1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,840 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,280 Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Blaine Pardo, author 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,359 of a Special Kind of Evil, the Book of record on the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:53,439 --> 00:00:56,399 Murders. Blaine, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for 13 00:00:56,439 --> 00:01:00,679 having me on. Do you start by telling us how you became aware of 14 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:03,280 the Colonial Parkway murders and when you decided to write a book about it? 15 00:01:03,879 --> 00:01:07,439 Back around, I want to say twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, my daughter 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:14,000 and I had finished our last book on my unsolved murder in Michigan, and 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,400 we were looking for something closer to home, and we started taking a look 18 00:01:18,439 --> 00:01:23,920 at various crimes that were unsolved in Virginia, and the Colonial Parkway murders rose 19 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,200 to the top. And as I started going through it, I've never tackled 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,920 a serial killer before, and that had some appeal, etc. And as 21 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,480 we started taking a look more and more at it, there wasn't a lot 22 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:41,040 of material actually out there at the time about this case. That's changed in 23 00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:45,239 the last two or three years at least, if not five years, And 24 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:51,840 so we started a two year research junket to start actually working on this and 25 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,159 interview started with interviews with family members that we were able to track down, 26 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,920 and that led us. That got us a little more motivated as we started 27 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,519 that process. Then that led us to doing some more digging and speaking with 28 00:02:05,599 --> 00:02:09,280 former law enforcement and things on those lines try to get as much information as 29 00:02:09,319 --> 00:02:14,080 we could out there about the cases. Yeah, I remember you and I 30 00:02:14,159 --> 00:02:16,919 spending a fair amount of time on the phone talking about the case, and 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,840 you were really building your knowledge base and then moving out to talk to family 32 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:28,719 members and potential witnesses law enforcement. You really worked the research side of the 33 00:02:28,759 --> 00:02:32,000 thing very Yeah, it was a lot of fun. We met some fantastic 34 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,080 people along the way, and people I still keep in contact with present company 35 00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:42,479 included. But it was fun in some respects to do this because you felt 36 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,560 like you were actually making a little bit of a difference. Getting a book 37 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:52,120 out there about a case like this actually generates tips, it generates leads, 38 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:55,800 It keeps it in the public's eye, and you need that on a case 39 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,759 that's this old because it's so easy, especially in these days where we've cut 40 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:07,719 money to law enforcement, which almost always hits the cold case files. Keeping 41 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:13,439 the information out there and keeping people talking about it is the best way to 42 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,199 make sure that actions take it on the part of law enforcement. So let's 43 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,599 steer back to three weeks ago. Now, what was your first reaction when 44 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:30,960 you viewed the January eighth press conference they announced this link between Alan Wade Wilmer 45 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,000 Senior, and they indicated that he was responsible as a result of DNA testing 46 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,960 for the deaths of Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and Teresa Howell. What 47 00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:44,960 was your first reaction. I got to be honestly, the very first thing 48 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:47,280 when I saw it, and I got bombarded by people going to You're watching 49 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:51,039 the press conference, and I'm like, what press conference? And by the 50 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,400 time I got to it, at At already wrapped. And then by the 51 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:59,080 time I saw it it was post conference. But when I was watching it, 52 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:01,560 the first thing it hit at me was when I saw the truck. 53 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,120 I literally had a chill go down my spine because we had talked to earth 54 00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:14,000 Wells about that vehicle and about Wilmer. I didn't have his name at that 55 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,639 point. Earth couldn't remember his name specifically. Stumbled through it. I dug 56 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,120 up my notes on our interview just a couple of days ago to go back 57 00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:29,199 over it again to see did I miss something, And he couldn't remember exactly 58 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,199 what the guy's name was. But we had changed the license plate in the 59 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:38,000 book because he said, we cleared this guy, And he said, are 60 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,720 you going to put the license plate in? And I said that would be 61 00:04:40,879 --> 00:04:43,439 my preference, and he goes, if you do that, people are going 62 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,079 to harass this guy if he's kept the license plate. We said, we 63 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,800 have cleared this guy, and we changed it. It made sense to do 64 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,759 that, and we do that occasionally with witnesses and things on those lines. 65 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,720 But when I saw that truck, I had a chill go down my spine. 66 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:01,759 I was like, Oh my god. The FBI they had this guy, 67 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:09,759 They had him under surveillance, they confronted him, they gathered evidence from 68 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,639 Alan Wilmer Senior, and they went through all of this and they polygraphed the 69 00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:18,879 guy and let him go. And now it turns out that was on the 70 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:25,000 Call Haley case, but now he's implicated in a different one of the Colonial 71 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,759 Parkway murders and an additional murder trees Owl, which now I'm caught in this 72 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:32,600 quandary, and I'm sure you probably felt the same way, Billy. In 73 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:35,279 your mind, you start going, so, is this person now part of 74 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:40,720 the Colonial Parkway murders or are is it accept do you treat it as a 75 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:44,879 separate murder and things on those lines, and you start trying to go, 76 00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:47,920 oh my god, now that they've got him on these cases, can they 77 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,879 now nail this guy on all of the other cases or any of the other 78 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,160 cases. He was the prime suspect on Paul Haley, And we're talking four 79 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,680 days after all of this was when the FBI started hounding this guy. I 80 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,040 was stunned and I was really shocked at the FBI didn't come right out and 81 00:06:09,079 --> 00:06:14,560 say this guy was on our radar that. I went back through the conference 82 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:18,600 twice going are they going to say that? Or did anybody ask that question? 83 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,240 It was very hard to hear the press questions, period, and that 84 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:27,560 I believe was deliberate. There's two things. Having run a lot of press 85 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,639 conferences, you either put a microphone out where the reporters are so the audience 86 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:38,240 can hear the questions or standard protocol, which was not done in this press 87 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,600 conference is if you don't put a microphone out where people can hear the questions 88 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,680 being asked by the reporters, you repeat the question. And they didn't do 89 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,240 that either. Now the question was actually asked by Andy Fox twice. Yeah, 90 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,040 it just was frustrating. I've been a little displeased with the response to 91 00:06:57,079 --> 00:07:00,560 that because from where I sat, there's a lot of implicy You look at 92 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,600 the whole Waterman theory, which really came up with the death of your sister. 93 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,560 They took a look that's when they formulated this profile that it had to 94 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:13,439 be a waterman. There was a nautical line. That was the word that 95 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,279 IRV Wells used, nautical that was used in the first pair of murders. 96 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,879 There was a very sharp knife which they characterized as the type of knife that 97 00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:27,240 could have been used by a waterman. You had diesel fuel being used in 98 00:07:27,319 --> 00:07:30,240 that first crime, and a lot of watermen they don't buy their diesel fuel 99 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:34,319 down at the docks. They buy it and at gas stations, etc. 100 00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:40,079 Because it's much cheaper to do so and transport it. And that was how 101 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,959 that all formulated in the first place. And it was with the third pair 102 00:07:44,959 --> 00:07:49,279 of murders they started cracking that again with Carl Hayley looking at that profile and 103 00:07:50,199 --> 00:07:57,680 hearing they had somebody that was a known stalker on the parkway and who was 104 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:03,560 confrontational with people. The example that the IRV gave me was he confronted one 105 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,959 couple because he thought it was two girls kissing, and that made me immediately 106 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,240 think of your sister and Becky. It's like you just go, Wow, 107 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:18,160 what is this? How did you miss this all this time? You had 108 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,600 access to better material than I did. I was relying on IRV Wells In 109 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:28,480 an interview decades later. The FBI's had this information for some time. I 110 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:33,480 found it a little disingenuous. I really was hoping they would have said more 111 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:39,159 about we've been looking into this guy. Why do you think that they failed 112 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:43,240 to announce that at the press conference because they didn't announce that he was a 113 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,759 lead suspect. They did not announce, Hey, we'd been looking at this 114 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:50,000 guy for a while. Why do you think they kept it quiet? I 115 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,120 think they're worried about the reputation in the FBI. I hate seeing stuff like 116 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,320 that because I don't know. I have to guess if I'm making a guess. 117 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:05,120 They're protecting the repute FBI, and I understand that, but let's be 118 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:09,679 open and honest with the families here, especially the call Heally families, and 119 00:09:09,759 --> 00:09:11,679 say, look, this was the guy we had on our radar and we 120 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:16,480 dropped that ball. And I don't I haven't talked to Joyce specifically about this, 121 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,399 but I don't think that's been the case. I don't think they've been 122 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,799 open and honest one hundred percent on this. And maybe it's because they're still 123 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,720 doing a very active investigation and they're at some point going to reveal everything. 124 00:09:30,759 --> 00:09:33,519 But I got to be honest with you, I'm getting stonewalled on my foyer 125 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:39,240 requests for these allegedly closed cases across the board at this point, and it's 126 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:45,759 getting frustrating as someone who wants to write the last chapter or two of this 127 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,360 book. Explain for our listeners, Blaine, if you would, what a 128 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,039 foyer request is and how it works. Government agencies, usually with the exception 129 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:01,039 of Congress, are required to respond to what's called a Freedom of Information Act 130 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,559 request, which is anybody who's assistant can make a request of the FBI of 131 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,720 Virginia State Police, of local law enforcement and say I desire a copy of 132 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:20,919 this information because it's public information. Now. On closed cases, generally, 133 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,519 I found nobody releases very much information. Usually with the FBI, you get 134 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:31,360 what's called ViCAP information, which is their tracking database for tracking crimes, and 135 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,240 they usually enter like a lot of detail about the crime scene and investigative officers 136 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,840 and stuff into that. I've gotten that on the Freeway phantom case with no 137 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,159 problem, which with a closed case is you can get the entire file, 138 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:48,279 you can get photographs, you can get all of the information. They usually 139 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:56,159 redact out people's addresses, social security numbers, drivers, license numbers. You 140 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:03,039 can't give away somebody's birthday and name because that can backfire and be used for 141 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,039 information theft. They usually redact the files and send them to you, and 142 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,840 I've got tons of those things that I use for other cases. I filed 143 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,320 immediately when this started. I started filing foyer requests because I said, okay, 144 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,720 you've closed Nobbling, you've closed Edwards, and you closed Teresa Howell and 145 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,159 they said so at the press conference, that's what they said, this is 146 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:31,200 the guy we would be trying. So I filed foier request. Now, 147 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:37,200 Virginia state law allows them owning agency in this case of Virginia State Police, 148 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,759 to withhold information. The foil law allows them to do that. They took 149 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,679 the stand with me in the response. I got back to say these cases 150 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,320 aren't closed, and I was like, that's not what you just told everyone 151 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,039 in the world. Yeah, I said. I reached out to Isle of 152 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,960 Wight and I said, no, I know the sheriff of the White conducted 153 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:03,919 investigation because I interviewed it. Yes, I remember that. So I filed 154 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:07,960 a foyer with them and they said, we don't have any files related to 155 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,320 this. Kise. I'm sorry. I don't believe that that is. I've 156 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,840 met with Isle of Wight years later and had some very good conversations with them. 157 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,360 I remember meeting with Lieutenant Tommy Potter and other folks and them responding this 158 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,679 way years later. I don't believe that to be factually correct. Isle of 159 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,240 Wight does have files. They investigated the murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling. 160 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,840 Ultimately it became a Virginia State Police case. As we understand it, 161 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,480 and I know you covered this in the book Blame. Isle of Wight didn't 162 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,759 have the resources. It was a very small department back then, and Isle 163 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:50,559 of Wight was kind of a quiet, very beautiful bit of a backwater in 164 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,399 the eighties. So they handed the case off. But they have files. 165 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,360 I know they have files. I know they did too, and I found 166 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,679 that disingenuous. I reached out to Hampton and Hampton said they're going to respond, 167 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:05,480 which I was surprised, and that's on the Teresa Hall case. So 168 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,679 what I got back from him a week ago, I hadn't looked at immediately 169 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,960 when I got it, because it said we're sending you the incident report. 170 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,639 And what I got was an incident report that doesn't even have her name on 171 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:24,240 it. Wow, it is almost like I got back a blank form. 172 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:31,399 No investigative officers, no description of the murder, nothing, It is a 173 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,879 blank form. There's this whole mechanism that's being applied here of we're not going 174 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:41,879 to release that information, and I find that a little bit frustrating, obviously, 175 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,840 But there's ways around that, and I'm trying to pursue some of those 176 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,320 kind of back avenues to get what I want. I did get some good 177 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:58,480 response from Lancaster, at least their police department when I asked about Alan Wilmer 178 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,440 and what Keith will I asked for what are their arrest records? And they 179 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,480 didn't give me the incident reports, but they did give me a list of 180 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:13,519 what they've been arrested for. Very interesting. Yeah, I want to know, 181 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,080 Yeah, we would love to know. Yes, please please, let's 182 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,240 go over this. Yes, let's go over it. Well, let's okay, 183 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:24,559 this is I haven't made this public before we get the scoop. Days 184 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,080 all get the scoop. Everybody who's listening to the podcast start Johnstown. Alan 185 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:35,480 Wade Wilmer Senior. On the twenty ninth of October nineteen eighty one, was 186 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:41,279 charged with curse and abuse. On the same day, he was also charged 187 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:50,039 with assault and battery. William Keith Wilmer has been was charged on November eighteenth, 188 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:56,600 nineteen seventy one, with indecent language on the phone. On September eighth, 189 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,360 nineteen eighty three, he was charged with make making an obscene phone call. 190 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:07,039 On the twenty second of October nineteen eighty three, he was also charged 191 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:13,200 with making an obscene phone call. Now we know the latter two of those 192 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:18,879 calls. If you look at that article in the Washingtonian on murder on the 193 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:24,720 Rappahannock, we know that those two calls were specifically mentioned that he was calling 194 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:30,639 someone who worked at a bank, So we know those two calls. These 195 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,919 guys, really they have. I say, it's an unremarkable arrest report. 196 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,600 I've never been arrested, so I have nothing on my report, and I'm 197 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,320 sure most of you do either. So I look at it go. These 198 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,480 are huge arrest reports, but there's something there. What I look at is 199 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,600 what are the dates, because are there tiger dates with any of these that 200 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,320 align to the Colonial Parkway. Meers and my genealogist Gene has also been looking 201 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:03,000 at the dates of his divorce, birthday, mother's death day, all of 202 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:07,080 that stuff, because I know, Bill, you and I talked about this. 203 00:16:07,159 --> 00:16:10,720 It's like the day my mother died. Every time it comes up every 204 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:15,399 year, the anniversary, I have an emotional day. Yeah, without questioning, 205 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,720 me too. Me too, as a matter of fact. And I 206 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:21,039 took a look at all those and none of those dates aligned any of the 207 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,840 Colonial park wimers. So I don't think it's a trigger date for these guys. 208 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:26,879 I don't know. And I'm looking at both of these guys for a 209 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:33,039 reason because while Allen Wade Wilmer Senior was the one implicated by DNA and these 210 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,360 three murders, there's always been a theory that there's two people that may have 211 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:41,720 been involved with the Colonial Parkway murders. You read that article on murder on 212 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:47,440 the Rappahannock, you start wondering, okay, as William Keith Wilmer in any 213 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,120 way possibly tied to this was to say a thing that the two brothers went 214 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:56,240 out and did. And when you look at the article murder on their Rappahannock, 215 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,960 which we do recommend and we'll link in the show notes for this conversation. 216 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:06,079 It's very clear that this man, Emerson Stevens, did not kill Mary 217 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:11,440 Harding and dump her body on the Rappahannock River. Keith Wilmer is mentioned specifically 218 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,759 and by name as a suspect in this horrific homicide, which is still unsolved 219 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:21,039 after all these years. Yeah. I took a look at that, and 220 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,440 I think the most chilling thing for me, and I'm sure it was for 221 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,160 you and Kristen as well. When you see the way the body was weighed 222 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:33,359 down in the river, the men block and chain, it's hard not to 223 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,559 think of Keith and Cassandra from Colonial Parkway murders. Clearly the FBI thought their 224 00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:42,279 bodies had been dumped in the river. Now you're looking at someone who had 225 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:48,079 access to a boat, who potentially we don't know for sure that Keith Wilmer 226 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,279 was involved with that crime, but he certainly is implicated in the article with 227 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,480 it. Who weighed down a body before in the river? Did he get 228 00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,640 better at it? And this time he knew where to or to use a 229 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,599 better way to attach the weights or whatever. It certainly does add up why 230 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,880 we haven't no one stumbled across with all the construction that's been going on down 231 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,200 in that area, no one's ever stumbled across a shallow grave with human remains 232 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,480 in it, especially now that we know we're working with a suspect who's a 233 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:26,319 waterman. The rivers for folks that haven't been to the Colonial Parkway, the 234 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,640 James and York Rivers are right there, and clearly if we look at Kathy 235 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,440 Thomas and Rebeccadowski, there's an attempt to push Kathy's Honda into the York River 236 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,960 that's followed a year later by Robin Edwards and David Nobling. We know their 237 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,720 bodies were dumped in the water. That's the James, and we now know 238 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:51,200 that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for their deaths. Then we move forward 239 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,319 about what eight months or so and Keith calling Cassandra Haley, and here Wilmer 240 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:03,960 again is clearly linked, not necessarily yet, but he is clearly suspect number 241 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,680 one as you referred to him. Yeah, in that disappearance, and the 242 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,680 river's right there. I'm sorry, Kristin, go ahead, I was going 243 00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:14,839 to say, and if you look too at the crimes that are bracketing Ragged 244 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:18,000 Island and Keith Colinus Sander Haley. I'm wondering if he has anything to do 245 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:22,079 with the disappearance of Brian Pattinger and Laurian Powell, both of whom were found 246 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,039 in the river. So I do think there's a good possibility that he finally 247 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:30,640 figured out here's how I weigh a body down and make a body disappear in 248 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,960 a body of water. Yeah, we've been Bill and I were talking a 249 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,799 little bit before the show about this. I think we've really got to do 250 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,000 what it's called geographic profiling on this and look at all the places where the 251 00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:47,960 victims were last seen, plot those on the map. Then you plot as 252 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,759 well where the bodies were found. You plot where known in this case, 253 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,599 we now have a suspect can be plotted if you do all of that. 254 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:03,799 There's a very sophisticated program that have been written that look at traffic patterns and 255 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,599 things along those lines to really then sketch out what the sphere is and where 256 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,000 the heart of that sphere is, because that's usually a place where one of 257 00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:17,559 the killers has some sort of connection to be it. Things on those lines. 258 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:21,640 And there's a guy by the name Arosso who's written the book on geographic 259 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,880 profiling, and it's absolutely phenomenal to go through it. It's a science all 260 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,240 on its own. It's fascinating to go through. But it's very useful to 261 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,920 pin down a little bit too, of what the range of these guys are. 262 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:37,880 Everybody has always said, and I'm sure you guys have heard this time 263 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,680 and time again. They say the last two murders, they always say those 264 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:47,920 probably weren't the Colonial Parkway murderer. They always throw in ragged island and go, 265 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:51,880 that probably wasn't the Colonial Parkway murder because it's not on the Colonial Parkway. 266 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,720 And for people who don't live down there or who haven't driven that area 267 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:00,799 or know the area, we're talking twenty minutes, it's twenty five minutes. 268 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:06,799 And that's in present day traffic. Mind. You to get to these locations. 269 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:08,519 And now that you know where these guys live, which is up in 270 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:14,680 the Northern Neck, up in Lancaster, and you start looking at their geographic 271 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:18,799 range, suddenly you go, wait, their range is pretty big. And 272 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,200 if I was in law enforcement right now, I'd be dusting off every single 273 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,759 unsolved murder and taking it, putting it under the microscope and going could these 274 00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:33,720 guys have one of these guys at least Alan Wilmer be responsible for that. 275 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:37,200 And one of the things that's very clear in the FBI and Virginia State Police 276 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,799 and Hampton PD said this as well, was that Alan Wade Wilmer was highly 277 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:47,119 transient. He often lived on his boat, which puts him right in the 278 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,519 middle of the tidewater area where the Colonial Parking murders epicenter is. So he's 279 00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:56,519 living on his boat for weeks or months at a time, docked right nearby 280 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:02,400 and working those waterways. Yeah, you worked out a Gloucester. He literally 281 00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:07,279 was a quarter mile to a half mile from where two of the murder seats 282 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,920 I shouldn't say murder seats, one murder scene and one car abandonment scene in 283 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:18,400 the case of Paul Hanley blame. We have so many listener questions for you 284 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,119 that we want to go ahead and jump right in. Everybook is so enthusiastic 285 00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:25,960 to know that you were going to be on the podcast, So I think 286 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,359 we're just going to try to do as many as we can sure sure, 287 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,279 and go from there. So I'll come see it and read you the question 288 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,680 and the first name of the listener and we'll just go from there. If 289 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,440 we need to, we'll do a speed round. So the first question is 290 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,720 from Heather who asks, was Alan Wade Wilmer Senior at the top of your 291 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:49,880 personal list of who you feel was responsible after writing this book? And then 292 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,200 she follows it up with did you even have a top list? He was 293 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:56,720 not at the top of my list, And I really, if I was 294 00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:00,480 an arrogant bastard, I would say, oh, yes, he was all 295 00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:03,480 long, I'm going to be honest here, he was not at the top 296 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:11,240 of my list. I have gotten so many tips over Ron Little and Steve 297 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:18,200 Blackman over the years. They were given Blackman's recent criminal history and stuff, 298 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,960 they were higher on my list. Not so much Ron Little, but definitely 299 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,960 Steve Blackman's name has come up so many times it was hard for me to 300 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,880 not think of them as potential targets in this. Yeah, but there was 301 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,799 a lot of people that There's a lot of people in various cases as tied 302 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:42,160 to the Colonial Parkway murder, a lot of potential suspects that were on the 303 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,880 radar that I was like, at least worth taking another look at, and 304 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,519 this was one of those. This was one that was worth taking another look 305 00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:56,880 at Haley asks, do you think Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for all 306 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,440 of the Colonial Parkway murders? I don't know for sure. The boy it 307 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:06,000 needs to be explored. Whether he did it alone, I don't know. 308 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,079 I think it's certainly now possible. Now that we have a name, we 309 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,160 need to take a more serious look at what other evidence can tie this person 310 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,759 to this. And I think a very logical place to go, in my 311 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,519 opinion, is go back to that list of everybody that was at the party 312 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:27,480 at University Square apartments. Go out there and say this guy, did you 313 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:30,400 see him in the parking lot, did you see him at the party? 314 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,680 Did you see him floating around? Did you see this truck anywhere? Now 315 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,440 that you've got a tangible piece of evidence with these photographs, you can go 316 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:45,000 back to all of those people. And I would be very disappointed if the 317 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,200 FBI wasn't calling up every single one of them and going back to that. 318 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,400 I think they've got to do that. I think they've got to also take 319 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,960 a look at all of the instances where someone was confronting someone on the parkway, 320 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,119 because that's how Alan Wade Senior got into this in the first place. 321 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,079 He was very aggressive and confronting people on the parkway. Now that you've got 322 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:11,759 his picture and stuff, go back to all of those cases. And again, 323 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:14,599 now it's even worse because you're doing with the park police, which is 324 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:22,359 a full different subject with me. They're making the FBI look good. That's 325 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,240 my view of the park police is they make the FBI look really good. 326 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,559 You need to go back on all of those and start. You have to 327 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:33,200 pry this case back open and expose it to the new evidence and go, 328 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,799 hey, did somebody see this? People are coming out of the woodward Blayane 329 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,839 and I know what's happening with you as well. Kristin and I are hearing 330 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,559 from a number of people and they are coming forward now, and they are 331 00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:52,519 saying, I was accosted by that man, short, muscular driving in some 332 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:57,400 cases the exact same truck that we've seen in the pres materials, this blue 333 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:03,440 green work truck nineteen sixty six Dodge, which was very distinctive and old in 334 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,960 nineteen eighty eight. Yeah, and they're coming forward, and what's really frustrating 335 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,279 is they have told me they reported this to the National Park Service and the 336 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,839 FBI back when it happened after the murders. So the disconnect here in this 337 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:26,839 case is just baffling. How did Alan Wade Wilmer slide when so many people 338 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:32,640 were coming forward and saying I had a very scary or uncomfortable encounter with this 339 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,759 man where he came up to us and demanded driver's licenses. He wasn't wearing 340 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:41,920 a cop uniform. He was typically wearing like a mechanics uniform which a waterman 341 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:47,200 might wear. Behaving incredibly aggressively towards these couples. They live to tell the 342 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:52,000 tale. But you're absolutely right, it's imperative that the FBI go back and 343 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,119 reinterview all the people that were at that party. There's a big discussion going 344 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:03,200 on as we speak on the Keith Call Cassandra Haley page on Facebook run by 345 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,079 our friends from the Call family, and there's a number of people that were 346 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,799 there at the party who were saying, I was there that night, I 347 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:15,400 saw Keith and Sandy. These people need to be reinterviewed. Yes, they 348 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:22,160 absolutely do. I'm hoping and praying that's exactly what the FBI and the Virginia 349 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,880 State Police are doing. I know if I was in charge of this case, 350 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,720 That's what I would be doing. I would be doing a forensic diagnosis 351 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:37,160 of every aspect of this family's life. I'd be praying every credit card report 352 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,240 that has ever been produced for these guys. I would be looking for every 353 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:48,079 bit of information to formulate the case. I certainly hope that's the case. 354 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,839 I don't know if that is, but I would certainly hope that would be 355 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,079 the case. You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back after 356 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:11,759 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Do you 357 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,400 think this is from Patricia Marie and Patricia says, do you think that if 358 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,599 it wasn't for earth Wells telling you that Wilmer was the first suspect in the 359 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,400 Call Haley murder and you putting the information in your book, that the FBI 360 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,359 might not have eventually fessed up to it. Other people knew about that, 361 00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,519 and I've talked during the writing of the book. I talked to Bill about 362 00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:37,920 this, and Bill was aware of it. I also talked with the call 363 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:42,160 family about this, and they were aware of it. Other people knew about 364 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:48,920 it. I think I know Andy Fox used the book to pose his articles 365 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,480 in question Andy carries around a dog eared copy of this book everywhere he goes. 366 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,640 I think the book made it so that they had to respond to it 367 00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:03,440 because it was out there and there is no way around it. I don't 368 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,839 know if their response was fully appropriate. I think they needed to be a 369 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,000 little more open and honest personally. They have, on numerous occasions with school 370 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,400 shootings come out and said, oh, this person was on our radar. 371 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:21,319 We dropped the ball. I really think the families deserve that statement from them, 372 00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:23,480 that this guy was on our radar, we dropped the ball. I 373 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:27,000 don't think they're ready to do that yet, and I don't know why other 374 00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:32,480 than they're protecting their reputation. Yeah, the FBI seems to be having a 375 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,920 bit of a problem with transparency in this particular case, and I certainly hope 376 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:44,240 that they begin to become more transparent about it in the future. Next question 377 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,920 is from Heather, who says Alan Wade Wilmer Senior died at the end of 378 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,680 the same year the book was published. Is there any possibility Alan Wade Wilmer 379 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,839 Senior read your book and spooked. I'm going to I'm going to phrase this 380 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:03,440 in two different ways. I doubt he didn't look like the reading kind of 381 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:08,519 guy from the pictures I saw. He's not. I have started to go 382 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:12,480 through because I took pictures every time we did an event. I'm starting to 383 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,759 go through those pictures now to see if any if him or his brother were 384 00:30:17,839 --> 00:30:21,880 actually in the audience of any of our public events, because we had two 385 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,880 hundred people show up on some of these events. Yeah, I remember, 386 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,359 yeah, Yeah, I remember your event at the Yorktown Library that was a 387 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,759 sellout. Yeah. We took a lot of pictures of the audience because you 388 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,839 never know who might show up. I will say this, on several occasions, 389 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:40,079 the FBI has reached out to me and asked if I could get a 390 00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:44,880 list of everybody who's read my book. And Amazon doesn't give us that it's 391 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:51,440 sacred. It's sacred material for obvious reasons, and it's weird that they asked 392 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,400 me on two occasions for that, So clearly I think they they want to 393 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:02,839 check that avenue as well. Add something there. I don't know, let 394 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,480 me add something there if I may. I'm not sure that Wilmer has read 395 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,440 the book, but he has an extensive family of children and grandchildren. Now 396 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:18,960 his kids would be in their forties now and married, and they have kids 397 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,400 of their own, some of whom are in their twenties now. Yeah, 398 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,599 I don't think it's out of the question. And you guys did a great 399 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,799 job with the publicity when you and Victoria worked the media, and you went 400 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,799 out and you did book talks, you did book signings, you appeared in 401 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:41,640 a variety of places. There were a lot of articles written, in a 402 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,279 lot of media coverage in Virginia. Of course, you're talking about a Virginia 403 00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:51,359 case. I don't think it's out of the question that someone on the Northern 404 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,640 Neck became aware of the fact that there was a book about the Colonial Parkway 405 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,599 murders which was creating quite a splash in twenty seventeen book was published. I 406 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:06,400 don't think it's out of the question that someone said, have you looked at 407 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,079 this book and if you turn to page two O four, that's when you 408 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,240 tell the story about the waterman. Yeah. I wouldn't rule it out, 409 00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:16,559 Bill, I just don't want to sound too weak atistical to go, oh, 410 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,880 yeah, the murderer was keeping up on me. When I saw that 411 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,839 guy's pictures, my first thought was this guy's pro pretstcusy guy. I doubt 412 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:30,440 he did a lot of reading. He just didn't strike He personally doesn't strike 413 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:32,559 me as the kind of person that did a lot of reading. And I 414 00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:37,880 could be wrong. I could be forming an opinion based on a photograph. 415 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,079 I don't know. I will be shocked if that's the case. But at 416 00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:45,000 the same time, there's been a lot of shocks lately, so I'll take 417 00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:47,599 it. Bill. I'm going to switch up the order here real quick and 418 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,519 just cover all the Wilmer stuff all at once, and then I'll get to 419 00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,440 CPMK specific stuff. Sounds good, okay. Another gentleman with the name of 420 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,440 Blaine, who says great name, by the way, asks what was Wilmer's 421 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,359 initial response to police when he was observed cleaning and repairing the bed of his 422 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,880 truck. I don't have that information. I know that police were so concerned 423 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:16,319 that expedited getting the warrant because they were fearful he was destroying evidence. I 424 00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:22,119 don't know if he actually was aware that he was being watched. I suspect 425 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,880 he was. If he was doing this level of cleaning and attempting to purge 426 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,440 stuff, that certainly seems to me that he may have spotted a white van 427 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:37,119 up the road type thing. Okay, Tammy asks, do you know of 428 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:43,359 any of the places that Wilmer may have worked or docked out in Gloucester County 429 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,119 while he was living and working on his boat. I don't, and the 430 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,960 reason is I've pulled up on Google Earth and started looking at various docks where 431 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,279 waterman work, et cetera. The problem is I don't have an accurate map 432 00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:01,559 of that for the nineteen eighties, and things actually do change quite a bit 433 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:07,440 in that regard, so I really don't have that at this point in time. 434 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:10,599 I do know I've had several people tell me that he regularly docked in 435 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,719 Gloucester that I've had a couple of people reach out to me and let me 436 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,519 know that you actually addressed Julie's first question already, which is what type of 437 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:28,079 criminal record for petty or major crimes did Alan Wade Wilmer Senior have? Yeah, 438 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:32,000 but she also wants to know can you tell us more about various incidents 439 00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:37,719 of harassment on and off the Colonial Parkway in the area around the time of 440 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,599 these crimes. Well, I think Bill's probably addressed a lot of those. 441 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:47,760 I did get one interesting anecdotal story about Wilmer from someone just the other day, 442 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,760 and I'm not going to reveal who it is, but he said, 443 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,760 you know, I don't remember this, but my dad did. It was 444 00:34:54,039 --> 00:35:01,400 he was on a junior baseball team and Wilmer was there and drunk and was 445 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,800 so angry at the call so the umpire was making. He was climbing up 446 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,039 on the backstop. They had to pull him down, and he said. 447 00:35:09,039 --> 00:35:15,760 The general tone that everybody had in that area was you didn't if you could 448 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:22,360 avoid contact with the Wilmers, you did that. They were rowdy, boisterous, 449 00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:27,280 They were overly engaging. Shall I say? I would say aggressive was 450 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,239 the word that wasn't used, But that's the word I would use. Sounds 451 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,920 very right. Erica asks, do we know the identity of the second person 452 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:40,400 who was interviewed and polygraphed with Wilmer. No, I don't know, And 453 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:47,000 unfortunately IRV Wells has died because I think IRV Wells, honestly the tone I 454 00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:52,280 got with the interview, he always felt that this was his guy. And 455 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960 I think if you read page two O five and stuff, you get that 456 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:59,519 part of the book, you get the vibe that IRV Wells knew this was 457 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:05,719 his guy, and is polygrapher was telling him it wasn't Wish I knew Wish 458 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,079 I knew. Polygraphs don't clear anybody at this point. And so now I 459 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:15,840 think you've really got a question a lot of that. We have people who 460 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,239 have very obviously spent a lot of time on the case, and they have 461 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,719 a couple of different possible suspect and accomplice theories that we want to run past 462 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,960 you as well before we get into more case specific detail. So the first 463 00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:35,159 question from Katie is did Fred Atwell ever have any connection to a relationship with 464 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,760 Ellen Wade Wilmer that we know of? I don't know of any, and 465 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:44,239 that's a great question. It certainly needs to be explored. I think it's 466 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,719 a good question too. Continuing in that, Vain Laurie asks, do you 467 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:53,039 know if Wilmer had any connection to Ron Little or Steve Blackman? Again, 468 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:59,079 great questions. I have never seen anything in the research I've done on this, 469 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,639 or than my daughter Victoria's done on this, that showed a connection to 470 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,199 them. This is something we're I think all of us are looking into though, 471 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:14,840 because I'm actually starting to hear of some potential intersection between Alan Wade Wilmer 472 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:21,000 and Ron Little, which would center around the Tidewater area and Gloucester. So 473 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,679 we'll have to see how that plays out. That would be interesting. The 474 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:31,480 next two questions regard other notorious Virginia cold cases. Richard asks, might there 475 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:37,960 be any evidence that Wilmer was considered a suspect in the Shenandoah National Park crimes? 476 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,000 And he's referencing there the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Wine and in 477 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:45,280 Shenandoah in nineteen ninety six. For anybody who's not familiar, what do you 478 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:51,239 think, Blaine? The state police have fb have DNA from that crime scene. 479 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:58,639 While it was poorly handled by a park ranger who actually worked in the 480 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:05,280 Colonial Parkway at one point and it was mishandled, they do have DNA in 481 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,199 that case. And I would think, really, all it's got to happen 482 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,159 is a comparison. Now, has that happened? We are? I'm not 483 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,960 privy to it now, Bill, you maybe I don't. I'm not, 484 00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:21,840 And forgive me if I sound cynical, but I'll believe it when I see 485 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,719 it. The other ones got to be the Route twenty nine one, because 486 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,239 everybody highlights throughout twenty nine one and they go, could this be this? 487 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,239 I lived, and I live on not far from Route twenty nine. I 488 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,639 drove that road quite a bit in my life. I don't know if they're 489 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:43,199 there, but now what we have geographically, we know that the range that 490 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:49,800 these guys operated in was long. Okay, this was not everybody who's always 491 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,920 said, oh you got it, nor Phelps lower. It's not part of 492 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,559 the Colonial Park Grammars or oh you got to skip Ragged Island. That doesn't 493 00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:01,800 count guys. The map is big on this at this point, and these 494 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:07,760 guys traveled considerable distances. I'm not willing to say yes or no on that. 495 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,440 I think they would be stupid to not be checking it. And then 496 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,320 Blaine just tangentially related to Route twenty nine, but something that we talked about 497 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,280 a couple of weeks ago before all of this blew up, there is some 498 00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:24,079 theory that Rex Huerman, the Long Island serial killer suspect, might also be 499 00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:29,960 the Route twenty nine stuck or so you rolling your eyes. I'm curious what 500 00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:36,840 You're just curious what your thoughts are on it. The eye roll gives it 501 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,360 away. There's a few people out there with crackpot theories that have tried to 502 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,840 force them in and I'm not gonna I don't remember the woman's name, but 503 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:51,159 she's pushed this on me and got all upset when I didn't embrace it. 504 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,480 There's nothing that proves that. And I've actually had tips come in where I've 505 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,960 turned more of the Virginia State Police on the Round twenty nine killer that are 506 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,840 pretty good tips, and I've never heard back, but that's not uncommon. 507 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,400 When you turn in a tip to law enforcement. They don't call you up 508 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,960 and go it didn't work out, or it did work out. They just 509 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,400 thank you and move on. I don't know. I doubt it. I 510 00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:20,239 seriously doubt it. It just this person was the same person that raised this 511 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,639 with me, And if it's the same person raising you, connects this same 512 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:30,000 person to every unsolved serial killing case up and down the East Coast. So 513 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:35,440 that's their whole motive thing is if there's an unsolved crime, they're sure this 514 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,000 person is responsible, and I just don't subscribe to that. Show me the 515 00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:45,039 evidence our thoughts too. Let's get back to some case specific questions that people 516 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:50,639 just wanted clarification on. So the first question, and again we know that 517 00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:52,599 some of this you may not be aware of, and that's totally fine. 518 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:58,280 The question is what caliber was the gun that was used on Ragged Island? 519 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,960 And do we know if it matched any of the guns in Alan Wade Wilmer 520 00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:06,519 Senior's house. What I do know is they initially thought it was a forty 521 00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:09,239 four caliber. They're fairly convinced because the mutilation of the bullet, etc. 522 00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:14,760 And the size that it was a thirty eight caliber. What I don't know 523 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:22,239 was were any weapons recovered from Alan Wade Wilmer's possession. I have no idea. 524 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,119 I think it's a great question that the FBI, I'm sure should be 525 00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:30,880 taking a look at, as well as the Virginia State Police. But didn't 526 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:36,119 have they found a weapon? Can they match it up to the ballistics for 527 00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:39,679 that single bullet that was recovered? I don't know, Okay, And that 528 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,960 was from Charlie Jennifer asks, now that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior has been confirmed 529 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:51,239 to be the killer of David and Robin, are there any possible links between 530 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,960 him and Sammy Reider? It is interesting that reader died in nineteen eighty nine, 531 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,800 after the last of the Colonial Parkway murders. Perhaps they were a team 532 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:01,599 and his death is why the murders stopped. That's from Jennifer. That's a 533 00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:07,400 great question. I have never heard of Wilmer's name. In my discussions with 534 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,280 the Isle White Share former Isle White Sheriff on this case, at no point 535 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,480 did they bring up Wilmer's name, So I don't know if there's a connection 536 00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:21,079 there. I would certainly hope the authorities are taking a good look at It's 537 00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:27,440 a good question though. Now, Samuel Reader did put himself at the scene 538 00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:31,159 where Robin and David were killed, and he did admit I believe that he 539 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,159 went into the truck and I think stole money from David's Wallace. Yeah, 540 00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:38,920 I'm not mistaken. So he does put himself there, correct, Blane. 541 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,239 Yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean that he had anything to do with it. 542 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,559 It could be that he did exactly what he said he did and stole some 543 00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:54,760 cash and hooked around the truck. Yeah. Regged Island attracted a weird group 544 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,760 of people and still does from time to time. I've been down. There's 545 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:02,880 always a little creepy when I go, oh, tell tell that story that 546 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,920 when you were researching the book and you went down there and ran into a 547 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,840 cop. What he said to you it was, this will be offensive, 548 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,199 I'm sure to somebody. I couldn't find Ragged Island the first time I went 549 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:19,199 there, and I pulled over. There's a little memorial to like Vietnam soldiers 550 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,239 that's across the street. I didn't see the entrance to Dragged Down. I 551 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,599 pulled over there and was looking around, and I'm trying to figure out on 552 00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:30,800 my GPS where the hell that park is, because it's showing that I'm there, 553 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,400 but I don't see it. And a cop pulled up and he said, 554 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,960 you having car problems and I said, no, I'm looking for Ragged 555 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,400 Down. And he said, oh, you're here for a blowjob or for 556 00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:49,440 some weed. And I said I appreciate the offers either. And I said 557 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,960 why would you say that? And he goes, oh, it's a well 558 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:58,760 known area for homosexual activity and it's well known drug exchange area. And I 559 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,159 said, no, I'm doing a book. Can I explain to him I 560 00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:02,880 was doing? He showed me, all you're right across the street from it. 561 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,400 He's got to drive over there and go in, but he said, 562 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,440 this place has always had that reputation. It's just a creepy place, and 563 00:44:12,599 --> 00:44:16,159 that's always stuck with me. When I went there years ago with one of 564 00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:22,960 the investigators and they walked me through the crime scene or potential crime scene for 565 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,719 Robin and David. One of the striking things was even though this sandy parking 566 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,159 area, which appears in photographs and you talk about it in a special kind 567 00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:36,000 of evil, is actually quite close to the James River Bridge, which is 568 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:39,719 a long oh right next door here. But if you're on the bridge, 569 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:45,719 you can't see Ragged Island exactly because the structure of the bridge actually blocks your 570 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,719 view of the parking lot, so you wouldn't witness anything from up above, 571 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:57,639 and the traffic on that side of the bridge is driving away from Ragged Island, 572 00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:02,360 so unless you were in the past your seat and completely turned yourself around, 573 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,719 yeah, you would not see anything that was going on in that parking 574 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,480 area, despite the fact that it's quite close to this major bridge. Yeah. 575 00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:16,719 Yeah, Ragged Island is as a creepy place all together. And it 576 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,400 was funny because I talked with one of the family members who told me when 577 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,360 they went out there one time there was gunshots going. You could hear gunshots 578 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:30,280 in the area. Yeah, it's just not a place you want to go 579 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,960 after hours, not at all. I think we may need to do a 580 00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,239 speed round here real quick. Allison asks, is it true that Keith calls 581 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,639 car seat was all the way forward for a person around five foot five? 582 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,639 Keith was six feet And we know that Wilmer was short. We know that 583 00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:52,119 the car seat was all the way forward that I know how that it relates 584 00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:55,440 to the size of Wilmer. I haven't crunched it. A lot depends on 585 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:01,400 people's leg length to really determine that. And and I would imagine the FBI 586 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,880 should be taking a look at that, okay. Allison also asked, can 587 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,440 you confirm the fishing line was used to tie up Rebecca and Orcafee. What 588 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,320 I was told by IRV Wells, and I put this in the book was 589 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,960 it was a nautical line. And I think I actually put it in all 590 00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:23,039 caps in the book because IRV really highlighted that he indicated it was nautical line. 591 00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:28,639 Now, I don't know. I have seen the crime scene photographs. 592 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:32,320 It's very hard to tell from those crime scene photographs what type of line it 593 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:38,360 is, I'll add I'm highly confident it was not fishing line. The rope 594 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,599 is larger than that. It is the kind of rope that is used on 595 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:49,199 a boat. But I believe it's a larger diameter and it is not fishing 596 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,639 line to my eye, yeah, fishing line. You're looking at a hundred 597 00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:54,440 even one hundred and thirty pound test. I think you're going to be having 598 00:46:54,440 --> 00:47:00,239 a hard time strangling somebody with it. The line is visible as well in 599 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,199 the crime scene photographs, so I agree with Bill. I think it's a 600 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,559 nautical line, but I don't know any of the details me on that, 601 00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:12,039 and the FBI should still have that evidence. This may involve a little bit 602 00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:15,239 of gruesome speculation here blamed, but Haley wants to know where do you think 603 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,840 Keith and Sandy were disposed of? Are they on the water or on the 604 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:27,119 on the land. I firmly believe at this point that they were intercepted on 605 00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:32,239 the land on the way back to Cassandra's house, and given the implication of 606 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:37,880 Wilmer and his use of a boat, I believe that they were deposited somewhere. 607 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:44,199 I don't think they were alive at all when the police were watching the 608 00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:47,440 Wilmers. I don't think they were tied up somewhere being held captive. That 609 00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,280 isn't a trade of the Colonial Parkway murderer. We just he wasn't that kind 610 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:59,199 of killer. I think this is an instance where they were killed and their 611 00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:02,840 bodies were did somewhere in the water, I believe. Now bear in mind 612 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:09,679 the FBI did aerial searches water searches of the York River, but these guys 613 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,199 operated all the way up through the Northern Neck, which is up to the 614 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,920 Rapahannock, where they may have dumped the bodies or depositive bodies where he may 615 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,199 have dumped them. I don't know. I honestly have no IDEA question from 616 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:30,199 Charlie, are you aware if the FBI has surveillance images of the areas around 617 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:36,800 Camp Perry, Cheta Manx or the Naval Weapons Station. I have no idea 618 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:42,400 if the FBAI does have images of that. I was told years ago by 619 00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:50,199 a well informed law enforcement officer that they actually did seek out photographs of this 620 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,480 type. And actually I heard a crazy story, and I don't know if 621 00:48:53,480 --> 00:49:00,239 it's true or not that they actually sought satellite imagery of Big they actually requested 622 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,679 it from the Russians, but I don't know if they ever got it. 623 00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:08,320 No, they didn't get it, but they asked the Russian well, they 624 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,679 asked the Russians. During Cold War, IRV told me his stories and we 625 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,800 reached out to the Russians and asked them for spy images of Camp Perry because 626 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,000 they may have been photographing at the time the murders took place. And they 627 00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:28,840 never got those images because nineteen eighties, it's Cold War and the endea of 628 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,960 the Russian spine on Camp Perry and then us going to them and saying that 629 00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:37,320 is totally blowing my mind a little bit. Camp Piri. I mean, 630 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,840 it's well known, it's the CIA, and you've also got a nuclear weapons 631 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,960 storage facility up in that area at the naval base, and yeah, that 632 00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:52,559 whole area was under surveillance, I am sure by the Russians. Last question, 633 00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:57,320 now that all of this new information has come to light over the last 634 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,960 twenty one days, can we expect second edition of a Special Kind of Evil? 635 00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:06,760 At How are you going to integrate all this information into the book. 636 00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:12,519 My publishers asked me to write a new epilogue and follow up chapter to the 637 00:50:12,559 --> 00:50:15,199 book. I've told them I think it's a little early still, and a 638 00:50:15,199 --> 00:50:19,960 lot of those dependent on us getting information. So far, I'm being stonewalled 639 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:27,519 almost everywhere. I'm getting tangible information that can be an implication that they're working 640 00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:30,760 the case so actively that they don't want the information out there, or that 641 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,639 they don't want it out there because it's going to be embarrassing to them one 642 00:50:35,639 --> 00:50:38,400 way or the other. I'm going to continue my efforts, and I'm using 643 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:45,639 every little backdoor I know to get information from various sources, and I don't 644 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:51,239 usually reveal how I do that, but you'll see the end results of that. 645 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,840 And I got a rust records for these guys, so that's a good 646 00:50:53,920 --> 00:51:00,639 start. And I'm talking to people up in Lancaster and they're One clerk said 647 00:51:00,679 --> 00:51:01,880 she was going to buy the book, so I thought that was good. 648 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,280 Will you come back and talk with us again as the case unfolds, Absolutely, 649 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,239 anytime you guys want me back. My goal is not to sell books, 650 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,280 because the books have already sold. My goal is solve this case for 651 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:21,159 the families. I have deep connection with several of the family members and correspond 652 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,039 with them, and we just want to see these things brought to justice. 653 00:51:24,159 --> 00:51:28,679 So that's where I'm at. Blaine. Thank you for all of your hard 654 00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:30,719 work and your advocacy on this case. We really appreciate it, and we 655 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,159 appreciate you taking the time to come on mind over Murder today. No, 656 00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:37,599 no problem, it's great coming out. Thanks for having me that is going 657 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:40,679 to do it for this episode of mind of Murder. Thank you so much 658 00:51:40,679 --> 00:51:53,960 for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 659 00:51:54,079 --> 00:52:00,239 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producer are Bill Thomas and 660 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:06,519 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 661 00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:12,000 by Kevin mcleoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 662 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,440 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 663 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:21,039 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 664 00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:24,920 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 665 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,679 for listening to mind Over Murder.