Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, I'm joined
by John Dorsey of the Superhuman Public Radio podcast, one of my absolute favorites.
We've had him and Max Clark on before his guests, and we did
a lot of work together. Actually on season two was someone who talked to
them a little bit about some of the great issues they explored. We had
them on al ready to talk about season two as a whole, but today
we wanted to get back together to talk about issues of disability, issues of
disability and representation and how these stories get told, especially when you're telling them
as people who aren't necessarily part of the groups that you're talking about. So
John, Hello and welcome. Hello, and thanks for having me our pleasure,
Our pleasure. I'll say, for those who are watching on video,
I'm still working on my laptop. Apologies. Hopefully by the next time we
record, I'll be back on my desktop, just having some computer trouble.
Also, Maximilian Clark maybe joining us later, but John and I will certainly
have a lot to talk about. So John, first of all, just
for those who maybe haven't heard you before, haven't checked it out, what
is Superhuman Public Radio? Yeah, so Superhuman Public Radio, or as we
like to call it in show, SPR is a parody of NPR and a
world of where superheroes are central to American politics and life. And you know,
if if you're fans of shows like Welcome to night Vale or you know,
hell, I should have all of these in front of me when I'm
talking about the show. It's a fun comedy program, and I'll tell you,
yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. And I remember the first time
I had you on, I accidentally titled the show Superhero Public Radio and you
all corrected me that it's Superhuman Public Radio. Talk a little bit more about
that, because I think it's one of the mos interesting things is, as
you said, they're definitely our heroes, they're definitely our villains, but a
lot of it's just about the fact that we just have a lot of people
who are superpowered in this world. Yeah, well, you know it's it's
me and Max. When we were developing the show and we knew the you
know, the initial pitch on the show was a superhero themed NPR and we
had a lot of discussions about where that would come from and what the show
would look like, and we made the active choice to make it superhuman because
not every episode is going to deal with superhumans or with superheroes. Like,
you know, people may have superpowers, but they might be an accountant or
just a firefighter, right Like, they're not Spider Man, They're not Superman.
And it was a way to really it was a way to make our
world a lot bigger and allow us to tackle not only superheroes stories, but
then you know, what is the guy who catches on fire but you know,
work in a second hand store, Like what is his life full thing?
You know, every time I watch these shows and movies about superheroes and
super villains, that is one thing that we start talking about, especially because
now as you know we're talking about off air, we are really quite saturated
with those kind of stories. You know, it's fun to get into questions
like you know, what is life insurance and property insurance? Like in places
where all the stuff is happening. And I love how your show really is
exploring that. It's you know, you are telling a narrative, and the
narrative is quite interesting and certainly take some twists and turns. I'm not less
going to spoil here, but I think that alone makes the show worth checking
out. But you just, guys do so much of that world building of
exploring these questions of Okay, in a world where all these people have powers
but not everyone, how is that going to change day daily life? Yeah,
And you know it's the really what you're talking about of you're watching something
and those questions pop up. You know that that's that's that's the show that
it was our way to deal with that, especially as I get older.
Before we hopped on, we were just kind of talking about being older nerds
and you know, kind of having a little bit of a little bit of
chagrin about where superhero media and a lot of nerd media are these days.
The things that I'm attracted to are the stories that deal with superheroes and and
you know, genre elements, but then are outside of the hero's journey.
They're outside of the tales of heroism and are not necessarily and are are stories
of normal life right through a fantastic lens, right. And I think like
many of the best of the superhero comics and superhero TV shows and movies,
you guys also certainly are writing a lot of things where if you look a
little bit between the lines or sometimes don't even have to look that far.
The parallels like you're making commentary about our own world and dynamics in our own
world. That that are pretty like, you know, in the same way
that Captain America punching Hitler was. Yeah, well, being based on you
know, the show. The show isn't a one to one parody. Max,
who is our series director and also co writer and is joining us right
now, will let you know that, Uh, we don't try to do
one to one parodies of any anything, but and Max, Max hates parodies.
But he that's fair, that's fair. But but that's but that's part
of the show. I hate. It's okay if we're going to make fun
of I it's not enough to make fun of it. Why are we merit?
What? Why is this funny? Why is this weird? Why is
this scary? Or whatever? We try to take it a step further mm
hmmm, right. Yeah. For me, the only reason I don't like
working in parody is I find it limiting, like when you're when you're doing
a parody, you have to get a lot of things right about it,
and you can't have real characters like Frank Dreben only has so much agency.
It's a sentier. He's the protagonist in The Naked Gun because he's the classic
hard boiled detective and like, there's only so much movement, so he doesn't
get to be a complete character, which works because people like you. Yeah,
I mean, I don't think that you're you're not parody but exactly.
But to me, in the kind of science, that line between we have
to have real realms means they have Let's take a problem in our own world
and place it in this very different kind of world, maybe to offer some
answers, maybe just to say, how does this change your feelings on the
question? My answer by looking at it in a new way. And that's
not about parody. That's just about how can we tell an interesting story that
is about people fundamentally different to the audience but still has enough the audience to
relate to and say, oh, okay, I don't have the superpower,
but I understand the problem that that guy has. Yeah, we're pretty reference
happy. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly, well said you jumped down.
We do a lot of click introduction reference you do a lot. Yeah,
yeah, you get a lot of mileage. I have a good reference.
Oh yeah, absolutely, Hi, everyone I'm Maximilian Clark on SBR.
I am the director and editor, set designer and co writer a lot of
hats and otherwise I you don't do a lot of directeame writing for various things.
I'm also a h You're there to observe and masself and and comment on
from the other perspective all my time in you non and Trump rallies. Yes,
I don't think any of my audiences. I'm not there because I wanted
to make make that except controlled by Obama from his base is a real thing,
someone has told me. Now, I do want to get into the
specific topics for today, but I do have to ask first for all podcast,
what does a set designer do a set designer? I thought you said
you were a set designer as part of what you did for Oh okay,
that makes much more sense, you understand, Yeah, honestly truly, yeah,
sound designer. Well, actually, you know what kind of the same
thing right when you think about it, right, because one of the big
things in sound design is trying to feel like, okay, giving the audience
somewhere category to nominate you for so as part of an understanding properly so yeah,
yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, saved it. There we go,
There we go. I will absolutely win. You want a bunch of time
when you talk about the one nominated. But I know that as part of
the writing process of season two, you guys reached out to a lot of
folks, myself included, to kind of help with do some perspectives that aren't
necessarily your own. And we'll talk specifically about the disability question, but first
I just love to hear from you guys. What was that writing process,
like, like, what was the process of you guys deciding like, we
need more voices in this room? Well, I mean, if there are
format really lends uh itself to bring in more perspective. It was like we
always wanted our show to feel big, and you know there's a limiting factor
with Jack and I being a couple of white dudes behind it. And we
brought on four or five writers this year, and I think that we're intending
to bring on even more next year for the same reason. Just like you
know, stories are sort of born of your own perspective in life, and
you know to give yourself that well, it's just variety. My favoritely like
make a world feel key of writing out of season two came out of another
writer from other folks, and her pitch on what was a fairly boiler plate
idea was so so awesome. And then the the yeah, the Devin Connolly
one, and that was just purely out of you know, as Max was
saying, like seven, a different different pot. Different pots make different batches.
This is a soup. Yeah, that makes sense. It should be
better at metaphors. If I'm a writer, you have a chicken little soup
button, you know, I was gonna let the culinary part go and you
accept it as a metaphor. So yeah, no, no, no,
because everyone who's made soup that you have different pots every time you make it
different Yeah, exactly. I think for glot kosher, uh, you can
relate. But yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like again,
you know, it's about greening layers, and obviously we had a pretty strong
hand in just making sure that everything fit tonally correct for the show. But
that said that, I think that's something that we actually really want to do
even more next season is allow people to really like come out of us with
unexpected pitches within our framework and just get those voices out there, you know,
because the like for a wile it was like very hip in like studios
to say, write what you know. I think there was like a four
or five year period where every meeting I ever had on any level with executives
was always like, and why are you the person to tell this story?
And I think that that is and I know where you represent a community,
say they did when the county, right, the stories of that community,
especially the one that people expect for anyone's seen in American fiction. It's a
great sort of discussion at this point. Yes, yeah, right right,
there's there's all these like stay in your lane comments, and a great writer
can write about anything, but they can't do it in their head. And
I think that's where it was born from the idea of like, you can't
just imagine what life would be like for a homeless person and then write a
first person story about a homeless person. It's gonna fall flat, it's not
gonna feel real. So it's about doing the research and having conversations with people
in the community, bringing their voices in their opinions, like really like testing
out like your story and the voices in order to make it feel real,
right, And I think that's believer. I think finding one way and then
we'll kind of find a balance and then the next thing to far one way,
et cetera. H yeah, exactly, you know, And but the
upside, I mean, this is why we like, we had a segment
on involving disability, and so we wanted to reach out to people with disabilities,
and just like because because you don't want to be bad at your job.
Essentially, I was gonna say, like, you want to be sensitive,
but no, it's not even about that. You don't want to do
a bad job. And if your goal to portray us to talk and you
do it poor people from different communities, just about the stuff you're writing and
simple it really is. It's just you have to you have to check well,
especially because and I want to hear more about that process, especially because
I just to be clear, I was one of the people that you all
reach out to about disability, and so I want to talk about that specifically,
which is even on this in more general terms. One of the things
I think that happens the way too easily is people get in a cycle of
thinking, oh, I've watched eight million movies about people from this community,
so I know that community well enough to write it myself without realizing that that
means that once the sort of stereotype gets established in the media, then it
just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of Oh, every story I've seen about black
people has them speaking this way and you know, dealing drugs or doing whatever
terrible things. So therefore I know that experience and I can write that kind
of a story, right, Yeah, it's the idea that I have seen
some white guy in the seventies write this story. Tell me more about I
talked about writers. And then also you guys did this research of reaching out
and I know when you asked for contacted me about it, one thing you
said is it was something you'd want to talk more about on the podcast.
Talk a little bit more about that that process, and was disability the only
issue that you kind of reach out to, and how that whole conversation get
started. So the segment that you consulted on was one It was one of
my pitches, and it was going to be about an individual who who had
the same powers as multiple men and wound up being in charge of essentially the
like the nine to one to one program AM for the super multiple Man.
Those weren't as knowledgeable. Oh and multiple man is my favorite mutant and has
the ability to duplicate himself and you know, all sorts of shenanigans follow that.
And in our world, uh, Ellen, it was Ellen, I
should know this character's name, Gladys. I'm sorry, so glad Gladys was
the was this this character's name, you know, has like a psychic connection
to all these people, Gladys. And one of the ways that just to
just bare face, you know, mile mile high pitch, was to make
this this person wheelchair bound of just like you know, why why is this
person being put into this amazing position? Uh? If their power is so
powerful, if they are so powerful, why are they doing this? And
it's just oh, they're confined to a chair. And while while I you
know, I wrote something that I was proud of, is just no you
know, having no having known you of just well I should talk to somebody
about this, right and it it just purely comes from that. You know,
a lot of the stories that I tend to write on the show,
I'm I know, Max is the same. If we write something of you
know that deals with a particular type of community or or just even somebody who
has a similar job or the job of of who we're writing will tend to
reach out to those those people and say, hey, is this real?
Right, because if it even if it sounds true like you were saying,
you know, we've watched so much media we're like, ah, this is
this is this is gospel truth. But really it's it's just a story we've
been told. We we need to hear the truth from the people who have
lived it, right, That's another that's easy. Yeah. And and the
other thing too is like again us being a couple of white guys, we
just we don't want to just tell stories about white guys like essentially right if
like like we we're bored by them, like we've Indiana Jones was great,
perfect, I had a wonderful time. But you know, we don't want
to just talk about like white college professors. And so because we want to
tell these, uh, these stories we don't always have. I mean,
we want to tell stories about every community. We don't necessarily always have writers
from American community. Yeah, And I think that's what a lot of it's
about, And that's in spirit. I want to offer a bit of consulting
work. Terms like wheelchair bound or confined to wheelchairs or ones that a lot
of the community are kind of moving away from. We tend more like to
say that, you know, someone's a wheelchair user, just in terms of,
you know, because they do get people can do other things outside the
wheelchair, just not move as much. But again, it's like, you
know, before I lost my leg, I probably used the word laying all
the time and didn't really even think about why it might bother me until you
know, I I became to sailed with myself. I think these are all
words that you know, just yeah, yeah, that's something I'm also trying
to get folks to avoid. But that's the story. Oh wait, wait,
you mean just like casually like, oh that's lame. Yeah, yeah,
oh yeah, I think it's I mean, you know, I'll be
honest. Growing up as a kid in the eighties, I would say that's
so gay, because that's just the word we all use. I consider myself
by sex. I figured out that I was bisexual, and I still was
using that word, you know, because we just we picked these things up.
But the other point I'm gonna say is I really can relate to what
you're talking about because I think I'm doing the same thing I'm trying to do
more of the same thing as a podcaster. You know. For example,
when the first season of Luke Cage came out, me and my regular co
host covered it and it was you know, too white cis masculine presenting person
or it was two white masculine presenting people talking about Luke Cage, and we
got some feedback that was like, hey, this isn't really you guys don't
really have much to add to this conversation in terms of like you being outsiders
to the community of the stories really about. And you know, we thought
about that a lot, and in future seasons, I've always tried to make
sure there is someone you know of a community that is that that can better
relate to some of the stories that that we comment on not and there's always
that danger of, like, you don't want to just tokenize that person.
And that's one thing I really liked about what you guys did with the Gladys
story is because I think one of the things that can happen a lot if
you tell stories from people of underserved communities or underrepresented communities is that the only
stories you tell are about the reason that they're underrepresented and what I really loved
with the Gladys story is if I remember the first time you introduced her,
her being in a wheelchair didn't even come up. You know, there's so
much more to her story mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, like like it
takes like probably like five six pages of like getting her story before it goes
into it and it really is. Yeah, I'm glad that that. I'm
glad that that that that that hit uh because because in the review process that
was definitely something because like we also wanted it to be like you know,
because there's yeah, there's an extra hero stories where someone's disability is actually not
a disability, where like Dared Devil's blind but he could see, right,
and so yeah, like like double good. Uh. And and I feel
like that that is a uh something that always makes me feel like a little
weird when we stay in stories, and we didn't want to do that with
Goddess because I don't think that well, actually, you know, maybe this
is better as a question because I you know, but my impression is having
some form of disability is an inconvenience, right. I think that's true.
It doesn't have to be defined. And here's also another thing that I know
you guys took an account and I feel like that new once is often no
one person you speak to his frontal research is gonna be able to give you
the full range of opinions on that, you know, and within the disability
community, you know, like there are some who like to say differently abled
instead of disabled. I think that's a little bit silly, but that's a
term that some people really like, and some people, I think would object
to the idea that it's the disability that makes it inconvenient. It's the fact
that we live in a world that is built for able bodied people that creates
the inconvenience, you know. And in some cases, like I know,
for example, the deaf community doesn't consider themselves part of the disabled community.
Some individual deaf people do, but for the most part they think of that
as a separate thing because in them it is a different understanding of communication,
not a bad one or a broken one by any means. But I think,
yeah, the general term there is very true, and I think that
one of the things that it is really frustrating. Something I talked about a
lot, and a lot of other disability people have talked about, is that,
especially in for a long time. I think I was really nervous to
see a disabled character in either fantasy or science fiction, because so often what
would happen is that either the magic or the science would fix that disability,
you know, and it would be Yeah, I think Daredevil with his blindness
is definitely very much one for me. The scene that broke my heart was
Yoda becoming the little bouncing green fall of lightsabers in Attack of the Clones because
I'd always related to him. I mean, you know, I was never
the most able bodied kid, but even before I lost my leg, but
especially afterwards, I really related to him as this character who had you know,
his body was not very able. He walked with a cane, he
kind of hobbled around, and yet the power of his mind, the power
of his spirit, the power of his connection to the force was incredible.
And then to see him just throw away the cane and be able to be
this bouncing green ball of fighting, it was a real lit down because like,
oh, I thought I could relate to this character, but now the
character is doing something that doesn't that I could never do in a million years,
And so I think seeing how seeing the idea that in a superhuman world
disabled people would still exist and still function, and in some cases they might
have power or tech that that changes their visibility, or some they just might
be able to find other ways to use themselves helpfully. Would really be great.
It's it's certainly something we tried with with that pitch. Admittedly, we
could do more. You know, that story was kind of our take on
Oracle. Who's you know my favorite version of Barbara Gordon. It just it's
a continuation of her story. She got shot, she lost the ability to
walk, she never lost the ability to fight crime. That was it,
and it was a neat way to have somebody in the chair and to continue
her story. She was still heroic and you know, she's she's cured by
by science or whatever. As you said, it's it's just it's simple when
you see yourself on screen. Yeah, and it's something that if you were
part of you know, uh, I hesitate to use the term normal.
But if if you are not disabled, able bodied, you you were not
going to you're not going to have that experience, or you have it so
much that it's it's no longer special to you. Yeah, h yeah,
Well, I mean I think I think one of the key things in telling
that story, and I think that I'm not sure if Jack got that in
conversations with people with various disabilities. The real trick was that the heroic legion
itself was not accessible, Like it was not an accessible space, and they
did not They had this person who is actually ideal to be doing this kind
of work, and they just didn't think to use her because, like you
know, and we're taking like sort of nineteen eighties mentality, they just saw
the chair, you know, going in there. And I think those kinds
of frustrations without without like like we didn't want to make these like sappy about
it, but just like that very real frustration. It's like there were four
steps they could have just put in a freaking ramp and been done, but
it's just like they are a superhero organization and they just weren't thinking about it,
and just like watching how that one thing that was the thing I probably
liked most about that story is that, you know, as you said,
a lot of us, there's this thought of you know, fun thing that
I didn't expect when I the world first heard the pitch living you know,
using a chair for a lot of my existence is you know, it's it
has some advantages, it has some disadvantages, But the main problem is that
a lot of the world is built in a way where it's sort of assumed,
oh yeah, one having one step into an entrance is not a problem.
Having one four steps between the how you know this part of the house
and this part of the house or this part of the building or this part
of the building is It's not a thing we think about. It's completely invisible
to us. And like I remember, there was a venue that I used
to love going to for events that I wanted to go to again after I
have lost my leg and was now using a wheelchair, and I just totally
forgot there were a couple of stairs that that went into I think you used
to get to the bathrooms because I just had never thought about it before.
And when you tell the story that way, And it's not about fixing the
character Gladys in this case, it's about fixing the environment around her because she
is superpowered and she can do all these incredible things. It's just that we've
put up these dumb barriers that don't need to be there. Yeah, just
you your fresh people, do you want to give a quick summary, just
like the minimum amount of stuff story in terms of her powers, these people
in only benefit society as a whole. Yeah, I got I. Oh
yeah, that would have been a spartan for us when we were talking about
it. Yeah. So this is the dispatch for the Heroic Legion, which
is our Avengers or or you know, main heroing organization. You call nine
one one, you have a super villain on your hands. They patch it
over to Gladys, who can multiply herself, and so she is the entire
dispatch center. She knows everyone, and she's able to be on the phone
a thousand times at once. She just keeps making making copy after copy,
and they will wink together, remember the sorry about it, just where they
need someone who can understand what's happening in St. Louis at the same time
they know what's happening now complete Washington can or that kind of thing. Yes,
that's right. Uh yeah, the fillamin This league puts out a bounty
on anyone with a name Jennifer. I appreciated that, and which led to
my one of my favorite I think that language with Jenny Side, which is
so dumb. Uh thank you. Yeah, yeah, just watch out Amanda's
that's kind of one of place goddess in the episode. Also about other issues.
I was obviously directly involved in the disability one, were there are other
issues you guys found that it was important to reach out to others or where
just because you've written about the topic in the past, you've done that kind
of research. Yeah, mm hmmm, yes, sir, Well, I
mean a lot of the season is coded for the game trans movement right now.
Certainly that's our main antaganess is a version of the alt right, and
a lot of the rhetoric that they have. That part was because again I
heard for money professionally because yeah, befo America. But there were there were
a few moments throughout the season where yeah, I have a lot of friends
in various parts of the queer community, and uh there was like just like
here and there it was just like hey, uh as a stand in like
like how explicit, you know, like like is this is this cruel?
Is this uplifting? Is this accurate? Is this like you know, basically
vibe check constantly as we were going through this season, uh, just to
make sure that we were and also just being the tone that we intended we
we have at various points of writing this season. And we did a version
of this in season one where we stacked up all the male names and all
our female names. They're just like, how how many characters of consequence are
men? And through you know, there's no malice intended. We had just
a lot of our more leading roles it just so happening to be men.
So we changed gender there and definitely during season two, I you know,
we we had kind of a version of you know, okay, well how
many are black? How many are straight? Gay? And trying to just
cast a wider net for no other for for honestly kind of selfish reasons,
to just make this show sound different. And you know that's that's an advantage.
Just having that diversity means that we're going to cast different people like our
our main r two characters this season were to uh, you know, Indian
American women, and that just came from the randomness of season one of who's
the person we're going to focus on. It was Stephen Singh and he became
central to season one and season two became about his daughters, and that it
wasn't something we were we we weren't writing the series with oh or our lead
character are going to be, It's going to be somebody, Yeah, South
South. It was just random. And because we've we've tried to strive to
have as diverse a cast as possible, We've we've continued that into season two,
which is something I'm proud of. And I think that's such an important
thing because as John, you and I are talking a little bit both off
air and a little bit on, I think one of the things that can
happen is when you bring it. You know, when you start with a
position of like, okay, the default character is white stress, white cis
straight male, which I don't think is like, no one's bad for starting
with that position, not saying you guys even were, which is I think
that's where most of us start, because that's certainly the societal default. The
idea then becomes, okay, if we're going to bring in this character,
let's tell this story about their issues about this thing. And you know,
I think like MS. Marvel, for example, is a great show about
a Pakistani American and that show is deeply rooted in the Pakistani and Indian experience
of English colonialism and of the separation and all that. In the case of
the things their story has nothing to do with that. It's a story about
people who are American and are from the Indian SubCom and I don't like,
I think that nature of there of who they are might come up once or
twice in the story, but the story is fundamentally about you know, public
identity and and who claims mantles and stuff like that, you know, And
to me, that's I think what we need more of is the story.
Yeah, like tell the story about the backgrounds that we don't get to hear
the stories of, but also just of those people existing in the world,
like yeah, I mean, and I think that's actually really a lot of
I mean, like one, you know, it helps that we have like
a pretty diverse cast that we could fall back to. But I think the
idea of just being like, well, why why does this have to be
a dude? Like why does this guy like have to be white? For
just like our baseline characters really like gave us some interesting casting. I know
in season one we in both seasons we gender flopped a couple of characters,
specifically for an actress who gave a really good performance in our table reads.
And and I think just being open to the idea of like, oh,
yeah, there's nothing Why does this person with the long, stretchy arms have
to be a dude? Likes there's nothing inherently masculine about this feature, And
when you were thinking about that, it just applies to all forms of casting,
Like there's no absolutely there are stories that are, like you said,
like Hong Kan rooted in their cultural experience, but otherwise it's like roll a
D twenty. Yeah. I mean one of my favorite examples of that is
the character who I at this point, with all due respect to Gladys but
think of as like the absolute pinnacle of disability representation I've seen on screen,
which is echo in the MCU and then with her own show, and that,
as I understand it, they wanted a Native woman who was deaf because
that's who character was, and it turned out that the best person in the
auditioning process also happened to have a prosthetic leg, and so they said,
okay, sure, Like they wrote the character to be native and to be
deaf, they didn't write the character to be an amputee, but they then
made that part of the story, and some of it was subtle ways and
some of it was not to spoil anything, but there's you know, one
plot point that involves damage to her leg and her getting to fix it in
ways that felt incredibly relatable to a lot of us in the prosthetic using community
in a way, for example, like Misty Knight losing her arm and iron
fist and then just Denny Rand buying her this incredibly awesome prosthetic arm that she
can put on the next day because somehow swelling heels far faster in the that
world in her own didn't speak to us, and it sounds like the exact
same thing they are, Like, Yeah, you can intentionally write characters,
but then also when casting you can say, oh, I'm going to open
this up, and if the actor I get is of a different background that
I had for this character, yeah, I'll just write, I'll just make
I'll just change that. Yeah, best one up. Uh yeah, mhmm.
I'm just a lot of my thoughts are occupied with like what we're going
to do in season three two and uh, he doesn't want to spoil anything.
I want, I want, I don't want to get too spoiler spoiler,
spoiler spoiler spoil don't I want I want to, I don't want to.
Thank you that's fair. That's fair. Gosh, I have no I'm
gonna think we've had a good discussion on I just I want to bring up
have you guys seen the movie? No, Yeah, and American Fiction is
definitely it's like in the next five movies I'll watch when I get correct.
Yeah. Well, well it's very good. I'm not gonna spoil anything beyond
what's on the book cover kind of thing. But you know, one of
the aspects of it is, you know, it's about an author who wants
to write black stories that aren't just you know, people in the ghetto dealing
drugs and speaking the language that that you know is spoken by by some members
of that community, but also very not you know, sort of universal fill
black experience. And half of the movie is just about his kind of upper
middle class black family dealing with the kind of issues that happen in families in
movies a lot. And I've heard from a lot of people who are like,
well, it didn't make sense to have this parody of the American publishing
institution and racism while also having these stories. And I think they really missed
the point, because the point in it is that they're both parodying the kind
of stories the media likes to focus on, while also literally telling the kind
of stories that that it doesn't want to focus on. And I think that's
to me very similar kind of what you're talking about with you know, Stephen
Saying and his daughters and other things like that. Of you can take these
characters and tell the stories that are you know, that people think of when
they think of those characters, and often tell them with a better perspective,
especially depending on who's in your writing room. But you also just say,
remember, these are just part of our community, and so they're going to
have whatever experiences anyone else has. Yeah, yeah, no, And it's
you know, it's a bouncing act because it's like it's one of those things
too. That's like I think that if you are just open in terms of
who you invite into your writing room and who you like have audition and if
you cast a buy enough net, I think it's almost healthier not to go
into it with that like full intell, like unless you're planning on telling a
very like a story that is rooted in a cultural experience, and I think
then you know, it is better to have someone specific in the running room
there to shape the story. But like, unless you're doing something like that,
I think I think it's just sort of healthy not to like even like
think of like tell the story first, like like just like like think of
a human being internally, like like what's going on in sign it and tell
the story like through their eyes and then sort of like let the bones fall
afterwards, you know, because it's it's also easy to like fall into that
trap of just being like we are going to like tell the first story and
then it's just like it's like, you know, there's weird. There's a
character I feels like it's a bunch of check without actual recently, and it's
it's John Kent, who's the young Superman, and he's he's bisexual, and
it was it was a choice by the writer to to write him that way.
And I remember when I heard that, really it was kind of like,
ah, like why is he by? And the like it was a
knee jerk reaction, which honestly came from a selfish place of just like why
isn't he another straight dude blah, But then realizing it was this choice that
was made that is an opportunity for more story of well now, you have
Clark who has somebody who's different from himself that he has to relate to,
and now that relates him, that relates to his relationship to his father,
and it's just this are you know, this tiny choice that really doesn't matter
in the long run, but means a lot to a wider community in that
moment, and then later on, as that story goes on, just grows
into larger and larger things. So, yeah, when we're writing these stories,
if we make these choices of Okay, this character is gay, or
this character as black, or this character is a straight way dude, it's
just okay, where's this going to payoff? You know? Right? Yeah?
I mean I've always been much more of a Batman person than a Superman,
in part because I always found there was nothing about Superman that I could
relate to. He was just too good, too much of the big blue
boy scout. And yet a teenage boy who's bisexual and is having trouble talking
to his father about that, that's a story I can very much relate to.
And to me, one of the powers of that is that if you
give me a point of connection with the character, I don't have to be
the same as the character. In fact, I want it to be different
because then I can also see how is the experience that we've both share actually
different from their experience because of their differences. To go back to the echo
example, in terms of my disability, that character I found representation in more
so than probably any other character I've seen on screen. But of course I'm
not female, I'm not deaf, I'm not native, and so seeing the
experience that I really relate to, but also through these all these other lenses
that I don't share, well, I think great for everybody else, but
for me, I mean, very selfishly, I felt like I got a
new perspective on my own, uh you know, existence as an amputee,
seeing that same experience through a very different lens. Yeah, well, I
mean I think it's also like the experience you know, you know, being
able to have these different voices and like, you know, kids who are
just just like, hey, that's me, and like like feeling inspired by
that is great. But I think for all audiences just it gets so dull
hearing the same story over and over again. And I think to like watching
a lot of K dramas lately, and and I am just like constantly struck
than just like going outside the cultural norms of like making a thing, because
one thing in K dramas is they do not stick to a genre. Like
they're like, they'll they'll do things that to an American audience like just is
a strong tonal shift, just because it's like it feels right in the character.
Like like they'll be like, we're we're joking around and you have a
crush and it's just a silly thing, and we're gonna be a rom com
for three scenes and then I'm gonna kill your grandparents. But I will think
like and it just y, it brings sparks to my brain when I see
stuff like that, I remember, do you see Sorry to bother you?
To catch people really good stories that I never have. Boots first movie about
it's a young black man who finds work as a like a helpline person,
but he's using his he code switches to using a white voice and the like
the voice he uses his deep like it's a call center. And it turns
out everybody else that works at this place are people of color, and they're
like they're like selling stuff. It's such a difficult movie to describe. Yeah,
yeah, it's like Keith Stanfield and David Cross is his voice when he's
on the phone, but it goes to such like a trippy like mind just
exploding place and oh my god, and and again it's just like, yes,
new stories, give it to me where somewhere I haven't been. That's
why we make movies and TV and books. It's to take you to places
you haven't been. A book that only tells you about your own lived experience
is called a diary. Yeah, I mean this is a little more grounded,
but still felt like I was on the moon. The movie Anatomy of
a Fall, which is, among other things, a great murder mystery,
but it's also a large part of courtroom drama. But of course it's set
in a court in France, and so anybody who's watched, you know,
some episodes of Law and Order, who's just used to, you know,
the rhythm of American courtrooms. Both my lawyer parents would say that those are
not accurate, but still, you know, to that idea watching the French,
watching a legal drama in the French legal system where you know, the
judge is kind of a lot of the lawyer for both sides, and there's
a just all sorts of back and forth instead of questioning a witness. It
was wild and just for that alone, just to kind of think of,
like, what are the things that we take for granted as Americans? If
you are an American listening to this, or but wherever you are, what
are the things you take for granted about your own country's legal system because you've
seen it in legal dramas and now getting to see it through a completely different
lens, you know. Or I remember they did Law and Order London for
a season and every time the cops arrest them, they wouldn't read them their
rights, which was so baffling to me because that's not a thing in England.
You know, that's a specific rule we have in the United States.
Though, you know, something you said is also I think an interesting mindset
because yeah, two, Max, forget that other people aren't Americans, and
I think that that is an interesting trop we tend to universalize. I said,
other people would do this, but yeah, probably it's mostly Americans who
universalized their experience that much. Well, I mean, as an American,
I assume everyone doesn't. Yeah, well played, sir, well played.
This has been great. I'm sure I'm gonna have you guys on again when
season three comes, or any other excuse we can the last things you just
want to say about these questions we've been talking about. Before I wrap up,
we will have a bonus section talking about some of the other things that
both of these wonderfully creative fellows are working on. But any of the last
things you want to say about SPTR and representation and writing and disability and all
the rest, it just comes down to just take a chance, you know.
I You know, I'll admit that when I hear about something being done
with, you know, my beloved Marvel or DC characters, and it's something
new just by virtue of it being new, I'm kind of going, uh,
why, Like why is this writer doing this? Like it was better
when it was better the way I knew it when I was thirteen, And
if you give it a chance read it, you'll most likely be surprised.
It's probably gonna be something that's going to grab your attention. And with your
own work, and especially if you're working in a collaborative medium, if you're
looking at people to work with, try you know, try try somebody new.
A lot of the writers that we brought on are folks that I met
over the phone or via email, and I'm just you know, it was
here, here's their pitch, let's read it, let's let's kick it around.
And you know, there were a couple people in there that I wasn't
even one hundred percent sure on. But it's just, you know what,
it's let's let's give them a chance, and universe it just wholesale. I
was surprised by everybody, And it's it's just that if if if you give
people a chance to to do something cool, I'm gonna go ahead and say
the ninety five percent of the time they're going to turn something in pretty pretty
gosh Dan cool, four percent of the time turn into something that's okay,
and one percent and it'll be bad, you know. So yeah, I
think it's so true because I, you know, I've had that exact same
experience of like, why are they changing the thing I love? He's then
I remember having it, especially about Robert Pattinson as Batman. I was like,
this, why is the vampire guy in my favorite story? And of
course I think that his performance is one of the best. But but but
what's funny to me is I think I'm about ten years older than both us.
You may not remember this, or you may the people who like the
folks who are like, oh, yeah, he should have been Batman,
this person would have been Batman. They always look to Michael Keaton. When
Michael Keaton was cast as Batman, comic book folks went, we didn't have
the internet, so it wasn't like as easily findable. But Michael Keaton to
that point was kind of the aw shocks. You know, I'm tripping over
myself, but I'm cute and charming, romantic hero of rom coms and TV
shows. He'd never played anything heroic or physical, and people thought this was
ridiculous to have this guy play Batman. And of course now he's like considered
one of the definitive ones. So yeah, I think it's just it's always
such a good idea of Yeah, think about the things that you know,
you love and are dear to you, and maybe this change, and sometimes
the change will not be what you want, and that's okay. There are
you know, God, why can't Ben Affleck is just never going to be
my Batman? And that's fine, But you know, sometimes things will surprise
you. Now and so for me, I think I have kind of a
weird perspective because I spend so much time in these alt right spaces where they
are angry about anything to do with diversity. Currently they are they're still blaming
the DEI programs at Boeing for plane malfunctions, which I got to talk to
an expert in the aircraft industry who pointed out that Boeing is actually less diverse
today than they were when they started DEI programs. They are more white than
ever right now, like you know, and of course it's also nothing to
do with the I even if that weren't the case, because it's just finance
bros. Coming in and this ring industries anyways, left is politics aside.
Speaking to a lot of these people, like because these people are legitimately accept
every time upset every time there's a black aerial, you know, for instance,
and they're like, you know, like these are people who are unironically
chanting, like you're ruining my childhood, and I think that, you know,
it's easy to forget that until Black Panther studio execs legitimately were like,
we can't have a minority superhero on the poster, no one will see the
movie. That's twenty eighteen. Yeah, right, and so like you know,
just the act of like you know, and and there is such a
stupid like corporate ethos to a lot of like diverse casting in like Blockbusters,
but for just everyday stories, just normalizing it is so freaking important because until
it's something that you don't have to think about anymore, there's always going to
be people who are like the default is white, the default is guy,
right, like the default is straight, and if you're telling any other kind
of story, you are on some sort of like political mission. And I
feel like you're wo, yeah, it's this whole thing. And I feel
like the only way you really combat that is with volume. I feel like
like you just have to, like because right right now, I mean like
you have a you know, you have a black you have a Miles Morales
movie, like like like no one's being like, oh geez, like into
the Spider verse. I don't know, it sounds kind of risky, you
dudes, and like and that was lessened because we had Black Panther before it,
but it's still people still have that conversation, Like stupid Nepo babies who
run studios still had that conversation and and so you know, the only answer
is to do it more. You know, if you're telling a story and
I didn't have and and and it has too many white characters, consider just
mixing it up, if only to piss off white supremacists. That's yeah.
I do want to have you on my Star Wars podcast at some point just
to hear you talk about how there's so much Star Wars content coming with black
Jedi. So that would be a great topic to get you on to discuss.
But but I think, yeah, it's such a good point. And
to me, I remember I went to a a con that's all about kind
of supernatural and comic books and stuff like that, and there was a panel
of all black creators talking about how important it was to them that Luke Cage
and Black Panther came out about the same time, because Luke Cage was about
a lot of the stories that are often told already, but being told in
a much different way, you know, from the black experience, instead of
being told just you know, you know, white guys writing about you know,
what they think black people in poor neighborhoods are like. And and it
was so diverse, and there were so many different experiences even within that community.
But then also Black Panther comes out, which is all about afrofuturism.
It has nothing to do with that kind of thing. And you know,
I would say, you know, and and my closing thing would just be
my pitch to you is help around out Gladys's story by giving us someone who
is in a wheelchair or has some other disability but still does have some great
combat fighting ability. You know, I'd love to hear someone called what's your
car talk? Version you tell you about. Yeah, I'd love to hear
someone who has like you know, it's paraplegic, but has this incredible Iron
Man type suit the control with their brain and they come in with problems like
that or just you know, anything like that, just to be able to
say, yeah, we told this version of the story, but here's all
these other ways that the characters can come around too. Yeah that's uh yeah,
I'm definitely open to it. But you know the idea that like the
way that we really elevate a classes by making them a cop. Sorry,
I just oh no, no, I I what happened. What happened is
we we opened the lid on my progressive politics. Now all of a sudden,
Well, we'll see you assumed I meant a hero. Yeah, I
mean, like there's the whole idea of like, you know, I support
women's rights, but I also support women's wrongs. Give me a disabled supervillaineah,
Like that'd be badasses, now, you know. Yeah? Awesome.
Well, thank you guys so so much. I'll ask you a question that
I very unfortunately forgot to ask the first time? How did people find super
Human in public radio? And the wealth of social media you guys do around
it, because there's a lot of it. Yeah, well, it's at
spr pod or you could just type into whatever podcast app you use, or
to googlely, you know, Superhuman public Radio, not superhero Superhuman public Radio.
It's yours Human Stories. That's super I like it. I like it.
It's a fantastic podcast. Definitely check it out. Please follow us with
all the other great stuff that these two do. That all in the show
notes. We're gonna talk about it more in the member section, which,
by the way, is a great time to say. For only five dollars
a month fifty five dollars a year, you can become a member. It's
a way to help support the podcast and what we do. Like I said,
I got a new computer that I need to buy and some new microphones,
and every dollar helps. But more importantly, you get bonus content.
You get full bonus episodes. We've been doing the book club over on the
Star Wars podcast. We hope to start doing something soon like that on Superhero
Ethics, and you just go a great way to help support we're doing so
on behalf of myself and these creators. Thank you all so much. We
have spoken. When all all that space, what are you do