And the righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done. They will bathe their
feet in the blood of the wicked. Wow, what a horrible book,
you know. In fact, I don't think there's a single good thing that
is exclusively found in the Bible. If you disagree, we've got open lines,
call in because the show is starting right now. WHOA, that's right,
folks. Today is Sunday, May twenty first, twenty twenty three,
and I am your host Secularity, and joining me today is somebody brand new
to the wonderful Talk Heathen audience. It's Tom Benson. What is up?
Tom? Hey, that's hard. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I
am good. I'm excited to have you on. Man. I know you've
already been hanging out with us a little bit here at the ACA. But
for everybody here that doesn't know about you, what tell us about yourself?
Who are you? What do you do? Why are you here? I
guess I mean that's a lot of questions. You don't have to answer all
of those, so many things things all at once. Uh. Well,
I run a podcast called uh We're found at www dot whoever we got here
dot com or wherever we go there dot com. You can get both them
both from work. But we have some uh some some similarities parallels in terms
of the folks that we engage with, where we're talking to people out there
in the world and great cross over here. So found myself talking to you
today and we're dialing in from the East Coast and the Mountain coast here.
That's excited to talk to some folks. Yeah, it's gonna be a good
time, I think, folks. And remember Talk Heathen is a live call
in show and we have open lines. We've already got a couple of calls,
but we have even more lines available, so get those calls in at
five one two nine nine nine two four two or from your computer at tiny
dot cc slash call t H. And as always, folks, I have
to remind you because I am contractually obligated. Talk Heathen is a product of
the Atheist Community of Austin at five oh one c three, nonprofit organization dedicated
to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation
of religion and government. All very important things and a wonderful, wonderful organization
that is promoting them all. So we are here to do that, folks.
And again we've got some open lines. But before we grab one of
these great calls, we are going to do the Question of the week.
Talk heathen to me, folks. We do this every single week. We
give you a question and we read out our top three answers from last week.
So last week we asked if you had your own circle of hell,
what would your punishment be? So these are awesome and I am excited.
Number three, Chuck Gaido says, in my circle of hell, in my
circle of heaven, you get to toast marshmallows. My circle of hell is
the same place, but you are a marshmallow. That's pretty intense. Honestly,
I don't know about that. I think I would take being a marshmallow
just by itself. Maybe not the toast. Number two we've got from Blake
Walker. My circle of hell would be having everybody sit on clouds, playing
harps and singing praises to yahweh for all eternity. Yeah, I agree with
that. Yeah, that does not sound like a good time. And finally
number one for last week, we've got Marcel Jansen's says, version of hell
where you actually have to read the software user agreements you checked okay, on
now, that is diabolical, Marcel, that is diabolical. I yeah,
if that is what hell is, I might convert im. I'm not an
intinit hell yeah right. U Hey, some of those user agreements do feel
like they're eternity, Like, how do you pack that much? It doesn't
matter. We're not going to do it. We're not going to be But
we do have a prompt for next week, folks, so as always remember,
throw those comments underneath the video, don't put them in the live chat.
Put them in the comments of the video, and we will grab our
top three. But let me ask you, Tom, let me ask you
here. If God favors humans, why are they so blank? What do
you think? What do you got? I thought about this one. I
thought about it a lot, and I think the question is the question,
right, the answers in the question, why why are they so blank?
Oh? Oh you just leave it? Yeah. I think it was easier,
not just just for me not to change anything. I like that.
No, that's that's smart. That's smart. Halfway though, on one side,
you got it's nature nurture, and you don't control the nature part because
he's just born with that. So I guess you're not completely blank to some
degree, but the nurture that seems like an equally important part. And that's
that's blanket. So it seems I do know some blank individuals. I won't
call them out by name, but yeah, it's like it's it's it's almost
like talking to like, uh, like paint drying on a wall. Sometimes
they're good people. I swear they don't do anything bad. They're just not
interesting at all. So yeah, I get that. That's that's good.
Well, if you've got if you've got a good answer, and I'm sure
I'm sure some of our wonderful viewers do, remember throw them in the comment
section, give us your best answer, and then come back here next week
for the host to reveal the top three. So I love this little segment
that we're doing now. Um, there's always fun stuff and uh, we
have a we have a good whacky bunch of people that watch this show,
Tom, and they always come up, what was your answer? You know?
If if God favors humans, you know, why why are we so
squishy? Okay? And I mean this literally think about it. Okay,
Like with with a very small change to our genetic code, we could be
just like a heck of a lot stronger, you know, I mean,
just like physically in the sense of like things wouldn't hurt us, you know,
and so like why why not just have just stronger bones? Even,
like why not just have like less like stuff that's so you know, like
one poke to the heart and it's like done. You know, like the
brain cannot take a lot of trauma, Like why not just be a little
bit stronger? God, Like, I don't know what that's fair, that's
fair? But there all those people, you know, you see the people
who get in the action. It's like the rod went through here and like
up through his brain. He's okay, yeah, right, but he's part
of this case study because now he you know, he doesn't remember what the
left side of his bodies do, right, right, right? Yeah.
And that's another issue too, like why why is the body? The body
is just terrible. Honestly, it is not well designed. It is it
is crap. Uh yeah, if you don't know that already, folks,
um, you might just be younger than which which is fine honestly, but
eventually you Yeah, anyway, we're not going into it. We've got a
bunch of calls and we are gonna get to them. And remember, folks,
if you want to call in five one two nine nine one nine two
four two or from your computer at time you dot cc slash call t H.
Let's go out to Texas. We've got John. He him pronouns and
as a theist and wants to talk to us a little bit about atheism,
I think, and how to have a how to have a discussion. So
hey, John, you're on with Secularrity and Tom, what do you got
for us? I hope you guys are having a good day. Thank you
for taking my call. You know this is your show and I appreciate that
you're letting me be on it. Um So, so I haven't watched much
of the show, um but just because I don't have much time. But
I think it's very interesting. But you guys always have a really good response,
So I'm not anticipating that anything I say is going to be new or
it's going to be like a gotcha. But um, I just was gonna
try to have a discussion anyways. Just wanted to progress with that. Um
So, So, first off, and I'm so sorry you probably you guys
probably get this all the time, UM, but I just want to if
you could give me like a really brief description of why you do this show,
like why do you personally do this show? Want to have this discussion
in somewhat of a public spotlight, and then then if I could have a
response to that. Sure, Uh, Tom, what what are your thoughts
man? Why why do you do this? Why why do you do this
in your podcast? And what do you think on that? Yeah? I
think conversations are really the only tool that we have to affect change. And
for myself, um, I come from a certain standpoint of it's interesting to
me to learn where other people are on the spectrum of this crazy thing that
we call life. Um, you know, I made some mistakes, I've
done some good things, and I guess for me participating in things like this
with the opportunity to have a conversation with folks like you John to understand that
the same question on your side, why why do we believe the things that
we believe? And is there a better way that we could all, um,
you know, live our lives so that we can maximize the amount of
good and minimize the amount of bad generally, That's that's the idea from my
side here, So engaging in conversations and trying to understand and effect change.
Yeah, and myself nothing to poke out in that answer. That was really
good. So so for myself, John, there's a couple of different reasons.
One in part, i'd be lying if I said there wasn't at least
a little bit of a selfishness to it. I do just enjoy having difficult
conversations where two people are laying out their understandings of a particular nuanced point and
trying to get to some kind of middle ground. You know, I do
really value that. I do also really value you know, having good reasons
for accepting certain things, is true. Um On top of that, I
would say that there's there is a little bit of that more altruistic feel too,
which is um me being in the place where I am in the United
States, I firsthand have seen some of the absolute horrible things that happen when
it comes to you know, bad epistemology and bad ideologies, and so I
want to minimize that is as much as possible. So yeah, I think
I think both of us Tom and I are kind of in a similar a
similar boat. So okay, well, yeah, those were like really really
awesome responses. I was kind of hoping you'd say something that I that I
could like take a job out, but those were just so I guess like
a lot of times, a lot of times what happens is I think that
people try to have UM. So like the idea of UM God or a
creator existing or not existing UM is strictly in my opinion, I'm not an
intellectual, but it's strictly a a philosophical question, right. So so what
I was going to say that a lot of times you can I can I
jump in, hang on, hang on real quick, John, real quick,
John, Just I just want to jump in real quick because I think
I think in general what you said there is is probably accurate. But there
are certain claims that when made about a god, it wouldn't be just philosophical,
right, Like if explicitly somebody said God made my car start that,
that's something that's very very physical and would very much be something that we could
test, right. But I think a lot of what goes on in these
conversations is more philosophical, but not all of uh sure sure sure, um
okay yeah. So but anyways, what ilse kind of trying to get at
is a lot of people I think try to and this isn't the brunt of
what I was trying to talk about. I don't want think too much time,
um, but a lot of people um or who who have these conversations
it's about like separation of church and states, for example, which I which
I would absolutely agree with. But but but this issue has nothing to do
with uh, you know, the possibility of there being a creator or not
being a creator. Um. You know what I mean, Like I believe
in a creator wholeheartedly. It's it's the most important aspect of my life.
But I absolutely see the point in a separation of church and state, you
know what I mean? So I feel like that should be more in a
political realm, not in like this more philosophical realm. And I know it's
it's it's convoluted. So it's like not entirely fair for me to say that,
But do you see do you see the point that I'm making? Yeah,
I think I think in a little bit here and and I'm gonna throw
it to you here in a second time to get your thoughts, um in
in part I understand what you're saying about the difference between like a political and
philosophical you know category when it comes to that specific discussion of separation of religion
and government. Um. That being said, I do see how it overlaps
on both sides, and so I don't know that it could exclusively sit into
one category or the other. Um. I do think. I do think
though, again kind of what it sounded to me like the core of what
you were getting at there, John, regarding you know, maybe it's more
important that we discuss with people who are trying to get rid of that separation
of church and state and try and you know, have conversation with them that
convinces them that's not the right path before we go down that route of of
you know, really harping on whether or not their particular version of God exists.
For me personally, the way I look at it is this, if
you're a god believer, if you're a religious person of some kind, or
you have some belief in some supernatural something, you aren't as much of a
threat in my eyes in terms of the general well being of people across this
country and world as the individuals who are actively trying to put in place laws
that specifically target and harmful. Right. And so, if if you're somebody
who if you're somebody who stands up and says, you know, hey,
look I'm I'm all in favor of trans rights. I also happened to be
Jewish, Like, brother, you're on my team. You know you're you're
on my team because unfortunately there are so many others out there, um that
use that religion to to cause such drastic harm. Um. But yeah,
let me let me throw it over to Tom real quick, John, and
then we'll get your thoughts. Okay, Well, well, I just wanted
to do like a really I can I can we or you can say something.
I'm not too but it seems like you know you you have every right
you know, to say what you just said about that. I just kind
of wanted to briefly, um, express my desire that I think these things
should be two separate categories. But it's not that important to me. Could
I get maybe more to like the meat of what I wanted to talk about?
Sure, go ahead, and now let I'll let Tom respond to that.
Yeah, go ahead, okay, Um. So I just I just
wanted to say, I think in modern times, um uh, I think
the assumption is that atheism has the intellectual high ground. Um. And you
know, there's a lot of good reason for that too. And there's a
lot of things that religious people have done um to kind of uh to you
know, to kind of allow that to happen. Um. But I just
wanted to say, I think it's it's it's a lot more uh complex than
a lot of the arguments that atheists make today. So for example, there
there's one group UM on one side, and all they have is their subjective
perception, right, and and they view the world through this. Okay,
So they they these groups of people think think there's more than meets the eye.
They they realize that they're in existence. They realize that they didn't create
themselves. Um. It's it's a complex world that we live in. Um,
it's a complex world within ourselves, right, and our thoughts and things
like this. So they say, okay, look, I'm not in control
of myself. I didn't create myself. I choose to have the belief,
not the knowledge, but the belief that there is something greater than me,
there's something that created me. Um. There's of course, there's no scientific
objective knowledge to support this, um. But yet this is the beliefs of
that group of people. So then there's another group of people that say,
no, look, this natural world, this world of matter, that's all
that there is. Uh, that's that's all that there that there can be
there, there's there's Um, there's no reason to say because if there's anything
more than meets the eye. But but the problem is is that this group
of people, Um, there's no objective scientific evidence to support this claim either.
Um. And I'm speaking in a very broad sense. Um. Yeah,
yeah, no worries. But hang on, hang on talking, Hang
on just a second, John, because you've you've given us a lot of
good stuff there, and I think I think that's worth um just kind of
saying some stuff back because I again, I thought it was a lot of
it was really good. Um, Tom, give us give us your thoughts
on that real quick, and then we'll kick it back over to you.
John. Sure. I think it comes down to John, and I appreciate
that you're coming at this from a really rational standpoint that I think there's there's
variants here, right, But from my perspective, I imagine from SRS perspective
as well, we're not making the claim but like there's nothing nothing out there.
We're just saying we don't know, right, You are You're You're coming
at this from an angle of like you you were born in this certain geographic
erica. I could make a number of predictions based on the zip code you
were born in about your characteristics, one of them being religious views. Sounds
like you're dialing from the US, like, oh, Texas right there,
right, So like the odds that you're not Muslim, there's somewhat high there,
right. I don't want to get into specifically what I am, but
but I wouldn't explicitly, uh say that that's correct statement. Well, so
okay, let me let me shout a little bit, hang on a second.
No, no, no, no, all good, all good,
John, no worries. Just give me a second here, because I thought
I think there was a good bit of stuff that um you had said that
I do think is worthwhile to just kind of touch on a little. Um
one of the things you were making a distinction between the groups of people,
and you were saying, basically, there's this one side that kind of still
has this feeling that there's something else out there, even though they don't necessarily
have, um, you know, the total concrete, you know, solid
bullet point proof for it. And then on the other side, you've got
these people who are like saying, oh, no, it's probably not that
thing, you know, um, but they don't have anything like hardcore solid
proof that, like says counter And I think that's a really interesting point.
And the reason that I say that is because there are so many things for
every single one of us right here right now, Like I guarantee this,
Okay, there is something that you don't believe in, John, and somebody
else in your life does and they don't have any good reason to believe it.
And you know that, you know that the evidence is not there to
be accepting the fact that leper cons are writing unicorns every Thursday from seven pm
to nine pm down the main street in your town, right like there,
there is no reason to accept that. But somebody out there believes that.
And my question for you is, did you ever once ask yourself if you
had that concrete proof that disproved that, and most likely not, So go
ahead, don't I get what you're saying? So I would say that the
idea of there being a creator or not a creator, it's by definition it's
a lot more abstract than some thing as literal as a leprocn riding unicorn,
right, So that's a that's a that would be a part of material existence.
So it's it's a little bit different than saying something created me and that's
my ultimate truth. Right, So that's that's fair. But the issue is
if you if you make something so ambiguous, if from the beginning by definition,
something is so ambiguous as to be indistinguishable from all of these other things,
then you're in the same boat as the unicorn and the LEPrecon. You're
in that exact same boat because what you have is on one side, you
have something that is extremely well defined that has absolutely no supporting evidence, and
on the other side, you have something that is so ambiguous that either anything
out there could be evidence or you just have nothing. And so again you're
you're kind of in that same boat, right, So um yeah, so
yeah, I know I would disagree with you because it's kind of just an
unfortunate well unfortunate or fortunate you know, we don't truely understand. But the
I guess the hard reality is that you know, we the objective truth,
objective reality. Um, it's gonna be abstract. Regardless of what that reality
is, it's gonna be abstract. You know, I didn't invent that.
I didn't decide that. Um. You know, however, the truth with
a capital t um actually uh is uh, it's gonna be pretty darnick abstract,
right, So so we can't just say, oh, it's abstract.
So therefore, um, you know, because because whether there's a creator or
not a creator, we are dealing. This is a discussion of the abstract.
So I just I don't really like that argument of saying, oh,
if something is abstract, then you know that just isn't gonna work, do
you know what I mean? Yeah, real real quick, Tom, I'm
sorry, I know, I know, just just real quick, because what
I said wasn't that it was abstract, right. It wasn't that it just
is ambiguous. It is that, by by design, it is purposefully so
abstract or ambiguous as to make it almost impossible to fully distinguish if something is
actually in support or against it. Like when people say things like, well,
God is just love, Well that's nonsense, because we understand what love
is. At least to a degree. Love is still ambiguous and abstract,
but at least has defining characteristics. And when you just interchange other ambiguous things
with that, that's where I think the difficulty comes in. But I'm sorry,
I've been talking too much. Let let me let me let Tom come
in for a second. No, I think you guys hashed it out like
they were just if you're making the words meaningless, like you just keep going
down and say God's God's just whatever, like okay, Like sure, but
we still don't have really good reasons. I'm with you. Maybe there's something
I don't know, but I'm not going to call the ball right now because
I don't. I just don't have any good reasons. And I've taken enough
hallucinogens to know that you can be tricked pretty easily. Yeah. Man,
sure that's a good point. Sure, so here, I'll ask this question,
So, like what percentage of so here? The reason that I wanted
to talk about this, and I know this is an entirely fair because this
isn't the premise of this show, but it's the premise of the Atheist Experience
show, is that, um, you know, it's it's proved me,
that proved to me that a God exists, Right, that's the premise.
But so what I'm trying to say is that that's, um, that's a
dishonest premise because both arguments, either for a creator or for a lack of
creator, are on even on an even playing field, so to speak.
So does that make sense? Because okay, so yeah, objective truth do
you think? No, just let me ask this question, please, please
please. I feel like I've been pretty respectful to you guys. Yeah,
you've been just flying John, go ahead. So what percentage of objective truth
do you think, uh, you or just the general public uh is aware
of? Like what if you had to put up? I have no idea
and I don't know how to look calculate that. I don't think there's a
way to calculate that. We could. We could, we could wax philosophically
as we sit in our basement smoking dubes, bro, But like that is
unimportant in my opinion, unless you can justify us to why that would be
super important. Well, it's important because the whole the whole importance of this
discussion, does it not? Well you cut out a little bit. Let
me let me clarify just a bit. If the question that you're asking has
to do with the amount of objective capital ty outside of you and me truth
that I tom, you or the collective humanity currently possesses. I just don't
see how that is valuable at all, because if the answer is ninety nine
percent, that tells us nothing about the one percent, can't make any claims.
If the answer is one percent, then it still tells us nothing about
the ninety nine percent and we can't make any claims. So in either boat,
no matter what the amount of knowledge is that we collectively hold, it
doesn't change anything about the knowledge that we don't hold, Like, it's still
not knowledge that we have. Point my point is is that everything that we
think that we see it comes from a subjective perception, that comes from subjective
Okay, so we have somewhat of a grass each individual. I was a
largecraft on subjective experience. But these discussions, so you're cutting in a little
bit in and out, John, I could just be a connection thing.
If you could just say that real quick again, and then we'll probably let
you go here in a set because we've been talking for a good minute and
it's been a good call. But finish up that thought and then I'll let
Tom kind of say some stuff. So so well, I just I strongly
disagree with the premise that that thinking about that about what aspects of objective truth,
we understand what we can comprehend. You know, I disagree that that's
unimportant. I think that's the most important thing. Everything that we understand is
through subjective truths, subjective experience, Right, And then we try to portray
based off of that some sort of objective reality. And you're saying that that
doesn't matter, But then how can we have a kind of discussion if that
doesn't matter? Isn't that the whole point? Well? In fairness, what
I said specifically was that the amount of objective truth that we don't currently possess,
how large or small that is, isn't important for the objective truth that
we do possess or for understanding that objective truth we don't possess. Does that
make sense? Like if we don't if we don't know fifty percent of a
book, we can't make any claims about that book if we if we,
on the other hand, don't know only one percent of that book, guess
what we still can't do about that one? For said, so it just
doesn't matter, Okay, Well, it definitely matter. It definitely matters.
So for example, if we could say, oh, we only know one
percent of and I mean I mean consciousness, I mean time space. If
we only understand I would say it would be point zero zero zero counts of
zeros. And if that is true, then we are inevitably on a level
playing field with our adversary, with our with our intellectual adversaries. When having
the discussion about a creator or a lack of a creator, does that make
sense? No? No, no, no. So it's like, it's
the premise that you're talking about. It sounds like your thing is I you
disagree with the premise that you have to provide evidence for a claim to believe
that claim. Right. The atheist experience isn't making the argument of we believe
this negative claim. They're saying nothing, right, I have no reason to
believe the thing that you're saying. So you I can just make all these
things like the reason why your your argument doesn't make sense. It's the same
reason as if I believe any other thing. I think it's Hercules in Zeus
and like all of that. Why does that not make sense? Like it
can the atheists not say, like I need evidence for this right? It's
this it's the same thing. Of course, of course you can say that.
Yeah, no, that's totally fair. But what I'm saying is that
you have a subjective truth that isn't backed by objective truth. I have a
subjective truth that also isn't backed by an objective truth. So I'm just trying
to say we're on an even playing field. That's the only person. No.
No, But because I'm not making a we're not making a positive assertion
about something, right, right, So you don't need we don't need to.
I don't need to prove something that I'm not trying to prove. I'm
not trying to prove anything. We're not have not saying the same thing,
just swapping out X. You're not saying I believe X. Yeah, And
my response to that is I believe negative X. Like that isn't necessarily If
if that were the case, I would agree. But if the case is
one side says I think leprecrons are writing unicorns down the main street of my
town from seven to nine pm, and the other side says, I don't
believe that. Here's what I don't believe. I don't believe unicorns are writing
Like I'm not saying that. You just haven't given me any any of these
unicorn videos. But I think honestly, John, I just ask one more
question. I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah, no, go ahead. We've
been on a call for a bit, but yeah, finish up here and
we'll go on now. So are you not making the claim for a lack
of a creator? Then I take the stance, And this is me personally,
John, this is not everybody, Okay, I personally take the stance
to say I accept the negative claim that God does not exist. For every
version of God I have ever been described, every single one out there fails
logically or does not have any evidence to meet the burden of proof. Is
it possible that there is a version of God out there that ontologically one hundred
percent exists that I have never heard of. Yes, yes, that is
possible. I leave that open. But every single version of God that I
have ever been described, I take that hardcore stance of saying I do not
accept that it exists, and I do believe that I have reasons to point
to for that, whether it's whether it's a logical inconsistency or a just lack
of any you know, determining evidence that would push it over that line.
So and that's jets that again, that's just to me. Maybe not everybody
takes that, so maybe it's Yeah, it sounds like maybe the issue is
that we agree a little bit more than dreeless, which is often the Hey.
But that's good, John. I think that's a great faking place to
stop. Man. I love ending on a high note and some agreement.
So thank you so much, by the way, John, and please do
call us back in next week or in the future, because I think this
was a good discussion. So yeah, maybe you can delve deeper into um,
like what you were just talking about of like why you dispute all those
Yeah, yeah, I'd absolutely love to do that. But yeah, I
appreciate you guys. This is great. You guys have good lines. Thanks
to you, John, Yeah, we do. That was good. That
was a good way to start this show. I always love a call like
that, um and I do. I think I think he's right. I
think there is oftentimes more, you know, both sides, both both Interlockets
agree on than disagree, and I think it's valuable for us to point that
out. You know. Yeah, I think the only disagreement there is like
how much we we agree? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you agree.
We're just trying to God, come on, you're with us here we're gonna
disagree to agree. Wait a second, well, we still have open lines,
folks. So remember if you have some awesome thoughts and you want to
get in today, you can do it very easily five one two nine two
four two from your phone or from the computer Tiny dot CC slash call t
H. And before we grab those next calls, I have got to tell
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I give you permission, and again I apologize to the YouTube. So let's
go and grab another call before all of the mods in the chat start sending
me hateful messages. We actually have a super cool call coming to us from
California. Matt he him has a little bit that he wants to talk about
a pretty cool organization. I think, Hey, Matt, what's what do
you got for us today? Hey, thanks for having me on and thanks
for saying that I'm a super cool call that makes me feel super cool.
Good good. Well, yeah, I'm I'm Matt. I'm with the I'm
a national organizing manager for the Secular Student Alliance, and thank you so much
for having me on to talk about our Secular Student Alliance National Conference. It's
coming up in Saint Louis on June sixteenth through eighteenth, so and less for
the month. It's going to be at the University of Missouri, Saint Louis.
And this is our first conference back in three after three years of lockdown.
Wow, we have a really amazing lineup. I'm really I'm really proud
of our lineup with speakers including of course our own students seekers from a number
of campuses around the country. But we've also got Senator Megan Hunt, she's
as Nebraska state Senator and atheists out in proud atheist in there in Nebraska.
We have from around our secular communitor community. We have Andrew Seidel, Sarah
Levin, Sam McGuire of American Atheist, Brian Silva of American United for Separation
Church and State. We've got really like a really pretty amazing lineup, like
I said, I'm quite proud of. And this is an opportunity not just
for students. You know this. Of course, we're the Secular Student Alliance
where we're focused on students, but we have our community members from around our
secular community joining and our activist partners. You know, not everybody in our
lineup, not everybody coming summer at THEIST two. And there are allies just
as you were talking about. Um, if somebody is right alongside with me
defending trans rights and defending the semporary of church and State, I don't care
what else you believe, you're my ally. And so we have this very
excited about this conference. Um. Like I said, it's June sixteen through
eighteenth, and our deadline to register though is this Wednesday, is May twenty
fourths. So if you're interested in going, go to Secular Students dot org
click on our twenty twenty three National Conference tab and get all your information.
And we do have some travel grants still available, so if you get it
in real quick. If you're a current student, we can also be able
to travel plance. But that's why it's still so far. Is that is
freaking freaking awesome. And yeah, if any of our viewers out there are
not familiar with the Secular Student Alliance, first off, there's actually some really
cool ACA shows where they did them live with some local SSA chapter I believe,
So go check that out, super super great episode. But also please
go out there and look this organization up, you guys again, Secular Students
dot org. It is an absolutely phenomenal, phenomenal group of people nationwide who
are fighting for some real, really great things. Um, and we need
all the help we can get. Um. We won't keep you on too
long, Matt, but tell us what is one of your favorite things about
working with the SSA. Thank you, and you know, thanks for that
ringing endorsement. I think, hands down, my favorite thing about working with
SSA is getting to know and helping to develop the leadership skills of just really
amazing numbers of our secular community. You know, we really like to be
We're not just at universities. We are at high schools, we are at
middle schools, we're even making for reas into elementary schools, and we are
away for secular and just you know, kids and students that want to question
their religious beliefs. We're a place like we're we're at home for you to
do that and have that open discussion. And the leaders that emerge are becoming
leaders in our secular community, in our broader activist community, and so just
being able to be a part of that is what I love, and that's
you know, that's why we're having this conference to help develop that. And
then also I want to give a quick plug for our scholarships program, because
we are we have our scholarships applications open. It's the link for that is
right next to the conference link on our website Secular students dot org. And
please apply for our our scholarships. And that's for any activist who's involved in
depending the separation of church and state as well as supporting our secular values and
a broad and a broad wage range of ways. Sorry, hey yeah,
heck yeah, Well one more time, Matt, before we kick you off,
give us, give us those dates, give us that website, tell
us where it's going to be and uh and and hopefully the audience will just
be packed full of talk heathen an AXP fans. So yeah, yeah,
thank you so again. It's June sixteenth through eighteen in Saint Louis, Missouri
or the date at the University of Missouri Saint Louis campus. And then the
register registration deadline is May twenty fourth. Is this Wednesday? See, you've
got to get your registration in before me twenty fourth. We also, like
I said, have those travel grants available. If you put on that application,
we'll reach back out to you about how we can help you get there
if your currency. Heck, that is awesome, Matt. Well, thank
you so much for calling us today. Man. Again, I think the
SSA is an absolutely wonderful organization, and I'm glad after three years of not
being able to do this in person, you guys are getting back at it.
So thanks so much, Matt. I really appreciate y'all. Thank you
alrighty man, Yeah, that is good. What do you what do you
think about that? Tom? Is there a need to have this secular Student
Alliance? I mean, why why should that be in schools? Why is
that important? Because the alternative the default is like that, there's so many
other organizations that rally around this, and I think to John's point earlier,
it's like it's like really difficult to rally around a called It's like probably not
really like what are you saying about separation of church and state? There you
go like that that's an issue that we just need to do because you don't
every It's like John was saying, we all agree on this thing. We
don't want everybody with all these different view saying it needs to be mine.
And here in the US we have that to some degree, like the default
got on the money and all this nonsense. It's difficult, but I think
we all agree did we want? Did you? Whether you believe the creator
thing or not, it still doesn't mooove the needle, I guess, right,
right right, And again we are all big fans here of separation of
Church and State. Again, folks, an absolutely wonderful organization if you can
please go out there and support again Secular Students dot Org. So yeah,
we're always big fans of working with other wonderful organizations like them. So now
I have to let you all know about another wonderful way you can support us
here at talk Heathen and the ACA. You can support us on Patreon tiny
dot cc slash Patreon t H, and you could get your name read out.
We always read the top five every single time are doing this awesome show.
So if you want to be in those top five, you know how
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ACA has this awesome channel that houses all of these wonderful shows in audio podcast
form only at tiny dot cc slash ae N Podcasts. And so if you
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can also become part of the Talk Heathen community in our fan run facebook page
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And if you have thoughts or would like to engage in those conversations.
That is a great place to do it. And in case you didn't know
this talk, he then has a TikTok and we will actually be going live
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show starts at one pm Central. Go check us out on TikTok, you
guys, and if you're not already subscribed, go ahead and do that because
that helps us get the message out there. I think we had Richard god
be first. Actually jos So, Yeah, great dude, And we always
love when Richard is hanging. So we've got a couple of other calls,
folks, but we still have open lines. And maybe Tom said something and
you just flat out disagree and you think, oh my god, stand up.
I had to pick on you a little bit. I don't think anything
I said was flawed to any right, that's right. Well, we are
gonna go down to Florida. We've got Nathan he him pronouns. It sounds
like you've got some evidence for God. Now how are you today? You're
talking with secularity and Tom, how are you doing? Pretty good? Pretty
good? All right? Okay, I usually watched this show, but I
you know, usually I see Matt on there another the atheist experience. I'm
speaking UM, and I got tomm and what was your name? Well,
I'm talking to secularity, but you can call me SR even simpler. Okay,
I want to talk about something. UM. You know, it's a
it's a little deeper than what we calls like evidence, because I don't really
use that word a lot. It's you know, but I'll use it because
there's different kinds of evidence, like material evidence and different things like that,
and usually there are circular arguments and um, and nobody gets anywhere with it.
And usually uh. That was where I was at for a very long
time until I started getting into instinctual evidence and that word extinctual. I got
on more and more because I realized that when I'm in a position of extreme
fear or danger, um, whether it's medical, legal, whatever the case
may be, if somebody had a gun to my ahead, I mean,
God forbid. But in those moments, those moments, I would one hundred
percent refer to God. I would go to, oh my God, or
help me God, or thank you God for my life being saved or whatever
it was. So I just think that on a deeper level, that that
is evidence for God, and I think everybody has that level. Everybody goes
to that place, and to pretend that they don't is being disingenuous. I
think. I mean if okay, yeah, hang on, hang on just
second, hang on, just second, because I think you yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think I think that's a good bunch of stuff
right there. For sure, Um, Tom, what are you? What
are your thoughts on that? Just kind of first first glance. Don't you've
been there? Right? That's are like what he's talking about, that experience,
Like I like how you list out legal, medical, Like, Man,
I'm sorry for what's going on, Nathan. Yeah, everybody. I
mean there's scary things in life, you know, and life. Sure,
sure, you're giving us a concept that I think we can all Yeah,
yeah, we all we all experienced these things subjectively. Let's be let's be
like sincere and really really you know, honest, because we can go and
serve is about evidence for God in the Bible and all that stuff. I'm
not even interested in any of that because I think those are just words and
making noises, you know. I'm thinking more on a deeper level. Sure,
Nathan, do you feel as if your stance. Let's just say,
I mean, we could call it an argument, just just a general term,
right, just your stance on that right that you know you've had that
experience, you know so many other people have had that experience. Do you
think your stance is at all? Weekend? If somebody says they have that
similar experience, but instead of calling to God, they call to something else
specific, do you think that changes your view? I think I don't think
the word matters. I don't. I think whatever they're they're they're saying,
it's But what if the claim that they're making is mutually exclusive to the other
claim that you're making, Like you say God, but they say Whosi what's
it? And whosie swats it? Actually is an evil goat that sits in
the clouds? Right? So like what if what if that moment for somebody
else is mutually exclusive and contradictory to your door moment like that sor but we
still go there, don't we? We all still isn't that? That?
Isn't that a problem because they're going to a place that is completely counter to
what you're going to, and you're trying to use that experience of you going
to that other place as justification for the existence of this thing. Yeah,
yeah, Nathan, I gotta tell you, like along these same lines,
if when you get when it's like really like I'm talking, you're kidnapped or
something something like real severe, a lot of people shit their pants. Can
we make the claim then, right that there's some shit. God is like
the thing that we're really praying to at the end of the day. It's
all about shit. Hang on. I don't want this to go towards spear
and anxiety and being attached to that. It can happen in a good way
as well, like when a baby is born and you're like, oh my
God, thank you guys. Usually people say the word God, and I
just find it funny that atheists say the same thing. Yeah, but Nathan,
are you no? No? And yeah yeah, Hang on just a
second though, Nathan, because um it's it sounds like you you you know,
you're calling to us today at least from Florida. And I guess I
wonder how much time have you spent in Kenya? You know, have you
spent a lot of time in Thailand or uh maybe with you know, Aboriginal
individuals over in like Australia and stuff, because I think you would find that
that experience that you're talking about is one that is very, very localized.
And when you go to other places where people have different belief systems just kind
of embedded in their culture in a similar way that Christianity has been embedded in
the United States culture in various ways. Like you're going to find that their
stories are all similar too, in that bit. But like, again,
it's completely contradictory to yours, right, So, like You've got somebody out
there who has lived his whole life in Pakistan and his response is Inshallah,
you know if Allah wills it right, So he doesn't. He doesn't say
anything about God, That's what I'm saying. But the claim the right.
I understand that you're getting very hung up on the words. I'm already pass
that though, Nathan, I'm in the same boat with you of saying yeah.
A lot of times people will use a slightly different terminology to get at
an overall concept that they're trying to discuss. Okay, But the problem is
not that the word is different. The problem is that the concept that they're
trying to encapsulate with whatever word they're using is contradictory to the concept that you
are trying to encapsulate with whatever word, and you are both having the exact
same experience that you says puts your side above, puts it on top in
terms of being accurate. And all I'm trying to say is that if one
person has that, if two people have that exact same experience but are both
pointing to contradictory things, we cannot use that experience for justification for either side.
That makes sense, Tom, Do you do you think I'm kind of
getting at something here or what are your thoughts on that? And we'll pass
right back to you. Nathan. Yeah, Nathan, I'm just in the
same event, like he's talking about two different things. Just imagine like this.
I think what you're saying is that this happens on a human level,
and I agree, right, But then depending on where you're born and all
these other factors, what's jammed into your head, you go, I'm choosing
this one right. It's like a spider web of different things that it can
get to. And I don't think we're saying that there's some like anti God
that were it could. No. I feel the same thing. I just
don't have that that thing's like, oh, it's like it's a god and
lives in this guy Beard, et cetera. Right, not that I'm saying,
that's what you're saying. Have you ever been in a traumatic situation?
And what was the very next thing you said when you got out of that
situation? When you work fine? Yes, goodness, holy shit, Yes
I have, and holy shit. I've also said other things. Yeah,
you're down to the ship down. Maybe I made a point. Yeah,
yeah, calm down, Nathan, calm down. You're getting a little excited.
And I don't think it's necessary. And reason I don't think it's necessary
is because, like the first call that Tom and I took today, like
John was actually in agreement with us a lot more. And I really do
feel like Tom and I are, you know, like seventy five percent of
the way there with you. It's just this last little, specific, nuanced
point. And I guess what I'm getting at is it sounds to me like
this whole time, basically you have said that there there is this thing inside
of all the people's all over the worlds now, in the past and forever
in eternity, where there's just this little wiring that every so often in these
difficult situations, we cry out to something that is bigger and stronger and more
cool and awesome than we are. And I don't think Tom and I are
disagreeing at all on that. I just think what we are saying is that
it seems to be the case that that doesn't actually point towards any one answer
because of the fact that every time that we run this experiment, we get
not only different results, but contradictory results, whether people are using the same
term or not. And I think that's the part that we're having difficulty kind
of kind of getting the nuance out between us, because again, I think
for the most of what you've said, dude, like we're on board.
It's just that last little step where you say this experience proves my thing,
I don't think it does. And one of the reasons I point to is
specifically because that experience supposedly proves something else that is contradictory one hundred percent to
what you believe. And that's the reason if we run the same experiment and
we get completely contradictory results, maybe not the best thing to tell us one
way or the other. Right, Yeah, Well, time all you said,
run the same experiment. You cannot run the same real life experiment over
and over as we can die on a motorcycle. You can't keep all up.
Are you telling me that somebody having a traumatic car crash is different from
somebody else having a traumatic car crash? Like, yeah, it's not the
exact same, you know, Fiat car that got smashed by the eighteen wheeler,
But like a head a head on collision is a head on collision.
Like you know, traumatic events happen all the time, and to argue that
they're exactly the same, of course as silly and not at all what I'm
saying. But I would argue you've basically this whole time been saying that those
arguments are similar enough, because they would have to be to prove the point
that you're trying to make, Like those traumatic moments for people when they cry
out to a deity would have to be similar enough so that you could put
a circle around it and go, this is evidence for my thing. So
again, I really believe we're in the same boat there, Nathan. It's
just that you take the extra step to say that this does positively confirm a
particular stance that you have have and all I'm trying to say is it doesn't
seem to be the case if when doing the same thing over and over and
over, we constantly get different and contradictory result. And I'm going to let
you say some more stuff, Nathan, but then I promise I'm going to
shut up a bit because Tom has not talked. But give us another thought.
I'll kick it back to Tom. You're saying for me, Yeah,
go ahead, Okay, Yeah, I listen. I understand what you're saying,
but I think there's a bit of fallacy there because what you're saying is
the same experiment. I'm still confused about that because if you did run an
experiment where ninety nine point nine percent of people that ended up in a major
car collision, the ninety nine point nine percent, everyone would say, oh
my God, Saint God, I didn't They would utter those words I and
if you doesn't have to be God, or it could be something. But
they're going to think whatever source that they I don't like the word belief,
but whatever source that they feel. Okay, And that is a real thing,
and I think atheists are in denial of that real thing. Okay,
That's all I'm saying. No, you can't say hang on, hang on
a second, hang on a second, hang on a thing. That's some
good stuff. I'm sure Tom has some stuff to say. Go ahead,
go ahead, Tom. No, I just I don't know. I feel
like we're just we're just going round and round on this. You're saying,
it's not the word, but it is the word. It's not the word,
but it is the word. I think we're not them. I'm not
denying it. We're Yeah, you can have the experience and you say,
oh my goodness, holy shit, that was wild, right, and then
you move on, Yeah, what what now? Let me grant you that.
What now? Where do we go? Well? I don't understand why
are you saying, well, why are you saying holy shit? Oh my
goodness? If in fact life was not divine? If if if none of
this made any matter, and it doesn't and we believe, Am I not
a divine Yeah? Am I not allowed to call out to unicorns? Like
even though I don't believe that they exist? Can I not say? Holy
unicorn? But is that like silly? Because that's being stilly though you don't
do Why is that? Why is that? Whoa hold up? You don't
get silly. Hold up, Nathan, you don't know me. You don't
know me. I very silly, and see, like, what does it
matter? Is what I'm getting at. If if anybody in a time of
crisis calls out to anything else, that individual action does not in any way,
shape or form tell us anything other than the most basic thing, which
is in a similar situation, human beings tend to cry out in such a
way, like, but that's not surprising. Like you go anywhere in the
freaking world and kick somebody you know, in their ass and they're probably gonna
go owes it. That doesn't mean that there's there's some like there's some outside
force that is just pain or ow right, Like it's just an expression.
It doesn't mean anything more than that. Yeah, But I think that's a
little And I use the word silly because right now times are getting silly,
and I think that we're living an easy time, and you know, when
times gets hard, like during stressful events World War two, whatever, it
was, more people started connecting back to God. And I think that's we're
kind of Yeah, I just feel like that. I just feel like that
argument doesn't work in your favor, Nathan. Is the problem, Like I
feel like what that says is that this ideology is something that when things are
actually going well, it's not necessary to make things go better, and therefore
it in that sentiment, it just feels to me like it's a security blanket
or a crutch. And I would probably agree with you. I just don't
think that that works for your argument. You know, you know, God
forbid anything happens to anybody, But when it's something happens, they I can
guarantee you they're gonna say thank you God or oh my God, and thank
you. That's you know, lepre Coin. That's fair. I mean,
I think that's fair that you have that assumption. I think the issue is
whether or not you have any proof for that right. And again, I'll
use this word again a because I love it, be because you used it.
But I think it's insanely silly to assume that somebody who grew up their
entire life in Delhi is going to, in any way, shape or form,
say the same say the exact same phrase that you do. And I
think not recognizing that is really doing a disservice to your own your own feelings
and beliefs. I know you said you didn't like the word belief, but
I think I really do, Yeah, I really do think that that should
be something that should shake your confidence in that feeling, because if I had
an experience, and then claimed that that experience, you know, was the
the reason that I accept this particular thing over here, and then anybody else
I knew had a similar experience that went to something different, I would stop
saying that that experience is a good reason to believe, because apparently it can
lead us to two contradictory results. So but with all that, Nathan,
we are we are going to let you go. I did still think that
was a really good call, man, and please do call us back.
I know we didn't get to hash out everything, and unfortunately sometimes on these
shows don't you don't always have a bunch of time to really dive into it.
But I did think it was a really good call, Nathan, UM.
And so I do hope you give us a call back in the future,
because I like, I like good calls like that. You know,
I like disagreeing, um, but but I also like to, you know,
I like when we find out we're a little bit more on the same
page something, you know, that just makes me good. UM. But
yeah, any any other clothes in thoughts on that Tom before we we grab
some other calls here, say thanks, thanks, Nathan, You're just like
John. I feel like we're just trying. We disagree about how much we
agree about this thing. Yeah, and then a word or two. Yeah,
but we're there, We're with you. Yeah. Yeah, and again
I think we suck about the money problems or whatever's going on. Yeah,
hopefully there's not too much too much bad stuff going on for you, man.
And again there's not hit that donate button. And that's right, tiny
dot cc shink hall thh, shameless plugs. I love it. I love
it. I love it. I love it. Well, let me get
through a couple of wonderful things here, like we have another super chat from
Ariel Elliott. It looks like this person is a new member by the way,
too, so five dollars super chat. Thank you so much. And
they say, I say, oh my God, when something unbelievable happens,
I can't believe it happened, just as I can't believe in a god.
I like that comment. Ariel, thank you so much. I really enjoy
that. And we are actually about to read out the top five patrons,
Tom, can you see those? Do you have those? I sure do.
Okay, hang on just a second, let me let me say some
wonderful things here and we will go right into that. So first, folks,
make sure right after this show, right freaking after this show three pm
Central time today, the newest episode of the flagship show of the ACA the
nonprofits will be airing live tiny dot cc slash hit NP. And I think
I've even been told in the past that if you just stay year at the
Talk Heathen livestream, it'll just automatically put you over there. But if it
doesn't, tiny dot cc slash y t n P three pm Central time today,
that's right, the nonprofits, the flagship show, and also the ACA
wants you to know what is going on in our community, and for that
we have an updated website, so it is super duper easy. Just go
to www dot Atheist hyphen Community dot org and you can learn all about the
organization, it's policies and how you can get involved. And we are always
looking for wonderful volunteers and we've actually gotten a few really good ones over the
last like few months, So thank you all and anybody else out there.
That's interested like it's a it's a really great group of people. The crew
does a lot more than just sitting there waiting for the crewcam, and you
get to hang out with them. And but finally, we want to hear
from you. We want to know what you liked, what your thought was
effective, and most importantly, what you think we can do better. So
just send us an email at TV at Atheist hyphen Community dot org and tell
us all your thoughts or post them in the comments below. We take both
so we look at them. Um, you know, mean things, mean
tweets or or nice tweet whatever, whatever you want to do. Um,
Tom, you got that list ready? I have the list right here,
folks, let's do it. The top five patrons of the week. Here
we are top five patrons, starting with number one. I have a quick
question. How do you become a top patron? Oh? You just go
to uh it's very easy. You just go to tiny dot cc slash patreon
t h yeah, slash patreonh Okay. So if anybody wants to be on
the top of the list, they can be doing that right now, right
and getting ready for next week. And don't turn that dial because number one
we got Dingleberry Jackson, Dingleberry Jackson, thank you for having us read your
name on the screen here. Number two AAMA, it could be am am
a you know who you are, hopefully Number three, Oops All Singularity,
thank you for the fantastic donation. Number four, Devon Belgian. If I'm
saying that correctly, thank you, Devon Devor. It was Devoor Belgian.
Number five. At number five, we've got Kallive Helveti, Klaive Helveti.
Thank you so much for your donations. Reminds me of that flick like a
number Slevin remember, oh yeah, Levin Klevra was his name. Fantastic and
I think speaking of that flick an honorable mention. Paul Sherman. That's right,
Paul Sherman of Paul Sherman Fame, wwwbot Paul Sherman dot com. Thank
you, Paul Sherman. That's right. Folks. So if you want to
hear one of the wonderful hosts here on talk, he then stumble through your
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M. I really do like Oops All Singularity. I just it's clever.
It's clever, you know. That's nice. Um, well, we have
a couple of other calls. Let's grab another one. We've got Jay no
pronouns given, has a question about a couple of different ideologies and education and
stuff. Um, yeah, let's do it. Hey, Jay, you're
talking with Tom Benson and secularity. What you got for us? Oh,
might not be there. That's okay. We'll just send you back to the
queue for a second, Jay, and we will be looking out for you
in the future. And that's fine because we have some other good calls.
Let's go talk to Rob out in Colorado. He him pronouns uh. Sounds
like you're asking about fist reading the Bible and and maybe not maybe not catching
everything that it's trying to say. How are you, Rob? Yeah,
I'm doing pretty good. How you guys doing, Oh pretty good? Pretty
good? Yeah? What you got for us today? Yeah? So basically,
I was a CIS for a very long time, Like all my life,
I was indoctrinated from the kid. You know, my parents, my
grandparents, um and so on and so forth. Um and UM, I
guess I can uh, I guess I can contribute my atheism to my pastor
for offering seminary classes to me and where I actually had to actually do some
deep studying in the Bible. And along the way, UM, I was
also taking some online courses with biology and you know, learning about different things
that I never was really exposed to the Christian in science. You know,
my parents never taught me by the evolution. UM. Nobody ever really talked
about it around me in the school I went to. Just like most of
the schools, they kind of you know, the dialey dally around it.
They don't really teach it properly. So I just started, uh shout out
to Fort Valkai. It's one of my favorite biologists by the way, right,
I just wanted to say, like, that's what actually put me on
my journey to atheism is learning those things first um. And it's not really
you know, like I can't learn that the Earth was created through the birth
of the Sun and all the other planets in our solar system and then believes
that, you know, God created the Earth first and then the fourth day
he created the Sun like it. It's like so like I just don't I
guess what I'm trying to say. I don't see how others seas can't come
to that real ovation. And then when you get deeper into the Bible,
Like my church's never even told taught me the story of jeff though I had
to actually learn that on my own by acting style, you know, like
they like to keep that one a little hidden for some weird reason. I
don't know why. But right, right, Well, Abraham didn't actually go
through with it. Jeffa did so, right you? Ye? Well,
well give you a second, ye rob Tom, what what are your thoughts
on this? Man? Like? Why why did you? Uh? Why
did you think the what? Why? Why do you think it's so difficult,
you know, for for people to get away? Oh that's my bad.
I started talking and then I wasn't sure where I was going. It
doesn't matter, folks. The point is that I know, for me personally,
Um, the reason that it was so difficult to see a lot of
those problems that you were talking about, rob Um, is in part something
that you touched on, you know, real quickly, which is you just
weren't exposed to it for for so long, you know, And that in
a lot of times is purposeful. It is it is something that certain ideologies
will do in an effort to make it more difficult to push back on them.
Right, it's something that insulates you from having to actually put in work,
and that actually is really really nice. So it's not it's not just
that humans want an answer for stuff, right. We hear that. A
bunch bunch of people say that, and and that definitely makes sense as to
why a lot of times we go to these supernatural thinkings, um is because
we do like an answer. But you know what we like more than just
an answer. We like an answer that's fucking simple. If it can be
easy, peasy, it's it's great, it's so much better. And when
faced with another answer that is a slightly more are difficult, it's honestly,
it just kind of feels natural for us to want to go back to that
easy one because it doesn't take as much work to get there. Right,
But I just don't understand, Like, why can't we just ask the question?
All right? We have the question where did all this come from?
Who create? Ye? We don't know, We don't have no natural explanation
for it. Why can't we just leave it it then until we find one?
Yeah? And I think, like, just leave it, like because
like we're born atheist, Like I don't even think atheists should even be like
a term to describe anything like we're just like it should be really feist.
You're you, you just believe like you you're making the claim, not me,
you know, like yeah, and real real quick, I'm gonna I'm
gonna throw it back to Tom here in a second. But um, yeah,
I mean in part, you know, kind of brings us back to
I think our first call, where where we had been kind of asked about,
like why do we do this and stuff? Um, and and one
of those reasons, for sure, results from the fact that, truly my
position is mostly a response to what people are claiming right. And so it's
like, if people out there would just just shut the hell up every so
often and stop trying to hurt other people and take people's rights away for their
belief I probably wouldn't say so much. You know, I probably wouldn't say
as much stuff. It wouldn't be necessary. Like sure, I guess that
technically puts me out of you know, a fun hobby that I do every
so often, But you know, I'll figure something else out, like bird
watching or something. U. But Tom, what do you think why why
is it so difficult sometimes for the believers to see the bad stuff that comes
along with that belief. I don't know. I think the question you're asking
Rob too is like what do we do about it? Right? Because we're
same same team, right, Like, man, how do you talk to
him? Do you talk to him about it? Grandma? Are you gonna
talk to grandma? You're gonna convince grandma that after a living however many years,
that there's actually this No is sorry, they tricked you the whole time.
Nobody wants to feel like that. So it's really difficult to have these
conversations. Yeah. I just like even even talking to people, you know,
like you like to educate them, like, hey, look check this
out, just check check Hey watch this guy, you know why, listen
to what he has to say about evolutions, like like check this out,
like really dive deep into it. It's like none of that matters. But
God, it's just like God. Yeah, And I think about it.
I mean, isn't it comforting when you had God? That was a comforting
thing to some degree. There's there's the goods in the bads, and I
experienced both of them. But I feel it was abuse though. I feel
because like coming coming away from it, you know, like I actually believed
in these hell, like it was a real place for me, you know,
And like now I'm free, Like I'm not scared to die. I
don't want to die, of course, I got a lot to live for,
but I'm not scared of it because I know that there's no bad place
that I'm gonna go and burn for all these like I don't believe that anymore.
And at one time that place was real for me, you know,
the rapture, you know, like when when the news when when my parents
will leave the house, you know, and the news will come on or
something, you know, I rush out. I want to see you know,
I'm a kid, you know, I want to see us maybe maybe
maybe it's today, you know, because nobody knows, that's what the Bible
says. Nobody knows, you know, So like, you know, I
want to make sure I was one of them, you know, Like am
I am? I doing the right thing? You know. It's just you
know, like how can you live? Like I feel so free from living
my life under the thought of my every not just action, but even my
every thought being monitored fighting Fink the wrong thing, burn and I know,
stepping away, stepping away from that Rob just In and of itself, I
think is so is so freeing. Um. And again even though a lot
of us on the outside now can see that as a really terrible experience and
see how much you know, fear and harm and all that other bad stuff
was there, I think you know, Tom is right in that sense where
there is a level of comfort that is often you know, found by these
people that hold these beliefs, and for them that comfort outweighed all that other
stuff. Now I don't think that's the case, but that level of comfort
is something that seems to you know, go beyond all of those other things.
So yeah, I know, I know it's a tough it's a tough
thing for sure, um, but you know that's why we do stuff like
this. And and hopefully if we can have some more good conversations like we've
had a couple today, um, hopefully we can we can get some more
people to h to kind of step away from those harmful things that that's harming
others and themselves. Because I don't think in either scenario it's good. But
we're getting we're getting close to the end. Drob and I think we have
Jay back and we always love talking with our theist friends, So we're gonna
let you go, but thank you so much for giving us a call today,
Rob. I think it was a good one. Yeah, yeah,
it was fun. And but of course you know, we've got that wonderful,
wonderful Facebook group, the fan run discord as well. Uh, and
those are great places to go go hang out, folks. And as another
great place the patreon. Oh snap, oh snap, that's a tiny dot
cc slash Patreon. Thh folks, So shameless plug, shameless plug. Um.
Also, I uh, you know there's another good place to go.
I don't know if you've ever heard of this place, Tom, It's it's
this little little spot called Austin, Texas. And see in Austin, Texas,
the last Sunday of every month, the Free Thought Library opens up its
doors and they are broadcasting live. That's right, May twenty eight, twenty
twenty three. Come on down to Austin, Texas and hang out at the
Free Thought Library. Join us for talk. He then hosted by the wonderful
Forest Valkai and Sophia Spinna. Sophia actually auditioned for the open h came in
for for the open call, and did a fantastic job. And we are
so super excited for her appearance, and then after that the Atheist Experience will
be hosted by Forest Valkai and Jim Barrows. Door is open at noon,
so we hope to see you there, folks. It is an absolutely wonderful
time. It is so so much fun being there, hanging out with people
in person and uh and getting to getting to see the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
And there's actually a lot of wonderful stuff. There's there's a couple of items
there by the way. I don't know if anybody's ever seen this or notice
this. There's a couple of items in the background that has Dan's face on
it. So I'm not going to tell you which one, folks, but
I'm just going to tell you to look next time the live broadcast is happening,
which is actually happening May twenty eight of this month. Pretty little east
eke for you there. Yeah, yeah, I'll give you another one coming
up on the flagship show that we have here. Look for it. Behind
Kelly there's a rock with Dan's face on it. Oh snap, really,
profits that's okay, okay, you will see a rock Dan's face on it.
Well, now, folks, you have homework, so look for that
rock behind Kelly with Dan's face on it, and the next live broadcast on
May twenty eight, be looking be looking for that and sorry Dan about just
like picking on you and the things that you have your face on, but
like, how did you get your face on sometime? It's really I don't
know, it's almost a miracle, Dan problem. Anyway, I think we've
got time for just one more and we are hoping to go hang out in
the fan run discord server at the end of it. So it looks like
we have Jay Colin in no pronouns given. I think I can click the
button. All right, Hey, Jay, you were talking. Hey you're
talking with Tom Benson and Secular Rarity. What what do you got for us?
All right? Tom and Ben? Yeah, the thing is that too.
You you're young kids as far as I'll see you now, as far
as the world is pretty much educated. Who do you think is responsible for
this worldwide education? Is it communism? Is it Christianity? Is it a
slam? Who do you think is responsible for this education worldwide? Sure?
Tom, you want to give us your thoughts and then I guess I guess
it depends on where you live, right, I don't know, keep going.
Yeah, I think because I was. I was looking at this question
Jay before he brought you on, and I think my answer, unfortunately,
is going to suck a little bit. And the reason is because I think
there's I think there's something actually wrong with the question itself. Um, I
don't think there is a codified ideology that either exists currently or has existed in
the past in such a bullet pointed of ways as to like truly be the
thing that is, like what has brought us all the goodness and knowledge in
the world. I think what has done that, though, is a handful
of different things that had that have given us the right path. Right,
so like, for instance, you know, going freaking Aristotle and all his
buddies, you know, a long time ago, just sitting around and doing
nothing but thinking of logical fallacies like that, that process and that epistemology,
that way of coming to understand the world, I think is what's actually underpinning
all of this. I don't know if it's fair to just call that science,
because it's kind of a little bit more. It's kind of the you
know, the underpinnings of science, is what I'm saying. Um, But
yeah, I think that's probably you know, the best, but it's it's
it's not a great answer in the sense like you can't just point to communism,
you know, and say like ha ha that so does does that?
Does that kind of make sense? Jay? Kind of where I'm coming from.
We lost Jay, we might have Jay, Jay, I'll give you
one more account. That's okay, that's all right, we can get you
back in the queue. I mean we're getting Well, what was the question?
I didn't know. I didn't get the question. Yeah, basically the
question was, well, hey, there we are, Jay, we can
hear you again. Okay, so did you hear did you hear what kind
of We both said? Should make sure we're on same page? Who wanted
to know? What's the question? Tom? Tom? Tom Ben Jay,
Hello, I'm sorry, Yes, we can hear you. Yeah, Okay.
The thing is you were somewhat in because I'm from that thought of in,
yeah, which is called Pakistan India. I don't want to go into
a I don't want to go into a discussion about Pakistan or India. And
we're having just unfortunately, Jay, just some some audio troubles um and just
for you know, just to be kind to you, and be kind,
to be kind to all our wonderful viewers and stuff. We are just gonna
move on here, and uh, let's see we've got some good stuff here,
I think, Jay Gait. Sure, Jay, if you can still
hear us, join the Patreon. That's a great way that you can submit
your questions. Write it out. We'll get back to you. Yep,
but we do. We could. You could be at the top of the
list. Remember Dingleberry. You could be the new Dingleberry. Jay be the
new Dingleberry. That's correct, That's correct. And it looks like we got
one. We got another call here. Okay, so hang on, Frank,
because before we pick you up, I want to let you folks know
that if you're sitting around you know sometimes and you're feeling you're feeling like you
just don't know what to do or where to go, and you want to
catch more of the some awesome ACA shows that that happen all over the YouTube's
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Okay, So no more crying, no more complaining, because you can just
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in on that fun. And now we're going to go out to North Carolina
real quick, Frank. No pronouns was given, just we we got just
a few minutes here, Frank. But what it sounds like you want to
talk a little bit about the fine tuning theory or something. What you got
for us, Well, well, um I've called in on the previous occasion
and made a reference to um Alan Gus with the Institute for Events Study at
Press at Princeton, and he had said that the constance the physical, the
constance in physics that pertain to the universe are so precisely calibrated that that it
would be a gazillion gazillion to one, that they were merely a product of
chance and the uh the speakerism I was talking then said, well, the
fine tuning UH theory or hypothesis has been debunked, and okay, I'd like
to hear more about that. Um, you know the particularly you know,
physicists of late have come up with a concept of dark energy and energy inherent
in the universe that is causing the expansion of the universe, and that if
it were off one digit at the seventh decimal place, then the universe would
never have manifested because matter would have other coagulated too much for start plants.
Real quick, Frank, I'm just gonna jump in because I think I might
see where a little bit of the issue is. So. Unfortunately, when
people speak, oftentimes we're not perfect with our wording, right, and individuals
that are at a very high level of education often speak to each other in
very specific, nuanced jargon. Okay, And sometimes when they try to speak
to us that are not so heavily involved in that particular field of study,
they use some words and they say things in a way that doesn't fully explain
what they're trying to say. So I have heard many of many of no
no, no, no, no, no no. Hang on, hang
on, Frank, hang on, Frank, Hey Frank, Hey Frank.
We're having a good conversation. It's only like two minutes and thirty seconds in.
I don't think there's any need for animosity or hostility. But what I'm
saying is that oftentimes when physicists, when those high level academics say things like,
if this thing were changed by blah blah, then this would be the
case, or it wouldn't be the case. Okay, So what they're talking
about is if all of the other constants in the universe are the same today,
if everything else that we know about existence is how it is, and
then we just flip this one dial one click over that screws everything up.
But we don't actually know that another system with slightly different clicks of the dial
could actually work together. Right. So it could be the case that gravity
is tuned just a little bit differently, but the weak nuclear force would also
have to be tuned differently, right. So oftentimes when they say that phrase,
it's not exactly getting the whole bit of information across. Does that make
a little bit more sense though, when you think about it, like that.
Oh, hang on, I'm sorry, I didn't one. Now I've
got your sorry. But also the person with whom I was speaking said,
well, you know you're only referring to one universe and that's not a statistically
significant sample. Well, the universe as we know it is at least thirteen
point seven billion light years across according to the James Hubble deep Field experiment.
But I want to say, well, how many universes do you need?
You know? And also that is intriguing and mystifying to me, as the
multiverse theory is. I wonder if there's indeed any proof per se for the
multiverse hypothesis. I think I think more physicists have stepped away from that in
the most recent years, although I'm not one hundred percent positive on that um
but because because we are getting close to the end and I do want to
have some time for the phaner and discord and stuff. Frank, but let
me let me throw something out to you, okay, and then and just
tell me if you've ever heard of this, Okay, have you heard about
the potential for the discovery of a fifth fundamental force in the universe? Have
you heard anything? Does this ring any bells whatsoever. T Well, the
only thing I really know about that is that Einstein could not come up with
a grand unifying series that he couldn't reconcile gravity mathematically with the weak force,
the strong force, and electromagnetism. Boom. So you are on the page.
Okay, So you are You are on the page, Frank. Okay.
So that is a big deal that there are only four of those,
And it is a super big deal that the weakest of which gravity is the
one that we as the observer, experience more than anything else. It seems
to have the strongest hold on our life, but in fact is incredibly weaker.
Okay, So a couple of experiments recently done smashing some atoms together,
large hadron colliders and so forth. Okay, we may have we may have
been incorrect about the mass of a subatomic particle called a muon mu o n.
This is very, very brand new cutting edge. Oh my gosh,
could shift everything in science. And the reason that I brought all of this
up is just really to say, like a lot of times, where we're
at is a place that has taken a long time to get this level of
knowledge. But the idea that that is the end point for the knowledge is
almost always wrong, right, And that's good. That's good that that's the
case, because it means that we can continue to learn about things and understand
things and find out better answers. The difficulty, I think lies in the
ability for us to say that stuff that we don't know about is just freaking
that. It's a question mark right now, and we can postulate ideas as
to what could be the case, but actually trying to get to any claims
right from the rip just falls flat on its face because it's already a category
of existence that we've said we just don't understand. And I think that is
the most freeing place to be. When you come up to a question mark,
leave it as a question mark until you have good reason to put something
in that box. And that's the thing that I don't want us. I
don't want us to take that next step of saying what this fifth fundamental force
is, because we're not there yet. We think there could be one,
We think it could unify everything, We think it could explain all this dark
matter and stuff, But honestly, we've been trying to figure out about dark
matter and dark energy since like the seventies, I think. But before we
let you go, Frank, let let me get Tom just shout some thoughts
at you. What do you think about that? The fine tuning? And
you know, do we know everything about the universe or what? I don't
know, man, this is this is all this is like Forest FALKEI and
yeah, yeah, yeah, mikey stuff. Yeah, I don't know what
what done? I always what what done? What? What now? Frank?
And I'm not like being combative, Rank. I assume you would have
said the same thing SR would have said if you've known it just now.
I don't necessarily know the argument, but yeah, that's cool. I think
you change your name from SR to pe Professor Elliot because you've very well said.
I don't think I can add anything to that. Thank you yet.
Well, Frank, like I said, we are going to let you go
just because we are close to the end. But please, especially if you
see me on again in the future, please give a call back in a
little bit earlier and and we'll try to get to you, um even sooner,
because I love to have long, long conversations where we can really really
hash things out, and unfortunately we just sometimes are not able to. But
That's okay, folks, because I think it was an awesome show, and
Tom and I are gonna wrap all this bad boy stuff up real quick so
that we can come hang out with you wonderful people in the fan run discord.
That's right, But before we do, I gotta remind you that the
prompt for this week is if God favors humans, why are they so blank?
So fill in that blank for us. Reply in the comments below this
wonderful video, and remember to tune in at the beginning of next week's episode
and you can hear the top three answers, and one of those top three
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Tom, tell everybody real quick where they can find you find us more www
dot however we got here dot com or w dot hooever we go there dot
com we got both domain easy, easy, peasy, and you can hear
Tom say some wonderful stuff. Um. Let's show those beautiful faces, those
hard working crew members that make us look like we know what we're doing.
That right there fo Yeah, it's honestly, it's all the cat the rest
of them don't there. But let's can we get can we get some love
rings? Can we go? Can we get a little bit of I love
it? I love it, I love it, I love it, I
love it. Well, Uh, we definitely have to thank our viewers.
All of you help keep this running. You are the reason that we do
this, UM, and whether you believe or not, if you are an
essential worker, seriously, thank you so much. UM. I know that
these last few years have been a lot and we are still unfortunately not out
of the woods in a lot of ways. UM, but we can all
do some very very simple things and play our part. So if you don't
believe, do remember that this is this is a home for you, This
is a place, and there are so many, so many wonderful pier um.
And I know what it's like to have those moments where it just feels
like the whole freaking world hit you all at once and you just feel like
crap, Um, that's okay, it happened. And just remember that you
don't have to you don't have to suffer in silence. In fact, don't
please reach out to somebody here, Um, hit us up at that email,
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or or or in the ACD. So again, it's it's it's all
that make us want to do this, you know, it's the community.
So without you, we're just sitting in our houses just talking to nobody.
So but Tom, you know how, you know how we like to end
this show. Amen. Well, okay, so what we do is we
do this thing where I say, if you do believe we don't hate you,
and you say, we're just not convinced. You're ready? We got
it all right? Pretty simple, Okay, So if you do believe we
don't hate you, We're just not convinced. We'll see you next time.
We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central.
Visit tiny dot cc slash y t t W and call all into the
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