This week we get into the revolution of high tech satellite imagery and ancient sites
of Egypt. We'll be looking at the Hawara Pyramid and its association with an
underground labyrinth which was visited by Herodotus, the great Greek historian, and excavated
and documented by Flinner's Petrie, the father of Egyptology, in the late eighteen
hundreds. And we want to know more about this mythological labyrinth. Through images
by satellite scans, we now know that there is a labyrinth. There is
details of this labyrinth from this imagery, and we're going to learn about its
great age, its purpose, and why we haven't heard about it from the
Egyptian authorities. All this and more today on Earth Ancients for Saturday, October
fourteenth, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host,
Cliff Dunning. Hey, how you doing come? I didn't have a seat.
Good to see you. I have questioned history from a very young age.
In fact, I think I've mentioned a number of times that I was
asked to Sunday school numerous times because I questioned the Bible, I questioned the
scriptures. I even questioned the man that is known as Jesus Christ of Nazarene
and since that time, you know, and I think it has to do
with my grandfather, who was a country doctor, but he had just an
amazing library of Native American history. He had books by some of the early
anomalists, people like Charles Fort and others who I found quite unique. And
these people were documenting unusual history, unusual events that were not necessarily reported by
the newspapers or magazines of the turn of the century nineteen hundreds. He lived
in the late eighteen hundreds, Charles Fort is who I'm referring to, and
into the early nineteen hundreds. But I've always questioned history, and I've question
the way it's interpreted. And as you've been listening to the shows, we've
had Native Americans, and most notably doctor Pauline Steve's. Doctor Steves, who
is an indigenous archaeologist from Canada. If you remember she is working, presents
in her book decades if not more than one hundred years of she considers ethnic
cleansing where the oral traditions of her people and the native people throughout America the
Americas has been disavowed or ignored, and we are we now know that these
oral traditions are extremely important, but the issues around delving into history and looking
at ancient cultures is a big problem for me. And years ago when I
started flying in meetium my Native Mayan friends in Yucatan, I definitely was having
problems with the interpretations of their culture, the Maya culture, the beliefs that
pyramids were tombs for dead people, and on and on and on. It
got to be a real problem for me, and this is where we began
to see the launch of Earth Ancients. And I think I also mentioned that
I was working in the corporate world in the mid nineteen nineties. I worked
for PayPal for a number of years and then was a program director for a
conference called Whole Life Expo that was in the late nineties. I eventually worked
for other conferences that wanted my expertise on ancient cultures and people who had written
about them. But not only that, UFOs aliens kind of scrange anomalies,
personal growth, spirituality, wellness. This is where destiny comes from and my
need to express that desire to educate people about options for a wellness, for
spirituality, for personal growth. But Earth Ancients is really about my need to
awaken us to a history that is being ignored. And today's guest is doctor
Mark Carlotto, who has uncovered some very interesting data on the Hawara Labyrinth in
Egypt, which is documented as far back as Herodotus, which who was the
Greek historian who saw part of it and wrote a great deal about it.
And then later in the eighteen hundreds, Flinders Petrie, who's considered the father
of Egyptology, excavated the area where this labyrinth was and was very detailed in
his description of this huge underground labyrinth. Now you know, the issues with
this is that we only hear it from outsiders. We don't hear it from
the Egyptian authorities themselves, and it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that there seems to
be a lockdown when it comes to certain revelations about the ancient Egyptian past,
certain sciences and technology, and it's become a problem to the point where here
we are with these two scientists in Europe, Bione and Malanga, scanning the
Great Pyramid with this SAR technology without permission from the Antiquities Department. And let
me tell you why I think they did this and why this is becoming a
problem. Prior to that scan, we had the work of the Scan Pyramid
Group, which is a consortium of scientists from Japan, from Egypt, and
from Europe, and they were able to scan and discover this corridor above the
original entrance of the Kufu Pyramid, the Great Pyramid. But what people don't
understand is this data has been held almost at ransom and they have not been
allowed to release the full spectrum of their discoveries. There's a number of other
discoveries of other rooms, apparently in corridors that have not been released to the
public because the Antiquities Department doesn't feel that the public's ready. That's one.
That's one reason. And the other reason is, and I had to be
blunt about this, the Egyptians, the Antiquities Department, and the people behind
it have a complex. They do not want to have a notoriety of these
new discoveries by anyone other than the Egyptians. And if you saw the Netflix
special with the Zai hiwas doctor Hawas excavating parts of what he thinks is a
new pyramid. He is very specific in his language of not wanting future discoveries
to be outside of Egypt. He can't control this. But they are cont
controlling the narrative. And this doesn't just happen in Egypt. This happens in
Mexico all the time. And we are left hands tied because we do not
live there. You know, they want our money, but they want us
to be bound by their rules and their regulations, and unfortunately it's a bit
backwards. You know, they're thinking is backwards and it is restrictive, and
it's extremely frustrating. So again, Beyones work, excuse me, yeah,
Beones work and Malanga scan the Kufu Pyramid. I have had doctor Manuseesiday as
well as Mark Carlotto speak about this scan. It is a significant scan.
I have a full version of the scan on our Facebook page. But they
did not ask permission. They wrote a book about it, and I'm sure
the Egyptian authorities are very unhappy. This kind of technology is giving us a
real good idea of just how sophisticated the ancients were. It's beginning to look
like the historians don't want us to know that these pre dynastics, these early
people in Egypt had this technology. And we'll here today from Mark in the
last part of this interview where he actually believes that this Hiwara Labyrinth is of
the earlier epoch and it dates between seventy five thousand and over one hundred and
thirty thousand years from this inception point. Those are unrealistic numbers for present day
scientists. But you know what, these people have got to release the burden
of data that is old. It is, it is not accurate, and
it is deceiving to tell people that these early people who built the pyramid,
who built many of the temples and buildings like the Osirian, which is a
total anomaly. And I mean I can probably name twenty different buildings that are
not from any other period but pre Dynastic, a pre period that ends around
nine thousand, five hundred years ago, so prior to nine thousand, five
hundred years ago, or excuse me, five hundred BC, which is twelve
thousand, five hundred years ago. There was the end of the last Epoch,
and I'm discovering and many of the people we have on earth, ancients,
are revealing that there was a very sophisticated culture who built not only the
pyramid, but many of the structures, many of the underground structures that we'll
hear about, not only today, But every week that we have somebody talking
about Egypt is bringing this up. So Earth Agients is about revealing this data
in as professional a manner as possible. We don't get into ancient aliens.
This is not the work of aliens. This is not the work of some
off world group. Although if we talk about the Maya, they do have
an ancient, ancient history of working with star people, but that's not the
Egyptians. The Egyptians are a different look. I think that the ancestors,
the earlier epochs were very likely as sophisticated as we were, which means that
they were able to leave the planet in vehicles and study other planetary systems.
That's my belief, and we don't have time to talk about that right now.
That's my general belief. So anyhow, today's program is a situation where
we have evidence from the Greeks, Herodotus, we have Flinders Petrie, we
have other people that we're going to hear about today that are done ground penetrating
radar, which is good to hear and have come back with solid evidence of
an underground system of buildings and rooms and pillars and so forth and so on,
And why the authorities do not jump into that well a lot of reasons,
no money, no ambition to do this, restrictive nature, and it
goes on and on and on and on. So the purpose of Earth Ancients
is to bring you data on a new paradigm, a new paradigm of revelational
science, a new paradigm of discovering technology. And the new paradigm is opening
us to understand who our ancestors were. And we're using the latest technology ground
penetarian radar, satellite scans, saar technology, and software scanning tools that can
penetrate solid grantite and stone, and on and on and on to reveal the
ancients technology. It's time to move on from this old, dead rhetoric you've
been fed for decades, rhetoric that tombs were burials of pharaohs, you know,
and that the pre dynastic people were simple, that they were hunters and
gatherers. Our Orthodox history, for the most part, when it comes to
ancient cultures, is guesswork, complete guesswork. It's asked backwards as well,
it's completely asked backwards. So I want to play a short audio from a
video that I'll post on the Earth Ancient Facebook page on the Mattaiah expedition of
two thousand and eight. This is the first time that ground penetrating radar is
used at Hawara, and there's a pyramid there, and there's this labyrinth that
they discoverers have a quick listen Howara situated ninety kilometers south of Cairo and location
of the legendary Labyrinth of Egypt. In the Renaissance period, some attempts were
made to make a graphic reconstruction of the colossal structure based on the writings of
Herodotus and Strabo, who visited the labyrinth in the Roman period. Two levels,
twelve palaces, and no less than three thousand chambers. In eighteen eighty
eight, archaeologist Flinders Petrie discovered a stone plate at the foot of the pyramid,
measuring three hundred and four by two hundred and forty four meters and covered
under five meters of sand. He made the generally accepted assumption that this was
the foundation of the disappeared labyrinth. The young Belgian artist Louis de Cordier doubted
this theory, and in the beginning of two thousand and eight he financed and
led the Mattahar Exhibition. His thesis proved to be reality. A professional team
of geophysicists discovered a vast grid of walls underneath the stone plate. This alleged
foundation might very well be the roof of the still existing labyrinth. The large
amount of underground scanning data is analyzed by the geophysicists of the National Research Institute
of Astronomy and Geophysics. Soon Polygon Graphics will present a three dimensional visualization based
on the geophysic results, which will bring us a step closer to the truth
about the Labyrinth of Egypt. So that's the Mattia expedition from two thousand and
eight. They brought in what looked like at that time the best ground penetrating
radar equipment. That's when they put a system together on wheels and they push
it across the surface of the snut of the sand, and they get back
and reading, and then they compile it it all into a page and you
can see various high and low spots, and so forth and so on.
We'll hear from Mark today on exactly what was discovered. I want to mention
this before we get to the interview. I have found most of the photographs
and graphs from Mark's article and they will be placed on the Earth Ancient's Facebook
page, which automatically goes to the Earth Ancient's website and then you can find
it under Facebook feed there if you're not a fan of social media. So
so lots to cover today, and the program is Egypt's Forgotten Labyrinth and my
guest today is doctor Mark Carlato. There are so many marvelous buildings, temples,
pyramids and structures in Egypt that there's actually too many to count. And
one of the big challenges I've had for a number of years is that the
look, the analysis, the descriptions are very one sided or very what I
would say myopic, which means that they're from an Egyptological point of view and
not really passed through other lenses. And when I say lenses, these are
other scientific fields, be it engineering, be it chemistry, physics, whatever.
And when you bring in these other sciences and you start looking at say
the pyramids or temples or things like that, you begin to see it from
a different point of view. And this has been an this is my opinion,
this has been a problem for Egyptologists for a long long time. When
they begin to hear from engineers who say, this pyramid could not have been
a tomb simply because this, this, and this, this temple could not
have been built at this time because of this, this and this, So
long story short, My guest today is doctor Mark Carlotto. We've had Mark
on quite a few times, and I love having Mark on the program because
I love to hear what he has to say. He usually says some great
stuff. But if you don't know who Mark Carlotto is used an aerospace engineer
with thirty years of experience. But more importantly, Mark is a satellite imagery
remote sensing expert, and what that means is that he can tell what the
hell is coming off these satellites when they're imaging various buildings from miles above the
Earsatmos. And this is opening up this research that he's doing in others is
opening up a whole different narrative about these ancient buildings. And Mark has written
an article on his excellent Before Atlantis website on this labyrinth that we've talked about
in the past. It's called the Labyrinth, the Colossi and the Lake New
evidence of advanced prehistoric civilizations in the Fayum, and this labyrinth has been discussed
for centuries probably and we're going to bring Mark on in a second, but
I just want to mention that in Night in twenty fifteen, I had doctor
Carmen Bolter on the program. She had produced, written, produced and developed
this series called The Pyramid Code. And within that program she mentioned the labyrinth
and we'll talk a little bit about that, but we never got beyond that
small mention until now. And this is important. This is a very important
labyrinth and it's been discussed, like I said, for centuries. And Mark
Carlotto, it's great to see you. Thanks for joining me today on Earth
Ages. How you been nice to see a clip. It's been a while.
That's a long winded introduction for you, but like I said, it's
great to have you on the program. Let's start by asking what was what's
the interest? I mean, you know about Egypt. I mean there's pyramids,
there's these wonderful temples. What was the interest? What did you How
did you fall into this research on this labyrinth? Well, clip, as
you know, I'm still I'm still gainfully employed, and I was actually looking
for some data for a project that we're doing on something called change detection,
where you take satellite images and you compare them and you automatically find changes.
And I thought, you know, let me just let me go to let
me, let me just go to some interesting places that I you know,
that I find interesting. You know, like on Google Earth, you can
get an image anywhere practically, And for some reason, I thought, ah,
let me go, let me go to Hawara because we were I were
a member of a sort of an informal archaeology group, and we've been talking
about it often on the last couple of months, and I thought to myself,
do you I wonder if there's any any SAR imagery over Houara. Yeah,
And it turned out that there was, And it actually turned out the
imagery wasn't suitable for my project, but I saw something in it that I
didn't expect, and uh, you know so much just serendipity in this,
in this business, in this trade, in this uh whatever it is that
we're doing this endeavor, this quest, and uh so I just pursued it
and one thing to another, and so here we are. That's a that's
an interesting answer, but I appreciate it now real quickly. When we talk
about SAR, I discovered that geologists use it for piercing volcanic rock to discern
the volatility of I guess it's you'd consider it the the the runoff, uh,
the lava flow, and I guess it's the use it for early warning.
But how did you discover that they were using it? It's just something
that the USGS, you know, you know, the United States Theological Survey
Team annually does is just scan huge portions of the planet. And you picked
it up here or what well? I mean, Synthetic aperture radar has been
around for decades, but I don't know. I don't have an exhaustive knowledge,
but I know the European Space Agency has this thing called the Copernicus Initiative,
and they have Sentinel one, which is a SAR satellite and it flies
over and it collects data periodically over an area. So this is really good
for doing for doing change attection you're talking about volcanoes. What you can do
with SAR is you can do something called interferometric star which is compared to images
taken from exactly the same location. And when you do that, you can
detect changes that are very very subtle, like changes in lava flows and things
like that that you were that you that you were mentioning. So it has
you know, great interest to the geological community for that and you know,
for other reasons as well. Okay, so you had been doing some research
on this labyrinth and you found these these SARS scans. Let's go back a
little early. What do we know about this, uh, this labyrinth.
We know that the her story and the Greek historian Herodotus talk a great deal
about it. So let's talk about the school back a little bit. And
what does he say about this site. Well, he seems to be the
primary source that others reference. Others may have seen it as well, but
he's the best documented and it's the most detailed description. As you know,
we we learned nothing from the Egyptians about the site. There was no record,
no mention of this otherwise. So it was in the you know,
in Herotis Herodotus's history that he writes about it. And uh, you know,
I in the article on on before Atlantis, on the on the labyrinth
and the Colossi in the lake. You know, I have I pull all
the sort of original Herodicis quotes and he you know, talks about this this
feature that was you know, relatively intact in the fifth century b c.
That he was quite impressed by. And he had seen a lot of ancient
wonders in Egypt and other parts of the world, and he was, you
know, clearly impressed by it. And he talks about not only what we
you know, what we see the ruins at the surface, but something that
was below ground. And he was denied access to that the Egyptian priests would
not let him in. But there was something there and and so that was
you know, really the beginning of the of the myth of of not only
the labyrinth, but this underground portion that may still be there, perhaps someone
intact. So this is this is where it all began. And it's been
a lot of a lot of speculation really about it, I would say,
until I mean it. It was. It was Flinder's Petrie and and Lepsius
and others that were in the area that like eighteen hundreds in early nineteen hundreds
with the first excavations and finding finding the ruins of of of something that had
been you know, clearly taken apart in and repurposed like you know, like
the Egyptians and others often do you you know, the materials are scarce and
expensive and you reuse them. Right. One of the areas that I would
like to get your impression on is the age of this site. Now I've
seen a few videos of the Hawara Pyramid. Yeah, it's mud brick.
And what's really weird is when you look at it, the foundation is megalithic
stone. So when you're saying that it was perhaps enhanced or other groups,
maybe Early Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, Late Kingdom, or somebody was in
there modifying it, it sure looks like that. So talk a little bit
about the age and the modifications. Well, yeah, I mean the pyramid
of i'm an nhead, the third i'm an endhead being mud. We're clearly
uh inferior construction, later construction than what had come before that. And so
you have not only the pyramid, but you have the funerary complex mortuary complex
below it, and you know, there's been elements of that that have been
excavated, and you know, I've seen a number of films online and it's
you know, the site is in the state of you know, advanced decay.
There really hasn't been much done to preserve it. There's a lot of
concern about that, particularly to the south and closer to the canal for reasons
that you know, we can maybe get into later having to do the water.
But yeah, I mean, you know, here's another example. How
many times have we seen this where you have inferior construction built over something that's
much more sophisticated in terms of materials, workmanship, and so forth. And
that's what we have that took place and an end had the third was I
believe it was that like twelfth Dynasty. I can't I'm not really, I
don't remember. I don't remember. It's much. Yeah. So when you
use that pyramid as a measuring tool and the current scans of what we think
is the labyrinth, what do we think for an original date of construction?
Would we say, you actually write about this, but I want you to
tell me a little more about it. Would this be pre Ice age,
would it be a few thousand years before? Would it be prior to the
Dynastics? What what is your feeling on the antiquity of this place? Well,
first of all, I don't think the labyrinth has anything to do with
the pyramid. Okay, I don't think it has anything to do with the
mortuary complex. I don't think it's part of it. So I think there's
at least three things there. There's a pyramid of the mortuary complex, labyrinth,
and there may be even there also appear to be structure structures to the
north. Now, don't I don't. I'd like to defer discussion on how
old I think it is, because this is going to tie into the before
Atlantis narrative, which is, you know, my primary research interest. But
it's not, you know, it's not the hammer of that makes everything look
like a nail, you know, I mean, it is what it is.
I have a theory about previous civilizations and poll shifts that has really nothing
to do with this paper. However, it provides a context at the end
for interpreting some of the results, and the results have to do with how
these things are aligned. And let me just say this for now that the
alignment of the labyrinth, or what appears to be what I detected and appears
to be a geometrical structure of the size Blenders Peatree talks about. It is
oriented in a different direction than the pyramid and the mortuary complex to the north,
which tells me that it's completely independent, and I believe it's far more
ancient because it's by virtual of the fact that's also buried and buried quite deeply,
at least the underground part. Let's talk about Flinder's Petrie, because he
writes a great deal about this, and I didn't know that the pyramid and
the mortuary facility is not part of it. I thought it was all kind
of interconnected. Did Petrie make that distinction or how did how did you come
to that conclusion? Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know. I
was trying to piece it together, trying to sort of read in between the
lines. You know. He he excavated, excavated stuff that was at the
surface. He found, he found artifacts, you know, a lot of
a lot of debris, not enough to reconstruct much in the way of foundations
or a ground plan, although he did get a you know, some general
a sense of the scale of the object, at least the north south dimension,
and uh, you know, and and based on that, you know,
I came up with an estimate of what I thought the area was,
you know, and you know, it was the earliest and probably you know,
the best survey has you know, quite a few illustrations in his book.
I forget the title of it. One of as many books. That's
all. It's all available open source now. You can download all this stuff
and read it for free, right and there's links on the website to that.
But yeah, I mean that was the primary source that that I used
to sort of establish the fact that that he found something there and he determined
an approximate size. And the reason I felt that was important is that the
other the other work that you know, we've been talking about, the Matama
and the and the Bolt and Bolter, Yeah, Carmen Bolter, Carmen Bolter,
that was based on just sort of doing you know, doing some sensing,
or in the case of the Matama, was doing you know, doing
a sort of ground based surveys. So it's it's sort of like sort of
like the soda straw, You're looking very close up at something that may be
you know, much much larger. So I was kind of interested. It's
kind of a long winded answer, but I was kind of interested in with
the sort of synoptic view, can we get sort of a can we can
we get some evidence that says, yeah, okay, here it is right
here, rather than you have a little bit of that you know here in
this you know, that we're seeing through the sensor here or here or here.
So I was really interested kind of in the scope, the scale of
it and how that compared to what Petrie found and what I and what I
found was very consistent with what he was, very consistent with his survey.
Okay, describe the what you believe what Petrie believed was the entire structure of
this labyrinth, because what I didn't realize is that it's on the surface,
there's a portion on the surface, and then somehow you enter the labyrinth and
there's multiple levels. Apparently, isn't that what what was the thinking? Well,
I mean that that some of these scans seem to show multiple levels.
But again, uh, you know, we can get into it maybe a
little bit later. How they did the scan, with the technology they used,
you know, the methods, none of that was published, so who
really knows. But let's let's just you know, sticking with what Petrie found.
He you know, he he he walked through and above the ground structure,
and he talks about it, all these rooms and chambers, and it
was it was a massive in scale, and there was this underground portion of
it as as well. And I mean, I'm sorry that was herodoonous.
What Patrion talks about is discovering these ruins and believing that he was dealing with
the foundation of a structure. Okay, so he thought he was dealing with
the foundation of the labyrinth. What then became evident subsequently that was the possibility
that what he found was not necessarily the foundation of the labyrinth, but it
could have been the roof of something that remained, that still existed underground.
So we're a multi layered structure. That wouldn't be the foundation, that would
just be what that was built on, which was, you know, a
structure below that. And we actually find that, you know, levels of
building building, buildings over buildings over the buildings. We find that in places
such as Rome, you know, the the Ballbeck is another example. There's
like nine layers or seven seven layers of construction, you know, the Western
Wall, and you find this throughout the world. And so this idea of
building over is not is not revolutionary, so it's it's like a lot of
iological things. So this is sort of this is the basis for what I
was looking for. Was like if Peatree surveyed something that was a certain size
and that's not the foundation if that's in fact the roof of this structure,
that structure underground that could still be there is going to be about a certain
area. So what I found was something that was about that area. Okay,
and I and to you know, to get a little bit ahead of
things. So I want to get a little bit more into the star stuff,
into the remote sensing. What what synthetic aperture radar can do at certain
wavelengths is that it can penetrate dry sand, desert sand. They can look
arow the surface. So it's called ground penetrating radar, and you can do
it from space. You don't have to be you know, dragging a sled.
You know, that's how they do it. Now you've seen Oak Island.
They're dragging these sleds and they're mapping what's underground. And that's what the
the matama. And I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I apologize if i'm
not. But the results of their work were actually we're published and you know
again links are those are are provided in the papers in on the website.
Yeah, give us a real quick summary of the size, because when I
saw your your your article, the thing's huge. It's not like a like
a temple, it's like five or six It's like it's like a couple of
city blocks square. Right, Yeah, I have I have to I have
to find the exact size. I'm not going to find it. I'm just
i was just looking online. But it's uh, it's it's it's enormous.
I mean it's so large that you can pick it up from space. Now,
if you look at the if you look at the pyramids, these a
plateau as large as they are in in this particular SAR sensor Sentinel one,
it has a resolution of about five or five or ten meters per pixel,
So something's got to be really big to be picked up by it. But
the labyrinth is big enough. There's there's there's there's a lot of pixels.
There's uh, there's tens of pixels across and and and widthwise. So it's
it's definitely resolvable and it's large. Now Petrie surveyed the site. Did he
come back with with the specific numbers or did the satellite actually enhance what he
suggested was the size? Well, he he has in his book, he
has drawings and he references a scale that was defined in another drawing so putting,
you know, doing a little detective work. I kind of went back
and figured it out, Okay, what's this, what's the scale? And
his drawing in feet and so I was able to back out what at least
what the I think it was the one dimension was because the only showed part
part of it. It didn't show a fully you know, a fully intact
square enclosure. It was like part of it, and it was you know,
somewhat you know, somewhat stylized. I mean it was you know,
they were like, you know, how they drew things back then, they
embellished things artistically, So yeah, it was it wasn't it was you know,
artist artistic license. And but I mean in terms of the dimensions,
I you know, I was able to determine what they were. And two
hundred and seventy five thousand square feet, Oh my god. Yeah, if
you convert that, well, I don't have it in front of me.
I was trying to think, if that's not like that's like a I was
gonna say, that's not a quarter a mile. It's pretty huge. It's
like in terms of acres. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's huge.
That is that's a monster. Now, I what does Petre say about what
he discovered in terms of getting underground. I don't think he was able to
get underground, was he No, No, he doesn't talk. I'm not
sure. I don't think he says anything about that. I think he just
talks about what he found at the surface. So what does he in the
books, in his writings. Does he suggest that what he has on the
surface, which what I've seen is heavily eroded, very very decomposed, and
very little left. Yeah, of course, even though he lived one hundred
years before us, was there more there than what we see today. Has
it been further excavated or pillaged or we just don't know? I mean,
judging by some of his I think there's a few photos and his drawings,
it seems that what's there today has been It's in many in many ways I
think, degraded. Just the desert environment, you know, just sand moving
around and covering things up. You know, you can dig a hole and
it'll be filled up, you know, after a certain period of time,
and so you know, it's hard to see really much surface detail. In
fact, one of the experiments I did was trying to find an image that
showed some surface detail and I was able to find one that was a low
lower sun angle, one that showed you know, a little bit of relief
there. But it's very very kind of random and chaotic. I mean,
you can almost you can see some pattern at the surface, but I think
a lot more of it is to the north, and you know, it's
it's again, it's not been managed or preserved in any in any way.
So I think short answer to your question is, I think it's gone downhill
since Petrie's time. Wow, So no one's really cared for it whatsoever.
In the films I've seen, it's it's sort of like they bring people out
there just to show them, but it's it's it's not the sort of it's
not like it's not one of the big stops on in the in the Egypt
because other than the mud brick pyramid, which is kind of boring, is
heavily eroded. There's nothing to see. There's really nothing to see. All
right, let's talk about this. Actually we're there are things that there you
can actually crawl into things, I mean there are things you can crawl into,
and there are things that are filled with water. And that's that's a
concern because uh, lake is that. My concern is that the the labyrinth,
which is well anything actually along the canal there, there's a there's a
canal that was built there or rebuilt, and the history that's very interesting it
was it actually that canal actually and you know there's a there's a waterway that
you're familiar with it that actually used to go to the west of the site,
well west and during the I don't know, it was like a couple
of thousand years ago. It started anyway, started filling up with silt and
was not usable as a canal water. So they decided, the Egyptian government
decided to redig a canal, and they couldn't dig it further to the west.
They couldn't they didn't want to dig it out for some reason. They
didn't want to go further to the west because the train actually drops off.
So they decided the only way to do it was actually to put it right
through the middle of the labyrinth. And there's actually some records of the of
these excavations and what they found and what do they what do they find like
pillars or walls or well, they found the remnants of a they found evidence,
and they found evidence of a settlement that had been built like it was
like dynastic times that in that era built from the materials sort of repurposing materials
that had that were there, presumably having dug into something happening to do it
with the labyrinth, and I think it was the underground portion and taking some
of that and just you know, use using stones and whatever as as needed.
And this was right, This is right where that canal cuts through.
And what just makes me wonder more than anything is why no one has started
from the canal. And if you take it, if you see a picture
of it, the canal is well below ground level, twenty or thirty people
low ground level at least. I think. Also it's an underground canal that
they cut in with cement and they put some men in or no, no,
no, no, it's all. No, it's not. And this
is where having having some photos to talk about would be so much easier.
Anyway, there's a photo in the I think it's in the article, one
of the articles, one of the papers, and it shows the canal and
you can see that how it cuts through the landscape with the area of the
labyrinth to the right of it, and it's it's like twenty or thirty people
low ground level. So what I wonder is if you just started at the
level of the canal and started just excavating to the east, you would run
right into the labyrinth. It's it's going to be right there. And a
concern is that because it's so close to the canal, that it's going to
be flooded. At least the lower courses. Uh, there are multiple levels
would be flooded, and that would be a concern. Like with the pyramid
to the north and its foundations, that the water is, you know,
eating away at the at the granite slowly, but it is and it's in
a state of degradation. That's another discussion. Why the authorities don't jump on
that and consider it. Uh, that's we'll talk about that towards the end.
There's a there's a lot of threads here clipped and yeah, and preservation
isn't isn't my thing? Again? My thing was looking at this star image
and saying to myself, what the heck is that? I mean, I
immediately saw this thing and it was about where herodotus that it would be.
But it didn't match either his drawing exactly in terms of the the the orientation.
It didn't match any of the any of the earlier work that we talked
about. It was close, but it didn't correlate exactly, but it was
it was there, and so I wrote the initial paper. I did initial
analysis, I posted it as a working paper. I summarized it, which
is the the the post on Before Atlantis, and I started talking to people
about it, and people had some ideas what I should do next, and
I did them, and I sort of led to a follow follow up paper
that I also have published as a working paper. The links to it is
also on on the Before Atlantis web page, and it gets into much more
detail into the methods I used. So how you know exactly the images I
used, the methods I used, every thing step by step. What I
did is published, and that's why I say it's really the first verifiable evidence
of this because I'm not claiming any proprietary magic technology. You know, I
haven't done this research under the sponsorship of the of and subject to the approval
of the Egyptian government or anyone else. It's totally independent, so I can
publish this. You know. What happened previously was results were published and the
group Mazuma Expedition. They were actually denied further permits to do any any additional
work in Egypt. I find that so strange. So the Mataja Exhibition expedition
did seek approval by the Antiquities Department, Is that your suggesting? So they
were they it was a multidisciplinary effort out of Ghent University. I think it's
said, is that in Belgium or the Netherlands, I'm not sure. Yeah,
two thousand and eight is when they did this, right, let's talk
about what they found good well, and their research actually was published and they
did different types of surveys using using electrical resistivity and ground penetrating, you know,
different ways of looking below the surface. And actually they have a published
paper and they have maps of what they found. But I kind of,
you know, sort of referred to it earlier as like a soda straw,
because something that's two hundred and seventy five thousand square feet, if you're looking
at it, you know, pulling something that's a few feet in you know,
you know, by by a few feet, You're you're mapping things at
a very high resolution, but it's sort of like you're seeing the trees,
but are missing the forest and so you know that, and they were able
to verify and there in their work that there appeared to be vertical structures that
could be walls, suggest seeing that there were rooms or caverns below ground.
So there was in other words, they detected evidence of something below ground that
was structured that could be architectural not not geological. And uh and and you
know so that those that work was was was peer reviewed, it was published,
but evidently it was not done. They didn't follow all the the proper
procedures and they you know, they got in trouble with the with the Egyptian
authorities. Yeah, this is what's happening with a lot of scientists is that
they're going beyond. They're not waiting for approval. They're they're getting their work
done with satellites and this saying, you know, can't be bothered because they
they it's problematic. You're dealing with antiquated society. Yeah, and clippers and
there's nothing sensational about it. It's like, you know, these are these
are sensing techniques. It's like you take a picture the camera, you know,
cameras don't lie, Yeah, and they show you what you know,
what's there, and these things show you what's what's there, So it's like
it's not like anyone's making it up or spinning some kind of yarn and they
have some some agenda and they're they're they're making up all of the data.
It's you can go and you can actually get you know, the data that
I used, and there's there's actually quite a bit more out there you can
download and it takes you need some special tools to do it, but it's
available and it's easily verified. And you know, why anyone would object to
this is beyond me. Without getting into personalities, it looks to me that
the Egyptological community in Egypt, the Antiquities department, has a inferiority complex.
Sahi Oast just did a Netflix program and he basically says that if it's not
discovered by Egyptians, then it's not we don't want to deal with it,
and this is what's happening. They're kind of pushing away. Well, and
I kind of understand what he's saying, because most of the discoveries have been
made by the big ones have been made by other countries, and before a
few, you know, less than one hundred years ago, Egypt was was
was run by nomads. There was no government there and so they're trying to
catch up. And this is what I see. I see a problem before
politics. Yeah, it's politics, but there's also I'm serious, it's an
inferiority complex. We're not good enough, so we're only going to do it.
And Zahi Juass is the spokesman, and this is somebody who should not
be speaking for ancient Egypt. Let's talk more about the Metama expedition. They
used very low frequency electromagnetics surveys. You have a and by the way that
those of you listening, there will be a gallery from Mars that I'm going
to post on the Facebook page that has all these images for you to look
at. You can see all these different scans in the different programs. Let's
get into the spaceport radar imaging with the Sentinel one and I guess it's under
the Compernicus initiative that they launched five different missions and within that, I think
you're saying that they scanned the area that we are considering the labyrinth number of
times. Yeah, I think the revisit rate is like fourteen days or something
like that. So the that's for the star and you know, again they
have but they have different different satellites that visible band that that you know,
image at you know some I think some other frequency, some other rate.
But it's pretty you know, it's pretty regular. And this is know,
this is something that I don't know if you've heard of Lansat Lancet, Oh,
yeah, it's around for years. Yeah, it's one of the first
remote sense commercial remote sensing satellites. You know, they have a you know,
they their orbits are designed to fly over you know, at the same
local time, so it's controlled sun angle and and and you know, they
so you know, commercial remote sensing using optical imagery multi spectral is is very
well known and SAR was because the satellite is more expensive. They they didn't
really they haven't become commercially viable until more, you know, more recently.
I mean, if they've been around for I think a couple of decades now,
but you know, Lansie goes back to the seventies I think. But
yeah, these these satellites fly over at a pretty you know, pretty regularly.
So and the reason they do that is for you know, you know,
I talked about change detection monitoring changes like you know, like in with
with forest fires, for example, with SAR, SAR can see through smoke,
so you can and you can assess what's going on even you know,
under dense cloud cover, smoke, you know, what have you It sees
through that. And with even well, depending on the wavelength, and these
are you know, these are basically radio waves, so changing the wavelength,
going to a little longer wavelength that actually penetrates into the ground. And that's
the modality that you know is exploited in what's called ground penetrating radar. And
that's that's what I did. That's what I That's what I did here.
So talk about the sentinel imagery that you publish, because you have one image
that is next to this canal. Yeah that if I kind of squint my
eyes, I can see a little it looks like structural walls here and there.
And then you have another one that's a little smaller where it's you're outlining
with with squares what you believe could have been a big area that may be
the laborage. So talk a little little bit about the images. Okay,
good, we're on the same we're on the same page, so to speak.
So yeah, the larger one shows the sentinel SAR next to basically the
you know, the ground image, the Google Earth image, which is which
is from another satellite. It's actually from a a you know, it's a
visible band Worldview or some other satellite, and it shows you know how how
who are looks you know, if you were to look down to humanize and
with the SAR is you know how it looks like to if you have radio
frequency eyes, so to speak. Anyway, so the star, it's a
it's a false color. So I take two bands, this something called v
H which is vertically transmitted and horizontally polarized received radiation in BB which is vertically
sent and vertically polarized received. And polarization is basically the sort of direction that
the electromagnetic wave sort of wiggles around in. So it's sent out vertically,
you know, it's up down, and then the vv is kind of what
you get back in the same direction, and the VH is what you get
back in the horizontal direction, and it changes the polarization. Certain things will
change the polarization, like surface rough surfaces, certain types of corner reflectors,
and I what I actually show, you know, in the below I annotate
a couple of features. One is A is a sort of a circular blob,
and that's actually a return from a from a electrical transmission tower that goes
through the area, so that you know, star is really good to pick
on up stuff like that because it's made out of metal. So that's that's
one feature that's sort of like a reference point. And then B and C
that I show are actually seem to be rectilinear sort of structures that are correspond
to the area that roughly Flinders Petrie talks about B. And then maybe another
area is similar to it below that. And then there's an area that I
labeled D, which also seems to have the same kind of texture and also
appears to be sort of geometrical, not not as much, but it's on
the other side of the canal. And and you know, so the hypothesis
is that when they built this, when they rebuilt this canal back, I
forget exactly the data that they you know, they cut through the labyrinth and
they basically you know, used you know, it was sort of split in
half at that point, and so they've actually already you know, dissected it,
if you will, and if you were to go either left or right,
east or west, you might actually encounter the structure that seems evident to
me from from the imagery here. This is what's so bothersome for me is
that if they had a sense that there was an underground structure, why would
they put the canal there. It's destroying And I think you said it was
placed thirty feet as deep as thirty feet, so it may and you just
let us know that they found evidence of of of of stones and structures and
other remnants of a building in there, right, Well, it was done
at a time when so okay, So the Fiume is this area. It's
geologically it's thought that that Lake Maris, which is in the center of it,
was once a much larger paleo lake that existed at the time, goes
back to the time of the Ice Age, and that there was some ancient
connection between it and the Nile River. But at some point a canal was
actually built, and that canal is to the south of Perrara. What they
what what I believe Amanaan had had started. I think he was the first
was to develop the northeastern part of the of the Fiom and in order to
do that, he needed to get water there. So this other canal was
dug, but it originally went around Herrara and went to the north, so
it kind of went around what would have been the guestimate of where the labyrinth
was. But what happened subsequently is that it filled with silt and it had
to be rebuilt diverted, and the only option was to put it through the
area of the labyrinth. Whether or not they they knew what was there at
the time is you know, who knows, But clearly they had a need
to keep you know, because people needed water and you know, there were
farms and settlements to the north and they needed the water. So that was
that that had priority. We're going to take a short commercial break and give
our sponsors a chance to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my
guest today, doctor Mark Carlotto, discuss seeing the Unknown Labyrinth of Egypt.
We'll be right back. I guess today is doctor Mark Carlato, who is
an image specialist, and Mark has followed up on the writings of Herodotus,
a Greek historian, and later the excavations carried out by Flanders Petrie, who
was considered the father of Egyptology in the eighteen hundreds. What Mark has come
up with is evidence for an underground labyrinth that is tens of thousands of years
old. These photographs, these images are fascinating. I wonder if if you
had a piece of technology, or maybe you had to write a software application
for it, would there be a way to see more in depth quality of
these of these scans that you're showing from the Sentinel. Yeah, so okay,
So so Sentinel is it was is that's one radar, and that's that's
called full polarization, which it sends vertical and horizontal and receives both vertical and
horizontal. And you can figure out you can so you can do all four,
and from doing all four you can actually begin to tell stuff about the
surface, physical properties of the surface. Okay, And that's what's really cool
about Star is that with full polar metric Star you can back up physical properties
of the surface. That's not just a picture. But I just had access
to the V, V and v H, not all all four. Another
another another sensor I I found. It was called after I wrote this article
in the paper, and it did a more detailed paper and the link to
that is on the website. Okay, And what I what I what I
was able to find was a a second uh source of star imagery, which
is the Japanese a los pal palsar, which is a it's it's it's L
band, which is which is the same band. See star star has C
band, L band uh x band uh and that refers to the wavelength.
So the sentinel was C band and C band can doesn't penetrate that far,
but L band can actually penetrate further into the surface. And I thought,
oh, this is great. So now I have two different sources of information
and I and I correlated, and I registered them and I put them together.
And that's what the second paper does. And if you scroll down to
the pictures, all the all the illustrations that are at the end, there's
some information that's repeated from the earlier paper. But what I get much more
into detail into the analysis of the labyrinth. Well, it so figure it's
figure nine and it's so it's the false color image of the C band star
which is BB and bh polarization. That's the sentinel, and then the alice
palsar L band star which is hh and HV so two different polarizations and then
I put actually put them together using a data fusion technique based on something called
principal components analysis, and you can you can see clearly the structure standing out
at the bottom there, and so what you know, So one question when
I was showing this around of people, they said, well can you And
this is what I always tell people. You find something in one image,
find find another image to corroborate it. So I did. I not not
only is it it's it's it's it's another story image, but it's actually a
different at a different wavelength and a different sensor, so that's you know,
totally independent, and it doesn't show it as clearly, but it's it's certainly
there, and there's information that's correlated because that comes through the principal component's analysis,
which actually does a correlation analysis. And so that was the first thing
that I thought, Oh, this is interesting, and you know, like
you asked, there's there's many more images out there, and presumably we could
we could look at those. It's probably going to show the same thing because
I don't think the labyrinth has changed much for thousands of years, unlike an
active volcano. So there's not a whole lot you can probably get with that,
But if we had some higher resolutions SAR imagery, it might show more
and you know sources that I don't I don't know. I mean you have
to distinctly adjust the I want to just say, aperture or the software in
the in the satellite so that it penetrates the ground in a certain way to
pick up thing. I mean, it's probably what you're getting most of is
a general geological survey rather than anything that's distinct that's passing through deeper levels or
looking for walls or yeah, no, clip that's that's I'm glad you asked
that question because what people then, you know, said to me is like,
Okay, you've detected something here, but how do you know it's not
on the surface, and you know there's a lot of debris there. You
know, maybe you're just picking up that that debris that's at the surface.
Right. So I thought, okay, let me let me do an a
experiment. And this is this is kind of the stuff I do for a
living. If you have two different modalities, you have visible light and you
have radio waves of radar, uh, they're they're seeing different things. So
if if you're if if if you know, when you look at the visible
image, you can see debris, you can see stuff at the surface.
So the question is is that what the star is picking up? Well,
you can do an experiment where you try to predict what the star should look
like based on the visible imagery. It's it's called the predictive analysis or image
estimation. And you know, I wrote some papers on this back a few
years ago, and I used this in my day job. So I get
paid to do this kind of stuff as opposed to this, I don't get
paid to do this. In fact, this is uh, who's a lot
of time and money during this research? But hey, is it the application
or the the labor. It's a labor of love. Anyway, I digress.
My point is that you can predict what the sar image should look like
from the visible and if there's correlated if they're both seeing the same thing,
it should the visible image should do a pretty good job of predicting what the
star image looks like. And so if you scroll down to figure eleven,
and this is getting a little bit in the weeds, but what I do
is I say, oh, here's a visible image here's the star image.
Here's what the saramage should look like based on the visible image. And let
me subtract the two, the SAR and the predicteds are and what you get
out is the stuff that you can't predict, in other words, the stuff
that's not correlated, the stuff that's in the SAR that's not in the visible.
And my contention is that what's in the SAR that's not in the visible,
these uncorrelated hits are the things that are underground, because the visible doesn't
see underground. The star seeds above ground and below ground. So what the
shows in red are the areas that have higher backscatter because something is underground.
Wow. So this was my attempt based on some preliminary discussions and you know,
critiques I had just talking to some people. It's like, yeah,
I should try this, and you know, have you looked at this?
And it's like, okay, I spent I did sort of, I circled
around, I spent a little bit more time, and I did this and
so this is out there and I actually have some people evaluating this work,
so we'll see what where it goes. What do you think I mean,
we don't hear about labyrinths in Egypt. It's weird that there isn't more interest
by the antiquities group to look at this. I think that they're afraid that
they might open a can of worms if they dig into that area, which
has been going on for decades. We have the same problem when it comes
to the Pyramid, we have the same problem when it comes to the Sphinx.
They're still stuck one hundred years in the past and this is their philosophy.
But what is your opinion on this labyrinth and why it is not more
Willey known by the general public. I mean, this would be a great
article for National Geographic. Yeah, this would be something that the Smithsonian would
would benefit by having. God, the interest would be huge, you would
think, right, I think, Uh, you know, a couple of
reasons that we've touched on. You go there and you you know, I've
seen I haven't been there physically, but I've seen a lot of videos and
there's really not much to see, right. Yeah, it's not a tourist
visit at all. And it's not it's not on the tourist it's not on
the on the tour routes. It's you know, it's it's west of the
Nile By. I don't know what is it fifty kilometers, I don't know,
something like that. So I mean, you're not you know, the
cruise ship. I took a you know, I took a cruise and you're
stopping all these sides. It was great, you're not going. You're not
going to see the labyrinth on that cruise. Yeah, it's not in the
middle. It's kind of out in the middle. It's south of Cairo By.
I don't know. It looks like ten miles, but I could be
wrong. Yeah, it's not a big stop. So you're saying that because
it's not a visible place. It hasn't been excavated. Of course, it's
a very poor country. They don't have the funds that It's just a nice
thought that Herodotus published, that Peachri published extensively, that you've picked up on
and that others have picked up on. But the truth of the matter is
there's no way that we know if it's physically visible anymore, because it's ancient
and we don't know how to hell the access it. Dewey, Well,
you know, I think there's a mystery there, and I think clearly there's
something smoldering. You know, it's like we you know, we've talked about
the previous expeditions and groups, and you know this is you know, this
is just I'm alone wolf on this one. Because you can do a lot
with satellite imagery, but it's got to be anything. This could actually be
corroborated very specifically. Taking this result, you could, if you had the
means and the funding, you could go there and based on this, I
can tell you where the edges are. I can say, okay, if
you poke around, if you go here, you can hit the labyrinth.
If you go here, it's the outside the bound So we can start to
corroborate it based on ground penetrating. You know these sleds that they pull around,
so you don't have to cover the whole two hundred and seventy five,
which actually it's more than two seventy five, because that's only part of the
area under below south of the pyramid, the mud pyramid, it's probably twice
that, you know, five hundred thousand square feet. It's a lot of
area. So this this really gives you the ability to sort of focus in
on where the key areas are and if you could corroborate that yes there's something
there. You dig in from from the canal. The canal is already down,
you know, twenty or thirty feet, so all you have to do
is sort of dig ino, you know, dig to the eastern to the
west. And because I believe this is you know, parts of the of
the labyrinth on either side and again references to what the original you know,
when when the canal is built, people you know, people have done histories
on the waterways in this part of the world. You know, people right
about anything and everything, and so you just have to dig and you find
you know, what's known about this area and you realize, ah, this
this this canal was not original. This did not originally go through the area
is built later on. And so by dissecting this feature, this labyrinth,
it it actually made both The bad news is that it's you know, the
water tables being higher now because of this, it could be causing you know,
degradation. But it all so it could be a way in. Yeah,
by cutting it in half, it's going to be easier to get in
rather than having to dig down. You can come in at it from the
side without maybe spending a lot of money. And again using this as sort
of a predictive tool to say, go here, go here, go there.
You're you're not walking around in the dark. You can you can be
very focused about it. So let me ask you a questions that I want
to move on to the colossa here in a second. But did Petrie excavate
enough sand to get to the roof of the labyrinth? Or was his speculation
that the surface connected with the original was the first layer a ground layer,
and then from the surface you access the labyrinth from the middle, from the
sides or whatever? Did he speculate Did he come up with any ideas?
No, No, this was purely I think just you know, practically,
you know, he he documented what he saw, Yeah, and you know
that was that. And then that's what's so great about his work is that
his measurements are so precise and so meticulous. You know, in regards to
the pyramids, you know the alignments and so forth. Here it's a little
different what he did. But you know, I don't think, you know,
I don't think he was speculating on underground and you know, I think
who knows. I mean, I you have to read it in between the
lines to figure that out. Okay, Uh, there's a lot to still
obviously look at. Somebody needs to throw a few million bucks there. This
is not a solution light Ar will deal with, because light Ar is not
going to help at all, right right, I think I think it's one
of these things where you you're you're smart to pick a corner of the labyrinth
and dig down one specific area and see what you find. See and again
this this let me point out if it's not obvious, this imagery has been
registered to Google Earth, which you know I use for everything. Yeah,
I think I use Google Google Earth more than my refrigerator. I mean it's
yeah, Well, why are you saying that, because you're you would be
concerned that you would be attacked by the Antiquities Department for for oh no,
satellite imagery. No, No. What I'm saying is that once you get
it registered to Google Earth, it's a it's a geographic base, so you
have latitude and longitude. I hear you. And I've actually set this imagery
out for evaluation and I provided all this and I haven't heard back, and
we'll see where it goes. And I don't want to talk about I don't
want to mention who's looking at it because it's it's in process. But you
know, if if you're looking at a pixel here versus here in Google Earth,
if you just move the curse and it gives you a latitude and longitude.
So I mean there's gonna be some error. Of course, it's not
for sise, but it's going to get your clothes. So you take your
GPS on the ground and you walk to that spot. So it's it's telling
you literally where to look. So it's not that I'm going to get into
trouble. Okay. And so you're not giving us names because of you don't
want to identify the players, but you're saying there's interest, h a private
industry interest of some kind or universe university is looking at some of the results.
Well that's that's so amazing. Okay. Hey, let's let's uh uh
For those of you listening, this is doctor Mark Carlotto I'm speaking with,
and we're talking about this uh Hawara labyrinth in Egypt that has confounded people since
Herodotus wrote about it. And here we have the father of Egyptology, Flinders
Petrie, spending a great deal at time. It looks like he spent months
there, perhaps years there surveying and excavating as much as he could, with
probably the hopes. Do you believe reading his paper that he had a hope
to find the entrance way underneath the surface. No, I don't. I
don't think so. I think it was I think it was the past.
You know, he he was there, and he he was there a couple
of different times. And uh, you know, that wasn't the only thing
he surveyed in the area. The other thing I read about in the in
the paper is the colossi, the what are called the pedestals of Biomo.
She had, you know, he had something to say about that which actually
conflicts, I think quite a bit with what Herodotus said. So I think,
you know, Petrie's description, what Petris Petrie excavated and what Herodus is
described are fairly consistent. I think in summary, Petrie excavated the above above
grind on portion and thought that he hit you know, he's dealing with a
foundation, whereas it's possible that instead he was actually dealing with the roof of
a structure below ground that's still intact. He didn't, you know, that
wasn't something that was said. He pursued. That's something that's that's a hypothesis
that actually has been explored further. You know now that we have ground penetrating
radar and other technologies in these other more recent expeditions that we talked about,
So there's a lot of interest in that now. So this is sort of
the latest chapter. And yeah, I think you know one that we we
should be able to if there's if there's desire, and if politically it can
be worked out. The technology certainly can can give us an answer. It's
not beyond the realm of the knowable. We can we can, we can
figure this out. Yeah, it's it's the problem. The problem is you
have a government that doesn't want you to find out you're right. It might
it might. It might actually be easier to drain a Locke to find on
the lock Nest monster than to the egypt The Egyptian I don't know. I
don't know, I don't know anything about that. It's it's confounding. We
deal with the same issue in Mexico when it comes to excavations of sites these
it's here we are, this Western culture. We have all this technology,
and we're limited in what we can apply simply because landowner owners current landowners are
not receptive to that kind of what they believe is an invasion of their privacy.
So yeah, it's a challenge. Hey, let's talk about these pedestals
of its Bayimu and it's Herodotus goes on to describe what he saw north of
the labyrinth, and let's talk about that, because according to this illustration that
you found, there were pretty good sized megalithic statues. It looks like you
call them colossi. Well so so so Herodotus talks about these these pyramids,
these pyramids in the middle of a lake, and on the top of these
pyramids are these are these enormous figures And so you got that description, and
he was he was impressed by what he saw there. He was impressed by
what he saw at the labyrinth. And clearly the scale of the labyrinth based
on what Petrie excavated. And you know what we found in the in the
star data is it's it's there's something big there. There's something big that's still
there, and there was Herodotus probably saw something, you know, large and
very impressive. Uh at Howara, what did he see? Uh? North
of there at Bayamu seems equally you know, incredible by his description. Yet
when Petrie goes there, he finds something that's less than remarkable. And that's
you know, those are the drawings that we see. I looked at them
from from his book mainly just to give the the dimensions they're you know,
they're fairly they're fairly modest structures. And let me thus three, these pyramids
are one hundred fathoms high, and one hundred fathoms equal a furlong of six
hundred feet, So you know, we're talking about something that's six hundred feet,
let's say, and what p Tree draws something that's thirty feet. So
you know, my point is that there's there's you know, discrepancy of a
factor of two, Okay, not a big deal, but an order of
magnitude, a factor of ten or more. It's like, wait, why
is there such a huge difference between what Petrie found there and what hera Autus
wrote about. And my my conjecture, I don't really have any evidence to
back it up, is that that, you know, it was sort of
the similar thing that we see in other places. There was actually at one
time something grand there, but it was over time dismantled as the lake you
know, as the lake level fell, as it continued to do as if
I AM dried up and it needed more water for irrigation and crops and so
forth, material was was reused and repurposed like we find everywhere else. And
so what you know Petrie found is just you know, really a faint whisper
of you know, what existed once before. But where do you go with
that? I mean, as this, I don't I don't know how to
follow that up. That's why it's just sort of more conjectural than anything else.
But you know, it's interesting because you have Petries account, and Pat's
account of the labyrinth is being you know, fairly consistent at least concerning the
above ground part. But then the you know, the these colosside, the
pedestals, pedestals are it's like, wait, they seem to be describing two
different things. So it sort of makes Money's the water a little bit and
trying to understand you know, what historically we know and perhaps what we can
discover. Maybe we can also use sensing technology to see if as anything in
that area that shows up you know, below ground, although you know it
sort actually see an alband actually work in dry desert sands. So if you're
dealing with land that's irrigated with water, it doesn't see it's it's it's opaque.
Interesting, you can't see through water. This has been fun talking to
you as we conclude. What is your feeling about this area? I mean,
I am not have not been there, and it looks like it could
be farming the area. And this is the issue we had whenever we're dealing
with ancient structures. This site perhaps is you know, tens of thousand,
thands of years old and has had multiple generations of cultures prior to the dynastics,
perhaps settling, resettling, resettling, moving off and on. But I
think you've made an important contribution to this area. I just don't know fay
at all. Is it is it been converted to because fames where these places
are, this labyrinth and these calasti. Is there is this farming land?
Now? Is that what the youre look like? Yeah? Yeah, so
that's why this you know, that's why these canals they bring in water from
the Nile Okay, And that's why you know, I think this canal was
dug through the labyrinth. It was for water, it was for people to
live, you know, survive economics. Uh so it had a plausible reason
for having been done. Again, the history is interesting and it's in the
paper I go. I found a number of interesting sources that talk about how
kind of how the landscape changed. But you know, I wanted to kind
of circle back because you asked me, you're talking about, you know,
certain get into the subject dating things and how all these things might be.
We talked about it in the outset, and you know, I think we
are our sense, our intuition is anything that's deep is going to be old,
and deeper it is the older is going to be And you know,
dating things ad buyased by the stratigraphic analysis is you know, that's used standard
tool in archaeology. But what I discovered, and this is what sort of
was totally unexpected. It was sort of unexpected to find the labyrinth and then
finding that the labyrinth was actually aligned to one of the ancient polls in before
Atlantis actually gives gives me a date. I'm very quiet, I'm waiting for
you to bit it out. You want to know the date, Yes,
between seventy five, one thousand and one hundred and thirty thousand years old.
So that would be the last poll, wouldn't it so? Okay, So
in before Atlantis, I talked about four previous poles. Okay, the one
before this one was the Hudson Bay Pole, and that was the pole of
the ice age. At that time, Western Antarctica was ice free. At
that time, Siberia was ice free, and the mammoths lived in a temperate
climate in northern Siberia. And I can go on and on because every time
the poll ship the climate changes. Before Hudson Bay was the Norwegian Sea and
that was fifty thousand years ago, forty five, fifty thousand years ago.
And before that was Greenland Pole. And things that are aligned to the Greenland
Pole include Ballbeck, the oldest foundations, the oldest foundations in Jerusalem at Western
Wall, the the Parthenon, basically the plan, the street land of Mexico
City, which is all centered around Templo Mayr that that complex. Oh it
goes that far back. Okay, So these are these are This is an
alignment you find throughout the world. Also, Pulapuku all point to the same
pole, and this is the same pole that the Labyrinth appears to be aligned
to. I'm sorry, seventy five thousand to one hundred and twenty three thousand.
You said one hundred and thirty, one hundred and thirty. I give
her take a few thousand. We're almost at our time here. Let's talk
about that for a minute. Have you corresponded with build Reps at all on
his analysis of antiquity and North Pole alignments, because he's got he's got a
graphic and I can't remember. I haven't had him on for over a year,
but I mean he goes way back, he goes the first or the
fifth shift is four hundred thousand years, and then he comes down and then
he comes down to where you are, and I can't remember the numbers.
Yeah, I haven't talked. I haven't talked to him, but you know
what he shows is is that how the poles, as the pole moves and
it for him, the pole is moving sort of in a continuous fashion.
And over time as the poll shifted, the you know, the sites you
know were aligned and the directions changed. What's different is in before Atlantis.
This this hypothesis is based on four catastrophic sudden shifts of the polestrophic Okay,
and ended a previous age started a New Age, if you will, the
new North Pole. And also it assumes that sites are not just aligned cardinally,
but also you know, as we do today, we align things to
the Moon and the Sun. We have lunar temples, we have places like
don't Edge that you know have solar alignments and things like that. And my
hypothesis is that this has been a practice throughout history on this planet, and
during previous ages when the poll was in different positions, all these alignment directions
to the Sun and Moon were different in terms of geographical directions. And so
I've found, you know, in Beyond Atlantis, I have over five hundred
sites that I talk about in that book. It's it's like that thick and
and no one is buying it because it's expensive. Amazon has raised prices and
they're just killing me. And but that, I mean, there's the evidence
is in. There's just a huge amount of evidence. And what's you know,
what's interesting is that this, uh, this work has been confirmed independently
by another an author and researcher by the name of Mark Gaffney. I think
Mark has been I think you've talked to Mark. He's done analysis, he's
looked at climate data, sort of what happened was doing back in the fifties,
but using more modern data sources and methods and has found just keeps finding
more and more climate data to support this chronology of pull shifts. And in
fact it's his data that I've used to actually time when these pole, when
these poles occurred, when they over what periods they were different at different times,
because it's it's actually correlated with climate changes in different parts of the world
based on you know, using different types of dating techniques for you know,
for fossil remains of mammals and so forth, and establishing the aids. You
know, it's like in Great Britain they have you know, they have but
fossil remains of of potamus, you know, which is a subtropical mammal.
There's no way it could exist there today. It's only if it was at
a different latitude. And it's you know, basically predicted by and confirmed by
this by this model. But I mean, I know that's not what we're
talking about here, And that's why, you know, I don't want to
get I don't like to get to sort of spun up over that, because
I think these are all sort of independent things and a lot of stuff that
I've been putting up doing research on is really completely different questions. I don't
go after them looking for more corroboration for people Atlantis. But what I find
here and with the Labyrinth is that it's pointing to one of the ancient polls.
It's like, you know, that's it was totally unexpected. So and
it turns out it's a lot of stuff in the volume that is aligned towards
ancient whole directions. So it suggests that civilization in this part of the world
is vastly more ancient than we think. Yeah, I mean, I have
an intuition regarding these ages, and I'm not a scientist, but I'm really
fascinated that these numbers that you and Bill Refs get. I'm just waiting for
other collaboration to come in and again proving this data, which will completely change
our science. And this is the whole problem that we're dealing with right now.
We're dealing with Egyptologists archaeologists who are using seeing fundamentals that are outdated,
and they are considering anything that's not in the textbook and anomaly and they're not
falling up on it, and we're losing critical data on what our past was
all about. Other civilizations, earlier civilizations, they stop at a certain date.
They won't go beyond one hundred. They think anything beyond a few nine
thousand years old Go Beckley Tepe is hunters and gatherers. And now we're showing
that that the in Mexico Tiwa Khan is most likely tens of thousands of years
old. Egypt, and you know, here's this labyrinth in these colossi,
tens of thousands of years old, and they can't go there. And I
think this is known by the Egyptian authorities and they don't want to touch it.
So well, you know, street used to begin at Sumer and now
it begins at go Beckley Tepe. And and in ten years it may begin
twenty thousand years or fifty thousand years ago somewhere else. Yeah, exactly.
Hey, Mark, A pleasure is always for those of you listening. You
can read all about Mark's work at his website before Atlantis dot com. Mark,
do you have any other you have a social media page? I think
you have a before Atlantis on the Facebook. What else you got, Yeah,
it's it's mainly the blog. That's that's where all the articles are and
links to papers, and you can get everything you need to know there.
And when you say blog, you're talking about before Atlantis dot com the post
post s it's. Yeah. So it's a website that I every every once
in a while, I'll write a new article that's based on sort of summarized
the research I've been doing, and it's you know, I've had a few
since the Labyrinth that that are up there, but you know they go back
for probably six I think about six years now. Yeah, exactly. It's
excellent market pleasure is always thanks for having me clip shares, appreciate it,
take care. Always good to have Mark on the program. If you heard
him talk about his access to these satellite images, you can hear that he's
trying to stay away of having issues with the Antiquities Department of the Egypt's Archaeological
Group or Egypto Logical Group. And this is exactly what Faoni and Malanga did
in requisitioning a European Space Agency satellite that had the Stars technology on it.
I don't know how they went about aligning it for their exact use, and
it sounds like they had somebody at the Space Agency working with them. And
they requisition this satellite, had specific alignments processed through the satellite and as it
was scanning the Kufu pyramid, they were able to get the data back and
then have it interpreted and this is where you get that three D model.
That's just mind blowing. But they make no bones about it. They basically
are like, we're not dealing with the Antiquities Department. We have no interest
in dealing with their program because they are they're challenged, they're extremely challenged,
and it's like working with somebody who's a child. And I hear about this
constantly. It's not professional, it's not It's a real problem, and it
continues to be a problem. It's been a problem for decades. It goes
if you go way back to Robert Schock's drilling down to do sample work on
the front paw of the Sphinx. That was a problem and it continues to
be a problem. And I don't know it's if it's all about money.
I doubt it, because that the German Institute is excavating Elephantine Island in Egypt
and they've been there for decades, or is it the fact that there is
I don't know. I don't know what to say about it, but it's
a problem. It's a problem in Mexico as well. There are huge areas
and I always give this example. If you go to northern Yucatan, the
most one of the most gorgeous cities is Ushmohl ux m a l Ushmohl,
and there's the Pyramid of the Magician, which is just gorgeous. It's one
of the most beautiful music pyramids in the world. But less than a quarter
a mile away is a huge pyramid that's been unexcavated, untouched for for decades.
They know about it. If they were to excavate it, it would
be it would be at a ground breaking event. And I think even doctor
Ed said this that, you know, the government, I don't know if
it's they don't have the money, they don't want to deal with, you
know, any new revelations or what. It's just a problem and you just
have to just live with it. But it's really frustrating because, as an
example, there's been a number of light our scans done on the coast of
Mexico. There's been light our scans done in Campeche in just a number of
different cities that reveal multiple odes, which are the sockbes leading to cities never
before seen cities. We will occasionally hear about these discoveries through archaeological revelations,
but they won't they can't touch them. This is the same thing that's happening
in Guatemala where Richard Hansen's excavating Elmador, and they did this scan of the
biosphere of the jungle area just north of him Elmiador, and they found sixty
thousand unknown ruins, cities, pyramids, civics area. I mean, something
that they're never they're never going to get to. There's just no money.
So I don't know, you know, it's it's curious because you have to
wonder how does this work? Does somebody I guess how it works. If
somebody writes a paper, gets endowments from local universities and government, rarely government,
mostly universities and the educational systems, they don't have any money. What
it should fall to is people like Elon musk know, or some tech millionaire
billionaire who can throw a few million at a project, pay off the Mexican
or the Egyptian government, and just go to work. It would have to
be supported by a university, though you just can't go in there as a
tech, as a techie and go, hey, I'm going to excavate a
pyramid. I would love that. Oh my god. Can you imagine some
of the Maybe somebody from Google or Yahoo or somebody gets in there and says,
okay, here's a million bucks. I want the ability to scan this
area and where we find something that's unique, like a new pyramid, we
would like permission to excavate. That would be great. It have to be
supported by a neighboring university. But oh my god, why doesn't that happen
more often? I'm serious. If I had if I won the lottery and
I say I had, say I won fifty million, I take a couple
of million and go down to Mexico and go, okay, I want to
excavate this pyramid, especially the one at Ushmol, because I've seen I've seen
it. Actually you can see it. As you're standing on the Great Pyramid.
There's there's this one pyramid that's partially excavated. It's called the Great Pyramid,
and it's so tall, it's like three hundred and fifty feet in the
air that you can see this other pyramid. You can see a lot of
other things too. During the summertime, you can see a lot of very
cool buildings. There's a series of buildings next to this pyramid that are exactly
designed, exactly like the pyramid structures that we see at Mount Albon in Wahaka,
and I've taken a few pictures of them. So there are so much
to discover, so much to uncover, and all it is is money and
more vision from these departments. So anyhow, it's great to have Mark on
the program. Look for the gallery, I'm gonna put up two galleries.
The first gallery is going to be a historic look at the labyrinth through the
eyes of Petrie Flinders. Petrie and also Herodotus will have some images that are
passed down from him and we'll show what Mark has found. And then the
second gallery is the details from this article Hawara Pyramid and the Labyrinth and what
we see today, which is not a great deal. It's pretty it's pretty
dilapidated. There's not a hell of a lot there's it's in huge disrepair,
major disrepair. So fun to have Mark on the program. Hey, guess
what's coming up holidays is Thanksgiving shortly in about a month and a little more
than a month, and then there's Christmas and this is a time forgiving.
And I tell people every year get on an Earth Ancients tour. You'll love
it. It's reasonably priced. All you gotta do is get to either Egypt
in April or Turkey if you want to join us for the Turkey tour,
which is going to be in August of twenty twenty four. These are wonderful
tours. They're all encompassing, all inclusive, meaning all your food, your
travel, your beverages, your access to all these sites are covered. Check
it out. What a gift to give yourself. You know, you're giving
your gift. You're giving gifts to your parents, to your loved ones,
to your kids, to your friends. Give yourself the gift of a lifetime
and join us in Egypt April twenty eighth through May ninth, twenty twenty four.
We all meet in Cairo. It is any I mean, you can
hear people who we have on the program talk about it. It is a
world class tour. It's just and it's relaxing. It's startling because you can't
believe the size of these pyramids and the beauty of these temples. Come out
and join us. For more information, go to earth Ancients dot com,
forward slash Tours and check it out. Now that's part one. Now part
two is we're gonna be in Turkey. We're almost full. We got thirty
people right now that are already registered and we don't even have our page up
yet. We're still working on it. Just got the itinerary. It's mind
blowing. We're talking go Backly Teppi Carahan, Teppi, Darren Kuru, Cappadocia,
all those underground cities, the museums, the statuary. It's just gonna
be a blast. I haven't been there and so I'm really excited about going.
It's gonna be mid August twenty twenty four. If you would like to
join us, this is what I'm having people do. Send an email.
Send an email to earth Ancients the number four the letter you at gmail dot
com and say Cliff, send me the itinerary and by the way, put
me on your list. Reserve a space for me. You know, I'll
do it. It is it's ten days, it's intense sites and it is
a whole education that I'm looking forward to. So for more information, go
to earth Ancients dot com, Forward Slash Tours for the Egyptian tour, and
if you want more information about the Turkey tour, go to Earth. Go
to Earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com. That's it. We're making
other announcements too. We're gonna try to do at least one trip to unique
Mexico. I'm not sure where we're going. I'm thinking of of the Yucatan
because we haven't been up there in over a year. It's been a couple
of years. But we may go to some other areas that include Mexico City,
which means you get a chance to go to the world class anthropological museum.
It's just mind blowing. So check it out, see what's going on,
and join us if you can. All right, that's it for today.
I want to thank my guest today, doctor Mark Carlotto and his revelations
on this Hawara Labyrinth. As always the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark Foster
and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock, you really do.
All right, take care of be well and we will talk to you
next time. Past basic