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You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio
Network, the best in paranormal talk radio

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in the UK and around the world. Hey everybody, we're here, Alive

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and Thrive in Toronto, home of
Blue Jays, Raptors, Made Beliefs and

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Canadian psychic Robert nncy Melon. Welcome
to My Side of the Crystal Ball.

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This is episode number twenty five,
and incidentally, episode number one was launched

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on August the twenty fifth, two
thousand and twenty one. Yes, indeed,

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we're celebrating our first anniversary. Thank
you for your support, Thank you

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for watching. It's been a special
experience. We're not stopping here and we

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have some ideas and goals already set
for what My Side of the Crystal Ball

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will be like over the coming year. My guest tonight, and we're going

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to be continuing having our fascinating guests
as always. My guest tonight is Rebecca

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F. Pitman, and Rebecca is
one of the most fascinating people that I've

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met, and I meet lots and
lots of fascinating people these days. She

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has been involved in so many things
and successful at almost all of them.

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I could spend the whole show talking
about that, but what we're going to

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focus on is her success as a
mystery writer, a researcher and a studier

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of crimes, murders and all that
type of thing. This is just a

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small part of her work, but
this is what we're going to be concentrating

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about tonight, and we're going to
be specifically focusing on the history and UH

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haunting series of books that she's written. And in that series there are seven

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uh total books, including Lizzie Borden
as well as The Salem which massacres and

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we'll be discussing that soon. But
before we go on to w w RS,

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I have a couple of requests.
If you're watching us on YouTube,

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please like comment. I'm going to
say something and about about the show.

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If you like it or what you
would like to hear, or you know

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how we could improve it, you
know, make a comment and subscribe to

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the chain and if you do,
what that does is it helps us get

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ready for another year down the road
as well. You can find us as

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well on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, and pretty much anywhere else that you

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get your podcasts. If you would
like to get in touch with me personally,

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you can find me on Facebook,
Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. You

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can find my website www dot Robert
Lindseymilne dot com. And now let's hear

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another version of ww RS. Somewhere
in the nineteen mid nineteen seventies, there

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was an organization in Toronto called the
New Wage Center, and we have centers

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across the country as well, but
Toronto was the you know, the head

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office. In those very very early
days. There was a fellow there,

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a man. His name was Michael
Blake Read. Michael was just a bit

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older than I am, or I
was at the time, and he was

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a trance psychic. I was what
they called him the cold side. I

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used to not use a medium,
et cetera, et cetera. Michael would

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go into trance with the help of
his assistant, he would go down into

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a very very deep trance. And
a group of perfect entities, about sixty

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five hundred and seven thousand formed a
collective group called the Evergreens, and this

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group spoke through Michael. That group, the Evergreens, had a huge impact

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on a whole generation of people.
I indeed was one of them. One

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of the things, one of the
tens of thousands of things that the Evergreens

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did is they created what was called
the living philosophy of the Evergreants. And

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I'd like to share that philosophy with
you now today on this podcast. And

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it starts off with I am the
result of me. I am more,

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I am nevertheless. I discover newness
about me each and every day. I

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act because in action is decay.
I speak because the words need to be

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said. I am the right person. I have no enemies, only friends

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I have yet to meet. I
have no master but myself. I surround

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myself in eternity. Eternity I command. I exist in the now, the

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past, the present, and the
future. I have no limits, no

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bounds, no ends. Rebecca F. Heitman is a best selling author in

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several genres. Her popular history and
haunting series of books have been spotlighted on

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various TV, radio and podcast forms, and I happen to know some of

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those shows and appearances are on the
biggest and the best ones around. She's

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a former TV talk show host herself, a muralist, an escape an escape

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room owner will have to talk about
that. I think a game creator and

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a runway model who found who finds
mysteries irresistible. Rebecca welcome to my side

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of the Crystal Ball. I am
so happy that you have agreed to join

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me on our show today. By
the way, it's our first year anniversary,

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so welcome to the celebrations. Thank
you. I'm very honored to be

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celebrating one year with you, Robert. That's awesome. It's fascinating what you've

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studied throughout your life. When you
were a girl, did you think about

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psychic things and spirits and goblins and
witches and narcissists and did you think about

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those things when you were a kid. Yeah, because my mother had some

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psychic ability that I was was jealous
of. It wasn't in your face,

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but it was pretty impression she needed
when she needed it. It was there,

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well, it wasn't an on demand
thing. Just a quick example.

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My sister and I are year apart. I think I was seven, Marlena

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was six. We were riding in
a car with our mom in California and

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she suddenly swerved off the road,
burst out crying and said, my mom

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just died. Wow. And that's
way before cell phones. And I thought

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she I thought she'd hit an animal. She's swerved over and burst out crying,

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and we were only five minutes from
her brother's house, my uncle,

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and when we pulled up, he
came out the door crying, saying,

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Sis, mom just died. So
those things stay with you. And there

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were other things that she did.
So I learned early on there's more out

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there than I knew. Do you
have any of those senses? I don't

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think I do. But because every
one of the historic counted landmarks I write

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about the quite a bit of stuff
happens to me. People have wondered if

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I'm sensitive to it. They find
me a kindred spirit because I'm so sentimental

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Robert, if I'm around the ghost, I'm going come tell me what happened

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to you. So I don't know
if that's what's happening. I've never thought

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I had any special ability really,
other than I care a lot about people.

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You have had a really fascinating life
doing so many things, and writing

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seems to be one of your big
interests. When did you decide you could

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be a writer. Oh, I've
been writing since I was eight, just

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a little short stories and stuff.
But I was also drawing since I was

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eight, and my first career was
painting wall murals. I've painted over four

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thousand wall murals across really wow.
I have a few in celebrities homes and

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it was really good to me.
So my first book was how to start

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a faux painting or mural business.
So there wasn't a book out there.

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I couldn't figure out what the correlation
was to where I come from, and

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I am psychic, so that that
took off. I landed a publisher.

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I was Simon and Schuster. I
was shocked that there was no other book

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on how to do it, and
murals and faux painting were really taking off.

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And then they came back and said
what else you got, And I

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said, well, scrap booking's going
through the roof. So they had me

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write that. And then I lived
thirty five minutes from the Stanley Hotel,

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and every time I was up there, I marveled that there wasn't a comprehensive

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book about this incredible place. That
not only was it Epos Stanley that invented

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the Stanley Steamer motor car, but
then it inspired Stephen King to write The

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Shining. So I asked the owner, can I write a book? He

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went sure. So while I'm writing
that, somebody said, have you heard

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of the Myrtle's Plantation. And while
I'm writing that, my sister said,

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have you heard of went Mansion?
And it just it just went from there.

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And how did you hear about Lizzie
Borden? That's fascinating me since junior

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high and so I started looking into
that fairly quickly after you were just a

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kid. How did you hear of
Rizall? That she was still pretty well

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known then? In fact, it
shocks me today that some of the younger

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people go who So I, yeah, yeah, who is she? But

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when you're going through and you're looking
for more haunted places to write about,

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and I always pick historic landmarks that
are fascinating in their own right, not

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just because they're haunted. And the
Lizzyboard and Bed and Breakfast kept popping up,

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and I thought, I have always
been interested in that story, and

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I got permission from the owners and
just five years on it what sorry,

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you got permission from the owners of
the Lizzieboard and Bed and Breakfast where the

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murders happened. It is a place
you can spend the night, really,

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and people do that. They do
that a lot. Wow, They're very

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popular. In fact, the most
requested room is the room where the stepmother

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was hatcheted. Today you found out
some new information. Now maybe maybe not.

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So you know, we do have
a younger crowd watching this this podcast.

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Do you want to tell us who
Lizzie Borden is or was? Sure?

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In eighteen ninety two, Andrew and
Abby Borden were found hatcheted to death.

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That means in the home, I'm
sorry, that means chopped up right,

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chopped up with a hatchet. And
it was in the middle of the

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day. It was eleven thirty in
the afternoon on a very busy street.

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Their house was part part residential,
part commercial, lot of noise. This

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is eighteen ninety two, sure,
picture clip clopping horses and all of that.

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And the only two people that were
home when they were murdered was Lizzie

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Borden, who was a thirty two
year old spinster at that point, and

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the maid Bridget, who had been
cleaning windows outside during the time Abby was

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murdered. And Abby was she received
eleven blows to the head and back in

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the upstairs guest room, and then
an hour and a half later. That's

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what's so interesting. When Andrew that
Lizzie's dad came home for lunch, he

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got murdered, and so the whole
thing was so implausible. How would a

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killer come in to that small house
nobody seem and kill Abby? Would he

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really wait around an hour and a
half and wait for Andrew to come home

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and kill Andrew? And there were
no real places to hide in that house.

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All of the rooms connected to each
other, there were no hallways,

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there were locks everywhere on the doors. And so Lizzie went to trial for

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the murders because she was also very
conflicting in her report. Do you think

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that she was deliberately waiting for her
dad to come home or was it a

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spur of the moment, like,
oh my god, what did I do

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to my mother? Oh? I
got to do that, or I'm going

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to get caught or well? Or
did she say that? Omar? What

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was going to happen that morning at
ten o'clock as Andrew was sending someone to

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pick Abby up the stepmother to take
her to the bank to sign over a

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land deed that would have disinherited Lizzie
and her sister of over two hundred and

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fifty acres of prime real estate.
Okay, and she needed to kill Abby

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before the guy came to pick her
up. And so once Abby's dead,

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the obstacles out of the way,
Lizzie's still in the will and she was

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trying to get the maid out of
the house before her dad came home.

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And the maid wasn't feeling well and
wouldn't go. And Andrew came home early.

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He normally came home at eleven.
He came home at twenty to eleven.

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And now she's stuck. She got
a dead Abby upstairs, and I

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don't think she really wanted to kill
him, and at that point she was

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there was no way out. He
would have known her. Yeah, she

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hated her step mom and it was
well known she hated her step mom.

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So and then and then she just
killed her father. Yeah, he got

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I got that backwards. Abby got
eighteen blows to the head, Andrew got

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eleven. What she must have been
a angry Do you think she was angry

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or was it just like a machine? I think with Abby, I think

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it was the rage that came out
and just literally overkilled if you pardoned the

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punt. But she also needed to
look like a maniac had done this right.

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And so now if you've got Abby
up there with eighteen blows, that

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practically obliterated the right side of her
head. You can't just give your dad

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a couple or it's going to look
su It's going to look like the same

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maniac did both of them. And
I'm sure that was really hard for her.

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She loved her dad at one point, and I think that the emotions

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that she probably went through had to
be horrendous. And you studied this book

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or wrote this book. It took
five years. Well, there's there were

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four trials, so there's really I
read over five thousand pages of trial transcripts

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the Corner Repards. Lizzie Borden had
twelve, sorry, four trials. Is

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that because there were mistrials or or
no? It was the proceedings. The

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first one was a request, which
they always do, right, Okay.

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They found her probably guilty, put
her in jail, held her over for

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the preliminary hearing. After the preliminary
hearing, they took it before grand jury,

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and the grand jury decided it can
go to the Superior court for trial.

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So she spent ten months altogether in
jail waiting for all of these things

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to go through. I see,
okay, wow, though, what was

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it like having her in your head
all that time? Did it affect your

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life or did it affect your behavior
or your moods? No? The last

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book I wrote on Pam Huff,
the serial killer in Saint Louis did did

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that? Yeah? Getting inside Pam
Huff's Head's not where you want to be.

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I haven't heard of this one.
Pam Huff, pup Hupp. Renes

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Elwiger just played her this year in
an NBC mini series called The Thing About

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Pam. I was co produced with
Dateline and Blue House and Renees Elwigger heard

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about Pam Hupp and said, I've
got to do this movie. So what

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is? What did she do?
Oh? Do you really want to know

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this part? Oh? Okay,
well, no, it's okay. We

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can talk about the Salem Witches.
Well, basically, she knifed her best

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friend fifty six times to get one
hundred and fifty thousand dollars of her wife

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insurance money. Male or female,
it was her best friend was female,

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Betsy. Not only did she kill
her in that manner to get the one

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hundred and fifty thousand dollars, she
set the stage so it would look like

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Betsy's husband and did it so she
framed that poor man dipped his slippers in

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his wife's blood, planted those in
the closet, did all this other stuff,

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and he went to prison for three
and a half years for something he

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didn't do. Then when they found
out they got him a second trial that

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they let him go. They acquitted
him, and his lawyer made it clear,

206
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I'm coming after Pam. She not
only benefited from the life insurance money,

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she was the last person to see
Betsy alive. And so Pam went

208
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out and trolled the trailer park and
started trying to find somebody to lure them

209
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to her house to shoot them.
And basically she was posing as a dateline

210
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,880
producer and said, if you'll come
with me in the car and do a

211
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,680
sound bite for a fake nine one
one call, I'll give you a thousand

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00:20:53,759 --> 00:20:59,519
dollars. Two people turned her down, and she finally found this poor guy,

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Lewis S. Gumpenberger, who had
been in a car wreck and had

214
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,200
the mentality of a twelve year old. He was disabled, barely, he

215
00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:14,079
limped, he couldn't drive, and
he bought it. He got in her

216
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car. She took him to her
house and told him what to do for

217
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,319
a nine one one call, But
she actually called nine one one so they

218
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:27,279
could hear it as that was her
alibi, was the nine one one dispatch,

219
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,599
help help, someone's broken in my
house. And then you hear her

220
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,720
shoot him five times dead and in
his pocket was a note that she wrote

221
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that was supposed to look like Russ, the man who'd been in prison,

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Betsy's husband, that Russ had sent
him to kill her. That was her

223
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,079
plan, was to get Russ put
back in prison so they wouldn't come after

224
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her anymore. So she just found
a perfect stranger and moding down. And

225
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then in the meantime, she pushed
her mother off the third floor balcony to

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get her insurance money and killed her. That's that. That one kept me

227
00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:15,400
up a lot. It's three or
four innocent people for their insurance. There's

228
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three, but I'm thinking there may
be a victim in Florida and I've been

229
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working on that trying to find that. So in the story, that's incredible.

230
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It's just incredible the coldness of it. And two of the deaths were

231
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for money. So the killing Lewis
Gumpenberger was just to get the heat off

232
00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:44,519
of herself and put rust back in
prison. Total stranger. That's kind of

233
00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:52,880
that diabolical. Yeah, wow,
are you so you're still working on that

234
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,359
crime? Well, I am,
because the she's in prison for Lewis Gumpenberger,

235
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,640
but they're now taking her to trial
for killing Betsy Feria finally her friends,

236
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and so that trial is still coming
up, and there'll be a sequel

237
00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:18,000
to the book. So the books
call countdown to murder, Pam hub Will

238
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,720
you go to the trial? Oh
yes, Oh yeah, you get You'll

239
00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,319
get in and and and be there. Yeah. I've been lucky enough to

240
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:33,000
work with the prosecutors and the detectives
and they've become very, very dear to

241
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:40,559
me. They've they've been so amazingly
kind and yeah, they've they've told me

242
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:48,119
I'm welcome to come. So that's
really fascinating, and congratulations on gaining that

243
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,680
trust. Thank you. I actually
did a TV show with all of them

244
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:59,519
in Saint Louis, and I was
so tickled that they all came. It

245
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,119
was time that all of them that
have worked on these different cases were in

246
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,720
one room and that we could talk
about all of it, and it was

247
00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:11,880
that'll be one of the highlights of
my life. They're amazing men, and

248
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:18,559
they have worked so hard on all
of this and that's going to be the

249
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:25,680
sequel to the book that you've already
written. Yes, so when the trial's

250
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,319
over, there'll be a sequel.
So what what's that book called that we're

251
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,359
just talking about again? You want
to say it? Sure? Count down

252
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,960
to Murder, Pam hub It's on
Amazon, is it? And your book

253
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:45,480
about Lizzie bordon on Amazon too.
Yes, that's in the History and Haunting

254
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,119
series. I read. I wrote
six books in the History and Haunting series,

255
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:55,079
so it's the History and Haunting of
Lizzie Borden and those are all historic

256
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,599
places like the Stanley Hotel that happened
to be in the top ten most haunted

257
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,319
place is in America. So three
quarters of the book is either the case,

258
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000
the person, the event, the
building, and then the last portion

259
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,839
of it is the paranormal activity that
goes on there today in the buildings where

260
00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:19,799
those events occurred. And with all
of the books or well, I don't

261
00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:23,720
know if you have you been to
Verse I to do that research physically,

262
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,839
yeah, covid hit Oh no,
really, ye had the passport, had

263
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:34,960
the contacts, so I had to
and it's a big book. I had

264
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:41,359
to go ahead and write it with
interviews from home and put it all together.

265
00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,720
I am going next year and I
can't wait. It'll be amazing to

266
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:56,599
see it. Another one you wrote
in that series was about the Salem massacres.

267
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:03,720
Yes, not that many people really
know what went on. Most know

268
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:11,079
that witches got hung or killed,
and a lot of people thought or sink

269
00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:17,160
which has got burned at the stake. And not that many people really know

270
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:22,279
what happened in Salem. And that
was in the late sixteen hundreds, yes,

271
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:26,920
sixteen ninety two. What happened.
You have to look at it in

272
00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:32,640
context of the perfect storm of events. Okay, if you had taken away

273
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,559
one element that happened, it may
not have happened. Okay, But you

274
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,400
have to understand that these were these
the Puritans or the Pilgrims coming over from

275
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,480
England, and in England they were
burning witches by the hundreds, so it

276
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:53,640
was normal there. You accepted that
there are witches, and so these people

277
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had come from I mean, this
was real. So now they're in Massachusetts

278
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:08,319
and they're forming this perfect community.
But that perfect community was also so constricted

279
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:14,839
with its religious beliefs. All you've
heard at church was the devil is real,

280
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,039
and you're all going to help,
right, Well, there was this,

281
00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:22,920
and especially for the girls who were
a lot of them were coming into

282
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:27,119
puberty and their hormones are raging,
and yet there's no release for it.

283
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,920
You're not supposed to sing, you're
not supposed to dance. The days were

284
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:37,440
just yeah, the days were complete
drudgery. All they did was work.

285
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,160
You made the bread, then you
did it again at noon, then you

286
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,519
did it, I mean, and
so for girl. And at that time,

287
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,799
children were to be seen and not
heard. They were at the bottom

288
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:51,640
of the totem pole. If you
mauthed off, your parents would say you're

289
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,599
going to hell. You're Satan's child. So there was no release for all

290
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:04,720
of this. So what happened was
Reverend Paris was the new reverend and from

291
00:28:04,759 --> 00:28:11,599
England, and he's the new pastor
coming to Yes, he's a new reverend.

292
00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,799
And they'd already gone through too that
they'd basically just run out of town.

293
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,799
This was not a happy village.
These were backbiting, These were neighbors

294
00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:29,319
fighting. There was a lot of
tension. So what happened was Reverend Paris

295
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,559
had brought Titchiba with him when he
lived in the Honduras. She was a

296
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:37,039
lot of people go back and forth
whether she was black. I believe she

297
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:45,920
was of Indian descent Native American,
and she basically took care of the kids

298
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:49,799
because Reverend Paris's wife, Elizabeth,
was sickly and was in bed a lot,

299
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,000
and it was Titchiba who sang them
songs at night and cared for them.

300
00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,759
And little Betty Paris, the reverend's
daughter, who is not was very

301
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:04,359
very close to her. The other
daughter, the other young woman in the

302
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,000
house, was Abigail Williams, who
was eleven. And so anyway, what

303
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:17,359
happened was the Titchuba was just every
once in a while she'd tell them about

304
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,680
magic, and they said, show
us something, show us something. So

305
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,279
it was called the Venus glass.
So what it was was a glass of

306
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:29,519
water and you would break an egg
white into it and stir it just a

307
00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:33,039
little and whatever that, you know, the albumen or what the white from

308
00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:38,960
the egg would show. It would
form a shape of what your husband's occupation

309
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,559
was going to be. Because to
those girls, that was everything. You

310
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,839
needed a rich husband, You needed
a good husband to get out of the

311
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,839
drudgery that you've experienced your whole life. I'd like to tell you about the

312
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,440
Venus glass. When I was a
child, I was homeless, and I

313
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:02,920
got off the streets by working.
I had a tea room doing psychic readings

314
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,200
and card readings. And at the
Cozy t I was fifteen and a half.

315
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,680
And at the cozy tea room where
I was, they had this thing

316
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:18,519
called an egg white reading. And
what they would do is they'd get a

317
00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:22,160
glass of water, warm water,
and put an egg white in and stir

318
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,319
it up a little bit and give
it to the clients and the customer and

319
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,160
they and they would do a reading
from it. And that's the only other

320
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,759
time I've ever heard of what you're
just talking too. Yeah, but I've

321
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:37,200
heard that's exactly it. But it
took the when they stirred it, when

322
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,720
Titcha was stirred it, it took
the shape of a coffin. And because

323
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,359
these girls, their dad was the
reverend, if he found out they were

324
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:55,000
dealing with this stuff, or it
was a perceived coffin, right, Okay,

325
00:30:55,759 --> 00:31:00,279
So anyway, Betty, the nine
year old, was very high strung

326
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:06,200
and a very sensitive little girl,
and when she saw the coffin shape,

327
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,640
she thought it was satan, it
was the devil because they've been conjuring,

328
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:17,799
so to speak. And she started
going into little fits and when the adults

329
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:22,680
started noticing, I mean she was
she tied under the table and she was

330
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,079
shaking, or she just sticks.
She's one of those personalities that took on

331
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:32,160
the oh my gosh, you know, Satan's in me kind of thing.

332
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,960
Well, when Abigail, who is
eleven, she's two years older than her

333
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:42,240
little cousin, sees all the attention
Betty's getting because suddenly these girls who have

334
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:48,200
always been invisible have adults listening to
them. What's wrong? What's going on?

335
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,359
Are you? You know? So
Abigail starts acting in fits, starts

336
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,599
barking like a dog, and at
one point grabs the fire sticks out of

337
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,880
the fire they're on fire. She's
throwing them around the room, but one

338
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,400
time she rushes for the fireplace like
she's going to actually leap into it.

339
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,839
And that's how it started. But
Robert, here's the main thing. I

340
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,559
can understand that, I can really
understand how that happened. Can you?

341
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,759
Oh? Absolutely, the kids seen
and not heard, and all of a

342
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:32,440
sudden they get something they can do
that gets them to be the star attraction

343
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,640
exactly. I can see how it
happens. Well, you've also got to

344
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:45,119
add in the fact that these villages
have been decimated by Indian attacks and a

345
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,680
lot of the older girls, by
older, I mean fifteenish, they lost

346
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,000
their families. They witnessed their parents
hacked to death, their little brothers hacked

347
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:59,720
to death, their homes burned down, and they are now almost like in

348
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,079
didn't entered servants living in some of
these other Salem village homes that all they

349
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,880
do is work. So suddenly everybody
wants in on this. Yeah, I

350
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:17,359
can understand that too. And so
here's the turning point. When Betty keeps

351
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:24,400
acting out. They say they were
saying what afflicts thee? And then all

352
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:32,440
of a sudden it switched to who
afflicts thee? It was that one word,

353
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,920
and she was frightened and looked over
at Titchuburah held out her hands and

354
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:44,000
went Tituba and they went Tituba.
And she was an easy one because she

355
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:49,160
was colored. She was not you
know, people didn't quite understand her way.

356
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:54,359
She had like a foreign accent kind
of thing. And then was like

357
00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:58,920
no, no, no no.
And then they're saying, well, how

358
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,839
about Sarah Good, because Sarah Good
was kind of this. She was she

359
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,800
just was kind of the pimple on
society. She would roam around bed food

360
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,599
was dirty. Nobody wanted her around, and they said, and how about

361
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:22,519
Sarah Osborne who also had a reputation, And there you go. It started

362
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:27,320
with those three. They haul them
off, they put them up on a

363
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,480
on a trial to ask them,
you know, is it satan? Is

364
00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:34,440
that? Why are you doing this? Why are you hurting these girls?

365
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,480
And in the meantime, the other
girls have now come on board and they're

366
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:42,639
acting out and they're getting out of
chores. Robert, not only are they

367
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,239
stars, they don't they're not being
asked to do any of the stuff anymore.

368
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,320
And I think in the beginning they
didn't quite realize what was going to

369
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:58,360
happen because but it's snowballed right,
well, nobody would have understood that then.

370
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,880
So then what happened at this point
was, and this is the insidious

371
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,320
part, was the adults started whispering
in their ears names to call out as

372
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,800
witches. It was people they wanted
to get rid of, a neighbor they

373
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:21,360
didn't like, a boundary dispute,
say her name, she's a witch,

374
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,679
And it just it's it just snowballs, because they were on those children saying

375
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:34,559
she's a witch. Yeah, they
called it calling out and so yeah,

376
00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:38,280
they started just naming names of people
that mainly the adults were wanting to get

377
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:44,280
rid of. And they went to
trial. They found it guilty. In

378
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:50,199
the end, they hung nineteen people
and those girls watched. Did anybody get

379
00:35:52,519 --> 00:36:00,599
judged innocent in those trials or was
everybody guilty? They most of them were

380
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:06,280
found guilty. The one that broke
my heart is Rebecca Nurse because she was

381
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,519
in her seventies, very pious,
wonderful woman. She was very hard of

382
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:15,719
hearing. She was sick when they
drug her in and her bedclothes and she

383
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,920
couldn't hear everything they said, so
she got it wrong or if they asked

384
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,960
her something and she didn't answer,
they turned it against her. But then

385
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:30,880
finally the judge said, you know
what, I don't think she did it.

386
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,840
And this is one of them that
the girls had cried out against,

387
00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:39,480
and it was someone who was a
wealthy landowner and that the parents, a

388
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:45,440
lot of the parents were coveting this
woman's property. And they let the judges

389
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:50,199
let her go. When the girls
threw a fit and that night swore that

390
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,280
the ghost of Rebecca Nurse came in
their room and pinched them and tormented them,

391
00:36:54,840 --> 00:37:00,840
And so they drug her back,
put her in jail and shackles.

392
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:06,480
They believed if you could shackle the
person, their spirit couldn't go out and

393
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:09,159
afflict these girls, because a lot
of them were saying their spirits were coming

394
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:14,400
in through the walls and pinching them
and hurting them. And so they hung

395
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,559
Rebecca Nurse and her sister Mary Esti
and it I actually cried during that part

396
00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:23,960
of the book that that poor woman
got to finally go home after being in

397
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,920
those filthy jail conditions, and four
days later they drug her back and hung

398
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,880
her. Wow, how did it
stop? It got happened? And four

399
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:45,199
people got put in jail, one
hundred and fifty four. And how many

400
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,719
of those one fifty four or ballpark
number were women or most of them?

401
00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:54,719
Most of them? The men were
called warlocks. I would say the majority

402
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,800
of by far, the majority of
them were women. But you talked about

403
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:06,000
superstars. They actually put these girls
in a cart and drove them from town

404
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:10,639
to town to point out which is
they saw there. They took them into

405
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,519
Topsfield and Beverly, and they said, who else do you see? Oh?

406
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:19,880
Her, her. So they ended
up with one hundred and fifty four

407
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,599
people. And when I say that
the conditions and these jails were awful,

408
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:29,960
it was beyond belief. And in
the winter's no heat, they sat in

409
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:37,280
straw in their own exceriment. It
was just horrible. So, to answer

410
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,280
your question, it kept going until
finally they cried out against the governor's wife

411
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,280
and he went, okay, we're
done. Okay, it's over now.

412
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:50,679
Yeah, that's it. It's good. You know. That's kind of similar

413
00:38:50,760 --> 00:39:00,440
to the guy, the American senator
McCarthy. Yeah, and all of a

414
00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:06,280
sudden it was over just how do
you know, shame sir, And it

415
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:13,599
was over all those people blacklisted in
Hollywood communists. Yeah. In fact,

416
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,719
Arthur Miller when he wrote The Crucible
about Salem, it wasn't really it was

417
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:24,760
a tongue in cheeks stab at McCarthyism. So that was it that parallel,

418
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:31,679
Because that's exactly right. Yeah,
I'm really blown away by what you're saying.

419
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:39,400
I've known the stories, I'm just
shocked by them. Well, again,

420
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,400
you've got the elements. They also
didn't have a charter. They didn't

421
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,159
have any government, it hadn't come
over from England yet, and someone was

422
00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:55,559
over all that. I understand.
It's just I'm shocked by the barberism of

423
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:05,119
it and people kind doing to other
people the things that we've done and do

424
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:09,000
that. That's what that's what's catching
up to me right now. That's that's

425
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,079
what I've been listening to. And
I'm thinking, well, and the main

426
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:16,639
question is could it happen again today? Yes, and in the right amount

427
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:21,280
of circumstances, I think you could. In the right place, at the

428
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,840
right time, it will will notice
how quickly I answered, Yes, it

429
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:32,000
can happen, and I'm sure there's
been times where it has happened after we

430
00:40:32,159 --> 00:40:37,800
just haven't known or heard about it, or but it's happened. Well.

431
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,960
Hysteria can spread so fast, especially
if it's benefiting you, and that's the

432
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:52,440
sad thing. These hangings were benefiting
these adults and the sheriff, Sheriff Corwin,

433
00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:57,239
once you were found guilty, he
could write out and take all of

434
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,519
your stuff, and he did.
He would write out with carts, take

435
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:06,719
your cattle, your food, your
house. And this guy is making out

436
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:13,199
like a bandit with everybody's belongings.
I mean, it's just this most incredible

437
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:20,000
story. So what happened to these
people? Well, the nineteen were hung.

438
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,559
Giles Corey was crushed to death with
stones because he wouldn't say guilty or

439
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:28,239
not guilty. He wasn't going to
play their game. And then five died

440
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:34,519
in CRUs including a baby. So
the rest of them were finally let go

441
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:39,079
when they cried out against the governor's
wife. And I was asking what happened

442
00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:45,400
to those people that committed those crimes
or did all things. That's what I

443
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:52,760
was what was there any kind of
retribution? No. But then at the

444
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:59,079
end, which was really sad,
two of the older girls, their conscience

445
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:04,440
got hold of and admitted they did
it for sport. And the one girl

446
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,400
said, hey, we have to
have sport, I mean we had to

447
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,320
have a little fun. But one
of them did come back and stand before

448
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:20,920
the courtroom and admit to what she
had done and apologized. Now they were

449
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,599
not formally brought to any charges,
but their lives went down the toilet.

450
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:32,320
A lot of them ended up in
poverty, very very few of them got

451
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:37,920
happily married. A lot of them
just ended up in obscurity or prostitution.

452
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:46,039
They just kind of fell apart,
and the adults that did these things got

453
00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:53,480
not They got away with it.
Yep. Nobody else was ever persecuted for

454
00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:59,079
any of this. It was just
like whoops. It was one of those

455
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:05,599
things that's astonishing, isn't that it
is? And how do you bounce back

456
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,639
from that? This is a small
village. After you've looked at what you've

457
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:14,119
done? How do you trust a
neighbor again? How do you go back

458
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:19,519
to church and read your Bible?
And I wondered about that that happened?

459
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,760
Yeah, how did they go back
to church again? And the minister or

460
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:30,800
the guy that what was in the
man's name Paris? No, they ran

461
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,320
him out of town too. Finally
did he pay any penance other than losing

462
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,960
his job? No? No,
no, that's the thing. I don't

463
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,440
recall reading anything. Finally, years
years, years, years later they did.

464
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:52,119
The government did give some money to
the victims' families. I don't know

465
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:57,320
how you put a price on a
life. But in fact, even today

466
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,840
there's still repaying a few of the
descent and they have now put up a

467
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,320
memorial for them and sale. But
that's about it. They got a few

468
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:15,280
gold sovereigns and it was like,
oop, sorry, that's really profound it.

469
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:20,679
I think that's why people still talk
about it. It's hard to look

470
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,960
away from that and think, could
we really do that again today? Would

471
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,840
we be capable of that? Yes? So long ago? Hasn't been since

472
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,000
lynching stopped? Yeah? Or have
that? Well, we're still dealing with

473
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:44,440
racism. We're still dealing with outbreaks, and I mean how, I don't

474
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,199
know, Robert. It is scary. I think under the right set of

475
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:53,800
circumstances, anything can happen. Yeah, And there's the voyeuristic part of all

476
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,400
of us that you know, whether
you're reading a book, you know,

477
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,840
whether you read a book about Lizzie
or Pam Hup or whatever, you want

478
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,639
to look behind the curtain and see
how can a mentality do this? What

479
00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:14,599
happened to this person that they can
take life like that with so little thought?

480
00:45:14,639 --> 00:45:16,760
You know what I mean? Yes, I do. We're shocked,

481
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,079
but we can't look away. What
do you think we're doing when we do

482
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:25,599
that, When we're seeing something like
that happen and then start studying it or

483
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,000
oh, I didn't mean to be
so personal. What happens to you when

484
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:38,280
you start get really drawn into something
like Salem or Lizzie Borden or the other

485
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,280
woman you're speaking about. What does
that affect your life? Yeah? Or

486
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,320
can you just shut it off?
I don't shut it off. It will

487
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:52,679
make me look at people differently,
it doesn't, you know. I love

488
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,639
research, So for me, I
mean, I'm on to two other stories

489
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,400
now in the countdown to murder theories. But of course it affects you.

490
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:07,760
If it didn't, you've got something
wrong with you. But it's like even

491
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,320
with celebrities, we want to see
how look inside their mansions. We want

492
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,400
to see how the other the other
half lives that's different from us. And

493
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:22,599
when there's an aberration of consciousness,
I think we just want to figure it

494
00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:27,519
out. We want to see what
in the world caused this person, you

495
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:34,079
know, how did they get to
hear there is There was a short TV

496
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:40,039
series. It never made The series
never made it into mainstream, but or

497
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:45,119
like the program didn't make it regularly
in mainstream but on a couple of different

498
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:52,800
occasions, the whole the first year's
episodes were all played one right after the

499
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:58,280
other, and the name of that
is called the Booth at the end,

500
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:06,719
and it takes place inside a restaurant
at the end booth, and there is

501
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:12,800
a guy that sits there and people
come to him and they tell him what

502
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:19,199
they want and what they would like
if they wanted to get something. They

503
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,800
need money, somebody needs help,
whatever it is. They come to this

504
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:30,199
guy and they tell him what they
want. The guy looks inside a book,

505
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,960
old fashioned leather bound book, and
he looks in it, oh,

506
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,559
by the way, and he negotiates
with them exactly what it is that they

507
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,039
want to get. Like this one
woman in that she wants her husband had

508
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:54,039
had developed Alzheimer's and she wanted to
get her husband back. That's what she

509
00:47:54,119 --> 00:48:00,880
wanted from him, and he gave
and she explained it to him. He

510
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,679
negotiated with it, put it in
very clear black and white, what exactly

511
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,960
it is that she wants. Then
he opens the book and says, and

512
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,559
he looks at because he doesn't know
what's written. It's always a surprise to

513
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:19,519
him. He looks what's written and
he gives them a task that they have

514
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:25,239
to perform. Everything happens inside that
restaurant. But the other rule is and

515
00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:32,000
when they complete their task, they
get what they negotiated. The other part

516
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:38,480
of it is they have to come
back and tell him the process that they're

517
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:45,480
going through and why they're doing it. And some of the tasks that people

518
00:48:45,639 --> 00:48:53,320
get are horrible, and they do
them to get what they want. And

519
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:59,519
then there are some tasks where there
was one task where a woman was a

520
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,719
a nun and she had lost her
she couldn't hear God anymore. And her

521
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,280
task was she had to go out
meet a man and get pregnant how to

522
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:17,760
have a baby, and she would
and she would hear God again and and

523
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,519
she and it happened. So there
were several and there was this one,

524
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,639
Now these are software. There was
this one young girl, young woman,

525
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,599
she wanted to be prettier, and
and he negotiated, what does prettier?

526
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:37,199
What does that mean? He negotiates
it and says, okay, then for

527
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:44,599
you you have to, you know, to be prettier, you you have

528
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:50,880
to rob from the bank one hundred
and three thousand and twenty five dollars.

529
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,440
And you know, the girl says, you want me to give you one

530
00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:59,119
hundred thousand, three hundred and twenty
five dollars, And he said, no,

531
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,800
you you have to rob that much. And when you get that much,

532
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:07,239
you will be as pretty as you
want. And she kept coming back

533
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:13,360
in the process and she would describe
to him what she was going through,

534
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,280
how she was going to rob the
bank. And as that process went along,

535
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,480
she got prettier and prettier and prettier
and prettier. Oh my words,

536
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,599
okay, and then and then you
know there so there are some of the

537
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:32,440
lighthearted ones and and like the nerve
or the nun the process that she was

538
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:37,440
going through because she had been she
felt that she had been born to be

539
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:40,360
a nun, and she was a
child when she entered into the convent,

540
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,400
and all of a sudden she lost
her faith. And this has been going

541
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,679
on for years. And you watched
how she was what she was doing to,

542
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:53,519
you know, to to complete the
task, and watched how it happened.

543
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:59,119
It was it was that was pretty
pretty special. No violence occurs,

544
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,079
You don't see anything happen. You
just hear the person talk about their experience.

545
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:08,719
And what they talk about is how
far they will go to get what

546
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:14,039
they want. So it's called the
booth at the end, and if you

547
00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:19,360
google it you might find it really
fascinating. What a fascinating concept. I'm

548
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:25,679
surprised at John and the way the
guy negotiated it was absolutely brilliant, and

549
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:31,400
and he didn't know what was you
know, the tasks were going to be.

550
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,239
But he'd been doing it a long
time, and many times he was

551
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:43,639
detached, you know, and and
sometimes he had no idea how they were

552
00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:46,199
going to handle something, and it
wasn't his job to tell them how to

553
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,840
do it. And he would always
say, you can stop anytime you want.

554
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:59,280
You don't have to do this.
And so it's it's really fascinating the

555
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,960
booth at the end, and then
I'll look it up the second The second

556
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:09,199
season got really dark, but the
first season was was riveting, and I

557
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:15,480
learned so much about negotiating and giving
information without making a commitment. It was

558
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:19,880
brilliant, it was. I learned
so much from that. Yeah, there's

559
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,960
a lot of psychology in that concept, absolutely, and being on the other

560
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:30,920
side. Yeah, So it's all
these remind me of, which is one

561
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:37,320
of the reasons I understood very quickly
what happened with in Salem. That's how

562
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:42,840
come I understood it, just you
know, I understood the concept. Well,

563
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,159
if they had had the law,
it might not have gone that far,

564
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:51,119
but they didn't have the charter.
Which meant they were the judges that

565
00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:55,920
were sitting these cases were ordinary men. Yeah, they just grabbed whoever they

566
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:01,079
could. Some of them had lawyer, you know, lawyer lawyer backgrounds.

567
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:06,519
But back then Harvard, which was
right there in Boston, was not turning

568
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:13,000
out lawyers. It was turning out
clergymen and medical people. So there weren't

569
00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:17,559
really a lot of lawyers. And
so if that charter had been in place,

570
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:22,079
that they've had a governing body that
knew what they were doing, they

571
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,639
may have stopped those trials before they
went as far as they did. So

572
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,239
that's what I mean. It was
a perfect storm. Everything went wrong.

573
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,320
What I was talking about is the
conscious behavior and decisions that people make when

574
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,679
they get when they want to get
something, how far they'll go. That

575
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:44,760
was what I was responding to.
Well, and if you don't have breaks,

576
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,159
if you don't have the mental breaks
that hopefully most of us do.

577
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:54,519
Yeah, everyone's expendable. It's very
scary. Yeah, it's really amazing how

578
00:53:54,559 --> 00:54:06,280
that happens. What's your next fascinating
book or interest that you're going to be

579
00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:10,920
sharing with the world or is there
one yet? Yeah, there's I'm actually

580
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,400
working on three books at once because
I'm pill trying. I'm trying to find

581
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:20,440
if Pam Hubb had another victim in
Florida, and her trial's coming out.

582
00:54:21,559 --> 00:54:25,559
I'm working on another Countdown to Murder, which is Alec, the Alec Murdach

583
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:31,559
case going on right now in South
Carolina. And I'm also working on Harold

584
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:38,119
Henthorne, who pushed his wife off
the cliff and Rocky Mountain National Forest and

585
00:54:38,159 --> 00:54:44,840
they now believe he dropped a jeep
on his first wife. So those two

586
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,920
books are coming out in the Countdown
to Murder series, and then I'm going

587
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,000
to get back to another haunted historic
landmark. But that's what's on the books

588
00:54:54,079 --> 00:55:02,079
right now. So if someone wanted
to start off reading your books, which

589
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:07,239
one would you recommend for them to
begin with or is there one? Which

590
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:14,239
one would you say here's a good
starter? I think Salem. I think

591
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:20,679
yeah, because you not only get
a very comprehensive overview of the well it's

592
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,760
not an overview. It even includes
some of the original trial transcripts. You

593
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:29,480
can see how they wrote back then. But at the end of the book

594
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:32,360
goes into the hauntings that are going
on in Salem, and I have a

595
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:38,360
nod to Hocus Focus and the filming
locations that they did, and the sequel

596
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:43,840
to that movie's coming out this year. So I think Salem would be a

597
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,119
great introduction. You get a sense
of my style, and I love to

598
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:52,519
do in depth interviews with people that
are experts on the subjects. So,

599
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:00,400
and how do people find your books? They're all on Amazon. If you

600
00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:06,199
just type in Rebecca F. As
in Frank Pittman P I T T M

601
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,519
A N on Amazon, all my
books come up. This will be my

602
00:56:09,679 --> 00:56:16,480
sixteenth book coming out, so that's
just easier than listing them all. Congratulations

603
00:56:16,519 --> 00:56:24,840
on all your thank youths, and
what a delightful conversation. Thanks for joining

604
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:30,679
me. Well, you're very articulate
and smart, and that's always fun to

605
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:37,039
talk to somebody on these podcasts that
has the background and your knowledge, So

606
00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:42,920
thank you. I really enjoyed it. Robert, Wow, what another exciting,

607
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:47,880
interesting conversation that I've had tonight.
My special thank you so much to

608
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,880
Rebecca F. Pittman for sharing all
her knowledge, well just a small bit

609
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of her fascinating knowledge. It was
really great. We have to have you

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back on the show again soon for
sure. Before I say goodbye, just

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got a couple of those of old
requests again. If you're watching us on

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00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:15,360
YouTube, please like, comment,
and subscribe to our channel. Subscriptions are

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00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,079
complimentary. That means they're free,
and they're very important to us because it

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00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:22,679
gives us better higher ratings. The
more ratings, the longer we can do

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00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:29,840
my side of the crystal ball.
You can find us on YouTube, Apple,

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00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:36,559
Spotify, and iHeart pretty much anywhere
else that you get your podcasts.

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00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,840
If you'd like to get in touch
with me personally, you can find me

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on my website www dot Robert Lindseymilon
dot com. You can find me on

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Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and
TikTok. And now, just before I

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00:57:52,599 --> 00:58:00,639
say goodbye, as always these words
do good, stay safe above all,

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just because good night everybody,