WEBVTT

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You. Chilly Effect is sponsored by
Wall Street Window dot com and listeners like

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you. Nowell fifth day of June
twenty twenty three, allegedly according to that

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thing we call a calendar, and
this is indeed the show you were looking

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for. How do I know that
because you're hearing me Babylon about the date

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and everything else. Anyway, if
you're hearing us live on Ocelli dot com

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and the various radio apps and all
that good stuff, welcome to you.

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I know most of you will listen
to this via your final slab of choice,

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your applicable application, your podcast.
It is your and uh that means

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who knows what time of day it
is? Day it is where it is,

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when you are when you're hearing this, no matter what, welcome to

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it. So it is Moonday,
Monday, in the first broadcast day of

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the week on Ocelli dot Com.
We've already heard from Chris Graves and he

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had an interesting guest earlier. But
now it's time for this. Um.

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I'll tell you a topic that is
not often discussed anymore except in passing.

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What about that collapse, that financial
collapse that occurred in two thousand and eight?

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Right, Oh, well, you
know Freddie and Fanny, Oh well,

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that was the problem. No,
it was idiots who were borrowing money

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that they knew they couldn't possibly pay
back. It was the market. It

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was greedy real estate people, it
was greedy bankers, It was all these

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things. We all suffered through a
bit of a problem there in the early

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aughts, so to speak. Right, I mean, the majority of you

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guys are old enough to have been
adults at that time, for sure.

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I know a couple of you aren't, and you know, prepare for an

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education. But you know, the
majority of you were old enough you remember

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it, even if you didn't own
a house. I mean, I was,

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what, four years out of a
really vicious three four years out of

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a really vicious divorce, So I
mean, you know, I had to

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sell off most of what I retained
from that divorce, which fit into one

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hefty garbage bag, and that was
about what I walked away with, and

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I had to sell off most of
that, so I'm starting from scratch for

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those years. No house, okay, the car she got that, you

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know, whatever else Okay, I
had nothing. And yet this affected me

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because even if you were renting,
even if you were trying to conduct business.

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Even if you were I don't know, work in certain jobs, you

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got affected. And then the next
thing we know is there was a giant

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tart bailout. What's that going to
mean? Does that mean that we're all

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going to suffer now from some nassive
inflationary curve? Oh, this is Obama's

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wall. Blah blah blah, and
on and on. Everybody wanted to do

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a spot, you know, at
tribute blame to someone, and it was

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usually an industry or whatever. Well, I've got a guest tonight who might

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have gotten a different version of the
blame game played on him. Not might

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have did, but anyway, we're
gonna hear all about that. And I'm

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trying to avoid the Freudian slip because
I saw his last name on a list,

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and I saw the last named Viola, and I thought to myself,

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I remember a picture for the New
York Mets named Viola, and that was

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Frank Viola. This is Tony Viola. And I'm gonna give you guys a

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website to go to to check out
his story for yourself, Okay, because

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this is really interesting, and I
know that he's probably not alone, because

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others probably bent and broke under pressures
to carry some of the burden of blame

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from the mess that went on in
those odd days. But this story ought

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to be very interesting. And you're
not gonna hear a lot from me except

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to ask a couple of questions about
his personal journey through this. And oh,

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by the way, you know,
I just full disclosure. Everybody who

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listens to my show knows I don't
have a lot of faith in the legal

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system. I don't think this is
going to bolster your faith in the legal

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system when you hear this part of
it. And what happened to a guy

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who Look again, I got nothing
against people how they make a living right,

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and uh, and and whatever.
I mean, Look, we just

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had a real estate hustler from Queen's
was our was our president. Uh,

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what are you gonna do? I
don't hold things against real estate people.

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Good thing I don't um anyway,
Anthony or Tony Viola again, you guys

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have got to check out this website. And the name of it, by

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the way, is free Tony Viola
dot com. Now he appears to be

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free today, but then again,
he's still got problems. And uh,

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we're going to get an explanation about
all of that and how that links to

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the financial crisis of two thousand and
eight, etc. Uh, right about

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now, Tony, How are you
doing tonight? Hey, Chuck, I'm

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doing great, And thanks so much
for the opportunity to be on your show.

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I really appreciate it. Well,
I appreciate you for taking the time.

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Um, your your story linked to
one of the more interesting recent times

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that again has been sort of memory
hold. Everybody forgets about it except they

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bring it up in passing when we
talk about this, you know, tremendous

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financial problem we're having now with massive
inflation, and again people want to a

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spot, you know, a distribute
blame, uh two different individuals and different

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groups and so on and so forth. And I gotta tell you, Um,

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your story of how blame sort of
got applied to you is it's just

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messed up. I mean, I'm
laughing. I'm not laughing because it's funny.

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I'm laughing because, of course,
and I had not heard your story

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until very recently, and it is
it's it's remarkable. Um. You know

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again, you're you're not part of
Freddie and Fanny or anything like that.

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What was it you were doing before
that financial collapse? That you know again,

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was sort of activated or initiated or
ignited by the real estate crisis and

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all that. Oh and by the
way, you were in real estate at

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that time, weren't you. Yeah, So I started a real state business

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my high schools sweetheart, Katrina Rose, she was a photographer. She still

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love the old houses in Cleveland.
We're in an old community, old part

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of town, and so we started
buying houses and fixing up houses. And

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then we didn't really have that much
money, and there was other folks in

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town that had more capital than we
did, and so we became real estate

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agents. We became realtors, helping
people buy and sell houses, and we

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engaged in property management. And while
we were building this business, these banks

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created all of these zany no money
down by ten houses at once loan products.

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And in the old days, the
people who loaned you money cared if

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you'd paid it back or not.
But in the aughts, as you said,

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the banks sort of separated making a
loan from the risk, and they

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packaged these loans and resold them on
Wall Street, and the result was a

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big real estate boom. People were
making money, banks were loosening their lending

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standards, and we were real estate
agents. We never did mortgages or had

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anything to do with the financing,
but the government blamed me. I guess

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I'm the guy that caused the financial
crisis. According to the United States Attorney's

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Office, they rated our company one
day. So you know, fast forward,

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We've built this business head over one
hundred team members. We had offices

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in Ohio and Florida, and the
FBI kicks the door in and get guns.

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We got CNN Live breaking news nation's
largest right mortgage fraud case. This

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is the guy, This Tony Viola
guy just crashed the economy. And they

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said that I stole forty six million
dollars by creating all these fake mortgage loans.

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Now, wait, yeah, wait
wait wait wait wait wait wait hold

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hold our office, hold on,
hold on, hold on, hold on,

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because you're moving so quick, I
need to go back here for a

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second. I love this that he's
got this. He's gonna go bang banging,

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and I'm gonna let him do it. But let's just rewind a little

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bit. Okay, before the crisis
happened, I recall this again. I

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was an adult at the time,
too. Uh. You know, all

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of a sudden, you could get
no documentation loans right where you didn't even

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require because, like you said,
they used to care you could pay this

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stuff back. Now, again,
this is not actually your business. Really,

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it's connected to your business, right, So you're not somebody who's out

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there giving mortgages, I mean online. There were people that you never even

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had to meet with or even share
a space with, that we're turning around

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offering you loans through like websites and
all this stuff in like two thousand and

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two thousand and one, two thousand
and two, and all of a sudden,

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buying power got expanded for a whole
lot of people who maybe didn't really

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have that much to show as far
as income and things like this. This

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was a weird phenomena that to my
mind, was brand new in say two

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thousand and two thousand and one,
in that time period, right, so

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this goes on for about five years. Now, I'm not saying that you

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had anything to do with that,
because clearly you're talking about, Look,

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we figured out a way to buy
houses and sell them and make a profit

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off. So what we're doing is
you know, we're getting you know,

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clearly you're not one of these people. It was like let me flip a

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house. Flip a house, flip
a house. But you're engaged in that

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where you know, maybe you're not
to fix it up and flip it people,

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but you're engaged in that business so
that you can make a living just

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kind of moving. Okay, I'll
find some underappreciated real estate, get it

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in the hands of somebody who wants
to take it and make an investment.

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And that was really like your business, right along with your high school sweethearts

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taking pictures, which was a very
important element. I mean, obviously,

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when you take a look at a
listing, you want to look at a

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house, you don't go to every
single house right off the bat. In

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those days, you might have gotten
a piece of paper. Nowadays, maybe

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you look on websites you see the
pictures. Okay, all of this makes

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sense, but clearly you got Did
you get in before that time period when

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like all of a sudden, these
no dock loans and things were available or

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was this right when you were getting
into the business. We've been into business

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for years before these what it was
called a nina loan or no income no

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asset loan or a ninja no income, no job, no asset loan.

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We had nothing to do with these
loan products, and customers were getting like

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you said, go online, get
approved. They'd walk into our office and

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they'd be approved. Hey, I'm
preapproved. I want to buy a house,

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I don't want to rent anymore,
or I want to buy a rental

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property. And as let me just
give everyone a news flash. If you

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call a real estate agent and you're
preapproved and say you want to buy a

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house, I mean we're on commission, right, We're gonna sell you out.

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We're gonna get you to the car. Let's go and find a property.

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So that's what we were doing,
connecting buyers and sellers. And yes,

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basically what these banks did was they
decided to sell these loans off and

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everyone thought the houses we're going to
continue to go up in value. So

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it didn't really matter how much money
someone had, if they couldn't make the

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payment, they'll just sell the house
and pay off the loan. I mean,

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this was what the banks had decided. And this is how the industry

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changed. And we were one of
zillions of real estate companies that were you

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have to do business in the environment
that we're in, and customers want it

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to buy properties not rent and more
or they wanted to buy rental properties,

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and so as a realtor, we
sold people who were qualified. We had

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nothing to do with the bank approvals
or people's taste stubs or any best stuff.

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We had nothing to do with that. Yet the government blamed me and

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said that I secretly owned mortgage companies
and was involved in financing and with guns.

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They came to our office looking for
mortgage files, which we don't have,

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because all you would have is,
look, I've been approved by this

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bank, this organization, whatever,
and therefore I can pay for a property.

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Now find me a property. Your
job was just let me connect you,

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since you have the funds or the
loan or whatever. Ready, I'm

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just connecting you to the thing you
want to buy. That's it. How

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are you involved in the mortgage process
at all in anybody's mind, because I

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would think that, again, no
offense. You're not a rarity, okay,

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especially in Florida. And I don't
know what the real estate markets were

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like in Ohio, but I know
that real estate is a constant booming business

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in Florida. Sure, okay,
so you're not You're not rare or unique,

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But what the hell why Are you
suddenly the guy to pin the mortgages

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on when that's not your business,
that's not your shingle, that's that has

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nothing to do with you as a
real estate guy. You're just there to

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say, look, if you have
the funds or you have the loan,

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I'll help you find what it is
you want. I mean, that's really

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your job basically, right right,
And prosecutors later it's got named Mark Bennett

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and the Southern guy, Danka Saris. They said that I was we were

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selling houses to unsophisticated buyers. But
in real estate there's no such thing as

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a quote unsophisticated buyer. I imagine
if you came into my office and you

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were preapproved and I said, man, Chuck, you seemed like an idiot.

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I'm not going to sell you a
hou. I mean, it's ridiculous.

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Nobody would say that you can discriminate
against somebody for one reason if they

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can't afford something. If you're approved
to buy a two hundred thousand dollars house

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and you want me to show you
a million dollar house, I can say,

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sorry, you're not approved. I'm
not going to do that. Period.

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That's it. Otherwise you have no
it's fair housing laws. You you

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sell the customers what they want,
where they want, and you show them

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things. And that's what we did. And we had a real estate attorney,

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we had compliance, we used the
forms from the realtor association. Yet

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the government later claimed that I was
doing all these nefarious transactions with these scandalous

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forms and contracts that were fraudulent.
Let me just let me just get the

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labor herds out that an infiment.
Well, hang on, let me just

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beliebor this point per a moment,
because actually, if you would have discriminated

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against somebody because they are indeed an
idiot, and I'm sure you encountered idiots

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if they were an idiot, and
you had discriminated against him for this reason

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and that was it. If they
were financially capable and you said, look,

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I'm not going to sell this guy
house because clearly he's too stupid to

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know what he's doing, you actually
would have been in violation of various laws.

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You would have been even if you
knew, yes, there's idiots,

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but yes we have to sell idiots
who are qualified to buy house house right

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as real estate agents. I'm gonna
be like Walmart's telling you you can't buy

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this tube of toothpaste. Wait a
minute, I have the money now now,

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I mean, realtors serve the public. Okay. We people come into

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our office. We don't know them. Necessarily we may, but we oftentimes

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don't. And it's our job to
find out what they want, what neighborhoods

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they want to live in, how
many bedrooms they need. I mean,

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this is what realtors do, and
we go and show them a house.

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Trust me when I tell you I've
went to jail for ten years. I

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never thought for one second that engaging
in real estate sales, which we were

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licensed by the state of Ohio and
audited by the way every year by the

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Division of Real Estate, I never
thought that this was a pathway to going

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to jail. But Mark Bennett told
the judge in one of our hearings,

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the prosecutor that when you see Tony
Viola at a Starbucks with his briefcase,

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that's not breakfast, that's a crime
scene. I mean, this is what

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they were saying. And they said
that I sold forty six million dollars and

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crashed the economy. And I'm thinking, my god, we're this little real

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estate company with a coffee pot and
chairs and tables, and you mean to

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tell me that that my business crashed
the economy. It was absolutely ridiculous.

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We found out later that an informant
said Tony was at the office when I

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was making false statements on my mortgages. But there's more than one guy named

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Tony. And apparently this informant who
ended up in a romantic relationship with the

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prosecutor Dean Gassaris, she thought that
I was a different guy, a different

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Tony who was involved in a mortgage
business. But I'm Tony Viola. And

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the government never really took the step
of the checking tax returns and seeing and

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they just rated our office and indicted
me in both state and federal courts,

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saying I was doing these dummy mortgages
even though we never did mortgages. And

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the FBI and the police were running
around our office with guns telling everybody that

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if we didn't give them the mortgage
files, we were going to be charged

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with obstruction of justice. But there
were no mortgage files because we're realtors.

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That's how this whole mess started.
And talking about confidence in the legal prosecutors

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are not willing to admit a mistake
and they're not, but they locked themselves

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into this false narrative. So all
this misconduct and all the shenanigans that happened

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later then the government playing games with
evidence resulted from a half assed initial investigation.

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Or I didn't even know what businesses
I owned, and went on national

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television and said that I sold forty
six million dollars from mortgage companies. My

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employees were shocked. We're like,
this is crazy. We don't do mortgages,

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we don't have mortgage files. But
that's how the case started. Yeah,

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see, how do you steal money
from mortgage companies if you don't really

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actually deal directly with mortgage companies.
Also, you know another question I don't

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know the answer to. Okay,
by the way. By the way,

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Also, I sold forty six million
dollars and there was no bond. They

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said, here, signed here,
and you can go. I said,

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are you serious? And so I
told the reporters that were standing outside that

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this is a joke. I sold
forty six million dollars and just signed here

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and go home and we'll call it
a day. The government didn't even try

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to shut my real estate business down, but they issued press releases. They're

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all my web site. You can
check it out. That say that that

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I sold forty six million dollars in
the nation's largest mortgage fraudcase. I never

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did a mortgage in my life,
and I never got money from these companies.

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In these indictments, they said that
I got money from a company called

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00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:17.640
Family Title, which was not true, and that I owned this company called

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transcottin on a lending, which was
not true. So how does the government.

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How's the United States of America?
The FBI supposed to know the answer

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to every question before they ask it, the greatest law enforcement agency in the

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world. They can't figure out what
business Tony Viola and Cleveland, Ohio owns.

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This crazy well, you see,
there's my next question, all right,

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because is it possible? I mean, you got more than one Tony

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duh? How many guys named Anthony
have you run into in your lives?

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I asked you the listener. A
lot. Okay, there's a lot of

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guys that you could call Tony.
All right, fine, let me just

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ask you a couple of off the
b questions. You're real fast, and

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one of them is because you have
a valid the end of your name,

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right, so do I? So
I feel comfortable asking this question, is

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it possible that they really wanted to
hang sort of a criminal conspiracy against you,

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because quite frankly, there's a lot
of people who vows at the end

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of their names at a certain point
there that might have been involved in a

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lot of white collar crime. And
maybe they were going with this supposition that

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you were one of these kind of
guys because they had you mixed up with

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yet again another Tony somehow. Who
Look, I'm not even saying that theoretically

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there isn't a guy named Tony out
there that is involved in real estate fraud

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or or or a mortgage fraud guaranteed. Actually there's probably a guy named Tony

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out there, but not Tony Viola
you in particular. Okay, But I'm

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saying that I would not be shocked
if there were many guys named Tony that

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might have been involved in a mortgage
fraud. Okay, But but um,

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you know, what are your thoughts
there that maybe they kind of made sort

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of an ethnic judgment on you,
thinking maybe you're Italian or Sicilian, and

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possibly that's the thing. Maybe you
didn't crash with everybody else because well,

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you were still selling real estate.
Whether it's updown or whatever. You get

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to make a commission. So you
were still making a living and you weren't

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suffering, and maybe they thought,
well, this is like you know an

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00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.920
Italians, Jews, daan or something. What do you think is that possible?

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The answer is yes. They they
They absolutely called me Tony Soprano.

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They called me the pod Father.
I was in jail and the pod in

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00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.319
the county jail, and they called
me the pod Father. There was plenty

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00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:36.759
of anti Italian bigotry, no question
about it. There was also a lot

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00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:40.960
of jealousy lesson. These prosecutors were
shocked that people were supporting me. After

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they rated my company, and the
employees kept telling these Mark Bennett. They

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would go to the US attorney.
They would say, look, this is

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guy's an honest business guy. I
wouldn't work here if he was no good

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I had. We had a lot
of employees, and so they also the

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00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.440
same thing. They said, I
have kids, if the guy was ripping

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people off, I wouldn't put my
reputation on the line. I had a

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00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.319
couple full of ex political figures that
had been elected the public office that had

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00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.559
these, you know, good reputations, and they all said look, I

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wouldn't work for somebody if they were
doing something shady. So the answer is,

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yes, there's some anti Italian in
this whole thing. I agree.

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00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.559
A lot of people have said that. I've heard comments made by the prosecutors.

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They've also made racist comments. One
thing about Mark Bennett and Danca Saras,

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00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.759
the federal state prosecutor. These guys
put all kinds of crazy stuff in

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00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.720
writing. They never thought anyone would
ever see their emails, and whistleblower gave

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00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.279
us a lot of stuff. Lady
named Don Pasella, and then records production

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00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.119
caused more. But these guys put
some crazy stuff in writing about this,

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and they do make comments about Jews
and Italians and Africans. I mean,

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00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.960
they do say some pretty crazy stuff
in writing. Mark Bennett admitted that one

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00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.160
of his witnesses lied, which the
government's not allowed to use false testimony to

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imprison people. So there's this sort
of arrogance of like Mark Bennett and Danka

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00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.960
Saras and the invincibility of prosecutors.
We can do what we want. We're

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00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.440
on the side of good. You
must be some kind of crook. But

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the government really doesn't understand business,
and they really didn't understand the difference between

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a loan officer and a real estate
agent. I mean they really didn't looking

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before we documents in a real estate
office. It's ridiculous that they couldn't figure

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this out right now before we go
there and the nuts and bolts of why

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00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.519
this doesn't work as a as a
prosecutorial you know, situation where it starts

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00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.279
to make sense because I can't make
sense of how it is. They came

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00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.599
up with these ideas maybe you,
maybe you'll tell me how it worked.

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But before we go there, I
got this other idea in my mind,

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and that is that a real estate
guy. Now I've been I've worked with

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00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:37.160
real estate people in different businesses and
things. They're usually involved in the community

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to some degree because they wind up
buying advertising, so they work with other

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businesses. You wind up hiring other
people and actually hiring other businesses to come

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in because real estate people, you
might need let's just say, cleaning crews,

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00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:55.799
so you might hire house cleaners,
you might hire signmakers, you might

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hire printing companies. There's a lot
of ways that you could be worked within

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00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.160
the community. So there's other business
owners within the community who also know you,

333
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.920
who are also dealing with you just
out of you know, proximity,

334
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.519
because you need them and they need
you. What about that? Did they

335
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.039
try and pull in any of those
people, like, do you realize you're

336
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.680
working for this master criminal here?
Can you tell us anything about his criminal

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00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:23.640
activities? You would figure that known
associates right in business, they would pull

338
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:27.200
you in. I mean even when
a mob guy owns a bar, they'll

339
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.640
pull in the bartenders. They'll pull
in the guy delivering the beer and they'll

340
00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.960
ask him, did you see anything? Do you know anything? They do

341
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.000
that a lot. Did they do
that with these other business people that you,

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00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.039
you know, by depault would have
had to have been working with in

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Ohio and Florida? The answer is
yes. They threatened people the FBI,

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00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.440
a guy named Brian Stark. They
said, look, if you continue to

345
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.559
support Tony and do business with this
guy, we're gonna raid your office.

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00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.000
I gotta give a lot of people
in my organization a heck of a lot

347
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.960
of credit. There's a lady named
Sarah Swartz. They threatened to take her

348
00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:02.359
kids. I mean, it's it's
crazy because they were desperate to not lose

349
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.279
this case. And they did go
to people and they all told him essentially

350
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:10.519
the same thing, which is,
this guy's a nerd. He's not some

351
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.279
mobster, he doesn't do mortgages,
he's not a crook. He's an honest

352
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.720
business guy. We've done business with
him for many years, and we also

353
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:21.960
did property management. We were collecting
tens of thousands of dollars or hundreds of

354
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.160
thousands of dollars for buildings, and
we had online banking, and all of

355
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.279
our customers said, look, the
guy has never cheated us. We you

356
00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:32.799
know, this is crazy. But
so what happened. This is why the

357
00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:37.440
government used false testimony. This is
why this lady Catherine Clover ended up lying

358
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.960
in the first trial, and at
my second trial she recanted. So the

359
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.200
answer is these banks were willingly making
these zany loans. There is no mortgage

360
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:49.119
fraud in these cases. And when
the government has a bad case, that's

361
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:53.000
when they commit misconduct. They don't
commit misconduct when someone pleads guilty, or

362
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.440
if there's video of some guy going
in and shooting somebody or something like that.

363
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.640
This case was started out a slap
dash affair. They didn't have the

364
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.200
basic facts. They locked themselves into
a false narrative, and then they were

365
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:10.119
scrambling around trying to backfill the evidence
that they needed, and again a whistleblower

366
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.759
ends up finding out that they're shifting
evidence around their hiding records, right,

367
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:22.599
And this is totally strange because again, how they're doing this, I might

368
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.440
have just there you go, and
so your your call just dropped for a

369
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.880
second there, So we didn't hear
that part. But I was just saying

370
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.480
that, let me, let me
just roll back into it. The thing

371
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.480
is, you've got all this,
this track record as a business operator and

372
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.200
everything else. How it is they're
going after you still? I mean,

373
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.559
was there any indication at a certain
point that they could have said or seemed

374
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.240
like they were about to say,
look, we made a mistake. If

375
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.359
they might have come in at some
point here before throwing you in prison,

376
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.799
before you know, rating your businesses
and everything else, I mean, if

377
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:56.960
somebody would have come in and said, look, we were working under a

378
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.279
false pretense here or we made a
mistake or something like that, I don't

379
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.920
think it would have been that big
a deal if they were going after the

380
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.240
people that were really responsible, because
again, I think a lot of people

381
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.079
felt the pain from this, and
somebody needed to be held responsible. But

382
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.920
if they would have said, look, we looked into this guy and he's

383
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.400
not the responsible party. We need
to keep going, I think that would

384
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.599
have been acceptable. But see,
prosecutors don't always do that. They will

385
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.720
stay locked in. I mean,
I've even brought up stuff on this show

386
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.000
where they'll go after two different people, two entirely separate people, and basically

387
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.559
claim that they committed the same crime, and they'll hold you know, but

388
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:38.680
your case is even weirder because there's
no reason to think that you're owning a

389
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:44.160
mortgage company. Did they ever give
you even a remotely plausible reason as to

390
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.400
why they would think that you were
controlling or running I mean, did they

391
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.559
say that somehow, you know,
created a shell company that owned a bunch

392
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.720
of companies, or I mean,
did they ever give a reasonable kind of

393
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.960
explanation as to how you could have
been operating legit business over here and then

394
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.759
supposedly, you know, unfairly.
I mean, if you were running a

395
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.160
mortgage company and working with your own
real estate company, it would have been

396
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.200
a bit of a conflict of interest. I think it's not permitted in Ohio.

397
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:15.799
You can't you can't do both at
the same time. But so but

398
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.440
the answer is in law enforcement.
It's fascinating because, I mean, these

399
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.720
guys are unbelievable. The lack of
evidence convinced them that I was guilty.

400
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.039
So the more they couldn't find mortgage
documents, the more they were like,

401
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.599
this slick, tony guy hid.
He took great steps to insulate himself,

402
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.640
so the lack of evidence became,
oh, that's the tip off that he's

403
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.799
guilty. So that's crazy that these
police and prosecutors are so locked in that

404
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.480
they won't consider anything outside. But
part of it was they uncorked a media

405
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.720
circus. If I got into a
fight at a bar and it really wasn't

406
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.279
me, it was somebody else,
they might have dropped the case maybe,

407
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.599
But in my case because they did
this live breaking news raid and press conferences

408
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.440
and Mark Bennett got an award for
prosecuting me. I mean, all of

409
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.440
these media circus that they created.
I mean, that was the joke.

410
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.079
The most dangerous place in America was
between a TV camera and this guy,

411
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:08.200
Dan Cassaris. I mean I saw
him in court almost run over an elderly

412
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:12.920
woman in a wheelchair because one of
the local TV stations was getting the camera

413
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.599
going, so these prosecutors basked in
the publicity early on, and the public

414
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.920
ld that someone was being held responsible. So I think they there was no

415
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.440
way. It was so high profile
that there was no way they were going

416
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:26.720
to say, oh, we made
a mistake. They just don't do it.

417
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.680
So they would rather imprison innocent people, hide evidence, and then commit

418
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.160
crimes themselves, which has included the
destruction of these computers. Earlier, I

419
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.400
was trying to make a point about
the computers. The first thing a defense

420
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.359
lawyer would say is, Okay,
well, we don't think Tony owns these

421
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.519
companies. He never got a cent. Okay, us attorney, give us

422
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.400
the computers from these mortgage companies,
so we can have a forensic accountant to

423
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:53.440
go through and identify how many mortgages
Tony submitted and how many dollars Tony got,

424
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:56.039
and the answer would be zero.
But then the government claimed that they

425
00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:00.759
quote lost the computers that they seized
by the way to televised race. They

426
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.319
rated a bunch of companies on the
same day, and they seized the computers

427
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:10.160
and then supposedly lost the computers.
The whistle blower later came forward and said

428
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.319
that they destroyed the computers, because
if they turned them over to us,

429
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.480
they would have lost the case immediately. See now, look even if the

430
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:19.960
guardrails are off here regarding the prosecutors, right, and they're just ambitious and

431
00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:25.640
going after this because it's a media
event and they can raise their own capital,

432
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.640
their own cachet, so to speak, as prosecutors as lawyers. Now

433
00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:33.400
they're the famous lawyer who took down
the guy who was responsible for the domino

434
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.880
effect that affected the whole nation.
Okay, I get it, But somebody

435
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.400
would say, at some point,
doesn't a judge have to step in here

436
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.519
and go, look, where's your
evidence? Boys? I mean, isn't

437
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:47.480
that part of the normal situation here? A lot of times, right,

438
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:51.319
prosecutors try to bring cases and somebody
looks at it and goes, well,

439
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.519
first of all, your key witnesses
a liar. Second of all, you're

440
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.480
telling me you got evidence and you
don't show it to me, And a

441
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.519
lot of judges will toss this stuff. Welcome that didn't happen in your case?

442
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.480
Do you know? Yes? Well, first of all, the case

443
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.079
was unwinnable the first trial. We
lost the first trial for two reasons.

444
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.319
One, we couldn't properly cross examine
the banks. The banks came in and

445
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.359
said, we don't allow people to
get no money down loans. Now,

446
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.559
if you want to disprove that or
cross examine them, you have to have

447
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.640
contemporaneous documents from when these transactions were
actually submitted. So the best defense,

448
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.279
which Dawn Posello, the whistleblower,
identified later, was to say, look

449
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.319
it, it doesn't matter who owns
the mortgage company. There was no fraud.

450
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.799
The buyer says they have no money, okay, Number one. The

451
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:41.319
buyer says they're not putting a down
payment down the closing instructions when this deal

452
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.079
was approved by your bank says there's
no down payment, And the title company

453
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.039
closed the deal with no tim payment
and gave them money back because you said

454
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.559
so, so why am I supposed
to go to jail? But without documents,

455
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:55.599
government witnesses and banks could tell whatever
story they want. So the bank

456
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.599
said, well, we don't usually
allow that, and we'd like to see

457
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.839
people make down payments. The jury
said, well there must be fraud somewhere.

458
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.319
Well, this Tony guys seems in
the middle, maybe he's guilty.

459
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.119
So the government painted with a very
broad brush and we couldn't win because they

460
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.079
hid the documents. At the second
trial, when the bank says, ah,

461
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.640
shucks, we don't allow these loans, I was able to say,

462
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.039
wait a minute, on page eighty
seven over here of your program book,

463
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.359
you offer a no money down,
cash back loan. Is that true or

464
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:22.039
not, Well, we don't do
it that often. It doesn't matter you

465
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.799
offered it. So I was able
to disprove the government's theory, which is

466
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.640
the bank as an innocent victim.
Now, in America, we have very

467
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.640
wide ranging conspiracy laws, so supposedly
you don't even have to know what you're

468
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.279
doing is wrong. So a prosecutor, if they were on the show,

469
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:38.920
they would say, well, you
know, Tony might have been involved in

470
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.920
some way, whether or not he
owned the company, he might have known

471
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.960
something. So that, by the
way, that would be the prosecutor's answer.

472
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.799
But the answer is you win a
case like this with documents, not

473
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:55.200
witness testimony. Witness testimony might be
suitable if there was a fight or somebody

474
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:59.039
got shot. This is a real
estate transaction, So the question is whether

475
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:02.559
or not we submit it in a
transparent way and the bank, in their

476
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.920
own wisdom, accepted it or rejected
it. By the way, these are

477
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.599
the largest banks in the country.
Poor innocent JP Morgan, Chase. Listen,

478
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:11.079
if they don't want to do the
City group, if they don't want

479
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:14.240
to do the loan, they can
turn the loan down. They turned plenty

480
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.160
of loans down. Incidentally, the
craziest thing about my case is the government,

481
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.319
on the exact same transactions, claimed
that the banks were duped, that

482
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.480
I tricked them into making these no
money down loans, and that I had

483
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.599
to go to jail and they lost
millions of dollars. And on the same

484
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:36.319
transactions, the government said that the
banks were knowingly making crazy loans and they

485
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:40.680
made these banks paid billions of dollars
in settlements. JP Morgan paid a thirteen

486
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.920
billion dollar settlement and said, oh
yeah, sorry, we made a bunch

487
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:47.759
of crazy loans. So the government
was pursuing, just like your example earlier,

488
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:52.680
Chuck, they were pursuing two mutually
exclusive theories of criminality. At the

489
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.200
same time. The bank is an
innocent victim duped by us and then making

490
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.079
the loans. Oh no, what, Actually the banks a criminal. They

491
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.039
were making crazy loans and lying about
it, and so the bank has to

492
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.200
pay back the people that lost money
who bought the loans later. So it's

493
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.640
how can you defend yourself? What's
wrong with this country where they putting me

494
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:13.519
on trial and I can't even defend
myself. They supposedly lost the computers,

495
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:16.559
they don't have the documents. Well, the lady inside the prosecutor's office,

496
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.440
John Pacello, witnessed this and thought
it was just a little bit ridiculous that

497
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.680
they were playing this many games with
the evidence, and she started taking it

498
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.799
home and gave it to me later, which is why I was convicted and

499
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:32.720
then later exonerated on the exact same
charges because I had the documents. Well,

500
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:36.599
how long did this take? I
mean, bring us into that part

501
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:38.119
of the story, because you got
one trial, two trials, then you

502
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.599
got an exoneration. I mean,
what are we talking about time wise here?

503
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.000
I mean when did this whole circus
start exactly? I mean, the

504
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.799
answer is, if it's not quite
over, because my initial conviction has not

505
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.400
been vacated. The answer is,
my company was rated in two thousand and

506
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.640
eight, okay, and then I
was put on the first trial in twenty

507
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:59.200
eleven, and then I was I
lost and I was imprisoned. I was

508
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.720
in jail for ten years that I
had an ankle monitor for a little bit.

509
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:06.799
The second trial was while I was
in prison, and I won,

510
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.880
so I proved my innocence, but
still they wouldn't let me out of jail.

511
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:15.680
It took ten years of legal wrangling. Finally the FBI said this is

512
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:17.039
crazy, by the way, and
it's on my website so you can read

513
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:22.599
their version of this. The FBI
claimed that they were unaware of their own

514
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.519
records in their own record system,
and then they blamed this guy Mark Bennett

515
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:30.880
for making false statements about evidence.
Then I was finally released from federal prison

516
00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:34.400
on an ankle monitor, subject to
further proceedings. And then they took the

517
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:37.720
ankle monitor off. But now they're
not agreeing to vacate my initial conviction.

518
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:42.920
So I was acquitted on the same
charges by the same task force at a

519
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:47.400
subsequent trial in state court, but
my original federal conviction was not vacated and

520
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:52.599
still hasn't been. So this is
the craziest thing. I was the only

521
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:58.400
prisoner in America in jail. I
proved my innocence at a trial, and

522
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:01.799
I had the proof of my innocence
in my locker and the judge in my

523
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:06.759
federal case, Don Nugent, would
not allow me to have a hearing to

524
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.559
present the same proof of innocence that
I used at the second trial. So

525
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.119
the government played games with this Federal
State Task Force and said, oh,

526
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.960
it doesn't really matter what you put
me on trial a second time if it

527
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.320
doesn't matter, and there's all this
legal wrangling. The government, the FBI,

528
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:28.719
the Justice Department will say or do
anything. They will say or do

529
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.000
anything to win a case number one
and number two, to keep a conviction.

530
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.519
They will say or do anything.
It is a disgrace. But during

531
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:40.000
the course of the last decade,
the things that we've on earth is nuts.

532
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:45.719
I mean, the fact that the
prosecutors knew the witness was lying and

533
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:51.000
they refused to withdraw this lady's false
testimony because they said it jeopardize the outcome

534
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.719
of the case, meaning its material. It's crazy. That means they had

535
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:59.239
to use her false testimony to imprison
me. So you know, the judges

536
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:05.480
are all former prosecutors and they don't
really supervise. There the reason these prosecutors,

537
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.119
the reason the Justice Department wins ninety
nine percent of their cases, is

538
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:13.239
the prosecutors feel invincible. They're all
buddies. They work in the same building,

539
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.400
you know, they go to lunch
together, and they they really have

540
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.519
not followed the law in America.
In my case, They're not allowed these

541
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.079
perjured testimony, yet they did.
They're not allowed to hide evidence, yet

542
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:28.960
they did. And yet the prosecutors
themselves haven't really suffered the consequences of their

543
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.480
misconduct. And meanwhile, remember this
too, Chuck, My case is not

544
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.880
some one off wrongful conviction. If
I'm innocent, probably most or all of

545
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.400
the people this task force went after
are innocent, which is twelve hundred people,

546
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:49.960
twelve hundred people prosecuted realtors, you
know, title agents, people buying

547
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:53.840
and selling houses by this joint federal
state task force on the same charges.

548
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:58.760
My indictment is like a copy and
paste of everybody's indictment, the banks and

549
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:02.280
innocent victim. Mark Bennet's appalled.
He's gonna prosecute everybody. I mean,

550
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.920
if I'm innocent, if I didn't
trick JP Morgan or these banks into making

551
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:13.079
no money down loans because they knowingly
made them, then everyone's probably innocent.

552
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.000
So it's it's a crazy story,
and so maybe we can get all these

553
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:19.920
cases reopened. We're trying right now. We have a great lawyer here in

554
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:22.519
Cleveland, Kim Corrall, who's working
really hard to get all these cases reopened.

555
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:28.039
And Yale Law School has taken my
case as well, so we have

556
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.440
some big dogs really fighting for us
to hopefully we can get some justice.

557
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.840
Well, it would be nice if
they could look, if they could make

558
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:37.559
sense of it. Okay, if
they could say that, you know,

559
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:39.679
you were a guy who rigged these
things, all right, and I'm gonna

560
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.679
be blunt with you, if they
could say, you were a guy who

561
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:47.199
rigged these things and you caused a
massive sinkhole in Ohio. Okay, Basically,

562
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:52.920
there's a massive financial sinkhole in Ohio
that you're responsible for because you were

563
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.039
duping the you know, the poor
idiots buying houses, and you were duping

564
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:00.199
the trusting bankers. If you were
in fact doing that, I would say,

565
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.159
you know what, I don't really
care do you got to sit for

566
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:07.239
ten years because you've probably ruined a
lot of lives. Right, But here's

567
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.920
the problem, this did ruin a
lot of lives. I don't see how

568
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.119
you're responsible for it is my you
know, like somebody has to make that

569
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.559
case, and they don't make that
case. They took ten years of your

570
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:22.920
life. Anyway, it's a very
weird thing that they at first are releasing

571
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.559
you on your own recognizance. I
mean, look, white white, white

572
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.039
collar crime sometimes goes this way,
right, where a lot of guys doesn't

573
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.519
matter how much damage they do,
they haven't paid a fine, you know.

574
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:37.960
I mean, I can think immediately
of the Sackler family and how they've

575
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:44.039
avoided any personal responsibility. But you
know what, our company is guilty,

576
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.400
but we're not, even though we're
the ones running the company. I love

577
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:52.719
that. So there's all sorts of
uneven results here. Okay, yeah,

578
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:54.599
let me just jump into two quick
points to that. I agree with what

579
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.039
you just said. Two things.
One, if I actually stole forty six

580
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.119
million dollars from J Morgan Chase,
trust me, they would have filed a

581
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:06.239
lawsuit or at least stopped doing business
with me. In other words, that

582
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.199
if you missed your car payment,
or you've missed your credit card payment and

583
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:13.159
you owe one hundred and eighty dollars
or whatever, five hundred, they're gonna

584
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:15.599
call you. So the notion that
I stilled forty six million dollars from these

585
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.800
banks and they didn't do anything.
Just shows you that the whole case is

586
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.960
nonsense. But the other thing is
this, there is a responsible party for

587
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:27.960
this, and it's the bankers because
they were they were selling off loans on

588
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.880
Wall Street and misrepresenting what they were. But the government wasn't honest with the

589
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.719
public. What the what the what
the government should have done? But they

590
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.440
never out They never do the right
thing. Ever, they can be forced

591
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.440
to do the right thing, but
on their own, the government never does

592
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:42.480
the right thing. So what they
should have done was just been honest with

593
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:45.719
people and said, look, if
we start prosecuting banks, we're going to

594
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.760
put banks out of business. Your
ATM card's not going to work, the

595
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.199
economy is going to be worse,
your retirement savings are going to evaporate.

596
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.719
It's not helpful. Small businesses won't
be able to borrow money and get loans.

597
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.159
But they weren't honest, so then
they blamed realtors for for problems that

598
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:07.239
banks or misconduct committed by banks.
So there was a responsible party, which

599
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.440
was the lenders, and the government
was not honest with the public, and

600
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:15.239
they had all these press conferences saying
that I stoled all these millions of dollars

601
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.800
and that we somehow engineered these foreclosures. Well, as a real estate agent,

602
00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:22.719
the last thing I want is somebody
to buy a property and going foreclosure.

603
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.960
Our whole business is referrals people doing
well. I mean, think of

604
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.000
it, Chuck. If you bought
a rental house from our company, okay,

605
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:34.039
and you're doing well and you're making
money and everything's great, guess what,

606
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.519
you're going to probably buy another one, and you're going to tell people,

607
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:38.519
Hey, Tony's company's pretty good.
They helped me manage the property.

608
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:44.599
They found me a good deal.
So the last thing a real estate agent

609
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.440
would want is anybody to acquire a
property and then not be happy about it.

610
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:52.239
So the idea that we were secretly
wanting people not to make their payments

611
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:53.760
or something, it's nonsense. I
mean, it's just not the way business

612
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:58.559
works. But the government should have
said we're not going to prosecute banks and

613
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:01.360
here's why. Or execute them if
you want. But the idea of prosecuting

614
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:07.119
non responsible parties and putting innocent people
in jail is Unamerican. It's unconstitutional,

615
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:13.000
it's wrong. It's also destroying confidence
the public's confidence in the fair administration of

616
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.559
justice. Nobody believes the government anymore
when they say somebody did something, because

617
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:22.239
it's been proven over and over again
that they they commit misconduct in cases to

618
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.840
win. This idea of win at
all costs. You know, we're prosecutors.

619
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:29.320
We're on the side of good,
we're on the side of God.

620
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.039
These guys are bad, and because
they're bad, we're gonna win. We're

621
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:37.079
gonna take extreme measures to win.
I mean, and if you have a

622
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:39.199
sec I'd like to talk about some
of the crazy things that these people did

623
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:44.320
to quote win the first trial.
Yeah, I want I want to know

624
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:49.440
that, because again, look all
I'm seeing here is again I'm shocked at

625
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.960
the twelve I was not aware of. Twelve hundred people were probably brought down

626
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:58.360
under this very same issue. And
that's just in the Ohio, that's in

627
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:01.480
Greater Cleveland. Yes, the Iyahagac
County Mortgage Fraud Task Force, which was

628
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:05.920
an amalgamation of federal, state,
and local officials. And let me tell

629
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.119
you something, these law enforcement people
could not get enough of this case to

630
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:14.360
sit in an air conditioned office all
day and interview realtors. And they interviewed

631
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.840
my secretary fourteen times. I mean, this was the this was their dream.

632
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.199
I mean, they weren't exactly afraid
of getting shot. Okay. So

633
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:25.440
this was the the dream of these
law enforcement people to do this case.

634
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.199
And they loved it. They they
loved these mortgage cases. They brought people

635
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.679
in and they're asking them fifty questions
about houses. And by the way,

636
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:38.000
again, the documents are key because
these indictments were five or six years after

637
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:43.880
these transactions. Who remembers what page
papers you signed five years later? What

638
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.679
just say on page eighty nine?
So this was the way. The reason

639
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:51.480
we won the second trial was the
actual documents themselves. Yeah. And what's

640
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.639
crazy is look another thing that you
brought up and I want you to go

641
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.840
back over it just real fast.
Is that quite frankly? Okay? I

642
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:02.880
remember you remember the pizza connection deal
with the guys who got busted because they

643
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.800
had, like Heroin running operations out
of all these pizza places in the Northeast,

644
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.960
right. Okay. So one of
the first things that they did when

645
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:16.039
they discovered that and took it down
is they shut down all those businesses,

646
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:22.159
right because they were involved in doing
something deceptive. They had a front business

647
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:24.119
and you know, this is what
I'm imagining. Was the idea with you

648
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:28.920
is that you have a front business, but your real business is this,

649
00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:31.679
you know, mortgage fraud. Right, this is the the concept. This

650
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:36.800
is the idea that they have that
they're prosecuting under. Right, So this

651
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.480
is sort of the front business.
Now, usually what they do is they

652
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:43.440
take down the front business. Right, you said to me, they didn't

653
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.800
turn around, and you got to
be licensed, you got to have all

654
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.320
sorts of agreements with different state agencies. The state agencies didn't shut you down

655
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:54.559
even though you're supposed to have this
front company going while really your millions are

656
00:42:54.599 --> 00:43:00.719
being made through mortgage deceptions. So
how they that ridiculous? Because if I'm

657
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:06.440
a crook and I stole forty six
million dollars and I'm responsible for foreclosures,

658
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.119
why would you continue to let me
serve the public and sell a house.

659
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:13.639
The next day, my lawyer,
this guy named Jay Milano, who was

660
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.400
a total joke. He's like,
oh, yeah, just keep just keep

661
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.719
going. Everything's fine, Just sell
real estate. Just keep going. I

662
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.480
said, are you serious? Yeah, yeah, you can keep selling real

663
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.440
estate. So I mean, if
I was this threat, okay, and

664
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.920
stealing millions of dollars. I mean, how would you like it if I

665
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.159
would stole money from you after I
supposedly was already indicted. I mean,

666
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:35.039
they never even got a restraining order
to stop me from engaging in real estate

667
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:37.599
business. Yeah, and there was
no bond. I supposedly stole forty six

668
00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.920
million dollars. I could have had
a private plan and hopped. You know,

669
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.679
I'd love Cleveland, Ohio. It's
my hometown, but not exactly the

670
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:45.719
coolest place to stay in the winter
months, you know. So, I

671
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:51.400
mean, the whole case was ridiculous
because what they were saying was completely contradicted

672
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:53.840
by their own actions, which was
to let me continue to do real estate.

673
00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:57.840
But that's my point is that,
look, if you're gonna do that,

674
00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:00.280
even if the guy's got legit businesses
and he's in criminal activities, they'll

675
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:05.360
seize and stop that legit business.
Why didn't they do that in your case

676
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:07.760
if that's what they really think you're
doing. Because again, honestly, if

677
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:12.320
you were, if you were doing
something illegal and seizing all this money and

678
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.519
taking advantage of people, I would
say, well, first thing we got

679
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:19.360
to do is stop him from interacting
with people in this business world at all.

680
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.920
So I would think they would put
a stop on your real estate business

681
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.480
immediately, right. That's the role
of a prosecutor at the end of the

682
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:29.719
day. A prosecutor's job is to
protect the public, right, that's what

683
00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:31.880
they're doing. But they didn't do
that in this case. They didn't protect

684
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.719
anybody because they let us all continue
to do business. Right. So if

685
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.760
their theory of the case is that
through that business you are taking advantage of

686
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:43.599
the public, you're you're stealing from
banks, you're doing all that, then

687
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:45.880
I would say, well, it's
idiocy that you don't say, look,

688
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:51.639
your honor, we want you know
what do they call that an injunction against

689
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:54.760
this guy's business where he can't conduct
business now because he's using that business to

690
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:59.559
commit these crimes. So one would
say, look, even if you're again

691
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.400
these pizza shops with the pizza connection
thing, right, some of them,

692
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:06.280
Yeah, there were people working there
that were just making pizzas, that's true,

693
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:08.880
right, But they shut all that
down, they put it in receivership,

694
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:12.559
and they turned around. Even if
they let the business run, they

695
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.519
would take it out of the hands
of the guy running it and turn around

696
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.800
and put in you know, like
a state manager sort of like there are

697
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:21.480
people that come in. It's called
receivership. You know what I'm talking about.

698
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:24.000
Absolutely, It's done all the time, and it's done to protect the

699
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:28.920
public. The reason it's done is
to protect the public from further injury or

700
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:31.599
further harm. Right, But nobody
did that in your case, which makes

701
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:37.039
zero sense, correct, Okay,
just just double checking on that. Okay,

702
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:38.960
So by all means, continue on. We'll take another like say,

703
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.320
fifteen minutes going through this. I
want people to go to your website though,

704
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:45.760
I want them to read about the
case. I want them to learn

705
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:49.320
about it because it is still ongoing, and I want you to touch on

706
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:53.320
that before we're done, exactly what's
happening and how people could maybe get their

707
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:58.119
own voices after they learn about this
a little bit and find out about what

708
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.880
they could do for you, because
clearly, you know, again, with

709
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:06.519
the selective enforcement that we have in
this country, you are it's weird.

710
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:08.599
I'm usually not on the white collar
guy side. I gotta be honest with

711
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:12.920
you. Most times, when I
see white collar criminal, I think guilty

712
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.880
automatically because I'm a very street level
person and I know that there are people

713
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.639
in the white collar world that are
constantly screwing over the public and that's how

714
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.159
they make their livings. But a
guy who's just selling real estate, I

715
00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:29.159
don't know. It's just if that's
all you're doing and you're not. I

716
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:30.639
mean, if you were running a
mortgage company, or you were running a

717
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:34.480
fake mortgage company, I'd say,
you know what screwing you, You're part

718
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.800
of the problem. Go you know, and and I'd be on the side

719
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:40.360
of these guys hanging you out to
dry. But you're not. This is

720
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.440
not the guy who's doing this to
you. And meanwhile, you know,

721
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.679
are they blaming you for the whole
Domino effect? I mean, does does

722
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:51.719
do all roads lead to Cleveland here? I mean that's another thing, because

723
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:57.559
this was a nationwide issue, sod
our tiny real estate business in Cleveland,

724
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.599
which is as a joke. I
mean, do we affect that the national

725
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:04.280
economy at this level was preposterous?
But they did say a prosecutor named Nick

726
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:07.280
Geigrich, who's still active now in
Lorraine County, Ohio, he told the

727
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:12.119
jury at the second trial that if
your house went down in value or your

728
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.360
four oh one k went down in
value, it's this tony guy, right,

729
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:16.880
here, We've got the guy.
This is the guy who did it.

730
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.880
We've got the guy. It's ridiculous
because whether or not we existed or

731
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.559
not would have had no impact on
whether or not there was a financial crisis.

732
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:29.239
We just didn't have that large of
a macroeconomic impact. We went some

733
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:34.800
massive company engaging in all these you
know, like nationwide real estate transactions.

734
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.239
We're a bunch of realtors, you
know, drinking coffee with blueberry muffins in

735
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:43.400
the office. It was wildly out
of proportion to any effect that we had.

736
00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:46.800
And again, as realtors, we
don't affect the lending. We can't.

737
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:50.320
We have to operate in the market
the way it is, well,

738
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.199
the way it was. The banks
were making crazy loans of letting people buy

739
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:55.639
houses with no income and no assets. It wasn't my idea. But if

740
00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:59.519
people wanted to buy houses, yes
we sold them houses. But I want

741
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:02.679
to tell you, as this case
started falling apart, and as Mark Bennett

742
00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:07.920
and Dan Cassaras realized that they'd bid
off more than they can chew okay,

743
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:10.199
and that I was not going to
plead guilty. I was not and I'm

744
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:14.639
not saying I'm right, and I'm
not offering advice to anybody in your audience

745
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.360
who is listening, But I'm saying
I told these people to take this indictment

746
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:20.639
and stick it up there. You
know what, I'm like, You guys

747
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.840
don't know what businesses I own.
I don't do mortgages. I don't have

748
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:28.079
forty six million dollars. You are
destroying everything I worked for my entire life.

749
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.559
I have zero criminal history. I
wasn't in arguments with my customers,

750
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:36.559
we weren't didn't have banks suing us. So why they decided to do this

751
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.440
to me, I don't know.
But and Mark Bennett, they wouldn't even

752
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.760
meet with me. They said,
well, you're a target of the investigation.

753
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:44.679
We're not going to say we wanted
to. I wanted to bring my

754
00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:49.119
tax returns, and I wanted to
have my attorney and accountant go down to

755
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:51.719
the prosecutor. This is when I
thought court was fair. I was like,

756
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:52.920
well, maybe if I show them, you know what, they don't

757
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.280
want to hear it. They locked
themselves in. So these dudes, these

758
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:01.000
prosecutors, started engaging in epic misconduct, not just to me, but for

759
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.599
all these task Force cases. First
of all, think of a triangle.

760
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:08.199
There's federal and their state, and
there's this task force, and they're all

761
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:13.199
working together through this task force.
These guys were shifting evidence around, playing

762
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:17.679
games with where the evidence was hiding
records. The prosecutors are not supposed to

763
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:22.679
interview witnesses. Prosecutors are supposed to
present a case in court. FBI agents

764
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:27.719
or detectives are supposed to interview witnesses. But the prosecutors started getting nervous because

765
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:30.320
people kept telling them I was innocent. Well, yeah, this is also

766
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:35.880
why I'm sorry. This is also
why the position of investigator and a prosecutor's

767
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:39.079
office exists as well, in order
to have a separate person who is concerned

768
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:45.519
with that, not the prosecutor conducting
the interviews. One two. And that

769
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:50.400
you see that all over the cases
like that that case in South Carolina recently

770
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:53.559
where they had these different people who
were investigators or the prosecutors offices and people

771
00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:58.800
were asking about that. That's why
that position exists. First second, if

772
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:02.320
Mark Bennett wants come on and explain
this to me, I'll welcome it good

773
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.280
and I'll have you know, Tony
could listen to it too, or maybe

774
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:08.360
on him after this, and I'll
let him know that you've invited him on

775
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:12.920
the show. I think the prosecutors
should go on and explain their their behavior.

776
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.079
I would love to know the answer
to that. But here's another question,

777
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:19.000
just really fast, and then and
then I want you to go ahead

778
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:21.440
and tell us what we can do
about this and what we can learn about

779
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:25.840
it moving forward, because and this
is a weird question, so bear with

780
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:30.400
me a second. I would think
that if you've got fifty four million dollars,

781
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:35.239
right, that they have an amount
that they have in mind that you

782
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:39.320
have garnered in this illegal way.
Okay, So don't they have to demonstrate

783
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:44.079
that you made fifty four million dollars? I mean, don't they have to

784
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.360
show that. Look, we can
show through forensic accounting. They've always had

785
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:50.719
to say, even if it was, you know, drug transactions in cash,

786
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.840
they've always got to find some marker
to say, look, we can

787
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:58.360
prove that he took in hundreds of
thousands of dollars or millions of dollars or

788
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:00.360
ten thousand, whatever it is is, depending on the size. Right.

789
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.000
Again, you can tell them a
little more familiar with criminal law than I

790
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.079
am with this stuff. But yeah, but the point is that when you

791
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:14.360
make a claim that somebody made a
particular gain in a legal fashion, right,

792
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:19.400
you generally have to show here's the
game. So did they show or

793
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.760
did they attempt to show that you
had fifty four million dollars in the bank

794
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:25.960
or you had fifty four million dollars
worth of houses or something. No.

795
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.239
And to top that off, we
got a statement from one of the banks

796
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.400
that they didn't lose any money.
So the government was saying that I caused

797
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:37.400
all these millions of dollars. And
so we called Mark Bennett and Dan Cassaris

798
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.039
and we said, hey, we
have a statement from this company called Urgent

799
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:44.760
Mortgage, which was owned by City
Group, and they said that they didn't

800
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:46.760
lose any money. And Mark Bennett
said, it doesn't matter, because you

801
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:52.960
intended to cause these multimillion dollars of
losses. And so I'm ordered to pay

802
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:57.360
restitution to lenders that did not lose
money. So even though that they we

803
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.599
found out later that they didn't lose
money, the government said, it doesn't

804
00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:05.159
matter. You intended to cause losses. Listen in federal court. These prosecutors

805
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.559
do whatever they want. They trample
the constitution. I'm ordered to pay millions

806
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:12.480
of dollars that I never got and
that the bank didn't lose money. And

807
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.719
now the thing is called and you
guys can google it if you're board intended

808
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:22.559
loss, and the government can still
set sentencing amount based on intended loss because

809
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:24.000
let me tell you, if there's
no loss, we could go to trial

810
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:27.280
and lose and we wouldn't go to
jail. I mean, if I steal

811
00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:30.400
exactly zero dollars in your chuck and
I'm convicted of it, okay, you

812
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:34.960
know, or I steal one cent
or something, there wouldn't be a jail

813
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.079
sentence. My jail sentence was based
on these huge loss amounts. And even

814
00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:43.039
when we proved that there was no
loss amounts, the prosecutors still I mean

815
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:45.840
again, they'll say anything. Facts
don't matter with prosecutors. They do whatever

816
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:52.039
they want to whoever they want,
for as long as they want. But

817
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:53.480
when you ask, by the way, real quick, I'm going to answer

818
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:57.800
the question, what can people do? We have a petition unchange dot org.

819
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.280
It's linked on the bottom of the
free tone Viola dot com website.

820
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.800
We really need people. We've got
almost five thousand signatures. Why aren't these

821
00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:07.760
prosecutors indict it when they break the
law and hide evidence. So that's one

822
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:12.679
two. If anyone wants to go
on our website and sign up for the

823
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.079
emails, you don't get that many. It's every six weeks, but we'll

824
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:19.320
give you a case update. You
want to share your thoughts or or information

825
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.039
with us, please do. We
have a great private investigator if you want.

826
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:24.920
If anything we have it's helpful to
anybody, we will share it.

827
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:30.000
If anyone has information that they want
to share with us about any any of

828
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:32.480
the players in our case, we
appreciate that as well. Mostly, the

829
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.920
thing people can do, they're already
destroyed my life and ruin my business.

830
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.719
The thing we want is this not
to continue to happen. So we need

831
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:43.920
to get rid of this thing called
qualified immunity, where government officials can break

832
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:46.480
the law and they can't be held
accountable. We need to have accountability.

833
00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:50.440
I don't hate the police, I
don't hate prosecutors, but I'm just telling

834
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.199
you they should have to follow the
law and if their case sucks, they

835
00:53:53.199 --> 00:53:57.320
should dismiss it. Instead, let
me tell you what they did. So

836
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:00.079
back to the point. So Dan
Cassaris and Mark Bennett were worried that some

837
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:06.440
honest detective would write down what app
Michelle's and Obi saying that I was innocent

838
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:08.360
and I didn't own mortgage companies because
she worked for me for ten years and

839
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:13.119
knew that I was a realtor,
not in the mortgage business. And so

840
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:16.800
the prosecutors were worried that honest police
or detectives would write that down. So

841
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:21.639
they started interviewing people themselves, and
then they didn't make notes of people who

842
00:54:21.639 --> 00:54:23.960
said that I was innocent. Guy
named Nick Miles gave me a statement.

843
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:30.320
Remember those mortgage companies and vanishing computers. Dan Cassara, as the prosecutor,

844
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:31.679
said, look, you're going to
go to court and commit persury. You're

845
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:35.800
gonna lie and say you never gave
us these computers, or we're going to

846
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:37.920
indict your wife and put your kids
in foster care, and you have four

847
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:40.440
minutes to decide. I'm gonna go
right back to my office. It's not

848
00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:44.320
a big deal, grand juries here. I'm going to indict your wife,

849
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:47.400
or you're going to do what we
say. So we have the government manufacturing

850
00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:52.920
false testimony in federal and state court. But let me tell you the worst

851
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:55.119
thing thing they did. The worst
thing they did was Mark Bennett's and Dan

852
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:59.719
Cassara shared an office manager named Dawn
Pisella. She was the office manager of

853
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:02.320
this ask force. She was handling
all the evidence in the case. They

854
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:06.760
were worried that I was going to
win a trial, and they had her

855
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:13.039
pretending to be a paralegal helping criminal
defense attorneys prepare for mortgage fraud trials.

856
00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:17.320
And she was wearing a wire and
recorded our trial strategy, our trial preparation

857
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:22.840
sessions. She's involved with our trial
preparation and she's actually working for the prosecutors.

858
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:27.480
And this is after I'm indicted.
This is completely illegal. It would

859
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:30.039
be like if I bugged the prosecutor's
office. That's a strade violation of your

860
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:36.880
attorney client privilege to begin with.
And then exactly so, okay, right,

861
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:39.639
it's illegal. It's called intrusion into
the sixth Amendment right to counsel.

862
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:44.199
If the government wants to talk to
me, they got to bring me down

863
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:45.880
to the office and I could bring
my lawyer. I was indicted this time,

864
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:47.960
but they were worried they were going
to lose the case, so they

865
00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:51.800
thought it'd be a good idea to
have this lady Dawn Passella. Then she

866
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:57.400
wrote a check towards my legal fees
so they could track and then they used

867
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.639
it to track the law firm's expenses
and and investigations. Then they found out

868
00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:04.800
who else was supporting me, because
people were donating to help me. Anyway,

869
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:07.519
Dawn started taking the evidence that these
guys were hiding out of the office,

870
00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:12.719
and after I'm convicted in federal court, but before my sentencing, she

871
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:15.840
comes forward and tells me, Hey, these guys are hiding all kinds of

872
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:17.719
evidence. You're totally innocent. And
I'm like, well, where is this

873
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.400
evidence? She so I haven't,
and so she gives it to me that

874
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:24.079
they knew the bank offered to no
money down Ninja, no income, no

875
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:29.800
job, no asset loan. They
knew that the people said they had no

876
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:31.800
money when they were buying these houses, and the bank approved. And so

877
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:36.679
Dawn offered to testify at the second
trial. She helped me prepare before I

878
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:40.440
was imprisoned for the second trial,
and we totally destroyed the government's case with

879
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:45.440
their own documents. And she said
that documents are the key. The prosecutor

880
00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:51.239
can't intimidate documents, can't threaten documents, and they're contemporaneous with when these deals

881
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.480
actually were submitted them, destroy them, hide them, and that's the problem.

882
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:59.679
Look, I got a couple of
live comments and questions from the chat

883
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:01.239
room. I just want to go
over them real quick before we'll let you

884
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:06.840
go. And let's see when they
was he prosecuted by local, state or

885
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:09.679
FEDS? I thought he said the
FBI was involved. Were First of all,

886
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:15.360
there was a joint task force.
And then he was actually prosecuted both

887
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:19.719
in federal and state court. Is
that correct? Yes? Correct? I

888
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.679
was treated like a terrorist. It's
very rare to have people prosecuted in both

889
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:29.239
federal and state court at the same
time by the same prosecutors on identical charges.

890
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:31.960
How can you defend yourself? I've
got the United States of America versus

891
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.159
Tony and trust me. That means
the government will use all of its power

892
00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:38.639
to destroy me and the state of
Ohio. So at the same time,

893
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:43.199
I'm fighting both of these prosecutions.
Yes, that is correct. Okay,

894
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:45.400
So we got one comment here,
sounds like the American way. What do

895
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:49.880
you want? Yeah? I get
that in my attitude. Also, at

896
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:53.400
let's see, so they violated the
Brady rule use the spoiled fruit of a

897
00:57:53.719 --> 00:57:59.199
Yeah, they used the poison fruit
of the tainted tree, right, which

898
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:04.559
is very simple. If you have
somebody that has probably committed perjury in this

899
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:07.920
case especially, but even if they
probably committed perjury in a court before you

900
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:12.320
got a witness, that really should
be discounted or at the very least,

901
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.639
a jury needs to be informed this
person has lied under oath. So that's

902
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:20.760
the way that usually works. And
yeah, it does y to violate the

903
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.559
Brady role, that's one way to
put it, but it actually violates a

904
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:29.519
couple of things. Let's see um
committed criminal conspiracy themselves and the DOJ sounds

905
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:32.719
routine. Okay, Yeah, sometimes
you have to send to win. That's

906
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:37.119
a quote from da Henry Wade.
And indeed I believe he did say that.

907
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.079
I'm one of the few people I
know that actually spoke to Henry Wade

908
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:45.239
before he died. But anyway,
yeah, interesting guy wanted to tell me

909
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:47.199
that story about Jack Ruby having built
it out the hole. Anyway, it

910
00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:52.480
doesn't matter. Let's see riveting blah
blah Joint Task Force. Okay, here's

911
00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:55.480
the suggestion from an anonymous chatter.
It says, if he was wise,

912
00:58:55.480 --> 00:59:00.119
he should volunteer to testify right now
under the political uses of the DOJ and

913
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:07.880
FBI probably would bring this to an
end. Question mark um call Representative Comber

914
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:12.239
is a follow up? I looked. That's the advice from the chat room,

915
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:15.639
my friend. I'm just telling you, Tony, so maybe look look

916
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:20.960
into it. People are having hearing
put a chat or a comment. I

917
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.800
appreciate it, Thank you so much. I wrote these suggestions down and I

918
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.639
will follow up. And I'm grateful
that folks took the time to make those

919
00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:30.440
suggestions. So thanks to each of
your live listeners who were able to make

920
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.840
a suggestion. Absolutely, and I'm
putting the website once again into the live

921
00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:37.320
chat at o'helly dot com. Now, if you're not on the live chat,

922
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:38.400
that's fine. You can go back
to the chat room and roll it

923
00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:42.199
back. It sits there on chat
Tango. You don't even have to sign

924
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:45.159
into it to read it. So
go right ahead and you can look back

925
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:49.840
at this and also get the direct
link to his website, which is free

926
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:54.679
Tony Viola dot com all one word
free Tony Viola dot com. That is

927
00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:59.519
where you can go. The change
dot org petition link is on there.

928
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:01.519
He said. You can sign up
for the newsletter and they're only gonna bother

929
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:05.159
you about once every six weeks.
With that, if you sign up for

930
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:09.199
the email newsletter. Is there anything
else they should do besides that except learn?

931
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:14.000
And I would suggest learn your you
know, find out what your position

932
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:16.159
is, and always remember to be
as well educated as you can be.

933
01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:22.440
The moment you get a whiff of
you might be prosecuted. It doesn't matter

934
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.280
if it's state, federal, whatever. You got to be careful with these

935
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:30.320
guys because a lot of times they're
out for a result and they don't really

936
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.519
care about what happens to you.
So white collar, blue collar, no

937
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:38.440
collar. The criminal justice system,
as per general, as per normal,

938
01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:45.159
as per usual is guess what selectively
enforced at all times. Welcome to what

939
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:49.320
we used to call America anyway,
Tony, anything you want to say in

940
01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:53.119
closing, well, for two quick
things. One is never talk to an

941
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:57.800
FBI agent ever unless you have a
video camera rolling, because the FBI does

942
01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:00.119
not record your statement. They write
up a summary, and trust me,

943
01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:04.079
they write up what they want,
not what people tell them. So don't

944
01:01:04.119 --> 01:01:08.280
ever talk to an FBI agent without
a camera rolling or recording it yourself or

945
01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:12.079
with an attorney. People want to
help, and when the FBI says,

946
01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:14.400
hey, we have a couple of
questions, Oh, sure, don't do

947
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:17.239
it because they'll prosecute you. They
are already decided that you're a target.

948
01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:22.360
Don't don't listen to their stuff.
But I guess the most important thing is

949
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:24.400
is justice for Dawn dot Com,
which is another thing. Dawn Fissel,

950
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:28.719
the whistleblower that came forward to help
me, was going to testify at the

951
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:32.119
second trial and was found dead under
mysterious circumstances. So I guess that I

952
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:36.400
want to conclude by saying, yes, we're fighting for my exoneration, but

953
01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:38.440
it's much bigger than that. We
want all these twelve hundred of these cases

954
01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:42.480
reopened. We want to know what
happened to Dawn Passel of the office manager

955
01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:45.400
that was wearing a wire. She's
treated very poorly by these prosecutors Bennett and

956
01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:49.199
Cassaras, and they should be ashaded
of themselves. But I think that they

957
01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:52.760
also engaged in witness tampering, witness
intimidation, and maybe worse. So I

958
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:55.239
want to conclude by saying, if
it wasn't for Dawn, I wouldn't be

959
01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:59.079
on your show right now. It
would be in jail, and secondly,

960
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.400
we need to she's not here to
fight for her for herself. We want

961
01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:06.880
to try to encourage anybody who has
an inclination to learn more about Dawn's story.

962
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:09.440
Dawn Pisella and their website is called
Justice for Dawn dot com. Chalk,

963
01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:13.039
thank you so much for the chance
to be on your show. Absolutely

964
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:15.000
on her and I wish you the
best and all you do. I love

965
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:16.519
your show and all you do,
and I'm just so excited to be a

966
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:19.800
part of it. Listen, I
really appreciate that. Can you do me

967
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.679
one paper and just spell out Dawn's
name for the listener who is not reading

968
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:27.079
anything right now, just spell out
her name so they can look her up

969
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:30.880
begin to take a look at her
case, her situation. I think that's

970
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:34.639
entirely necessary. Actually, you you
have a way to link off of your

971
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.360
website to her circus. Yeah,
you can go to the free Tony website,

972
01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:40.079
but it's Justice for Dawn dot com. Or you could just google it.

973
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.760
Because there's been a lot of coverage
of what's happened at Dawn, including

974
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:47.199
Uncovered dot com, which is helping
spearhead a new investigation. Her name is

975
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:54.000
Dawn fossella pas e La and she
passed away during my second trial under suspicious

976
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:58.639
circumstances and with the family, and
I and her friends are demanding a new

977
01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:02.960
investigation into what happened her. So
any ideas or support or help or signing

978
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:07.679
our petition unchanged. Dot Orgust greatly
appreciate it. At whish John was here.

979
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:10.039
She's my friend, she's great,
Everyone would have loved her, but

980
01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:15.320
but we have to try to get
justice or at least accountability for what happened

981
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:17.679
to her. So I guess I'd
leave everyone on that note. And Dawn

982
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:22.960
was an idealist, so you know, an idealist always thinks that somehow,

983
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.599
some way it's going to end on
a positive note. So that's what we're

984
01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:30.199
hoping for, fair enough, And
look, justice is often delayed, but

985
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:34.400
it is never too late for the
truth. Tony Myole has been my guest

986
01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:38.760
this hour, and I hope you
guys learned something, and unfortunately I think

987
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:43.199
you did on this Ocelly effect.
So no matter who you are, where

988
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:45.679
you are, when you are,
I am merely o'ceelly, all of you

989
01:03:45.760 --> 01:04:32.000
are indeed the effect. Good Night, Wall Street, Greindow, Dot dou

990
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:44.400
veryl Silver the stock market, Wall
Street, Reindo dot dot. Perhaps you're

991
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:47.639
invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in
deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting

992
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:53.920
started Wall Street, Windows dot com, doos dot com. Michael Swanson,

993
01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:59.119
the brilliant author of the War State, understood these trends professionally for many years,

994
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:06.320
and now he gives to the benefit
of his knowledge Wall dot dot Go

995
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:14.719
there, now, go there,
now there, Now? What would I

996
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:23.280
do? Revelation through conversation in a
radio show slash podcast. You want the

997
01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:30.000
good news, listen to the o'celly
effect. Shack o'celli is the most underrated

998
01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:36.159
voice in all media, news,
education, and entertainment. The daily bread

999
01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:40.639
from o'celli dot com. Go there,