WEBVTT

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You are listening to the IFH podcast
Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting

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00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:13.919
podcasts, just go to IH podcast
network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof

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00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:18.320
Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number two eighty
seven. The best education in film is

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00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:24.000
to make one. Stanley Kubrick broadcasting
from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood

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when we really should be working on
that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting

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Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to

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make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's
your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome,

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Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof
Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host

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Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show
is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.

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Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof
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Slash Free. Now, guys,
today we have returning champion Steven Follows.

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Many of you might remember Stephen as
the dataman, the man who crunches the

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film data like nobody else in the
world, and he has been on the

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show multiple times and my favorite episode, of course is when we finally proved

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for once and for all that Diehard
is the greatest Christmas movie all time,

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and we looked at the numbers to
prove it. Now Steven's back on the

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show because he has launched a new
website called vod Clickstream, and what he's

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done is remarkable. He's been able
to go inside of Netflix to see what

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is actually going on in all of
their data. He's been able to come

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up with answers for questions like does
Netflix have a long tail? How do

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romantic comedies perform on Netflix? How
do scipher films perform on Netflix? Did

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American audience stream international TV shows?
How did The Office truly perform on the

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platform? Which TV genres are the
most popular on Netflix? And so so

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many more. When I heard about
this, I called up Stephen. I

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said, Stephen, you got to
come back on the show. We need

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to get this information out to the
tribe because it's just, again a snapshot

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of what Netflix was doing during the
time of twenty sixteen two end of middle

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of twenty nineteen. But it is
better than nothing, when before all that

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information had been hidden behind the walls
of Netflix. But we have been able

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to get inside of that. Now
I do have to have a disclaimer for

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this episode. All this information is
wholly independent research and is not affiliated with

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Netflix or any other streaming platform or
studio. Just wied to make that very

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very clear. So without any further
ado, please enjoy my eye opening conversation

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with Stephen follows. I like to
welcome back to the show, returning champion

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Stephen Follows. How are you doing, Stephen Dan? Very well? You

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say that every time, and I'm
starting to believe you. Well, that's

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what I'm trying to do. A
little by little, I'm building. I'm

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building you up. So I'm building
you up. I'd like it to be

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back. And your audience are always
awesome as well. Every time I'm on

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the podcast, people reach out to
me and say, hey, I heard

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you. I'm part of the tribe. I heard you an Alex's podcast,

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Hey I got And every single one
so far has been like really polite but

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also with a really interesting question or
perspective, and yeah, you've got a

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great tribe. So I'm always happy
to come back. Thank you, man,

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I appreciate that. And last time
we were on the show, we

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did that die Hard episode which was
fairly controversial. Sir, oh was it

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did you get pushback? No,
well, a couple of people, A

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couple of people. I got a
couple of dry members of like really Alex

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an entire episode about my heart and
I'm like, yes it is. But

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you know, funny enough is that
when I m h where when I m

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talk to people now about Diehard because
now I'm you know, I'm I'm an

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evangelist. Um, I go,
you know, you know that hurts it

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Christmas movie, and they'll push back
up like no, no, no,

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no, no, I have data. I have proof that dieharded. So

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I appreciate you doing the hard work
on that. And so now at parties

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or at least Zoom meetings, nowadays, I get to I get to say,

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no, no, I have got
data, here's the link, and

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I send them to our interview and
people are just like amazing, and I

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just it's always the thing you want
to hear a party when you're having a

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conversation with someone, when they go, no, no, I have the

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data. I know exactly. It's
just your life of the party. You

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are the life of the party without
without question. Um. And then I

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just released a link of the top
twelve screenplays of unconventional Christmas movies, and

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of course Diehards on the top of
that list, but I had lethal Weapon

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on there. Um, what else
did we have on their lethal Weapon?

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Gremlins, Gremolin's too good Night?
Which one? What's the one with from

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ninety seven with oh oh Davis,
Oh No, Longest good Night? Yes,

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Longest gons Longest good Night is on
there as well. A bunch of

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a bunch of Shane Black, A
bunch of Shane A bunch of Shane Black

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episode whatch I'm gonna call it screenplays
because he's he just loves, absolutely loves

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writing. I mean, I could
argue Iron Man three, but I prefer

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not. Um, you know,
Disney do do list that? And on

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Disney Plus on the Christmas movies?
Oh, I genuine yeah, I genuinely

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don't know if they're doing it to
try and stir up controversy or do they

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genuinely believe it. And before we
start on our current interview, I have

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to I'm going to list off the
list of Christmas h Christmas unconventional Christmas movies,

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Die Heart, Lethal Weapon, Kiss
Kiss Bang Bang, Uh, Gremlins,

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Gremlins to Batman Returns. Yeah,
eyes wide shut, Oh you really

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went I went there, sir,
Yes, Edwards, scissor Hands, blon

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Kids, good Night, bad Santa, Black Christmas, and Prampus. Yes,

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yes, all quite a list.
That is that. That was.

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It took me a minute to put
it together. But I had to.

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I had to. I had to. I had to. I had to

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give them love. So so just
Leaven, man. I mean, I'm

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always so impressed with everything you do. I love. You're just an insane,

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insane, insane human being. Um. In the way and the same

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way you call me insane for what
I do. It's it's a mutual admiration

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because I can never do what you
do in in twenty lifetimes, I don't

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think I'll be able to ever do
what you do. Um, But I

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was, I was. I don't
know where I saw it, because you

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kept it, you kept this to
yourself. I have to I have to

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keep this. I have to.
I have to give you props for this.

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You told me that you were working
on something big, and I'm like,

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what is it. He's like,
I can't, man, I gotta

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keep it. I gotta keep it
quiet. And I'm like, all right,

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fine, I do the same thing. That's fine. And then I

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think I saw a pop up.
Somewhere like a few weeks later and this

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thing called VOD click Stream showed up. I'm like what And I clicked on.

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I'm like, what is this?
And and I didn't get Honestly,

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I didn't connect that it was yours
for a second till I till because I

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literally had no idea what this was. And then I went to the about

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and the team and I'm like,
oh, son of up, this is

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this is Stevens. And I emailed
you right away. I'm like, what

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is this? What's going on?
So can you tell? But yeah,

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so so I did. Actually I
think it's like, what the f So

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can you tell the audience what VOD
click Stream is? Yeah, definitely.

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I'll give you the simple pitch,
and then I'll make it more complicated than

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nuance because it's got some weird sort
of qualities to it. But the simple

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pitch is that I've got an access
to a huge data set which reveals what

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people have been watching on Netflix over
a three and a half year period.

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So this is yeah, I know, it's It's something I've been chasing for

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a while. And we can talk, you know, in a minute about

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the history of the whole thing.
But it's been something I've been chasing for

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a while, and it's it feels
it's like almost more of a mission for

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me than than just a stats project, because I don't like that we don't

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know what's going on on that spot, and I think it matters, I

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think, and I think it matters, you know, for your audience and

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my audience, which are very similar. We'll be right back after a word

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from our sponsor and now back to
the show. Like, the studios must

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have a better idea than the average
filmmaker, and we don't have the kind

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of of openness and transparency that we
have on theatrical or in other areas.

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And crucially, everyone's experience of s
FOD is so different. My wife and

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I share a Netflix account, but
we have our own profiles, but they're

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so different. If we're accidentally locked
one with hers, I'm like, oh

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my god, it's all pink,
white Sonutri Bullock and everything. Mind,

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Like, why is everything so sad
and exploding? And the thing is what

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that means is that even two people
who like live together still can't get a

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sense from their own experience. Whereas
when you go to the theater and you

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see if it's full. You see
lines, you know, you hear about

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it, and we have the same
shared experience. So because of that,

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because of the s FOD is so
highly personalized, you can't get any clues

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how things are doing. And they
started to release a little bits more data

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in the last few months and stuff, but compared to what we're used to

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getting on the box office, and
even that's not enough. Like how a

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filmmakers supposed to know what to do, what people want to watch? Like,

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what is this new realm that is
dominant eating so much of the value

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chain is only going to dominate more
of it. And obviously COVID and LEFT

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I just don't know how else we're
supposed to do this. So this is

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an answer to that. I guess
it's not perfect, but it's it's pretty

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unusual and I think really powerful.
And we've only just begun. Really,

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this isn't a project where I've launched
a finished thing. Here's a report,

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go read it. It's like,
okay, the work begins now. So

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this is essentially the wholy gril.
This is, this is this is El

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Dorado for you as far as data. As far as data is concerned,

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no, it's neither is the Holy
Neither is the Holy Gril or El Dorado

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for that matter. I get the
WiFi is terrible in Eldorado. It's horrible.

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It really, I've been there.
It's not it's not pleasant. Is

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that why you left? Yeah?
Yeah, I just left. I mean

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I grabbed a couple of things along
the way, but left. But yeah.

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So it's like it's been really exciting. And the volume of data and

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the complexity of the data is it's
an order of magnitude, much bigger than

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I'm used to dealing with. So
it's not just me. I've had some

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help from some amazing data signs.
And most of them, I mean two

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of them have PhDs and theoretical physics, you know, they deal with things

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like dark matter and whether the standard
model of the universe as we understand it

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is correct or not. And then
I start talking to them about like what

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we know about Netflix and and they're
like, Wow, we know more about

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dark matter. We know more about
the origins of the universe than we know

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about what a film performed on Netflix. And I was like, ah,

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do you want to like join the
team, Let's figure something out. And

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you're India. You're Indiana, Jones
and you're putting together a team. They're

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almost all physicists, like we're the
team is more I think it has more

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theoretical physicists than people who are not
a theoretical physicist. And by the way,

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I'm one of them not And so
it's been kind of bonkers because not

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only are they very talented data scientists, but also they're used to dealing with

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abstract ideas and abstract numbers, and
actually you need to deal with that.

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I mean, we'll talk about this
later on. I'm sure some of the

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ideas in how you analyze this get
quite abstracted quite quickly, because it's not

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as simple as like, you know, box office. You say how much

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money did it make? Even that's
a bit flat because you don't know if

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it was lots of kids or fewer
adults, or peak time or off.

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But generally it's comparative, you account
for inflation, you can sort of sort

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of out with this data. It's
so much more complicated than that to try

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and get straightforward, simple answers,
and so that's why they were so they

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just had all the right training for
it, and it was just a joy

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to work with those just incredibly smart
talented people and sort of see if we

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can do something interesting for the film
community. I have a theory, see

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if it. I feel that the
reason why people take you seriously, it's

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not only because of your work ethic
and your talent, but I truly believe

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it's you. It's your it's your
accent. Because everything you say I mean,

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I mean it's it sounds so legit. Like if you if you would

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like, listen, my friend,
I have some land to sell you,

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some swampland to sell you in Florida. I'd be continue. But you know

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that you have a voice for excitement. Let me tell you something exciting.

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I'll be like, Oh, so
if we joined forces, Stephen, we

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could rule the war or we could
ruin each other. Very true, very

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true, served very very true.
Okay, So how okay, so you're

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essentially going inside the algorithm of Netflix's
ex something like that. Not quite that.

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So, so this it doesn't come
from Netflix themselves. There's no data

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breach. We haven't scraped it,
we haven't taken it from them in any

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sense. What's happened is it utilizes
this sort of type of data called click

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stream data. And what click stream
data is is that people have volunteered,

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they've signed up, they've opted in
to install plugins and services and things like

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that in their browser and other things
like that, and that these let's say

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plugins are really useful, you know, they maybe they're a really good trend

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later tool, or they just do
a certain thing really well, and they're

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free for the users. And the
deal is that in return for that,

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the users agree that they're anonymized history. Their click stream, all the clicks

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they made essentially can be sent to
a server and put into a big bucket

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and that sort of fire hose of
millions and millions of people. They're anonymized

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history allows us to see what the
journey they made around the web. And

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so the actual raw click stream which
I don't have, which is the full,

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like epic amounts of data. You
can imagine millions of people clicking constantly

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or around the world. That is
so valuable to so many people in so

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many different ways. You know,
you could get a sense of how popular

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something is before the quarterly reports come
out. You could see how people are

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buying things on Amazon. All that
what I wanted was the tiniest slice of

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it, and I just wanted I
actually wanted all the spot streamers, but

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Netflix was, for various reasons,
the best one to go for. And

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I've been chasing these guys for a
while, and I was like, because

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I've known about this for a few
years, and I have said, look,

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just give me access to the Netflix
slice Netflix dot com because it could

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be really instructive and very useful for
filmmakers and stuff like that. And because

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of the nature of the click stream
industry, it's a small industry that makes

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highly expensive content data, and so
they were quoting massive figures, like five

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figures a month, a massive high
end, and it was just impossible.

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And then so I've been talking to
them every six months or so, I

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catch up and go, hey,
have you suddenly sort of decided that your

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data is worth far less than it
was? And they're like nope. And

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then around the summer of twenty nineteen, there was a sort of big shift

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in the click stream data world where
there was a there was a sort of

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a perfect storm of a few different
things, like some of the brows that

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the big browsers changed some of their
rules about what their plugins and extensions could

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do and what data they could share. Generally, people were getting tighter on

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privacy and so things that they were
happy to share in the past they were

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less happy to share now. And
just so all these sort of things came

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together and so the clixtream industry transformed
and sort of what a lot of the

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business models they had imploded, and
some of the companies are still around doing

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other things, but basically it kind
of that version of it kind of ended

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in the summer or twenty nineteen,
and so towards the end of last year,

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in the beginning of this year,
so the beginning of twenty twenty,

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I went back to them and said, look, you've got this now of

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static data set, and I can't
offer you load of money. I can't

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there's no I don't know if the
values in that, and I can't do

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much with it, but I know
that it's fascinating and for filmmakers and could

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be very instructive. Please can you
basically give me the Netflix data? So

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I worked out a deal with them, which didn't which was possible to do,

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and then so then they gave me
about two thirds of a billion data

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points. And so first of all, it was it's just the volume is

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like it's just and you know,
they get they gave me a sample.

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You can only have a million rows
in Excel before it crashes, and before

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it didn't won't load any more rows. And they gave me a sample of

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the data and it was like day
one, hour one. An Xcel was

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like, that was an hour.
It was day one, But an excelent

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can't can't look at anymore. And
so that that volume is amazing because it's

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it's really granular. And so what
I ended up with was, these are

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anonymized users. So each user has
a randomly generated ID which resets over a

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certain period, and I know what
country they're in, and I know what

264
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you r l. They clicked on
exactly the time and the day, and

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that's pretty much it. There's a
bit of metadata that's pretty much it.

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And so in and of itself,
a click isn't doesn't mean anything, but

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when you add them together you can
infer meaning. So you could say this

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person clicked on the Netflix link that
is the watch page for a bit of

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content, and the content of twenty
two minutes long. They waited twenty two

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minutes and then they clicked on the
next one. Well that you can reasonably

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assume that they viewed it right,
And you also can see what people have

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searched for and things like that.
So we have all this data. It

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has sort of three big limitations.
The first is it's historical, so our

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data starts in the beginning of twenty
sixteen and ends in the summer or two

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nineteen, so it's like three and
a half years. It's a shame it's

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not live that everyone asks me,
can it be live? And the answer

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is always sadly not. But if
it were live, I wouldn't be able

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to get access to it, So
it's kind of it's this or nothing.

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Secondly, it's only desktop and laptop
users, which Netflix say are about twenty

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five percent of their audience, and
so we didn't know if that would have

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a skew or not, like whether
people watch fundamentally different content on their desktop

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and laptop than they do another on
TV or tablets or whatever. We'll be

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right back after a word from our
sponsor, and now back to the show.

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So the first thing we did was
that we went about recreating the stats

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that Netflix had announced during that period. So when they've said bird Box got

286
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x number of views or was the
number one film within the first two weeks

287
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or whatever, whatever, it was
like any data point that they said in

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a press release, we would go
back to our data and try and recreate

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it. You know, we would
perform the same analysis, and time and

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time again we were getting the same
answers they were getting. So because of

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that analysis, I'm very very confident
that the big picture we have is a

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very very good model of what they
have. There'll always been cases where it's

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slightly different or whatever, but fundamentally, considering we're starting with nothing, I

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think we're very happy with that was
wracking period. So then you don't know

295
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how many people actually watched Koba Kai
or Tagger Kick, no exactly. That's

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what's so interesting is so what we
have is we do have a number for

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how many people within these panel of
users watched it, but we don't know

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exactly how that scales up. So
what we've had to do is if we

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had every single click on Netflix dot
Com, then you'd have your viewing figures,

300
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right, you'd have a raw number. But because we have a flecture

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eating panel and we've had to account
for like different factors, Like first of

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all, over the course of these
three and a half years, this size

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of Netflix subscriber base has changed it's
basically grown and it's paunched in different countries.

304
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That the number of people using these
plugins and services has changed, gone

305
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up and down, and maybe they
break into a new country or a tool

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gets taken off, and so that's
changed. And then also, how you

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compare a piece of content that,
let's say it was only available for one

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year in twenty sixteen, how do
you compare the performance of that film with

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another film that was out in twenty
nineteen or something, or two and eighteen

310
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or whatever. How do you compare
them because they weren't available at the same

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time. And so what we had
to do is basically normalize all of these

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views per day, per country,
per type. What that basically means is,

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for every single country, we've said, on this particular day, what

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was the most watched film, and
then comparing all the other films to that

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film, So like film number two, the second most popular film got seventy

316
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percent of the views, the first
one did and the third one got sixty

317
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percent or whatever. And then that
then gives us comparable things because you can

318
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say, within all the films that
are available, how did each of them

319
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perform? And then that allows us
to then create scores overall over those three

320
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and a half year period. So
this is where the scientists were really useful

321
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:23.599
because they're you know, comparing this
content across time and space and different planel

322
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.640
sizes in the dark matter and then
the beginnings of the universe and so getta

323
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Okay, So all right, So
the last the last limitation is that we

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00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.319
don't have demographic information. We don't
have IP addresses, we don't know age,

325
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.880
gender, like we know what country
they're in. But that's it's all

326
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:45.599
right, So all right, so
let's um, let's let's ask some some

327
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:48.160
tough questions and see what you can
do to help us, because the reason

328
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why filmmakers are listening is like,
we find this very fascinating how you're getting

329
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.920
this data about how does this helped
me? So, um, does Netflix

330
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have a long tail? Is that
something that that you were able to come

331
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.400
on That's exactly something we're able to
look at. So the long tail idea

332
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.920
was was made sort of most famous
by an article in Wide in two thousand

333
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:15.319
and four, and it was this
prediction based on the idea of growing digital

334
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.960
platforms like Amazon selling books and DVDs
at the time, but the idea being

335
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that previously, when you have a
physical shop, you make most of your

336
00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:27.119
money from the top titles, top
ten, top hundred, whatever the ones

337
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.200
you can have in the front of
the store, right and that's where you

338
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.119
make your money. The concept of
the long tail is that the way at

339
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.519
Amazon in the future will make their
money is actually through all of the other

340
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.119
inventory, the other hundred thousand titles, some of which that only sell one

341
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:47.559
or two every every year or whatever, but there's enough of them on total,

342
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.440
and so it becomes about the misses, not the hits, you know.

343
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And so this was an idea that
was put out there and some people

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support it to people don't. And
how it relates to us is that we

345
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already know that the box office doesn't
really have a long tail. We know

346
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.200
that three quarters of all of the
money made in the box office goes to

347
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.960
the top fifty films each year.
Like it's heavily, heavily skewed towards these

348
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.720
top movies. So the other however, many you know, seven eight hundred

349
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:21.519
movies released that year are competing for
the final quarter. And that is not

350
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.640
great because it makes it very hard
for us to compete because we're if you're

351
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.119
not big, You're nothing, right. So one of the first things we

352
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.759
wanted to test was, Okay,
well, we know that the movie industry

353
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.039
is already top heavy, already massively
disproportionately supports the big films. But if

354
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.839
we took on this long tail idea, maybe Netflix would be a place where

355
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.640
lots of the smaller movies would do
well everyone, which is something different,

356
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:52.000
but it doesn't matter overall because Netflix
are happy, and maybe that's our savior,

357
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.200
you know, maybe it's a fairer
space for us all to compete in

358
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:02.359
and loads of tiny movies can equally
survi. So that was a big thing

359
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.720
for me to look at, and
I gotta say it's disappointing but not surprising

360
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:14.200
news. So basically, the viewing
patterns on Netflix are slightly more skewed towards

361
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:19.279
big films than the box office,
which means that most people on Netflix are

362
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:25.519
watching a small amount of massive bits
of content, which was mostly in the

363
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.680
US, it was mostly Disney films. Like Disney, they had a deal

364
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.960
with Netlik which is now finished,
but that accounted for a huge proportion of

365
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:40.319
Netflix's views, and it really was
a problem for Netflix when Disneys ended that

366
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.640
deal. I don't know the ins
and outs of the deals, but what

367
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.559
I can tell you is that they
lost their best performing content in a number

368
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.920
of different realms. Yeah, and
the Office and the Office as well got

369
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.839
last because it went over to is
it an HBO Max or somewhere else?

370
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:00.000
Presumably it's peacock because it's right right, right, yeah, And so yeah,

371
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:04.160
the Office is The Office is a
great example because the Office allows us

372
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.400
we've got all the stats on the
episodes of the Office, and because all

373
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.559
episodes of the Office were available across
our entire time period, it's actually really

374
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:17.319
easy for us to compare the performance
of different episodes. We actually don't have

375
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:22.240
to worry about accounting for time and
availability and stuff. And so we've actually

376
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:26.599
used that as as a good example
to look at how might the nature of

377
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:33.880
s VOD viewing change the way we
think about filmed content. What I mean

378
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680
is right, So in TV we're
used to having seasons, you know,

379
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.920
because of the way that they're funded
and broadcast and just the way that it's

380
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.359
evolved. We are used to having
a piece of content. So having a

381
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.720
series that has got a beginning,
middle, and end. Maybe it's got

382
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.519
an arc across the season, and
the beginning and the end of the season

383
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:56.640
is significant and then we wait and
whatever. But that doesn't there's time is

384
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.400
less of a factor with things like
Netflix, like it's not relevant, but

385
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.319
it's far less of It doesn't matter
whether it's summer or winter. You just

386
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:07.440
watch them, binging them. So
when we looked at all the viewing figures

387
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:10.839
of all of the episodes of the
Office, we noticed a couple of really

388
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.119
fascinating things, which is, first
of all, the most popular season was

389
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:19.119
season four, not seasons one or
two, which is kind of interesting and

390
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.640
I think it's about that was where
it really hits stride and where people start

391
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.039
watching it or maybe where they rewatch
it as well. But we couldn't see.

392
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:30.720
If you have a look at the
chart of viewing figures across, you

393
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.519
know, on the left hand side
you've got season one, episode one,

394
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:36.759
on the right hand one, you've
got the last one in season eight or

395
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:38.200
nine, whenever the last one was, And you have all the viewing figures

396
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.880
as a line, sort of a
line going up and down across across those

397
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.720
two points. You can't see where
the seasons begin and end. You know,

398
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:51.839
they may make them as seasons,
but people don't watch them as seasons,

399
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.839
so it's much more like a podcast
than a radio series. Right,

400
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.279
So you might think a radio series
has got a season, and only in

401
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.440
the UK the BBC have like,
okay, this will be six or maybe

402
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.400
ten episodes of a radio series.
Then they'll be a hiatus and then they'll

403
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.039
come back, whereas podcasts you just
think are always going to continue, right

404
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:14.519
you just it's a long stream of
content. It's like a soap opera rather

405
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.200
than a mini series, and that's
how people watch the content. And so

406
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.039
I don't know how long it will
be, but it seems inevitable based on

407
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.640
data we have that when people start
making more content for Netflix, they're going

408
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.920
to move more and more to this
sort of soap world where they're always making

409
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:36.599
them like a churn, like even
the expensive ones. From the way people

410
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:40.839
watch them, it makes sense to
just drop a new episode every two weeks

411
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.799
forever. Then it does to quickly
go and make ten of them. I

412
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:47.359
mean, the economics of the production
costs might be different. You might want

413
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:51.920
to film all in one location,
but the production costs are not a big

414
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.400
concern if you get a Netflix hit. So maybe we're going to start seeing

415
00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:03.279
seasons of indefinite lengthy break breaking down
like how long episodes are, Like I've

416
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:07.319
just been watching them. There's some
brilliant comedians called Auntie Donna, Australian comedians.

417
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.079
They've got a Netflix series it's just
come out, which is incredible.

418
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:15.559
But they some of their episodes are
like seventeen minutes long, and it's great

419
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.160
because every second is great, but
they don't have to stretch it to twenty

420
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:25.640
two thirty minutes whatever it would have
to be for TV. So, you

421
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.279
know, So with with all this
information, are you seeing because I've been

422
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.960
reading a lot that Netflix, you
know, is infamous for just canceling shows.

423
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.200
Um, some of the people's favorite
shows just get canceled. And they're

424
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:40.519
like, you know what's grew you. We don't care because we're gonna get

425
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.359
We're gonna put out twenty new shows
this month. We'll be right back after

426
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:52.640
a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show. And they

427
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:57.599
generally don't go past three four seasons, you know, five. I mean,

428
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:03.519
I think frank Grace and Frankie is
one of the longest running shows on

429
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:10.359
Netflix. Oranges a New Black got
canceled ended eventually and they don't seem to

430
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:15.039
care about letting things go on and
on and on and on, because they

431
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.599
just rather just starts filthing from scratch. And I think it's because mostly because

432
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.079
of the talent costs and and thing
it's going to say, I don't I

433
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.920
have no inside track to Netflix,
and the data doesn't give me all of

434
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.079
what I'm saying here. So some
of this is filling in the gaps or

435
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.640
my opinions, sure, but I
would say that the cancelation for most of

436
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.440
these things comes down to exactly what
you'd expect, which is number one cost

437
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.759
and number two talent, which is
a related to cost because they are they

438
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.880
asking for more money each season,
and crucially, do they want still want

439
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:51.319
to do it? And obviously Netflix
are going to cancel shows that they don't

440
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.599
think are performing, but they could
do with more content almost always, And

441
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.720
if you think about it, what
they actually really want. They obviously want

442
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.200
content that everybody watches that's amazing,
that would be great, But one of

443
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.240
the other things that's actually really important
for their business model is content that's important

444
00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:12.240
to some people, like really important. So let's say that hypothetically, you

445
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.960
and I both have a Netflix account
and let's say that you watch loads of

446
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.759
different TV shows every every month,
you watch thirty different shows. If I

447
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:25.160
watch just two shows every month,
but both of us pay the same fee,

448
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.279
that those two shows are that I
watch are more valuable to Netflix because

449
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.440
if they canceled those two, or
maybe even just one of them, maybe

450
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.160
I would leave. But if they
canceled ten of the thirty that you watch,

451
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.519
you've probably be watched the other twenty
and maybe some other ones. So

452
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.079
the model that they're having to use
here is not just not just the number

453
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:52.039
of people watching it, but it's
how valuable they are to that particular audiences.

454
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.680
Yeah, exactly, So that's what
I mean. It's a whole different

455
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.039
business model. Whereas on television you're
saying how many people are watching it and

456
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.960
what demographic are they in, Like, that's that's what's driving content on television,

457
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:10.799
um, and what's driving content on
Netflix is different, completely different.

458
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:17.279
And so what I have to ask
the question, what does the lowly independent

459
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:21.720
filmmaker? How did their stats work? I mean, obviously you said that

460
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:27.000
they're mostly skewed towards the big movies
or big stars. I mean I saw

461
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:34.359
an interview or an article discussing why
Adam Sandler is one of the biggest stars

462
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.480
on Netflix and that's and like people
like, why does he keep making these

463
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.920
movies? Why why does Netflix keep
giving him money? Why? I mean,

464
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.640
like, I'm personally a fan of
Adams, so I love his stuff.

465
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:47.359
Um, not everything, but most
of his stuff. And the thing

466
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:52.400
that they said was in the article
was was really interesting and it made a

467
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:58.519
whole lot of sense. Was the
reason why Adam Sandler is is given these

468
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:02.039
kind of movies and these kind of
deals, Because when you're scanning through an

469
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:08.680
spot platform, there's just so much
content that when you see something familiar,

470
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:13.680
when you see an Adam Sandler movie, you know what you're going to get,

471
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.319
Like there's there's no mystery about Like, I think he just in this

472
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:22.400
Halloween. They just released Hawley something
or other Halloween, Hawley Halloween or something

473
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.079
like that, which was a huge, huge hit. They're going to do

474
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:29.920
a sequel to it because so many
people watched it and it's the same you

475
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.519
know, it's the same stuff Adam
Sandler has been doing since Billy Madison and

476
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.640
Happy Gilmore. But because of people's
comfortability with they know what they're going to

477
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:42.000
get. People watch and watch and
watch. We see a lot of that.

478
00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:45.039
I mean, there's a lot of
brands that do very well in a

479
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.400
brand, Adam Sandler being a brand
hit that does very well on Netflix,

480
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:51.480
and I think that some of it
is down to is absolutely what you're saying.

481
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.839
I think with him, there's also
not that much competition. You know,

482
00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:00.240
there aren't many substitutes. What's the
Adam Sandlers substitute. Well, Kevin

483
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:05.519
James is in most of Adam Sandler's
films, so is David Spade. There

484
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:07.719
isn't a lot of competition. And
I think that there's something you touched on

485
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:12.800
there which is incredibly important, which
is the way that people invest in the

486
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.079
time they're spending watching stuff on squad
is a lot more about relax time and

487
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.719
not making a decision and stuff like
that. And I think that speaks to

488
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.599
why Adam Sandler's popular, but also
why it's the same film as people are

489
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.760
watching, and they're watching the same
TV shows again and again rather than watching

490
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:34.440
new ones. And I think that
actually doesn't help independent filmmakers because we're making

491
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.480
stuff that doesn't have famous people,
doesn't have existing brands, and more often

492
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:42.559
than not, is trying to challenge
something. I'm not suggesting we're all trying

493
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.639
to pass on a message or communicating, but it's not the same. It's

494
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:49.400
not the kind of soccer and stuff
you might get from Transformers or a Disney

495
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.320
movie or Adam Sandler, where you're
like, Okay, I'm just going to

496
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.119
go with the flow. Most independent
filmmakers are making something a bit spikier than

497
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:59.559
that, and I think that doesn't
suit most of the way people watch Netflix.

498
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.519
And so I think when your question
about what is assuming that Netflix is

499
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.320
what we've learned so far from Netflix, it applies to the other platforms and

500
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:15.800
continues broadly in the future, I'd
say that it's not great for selling independent

501
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:22.119
content because first of all, what
these platforms like Netflix want is the MCU.

502
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.119
They want the Marvel Cinematic Universe because
the people will watch it. They

503
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.760
also can do one deal and get
loads of it, and that will get

504
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.480
most their views. They don't want
to do individual deals. The audience aren't

505
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:36.880
watching that content the other the independent
content, so there's not much of a

506
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.360
drive for that, and so I
think that's not great. However, what

507
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:45.920
I would say is in the same
way right now, I wouldn't invest in

508
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.039
any of the companies that own theaters. I would still invest in the concept

509
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:52.960
of theater going because I think people
go on dates, they see their mates.

510
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:57.039
It's a cheap for it's it's the
cheapest, most social form of going

511
00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.000
out with the lowest effort. And
I think that what's happening right now,

512
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:02.400
I mean I just happened. I
was reading a few days ago that Netflix

513
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.440
have spent two billion pounds in the
UK alone on content this year on production.

514
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:15.079
So independent filmmakers might have many more
roots to being employed than they would

515
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.440
have had previously, as in if
their previous roots were big movies or TV

516
00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:21.400
shows, they now have a whole
new realm they could compete in. I

517
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:22.639
don't know how, I don't know
how fair that system is. I don't

518
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:28.400
know, but certainly there's got to
be more and more entry level people because

519
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.880
there's just more concurrent, more content
being made complently. Oh yeah, here

520
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.039
in me here in New Mexico,
they're they're expanding. Netflix just got approval

521
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:42.320
from the state to expand their studios. They're building out a massive studio complex

522
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:45.519
in that's going to hire people,
it's going to high create of course below

523
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:50.039
the line, and so as filmmakers
like that's and also there are some interesting

524
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:52.440
things Netflix is. It's very easy
to think of them as a studio and

525
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.840
they're actually fundamentally not. They are
a technology company and they bring a lot

526
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.400
of different values into what they're doing. I mean, I would argue that

527
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.840
they are one of the most forefront
of HR in the film industry human resources,

528
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.039
like they actually are able normally when
you if you work on if you're

529
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:15.039
below the line crew member, and
you work on six different independent productions in

530
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:19.480
a year, you can expect to
have six different relationships and no concurrent,

531
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.679
no sort of handover really beyond a
mild relationship and the sense there's something bad

532
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:25.920
happens, you just try your luck
again and the next one. Whereas here,

533
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:30.679
because there's a continuity of people being
the higher end, you know,

534
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:35.679
Netflix care whether there's a complaint about
somebody, and this is great for things

535
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.400
like sexual harassment or unfair treatment or
discrimination. I'm not saying they're going to

536
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.840
solve everything, but there is a
continuity there. I mean some of the

537
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.000
studios have tried that. Warner have
been doing that for a bit, and

538
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.119
Disney to some degree, but no
one to the extent Netflix are doing this,

539
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.679
so they are doing some things very
differently, and as individuals it might

540
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:58.880
be a good thing. As people
buying and selling content the way we've used

541
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:04.199
to doing it, I just can't
see it being better than it was because

542
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:07.039
it's also an oligopoly, you know. I don't I'm not suggesting they're acting

543
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:13.320
in any way to blisters, but
when you have five or six possible maybe

544
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.519
even let's say three or four,
actually no, hold them. So Apple

545
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:21.079
aren't buying existing content. So let's
say that it's Amazon and Netflix. Let's

546
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:22.880
say that they're the only two that
could you could sell your content too in

547
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:28.599
any big way. That's not going
to engender you fair prices. And you're

548
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.800
doing a single deal in perpetunity for
the world. Maybe maybe, And so

549
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.679
that's that's a simpler to sale.
If you get a good price, then

550
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:40.159
that's that's amazing. But will you
get a good price? And I also

551
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:45.880
think there's some worrying practices. I
don't think any of them are illegal,

552
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.719
but I don't like them. It's
all I can say. So for example,

553
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:51.679
I was talking to a lawyer recently
who's sort of looked over a lot

554
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.119
of deals to one of the big
streamers. I won't say which one,

555
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.360
And this lawyer said, look,
one of the problems is that part of

556
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.559
the terms and conditions of the deal
between the distributor and the platform is that

557
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.960
the distributor is not allowed to tell
the filmmakers how their film is performing.

558
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.920
There has to be some sense of
aggregation of the numbers. And you know,

559
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.440
yeah, so it's horrible that.
Not only is that horrible in a

560
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.199
human sense, that is also terrible
for that deal, and it also and

561
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.320
stifles long term growth, like how
can you have a sustainable career on as

562
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.480
you get feedback and your feedback can't
be We did a deal, but I

563
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:31.360
can't tell you anymore. And that
brings us full circle back to the Vietly

564
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:36.920
click stream because that's what we're trying
to get a sliver of light in a

565
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.199
dark room. Like it's not like
we can illuminate everything, but we're trying

566
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:45.760
to understand these things that filmmakers need, this feedback loop that needs to happen

567
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.559
with the audience. We'll be right
back after a word from our sponsor,

568
00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:00.400
and now back to the show.
Now do now our American ARTI this streaming

569
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:06.440
a lot of international shows because I
personally watched a bunch of international shows um

570
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.519
recently because they've been popping up on
my on my my feed, so I'm

571
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:14.480
like, oh, that looks interesting, Oh that looks interesting. And sometimes

572
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:15.679
they'll they'll pitch me something. I'm
like, yeah, no, no,

573
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.199
thank you, I need yea.
And it just depends. Like you know,

574
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:27.719
I'll watch subtitled movies, but not
normally because I want to relax when

575
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.639
I'm watching movies unless I'm watching it
for for cinematic purposes. But if I'm

576
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:36.119
just chilling, I don't want to
read. I just well, also,

577
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.159
you don't want to be challenged.
Like there are some movies that I would

578
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:42.960
in a heartbeat recommend to other people
that I've only ever seen once. I

579
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.679
might see again once in the future, but only to introduce it to someone

580
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:50.599
else, or because you know some
bizarres at second stongs. Yeah, there

581
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.599
are bad movies that I will acknowledge
that are bad. That I've seen The

582
00:40:52.719 --> 00:41:00.320
Meg twice. Right, it's you
that's the wrong ratio. It is it

583
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:01.679
is the wrong ratio. And you
know what the Meg. You know,

584
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:07.039
I watched The Meg as well,
and it's just a it's a popcorn movie.

585
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:08.800
It's you know, it's there,
it's the it's the reason why I

586
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.480
just it's the reason why my wife
and I just sat down and watched all

587
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.519
four lethal weapons in a row because
we watched the first one because I hadn't

588
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:19.559
seen the first one forever, and
I'm like, oh my god, that's

589
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.679
so brilliant. Well we have to
watch two, Oh, we have to

590
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.639
watch three. Well, well let's
just let's just go. Let's make it

591
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:28.079
the fall four. And in four
days we watched for all four of them,

592
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:30.960
and we're just like, what's next, Let's watch Tango in Cash,

593
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.400
you know, like, like I
haven't seen that in twenty years, so

594
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.000
it's like, I'm going But it
actually says exactly what you've been saying,

595
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:45.119
is I'm doing that because I know
that I'm comfortable. Those are comfortable viewing

596
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.360
habits, and I'm like, oh, let me go revisit that again because

597
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:52.559
I haven't seen that and forever I
remember here and there, but I haven't

598
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:55.480
seen it. So that is the
true response to being overwhelmed with content,

599
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.360
because you know that there are so
many movies been out there, and if

600
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.760
you had to create a list,
how would you find brilliant movies you hadn't

601
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.559
seen. It would take you seconds. IMDb score, Meta score one the

602
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.360
best screenplay, and there's loads of
movies that you'd be like, Wow,

603
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.719
I'm sure I heard that's amazing,
I've not seen it. But that all

604
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:14.599
takes a lot more effort and commitment
than most people are willing to give.

605
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:17.519
And this is something that I think
filmmakers, really independent filmakers really need to

606
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.360
either embrace or realize you're not going
to embrace it, and then find other

607
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.079
roots. Both are valid. Like
I'm not actually saying make popcorn movies.

608
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:30.639
I'm just saying you can't make challenging
movies and expect them to then survive in

609
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:36.639
a mainstream environment called world, because
that's not how people watch that content,

610
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.880
right, It's just fundamentally and I
think the growth of content, sorry,

611
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.599
the evolution of content, and the
growth of platforms are massively interlinked. And

612
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.480
the best example I can give you
is outside of the film world, but

613
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.079
is kind of makes a lot of
sense, which is that the rise of

614
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:59.679
Kindle the kindled eReader was a massive
part of the success of fifty Shades of

615
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.039
Gray, and fifty stades degree was
a massive part of success of the Kindle

616
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:07.679
because you could be on the train
reading something, reading basically soft porn and

617
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.000
no one would know. And both
of those two things sort of coincided at

618
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:15.360
the same sort of time. And
it's not that everyone reading stuff and Mkindle

619
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:19.000
was porn, but it did mean
that you could read private things. And

620
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.239
it's the same with the rise of
sort of portable devices and podcasting. You

621
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:25.400
know, these things are interlinked,
right, And so what we're seeing,

622
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:30.800
what we're starting to understand with s
food is that people don't watch content in

623
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:36.679
a curated way the way that they
might when they go to a certain type

624
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:38.199
of theater or they go to like
you know, they could Draft House,

625
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:42.880
or they or they watch or they
buy a Blue Ray or the Criterion collection.

626
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:46.760
You know, they considered centiphile way. That's not what people are largely

627
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:51.920
doing on these big platforms. They're
sitting down watching stuff that's comfortable, that

628
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:54.960
it's easy to understand, that won't
challenge them, that they can pause when

629
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:58.320
there's someone at the door, or
they want a cup of coffee or something

630
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:02.719
that is Adam Sandler through and through. No, there's no there's no question,

631
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:06.599
I mean. And the other thing
is like you're saying movies that challenge

632
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:08.119
you, you should also you can
make movies that challenge you, but you've

633
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:10.519
got to do it on a budget. If you you know, if you

634
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.280
if you have any hopes of recouping
that money, like you can't make it

635
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:19.760
two or three million dollars. You
know Indie film that five people want to

636
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.360
watch, she's just irresponsible. So
there's more, you know, the more

637
00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:24.360
it just makes sense. The more
you spend them, more you've got to

638
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:28.199
recoup. But I and I totally
agree with that. I think the other

639
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.159
thing that I know you've been screaming
at this at people for since way before

640
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.360
Netwix, but it's even more the
case now, which is you have to

641
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:38.400
know your distribution route before you make
it. I'm not saying do the deal,

642
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.800
because I appreciate that it's very hard
to walk into room and say,

643
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.039
I haven't met, you don't know
me, you don't know my movie,

644
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:45.239
and I haven't made it, but
can I have a deal. I appreciate

645
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:49.760
that as kind of pre sales and
happened, but you can't hope that you're

646
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:53.480
just going to throw it in with
the with the sort of stream of content

647
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:57.880
and including the streamers and it will
get swept up and then it will rise

648
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.639
to the surface. It just from
the data I've seen here, that just

649
00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:05.159
doesn't happen. That's just not the
case. You can't write a book and

650
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:08.159
expect it to be on the front
page of Amazon or in the in the

651
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:13.159
front of the bookshops, right,
we know, and yet filmmakers still think

652
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:16.360
if it's good enough, it will
break through. And I do worry somewhat

653
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:21.280
that the way the squad platforms are
working now, through no fault of theirs,

654
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:27.159
they're just chasing the subscribers in the
bottom line is that it isn't It

655
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:32.760
doesn't reward films the way that the
previous system would to some degree. You

656
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:38.280
know, maybe we'll see fewer breakouts. Maybe it will be that the where

657
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:42.679
you really break out is on a
much smaller platform, like for example,

658
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:47.440
film festivals, whether they're physical or
online, or maybe it's niche sites like

659
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:50.760
Shutter or something like that. I
don't know why I don't have anything on

660
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:54.960
that side, but that is nowhere
near the volume that Netflix does or Netflix

661
00:45:55.159 --> 00:46:00.480
Compartion appears. So there is we
all know that there's huge amounts up in

662
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:04.280
the air. Partly it was happening
anyway, and then COVID accelerated and things

663
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.239
like that, and it hasn't landed
yet. But we don't yet know what

664
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:12.320
this model will be for independent filmmakers. I am absolutely confident independent film will

665
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.000
exist, because it's not It's never
been supply and demand. It's always been

666
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.079
supply right where can I find the
demand? And that's been part of the

667
00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:22.679
joy of like movies, they've not
been made. Some of the best movies

668
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.239
have been made because they want to
be made rather than because I know.

669
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:27.920
I know, I already have a
deal in place, but things are going

670
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.039
to get tougher until we figure out
what they are. But if I have,

671
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:34.360
it's never been easy. And you
look at some you know, the

672
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:38.400
crash of cinema tickets in the nineteen
fifties, you look at the crash of

673
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:43.599
DVD, and you look at the
uncertainty of sward and all this stuff there.

674
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.599
We'll find a way, but just
don't know what that is yet.

675
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:51.159
And it's not the one. It's
not the easy one that's in front of

676
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.360
us, you know. And so
you are asking earlier on about TV because

677
00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:00.039
we have we have data for movies
for TV and for comedy specials, and

678
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:05.840
for TV it's it's it's the same
pattern in a different format. So what

679
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.320
we saw with movies is that the
most watched movies by a huge degree are

680
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:14.639
the big, famous ones. And
when it comes to television, what we

681
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.159
tend to find is that it is
the big shows, but also it's the

682
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:21.960
more familiar shows. So if you
go on if you're in the US and

683
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:24.920
you go on Netflix, there's content
from many different countries you could choose to

684
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:29.719
watch. But what do people watch. They watch it from their own country,

685
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.320
you know, and generally yeah,
yeah, exactly. And certainly if

686
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:38.039
you look at the like the top
shows, like the top fifty shows,

687
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.320
they're almost all produced in the US. And you have to even the top

688
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:47.360
five hundred most watched shows not episodes
shows on Netflix over this period, almost

689
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:52.719
three quarters of them were US produced. The UK does very well, but

690
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:58.119
that's largely down to the Great British
Baking Show and things like things. David

691
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:02.079
Adam, I would have to say, I've seen both. Well. I

692
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:05.559
think it's so interesting is that,
first of all, I was as proud

693
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:08.159
as like, great, these these
Brits are surviving and competing against that,

694
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:12.320
and I was like, oh,
notes two shows. There's an example like

695
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.800
what this means is though there's an
interesting like thought process that goes on here.

696
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:21.480
If you were being rational, you
would say it would make more sense

697
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.440
rather than trying to make three films
or trying to make one film that competes

698
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:29.679
in three areas. It's quite good, it's quite scary, it's got some

699
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:34.559
films. It makes more sense based
on this data alone, to compress all

700
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.440
of your resources and that includes time
and money and passion and whatever into one

701
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:45.239
thing. You know, do one
thing incredibly well. And because of the

702
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:49.880
power law and the sort of nature
that if you go from being the second

703
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:53.039
most the third most popular to the
second most popular will mean so much more

704
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.599
for you than going from fourth to
fifth, from from fifth to fourth,

705
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:02.519
that it would argue it's better to
make something that's extremely one thing. And

706
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:07.079
you see this, I mean that
we're recording this before Christmas, and you

707
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:12.000
look at how many Hallmark Christmas shows
there are. They're good or well made

708
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:14.920
or enjoyable. I'm sure one or
two are, but what they are is

709
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:20.039
feel good Christmas like. They are
absolutely that. There there's a formula and

710
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:27.559
again the comfortability factor for a specific
demographic of people. That's why those films

711
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:34.320
generally have a Mario Lopez or or
a Dean Kane or a face that people

712
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:37.599
feel comfortable with because they remember them
from you know, they're just comfortable.

713
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.880
They've watched their films or watched their
TV shows over the years, and they'll

714
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:43.920
watch it because it's like, oh, you know what, I want to

715
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:46.920
feel good. I want to feel
good Christmas. Ee, and oh great,

716
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:52.280
this is a new movie. We'll
be right back after a word from

717
00:49:52.280 --> 00:50:00.599
our sponsor, and now back to
the show. And there you go,

718
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.039
and all of us like I knew
that. I know that Mario Lopez Christmas

719
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:09.719
movie exploded on Hallmark apparently because people
love Mario Lopez because you know it's later.

720
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:16.199
But and here's here's this thought that
we I haven't heard expressed very much.

721
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.960
I'm sure it's not a brand new
thought. But in the last ten

722
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.639
years of being an independent filmmaker and
working with independent filmmakers and chatting to them,

723
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:25.360
I've heard people talk about, oh
my god, do we have to

724
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:30.480
hire people actors who've got a bigger
social media following or whatever people A people

725
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:36.280
have often complained, do they have
to way up talent and appropriness for the

726
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:39.199
role on the one and fame on
the other. What I haven't heard many

727
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:43.639
people talk about, but I would
argue is perhaps the battle that we're going

728
00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:47.840
for in the next five years is
in familiarity, not fame, but how

729
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.800
comfortable are people with that person.
So it's like, you know, one

730
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:57.559
of the reasons that George Bush got
in over Goore is that people were happy

731
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.800
to have a drink with George Bush. It wasn't about politics to some for

732
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.320
some people. And I know this
because I know some people that vote for

733
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:06.159
him who actually I think their politics
are slightly strange, and they were like,

734
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:07.559
yeah, I just don't like algor
I'm going to have a drink with

735
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:13.480
Bush. And so when you think
about actors, it's not so much their

736
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:15.679
fame, although obviously that's not a
bad thing, and it's not so much

737
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:20.519
their talent. Although do you feel
comfortable do you think your audience would go

738
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.360
yeah, okay without thinking about it, you know, And that's why you

739
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:29.239
look at actors like, I mean, almost every one of Adam Sanders movies

740
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:32.239
as a comedy, to the point
to which people have been watching uncut gems

741
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:36.880
and been appalled, whereas there are
other actors who you just don't know what

742
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.760
their movie is going to be because
they play such a wide spectrum of ca

743
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:45.199
Yeah. Yeah, Tom Hanks is
Tom Hanks, Like he'll play everything.

744
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:46.719
You know, He's definitely that Adams. Yeah, it's his brand, but

745
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:51.440
that's fine. But you also feel
comfortable within Tom Hanks, or with Meryl

746
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:53.599
Street. Mill Street plays everything.
She's going to be in a musical this

747
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:59.519
month on Netflix, but yet you
know she she also was on HBO Max

748
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:04.559
doing another film with Steven Starderberg,
and you know she she does everything,

749
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.480
but that's her brain, and you
feel comfortable. I studied this a while

750
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:12.519
ago. I studied on my blog
like how broad the act the roles the

751
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.480
actors had played across genres, and
I found Adam Sandler was the most siloed.

752
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:20.280
Most of his films have been in
one genre. And the actor I

753
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.239
only looked at sort of a couple
of hundred really big actors, but the

754
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.639
actor I saw that who had the
broadest as in like, who had the

755
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:31.360
least siloed in one genre was Ron
Perlman. Yeah, you know, and

756
00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:36.119
you take there's no one genre that
accounts for more than a third of the

757
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:39.480
roles he's done. So he's done
some comedy, but he hasn't done mostly

758
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.920
comedy. He's done some kids stuff, he's done some horror, he's done

759
00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:45.880
some fantasy. And so Ron Perlman
as an example here, who I think

760
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:49.840
is a terrific actor and seems like
a good bloke, he is a perhaps

761
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:53.679
a metric slightly less attractive to hire
because he doesn't have that whatever we're going

762
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:59.159
to call it, comfortability effect,
whereas someone like Adam Sandler, who I

763
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:02.480
wouldn't obviously Ron Perlman take on Ron
Perlman take on some certain drama roles over

764
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:06.960
Adam Sander, but Adam Sander would
be a more comfortable watch for more people.

765
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:09.800
So I don't know what we'll do
with that. It's it's it's very

766
00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:14.800
interesting the way this whole, this
whole thing is. But I'm really I'm

767
00:53:14.840 --> 00:53:20.599
really happy that you're doing what you've
done um with with vo D clickstream H

768
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:24.360
and I'm I'm just impressed, like
I always am with everything you do.

769
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:28.880
Man, You're insane for what you
do, and I know that you're going

770
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:34.280
to be digging through that data and
continuing the league grow and build out more

771
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.079
of a data. Yeah, you
just started to go through that, and

772
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:40.119
that's a good It's it's not exactly
what's going on, but man, it's

773
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:44.760
it's more than we had before.
And it's definitely a direction to aim at.

774
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.400
It might not be pinpoint, but
man, it's better than you know,

775
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:52.039
like, hey, I'm gonna go
throw a football into a stadium,

776
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:53.960
I have no idea where it's gonna
Now, at least you'll get it on

777
00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:58.039
the field, and maybe you could
even get it within a few yards,

778
00:53:58.280 --> 00:54:00.559
you know, maybe, And that's
the goal. And also, you know,

779
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:04.880
filmmakers should use all of these data
points and all of these things they

780
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.199
hear and then they know themselves and
they talk, they hear on your podcast

781
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:10.519
interviews. All of these are things
you need to weigh up yourself and weigh

782
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.679
them against everything else. No one
person or one system can tell you what

783
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.239
to do. And I'm just glad
that we have at least one set of

784
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:22.880
signals about SPOT that doesn't come from
the PR Department platform. Well, and

785
00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:27.800
I appreciate you are fighting the good
fights are and getting this information to the

786
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:30.719
filmmakers. Where where can people go
and get this infilm? So it's at

787
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:35.079
via d clickstream dot com. It's
entirely free. You if you want to

788
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:37.000
read more than the beginning of the
articles, you need to sign up,

789
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:38.840
but it's free. But that's the
reason we put that barrier in is that

790
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:43.199
we have got forums that anyone can
join, and we wanted to make sure

791
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:45.440
that there was there was some effort
you had to put in, and that

792
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:52.519
effort is signing up and accepting your
email just and what that means is that

793
00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:57.480
we have forums where people can post
suggestions because we're still working out what to

794
00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.000
do with all of this data,
you know, some of it. We

795
00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:01.480
have plenty of ideas and we're churning
away at them, but then there's some

796
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:06.119
deeper things that we don't know what
to look at. Yeah, and the

797
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:08.960
best suggestions for the research I've done
over the years have come from audiences.

798
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:12.920
Like it. If I was to
think of the sort of most exciting things

799
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:16.199
I've studied, they almost all of
them come from audience suggestions. So that's

800
00:55:16.280 --> 00:55:20.159
what we're looking to have is like, what have you always wanted to nerve

801
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:22.280
about squad? I can't give you
an immediate answer, and I might not

802
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.920
be able to answer at all,
but maybe probably I'm the best shot most

803
00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:30.199
people have, and I'd be delighted
to follow those threads and suggestions that we've

804
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:34.239
had from people. Well, man, I appreciate everything you do, Stephen.

805
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:36.960
Thank you so much. We have
to we have to come back on

806
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:43.199
the show and talk about our twelve
unconventionable Christmas movies and do another episode next

807
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:47.119
year, but I appreciate everything you
do. Brother, thanks again for coming

808
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:53.760
on and sharing very valuable knowledge with
the Tribe. And so thanks again thanks

809
00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:58.280
for inviting me. It's always a
pleasure to be here. I want to

810
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:02.559
thank Stephen for coming on this show
and dropping the knowledge data bombs on the

811
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Tribe today. Thank you so much, Stephen. If you want to get

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links to anything we spoke about in
this episode, including how to check out

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00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:15.239
the free service vod clickstream, head
over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting

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dot tv for it Slash two eighty
seven, Thank you so much for listening

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to guys. As always, keep
on writing no matter what. I'll talk

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00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:29.000
to you soon. Thanks for listening
to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting

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dot tv.