WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:07.519 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Raid and from 2 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:14.160 London Lawrence Segalan. Today on Redefining Energy, Chard, we're going to talk 3 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:19.519 about electrifying islands. It's not so easy. Actually electrifying them as easy. 4 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:22.839 Doing it a green way, that's not easy. But first of all, 5 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:28.079 from our partner, PVKS is the ultimate design software for solar pv developers, 6 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:32.600 from the earlier stages of planning all the way to the procurement phase. PVKS 7 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:37.399 is the ideal choice for solar. We also do this epidote in partnership with 8 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:42.359 a friend and that's Bruce Douglass used to be one of the top guys as 9 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:49.960 you electric and he has created a new organization called the Global Renewables Alliance and 10 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:54.560 it's really supported by pretty much every organization and you might have seen it, 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:59.640 but he just launched a campaign for the tripling of global renewables by two or 12 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.439 thirty. Well done, Bruce, Good luck with everything. Back to our 13 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:11.280 islands, but probably something I want to share with you and our listeners our 14 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:17.200 shows. So the main one, this one and the minutes we passed one 15 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:22.640 million downloads yard oh, my god, I kind of believe this. It's 16 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.200 crazy, really long, but I think that we started as a bit of 17 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:30.719 a joke to be honest. Really a million downloads crazy. So guys, 18 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.680 we thank you all. We are just the produce of our listeners, and 19 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:41.079 every time we receive some nice feedback or comments, this incentivize us to continue 20 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:46.480 and just be better all the time. Absolutely, feedback helps you become better. 21 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.200 Simple as that. So islands. So why we choose islands. I 22 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.599 think we choose islands because the smaller degree, the higher the price. That's 23 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.439 what you've seen everywhere if you look at the US sprice de fim is in 24 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:04.120 Hawaii. These are child and very difficult system to run with. For one 25 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.680 success, there are a lot of failures in Puerto Rico in the US is 26 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.680 unmitigated disasters, not their fault. They've been hit by a lot of hurricanes. 27 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.759 Electrifying islands. It's not that simple, no, and it tends to 28 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.879 be very expensive because I have two choices. One is you import electricity. 29 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:23.960 There was you put in a very expensive power cable. But if you're in 30 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:28.800 the middle of the Atlantic Ocean or the middle of the Pacific Ocean or whatever, 31 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.039 you can't do that, so then you're left with importing it. And 32 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.479 what do you import? You import fuels. That's what you've been doing in 33 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.800 islands are using diesel GM sets. I don't care if it's the Greek Islands 34 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.159 or Jamaica. That's what they're doing. They're important oil. Why did we 35 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.840 choose Jamaica. People only hear about Jamaica when sportmale or it's US and bolts, 36 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.199 or it's tourism. And by the way, it's absolute beautiful place. 37 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.439 It's a tiny island, were million inhabitants for those who don't know. So 38 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:01.000 Jamaica is west of it, south of Cuba, and they don't make yod 39 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:08.520 lines because it's a relatively well managed country and it does a privately integrated unity 40 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:15.120 company called jipps Jamaica a big service. And now it's managed by someone you 41 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.039 know very well. Job. Yeah, well, listen, I didn't know 42 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.919 we'd be talking about Jamaica six months ago. I know Steve Burbish very well. 43 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.759 He used to be the former head of California ISSO and otherwords, the 44 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.960 grid operator in California. Even went into early retirement, got fed up playing 45 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:34.680 golf, and then one day it just says, by the way, I 46 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.240 moved into Jamaica. You go, why would you move to Jamaica? Because 47 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.039 I'm going to become the CEO of the utility there, and the question is 48 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.400 why do you do it? It's a challenge and it is an incredible challenge, 49 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:50.599 and I think it's so great because if you can decarbonize that island, 50 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:54.080 then that's a role model for the rest of the world. And it's completely 51 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:58.360 different if you're on an Iceland or in Australia. They're also islands, but 52 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.400 they have their own resources. To Jamaica is if this world's don't I think 53 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:04.759 it's prettiant what he's doing right, really probably the best thing used to bring 54 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.800 Steve on the show. Steve, welcome to the show. Thank you. 55 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:11.960 Sure, it's a pleasure to be here with you. I really look forward 56 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.599 to this conversation. Let me just kick off straight away with You've had a 57 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.720 very successful career with a head of California isso for many years, you took 58 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.560 a little bit of time off after that, and then suddenly you've ended up 59 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.360 in Jamaica. You need to explain that one to me. That's a multilayered 60 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.720 question. It requires a bit of a multilayered response, but part of it 61 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.319 I think it connects well with what your audience is interested in, So you're 62 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.800 right. I was the CEO of the grid Operator market Operator in California, 63 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.160 and I left there after being the CEO about ten years because one is I 64 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.800 just feel that it's important for people to keep mentally sharp and for organizations, 65 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.639 I think also to have new, fresh ideas and faces. So after about 66 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:56.480 ten years, I think it's about time, and so I tried retirement, 67 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.519 but I still wanted to be involved in this transition discussion. And so someone 68 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.839 called me about Jamaica and I did some research on it, and I found 69 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:11.160 that Number one, their electric system is run almost entirely on either natural gas, 70 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.600 which is important or distalates that it is also important. They have a 71 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:20.000 high cost of power, they have a grid that's relatively unreliable, and they 72 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:25.759 want to transition to renewables. They want to get renewables by twenty thirty and 73 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:30.600 that sounds like a pretty cool thing to try to do. So that's really 74 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.319 what motivated me to do this. From a personal perspective, it sounds like 75 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:40.319 an interesting adventure. From professional perspective, what better microcosm of what needs to 76 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.079 happen than work on a Caribbean island to try to get this done. And 77 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.519 I suppose if you can do it in Jamaica, you can do it anywhere. 78 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:48.399 Exact point, So, Steve, you arrive on an island of three 79 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.959 million naman so gdppa capita, which is twelve time lower than the US. 80 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.639 What's your first assessment of the situation. The first assessment I found here, 81 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:00.920 or that I did here in the island was, let's look at the big 82 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.959 picture of things. Number one. I think for a developing country, they 83 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:11.319 should have every expectation to have the same level of reliability that a developed country 84 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:15.839 has. And my first observation is, not only is a grid not as 85 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:21.240 reliable generally, there's an expectation of unreliability, and I think that inhibits quality 86 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:28.040 alive. I think it also inhibits economic development. So having a good quality, 87 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.720 reliable system I think is important. I also saw firsthand in my time 88 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.519 in California that I think renewables can contribute to that resiliency across many fronts, 89 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:42.800 and but having good reliable power I think is the most important. First thing 90 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.680 I did, this island needs and I observe that they don't have. The 91 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.759 second thing too, is they have very ambitious goals to get to fifty percent 92 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:55.920 renewables by twenty thirty, as I mentioned, and they don't have a lot 93 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:00.319 of money to do that. However, they spend a lot of money barding 94 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.040 the fuel needed to produce electricity. So there's a good put in take for 95 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:10.800 renewables that can offset the cost of generation. Because the marginal cost of generation 96 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:16.000 here reaches almost three hundred dollars a megawatt hour, which is way higher than 97 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.240 you see in other parts of the world. In California, as an example, 98 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:24.720 would probably be around forty dollars. So the marginal costs to generate here 99 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.759 is very high, and the marginal cost for renewables is very low. So 100 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.800 I think there's a way to thread this needle to get this done. And 101 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.360 I think those are probably my first observations. How do you thread the needle? 102 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.360 And how do we make this system reliable? And so can I ask 103 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.399 then, just converting that into a plan of action, what comes next? 104 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.279 You've gone done your assessment, what do you do now? I believe the 105 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.800 strategy has to rest on culture, and this is a hundred year old company 106 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:54.600 that was formally government owned, and I think there's a lot of embedded culture 107 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:59.000 here that is a bit slower to change then I think is necessary, particularly 108 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:03.720 when you're starting to think about an energy transition, and when they take a 109 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.720 step back, they look at rooftop solar as an example, as a threat. 110 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.439 They see these other things or the renewables on the grid as a challenge. 111 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.120 And what I need to do first and formist is change that cultural platform 112 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.160 form so that you can later on a strategy. And the cultural platform that 113 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:26.199 I'm talking about is making sure they understand this transition is something that's healthy, 114 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.360 that can be good for the organization. And they also have to understand as 115 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:35.639 a monopoly that they do have competition. They have competition and forms of consumer 116 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:41.919 choice, and as consumers decide to make those decisions, we have to adapt 117 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.879 to them. So I want to build a cultural platform that embraces and adapts 118 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.279 to this transition that it's going to happen, and fighting technology is all losing 119 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:52.559 cost. So that's the first thing I have to do, and that will 120 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.600 take some time in some doing, however, I don't have time to do 121 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.159 things in Cereal. I'll have to do things a parallel. The second thing 122 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.559 we have to do is up our game on reliability because I can't have a 123 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.600 good conversation about a transition. Tell we have a good reliable system. Now 124 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.559 that means we need more crews, we need more equipment, we need to 125 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.519 get out there. But I think that also is a paradigm shift because we 126 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.159 need to shift from reactive to proactive. We need to do proactive maintenance and 127 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.960 tree trimming and the necessary things that keep trucks from rolling in the first place. 128 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.679 We spend a lot of time just responding to vegetation that got into lines 129 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:37.320 because it's a heavily vegetated area and those kind of challenges. The other big 130 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.480 issue that I have to get after that you have to have a multifaceted strategy 131 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.919 around, is how to reduce theft on the system. In Jamaica, approximately 132 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.440 twenty five percent of the power is stolen, and that's a problem for lots 133 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.399 of reasons. Number one, it increases the rates for those who are paying. 134 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:01.960 Number two, it's dangerous. Number three three, it's not conducive to 135 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.919 energy efficiency and other kinds of things you want to try to do, because 136 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.039 if you're stealing power, there's certainly no incentive to try to be efficient about 137 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:15.399 that. So we have to reduce theft too, and we need to bring 138 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.799 everybody into the entire tapestry of the energy system. I firmly believe that everyone 139 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.399 should have access to power, and we have to start this anti theft program 140 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.799 with the premise that everyone should have power. Now we know some people are 141 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.879 stealing because I can't afford it, and so how are we going to help 142 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:41.240 them and make sure they're not disenfranchised. We saw with COVID firsthand that people 143 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.840 have to have power to educate their kids and to stay connected in all those 144 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:50.039 things. So it's become more improyant now that everyone needs to have access. 145 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.320 So I think it's one of the major things that I have to get after 146 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.039 for all kinds of reasons. It also causes reliability, is just because people 147 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:01.240 blow transformers and when they go and connect illegal connections under the system. Those 148 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.960 are the big rocks. But as I said, it needs to fundamentally rest 149 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:13.480 on a solid change at change, abled agile culture, healthy organization. We've 150 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:20.000 seen in the past two years in South Africa failing public own utility as common 151 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.159 and you know the reaction of the public has just been wild solar deployment, 152 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:31.399 even on balcones on roof totally anarchic, but they manage to put four gigat 153 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.600 on rooftops, you know, without any plan. And of course now it's 154 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:39.440 going to create problems of integration, but that's that's people a reaction because the 155 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:45.240 technology is there. So and I know it's a very academic question, but 156 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:50.240 do you foresee a centralized development or a decentralized development or a mix of both. 157 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.440 How do you see the shot term deployment R And I think it has 158 00:11:54.519 --> 00:12:00.399 to be all the above because I firmly believe that we're moving abroad perspective in 159 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:05.200 the energy sector to away from central to decentral But part and parcel of that 160 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.600 and other pinnings, whether it's decentralize or centralized, you still have to have 161 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:16.440 wires and I think you have to have a good solid system of transmission and 162 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.919 distribution in any scenario, so that has to be part of it. But 163 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:24.919 from a decentralized perspective, I saw it firsthand in California. I saw where 164 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:31.720 people wanted to get their own power and self supply and the utilities fought it, 165 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.679 and it was a losing battle, and now the utilities have very good, 166 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.559 efficient approaches to how you know where it's going to be and how they're 167 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.000 permitted and how they're connected to the system. And I want to do that 168 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.679 here in Jamaica as well, so that if people want to make that choice 169 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.759 that they can. We have to decarbonize the central grid too, and we'll 170 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.720 do that through solar and wind and storage and all the things we all know 171 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.840 of out So I think it has to be an and approach, and I 172 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.480 think the utility has to be prepared for both. That's what I'm trying to 173 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.840 do here in Jamaica. Can I ask you there, because it's one of 174 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:13.480 the things you have to do is you also have to keep the price of 175 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.519 power low. And if you're going to go and invest in all this renewables, 176 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.600 what you've got as upfront calls which are pretty expensive, which means you 177 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.639 need to come in with some form of financing solution and around that. So 178 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.360 how does that work and how do you see that work? And going forward? 179 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.399 Let me just harken back to some of the previous conversation about South Africa. 180 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:37.000 The good news about Jamaica Public service is it is a financially solid and 181 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:43.799 stable company. It is a properly regulated company by the Office of Utility Regulations 182 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.039 here in Jamaica. So we start from a position of strength. So JPS 183 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:56.279 is able to finance and be the counterparty for this transition when you need central 184 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.440 renewables and you need a counterparty purchase power agreement. So I think we start 185 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:07.600 from a position of strength. We shouldn't have a problem financing it. The 186 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.600 key thing will be making sure that we think through this in a way that 187 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:18.879 reduces costs as much as possible. The good news or bad news in Jamaica 188 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.879 is that the price of power here is very expensive. Now that's bad, 189 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:30.360 but it's also good in that when you look at the economics of renewables and 190 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:35.480 the upfront costs, you actually come out with an offseted cost that is at 191 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.039 least equal or or we may be able to save money by transition to renewables 192 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:46.440 themselves. So in this case, renewables actually will help reduce costs. And 193 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.799 then let me turn to the longer term. This island is highly dependent on 194 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.879 imported oil and gas, and we have all seen through the invasion of Ukraine 195 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:01.960 and the other upheavals in the global economic system that the price of import if 196 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.759 fuel can turn very very fast. So not only is it going to save 197 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.639 money, but it's going to be a hedge for the future. So they're 198 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:16.440 not exposed to these major swings and commodities. Because the people here the average 199 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:22.440 income in this island is five thousand US dollars. They cannot afford big swings 200 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.720 and power prices here. Can I also ask you about the residential solar because 201 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.440 I would have thought you could see that as a threat or you could see 202 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.039 that as an opportunity. And the opportunity is that actually you go and help 203 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.320 the customer to build solar and you build that let's say resilience into the system 204 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.559 because maybe you're putting batteries in and stuff like that. Is that the way 205 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.919 you look at it or how do you see it? Well? I look 206 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.080 at it in two ways. First, I think our strategic assets are our 207 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.360 wires, as I mentioned earlier, and we need to properly finance those wires. 208 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.240 And I think there are contribute to the reliability issues too, So there 209 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.919 you have to have a proper tariff so that it's benign to the utility. 210 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.200 Whether somebody wants to self produce or not, as long as they're paying their 211 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:15.440 fair share of the wires, and we don't create a socially unjust system here 212 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.360 where the poor people pay for the wires and the ridge people get to ride 213 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.159 for free, then we'll be fine. We just need to create an agnostic 214 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.399 tariff that properly funds the wires associated with it. Then I think what we 215 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.919 have to do is we have to be out front about whether we want to 216 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.360 be in this business, whether we want to help people and facilitate it and 217 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:42.279 finance it and provide leases and those kind of things. And we're currently exploring 218 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:48.200 that as a strategic opportunity for us. Can I ask if you look in 219 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:52.919 the future right, what I can imagine is you're an incredibly sunny part of 220 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.960 the world, So that's going to be it's the lowest cost of way of 221 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.840 generating electricity there. But it's not hows its challenge is going forward? So 222 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.319 how do you deal And I know you dealt with these challenges already in California, 223 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.960 but I can imagine those challenges are even greater in an island situation. 224 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.039 So how do you look at that? From a technical point of view? 225 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.680 I suppose the good news is this is a microcosm of what I saw in 226 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:21.559 California. The only difference is, obviously, is we don't have connectivity to 227 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.000 the rest of the world. We have to provide everything here on the island. 228 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.440 We can't assume we can get power from Cuba or some other or South 229 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.240 America or Central America. It all comes from here. So we will see 230 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.119 those issues of renewable integration. For instance, we know there's a major ramp 231 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.880 a solar in in the morning and a ramp out at night, so you 232 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:47.559 have to have something to contend with that ramp, and we know that's there. 233 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.200 Secondly, we need to be very good at prediction. The weather changes 234 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:57.720 here actually pretty quickly. For instance, in the afternoons you often have rain 235 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:02.559 showers that will come in and clouds will come in in the afternoons. It'll 236 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.759 be sunny all day until four o'clock, which is your peak. So we 237 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.960 will have to model that much like my experienced in California. And what we'll 238 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.319 do is we'll then assess what kind of backup fleet we need. Now, 239 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.359 how much can batteries help with that? Because you're right, most of the 240 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.559 time it's pretty sunny. We don't usually have unless there's a hurricane or something 241 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.920 coming through. We don't have extended periods where it's not sunny for days on 242 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:33.000 end. So batteries actually will work here, I think better than a lot 243 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.119 of areas, because we know that we'll have ample solar to charge them during 244 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.200 the day and be able to use them in the evening. And then we'll 245 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:47.319 also have to assess what residual thermal fleet we need to have during this transition 246 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.400 and can it ramp and do all the things that we need that I saw 247 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:56.559 firsthand in California. There's a centive island which have decabonized, But of course 248 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.640 it's inside the US, it's Hawaii, and of course I'm looking about the 249 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:06.480 dramatic recent fires. But what can you learn from they experience. The thing 250 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:10.400 I've learned most about the why experience is the price of power is very high 251 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:15.599 end. Why this island cannot afford a high price of power, So we 252 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.799 have to do it, I think differently, and that means we have to 253 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:26.680 be very thoughtful about what residual feet you need, what the renewable mix is, 254 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:32.480 and how storage will play a role on the system. You're right, 255 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.759 I think It's a good lesson there about how you operate the system. What 256 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.559 I'm most interested is learning about how you plan the system because we can't really 257 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:48.759 afford planning mistakes here. We can't afford to have extra generation just laying around 258 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.160 that doesn't have a high capacity factor. We have to be thoughtful about wind 259 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.920 versus solar, storage versus solar and exactly how that goes in. So what 260 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.799 I'm really focused on now is making sure we do proper planning. I'm engaged 261 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:08.160 with the government policymakers here about these issues and to make sure they understand the 262 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.279 behavior of solar, of the behavior of wind, and what you all need 263 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.079 to net the system together. Can I ask you a bit about wind, 264 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.759 because earlier on you did talk about hurricane risk. Just talk about how you 265 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.880 see it. We do have wind on the island, and it's not very 266 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.440 much. I believe it's somewhere on the order of forty megawatts or so, 267 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.599 just to give you some perspective, out of an eight hundred megawatt peaking system. 268 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.759 So it's not very much. It's in the mountains as relatively safe from 269 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.559 hurricanes, and hurricanes have come through while this wind was here, So properly 270 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.039 constructing the wind and operating it and feathering the blades as an example, in 271 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.839 high winds and facing it into the wind, we found it will be plenty 272 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.079 of resilient, so I'm not too concerned about that. We also have to 273 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.960 make sure the same thing happens when we play deploy solar. Oftentimes the major 274 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:07.559 destructive force on hurricane is water and making sure that we don't have storm surges 275 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.119 to go into the solar fields or they get damaged by flooding or other kinds 276 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.960 of things. So as an example, we can't afford to have flooding in 277 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.559 the inverters or other things. So we'll have to think through that. But 278 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:26.000 resiliency in the face of a category for hurricane that will inevitably happen here at 279 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.279 some point has got to be part of our planning. Steve, that question 280 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.440 seems a bit awkward, But as far as I can see, you're running 281 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:40.799 a laboratory here, and if you succeed here, whatever success your a chief 282 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.920 can be replicated not only on other islands, but you know in parts of 283 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:52.279 Africa or Soustasia or let America. So how do you see the success of 284 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.559 the future success of Jamaica in relation to the bigger world, Lauren, I 285 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.680 think that is an excellent question, a good way to kind of summarize what 286 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.799 I'm trying to do here. And this is exactly why I came here, 287 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.920 because if you can do it here, if you can do it in a 288 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:11.359 developing country with relatively low per capita income, I think you can do it 289 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:17.920 anywhere. And the ambition I have for both for Jamaica and Jamaica Public Service 290 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:22.000 is to actually be a beacon and an example for the world for how it 291 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.799 can be done. Because if it can be done on an island nation like 292 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.160 this, I think it can be done anywhere. There are parts of the 293 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:36.160 world such as India in Africa, and obviously there are other islands, and 294 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.920 I think we can be a very good example. I would love to have 295 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:44.039 people come and visit here and find out how we did it, and I 296 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.039 think if we do it right, we can be that example. And that's 297 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.119 frankly, that's why I'm here, so that I can set the standard for 298 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.920 what not me, but my entire organization can set the standard for what is 299 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.880 possible. And Steve and I would expect that there's a whole pot of very 300 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:07.079 interesting technology partners across the world who need to learn because they see this a 301 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.960 huge opportunity that you can partner up with. Absolutely right. I think the 302 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.400 economic opportunities here are tremendous, and I think the economic opportunity for this investment 303 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:21.640 that's going to be made for this transition will be very stimulative to the economy 304 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.640 here. And because I think lots of outside capital will have to flow in. 305 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:30.960 We don't manufacture panels or wind turbines or batteries or any of these things 306 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.400 on the island, so we will have to have them come in from elsewhere. 307 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:38.200 So there will be ample opportunity for people to come here, both with 308 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:42.960 advanced technologies. Because the other thing we have to try to accomplish, or 309 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.319 what I want to try to accomplish, is get as many of the vital 310 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:52.640 grid services as we can offer renewables so we don't have to run expensive power 311 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.200 plants, so that we can lower the overall costs of the system. So 312 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.640 I think, but the technology tapestry, the renewables and how it all knits 313 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.400 together, I think will be an excellent opportunity for anyone who's interested in investing 314 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:10.759 here, in providing services here and providing hardware here. We will need all 315 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.519 those things. It's an incredible exciting opportunity. I just want to say us 316 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.359 I'm really excited by the conversation and I wish you all the best really going 317 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.599 forward. Thanks to you both. Wish me well. There's it's a target 318 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.920 rich environment of things to do here. For sure. I'm glad I'm here. 319 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.720 This is doing everything I personally and professionally wanted to do. And let's 320 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.000 check in again in a year or two and see how we're progressing. Very 321 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:37.160 good, very good, very good. Again, Thanks a lot well, 322 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:42.759 Steve, thank you very much, and definitely investors should come to Jamaica not 323 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:48.079 just for the culture and the tourism, but also to the energy transition. 324 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.319 Thank you, Stephen. Yes, come here, experience the culture, experience 325 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:57.720 the people. They are a wonderful, wonderful culture with a wonderful food, 326 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:03.599 and they are happy, happy people, so everybody will appreciate that. Well 327 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.960 job, there were a lot of things I learned along the way. Can 328 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.559 you imagine that the theft or the losses are twenty eight percent of the power. 329 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.119 That's insane. You're absolutely right. I didn't think about that at all, 330 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.240 right, but yeah. Of course that means that a lot of people 331 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:25.200 simply contact for electricity and inside the mission of Steve you have great a reliability, 332 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.720 but they need to get the price lower because the price of power is 333 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.480 probably three times higher, so most a luxury to have power. It's really 334 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.759 into an energy poverty. Of course, we have to do the energy transition 335 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:42.079 here. The good news is we aligned the energy transition by the rediction of 336 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.079 the cost. We need to have lower cost Well, I think the thing 337 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.720 I took out about around was that we're living in a different era and the 338 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:55.799 era that we're living in is you do have low cost solar and batteries that 339 00:25:55.960 --> 00:26:00.000 you can integrate with the diesel jan sash and you couldn't do this ten years 340 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.599 ago. Now. The only issue, and it's a big issue, is 341 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.720 if you don't have low cost capital in terms of the dast and equity, 342 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.920 then it's going to be very, very difficult. And that's the challenge. 343 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.480 How do you do that? But my god, there's a big opportunity there 344 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.680 to do that. And then what you're doing is you're decarbonizing, you're lowering 345 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:22.960 the cost of electricity to people, and as I said, you're becoming a 346 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.400 role model for other islands. That's what I took out of it. Well, 347 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:32.799 the very important feature of Jamaica Public Service is that it's owned by Marubini 348 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:38.079 and the Koreans. It's almost investment grade and they can sign PPAs, which 349 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.400 is probably not the case in the majority of other islands. They have a 350 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.440 good balance sheets so well to managed company, which means you can bring a 351 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.440 lot of people as counter parties, and that's the most important thing. Then 352 00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:55.799 the second most important thing is the attitude of Steve, and his attitude is 353 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.640 to say, okay, wind developers, Okay, it's not going to be 354 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:02.559 a great market, but they are win resources. Provided you can manage the 355 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:07.079 hurricanes. You know, we'll give you a great PPA microgrid. It's the 356 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.400 same solar hooftops. It is the same. But also if you go a 357 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.720 bit beyond what we do on a regular basis, I'm talking about read enhancing 358 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:23.119 technologies, you can use Jamaica as a laboratory to test all your innovations and 359 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.680 all those startups in the Silicon Valley where despread, we have a pilot where 360 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:32.480 they can run and test the technology while guys go to Jamaica. Number one 361 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:37.440 was very pleasant. And number two, you have people they're willing to experiment 362 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.359 with you all your new technologies, and then you can build a track record 363 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.039 in Jamaica and then you can literally export all over the world. I like 364 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.000 that one. Thank you. Right now, I'm gotta add one other thing, 365 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.079 which I hope we have another cup event taking nature in this here, 366 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.400 and what I'm hoping that comes out of that is that the Western world agrees 367 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.200 to actually put money into the developing world. I said, it's very important 368 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:06.680 because that's how you decarbonize this type of island is again low cost money that's 369 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.799 coming in from the KfW in Germany or whoever it is. That's what's also 370 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.240 needed in and around, as you said, the Marabonis of this world, 371 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.079 who are already invested, and then that's the role model to go and scale 372 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.920 it with other technologies into other islands. That's pretty exciting, right. I 373 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.599 know why Steve Dinner, it's the reality of it, right, he can 374 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:29.000 really have an impact. I really encourage all the innovators of the world to 375 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.519 go to Jamaica and see if their innovation works. Very good. I like 376 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.960 that, and I do want to say started this off about why islands. 377 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.759 I think islands are if you want to look at the future of your power 378 00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:45.400 markets, you have to look at islands because islands are naturally firstly stressed. 379 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.160 Jamaica has great solar resources, but you know, how do you actually go 380 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.920 and integrate That's it's much more difficult for them to do that than France or 381 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.799 Germany or even California. That's why I think islands are really interested, and 382 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.440 not just them, I mean even sort of listen to the island you're living 383 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.079 on Britain the same thing, or Ireland. You know you've got lots of 384 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.279 renewables, integrating it. That's a really tough job, much harder to do 385 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.039 that than it is if you're as I said, on the continent way you 386 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:18.240 can roll lie on your neighbors sometimes sometimes okay, job. We'd like to 387 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.559 thank see for coming on the show. We support Bruce and it's the Global 388 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.480 Houlnewable Alliance, and we put the links in the show notes. And of 389 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:33.000 course we think our wonderful sponsor, PVKAS the best solot design software. Oh 390 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.519 absolutely, and you met them in as big as I did. Yeah, 391 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.000 what's very impressive about pv gays for me is just how fast they've scaled up. 392 00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.519 Because usually you see a software solution that comes in it takes a long 393 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:49.480 while. But founder came originally from the consultancy area and had a very good 394 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.599 idea and being able to almost have a plug in into the card systems, 395 00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:59.519 the architectural design systems, and it's just gone viral. It's amazingly. I 396 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.319 like what I do, excellent and we're very happy to have them as partner. 397 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.039 Job took to you into its time, look forward to my friend. 398 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.079 Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and 399 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:17.440 subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.