WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:09.119 Welcome to Idemics Performance and Wellness, where world leading coaches and scientists explain how 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:16.719 their research can help you achieve your personal and professional goals. Foster hi It's 3 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:21.359 Sanjayanti, co founder and CEO of Idemics Coaching. Coaching has played an important 4 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.440 role in my life. It's helped me through my journey to become a powerful 5 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:29.519 leader, mother and wife. IDMX coaches help you increase your self awareness, 6 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.359 improve your problem solving skills, and evolve your habits to achieve your goals, 7 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.920 all things I'm grateful to have learned and done through my own coaching journey. 8 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:41.640 Our easy one minute assessment matches you with an Idemics coach that best fits your 9 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:46.359 needs and values. Each Idemics coach is vetted and experienced. It helps clients 10 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.799 mad and achieve their wellness, professional and business goals. If you or someone 11 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.200 you know could benefit from coaching, visit our website at www dotidemics dot com. 12 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.759 We also know that not everyone can invest in coaching right now, and 13 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.920 that's why we provide free coaching in our Coach Shorts episodes. If you think 14 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.359 someone you know would benefit from it, please share our podcast with them. 15 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.200 Thanks for listening and see you next time. Hello, and welcome to Coaching, 16 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:18.319 Performance and Wellness by IDEMS Coaching. Today, I'm excited to introduce you 17 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:23.640 to Mike Robbins, author, speaker, coach, and podcast host. Mike 18 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.840 regularly shares his insights with companies like Google, Wells, Fargo, and eBay 19 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:32.079 on accelerating talent performance, a topic that obviously lies at the heart of what 20 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:37.319 we do at Idemics. In this episode, we're excited to dive into three 21 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:44.200 of Mike's books and topics that deal with three areas we see lots of individuals 22 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:49.920 struggle with at some point in their personal and professional lives. Change, vulnerability, 23 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.200 and trust. Mike, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. 24 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.280 Sam. Nice to be here. So Mike tell us what made you 25 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:06.120 because HOMA coach and your focus on leadership and teams well. My story to 26 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:12.159 coaching and ultimately speaking and writing and now podcasting is kind of an interesting one 27 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.599 in that I started out as an athlete. I grew up here in the 28 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:19.960 San Francisco Bay area where I still live, and I was a baseball player 29 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.639 all growing up. I actually got drafted right out of high school by the 30 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.360 New York Yankees. Didn't end up signing a contract with the Yankees at that 31 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.039 time because I got an opportunity to play baseball in college at Stanford. Went 32 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:32.120 to Stanford, played baseball there, and then I got drafted out of Stanford 33 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.080 by the Kansas City Royals, and I did sign a pro contract at that 34 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:38.680 point, and you have to go into the minor leagues even when you get 35 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.919 drafted by a major league team and sign a contract, So I try to 36 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.639 work my way through the minor league system. Unfortunately, Sam I got injured. 37 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.120 I was a pitcher and I tore ligaments in my elbow and I was 38 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.120 twenty three when I got hurt and had a series of surgeries and then was 39 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.840 forced to retire at the age of twenty five. And I was, you 40 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.800 know, really bummed as you could imagine. But one of the rushing right 41 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.919 when you set your sights on a goal that's so right that you've worked so 42 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.240 hard towards. And you know, I started at seven years old playing t 43 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.400 ball and you know, single mom, we didn't have any money growing up 44 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.319 in Oakland. I figured this was my shot to you know, be someone 45 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:22.120 to make it, and it doesn't happen. So I'm devastated personally, but 46 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:24.919 one of the things, well a couple of things that I had found fascinating 47 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.840 as an athlete, particularly by the time I got to college and was playing 48 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.159 professionally. On the individual level, what I noticed was it wasn't always the 49 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:37.560 most talented people that were the most successful, and it wasn't always the most 50 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.159 successful people that seemed the happiest and the most fulfilled. So I was curious 51 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:46.560 about that. And then on the team level, I noticed it wasn't always 52 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.120 the teams that I was on that had the best players that were necessarily the 53 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.360 best teams. Like, talent was clearly important, but I was on some 54 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.479 teams with really good talent, but we would underperform because I don't know, 55 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.439 the coach was weird, or the egos were off, or something didn't work. 56 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:02.439 And then I was on other teams where it was like the talent was 57 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:06.719 decent, but the team was fantastic. We like made each other better, 58 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.439 we wanted to win together, we rooted for each other, and so I 59 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.439 thought these things were just sports related. I get my first job in the 60 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:17.800 late nineties. I come home, I'm sort of licking my wounds personally figuring 61 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:19.680 out who the heck am I what am I going to do? I get 62 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:24.879 a job working for an internet company in nineteen ninety eight in San Francisco, 63 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.040 basically every days. Yeah yeah, it was dot com boom time, and 64 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.600 I'm like, I'm a fish out of water, right, I'm this twenty 65 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.600 five year old kid, who's you know? I went to Stanford. I 66 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.759 It wasn't like I wasn't intelligent, but I'd never really thought of anything professionally 67 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:43.399 besides baseball. But now I'm selling internet advertising and I'm like, you know, 68 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:47.079 and really interested in my own personal growth and development, also going down 69 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.759 the path of trying to kind of heal from my whole experience and figure out 70 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:56.439 what am I going to do next? And the world of coaching was kind 71 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.720 of new at that time in the late nineties, Like people there was you 72 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:01.240 know, I'm taking workshops and I'm meeting people on there. I'm a life 73 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:03.439 coach. What the heck is that? I'm a business coach? What's that? 74 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:08.959 And so I was benefiting from coaching and reading a lot of books on 75 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.199 personal development and taking a lot of workshops. And the more I did that, 76 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.519 the more I was like, I think I want to do that, 77 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:17.639 Like like I would I would go to the workshop and I would pull the 78 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.199 workshop leader aside and I'd be like, how did you get to do this? 79 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.680 Like how do you get that job? You know? Or I would 80 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.480 I would read the book and be like this person's really interesting. How did 81 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.120 they get qualified to write this book? Like what does that take? So 82 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:35.639 that started me on the just curiosity path of like what would it take for 83 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:40.319 me to do that? And then the universe intervened, as often happens. 84 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.439 I get a job in two thousand working for another, you know, a 85 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.000 startup and we're all going to get rich because it's going to go public, 86 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.800 and then the dot com bubble burst and I lose my job and I'm like, 87 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:54.519 oh God, what am I going to do now? But I had 88 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.120 just met my wife, Michelle's we've been together for a little over twenty three 89 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.399 years now, and she had started her own business. She had a staff 90 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:08.600 and company, and she was also interested in coaching, and she and I 91 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.519 decided to get some training at the Coach's Training Institute and she really encouraged me, 92 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.399 like, hey, you have a passion for speaking and for coaching and 93 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:20.360 write, like you should do this. And I was like, Okay, 94 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.920 I'm twenty six, about to turn twenty seven, Like, I have no 95 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:28.399 idea how to make any money doing this. But influencer wasn't a job at 96 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:30.600 the time. No, it wasn't a thing. There was. Yeah, 97 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.360 there was no social media, there were no blogs, there were no podcasts. 98 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.560 You had to like write a book or write articles or I don't know, 99 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.839 somehow become you know, or starting to get coaching clients. Anyway, 100 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:43.600 that's how I started. In the year two thousand and one. I decided 101 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.279 people were like, go back to college, or go back get an advanced 102 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.680 degree in psychology or in you know, organizational development. And the thing is, 103 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:54.160 I love to learn, sam but I hated school even though I did 104 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.680 decently well, I just didn't like the structure give and me both. Yeah. 105 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.120 So here's what I decided. This was my whole plan was like I 106 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.120 decided I was going to design my own curriculum is what I called it, 107 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.839 and I was going to spend that first year. And I figured I it 108 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.079 might be lean, which it was. I figured I might go in debt, 109 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:12.600 which I actually did. But if I went to school, I was 110 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:15.759 going to go into debt anyway, which other and at the end of it, 111 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.639 I knew I wouldn't have a degree, but I figured aout the end 112 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:19.959 of the year. If I couldn't get any coaching clients, or I couldn't 113 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:23.800 figure out how to speak and actually get into anyone to pay me, or 114 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:27.600 I couldn't write anything that anybody would actually publish or read, then I should 115 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.839 probably go find a job. And you know, that first year was pretty 116 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.639 lean, but ultimately what I was able to do and what my real passion 117 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:40.720 was speaking is I started speaking and a bunch of more traditional companies, the 118 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.079 Kaisers and Wells, Fargo's and Chevrons of the world that are based here in 119 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.839 the Bay Area, they had a bunch of gen xers like me who had 120 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:51.079 gotten laid off from their dot coms, and they were having some cultural issues 121 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:55.720 at the time of baby boomers and gen xers trying to work together. And 122 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:00.319 I started coming in to talk about teamwork and culture from my perspective as gen 123 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.680 xer but someone who'd played baseball and been in some diverse environments. And then 124 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:09.240 I started to develop some material around how do we find common ground and how 125 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:11.800 do we work well together? And that's really what kind of started my coaching 126 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.800 and my speaking business. Twenty three years ago and all these years later, 127 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:18.160 you know, I've had a chance to write five books and work with a 128 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:22.800 lot of amazing companies all over the world. But you know, and I've 129 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:24.560 learned a lot in the last twenty three years, for sure, But the 130 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:30.079 foundation of a lot of my work sort of started in my early life and 131 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:31.960 from what I learned as an athlete and what I kind of started off doing 132 00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:35.600 all those years ago. Yeah, and you gave yourself the runway, right, 133 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.639 like a limited runway, where you gave yourself a year to sort of 134 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:45.440 explore this, knowing it would be hard, but you also took the risk 135 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:50.600 and went into something that wasn't such a well developed profession the way it is 136 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.919 today. We're coaching now as a much more developed profession, right for sure. 137 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:56.480 And I say to people all the time, I mean, I'm sure 138 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:58.519 people listening. There's lots of different folks listening for different reasons. But the 139 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.919 thing about getting into coaching or speaking or writing or podcasting or influencing in whatever 140 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.279 way, is like, there's so many more opportunities to do it now, 141 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:11.960 which is awesome. It's also very crowded and it's harder to stand out so 142 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:15.120 in those days it was tricky because it was like there were very few points 143 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.879 of entry and I was really young and naive starting, which again, in 144 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.519 hindsight, was a blessing because if I had been a bit older and had 145 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:24.960 a family and kids and a mortgage and the whole thing, like, I 146 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.639 don't know if I would have done it, would to take the risk, 147 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.200 Yeah, yeah, I would have, you know. And at the same 148 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.240 time, there are a lot of opportunities today for people, you know, 149 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:37.000 a company like yours, for people to come in. I was looking for, 150 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.120 actually what I wanted to get hired by was like a small boutique consulting 151 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.960 company or coaching company where I could be mentored and sort of be an apprentice, 152 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:46.919 if you will, and they had some clients. But I couldn't find 153 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.879 that, and I started my business when the economy was down, the dot 154 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.960 com bubble had burst, and it actually ended up being a blessing in disguise. 155 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.039 But it was actually pretty hard, to be honest, I'm sure, 156 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.279 yeah that at all. I think getting anything off the ground, you know, 157 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.559 partly because of the uncertainty, partly because you're so resource and time constrained, 158 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.399 and the pressure to get it right while you're having to basically do everything 159 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.399 on your own, is you know, certainly not to Minimus. So Mike, 160 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:22.200 you've had a ton of experience doing this. Now you're sort of twenty 161 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:28.679 five to thirty years in here. What are some of the most common challenges 162 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:35.639 that you observe in leadership development and what are the topics that you specifically like 163 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.720 to tackle and work on through your coaching. Oh wow, I look, 164 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:45.080 I mean, I actually think the last couple of years have been super challenging 165 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.200 for all of us for a whole bunch of reasons. And look, even 166 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:54.720 pre pandemic, most leaders that I'm working with, even super senior leaders all 167 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.120 the way down to kind of you know, new managers inside of some of 168 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.799 the big companies that we work with. You know, just the struggle around 169 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:05.120 how do I show up, how do I manage my time? What do 170 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.039 I focus on? What's most important? It's kind of like the balance between 171 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:16.960 you know, skills and results and then developing emotional intelligence and you know, 172 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:22.440 human and sort of people capacity. I think that's ratcheted up to a whole 173 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.120 other level over the last few years because so much of what leaders are dealing 174 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.080 with, whether again you're working in a very small company, you know, 175 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.000 a nonprofit, a government agency, or a big, huge fortune five hundred 176 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:39.320 company that the people issues, the human issues that we're all grappling with, 177 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:45.200 you know, conversations around mental health, conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion, 178 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.200 conversations around well being. You know, again, not that these things 179 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.879 didn't exist a decade ago, but like the way that they exist now, 180 00:11:52.480 --> 00:12:00.639 there's so much being put upon leaders. It's hard, and so mentions of 181 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.600 the problems have really amplified right totally. And I also think one of the 182 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.440 things I was at a conference. I spoke at the Work Human Conference in 183 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.480 San Diego earlier this year, and Esther Perel was one of the other speakers, 184 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:13.360 and she said something really simple but profound to me. She was talking 185 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:18.360 about sort of American culture, Western culture, and basically saying that over the 186 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.399 last number of generations, for a whole bunch of reasons that we could go 187 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.879 deeper into, but like things like institutions like the church, say, or 188 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.240 like spiritual institutions that many societies were sort of based around, doesn't really exist 189 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:37.120 in our modern society for a and therefore work has become everything for everyone that 190 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.120 your workplace is supposed to be meaningful and you're supposed to be passionate about it, 191 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.960 and your manager turns into your therapist and spiritual advisor and all these things. 192 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:48.480 And she was talking to all these HR professionals and basically saying that, 193 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.799 like, your job has gotten way harder in the last couple generations because the 194 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.799 expectation now that's put upon you. And again, I think in some ways 195 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.759 there's a blessing to that that people like me and you can do what we 196 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.639 do and bring a more holistic approach into work. That's really important. But 197 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.480 the dark side of it is there's so much pressure in the system and there's 198 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.120 so much put upon leaders and everybody that I think most people I know and 199 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:18.960 work with, even the really effective, successful leaders, are struggling with just 200 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:22.320 the amount that's expected of them. No, I totally agree with that. 201 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:33.000 I think the lack of institutions, the kind of dimensionalities that have really shifted 202 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.519 in terms of the problems individuals are dealing with, and then those consequently come 203 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:43.519 into the workplace are just so many more And in many ways, the role 204 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:54.840 of a leader is equal parts coach, psychologists and sort of professional skills leader, 205 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.559 right, And I think it's those first two that are relatively new in 206 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:05.200 a work case context. There's certainly not skills that are developed in those earlier 207 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:11.279 rungs of professional development because they're kind of not necessary then, and they're absolutely 208 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:16.919 essential the minute you begin to lead a small or a large team. Well, 209 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.360 and you know, I know we want to talk a bit about change, 210 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.960 but you think about how much change there's been over the last couple decades. 211 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.080 I just think of my own life and my own career, right, 212 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:30.720 I'm about to turn fifty in a couple months. I started doing this at 213 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.919 twenty six and in the last twenty three twenty four years, just my own 214 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.240 work. Like the topic that I started to speak about initially and then I 215 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:45.519 still talk a lot about this foundational work is appreciation. And I remember twenty 216 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.639 five years ago, as I'm starting this, people saying to me, appreciation. 217 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.039 First of all, what is that? Why is that important? Why 218 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.879 would you talk about that at work? Who cares? No one will pay 219 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:56.919 you for that, you know, And I would show up in my suit 220 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.519 and tie to these events, and I'm trying to make the case for like 221 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.360 why appreciation is important? And half the rooms if not more of the rooms 222 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.360 I was in, people look at me sideways, like what are you talking 223 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:09.440 about? Right? You know, fast forward to today, and it's like, 224 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.279 you know, recognition and appreciation and engagement and all these things. I 225 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.759 mean, we're talking about millions and billions of dollars that is put forth by 226 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.240 companies to make sure that people feel valued and appreciated so they don't lead. 227 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.200 So you know, all this stuff, and it's amazing to me because I 228 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.080 look at that and just think about, oh my gosh, like the ground 229 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:33.879 beneath my feet personally has shifted so much in the time that I've been doing 230 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.440 this, and I'm not inside of an organization managing you know, a big 231 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.600 p and l and lots of people necessarily. So again, for anybody, 232 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.320 whether someone's twenty five years old or sixty five years old, you know, 233 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.240 again, the younger someone is, the less they've had to deal with the 234 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.639 massive amount of change. But that's another thing that I do notice is that 235 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.440 people who've been around a bit, while they have a lot of wisdom and 236 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.399 a lot of experience, which is beautiful, it's been a massive amount of 237 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.279 change for anybody who's and older that's still work in these days when the rate 238 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.480 of change is sped up right right, Yeah, yeah, it's and it's 239 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.720 important I think to just understand acknowledge that. And me I think sometimes too, 240 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.799 even when you think about the pandemic and kind of where we are in 241 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:18.080 the cycle, it's like, thank goodness, the pandemics behind us. And 242 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.799 I don't think we any of us have fully comprehended what we've just been through 243 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.399 and what we're still navigating through because we can't, like we have to keep 244 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.600 going. We can't just stop and contemble. And that was crazy and what 245 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:34.600 you know, but there's been so much change in the system, and again 246 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.720 not just in places like Silicon Valley where I do a lot of work, 247 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:41.240 but just in everyday business, like how we do work, how we show 248 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.159 up to work, even you and I having this conversation on Zoom and people 249 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.720 listening to this podcast. Again, it's so ubiquitous to how we operate now. 250 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.480 But like, this wasn't happening ten years ago. No, it wasn't 251 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.559 even happening five years ago, right, And again we just kind of keep 252 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.519 rolling with it because we sort of have to, and we focus a lot. 253 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:03.440 We got to pivot, you got to be resilient, you got to 254 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680 adjust, you got all those things are true, but they do take a 255 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.759 toll. And sometimes, like I'll look at a post or a photo or 256 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:12.599 something from ten years ago, or my wife and I reflect on something, 257 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:18.880 we'll be like, geez, it's really different today than it was. You 258 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:22.359 know. That so true? You know, Facebook memory from twenty ten or 259 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.359 whatever. Totally true. What's a perfect segue into I want to talk a 260 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.720 little bit about your book, Mike, Nothing changes until you do, which 261 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:37.039 is a very apt title, and in it you note that most of us 262 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:45.039 really struggle with our relationships with ourselves. Yeah, even the most successful people, 263 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.039 leaders, at the tops of organizations, celebrities, whoever it may be. 264 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:55.160 And that struggle has sort of birthed, in my view, and epidemic 265 00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:03.400 of you know, pretty pithy but superficials right about how to help oneself and 266 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:08.400 how to diminish self criticism and self doubt. And at the same time, 267 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:15.160 we really continue, at an individual and societal level to perceive our own value 268 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:22.480 as very directly connected to our jobs, our finances, our appearance, our 269 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:30.440 children, you know, And why is it that changing ourselves is perhaps the 270 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.920 most difficult thing and how do you coach people in the first instance, become 271 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.400 aware of what they need to change, and then actually to make that change. 272 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.960 Look, it's I mean, it's a great question. It's a hard 273 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.079 one because I think I know for me, and I think this is true 274 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.160 for just about every other human that I work with. You know, we're 275 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.400 all different and unique, and we have our different backgrounds and personalities and ways 276 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:57.759 we enter the world. But like, the relationship that we have with ourselves 277 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:04.480 is probably the most important human relationship that we have. We get almost no 278 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:10.519 training on how to manage our relationship with ourselves, and it's not even really 279 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.960 a thing that gets talked about that much because it's either either completely ignored or 280 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.799 if we do start to talk about it, it seems somehow selfish or self 281 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.240 absorbed, or like, what are you talking about? But I think back 282 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:27.200 as an athlete, it's like how I felt about myself, the level of 283 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:32.400 confidence or lack thereof that I had in myself had everything to do with how 284 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.400 well I was able to perform on the field personally and for my team. 285 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.359 I think about this in you know, twenty plus years of being with my 286 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:44.200 wife, Like when I feel bad about myself, I'm not as good of 287 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.559 a husband, right, right, It's like she can tell me how much 288 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:48.839 she loves me and how wonderful I am. But if I'm feeling bad about 289 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.400 myself, I'm going to see the world the way I see myself. And 290 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.799 so again, the first part I think is for us to kind of reconcile 291 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:02.880 at some level. How do we focus on ourselves and take care of ourselves 292 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:08.640 and manage ourselves and work our relationship with ourselves and not think that there's something 293 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.759 wrong with that or weird about it? And look, you can be self 294 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.960 absorbed and completely obsessed with yourself in a way that's detrimental to you and everyone 295 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.440 around you. So that's a thing. But then once we get past even 296 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.519 though, okay, I understand that it's important for me to have a healthy 297 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.359 relationship with myself, then the question is how the heck do I do that? 298 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.640 What does that even mean? What does that look like? You know? 299 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.359 And again, sometimes when I'm coaching someone, we'll talk about, you 300 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.759 know, kind of getting a little bit into their self talk, like what 301 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:41.640 do you say to yourself about yourself? And most of us, even relatively 302 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:47.400 successful people, our self talk is not that positive it's not that empowering. 303 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:48.880 Like and I will say to other people and this is true for me, 304 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.160 Like, if you talked to someone else the way you talk to yourself, 305 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:59.279 how do you think they would feel about you? Yeah, and you know, 306 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:00.680 for the most part, it's like an eh. There's a story that 307 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.200 I often share about this from many years ago and Michelle, my wife, 308 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.359 when I first met. Actually it was in the early days of me starting 309 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:08.759 my business and all that, Like it was hard and I was scared. 310 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.640 I and I just had this about six months into dating Michelle, about the 311 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:17.160 same amount of time of starting my business, and I felt so bad about 312 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.200 myself and was so defeated and I don't what am I doing and I'm an 313 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.119 idiot and I should never started this and I need to go get a job 314 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.599 and this is the stupid right. And I was on the phone with her, 315 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:26.839 just telling and she says to me, after I rant for three or 316 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.960 four minutes about myself, Okay, my, you know, first of all, 317 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.759 thank you for being real. I appreciate you sharing how you're feeling. 318 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:40.319 I totally get it. But then she said, I have something really important 319 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:41.480 to say to you. And I said, what's that? She said stop 320 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:47.240 talking about my boyfriend like that, and I was like, what she said, 321 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:48.720 You just said some really mean things about yourself. And look, I 322 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.599 know you're struggling, and I know you're being vulnerable with me, But if 323 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.160 someone else said those things about you, I would be pissed and I would 324 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.599 defend you, and I would basically tell them to knock it off. I 325 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.400 love you and I believe in you, and just because you're you doesn't give 326 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:07.720 you the right to talk about yourself like that. And I remember being on 327 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.799 the phone that day, Sam. In the first I was thinking, Man, 328 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:12.680 I like this woman. She is awesome. But I was like, 329 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:15.640 it never had occurred to me. Oh, when I'm mean to myself, 330 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.880 when I'm disrespectful to myself, when I talk negatively about myself, even in 331 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.240 my own head. Yeah, of course it's detrimental to me at some level. 332 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.039 I know that it's actually disrespectful to my wife, to our daughters, 333 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.279 to everybody who knows me and actually loves me and cares about me. And 334 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.160 so I will often say to people like again, if for no other reason, 335 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:34.319 if it's hard to just do it for yourself, do it for the 336 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:38.200 people that you love. Yeah, And Again, it's tricky, right, 337 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.599 and I'm not trying to say this in some holier than that way, Like 338 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.160 I have my moments every day where I'll think something or say something negative about 339 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.599 myself. Of course I do, I'm human. But I think the more 340 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.599 we can bring that into the light and the truth is that, the better 341 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:57.640 and the stronger that we feel about ourselves authentically, not like I'm the greatest. 342 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.119 I'm not talking about ego or arrogance. That actually then allows us to 343 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.640 be kind, to be loving, to be present, to be engaged with 344 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:11.480 other people in a genuine way, And the more diminished that is within ourselves, 345 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.519 the more diminished it is with everybody else. So again, leaders, 346 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.359 like again, it's the cliche of all cliches, but it's like you got 347 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.880 to put your own oxygen mask on first. We all know that, we 348 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.880 all say that, and most humans I know, most leaders I know struggle 349 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.359 with that. Yeah, I mean, it really is. It's self awareness, 350 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:33.440 right, and it brings to mind. Actually, a really close friend 351 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.279 of mine said this to me. Someone had said this to her in a 352 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.240 very different context, but this statement has really stuck with me, which is 353 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:48.920 we tend to judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. Yeah, 354 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.680 and I think if we apply the same lens of judging ourselves by our 355 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:59.880 actions, our actions in fact change our level of self awareness shifts yep, 356 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:06.640 and we become healthier, more productive human beings ultimately totally. And then the 357 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:07.839 other side of that, I love that saying too, because the other side 358 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.480 of that, the whole assume positive intent. If you then are judging other 359 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.319 people, not that we're giving them a pass if they do things that we 360 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.920 don't like, but just assuming, I bet that wasn't malicious. I bet 361 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.599 they weren't trying to do what, you know, because again, most people, 362 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:25.759 most of the time, in my experience, their intentions are good. 363 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.000 The actions the execution isn't always great. Yeah, you know, I was 364 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:33.000 just listening to a podcast interview this morning with doctor Becky whose name my last 365 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:36.319 name I can't remember. She's a parenting expert. She was on with Deck 366 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:37.119 Shepherd, but she was talking about, you know, she wrote this book 367 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:41.000 called Good Inside, and the basic premise, right, she talks about it 368 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.839 in the parenting context that our kids and us were good inside and sometimes we 369 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.559 do bad things. Right, our kids, whether they're three years old, 370 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.920 or we've got teenagers at my house seventeen and fifteen, so like they're really 371 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.960 good humans and sometimes they do things that drive us crazy. Right, And 372 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.119 so it's like same thing with employees. It's like you have an employee that 373 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.519 they do something, or someone who works with you, a coworker. But 374 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.359 it's like, can we come from that place of assuming positive intent about ourselves 375 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.000 about others and then yeah, we have to have some hard conversations with people 376 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:11.400 or give feedback or talk about things or let someone know that didn't work or 377 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.039 that wasn't what we wanted, But it doesn't have to be from that deeply 378 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.319 kind of shame based place that we're bad or wrong. And I think the 379 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:23.000 place that we do that the worst sam is with ourselves. Yeah you know 380 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:27.319 what I mean. And in some ways it's like one of the blessings of 381 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.000 my life actually was that I played baseball all those years, because baseball, 382 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:33.799 even if you're listening and you don't care about baseball or don't know much about 383 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:38.519 baseball, there is a ton of failure in baseball. Like even when you're 384 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.440 really good, you fail all the time. Even when the team's really good, 385 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.440 you lose a lot well, This is why team sports are so important, 386 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.640 right, Like, there is a reason that when you talk to a 387 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:56.519 lot of older generation managers or executives, the in fact look for people who 388 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:02.960 have played a team sport, right because the learning that from having to work 389 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.640 with a group of people to get everyone pulling in the same direction, to 390 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.960 get everyone to show up with their best foot forward each time, and the 391 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.880 self awareness that builds from that is massive, totally. And I think all 392 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.920 my years of playing sports, and I say, the reason why I'm grateful 393 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.519 for baseball is like the losing, the failing. I never liked to lose 394 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.319 and fail. I still don't like to lose and fail, but I've lost 395 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.200 and I've failed a lot. Yeah, And what you learn when you fail, 396 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.880 as painful as it can be, is like you're not a bad person 397 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:37.599 because you failed. It just didn't work or you didn't execute or whatever. 398 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.039 I mean, sometimes it's luck, it's crazy. I mean, it's all 399 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.480 kinds of things. And then you have to realize, like winning is fun 400 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.559 usually, losing is not as fun usually, but it's all kind of part 401 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.960 of this cyclical process. And I think we live in this world now today. 402 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.359 I get concerned sometimes because it's like everybody gets a trophy, right, 403 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:57.839 we don't want the kids to feel bad. So you can take the test 404 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:02.480 seven times until you get an A and it's like, Okay, I think 405 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.880 I understand where that impulse comes from because a few generations ago, like we 406 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:08.599 shamed people and said you're dumb and you're no good and you sit over there, 407 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.480 which wasn't healthy either. But you and I were talking before we hit 408 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:15.839 record on the podcast. Sometimes like we swing the pendul in the other way 409 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.759 and we swing it too far. And one of the ways that I talk 410 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.359 about this with leaders is understanding the difference between recognition and appreciation. Recognition is 411 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.839 about performance, about outcome, so you want to recognize people when they deserve 412 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.359 it, so they have to meet or exceed the standard. Appreciation is about 413 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.519 valuing people and caring about people, something that we can do all the time 414 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.400 and is actually essential. So you appreciate people all the time, you recognize 415 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.440 people when they deserve it. So it's not an either or. It's like, 416 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:44.640 oh, I can value and care about everyone all the time, and 417 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.279 that's an essential thing to do, especially in the crazy stressful world we live 418 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:51.480 in today. But I'm only going to recognize people when they actually deserve it, 419 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:52.920 because if I say good job or way to go all the time, 420 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.960 and there's no difference between great and good and mediocre and poor, that's actually 421 00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:03.359 detrimental to everybody's development and performance. Yeah. Absolutely, I'm glad you brought 422 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:08.920 up appreciation because in a way, the flip side of never perceiving ourselves is 423 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:15.839 enough is gratitude, right, Yeah, and also the subject of many supericialophorisms. 424 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.200 But yes, I have my own theory about this, but I'm really 425 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:29.400 curious to hear yours on why it is that we struggle to appreciate the positive 426 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:33.400 aspects of our life and instead we're constantly focused on the negative, the thing 427 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.559 we don't have right right. I mean, look, some of it I 428 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.880 believe is biological and some of it is cultural. So the biological part of 429 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.039 it is, like you and I and everybody listening, we all have a 430 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.160 negativity bias in our nervous system for survival. Yeah. So even if you 431 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.720 consider yourself an extreme optimist, our nervous system is designed in a way to 432 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.960 store negative memories in our amignalist so we don't have those things happen again, 433 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.039 which is great. It's like otherwise we'd get hit by cars and fall downstairs 434 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.640 and burn our hands on stoves all the time because we wouldn't remember, Oh 435 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:08.000 that's a bad thing. Oh that's a dangerous thing. And we walk into 436 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:14.200 a room and we immediately look for threats. Most of this is unconscious, 437 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.680 right, but we look for threats. And again, depending on our age 438 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.079 and our race, and our gender, and our background and where we came 439 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.000 from and our traumas and all the things, like some of us are even 440 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.400 more heightened to the potential threats. All of that is to keep us safe, 441 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.720 quote unquote and for survival. So we have to go against our biological 442 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:36.240 wiring in a lot of cases to even look for and find the good things. 443 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:38.880 And then culturally what happens. And again, you think about the world 444 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.440 that we live in. You live in New York City, I live in 445 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:45.480 San Francisco. We're all on social media and everyone listening to this podcast. 446 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.119 Part of the reason you're listening is like, you want to be successful. 447 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.599 You want to be effective, whether you're a manager or a leader, you 448 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.000 have your own business, you're an employee early in your career, trying to 449 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.200 move along whatever it is. We are looking out at the world and seeing 450 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.920 all these things, especially now because we can scroll on Instagram and everything else 451 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:07.039 that everybody else seems to have, and it points to things we don't have 452 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:12.119 or that we may want, and so therefore there becomes this sort of obsession 453 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:19.759 as a culture with more and better or different. And again there's a healthy 454 00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.680 part of wanting that ambition or then wanting something new, wanting something different, 455 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:29.200 wanting something more, but there's also a real dark side to it. And 456 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:32.599 for the most part, like we're not really trained on how to have relationships 457 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:37.480 with ourselves, We're not really trained on ways to have healthy desire and healthy 458 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.839 ambition. It's kind of an either or all or nothing kind of dynamic. 459 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.880 And look, I've struggled with it a lot of my life. I mean, 460 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.039 I'm a three on the Enneagram, which also means I'm an achiever performer 461 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:52.920 personality type, which you know, we were with some friends over Thanksgiving and 462 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.319 our good friend as a therapist and studies the anagram, she's also a three, 463 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:00.000 and she was saying American culture, Western culture is like a toxic thing 464 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:06.480 culturally that we're obsessed with performance, appearance, you know, outcome, and 465 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:08.920 we think that that, and look, everyone listening has had this experience in 466 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.440 either a small or significant way. We go for some goal, whatever the 467 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.519 heck it is. I'm going to graduate from COG. We lawed and applaud 468 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:21.039 the extremes. Right, we do when someone says, I remember listening to 469 00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.920 an listening to an interview with some entrepreneur at some point, tech tech guy, 470 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:30.039 and and he talked about how to increase his productivity. He listens to 471 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:37.079 podcasts at three times the normal speed, and I just kind of want I 472 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.720 don't even understand that, you know, right, It's just and somehow like 473 00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.880 the journalist sort of you know, goes, oh, that's amazing, I've 474 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:47.599 got to try that, and it's like, no, you don't actually, 475 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:55.119 because it's sort of absurd. And you know, rather than approaching a goal 476 00:31:55.400 --> 00:32:00.640 or something that we want and desire through a lens of what's the learning and 477 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:07.480 development path that can get me there potentially, rather than just sort of the 478 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.400 envy and the negativity of why don't I have this right? Right, is 479 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.240 a much more productive way to go. But as you said, we're not 480 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:19.200 taught that in a way because particularly in the US, and it is really 481 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:25.039 different, I think from Europe in this regard, Yes, we are taught 482 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:32.799 to our cultural value system only rewards success, right, right, It does 483 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:38.079 not recognize kind of anything other than that totally, And it's always about the 484 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.960 result, not the journey totally. And you know, I'm glad you brought 485 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.920 that up because I think it's something I know I've struggled with. It's been 486 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:47.960 a big part of my work for all these years. But at some level, 487 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.119 right, And I'm thinking about this too in the context, like again, 488 00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:54.160 we have two teenagers in our house. Our older daughter is literally in 489 00:32:54.200 --> 00:33:00.640 the other room right now, finishing up college applications all the U sees here 490 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.680 out in California, the college. They're due on the thirtieth of November, 491 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.079 right, So this is a big thing. And as the more I've been 492 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.039 paying attention to this and supporting her, the more I'm like, oh my 493 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:12.759 god, this whole system is so screwed up, Like there's such a different 494 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:14.640 way. I don't know, I don't have the answer to how it could 495 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:17.359 be different, But there's so much pressure on these kids, and it's so 496 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.319 much harder to get into college these days, and degrees are less valuable than 497 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.920 ever, and it's more expensive than ever to go to college. But I'm 498 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:31.440 like watching myself and my cohort of fellow parents at this age and stage. 499 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:35.640 And on the one hand, what I say to my daughter and I mean 500 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:37.079 this in my heart. Listen, honey, we don't care where you go 501 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.759 to college, like we love you. We want you to be somewhere that 502 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.599 you feel good about, that you're proud of, and that where you can 503 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:49.640 thrive personally, emotionally, socially, academically, all of that. And at 504 00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:52.279 the end of the day, when I see someone post my kid got into 505 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:53.720 Yale, right, there's a part of me that's like, well, damn 506 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:55.720 good for you, you know what I mean. Like, because we live 507 00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.039 in the world where it's like that's like one of the ultimate things that we 508 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.160 start out in the world. Here in America and in the Western world, 509 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.760 it's like, where do you go to college? Seems to matter a lot. 510 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:14.039 And I then sometimes struggle with this notion of like, Okay, does 511 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:15.280 it really matter and why does it matter? And why do I care? 512 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.039 And why do we all care? And yeah, in the scheme of things, 513 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.199 you put that on your resume and it's going to differentiate you from someone 514 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.159 else. But what are we talking about. Like when I was in college, 515 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.840 I remember this one of my first realizations. I got to Stanford, 516 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:30.440 which is this great school, and I was super proud of being there. 517 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:36.159 But even back in the early to mid nineties when I was there, everyone 518 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.000 was asking each other what are you up to or what are you doing or 519 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.079 what classes are you taking? And I was a kid my junior year in 520 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:47.320 college got suicidally depressed and it come from a family with a lot of mental 521 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:52.079 health issues, and was like, no one's asking me how I'm doing. 522 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.559 And it wasn't their fault that I was depressed, but I was like, 523 00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:00.159 we're not even talking about And I appreciate that. In today's world, whether 524 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.519 it's young people or those of us who are not so young anymore, we 525 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:05.559 talk more about mental health. But at the end of the day, to 526 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.400 your point, we're still back to We're obsessed with outcomes and results and success, 527 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.679 and we don't even often ask people how they feel about the success or 528 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:17.119 what was the journey to get there. It's all about the story and ultimately 529 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:22.079 the achievement. But every single one of us has had an experience where we 530 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.559 achieved something that we thought was going to be the thing that was going to 531 00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:29.039 make us feel good about ourselves, and not only did it not, in 532 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.199 a weird way, it made us feel worse because it's like, oh damn, 533 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:36.000 that wasn't the thing. That's why all the way circling back to our 534 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.719 relationship with ourselves, when I'm coaching someone and I ask them, what's the 535 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:42.639 goal, what's the thing you want to achieve that you think would be like 536 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.159 the beyond the beyond, right, and they tell me the thing, whatever 537 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:49.599 it is. I start this company and we grow it and it goes public, 538 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.119 or I write this book or whatever the heck it is. It's like, 539 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.719 Okay, I fall in love with this person and we build this amazing 540 00:35:54.760 --> 00:36:00.320 family. And Okay, if you had that, how do you think you 541 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.760 would feel in general? And how would you feel about yourself? Yeah? 542 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.159 Okay, I would feel accomplished. I would feel grateful, I would feel 543 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:10.000 proud of myself. I would feel whatever, you know, awesome. And 544 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.679 again, I know it sounds almost too corny, but it's like, okay, 545 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.800 but why aren't we feeling that right now? Because that's just something that 546 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:21.599 we can access. Yeah, like you could have a million, it's a 547 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:25.679 it's a you're on a path, and you can't be unhappy at every point 548 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.039 on that path other than when you get to the end of it. Right, 549 00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:34.280 Like, it's just a very stressful way to live your life totally and 550 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.960 at some level again without getting too you know, we're all headed to the 551 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.400 same place ultimately. I heard someone say this years ago and it really resonated 552 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.440 with me. They were talking about life, and they were like, look, 553 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.679 we all know the destination of this thing. We're gonna die. We 554 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:50.679 don't know when, we don't know how. But it's like we're all on 555 00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:53.960 a train, and that train everyone's on the train, and everyone gets off 556 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.679 at a different point, but the end point is the same for everyone. 557 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:00.159 And what he was saying was like the weather changes outside of the train all 558 00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:05.719 the time. Sometimes it's sunny and it's beautiful, sometimes it's like a blizzard, 559 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.320 and it's everywhere in between. And he said he was saying this, 560 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:13.239 and I just found it so inspiring, Like I've decided that I'm going to 561 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:15.679 Yes, I'm interested in where I'm going and where I'm headed, and those 562 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:19.920 things matter to me, but I want to get better at learning how to 563 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.320 appreciate the weather as it changes. Because it's always changing, right, And 564 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:27.719 just because it's sunny doesn't mean it's going to be sunny the whole time. 565 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:30.760 Like sometimes it's going to be stormy, and sometimes it's going to be overcast. 566 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.880 And and for me, again a three and achiever type and someone who's 567 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.159 coaching lots of people and leaders and teams who are trying to accomplish great things, 568 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:42.039 it's like, oh my gosh, that's so important. And how do 569 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.119 we not in a cliche kind of corny thing that we post on Instagram, 570 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.320 but in a real way that we actually live, Like how do we remember 571 00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:53.400 that when like things are hard, or we get scared, or I don't 572 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:58.320 know, a global pandemic happens, or you know, we lose our job 573 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.519 or someone close to us passes away or whatever. Because those are the things 574 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.000 where it's like, you know, another cliche, but so many cliches are 575 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.000 cliches because they're true. It's like, circumstances don't define us, they reveal 576 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:12.880 us absolutely. Our inspections. Yeah, really hard. It's like I would 577 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:17.159 define us totally. Yeah. So I want to quote to our reader something 578 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:22.039 that you've written in the past, which I thought was very well expressed about 579 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:28.280 vulnerability. All too often we relate to vulnerability, especially in certain environments, 580 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:34.000 relationships, and situations, as something we should avoid at all costs. However, 581 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:38.760 it's vulnerability that liberates us from our erroneous and insatiable obsession with trying to 582 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.519 do everything right. Yeah, give us an example of how you've seen this 583 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:49.199 manifest with a leader and how you've coached them to accept and express their vulnerability. 584 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.960 You know, the one that just popped in my head is not one 585 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.280 hundred percent answering your question, but I think it's related. I was I 586 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:59.199 was delivering a workshop at Google. This was about ten twelve years ago, 587 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:06.360 and you know, mid level managers, and the workshop was on building authentic 588 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.920 relationships and embracing vulnerability. And this woman raised her hand in the group and 589 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:14.239 she said, you know, something just hit me that I don't think i'd 590 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:17.320 ever quite connected the dots. She said, there's another woman who works here 591 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:21.000 at Google who I grew up with. We went to high school together, 592 00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:22.480 and we weren't super close, but we knew each other, and we come 593 00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.199 from the same town and we're the exact same age. We went off to 594 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.079 different colleges, we've had different careers, but we're both here. She is 595 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:35.679 now way farther along in her career than I am, just in the matrix 596 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.960 of the company, right. And she said, And as I'm reflecting on 597 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.840 this whole notion of vulnerability, what I realize I've always admired about her is 598 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:45.639 that she seemed to not I don't know if she didn't care, or she 599 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:49.360 just had more courage or whatever, but she would raise her hand and put 600 00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.639 herself out there and just go for it. Oh yeah, And she said, 601 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.840 I think that's probably why she's been so much more successful than I've been, 602 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.280 if I'm really being honest about it, you know. And I appreciated 603 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:04.519 the openness of her saying that. And then we all as a group, 604 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.840 we're kind of having a discussion about that. That again, vulnerability is scary, 605 00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.320 it's hard, it's uncomfortable. Right, What does Brene Brown says? 606 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:20.000 It's risk, emotional exposure and uncertainty. And if we can lean into those 607 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.719 things, if we can embrace those things, if we can move towards those 608 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.440 things, not against the not away from those things, even though they're scary 609 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.000 and uncomfortable, and you know what, we might lose, we might fail, 610 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.480 we might fall flat on our face. We might ask the person you 611 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:36.000 know for the job and they say no, or for the sale and they 612 00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:40.440 say no, or for the date and they say no or whatever. But 613 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.639 again it's like again another cliche, but it's like the answers always know if 614 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.599 you don't ask, right, and the difference between the person who's willing to 615 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.519 ask and the person who's not willing to ask, and I'm both of those 616 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.119 people, depending on the mood and the situation. Quite frankly, if I 617 00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.119 ask, I might get the thing. If I raised my hand and I 618 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:05.920 stepped forward, it might happen. But if I don't because I'm scared, 619 00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:08.559 it's a default no. Yeah, yeah, it's you know. And again 620 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:13.679 and I don't say this in some way like this isn't about like just suck 621 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:16.280 it up and like no, it's like no fear to me, that's ridiculous. 622 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.599 And again, what I wish I would have known all those years ago. 623 00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.800 Sam as an athlete, Like I was really good at baseball and I 624 00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:27.800 would get really really nervous and I thought something was wrong with me. I 625 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.119 thought that was like just weird or weak or insecure or bad like something like 626 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:35.519 that was my internal dialogue was like, you're not very good and you don't 627 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:39.039 have enough confidence, and and I'm looking around everybody else and they all seemed 628 00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:42.880 way more confident than I felt. I did not know at the time, 629 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.480 and I wish I did. They were all feeling some version of the same 630 00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:50.119 thing toooil. Yeah right, I mean again, Look, some people are 631 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.159 genuinely more confident than other people. Some situations were genuinely more comfortable than others. 632 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:58.360 But in general, we compare our insides to other people's outsides and they 633 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.880 don't match, and then we think I'm crazy or I'm flawfush. Yeah, 634 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.039 But in reality, like everybody is feeling that, And a big part of 635 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.079 my work is not to be weird about it or force people to share stuff 636 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:14.280 they don't want to share, but to try to take some of that inner 637 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:20.440 dialogue and put it out so that A it's not just roaming around in our 638 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:22.280 head and making us crazy, and B when you say it out loud, 639 00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:27.840 what you find is that other people are like, oh, you feel like 640 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.159 that. I feel like that, And all of a sudden, like the 641 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.760 big secret is now out on the table. That like, everybody's feeling some 642 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:37.559 version of their own insecurity or doubt or fear, and if we can talk 643 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.960 a little bit about it, we don't have to spend so much time and 644 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:44.800 energy hiding it. And what I find when I work with teams and we 645 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.119 can do that, or when I work with leaders and they can express some 646 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.239 of that, even to me, it's like, okay, putting it out 647 00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:53.079 on the table. Now, what are we going to do now? If 648 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:58.719 we're not wasting all that time and energy performing for each other and actually connecting 649 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:01.280 with each other, now we can do some great things. Yeah. Absolutely, 650 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:06.039 it brings to mind. You know Lisa Demore. I read a bunch 651 00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:10.800 of her books as the Mother of Teenagers, and particularly two teenager Girls, 652 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:17.440 and she talks about this idea of you know, so many adults, when 653 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.960 young adults come to them and say they're nervous or anxious or stressed about something, 654 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.800 the reaction is, don't be anxious or don't be nervous, don't be 655 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:36.679 stressed, And in fact, that seeks to obviate what they're feeling and sends 656 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:42.400 this message of oh, you mustn't feel that somehow, when really what we 657 00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:47.159 should be saying to them is it's reasonable that you're feeling this way. Let's 658 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.599 talk a little bit about why you're feeling this and what you might do to 659 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:58.000 address that totally and to normalize it. And you know, it's interesting you 660 00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:00.840 say that. So our older daughter, Samantha was with me a couple months 661 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.079 ago. I had a speaking engagement in Las Vegas and she wanted to come, 662 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.480 which was kind of a big deal. You know, Dad is mostly 663 00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.039 cringey to both girls these days. But she wanted to come, and she 664 00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:14.719 was interested. And I mean we were going to go do some fun things 665 00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:16.400 in Vegas, which interesting place to take your seventeen year old daughter. But 666 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:21.599 she came to my speaking engagement and she wanted to come. I mean she's 667 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.000 seen me speak a bunch when she was little, but the last few years 668 00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:28.440 not so much. And I purposefully said to her and I wasn't. I 669 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.519 meant it, and I felt it, but I wanted her to know. 670 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:32.199 Right before I went up on stage, I leaned over and I said to 671 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:37.519 her, Samantha, I'm so glad you're here, and I'm feeling really nervous. 672 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:38.719 And she looked at me kind of funny, and she's like why, 673 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.639 And I was like, well, two reasons. First of all, I'm 674 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.960 speaking to a group of dentists, and I don't usually talk to dentists, 675 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.719 so I'm a little nervous, like I don't know what exactly how this is 676 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:51.440 going to resonate. This is a different audience than I'm used to speaking. 677 00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:53.159 It was a dental conference i'd gotten invited to, and I said, and 678 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:59.280 secondly, you're here, and you know, I'm just like, I'm aware 679 00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.000 of you being here. So I'm just feeling nervous and I'm wanting to do 680 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:05.000 well and I'm wanting not to screw up, right, And she looks at 681 00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.679 me kind of surprised, like, dad, what, and then she immediately 682 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:09.320 goes in it was very sweet, dad, So you're gonna do great, 683 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.639 and she starts to like kind of coach me and sort of pump me up. 684 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.159 But the reason why I did it, though, is I wanted her 685 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:16.400 because she was gonna see me get up on stage. And look, I've 686 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:20.440 been speaking for twenty plus years. I'm pretty good at it. When you 687 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:22.199 see me on stage, it does not look like I'm nervous at all. 688 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.880 It looks like I'm totally comfortable and I'm telling jokes and I'm going get right. 689 00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:30.440 I wanted her to know this is actually what's genuinely happening inside right now. 690 00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:35.519 And I'm gonna go up there and you're gonna watch me do this thing, 691 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:37.960 and there's no way for you to be able to feel what I'm feeling. 692 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:40.960 But I wanted to normalize to her that, like, even at fifty 693 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.280 years old, like I still get nervous and it's okay, it doesn't freak 694 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:46.280 me out, and I'm I go do it anyway, and you know what 695 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.840 I mean, Like totally, I think we don't do enough of that as 696 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.480 leaders, as parents, as human beings to say to each other like, 697 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.119 yeah, I'm kind of worried about this thing or nervous. Yeah, and 698 00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:59.800 I'm gonna go do it anyway. And I might still do a great job, 699 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.360 but like I still have some doubt or some fear or some insecurity or 700 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:07.639 whatever. That to your point, it's not a bad thing. In fact, 701 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.440 what we know about emotions is like we can't selectively mute emotions. So 702 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:13.519 if we say I'm not going to feel scared, I'm not going to feel 703 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:16.559 angry, I'm not going to feel jealous or whatever emotion, we don't like 704 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:20.800 what that does is it mutes all the other ones we want to feel. 705 00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.920 That mutes the gratitude and the joy and the love and the excitement. So 706 00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:29.000 it's like my work also focuses a lot on can we again bring our whole 707 00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:31.199 selves to work? Can we be vulnerable enough to be real? You know, 708 00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:36.679 one of the most the most vulnerable emotions in life is joy. Yeah, 709 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:42.599 because it's love is appreciational, right yeah, Right? If I tell 710 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.760 you that I love you, if I express my joy and how happy I 711 00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:47.880 am about something, it could go away. And you know what, in 712 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:52.480 life, it will because emotions ebb and flow and the thing that we're so 713 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:54.480 joyful about. Right, You fall in love, you get married, it's 714 00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:57.840 wonderful, and then it's not so much, and then you get your heart 715 00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.239 broken and your marriage ends, and it's like, well, what am I 716 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.679 going to do? Never love anyone else again because it didn't work out, 717 00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:08.960 you know. Never try to go for the promotion because I got fired from 718 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:12.760 the job. Never try to start the company because the last time I tried 719 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.320 it didn't work again. Those are real experiences in life that we have to 720 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:22.400 work through. But like that is part of what ultimately success and fulfillment is 721 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:27.199 about. Is like failing picking ourselves up, learning from it, licking our 722 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.679 wounds and going I'm going to try again, and trusting in that process. 723 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.679 Right, And it's super vulnerable, right, because it's like I've already you 724 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.599 know. I think about this sometimes in my own life, and I realize 725 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.360 there are some things that like I have failed that so much that sometimes I 726 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.559 don't want to try again, and I have to reckon with that, like 727 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:49.480 well what is that about? Yeah? And then oh, can I pick 728 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:52.039 myself up and go for it? And sometimes even in life, when we've 729 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.119 lived a bit and we've had some wisdom and experience, we also have some 730 00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:58.960 trauma and some disappointment and some frustration in there, and we start to say 731 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:00.719 to ourselves consciously, well I can't do that, well, I don't do 732 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:02.840 that. Well I tried that before and it didn't work. And it's like, 733 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:10.000 yeah, okay, so true. So I want to bring us to 734 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:16.079 our last topic. Trust. Yes. So culture is a word that we 735 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:24.239 hear over and over and over, and a lot of the research on trusted 736 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:30.960 organizations really sort of focuses on two ideas, right. One is how important 737 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:40.599 trust is in shaping individuals' perceptions of fairness and justice within an organization. And 738 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:49.519 then the second is that trust isn't just about anticipating others' behaviors, but it's 739 00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:55.440 also about the perception of sort of morality within the organization. We're living in 740 00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:01.719 a time when, as we were saying earlier, trust and institutions it feels 741 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:07.440 like has never been lower, right with the collapse of organized religion, with 742 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:14.000 media, what it is, social media, et cetera. Tell us if 743 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:19.599 and why you feel trust is at a low and how do you work to 744 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:24.440 build trust in for individuals, in teams and then ultimately in their organizations. 745 00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:29.440 Well, there's a lot there. I mean, I look at trust on 746 00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.679 three different levels. There's inner personal trust. So like again, let's say 747 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:36.559 you and I work together, or we're friends, or we're in a family 748 00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:38.960 together. Do we trust each other? And that process, as we all 749 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:42.639 know, is tricky. Trust can be built, it can be broken, 750 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:45.599 but it really is a one to one phenomenon. It has a lot to 751 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.440 do with, by the way, our willingness to be real with each other, 752 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:51.719 our willingness to be vulnerable with each other, our willingness to take ownership 753 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:57.400 to repair when something gets broken. And again, we don't get a lot 754 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.719 of training and trust, And it's a really tricky thing. Everyone says trust 755 00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:04.280 is fundamental to relationships, it's fundamental to teams. It's all leadership. We 756 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.159 all know that. But it's like, so there's that, Then there's group 757 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:09.360 trust, like team trust, which another way to think of that, we 758 00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:14.760 talk about psychological safety. Psychological safety means what the group, the team is 759 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:20.000 safe enough for what risk taking, speaking up, challenging one another, you 760 00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.119 know, debating in a healthy, productive way, taking risks, failing. 761 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:27.119 Not that we want to, but we know any of those things can happen 762 00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:30.280 within a team. And I'm not going to be shamed, ridiculed, kicked 763 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:32.199 out of the group simply because I made a mistake or I had a different 764 00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:39.039 opinion. Then there's more organizational trust, and that one to what you're speaking 765 00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:42.719 to. That one's tricky because it's like, well, how do I trust 766 00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:47.400 the company or the institution. You know, I'm employee X over here and 767 00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:52.039 the company has thirty thousand employees. Like what I often will say when I'm 768 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.639 talking to the CEO or the senior leaders and they're wanting we want there to 769 00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:59.239 be more trust in the organization, I would say, we got to go 770 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.360 down to first, interpersonal one on one trust and group trust, team trust, 771 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:07.480 because that's how people actually interact with their world, like their experience there. 772 00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:12.079 You know, most people's experience of the company they work for is the 773 00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:15.079 experience they have with the manager that they report to and the teammates that they 774 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:21.360 have. So if we do really develop and work on and focus on interpersonal 775 00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:25.039 trust and group trust psychological safety, that can have an impact. However, 776 00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:30.760 the institutions as a whole, to your point, there's a lot of things 777 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:35.960 happening in our society these days, government institutions, corporate institutions. It's not 778 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.800 that people weren't skeptical or even cynical about them, you know, five years 779 00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.000 ago, ten years ago, but there does seem to be a really heightened 780 00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:47.239 sense of a lack of trust in institutions. And some of that I think 781 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:54.119 is warranted and justified because you know, companies and government organizations and others like 782 00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:00.000 don't always do great things, and you know, it's hard when that happened, 783 00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:02.119 you know, in the nature of how work is. We were talking 784 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:07.159 about this earlier, but again, a couple of generations ago, you went 785 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:08.880 to school, you got a job, and you worked for the company for 786 00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:13.400 fourty years and then you retired. Yeah, that's not the way it works 787 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.280 anymore. Well, and it wasn't an individual's success was in a zero sum 788 00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:21.519 game, right. I think increasingly there's this sense in our society. And 789 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.639 it was interesting in a conversation Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell we're having, they 790 00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:31.400 were talking about how this idea of success being more zero sum, you know, 791 00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:36.079 isn't that recent. It sort of began in the in the seventies and 792 00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:44.320 eighties really, right, And you know, with a societal value increasingly that 793 00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:50.239 one success implies the failure of someone else, Right, That just creates a 794 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:55.960 lot of insecurity and negativity and a lack of trust in those institutions. Where 795 00:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.840 As you said, you know, for many of our parents, Parrence generation, 796 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:06.000 they had won maybe two jobs, right, and that was their life, 797 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:09.719 right, And the expectation wasn't that I'm going to go here and leverage 798 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.360 that, and go there and leverage that and then get in early here and 799 00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:15.639 it was going to go public and we're all going to get rich or whatever 800 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:21.559 that I mean Again, it's a different paradigm. Like one of our clients 801 00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:24.639 is Lawrence Livermore, National Lab out here in California where I live, and 802 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:28.440 people that work at the lab, and I've been partnering with them for about 803 00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:30.719 ten years. I mean people work there for thirty forty years. I was 804 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:34.840 on a Zoom call with a senior leader there who's been there and saw yesterday, 805 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.360 and I was asking, how, remind me how long have you been 806 00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:37.760 at the lab? And she said only five and a half years. And 807 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:40.920 I said, you know what's amazing, And I said, if you were 808 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:45.280 in Silicon Valley five and a half years, in most you're like an old 809 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:50.440 timer. You've been around forever. Right, And again, it's all relative. 810 00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:52.840 And again I'm not necessarily arguing that one's better than the other. It's 811 00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:58.280 just a different paradigm. And so in terms of trusting the institution, and 812 00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:02.840 again I'm an optimist, but I don't think that people have as much stake 813 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:07.119 in the institution anymore. And again, think of COVID and hybrid working and 814 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:09.639 virtual working. Let's just say I got a job working at Company X in 815 00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:15.199 late twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, and I'm working from home and I 816 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:19.239 interact with everybody on Zoom and like I've literally I mean maybe I've been into 817 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:21.920 the office a couple times. I don't even know people. I don't even 818 00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:28.719 have any physical connection to the place, So again it's tricky. But I 819 00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.840 mean, even if you're the CEO or you're the chairman of chairperson of the 820 00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:38.519 board, there's only so much you can do that's going to inspire trust in 821 00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:45.480 the people inside the organization or institution to trust it. And the more you 822 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:50.840 can do to make good decisions and be transparent with things sort of organizationally, 823 00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:52.639 the better. But at the end of the day, it is going to 824 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.800 come down to the individuals and their individual relationships with each other, one on 825 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.039 one trust and that psychological safety of the time, like that's where you can 826 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:07.199 really move the needle the most from a cultural standpoint. Wonderful, Mike, 827 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:09.840 Thank you so much. We'll pause there. I have a feeling we're going 828 00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:14.159 to need to have another conversation about a whole list of topics we did not 829 00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:16.039 cover today. Yes, I probably should have warned you upfront that I'm not 830 00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:20.800 short, short winded, so we will do that. We will do that 831 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:22.920 another time. Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me, 832 00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:30.760 Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us a review. 833 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:37.039 Find your ideal coach at www dot viidmix dot com. Special thanks to 834 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.079 our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.