1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,559 You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network and now it's time for the Paranormal 2 00:00:05,599 --> 00:01:04,079 Peep Show. Hi, Welcome to the Paranormal Peek Show on the Paranormal UK 3 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:10,120 Radio Network with myself. New award and returning is Andy Chaplain. Andy, 4 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:14,079 welcome back and how are you pretty good? Neil? I'm fully dosed up 5 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,680 on all the spiced pumpkin a soup that you mentioned in the last episode that 6 00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:22,400 I watched with Ben Emlyn James, and he did a very good job on 7 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:26,760 that. I've had an absolutely crazy, manic Halloween. It seems like ages 8 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,239 since we last spoke. I've just been going here, there, and everywhere, 9 00:01:30,239 --> 00:01:33,560 And much as I love Halloween, I'm kind of glad it's all over 10 00:01:33,599 --> 00:01:37,959 now because I've been doing events. I've been doing zombie things, scare mazes, 11 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,879 and having fun with a wonderful girl that's entered my life called Bunny. 12 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:47,680 I won't had a full name, but nicknamed Bunny. And yeah, we're 13 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:51,560 just kind of going here, there and everywhere, and that should be an 14 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:55,640 interesting future because I've got a few plans ahead of us. Oh excellent, 15 00:01:55,719 --> 00:01:57,280 Oh well, good luck with that. Yeah. Ben mentioned something about being 16 00:01:57,319 --> 00:02:01,959 loved up or something he chose. But yeah, Ben did a great job 17 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,599 co hosting. But I expected him to because he's naturally a very good guest 18 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,319 anyway, and he's always got a lot to talking about. And one thing 19 00:02:09,319 --> 00:02:13,240 that really kind of always gets me with Ben is that he comes out with 20 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:17,080 this whole multitudes of words that I've never heard before. He flucks them from 21 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,759 the ethan and thinking got them, like, what given this an example? 22 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:29,240 Oh, I can't remember. He just comes over like some words like I 23 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,719 just can't remember. That's to review it right down. It's lots of scientific 24 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,479 y stuff, you know. It really sort of bends my brain a bit 25 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,639 and thinking what the hell does that mean? You know. But yeah, 26 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,360 he's very good. He can hold his own on those sorts of discussions. 27 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,680 And Ben's this is why we have Ben on regularly because he's such a good 28 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:50,680 guest and also a good equally co hosts. And he also obviously he hosts 29 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,360 Sara Apollo Detectives and we've just done a recent episode of that actually, which 30 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,840 I'm in the middle of editing now. So that's where we had Jarond White 31 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,479 talking with a Shuttle astronaut, which was an interesting debate. So I'll put 32 00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:07,039 the link in the description under our show for this one if anyone wants to 33 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,560 watch that. So, yeah, you've had a good, good Halloween then, 34 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:14,080 so you're come and swinging around into the Christmas mode now, so you've 35 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,879 been busy with your psychic evenings and things. Yeah, doing a lot of 36 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,879 psychic events here, there and everywhere. I was kind of winding down now 37 00:03:21,879 --> 00:03:27,639 a little bit. And funny enough, Neil close to us in a town 38 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,159 called Hoddiston or close to me, there's a theater there that's going to be 39 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:38,960 doing Most Haunted live the stage show. This was hugely controversial. I mean 40 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:44,000 I got into the whole psychic thing kind of sort of late nineties, early 41 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,479 two thousands, and that was when Derek Acora was doing show called Predictions on 42 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,599 Sky and when Most Haunted first came out and was very kind of like rudimentary 43 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,919 in the beginning and back in the very very first episodes, it was actually 44 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,879 quite good. I thought Most Taunts was kind of fairly balanced and fairly decent. 45 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,120 It then became controversial, didn't it, because there's accusations of faking it. 46 00:04:06,719 --> 00:04:13,080 So as with most things in the kind of media and TV, world. 47 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,720 It starts off, but then they want it bigger and better and bigger 48 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,399 and better and more bizarre and more well, and so over time you'd see 49 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:24,480 Derek Acora a kind of getting more possessed many and all this kind of thing, 50 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,199 and it became a little bit of a laughing stock kind of and then 51 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,879 it's all faded out, didn't it. And the American shows started coming along, 52 00:04:31,959 --> 00:04:36,360 like Taps and all that kind of thing, ghost Hunters with Zach and 53 00:04:36,439 --> 00:04:44,519 his crazy hair. But yeah, this Most Taunted Live is coming around the 54 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:49,600 Spotlight Theater in Broxbourn. I think it's nineteenth of November. I'm going to 55 00:04:49,639 --> 00:04:54,759 it with a couple of friends of mine and we're going to see what's going 56 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,279 to happen. Apparently at the end of it there's going to be a seance. 57 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,560 Fantastic. It'd be interesting to see if they kind of like, say, 58 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,160 are there any mediums in the audience, and then if there are, 59 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:12,160 be like me and yeah, see what happens, and will be quite interesting 60 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:15,399 as well, because although I'm in the mediumistic kind of like world myself, 61 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:17,920 I do actually have like a skeptics or a scientific hat as well. So 62 00:05:17,959 --> 00:05:21,079 I'm going to be trying to spot to see if they're setting anything up or 63 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:26,000 if they've got any shenanigans going on, and if they are, then I 64 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,319 will be reporting back. Wow, maybe you can grab someone from an interview. 65 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,920 Yeah, yeah, but someone who is scientific and with a bit of 66 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,160 a mediumistic slant as well as our guest tonight. That's Chris Conley joining us. 67 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:45,120 Welcome Chris, are you there, hey, Chris, I am indeed, 68 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,480 Thank you, Neil Andrew Brown invitation, thank you for joining us. 69 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:55,160 So we just heard Andy. They're talking about the most Haunted live on stage 70 00:05:55,199 --> 00:05:59,759 and Andy wonders if there's going to be any kind of rigging of the ghost 71 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:02,399 person. Do you think you'd be a guy that would be qualified with your 72 00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:08,279 scientific, technical background and mediumistic background to kind of maybe pick up on that 73 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:11,240 sort of stuff. Well, I kind of hope, So, I kind 74 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,279 of hope. So. I mean, I think with anything to do with 75 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:20,560 entertainment, there's always an element of saying make believe involved. So, as 76 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,079 I said, it'll be interesting to see what and it comes back with. 77 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,439 Yeah. So to give people a bit more information about you, You've got 78 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,279 a sort of an engineer of science background, haven't you. In the space, 79 00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:39,920 the UK space industry. Correct. Yes, so I come from an 80 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:47,160 engineering background thirty five years as an engineer, primarily as a research engineer design 81 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:55,839 products for various various LAWD buy industries. The last twelve years has been the 82 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,399 GO space industry, involved with the design of imaging technology for what we call 83 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:10,040 Earth observation missions, and more recently I'm involved in the writing and the development 84 00:07:10,079 --> 00:07:15,160 of software out for the missions used on the satellites and on the spacecraft. 85 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,600 Wow. But yeah, so as a background, but I also have a 86 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:26,680 background in psychology own cart level about eighteen months or a fingers crossed from completing 87 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:35,480 my doctorate in psychology, where I'm researching the mental processes or the psychology and 88 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:41,199 the coptive process is used by mediums to commune with the spirit world. You 89 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,959 know that my background is really because of the science I'm interested in is to 90 00:07:45,959 --> 00:07:53,000 try and try and demystify as much as possible mediumship because, as we were 91 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,360 discussing, only also a medium for the last twenty five years as well, 92 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,000 So you know, I come from it from both, from both perspectives. 93 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:05,920 It's kind of useful because obviously I've got a lot of willing colleagues and friends 94 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:11,800 willing to put themselves through all the trauer and of being involved in the experiments 95 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,879 that I'm conducting and so forth. So do you work with people like Dr 96 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,959 Kerr and O'Keeffe and Chris French and they are they I would say they are 97 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:31,440 more on the skeptics side. But there are a lot of researchers and academics 98 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:35,360 I do work with who, let's us say, I would say, I'm 99 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:43,159 more open minded about the research. And actually it was working with a researcher 100 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:48,159 from Northampton University, professor Chris Row, a psychology professor, and a group 101 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,080 of his PhD students that encouraged me to actually go on to do a master's 102 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:01,080 in psychology and the PhD because I realized talking to them there were things that 103 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,000 they were saying. They'd been researching mediumship for many years. There were things 104 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,519 they were saying that they can understand, and from a spiritualist perspective, I 105 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,360 could understand, you know, where they were coming from. But I thought, 106 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,000 you know, to be able to engage with researchers, you know, 107 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,080 I thought it would be good to certain go and get my own as soon 108 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,879 as off the shelf. So to speak, go and get my own PhD, 109 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,159 my own doctorate, and so I can understand the perspective they come from 110 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,039 and be able to many sort of like answer their questions from a spiritualist perspective, 111 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,519 from a media's perspective a degree that they would be able to understand, 112 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,639 and so forth. When you come across kind of like I suppose mainstream or 113 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:54,279 skeptical viewpoints regarding mediumship, how can I put this? Is there kind of 114 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,440 like a bias or an emphasis for you to go along with it and believe 115 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,799 it? Or do they or is it a case of you find your own 116 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,480 solutions, your own kind of like, uh, I don't know what the 117 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:11,559 right word thesis or something. Do they do they allow you to freethink within 118 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,039 your your masters and your doctors or is it kind of you must think this 119 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,679 way and if you don't then those at the end of the At the end 120 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,440 of the day, the doctorate is is self governed by myself, right you 121 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:31,879 know? And and the supervisors that I have, which are from Kenterrey Christ 122 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,480 Church University in Kent, well two supervisors there. One is a member of 123 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,600 the Society for Psychical Research, has been a member for many years and has 124 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:48,399 actually a past editor of their journal, and another supervisor I have is an 125 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:54,000 expert in cognitive psychology. Again, you know, they're there. We really 126 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,480 need to support me through the process to so I can understand if like thetistical 127 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:05,480 methods and research methodologies and things like that, the actual topic itself. You 128 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,200 know, they're they're you know, they're interested in and willing to support as 129 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:15,320 we go along. And you'll find interestingly that maybe I've just been very fortunate, 130 00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:20,279 but you know a lot of the researchers and academics have come across are 131 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:28,440 very supportive of survival. And actually what people have realized is there is a 132 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,639 humongous amount of literature out there. The research lister in peur of view journals 133 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,759 that actually support that, you know what mediums claim to be doing. You 134 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:45,000 know that there's absolutely an abundance of literature there. See what would you would 135 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:50,120 you say, roughly speaking within the psychology world, is the percentage of believers 136 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,000 versus skeptics? I would I would say, I wouldn't say believers versus skeptics. 137 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:00,159 You would probably say who would be more willing to be open minded to 138 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,960 those that will would light to follow the sort of mainstream narrative, and it 139 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:13,440 really comes down to the scientist's world view here, seeing are they willing to 140 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,799 accept that, you know, if they're example, know, if they're a 141 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:22,000 realist, you know, they would accept that everything that you see is all 142 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:28,440 there is. You know, I view myself more for a critical realist, 143 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,679 where I say, well, you know, I genuinely believe there is nothing 144 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:39,360 paranormal. I believe eventually we would understand, you know, because we talk 145 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,000 about mediumship under the field of parapsychology and I kind of cringe a little bit 146 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:52,559 because para seems to suggest it's not normal, beyond the normal understanding, and 147 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,000 and I just think, well, no, it's just we don't understand it. 148 00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:01,000 They'll be no. Mediumship is cross cultural, across the ages, you 149 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:05,919 know, across time, and so it's not nothing. There's nothing admirable about 150 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,360 it. It's just that we don't understand it. And I do feel that, 151 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:13,879 you know, as a scientist alone say, you know that it's encomfort 152 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,399 upon us to be open minded to anything. You know, for example, 153 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:24,279 we were talking earlier about did we go to the moon and things like that, 154 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,120 right, and you know, I'm all the mindset we did, but 155 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,639 there is no if there was sufficient evidence to suggest we didn't. You know, 156 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,039 I can't be a scientist and say no, no, no, no, 157 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,919 that's wrong. You know, if the evidence seems suggesting the alternative, 158 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:43,799 do you know what I mean? And it's where you know, it depends 159 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:50,519 on your worldview and whether you are a scientist or whether you're just so engrossed 160 00:13:50,639 --> 00:14:00,759 in maybe should we say biases because of agendas that you have that's you from 161 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,320 being open and mind from the other the wider view of things. Yeah, 162 00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:09,440 I think you're right, and I think interestingly, it's the same similar kind 163 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:15,120 of argument that people like for instance, Professor Chris French or doctor kan A 164 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:22,559 Keiford present in the people people who believe in the paranormal, supernatural, ghost 165 00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:26,600 world will always kind of like have a bias looking for evidence that there is 166 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:31,399 something there because that's what they already believe. And so anything that happens, 167 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,960 you know, whether a stone is thrown, or there's a knock at the 168 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,919 glass of the pane of window or something forward of a table, their bias 169 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,039 is that it must be supernatural. But that does work the other way. 170 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:46,240 If you've got a pre disposition to believe that everything's not in any way supernatural. 171 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,080 You will always be looking for an explanation, even if it's like a 172 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:56,320 bizarre explanation, to rationalize that it must not be paranormal, if that makes 173 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,840 sense. Absolutely, you have this confirmation by that you will find things that 174 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:11,240 satisfy what you're predisposed to believe or your beliefs. Absolutely, and now, 175 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,799 and this is where as scientists we should be open minded and we should be 176 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,519 mindful that you know, the evidence, we follow the evidence of follow the 177 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:26,879 data and not follow our beliefs, you know. And so you know in 178 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:31,120 my doctorate, you know, I have to be open in the thesis, 179 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,200 in the in the thesis and saying you know, this is my position. 180 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,799 No, I've got to be open and say, look, I come promise 181 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:41,399 some of a spiritualist perspective. I'm I'm assuming the past literature on mediums is 182 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,639 accurate, you know, that support mediums and support what we do. And 183 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:50,559 there is an abundance of literature out there that does that, and I have 184 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:56,399 to assume that is correct. But there is a possibility is not. You 185 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,080 know, I mean, in my in the research I'm doing, you know, 186 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,559 I was you know, I had a nice clear sort of timeline and 187 00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:06,559 plant while I was hoping to achieve, but very quickly in the first set 188 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:10,720 of experiments, I found that the thing that didn't support and it's and I 189 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,720 had to go off on a tangent and find something else. But that's the 190 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:18,200 whole point of what scientific research is about. It's not saying I'm going to 191 00:16:18,279 --> 00:16:22,200 find this. It's about I need to be open, I need to conduct 192 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,360 your spirit because I'm interested in explaining what's going on here. But I can 193 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:33,000 only allow the data to inform my next conclusion or my next experiments. You 194 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,879 know. But you know, and you've got to remember that a lot of 195 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:47,120 these academical researchers have jobs. You know, they have positions in respectable sort 196 00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:53,720 of universities, and you know and know it still isn't a career to move 197 00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:59,039 into the field of parapsychology, you know, in terms of it's not really 198 00:16:59,039 --> 00:17:02,679 going to enhance your career. So when you have skeptics, you know, 199 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,920 it must be very hard for someone who comes out and says, you know, 200 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,960 there is absolutely nothing, the area is all fantasy, it's all you 201 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,240 wishful thinking on the median's perspective, or even you know, some of the 202 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:21,279 some of the literature seems to suggest that that people who believe in the paranorl 203 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,359 or or who are mediums have some sort of cognitive deficit. You know, 204 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,759 we're basically unable to think scientifically or unable to think critically, you know, 205 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:34,440 and things like that. And it's like, if you present that and you 206 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:41,160 have that stance and you create a network of colleagues, the network of friends 207 00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:48,079 who then scaffold that position that you're holding, it's got to be difficult for 208 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,279 them to change change position, do you know what I mean? And so 209 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:56,079 you know, it's it's it's human nature. It's all human behavior, human 210 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:02,200 nature, and all sort of like the unconscious by we try to go through 211 00:18:02,279 --> 00:18:07,720 life to try and relieve any possible conflicts, internal conflict dissonance, can call 212 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:14,880 it stick with the sort of beliefs that fit fiss ole world view, I'd 213 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,079 agree. I mean, the thing is I entered the kind of like the 214 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:23,039 spiritual and the psychic world probably early two thousand by watching shows like Most Taunted, 215 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,400 Predictions, etc. That bumped me off into kind of like the or 216 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,359 springboard of me off I should say, into the world of kind of like 217 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,200 spiritualism and that kind of thing. However, I've always kept this scientific hat 218 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,359 on in terms of is there another logical explanation. So, for instance, 219 00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:41,640 and Neil knows about this, when I had like a shadow man incident where 220 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:47,880 I walked along a canal path and there was very clearly a human shape, 221 00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:52,559 a dark figure with a torso in a head, and it kind of as 222 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:55,920 I was walking past it and melted into the fence, into the metal fence, 223 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,720 that just melted away. I tried to recreate that. So in the 224 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:03,160 moment and as it happened, obviously obviously this is impossible. It wasn't a 225 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,400 physical person because there was nobody there. I tried to recreate it. I 226 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,440 was because this was twilight, so I tried to recreate it waiting for a 227 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,000 car to come along. There was a road kind of like on the other 228 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:19,279 side of this, and the car headlights made the shadows move kind of through 229 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:22,599 the through the metal fence. You could see the shadows both, and I 230 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,000 was kind of like to shift in my position. Was it kind of like 231 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,000 as I was moving, was something else kind of moving at the same time 232 00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:33,720 was the car headlights doing? And I couldn't recreate it. But the whole 233 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,680 point of this is kind of what I was trying to find a logical explanation 234 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,480 for what I was seeing and I couldn't find it. Yeah. Absolutely, 235 00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:45,039 and you know, and this is something that the spirit world tell us all 236 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,880 the time these do you get a communication, do you have an experience and 237 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,039 sort of phenomena from the spirit world and you believe it's the spirit world? 238 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:59,319 But Arsens repregated, that's interesting, Arsen's replicated, because if it is the 239 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,839 spirit world, they will prove it to you. You know. If it's 240 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,519 not, then the chances why not happen again, you know, but you 241 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,000 know the spirit world or intelligence, you know, so you know, ask 242 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:15,359 them to try and replicate it again. No, if it's if it is 243 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:22,599 generally some sort of spirit phenomena, that's that's manifests there. Yeah, to 244 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,359 obviously, But you were you were a skeptical person in the beginning though when 245 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,640 you got involved in all this, wasn't that Yeah, I mean I was. 246 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:34,839 I didn't really think much about it. I mean, it seems being 247 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:40,640 involved in spirituals and lie knowing you speak to family members and they and they 248 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:44,599 and they remind you that you know that You've always that. I've always had 249 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,279 some type of shall we say, weirdness as I like to as they like 250 00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:52,759 to put it, so to speak, you know, back when I was 251 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,519 a toddler about four years old and so forth. But you know, it's 252 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,599 one of these things and that you just you know, you've got to get 253 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,039 you gotta work, you've got to go to school, you go to college, 254 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:03,559 you got a union, you got to work, you know, and 255 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,240 that sort of thing is these things should put the back of your mind and 256 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,839 get on with things. But it was it was just literally a chance visit 257 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:19,039 at our local Spirituous church at graves End in North Kent that prompted this whole 258 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:27,079 interest where again. And it was rather curious because I got a communication myself 259 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:33,960 from the medium, and I mean I was very skeptical, you know, 260 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,440 like you are. I mean, graves In church is sort of not aware. 261 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,680 It's like a townhouse. It's like an old Victorian sort of townhouse. 262 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:45,680 And so you've got you go in at the ground go with at the ground 263 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:51,279 level, and that's where the church is. They can diverted upstairs into a 264 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:53,759 flat and then you go down says in the basement, and that's a tea 265 00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:57,839 room. Well, you know, so you go in and and you have 266 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,119 this communication with the service and so forth. And I got out I've got 267 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,640 a communication from a relative that one and I thought, well, that's really 268 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,920 kind of cool. So I went down afterwards to speak to the medium and 269 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,039 they sort of like carried the communication all and and it was it was interesting 270 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:19,920 because what they were saying was, you know that basically it was just you 271 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,640 know, I was, what twenty four, and they were saying, no, 272 00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:26,759 you can do this too. What I was saying, you can do 273 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,640 this too. You know, I'm thinking, this is just a recruitment drive. 274 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,920 You know, this is just a recruit meeting. As a young and 275 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:41,200 twenty four year I've already know and so but nonetheless, I went back every 276 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:47,880 every week of the service, and I kept a folder because every week, 277 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,079 interestingly, every week, you know, as you will know, there's a 278 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:53,759 different medium serving the church, and every week I've got I've got a message 279 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:57,920 from the spirit world. For six months, every week I got a message 280 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,880 in the spirit world saying, uh, you can do this too. Again, 281 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,440 I'm thinking, okay, so this is that that applying this heavy recruitment 282 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:11,559 drive onto him. But but you know, but every time I kept I 283 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,559 used to go home and write up exactly what was said where I was sitting, 284 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:18,920 you know, who the medium was, you know, and things like 285 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,039 that, you know, just try to lay it all out, because I 286 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,920 was convinced it was, you know, it was some sort of fraud activity 287 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,160 going on here. And and then I realized one time that I thought I 288 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:37,440 understood what was going on. And downstairs in the in the tea room, 289 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,279 because the old old sort of townhouse you have to sort of like the old 290 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,920 fireplaces and the alcoves be made into cupboards, and I just thought, what, 291 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:51,759 You've probably got a high tech CCTV system hidden behind the cupboards there, 292 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,440 and you want microphones upstairs in the church. And I'm thinking myself, you 293 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,319 know, people want to breath, they go to church, they're going to 294 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,640 talk about their loved ones and so forth. Then and I just had this 295 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:07,759 picture of this medium sitting downstairs with his CCTV system listening to listening to coversations 296 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,880 upstairs, you know. But anyway, so that's how I got involved to 297 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:18,119 six months in I was eventually invited you to sit in circle again. Used 298 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,400 to turn up half hour earlier so I could set the jairs out, make 299 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,279 sure there was no triggery involved. And I think it was week three. 300 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,920 The medium ask me to stand up and communication and I sort of like say, 301 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,519 if like most people, well, how do you do that? And 302 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:38,599 they talked me through it and here I am today, and that was it, 303 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:42,440 and I decided then, I think that if I wanted to understand it, 304 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,599 understand what was going on, but I needed in some way to try 305 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,279 and discard or move aside that skeptical element and just to like throw myself into 306 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:57,680 it on the basis that at some point I'll revisit this from from a scientific 307 00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:00,960 spectrum. And that's exactly why done. So you know, he involved for 308 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,920 twenty five years. Fifteen of those or ten of those are to say has 309 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:11,759 been now the church services and on my working at the churches have started to 310 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:18,680 tail off and the research has taken over. But I still feel that I'm 311 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,759 guided by spirit in this way. You know, I'm not sort of like 312 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:27,440 discarding the spirit world or or their inspiration. I still feel very much that 313 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:33,880 this is something that I think the spirit world wants me to pursue going forward 314 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,000 with that in mind, have you had any kind of messages or some sort 315 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,319 of confirmation from spirit in some way that says, please do this research or 316 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:51,680 something like that. I've had. I've had bits, yes, from from 317 00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:57,519 mediums who have who have not known what I'm doing or not known who I 318 00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:03,559 am or what have you, and on my involvement in spiritualism, and who 319 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:08,519 have sort of like given messages that I've been I understood to be you know 320 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:14,240 that this is the roots I'm to be taking now. Yeah, I mean 321 00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:18,759 I I love serving the churches, and my fault tooth and now to try 322 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:21,880 and keep hold of those church services. But as you know, you know 323 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,839 that you know, if you're on a path, you can't know it is 324 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,720 what it is, you know. So but I'm fascinated by the research and 325 00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:36,400 the moment conducting and seeing and doing. And you're looking into trance or something 326 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,480 as well, aren't you. Trials was something old was one of the first 327 00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:44,279 areas I was looking at in I was looking into in terms of trying to 328 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,519 understand trance. Obviously we're throwing here to spiritualist trials or medi mystic trance, 329 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,799 and in particular it was again on one try to do is understand what's going 330 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:00,799 on. I suppose that comes from the engineering and sort of background. They're 331 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:06,400 and trying to break like dismantal something and put things back together again to try 332 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:12,119 and see how it all works. But Charles I thought was quite interesting because 333 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:19,160 there is a lot of myth, superstition and a lot of strange ideas about 334 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:26,359 trance and what we find and what I've found is that with trance is you 335 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:32,599 can't don't read this is a derogatory way, but you can't always trust the 336 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,319 trance mediums who are teaching trance because they're only teaching trants from their perspective. 337 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,559 And what we find is that what they're aware of, it doesn't always reflect 338 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:52,640 what they're doing and because they're tricking anybody is because that's very often when we've 339 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,519 measured, for example, the physiology of trance mediums, and I've measured it 340 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:03,880 using skin conductance that measures the physiology that the automomic nervous system, and a 341 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:10,599 measured using EEG using that small sort of news headband we call them news headband. 342 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,319 The measures the brainway of activity. With mediums. When you ask me 343 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:18,799 the trans regions, what are they're aware of, it's very often a lot 344 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,759 different to what the readings of the physiology of the mediums are saying is happening. 345 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,599 No, So there is this paradox that's a difference here. So for 346 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,400 example, when for example, we him trans mediums talk about the need to 347 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:41,799 go into this very deep state where they're not aware of anything and uh, 348 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,640 and they're just not aware in their absence of mind or they're just going through 349 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:52,400 this deep relaxation so to speak, we have to differentiate because what we see 350 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:59,319 the physiology is yes, the body is relaxed, quite true, but their 351 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:06,319 mind, their brain activity is completely the opposite. It's a very heightened state 352 00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:10,319 of arounsal And it's like, well you say that to the trans media, 353 00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:12,119 well, actually you know, your body was relaxed, but your mind was 354 00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,799 literally buzzing, you know. And they're and they're like, well, that's 355 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:22,960 contrat to what they're experiencing. And so this is why I say it's it's 356 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,319 got it very I mean meegians who choose your in trance, I feel, 357 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:34,960 happ to be very careful in how they explain trance works because actually the physiology 358 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,559 that the data seems to suggest the opposite of what they're they're saying. And 359 00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,799 the reason the reason I did the trans research was I've found myself and give 360 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:52,079 a trance and you know, and as you know as as mediums yourself, 361 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,480 when you're in a development group and you work in your mental mediumship, you've 362 00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,960 got someone in front of you giving you sort of feedback no, and in 363 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,039 a way you're kind of learning to tune in and you're sort of like guiding 364 00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:07,240 yourself. You know what's right, what's wrong. You get a sense of 365 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,960 afterward, you get a sense of feel. But when something is right, 366 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,599 you got the yeah. But what I found when I started singing for trance, 367 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,640 you know, I'd sat I sat there and I closed my eyes. 368 00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:21,400 I was aware of the spirit world and it was like, well what do 369 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,599 we do now? You know? Said, well, what happens now? 370 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,319 You know? You know? And so that's why I did the research because 371 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:30,079 I wanted to see, well, what is meant to happen? And when 372 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:36,799 I understood that I'm not meant to just be completely unconscious or completely out of 373 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:41,359 it, but actually there's something else going on, that's when I realized that 374 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:45,200 how to sit for trance and my own trans developments or I went in leaps 375 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,880 and bounds. Once I realized that m is there any sort of specific spirits 376 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,640 that you'd be bringing through or is it a higher self or anything like that. 377 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,119 Oh well if it's if it's a higher self, it wouldn't be medimistic 378 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:06,160 trance. But it's it's we do I do have a so we say influence 379 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:11,200 or a spirit friend like on friends and spirit that come through and communicate. 380 00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,839 And so yes, there are there are individuals. I'm not going to name 381 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,079 them but because they asked not to be named at the moment, but they 382 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:22,799 are. There are individuals that come through. It's interesting and so for the 383 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:27,920 benefit of the audience that of hearing the description of a trance for the first 384 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,039 time, and obviously there's people listening that are thinking, what the hell are 385 00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:34,680 they talk about? Trans can can you explain for the benefit of our listeners 386 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:41,319 what in a in a mediumistic way of trance is? Okay, So when 387 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:47,359 we talk about trance mediumship, trance mediumship is a forum well mental mediumship. 388 00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:51,920 So what we're you see, The thing is I don't always I don't actually 389 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,880 agree necessarily with the definitions here as well, but let's let's explain. Let's 390 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:04,839 go to the traditional explanation of trance mediumship. So we know mediumship is mental 391 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:12,279 mediumship in the sense that that the medium conveys the information from the impressions mental 392 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:15,680 impressions that the spirit world give them and all that's what you see on a 393 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,960 platform or in church and so forth. So we call that perception mediumship. 394 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:25,200 They're preceding the spirit world. Trans mediumship is just the next step in many 395 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:30,759 many ways. And the data and the physiology data and the EEG data seems 396 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:34,559 to support that. But it is just the next step in the sense is 397 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,799 classes control mediumship in the sense that what happens there is the medium is seen 398 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,599 to be going into an altered state and normally their eyes closed, and the 399 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,559 spirit world is just able to draw that bit closer. We're saying. The 400 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:54,559 achievement is that bit finer, as we say, And what happens is that 401 00:32:54,759 --> 00:33:01,720 the medium will take on maybe the closer person of the spirit world coming forward 402 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:09,240 and provide evidence, find evidence or communication of their existence in some form. 403 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:15,279 And so that's a traditional explanation. But what do you perceive to be different. 404 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:23,839 I'm I've been with the research that I'm doing and the research I have 405 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,680 been doing for the last ten years. You can't help but look at the 406 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:37,279 broader sorts of literature on what we call survival of consciousness research and the survival 407 00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:43,200 of continence research includes things such as near death experiences, deathbed visitation, as 408 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,039 reincarnation and so forth, as well as mediumship. And because a lot of 409 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:59,920 the researchers out there would say that mediumship alone though, provides evidence of continuation 410 00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:04,680 of life. So it's actually if you bring all the bigger pictures, the 411 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,280 bigger picture of the wider perspective together, then you have that real sort of 412 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,760 strong case for the survival of consciousness. You know, So mediumship on its 413 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:20,199 own maybe not. Near death experiences no provide evidence to a survival, but 414 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,920 as they're on their own, probably not conclusive, you know, the same 415 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,920 as death betivisitations provide evidence contenation of life, but on their own not but 416 00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:31,840 everything fully altogether the evidence of the bigger packaging, with mediumship and everything else 417 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:37,239 put together, then there is this sort of big body of knowledge. However, 418 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,559 to do that, you then have to say what is the commonalities here? 419 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:50,400 And when you do that you start to see that maybe the spiritualist I 420 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:57,719 called the spiritualist model of how mediumship works in the sense of you know that 421 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,760 we take care away and is the spirit world and the spirit parison draws close 422 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,800 to us or blends with us, and the tunes with us. You know, 423 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:12,639 it's not necessary. And it also doesn't explain these other forms of medium 424 00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:17,360 other forms of the phenomena that we see as well. And so it seems 425 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,559 to suggest there is another how do I put this, There is another mechanism 426 00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:36,360 that that's that's there's another mechanism in play what I think would support mediumship but 427 00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:40,159 also support these other phenomenas that we see. And and I think, you 428 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:46,159 know, the spiritualist model is a model that gives us a framework of perceiving 429 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:51,639 the spirit world in some way. And it also member of spiritualism is a 430 00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:55,440 religion, and so it complies with the sort of that that the religion or 431 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,000 the framework of religion in that respect as well in terms of happening that this 432 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:05,360 spirit world and people being there and so forth, it follows that type of 433 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:09,239 model. But the data, see the data that I'm seeing seems to suggest 434 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:16,960 that he needs something else is happening watch this space for would that suggests then, 435 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,000 I mean, I'm just figuring things at random here because I have an 436 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:30,559 interest We interviewed Simon Young a couple of shows back, and he's a research 437 00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:34,400 although he's English, he's based in Italy, but he's into folklore and he 438 00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:39,159 spoke to us about fairy sightings and very interesting. He's got this kind of 439 00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:45,400 whole database of fairy sightings and people just fill out kind of a sheet of 440 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:50,800 information via his website of what they perceived to be a fairy encounter. And 441 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,760 he's got something like five hundred encounters and I think he's getting another five hundred 442 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,119 together shortly to publish as a free downloader on his on his website. And 443 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,280 so I kind of kind of get the idea. And then we talk about 444 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,360 shadow beings, and you've got these dog men, sight beings and all sorts 445 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,920 of things that the spiritual world or the spiritualist thing is one kind of activity 446 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:19,599 if you're like where we're literally dialing it up or they're dialing back to us 447 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,119 to communicate. But it's almost like, as I spoke to I gave a 448 00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:30,079 talk the other week and I described to the people in the audience what possibly 449 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:36,199 the fairy beings are. It's like it's almost like that we've got a spiritual 450 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,679 world. But then there's the wild life, you like that we have in 451 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,440 our world where we see hints of wildlife and our back garden, the fox, 452 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:45,440 the badger, or the rabbit at the end of the garden. And 453 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,559 then further out, if we go into a jungle, we might see a 454 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,960 tiger or a rang, a tang or whatever it may be, and we 455 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:58,039 realize they're beings, they're living sentiment beings, but we can't always communicate with 456 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:00,239 them, but we kind of like observe them, and that observe us, 457 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,000 and we might have encounters with them, and I like them the fairy world 458 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,039 to something like the wildlife, but in a spiritual dimension. So I'm just 459 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,280 wondering if like what you're trying to describe is that, you know, you 460 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,960 think there's more to it than just the spiritualist model. There's a greater reality 461 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:24,320 beyond those Yeah, and absolutely absolutely, And I would extend that by saying 462 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:31,199 that where I refer to the spiritualist model and responding also to the mechanics of 463 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,119 mediumship, because it's that those mechanics of mediumship in terms of you know, 464 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:42,519 the spirit world Blainey with Arooric Field and sobil. But we've all heard about 465 00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:50,880 that I'm I'm now questioning because I don't necessarily feel that that is necessary, 466 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,800 because you know, we have to look at all these other fields that support 467 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,800 some sort of a viable even ESP work, you know, the psychic work 468 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,360 and the s P work, you know, seems to suggest that that we 469 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,599 don't need. For example, we do psychometry, you know, we talk 470 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:12,400 about psychometriagnis how to give you a power and object, you know, Well, 471 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,719 the question is do we really need the pain and object to do psychometry? 472 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:20,320 You know, you know, is there not the ability within us to 473 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,400 just have that intention? And this is where we're going. This is what 474 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:30,280 the data seems to suggest that that we are that the catalyst for for all 475 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:39,000 this. This this the perception that we have and it's just it's it's because 476 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,760 because our doctor is to do with intention, and the copnitive process is involved 477 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:51,199 in decision making, awareness and so forth. You know that the data seems 478 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,559 to suggest that there is now, as I said, there is this other 479 00:39:53,639 --> 00:40:02,760 mechanics involved in mediumship that doesn't necessarily follow the the the the anthropomorphic sort of 480 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,360 model of the spirit world in their three D form coming closer to us, 481 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,199 and all this sort of thing that it's easy for us to imagine, but 482 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:16,280 it's not necessarily what's going on. Mm hmmmm. Are we being spoon fed 483 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:22,320 a little bit maybe by the spirit world? I think, I know I 484 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,880 have been that well, you know, is it? Is it spur of 485 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,800 Vegeman spirit world? I've never heard, to be fair, I've never I've 486 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,039 never read anywhere, you know, when you go through the silver Birch works, 487 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:40,199 why you get all these other the spirit controls that have been around and 488 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,079 give us the philosophy of spiritu I've never heard them say a lot of them 489 00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:51,039 out of the mechanics as such, you know. And I think it's it's 490 00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:58,159 pretty much come from our own sort of perception of what we're perceiving is happening. 491 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,760 And it kind of makes sense, you know, if you know, 492 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:07,079 kind of makes sense and there is a logic to it. But you know, 493 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:15,599 I've learned to realize now that what we perceive and what we think we 494 00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:20,079 perceive as a psychologist, what we think we perceive is not always was actually 495 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:23,960 happening. You know that? And it is fascinating. And what's your take 496 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,880 on this, Chris, Because from my perspective in doing kind of psychic work, 497 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,320 and mediumistic work certainly on the psychic level. The conclusion I've come to 498 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,440 in how I'm getting the information putting aside, you know, kind of like 499 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,440 the skeptical point of view of cold reading and all that kind of thing, 500 00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:46,800 when I get information that I shouldn't know that corroborates as true later on by 501 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,480 somebody, for instance, I kind of have the position that maybe there is 502 00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:58,960 almost like a psychic Internet, like the information is universal, absolutely everywhere and 503 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:02,559 somehow, and I don't know how a psychic or intuitive is almost kind of 504 00:42:02,599 --> 00:42:07,639 like opening up a browser window and Google in a psychic sense and kind of 505 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,840 like dipping into the information and putting the information out of the ether and then 506 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,480 bringing it back. Do you think do you think that's I think I think 507 00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:22,719 there is a strong argument to support that that that that's that sort of model 508 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,800 we're talk about. It depends w coome on you talking about the cache kid 509 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,079 records or you're talking about the super consciousness, you know, this big super 510 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:37,760 consciousness cloud that we all tapping into, and absolutely why not you know, 511 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:42,920 why not? You know, it would explain an awful lot mm hmm, 512 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,000 you would explain the awful lot. It'll explain the telepathy, it'll explain you 513 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:52,199 know that psychic how a sort of psychic work, and and it doesn't take 514 00:42:52,320 --> 00:43:00,320 too much to see that how it may provide us a mechanism to commune with 515 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:06,400 the discard personalities. No, the spirit world. I'm talking about the mechanisms 516 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,960 and souff And I'm not saying we don't survive death. I'm not saying that, 517 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:14,679 you know, these individual personalities aren't existing somewhere. What I'm saying is 518 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:19,760 that the mech or the picture or what we've been told of how to perceive 519 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,000 you know, that mechanism working may be true. You know, And I 520 00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:29,480 don't think you know happen your with super consciousness. I don't think it's too 521 00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:32,679 big a step to then realize, well, perhaps we're doing a similar sort 522 00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:37,280 of thing when it comes to the spirit world. Maybe it's not the spirit 523 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,679 world coming to us and us coming to them. Maybe it's the fact that 524 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:45,000 we're just dialing up I know, maybe we going international. Maybe the super 525 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:47,599 consciousness is the psychic and now you know, the go medium, you've got 526 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:52,320 to go to the international call and in that way, because if you think 527 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,480 about that, then you can start to see why you know, you've got 528 00:43:54,519 --> 00:44:00,280 precognition and retrocognition and things like that. You know, there's there's this all 529 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:05,599 these types of things that can come to play. M Are you familiar to 530 00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:10,000 all with the Seth material by Jane Roberts Seth's Yeah, are not? Yeah, 531 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,599 Yeah, I've come across it. Yes, I won't class myself as 532 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,119 an expert on that. Yeah, it's just I think that's that's the kind 533 00:44:19,159 --> 00:44:22,599 of I don't know. That is where we're heading with this conversation. Seems 534 00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:28,239 to suggest that kind of Seth material would be a kind of go to kind 535 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,000 of book or source material to kind of explain a lot of this. I 536 00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:37,360 think because she was a medium. Again, for those that don't know who 537 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,599 Seth was, who Jane Roberts was. She was born in the forties I 538 00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:46,159 think, not exactly sure when she was born, but during the mid sixties 539 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,920 to the early eighties and early nineteen eighties. I think she died in nineteen 540 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:58,920 eighties four. She channeled if one of a better word, that's a popular 541 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,199 American term, channel or trance as we call it in the UK, this 542 00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:07,760 entity who said you can call me Seth, and he basically said, if 543 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,960 I recall correctly he said. The Seth personality, as you know of me, 544 00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:19,760 is a bridge of the greater self that I am, and it's a 545 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,039 meeting point, a psychological meeting point, if I remember correctly, of what 546 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,559 where Jane Roberts had to stretch out to and where he had to stretch down 547 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,920 from, and where they met in the middle road. It formed this kind 548 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,519 of personality that became the Seth personality. So as a meeting of minds that 549 00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:42,599 then brought through this personification. I think if I understood it correctly, would 550 00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:45,880 would you agree with that? Yeah? I would, But I think you 551 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,800 know that. But the the initiator of that was Jane, because no mere 552 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:58,840 respects and as the case with all mediumship, no the initiator is that is 553 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:04,079 the medium and and it is. It just comes down to you know, 554 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:07,000 as I said, you know that the whole field of the research and to 555 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:09,480 do it and seems to suggest that it's all a lot of this. It 556 00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:15,880 comes down to it quite simply. Where we place our awareness is as simple 557 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,480 as that. You know, if you place your awareness onto a pin because 558 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,519 someone has picked a pin up last time and you want to sense that, 559 00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:29,079 you will get information from that if you want to take your awareness or take 560 00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:31,800 your intention or awareness of the spirit world and say there is a person now, 561 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,719 then your attention goes to that you know, and it's and it is. 562 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,280 It seems to be as straightforward as that. There is nothing. There's 563 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:45,920 no complication mechanism as such. You know, it's just down to it's just 564 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:52,000 down to our ability to move our intention or our awareness to to where we 565 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:58,920 want to receive the information or or put or perceive the information. That's that's 566 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,519 there. Hm hmmm. It's interesting because, like I mean, there's certain 567 00:47:04,559 --> 00:47:09,320 situations I can think of. I mean, one example where where people did 568 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:15,079 not want to receive a communication yet they did so I kind of find it 569 00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:21,880 difficult to sort of think why. But but these there's these three ladies that 570 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,119 I saw at demonstration, and it was actually these two mediums. These two 571 00:47:25,199 --> 00:47:30,280 guys were doing a demo together and one would come on do his little ten 572 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,840 minutes a medium chip goalf, and the other guy would come on do his 573 00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:36,719 and the it was like that all evening, and at the end of the 574 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,400 evening they said, right, that's it, we're out of steam. We're 575 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,639 off now. Cheerio, thanks for coming everybody, and they walked off the 576 00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:45,800 stage, and then one of the guys actually came back on and he said, 577 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,039 I'm sorry, I've got to give another message, and it's those three 578 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,960 ladies sitting at the back row and he pointed them out, and there was 579 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:57,760 three ladies at the back, probably sort of similar age to each other. 580 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,960 I think there were sisters by from what I could per see. And he 581 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,039 said, I've got your father here and he wants to communicate with you, 582 00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:07,760 and they all instantly said no, we don't want to hear from him. 583 00:48:08,119 --> 00:48:12,480 And he said, I know, I know you don't want to hear from 584 00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:14,440 it, but he wants to speak to you. And they kept saying, 585 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:15,480 no, we don't want to hear from him. And I'm thinking, oh 586 00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:20,519 my god, this is quite embarrassing because they really didn't want to hear from 587 00:48:20,559 --> 00:48:23,280 him, and they weren't focusing their attention. They didn't really want him. 588 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:29,000 But somehow, I guess he forced himself into the situation. He barged his 589 00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:31,800 way in and he'd been waiting there all night, I guess, to get 590 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,199 his message in, and I think he was coming in to say, from 591 00:48:36,199 --> 00:48:38,880 what I recollect, he wanted to say sorry. To them, and he 592 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,360 couldn't move on. I guess wherever he was, he could not move on 593 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,599 without seeking some sort of forgiveness for whatever he had done. And it could 594 00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:51,719 have been an abusive relationship. I just don't know what. None of them 595 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:57,480 wanted to hear from him, and so although they didn't focus their attention, 596 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,239 they'd obviously gone there for some reason for them to. Yeah, what's your 597 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:06,440 thoughts. But it's the interesting the phraseology in the words you're using there, 598 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,239 because this is something that I find fascinating, is the fact that the way 599 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:16,880 you've conveyed that is that the spirit world came to the medium in the sense, 600 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,920 because that's how it's perceived. You know, you think, but you 601 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,519 know I mean, and also you know, and if you listen to medians 602 00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:29,239 where as we are as I work, you know, a lot of the 603 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,360 a lot of the phraseology we use, a lot of the way we describe 604 00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:38,880 things is it comes through the assumption that the spirit world are coming to us 605 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,920 in this sort of form, and we are being perceived by that in some 606 00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:47,079 way. We're perceiving that in some way. So for example, when I'm 607 00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:51,679 working, I'll treasure point a minute. But when I'm working and I'll say, 608 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,920 actually, I feel I've put your father here, and I'll say something 609 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,639 that I've got your father here. Is this? Is this actually the way 610 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,960 know it's the father? Or am I just getting a something that's just prompted 611 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,760 me to say father? No, I'm not, I'm not actually sort of 612 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,559 you know what I mean, I'm not actually seeing the person. I'm just 613 00:50:10,559 --> 00:50:15,119 getting a feel of that. But the way I present it is in the 614 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:21,679 sense that your father is here. But actually, what's happened is I've just 615 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:28,519 had some sort of neurological incident event that made me say father. And so 616 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,519 what you said is that you know that the father came. Yeah, well, 617 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:38,360 what if the father didn't come? What if instead of that happening, 618 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:45,239 what we had here was a medium that wasn't able to deter his attention away 619 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:50,280 from the spirit world. Because one of the things we find in our research 620 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,480 is one of the abilities that mediums need to develop is the ability to multitask 621 00:50:54,599 --> 00:50:59,960 and switch attention. You know, as a very important clactic, that medium 622 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:05,719 wasn't able to switch their attention away from the spirit world. You know, 623 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,360 they may have been tired, but they're they're cognitively exhausted and their mind was 624 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:15,760 still there with the spirit world. What if psychically they felt an impression from 625 00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:23,800 the women sitting in the back robe and actually he actually brought forward the father, 626 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,360 or he was made aware of the father, if it wasn't the father 627 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,719 impressing themselves on it. But the media was impressed, do you know. 628 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,559 I mean the medium brought that that impression the same way as were aware of 629 00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:38,199 the energy of a pencil, you know, and even touches it, you 630 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:45,440 know, And that is the initiation of the communication. It's not because again 631 00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:49,079 as I said, no, it's it's never as simple as this sort of 632 00:51:49,159 --> 00:51:52,480 this direct connection, this direct thing. Knowing there are many things that happened. 633 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:58,920 I mean, either background in psychotherapy as well, and so you know, 634 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,679 when I see clients in a psychotherapy perspective, you know, they will 635 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,280 tell me one thing because they are insistent this is what's happening. But when 636 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:14,079 you explore it psychologically or through hypnosis or what have you, you find there's 637 00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:20,199 all sorts of other underlying sorts of mechanisms and things that are going on in 638 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:25,039 play. And so you know, yeah, it is interesting. I mean 639 00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:30,519 I've had a similar experience as well with a person saying no, you know, 640 00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:36,360 they didn't want to hear from the person that I brought forward. But 641 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,719 again again when I was doing that, I would say that, you know, 642 00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:46,800 did did that person come through? Was that person there and come through 643 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:53,440 or was I as an inexperienced Meejian, just opened up to everything and just 644 00:52:53,519 --> 00:53:00,320 got a sense of somebody's a presence that I could link to somebody sitting in 645 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,719 the in the congagension, you know. And so I was putting that forward. 646 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,800 And again I'm not saying the spirit world are now or the spirit world 647 00:53:07,679 --> 00:53:13,400 you know, we don't have survival, you know, I'm just questioning the 648 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,840 mechanics of it, because we do have this sort of idea of this sort 649 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:21,760 of image of the spirit world drawing close to us and blending with us and 650 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,480 influencing us. Well, maybe it's not that, maybe we're just psychologizing the 651 00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:31,880 spirit world. Mm hmmm. Although I mean you've mentioned this in previous interviews 652 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:40,119 about the cross correspondence with Mayas and Lory Pipers. Yeah. Yeah, which 653 00:53:40,199 --> 00:53:45,079 was the three different meetings, one in the United States, one in India, 654 00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:47,760 and one in the UK. If I remember Roni Cart them super cones. 655 00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:54,239 Yeah, so was that not mayas Frederick Myers, the late Frederick Myers, 656 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:59,079 who was the scientist or spiritualist. I can't remember what he was now, 657 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:04,320 I can't remember. But it's all written up on the the the Psycle 658 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,800 Research, a website for anyone who who is interested looking at the correspondence experiments. 659 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:16,840 It has been criticized since there has been talk about the the the the 660 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:24,639 individuals evolved were not as as as isolated or as distant as one one thought. 661 00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:30,559 But again, you know, it all comes down again, you know, 662 00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:36,800 I mean super consciousness can I think explained that in many ways as well. 663 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,119 You know, if the medium is if the individual is able to open 664 00:54:40,159 --> 00:54:45,199 near their mind and move their intention to a place or to a source, 665 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:51,000 then why not get that m It just seems extraordinary that they would pick up 666 00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:54,719 something if that is the case, of course, if if it's what is 667 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:59,039 claimed, that they would pick up something from Meyers, a part of a 668 00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:02,440 poem or a book or something I can't and then the other lady picks up 669 00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:07,559 another sentence of the book and it's all pieced together. It's it's it seems 670 00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:10,800 quite an extraordinary feat. It is they are doing it, and I don't 671 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,840 know whether the super consciousness. I'm sure there's a super conscious is probably ticking 672 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:21,920 away in the background like a vast Internet generation. I mean, can explain 673 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,519 it. But also as I'm saying, you know, I'm not saying that 674 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:31,960 there's no spirit communication, and just find that the mechanism of that communication isn't 675 00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:37,400 necessary as the spiritualists. As spiritualists, we perceive it necessarily, you know, 676 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:42,639 so you know, yes, but again it would have been initiated by 677 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:51,440 the mediums, not necessarily the spirit world initiates. It's interesting because there's the 678 00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:57,119 Journeys out of the Body guy. I forget his name now it turns out 679 00:55:57,119 --> 00:56:00,000 that Robert Monroe. I don't if you're aware of him. Robin Monroe. 680 00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:06,079 He wrote the book Journeys Out the Body after he experimented with tape recordings and 681 00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:10,800 things of different languages, and it somehow triggered He believed himself to be able 682 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,639 to spontaneously go out of his body in a sort of into spiritual realms and 683 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:21,800 dimensions soberly, and he went to different areas. One he thought was an 684 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:28,280 alternative Earth. Others realms that he went to appear to be possibly a spiritual 685 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,280 world and other places. He didn't have any idea where he was going to. 686 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:37,199 He just was some Alian place of bizarre places. But he said, 687 00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:42,000 even the spiritualists, if it's the guy I'm thinking of, he said, 688 00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:46,559 even the spiritualists have got it wrong. He quoted saying about what they believed 689 00:56:46,599 --> 00:56:49,719 to be the case. He says, even the spirituals. When I've gone 690 00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,519 over there, even the spiritualists have got it wrong. And I thought that 691 00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:54,920 was quite an interesting state. So what was his take on what they got 692 00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,960 wrong and how it really is? He didn't really for specify, except that 693 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:06,920 he made no mention of Indian spirit guides or anything like that. He saw 694 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,400 people that had died, like his ex doctor. He saw in a room 695 00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:14,400 who he appeared to be a lot younger, and the doctor looked at him 696 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,639 in surprising and what the hell are you doing here in the spirit world. 697 00:57:17,079 --> 00:57:22,559 He even made contact with his deceased wife, not laughs, as she passed 698 00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:25,079 like within a week, and he said that he thought he was, you 699 00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:29,599 know, because of his thirty years plus experience of going out of his body, 700 00:57:29,599 --> 00:57:32,239 he thought would be all sorted for this kind of encounterver, But it 701 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,079 really was a major trauma to him actual encountering his wife. On the other 702 00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:40,480 side, it just free I don't know if it freaked him out. It's 703 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,079 not the right word, but it was. It was too much to handle, 704 00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:49,119 I think in a weird way, which is quite strong as well. 705 00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:53,159 So yeah, it's definitely a book worth reading. Journeys Out the Body, 706 00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:57,239 More Journeys, and there's a third one I can't remember the title, which 707 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,760 doesn't seem to be as good that one seems. I mean, are you 708 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,440 coming across the world? So Anthony Peak, Yeah, we interviewed him. 709 00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:09,320 Yeah, so you're familiar to the fact that he is much the perception that 710 00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:15,719 say, you know that there's multiple universes or multiple sort of that dimensions, 711 00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:19,119 and and the fact that when we pass, what are actually doing is shifting 712 00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:24,280 our awareness to the different dimensions at where we currently exist. And I mean 713 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:31,599 again, so that again is plausible and again would follow what I'm saying is 714 00:58:31,599 --> 00:58:37,719 the fact that it's actually the medium that is initiating the communication, because it's 715 00:58:38,239 --> 00:58:44,320 again it's their awareness moving their awareness to that source of information. Again, 716 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,119 all meanship, all psychic work is about to do it awareness and his interesting 717 00:58:47,159 --> 00:58:52,079 that we talk and evenoment classes about awareness, but then we seem to not 718 00:58:52,199 --> 00:58:55,440 really think about, well, what we actually mean by that. We actually 719 00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,960 imply when the talk about awareness and then go on and talk about the mediums 720 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:06,360 and so forth. But it is just literally awareness, you know, it's 721 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:13,400 just awareness of things. And we see that because the I was fortunate enough 722 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:21,639 to interview nineteen international mediums, well known mediums and mediums have been on TV 723 00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:25,880 stream live and all sorts of things and talking about their mediumship and how they 724 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:31,280 communicate with the spirit world. And look and see if we could understand the 725 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:40,559 cognitive process is involved and map these cognitive processes to specific sort of what we 726 00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:46,400 call executive functions, functions that are used in decision making, awareness in terms 727 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:52,559 of memory, in terms of things like that. And we've found an immense 728 00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:57,320 amount of commonality. And of course, these mediums are all around the world, 729 00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:00,000 you know, and the UK around the world, you know, there 730 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:05,800 speak different languages and so forth. Yet there was still this commonality in terms 731 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,599 of how they received the spirit world, how they initiate communication the spirit world, 732 01:00:10,639 --> 01:00:15,239 how they maintain that communication of the spirit world, and the importance and 733 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:22,400 certain cognitive abilities. So for example, you know, the ability to switch 734 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,840 their attention. That was very important, you know, between the spirit world 735 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:34,079 and in some cases between the spirit world and the recipient. You know, 736 01:00:34,159 --> 01:00:38,639 so there's inspirity to switch or multitask as we call it multitasking abilities, but 737 01:00:38,719 --> 01:00:45,519 also the ability to sustain their focus, to sustain this dissociated state that we 738 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:51,519 that we medians move into was it was highly important as well. So there's 739 01:00:51,760 --> 01:01:00,559 there's these cognitive processes and these processes are all interlinked with the idea point or 740 01:01:00,639 --> 01:01:05,800 linked with our ability, with our ability to be aware, ability to be 741 01:01:06,159 --> 01:01:12,760 to attend to sources of information, and it's it's it just seems to strike 742 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,039 as that this is what seems to be the core of a lot of this 743 01:01:16,119 --> 01:01:22,400 sort of phenomena or a gaining comes down to our ability, our attentional ability, 744 01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:30,519 our attention to this source. M It's quite a complex thing, actually, 745 01:01:30,559 --> 01:01:32,920 isn't it. When the more you digger deeper, the harder the lot 746 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:37,280 becomes to crack. Like I said, I had this, I love the 747 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,199 idea of where I wanted to end up, this research ending up, and 748 01:01:39,239 --> 01:01:45,039 it hasn't gone going that really head it's left more it's leading me with more 749 01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:51,000 questions and it does answers. But I think that is the the what I 750 01:01:51,039 --> 01:01:54,039 think all researcher is meant to do. Yeah, don't mean to finish. 751 01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,800 It's meant to just be some like and all like me, Andimshire is meant 752 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,119 to be like a vocation, something you pursue for life, so to speak, 753 01:02:02,159 --> 01:02:06,719 and hopefully it has some sort of meaningful impact. And that's why it 754 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,320 has in essence. One one trying to achieve here, you know, is 755 01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:19,079 to try and bring some sort of empirical base into the development circle. Not 756 01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,000 to replace the spirit world, the teachers, the spirit world or so forth, 757 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:28,599 but simply to try and bring some sort of empirical basis in this because 758 01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,599 you know, I think, you know, if we can, especially in 759 01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:36,239 the you know, the world we're living in at the moment is becoming more 760 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:42,599 and more secular, you know, to Brian, to keep in touch with 761 01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,519 these the individuals that are coming on, you know, the youngsters, the 762 01:02:45,559 --> 01:02:50,039 youth of today. I think we need to bring some sort of empirical basis 763 01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:52,840 to this, for what we do now is not I don't think it's good 764 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:57,239 enough to say, you know, we sit in circle. We let me 765 01:02:57,239 --> 01:02:59,800 say prayer we close our eyes, we do a meditation, do a little 766 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:07,119 journey, and hey, hopefully something appears. No, and what we say 767 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,000 is the evidence. You know, the evidence is what we say to you, 768 01:03:10,039 --> 01:03:15,079 so you have to believe it. No. I think nowadays, I 769 01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:17,960 think the youngest is in the youth want to know why and how, and 770 01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:23,119 this is what we're trying to I'm trying to provide a research and I'm under 771 01:03:23,119 --> 01:03:28,400 conducting cool right, I think for a minute, we'll take a break here 772 01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,920 on the Paranormal peep Show, we're talking to Chris Connley about the science of 773 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,800 mediumship and where it's going and the kind of research that he's been doing into 774 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,519 it. So join us in a minute on part two on the Paranormal peep 775 01:03:39,519 --> 01:03:46,639 Show, The Day's the Best Day by Life. Listen to the Paranormal UK 776 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:52,840 Reading Network. Join Andrew o'leial every month on the Paranoral peep Show, part 777 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:58,880 of the Paranoral UK Radio Network for fund that frolics and lots of information about 778 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,719 weird stuff UFOs, ghosts and things that go bump in the night and everything 779 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:13,360 associated with them. Fascinating guests, fascinating talk, fascinating information. Hi folks, 780 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,480 Welcome back to the panor Piecho with myself, Andy Neil, and our 781 01:04:16,639 --> 01:04:21,960 guests Chris Neil. We've got a question apparently, Rick. Yeah, yeah, 782 01:04:23,039 --> 01:04:25,800 it's a question for Chris. It's one of the ones we've been chewing 783 01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,440 over during the break. We're talking about trance, and I'm intrigued by trance. 784 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,360 Have you ever gotten trance? Andy or Yeah? Yeah. So I 785 01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:39,320 told a few times that I should go in that direction, but I'm a 786 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,360 bit of a control freak and I don't like the idea of completely letting myself 787 01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,320 go for something else. Yeah, I must admit that's that's the kind of 788 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:49,719 experiences I had many years ago, back in the late eighties. I was 789 01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:55,280 obviously getting into this stuff quite heavily, and I was reading a lot of 790 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,800 the Seth material and I think I've found out about the Seth materials through this 791 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,559 particular book called How to Reach Your Spirit Guides by a lady called Catherine Ridle 792 01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:11,840 or Riddle if the name is correct, and she if I recollect, she 793 01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,360 was a psychologist, and I think she was skeptical in the beginning, but 794 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,840 then she went and saw a trance medium who then explained that she could learn 795 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:24,920 how to go into trance, and eventually she started channeling herself. And the 796 01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:29,480 very first word that she uttered, she always remembered, and I think it 797 01:05:29,559 --> 01:05:33,280 said something that we would like to assure you that angels do indeed exist. 798 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,840 And that's what she actually said to herself as in a trance state. And 799 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:45,400 so what happened to me was in the book this her own guide, if 800 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,039 you want to call it, Guy. I gave instructions in the book how 801 01:05:47,079 --> 01:05:50,639 to go into trance and channel your spirit guides. And you had to go 802 01:05:50,679 --> 01:05:56,840 through these various processes, one of which was writing out your intentions I wish 803 01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,800 to communicate with a highly evolved soul or spirit guide or something like that, 804 01:06:01,039 --> 01:06:03,800 and you'd write it down, you know, every day, and you'd probably 805 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:09,639 say it like staying your intentions, and the other parts of it was like 806 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:16,880 sitting quietly and you would meditate, but try and visualize. Visualize yourself as 807 01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,440 an empty vessel. This is what they stressing the book, an empty vessel. 808 01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,960 And I thought, how did I imagine myself as an empty vessel? 809 01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:29,679 So the only thing that came to my mind was to imagine myself as a 810 01:06:29,719 --> 01:06:33,039 Toby jug with my face on the front of a Toby jug and it's like 811 01:06:33,079 --> 01:06:36,559 a great, big empty mug, and whatever it was it was going to 812 01:06:36,639 --> 01:06:41,960 take it over would climb into this empty a tobe jug that was my face 813 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,480 on the front and then take over. Now I wasn't sure if this was 814 01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:48,159 right or wrong, but I started to get some results from it, and 815 01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:53,079 I started to have some weird sensations in my stomach and I kept thinking, 816 01:06:53,159 --> 01:06:56,480 Oh, what's that weird warm sensation I'm getting in my stomach? So I 817 01:06:56,519 --> 01:07:00,440 thought, well, can I move that sensation with my mind? And started 818 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,679 to move around my body this this weird sensation. It actually went up to 819 01:07:02,719 --> 01:07:08,239 my throat and I could fill my Adam's apple, moved about quite on its 820 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:12,039 own, as if it was like gearing up to speak, and then suddenly 821 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,800 I blurted out the words were, and the words were. There seemed to 822 01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:21,119 be some confusion with the process required, and it kind of shot the hell 823 01:07:21,159 --> 01:07:23,920 out of me. I think, oh, my god, I spoke this, 824 01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,400 and I wasn't expecting to say that. I was hoping to say something, 825 01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,079 but I really didn't think it had worked. And it bloody well did 826 01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:32,639 work. And it's such a shock that it brought me out of this meditative 827 01:07:32,719 --> 01:07:40,960 trance state, and then I tried some sort of later exercises. And I 828 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,880 always remember, and I think I've said this on the show before, about 829 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,320 this lady that used to bring through this Manico spirit guide and we used to 830 01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:54,079 see her once every term in our psychic developing circle. And this Manico spirit 831 01:07:54,119 --> 01:07:58,760 guide was supposed the an African guide, and I always kind of had doubts 832 01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:03,679 of whether it was real or because he sounded like fuzzy bet to but reubenstidine 833 01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:10,679 about this just like fuzzy Bear to me, and I tried not to laugh, 834 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,039 and I look the other way, you know, And I was really 835 01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:16,800 had doubts about it. But then I got a friend of mine to ask 836 01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:20,319 a question of this Manico spirit guy because one time I couldn't go there, 837 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:25,560 and I'd read in one of the Seth books that he stated that Jesus didn't 838 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,680 die on the cross, he was actually switched with another guy, which I 839 01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,960 thought was an interesting concept. So I thought, oh, well, who 840 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,199 would know the answer to that. Well, the Manico spirit guide but obviously 841 01:08:34,239 --> 01:08:38,079 know the answer to that one. So I got my friend saying, could 842 01:08:38,159 --> 01:08:41,920 you ask this Manico spirit guide if Jesus really did die on the cross. 843 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,079 And so she went to the session and she came back a few days late 844 01:08:45,159 --> 01:08:47,880 and she goes, I asked your question, your behalf. I didn't say 845 01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,279 your name or anything like that. I just said, old Manico, did 846 01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:55,359 Jesus die on the cross? And there was a pause and he goes, 847 01:08:56,159 --> 01:09:00,359 hang on a minute, and he went away somewhere spiritually speaking, and then 848 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,279 came back if it is later, and he said, you don't know the 849 01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:05,920 answer, or it appears we don't know the answer. And I then thought, 850 01:09:06,039 --> 01:09:09,920 ah, well that's there. It's obviously fake. Then she's obviously putting 851 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:13,000 on a funny voice, this woman, and the whole thing's, you know, 852 01:09:13,239 --> 01:09:16,159 the baloney. But then I was still practicing my own transfer at this 853 01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:19,960 time, and I was expecting to go into trance and pick up what I 854 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,960 thought was a Victorian spirit guy, because I've been told I've got this guy 855 01:09:25,039 --> 01:09:29,600 called Henry working with me. And instead I started to see an image of 856 01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,840 Jesus on the cross from the back, as if I was sitting on his 857 01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:35,079 shoulder and Jesus was out like this, and I was like sitting on his 858 01:09:35,159 --> 01:09:39,720 cross on his shoulder, looking down at Jesus on the cross from as if 859 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,800 I was a parrot on his shoulder, and I thought, what was going 860 01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,960 on here? And then my voice literally came through as this Manico spirit guide. 861 01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,880 I was doing the fuzzy bear voice, and it said, and he 862 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:55,760 came through with a lot of force and said, you were the one that 863 01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,439 answered the question. It said, and I thought, and then he said 864 01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,039 I and Manico, and I thought, oh my god. Again that freaked 865 01:10:02,079 --> 01:10:04,119 me out, and I came out of trance. I thought, what the 866 01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:08,560 bloody he was going on there? This Manico has found out that I was 867 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,880 the guilty party that asked the question, even though my name wasn't mentioned, 868 01:10:13,359 --> 01:10:16,680 And he's tracked me down and he's taking names basically, and he's pulled me 869 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:21,520 in for questioning sort of thing. You know, that's the important real Well, 870 01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,279 yeah, I don't know what the answer was in the sense of, 871 01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:29,159 you know, Jesus did dine across a lot. I don't know someone died 872 01:10:29,159 --> 01:10:31,680 on across her gather, But Manico was hauling me out for it, and 873 01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,720 I thought he didn't exist. So, Chris, you've just been listening to 874 01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:40,319 that. What's your thoughts on that? What did Jesus dine across No, 875 01:10:40,319 --> 01:10:45,479 no, what did I what it about Fuzzy Bear that the thing is with 876 01:10:45,319 --> 01:10:53,119 you know, as all forms of mediumship, there is a level of of 877 01:10:53,239 --> 01:10:59,920 us in the communication. Mm hmmm is it? Is it the voice of 878 01:11:00,079 --> 01:11:05,159 the spirit world? Possibly could be? And you know under the mindset that 879 01:11:05,279 --> 01:11:13,600 really the voice that comes through isn't significant. It's the content of the words 880 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:18,600 that are spoken that's important, you know. I know in my in my 881 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:30,760 only developments of trance, know that the voice didn't match the communicator, but 882 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:36,920 the voice was remnant of some of the mediums charts, mediums that I respected, 883 01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,840 that I've met, and so I know, so I suspect on a 884 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:47,560 very unconscious level, I was emulating something almost as a desire to be right, 885 01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,880 you know. It's a desire to sort of like emulate the buns iri 886 01:11:51,359 --> 01:11:56,880 that I'm respected as mediums, charlest mediums. So there's not an intentional thing, 887 01:11:57,119 --> 01:12:00,800 but on a very much an unconscious level. Eventually has time developed, 888 01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:04,000 the voice changed, and now that the voice is a bit more so we 889 01:12:04,119 --> 01:12:13,720 say normal, compared to when it first started. So I don't really really 890 01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:18,760 take much notice of the voice when it comes to the transmuniums. It is 891 01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:27,279 always the content that I'm listened to and try to understand. And you know, 892 01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,239 well, what I'm interested, what I was interested hearing was from yourself. 893 01:12:30,279 --> 01:12:33,680 But was Ron Andrew when he said he's tried a few times. He's 894 01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:38,000 done it a few times, but he's never too keen of letting completely go, 895 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:45,439 as if there is an element of submission in some respects. And I 896 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:53,720 find that interesting because the data, the research in g research seems to suggest 897 01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:58,119 something very different to that. And as I was saying earlier, you know, 898 01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:04,000 it's quite true that when a medium goes into trance that they are physically 899 01:13:04,119 --> 01:13:13,520 relaxed. However, we seem to have this idea that trance mediumship is something 900 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:18,399 different from the mediumship that we are accustomed to in terms of working on platform 901 01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,800 and so forth. And and if I said to you, you know, 902 01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,960 if I was to ask you now, for example, everyone's listening, so 903 01:13:28,039 --> 01:13:32,279 to speak, if there was to attune to the spirit world, okay, 904 01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,079 no, you instantly get a sense, if you're a medium, instant to 905 01:13:36,079 --> 01:13:39,720 get a sense of the presence of the spirit world and a sense of the 906 01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:42,720 power of the spirit, of the energy of the spirit world, no matter, 907 01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,479 I'll be aware of a particular communicator, a particular personality. But you 908 01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:50,640 get a sense as you as you dalk about this expanse your very mind into 909 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:55,840 this sort of dissociated state. We get this sense of the spirit world there 910 01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,439 and then we like we're aware of the spirit world, and then we're sort 911 01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:06,079 of like aware of the of the waking state of us communicating and talking as 912 01:14:06,119 --> 01:14:12,800 you long platform working trials is just an extension of that. It's literally all 913 01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,880 it is. It is literally just tricking, and that is what the data 914 01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:21,479 suggests when I measured. So I did some work using EEG equipment with trance 915 01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:25,880 mediums. As I said earlier that I wanted to understand what was going on 916 01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:31,159 because I spent you know, several months sitting there when my eyes closed but 917 01:14:31,239 --> 01:14:33,920 there thinking what are I doing now? Do you know what I mean? 918 01:14:34,079 --> 01:14:40,600 Yes, my pre where you go, and realizing that what I was doing 919 01:14:41,159 --> 01:14:45,000 was I was going into this sort of deep minutive stage where I was trying 920 01:14:45,079 --> 01:14:49,359 to sort of get this nothingness. Yeah, and I realized that there's nothing 921 01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:58,960 news was right. I mean silver Birch said about being unconscious that we need 922 01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,279 a quickening of the mind and to communicate through it. If the spirit world 923 01:15:02,359 --> 01:15:08,720 wants you unconscious, then they would do that, you know. So if 924 01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,920 the trials, if you have to be unconscious for trans then the spirit world 925 01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:15,760 can make that happen. But the truthmaking is not unconsciousness. There isn't a 926 01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:19,720 quickening of the mind going on, the same sort of quickening that goes on 927 01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:24,920 when we're working on a platform or doing private sittings and so forth. The 928 01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:31,039 only difference is that what happens is we're going to the trans date is you're 929 01:15:31,119 --> 01:15:36,880 able to hold a single point of focus. If you hold a single point 930 01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:42,720 of focus but not enough, what happens is you then start to be aware 931 01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,439 and then you'll site beware of communication, and that's when the trials to go 932 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,680 up. So when you were talking about that jug so to speak, you 933 01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:54,520 have taken your awareness to a single point of focus. And we know that 934 01:15:55,600 --> 01:16:00,239 the areas of the brain related to trance to do with the frontal at the 935 01:16:00,279 --> 01:16:06,079 frontal lobe, the prefrontal cortext called it that deals specifically with our ability to 936 01:16:06,199 --> 01:16:11,439 attend to a focus point. We know to be able to maintain a focus 937 01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:15,199 point, what we're doing in private sitting. We may be aware of the 938 01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:17,720 spirit world, but we may be aware of the spirit world maybe in a 939 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:23,920 prusseral sort of scense, because we're very much aware of the recipient and so 940 01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,359 forth, you know, whereas when we do the trials, we don't have 941 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,159 the recipient as such, we can just focus on that the spirit world. 942 01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:35,199 We can just focus on that point of where the spirit world are. And 943 01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:42,680 that's what I did, and the eager in search we see and again we're 944 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,319 haveing to clarify something else as well here when comes to mediumship, where it 945 01:16:45,359 --> 01:16:51,119 comes to because we often hear about certain brain waves you have to be in 946 01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:56,720 this brain wave will be alpha or be in the Theta states or the delta 947 01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,760 states or whatever. Unfoughtuly, the brain doesn't work that way. There is 948 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,239 no single state. There is no single brain activity. When we talk about 949 01:17:04,279 --> 01:17:09,720 brain way of activity, we talk not just the brain wave but also the 950 01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:15,039 structure involved, because the brain activity and the structure tells us a little bit. 951 01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:19,119 So you don't have this whole brain going into one sort of state, 952 01:17:19,319 --> 01:17:23,880 you know what I mean. And it's so it's more to do with that 953 01:17:24,079 --> 01:17:29,680 where the activity is occurring in the brain as opposed to the necessarily the brain 954 01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:34,520 activity going on. But what we see is that when someone is working mediumistically, 955 01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:39,720 doing a private sitting, for example, we see we start to see 956 01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:45,239 a growing increase in activity on the right side of the brain. Okay, 957 01:17:45,239 --> 01:17:49,039 so the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere stage where it is. You know, 958 01:17:49,079 --> 01:17:53,520 it's not as if there's a decrease as much, but we see more 959 01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:59,840 activity on the on the on the right side. When someone goes into trual, 960 01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:04,640 what we actually see is a bigger difference between left and right. So 961 01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:09,760 we see more activity and not just more activity on the right web side, 962 01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:15,520 but we also seem to see more consistent activity. It seems to suggest that 963 01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:20,920 the medium's able to maintain that. And I think it's that maintenance of being 964 01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:27,239 aware of the spirit world that brings forth that trance communication. Do you know 965 01:18:27,279 --> 01:18:30,199 what I mean? Where you know, when you're doing mental media, what 966 01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:33,079 perception, mediumship, doing a private sitting or what have you. You know, 967 01:18:33,159 --> 01:18:38,079 you're constantly being aware of the spirit world passing the information being aware of 968 01:18:38,079 --> 01:18:41,840 the spirit world passing, so you're you're chopping and changing, your brain's going 969 01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,520 from one thing to another. Whereas when you're working in trance, you don't 970 01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:49,960 actually have You don't be fair, You don't really care who's sitting in front 971 01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:55,039 of you. Your focus is the spirit world, and your focus is that 972 01:18:55,079 --> 01:19:00,880 point and that point of whether whether it's the jug or whether it's you know, 973 01:19:00,159 --> 01:19:06,399 whether it's a imagining a star in the sky, anything anything like that, 974 01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:12,560 anything that helps you to focus your attention on one spot but still be 975 01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:17,359 aware of the presence of the spirit world. I find is the initiation or 976 01:19:17,399 --> 01:19:26,439 the initiator into or facilitates the trance states that were after So and that seems 977 01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:29,159 to be, as I said, supported with what we see. What I 978 01:19:29,199 --> 01:19:31,880 see seem to be seeing with the data that I did many years ago, 979 01:19:32,159 --> 01:19:39,239 and so I update every once in a while. We do seem to see 980 01:19:39,279 --> 01:19:44,800 this this shift from activity from you know, the left to the right side 981 01:19:45,279 --> 01:19:50,600 of the breed. I'm interested to know as mediums now a clearvoyd you see 982 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:59,000 spirit mea meal and Neil will both both. I don't. I only get 983 01:19:59,039 --> 01:20:04,760 the mental medium ship images in the mind. But that's not fair. Points 984 01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:08,600 we see the images in the mind. We've seen those sort of things. 985 01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:13,560 Yeah, but where do you see them in your mind space? Well, 986 01:20:14,079 --> 01:20:16,439 if you measure the screen. Okay, you've got here and we're here. 987 01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:20,239 Where do you see that? Well? If yeah, I mean it's hard 988 01:20:20,279 --> 01:20:24,680 because it's a bit like trying to describe where there is the dream. But 989 01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:30,520 I feel it's line down below me, just here. And sometimes in the 990 01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,680 earlier days I used to feel something over here on the right, on the 991 01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:39,399 right, uh more on the right, And I remember talking to a guy 992 01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:45,279 a medium. You know, how do you know it's not you or or 993 01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:47,600 yourself? You know, make it up, it's all They're easy. With 994 01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:50,880 myself, I know it's myself thinking this side. But when it's spirit, 995 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:55,159 I feel it this side. And that's interesting because I used to feel it 996 01:20:55,199 --> 01:20:58,680 a lot on the right, but now it seems to come down and it 997 01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:02,479 appears there just in front of me, down there somewhere, which is really 998 01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:09,239 yeah interesting Andrew yourself, Yeah, I see, I'd say mind's eye. 999 01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:12,960 Weirdly, kind of if I'm tuning in, I might feel like like an 1000 01:21:13,079 --> 01:21:18,840 energy or something on my left or my right. Yeah. Sometimes occasionally I've 1001 01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:23,000 seen orbs of light and that's been physically in front of me, so not 1002 01:21:23,039 --> 01:21:26,720 in my mind. It's been kind of like literally there. But again, 1003 01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:32,119 as the first thing when you speak to mediums, majority of mediums talk about 1004 01:21:32,159 --> 01:21:36,079 if they're clearpoint talk about seeing the spirit world kind of in the front but 1005 01:21:36,119 --> 01:21:41,800 on the right side, which seems to be, you know, indicative of 1006 01:21:42,119 --> 01:21:45,239 being aware of the spirit world in some way. And mean, for me, 1007 01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:46,720 I know that if I'm working with the spirit world, just take my 1008 01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:51,359 attention to this space. I mean, obviously I'm probably reverse in the in 1009 01:21:51,399 --> 01:21:55,760 the capra here, but you know, I say myself, I take my 1010 01:21:55,800 --> 01:22:00,840 wing is into this right space here, and by take my when is there, 1011 01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:03,960 and asking the spirit world to draw close, I start to start working 1012 01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:10,680 with the spirit world in some way. But of course what you were saying 1013 01:22:12,279 --> 01:22:15,800 also, you know about the objective I suppose in the way, no is 1014 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:21,439 it objective clairvoyance or subjective clear voices is often the term that's often used. 1015 01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:25,479 But people saying, lo, I could see the spirit world bear with you 1016 01:22:26,399 --> 01:22:30,159 almost physically. Now, what we've going to remember is that everything is subjective, 1017 01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:32,079 you know, even what we're doing here. Now, you know, 1018 01:22:33,119 --> 01:22:38,279 in a psychological set of mirror science, perspective is subjective because now it is 1019 01:22:38,399 --> 01:22:44,119 that we are creating an image within our own minds based on the century inputs 1020 01:22:44,119 --> 01:22:47,560 that we're getting. So yeah, as I thought that was interesting that you 1021 01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:49,760 know that most meaning talk about the right side, and it's the sort of 1022 01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:55,520 thing we see. It seems to lend. It seems a cocidental perhaps, 1023 01:22:56,079 --> 01:23:00,399 but we see that with the EEG data as well, the examblement of data 1024 01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:09,399 over the right side and the frontal frontal cortex and down the temporal which is 1025 01:23:11,159 --> 01:23:15,680 this side the years, so to speak, the temple side of the hemisphere, 1026 01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:17,960 of the right side of the brain, and this shift between being almost 1027 01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:28,279 a balance to a left and right right dominant hemispheric shift or clairvoyance or mediumship 1028 01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,600 that seems to sort of grow from and seem to get stronger as we go 1029 01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:38,279 from the perception mediumship to the trance mediumship. Mm hmm. Well see, 1030 01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:42,359 I mean maybe the data isn't there, but I'm just wondering about where you 1031 01:23:42,399 --> 01:23:46,000 go the deep trance state where people go into a trance produce the physical phenomenal 1032 01:23:46,039 --> 01:23:51,920 like materialize spirits. Do you have anything on that I don't. I have 1033 01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:58,640 inquired with a number of traps with a number of physical mediumship. Physical mediums 1034 01:24:00,199 --> 01:24:05,760 have been tooth forth coming in wanting to partake in understanding what's going on neurologically 1035 01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:11,840 with them, which is a little bit disappointing, but I was understandable as 1036 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,199 well. But as I said, you know, I'm always I've got this 1037 01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:21,239 pausible EEG equipment. So if there's a physical medium out there listening to us, 1038 01:24:21,279 --> 01:24:24,840 you know, and wants to parts eight in that, do you reckon 1039 01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:30,159 the cond Seller's work Neil Well, Philip might be open to it. Of 1040 01:24:30,199 --> 01:24:34,039 the can Sellers, we mean the twins Ronnie and Philip Kinsella. They're in 1041 01:24:34,079 --> 01:24:42,039 Bedfordshire and Philip is the medium Philip kins Seller and Ronnie will is many times 1042 01:24:42,039 --> 01:24:44,960 that you know he hasn't got our psychic phone in his body, which is 1043 01:24:45,079 --> 01:24:50,000 very interesting considering they're twins. Although Ronnie has talked about having certain visions from 1044 01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:56,359 time to told him he's mentioned those to me, but Philip has been I 1045 01:24:56,399 --> 01:25:00,359 think he's been through sort of I don't know the words tested, simply it 1046 01:25:00,359 --> 01:25:03,600 has been tested. I think, I don't. It's not a physical medium 1047 01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:10,279 that I don't think. So he does mental clairvoids on stage and stuff, 1048 01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:13,319 you know, sort of sort of stuff that you would do. And I've 1049 01:25:13,319 --> 01:25:17,199 done open platform or whatever it is demos and stuff. I don't think he's 1050 01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:21,600 a physical medium in the sense of like Helen Duncan would have been, or 1051 01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:27,159 anything like that juice and the ectoplasmic stuff, but I'm sure it'd be willing 1052 01:25:27,279 --> 01:25:32,880 to be a participant in some tests for future whatever's you know or keep certainly 1053 01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:38,960 bear those those individuals in mind. And you have a pot mentioned something as 1054 01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:45,000 well that you mentioned about what experience about whether it's my imagination or the spirit 1055 01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:49,520 world. And there's an interesting study that was published in twenty a couple of 1056 01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:57,039 years ago in twenty twenty, I think it was that was published where our 1057 01:25:57,039 --> 01:26:01,279 researchers were looking specifically at that wanted to see if there was a difference between 1058 01:26:02,079 --> 01:26:11,880 the electrocoltical activity of a medium that was working mediumistically and when they were maybe 1059 01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:16,520 recalling a memory or using their imagination in some way. And I think they 1060 01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:20,600 also looked as the meditation as well. So they've got a group of mediums 1061 01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:29,760 to get about six mediums together and got them to work mediamistically, go meditation 1062 01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,159 imagined and tell a story in a contitious story, so to speak, and 1063 01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:40,199 look at the brain activity that was going on, and they found clear differences 1064 01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:45,760 between and I suppose in a way as mediums, that's no beach, no 1065 01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:49,840 big surprise, but you know, again, it gives you an illustration that 1066 01:26:50,159 --> 01:26:55,800 know that there are researchers out there that are open minded and interested in trying 1067 01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:02,279 to understand what's going on. But they did find this difference between no imagination 1068 01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:06,680 and mediumship and medimship and the other states as well, So they were able 1069 01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:13,279 to classify that a mediumistic altered state was a distinct state separate from all the 1070 01:27:13,319 --> 01:27:16,920 other states normal Wakan states. So you know that there is something going on. 1071 01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:23,640 So researchers know there's something going on. And and you know, I 1072 01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:28,840 mean we were talking earlier about that there is a rowing body of evidence supportty 1073 01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:36,600 mediumship and supporting spirituals and survival research and so forth, and and you know, 1074 01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:41,159 to a point now we're actually getting got one journal that was published in 1075 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:46,720 twenty one, an article publishing the journal in twenty one that's actually clearly staged 1076 01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:53,560 that you know that when you consider the fact that you know that these mediums 1077 01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:57,840 that went through the studies, it was a bit of a meta analysis. 1078 01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:00,199 They looked at all the research over the last twenty years to come up with 1079 01:28:00,239 --> 01:28:02,680 some sort of thing, and then they did their own research as well, 1080 01:28:03,159 --> 01:28:08,840 and they basically said that, you know, whereas in the past researchers would 1081 01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:13,079 often say that there is something interesting going on here, that these megians are 1082 01:28:13,119 --> 01:28:19,960 able to obtain a normalistic, normalistic information about the deceased, but never went 1083 01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:24,720 as part to say where that information was coming from. They just said, 1084 01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,119 you know, these individuals are able to get this information. You know, 1085 01:28:28,199 --> 01:28:30,720 we've got we've got journals, our articles and journals. Now they're actually saying, 1086 01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:33,239 look, we have to buy the bullet here, you know, in 1087 01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:40,359 the sense that when we look at all the other possible explanations of the sources 1088 01:28:40,359 --> 01:28:46,520 of information, the only logical how inclusion can be that not only are mediums 1089 01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:51,920 able to receive information about deceased people, but the sources of that information are 1090 01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:56,920 the deceased themselves, you know. So they're actually just saying that, look, 1091 01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:59,680 you know, we can't figure around the bush anymore, you know, 1092 01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:01,920 we have to be honest and saying no, that logically, scientifically, if 1093 01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:05,359 we was to look at all the possible explanations, the one that is that 1094 01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:10,119 can explain it more of what mediums are doing is a back of the informations 1095 01:29:10,199 --> 01:29:15,920 coming from the deceased themselves. And that's actually quite a big statement to hand 1096 01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:20,600 like a peer review journal and to say that minims are trill. So I 1097 01:29:23,119 --> 01:29:26,760 wonder how that was received. This is it? Why? Why? Why 1098 01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:30,159 then? If this is in peer reviewed journals and it has got scientific backing, 1099 01:29:30,199 --> 01:29:32,880 why then have we got people like Chris French and they, you know, 1100 01:29:33,039 --> 01:29:36,199 various others saying that it doesn't exist and there's no evidence for it. 1101 01:29:38,119 --> 01:29:43,119 Well, there is, there's one. They're not All individuals are not always 1102 01:29:43,159 --> 01:29:47,840 as one performed as they think they are. Well, what's plight I suppose, 1103 01:29:48,159 --> 01:29:54,359 and not what it's formed? And because I know, I was one 1104 01:29:54,359 --> 01:30:00,000 of the provisations I do. Is is debunking the skeptics in spiritualism mediumship. 1105 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:04,039 That's why it brands and you know, and it's it's very cliche, very 1106 01:30:04,079 --> 01:30:09,840 easy for sciences to say there's no evidence for it, you know, because 1107 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:14,800 it' that's what they're taught. There's nos for it. And also because then 1108 01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:19,359 there is a massive paradigm shift in science, you know, and scientific understanding 1109 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:24,439 if this is real, you know what I mean, And science doesn't work 1110 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:30,720 that way. Science doesn't like being shifts in understanding because if you think everything 1111 01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:33,079 is based on the physical model of the world, the physical model of the 1112 01:30:33,159 --> 01:30:36,319 universe, physical modeled the body, and so forth. So then it starts 1113 01:30:36,319 --> 01:30:40,159 to say, as you've got evidence that there's more than that that there we 1114 01:30:40,199 --> 01:30:43,479 have this spirit, we have this conscious, that mind exists after the physical 1115 01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:47,680 death. There's nothing, there's nothing in science that bridges the two gaps, 1116 01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:53,640 bridges to use, and the science doesn't like that. So we're back to 1117 01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,760 the bias thing again. So it's not so much bias, it's just the 1118 01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:02,119 fact the scientific method and science it's health obtaining knowledge is done through iterative steps. 1119 01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:06,439 You know. So even though we have this this article in this peer 1120 01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:11,920 review journal that says that, you know, it is quite appropriate in the 1121 01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:15,680 scientific community to then go back to this article, is that actually yes, 1122 01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:21,279 he is saying that that is a conclusion, but you know, and and 1123 01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:26,520 come up with some other era because it's just the way that science works. 1124 01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:31,680 Is not to dismiss anyone's research. It's just the way that our body of 1125 01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:38,760 knowledge is acquired, no, and reinforced. No. So you know a 1126 01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:44,800 lot of the studies, example and studies done with Richard Wiseman and Kieran O'Keefe 1127 01:31:45,119 --> 01:31:48,359 did a study back in I think it was two thousand and eight or two 1128 01:31:48,399 --> 01:31:55,199 thousand and six, using a technique called the Pratt and Birge technique. And 1129 01:31:55,239 --> 01:32:00,880 what they did there they had five mediums at each medium did five cities and 1130 01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:09,880 then each person, each sitter received not only their sitting, but the sittings 1131 01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:17,119 from all the other recipients and so basically what we called decoy transcripts, and 1132 01:32:17,239 --> 01:32:24,079 they had to judge and grade out of all their transcripts, five of them 1133 01:32:24,119 --> 01:32:29,520 were theirs and twenty wasn't. There'll be twenty five in total, which ones 1134 01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,880 were theirs? Right? We weren't theirs? Yeah, idea being that if 1135 01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:38,039 the media was evidential and the spirit world was there and such, they should 1136 01:32:38,199 --> 01:32:44,560 choose their five top breedings. And and what we found was in most cases 1137 01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:49,399 the recipients didn't And so no, I think it was I think Richard Wiseman 1138 01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:55,840 and o' kieth basically said that they are that don't ever say there is no 1139 01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:59,600 such thing as a spirit world, you just say it didn't support the hypothesis 1140 01:33:00,039 --> 01:33:05,279 that there is a spirit world or communication. But so they published that paper, 1141 01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:11,319 but quite appropriately, other scientists looked at that and found flaws and laws 1142 01:33:11,359 --> 01:33:15,920 in them in their analysis, flaws in their experimental set up. For example, 1143 01:33:15,119 --> 01:33:19,840 you know, they got the mediums to come and come to the university, 1144 01:33:20,119 --> 01:33:25,760 so they had them sit in the university lab. You know, well, 1145 01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:30,840 you know, most mediums are used to nicom features and maybe pot plants 1146 01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,880 and the church and were them and so forth. It's true though, because 1147 01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,880 you know, as mediums training, you know, we don't we're not we 1148 01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:42,000 don't sit in them in a sort of like a magnolia room with a one 1149 01:33:42,159 --> 01:33:45,920 or two way mirror or things like that handler is looking at us. You 1150 01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:48,680 know, there is a different environment. And so you know, a lot 1151 01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:53,600 of the criticisms to research like that, for example, and not just picking 1152 01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:57,439 on their research, but research like that is we asked, now, is 1153 01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,920 there any ecological validity to it? Does it represent the real world? Is 1154 01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:05,600 it a real sort of well sort of environment. It's not. I could 1155 01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:09,960 have an impact, have a factor on what's going on, you know, 1156 01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:14,439 and so you know, and this is just a common process in science in 1157 01:34:15,119 --> 01:34:19,600 terms of you know that a paper is published, people criticize it. Some 1158 01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:24,239 people say that's great, let's I'll replicate it, and others will just say, 1159 01:34:24,239 --> 01:34:27,000 well, look that's interesting, but I've got other better things to be 1160 01:34:27,039 --> 01:34:30,399 doing. It's just the way science works. But the point is that there 1161 01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:33,800 is a there is a body of literature out there. A lot actually comes 1162 01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:42,199 from Brazil because they have spiritism out in Brazil and they're very much you know, 1163 01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:50,199 they have a quite a rich culture in terms of spiritualist or spiritism in 1164 01:34:50,239 --> 01:34:54,800 that respect. So there's a lot of surgeons, a lot of doctors, 1165 01:34:55,039 --> 01:35:00,680 or of researchers in Brazil coming out with very interesting information. Automatic writing, 1166 01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:05,800 for example, there was one study that was done by a Brazilian researcher looking 1167 01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:11,760 at automatic writers. So for those who don't understand, automatic writers are those 1168 01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:18,920 who going to the trance state and basically they're hanging moves and writes the letters 1169 01:35:19,039 --> 01:35:24,000 or words from the spirit world so as we the spirit word will control them 1170 01:35:24,039 --> 01:35:28,600 the hand or arm or what have you. And what they found is, 1171 01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:33,319 again this was a they had the medium sit inside a PET scanner, so 1172 01:35:33,399 --> 01:35:39,119 that's a positronic emission topography, so basically looking at the brain again, and 1173 01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:45,079 they had these medium sitting in the scanner going into trials and writing, and 1174 01:35:45,119 --> 01:35:53,199 what they found was the areas of the brain that are associated with writing now 1175 01:35:53,359 --> 01:36:01,359 cognition in terms of written words and so forth, were non active. So 1176 01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,479 whereas not if they weren't an all I can state in writing, these parts 1177 01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:11,159 of the brain would be active. So it seems to show that in a 1178 01:36:11,199 --> 01:36:13,920 trance stage on this aus made writing state, the areas of the brain that 1179 01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,880 they would expected to be active in writing weren't active. And the course that 1180 01:36:18,199 --> 01:36:24,640 they leave the paper the questions saying, look, how are able to write 1181 01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:29,239 you? Now? Where do they get these words from? And so forth. 1182 01:36:29,319 --> 01:36:33,640 So there's there's quite a lot of interesting research that is coming out at 1183 01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:40,600 the moment. And I've also got if anyone's interested, I under perhaps I 1184 01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:45,680 can provide you with the YouTube channel there. But I've done series of interviews 1185 01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:58,439 with scientiment researchers to celebrate the Internationals Spirations Federation Centenary. And there's a series 1186 01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:05,279 I think of six or seven ins with the researchers in the survival who talk 1187 01:37:05,399 --> 01:37:11,199 about where their research is going. And it just gives you an idea that 1188 01:37:11,199 --> 01:37:14,800 the some some are supportive, some are not so supportive, Some are sitting 1189 01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,000 on the fence, but it's it just gives you an idea of a feel 1190 01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:21,479 for what the where the literature is, where the research is, where the 1191 01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:29,840 understanding is at the moment in terms of survival and meaningship and what could YouTube 1192 01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:31,720 channel that be? Can you remember what it's called. Yeah, it's called 1193 01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:38,079 the ISICF, The ISICF Science Boring. Okay, cool with a counselor on 1194 01:37:38,119 --> 01:37:41,560 that the research on that ICF Science Borum. And it's a it's a channel 1195 01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:46,039 that I created over the interviews of the researchers. Excellent. Do you think 1196 01:37:46,079 --> 01:37:53,239 there's I mean I always think that there's there's there's like a deliberate kind of 1197 01:37:53,319 --> 01:37:59,119 dumbing down of this kind of stuff by the establishment, if you like that. 1198 01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:05,319 I mean, for instance, we bend our friend Ben does a talk 1199 01:38:05,399 --> 01:38:11,720 on Helen Duncan, the wartime spirituous medium who was bringing back dead sailors saying 1200 01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:16,800 they sunk on the HMS Barn and the British establishment on the public to know 1201 01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:20,279 about that. So she, you know, according to the idea that she 1202 01:38:20,319 --> 01:38:25,199 had to be stopped at all costs, and she was taken to the Old 1203 01:38:25,279 --> 01:38:29,000 Baby and tried on some come toup charges of witchcraft, et cetera, et 1204 01:38:29,039 --> 01:38:32,000 cetera, and put away for the remainder of the war years. And nowhere 1205 01:38:32,039 --> 01:38:38,680 during the course of the trial was the mention of dead sailors returning from the 1206 01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:42,479 barn and to you know, say they survived the grave and the ship went 1207 01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:45,399 down. That was never mentioned because that point to the fact that she was 1208 01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,640 genuine, and they had to come up with all sorts of trumped up ideas 1209 01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:54,760 that she was a fake and to put her away. So it's almost like 1210 01:38:54,840 --> 01:39:00,000 that they know the establishment, certainly, the war time establishment of that period 1211 01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:02,760 knew that there was a spirit well, because otherwise they wouldn't be trying to 1212 01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:06,760 hide it from the British public. Did you think there's a deliberate attempt out 1213 01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:15,279 there in regards to the establishment. I can only speak from the science of 1214 01:39:15,399 --> 01:39:18,800 community in the literature and journals and so forth what I would say, And 1215 01:39:19,319 --> 01:39:25,560 you know, and some of the complaints and moments that I've heard other researchers 1216 01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:30,279 who research mediums have and that they do say, it is very difficult to 1217 01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:40,359 get a paper published in a journal where you're talking about mediums or mediumship and 1218 01:39:41,199 --> 01:39:44,239 so forth. No, he's very difficult. You know the paper, for 1219 01:39:44,319 --> 01:39:49,319 example, that Richard Wiseman, I think Richard Wiseman's and Keish published was actually 1220 01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:54,399 the one of the journals of the British Psychological Society, and he's probably no 1221 01:39:54,600 --> 01:40:00,159 accident. Dare I say that their findings were that there was no it wasn't 1222 01:40:00,159 --> 01:40:03,279 supported, do you know what I mean? So, and the General of 1223 01:40:03,279 --> 01:40:09,199 the British psychos is quite a main journal, whereas you know, those that 1224 01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:15,159 are supportive seemed to be within the sort of field of parapsychology, the field 1225 01:40:15,199 --> 01:40:19,680 of you know, nomalistic psychology and things like that, so they're like specialists 1226 01:40:19,680 --> 01:40:25,920 sort of journals in many ways. So it goes what do you feel about 1227 01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:30,800 the concept that in a weird way? And you know about the Philip experiment 1228 01:40:30,039 --> 01:40:34,560 and for people for listeners who don't know the Philip experient. In the early 1229 01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:42,359 nineteen seventies, a group of scientists created a fictional character and then used a 1230 01:40:42,359 --> 01:40:45,720 wiki board and seiantists to try and contact this character. And it turns out 1231 01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:49,920 that this character was actually then communicating with them. But it's all it was 1232 01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:53,760 all fiction. It was all coming from their own mind or their own creation. 1233 01:40:54,680 --> 01:41:00,680 What do you feel about the fact that some people might be if the 1234 01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,000 if their worldview is that this is all a load of rubbish, they are 1235 01:41:04,039 --> 01:41:10,640 creating that that they are manifesting that as their results, whereas people who view 1236 01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:15,680 it that it is real are creating and manifesting that for themselves. So there's 1237 01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:18,359 kind of like a split in reality, this kind of thing. Yeah, 1238 01:41:18,399 --> 01:41:26,079 I mean, you know, there is there's with all phenomena that pertains to 1239 01:41:26,119 --> 01:41:30,880 be spiritual or medimistic in nature, you know, there there's always an alternative 1240 01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:33,880 explanation, and that's just the way things go. I mean, for example, 1241 01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:38,640 we had this idiomotor response, you know, the ability for people to 1242 01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:43,600 move things without really being conscious of moving things, you know, you know, 1243 01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:48,119 we had that as in hypnosis, we use the idiomotor response to for 1244 01:41:48,239 --> 01:41:57,239 the individual's unconscious to signify certain or answer certain questions that the individal may not 1245 01:41:57,319 --> 01:42:02,760 be consciously aware of answers. So there's no so things can can manifest, 1246 01:42:03,279 --> 01:42:08,119 you know. And and one of the things I I'm very conscious of is 1247 01:42:08,159 --> 01:42:13,199 the fact that there is so much we do not know about the human consciousness, 1248 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:17,439 the human psyche, and it's it is very tricky to be able to 1249 01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:24,000 fight any you know, where is the line between what is us and what 1250 01:42:24,039 --> 01:42:30,800 we've done and what maybe the spirit world are doing and so forth. It 1251 01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:36,159 is a very it is a very great difficult sort of area to to tread 1252 01:42:36,159 --> 01:42:41,840 and try and to define. So it's it kind of goes in it in 1253 01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,000 a really this is a possibility. I'm not saying this is the case of 1254 01:42:45,079 --> 01:42:48,800 a possibility that in actual fact, when you've got a believer or somebody that's 1255 01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:54,520 that believes in the in the supernatural, their reality is correct for them. 1256 01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:58,000 And then when you've got like a Chris French or Richard Wiseman who don't believe 1257 01:42:58,239 --> 01:43:01,760 their reality is actually correct but for them if it is there anything actually And 1258 01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:05,359 there's a famous study and we call that experiment to effect, you know, 1259 01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:09,840 where as an experimenter has a this is what I mean. This is why 1260 01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:16,159 it's such a mindfield, because humans are complex individuals, and we're talking about 1261 01:43:16,279 --> 01:43:19,359 humans in the role of this thing. No human behavior, human psychology, 1262 01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:23,760 human beliefs, and so forth. You know, there's this thing called experimental 1263 01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:31,560 effect where those experimenters who are more open minded to a certain sort of phenomena 1264 01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:39,800 will experience that are more inclined to experience that or get more favorable results than 1265 01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:42,800 those who are more skeptical. There's there's a famous article. I remember the 1266 01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:45,920 other researcher, but I know again this. I think there's Richard Wiseman and 1267 01:43:46,399 --> 01:43:53,159 Marilyn Smith's or Marilyn Smiths something like that. I think memory says we correctly, 1268 01:43:54,399 --> 01:43:56,720 and some are probably going to correct me on this. But I think 1269 01:43:56,720 --> 01:44:00,359 they were doing looking at the efficacy of spiritual healing. Mm hmm. They 1270 01:44:00,399 --> 01:44:05,920 both did the same experiment together, I understand it. Both looked at the 1271 01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:13,079 same data, but both come from different both concluded different results, and yet 1272 01:44:13,199 --> 01:44:15,039 everything was the same, do you know what I mean? So one was 1273 01:44:15,039 --> 01:44:20,479 supportive, one wasn't, and it was just down to and and other things, 1274 01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:25,199 and we said, no, there is you know that for example, 1275 01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:29,600 the other aspects of experimental effects and might be for example, know how did 1276 01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:33,640 the researcher greet the medium prior to the experiment. You know, if the 1277 01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:40,600 person's antagonistic towards maybe they will be off and cold, you know to the 1278 01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:43,520 person you know, or maybe they would try to be worn for any But 1279 01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:47,000 you know, we know when someone isn't We can read through the lines whereas 1280 01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:53,319 somebody who was supportive, you know, maybe enthusiastic, maybe open, maybe 1281 01:44:53,359 --> 01:44:56,520 one to the medium coming in and sitting down and having a chat and all 1282 01:44:56,520 --> 01:45:00,520 this sort of thing. So there's there's a whole host of dynamics involved that 1283 01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:04,319 can have an influence and that experimental fact is why that. Then you've got 1284 01:45:04,359 --> 01:45:09,359 the confirmation biases of the individuals. You've got the whole host of them in 1285 01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:15,239 that's just the researcher. Now, then you've got the you know, how 1286 01:45:15,239 --> 01:45:17,199 does the medium feel? Now? Does the medium like the look of the 1287 01:45:17,239 --> 01:45:20,720 researcher? Does that have a factor how they work? You know, do 1288 01:45:20,800 --> 01:45:25,640 they like the environment that they're working in? You know, are they stressed 1289 01:45:25,640 --> 01:45:28,359 and they had a bad day? Did they miss the trade that they have 1290 01:45:28,399 --> 01:45:30,840 to run in the rain? Now, there's all sorts of things that can 1291 01:45:31,359 --> 01:45:35,920 can influence and that there is. Yeah, there's a whole host of things 1292 01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:39,960 there. And this is why, for example, why this is such a 1293 01:45:39,960 --> 01:45:44,479 broad field and why you know, people may arguably you could say that you 1294 01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:48,880 know, we'll never get to a diffidiative answer about this, but we will 1295 01:45:49,039 --> 01:45:53,840 learn an awful lot about what it is to be human. I think, 1296 01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:57,880 you know, you know the nature of humankind through this type of research. 1297 01:45:59,199 --> 01:46:00,640 But you know they do you go. I mean, if anyone is interesting 1298 01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:05,000 and joined some hype ESPR and they've got a database there going back to eighteen 1299 01:46:05,039 --> 01:46:11,680 eighty two, you know, and it is full of literature, you know, 1300 01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:17,319 talking about the research and William Russell Madge, all these sort of big 1301 01:46:17,359 --> 01:46:23,199 players of the Victorian era and the and the findings that they had, and 1302 01:46:23,239 --> 01:46:30,520 it's it's very hard to come out reading all of that stuff if you've if 1303 01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:32,319 you've got a very supportive wife that allows you to do nothing but read the 1304 01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:40,720 source and come away from that and not conclude that there is there isn't there 1305 01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:46,520 is a stantial body we every don supporting survival of physical death. It's interesting 1306 01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:51,159 because I've heard you mentioned in a previous interview about the SPR that that they've 1307 01:46:51,199 --> 01:46:57,800 got their own version of Wikipedia on their pages or something, because they in 1308 01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:01,920 its own right is very unfake, livable towards any psychic or mediumship type of 1309 01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:09,359 stuff. That's right. Yeah, they they got they started using Wikipedia initially, 1310 01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:15,399 and they started getting fed up because you had the griller skeptics, so 1311 01:47:15,399 --> 01:47:18,760 it would go and change everything. I think the lines that were supported and 1312 01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:25,199 so before and uh and and some of which allegedly, I would say, 1313 01:47:25,199 --> 01:47:30,439 and allegedly was funded by the late James Randy who used to donate money to 1314 01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:40,520 this area of ensuring that these Wikipedia pages reflected certain views. So we say, 1315 01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:43,640 and that's that's what I've understood. I maybe rule that's well, that's 1316 01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:48,520 what I said, lynched. But they got so it's SBR seemed to get 1317 01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:55,680 so fed up with it that they decided to create their own encyclopedia. That's 1318 01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:59,920 why Encyclopedia, which anyone go on to and have a look on their website 1319 01:48:00,359 --> 01:48:06,600 and it lists it's it's wonderful resource with the research regarding all sorts of phenomena, 1320 01:48:08,119 --> 01:48:15,000 not just mediumship, but things to do with ESP experiments and all sorts 1321 01:48:15,039 --> 01:48:23,159 of things interesting. So I think we're draw to a close. But if 1322 01:48:23,159 --> 01:48:26,479 people want to find out more about you, Chris, I know you have 1323 01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:30,880 some appearances and things. Where can they find out about you and contact you 1324 01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:38,039 if they need to? Oh, dear, I know a great advertisers the 1325 01:48:38,079 --> 01:48:43,560 stuff I'm doing. But no, I do have a website. We are 1326 01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:45,960 in Chris coonmony dot info that people are went out to go to. If 1327 01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:50,880 they want to and and I can find or at least contact with they have 1328 01:48:51,039 --> 01:49:00,800 questions. Okay, do you have any books or anything in the planet at 1329 01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:12,520 the changing times? Next on the sixteenth it fix sixteenth of November, I'll 1330 01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:20,960 be doing a talk on the science of readiumship and amusing some technology to measure 1331 01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:27,760 some brain waves. There's some willing participants in the audience to see well, 1332 01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,239 first of all if they've got a brain, but also to see how these 1333 01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:38,880 how things change when they doing certain given exercises. Unfortunately our show goes out 1334 01:49:38,960 --> 01:49:41,840 after that, but I know that it's good. I know that you've got 1335 01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:46,880 a version of that talk on on I think it's the Grastonbury Symposium as for 1336 01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:53,680 you, yes, yeah, So if they can't get to that because they've 1337 01:49:53,720 --> 01:49:58,600 missed it is to look at the same kind of presentation where you've been in 1338 01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:02,079 this. The main thing on a participant that was meditating I think and a 1339 01:50:02,239 --> 01:50:08,520 rainway or something which very interesting. All right, but thank you very very 1340 01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:13,479 much indeed, Chris Canny for your time expertise have been presenting us with your 1341 01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:18,359 research and ideas. It's been very fascinating hour or two. Any last words, 1342 01:50:18,359 --> 01:50:24,239 Andy, just thanks for Chris for coming on and if you did want 1343 01:50:24,239 --> 01:50:29,520 to join us on the Apollo Detectives, that would be fantastic because I enjoy 1344 01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:34,479 listening to the scientific angle on things, because the spiritual world and psychic world 1345 01:50:34,479 --> 01:50:38,239 can be very kind of airy, fairy and floaty, and it's it's nice 1346 01:50:38,239 --> 01:50:42,399 to kind of have a bit of a grounding with it sometimes must and multi 1347 01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:47,279 flows. It's very very driven in perigal evidence. Yeah, find it, 1348 01:50:47,279 --> 01:50:51,640 it's going to find it. That's it. Yeah, it's more airy, 1349 01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:57,680 very in space because there's no gravity that the very maybe I don't know. 1350 01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:02,680 Well, thank you Chris for joining us, and stay tuned and look out 1351 01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:06,520 for us next month on the Paranormal Peak Show. Join us for our December 1352 01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:11,239 show. We'll hopefully have some special guests of that one. Listen out for 1353 01:51:11,319 --> 01:51:15,880 us on all the podcast platforms and on YouTube. This is Neil Ward and 1354 01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:19,640 Andy Chapman and Chris Corley saying thanks for listening, good night, take care 1355 01:51:56,920 --> 01:52:03,199 you're listening to The Paranormal UK Radio Network voted number one for paranormal podcasts in the year