1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,759 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:44,799 --> 00:00:49,520 Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're recording this on Saturday. And it 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,600 is less than a week since the big news about the Big solves and the 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,520 Colonial Parkway murders case. And I can't begin to tell you how exhausted we 13 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,840 both are. We forget happy Martin Luther King Day to everyone. We hope 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,719 our conversation today about developments in the Colonial Parkway murders, and the exciting news 15 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,120 doesn't overshadow the fact that this is also a solemn day in that regard. 16 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:18,480 With that said, on with the show, it has been a head spinning, 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,480 stomach journeying, heartburnt inducing week. It's been thrilling and amazing. But 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,120 I don't think the two of us ever want to go on social media again. 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,719 We have no choice. We have no choice. But wow, you're 20 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:38,000 sipping out a cup of tea because your voice is about to go out because 21 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:44,079 you've been doing so much media and podcasting, Yes, both Mind over Murder 22 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,239 podcasting, and we'll be appearing on several other podcasts in the coming weeks. 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,640 So there's been a lot going on. As my mom would say, it's 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:02:00,079 been unreal. Everybody who has really shown up on social media to cheer, 25 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,959 to offer kind thoughts about the fact that there have been these wondrous new developments 26 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,039 in the Colonial Parkway murders. Thank you all so much for showing up, 27 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,439 for being happy for us, for asking questions, and for downloading episodes of 28 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:19,960 the podcast. We really truly appreciate it. We would not be doing this 29 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:23,960 without your love and support, So thank you guys, first and foremost, 30 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,759 we want to make sure we say it at the end of the busiest week 31 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,439 of our podcasting career. Thank you very much for being here with us. 32 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:36,960 We appreciate it. We're thrilled again for the Edwards, Nobling and Howell families. 33 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:43,960 They received an incredibly important piece of news about the fact that Alan Wade 34 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:49,400 Wilmer Senior had been confirmed to be the killer of those three individuals. He 35 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,159 is a serial killer. He is a suspect in all four of the Colonial 36 00:02:54,199 --> 00:02:58,919 Parkway murders, and I think it may be very likely that he will be 37 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:05,120 identified as a suspect and ultimately an offender in other unsolved murders in Virginia. 38 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:08,719 Mark my words, I one hundred percent agree with you, and in my 39 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,240 copious amount of free time over the last couple of days, I have been 40 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:20,080 sitting and reworking a timeline based on other unsolved cases around this area and around 41 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,080 the area where Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is known to have spent time. And 42 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:28,120 I think it is very likely that there are going to be other cases that 43 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:31,919 he is involved in. I know there are Virginia State Police cases and FBI 44 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:38,960 cases in Virginia that are being looked at now. Additionally, I can't count 45 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,240 how many other cases people have reached out to us to talk to us about. 46 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:49,319 Most important is that people reach out directly to the Virginia State Police and 47 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,680 the FBI. Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas are not investigators. We can't solve 48 00:03:54,759 --> 00:04:01,080 the Colonial Parkway murders or any other unsolved murders in Virginia dependent on law enforcement 49 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:08,719 to do that important job. So please, if you have any information about 50 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:15,680 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and his activities, particularly in the nineteen eighties and nineteen 51 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,240 nineties, even if you've reported it before, please reach out to the Virginia 52 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:26,199 State Police or the FBI. We need their help and they need all of 53 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,199 our help to provide information which will help position him. As Kristen's saying about 54 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:35,560 timelines, they're trying to do a really complicated thing, which is to build 55 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,959 out a timeline around a man who's dead and died in twenty seventeen at age 56 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:45,600 sixty three, and they're trying to do this thirty something years later. Anything 57 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,879 you know about this man, which can be the most innocuous thing. I 58 00:04:48,959 --> 00:04:54,079 used to dock my boat in Hampton or Gloucester and the Denny Wade. His 59 00:04:54,199 --> 00:04:57,879 boat, a thirty two foot fishing boat was parked right next door, and 60 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,920 I used to see him. There's a lot the things that we want to 61 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,160 get into today that are incredibly important, and that the FBI and the Virginia 62 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,720 State Police need your help, and they need your help now, and please, 63 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:13,040 I want to beg people sending the information to Kristen and Bill is wonderful. 64 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:15,959 And I'm not saying we're not going to take it to the FBI and 65 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,839 the Virginia State Police, but they want to hear from you directly. The 66 00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:23,759 same time, we're seeing people comment on social media posts, not just on 67 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,399 the Colonial Parkway murders and Mind of a Murder Facebook page, but on their 68 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,800 own personal pages. Then people are seeing things. There's nothing wrong with you 69 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,240 commenting about it on your social media page, but for God's sake, copy 70 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:41,199 and paste that if you will, and send it in to the FBI or 71 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:45,199 the Virginia State Police or both. You saying, oh, I knew Alan 72 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:47,959 Wade Wilmer and I used to work with him in his tree business, or 73 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:53,879 I used to know the Wilmer family when I was young. Please send that 74 00:05:53,959 --> 00:05:59,759 information in because remember, if you're placing this serial killer at particular places and 75 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,519 times while the VSP and the FBI are building out their timeline. Even something 76 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,000 as simple as I worked on this project with him, or I used to 77 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,319 hang out at this bar with him, those things place him at locations and 78 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,639 times that may line up with some of the unsolved murders that we're talking about. 79 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:24,399 And it does not have to be an example of you witnessed him doing 80 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,079 something weird or you saw him commit a crime. It really does just need 81 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,959 to be something as simple as we used to hang out at this club together, 82 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,240 we used to get drinks after a day's worth of oystering together. We 83 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,480 just have to be able to place this guy in as many locations as possible. 84 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,759 And as Bill said earlier, we really do appreciate everybody who's sending in 85 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,720 tips and information. We aren't investigators, and the FBI and the VSP have 86 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:57,600 far more resources and far more manpower than two very overworked podcasters who also have 87 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,920 day jobs in addition to that, have so many hours available to us in 88 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:04,959 the day, and we can't follow every lead. We do need everybody, 89 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,680 please to make sure that you send the information in via email or that you 90 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:14,160 call the FBI. I'm going to give that information now, we'll give it 91 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:15,600 again at the end of the podcast, and we'll put it in our show 92 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,000 notes. So to contact the FBI, you call their tip line at one 93 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:26,800 eight hundred call FBI. That's C A L L FBI. You can submit 94 00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:30,920 a tip online at tips dot FBI dot gov, and you can email the 95 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:38,639 Virginia State Police at Questions at vsp dot Virginia spelled all the way out dot 96 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:45,040 gov. Two other quick thoughts real important the public needs to know and all 97 00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:49,480 of us have to remember that the Wilmer family and the younger generation. He 98 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:57,079 has two kids, they have children who'd be Alan Wilmer Senior's grandchildren had nothing 99 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,439 to do with this. I think the sun was eight years old at the 100 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:05,560 time of the Colonial Parkway murders. This is literally thirty seven years ago. 101 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:11,000 They aren't going to know anything about this. They don't need to be harassed. 102 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,680 We've heard stories that people are saying mean things to the grandkids. This 103 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:22,439 is outrageous. I've seen on social media people lashing out at Alan Wilmer. 104 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,920 I understand the anger, trust me, I'm feeling the same thing. But 105 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,519 putting up nasty grams on his obituary page and harassing the families. It's not 106 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,399 appropriate. Let law enforcement do its job. Leave the family alone. They 107 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,759 are going through a very difficult time. I have zero sympathy for Alan Wade 108 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,000 Wilmer Senior, but I have no acts to grind with the rest of that 109 00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,919 family. We just need to leave them alone. One other thing regarding tips, 110 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,399 very important. We mentioned this the other day. The FBI and the 111 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,879 Virginia State Police don't care what you were into in the eighties or nineties, 112 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:07,480 this time frame that we're talking about. We know that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior 113 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,679 was into some really sketchy stuff. He's a serial killer. He is likely 114 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,559 going to be linked to other unsolved murders in Virginia. If you're uncomfortable reaching 115 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:22,000 out now when they need the information, no matter how simple or basic it 116 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,960 is, nobody cares that you were doing something maybe you shouldn't have been doing 117 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:33,559 or whatever. They don't care about your underage drinking or the fact that you 118 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,159 were involved in a drug deal or or someplace where you shouldn't have been. 119 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:43,840 They want the information about Allan Wade Wilmer seniors whereabouts in the nineteen eighties and 120 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:50,000 nineteen nineties. To build out a case and a timeline against a serial killer 121 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,840 is incredibly challenging. Let's be grown ups about this. No one's trying to 122 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,320 bust you for some dumb thing you did back in the eighties or nineties. 123 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,039 And by the way, I should even say, stretching into the two thousands, 124 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:09,159 I never got into calling them the oughts. Really, we can't come 125 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,039 up with something better. They think he was an active serial killer for a 126 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,559 number of years, and a lot of those serial killer cliches about serial killers 127 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,519 always kill them the same way. They always like the same kind of victim. 128 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:28,440 Put outside all that stuff, Kristain and I have met with amazing profilers, 129 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,039 many of whom you've heard of and read about. We've been lucky enough 130 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,759 to have a chance to speak to and by the way, some of them 131 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,799 may be coming on mind of a murderer in them not too distant future. 132 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:41,480 They've educated us we're not the experts, but we are lucky enough to know 133 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,440 some experts. They'll actually talk to us. These cliches about serial killers are 134 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,639 like an automaton, and they only kill one way, using a knife or 135 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,159 a gun or whatever, or they only kill one kind of victim. None 136 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:01,399 of those things are true. And even as Kristin has been and studying what 137 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,120 we know so far about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, we're seeing a real variety. 138 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,000 We'll be talking about that in a future episode of Mind Over Murder. 139 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,720 But there's some very interesting things about this man's career as a serial killer, 140 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,320 if you want to call it that, that completely blow out any preconceived notions 141 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,679 you might have had about the only attack this kind of person and they only 142 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,039 use this kind of weapon. That is not true in the Colonial Parkery murders, 143 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,799 and it's not true in what I believe will be other cases linked to 144 00:11:30,879 --> 00:11:33,840 him. One of the things that you've probably noticed that we're doing a lot 145 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,639 in this episode is we are using the term serial killer, and that is 146 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:45,519 because that is precisely what this man is. According to the criteria from the 147 00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:50,720 FBI, the definition of a serial killer is someone who has killed two or 148 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:56,840 more people in two distinct, separate events. That meets the criteria. Robin 149 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,360 Edwards and David Nobling were killed on Ragged Island in September of nineteen eighty seven. 150 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,519 Teresa Howell was killed in June of nineteen eighty nine. That is three 151 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,360 victims in two distinct events. He meets the criteria for a serial killer. 152 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,919 The FBI has not used that terminology yet in their press conference, but let's 153 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:22,360 be clear here, folks. There was a serial killer stalking the Tidewater area 154 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:28,519 of Virginia and there are going to be more crimes attributed to him. So 155 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,720 you're going to hear us use that term a lot. The other thing that 156 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,879 comes out of the press conference, and this wasn't made clear at all in 157 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:41,720 the press conference, is that the confirmation of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior as the 158 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:46,639 Colonial Parkway killer, an expression I don't particularly care for, is important here. 159 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:54,720 His identification as the killer of three people confirms that the Colonial Parkway murders 160 00:12:54,919 --> 00:13:00,639 is real and that we have a murder series on our hands. We can't 161 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,919 lose sight of the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was the number one suspect 162 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:11,679 in the disappearance of Keith cal and Cassandra Haley on the Colonial Parkway in nineteen 163 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:18,879 eighty eight. That disappearance is bracketed by as Kristen saying, the nineteen eighty 164 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:22,960 seven murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling, now confirmed to be Wilmer, 165 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720 and then the nineteen eighty nine murder of Teresa Howell, also now confirmed. 166 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,720 Not yet confirmed is any role that he might have played in the disappearance and 167 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:41,519 likely homicide of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. He was the first suspect from the 168 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:48,279 very first few days of the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, as Blaine 169 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:50,840 Pardo has talked about in his book, and I want to be clear about 170 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:56,360 this. I heard this story from my father, Joseph Thomas, who passed 171 00:13:56,399 --> 00:14:01,240 away a couple of years ago at age ninety. My father told me this 172 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:05,919 exact story in nineteen eighty eight, and he heard it from the FBI agents 173 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,200 who were working this case at that time. Remember, my sister Kathy Thomas 174 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,799 and her girlfriend, Rebecca Udowski were killed in nineteen eighty six in October. 175 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,679 My father then acted as our family liaison with the FBI, and he spoke 176 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:24,279 to the FBI agents, the case agents frequently. He held them in very 177 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,279 high regard. I was nearly thirty years old at the time of that murder, 178 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,480 and I was very interested in what had happened to our sister Kathy and 179 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,840 her girlfriend Rebecca. So my dad and I would sit down out of your 180 00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:39,200 shot of the rest of the family. This was so upsetting for my family, 181 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,679 as you can imagine, especially from my mother. I would sit down 182 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,639 with my dad. We'd go off into a quiet corner in our house somewhere, 183 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:48,360 and my dad would say, you might say, even over dinner, 184 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,919 I spoke with the FBI today, which happened a lot. We heard these 185 00:14:54,200 --> 00:15:01,159 agents' names around the dinner table so often that I remembered them. John Maybray, 186 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,840 Bob Meadows, Robert Meadows is his real name. My dad held these 187 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:09,159 people in really high regard. Now I can't tell you which agent told my 188 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:15,000 father this story, but this driveway story, as I called it, was 189 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,799 something that I knew had happened as far back as nineteen eighty eight. Some 190 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,039 of you may remember that a few years ago we did a television series called 191 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:26,879 The Lover's Lane Murders for Oxygen. Don't ask me why they renamed the show 192 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,039 was supposed to be called The Colonial Parkway Murders. Don't even go there. 193 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:35,399 As part of that series, we actually shot a whole series of interviews with 194 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,200 various players with expert knowledge of the case, as well as family members and 195 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:46,320 media people, and you know what goes into creating a television documentary. We 196 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:52,679 actually shot all those interviews twice, so I went to IRV Wells home. 197 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,320 IRV Wells was the special Agent in charge. They called him the SAC. 198 00:15:56,919 --> 00:16:03,159 He was the SAC during the Colonial Parkway murders. He was in charge of 199 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:07,240 all of the FBI agents who were working on Kathy Thomas and Rebeccadowski's murders, 200 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:11,320 and then a year and a half later, the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra 201 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,240 Haley also on one of these half moon pull offs along the York River. 202 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:21,039 I sat with him on two separate occasions in his living room in Virginia Beach 203 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:23,799 for for probably three to four hours. Kristen, and only a couple of 204 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:30,600 minutes of that footage ends up in a television documentary like The Lover's Lane Murders, 205 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,399 which by the way, is worth going back and taking another look at 206 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,240 a lot of times when you're doing television, there's all this setup time. 207 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,519 Kristen's appeared in this documentary and knows about this as well. They shoot for 208 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:48,559 hours they only used two minutes. And at the same time, it's a 209 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:52,759 complicated process from a technology perspective. I've worked in film and television, and 210 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:56,519 I find it fascinating. It takes hours to set up the equipment, get 211 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,919 the lighting right. This is all very important, and get the sounds sorted 212 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,599 out. So Irv and I had hours together to just sit and talk. 213 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,880 Irva was a wonderful man. Unfortunately passed away recently, so he's not here 214 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,440 to talk with us anymore. He told me the driveway story. We went 215 00:17:14,519 --> 00:17:18,839 back over that. He also told me that the Colonial Parkway murders were his 216 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:23,599 single greatest professional regret as an FBI agent and a special agent in charge. 217 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,160 So here's this man who's went to retirement by the time I was sitting down 218 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:33,279 with him and just filled with regret to that day, the single greatest disappointment 219 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:37,839 in his professional career as an FBI agent. You're listening to mindover Murder. 220 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:47,559 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 221 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:52,359 mindover Murder. So this driveway story is real. Just to finish that out, 222 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:59,359 the FBI was looking for a very distinctive truck. The truck you're seeing 223 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,720 in all the media. Yeah, and we'll include in the show notes. 224 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:07,960 This is the blue green nineteen sixty six Dodge Fargo truck and it's got tongs 225 00:18:08,039 --> 00:18:11,000 on the back of it, which almost to me, as a civilian, 226 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:17,720 looked like a tow truck. Kristin educated me a little bit about oystermen and 227 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,400 watermen and how you would use these tongs to reach into the water to pull 228 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,839 out crab pots or haul oyster. So that truck was very distinctive, and 229 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,839 the FBI was looking for that truck because it was reported to have been on 230 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,559 the Colonial Parkway the night that Keith and Sandy went missing, pulling in from 231 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,519 one of these half moon pull offs to another. Now, once the FBI 232 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,880 figured out who that truck belonged to, because it had a very distinctive license 233 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,279 plate E M Raw, which, by the way, blam Pardo was obligated 234 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:56,319 to change slightly in his book because he didn't want people harassing what we thought 235 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,599 at that point might be an innocent man. So the em Raw license plate 236 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,079 was very distinctive. Within days, the FBI had this information, and these 237 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:12,440 two FBI agents rolled up on Wilmer's home up in Lancaster County and interviewed him, 238 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,799 and he was We've heard a couple of different versions, but cleaning with 239 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:25,720 solvent of some sort and repainting the bed of his truck and the interior of 240 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:30,160 his truck in a way that the FBI agents found highly suspicious. I'm not 241 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,880 sure whether they ever took him into custody or not, but ultimately they gave 242 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,079 him and a second man a lie detector test, polygraph examination. He passed 243 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:48,960 the polygraph examination and for whatever reason, was dismissed as a subject. So 244 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:57,599 what's heartbreaking is Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was a suspect from essentially day one of 245 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,960 the Keith Collin Cassandra hi Elite disappearance. And I want to be clear here 246 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,160 he could be regarded as a suspect in all four of the double homicides in 247 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,400 the Colonial Parkway murders. Now let's also clear up another thing, because for 248 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,119 anybody who's saying, Bill, I guess I missed that at the press conference 249 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,720 where they talked about the fact that he was the first suspect prime suspect if 250 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:23,000 you will, in the call Haley disappearance. No, you didn't miss it. 251 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,839 They never talked about it. They never talked about it. In fact, 252 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,319 I'm going to quote from my transcription of the press conference here as they 253 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:37,519 speak very specifically about the Colonial Parkway murders. So here I'm going to go 254 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:41,200 ahead end quote from Corin Geller, who is the public information officer who was 255 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,240 giving this press conference quote. Now, many in the region will recognize that 256 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:49,279 the Isle of Wight double homicide as one that occurred during a series of double 257 00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:55,440 homicides collectively known as the Colonial Parkway murders. Although the similarities in these double 258 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,960 homicides, which spanned a three year period, cannot be ignored. Emphasis mind, 259 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,480 at this time, there is no forensic or physical evidence to link the 260 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:10,400 Isle of Wight County homicides to those other double murders. The remaining double homicides, 261 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,920 the two in York County that occurred on the Colonial Parkway and the one 262 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,720 that occurred in New Kent County, are still active investigations, and our combined 263 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:23,440 investigative efforts continue. Far be it from me to parse what's being said there, 264 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:29,680 but note the use of the word forensic and physical. YEP, I 265 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,119 was about to say the same thing. Look, I agree, there is 266 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,200 no evidence that we're aware of that links the Colonial Parkway murders. We've asked 267 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,720 this as families numerous times, and assuming we're getting a straight answer, they've 268 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,400 told us repeatedly, including a couple of months ago, that there was no 269 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:52,039 forensic evidence linking the four double homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders. But there 270 00:21:52,200 --> 00:22:00,920 is evidence linking Alan Wade Wilmer Senior to two of the four double homicides that 271 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:08,119 I believe there's a strong evidence that indicates that he was on FBI radar for 272 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:15,799 the disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley. It's the following April nineteen eighty eight, 273 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,799 after the September nineteen eighty seven murder of Robin Edwards and David Noveling, 274 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,559 And if we go back one more year, we've got Kathy Thomas and Rebecca 275 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,319 Dowski also dying on the Colonial Parkway, and then of course the murder series 276 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,079 closes out and we're not sure if these are all related. He is still 277 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,480 being regarded as a suspect in the nineteen eighty nine murder of Anna Maria Phelps 278 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:44,759 and Daniel Lower. That's the case up on Interstate sixty four over Labor Day 279 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:51,480 weekend nineteen eighty nine. So I'm sorry that when Andy Fox, whose longtime 280 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:59,000 reporter here in the Williamsburg market, asks the question twice, can we ask 281 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,480 how Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior, And keep in mind, the suspect's dead, 282 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:07,119 not like anybody's going to jail here, and it's not like any of this 283 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,920 is being brought into court. Andy Fox is heard at the press conference asking 284 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,559 twice, and this is not an unreasonable question. Can we ask how Alan 285 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:21,799 Wade Wilmer Senior moved on to FBI Virginia State Police's radar and they said no, 286 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:26,680 And I am I'm horrified that we're going to play that we're going to 287 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,079 play these kind of games. Shall we say, yeah, I want to 288 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,079 pick up on something you said a minute ago. You had said assuming we 289 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,119 get a straight answer from the FBI with regard to you and the families, 290 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,640 Normally you're the person who's salty about the FBI. But let me just go 291 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,599 ahead and take a moment to have mine to I am find being salty about 292 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:48,359 this. I don't think you can assume you're getting a straight answer out of 293 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,920 the FBI. I truly don't. And to the FBI analyst who has no 294 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,160 doubt listening to this. Sorry, but I'm willing to be salty about this 295 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,920 for a second. I don't think you can assume that you get a straight 296 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,680 answer out of the FBI with regard to anything about these cases. I think 297 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,759 that's unfortunate because I'm a big fan and a big proponent of the work that 298 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:07,039 the FBI does. But I don't think you can assume anymore that you're going 299 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:10,839 to get a straight answer out of them. And I think that's really unfortunate 300 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,240 because I do hold them in high regard. Before we get into the particulars 301 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:17,480 of her case, I do want to speak to the fact that we didn't 302 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:21,359 really know a whole lot about this. First of all, we have always 303 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,279 wondered if there were I'm going to use my term for it, parkway adjacent 304 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:29,359 cases. We had always done with the assumption that maybe Brian Pettinger was going 305 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,359 to be a parkway adjacent case, maybe Lauren Powell was going to be a 306 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,720 parkway adjacent case, until some media sources came to us a couple of months 307 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:41,680 ago and said, hey, have you heard about the murder of Teresa Howell. 308 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:45,000 Both of us were like, No, we haven't heard about the murder 309 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:48,000 of Teresa Howell, and I do feel bad that we had never linked her 310 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:55,440 in as a Parkway adjacent case. What we understand about her murder is so 311 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,519 different from what we had considered parkway adjacent cases. Brian and Laurie Anne, 312 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,759 I don't think we ever considered the possibility that we should group her in there. 313 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,279 We have considerably less information about Teresa Howell's case than I would like to 314 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,559 have, and I'm hoping to remedy that in the near future by doing some 315 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:18,319 more research. But we do know that Teresa Howell disappeared in June of nineteen 316 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,920 eighty nine, after last being seen at the Zodiac Club on Mercury Boulevard in 317 00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:29,200 Hampton. We know that Teresa Howell was separated from her husband. She was 318 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,359 heading into a divorce. She was twenty nine years old. She's seen at 319 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,119 this place, the Zodiac Club, which, as I understand it was adjacent 320 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:42,640 to another club known as the Ivory Horse. We're learning a lot more people 321 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,160 are reaching out to us. The Zodiac Club was quote unquote a private club. 322 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,799 You had to be a member, and you had to be signed in 323 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,200 either as a member or by a member in order to be able to go 324 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,960 into the club. I don't know how strictly they held to. These are 325 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,559 told that the Ivory Horse was right next door and that the Zodiac Club would 326 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:08,880 stay open until five am, which is way later than bars are open in 327 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,880 Virginia. Because of this private club status, one of the things we want 328 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,920 to ask our listeners is what do you know about the Zodiac Club? Did 329 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:26,079 you ever go to the Zodiac Club or the Ivory Horse which was apparently connected 330 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,519 to the Zodiac Club. Did you ever see Alan Wade Wilmer there. This 331 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:36,440 would have been in the eighties or nineties, keeping in mind that Teresa Howell 332 00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:41,119 was murdered in June nineteen eighty nine. Some people have commented on our social 333 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,799 media pages they thought that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, who was married and had 334 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:49,880 two kids. But remember they're hours away and he's probably living on his boat 335 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,920 in the Hampton, Gloucester area. So what's being lost is I think he's 336 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,759 an average looking guy with a neatly trimmed beard. Some people have commented they 337 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:07,200 regarded him as handsome. He's five foot five inches tall. He is way 338 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,680 outside the norm. He is very short, he's very muscular. I was 339 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:18,079 saying to Kristen a kind of picture Popeye, the sailor man. He's apparently 340 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,839 he was really built. He's very buff. I mean, he works on 341 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:25,160 the water, he hauls oysters. He had a tree business. Apparently he's 342 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:30,920 incredibly comfortable climbing trees and cutting limbs. And he's a physically strong guy with 343 00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:36,799 a very strong upper body. But he's five foot five inches tall. This 344 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,680 guy should stand out. He should stand out I think in a crowd, 345 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,200 perhaps not with his head above the rest of the crowd. But oh, 346 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,720 I'm sorry. I'm not feeling terribly charitable to it, and you don't have 347 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,720 to, It's totally fine. But did you see this man? Do you 348 00:27:55,799 --> 00:28:00,119 remember a short, muscular man with a neatly trimmed beard in the Zodiac Club 349 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,880 or the Ivory Horse. We are fairly certain that's where he met miss Howell. 350 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,960 She was newly divorced or headed in that direction, and she's probably out 351 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,839 ready to socialize and spend time with people. And this bar has a reputation 352 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,519 for being a pickup joint, a singles bar. I know, for our 353 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,359 younger listeners, they're not going to know what the heck we're talking about, 354 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,359 But it was a phenomenon. I would say too, if you're familiar with 355 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,319 any other bars along that stretch of Mercury Boulevard, or any bars around the 356 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,559 various marinas where he would have been docking his boat. We know that he 357 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,079 docked at Gloucester, we know he docked at Hampton, and we know he 358 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,519 docked at Middlesex. If you know of bars and restaurants around there, if 359 00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:48,839 you frequented those bars and restaurants and you saw this guy or hung out with 360 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,119 this guy, or bought a beer for this guy, or he bought a 361 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:55,279 beer for you, please make sure that you call in that information. It 362 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,480 is super important that the FBI and the VSP be able to establish a timeline 363 00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:03,720 of this guy getting off of the boat and socializing in and around the area. 364 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,640 We have to have that information. It is very important. So please, 365 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,079 we do urge you to take a very good look at those various photos 366 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,559 that are provided by the Virginia State Police and the FBI. You get photos 367 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,559 of him from nineteen eighty eight, nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety nine, 368 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:25,400 two thousand and four, and two thousand and nine. Unfortunately, there is 369 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,359 nothing of him beyond two thousand and nine. He is a distinctive looking guy, 370 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,519 and at least in the first couple photos. Yeah, you could argue 371 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,160 that he looks handsome, but definitely please do take a look at that. 372 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,480 We have posted this all over our social media pages and we do encourage you 373 00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,920 to share on yours as well, especially if you have friends in and around 374 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,440 this area, the Rappahannock area in northern Neck, any place in the Tidewater 375 00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:53,400 region. Please share this information. It is vitally important that we get it 376 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,400 out to everyone. And the FBI and the Virginia State Police described him as 377 00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:03,240 trangent. So he he lived and I put air quotes around that up in 378 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:08,000 Lively, Virginia and the Lancaster County area, but he apparently spent weeks, 379 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:15,039 if not months, down in the Tidewater area with docking at Gloucester, Hampton 380 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,799 and other locations. Was certainly taking a look at the oystering season and when 381 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:25,079 he might have been pulling oysters and selling oysters. I know that he was 382 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:32,400 known for illegally obtaining crabs and oysters, and he was also known for breaking 383 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,240 the rules as a hunter. He was an avid hunter and outdoorsman. So 384 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,920 I'm not locked into the idea that he would only be fishing or hunting during 385 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,720 the times that were legal. But I think in terms of selling to restaurants 386 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,640 or grocery stores or even private individuals, I think he'd probably be pushing his 387 00:30:52,759 --> 00:30:57,079 luck to be doing that openly at times where it was not seasoned and therefore 388 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:03,559 illegal to sell those items. This puts him in the Tidewater area, going 389 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,759 up and down the York and James Rivers and pulling up sleeping on the boat. 390 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:12,039 This boat was a thirty two foot wooden boat, the Denny Wade, 391 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:18,079 painted white, also quite distinctive, and again will include pictures in the show 392 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:22,119 notes and in our social media pages. You don't want to get locked into 393 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,880 thinking he's up on the Northern Neck and he's not there. No, he's 394 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:32,200 right there in the Tidewater area, raping and killing women and couples. I 395 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,920 think we all have to broaden our thinking. We have an identified suspect. 396 00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:41,480 I know it's not a very satisfying result to have this person be named when 397 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,599 he died in twenty seventeen at age sixty three. I know we're all very 398 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:52,160 frustrated that a suspect like this couldn't have been named and brought before the halls 399 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,880 of justice sooner than this. It's not necessarily the outcome that we all wanted. 400 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,720 Understand, from my perspective as the brother of a murder victim. We're 401 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,799 looking for answers. We've been waiting for answers for as long as thirty seven 402 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,359 years, and Colonial Parkway murders are thirty three to thirty seven years ago. 403 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Now we knew that there was a very good chance that this suspect and perhaps 404 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:20,200 other suspects, might be dead by now, we're still looking for answers. 405 00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:25,160 I know that when I spoke with Jeanette Edward Santiago, who's Robin's sister who's 406 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,160 been amazing in this case. She mentioned her mom, Bonnie Edwards, who's 407 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,039 also just a lovely person and has done a tremendous amount of work in this 408 00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:38,160 case. And the fact that Jeannette said to me, we wanted to get 409 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,599 this news while my mom was still with us. Thankfully, Bonnie's still here. 410 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,240 More than half the parents, as you've heard me mentioned before, are 411 00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:52,240 gone. Now think about that sixteen moms and dads, at least nine the 412 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:57,200 last time I counted are gone now. Thankfully, Judy Noblin is still with 413 00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:00,960 us and doing great. She probably hit me over the head because she's actually 414 00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:07,160 quite young. David's brother, Michael is a young and vibrant man and a 415 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,400 fantastic guy, and he's done a tremendous amount of work on this case. 416 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,319 All of us understand that we may be looking at an empty chair in terms 417 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:21,160 of identifying an offender here, waiting for answers. As for as long as 418 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,920 people in this case have we're still looking for those answers. It's incredibly important 419 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,279 and meaningful to the families that we help solve all of the Colonial Parkway murders, 420 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:36,519 and the best way that you can do that is to please submit tips 421 00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:40,759 to the FBI and the VSP. We also want to encourage anyone who has 422 00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:46,640 ever reached out to us about strange encounters on the Colonial Parkway. If you 423 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:53,359 had an encounter on the Colonial Parkway either with that very distinctive blue Dodge Fargo 424 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:59,440 truck, please do reach back out to the FBI or the VSP and re 425 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,319 report that incident so that they can continue to go back and try to establish 426 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,360 a timeline on this guy. Maybe he was the person who encountered you on 427 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,719 the parkway. Maybe not, but it is important that they have all of 428 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,960 this information so that they can look at this anew. So please, if 429 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:22,679 you have any information whatsoever with regard to Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, his truck 430 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,760 or his watercraft, call the FBI at one eight hundred call FBI, go 431 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,280 online to submit a tip at tips dot FBI dot gov, or email questions 432 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,840 at VSP dot Virginia dot gov to reach the Virginia State Police that is going 433 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,320 to do it. For this episode of Mindover Murder, thank you so much 434 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:55,559 for listening. We'll see you next time. Mindover Murder is a production of 435 00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:02,119 Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin 436 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:07,039 Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by 437 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:13,400 Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 438 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,119 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 439 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:22,679 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 440 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,440 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 441 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:30,079 listening to mind Over Murder