WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:07.519 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Girard Reid and from 2 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:15.519 London Lawrence Seglent today on Redefending an ergab It's September and you're probably too young 3 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:20.239 to remember, but in the seventies there was this group called Earth, Wind 4 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:26.320 and Fire. Do you remember Do you remember September? I don't remember September. 5 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:30.480 I know the name of the pan, but that is you're my age. 6 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:34.399 But first of all, from my partner, this podcast is powered by 7 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:40.240 AXPO and international leader in providing sustainable energy solutions for the future in an ordex. 8 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:45.039 AXPO has been a pioneer within trading and origination services for the last twenty 9 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:50.640 years. So earths, win and fire. We talk about solar so fire 10 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:53.359 a lot, we talk about wind a lot, and now we're going to 11 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:58.359 talk about Earth. We're going to talk about Jill Thurmon. Very good and 12 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:00.560 actually I like the way you put it now, Max as we earth, 13 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.519 wind and fire, because the wind and fire is what we talk about all 14 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.760 the time, but we've just we don't talk about Earth at all. And 15 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.359 actually Earth copy is just as important as wind and fire. Right in my 16 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:17.159 opinion, this is the dawn of a new age. We had this geo 17 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:23.040 thermal industry tagging along, but really a little niche been there for decades. 18 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:27.040 And if I look at the US figures, which is the main market, 19 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:33.480 that old technology, which is now called hydrothermal, only represented four you get 20 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.879 one of capacity, so it was like zero one three percent of the global 21 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:41.239 fleet. So nobody was really very interested. And all of a sudden, 22 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.359 things you know, start shaking. Now we see new technologies arriving. I 23 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:53.040 think one of the most important is that they finally adapted the drilling techniques of 24 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.400 the oil and gas industry to joe thermal. Yeah. Well, let's actually 25 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.959 say it's not just the oil and gas industry, it's the shape industry, 26 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.519 right. It really is what we've seen in terms of alcohol decentralized drilling. 27 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.360 The innovation that we've seen in the US in the last decade has been nothing 28 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:16.319 sinse a phenomenal and it's a well to geo terminal and basically nobody stopeder. 29 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:23.680 Yeah. About two months ago there was this big announcement by a startup called 30 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.280 Fervo Energy that they had managed to run a well for one month. They 31 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:35.240 raised one hundred and eighty million dollars from investors, and they drilled at two 32 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:42.520 thousand meters deep and then they made an original drilling of one kilometer and they 33 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:47.840 managed to flow water to do aservoir and it came back at two and the 34 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.240 flow of sixty three lyters per second. I don't know if it's good or 35 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:57.319 not, but if you look at the investors, you have a Stanford, 36 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:04.080 Princeton, Macquarie, be HP, Breakthrough, Capricorn, Congruent, Devon. 37 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.599 Who do you think is the most important of those invest all Devon exactly? 38 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:15.000 And why because they're drilling company, right and they're conventional drilling Sorry when I 39 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:17.840 say conventional, sorry, they're fossil fuel drilling companies. You need their experience 40 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:23.479 such a booles But it's even more than that because Devon Energy is the company 41 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:31.719 who acquired Mitchell Oil and the guy who invented horizontal drilling and fracking is George 42 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:37.280 Mitchell. Yeah, very good. So in fact you've got not only they 43 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:40.080 use the same techniques, but these are the same companies. Cool. In 44 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:47.639 order to talk about those neutral thermal techniques, we have invited Cyndi taf and 45 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:53.400 she has had a thirty five year career in the oil and gas industry, 46 00:03:53.879 --> 00:04:00.840 most recently vpah shell un conventional wells operation. Now she has a startup call 47 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:06.039 of Sage Energy which is focusing on exactly the same techniques. But let's bring 48 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:11.960 around the shows of the conversation. Cindy, welcome to the show. Thank 49 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.160 you. I'm happy to be here. First question, very simple, what 50 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.480 is joe thermal? Literally? What's happening? From a technical point of view, 51 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.879 I guess you drill and what do you get out of the drilling like 52 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:28.600 hot water? How does it work? If you think about the geothermal systems 53 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:31.439 that are out there, you need to think about geology, and so most 54 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.720 of us think about Iceland or the geysers of California when we think about geothermal. 55 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:43.920 So these are geothermal systems that rely on hot aquifers to produce heat and 56 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.240 steam to the surface in order to bring the heat of the earth to the 57 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:53.079 surface to use for electricity or direct heat use. This geothermal has been around 58 00:04:53.120 --> 00:05:00.439 for a hundred years. The challenges it is limited geographically it represents on about 59 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:05.040 two percent of the geothermal resources around the world. Most of the resources are 60 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:10.720 actually contained in what we call hot dry rock, so rock that has the 61 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.639 heat but does not naturally flow water or steam to the surface. So what 62 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:20.560 you have to do in hot dry rock you have to create an artificial reservoir 63 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.959 or think of it as a tank through which you then circulate a working fluid 64 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.879 such as water, to harvest the heat and then to bring that heat to 65 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:35.040 surface. So these are called enhanced geothermal systems, and there's huge opportunity there. 66 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.360 That's the future. So first, what you're telling me is that the 67 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:46.199 classic way of doing joe thermal, whether it's Iceland, California, probably sus 68 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.360 of Italy, Japan, and of course all look like very volcanic area, 69 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:57.240 that type of joe thermal as kind of reaches natural limit. So now if 70 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:01.959 we really want to use the heat of the to produce twenty four seven carbon 71 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:08.120 free energy, we need to use different techniques. And because we use different 72 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:14.279 techniques, we somehow can do it elsewhere. That's correct. The conventional geothermal 73 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.199 resources they're near the ring of fire, they're near volcanoes, so you have 74 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:25.439 to have very specific geological circumstances in order to have those geothermal resources, and 75 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:30.839 so yes, they're limited. Whereas if we can crack the nut on this 76 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:36.000 new geothermal hot dry rock. You can literally put geothermal just about anywhere. 77 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.759 And when I say just about anywhere, anywhere that you can drill to the 78 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:46.600 debt to get the heat in order to be economically viable. So it's all 79 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.839 about debt. Now. If we again have been in Iceland, so I 80 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.040 went to the Blue Lagoon, and I mean, I'm not doing some advertising, 81 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.720 but it's a very nice place. I guess they drill like probably one 82 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.560 or two hundred meters in the case of your hot rocks. How deep would 83 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:08.639 that be? I guess probably more absolutely, So we're targeting drilling for one 84 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:14.319 hundred and fifty degrees see temperatures at the targeted rock or formation. And so 85 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:20.680 these depths are anywhere from three thousand meters to say six thousand meters, and 86 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:29.639 they're all reachable with current oil and gas drilling and completion technologies. Now there 87 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:31.279 is space age drilling out there, and we can talk about that later, 88 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.959 but those are the depths that we're targeting and the temperatures that we're targeting. 89 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:40.199 Can I ask you just to if I look at conventional geotomer, for me, 90 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.680 it's always been about power production. But if I look going forward, 91 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:46.600 we've got one really big issue to solve, and that's actually heat. How 92 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.839 do you decombonize heat? So if I take a district heating system, so 93 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:55.480 like I live outside Berlin, it's the biggest district heating system in Europe, 94 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:58.279 I look at that and go, how the heck are you going to decombonize 95 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.560 that? And looking at my goal, it's difficult, but actually geothermal is 96 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.319 probably the obvious way to do it. So what you're doing is you're creating 97 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:07.759 heat and electricity. Could you talk a little bit about that? Am I 98 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.759 just you're not dreaming because that's what they're doing in Denmark right now in the 99 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.040 second city of Denmark called forgot Urs. I think they're going to put their 100 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:24.800 old district heating system under Joel thermal. Please, Cindy. The biggest challenge 101 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:31.800 for district heating is to build the infrastructure to the buildings. When you pursue 102 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.759 geothermal, okay, you're bringing heat to the surface. If you want to 103 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:41.360 generate electricity, you're actually losing part of that energy in order to turn that 104 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:48.279 heat into electricity. If you use that heat for heat, the efficiency is 105 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:50.960 close to one hundred percent. It's not one hundred percent, but it's very 106 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.840 It's much higher than if you're trying to turn that heat into electricity. Now, 107 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:00.840 Europe is a perfect place to use geothermal for district heating. You know, 108 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.600 if you've got communities that are further spread out, of course, that 109 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.799 would be more of a challenge because then you have to pipe that heat over 110 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:13.039 greater distances and you have a higher chance of losing that heat in the piping. 111 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:16.759 But if you've got a very dense population in a small area, yeah, 112 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.759 district heating is actually a very efficient use of geothermal energy. Can I 113 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.679 ask them? Europe has a lot of district heating systems and I look at 114 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.879 what their solutions are in terms of decomminization. I'm not seeing geo turmal as 115 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.200 part of the solution. So tell me why is that? We believe in 116 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:39.759 what we're working in. We see a huge potential, We just need to 117 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:46.200 get the cost down. It's hard for me to say why geothermal isn't more 118 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.519 prevalent in those go forward plans, and especially for district heating. So again, 119 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.759 geothermal is a perfect solution. You use the heat directly for heating and 120 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:01.679 building heating a greenhouse. It's really a good fit and the cost is going 121 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.919 to be lower than having to turn it into electricity. I'm not sure why 122 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.799 it's not on the radar. Now, you do need to drill a well, 123 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.120 so you would need enough land, say two to three acres, to 124 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.399 set a drilling rig and drill a well. But once that well is drilled, 125 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.480 that drilling rig goes away, and so the footprint still is quite small 126 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:28.080 if you compare it to other renewable energy sources like wind and solar. Can 127 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.679 I ask you then, I think in terms of megawatts, if you were 128 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.399 to drill, what type of energy are you going to get out of that? 129 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:37.159 So you've got this square mile that you're drilling in, what type of 130 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.039 energy do you think can you get out of that on a daily basis or 131 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:45.960 a yearly basis. If we drill to bottom hole temperature of one fifty to 132 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.279 two hundred degrees C. Again, this is the temperature at the bottom of 133 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.440 the well, depending on the ambient temperature, depending on the formation, depending 134 00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:01.320 on the well design. We're thinking about three megawatt net pacity your output per 135 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:07.399 well. Now, if you want to scale to say fifty megawatts, then 136 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:13.759 you would drill eighteen to twenty wells those wells would be very closely spaced on 137 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.360 surface, so ten feet apart, which actually enables you to use what we 138 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.279 call a walking rig where you don't have to completely disassemble the rig to move 139 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.519 from well to well, So you could use a walking rigs, so your 140 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:33.000 operational efficiencies are very high. That fifty megawatt well footprint is about an acre 141 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.879 and a half and then if you add the power plant, you're talking about 142 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.639 another two and a half acres. So for less than five acres we could 143 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:46.600 scale to, for example, fifty megawatts, and that's electric, that's fifty 144 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:52.120 megawatts electric. For thermal that would be one hundred and fifty thermal megawatts, 145 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:58.159 because you're again you're losing efficiencies as you convert the heat to electricity versus using 146 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.720 it for direct heating. For our listeners, who doesn't know what's an acre, 147 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.519 it's basically a football field. It's pretty good. Within five football field 148 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.600 you manage to pack that much energy, that's really excellent, which means it 149 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:18.919 can be made relatively close to those big city centers. What we've seen over 150 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:24.519 the years are various scheme of government support, and of course in the US, 151 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.159 now you've got the IRA so this, I mean, it looks like 152 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.720 governments in general are kind of in favor. So do you think you have 153 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.600 sufficient whether it's tax credit or subsidies or whatever to scale up your industry or 154 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.000 you need more? Now that's a great question. I mean, the Inflation 155 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:50.720 Reduction Act has been very beneficial for the first time put geothermal on par with 156 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:56.200 wind and solar. Now, you could argue to geothermal be better than par 157 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.200 with wind and solar because wind and solar has a fifteen twenty year headstart on 158 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:07.320 us. But okay, we're now on par with these tax incentives for wind 159 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:13.519 and solar. What I have seen in different US government says Department of Energy 160 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:20.919 funding opportunities, is that there's other renewable energy technologies such as direct air capture 161 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:26.679 or ccs that tend to get more funding kind of in the billions, versus 162 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:31.480 geothermal seems to get it in the millions. So our business plan is we 163 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.519 want to be successful regardless of tax incentives from the US government, because that's 164 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.000 it's the way you're going to survive long term. But of course, in 165 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.399 the near term, as we're developing technologies, we're installing first of a kind 166 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:48.879 demonstration plants. Those incentives are quite helpful because before you get to scale, 167 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.559 those types of incentives help you get over that financial harm. Yeah, I 168 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.679 would say the Inflation Reduction Act has done a lot for geothermal and for energy 169 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.080 storage. We also do energy storage deep in the earth, and for the 170 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.639 first time, it's allowed you to do energy storage and not necessarily have to 171 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:11.639 pair it with another technology. So you can do it independent of different types 172 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:16.200 of technologies, or you can pick and choose which technologies you want to pair 173 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.159 it with. Could you dig into that when you say energy storage, what 174 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.080 type of to this is heat storage? Is it? So what we're doing 175 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:30.679 is we have a long duration energy storage solution that we can actually deliver now 176 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:37.879 and at a cost that is competitive with pumped hydro storage and with lithium ion 177 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:45.320 batteries for any duration greater than four hours. If you guys think about pumped 178 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.480 hydro storage, that's when you take water from the bottom of a mountain, 179 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.559 you pump it to the top of the mountain, and you've got that stored 180 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.559 energy of the water at the top of the mountain, and then when demand 181 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.919 peaks, you flow that water down the mounta mountain and you produce energy or 182 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.080 electricity through a pelt and turbine. We're doing that, but we're doing it 183 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.320 down instead of up. We're doing it in the earth. We're drilling a 184 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:16.840 well. We're using a downward oriented fracturing technology that it's different from the oil 185 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:22.159 and gas industry, but it creates again an artificial tank in the rock, 186 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:28.879 and then when the energy demand is low, you use that electricity to power 187 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:35.039 a electric pump pump water into that fracture. That fracture actually acts like a 188 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.639 balloon, and it balloons and stores that water and it stores it under pressure, 189 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.519 and then you close the valve in at the surface of the well. 190 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:50.039 And then when that electricity demand peaks, you open that valve and that fractures 191 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.799 wanting to naturally close, and it jettisons that water back to surface under a 192 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:00.279 huge amount of force, which you can then put through a Elton turbine again 193 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:07.159 and create electricity. So again it's already cheaper than pump hydrot storage, and 194 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.159 for durations greater than four hours, it'll beat lithium ion batteries. And we 195 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.159 have line of sight to beat natural gas speaker plants. When gas is two 196 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.679 dollars in mcf, we can beat gas speaker plants now at four dollars in 197 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.559 mcf, but we have a line of sight to be able to beat them 198 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.879 at two dollars in mcf. And then let me add one more thing, 199 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.960 our long duration storage. We can pump in and store for seven hours and 200 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:37.440 then we can produce that stored energy for seventeen So if you imagine pairing that 201 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:42.399 with solar, you can actually turn solar into base load energy. Wow wow, 202 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.919 wow wow wow. I like what I hear the Cindy. What is 203 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:53.320 very clear is drilling is drilling part and yourself you've done some of your carry 204 00:16:53.320 --> 00:17:00.759 in the oil and gas industry, So how important it is your technical collaboration 205 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.000 with the oil and gas industry, you know, using them know how in 206 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:11.880 terms of geological formation out of three D imaging and drilling techniques, extraction techniques 207 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:18.240 of doing wells putting well together? How is it pair? Please? Traditionally 208 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.880 the oil and gas industry has not been involved in geothermal. There's been very 209 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:29.519 little inter reaction between the geothermal and the oil and gas industry. But if 210 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.279 you think about it, what we're doing in geothermal is the same thing as 211 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.920 oil and gas. We're drilling a well for a resource. However, in 212 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:45.240 this case, that resource is heat. So all of the same skill sets 213 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:52.039 that are needed in oil and gas are needed in geothermal drilling, subsurface characterization, 214 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:59.160 supply chain, capital efficiency optimization. What the oil and gas industry can 215 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.440 bring is the oil gas industry in the US alone will drill about twenty thousand 216 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:10.200 wells a year, whereas the geothermal industry globally will drill maybe a couple of 217 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.920 handfuls of wells, And so the oil and gas industry can really bring a 218 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:21.519 lot of expertise in optimizing that well design and that well cost and bringing that 219 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:25.200 cost down. So that's one thing we're excited to be able to bring to 220 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.880 geothermal. And from a permitting and regulation point of view, do you kind 221 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:36.839 of piggyback on the oil or gas regulation in terms of permitting or is it 222 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.319 more complex in other world? Does it make sense to drill in oil states 223 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:47.720 or none other states? It really depends on each state. But you're spot 224 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.920 on in that in most of the states where you have oil and gas drilling, 225 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:57.640 the permitting for geothermal actually falls under that same regulatory agency. So in 226 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.720 Texas, for example, oil and gas drilling and geothermal drilling all reside under 227 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.880 the Texas Railroad Commission, which is the regulatory body here in Texas. In 228 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.680 Louisiana, where there's a lot of oil and gas drilling, it's also the 229 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:18.480 same regulatory body. So it's typically going to be under the same regulatory body 230 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:22.920 because you really are doing the same thing. You're drilling a well, and 231 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.160 again it's just for a different resource. Now, where permitting gets tough, 232 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.079 at least in the US, is when we get on federal lands. The 233 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:37.119 permitting on federal lands can take five years, whereas the permitting naturally in a 234 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.240 state that has done oil and gas drilling and they're comfortable with the technologies and 235 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.920 the due diligence, you can get a permit in a matter of a few 236 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.839 weeks or a few months. And Sindy, can I ask you this. 237 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:53.119 I love new technologies, and what I've been reading a little bit about is 238 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.519 plasma drilling, and I look at that and I go, that could be 239 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.480 a real revolution. I'd love to hear your thoughts and that maybe explain what 240 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.960 it is is first, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts. There's 241 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:07.400 definitely some space age drilling technologies out there, there's plasma, there's millimeter wave 242 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:14.359 drilling. You know, there are companies that are working on these space age 243 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:19.960 technologies and they're trying to drill deeper, hotter, faster. We love what 244 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.640 they're doing. I mean, we know drilling very well. Who's doing plasma 245 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.200 drilling. We know Carlos and his team at Quays very well. They're doing 246 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:33.880 the millimeter wave drilling. We are watching them with excitement and interest, and 247 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.119 you know, once they've crack that nut, we want to ride on their 248 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.839 coattails and install geothermal deeper and hotter. But quite frankly, there are a 249 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.359 few years out. So what we want to do is be able to use 250 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.519 existing oil and gas equipment and know how to scale geothermal now and then as 251 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.240 these guys are figuring out how to drill deeper and hotter, then move into 252 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:03.880 that area once that has been and actually solved and commercialized. Talking about new 253 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:10.240 tech, we read also about the loop that company called evore. Is that 254 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:15.920 something you understand or you're close to that technology? We understand what John and 255 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.319 his team it ever are doing. So that's called closed loop geothermal or some 256 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:27.039 people call it ags advanced geothermal systems. So the definition of closed loop geothermal 257 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:33.440 is that the working fluid that you're using down hole to harvest the heat from 258 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:38.079 the earth does not come in contact with the rock. It's kept in pipe. 259 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:45.000 The challenges that we see with this technology is that in order to harvest 260 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.960 heat from the earth, you need huge surface area. So if you think 261 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:56.880 about if you have a fracture that's a kilometer high and three hundred meters long, 262 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.880 and it's the aperture, the opening is say three milimeters, and just 263 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:06.519 think about two very huge hot plates, So you've got a huge amount of 264 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:12.359 surface area for that heat transfer. Whereas if you're trying to rely on a 265 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:18.279 pipe system and an oil and gas or in geothermal, a large size pipe 266 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.480 is nine and five eight cents or ten inch, let's say ten inch. 267 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.519 If you cut that ten inch pipe down the middle and you kind of open 268 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.319 it up, if you can imagine that surface area, you're going to need 269 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:36.680 thousands of feet of well bore in order to have the same surface area that 270 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:41.759 you would have in that fracture that I'm describing. That's two hot plates that 271 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.759 are very large. And so the challenge with closed loop is the economics. 272 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:51.200 You know it, can it be cost effective to drill these thousands of feet 273 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:56.000 and then turn that into electricity. What will that be cost competitive with wind 274 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.079 and solar and natural gas? That I think that is the challenge, Cindy. 275 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:04.279 I understand conventional okay, that's one thing. Understand space age, and 276 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.559 you're kind of in the middle advanced geo thermal. So why do you think 277 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:17.160 it's the right hoss on which to bet? Conventional geothermal geographically limited? New 278 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.759 geothermal is not geographically limited. However, the challenge is to get the cost 279 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.359 down. We need to get the cost down to be competitive with wind, 280 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:29.519 solar, natural gas, and coal. And it can be a sexy new 281 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.160 energy source, but it has to be cost competitive, and so that is 282 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.799 what the industry needs to focus on. We need to basically look at technologies 283 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.960 in both the well designed space and in the power plant space to drive costs 284 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.440 down and to improve efficiency so that we can deliver a unit cost of energy 285 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:55.160 at a lower cost that is competitive with the existing energies out there. Sindy, 286 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.960 can you just get out of crystal ball and tell us how you think 287 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:03.720 the geotermine industry will look like In twenty thirty, energy demand has doubled for 288 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:08.400 the past twenty five years. It's expected to double again over the next twenty 289 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.839 five years. Electrification in both industry and household is going up. Geothermal and 290 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:22.920 energy storage in synergies with wind and solar, is going to be a very 291 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.480 prevalent part of the energy solution in twenty thirty. I would say it's going 292 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.599 to count for more than thirty percent. Wow, that's a big statement. 293 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.880 I like it. I like it, and I like it as well because 294 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.359 I remember I did the prediction that this decade would be the decade of Joe 295 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:42.079 Thumbalso, Cindy, I thank you very much because you've brought a mode to 296 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:51.359 my empty gun. I wish you the best for your project, your company, 297 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.759 and we'll put all the details in the show notes. Thank you very 298 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.119 much, Indy. I listened to Geo turmal Is. It's the renewables that 299 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.319 we never talked about. So it's really good to have you on the show 300 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:06.440 and to talk about geotarma right and the possibilities around it. Yeah, thanks 301 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.559 guys, Thanks thanks for giving us a platform to talk about geothermal and energy 302 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:15.319 storage. Don't forget energy storage deep in the Earth is going to revolutionize wind, 303 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.480 solar and the way we do energy storage for the utility grade types of 304 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.880 energies. Absolutely, Thank you, Cindy, thank you so much. So 305 00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:29.359 Jab, about two years ago I made the prediction that that would be the 306 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:33.119 decade of Joe Turman and you laugh at my face? Are you still laughing, 307 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.160 Jahab, Yeah, I am, because I think it's going to take 308 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.960 a little bit longer. I think the next decade it's going to be the 309 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.160 decade of Geotarma. No, there's no doubt, Lron, It's Geotarma is 310 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.079 going to be very important. But I think it really is going to be 311 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.960 the two thousand charities before it really kicks off. But I might be wrong. 312 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.240 I hope I'm wrong actually, because we do need it because at the 313 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.279 end of the day, the energy transition up to now has been about decarbonizing 314 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:03.240 electricity. We now need to decomboniz We need these So geo term is a 315 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.039 great way to get your hands on these, okay somethings, as you can 316 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:07.839 get a chance on electricity as well from me. So I hope you're right. 317 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:14.519 It seems that we have find a way to drill for advance sure ternel 318 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.400 pretty much everywhere the problems are going to be above the ground. The problems 319 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:23.039 are going to be the regulators. Now, if you're in Texas or Coloma, 320 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.359 you know you can't reel everything you want. But if you are in 321 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:32.000 your op, maybe the regulator is going to be much more fearful of giving 322 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.440 you some committing And the second is the expertise, the technical expertise. In 323 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.160 the US they have that type of expertise. We probably don't have it in 324 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.559 Europe. So in fact we would need that adventure tunel in your ope. 325 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:51.559 But between the regulators and the lack of technical expertise, I am really afraid 326 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.200 that we're not going to benefit from those advancements. Well, I'm going to 327 00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:57.640 tell you something which I didn't tell you before, laur On, which is 328 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.920 I'm going to get involved in a geothermal project development business in Germany doing exactly 329 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.680 this. And actually I just want to say why. It's because you've got 330 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.759 outside of Berlin. You had but by the way, Germany actually had some 331 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.279 shale gastrilin taking place, which people don't know about it because you can call 332 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.920 it something else. The shale gass is a nasty word, but actually you 333 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.400 can reuse these wells quite interesting. So I just say to you you never 334 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:23.599 know, you might be right. No, no, no, I want 335 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.799 to be wrong. You know. I want the European to don't lose their 336 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:36.519 mind and money on hydrogen and nuclear because earth wind and fire is there for 337 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:41.079 the taking. Four seven. I'm sorry. I really do like your vision. 338 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:42.359 I like the way you put earth, wind and fire, and I 339 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.359 would say, well, listen, we're already going to use earth because listen, 340 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:51.599 just basic geothermal heat pumps work can work on you know, the ground 341 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.319 source heat pumps. That's what they're using. You're using the difference between the 342 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.880 temperature and the air and the temperature and the ground for heat pumps. But 343 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.559 actually what you're also talking about is doing it at a greater distance. And 344 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:06.319 I think that's going to happen, because how else are you going to decarbonize 345 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:11.559 industry. It makes so much more sense to me that you can decentralize drill 346 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.480 at particularly industrial locations, and then you get low cost electricity, and each 347 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:21.039 makes sense. Wrong, So I hope you're right on that respect. I 348 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:25.400 hope you're also right that the European Union and the rest of the government's actually 349 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:30.200 don't inhibit this development, and that we need to be very careful that we 350 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.079 jump on the wrong bandwagon. So basically what you're saying is we need to 351 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:41.519 see Texans in Europeans fits because a lot of those companies are pushed by entrepreneurs. 352 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.720 Yeah, exactly, exactly, risk takers, right, Yeah, you 353 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:51.720 know like Cindy or you know Team letting out of Energy. These are entrepreneurs. 354 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:55.640 They are back with a lot of money. That's not really a model 355 00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.240 sor so I hope I'm wrong. Maybe just play on that because what's very 356 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.480 interesting is if you've got to Texas today, you've got a thousand drilling companies. 357 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.799 Right, let's just realize a thousand companies that are out there trying to 358 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.359 sort of explore. Well, actually, in Europe we do something similar as 359 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.799 well, which are solar and wind developers. That's what they are as well. 360 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:18.400 They're also the entrepreneurs, I hope, and I'm talking to the big 361 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.160 solar wind developers that are out there that they go and do this, and 362 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:22.720 they go and sort of say this and that's going and take a risk at 363 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.839 this. You know, that's what we need. So this is an hopefull 364 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:32.920 episode. Yeah, of course, course course course, cause we thank Acpool 365 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.599 for suppotting our show. Thank you again. Guys, thank you very much 366 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.160 and really you're so Cindy, very gracious lady. Will we share the best? 367 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.000 Yeah? Yeah absolutely and shall I talk to you in two weeks time? 368 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.279 Look forward to my friend, look forward to it. Thank you for 369 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:53.960 listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on Apple 370 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:59.359 Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.