WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:09.199 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing Being Frank. We're 2 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:15.599 the only way to be is Frank hellrd one and welcome to Being Frank. 3 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.879 We're the only way to be Is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lebono. 4 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:25.199 We'd like to thank you for joining us here on the Intelligent Conversation podcast. 5 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:29.199 We know that your time is valuable and competition is feres Let's face it, 6 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:33.159 lots of podcasts out there, but we'd like to think of ourselves as 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:37.799 an alternative to all that noise, So we really appreciate you sharing some of 8 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:41.920 your day with Being Frank. You know, we stream from Hudson River Radio 9 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.479 dot com. That's kind of our home base where the mailman, mister Neil 10 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:51.759 Richter as our engineer. He always delivers. Remember you can download us wherever 11 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:58.799 and whenever you listen to your favorite podcasts that includes iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple, 12 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.600 Spreaker, and others. You can find the links on our Being Frank 13 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.159 Facebook page. Please think about becoming a subscriber and leaving us a comment too. 14 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:11.599 As I mentioned, we'd have our own Facebook page. Being Frank will 15 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:17.280 surprise surprise, it's public, so check it out and follow the page for 16 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:23.280 more information about the podcast. We bring our audience a new topical program every 17 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:27.200 week, beginning on Fridays. Listen at your convenience, and every program is 18 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:33.359 archived, so you can listen to any Being Frank virtually anytime that you want, 19 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:37.840 anywhere you want. It's the intelligent thing to do. We are recording 20 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:44.439 this particular program on the twenty third of February. George Orwell said, if 21 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.920 liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they 22 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.480 do not want to hear. The very first Amendment of the Constitution solidifies this 23 00:01:53.640 --> 00:02:00.159 concept as one of the bedrock principles of American democracy. However, we have 24 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.319 always been conflicted between our desire for free speech in our need for privacy and 25 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:10.159 protection, especially in a world where technology changes at an ever increasing pace. 26 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.159 In fact, with the advent of the Internet and social media in nineteen ninety 27 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:21.840 six, Congress recognized that for users speech to thrive on the Internet, it 28 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:28.439 had to be protected and the services the powers use and powers up excuse me, 29 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:34.280 the power user's speech Pardner. That's why the US Congress passed a law 30 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:39.120 known as Section to thirty. It was originally part of the Communications Decency Act 31 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:46.599 that protects Americans freedom of expression online by protect the intermediaries we will rely on. 32 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:53.840 It states, no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be 33 00:02:53.960 --> 00:03:00.680 treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another emation content provider. 34 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:07.280 Section two thirty in bodies that principle that we should all be responsible for 35 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:12.919 our own actions and statements online, but generally not those of others. The 36 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:19.400 law prevents most civil suits against users or services that are based on what others 37 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:24.759 say. Of course, on the on surface, this seems reasonable, especially 38 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:30.360 among consenting adults, but what about others who might have the same power of 39 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:37.360 reason by children. Social media companies use algorithms designed to improve the user's experience 40 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:42.080 by giving them the content they believe that user might be most interested in. 41 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.159 That often includes violent, disturbing videos that are certainly not suitable for children or 42 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.759 encourage others to commit violence. It should be noted that most of these algorithms 43 00:03:53.800 --> 00:04:00.479 are also designed to create vast revenue sources for the companies, But these videos 44 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:03.719 can cause irreputable damage and even death to a young, impressionable mind like that 45 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:09.360 of a ten year old Pennsylvania girl who died accidentally after viewing a video on 46 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:15.639 social media and engaging in a blackout challenge encouraging people to hold their breath to 47 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.319 near unconsciousness. One of the cases currently being an argent in front of the 48 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:25.560 court has been filed by the family of Naomi Gonzalez, an American student killed 49 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:30.720 in a twenty fifteen Isis attack, claiming that how to videos and other violent 50 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.920 content scene on Google inspire the attackers. Google accounters by claiming that they are 51 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:45.160 protected by Section two thirty and still another case, Twitter versus Taminah. The 52 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:50.199 plaintiff claims that social media companies like Twitter can be sued under the Anti Terrorism 53 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:57.759 Act for aiding and abetting terrorist organization, even if it does not directly promote 54 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.959 violence. It's an awful lot to unpacked, but it's important stuff, guys. 55 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.319 It seems highly technical, but this involves how we get and give information 56 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:11.040 on a daily basis. So we need some help to unpack this. And 57 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:15.279 of course I'm going to go to my media guy. He's a renaissance man. 58 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:17.079 I like to tease him, but it's the truth. He's an author, 59 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.639 a musician, a blogger, and a professor. Of Media Studies in 60 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:28.120 my colleague at Fordham University, doctor Paul Levinson and a regular contributor to Being 61 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:31.120 Frank, thank you once again for joining us. Paul, I'm delighted to 62 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.959 be here, and yes, I am a renaissance man. I was born 63 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:42.000 in the year fifteen thirty and got into a time machine and somehow convinced the 64 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.120 folks at forty University to hire me. So if my accent sounds a little 65 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.399 strange, like a little bit of a bronx accent, it's because I've had 66 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.600 a work on it for years. You wouldn't understand me in my original language. 67 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:59.639 God knows what that was. Anyway, to get to the very important 68 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:02.560 series of issues, and they really are more than one issue there. That's 69 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.920 why I say series we we do need to go a little bit back in 70 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:11.759 history, not as far as the Renaissance, but at least as far as 71 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:19.240 nineteen thirty four when Congress passed a Communications Act and FDR signed it into law. 72 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:25.560 And to give that context radio, as most people know, although Marconi 73 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.279 showed it could be done, like in nineteen oh one, you can still 74 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:34.000 see some of the places where he did his experiments on Cape cod by the 75 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:40.920 way, but it wasn't until the nineteen twenties that radio became what we now 76 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:45.639 know it to be. That's when the networks were set up, the CBS 77 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:50.399 network, then the RCA network, which later became NBC. And there was 78 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:57.439 a problem initially in that stations were broadcasting so close to one another that people 79 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:02.560 couldn't hear them. There was no regulation of radio, so the radio stations 80 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:08.680 themselves said, hey, we need the federal government to do something about this. 81 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.120 At that time, Herbert Hoover, a Republican, was president. He 82 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.600 was president from nineteen twenty eight to nineteen thirty two, and he, as 83 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:24.439 a Republican, didn't like federal regulation and he commented at some point, this 84 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:29.319 is the first time I've ever heard of an industry calling on us to regulate 85 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.759 and Republicans taboot. I mean, wow, hell just froze over, that's 86 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:40.240 right. So it was a strange time. And whoever passed like a very 87 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.639 and the Congress under him passed like a very weak act. So it was 88 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.920 cool, something like the Federal Radio Act or something, which really didn't help 89 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:55.879 much. Fdos elected president, the Democrats controlled Congress. It's nineteen thirty four. 90 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:01.319 They passed this massive Communications Act. And I won't spend too much time 91 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.800 on this Act except to say one thing. It created the FCC, the 92 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:13.639 Federal Communications Commission. And although the language in the law says that although the 93 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:20.759 FCC will be responsible for giving licenses to stations that are broadcasting in the public 94 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:28.040 interest, they won't try to regulate the content of those stations, which is 95 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.240 actually a rather confusing thing than what does it mean? How can you judge 96 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:37.159 if they're broadcasting in the public interest? So the Act didn't go into that. 97 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:41.639 But in my view, that was an unconstitutional act. It should have 98 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:46.320 been struck down by the Supreme Court. There was a case that did eventually 99 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.120 get to the Supreme Court in the nineteen forties and one of the justices by 100 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.960 the name of Felix Frankfurter, always one of my favorite Supreme Court justice name 101 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.639 just for his name, Alan, but please continue, professor. Yeah, 102 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:11.279 So he actually led the Court into ratifying the fccn that Communications Act, so 103 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:15.360 that became the law. So the reason why I point to all that out 104 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:22.840 is that laws stayed the law decade after decade after decade until finally in the 105 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.639 nineteen nineties, a lot of people are saying, hey, you know, 106 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.039 this is a really new thing. This web business with the blogs had begun. 107 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.519 You can post things online. And just to be clear, nineteen ninety 108 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:41.879 six, that's still a good ten years before Twitter, YouTube, well before 109 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.480 TikTok, etc. And Instagram, So social media per se didn't even exist 110 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:52.320 to them, but the web did exist. And so this act was passed, 111 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:58.320 and just like the nineteen thirty four law, it was severely flawed. 112 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:03.039 In fact, it was a mess, I think in many ways. One 113 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:07.440 way, which has nothing to do with Section two thirty, was a part 114 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:15.559 of the act that basically would find anyone who posted something that had quote objectionable 115 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:22.759 unquote material which kids might inadvertently see the poster of that could be found guilty 116 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:28.759 of violating the law and be fined up to three hundred thousand dollars and be 117 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.840 threatenced up to three years in prison. So I thought that was a horrible 118 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.399 part of the law. I urged Bill Clinton not to sign it. Of 119 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.840 course, Bill Clinton probably never even saw that I urged him not to sign 120 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:43.559 it. If he had signed it, he would have still signed it. 121 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:46.960 If I had urged him not to sign it and he had read that he 122 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.120 would have signed it anyway, because he was trying to sell himself in nineteen 123 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:56.759 ninety six as a Democrat but who understood conservatives, so he signed it into 124 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:03.120 law. Sure enough, a guy in California was charged with posting something he 125 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.720 puts uping on his blog in which he cursed out Congress and the President, 126 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:15.960 and that was deemed by the Attorney General to be quote objectionable unquote, and 127 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.639 the case went through the courts, and the Supreme Court, in a rare 128 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:26.399 display of good judgment, struck down that part. And that part is what's 129 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:31.960 known mostly as the Communications Decency Act. In other words, the government trying 130 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:37.600 to insist that station's only broadcast decent material. And that was a good moment 131 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:43.080 for the Supreme Court. It's become popularized today by the so called section two 132 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:48.600 thirties. Is the one particular area within that law that has been brought to 133 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.519 light, which we will continue why it's important today, but please let me 134 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.360 mean to interrupt ahead. No, no, that's exactly right. And there 135 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.320 were many parts to that law, and among them is section two thirty The 136 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.200 only part of the law that was struck down was the part of the law 137 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:11.240 that said anybody who post objectionable material can be found guilty of a crime and 138 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.279 served three years in jail and pay three hundred thousand dollars. I don't know 139 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.720 about you. I don't want to spend three days in jail, let alone 140 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.759 three years. So terrible law. Yeah, so that only that part was 141 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.279 struck down, but section two thirty and all the rest of the law remained. 142 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:35.399 And section two thirty, which at the time I thought was fairly enlightened, 143 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:41.639 made the essential point, as you correctly said earlier, that the only 144 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:48.960 party who is responsible for posting something online which let's say might be libelous, 145 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.000 you know, it might defame someone, that might be a civil suit. 146 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:58.480 This wasn't so much about crime. It was really more about people suing other 147 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.399 people, as happens in commerce and communications. And what the law said is 148 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:11.840 the site on which this is posted is protected. They are not responsible for 149 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:18.080 the posting. The only entity who is responsible is the person or people who 150 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:28.000 posted that material. And many people, including me, think that that provision 151 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:37.039 is in many ways responsible for the incredible explosive growth of social media because anyone 152 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.279 could start a site they would be totally protected from civil suits. Not if 153 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:48.000 they're committing crimes. That's something else, completely different, but totally protected from 154 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.960 civil suits, which of course can bankrupt a company. And instead, if 155 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.159 somebody wanted to sue someone for a posting that defamed them or lied about them 156 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.399 or whatever, they would have to go after just the person who posted it, 157 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:09.600 not the site. And many people, including me, lauded that, 158 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:11.320 and the more I thought about it, I was glad, you know, 159 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:18.279 to see that happen. But and this gets again to you know what I've 160 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.159 said. I'm sure at least once before on your show, you know, 161 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:28.000 the the immortal words you know, usually attributed to the great economist John Maynard 162 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.240 Keynes. When the facts change, I changed my mind. What do you 163 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.840 do, sir? And you know, to some extent the facts have changed, 164 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.799 And this now brings us to these two cases at hand. The twenty 165 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.559 fifteen case, by the way, is a really interesting case for a variety 166 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:56.159 of reasons. The young woman who lost a life right she was an American. 167 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:01.799 Her parents are suing um You, which is owned by Google. So 168 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.279 that's why Google is often cited, and Alphabet is in turn the parent company 169 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.919 now of Google. But Google and YouTube are pretty much what we need to 170 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:18.720 know she was in Paris when ISIS launched one of its last terrorist attacks and 171 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:28.840 killed a lot of people, including Is Gonzalez. And what the lawsuit is 172 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:35.039 saying is that YouTube and the algorithm that it has. And for those who 173 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:41.039 might not know how these algorithms work, these are actually even old fashioned algorithms. 174 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.480 They are more sophisticated today. But even back in twenty fifteen, if 175 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:54.360 I watched a video on YouTube and I liked the video, YouTube would be 176 00:15:54.480 --> 00:16:00.480 aware of that. It keeps track of the number of likes, and YouTube 177 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:07.279 would make sure that I would see similar videos every time they came up on 178 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:15.000 the site. And so there's no doubt that people who were supporting ISIS. 179 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.679 And here's where the suit is like somewhat unclear. It's not clear where the 180 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:26.320 attackers got their money from. There were whether they were ISIS per se or 181 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:32.919 ISIS sympathizers. If they were Isis per se, the lawsuit is ridiculous because 182 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:38.559 ISIS didn't become ISIS because a video they saw an Internet on the Internet. 183 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:42.200 I hear you, yes, it makes great right, But if they were 184 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:48.120 people in Paris who became ISIS supporters, and they became ISIS supporters because they 185 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.759 saw a pro ISIS video and the side in those days was crawling with those 186 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.080 videos, and then in turn they were fed more and more and more videos. 187 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:02.360 Well that is ann watch a thing, to say the least, because 188 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:10.519 and in fact, in that case we're going from defamation or possible defamation to 189 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.359 mass murder, which is what ISIS was doing. Well, we don't even 190 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.480 have to go as far as isis. The kid in Buffalo said he by 191 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:26.720 watching videos he became indoctrinated into bigotry and racist hate. So it's again, 192 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.480 as you're saying, it's not simply just the ISIS ideology. They didn't happen 193 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.839 because of the internet, but they do use the internet to indoctrinate these people. 194 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.400 So we don't even have to go to Isis. It happens here. 195 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:44.039 That's right. And look, I mean as far as you know, Buffalo, 196 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:48.559 though, I always say when these issues are raised, and they can 197 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.799 be raised just about every day, certainly every week there's a new mass killing. 198 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.960 As much as I do want to see these videos regulated, we need 199 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.559 to be clear that the most direct way of stopping these mass killings is to 200 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:11.920 crack down on the pandemic of guns in our society. There's something like three 201 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:17.480 to four times now as many guns in American hands as there are Americans in 202 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.319 this country. So you don't have to go any further than that. That's 203 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:26.279 what Congress needs to do. That's what Republicans are constantly getting in the way 204 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.519 of. And that's what there's one group who's really happy about it. They 205 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.920 don't want to see people killed, but that doesn't stop them from selling as 206 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:41.240 many guns as they can. And these are the manufacturers of guns and the 207 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.160 manufacturers of boats. That's the perfect point to be made, I think Paul 208 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.599 two where you were sitting the Gonzales point of view, but then you have 209 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:53.319 the Google point of view. And let's face it, as you were saying, 210 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.319 this makes a lot of money as the gun lobby, it makes a 211 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:03.960 lot of money for gun manufact actors, an etc. These algorithms make a 212 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:08.519 lot of money for these companies. And and here's where the difficulty and debate 213 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:14.799 lawes between free enterprise, the ability and the need to make money. That's 214 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.480 what they're there for generally, But then again within the realm of the public 215 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:23.680 safety, etc. Something has got to give because also we have I don't 216 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.680 know what you want to call it esoteric, that's the correct word. But 217 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:36.519 this ideal of free speech in all cases, which you, as big of 218 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:41.799 a proponent of, you are in most virtually all cases, But there's that 219 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.960 caveat of virtually. So explain a little bit about how do you how do 220 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:51.319 they balance again the need they're to make money. They're a company, they're 221 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.000 a privately owned company, that's their job. But at the same time they 222 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.759 do have a public interest. How do we protect the public at the same 223 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.319 time. Is there a fair medium somewhere in there. Well, it's a 224 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.079 very tough thing to adjudicate and to even just decide, But for me, 225 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:18.160 the guiding principle is that life and the protection of life surmounts everything else, 226 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:26.039 including making money for sure, but even including freedom of expression, because you 227 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:32.240 know, you can't communicate very much when you shot dead someplace, and that 228 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.480 has to be stopped, and we have to do everything we can, I 229 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:42.200 think, to stop that. So although I started out a long time ago 230 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:48.680 as being happy when people would say, hey, Levinson's an absolutist about the 231 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:56.279 First Amendment, and I was, but now indeed I'm saying virtually everything should 232 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.440 be protected. But there are some things that shouldn't be protected. There are 233 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.839 some freedoms of communication that, although they are legitimate in most cases, they 234 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:15.720 cannot be protected where that freedom is jeopardizing human lives to the point where those 235 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:22.839 lives are lost. So although honestly, the last thing I want to see 236 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:29.920 is the federal government regulates social media because and this doesn't matter, by the 237 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:37.079 way, whether it's a Republican or a Democratic congress and president, because both, 238 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.920 in my view, ever since FDR who was a Democrat, have made 239 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:48.079 very bad decisions about how to regulate communications. Both Democrats and Republicans, in 240 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:53.920 my view in general, have been equal abusers of freedom of expression. For 241 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:59.519 example, Chuck Schumer, who's now sent Majority leader, back when he was 242 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.240 still s editor, was leading a charge a couple of decades ago to resurrect 243 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:08.559 the fairness doctrine, which, in case your listeners don't know, for a 244 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:18.240 while the law was interpreted as if you had me on this show saying that 245 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:23.559 I think gun manufacturers are doing a lot of damage. People are dying because 246 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:27.599 of them. Something must be done about them. If you were a broadcast 247 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.880 medium, not a podcast, you would be obligated under the fairness doctrine to 248 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:38.279 have somebody from the National Rifle Association explain and support the other point of view. 249 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:42.079 And you know, I always thought, no, the faraoh government shouldn't 250 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:48.400 be insisting no one appointed the federal government some kind of referee of communication. 251 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:53.160 I'll talk to whoever the hell I want to talk to you. Yes, 252 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.759 exactly right. So that's why I'm making this point. The Democrats haven't been 253 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.680 such great supporters of the First Amendment and freedom of speech and the press either. 254 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:08.920 But there are exceptions, I think, to how free communications can be, 255 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:15.680 and there are occasions when I do think we need the federal government to 256 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:22.359 step in and just on that case, you know which. Now Google is 257 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:23.880 saying, well, hey, what do you want from us? You know, 258 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:30.039 we didn't create these terrorists or whatever, But it certainly didn't help to 259 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.720 first of all, allow a video like that on its site in the first 260 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.480 place, and second of all, and even more egregiously, to basically serve 261 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:44.680 people up more videos like that because they've watched and liked that despicable video. 262 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:52.279 What they should be using their algorithms for they're much vaunted algorithms that Facebook talks 263 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:56.960 about, Twitter talks about YouTube is identifying the videos as soon as they're posted 264 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:03.200 and pulling them down so that nobody's anymore sees them in the first place, 265 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:08.519 And that would be a constructive thing for them to do. In all fairness. 266 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.359 By the way, to YouTube, they have been doing that. This 267 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:17.119 case goes back to twenty fifteen. I have to say this on behalf of 268 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.359 social media. I think that they're slowly but surely learning to do the right 269 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:33.079 thing and to in effect censor themselves and not disseminate these dangerous videos, dangerous 270 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.119 posts of any kind, not only not disseminate them, take them offline as 271 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:41.799 soon as they had discovered. Well, you know, in my research, 272 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.920 one of the things that I found interesting about the so called Section two thirty 273 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.359 is the spirit of it was also to prevent frivolous lawsuits. Okay, which 274 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.000 this is certainly not frivolous. We're talking about people dying here. But it 275 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.720 kind of begs a little bit to the story that we talked about with the 276 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.720 young gallon in Pennsylvania, the ten year old who unfortunately died in one of 277 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:11.759 these ridiculous TikTok challenges or whatever. And they don't even know exactly what social 278 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:17.440 platform she saw this thing on, but again not to trivialize the death of 279 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.400 a young gallon. As I said, these are minds that are very impressionable, 280 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:26.400 and parents can be actively involved in their kids surfing and computers, etc. 281 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.960 But as you well know, it's twenty four seven. With young people, 282 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.920 you can't be there all the time. So at what point does personal 283 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.559 responsibility? And they said, that's kind of an extreme example. Most logical 284 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.400 people are not going to swallow tie pods, are not going to strangle themselves 285 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:51.200 to near unconsciousness, but yet it still happens. Is could that be considered 286 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.440 under the term frivolous where they're saying, hey, look, you gotta take 287 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:59.599 some responsibility. It's stupid to eat a tied pod. No matter what aige 288 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:04.400 you all are. How can we how can we be reheld responsible for behavior 289 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.160 like that? That's the other side of the coin your thoughts. Actually, 290 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:15.799 in some ways I am even more sympathetic to that suit than the earlier suit, 291 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:21.839 although the earlier suit the YouTube suit. I think the suit has married 292 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:30.759 also. But if a site allows children that young to come on the site 293 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.519 and use it and ask, it's impossible to stop them. No matter how 294 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:41.200 vigilant parents are. They could be over a friend's house the site. In 295 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:44.640 this case, Twitter can't have it both ways. You know, I would 296 00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:49.039 agree if someone twenty five years old did something that stupid, although even there 297 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:55.200 I don't see what merit what possible good, not that good has to come 298 00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:00.200 from everything, but all that can happen with these idiotic stunts like you know, 299 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.119 will black you out, you know, if I choke you out and 300 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.359 you will be unconscious or barely conscious for a minute or two. I don't 301 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.039 get, you know, why that should be on there in the first place, 302 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:18.240 but yeah, but certainly if if kids that young and that impressionable can 303 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.920 see that, I think in this case, Twitter had an obligations. And 304 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.440 again I don't one of the problems here, And I keep getting back to 305 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:33.279 this, and I'm being somewhat sarcastic because all you ever hear about at any 306 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.359 of these, you know, basically meetings and shows, which is what they 307 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:42.799 are when when new apps are unfurled and you know we're upping this and that 308 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.440 and you can be able to this and that, all we ever hear about 309 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:52.000 is there wonderful apps, you know, And I don't get why these wonderful 310 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.960 apps couldn't have identified something like that, and and and basically the app reported 311 00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:00.799 to some human being this is Dane injurious. You know, a twelve year 312 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.599 old child or slightly older can see this. You know, a ten year 313 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.720 old child can see it. Look over, twelve year olds, shoulder, 314 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.440 take this off your system. Well, they're interested in keeping it simply because 315 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:18.599 of the numbers, because because they get big note and look and we both 316 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.079 know that. And we're not making this up. This is for real bad 317 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:26.960 news. False news travels much faster than real news and good news. That's 318 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:33.359 been proven by many psychological studies. So does it really just really comes down 319 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:34.960 to, like, hey, this makes us We're not going to look past 320 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.480 the fact that this making us a lot of money. That's kind of deplorable. 321 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.359 Well, it is deplorable. And you know, this money thing is 322 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:51.839 very interesting because the great success, the extraordinary success of social media YouTube, 323 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.000 Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. Was based upon the fact it's free 324 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.960 to use. But that doesn't mean the people who were running it, you 325 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.519 know, were like already independently wealthy. They made it free as a strategy 326 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:12.759 to attract as many users as possible, so in return they could get as 327 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:19.440 many advertisers as possible to pay to have their ads run on the system. 328 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:26.599 That's indeed what runs social media, just like advertising runs broadcast media, just 329 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.720 like advertising runs newspaper papers. And if you think, well, isn't there 330 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.480 a better way? Unfortunately there isn't because the only other way is the government 331 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:41.440 controls media. And then welcome to Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and 332 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.559 even Putin's Russia, where anything you hear on any broadcast medium is basically something 333 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:52.240 the state has approved. Well, we'll take a break book. Before we 334 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.640 go for the break, i'd like to wrap up this particular segment. Well, 335 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.680 you and I are kind of media aheads. If you will, you 336 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:02.240 know, we teach it, we live it, we have lived in it. 337 00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:04.400 Said, what does all of this mean? And I hope it didn't 338 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:10.799 get too complicated for people because we're unwrapping so much. But it's important to 339 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.519 because the internet plays such a huge role in our lives. Why is it's 340 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:22.079 important for people to understand really what's going on with these lawsuits and cases? 341 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.039 Why does the rank and file, the average person really need to know about 342 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:30.400 such things? What does it mean to them in their everyday lives? Well, 343 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:34.279 I think in the nut show, what it means to them is everyone 344 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:41.119 seems to agree that the internet has to be safer than it is. That 345 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:47.759 doesn't mean perfect, that doesn't mean bland, that doesn't mean that everybody agrees 346 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:51.559 with everything that goes on there. But I think it does mean you shouldn't 347 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.359 have things that can lead to the death of human beings, most egregiously children, 348 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:03.599 but anyone of any age. And so since these horrible results have occurred 349 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:10.440 in two and fifteen, at other times really throughout the whole time of social 350 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:14.119 media, beginning say in two thousand and four to two thousand and five, 351 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:18.680 and developing by two thousand and eight two thousand and nine into the situation we 352 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.400 have now. What it means to everyone is if you're not comfortable with the 353 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:27.960 way social media are, if you're a parent and you have to worry every 354 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:34.440 minute what your kid is looking at, these cases and these issues are going 355 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:41.039 to decide how safe it's going to be for them. And if we value 356 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.079 that, which I think most people do and should, then we should look 357 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.920 at these lawsuits as a good thing. I mean, I do have to 358 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.559 say on the other side of it, though, the government and laws that 359 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:57.640 have passed are always very clumsy. They usually regulate things that don't need to 360 00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:02.640 be regulated. They overlook things that do need to be regulated. So if 361 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:07.000 we have to depend on the government to pass a law that's going to improve 362 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.559 things, then will be us, you know, if we're waiting for that. 363 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:15.720 But there's no other alternative. I think we you know, a certain 364 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:19.359 level of common sense has to go in here. I think it would be 365 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.359 safe to say that you and I are more liberal in our approach to things, 366 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.920 but certainly it can't be in everything. In other words, what I'm 367 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.680 saying is if someone would have come and show me someone beheading somebody in the 368 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:37.759 in the guise of some political statement or whatever, there's no I'm not looking 369 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:42.039 at it well that you know, we may have to know it's a violent 370 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:46.559 video that shouldn't be It's even at that point for someone I should speak for 371 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.480 myself, even someone as liberal minded as myself, as you know, there 372 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.599 has to be some type of some type of control. Would you tend to 373 00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:00.400 agree with that book, Yeah, I would agree with that completely. And 374 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.359 I just add, you know, part of my being so always talking about 375 00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:09.519 the First Amendment is being violated. We have to respect the First Amendment and 376 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:14.160 I think I've mentioned this to you before on an earlier show. You know, 377 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:19.480 you look at the you look at and listen to the Grammys, and 378 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.839 every year you have a rap singer, a hip hop singer getting up and 379 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:29.079 singing a song with like half a dozen bleeps in the song. There, 380 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.759 you see, I think the federal government at its worst trying to regulate something 381 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.519 point. So that's what I want to be clear about. I don't want 382 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:45.079 the Feds or any government telling people what to say and not say, except 383 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:50.319 when those words and those images can lead to a loss of life. And 384 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:53.319 as far as I'm concerned, if you hear somebody cursing their head off in 385 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:57.920 the Grammys, you don't like it, turn it off. You know who 386 00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.640 cares. You don't like a good maybe somebody else does like it. It's 387 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.559 not hurting anybody, you know, it's not influencing anyone to do violence. 388 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.199 You don't like that word, don't listen to it next time, or shut 389 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:12.840 it off right right at that moment. But that's a far cry from the 390 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:17.199 kinds of videos we're talking about. It's a perfect We'll take a break, 391 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.599 Paul when I come back. Some recent comments by Marjorie Taylor Green that you 392 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:29.039 know, when do we cross the line into sedition treason. I mean, 393 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:31.199 there is a fun and I want to get you. I want to get 394 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.000 your thoughts on that, and I think and I know it will be interesting. 395 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.079 So police don't go anywhere, and of course our listeners don't go anywhere. 396 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:43.199 We've got more Being Frank coming up with Professor Paul Levinson talking about, 397 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.639 of course free speech, and you so all coming up with more Being Frank 398 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.920 right after these brief commercial messages, don't go away. This is Hudson River 399 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.960 Radio dot Com ring a dash of green into your life. Check out the 400 00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:00.199 Many Shades of Green with Maxine, Margot Rubin and Malcolm Burn and get informed 401 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:06.119 about environmental issues and current events that affect us all. Pick a shade of 402 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:10.800 green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many Shades of Green available on Apple 403 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:20.639 Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudson River Radio 404 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.440 dot com. We're so good we don't need a transmitter. Be sure to 405 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:28.920 check out another one of our podcasts, Big Jim Wheelers Classic Radio Theater. 406 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:35.000 It features historic radio shows from the nineteen thirties through the nineteen sixties, including 407 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:39.480 Dragnet, Gunsmoke, the Shadow, and tons of other classic hits. Check 408 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:45.760 out Big Jim Wheelers Classic Radio Theater on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, 409 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:58.119 or wherever you get your podcasts Hudson River Radio dot com. Welcome back to 410 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.800 being Frank. We're the only way to b is Frank. I'm your host, 411 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:06.960 Frank Lebono. Thanks for sticking with us here on the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. 412 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.880 Remember you can catch us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and whenever. 413 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.719 Remember, they're all archived. We do a fresh show a week, 414 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.440 and we've done a fresh topic. We've done over sixty shows so far, 415 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.320 each one with a fresh topic. But you can see them anytime because they're 416 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:29.400 all archived on any one of the podcasting sites including Hudson River Radio, iHeartRadio, 417 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.880 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. Our very special guest tonight is my 418 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.559 media man and my go to guy for all matters, media Professor Paul Levinson, 419 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:45.840 my colleague at Fordham University. Paul. Before the break, we mentioned 420 00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:51.519 Marjorie Taylor Green is added again and we're all shaking. They can't see us, 421 00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:54.840 but we're all shaking our heads if you saw the video, you'd be 422 00:36:54.840 --> 00:37:00.239 seeing us shaking our heads. She's added again, where to basically paraphrase, 423 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:05.280 She's basically why don't we have two countries, a blue and a red and 424 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:08.000 we know where she lies, etc. The point being, Look, anybody 425 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:13.840 can say anything that's kind of the point of free speech. But at some 426 00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.440 point when is it cross the line? When are we talking here in terms 427 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.639 of legal issues and not only with her, And because you mentioned things like 428 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:27.440 a libelous comments and things like that, there there are legal issues associated with 429 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:32.920 the consequences of what we say. So in this particular case, sedition treason 430 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.559 and you're not a constitutional lawyer, we understand that. But from a media 431 00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:42.360 perspective, has she crossed the line? When do you cross the line? 432 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.039 And then talk a little bit about when people do cross the line into legal 433 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:51.320 issues a libelious comments and statements? Please? Okay, So, first of 434 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:53.320 all, I do think we have to make an important distinction here, and 435 00:37:53.360 --> 00:38:05.159 the distinction is did Madre Taalgreen commit crime? Or is she just unfit to 436 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.800 be in Congress? And should Congress reprimand her maybe even expel her. The 437 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.000 whole series of things that Congress can do and those are two very very different 438 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:21.760 things, because in terms of whether she committed a crime and whether a statement 439 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:29.480 like that is treasonous, that's an extremely slippery slope to go down. You 440 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.760 know. So I was talking to my class today, and I know you 441 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:37.000 did a show last week about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and since today, 442 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:40.840 the day that we're taping this as the anniversary of the Russian invasion, 443 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.840 I was talking to my class about that, and I said, you know, 444 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.599 frankly, just like you know where I'm coming from, I'd be nothing 445 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:52.760 but happy if I heard on the news that Vladimir Putin dropped dead. And 446 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:57.840 I'm sure if I if I said that in Russia, you probably wouldn't. 447 00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:04.519 You probably find that I fell off a balcony. But yeah, I'm able 448 00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.159 to say that. But the truth of the matter is I don't think that 449 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:14.880 should be criminal in any case. It's an expression of an opinion. It's 450 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:19.599 not a very nice opinion to wish anybody that they dropped dead. But I 451 00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:24.159 do think that's protected under the First Amendment. And you know, most of 452 00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:32.000 the stuff that these magarepublicans say, they are totally horrendous to my and your 453 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:38.320 progressive ears, but I don't think they even come close to being criminal activities. 454 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:44.199 And let's conclude what would be a criminal activity someone who was laying forth 455 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:49.639 a real plan. And it's even worse when the plans enacted and we see 456 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.760 the results, like the January sixth, twenty twenty one insurrection at the Capitol. 457 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:59.039 Someone who's saying this is ridiculous. You know, Trump did win the 458 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:05.320 election. Democrats basically are adding votes to it. We have to march on 459 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.559 Congress, not only march on Congress, but break into Congress, and we 460 00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:14.039 have to hang Mike Pence, etcetera, etcetera, and say that in a 461 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:21.320 way that that person is organizing trying to organize a real insurrection, and in 462 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.199 fact, that's in fact what happened. It would be good to know. 463 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:30.320 And that's why Congress is right to investigate this, and that's why the Justice 464 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.639 Department is right to currently be investigating this, because a real crime took place. 465 00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:39.920 You know, at the end of all those statements, but just making 466 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:44.199 a statement that there should be there are red states and blue states, and 467 00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:47.079 what was she saying? Such an idiotic statement. I think you're saying everybody. 468 00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.000 I think she said anyone from a blue state, who moves to a 469 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.840 red state shouldn't be allowed to vote for five years? What an idiotic statement. 470 00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.679 First of all, who in a blue state wants to move to a 471 00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:01.760 red state anyway? You know what, I'm living in New York. I 472 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.840 think I'm gonna move down to Florida with that lunatic de Santis. No thank 473 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.599 you. Maybe I'll move to California, which is like they seem pretty sane 474 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:16.880 now, you know what, I'm not going to move that to Texas either 475 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:22.679 with Abbot governor. So so that's the first thing makes her out of her 476 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:27.199 mind. But the idea that it's such a ridiculous statement you can't even take 477 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.920 it seriously. The idea that any state would say, if you've moved here 478 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:35.880 from another state, you can't vote here for five years. I don't know 479 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:38.679 where she gets her ideas. I don't know what Q and on site or 480 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:45.320 she makes them up herself, But frankly, that is so idiotic that I 481 00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:49.400 you know, if I were, you know, a district attorney someplace or 482 00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:53.639 working in a federal prosecutor's office, I couldn't with a straight face see fit 483 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.400 to bring her up on charges because you know, who is going to take 484 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:04.039 that seriously. So, but if we have a case, and certainly if 485 00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:08.199 we have a case where physical violence has taken place, and then we can 486 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:15.320 play back what led up to that physical violence. And you hear people inspiring 487 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:21.960 other people planning with other people to do things that are physically violent, that 488 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.480 I think what has to be stopped. Well, I know this is within 489 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:30.519 our purview as media guys, but why not. We like to talk. 490 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:32.800 We've got a few we've got a few minutes less, so why the heck 491 00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:38.599 not? But I was thinking about people like Alex Jones and Steve Bannon who 492 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:45.360 have been punished and rightly so, for their comments made, but they haven't 493 00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:50.079 gone away. Steve Bannon is still around, Alex Jones is still and they're 494 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:57.280 still making money out of media. Certainly frustrating. I know it is for 495 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.360 you, I know it is for me. Is that just the way it 496 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.159 is? And we have to live that is that part of the fallout, 497 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:06.519 if you will, of the First Amendment. And as we said, we 498 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.039 mentioned the George Orwell comment in the beginning. You said, looks it's here 499 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:14.599 to protect speech we don't like. We listen to things we like. That's 500 00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.480 easy. This is to protect things we don't like, and I don't like 501 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:22.639 them, but yet they still continue to be monetized, and that just frustrates 502 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:27.320 the heck out of me. Your thoughts just in general, well, apropos 503 00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:31.599 of money. Alex Jones was found guilty in a civil suit brought against him 504 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:38.280 by the Connecticut parents of those kids who were massacred. Whenever was in two 505 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:44.360 and fourteen, you know, one of the worst of these series of horrendous 506 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:49.199 things that keep happening. And Alex Jones, I don't know what you would 507 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:57.280 call it, the depravity, the the insanity of saying somehow the parents were 508 00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:00.960 faking it. I mean, I can't they say do they say these things 509 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:06.920 simply to get raised? And Culter, who had become an afterthought I've forgotten 510 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.480 she had still still around, all of a sudden comes through with all these 511 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:15.159 anti Semitic statements again to try to prove I guess, some relevance. But 512 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:21.960 it's just amazing to me how these people are again and this is the first 513 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.320 Amendment, but they just seem to me, they seem to say things simply 514 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.119 for the sake of saying them, because we're talking about them right now. 515 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.480 So if they haven't been forgotten, do we do we add fuel to the 516 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:39.119 fire by even discussing them? Should just ignore them completely? Well that's a 517 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:45.400 very good point. There's no doubt that the best way of burying these people 518 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:50.960 is to never talk about them. Right. But here's what the problem is, 519 00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:54.199 and this is a really sobering thought, but it's true. There are 520 00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:01.079 people. I would bet if you walked a mile or I walked a mile 521 00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:08.679 in our respective neighborhoods, we would pass by five, ten, twenty different 522 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:15.400 households where there were people who eat up and love what Steve Bannon and Alex 523 00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:22.400 Jones saying for that matter, the garbage that you see on Fox. But 524 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.360 as I've said many times, there are things that we can do. It's 525 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:30.719 not just a question of like arresting these people. I seriously sent a note 526 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:37.599 to the Federal Trade Commission months ago saying that they should oblige because it's false 527 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:43.360 advertising Fox News to change its name to Fox Propaganda. That's what they are. 528 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.760 I mean, I heard the Upper Poa of Ukraine right after the Russian 529 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:52.880 invasion, Tucker Carson got on the air babbling away, how maybe Putin is 530 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.719 right? So you know, I don't think he's on Putin's payroll, but 531 00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.159 obviously there are people out there who like hearing that stuff. We're not going 532 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:05.480 to change them. The best thing that we can do, and it's not 533 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:10.280 a question of committing a crime, is where possible through these people in civil 534 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:17.639 court, as as as the parents of those Connecticut children did and they won, 535 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.920 and that I think was a very just verdict. Well, you know, 536 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.480 Paul, and the upside and again, fairness, we do try to 537 00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:28.639 be balanced. I hate that that sounds like a fox thing of fair and 538 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.599 bald, but it's still true. We are trying to be in that sense. 539 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:43.320 Um yet um we have. The point that I'm trying to make is 540 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:46.679 we have been given the privilege of just being able to do a virtual hour 541 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:51.239 show of saying wherever the hell we pretty much wanted. We talked about who 542 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.000 we wanted, we talked about stations we'd like, we don't like. That's 543 00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.320 a beautiful thing, Paul, and thank god we still have it, and 544 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.719 people like you and I are willing to fight to continue to have it, 545 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.719 even with things you know, we don't like. And I think people have 546 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:13.480 to make that distinction. And I always say that people are invited on this 547 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:17.199 program with opposing point of views. It tends to seem to get like minded 548 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:23.119 people on the program, but certainly be willing to hear another intelligent opinion expressed. 549 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:27.119 And I think that's still still a beautiful thing, and it's still a 550 00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:30.880 beautiful country for that your final thoughts. I agree with that one hundred percent. 551 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:39.159 I think that is what civilization is all about, in contrast to savagery. 552 00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:45.519 You know, human beings disagree. We disagree with everything. We disagree 553 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:50.480 with members of our family. We disagree with you in politics. We disagree 554 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.320 over sports, which team, which player is better. We disagree over music 555 00:47:54.360 --> 00:48:00.519 that's wonderful, that's horrendous. We disagree about everything that I think is part 556 00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:04.519 of the festival of human life. And I agree with you it is a 557 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.519 beautiful thing. And the fact that we can talk about it, I'm sure 558 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:13.880 that people, though, who feel like Marjorie Taylor Green wouldn't think it was 559 00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:17.280 a beautiful thing to hear us saying I know a lot of people like to 560 00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:21.199 shut me up. I can't speak for you, Paul, but I can 561 00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.159 honestly say, you know, there's a few people out there I wish he 562 00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:28.800 would just shut up. And I was on the O'Reilly factor a bunch of 563 00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.719 times over the years, and every shole time my mailbox would be flooded by 564 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.920 a hundred emails. I don't know how they got my Namely, how on 565 00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:40.360 earth you teach it for the university? Are you kidding me? Present to 566 00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:45.559 the university? I said, great, right past, I got that. 567 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.119 One day I could report you to the school too, I said, I 568 00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.920 think they'd probably be pretty glad to hear that I'm out there doing doing what 569 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.119 I'm doing. Paul, I want to thank you once again for all your 570 00:48:55.119 --> 00:49:01.360 expertise here I'm Being Frank and your intelligent conversation always pleasure, always, Thank 571 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:05.400 you, Paul, and of course a special thanks to our listeners who take 572 00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:09.000 the time to give us a voice in their lives. Remember we offer a 573 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:15.199 fresh topic every week and you can catch us wherever and whenever you get your 574 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:22.280 favorite podcast like Apple, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Spreaker and more. You 575 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.760 can also check us out on the Being Frank Facebook page. Thanks to our 576 00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:30.119 engineer, the mailman, mister Neil Richter, who gets us streaming every week. 577 00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:32.960 He's the man. I'll leave you with a couple of nuggets, Paul, 578 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.159 don't go anywhere yet. You know you're gonna make it work a little 579 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:38.960 bit more. But before then, I got a good quote from Salomon, 580 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:44.519 Salomon Rushdie excuse me, that I think is very appropriate when he said, 581 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:50.599 what is freedom of expression without freedom to offend? It ceases to exist? 582 00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:53.320 Kind of our topic tonight, Paul, as I mentioned in the beginning, 583 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:58.599 as a renaissance man, you're not only a college professor, an author, 584 00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:02.119 a blogger. You're all so musician. You brought some music with you tonight. 585 00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:07.320 What are we going to hear? You're going to hear a song that 586 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:12.480 I wrote the lyrics to back I think around two thousand and eleven. And 587 00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:15.159 to give a tiny bit more context, those people who know my science fiction 588 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:21.000 know that time travel is one of my favorite themes. The plot to save 589 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:24.320 Socrates, Marilyn and Money. Those are you know, a few of my 590 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.280 science fiction works. And I decided, you know what, I should write 591 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:35.559 a time travel lyric. You know it's good for novels and short stories. 592 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:40.480 So I wrote this lyric If I traveled to the past, and I ran 593 00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:45.280 into a guy, John Annelio, who also was writing and still is writing 594 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:51.400 like science fiction songs, and he actually contacted me and said, hey, 595 00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:53.239 do you have any lyrics and maybe we can write a song together. I 596 00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:57.519 said sure, and I sent them If I traveled to the Past. He 597 00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:01.679 wrote the music to it. It wasn't until twenty eighteen, you know, 598 00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.159 I take my time with these things. I finally went into a studio and 599 00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.039 recorded it, accompanied by the name of Old Bear Records in Buffalo, New 600 00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:15.599 York. Wanted me to put together an album of science fiction songs, songs 601 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:19.880 about time travel and space travel, so we included if I Traveled to the 602 00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.400 Past, that's what your listeners are going to hear. But least but not 603 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:29.079 least, as you also know. I also wrote a story called It's Real 604 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:35.400 Life. It's an alternate history story about the late disc jockey Pete Fauntel from 605 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:42.039 WFUV to take the train down to Grand Central and finds himself in another reality, 606 00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.360 our reality in which John Lennon was killed. It turns out in his 607 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:52.519 reality Lennon was not killed, and there's a radio play which is just about 608 00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:55.280 finished. I keep saying this, but the guy assured me he's going to 609 00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:59.119 send me a rough cut of it in the next couple of days. It 610 00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.039 should be up in mid March, in which this song If I travel to 611 00:52:02.119 --> 00:52:06.719 the Past not sung by me, but we got somebody else with a British 612 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:09.960 accent to sing it plays a major role. We're gonna hit you up for 613 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:13.599 that radio play when it's ready to Paul. We want, we want, 614 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:17.239 We definitely want to be talking about that again. It's terrific, folks. 615 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:22.039 That's all for me. This week's being Frank. Will be back will when 616 00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:27.480 I can learn to talk again. We'll be back with more being Frank. 617 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.000 We're the only way to be is of course Frank next week. Thanks for 618 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:44.920 joining us, folks. We'll see you next time. If I traveled to 619 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:51.000 the past to change Joe mine, so you love me then and you love 620 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.840 me now, But I am known to travel back in the first place. 621 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:04.960 If I traveled back so that the world was blind christlip time, could I 622 00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:14.320 slip the vine of paradox that turns the best into the first came it said 623 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:22.239 right to turn the sun into the darkest night. If I could be get 624 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:29.760 pork but just one time, I could have it all. If I could 625 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:38.119 have you in my heart. If I traveled to the paint I Pavitell a 626 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:46.119 single soul. My lips would be seen except where they brushed against your street. 627 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:52.719 If I traveled to the bed to change yall to mind, so you 628 00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:59.639 loved me then and you love me now? What I have known to travel 629 00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:07.920 back in the first place, I eat, sample run, to turn the 630 00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:15.559 side into the darkest night. If I could make it part just one time, 631 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:22.000 I could hide it at all, I could make it my house. 632 00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:30.800 Only I could travel at from time. Shoot, only I can trive back 633 00:54:30.960 --> 00:55:05.519 to time. Hudson River Radio dot com