WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.880 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, I'm joined 2 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:18.079 by John Dorsey of the Superhuman Public Radio podcast, one of my absolute favorites. 3 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:22.239 We've had him and Max Clark on before his guests, and we did 4 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:26.079 a lot of work together. Actually on season two was someone who talked to 5 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.000 them a little bit about some of the great issues they explored. We had 6 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:32.039 them on al ready to talk about season two as a whole, but today 7 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:36.240 we wanted to get back together to talk about issues of disability, issues of 8 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:41.200 disability and representation and how these stories get told, especially when you're telling them 9 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.640 as people who aren't necessarily part of the groups that you're talking about. So 10 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:49.840 John, Hello and welcome. Hello, and thanks for having me our pleasure, 11 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.759 Our pleasure. I'll say, for those who are watching on video, 12 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:57.600 I'm still working on my laptop. Apologies. Hopefully by the next time we 13 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.719 record, I'll be back on my desktop, just having some computer trouble. 14 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.159 Also, Maximilian Clark maybe joining us later, but John and I will certainly 15 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:07.640 have a lot to talk about. So John, first of all, just 16 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.359 for those who maybe haven't heard you before, haven't checked it out, what 17 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:18.799 is Superhuman Public Radio? Yeah, so Superhuman Public Radio, or as we 18 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:25.239 like to call it in show, SPR is a parody of NPR and a 19 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:34.879 world of where superheroes are central to American politics and life. And you know, 20 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:42.000 if if you're fans of shows like Welcome to night Vale or you know, 21 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:46.840 hell, I should have all of these in front of me when I'm 22 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:53.920 talking about the show. It's a fun comedy program, and I'll tell you, 23 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.519 yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. And I remember the first time 24 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:02.719 I had you on, I accidentally titled the show Superhero Public Radio and you 25 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:07.239 all corrected me that it's Superhuman Public Radio. Talk a little bit more about 26 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:08.400 that, because I think it's one of the mos interesting things is, as 27 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:12.639 you said, they're definitely our heroes, they're definitely our villains, but a 28 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:14.960 lot of it's just about the fact that we just have a lot of people 29 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:20.479 who are superpowered in this world. Yeah, well, you know it's it's 30 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:27.280 me and Max. When we were developing the show and we knew the you 31 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:34.879 know, the initial pitch on the show was a superhero themed NPR and we 32 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.840 had a lot of discussions about where that would come from and what the show 33 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:44.560 would look like, and we made the active choice to make it superhuman because 34 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:51.680 not every episode is going to deal with superhumans or with superheroes. Like, 35 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.800 you know, people may have superpowers, but they might be an accountant or 36 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:02.000 just a firefighter, right Like, they're not Spider Man, They're not Superman. 37 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.800 And it was a way to really it was a way to make our 38 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:14.960 world a lot bigger and allow us to tackle not only superheroes stories, but 39 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:22.319 then you know, what is the guy who catches on fire but you know, 40 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:28.039 work in a second hand store, Like what is his life full thing? 41 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.520 You know, every time I watch these shows and movies about superheroes and 42 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.280 super villains, that is one thing that we start talking about, especially because 43 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:40.400 now as you know we're talking about off air, we are really quite saturated 44 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:44.400 with those kind of stories. You know, it's fun to get into questions 45 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:47.520 like you know, what is life insurance and property insurance? Like in places 46 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.479 where all the stuff is happening. And I love how your show really is 47 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:54.439 exploring that. It's you know, you are telling a narrative, and the 48 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:59.240 narrative is quite interesting and certainly take some twists and turns. I'm not less 49 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:01.719 going to spoil here, but I think that alone makes the show worth checking 50 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.199 out. But you just, guys do so much of that world building of 51 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:10.360 exploring these questions of Okay, in a world where all these people have powers 52 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:15.480 but not everyone, how is that going to change day daily life? Yeah, 53 00:04:15.519 --> 00:04:23.839 And you know it's the really what you're talking about of you're watching something 54 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:30.399 and those questions pop up. You know that that's that's that's the show that 55 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:36.120 it was our way to deal with that, especially as I get older. 56 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:42.360 Before we hopped on, we were just kind of talking about being older nerds 57 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:47.759 and you know, kind of having a little bit of a little bit of 58 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:55.160 chagrin about where superhero media and a lot of nerd media are these days. 59 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:02.000 The things that I'm attracted to are the stories that deal with superheroes and and 60 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:08.319 you know, genre elements, but then are outside of the hero's journey. 61 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:16.519 They're outside of the tales of heroism and are not necessarily and are are stories 62 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:24.519 of normal life right through a fantastic lens, right. And I think like 63 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.040 many of the best of the superhero comics and superhero TV shows and movies, 64 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.360 you guys also certainly are writing a lot of things where if you look a 65 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.240 little bit between the lines or sometimes don't even have to look that far. 66 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.480 The parallels like you're making commentary about our own world and dynamics in our own 67 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.920 world. That that are pretty like, you know, in the same way 68 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:53.399 that Captain America punching Hitler was. Yeah, well, being based on you 69 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.360 know, the show. The show isn't a one to one parody. Max, 70 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:03.000 who is our series director and also co writer and is joining us right 71 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:11.319 now, will let you know that, Uh, we don't try to do 72 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.879 one to one parodies of any anything, but and Max, Max hates parodies. 73 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:26.439 But he that's fair, that's fair. But but that's but that's part 74 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.720 of the show. I hate. It's okay if we're going to make fun 75 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.000 of I it's not enough to make fun of it. Why are we merit? 76 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:40.279 What? Why is this funny? Why is this weird? Why is 77 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:49.920 this scary? Or whatever? We try to take it a step further mm 78 00:06:50.000 --> 00:07:00.360 hmmm, right. Yeah. For me, the only reason I don't like 79 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.319 working in parody is I find it limiting, like when you're when you're doing 80 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:06.839 a parody, you have to get a lot of things right about it, 81 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:13.800 and you can't have real characters like Frank Dreben only has so much agency. 82 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.639 It's a sentier. He's the protagonist in The Naked Gun because he's the classic 83 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.720 hard boiled detective and like, there's only so much movement, so he doesn't 84 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:25.959 get to be a complete character, which works because people like you. Yeah, 85 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.959 I mean, I don't think that you're you're not parody but exactly. 86 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:33.439 But to me, in the kind of science, that line between we have 87 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:38.279 to have real realms means they have Let's take a problem in our own world 88 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.680 and place it in this very different kind of world, maybe to offer some 89 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.920 answers, maybe just to say, how does this change your feelings on the 90 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:47.519 question? My answer by looking at it in a new way. And that's 91 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:51.680 not about parody. That's just about how can we tell an interesting story that 92 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.000 is about people fundamentally different to the audience but still has enough the audience to 93 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.959 relate to and say, oh, okay, I don't have the superpower, 94 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:09.560 but I understand the problem that that guy has. Yeah, we're pretty reference 95 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:15.360 happy. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, well said you jumped down. 96 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.439 We do a lot of click introduction reference you do a lot. Yeah, 97 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.759 yeah, you get a lot of mileage. I have a good reference. 98 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.320 Oh yeah, absolutely, Hi, everyone I'm Maximilian Clark on SBR. 99 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:37.919 I am the director and editor, set designer and co writer a lot of 100 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.519 hats and otherwise I you don't do a lot of directeame writing for various things. 101 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:48.440 I'm also a h You're there to observe and masself and and comment on 102 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:58.200 from the other perspective all my time in you non and Trump rallies. Yes, 103 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.639 I don't think any of my audiences. I'm not there because I wanted 104 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.480 to make make that except controlled by Obama from his base is a real thing, 105 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:13.360 someone has told me. Now, I do want to get into the 106 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:18.519 specific topics for today, but I do have to ask first for all podcast, 107 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:26.279 what does a set designer do a set designer? I thought you said 108 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:28.799 you were a set designer as part of what you did for Oh okay, 109 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:35.559 that makes much more sense, you understand, Yeah, honestly truly, yeah, 110 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.200 sound designer. Well, actually, you know what kind of the same 111 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:48.240 thing right when you think about it, right, because one of the big 112 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.600 things in sound design is trying to feel like, okay, giving the audience 113 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:05.720 somewhere category to nominate you for so as part of an understanding properly so yeah, 114 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:11.320 yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, saved it. There we go, 115 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.559 There we go. I will absolutely win. You want a bunch of time 116 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.519 when you talk about the one nominated. But I know that as part of 117 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.919 the writing process of season two, you guys reached out to a lot of 118 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.320 folks, myself included, to kind of help with do some perspectives that aren't 119 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.720 necessarily your own. And we'll talk specifically about the disability question, but first 120 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:35.240 I just love to hear from you guys. What was that writing process, 121 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.600 like, like, what was the process of you guys deciding like, we 122 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:54.200 need more voices in this room? Well, I mean, if there are 123 00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:00.600 format really lends uh itself to bring in more perspective. It was like we 124 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.600 always wanted our show to feel big, and you know there's a limiting factor 125 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:09.320 with Jack and I being a couple of white dudes behind it. And we 126 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:16.279 brought on four or five writers this year, and I think that we're intending 127 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.360 to bring on even more next year for the same reason. Just like you 128 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:24.000 know, stories are sort of born of your own perspective in life, and 129 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:30.679 you know to give yourself that well, it's just variety. My favoritely like 130 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.360 make a world feel key of writing out of season two came out of another 131 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:41.039 writer from other folks, and her pitch on what was a fairly boiler plate 132 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:48.519 idea was so so awesome. And then the the yeah, the Devin Connolly 133 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:54.919 one, and that was just purely out of you know, as Max was 134 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.919 saying, like seven, a different different pot. Different pots make different batches. 135 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.360 This is a soup. Yeah, that makes sense. It should be 136 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:09.679 better at metaphors. If I'm a writer, you have a chicken little soup 137 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:11.879 button, you know, I was gonna let the culinary part go and you 138 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:13.960 accept it as a metaphor. So yeah, no, no, no, 139 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.919 because everyone who's made soup that you have different pots every time you make it 140 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:28.559 different Yeah, exactly. I think for glot kosher, uh, you can 141 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.559 relate. But yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like again, 142 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:39.039 you know, it's about greening layers, and obviously we had a pretty strong 143 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:41.919 hand in just making sure that everything fit tonally correct for the show. But 144 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.679 that said that, I think that's something that we actually really want to do 145 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.440 even more next season is allow people to really like come out of us with 146 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.080 unexpected pitches within our framework and just get those voices out there, you know, 147 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:03.399 because the like for a wile it was like very hip in like studios 148 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.480 to say, write what you know. I think there was like a four 149 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:11.159 or five year period where every meeting I ever had on any level with executives 150 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.200 was always like, and why are you the person to tell this story? 151 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.879 And I think that that is and I know where you represent a community, 152 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:26.080 say they did when the county, right, the stories of that community, 153 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.080 especially the one that people expect for anyone's seen in American fiction. It's a 154 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:41.720 great sort of discussion at this point. Yes, yeah, right right, 155 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.559 there's there's all these like stay in your lane comments, and a great writer 156 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:52.120 can write about anything, but they can't do it in their head. And 157 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.600 I think that's where it was born from the idea of like, you can't 158 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.000 just imagine what life would be like for a homeless person and then write a 159 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.240 first person story about a homeless person. It's gonna fall flat, it's not 160 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.679 gonna feel real. So it's about doing the research and having conversations with people 161 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.519 in the community, bringing their voices in their opinions, like really like testing 162 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.200 out like your story and the voices in order to make it feel real, 163 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:22.080 right, And I think that's believer. I think finding one way and then 164 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.360 we'll kind of find a balance and then the next thing to far one way, 165 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:39.679 et cetera. H yeah, exactly, you know, And but the 166 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.200 upside, I mean, this is why we like, we had a segment 167 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.919 on involving disability, and so we wanted to reach out to people with disabilities, 168 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:52.320 and just like because because you don't want to be bad at your job. 169 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:54.559 Essentially, I was gonna say, like, you want to be sensitive, 170 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.799 but no, it's not even about that. You don't want to do 171 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:01.039 a bad job. And if your goal to portray us to talk and you 172 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:07.879 do it poor people from different communities, just about the stuff you're writing and 173 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.879 simple it really is. It's just you have to you have to check well, 174 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.440 especially because and I want to hear more about that process, especially because 175 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.840 I just to be clear, I was one of the people that you all 176 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.279 reach out to about disability, and so I want to talk about that specifically, 177 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.960 which is even on this in more general terms. One of the things 178 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.679 I think that happens the way too easily is people get in a cycle of 179 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.080 thinking, oh, I've watched eight million movies about people from this community, 180 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.399 so I know that community well enough to write it myself without realizing that that 181 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.080 means that once the sort of stereotype gets established in the media, then it 182 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.840 just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of Oh, every story I've seen about black 183 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.120 people has them speaking this way and you know, dealing drugs or doing whatever 184 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:54.879 terrible things. So therefore I know that experience and I can write that kind 185 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:08.960 of a story, right, Yeah, it's the idea that I have seen 186 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.480 some white guy in the seventies write this story. Tell me more about I 187 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.559 talked about writers. And then also you guys did this research of reaching out 188 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.519 and I know when you asked for contacted me about it, one thing you 189 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.240 said is it was something you'd want to talk more about on the podcast. 190 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.879 Talk a little bit more about that that process, and was disability the only 191 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:32.080 issue that you kind of reach out to, and how that whole conversation get 192 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:42.840 started. So the segment that you consulted on was one It was one of 193 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:51.200 my pitches, and it was going to be about an individual who who had 194 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:57.360 the same powers as multiple men and wound up being in charge of essentially the 195 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.279 like the nine to one to one program AM for the super multiple Man. 196 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:07.880 Those weren't as knowledgeable. Oh and multiple man is my favorite mutant and has 197 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:14.359 the ability to duplicate himself and you know, all sorts of shenanigans follow that. 198 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:21.319 And in our world, uh, Ellen, it was Ellen, I 199 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:29.799 should know this character's name, Gladys. I'm sorry, so glad Gladys was 200 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.119 the was this this character's name, you know, has like a psychic connection 201 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:38.319 to all these people, Gladys. And one of the ways that just to 202 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:45.920 just bare face, you know, mile mile high pitch, was to make 203 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:53.839 this this person wheelchair bound of just like you know, why why is this 204 00:17:53.839 --> 00:18:00.920 person being put into this amazing position? Uh? If their power is so 205 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.880 powerful, if they are so powerful, why are they doing this? And 206 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:10.400 it's just oh, they're confined to a chair. And while while I you 207 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.319 know, I wrote something that I was proud of, is just no you 208 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:18.880 know, having no having known you of just well I should talk to somebody 209 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.960 about this, right and it it just purely comes from that. You know, 210 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.000 a lot of the stories that I tend to write on the show, 211 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:32.240 I'm I know, Max is the same. If we write something of you 212 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:37.880 know that deals with a particular type of community or or just even somebody who 213 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.440 has a similar job or the job of of who we're writing will tend to 214 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:47.119 reach out to those those people and say, hey, is this real? 215 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:52.480 Right, because if it even if it sounds true like you were saying, 216 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.440 you know, we've watched so much media we're like, ah, this is 217 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:02.039 this is this is gospel truth. But really it's it's just a story we've 218 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.960 been told. We we need to hear the truth from the people who have 219 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:17.839 lived it, right, That's another that's easy. Yeah. And and the 220 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.119 other thing too is like again us being a couple of white guys, we 221 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:25.599 just we don't want to just tell stories about white guys like essentially right if 222 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.920 like like we we're bored by them, like we've Indiana Jones was great, 223 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.480 perfect, I had a wonderful time. But you know, we don't want 224 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.000 to just talk about like white college professors. And so because we want to 225 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.599 tell these, uh, these stories we don't always have. I mean, 226 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.200 we want to tell stories about every community. We don't necessarily always have writers 227 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:51.839 from American community. Yeah, And I think that's what a lot of it's 228 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.519 about, And that's in spirit. I want to offer a bit of consulting 229 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.279 work. Terms like wheelchair bound or confined to wheelchairs or ones that a lot 230 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:00.440 of the community are kind of moving away from. We tend more like to 231 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.359 say that, you know, someone's a wheelchair user, just in terms of, 232 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.480 you know, because they do get people can do other things outside the 233 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.640 wheelchair, just not move as much. But again, it's like, you 234 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.920 know, before I lost my leg, I probably used the word laying all 235 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:17.559 the time and didn't really even think about why it might bother me until you 236 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.920 know, I I became to sailed with myself. I think these are all 237 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:26.960 words that you know, just yeah, yeah, that's something I'm also trying 238 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:32.160 to get folks to avoid. But that's the story. Oh wait, wait, 239 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:40.200 you mean just like casually like, oh that's lame. Yeah, yeah, 240 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.039 oh yeah, I think it's I mean, you know, I'll be 241 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.240 honest. Growing up as a kid in the eighties, I would say that's 242 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.720 so gay, because that's just the word we all use. I consider myself 243 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.839 by sex. I figured out that I was bisexual, and I still was 244 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.720 using that word, you know, because we just we picked these things up. 245 00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:59.119 But the other point I'm gonna say is I really can relate to what 246 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.279 you're talking about because I think I'm doing the same thing I'm trying to do 247 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.240 more of the same thing as a podcaster. You know. For example, 248 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.240 when the first season of Luke Cage came out, me and my regular co 249 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:12.720 host covered it and it was you know, too white cis masculine presenting person 250 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:19.400 or it was two white masculine presenting people talking about Luke Cage, and we 251 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:23.039 got some feedback that was like, hey, this isn't really you guys don't 252 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.839 really have much to add to this conversation in terms of like you being outsiders 253 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:32.440 to the community of the stories really about. And you know, we thought 254 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.559 about that a lot, and in future seasons, I've always tried to make 255 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:40.160 sure there is someone you know of a community that is that that can better 256 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:44.319 relate to some of the stories that that we comment on not and there's always 257 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:45.319 that danger of, like, you don't want to just tokenize that person. 258 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.640 And that's one thing I really liked about what you guys did with the Gladys 259 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.400 story is because I think one of the things that can happen a lot if 260 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:57.799 you tell stories from people of underserved communities or underrepresented communities is that the only 261 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:03.680 stories you tell are about the reason that they're underrepresented and what I really loved 262 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.599 with the Gladys story is if I remember the first time you introduced her, 263 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.960 her being in a wheelchair didn't even come up. You know, there's so 264 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:22.680 much more to her story mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, like like it 265 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:29.200 takes like probably like five six pages of like getting her story before it goes 266 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.960 into it and it really is. Yeah, I'm glad that that. I'm 267 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.759 glad that that that that that hit uh because because in the review process that 268 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:44.079 was definitely something because like we also wanted it to be like you know, 269 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:49.440 because there's yeah, there's an extra hero stories where someone's disability is actually not 270 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:56.119 a disability, where like Dared Devil's blind but he could see, right, 271 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:02.720 and so yeah, like like double good. Uh. And and I feel 272 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.720 like that that is a uh something that always makes me feel like a little 273 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.480 weird when we stay in stories, and we didn't want to do that with 274 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:18.599 Goddess because I don't think that well, actually, you know, maybe this 275 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:25.359 is better as a question because I you know, but my impression is having 276 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:30.720 some form of disability is an inconvenience, right. I think that's true. 277 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.160 It doesn't have to be defined. And here's also another thing that I know 278 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.400 you guys took an account and I feel like that new once is often no 279 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.119 one person you speak to his frontal research is gonna be able to give you 280 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:45.039 the full range of opinions on that, you know, and within the disability 281 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.400 community, you know, like there are some who like to say differently abled 282 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.839 instead of disabled. I think that's a little bit silly, but that's a 283 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.559 term that some people really like, and some people, I think would object 284 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.559 to the idea that it's the disability that makes it inconvenient. It's the fact 285 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.960 that we live in a world that is built for able bodied people that creates 286 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.839 the inconvenience, you know. And in some cases, like I know, 287 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.640 for example, the deaf community doesn't consider themselves part of the disabled community. 288 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:15.279 Some individual deaf people do, but for the most part they think of that 289 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.759 as a separate thing because in them it is a different understanding of communication, 290 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.240 not a bad one or a broken one by any means. But I think, 291 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.319 yeah, the general term there is very true, and I think that 292 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.880 one of the things that it is really frustrating. Something I talked about a 293 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.079 lot, and a lot of other disability people have talked about, is that, 294 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.880 especially in for a long time. I think I was really nervous to 295 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.279 see a disabled character in either fantasy or science fiction, because so often what 296 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.400 would happen is that either the magic or the science would fix that disability, 297 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.880 you know, and it would be Yeah, I think Daredevil with his blindness 298 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.720 is definitely very much one for me. The scene that broke my heart was 299 00:24:53.799 --> 00:25:00.000 Yoda becoming the little bouncing green fall of lightsabers in Attack of the Clones because 300 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:04.079 I'd always related to him. I mean, you know, I was never 301 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.519 the most able bodied kid, but even before I lost my leg, but 302 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.279 especially afterwards, I really related to him as this character who had you know, 303 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.359 his body was not very able. He walked with a cane, he 304 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.119 kind of hobbled around, and yet the power of his mind, the power 305 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.000 of his spirit, the power of his connection to the force was incredible. 306 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.200 And then to see him just throw away the cane and be able to be 307 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.599 this bouncing green ball of fighting, it was a real lit down because like, 308 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.079 oh, I thought I could relate to this character, but now the 309 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:36.440 character is doing something that doesn't that I could never do in a million years, 310 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:44.079 And so I think seeing how seeing the idea that in a superhuman world 311 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.279 disabled people would still exist and still function, and in some cases they might 312 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.160 have power or tech that that changes their visibility, or some they just might 313 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:57.400 be able to find other ways to use themselves helpfully. Would really be great. 314 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:07.200 It's it's certainly something we tried with with that pitch. Admittedly, we 315 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:12.559 could do more. You know, that story was kind of our take on 316 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:19.039 Oracle. Who's you know my favorite version of Barbara Gordon. It just it's 317 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:23.319 a continuation of her story. She got shot, she lost the ability to 318 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.519 walk, she never lost the ability to fight crime. That was it, 319 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:33.640 and it was a neat way to have somebody in the chair and to continue 320 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:41.279 her story. She was still heroic and you know, she's she's cured by 321 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:48.680 by science or whatever. As you said, it's it's just it's simple when 322 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:56.440 you see yourself on screen. Yeah, and it's something that if you were 323 00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:03.519 part of you know, uh, I hesitate to use the term normal. 324 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:10.200 But if if you are not disabled, able bodied, you you were not 325 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:14.440 going to you're not going to have that experience, or you have it so 326 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:27.720 much that it's it's no longer special to you. Yeah, h yeah, 327 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:32.839 Well, I mean I think I think one of the key things in telling 328 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.839 that story, and I think that I'm not sure if Jack got that in 329 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:41.839 conversations with people with various disabilities. The real trick was that the heroic legion 330 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.680 itself was not accessible, Like it was not an accessible space, and they 331 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:52.720 did not They had this person who is actually ideal to be doing this kind 332 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.720 of work, and they just didn't think to use her because, like you 333 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.079 know, and we're taking like sort of nineteen eighties mentality, they just saw 334 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.119 the chair, you know, going in there. And I think those kinds 335 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:11.799 of frustrations without without like like we didn't want to make these like sappy about 336 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.039 it, but just like that very real frustration. It's like there were four 337 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.839 steps they could have just put in a freaking ramp and been done, but 338 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:25.200 it's just like they are a superhero organization and they just weren't thinking about it, 339 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.480 and just like watching how that one thing that was the thing I probably 340 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.200 liked most about that story is that, you know, as you said, 341 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.400 a lot of us, there's this thought of you know, fun thing that 342 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.720 I didn't expect when I the world first heard the pitch living you know, 343 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.920 using a chair for a lot of my existence is you know, it's it 344 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.880 has some advantages, it has some disadvantages, But the main problem is that 345 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:48.400 a lot of the world is built in a way where it's sort of assumed, 346 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.960 oh yeah, one having one step into an entrance is not a problem. 347 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.960 Having one four steps between the how you know this part of the house 348 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.839 and this part of the house or this part of the building or this part 349 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.680 of the building is It's not a thing we think about. It's completely invisible 350 00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:07.160 to us. And like I remember, there was a venue that I used 351 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:12.519 to love going to for events that I wanted to go to again after I 352 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:17.000 have lost my leg and was now using a wheelchair, and I just totally 353 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:18.880 forgot there were a couple of stairs that that went into I think you used 354 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.319 to get to the bathrooms because I just had never thought about it before. 355 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.480 And when you tell the story that way, And it's not about fixing the 356 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.640 character Gladys in this case, it's about fixing the environment around her because she 357 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.359 is superpowered and she can do all these incredible things. It's just that we've 358 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:45.640 put up these dumb barriers that don't need to be there. Yeah, just 359 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.160 you your fresh people, do you want to give a quick summary, just 360 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.759 like the minimum amount of stuff story in terms of her powers, these people 361 00:29:52.839 --> 00:30:03.200 in only benefit society as a whole. Yeah, I got I. Oh 362 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.519 yeah, that would have been a spartan for us when we were talking about 363 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:10.880 it. Yeah. So this is the dispatch for the Heroic Legion, which 364 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:17.559 is our Avengers or or you know, main heroing organization. You call nine 365 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.319 one one, you have a super villain on your hands. They patch it 366 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:25.640 over to Gladys, who can multiply herself, and so she is the entire 367 00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:30.759 dispatch center. She knows everyone, and she's able to be on the phone 368 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:36.240 a thousand times at once. She just keeps making making copy after copy, 369 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.839 and they will wink together, remember the sorry about it, just where they 370 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:42.240 need someone who can understand what's happening in St. Louis at the same time 371 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:51.440 they know what's happening now complete Washington can or that kind of thing. Yes, 372 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:57.680 that's right. Uh yeah, the fillamin This league puts out a bounty 373 00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:04.000 on anyone with a name Jennifer. I appreciated that, and which led to 374 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:11.960 my one of my favorite I think that language with Jenny Side, which is 375 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:22.240 so dumb. Uh thank you. Yeah, yeah, just watch out Amanda's 376 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.039 that's kind of one of place goddess in the episode. Also about other issues. 377 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.240 I was obviously directly involved in the disability one, were there are other 378 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:33.599 issues you guys found that it was important to reach out to others or where 379 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.359 just because you've written about the topic in the past, you've done that kind 380 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:48.039 of research. Yeah, mm hmmm, yes, sir, Well, I 381 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:56.799 mean a lot of the season is coded for the game trans movement right now. 382 00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:02.279 Certainly that's our main antaganess is a version of the alt right, and 383 00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:08.039 a lot of the rhetoric that they have. That part was because again I 384 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:22.000 heard for money professionally because yeah, befo America. But there were there were 385 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:27.640 a few moments throughout the season where yeah, I have a lot of friends 386 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.480 in various parts of the queer community, and uh there was like just like 387 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:36.799 here and there it was just like hey, uh as a stand in like 388 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.799 like how explicit, you know, like like is this is this cruel? 389 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.799 Is this uplifting? Is this accurate? Is this like you know, basically 390 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.680 vibe check constantly as we were going through this season, uh, just to 391 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:54.119 make sure that we were and also just being the tone that we intended we 392 00:32:54.119 --> 00:33:00.200 we have at various points of writing this season. And we did a version 393 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:05.000 of this in season one where we stacked up all the male names and all 394 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.880 our female names. They're just like, how how many characters of consequence are 395 00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:15.079 men? And through you know, there's no malice intended. We had just 396 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:21.680 a lot of our more leading roles it just so happening to be men. 397 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:29.039 So we changed gender there and definitely during season two, I you know, 398 00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:32.079 we we had kind of a version of you know, okay, well how 399 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:38.000 many are black? How many are straight? Gay? And trying to just 400 00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:45.079 cast a wider net for no other for for honestly kind of selfish reasons, 401 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:52.000 to just make this show sound different. And you know that's that's an advantage. 402 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:58.920 Just having that diversity means that we're going to cast different people like our 403 00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:06.319 our main r two characters this season were to uh, you know, Indian 404 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:12.719 American women, and that just came from the randomness of season one of who's 405 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.000 the person we're going to focus on. It was Stephen Singh and he became 406 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.840 central to season one and season two became about his daughters, and that it 407 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:29.599 wasn't something we were we we weren't writing the series with oh or our lead 408 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:36.000 character are going to be, It's going to be somebody, Yeah, South 409 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:44.760 South. It was just random. And because we've we've tried to strive to 410 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:49.360 have as diverse a cast as possible, We've we've continued that into season two, 411 00:34:49.559 --> 00:35:02.320 which is something I'm proud of. And I think that's such an important 412 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:07.239 thing because as John, you and I are talking a little bit both off 413 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:09.840 air and a little bit on, I think one of the things that can 414 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.199 happen is when you bring it. You know, when you start with a 415 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:17.039 position of like, okay, the default character is white stress, white cis 416 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.000 straight male, which I don't think is like, no one's bad for starting 417 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:23.440 with that position, not saying you guys even were, which is I think 418 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:27.960 that's where most of us start, because that's certainly the societal default. The 419 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.199 idea then becomes, okay, if we're going to bring in this character, 420 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.920 let's tell this story about their issues about this thing. And you know, 421 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:39.840 I think like MS. Marvel, for example, is a great show about 422 00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:47.199 a Pakistani American and that show is deeply rooted in the Pakistani and Indian experience 423 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:52.880 of English colonialism and of the separation and all that. In the case of 424 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:55.599 the things their story has nothing to do with that. It's a story about 425 00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:01.920 people who are American and are from the Indian SubCom and I don't like, 426 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.880 I think that nature of there of who they are might come up once or 427 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.079 twice in the story, but the story is fundamentally about you know, public 428 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:15.119 identity and and who claims mantles and stuff like that, you know, And 429 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.159 to me, that's I think what we need more of is the story. 430 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:21.639 Yeah, like tell the story about the backgrounds that we don't get to hear 431 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.400 the stories of, but also just of those people existing in the world, 432 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.840 like yeah, I mean, and I think that's actually really a lot of 433 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.599 I mean, like one, you know, it helps that we have like 434 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:37.480 a pretty diverse cast that we could fall back to. But I think the 435 00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:39.719 idea of just being like, well, why why does this have to be 436 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:45.559 a dude? Like why does this guy like have to be white? For 437 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.559 just like our baseline characters really like gave us some interesting casting. I know 438 00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:58.039 in season one we in both seasons we gender flopped a couple of characters, 439 00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:04.719 specifically for an actress who gave a really good performance in our table reads. 440 00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:07.599 And and I think just being open to the idea of like, oh, 441 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:14.840 yeah, there's nothing Why does this person with the long, stretchy arms have 442 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:22.320 to be a dude? Likes there's nothing inherently masculine about this feature, And 443 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.360 when you were thinking about that, it just applies to all forms of casting, 444 00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:30.280 Like there's no absolutely there are stories that are, like you said, 445 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:36.519 like Hong Kan rooted in their cultural experience, but otherwise it's like roll a 446 00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.639 D twenty. Yeah. I mean one of my favorite examples of that is 447 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:45.360 the character who I at this point, with all due respect to Gladys but 448 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.639 think of as like the absolute pinnacle of disability representation I've seen on screen, 449 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.840 which is echo in the MCU and then with her own show, and that, 450 00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:59.679 as I understand it, they wanted a Native woman who was deaf because 451 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:04.119 that's who character was, and it turned out that the best person in the 452 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.519 auditioning process also happened to have a prosthetic leg, and so they said, 453 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.679 okay, sure, Like they wrote the character to be native and to be 454 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:16.280 deaf, they didn't write the character to be an amputee, but they then 455 00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:21.000 made that part of the story, and some of it was subtle ways and 456 00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:22.639 some of it was not to spoil anything, but there's you know, one 457 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:27.480 plot point that involves damage to her leg and her getting to fix it in 458 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.920 ways that felt incredibly relatable to a lot of us in the prosthetic using community 459 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:35.719 in a way, for example, like Misty Knight losing her arm and iron 460 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:42.280 fist and then just Denny Rand buying her this incredibly awesome prosthetic arm that she 461 00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.920 can put on the next day because somehow swelling heels far faster in the that 462 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:51.199 world in her own didn't speak to us, and it sounds like the exact 463 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.079 same thing they are, Like, Yeah, you can intentionally write characters, 464 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:57.880 but then also when casting you can say, oh, I'm going to open 465 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.840 this up, and if the actor I get is of a different background that 466 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.400 I had for this character, yeah, I'll just write, I'll just make 467 00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:12.440 I'll just change that. Yeah, best one up. Uh yeah, mhmm. 468 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:17.760 I'm just a lot of my thoughts are occupied with like what we're going 469 00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:23.519 to do in season three two and uh, he doesn't want to spoil anything. 470 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:28.440 I want, I want, I don't want to get too spoiler spoiler, 471 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:31.639 spoiler spoiler spoil don't I want I want to, I don't want to. 472 00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:39.159 Thank you that's fair. That's fair. Gosh, I have no I'm 473 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:43.880 gonna think we've had a good discussion on I just I want to bring up 474 00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:52.239 have you guys seen the movie? No, Yeah, and American Fiction is 475 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:59.920 definitely it's like in the next five movies I'll watch when I get correct. 476 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:13.119 Yeah. Well, well it's very good. I'm not gonna spoil anything beyond 477 00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.679 what's on the book cover kind of thing. But you know, one of 478 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:17.079 the aspects of it is, you know, it's about an author who wants 479 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:22.320 to write black stories that aren't just you know, people in the ghetto dealing 480 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:27.920 drugs and speaking the language that that you know is spoken by by some members 481 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.760 of that community, but also very not you know, sort of universal fill 482 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:36.960 black experience. And half of the movie is just about his kind of upper 483 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.639 middle class black family dealing with the kind of issues that happen in families in 484 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:45.320 movies a lot. And I've heard from a lot of people who are like, 485 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:49.400 well, it didn't make sense to have this parody of the American publishing 486 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:54.280 institution and racism while also having these stories. And I think they really missed 487 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:59.519 the point, because the point in it is that they're both parodying the kind 488 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.320 of stories the media likes to focus on, while also literally telling the kind 489 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:06.599 of stories that that it doesn't want to focus on. And I think that's 490 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:08.559 to me very similar kind of what you're talking about with you know, Stephen 491 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:12.400 Saying and his daughters and other things like that. Of you can take these 492 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.639 characters and tell the stories that are you know, that people think of when 493 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.079 they think of those characters, and often tell them with a better perspective, 494 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.280 especially depending on who's in your writing room. But you also just say, 495 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:24.119 remember, these are just part of our community, and so they're going to 496 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:34.159 have whatever experiences anyone else has. Yeah, yeah, no, And it's 497 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.119 you know, it's a bouncing act because it's like it's one of those things 498 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:43.440 too. That's like I think that if you are just open in terms of 499 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.760 who you invite into your writing room and who you like have audition and if 500 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.920 you cast a buy enough net, I think it's almost healthier not to go 501 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:57.239 into it with that like full intell, like unless you're planning on telling a 502 00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.119 very like a story that is rooted in a cultural experience, and I think 503 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:05.840 then you know, it is better to have someone specific in the running room 504 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.440 there to shape the story. But like, unless you're doing something like that, 505 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.719 I think I think it's just sort of healthy not to like even like 506 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:16.679 think of like tell the story first, like like just like like think of 507 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:22.280 a human being internally, like like what's going on in sign it and tell 508 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.480 the story like through their eyes and then sort of like let the bones fall 509 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:31.000 afterwards, you know, because it's it's also easy to like fall into that 510 00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:35.840 trap of just being like we are going to like tell the first story and 511 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.360 then it's just like it's like, you know, there's weird. There's a 512 00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:45.079 character I feels like it's a bunch of check without actual recently, and it's 513 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:53.440 it's John Kent, who's the young Superman, and he's he's bisexual, and 514 00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:58.960 it was it was a choice by the writer to to write him that way. 515 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.000 And I remember when I heard that, really it was kind of like, 516 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:04.639 ah, like why is he by? And the like it was a 517 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:09.239 knee jerk reaction, which honestly came from a selfish place of just like why 518 00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:19.400 isn't he another straight dude blah, But then realizing it was this choice that 519 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:23.760 was made that is an opportunity for more story of well now, you have 520 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:30.039 Clark who has somebody who's different from himself that he has to relate to, 521 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:36.519 and now that relates him, that relates to his relationship to his father, 522 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.920 and it's just this are you know, this tiny choice that really doesn't matter 523 00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:47.800 in the long run, but means a lot to a wider community in that 524 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:53.599 moment, and then later on, as that story goes on, just grows 525 00:43:53.639 --> 00:44:02.000 into larger and larger things. So, yeah, when we're writing these stories, 526 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.880 if we make these choices of Okay, this character is gay, or 527 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:12.119 this character as black, or this character is a straight way dude, it's 528 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:27.800 just okay, where's this going to payoff? You know? Right? Yeah? 529 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:31.400 I mean I've always been much more of a Batman person than a Superman, 530 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.320 in part because I always found there was nothing about Superman that I could 531 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:37.760 relate to. He was just too good, too much of the big blue 532 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.000 boy scout. And yet a teenage boy who's bisexual and is having trouble talking 533 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.639 to his father about that, that's a story I can very much relate to. 534 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:51.320 And to me, one of the powers of that is that if you 535 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:53.519 give me a point of connection with the character, I don't have to be 536 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:55.679 the same as the character. In fact, I want it to be different 537 00:44:55.719 --> 00:45:00.719 because then I can also see how is the experience that we've both share actually 538 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:05.519 different from their experience because of their differences. To go back to the echo 539 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:12.400 example, in terms of my disability, that character I found representation in more 540 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.599 so than probably any other character I've seen on screen. But of course I'm 541 00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:19.960 not female, I'm not deaf, I'm not native, and so seeing the 542 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.599 experience that I really relate to, but also through these all these other lenses 543 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.280 that I don't share, well, I think great for everybody else, but 544 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:29.159 for me, I mean, very selfishly, I felt like I got a 545 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:31.960 new perspective on my own, uh you know, existence as an amputee, 546 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:39.079 seeing that same experience through a very different lens. Yeah, well, I 547 00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:44.800 mean I think it's also like the experience you know, you know, being 548 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:49.920 able to have these different voices and like, you know, kids who are 549 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.440 just just like, hey, that's me, and like like feeling inspired by 550 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:59.280 that is great. But I think for all audiences just it gets so dull 551 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.559 hearing the same story over and over again. And I think to like watching 552 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:10.639 a lot of K dramas lately, and and I am just like constantly struck 553 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.599 than just like going outside the cultural norms of like making a thing, because 554 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:20.679 one thing in K dramas is they do not stick to a genre. Like 555 00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:23.320 they're like, they'll they'll do things that to an American audience like just is 556 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:27.960 a strong tonal shift, just because it's like it feels right in the character. 557 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:31.320 Like like they'll be like, we're we're joking around and you have a 558 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:35.599 crush and it's just a silly thing, and we're gonna be a rom com 559 00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:42.000 for three scenes and then I'm gonna kill your grandparents. But I will think 560 00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:45.400 like and it just y, it brings sparks to my brain when I see 561 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:52.880 stuff like that, I remember, do you see Sorry to bother you? 562 00:46:52.639 --> 00:47:00.519 To catch people really good stories that I never have. Boots first movie about 563 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:07.880 it's a young black man who finds work as a like a helpline person, 564 00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:15.880 but he's using his he code switches to using a white voice and the like 565 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:21.000 the voice he uses his deep like it's a call center. And it turns 566 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:24.199 out everybody else that works at this place are people of color, and they're 567 00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:37.000 like they're like selling stuff. It's such a difficult movie to describe. Yeah, 568 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:44.199 yeah, it's like Keith Stanfield and David Cross is his voice when he's 569 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:52.000 on the phone, but it goes to such like a trippy like mind just 570 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:58.679 exploding place and oh my god, and and again it's just like, yes, 571 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.360 new stories, give it to me where somewhere I haven't been. That's 572 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.719 why we make movies and TV and books. It's to take you to places 573 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:13.000 you haven't been. A book that only tells you about your own lived experience 574 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.920 is called a diary. Yeah, I mean this is a little more grounded, 575 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.000 but still felt like I was on the moon. The movie Anatomy of 576 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.760 a Fall, which is, among other things, a great murder mystery, 577 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.960 but it's also a large part of courtroom drama. But of course it's set 578 00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.440 in a court in France, and so anybody who's watched, you know, 579 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:32.760 some episodes of Law and Order, who's just used to, you know, 580 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.960 the rhythm of American courtrooms. Both my lawyer parents would say that those are 581 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.760 not accurate, but still, you know, to that idea watching the French, 582 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.519 watching a legal drama in the French legal system where you know, the 583 00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.320 judge is kind of a lot of the lawyer for both sides, and there's 584 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.360 a just all sorts of back and forth instead of questioning a witness. It 585 00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:58.159 was wild and just for that alone, just to kind of think of, 586 00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.480 like, what are the things that we take for granted as Americans? If 587 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:04.679 you are an American listening to this, or but wherever you are, what 588 00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.639 are the things you take for granted about your own country's legal system because you've 589 00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:10.480 seen it in legal dramas and now getting to see it through a completely different 590 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:15.320 lens, you know. Or I remember they did Law and Order London for 591 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:20.239 a season and every time the cops arrest them, they wouldn't read them their 592 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:23.199 rights, which was so baffling to me because that's not a thing in England. 593 00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:25.800 You know, that's a specific rule we have in the United States. 594 00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:30.719 Though, you know, something you said is also I think an interesting mindset 595 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:37.199 because yeah, two, Max, forget that other people aren't Americans, and 596 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:42.679 I think that that is an interesting trop we tend to universalize. I said, 597 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.000 other people would do this, but yeah, probably it's mostly Americans who 598 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:47.199 universalized their experience that much. Well, I mean, as an American, 599 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.000 I assume everyone doesn't. Yeah, well played, sir, well played. 600 00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:55.679 This has been great. I'm sure I'm gonna have you guys on again when 601 00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:00.800 season three comes, or any other excuse we can the last things you just 602 00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:02.440 want to say about these questions we've been talking about. Before I wrap up, 603 00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:06.039 we will have a bonus section talking about some of the other things that 604 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.599 both of these wonderfully creative fellows are working on. But any of the last 605 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:14.000 things you want to say about SPTR and representation and writing and disability and all 606 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:19.719 the rest, it just comes down to just take a chance, you know. 607 00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:25.440 I You know, I'll admit that when I hear about something being done 608 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:31.480 with, you know, my beloved Marvel or DC characters, and it's something 609 00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:37.400 new just by virtue of it being new, I'm kind of going, uh, 610 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:42.199 why, Like why is this writer doing this? Like it was better 611 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:46.039 when it was better the way I knew it when I was thirteen, And 612 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.960 if you give it a chance read it, you'll most likely be surprised. 613 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.039 It's probably gonna be something that's going to grab your attention. And with your 614 00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:02.760 own work, and especially if you're working in a collaborative medium, if you're 615 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:12.400 looking at people to work with, try you know, try try somebody new. 616 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:19.440 A lot of the writers that we brought on are folks that I met 617 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.719 over the phone or via email, and I'm just you know, it was 618 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:28.480 here, here's their pitch, let's read it, let's let's kick it around. 619 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:31.880 And you know, there were a couple people in there that I wasn't 620 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:35.119 even one hundred percent sure on. But it's just, you know what, 621 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:42.239 it's let's let's give them a chance, and universe it just wholesale. I 622 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:51.559 was surprised by everybody, And it's it's just that if if if you give 623 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:58.920 people a chance to to do something cool, I'm gonna go ahead and say 624 00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:04.280 the ninety five percent of the time they're going to turn something in pretty pretty 625 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.760 gosh Dan cool, four percent of the time turn into something that's okay, 626 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:22.960 and one percent and it'll be bad, you know. So yeah, I 627 00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:27.480 think it's so true because I, you know, I've had that exact same 628 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.679 experience of like, why are they changing the thing I love? He's then 629 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.239 I remember having it, especially about Robert Pattinson as Batman. I was like, 630 00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:37.679 this, why is the vampire guy in my favorite story? And of 631 00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:43.039 course I think that his performance is one of the best. But but but 632 00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.599 what's funny to me is I think I'm about ten years older than both us. 633 00:52:45.639 --> 00:52:50.800 You may not remember this, or you may the people who like the 634 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:52.840 folks who are like, oh, yeah, he should have been Batman, 635 00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.800 this person would have been Batman. They always look to Michael Keaton. When 636 00:52:55.800 --> 00:53:00.039 Michael Keaton was cast as Batman, comic book folks went, we didn't have 637 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:05.760 the internet, so it wasn't like as easily findable. But Michael Keaton to 638 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.480 that point was kind of the aw shocks. You know, I'm tripping over 639 00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:14.280 myself, but I'm cute and charming, romantic hero of rom coms and TV 640 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:19.519 shows. He'd never played anything heroic or physical, and people thought this was 641 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.800 ridiculous to have this guy play Batman. And of course now he's like considered 642 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.639 one of the definitive ones. So yeah, I think it's just it's always 643 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:30.360 such a good idea of Yeah, think about the things that you know, 644 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:32.239 you love and are dear to you, and maybe this change, and sometimes 645 00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.800 the change will not be what you want, and that's okay. There are 646 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:40.079 you know, God, why can't Ben Affleck is just never going to be 647 00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:44.239 my Batman? And that's fine, But you know, sometimes things will surprise 648 00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:46.400 you. Now and so for me, I think I have kind of a 649 00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:51.559 weird perspective because I spend so much time in these alt right spaces where they 650 00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:57.639 are angry about anything to do with diversity. Currently they are they're still blaming 651 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:07.559 the DEI programs at Boeing for plane malfunctions, which I got to talk to 652 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:14.440 an expert in the aircraft industry who pointed out that Boeing is actually less diverse 653 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.599 today than they were when they started DEI programs. They are more white than 654 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.519 ever right now, like you know, and of course it's also nothing to 655 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:27.000 do with the I even if that weren't the case, because it's just finance 656 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.360 bros. Coming in and this ring industries anyways, left is politics aside. 657 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:32.960 Speaking to a lot of these people, like because these people are legitimately accept 658 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:37.960 every time upset every time there's a black aerial, you know, for instance, 659 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:39.800 and they're like, you know, like these are people who are unironically 660 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:45.639 chanting, like you're ruining my childhood, and I think that, you know, 661 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:54.960 it's easy to forget that until Black Panther studio execs legitimately were like, 662 00:54:55.039 --> 00:55:00.800 we can't have a minority superhero on the poster, no one will see the 663 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:06.519 movie. That's twenty eighteen. Yeah, right, and so like you know, 664 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:12.400 just the act of like you know, and and there is such a 665 00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:17.719 stupid like corporate ethos to a lot of like diverse casting in like Blockbusters, 666 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:24.880 but for just everyday stories, just normalizing it is so freaking important because until 667 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.800 it's something that you don't have to think about anymore, there's always going to 668 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:34.960 be people who are like the default is white, the default is guy, 669 00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:38.840 right, like the default is straight, and if you're telling any other kind 670 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.400 of story, you are on some sort of like political mission. And I 671 00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:46.559 feel like you're wo, yeah, it's this whole thing. And I feel 672 00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.840 like the only way you really combat that is with volume. I feel like 673 00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:52.559 like you just have to, like because right right now, I mean like 674 00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:59.159 you have a you know, you have a black you have a Miles Morales 675 00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.199 movie, like like like no one's being like, oh geez, like into 676 00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:05.800 the Spider verse. I don't know, it sounds kind of risky, you 677 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:08.960 dudes, and like and that was lessened because we had Black Panther before it, 678 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:15.599 but it's still people still have that conversation, Like stupid Nepo babies who 679 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:21.119 run studios still had that conversation and and so you know, the only answer 680 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:23.119 is to do it more. You know, if you're telling a story and 681 00:56:23.239 --> 00:56:28.320 I didn't have and and and it has too many white characters, consider just 682 00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:34.119 mixing it up, if only to piss off white supremacists. That's yeah. 683 00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.079 I do want to have you on my Star Wars podcast at some point just 684 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.960 to hear you talk about how there's so much Star Wars content coming with black 685 00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:45.440 Jedi. So that would be a great topic to get you on to discuss. 686 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:46.920 But but I think, yeah, it's such a good point. And 687 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:53.440 to me, I remember I went to a a con that's all about kind 688 00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:57.880 of supernatural and comic books and stuff like that, and there was a panel 689 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.239 of all black creators talking about how important it was to them that Luke Cage 690 00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:07.320 and Black Panther came out about the same time, because Luke Cage was about 691 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.239 a lot of the stories that are often told already, but being told in 692 00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.719 a much different way, you know, from the black experience, instead of 693 00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:19.519 being told just you know, you know, white guys writing about you know, 694 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.920 what they think black people in poor neighborhoods are like. And and it 695 00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:27.239 was so diverse, and there were so many different experiences even within that community. 696 00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:30.239 But then also Black Panther comes out, which is all about afrofuturism. 697 00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:31.400 It has nothing to do with that kind of thing. And you know, 698 00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:37.320 I would say, you know, and and my closing thing would just be 699 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.440 my pitch to you is help around out Gladys's story by giving us someone who 700 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:44.880 is in a wheelchair or has some other disability but still does have some great 701 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:49.280 combat fighting ability. You know, I'd love to hear someone called what's your 702 00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.880 car talk? Version you tell you about. Yeah, I'd love to hear 703 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:58.000 someone who has like you know, it's paraplegic, but has this incredible Iron 704 00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:00.559 Man type suit the control with their brain and they come in with problems like 705 00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:02.960 that or just you know, anything like that, just to be able to 706 00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.320 say, yeah, we told this version of the story, but here's all 707 00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:09.800 these other ways that the characters can come around too. Yeah that's uh yeah, 708 00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:13.360 I'm definitely open to it. But you know the idea that like the 709 00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:19.239 way that we really elevate a classes by making them a cop. Sorry, 710 00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:23.440 I just oh no, no, I I what happened. What happened is 711 00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:28.519 we we opened the lid on my progressive politics. Now all of a sudden, 712 00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:32.800 Well, we'll see you assumed I meant a hero. Yeah, I 713 00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:36.960 mean, like there's the whole idea of like, you know, I support 714 00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:40.719 women's rights, but I also support women's wrongs. Give me a disabled supervillaineah, 715 00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:45.800 Like that'd be badasses, now, you know. Yeah? Awesome. 716 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:49.039 Well, thank you guys so so much. I'll ask you a question that 717 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:52.920 I very unfortunately forgot to ask the first time? How did people find super 718 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.920 Human in public radio? And the wealth of social media you guys do around 719 00:58:55.960 --> 00:58:59.920 it, because there's a lot of it. Yeah, well, it's at 720 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:05.079 spr pod or you could just type into whatever podcast app you use, or 721 00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:10.519 to googlely, you know, Superhuman public Radio, not superhero Superhuman public Radio. 722 00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:20.119 It's yours Human Stories. That's super I like it. I like it. 723 00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:22.920 It's a fantastic podcast. Definitely check it out. Please follow us with 724 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:25.360 all the other great stuff that these two do. That all in the show 725 00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:29.039 notes. We're gonna talk about it more in the member section, which, 726 00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:30.440 by the way, is a great time to say. For only five dollars 727 00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:34.679 a month fifty five dollars a year, you can become a member. It's 728 00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:37.760 a way to help support the podcast and what we do. Like I said, 729 00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:39.639 I got a new computer that I need to buy and some new microphones, 730 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:43.960 and every dollar helps. But more importantly, you get bonus content. 731 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:46.360 You get full bonus episodes. We've been doing the book club over on the 732 00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:51.280 Star Wars podcast. We hope to start doing something soon like that on Superhero 733 00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:54.360 Ethics, and you just go a great way to help support we're doing so 734 00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:59.039 on behalf of myself and these creators. Thank you all so much. We 735 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:04.599 have spoken. When all all that space, what are you do