The purpose is that which we see through and so and we're used to it, 962 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:42,000 because now once you internalize it and you shake someone's hand, you're not 963 01:13:42,079 --> 01:13:45,840 thinking about the handshake at all, Right, You're seeing through the handshake to 964 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,640 the person that you're encountering and seeing it as a method to greet and to 965 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,600 enter into communion with them. It's the same with the kiss. It's the 966 01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:56,359 same with all these gestures, and the icon is the same. It's like 967 01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:59,640 you know, when you when we encounter the icons, we see them as 968 01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:04,640 mean of encountering the saints, of remembering them, of bringing them to mind, 969 01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:09,960 bringing them into prayer, and asking them to pray for us, And 970 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,720 that becomes as natural as a handshake once you have kind of entered into that 971 01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,800 life. But like you said, Father Trubau, if you just kind of 972 01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:23,079 sit at home online and you like interpret icons, like I'm I've interpreted icons 973 01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:26,199 more than anybody, right, Like I spent a lot of time interpreting icons. 974 01:14:26,199 --> 01:14:30,640 But obviously the point is ultimately for them to become vehicles for our participation 975 01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:34,199 in the life of Christ. That's right, I mean, I think one 976 01:14:34,199 --> 01:14:40,520 of the best ways to understand it, and especially I really hope that this 977 01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:44,600 helps a lot of people kind of get over some of those hurdles of barriers 978 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,640 of entry, and that they don't worry about what people think or whatever, 979 01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,840 and they just want to approach God. Right, And this is what I 980 01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:58,479 mean by this. All this is necessary insofar as it becomes tacit, because 981 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,840 b that's the space in which you begin to really get it and you get 982 01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:11,439 into it. For instance, your example about the driving, about the handshakes, 983 01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:15,560 perfect. Let's do another one driving a car, right. You know, 984 01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:19,479 I had first day of school today, my sixteen year old He's like, 985 01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:24,159 can I drive Dad? Sure? Right? And you know he's taking 986 01:15:24,199 --> 01:15:30,079 turns to why you know, all the stuff, all stuff, and it's 987 01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:35,239 not tacit yet he's still thinking. It's like, okay, break distance, 988 01:15:35,399 --> 01:15:40,119 right, and then there's gonna come a point when it becomes tacit. And 989 01:15:40,199 --> 01:15:45,399 what's interesting is the more all of those parts are tacit, the better of 990 01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:49,479 a driver, he'll be. Right. It's like more he forgets what he 991 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:53,720 has to do, the better of a driver he'll be. It's the same 992 01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:58,159 thing as you come into the church. The more that you internalize these things, 993 01:15:58,199 --> 01:16:00,479 the more that the remembrance's constant, you're present, it's there. You 994 01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:05,159 don't have to take the energy to recall. Right, because here's the thing. 995 01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:10,640 There's people who are living in the liturgy all the time. The animesis 996 01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,319 is happening from all the time. It's not that they've transcended it, but 997 01:16:14,359 --> 01:16:18,520 they internalized it so much there's no need for the recall. Right, they 998 01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:23,800 are in it, and then when they're actually in those very explicit moments, 999 01:16:24,199 --> 01:16:27,199 it just shoots them up another level, if I can use that language. 1000 01:16:27,199 --> 01:16:30,399 But it's tacit. And so that's the thing, is you get to this 1001 01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:33,279 place where the remembrance of the saints prayers. I mean, that's one of 1002 01:16:33,279 --> 01:16:38,079 the purposes of the quote unquote practice of the juice prayer is that it becomes 1003 01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:43,720 this tacit thing. That is, so you know, you've then bibed it 1004 01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:46,560 to such a degree. Right, this is the key thing to understand. 1005 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,960 But you have to go through that process of understanding. So I'm not disdaining 1006 01:16:51,039 --> 01:16:57,079 or detegrating that process of learning at all. I'm just saying that because of 1007 01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:02,319 our culture, the emphasis is so much on it, because of our tendency 1008 01:17:02,399 --> 01:17:08,800 for control and for our want of power, our want of security, and 1009 01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:12,119 that's what keeps us wanting to stay in this very kind of scholastic mode because 1010 01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:15,520 it's like, if I'm approaching everything through this kind of zoological framework, I'm 1011 01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:21,000 the master, right zoological. It's like I gotta be able to name everything 1012 01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:26,680 everything's going on before I ever engage, you know, yeah, yeah, 1013 01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,560 And ultimately here's the thing. You hit these you know, if you come 1014 01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:35,359 to the church, it's maybe two years, maybe twelve years, whatever, 1015 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,199 but you hit a hump, you hit this kind of flat point in this 1016 01:17:39,239 --> 01:17:42,680 plateau, and then you can often say to yourself, Okay, I'm just 1017 01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,680 kind of like going through the motions. So is it tacit now? Okay? 1018 01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:49,199 Sure? But like here's the thing that's where, getting back toward talking 1019 01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:56,720 about earlier, some of the dark parts of the Mosaic become important. The 1020 01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:02,520 dark parts of the Mosaic are death horror, you know, seeing the reality 1021 01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:06,840 of the fall world for what it is, and the light of Christ right 1022 01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:15,399 not needing to you know, put a false lens on seeing it for what 1023 01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:19,640 it is. If you imbib all these things, then what happens is it's 1024 01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:24,920 not so much that you become a window to the disheveled guy who's smelly, 1025 01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:29,520 but actually he becomes the window for you, right, And that's the thing. 1026 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:34,000 He becomes the window for you because one of the problems for us is 1027 01:18:34,039 --> 01:18:38,439 that we get a sense of I got it, and things are tacit, 1028 01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:43,560 let's say, And then you do begin to plateau. But you're plateauing not 1029 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:48,359 because God isn't giving you anything, but because you have hit this place of 1030 01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:55,319 your own glass ceiling of experience and understanding. It becomes self sufficient, supposedly. 1031 01:18:56,159 --> 01:18:58,960 And what happens is God then has to really kind of put He has 1032 01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:04,199 to turn everything upside down to wake you up. He has to use you 1033 01:19:04,199 --> 01:19:09,920 know, the car accident, the dishovels, beggar, whatever thing to like 1034 01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:13,479 bring you out of this place where you thought, Okay, I'm good, 1035 01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:18,159 I'm clean, I got all the boxes checked. Everyone looks to me as 1036 01:19:18,319 --> 01:19:23,880 whatever, and it's like, no, like that's nice. But here's another 1037 01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,119 level. And that level then becomes and that's where the cross now becomes a 1038 01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:31,319 whole other thing for you, right, because it takes on a different understanding 1039 01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:36,319 and you begin to now move in what you've already been doing in a different 1040 01:19:36,359 --> 01:19:43,800 way because I think this is the thing, my son, He'll become more 1041 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:46,319 and more, you know it becomes tacit, he'll become a better driver, 1042 01:19:47,039 --> 01:19:49,640 blah blah blah, and he'll enjoy that for a long time. But there 1043 01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:54,840 will come a point, God willing, where the driving now takes on another 1044 01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:59,359 meaning for him, and that meaning is going to be about transporting his siblings, 1045 01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,159 right, transporting his own kids one day, and it's going to change 1046 01:20:03,279 --> 01:20:09,800 everything and things that he was maybe able to do. Maybe at some point 1047 01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:13,119 he's able to there's some donuts in the parking lot and got some good control. 1048 01:20:13,239 --> 01:20:16,119 That's great, But something's going to want him to move beyond that and 1049 01:20:16,159 --> 01:20:19,840 to not flex and to not show off. And I think this is key 1050 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:26,399 because God again hasn't forgotten him, and God says, okay, son, 1051 01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,319 there's still more. There's there's there's still more to enter into, right, 1052 01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:34,960 And that's why you need to learn this stuff and allow it to become everyday 1053 01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:41,000 life. That's why prayer rules and the mundane are are are are valuable because 1054 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:46,159 you don't become adept at something quote unquote by entering into it in this In 1055 01:20:46,199 --> 01:20:50,760 this, it only happens when it becomes a part of your life intentionally, 1056 01:20:51,319 --> 01:20:57,680 and and that takes work, you know what I mean? So yeah, 1057 01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,800 And to sum up the conversation, I think this esthetic dimension of Orthodox he's 1058 01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:06,119 one of the most important that speaks to the contemporary world because I would say 1059 01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:11,680 most people are feeling the world's getting less and less beautiful in many many regards. 1060 01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:15,039 In the Church allows us to see what beautiful behavior is. Well, 1061 01:21:15,079 --> 01:21:17,159 how in a new context for beauty. As Father was speaking, you know, 1062 01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:21,560 somebody may think that the beautiful picture is everybody dressed nice at liturgy, 1063 01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:26,840 sitting in standing in the right places. But it could be the homeless man, 1064 01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,199 it can be the unbautiful inconjunction the both, and that from an Orthodox 1065 01:21:30,239 --> 01:21:34,560 perspective, is more beautiful that the bringing together of all these things together in 1066 01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:39,479 the worship of God. That is more beautiful than everybody wearing the right palette 1067 01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:44,239 colors and standing in the That's almost too contrived, and that's not reality. 1068 01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:49,239 But keeping the tensions between things and beauty doesn't necessitate, you know, large 1069 01:21:49,359 --> 01:21:58,159 rational understandings of our theology. It doesn't demand complicated explanations for correct behavior, 1070 01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:03,680 utilitarianism, deontological ethics, virtue ethics. Anybody can engage with beauty, and 1071 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:06,880 for me, coming out of the New Age, and the psychedelic and the 1072 01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:12,640 occult. It was the beauty that felt so comfortable, because it's one of 1073 01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,840 the things I liked about the visionary art and all the colors and all the 1074 01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:19,840 all the pictures and all the esthetics. Orthodoxy has that, but it's so 1075 01:22:20,159 --> 01:22:25,600 much deeper, and so it offers I think, a really great entry point 1076 01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:29,680 for people that you don't have to know the intricacies of the energy, essence, 1077 01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,359 distinction or iconography to see, oh, wow, this is really beautiful. 1078 01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:35,600 There's something here, and I want to engage more in that and in 1079 01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:41,680 our worldview so mystical and it's so participatory that, as Jonathan and you said, 1080 01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:45,039 it calls people in and I think I think this esthetic dimension is one 1081 01:22:45,079 --> 01:22:48,079 of the most important things that the Orthodox Church can offer to, especially the 1082 01:22:48,079 --> 01:22:53,319 contemporary Western world. Oh. I think it's a great place to end. 1083 01:22:53,359 --> 01:22:56,439 I think we we had. It was great to meet you, Father Trugau. 1084 01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,720 Finally, you know, after all this time, I really have conversation. 1085 01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,119 We're trying to actually plan for people watching. It's not set yet. 1086 01:23:04,119 --> 01:23:10,439 We're trying to plan some event in California where we'll be speaking together. I 1087 01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:13,680 hope we can get that at least. Maybe you don't even know about this, 1088 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,399 but there's people scheming. People are scheming, and so so we'll try 1089 01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:23,199 to hopefully that will come about. And David, thanks for hosting us and 1090 01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,840 kind of prompting the conversation. It was great to talk to both of you 1091 01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,159 and hopefully we'll be able to do that again. Well, thank you Jonathan 1092 01:23:30,159 --> 01:23:32,720 for having us. We really appreciate it. And God bless you and all 1093 01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:35,840 the work you're doing. Thank you so much, Thank you so much. 1094 01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,720 This is great. I want to invite you all to the very first Symbolic 1095 01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,560 World Summit. Over three days, we will finally meet in real time, 1096 01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,680 in real space, and everyone from this little corner of the Internet will be 1097 01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:51,880 there to explore the theme of reclaiming the cosmic image. Of course I will 1098 01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:56,199 be speaking, but there will also be Martin Shaw, who is an amazing 1099 01:23:56,199 --> 01:24:00,319 mythographer, father Stephen Deyong of Lord of Spirit Fai. There will be Richard 1100 01:24:00,399 --> 01:24:05,520 Rowland from the Universal History series, Vesper Stamper, Nicholas Kotar, and Neil 1101 01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:10,880 de Gray that you've all seen on my channel here, and there for entertainment, 1102 01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:15,319 we have everyone's favorite apocalyptic band, the One and Only dirt, poor 1103 01:24:15,399 --> 01:24:19,039 Robbins. This event will be the chance of a lifetime to capture and embrace 1104 01:24:19,159 --> 01:24:24,319 our current moment. So join us from February twenty ninth to March second, 1105 01:24:24,359 --> 01:24:29,920 twenty twenty four in Tarbinspainings, Florida. Visit the Symbolic World dot com slash 1106 01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:35,680 summit for more information and I will see you there. So they watching