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Hey, how are you come on
over here under the shade of this tree

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and let's talk a little bit.
Yeah, here in northern California, we're

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cooking. A lot of the United
States is in the one hundred degree fahrenheit

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temperatures and we're getting it. We're
getting blasted. We have a week of

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this one hundred plus degree heat.
And my guest today, Luke Caverns,

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is in Austin and he told me
that the temperatures have been about one hundred

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and five fahrenheit for the last few
weeks. Boy, you know, one

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or two days of scorching heat is
acceptable, but when it gets to be

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more than a week, two weeks. I've talked to some friends in I

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think it's in Arkansas, and they've
been having one hundred degree heat for over

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a month and with no relief.
It was like, that is that's terrible.

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So, you know, when the
environmentalists pipe up and say, hey,

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this is global warming, pay attention
because this is getting out of hand,

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and this is what's kind of scary. They're saying to us that this

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may be typical going forward, This
may be typical summers one hundred degree hundred

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and five hundred and ten. Now
I heard the other day from a friend,

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and I'm trying to fallacate this that
in Saudi Arabia their temperatures have been

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one hundred and twenty four fahrenheit.
That is, that is killer heat.

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And I get. I have a
great story when I was in Vegas at

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a conference. This is probably I
want to say, ten years ago.

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It's a dry heat. It's not
a humid there's no humidity. It's dry

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heat, dry desert heat. And
I was walking out of a casino,

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I think it was a Treasure Island, and I wanted to cross the street.

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I was on the Strip, main
Strip. I wanted to cross the

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street. So I had shoes that
had crape soles, you know, really

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kind of a soft rubber sole because
I was on my feet. I purchased

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them because I was on my feet
for hours and I wanted to be comfortable.

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I wanted this to be I didn't
want to take a beating. So

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but as I was crossing the street, I noticed that the road was pulling

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at me, the asphalt road.
As I lifted my legs to move forward,

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my feet were stuck like there was
glue on my shoe. And as

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I crossed over to the other side
of the sidewalk. I lifted up my

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shoe to look this, and it
was melted. The heat was so intense.

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And I looked up at this time, when I was close to another

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casino, I looked up and they
had a big temperature gage. It was

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one hundred and fifteen and it was
melting my shoes. Well, Jesus Christ,

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I can't imagine what what happened to
us physically. If you were in

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one hundred and twenty four degree heat, what is projected to have been many,

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many days, perhaps longer, of
intense heat. That's like our Mojave

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Desert in California. They get up
to one hundred and twenty one hundred and

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you know, thirty on its extreme
heat. But if we get to the

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point where we're struggling and we're getting
one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty

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degree heat, people have to wake
up, you know, if that's that

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that kills people. I mean,
one hundred degree heat can really affect older

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people who can't perspire quite the same
as we do because their body has aged

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and they don't have the same sweat
ducks and so forth and so on.

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If we are dealing with one hundred
and twenty four degree heat. We're going

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to be in trouble. So,
oh boy, let's hope that that doesn't

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happen. I don't know that's even
to contemplate. That is kind of scary.

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So I hope you're not suffering too
much right now. Today. Our

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guest is Luke Caverns. He is
kind of the new rock star. He's

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an anthropologist who's on Facebook. He's
heavy on the social media side. You

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can see him on YouTube. He
did a fantastic program on this Joe Rogan

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debate with the archaeologist Flint Dibble and
Graham Hancock. His review of it from

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an academic side was very favorable to
the alternative side. And you know,

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it's funny if you use the term
pseudo science, pseudo archaeology, pseudo information,

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the new more term is alternative history. And I don't even think it

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should be that. I didn't have
a chance to see the Joe Rogan program,

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but you know, it was four
hours, four hour podcast, and

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a lot of people came away disappointed. I didn't want to see it because

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I know Graham personally. I don't
think he needs to make a claim for

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his research and his claim for his
writing. I think it stands on its

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own. I think Dibble and I
heard a little bit about this. I

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think Dibble made some points that apparently
were good. But if you haven't seen

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this, go to YouTube, go
to just go to look Caverns and you'll

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see it up on top there.
It's the Joe Rogan review and a lot

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of people have reviewed it. I
didn't think again that Graham needed to do

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it, but he feels that he's
being persecuted. And we've talked many tests

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on this program about him on Netflix
and how the Association of Archaeologists just had

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to fit call him a racist,
call him out of his mind and a

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problem child, and they're just threatened. And so a lot of our talk

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today might talk with Luke Caverns revolves
around what is the status as an anthropologist

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fresh degree? I think a couple
of years ago he got it, and

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what that means, what he was
taught in college, what he was directed

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to comprehend as an anthropologist. It's
pretty sad. And I know this because

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I have a cousin who's an anthropologist. I've talked to him many times about

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this. It's like books that were
written one hundred and fifty years ago.

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Nothing's updated. As shocking as it
appears. A lot of the discussion has

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to do with known sites. They
don't discuss go Beckley Tepe, some of

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the new Mayan and Egyptian discoveries,
and some of the new research by independent

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scholars. And this is a continual
problem. Now the impasse is closing because

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if this scientific data is published by
peer reviewed groups, then that data typically

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gets accepted. But even in the
face of peer reviews, topics like these

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Sphinx and the Giza Plateau are still
thought to be the work of a known

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pharaoh, Kufu, and that's not
the case. And we know from Robert

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Schock, doctor Robert Shock, that
the Sphinx was not carved originally in any

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times period that we're familiar with.
It's probably twelve thousand hour older. And

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the head and the repairs were done
by the pharaohs because as the thing was,

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you know, remember the whole story
of repurposing, someone decided to make

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the head of the sphinx a pharaoh
and fix the body because they were repurposing

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the sphinx for that dynastic period.
And we've had doctor Karacuni blow us away

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with her assessment that this was a
regular practice. As crazy as that sounds,

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this was a regular practice. So
today my guest is Luke Caverns and

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we're talking about his belief his understandings
for history, both alternative and academic.

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We have our last tour coming up
this year. It's our Sacred Temples of

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Yucatan, Mexico. It's November eighth
through the seventeenth, and I have our

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host and our guide, Mimo Gonzales
with us talk a little bit about this

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upcoming tour. Mimo has been with
me for a number of years. We're

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gonna be going to ek Baalam is
one of our locations and they've done some

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recent excavations there and what will we
see there that's that's unique. Yeah,

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they have been doing a very interesting
research restoration and the important mind sights,

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including balm Ekbalam is one of the
places we went enjoyed the most because it

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has some unique items. As you
said, first of all, like it.

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It's still not a very touristic place. Yeah, we're allowed to walk

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on most of the ancient constructions down
there, and as you imagine, from

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the top of most of these temples. We have beautiful v you all right

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again. It's November eighth to the
seventeenth of this year. Our host and

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tour guide is Mimo Gonzalez. For
more information, go to Earthancients dot com

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forward slash tours and you'll see all
the itinerary. It's a short program.

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It's one week. We do a
lot of pyramid climbs and it's going to

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be a perfect time to be there
because the weather is great and it's very

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very reasonable. So again a Sacred
Pyramid Tour November eighth through the seventeenth of

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this year. Memo will look forward
to seeing you. Yeah, I mean

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too. Cheers, take care for
your soon. I've been talking for a

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while now about the next generation of
archaeologist anthropologists who are coming around, and

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I have been predicting for a while
that some kid in an MIT platform is

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going to create a scanning device that
can scan these ancient temples, pyramids and

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whatever and pull a whole new level
of content out. But my guest today

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is Luke Caverns. He is an
anthropologist. He's kind of the next trend.

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If you haven't heard about him,
he's got a real huge following on

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social media. YouTube channel, Facebook, Instagram, and some of his recent

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commentaries on people like Graham, Hancock
and Rogan's program where he had a Hancock

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and the archaeologist Flint on the program. I've been kind of unique and refreshing,

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so I wanted to have him on
the program. We have him here

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today. He's coming to us from
Texas. So Hey, Luke, great

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to have you on the program.
Hey cliff Man, thank you so much

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for having me. I have seen
your podcast on Spotify the entire time I've

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had Spotify. Just I mean,
you're you're a staple in this in this

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ancient history ancient mystery world. Everybody's
seen Earth ancients and uh, it's it's

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a pleasure to be on. Thank
you, Hey, thanks for joining me.

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First of all, I want to
ask you, you know, I'm

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I'm kind of a history buff and
I have been for years, you know,

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picking up traditional books and so forth
and so on. I didn't take

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the step that you did, which
is actually go to school, talk a

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little bit about your interest and why
you would proceed and get your credential as

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an anthropologist. So really, what
made me actually pursue anthropology and get my

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degree was not because I wanted to
pursue the career of a traditional anthropologist,

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but more so because I couldn't pass
my business marketing classes. I hated them.

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I didn't have the attention span to
study things that I didn't care about,

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and I didn't have the quote unquote
discipline to do that, even though

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I don't really think that's discipline.
I just didn't want to do things I

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didn't want to do. So I
got tired of wasting money on that and

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I just I told my girlfriend at
the time, who's my wife now,

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that I didn't know what was going
to happen if I made this decision,

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but I need to study anthropology because
it's the only thing I like. And

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that was two and a half years
in the school that I changed. You

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know, Oh, my guy,
you were mid your mid stream and you

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you did a reverse. Okay,
yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah,

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I took a took a hard reverse. And actually what caused that was

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I was obsessed with ancient history from
the time that I was a little kid.

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My first two my first couple of
memories are I always grew up with

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my dad. Every so often,
when we'd be on a road trip,

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I would ask him, you know, Okay, well, tell me more

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about Grandpa. I never knew my
dad's dad. He died when my dad

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was younger than me, but he
was he was the last of a lineage

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of explorers over the course of three
generations, going back to the eighteen hundreds.

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And I would just ask my dad
to tell me everything he knew.

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And my dad didn't know a lot
either. This is back in the this

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is from the early sixties. It
ended in sixty These string of explorations and

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expeditions ended in nineteen sixty two,
but they began in the eighteen eighties.

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And and so you know, my
dad didn't know a lot about it,

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but he would kind of grow up
telling me some of these stories. Then

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on my mom's side of the family, my grandpa he was a he was

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a traveling missionary, but he was
also interested in the ancient world of the

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Bible, and so he would teach
me. You know, I just wanted

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to know more about you know,
when we would go to Sunday service.

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He would take me to dairy Queen
afterwards, and I'd sit down and just

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ask him about you know, well, tell me more about the people's lives

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in the Bible. I want to
know more about that what was the world

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like that they lived in? And
then another one of my earliest memories is

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watching the movie Troy when I wasn't
allowed to and and I ended up seeing

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you know, I couldn't read that
well, but I could read tr tr

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o Y And I found that in
this book called Lost Cities that my grandpa

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on my mom's side had, and
so he would read me that book.

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I eventually stole it and I never
gave it back, and it's somewhere on

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this bookshelf. And so so I
say that to say that was kind of

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that pushed me down the path of
always being in ancient history and as a

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kid, always thinking about, well, what what's the world what are these

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people's actual lives like? When I'm
at you know, Sunday school listening to

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the sermon, I'm thinking like,
okay, what does that world actually look

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like? And I didn't realize that
was that was anthropology even a little kid,

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And so that had always been my
interest, but I had always pushed

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it to the back of my mind
because it didn't seem realistic. And so

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I was hating marketing, I was
hating my job. I didn't like anything

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that I was doing, and I
was, I was my girlfriend and I

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we were sitting down and we watched
this movie called The Lost City of z

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and essentially it's about Percy Fawcett really
being discontented with his you know, Western

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culture, European life, and all
these aristocratic people that looked down on him,

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and he found a purpose in pursuing
anthropology, archaeology explorations studying people of

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South America. And that movie resonated
with me so much that I did a

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one eighty in my life immediately afterwards. And so I changed my changed my

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major in college and decided to pursue
anthropology. Just I didn't know where it

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was going to go. And eventually
I took the creative route and making videos

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and got into education entertainment, and
then I was able to fund my own

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excursions, of which I've done a
few, just my own down in Central

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America and Mexico, and that's where
I'm at. Now. That's very cool.

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When you got out of school with
your credential, did they kind of

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leave an impression that the professors and
the teachers and they and the curriculum that

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you needed to follow a certain path. Well, I'll say that in my

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anthropology classes, No, because I
actually did everything online, so it was

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not as personable. I was actually
towards the end of college, I was

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just following my girlfriend and my wife
around that whatever school she was at,

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I was there taking online classes.
And then she got into dental school here

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in San Antonio, so I moved
here and then finished up school online.

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So I didn't really have like much
of a relationship with my teachers in person.

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But I will say that there was
some curriculum and some sentiments that were

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given to us that I thought were
that I thought were definitely agenda driven in

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some way. You know, talk
about that because this is what makes your

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point of view so interesting. You're
an academic, I mean, you can't

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get away from that. Now You're
like, Okay, man, I'm graduated,

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I'm an anthropologist. You have a
certain focal point to upheld. But

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and we have people on our show, like our own Genda, who's a

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field archaeologist. She although she had
this training, she's kind of going,

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hmm, there's more to this than
just the books I've read, the classes

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I've taken, and the impressions I've
gotten from these professors. So talk a

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little bit about what you were left
with and where you're at now. Yeah.

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Well, okay, so there's two
instances that really come to mind.

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I guess I'll tell them in chronological
order. So my very first semester in

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anthropology, you know, I had
classes that were basically, you know,

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so you had to take origins of
civilization, so you know, I had

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to begin with ancient China, Ancient
Egypt, and Mesopotamia. Those were really

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fun, but it's just your it's
your ordinary explanation of those timelines, and

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you know the historicity of them.
It didn't really have anything to do with

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the pyramids or anything as far as
archaeology. It was mostly just history,

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I guess, although the history is
derived from the archaeology whatever that. I

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remember there being a question on one
of these quizes. There are about ten

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questions, but the overall gist of
it, and I can quote one directly,

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is the question was asking me something
along the lines of something along the

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lines of like, how do you
how do you determine a person's ethnicity,

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because you know, ancient history has
a lot to do with different ethnicities and

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everything. It was asked me,
how do you determine someone's ethnicity. And

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although this sudden thing to do necessarily
directly with archaeology, it kind of it

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kind of tipped me off to something. I was like, wait, this

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is what I'm being taught. So
I answer the question with, you know,

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whatever makes most sense to me.
Ethnicity has a lot to do with

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where you're born, has lots do
you know where you're born, the culture

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that's around you, this, that, and the other, and then the

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answer and then I got the answer
wrong and it said the correct answer was

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was actually the most ridiculous answer or
answer choice on there, and it said

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ethnicity, like beauty is often in
the eyes of the beholder. Whoa I

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was paying to learn that, I
swear, I swear I have a picture

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somewhere from maybe twenty nineteen from that
and that was the correct answer. And

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there were a lot of things like
that throughout my education where I was like,

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this is well, I mean,
really, this is what I'm being

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taught. Another instance was one of
the lecture slides. I have a photo

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of this somewhere. One of the
lecture slides was when I was taking in

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archaeology course, so you know,
I had I had like four major courses

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on archaeology, and there was one
of them where there was a couple of

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lecture slides that were covering pseudo archaeology, and so it was Graham Hancock and

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I found I found it just it
was funny and it was super fascinating.

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And granted I had a professor who
she was pretty nice and uh, but

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yeah, you know, they we
poked fun I say we, but the

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class poked fun at Graham Hancock,
Billy Carson. You know, I don't

254
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align very much with Billy Carson,
but you know, they poked fun that

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a lot of the heads of pseudo
archaeology and definitely made it known that that

256
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is not what they were teaching in
school. But I, you know,

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having not really had it in person
relationship with any of my professors, there

258
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wasn't really a situation where you have
those one on one conversations where you get

259
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the gist that they're trying to push
you in a certain direction, if that

260
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makes sense, at least in a
way that's not subtle, if that makes

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sense. But those are two in
and says I can really think of over

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the course of my three years that
I took to get my anthropology degree,

263
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Well, are you thinking of doing
field research at all. I mean,

264
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because I like what you were just
saying, you're kind of like a educational

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artist. I can't remember the total
name of it, but yeah, like

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education entertainment, education entertainment. So
that's very powerful. But is that where

267
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you kind of want to sit and
then maybe do some tours and lectures.

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Is that where you see yourself in
the future or are you going to do

269
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the hardcore grunt work and sign up
to do some excavations in Chitchitza or Guatemala

270
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at Chiopis or something. Yeah.
Yeah, Well doctor Barnhart he thinks that.

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He thinks that field work is absolutely
necessary for me. And so I

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told my wife when she graduates from
dental school, I'm taking I'm taking a

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couple of years off from working my
day job. I'm gonna pursue, you

274
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know, trying to build this you
know, education entertainment business. But also

275
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I need time to go do field
work. And so where I think I'm

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gonna go is bevar which bvar Blize
Valley Archaeological Reconnaissance Project, and they that's

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actually the area where doctor Barnheart discovered
his lost city mash Nah. I don't

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know if he's talked about that on
this podcast. Maybe he has, he

279
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has, he has. I have
not seen pictures of it, though I

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think it's fairly recent. It's Yeah, it's really hard to find photos of

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these. I think he's got some
photos from the nineties, but I don't

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know that they're really well published.
But I've been telling him when I get

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down to Belize, I'm gonna go
somehow, I'm gonna find I'm gonna walk

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my way back to that city.
I don't think. I don't think anyone's

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been there in ten years. Honestly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, so

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so Bvar. It's either run by
or somebody who's very influential over there is

287
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.319
a guy named doctor Jamie Awi,
and he's already told me, you know,

288
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the door's open. When I'm ready
to go down there some summer to

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work for a month or two months
on one of the projects that's down there,

290
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then then yes, I'm definitely gonna
do that. But really my overall

291
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.279
goal is I want to you know, if you're not going to be a

292
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traditional anthropologist working for a for a
university, you got to make money somehow,

293
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which kind of means being an entrepreneur. So you know, I want

294
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to keep on putting out videos and
doing online lectures and talking about these topics.

295
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I'm also working on a podcast right
now called Temple Talk, and I'm

296
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just slowly assembling some some episodes and
then keep doing lectures in person and then

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eventually, you know, right now
I'm doing tours through my Exploration Center,

298
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:48.839
post you tours through ADEPT Expeditions A
then you know, I have maybe five

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ten years from now, maybe one
day I'll have my own business leading tours.

300
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I don't know where, but you
know, maybe even doing like adventure

301
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tours that are really accessible where it's
not like a luxury tour. It's more

302
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of like a you know, exploration
tour where we're sleeping in a box,

303
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you know, but everyone can come, you know, something like that.

304
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I think that's kind of missing from
the market. And then but yeah,

305
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as far as hard research, I
think that I think that I want to

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eventually launch when I have the money
to do it and I can also crowdfund

307
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these things. I want to launch
real expeditions into the lock and Down Jungle,

308
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the Potent Jungle, the pretend that's
where Colack Mule and El Mirador are.

309
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:40.759
Well yeah, but yeah, so
the Pten Jungle, the Belize,

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the Belize Maya Mountains. I want
to go what Themala? It sounds like

311
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.279
you, you know, I I
haven't been to Guatemala. I have been.

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I've been all around Guatemala. What's
funny is I kind of visited all

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the Maya sites backwards. I did
almost every major Maya site other than t

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Call and chichen Itza first. So
I just saw I just saw Chichenitza,

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00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.880
and which is crazy. I've only
been traveling down there for three or four

316
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.880
years now, and I'm about to
mark off every city in the next by

317
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:11.400
the end of By the end of
twenty twenty five, I'll have been to

318
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:17.559
every major Maya city. Yeah,
we like talking about that offline. Chichenita

319
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is kind of like a zoo now
Yeah, yeah, touch anything. It's

320
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all roped off. It's really sad. Yeah. If whoever's listening to this,

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if you're thinking about going to the
Maya world, go to Quintana Row.

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That's what I would do. I
would go. I would go see

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Tuloom and then I would go see
uh Muyil and Koba. Those are yeah,

324
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those are some great sites. I
mean, Cooba is getting pretty big.

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00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.480
One of the things that I don't
love about some of these Maya sites

326
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when you visit them is how heavily
landscaped it is when they take away all

327
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.640
the trees and it feels like you're
not even standing in the environment that that

328
00:26:53.720 --> 00:27:00.599
it would have really been like it
Sometimes are so arid and dry. Bobo's

329
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.880
huge, though, it's like you've
got to take a bike to ride.

330
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.599
Oh yeah, and it's such a
tourist trap. Now it's right next to

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00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.079
you know, it's easy to get
to from Cancun. So I would do

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Moui. I would do mu Yiel. If anybody's wanting to go to near

333
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.160
Cancun, Muyiel you have, you
get you get to walk on these I

334
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.000
don't know if you get, but
there's these board planks that go in the

335
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.920
swamps and the jungle around the city, and you get this feel that you're

336
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:30.160
you know, in this you're in
this wild, ancient place. It doesn't

337
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:34.319
feel so manicured that you feel disconnected
from it. You know. Yeah,

338
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:40.640
let me ask you and then we
want to move on. Uh. Have

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you met anyone else that is a
young graduate of anthropology and do you get

340
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a sense of their opinions? Of
the so called pseudo sciences, and I

341
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don't really, I do not want
to continue using that language. I want

342
00:27:55.240 --> 00:28:02.400
to use an alternative view of history, like a Graham Hancock or are you

343
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:07.000
familiar with Michael Kremo. He wrote
Forbidden Archaeology is a book as big as

344
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:11.559
a Bible. It's like that I've
heard the name, but not gone down

345
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:17.559
the rabbit hole. Well, he
literally has research from around the world of

346
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:22.519
evidence of extremely old human skeletal remains
and artifacts. You know, I mean,

347
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.599
he found a skeleton of a Homo
sapien sapient that's a million years old,

348
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:33.880
and he documents this as a research
investigator, and it's so far away

349
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:42.519
from traditional thought that it spooks academics. And he's you know, he's His

350
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:48.440
work is referenced by everyone from Hancock
to Beaval to Robert Schock and so on.

351
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:55.240
But I mean, getting back to
the thought of others who are freshly

352
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:03.000
graduates, what do you feel,
well, your perspective is compared to because

353
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:17.319
you actually have videos comparing Hancock to
Flint Dibble in this Rogan debate. Yeah,

354
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:18.839
well, you know, as far
as people who are my age,

355
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:25.720
again, I did anthropology online and
so I didn't really have much of a

356
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.799
connection to anybody that I graduated with
or went to school with. Ye.

357
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.039
But I will say as far as
other people who are young, you know,

358
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:40.480
I guess around my age, the
only people I know that have who

359
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.880
have degrees in anthropology that around my
age kind of doing what I'm doing,

360
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.000
are people who are very anti pseudo
archaeology. You know. I think that

361
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:55.240
people love to pick teams, and
it seems like, yeah, it seems

362
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.279
like it's becoming more and more tribal, and it's kind of a trend.

363
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.680
I don't know. I feel like
for the last I don't know, let's

364
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:08.880
say twenty five years since The Magical
Egypt John Anthony West, or maybe it's

365
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:14.039
thirty years now since since his documentary
came out, and it seems like the

366
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.319
people on on the alternative side have
been putting out media becoming more and more

367
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.799
popular. The other side is starting
to put out media now too, so

368
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:25.839
it's becoming kind of tribal, and
there are some young guys on that side

369
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:33.880
that are very anti pseudo archaeology and
are really at I think I think that

370
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.839
they're way too harsh in the way
that in the way that some of them

371
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.839
speak. But I don't know anybody
around my age that's kind of finds themselves

372
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:48.440
where I'm at. Where where I'm
kind of I'm kind of friends with people

373
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.839
on both sides, and I don't
really care to pick a fight with anybody

374
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.960
because it's all we're all just we're
all obsessed and theorizing about people that died

375
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:03.799
thousands of years ago. It's you
know, my view on ancient history should

376
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.559
not make somebody upset, you know. Yeah, And that's kind of where

377
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.279
I'm at. I just refuse to
engage in it and become toxic. But

378
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:17.240
to answer your question, I don't
know anybody else in my shoes that's quite

379
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:21.039
doing what I'm doing. They're either
one side or the other. Yeah,

380
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:22.720
what do you think of Graham Hancock? And by the way, on the

381
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.519
second part of that, did you
have a chance to see Ancient Apocalypse on

382
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.519
Netflix? I did. I watched
Ancient Apocalypse. What was your opinion?

383
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.039
I thought it was pretty good.
I mean I could tell that I wish

384
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:40.039
that the production style was different.
It felt very Uh, I don't know,

385
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:42.359
I think it. I think it. I think it felt a bit

386
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.839
ancient Aliens to me. Oh,
I didn't want to say that. I

387
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.559
thought, yeah, I felt that
you might be saying that. But because

388
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.119
that's a that's a huge departure.
Ancient aliens is so far to the other

389
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:59.240
side it is, it's not yeah, it's not Graham Hancock and ancient Aliens.

390
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.279
Guys don't have much in common at
all. But to people on the

391
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.920
other side, they group everyone together. But you know, you have you

392
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.400
have I don't know Graham, you
have Graham Hancock here, Billy Carson here,

393
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.319
and ancient aliens over here or you
know it just there is a wide

394
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:20.359
spectrum on the on the alt community. You know, you have people who

395
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.319
are extremely I would say that I'm
you know, I dip my toes in

396
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:29.240
the alt community. I see things
that are that I think that traditional academia's

397
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.240
explanations for it don't make sense,
or I think that sometimes they're lazy explanations

398
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:36.319
or their explanations that are like,
well, we can't come up with a

399
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:37.839
great explanation for that, so let's
kind of just ignore it. But let

400
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.759
me just ask you real quickly,
yeah, because that the problem. Like,

401
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:45.079
as an example, his very first
episode was ganon Penang, this very

402
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:52.200
old structure that is believed now to
be one of the earliest pyramids pyramid type

403
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:55.519
structures. Sure. I think the
problem is that the dates are so extreme.

404
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.559
I mean a conservative date for that
place is twenty thousand years ago.

405
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:07.519
Wow, that's mind blowing to the
general consensus. And I think it's just

406
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:12.839
that they can't And I'm really curious
if your education is that you are saying

407
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:17.200
there's a hard stop at this date
and anything after that is hunters and gatherers.

408
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.279
That's don't you think that might be
the problem is that the education is

409
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.160
saying you're not allowed to go beyond
this, you cannot free think this,

410
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.359
or you're not part of the group. Yeah, that's interesting that you say

411
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:36.680
that. Okay, so you know, I don't have an advanced degree in

412
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:42.319
anthropology, but I want you know, it makes me think in my education,

413
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.400
we never really the idea that there
was even anything beyond you know,

414
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:52.480
six thousand years ago beginning of Mesopotamia
was never introduced. It wasn't even something

415
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:57.359
that you would have thought about in
the education, if that makes sense.

416
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:00.160
You know, it wasn't like when
they taught when they said, okay,

417
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:07.559
you know, civilization begins in Mesopotamia
around four thousand BC. Oh, there's

418
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.239
nothing beyond that. It's like you
wouldn't even realize to think civilization might go

419
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.039
beyond that. Well, that's what
I'm saying. I'm saying, there's this

420
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.280
hard stop. Sure, sure,
yeah, it's not even acknowledged. Yeah,

421
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:22.840
all the books say, all the
ancient professors say, there's nothing before,

422
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.960
and we're not going to consider anything
else because that's just the way Earth

423
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.400
is, you know. Yeah,
yeah, well I thought it was.

424
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:32.599
I thought it was so interesting.
And it's probably because the curriculum is outdated.

425
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.400
But as I was going through,
you know, my studies of ancient

426
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:44.440
culture in college, which are you
know, it's so you know, I

427
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.719
would learn in one semester, I
would learn about ten different ancient cultures.

428
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.000
So it's like the most surface level. When it came to Egypt, I

429
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.599
already knew the answers to everything.
You know, it wasn't it wasn't anything

430
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.639
that was that was really overly in
depth. But I did find it interesting

431
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:06.400
that we didn't even talk about the
possibility of anything before four thousand BC.

432
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:10.119
Nothing, It wasn't mentioned, There
was no you know, my professor didn't

433
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.599
throw in a tidbit of like,
oh, by the way, here's go

434
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.039
Beckley Teppe. This is really cool. This is ten thousand years ago or

435
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.920
twelve was it twenty thousand plus?
Yeah? Yeah, And you know,

436
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.559
there was no mention of, oh
oh hey, look at this, this

437
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:29.760
is pretty interesting. And then we
have little dots of evidence of civilization growing

438
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.440
all the way from Go Beckley Teppe, you know, to Mesopotamia over the

439
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.960
course of this six thousand years or
so. No mention of it at all,

440
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:44.400
and kind of scary for you though, if you're if Go Beckley Teppy

441
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:51.239
is not mentioned in a current anthropology
course, and I don't even know if

442
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.320
Robert Sharks considered a legitimate scientist,
even though he's a teacher at Boston College.

443
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:01.599
The sphinx question of it being redated, if that's not being brought up,

444
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.960
because that's so much in people's faces, now, that's kind of that's

445
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.400
kind of scary, isn't it.
Yeah, well, yeah, I don't

446
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:17.000
know. Looking back, I wish
that I had actually gotten my degree in

447
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:20.960
person, because I feel like I
would have gotten a more visceral understanding of

448
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.559
where my professors were coming from or
what their viewpoint were on things. And

449
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:28.719
I think that maybe it's because I
took my classes online that I got this

450
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:35.679
like surface level you know, anthropology. But yeah, no, Yeah,

451
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.840
it felt it felt very just.
I was getting what was acceptable and I

452
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:46.000
was getting whatevery. You know,
everybody on the planet agrees that civilization existed

453
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:51.440
in four thousand BC. So if
there's any disagreement on anything, you don't

454
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.280
hear about it in college. That's
kind of what it That's kind of what

455
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:57.320
my curriculum. You know, if
it's controversial, we don't talk about it.

456
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:02.960
That's kind of what my entire education
felt like. Wow. Yeah,

457
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.199
and I thought it would have been
interesting. I would actually preferred to hear

458
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.199
this. I would have thought it'd
be really cool for my professor. I

459
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.199
thought it would I think this would
be engaging too for my professor to bring

460
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:20.280
up, you know, something like
go Beckley Teppe and do an in depth

461
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:24.920
discussion on okay, is go Beckley
Teppe a civilization. Let's let's learn to

462
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:30.400
how to identify a civilization and what
the qualifiers for a civilization are, and

463
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.599
let's look at all the data and
have my professor go through it and tell

464
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.400
me why he does or why he
doesn't, or she why she did or

465
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:43.159
did not think that that that was
a civilization. Something like that would have

466
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:47.159
been interesting, but it was just
not acknowledged at all throughout my entire time

467
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:52.199
in college. And not just go
Beckley Teppy, but I mean any any

468
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.920
sites that may predate Mesopotamia were just
not acknowledged at all. No, not

469
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:04.000
even the mention of it. That's
kind of and that's what I was starting

470
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.519
off with, is that. And
we have, like I said, we

471
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:10.480
have a lot of people on the
show who are field archaeologists. The education

472
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:20.400
is, the foundation is books that
were written fifty hundred years ago, and

473
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:25.719
it seems like the trickle down of
current data, current finds, current research

474
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:34.840
is taking its time to get into
the books. It's taking it. It's

475
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:42.559
sorry. Yeah, So I mean
that's a huge problem if you're not getting

476
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:46.559
current data. I guess that's part
two. You become a field archaeologist and

477
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:51.880
that training maybe opens you up to
the possibilities. Let's move on, though.

478
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:59.239
I want you did a very very
good YouTube presentation of the Rogan debate

479
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:05.079
with Flint Dibble and Graham Hancock.
I want you to kind of summarize your

480
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:09.760
feelings because they both you believe had
some good points, but there were some

481
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:16.280
failings on Dibbel. Who represents would
you say he represents academia as a university

482
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:25.159
teacher or more just from the standpoint
of this is our current history, and

483
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:31.159
why are you trying to screw with
it? So okay, answer your question

484
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:36.440
what you said earlier. When I
think of Graham, I like Graham.

485
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:38.639
You know from what most of the
stories I hear about him from people who

486
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:45.000
know him, that that people really
like him. And I think that what

487
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:51.840
I just think about his research as
a whole is I think that he's genuine,

488
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:55.119
and I think he's put his money
where his mouth is. He's traveled

489
00:39:55.159 --> 00:40:01.679
all over the world and travel to
all these different ancient sites, many times

490
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:06.719
on his own dime, especially in
the beginning of his career, and he's

491
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:12.400
he's taken a lot of personal attacks, and you know, willingly put himself

492
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.639
through a lot of grief to put
out to publish his theories and and his

493
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:21.039
own research. I think on some
of the things, because he's kind of

494
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.880
it's exactly like I was, is
it is it? I'm gonna be butchering

495
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.239
his name, but his name might
be Ben Arthur. I just was reading

496
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.679
about this yesterday he's one of the
initial archaeologists that that excavated the side of

497
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:39.599
Kenosis, which is it's a crete
Minoan Greek site, And you know,

498
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:45.599
we owe that guy all of the
credit for bringing Minoan society to the forefront,

499
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.800
you know, Greek Bronze Age Greece. But he made he made some

500
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.079
mistakes, and and I think that
Graham Hancock is very similar to him.

501
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:55.960
We owe him. People on the
alt side that are looking at things from

502
00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:00.599
a different point of view owe him
and the guys like him and his generation

503
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.440
a lot of credit. But on
some of the things, I think that

504
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:07.360
because he's the pioneer, he's one
of the first guys to start looking at

505
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:09.719
things from a different perspective, I
think he's shooting over the mark. And

506
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:14.159
I think that people that come behind
him and build on his research, we'll

507
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.679
get closer and closer and closer to
finding some answers, you know. And

508
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.679
so that's what I think of Graham
as a person. I do think he's

509
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.840
genuine. I think some of his
research is a bit over the mark,

510
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:28.960
but then you also see, over
the course of his entire career he has

511
00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:35.039
adjusted his viewpoints on things because he's
one of the first guys to go down

512
00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:37.679
this lane, and so of course
he's eventually going to reevaluate some of his

513
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:44.480
viewpoints. So anyways, I don't
really have a I have a positive view

514
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.960
of Graham and as far as Flint
goes, you know, I actually had

515
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:54.440
a correspondence with Flint on Twitter,
maybe appro six months ago or so,

516
00:41:54.639 --> 00:42:00.519
before he was before he was on
before it was announced when the second debate,

517
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:02.880
you know, because they had to
reschedule the first debate before the second

518
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.400
debate date was announced, I was
talking to Flint, and man, he

519
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.360
saw that I was, you know, he saw that I was a young

520
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:13.559
guy trying to approach this from an
honest point of view. I wasn't grifting.

521
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.239
I wasn't just telling people all the
cool, fascinating things that they wanted

522
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:22.920
to hear, you know. And
he sent me dozens of resources of things

523
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:27.960
that he would like me to look
into. Some some about the Bronze Age,

524
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.840
this, that and the other,
and some some really high level academic

525
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:37.320
resources he sent me. And so
I think that when he approaches I think

526
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:42.840
that his approach to the to the
debate, I don't know that well,

527
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.239
you know, I mean, he's
part of the Saya. So I guess

528
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:50.079
he's sort of speaking on behalf of
the archaeological community, and he was really

529
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.400
the only guy with the guts to
actually step into the ring. There were

530
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.079
tons of other people that got the
the guy got that got the invite.

531
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:00.599
But I think that he is sort
of not really drawing a hard line as

532
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:02.039
far as like, you know,
this is what we know. You know,

533
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:06.159
don't tread beyond this, don't tread
beyond this. Why are you trying

534
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:09.199
to mess with the status quo.
I think his whole disagreement was just Flint

535
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:15.920
was just with Graham's theory that there
was an early unknown civilization. Yeah,

536
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:16.800
yeah, yeah, I think I
think, you know, he was coming

537
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:22.519
on to disprove that. And I'll
say a couple of things about the debate.

538
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:28.280
One, I think it was so
clouded by things that didn't even need

539
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:32.480
to be mentioned. Number One,
Flint should have never ever insinuated that Graham

540
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:38.320
was a racist. That it's it's
uncalled for, it's it's not true as

541
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.480
he that. You know, when
you throw a racist out there, that's

542
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.719
like the worst insult. That's pretty
brutal body. And so you know,

543
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.400
it wasn't just Flint, you know, Flint's like one of the more unknown

544
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:55.360
guys before the debate that that would
ever insinuate that about Graham. But you

545
00:43:55.400 --> 00:44:01.159
could tell the entire debate that Graham
was was really frustrated by the attacks on

546
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:07.119
him. And so I think that
that the debate, while the audience came

547
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:13.079
to it expecting the debate to beut
to be about a lost you know,

548
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:16.440
twelve thousand years old, twelve thousand
year old Ice Age civilization, the debate

549
00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:24.239
sort of also became about our traditional
archaeologist or establishment archaeologists trying to stifle Graham

550
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:30.400
and trying to stifle Graham and slander
him in ways that aren't true, because

551
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.039
that that's what I felt like a
lot of the debate became about. And

552
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:37.199
I think that the audience didn't really
want to hear that. They just wanted

553
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:42.239
to hear the archaeology. But when
Graham has been personally getting attacked, he

554
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:46.239
also came in defensively, and I
think, I think rightfully so, but

555
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:52.199
I think that I think that the
whole debate became clouded by modern day political

556
00:44:52.480 --> 00:45:00.119
socio political drama that shouldn't have been
involved in that debate. And then and

557
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:07.000
as far as the argument. I
think that I think that Flints uh you

558
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.559
know, I know that there's some
things that are coming out now that people

559
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:15.800
that are that's people are talking about
that supposedly Flint misrepresented some data. This

560
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:21.400
isn't something that I have jumped back
into the rabbit hole about and to see

561
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.760
what exactly he misrepresented. But I
think that his approach, you know,

562
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.519
because he studies, He studied agriculture
of the Bronze Age, and so he

563
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:34.559
kind of breaks down, well,
you know, we would see agriculture traveling

564
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.599
across different parts of the world if
there was this lost civilization. And I

565
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:43.159
thought that I thought that there were
some good points there, But I don't

566
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:46.239
really know that that argument hits home
with the popular audience. You know.

567
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:53.599
Yeah, it was a specialized debate, Yeah yeah, yeah. So and

568
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.360
then and then you know, the
the the meat and potatoes of what this

569
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:04.079
whole argument sits on is ancient Egypt. And in a four and a half

570
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.679
hour debate, the last forty minutes
of it, only the last forty minutes

571
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:12.679
of it we got talking about ancient
Egypt. We spent the first three hours

572
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:17.079
and forty minutes talking about talking about
boats. You know, potential boats,

573
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.480
you know, four hundred feet off
the coast of you know, the America's

574
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:27.480
coastlines and everything, and about agriculture
and about whether or not whether or not

575
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.519
archaeologists are actually trying to stifle Graham, and I think I and I know

576
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:37.360
millions of other people just wanted to
hear them argue about the or debate the

577
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.800
the archaeology. So to be honest, I was just I was a little

578
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:47.079
disappointed with the debate. I'm going
to take a short commercial break to allow

579
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:53.079
our sponsors to identify themselves, and
we will return shortly with my guest today,

580
00:46:53.719 --> 00:47:00.280
Luke Cavern's talking about his own development
as an anthropologist, but also some

581
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:07.760
of his ideas and theories on Earth's
ancient civilizations. Will be right back.

582
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.000
My guest today is Luke Cavern's coming
to us from Austin, Texas, and

583
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:59.920
he's talking about his development as a
history buff not only that, his education

584
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:07.360
and his eventual degree in anthropology.
Some of the new data coming out from

585
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:13.519
people like Graham, Hancock, Robert
Beaval, and others who are in the

586
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:17.559
what is considered the alternative history genre, and we're getting a sense of how

587
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:23.800
that works for him in the balance
between complementary history, academic history, and

588
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:31.360
the alternative look at the ancient past. Why do you think the archaeological community

589
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:39.599
is so threatened by Graham Hancock?
Why are they threatened? Is it because

590
00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:44.559
he's a very bright guy and he
backs up his research. I mean his

591
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:51.199
books, our classroom texts are so
rich in data. And you know he

592
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:57.840
used to work, he used to
write for The Economic Economist years back.

593
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:05.000
But I mean he's not just writing
for the general pleasure of it. He's

594
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:12.559
writing really tomes and packed database facts. And I'm wondering if that's a threat

595
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:17.800
for them. You know where I
think that we stand right now. I

596
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:23.079
think that this is what's happened.
I think that, you know, all

597
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:28.239
of a sudden, there became this
in the nineties. There became this little

598
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:32.800
popular group of guys. So you
know, you have John Anthony West,

599
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:37.000
Robert Schock, Graham Hancock, Robertavalld. You know, there's there's there's there's

600
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.119
that little group there. And you
know you have on these guys on the

601
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:44.519
alternative side. You know, you
have you have such a wide range,

602
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:49.760
so you have you know, Eric
von Danakin and and uh ancient Aliens and

603
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:53.199
ancient aliens and who was the Zacharia
sitchen, you know, Yeah, and

604
00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:58.400
then then you have John Anthony West. All these guys well from the opposing

605
00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:01.800
guy, from the opposing side,
they all get clumped together and when really

606
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:06.840
there's a there's just so many different
shades of gray between these guys. But

607
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:09.599
you had this little group of guys
who, while they had alternative views,

608
00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:14.880
I've always been pretty conservative. You
know. Graham Hancock isn't running around talking

609
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:16.840
about how aliens, you know,
descended down under the earth and that all

610
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:21.800
the pyramids are landing pads. Heat's
not doing that. And so you had

611
00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:24.920
this little group of guys that seem
reasonable to a popular audience and then boom

612
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:30.719
they explode and become really popular in
the nineties and have remained popular. And

613
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.079
I think that while I wasn't really
alive at the time, I think that

614
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:42.320
they received a lot of unnecessary attack
during that time period, and then they

615
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:47.119
attacked back. And you have people
who were young during that time growing up

616
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:52.239
listening to Graham Hancock, this,
that, and the other attack. Archaeologists

617
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:57.320
back and now they think that Graham
Hancock and all these other guys are responsible

618
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:02.239
for this popularized way of attack on
archaeology when I think it was just a

619
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:09.159
group of some pretty vindictive magazines back
in the nineties that launched attacks on Graham

620
00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:14.119
Hancock and these guys. And they
started this thirty years ago. And so

621
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.199
now you have people, like I
was saying, young people my age who

622
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:23.719
are archaeologists and you know, align
very much with the traditional I don't even

623
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:29.119
know what the sides are even called
anymore, but with the EXTRADI yeah,

624
00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:32.960
they aligned very much with the with
the academic side, and they come at

625
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.119
Graham Hancock. You know, I
don't think I've ever seen it's kind of

626
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:38.760
like the debate the other day.
I don't think I've ever seen people talking

627
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:45.599
the way that they talk now.
And so I think that I think that

628
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.519
they feel threatened by Graham Hancock because
they hear the attacks or the things that

629
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:53.320
Graham Hancock has said about archaeologists over
the last thirty years. But also,

630
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:59.400
Graham didn't start this, you know, he didn't begin the attacks, as

631
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:02.079
to min and so I think that's
what's happening is we're, you know,

632
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:07.239
three decades deep into something and people
don't even realize how this all began.

633
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:09.159
If that makes sense, Yeah,
you know, it's funny you mentioned that

634
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:14.400
it's all kind of you're saying that
the academics are looking at it from not

635
00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:20.599
only Hancock but also Eric von Donnegan
and the ancient alien theories, which are

636
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:27.000
hugely popular on TV. But it
kind of blurs the line for anything else

637
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.599
because not only are they they're not
sticking with the ancient alien thing, they

638
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:36.920
bleed into traditional archaeology. We were
just talking about Ed Barnhardt. Ed has

639
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:40.639
been on Ancient Aliens probably like fifteen
times. And he'll tell me, though,

640
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:43.880
he will, I think it's I
think it's sixty. I think he's

641
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:47.320
been in sixty sixty episodes. I
think, yeah, I didn't know was

642
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.440
that many. But the funny thing
about it is he's told me blank,

643
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:54.400
flat out, he says, I
don't talk about aliens. I talk about

644
00:52:54.440 --> 00:53:00.679
my research, my work, and
they somehow blended in so it's legitimized.

645
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:05.559
Sure. So, And this is
the real problem with Ancient Aliens is that

646
00:53:06.679 --> 00:53:12.880
they'll they'll kind across the lines and
they'll just blur the whole idea. Yeah,

647
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:17.880
the the theory behind ancient aliens coming
and creating civilization. Yeah, yeah,

648
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:21.400
Well, and I think I think
that there are people, I think

649
00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:27.519
they are archaeologists out there who are
resentful at you know, they they stand

650
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.800
so far on the other side,
they cannot see that there is a vast

651
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:35.760
difference between Graham, Hancock, ancient
aliens, guys, you know, and

652
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.960
they can't see if there's a vast
difference there. And then so they I

653
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:45.079
think that they feel resentful how popular
these guys are, and how good of

654
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:50.119
storytellers they are, and how much
they how much the audience reciprocates what they're

655
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.960
talking about. Yeah, and they
resent that and they don't like that all

656
00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:58.119
the attention is on them. But
I think that archaeology has a real problem.

657
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:04.360
In what they call science communication,
there is nobody maybe I shouldn't say

658
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:08.519
nobody, but very very very few
people that are you know, not alt

659
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.960
at all, just you know,
academics through and through that are great science

660
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:17.440
communicators that can reach out to a
general audience and get them interested. Why

661
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:20.679
that is, I don't know,
you know, I don't know, if

662
00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:24.440
I don't know, if you know, if I had gone to go get

663
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:29.840
my PhD in anthropology and picked a
certain specialty, if by the time I

664
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:34.360
get out of that end of research, I have now lost my ability to

665
00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:38.760
communicate, to communicate well with a
popular audience at the end of that,

666
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:42.559
because that's what it feels like,
they go down this long rabbit hole,

667
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:45.480
and then on the other side they've
lost their ability to connect with people with

668
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:50.320
a general audience of people who are
interested in what they're doing. And also

669
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.519
those people are the people that give
donations to fund their research. If that

670
00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:59.239
makes sense. Yeah, it's kind
of crazy, schizophrenic. So that's why,

671
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.960
you know, I don't have a
strong opinion of Flint personally. To

672
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:10.039
me, he was very generous and
didn't have to be, but I cringed

673
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:14.519
a little bit, and I don't
he didn't realize he did this. But

674
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:19.000
you know, the the SAA,
they tried to they tried to get they

675
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:23.519
sent out letters to try to get
the to try to get Ancient Apocalypse shut

676
00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:29.400
down, right, and and Flint
is a part of that organization. And

677
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:34.039
then at the end he's talking about
how archaeological programs all over the world and

678
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:38.880
all these universities are being shut down, and I think that two programs at

679
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:43.920
his college that he works at,
which is in Wales, were being shut

680
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.199
down. He mentioned all these others
and then and then Graham Hancock is like,

681
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:50.440
yes, and we don't want that
to happen. We want archaeology to

682
00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:53.920
continue because you know, everything that
Graham does is built on this ocean of

683
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:59.280
archaeological data that he pulls from.
And Joe Rogan as well, he was

684
00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:01.519
like, yeah, we don't want
that. What can people do? You

685
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:05.360
know, what can people do to
help out these these organizations? And then

686
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:09.199
Flint goes, well, you can
donate to the SSAA, And then I

687
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:15.440
go, I go, I got. I'm like and they're the ones calling

688
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:22.800
Graham a racist, and they're anything
that that that is questioned is a problem

689
00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:28.119
for them. Yeah, And and
where all the public interest is, all

690
00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:32.360
the public fascination, where all the
money is at is in the popular general

691
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:37.599
audience. And the reason that people
love Graham is because he's reaching out and

692
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:42.639
connecting with them and showing them that
the ancient world is fascinating. There are

693
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:47.039
tons of people out there that just
want to be romantically caught up in the

694
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:52.400
ancient world. So many of my
videos don't even talk about Atlantis. I

695
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:55.159
just talk about it in a romantic
way where people can tell that I'm in

696
00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:00.280
love with ancient history, and people
people reciprocate that that's what they want.

697
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:05.480
But a lot of times I feel
like academics have a real problem with being

698
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:09.039
able to communicate the romance of archaeology, and the romance of archaeology, I

699
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:15.079
should remind you, is deeply tied
into like modern day Western culture. You

700
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:19.960
know, this idea of an archaeologist
going off and discovering something. Now they've

701
00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:22.280
made that racist. So you can't
like that. You can't like anything that's

702
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.480
romantic, you know, and they've
taken away all the soul of everything.

703
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:30.960
And not all of them, but
there are some that are exceptional, like

704
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:36.320
Bob Bryer. If anybody here is
listening, he's very old now, But

705
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:42.639
Bob Bryer, he's a traditional Egyptologist. Oh my gosh, his lectures are

706
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.079
amazing. You can tell that guy. Yeah, he's in love with Egypt

707
00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:52.280
and it's infectious. And I think
that they just have a real problem with

708
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:57.599
with science communication. And so if
guys like Flint Dibble, you know,

709
00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:02.000
if they would see Graham as a
useful, you know, tool in the

710
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:06.719
overall archaeological world, they could just
tell Graham, Hey, Graham, well,

711
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:08.000
you know, let's try to work
together and get some funding because you

712
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:10.679
know, I would love that.
Have you have you seen have you seen

713
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:15.280
that that exca not completely, but
a lot of excavations at Go Beckley Teppe

714
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:20.000
are being put on pause for like, this is the huge problem. Go

715
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:25.840
Becky Teppe has not ad any major
excavations apparently in almost ten years. Yeah.

716
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:30.559
Well, and imagine imagine what you
know, if these archaeological organizations,

717
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:34.159
if they could reach out to guys
like Graham and be like, hey,

718
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:37.320
you know, we want to acquire
funding to further protect these sites and excavate

719
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:40.320
them. We're just going to tell
you straight up, We're not going to

720
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:45.079
disparage you, but we're also not
going to We're also not going to adhere

721
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:47.280
to what your theories are. You're
not going to be in control. But

722
00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:51.239
if you can help us get funding, this, that, and the other,

723
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:52.840
we can work to make a documentary
together about the site. Blah blah

724
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:58.760
blah blah blah blah blah. They
can work together to preserve and further excavate

725
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:04.480
all these sites, but they choose
to attack the people that have a vice

726
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:08.639
grip on those that might be able
to further donate to their cause. You

727
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:13.960
know that you're right they should find
a middle ground that they can work within,

728
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:16.880
and you know, help help move
this. Let's move along a little

729
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:23.519
bit. I am fascinated. You've
had a couple of presentations where you're discussing

730
00:59:23.559 --> 00:59:29.920
what I call out of place artifacts. And you know, we had a

731
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:36.000
number of people that were on the
Cosmic Summit conference recently and one of the

732
00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:45.239
topics there was these ancient stone vases
and you had a chance to see them.

733
00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:51.599
And is it it's Mark Bell's collection? Matts Matt Bell? Excuse me?

734
00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:57.320
And you did you actually fly to
Florida to see them personally talk about

735
00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:00.840
them, talk about this collection?
Well, okay, so I'll tell you.

736
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:07.079
I heard so. John Anthony West
long time ago, you know,

737
01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:10.320
thirty years ago, wrote about wrote
about the vases, just very briefly.

738
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:14.719
And so there's been this slow,
slow, slow, slow, slow,

739
01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:22.280
uh interest in and progressive obsession with
them. And then I saw Ben van

740
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:25.039
Kirkwick, I saw his presentation on
Tarta X. I saw his presentation on

741
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:30.639
the vases at Cosmic Summit in twenty
twenty three, and I thought, this

742
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:32.800
is pretty fascinating, it's pretty cool. I don't know exactly what I think

743
01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:38.119
of these vases, but it's pretty
cool. And then I got this,

744
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:42.119
Uh, I got this email.
This is a funny story. Uh So

745
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:46.039
I got like multiple emails from the
assistant of this guy named Matt Bell and

746
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:53.840
uh and and so I keep getting
these emails and then you know, he's

747
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:57.159
like, I'd love to I'd love
to, you know, fly you in?

748
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.719
Have you come? You know you
can you can check out these vases

749
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.639
that I got. And I learned, Oh, okay, so this guy

750
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:04.039
he's a he's a collector of these
vases. This is pretty cool. Oh

751
01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:07.079
he's starting his own podcast. But
you know, he's just getting his podcast

752
01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:08.519
off the ground. And so I
didn't know what to think of him.

753
01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:13.039
I never heard the name do anything, didn't know anything about him. And

754
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:14.880
then so eventually I was like,
I was like, you know what,

755
01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:16.880
I'm I'm gonna go back to Florida. I had just been on Danny Jones.

756
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:21.119
Uh So I was like, well, I'm gonna fly back to Florida

757
01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:23.559
and and go on this this guy's
little podcast. He seems really nice and

758
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:27.400
genuine, but I don't know anything
about him. And uh, I didn't

759
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:31.119
even research him before I before I
flew out there. And uh, but

760
01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.800
so I went out there, and
then you know, we have we have

761
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.880
dinner, and uh, we have
dinner, and there's a there's a point

762
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:43.280
in the conversation where you know,
he's asking me about my personal life and

763
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:46.280
then and and so I go I
I just asked him, I saying,

764
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:49.400
oh, so, what do you
do for a living? And uh?

765
01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:52.159
And then he like looks down and
he's a really humble guy, and he

766
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:53.960
goes, he goes, well,
you know, I'm I'm the CEO of

767
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:59.280
Bell's, Inc. And I was
like, never heard of that? And

768
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:00.880
and I didn't know either. I
didn't It was yeah, yeah, stores

769
01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:04.119
in Florida. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I got, I got.

770
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:07.039
I never heard of that. And
he's like, well, you know,

771
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.239
maybe you've seen the logo or something. So I so I I pull out

772
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.159
my phone and I'm like like,
all right, yeah, let me let

773
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:15.599
me look it up. So I
look up Bells and then immediately I recognized

774
01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:21.320
the logo. And my mom worked
for him in college to get her to

775
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:22.679
get herself through college. So we
have some of these stores in Texas,

776
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:25.400
and all of a sudden, I
looked up from the table and I realized

777
01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:29.960
the table that I was the table
I was having dinner at and all of

778
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.920
a sudden, like, uh,
you know, who I was speaking to

779
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:37.480
came into perspective. But uh,
he's a great guy and we've become really

780
01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.960
good friends. She mentioned also that
he's very wealthy and this is the only

781
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:45.320
way you could get because these vases
are like ten thousand apiece. Yeah,

782
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:49.800
yeah, these ten thousand dollars or
more. Sure, yeah, yeah,

783
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:52.079
some of them. Some of them
are very expensive. And so the next

784
01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:55.599
day we went to uh so the
next day. But you would never know

785
01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.760
it when you when you he's very
humble and at Cosmic Summit, I was

786
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:04.119
a Cosmic Summing. I was sitting
there looking out at the crowd, and

787
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:07.480
I can see Matt and he's just, you know, sitting amongst everybody else.

788
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:10.880
Nobody would ever know, you know
that this guy is the CEO of

789
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.639
Bells. You would not know.
And uh, yeah, he's he's an

790
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:22.719
amazing guy. So so I go
to you know, he sends me the

791
01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:27.360
location to go to the next day
and and so I meet him there and

792
01:03:28.280 --> 01:03:30.920
we walk into this room. He's
got the vases. He's got the vases

793
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:35.920
there, and yeah, it was
it was actually probably shouldn't include that little

794
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:38.719
part about sent me the location.
I just you know, it's like it's

795
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:42.920
like a one point five million dollars, so maybe cut that little part out.

796
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.679
But anyways, so so the next
day I got to see the vases

797
01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:52.400
in person, and the very first
time that I held the vases, you

798
01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:55.039
immediately understand the significance of it,
just the first time you hold him.

799
01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.840
Because I was asking him, I
was like like, yeah, I'm a

800
01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:00.199
little nervous to hold him. You
know, I don't want to, you

801
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:01.119
know, I don't want to drop
them. And he was like, he's

802
01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:03.079
like, he's like, well,
one, I don't think you're going to

803
01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:05.599
drop them, and if you did, I don't think anything would happen to

804
01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:09.599
him. And I said really,
and he goes, he goes, yeah,

805
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:11.760
yeah. You know. One time
I was driving and I had to

806
01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:14.840
I had to hit my brakes a
little bit, and the uh and the

807
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:17.199
vases flung forward and I think he
said, one hit the dash and he

808
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:19.639
was like he's like, he's like
and I realized it's more likely that it's

809
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:21.920
going to hurt the dash then it's
gonna hurt anything else. He's like,

810
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:28.119
they were totally fine. So as
soon as you picked him up. Even

811
01:04:28.159 --> 01:04:31.280
though some of the walls are ultra
ultra thin, they are solid, man,

812
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.679
and they're heavy, and you can
feel how old they are. I

813
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:38.800
don't know how to describe that.
Like I sometimes I think that there are

814
01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:43.559
things that human beings can feel and
know that are not uh, they can't

815
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.719
be tested. But you just know
when you're holding this thing that it's immensely

816
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:53.079
old. And what what But let
me stop you when you say you can

817
01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:58.480
tell something. What is that statement
that you think that are immensely old?

818
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:02.000
Because when you look at him and
we had been on the program a few

819
01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:05.840
weeks ago and he is doing a
lot of testing right now. Yeah,

820
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:12.679
but what is that frame of reference
that you're saying they feel extremely old?

821
01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:17.800
Why would you say that? Okay, so I guess, I guess maybe

822
01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:20.880
it's just it's just a combination of
like the senses that you have when you're

823
01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:27.480
holding them, you know, so
you're looking at them and you can see,

824
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.519
you know, sometimes when things have
been in the ground for a really,

825
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:32.760
really really long time. You could
clean that thing as much as you

826
01:05:32.840 --> 01:05:40.199
want, but you're never gonna get
five thousand years worth of aging out of

827
01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:43.360
it, you know, at least
five thousand years, I should say.

828
01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:47.440
And so I'm holding you know,
I'm holding the iconic brown base, but

829
01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:56.519
he's got dozens of them there.
And tell you what I've got here,

830
01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:59.760
yours. This is a three D
scan of it. Oh, this is

831
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:02.760
this is that's the one that this
is. This is the vase. Is

832
01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:08.360
that Chris Dunn's reproduction? Well,
no, this one that Matt made,

833
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:11.280
but he sent it to me.
Oh yeah, yeah. So it's got

834
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:15.119
all the little grooves and stuff in
it. Yeah. So I'm holding the

835
01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:19.400
real version of this phase. And
in all the little grooves there's little little

836
01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:25.599
tiny fragments of dust. And when
you smell it, you can just smell.

837
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:29.400
I do not explain it other than
you can smell its age. And

838
01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:33.280
anybody who anybody who has held these
things in person, you immediately feel its

839
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.760
significance. And and that's why I
say that, Like I you know,

840
01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:43.599
sometimes I wonder if human beings,
if there's this next level of science or

841
01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:45.920
reality, things that we don't have
the ability to test, but human beings

842
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.679
intuitively know. And as soon as
I held it, I immediately understood it

843
01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:54.599
significantly. Very good. Yeah,
and intuition takes over sure, Yeah,

844
01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:59.480
And up to that point, I
was very not skeptical, but just didn't

845
01:06:59.480 --> 01:07:00.800
have any opinion on it at all. I was just like, well,

846
01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.599
these are going to be cool to
see held the first base and I was

847
01:07:03.639 --> 01:07:08.920
like, oh, wow, have
you been to Sakara. I haven't been

848
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:12.039
yet. I will be in January. Yeah, because I mean we go

849
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.519
there every year, we do tours
there and they found forty thousand of these

850
01:07:15.559 --> 01:07:21.960
things on the underneath the doj Or
pyramid yep. And so but when you

851
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.960
went with him and you were holding
them, what does he say? Did

852
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:31.280
he have any opinion other than they're
very cool? Yeah? Yeah, well

853
01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:35.000
no he does not. He he
won't. You know. He was just

854
01:07:35.039 --> 01:07:39.840
on Danny Jones. Matt was and
Danny asked him like multiple times, you

855
01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:42.840
know, what do you think the
uses of these things were? And and

856
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:49.199
I think that he has purposely tried
to stay away from speculation and making things

857
01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:55.360
sound too over the top because he's
trying to get these scanned by by you

858
01:07:55.360 --> 01:07:58.960
know, museums and get them,
you know, scanned and looked at by

859
01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:02.960
some some other pfessionals to take it
seriously. And I think he's purposely staying

860
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:09.440
away from speculation as to not draw
like negative unwanted attention, which is smart,

861
01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:14.199
and so he does not. He
does not have a theory. He

862
01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:16.119
asks other people. He's asked me
a couple of times, you know,

863
01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:18.840
what do you think that they were
used for? And uh, And to

864
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:25.399
be honest, I don't. I
don't know. You know, I would

865
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:30.399
think like, possibly it's keeping up
with the tradition, or maybe it's the

866
01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:34.319
beginning of the tradition of canopic jars. You know, people storing their organs

867
01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:39.079
inside these when they're buried. But
they've done chemical analyses on them and they

868
01:08:39.119 --> 01:08:44.039
don't find that organic matter in these. Can you stretch your mind a little

869
01:08:44.039 --> 01:08:49.640
bit because Ben now believes that these
are part of a machine. Well,

870
01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:55.079
the only thing about that is is
I have no idea. I wouldn't.

871
01:08:55.239 --> 01:08:59.680
I don't know, you know,
the you know, we're talking about a

872
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:04.720
time and that at the very least
these are five thousand years old. No,

873
01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:06.800
no, no, they're older than
that. At the very least,

874
01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:14.119
they're five thousand, two hundred years
old. We know so little about the

875
01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:17.640
people who who were buried with these
things, let alone the people who made

876
01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:20.680
them. We don't know if they're
the same people or not. We know

877
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:27.119
almost nothing about these people. And
when you're trying to look at like for

878
01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:30.479
ancient technology, here's something really interesting. For example, have you ever seen

879
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:34.520
the anti Cathera mechanism. I know
you have that. We had programs on

880
01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:39.039
it. Yeah, I think it's
really kind of out of place. Oh,

881
01:09:39.079 --> 01:09:44.680
it's a it's an incredible artifact.
But we have from literary sources we

882
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:46.039
know that, so you know,
it's made out of bronze. It is

883
01:09:46.039 --> 01:09:51.520
a it's a handheld model of their
solar system that the Greeks recognized. That

884
01:09:53.000 --> 01:10:00.399
device was being sold on the streets
of Syracuse and Alexandria found one fifty BC.

885
01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:06.399
And that's not a very known like
little fact. But we still only

886
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:13.600
find that one artifact because we don't
know when. We have no idea when

887
01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:16.119
exactly this happened. Either they were
all taken and hidden away somewhere, or

888
01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:20.159
they're all still buried under the ground
somewhere, or they were melted down and

889
01:10:20.199 --> 01:10:26.199
turned into bronze swords by the Romans. There were so many of them that

890
01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:28.680
they were being sold on the street, and yet we only have the one

891
01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:30.439
that was found in a shipwreck,
you know, from like fifty BC.

892
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:36.720
Or something. So when you're going
back another three thousand years at least before

893
01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:42.920
that, I mean, now you're
talking about swimming through this primordial sea of

894
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:47.119
early civilization that we don't know anything
about. So I think that there were

895
01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:53.960
definitely ancient machines existing back then.
I mean Herodotus when he's going through Egypt

896
01:10:54.039 --> 01:10:58.800
and four fifty BC and he's speaking
to these Egyptian you know, tour guides

897
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:01.760
or whatever exactly they are are,
they are telling him that the pyramids were

898
01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:05.880
built with machines. I can go
get Heroditis histories right now and read that

899
01:11:05.960 --> 01:11:12.319
passage to you. Does he actually
say that that the uh, the Egyptians

900
01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:16.159
are saying we used unknown machines to
build the blocks on them. No,

901
01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:19.119
No, they don't say they don't
say unknown machines. He just says he

902
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:25.399
uses some kind of word that is
a synonym to machines, that they were

903
01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:29.439
built using machines. Okay, And
and I don't know that he elaborates on

904
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:32.439
that very much. Yeah, but
yeah, I mean even Heroditus he's hearing

905
01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:36.600
that in four fifty BC that the
Egyptians are telling him that and so and

906
01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:44.399
at the same time, even if
the pyramids are from twenty five twenty six

907
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:49.600
hundred BC. The Egyptians living two
thousand years later are not the same population

908
01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:54.279
of people almost at all. It's
just they're so disconnected from that. But

909
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:58.760
even they are saying, through one
means or another, that that the pyramids

910
01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:02.279
were built using ancient machines of some
kind. And these right here are the

911
01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:08.840
evidence of some kind of ancient machining
of some kind. Now as far as

912
01:12:08.840 --> 01:12:11.039
these being a part of the machine, I don't know. You know,

913
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:15.760
I have no idea. I think
I can see why he says that.

914
01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:17.680
I've talked to him about it a
couple of times, and but you know,

915
01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:25.840
I don't have that. I don't
have that technological engineering mind. But

916
01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.279
yeah, I mean I think it's
interesting, and I definitely think that there

917
01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:32.119
were machines of some kind around and
you know, pre three thousand BC.

918
01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:36.600
Why why, though, why do
egypt We have a lot of great Egyptologists.

919
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:41.199
I don't know. If you know
doctor Carrie Cooney, who's in the

920
01:12:41.319 --> 01:12:45.279
UCLA all the time, she says
stuff that blows me away. She we

921
01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:48.760
had her on a couple of years
ago. She says, Egyptology is dead.

922
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:51.800
She said that really oh yeah,
and it was quoted all over the

923
01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:56.880
place, and she says that because
they can't get out of their own way

924
01:12:57.720 --> 01:13:03.239
discoveries like that, the Serrapem,
they can't explain, they can't explain the

925
01:13:03.279 --> 01:13:10.560
Osirian, which is this huge megalithic
block structure underneath the ground, and they

926
01:13:10.640 --> 01:13:15.720
just say it's all the dynastics and
it just doesn't work anymore. But when

927
01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:20.239
we have this issue of Egyptology saying, you know, they were at this

928
01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:26.439
level of technology and then you're holding
this stone carved obviously cut on the lathe

929
01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:32.680
technology, there's a disconnect. Yeah, I totally I totally agree. I

930
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:40.560
think that I think that possibly I
would have to listen to her quote more

931
01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:44.840
when she said when she said she
said Egyptology is dead. Yeah, you

932
01:13:44.880 --> 01:13:53.920
know, I think that that sentiment
probably is applicable to a lot of specialized

933
01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:57.119
research. Yeah, yeah, it
is. It is, you know,

934
01:13:57.279 --> 01:14:03.000
because they are so vehemently against,
so vehemily opposed to people that could help

935
01:14:03.439 --> 01:14:10.399
further and fund their research, that
they're gonna strangle they You're going to strangle

936
01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:14.800
their whole profession. You know,
you have to you have to be amicable,

937
01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:17.840
amicable with people and and use,
you know, everything to u to

938
01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:21.600
the advantage of your research. And
so I think that I think that there

939
01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:26.359
are a lot of things that are
going on in Egypt, a lot of

940
01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:30.199
bad stuff that's going on in Egypt
that has stifled Egyptology for a while now.

941
01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:35.239
And I'll just say, like as
simply as uh as man selling,

942
01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:42.279
selling a mummy is a lot more
profitable than a million people walking into the

943
01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:45.880
Cairo Museum. There are I mean, and that didn't you have anything to

944
01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:49.600
do with like hiding well, I
mean, I guess it is hiding archaeological

945
01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:54.600
finds or you know, it's not
even them shutting down people's theories. It's

946
01:14:54.720 --> 01:15:00.960
like, okay, I have control
over this. I have direct control over

947
01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:05.359
this archaeological site. We are out
here in kind of a secluded area where

948
01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:08.560
we can dig down into the ground
and no one can see what we're doing.

949
01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:12.880
And we have all these tents up
and we're gonna pull out priceless artifacts

950
01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:16.600
and sell them on a black market, and we are gonna make millions doing

951
01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:19.119
this. You know, they sell
them to Americans, they sell them to

952
01:15:19.159 --> 01:15:24.359
American billionaires, they sell them to
you know, European billionaires all over the

953
01:15:24.359 --> 01:15:28.199
world. I mean not even that. He probably billionaires in Africa all over

954
01:15:28.239 --> 01:15:34.199
the world, and they're selling they're
selling human bodies, they're selling priceless artifacts.

955
01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:39.960
Sarcopha guy, it's you know what
I mean, it's it's corrupt and

956
01:15:39.960 --> 01:15:44.760
and so yeah, yeah, it's
just it's like any other field. It's

957
01:15:44.800 --> 01:15:48.239
like any other field. If you
have human beings controlling it, there's gonna

958
01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:51.479
be corruption. Exactly. Hey,
as we conclude, and by the way,

959
01:15:51.479 --> 01:15:56.479
this has been fun. Your sweet
spot is meso America and you talk

960
01:15:56.520 --> 01:16:00.520
about it all the time, and
you have an interest, and you've done

961
01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:04.720
a program on the Olmech what what
do you think is the big question mark?

962
01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:08.920
Uh? On the Olmec. And
by the way, we had ed

963
01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:15.920
Barnhardt do a program and we just
finished a tour last November UH in Dabasco

964
01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:20.239
and we saw some of these amazing
artifacts that are attributed to the to the

965
01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:25.520
Omec. But what's what's your interest
in the Olmec? Oh? I think

966
01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:29.880
I think that my interest in my
interest in the Olmecs is actually it's kind

967
01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:35.199
of similar to my interest in in
early Egypt. They are very similar cultures.

968
01:16:36.760 --> 01:16:42.079
We don't really know exactly well,
I mean even more so, like

969
01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:45.079
if you take the t if you
take the traditional Egypt's logical explanation. You

970
01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:50.359
know, it's commonly said among enthusiasts
of ancient Egypt that it feels like,

971
01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:56.319
you know, Egypt just boom appears
on the archaeological record and they're building pyramids

972
01:16:56.319 --> 01:17:00.079
from the very beginning. Well,
if you get down into it, you

973
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:03.560
know, we actually have like according
to the traditional explanation, there's like five

974
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:08.800
or six hundred years leading up to
the first pyramid where they think that they

975
01:17:08.840 --> 01:17:11.680
know a little bit of what was
going on in that world. In the

976
01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:16.039
Olmes, that is not the case. We hardly have any archaeological data before

977
01:17:16.119 --> 01:17:21.560
the heads at all. Basically none
from the very beginning, from day one.

978
01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:26.159
According you know, according to the
evidence we have, they are can

979
01:17:26.199 --> 01:17:31.520
they are They're coreying, cutting,
transporting, and then carving these heads from

980
01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:35.239
the very beginning of their society,
and they appear out of nowhere, you

981
01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:38.439
know. There. Yeah, it
was, it was really cool. I

982
01:17:38.479 --> 01:17:42.880
was standing at San Lorenzo uh with
Ed earlier this year, just a couple

983
01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:46.159
few months ago, and and I
was standing there and it was the first

984
01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:50.680
time that I've ever stood at a
fertile crescent site. You know, it

985
01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:55.279
was my my first and I have
like six more ago and so I'm standing

986
01:17:55.279 --> 01:17:57.479
there. I'm standing there looking around
at this field, and I'm like,

987
01:17:58.640 --> 01:18:03.800
like, civilization began in here.
You know, people started building earth in

988
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:10.279
pyramids and mounds and palaces here.
Why you know, why did civilization?

989
01:18:10.600 --> 01:18:14.880
How did it start here? And
how did they when you look at when

990
01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:17.600
you look at Monument nineteen where you
see the ole mech man holding the little

991
01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:21.840
handbag and while he's sitting inside of
the while he's sitting inside of the feathered

992
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:27.479
serpent, you look at that carved
into basalt, and people don't realize basalt

993
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:31.359
on the most scale is as hard
as dirite and granite, and they're carving

994
01:18:31.399 --> 01:18:35.640
into one of the hardest rocks in
their area. There's tons of limestone.

995
01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:42.399
In fact, they are actually outsourcing
basalt from the Sierra de la Tucilla mountains

996
01:18:42.399 --> 01:18:47.319
that are one hundred miles away.
They're they're bringing that basalt in and then

997
01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:51.520
carving it. And you look at
the you look at the esthetics of their

998
01:18:51.640 --> 01:18:56.880
artwork and how masterful, how masterful
all of it is, and that they

999
01:18:56.880 --> 01:19:01.800
have their own style, like their
style is not an actual representation of what

1000
01:19:01.880 --> 01:19:06.359
those people look like. They literally
have an art style. Where did that?

1001
01:19:09.079 --> 01:19:14.159
How do you even think to do
that? To make to make artifacts,

1002
01:19:14.359 --> 01:19:16.279
you know, to to to make
a stone head that's two feet tall

1003
01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:21.079
and one half of the head rather
than having eyes, you have this rectangular

1004
01:19:21.319 --> 01:19:30.119
square eye with this you know,
grimacing brow and this facial features. Yeah,

1005
01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:31.800
it's I mean, where do you
come up with that? And then

1006
01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:35.319
the second half of the head it
looks like it's eroded away, but it's

1007
01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:40.720
not. It's turned into smoke.
Yeah, carved out of carved out of

1008
01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:45.239
stone. Where do you come up
with this? You know? And I

1009
01:19:45.800 --> 01:19:50.800
think that that's fascinating because it is
one of the best examples of what we

1010
01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:59.880
of what everybody ancient civilization, theorist, academics, archaeologist, everyone agrees that

1011
01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:03.159
this is a lost civilization. We
don't know what language they spoke, We

1012
01:20:03.239 --> 01:20:08.199
don't know what they called themselves.
We don't know why they carved the heads,

1013
01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:12.399
We don't know if they had any
gods. We think that there's evidence

1014
01:20:12.479 --> 01:20:15.600
for you know, six or seven
gods maybe, but maybe they're not actually

1015
01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:19.279
gods. We don't know. We
don't know why they would make twenty eight

1016
01:20:19.479 --> 01:20:25.239
layer mosaics all stacked, you know, like Greek and Roman mosaics. They

1017
01:20:25.239 --> 01:20:29.159
carved the same thing out of serpentine
blocks. You saw it at Leaventa Yea,

1018
01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:32.920
And that little mosaic that's carved on
the serpenteen blocks that's twenty eight layers

1019
01:20:33.000 --> 01:20:39.399
deep and it's like one thousand,
four hundred pounds or something like that,

1020
01:20:40.600 --> 01:20:43.479
all buried into the ground at the
same time and covered up so when they

1021
01:20:43.479 --> 01:20:46.039
were done no one could see it. The last you know, the top

1022
01:20:46.119 --> 01:20:49.760
layer was not sitting above the surface, it was completely buried. There's so

1023
01:20:49.840 --> 01:20:57.239
many things about that culture that nobody
can explain. And it's like the number

1024
01:20:57.399 --> 01:21:02.560
one example of a lost civilation that
we have discovered and we know nothing about

1025
01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:09.039
them. And I think that studying
them informs the study of a lost civilization

1026
01:21:09.159 --> 01:21:12.560
in other places around the world,
if that makes sense. Yeah, amazing,

1027
01:21:13.119 --> 01:21:15.439
Luke Caverns. It's been a pleasure
of getting to know you and uh,

1028
01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:21.760
you have a fascinating the things to
consider in the future. How can

1029
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:26.359
people get a hold of you?
You have a website, no website yet.

1030
01:21:26.880 --> 01:21:30.279
My website's in development, but you
can find me on anything by just

1031
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:32.880
my name, Luke gaverns l u
K E c A v E r n

1032
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:38.840
s okay, excellent, And give
us an update on what tours you're doing

1033
01:21:38.920 --> 01:21:41.279
for the US. You're doing a
couple at the end of the year,

1034
01:21:41.319 --> 01:21:44.199
you're doing one with Ed, But
what else is coming up for you in

1035
01:21:44.279 --> 01:21:47.000
terms of yeah, yeah, so
I'm doing I'm doing a tour. I'm

1036
01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.479
doing an Olmec tour. It's called
it's an o My Tour, but it's

1037
01:21:50.479 --> 01:21:56.600
also called Megalithic Mexico. And and
that's the tour I'm doing in December where

1038
01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:01.000
we will be beginning in Tabasco,
Mexico at the Leventa Park and and driving

1039
01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:03.880
over the course of eight or nine
days all the way back to Mexico City.

1040
01:22:04.119 --> 01:22:08.279
And during this tour, people will
see, well, one, you'll

1041
01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:13.279
see all seventeen known basalt Olmec heads. You'll see all of them. You're

1042
01:22:13.279 --> 01:22:15.920
gonna go find all of them,
huh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1043
01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:18.560
So so we're gonna see all of
them. And then and then there

1044
01:22:18.560 --> 01:22:23.880
are also three colossal limestone heads that
people are gonna see that you almost you

1045
01:22:23.880 --> 01:22:29.359
almost never see these publicized anywhere.
And then in the last few days of

1046
01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:32.800
the tour, we're gonna be seeing
other megaliths in Mexico that are kept in

1047
01:22:32.840 --> 01:22:38.439
these big museums, some of them
on archaeological sites. But you're gonna see

1048
01:22:38.479 --> 01:22:45.000
you're gonna see the biggest collection of
Mexican megaliths that you would see on anywhere

1049
01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:48.439
else. And it's really cool,
and I think there's a lot that there's

1050
01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:53.159
a lot of places that people are
gonna walk into and be absolutely mind blown

1051
01:22:53.319 --> 01:22:58.520
at the things that exist that they'd
never seen before. I was for sure.

1052
01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:02.159
Are you gonna go to the National
Ethropological Museum in Mexico City, Yes,

1053
01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:04.560
that's the day, that's the second
to last day. Yeah, because

1054
01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:10.000
that's where there's a ton of big
pieces. My gosh, man, the

1055
01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:15.760
the the the Atlantean tula statues that
are there, and then the the Teoti

1056
01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:19.119
wa Kan statue that's out in front
of the museum. Oh man, I

1057
01:23:19.159 --> 01:23:26.600
mean you're talking about something that's you're
talking about some megaliths there that are bigger

1058
01:23:26.640 --> 01:23:30.439
than the vast majority of monuments in
Egypt. Like there's a handful of monuments

1059
01:23:30.439 --> 01:23:35.439
that are bigger than Mexico's biggest megalith. I mean, it's yeah, yeah,

1060
01:23:35.640 --> 01:23:40.840
you know, I think the statue
of the Colossi of the Ramaseum,

1061
01:23:40.880 --> 01:23:43.960
you know, is is that's like
one of the only things that's bigger than

1062
01:23:44.079 --> 01:23:48.159
Mexico's biggest megaliths, So really cool
stuff. So that's what we're doing.

1063
01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:55.520
And then following that, I'm doing
the Cleopatra's Egypt Tour in January, and

1064
01:23:55.560 --> 01:23:59.399
that's from Alexandria down to Aswant.
So for two weeks we'll be sailing from

1065
01:23:59.399 --> 01:24:02.279
Alexandria and we'll see every main site. But basically what we're doing is kind

1066
01:24:02.279 --> 01:24:08.520
of investigating one of the more unknown
parts of Egypt. You know, we

1067
01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:12.479
don't really understand the beginning of Egypt
and we don't really understand the end of

1068
01:24:12.520 --> 01:24:15.960
it, and so this is kind
of this is kind of a tour of

1069
01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:21.039
Egypt, looking at the mysteries of
Egypt through people who were living and collecting

1070
01:24:21.079 --> 01:24:26.279
knowledge in the city of Alexandria,
working at the library, and so it's

1071
01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:29.239
kind of a it's kind of a
new take on ancient Egypt. I like

1072
01:24:29.319 --> 01:24:32.640
that nice, yeah, and so
yeah, that's that's what I have planned

1073
01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:35.800
for the end of the year beginning
of twenty twenty five. Maybe if you

1074
01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:40.960
cross your fingers. Maybe the Grand
Egyptian Museum will be open by then,

1075
01:24:41.039 --> 01:24:45.319
because it's been seven years in delay
and has the largest collection of artifacts in

1076
01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:49.359
the world, over a million pieces. Oh man, I know one thing

1077
01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:53.880
that I'm one thing that I'm going
to do in the future, and one

1078
01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:57.800
thing I'm excited about for this Egypt
tour. For the Egypt tour, I

1079
01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:01.880
don't think a lot of tours go
to the h to the the Alexandrian museums.

1080
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:04.560
There's a couple there, yeah,
and I don't know if you've ever

1081
01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:08.760
been to them, but there's been
that part. Now. There's there's some

1082
01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:13.479
strange stuff there, like there's a
there are granite and dire wte statues that

1083
01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:18.079
were carved in Alexandria that depict Roman
emperors and Greek kings. There's a there's

1084
01:25:18.119 --> 01:25:23.079
a solid granite bust of Alexander the
Great there. And so one of the

1085
01:25:23.079 --> 01:25:28.840
things I've been researching, I just
started this series on YouTube called Alexandria is

1086
01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:35.760
kind of investigating this possibility that I
think that that Greco Roman Egyptians that are

1087
01:25:35.800 --> 01:25:40.520
all living in Alexandria, and Alexandria
is a lost city. It's completely covered

1088
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:44.840
up completely destroyed. It was destroyed
multiple times in antiquity. It's under most

1089
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:48.760
of it's underwater too. Yeah,
and I think that they were working with

1090
01:25:48.960 --> 01:25:54.399
the Egyptians, and I think that
they re engineered, rediscovered a lot of

1091
01:25:54.560 --> 01:25:59.760
forms of ancient techniques, ancient technology, ancient machining of some kind. And

1092
01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:03.760
we're able to reproduce a lot of
artifacts that we saw in the earliest periods

1093
01:26:03.760 --> 01:26:09.399
of ancient Egypt. But we don't
really have much of an image of the

1094
01:26:09.520 --> 01:26:13.119
end of Egypt because the whole city
is gone and a lot of the artifacts

1095
01:26:13.119 --> 01:26:16.279
are still under the ground. And
Alexandria is one of the most heavily looted

1096
01:26:16.439 --> 01:26:20.039
cities that ever existed, so you
know, a lot of these artifacts don't

1097
01:26:20.039 --> 01:26:23.680
even exist. So I think that
that's a really interesting area of study.

1098
01:26:24.199 --> 01:26:27.960
Final thing I'll say is one of
the things I'm inted in doing is taking

1099
01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:30.880
people. When you were talking about
the Cairo Museum being one of the biggest

1100
01:26:30.920 --> 01:26:36.760
collections in the world, did you
know that the Boston Museum has it's either

1101
01:26:36.920 --> 01:26:45.800
forty or seventy thousand Egyptian artifacts And
there are three museums around Boston and two

1102
01:26:45.960 --> 01:26:53.479
museums in New York that have huge
collections of Egyptian artifacts, and I was

1103
01:26:53.520 --> 01:26:58.560
thinking about possibly twenty twenty five doing
an American egypt tour, you know,

1104
01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:02.279
something that's not too expensive, but
you know, maybe something over spring break

1105
01:27:02.319 --> 01:27:05.960
where you know, everyone flies in
or drives up to Boston. We all

1106
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:10.720
get together and we go to these
different museums and see all the artifacts that

1107
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:14.239
are there. And they have tons
of vases there. They have thousands of

1108
01:27:14.279 --> 01:27:18.079
vases collectively in all these museums and
clouds a stone vases you mean, yes,

1109
01:27:18.279 --> 01:27:23.000
yeah, yeah, there there are
two in the in the museum here

1110
01:27:23.000 --> 01:27:26.520
in San Antonio. They're everywhere.
There are tens of thousands, maybe over

1111
01:27:26.560 --> 01:27:30.960
one hundred thousands of these vases in
the world. And so yeah, I

1112
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:32.560
want to do something like that.
I think that'd be pretty fun, very

1113
01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:36.399
cool. Hey man, it's been
a pleasure. Let's do it again sometime

1114
01:27:36.479 --> 01:27:42.960
in the future. I think at
some point you should start maybe and this

1115
01:27:43.079 --> 01:27:45.920
is always a lot because I'm writing. I have two books that are due.

1116
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:51.800
But you know, you might think
of your point of view and you

1117
01:27:51.840 --> 01:27:55.840
know, do an e book or
something, because it'd be fun to get

1118
01:27:55.880 --> 01:27:59.960
your points of view. You have
a real fresh perspective that I think people

1119
01:28:00.119 --> 01:28:02.079
need to hear from. Tell you
what, I will show you something right

1120
01:28:02.159 --> 01:28:08.439
now that I'm working on that I
have never announced anywhere else. That is

1121
01:28:08.439 --> 01:28:11.399
a book I'm writing. I don't
know that. I don't know if it's

1122
01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:15.720
backwards, but Atlantis, I didn't
see it. The Atlantis of the Atlantis

1123
01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:19.640
of one's own. Wow. Yeah, and Atlantis of one's own And it's

1124
01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:28.039
and it's basically it's basically covering the
two thousand year search for Atlantis and you

1125
01:28:28.039 --> 01:28:31.920
know, all the way back from
the time, all the way basically basically,

1126
01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:35.680
you know, beginning with Plato,
and it's covering all the people who

1127
01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:41.199
have searched for Atlantis. And and
eventually it comes to a point where I

1128
01:28:41.239 --> 01:28:45.279
think that everyone now, because it's
such a popular idea, everybody has their

1129
01:28:45.279 --> 01:28:49.279
own idea of what Atlantis is.
And it's kind of a collection of the

1130
01:28:49.359 --> 01:28:51.880
evidence and a collection of the people
who have searched for it. And that's

1131
01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:58.840
why it's called an Atlantis of one's
own, because now it's become so mythological

1132
01:28:58.920 --> 01:29:00.840
and it's so ingreded. You know, it's an important aspect. It's like

1133
01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:04.319
a cornerstone of society now, and
that's kind of what the book is,

1134
01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:08.640
just exploring that when you're ready to
release it, let's have you back,

1135
01:29:08.680 --> 01:29:11.520
man, let's have you back.
Yeah, yeah, promote it. Yeah,

1136
01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:14.079
that one will be a while.
There's there's a book that I've already

1137
01:29:14.079 --> 01:29:16.880
announced. I'll show you on here, but there's a book I've already announced.

1138
01:29:16.920 --> 01:29:20.159
It's called The ole mech Enigma.
Oh cool, And so that's just

1139
01:29:20.399 --> 01:29:24.279
that's just investigating the old mix that'll
probably be out twenty twenty five. Is

1140
01:29:24.279 --> 01:29:27.680
that an e book or is that
going to be hard? Yeah, it'll

1141
01:29:27.680 --> 01:29:30.880
it'll it'll be it'll be paperback,
paperback and ebook and then I'm going to

1142
01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:36.159
I'm going to read the the audiobook
too, so self published, self published.

1143
01:29:36.199 --> 01:29:41.199
Yeah cool, excellent. Congratulations man, Yeah, all right, we'll

1144
01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:44.359
have to have you back. Hey, look, really appreciate your time.

1145
01:29:44.640 --> 01:29:47.079
And uh, we'll connect and hopefully
we'll meet one of these days at one

1146
01:29:47.079 --> 01:29:51.319
of these conferences or perhaps I'll be
at Sea Pack if you'll be there.

1147
01:29:54.199 --> 01:29:56.840
I think I might. Are you
speaking at Sea Pack? I am?

1148
01:29:57.039 --> 01:30:00.479
I think we're gonna be there.
It's going to be in the a city,

1149
01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:02.960
which is not too far from where
I live here in the Bay Area.

1150
01:30:03.359 --> 01:30:06.720
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, very cool. Hey,

1151
01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:12.680
well again, thanks for your time
and uh great having you on the program.

1152
01:30:13.000 --> 01:30:14.720
Yeah, man, hey, thank
you so much. It's been a

1153
01:30:14.720 --> 01:30:17.520
pleasure and it's an honor. You're
you're you're like a cornerstone of this ancient

1154
01:30:17.640 --> 01:30:21.520
mystery, uh you know genre,
and so I appreciate it. I really

1155
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:31.079
do. Oh that was fun.
It's good to speak with him and really

1156
01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:34.600
got a sense of what his interest
is, which is what I wanted to

1157
01:30:34.680 --> 01:30:41.760
know, because you know, you
look at his YouTube channel and his his

1158
01:30:42.079 --> 01:30:48.640
commentaries are right on. They're not
flippant, they're they're not directed to hurt

1159
01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:59.079
or defame anyone. He's just once
he's just presenting his view or a review

1160
01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:05.600
of you know, various people who
claim to be experts and claim alternative versus

1161
01:31:05.800 --> 01:31:12.359
traditional history. This is what Earth
Ancients is all about. I have questioned

1162
01:31:12.720 --> 01:31:15.199
a great deal of history since I
was a kid, and it looks like

1163
01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:19.399
he does too. So we're a
good fit. Two peas in a pod,

1164
01:31:19.520 --> 01:31:24.079
so to speak. Anyhow, I
hope you enjoyed that, and I'm

1165
01:31:24.079 --> 01:31:28.880
definitely gonna have look back. And
it looks like he may be part of

1166
01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:33.479
a couple of our tours, so
be listening for upcoming tour programs. And

1167
01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:40.239
by the way, this coming week
we are announcing and it's almost full,

1168
01:31:40.319 --> 01:31:46.720
but we're announcing our two thousand and
twenty five March Easter Island tour led by

1169
01:31:46.760 --> 01:31:53.640
doctor Edwin Barnhardt, and we're just
about ready to release the data. If

1170
01:31:53.680 --> 01:31:57.199
you're interested in that tour, send
me an email. Send it to Earth

1171
01:31:57.199 --> 01:32:00.359
Ancients the number four of the letter
you at gmail dot com, and I'll

1172
01:32:00.359 --> 01:32:03.279
put you on the list to get
details. I think we're full, but

1173
01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:09.239
sending to your stuff anyhow, because
people are you know, could be a

1174
01:32:09.560 --> 01:32:13.039
conflicted time. This happens all the
time. We get a list of people

1175
01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:15.640
who want to come to a specific
tour and all of a sudden they're like,

1176
01:32:16.079 --> 01:32:18.680
well, you know, I can't. My mom's not feeling good.

1177
01:32:18.680 --> 01:32:23.079
I gotta stick around. Or I
thought I could get the time off and

1178
01:32:23.159 --> 01:32:26.239
I can't. So we're taking a
small group. I don't think we're going

1179
01:32:26.319 --> 01:32:31.119
to go over thirty people, and
I think we have twenty five. I

1180
01:32:31.119 --> 01:32:36.439
don't know. We're very close to
making our tour numbers, but anyhow,

1181
01:32:36.479 --> 01:32:43.920
so we'll be announcing our tour schedule. We're not going to Egypt in twenty

1182
01:32:43.960 --> 01:32:46.359
twenty five. We're going to be
in Easter Island. We are going to

1183
01:32:46.399 --> 01:32:49.840
be in Guatemala, we are probably
going to be back in Turkey. So

1184
01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:54.079
that's the three tours a year for
me. That's about it. That's about

1185
01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:57.439
all I can do. I don't
have the time to do anything more than

1186
01:32:57.439 --> 01:33:01.840
that. So anyhow, we'll see
look again in the near future. So

1187
01:33:03.279 --> 01:33:08.199
fun having them on the program.
And check out Luke Cavern's on YouTube.

1188
01:33:08.239 --> 01:33:12.960
His YouTube channel is very well put
together. He's got good editing quality that

1189
01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:17.399
sounds great, the backgrounds are great, and I appreciate his point of view,

1190
01:33:18.279 --> 01:33:24.880
so I think you might too.
Hey, if you're enjoying Earth Ancients

1191
01:33:24.880 --> 01:33:32.039
and Destiny and our special edition programming, please consider becoming a subscriber of Patreon.

1192
01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:35.399
For as little as five dollars a
month. You can support the work

1193
01:33:35.439 --> 01:33:40.359
we do here. And I gotta
tell you it is not only time consuming,

1194
01:33:40.399 --> 01:33:45.119
but it's expensive to produce these shows, and your subscription of five,

1195
01:33:45.319 --> 01:33:49.880
ten, fifteen, even twenty dollars
makes a huge difference. To become a

1196
01:33:49.920 --> 01:33:58.000
subscriber, go to Patreon. That's
pa Treo n dot com. Forward Slash

1197
01:33:58.079 --> 01:34:00.720
Earth Ancients and become a subscriber.
We've got a ton of gifts for you.

1198
01:34:01.279 --> 01:34:05.800
Every twenty to thirty days, I
post a new ebook. We've got

1199
01:34:05.800 --> 01:34:11.079
a new one up there, just
posted it and these are thank yous from

1200
01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:17.439
our various authors who are on our
program. And there's also unpublished interviews,

1201
01:34:17.600 --> 01:34:23.800
and there are some some galleries and
other content that is kind of interesting.

1202
01:34:24.159 --> 01:34:28.520
I'm gonna be launching a chat once
a month. I'll meet with everyone on

1203
01:34:28.600 --> 01:34:32.039
the platform and just kind of talk
about what's going on, what's on your

1204
01:34:32.119 --> 01:34:35.680
mind, and so forth and so
on. Again. Help us out.

1205
01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:44.720
Become a subscriber. Go to patreon
dot com Forward Slash Earth Ancients. Okay,

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that's it for today's program. I
want to thank my guest today,

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Luke Caravans, coming to us from
Texas as always the team of Ruth Thomas,

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Mark Foster, and everyone who makes
this thing happen. You guys rock

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all right, take care of you
well, and we will talk to you again.