WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:06.040 And I think this is another insight that's well I have been missing generally is 2 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:10.839 that bitcoin is software. It's not a form of money. It's just software 3 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:16.920 like any other software, and so you can write tools entirely in software to 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.239 address these business needs and also the needs of the merchants. So we have 5 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:25.160 a set of distributors that we're available basically all over the world now in one 6 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:35.159 hundred and ninety countries. This content is brought to you by Uphold, which 7 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.320 is a great crypto platform that I've been using since twenty eighteen. Uphold has 8 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:43.079 all the top cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin and all the all coins. In fact, 9 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:47.039 they have two hundred and sixty plus cryptocurrencies on their platform. You can also 10 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:52.079 trade precious metals, stable coins, and thirty seven fiat currencies. In addition, 11 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:56.560 they are available in over one hundred and fifty countries, and this platform 12 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.439 is fully reserved. They do audits so you can trust that you're funds are 13 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.960 safe, no commingling, no lending out your funds. If you'd like to 14 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:07.640 learn more about Uphold, please visit the link in the description. Welcome to 15 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:12.120 the Thinking Crypto Podcast, your home for cryptocurrency news and interviews with me. 16 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:18.120 Today's Akin Fernandez, who's the founder and CEO of s Teco. A Kin, 17 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:22.519 great to have you on. Thanks for having Mekin. I'm excited to 18 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.239 speak with you because you and the folks at s teco are doing something really 19 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.159 cool where you're helping to bring bitcoin to billions of people around the world, 20 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.079 many who don't have easy access to crypto exchanges and things along those lines. 21 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:38.920 But before we get to that, tell us about yourself, your background, 22 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:44.560 your professional background as well. Well. I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York, 23 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:49.840 believe it or not, and my professional background is mostly in software and 24 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:57.920 before that publishing needs to run a very infamous culture publishing company back in the 25 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.719 nineteen nineties, and then I moved into software, which is my actually true 26 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:07.280 passion. And then when bitcoin came along, I you know, took my 27 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:14.159 long term interest in what money is and how it actually works and then decided 28 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.840 to dedicate my full time and the rest of my career to bitcoin. So 29 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:23.439 that's that the long, the long version of that story. And do you 30 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.960 remember what was your first encounter with bitcoin? Did a friend tell you about 31 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.960 it? Did you see that in a forum? And you know, sometimes 32 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:32.840 people need to hear about it and see it a few times before it clicks 33 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.879 for them and they have their Aha moment. What was that journey like for 34 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:43.240 you? Well, I read about bitcoin from a forum, actually, somebody 35 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.719 mentioned this new thing called bitcoin, and I already have an interest in synthetic 36 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:51.560 money, and so when I read about this, this this so called bitcoin, 37 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.199 I was skeptical what most people are, but I had different reasons for 38 00:02:54.240 --> 00:03:00.439 being skeptical because the problem that bitcoin was claiming to solve was a very hard 39 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:05.639 one in computer science, and so obviously I had to find out what this 40 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:13.560 bitcoin is all about. Having had a background in using BitTorrent and other types 41 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:17.439 of well, other attempts to solve this problem, I knew that if this 42 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.879 problem had actually been solved, a double spending problem and also the problem having 43 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.800 a single centralized server, that this could be something super important. So I 44 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:32.800 immediately downloaded the bitcoin client, which is a very familiar thing for anybody who 45 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:38.599 uses BitTorrent and things like that, and I started to use bitcoin. What 46 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:43.960 started to mine bitcoin actually myself on a single machine, and it appeared to 47 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:49.759 work exactly as described, and so I decided then, when I was already 48 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:54.319 a software developer working on an SMS project to stop working on an SMS project 49 00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:00.759 and start working on bitcoin. And the first implementation I did with bitcoin was 50 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:05.680 to accept bitcoin payments for SMS credits. Now, back then this is abound 51 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:11.199 twenty twelve, nobody was using bitcoin like that for anything, but it was 52 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.560 a proof of concept. It proved to me that I could actually use the 53 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:19.519 bitcoin server to write an application. And then it occurred to me that there's 54 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.680 no easy way to get bitcoin. Back then, there was an exchange called 55 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:29.360 inter Sango, and you had to send a bank transferred to Amir Talki, 56 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.279 who ran it, and then three days later, after you've given it your 57 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:36.680 bitcoin address, you would receive bitcoin in your wallet. Now, three days 58 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:42.000 for something like this is just absurd, And because of my background, I 59 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:47.639 knew that there actually is a more easy way to do this transaction because bitcoin, 60 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:53.399 when you think about it as software and not as a kind of money, 61 00:04:54.319 --> 00:05:00.240 it's exactly the same as top ups for SMS calls and GSM. So 62 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.959 by marrying these two these two ideas together, I came up with the idea 63 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.600 of as teco, where you can buy bitcoin in the same way that you 64 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:13.680 buy airtime, based all over the world. Most people in the world don't 65 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:19.399 have pay after pay in arrears, so the telefolk accounts they pay for this 66 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:25.240 to be a telephone service in advance through vouchers. This is true even in 67 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:29.120 twenty twenty four all over the world. So it's just an easy step for 68 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:35.120 me having this understanding and background to go from one thing to another and forming 69 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.240 the idea of as Teco. Then it was just a problem of writing the 70 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:44.360 software. So I have so many questions around that and to your point, 71 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:48.360 and I want to make sure the audience listening and viewing this that they understand. 72 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.199 You know, if they're in the United States, this is not necessarily 73 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:55.240 an issue for them, but there are billions of people in other countries. 74 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.759 It's not as easy to go log into a coinbase or cracking or whatever it 75 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.360 is and be able to buy an access bitcoin and even transact with it. 76 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:11.519 So your service and solution is critical to help them get exposure to the assets. 77 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:15.959 So let's say I'm in I don't know, some country in South America 78 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:21.319 right and I want to access bitcoin. Walk us through if you can, 79 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:25.759 to step by step process, and maybe I just have a flip phone right 80 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.680 to getting access to bitcoin. It's exactly the same as topping up your phone, 81 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.120 your flip phone. If you want to make calls to anybody on Earth. 82 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:41.079 You go to a point of sale. It could be a pharmacy or 83 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.120 a news agent or whatever it is, or even a wooden shack at the 84 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.240 side of the road that they have in places in the continent of Africa, 85 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:51.800 and then you pay that person ten dollars, five dollars or whatever it is 86 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:56.639 in the local currency, and then they give you a paper slip, and 87 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:02.120 that paper slip looks exactly like this. It looks exactly like this piece of 88 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:06.399 paper here with a QR code on it, and then you scan that QR 89 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:13.399 code with your phone or put in the sixteen digit code manually, and then 90 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:17.959 three seconds later you get that bitcoin topped up to your account in your bitcoin 91 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.079 walt and that can be Samurai wallet or wallet Satoshi or any bitcoin wallet where 92 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.399 you can be assigned and address that you can then put into a form and 93 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.000 that's it. It's as simple as that. There are no other steps, 94 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:35.720 and there don't need to be any other steps. The other steps that people 95 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:42.120 have to go through to get bitcoin in the first world are a product of 96 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:47.040 the misunderstanding and the miscategorization of bitcoin as money. As soon as you don't 97 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.199 think of it as money, but think of it as a kind of top 98 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:57.680 up or phone credit, then you can build a service based only on that 99 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.879 and remove all the complex and that's how you're going to reach billions of people. 100 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.480 Billions of people are not going to log into cracking, a service that 101 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.360 I love, by the way, Packing, or any of these other exchanges, 102 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.439 even if they could, even if they could pass the identity requirements, 103 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:22.920 which billions of people actually can't. Those are only tools, essentially for businesses 104 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.759 and for traders. They're not for the common man who just wants to get 105 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:33.679 something very very simple done, like sending money abroad or receiving money or that 106 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.679 kind of thing. It's all very simple for most people, and so you 107 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:41.720 wouldn't expect people to build a phone charger for themselves if they want to charge 108 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:48.519 their telephones, and that asking the ordinary consumer to go to an exchange to 109 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.519 buy bitcoin is a similar kind of thing. What we do is we bring 110 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.679 bitcoin into the consumer fold, where the consumer bitcoin company, and that means 111 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.639 we have to address people and serve them where they are and not pull them 112 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.480 into where we think they should be. We have to think of them as 113 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:13.720 the guiding like the north Star, and make sure that we serve them in 114 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.519 a way that's very very simple to understand, and we've actually proven it now 115 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:24.120 because our service is hugely, wildly popular. Now, you mentioned the different 116 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:30.559 wallets that could be any major bigcoin wallet, and as techo, I'm assuming 117 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:35.279 you're the one bridging the gap in the relationship with the pharmacy or the business 118 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.039 right to set them up to be able to do this. Is that correct, 119 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.639 that's right. We have a series of distributors that allow us to sell 120 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:50.159 our vouchers worldwide and output them to a common point of sale system, so 121 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:56.279 we don't have to actually write any software or do any bespoke integrations in order 122 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:58.679 for our vouchers to come out of those points of sale. And I think 123 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:07.240 this is another insight that's has been missing generally, is that bitcoin is software. 124 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.080 It's not a form of money. It's just software like any other software, 125 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.799 and so you can write tools entirely in software to address these business needs 126 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.279 and also the needs of the merchants. So we have a set of distributors 127 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.240 and we're available basically all over the world now in one hundred and ninety countries 128 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:31.559 through a different set of the distributors. And so when somebody in Venezuela or 129 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:37.159 something wants to sell one of our vouchers, they don't have to actually interact 130 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:43.399 with us. They use their existing relationships with distributors to sell other top up 131 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.919 products. To just add as Teco as one of the top up products that 132 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.840 are available only in our case, the top up product being delivered is bitcoin, 133 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.879 and bitcoin has a global reach, it has global utility, and so 134 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:03.440 it's not like a telephone top up that only worked inside one network. Bitcoin 135 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.879 works in the entire world. Is that the entire world were the network? 136 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:13.679 Yeah? Absolutely, And I love that structure and concept of how it's like 137 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.879 you said, software and you're integrating it into point of sale software and the 138 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.639 infrastructure that exists there. So it makes it easy, like there's not too 139 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.679 much heavy lifting there. I am curious about and you probably have this POV 140 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:35.720 dealing with different consumers globally. You know those who are let's say in a 141 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.600 country in Africa or South America, when they buy that big one, what 142 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:41.440 are they doing? Are they holding it? Are they viewing it as a 143 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.759 reserve asset, you know, something that keep the store of value or are 144 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:52.600 they sending it to people transacting? But what is the use case you're seeing 145 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.120 the most of Well, this is a very interesting question to make get it 146 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.000 quite a lot, and I think the best way to think about it is 147 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:05.840 to think about what is the use case for money? There is no single 148 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.000 answer for that. And bitcoin, because it's a money simulation as well as 149 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:16.159 being a communications network, you can pay for anything or use it for any 150 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.679 context and scenario where you're using money, And because money is half of all 151 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:30.000 transactions, it is something that's universal. And so as bitcoin grows. Right 152 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:33.480 now, there are a lot of speculators in bitcoin, and it's being used 153 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:39.480 for a small number in comparing in comparison to the number of uses that veil 154 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.279 is used for a small number of uses. But at its root, bitcoin 155 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.440 has the same utility as money. Now, for the people who are buying 156 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.080 as techo of vouchers, they're buying it for every conceivable purpose. What they're 157 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.480 doing when they buy these vouchers is if you have a lot of money, 158 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:05.879 you're using it for the storage and speculation utility. But as you go down 159 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:11.759 in the size of the voucher. The lower you get, the more it's 160 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.080 being used for spending. And as techo, we talk about the three use 161 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:22.080 cases of bitcoin, which is saving, spending, and sending, and so 162 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:30.320 those are the blanket that we used to describe how as technico vouchers are used. 163 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.320 And I think it's very useful to boil it down to those things because 164 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.639 actually that's what money is for, is for saving, spending or sending. 165 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:43.440 And as people certainly in the so called Third world, start to understand how 166 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.120 powerful bitcoin is, the sending aspect for them is probably going to be the 167 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.519 number one use case because most people in the world don't have a lot of 168 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.159 savings. Savings is a fun game for the rich, and so money still 169 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.759 has the same ut. But if you have a small amount of money, 170 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.919 you have to live day to day, you have to get things done, 171 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.200 and so saving is something that you can do almost as a luxury. But 172 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:15.559 bigcoin is obviously good for that, and anybody who started saving bitcoin five years 173 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:20.000 ago, judging by day prices, is a very happy person. Yeah. 174 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.879 Absolutely, Now can I, for example, if I have a friend, 175 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.360 and once again, in certain parts of the world and it's a developing country, 176 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.159 they're not able to get access to a crack in exchange and so forth. 177 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.240 Can I gift a voucher? Can I say, hey, I'm going 178 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:39.080 to send you one hundred dollars or something, and so that they can then 179 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.240 put it into the wall. Well, you know, let's say they haven't 180 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.600 fully sent set it up on their wallet and so forth. But I'm going 181 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.399 to get you the voucher and then you can then take care of the resk. 182 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.279 Can I do that? Absolutely one percent. Our vouchers, when they're 183 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:58.120 a piece of paper or if they're in the form of an image on the 184 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:03.240 screen, work exactly the same way. And people do give up away as 185 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:09.679 techo vouchers as gifts, and so that's absolutely perfectly possible and encouraged. Now, 186 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.480 you guys had got a found of excuse me, a funding round and 187 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:16.480 I believe Jack Dorsey participated. Can you tell us about that funding round and 188 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.000 how are you working with Jack and so forth. Well, Ja's been actually 189 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.679 very useful for us. He's with the lead in our seed round where we 190 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.759 raised six million dollars and this has allowed us to do a lot of the 191 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.080 things that we've been dreaming of for many years. First of all, refining 192 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.639 the user experience of our website. So now it's a world class, very 193 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:46.000 unique, unique to bitcoin user experience. And it's very important to have a 194 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:54.440 user experience that differentiates bitcoin from fintech. Fintech has a graphic design language that's 195 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.919 instantly recognizable as fintech, and I think that's a mistake if you're a bitcoin 196 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.240 company, because we don't want to be categorized, certainly in as Techo's case, 197 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.799 as another fintech. We are a different kind of company. We're a 198 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:14.600 bitcoin company, it's much less a fintech and more like a telecoms company. 199 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:22.000 So we need to have an interface in the public facing design that's not frightening, 200 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:27.720 that's not fintechy, that doesn't drive ordinary people away with all kinds of 201 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:33.720 symbols and languages in language that they don't understand. And so that investment that 202 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.600 that that round that we had has been very very useful for us, and 203 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:44.759 also it's allowed us to take on some world class employees for one of a 204 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:52.159 better description, including an eleven year Apple product product manager. It's not a 205 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.799 product ruct. He's the It escapes me because I'm in an interview, but 206 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:03.639 this guy is from Apple and he's absolutely wonderful and he has changed the way 207 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:10.759 we do things internally so that all of our systems are more prepared for the 208 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:15.960 deluge of users that have been coming, and so that's where that money is 209 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:22.039 being used. And we're very, very grateful to Jack for having the vision 210 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.799 of understanding that we're trying to do something that nobody else is really trying to 211 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.960 do, and that Bitcoin, in order for it to take over the entire 212 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.559 world, has to reach those people about two billion people who are unbanked and 213 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.279 everybody else, and the only way we can do that is by coming to 214 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:45.079 them with something that's of an apple quality in terms of the usability, the 215 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.480 language, and the framing of what bitcoin is. Because if it continues to 216 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:55.039 be framed as only an asset, only a speculative thing that only the rich 217 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.559 can be involved in, that it is never going to get anywhere and it's 218 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:07.519 not going to fulfill its promise. Are you planning to expand to other crypto 219 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:12.119 assets such as stable coins which like they tether, for example, which a 220 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:15.839 complimentary to Bitcoin that they're usually used as on and off rams for bitcoin, 221 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.640 or you know you're specifically sticking with Bitcoin for now, Hi, everyone part 222 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.440 in the interruption. I'm Tony Edward, the founder and host of the Thinking 223 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.960 Crypto podcast. I have a you favor to ask you. If you haven't 224 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.319 subscribed as yet on YouTube or the podcast platforms, hit that subscribe button, 225 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.440 hit the thumbs up button, hit the notification bell on the YouTube platform and 226 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.359 on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts, please leave a five 227 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.039 style rating and review. It supports the podcast. It allows me to bring 228 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.519 great quality content to you. Thank you for your support, and I'll let 229 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.799 you get back to the content. Well, this is an inside a techo. 230 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:53.799 This is a very well inside bitcoin. This is a very controversial subject, 231 00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:00.359 and why it's a controversial subject is down. It's time to what a 232 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:07.759 stable coin is now. Being a libertarian, I'm not averse to people experimenting 233 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.960 with software, experimenting with models, and doing whatever they think they can do 234 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.119 to serve the public and make a profit, and not against that at all. 235 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:25.680 But Bitcoin is conceved was conceived as a replacement for the feop system, 236 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:32.720 which teats people by design, and so what some people are doing is believing 237 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:40.599 that a stable coin which has backing by the US dollar is somehow complementary to 238 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.039 the Bitcoin. Stealing is not complementary to bitcoin. If you have a token 239 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:51.960 that has at its backing the US dollar, even if those dollars in that 240 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.160 tool are counted one for one under a strict audit, the value of the 241 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:02.960 dollar is still being debased by the Federal Reserve. And so what you're doing 242 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.960 is you're bringing these Federal Reserve dollars to millions of people in a pretty package, 243 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.799 a nifty looking package, in an app, when it's actually still stealing 244 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:18.000 from them. The nature of the dollar doesn't change because you've put it into 245 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.519 a different box. The nature the dollar is the problem. The fee up 246 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.559 problem is the problem, and that's what bitcoin has been given to us to 247 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:33.079 solve. So mixing these two things together is problematic. And also there's an 248 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.799 attitude of some people that the third world people are not smart enough to understand 249 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:44.720 bitcoin. They need dollars because it's something they understand it x y z Well 250 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.839 I tend not to look down on people like that. People in the so 251 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:53.759 called third world are more than capable of understanding bitcoin, understanding the proposition, 252 00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:00.440 and just like everybody else, including people in the West, they're is a 253 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.759 small learning curve that has to be endured so that people can understand the proposition 254 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:08.720 of bitcoin. And it's the same for people in the third world as it 255 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:14.319 is for people in the first world. And I think twenty years from now, 256 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.920 when we're talking about bitcoin, maybe not me, but other people talking 257 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.880 about bitcoin, they're going to understand this is actually what happened. It took 258 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.319 time for people to understand the field problem. Nobody understood it when bitcoin was 259 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:34.000 released. But now when you can put away a tenth of a bitcoin in 260 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:40.200 your wallet and it's worth exactly the same, if not more, ten years 261 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:45.240 from now, saving all of a sudden becomes something that makes sense because now, 262 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:49.599 if you have any understanding of money, that the devaluation of the dollars 263 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:55.200 through the federals that are printing and everything else makes your savings lose value over 264 00:21:55.279 --> 00:22:00.759 time by design. And so this theft, which is exactly what it is, 265 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:04.240 is intolerable to anybody who understands what's going on, especially you have a 266 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:08.880 huge amount of money, and so you need a tool to save your money 267 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:15.720 in where the supply cannot be debased on demand. And that's what bigcoin gives 268 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.039 to everybody for sure as well as rich. So you know, you mentioned 269 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.359 the educational aspect, and that's, like you said, true for everybody, 270 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.079 whether you're in the first world country or a third world country, everybody has 271 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:32.480 to go through that learning experience. What initiatives or campaigns do you have going 272 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:37.039 on to help educate folks and to learn about this technology. And you know, 273 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.240 and many of them may not understand blockchain initially like all of us, 274 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.039 but you know, to understand how the blockchain works and the underlying technology and 275 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.599 a proof of work concept and all these great principles. A big point, 276 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:53.960 how do you how does the educational aspect come into play? Well, this 277 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.759 is once again it's a very interesting topic and there certainly is some value you 278 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.720 knowunderstanding the field problem, which Savadine has done very very well with his book 279 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:10.240 The Upstandards. It's change the minds of many, many people. But at 280 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:14.359 the same time, if we think about the number of people that have to 281 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:18.200 be brought on board onto bitcoin, which measures in the billions, it is 282 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:25.000 not sensible. It's not rational to expect all of those people to understand how 283 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:30.680 the tools that they use work. Nobody expects anybody who the billions of people 284 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:36.519 who use SSL in a browser to understand how SSL works, or how SMS 285 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:40.799 works, or how iOS or Android works. They just need to be given 286 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:45.200 to them something that actually does work, that's understandable in a way that if 287 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:51.839 I press this button here, my cousin Yinka in Jos will receive the equivalent 288 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.400 of one hundred dollars and then he can spend that wherever he wants. That's 289 00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:00.079 all they need to understand. So this idea of bitcoin education, whilst it's 290 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:04.960 very very useful and sometimes even entertaining, it's not going to help us reach 291 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:11.680 a billion people. We've got to go to people with a proposition that doesn't 292 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.920 require training. And of course Apple do this absolutely brilliantly. It's why their 293 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.839 MacBook pros don't get shipped with an instruction book, because you open it and 294 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.119 it teaches you by its operation how to use it. And so what we 295 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:33.160 need is actually consumer grade wallets like wallets Toshi, like Breeze, like Samurai 296 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:38.599 Wallet, that when you open them up, you get the experience of bitcoin 297 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.799 out of the box. And so I'll give you a good example of how 298 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.319 to be anti consumer. There's some wallets that used to do this where they 299 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.039 built anymore I'm not going to take responsibility that a lord i'd like to. 300 00:24:55.319 --> 00:25:00.799 They used to demand that a user would write down their mnemonic and then prove 301 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.880 that they'd written it down before they would allow you to receive your first transaction 302 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:11.400 in bitcoin. Now, this might appear on the surface to be an attempt 303 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:18.000 to take care of the user so that they don't if their wallet goes down 304 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.799 with their phone gets tole they can recover their bitcoin. But actually what it 305 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.200 does it presents a barrier to the ordinary person, and it also makes them 306 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:32.599 very frightened about this strange thing called bitcoin, which actually is not so dangerous 307 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.240 and doesn't require this kind of stuff. So the sensible people like Walla Satoshi 308 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:44.440 have removed that requirement entirely and it just works straight out of the box. 309 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.960 As soon as you download it and run it for the first time, you're 310 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.799 ready to receive bitcoin. And so education is important, but it has to 311 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:59.079 be done in the appropriate way. It doesn't make sense to ask ordinary people 312 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.240 dyo or do your research, read a whole bunch of books about it, 313 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.759 understand economics, understand the blockchain and all this business, because first of all, 314 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.640 nobody cares, and secondly, to really understand these things. You have 315 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.480 to have a high degree of training one way or another in software, and 316 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:25.400 so if bigcoins to become a consumer service all over the world, you've got 317 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.559 to use the same methodology that Apple, Samsung and all these other companies use 318 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:36.759 to get their complicated tools and services into the hands of people. And that's 319 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.759 by removing the complexity and giving people something that just works out of the box. 320 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:45.799 For sure. What else is on your roadmap for twenty twenty four, 321 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.160 Well, on twenty twenty four, we have some very very secret integrations coming 322 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:56.920 up. Well they're very secret, and they're very interesting, and they're going 323 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:03.480 to put us into put us on the global stage. That's all I can 324 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.240 say about it. And this is going to transform how not only people get 325 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:14.160 a hold of bitcoin, but it's going to transform how people think about bitcoin. 326 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.759 I think that those two problems are closely related and they can be solved 327 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:25.559 both at the same time. We have to get the simple proposition and essentially 328 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.960 the truth about bitcoin in front of as many people as possible. So in 329 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.759 our Brokemac for this year, that's going to be the case. Everybody's going 330 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:41.559 to be very surprised about how bitcoin actually can work if you take away the 331 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.480 complexity and think about it correctly. Many people when they use as Teco for 332 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:49.240 the first time, whether they've used other services or not, they say, 333 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:55.640 why isn't everything this easy? Well, it's not that easy because the people 334 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.400 who designed those services misconstrued bitcoin. We didn't make that mistake, and so 335 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:07.480 it's going to be a flood, a global flood of people who understand bitcoin 336 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.039 and who now think about it the way that we think about it, which 337 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.960 we obviously think is the correct way. And so that's the most important thing 338 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:23.000 in our roadmap exponential growth. And I wouldn't say proselytizing, but spreading the 339 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:30.160 message of how simple bitcoin can be, what it can actually be used for 340 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.319 for the vast majority of people on Earth, and things like that, And 341 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:38.559 I think it's very exciting. That's awesome. Now you had brought up just 342 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:41.799 a couple of questions ago. You know, the debatement of fiat currency, 343 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.200 and this is a problem we see globally, right, this is the system 344 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.960 we live on, the fiatic debt based system, and they continue to print 345 00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:56.880 us into oblivion. Do you think though, bitcoin will be adopted by different 346 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:03.720 countries and central banks where it could help solve this currency problem because the debt 347 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.640 can keep going on forever. At some point they're going to have to do 348 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:11.759 some sort of reset or change this system. But is bitcoin part of the 349 00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:18.039 solution. Well, they can choose to accept Bitcoin's offer or not. And 350 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.480 if they choose not to accept bitcoins offer, that means they're going to have 351 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:30.240 to do, as you say, a reset and relaunch another fiat with a 352 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:36.279 smaller amount of well a small amount of coins in circulation, of notes in 353 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.799 circulation, and then the cycle will start again, and it'll be another fifty 354 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:45.119 Actually, the average life of the field currencies over the thorieth century was sixteen 355 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:49.240 years. Another of you knew that, But so it'll be another set of 356 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:55.000 pushing the problem back into the future. Elf, what Kaine said, it 357 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.559 doesn't matter that we do this because in the end we're all dead. Well, 358 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:03.160 anybody who have children knows that your children are going to inherit this system, 359 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.759 whether it's the Euro or the dollar, and so thinking about the future 360 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.720 means that you don't want to have the currency to go kaboom with all your 361 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:15.839 savings that just evaporated. So these countries are going to have to choose between 362 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:21.519 the free offer of bitcoin, which brings with it a whole bunch of disciplines 363 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.240 or fear. And there are a couple of countries now that the most famous 364 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:32.799 were being the El Salvador, which has made bitcoin legal tender, which is 365 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.799 a sage move. And now with the bitcoin price going through the ceiling as 366 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:42.559 we predict it's going to happen, they're going to benefit tremendously from using bitcoin 367 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:48.079 as legal tender, and then there'll be many other side effects of that. 368 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:55.039 If they allow businesses to come into Salvador and to incorporate and do business without 369 00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:00.480 interference, then that country could be the global center of all bitcoin businesses. 370 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.039 And since they'll be taxed in El Salvador instead of New York, then El 371 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:10.240 Salvador will read the benefits of all of that. Just imagine all the world's 372 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.000 money as bitcoin flowing through businesses in El Salvador. They'll be able to pave 373 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:22.119 the roads with gold there if they do this. Obviously, there's just like 374 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:27.559 moving away from Fiat, there's a price for governments in doing this kind of 375 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:32.279 thing. They're going to have to relinquish the idea that they have to control 376 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:37.200 everything. And if they're able to do that, the benefits will come. 377 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.720 It's like the Lafe for curve. Actually, if you tax less, it's 378 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:48.519 an optimum amount of regulation, just as an optimum amount of taxation, beyond 379 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.599 which if you tax more, the returns are increasingly diminished. So they have 380 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.960 to get the regulation right. They can't regulate everything. And if they get 381 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:06.119 that right, everybody will flood to El Salvador wherever it is and incorporate there, 382 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.000 and the benefits compare and contrast with New York with its bit license, 383 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:17.279 with the most un American anti just absolutely just unconstitutionalist, appalling, and of 384 00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:22.359 course nobody wants to incorporate in New York. They're all fleeing from New York. 385 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.599 And what benefits are going to have to the United States and to New 386 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.799 York. It's going to be very negative. And so that's the complete situation. 387 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:36.359 These countries will move to bitcoin, but they have to understand that it 388 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.839 means giving up something. It means giving up as the control, it means 389 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:44.599 giving up the control over the supply of money, which they've been using to 390 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:49.359 do all kinds of vanity projects, distribute money money amongst themselves and their friends, 391 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.000 and that has to go away. They're going to have to find some 392 00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.319 other way to have a grift, but that's another story. But if they 393 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.279 do that, everybody's going to benefit, and in fact, they might just 394 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.880 have to do it by default, because if everybody on Earth with the celluar 395 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:08.759 telephone can receive bitcoin, that means it will become the de facto money of 396 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.160 the entire world, and people will stop using the FiOS because it's obviously bad 397 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.240 for them since the value is going down. And then we'll have a new 398 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:23.319 kind of money all over the world, which nobody actually put in place through 399 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:29.680 law, but economics and the market put it in place. And once that 400 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:32.599 happens, just like the end to end conscription of WhatsApp and things like that, 401 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.559 once that happens, it's irretical. It cannot be removed, and you'll 402 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:44.400 find, just like with WhatsApp, these governments and their employees like WhatsApp because 403 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.480 they know it's private, and they're just the same as everybody else. They 404 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:52.440 want privacy, they want sound money. It's a question with them of whether 405 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:58.680 they can make that money quickly or over time, and so that giving them 406 00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.960 that choice I think is probably not a good idea, which is what bitcoins 407 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:07.680 should spread, just like what's happened all the other things, and BitTorrent without 408 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:12.159 any party permission, without asking anybody should be or should we not do that's 409 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.639 they should It should just happen, and then bitcoins everywhere, and then this 410 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.480 is the force of nature, right. And what we are seeing though, 411 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:24.039 is that these governments are using the underlying technology of bigcoins, underlying technology of 412 00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:30.880 blockchain and trying to build what's called central bank digital currency CBDCs and tokenizing fiach 413 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.559 currencies. Now I'm concerned about that. I understand what they're trying to do, 414 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:39.119 but a lot of people are worried about privacy and control, you know, 415 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:44.159 how they will control people's money and it'll probably, I don't know if 416 00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.519 it's going to make the fiat currency problem even worse. Right, what are 417 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:51.519 your thoughts on that? Absolutely? Well, And first of all, there's 418 00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:57.679 the problem here is that they using the term blockchain technology. These cdbcs are 419 00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:01.800 not really anything to do with bitcoin at all. Technically, they're just essentially 420 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:08.599 databases. And these databases be under total control of the Federal Reserve or whoever 421 00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:13.320 it is. And by the way, Ted Cruz and some others have sponsored 422 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.000 a bill banning these things for the United States, which is a very good 423 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.840 thing. So what the what they're doing is they're trying to bring in a 424 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.519 system where they have absolute control over everyone's money. Every single wart that you 425 00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:31.679 use under these CDPC systems will be known by the state. They'll be able 426 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:36.960 to cut off your money and your ability to use it whenever they like. 427 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.880 And even worse, they'll be able to stop you from buying, say a 428 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:44.719 cant of bud Light when you want to, because you'll have only a certain 429 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:50.079 amount of money a month that's allowable to be spent on things that you like, 430 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.920 like bud so And along with this will have to come some kind of 431 00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:59.679 national idea register so that when you go and spend this money, they know 432 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:04.039 who it is who's spending the money. On two sides. So this is 433 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.519 a super super anti American idea. It's a very bad idea. It's turning 434 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:15.360 FIAT into not just a way to steal money from the American people, but 435 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:20.920 to steal their freedom as well as their money. And the way to beat 436 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.559 these cdbcs first of all, for people like Ted Cruz and the Holy and 437 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:29.199 all these people to bring in legislation forbidding the Federal Reserve from launching such a 438 00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:37.840 monstrosity, and also the people who are sovereigns in America switching to a form 439 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.599 of money, a form of synthetic money that cannot be controlled by any state, 440 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:45.440 not just the American state, and that's bitcoin. And so anybody who's 441 00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:53.320 really against this CDBC abomination from coming to pass is spreading Bitcoin like their lives 442 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.000 dependent on it, and actually it does. So that's actually the answer, 443 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:05.280 not worrying about cdbc's, but spreading bitcoin through tools and services that anybody can 444 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.199 use instantaneously once. Let's just think about it this way. If every single 445 00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:15.280 person in the United States had a copy of wallet Asatoshi, that's three hundred 446 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:20.280 and forty million people. If they all had watch, they were all using 447 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.880 bitcoin, it'll be much harder to roll out a CDBC with all the other 448 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.440 opposing courses. Also, it'd be much harder because everybody's on bitcoin, just 449 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:35.239 like everybody's on WhatsApp. You can't ban WhatsApp, you can't ban signal now 450 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.159 because so many people are using it. That's the way to kill the cdbc's. 451 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:45.239 And of course that Carstairs character says explicitly that they want to have the 452 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:51.480 fine grain control over every dollar that's spent. No American should be for that 453 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:54.000 and think that he should be called an American. I'm sorry, that's just 454 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:59.840 the way it is. Yeah, for sure. Now we've got bitcoin getting 455 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:05.480 a adopted by financial institutions with the launch of the Bitcoin's POTTYTF. Love to 456 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.639 get your thoughts on that and how what impact do you think that's going to 457 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:14.719 have on the adoption of bitcoin. I think, well, it's interesting if 458 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:19.559 we think of bitcoin in the same way that we think about email and the 459 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:24.199 and the web. The web was adopted first by you know, your geeks 460 00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.719 and software developers and people like that, and then it grew that way and 461 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.079 there's only much later that the big corporates got onto the Internet that had their 462 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:37.480 own websites and their own web services and even email. And so this ETF 463 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:43.519 is very good symbolically because what it does is it shows that these institutions that 464 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:50.480 previously were with a classic institution which would previously very skeptical about bitcoin, are 465 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.920 now warm have now warmed up to it totally. They're hot for it now. 466 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:59.400 That's something they've warmed up for it and they're they're making a fortune on 467 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:06.920 bitcoin, and they've proved also that it is legitimate. Nobody says now that 468 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.679 bitcoin isn't legitimate. It's only for these bad use cases. And I think 469 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:20.119 that's the most important effect that these ETFs are imposing on the West. These 470 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:25.639 ETFs are only for a small number of accredited investors. It's not for everybody, 471 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:31.559 and so this is more symbolic than it is practical. And in so 472 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:36.800 far as it's driving up the price at bitcoin, that's also good because what 473 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.920 it's going to do is tract more people into bitcoin at the lower levels who 474 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.840 are running their own wallets, buying us techo vouchers to fill them up, 475 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:49.239 and that kind of thing. So all in all, I think it's a 476 00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.480 good thing. I think it's a very positive thing, and it may lead 477 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:59.679 eventually to the United States government actually recognizing bitcoin in some legal form, just 478 00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.679 like El Salvador does. Was probably a light version of that, and that 479 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:08.199 will further erase people's doubts about it, make it easier for bitcoin startups to 480 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:14.639 raise money when it comes to any service that handles it, and means it 481 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.840 will mean that nobody's laughing at bitcoin anymore. For many years, people will 482 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.159 laugh at it and market and even though it's been sound all the way through 483 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.880 from the beginning, Bitcoin hasn't changed. It's the people who have changed. 484 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:32.280 I think this ETF is a key moment in people changing their minds about bitcoin. 485 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:37.440 It's now okay to like bitcoin, it's now okay to put your money 486 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:43.360 in bitcoin because the ETFs are here, and so the landscape has changed, 487 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:45.440 and I think it's a very good thing. Yeah, you know, you 488 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:49.960 brought up a great point that I didn't think about, and that is these 489 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.159 big institutions, which are well known. People are familiar with the brands and 490 00:40:53.239 --> 00:41:00.519 so forth, your fidelities, your black Rocks, they building these bitcoin products. 491 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:05.000 It's hard for the government to go fight against them because, look, 492 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.760 let's be honest, the political system. The black Rock and Fidelity make campaign 493 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:14.320 donations of politicians and influence the lawmakers. So to your point, if the 494 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:20.280 US federal government could could pivot and embrace it and change laws because the biggest 495 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.039 institutions in the world, especially in the United States, are adopting it, 496 00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:28.360 that's exactly right. And also on an individual level, that senators and congressmen 497 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.519 are all investing in bitcoin. More or less in secret, although it's not 498 00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:39.239 secret they are now. And I've always said this that the journalists and the 499 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:46.400 politicians must become peers in the network in some capacity when it's not in their 500 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:51.519 interest for the bitcoin price to cook down when they're invested in it, when 501 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:57.519 they're going to lose personally if anybody disparages bitcoin. They're going to make sure 502 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:02.760 that if somebody is found arging bitcoin in any journal, counter articles will be 503 00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:07.400 released saying this is not since bitcoin is absolutely sound, because they're going to 504 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:14.280 benefit from it personally. No government official is going to put restrictions on bitcoin 505 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:20.559 that will hamper its growth because if bitcoin grows into the market is accepted by 506 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.559 everybody, their value of their investment is going to go up. So they're 507 00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:32.079 incentivized to do their jobs properly and not get involved with the commerce of ordinary 508 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:37.119 American people. So that's another reason why these ETFs are a very good thing. 509 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.239 It gives exposure to bitcoin to people who would not normally get exposure. 510 00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.360 And you're not going to get Congress banness, senators downloading a wallet and then 511 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:50.239 you know, getting onto coin based and stuff. They're too busy to do 512 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:55.320 that kind of stuff. But their account managers can get exposure to bitcoin through 513 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:59.840 these ETFs, and then all of a sudden, they're incentivized. They're incent 514 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.199 advised in theory and in fact, and they're going to do everything they can 515 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.880 to make those investments go up. And in the case of bitcoin, that 516 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:14.480 means backing off. Let the market grow exponentially and naturally, just as the 517 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.719 Internet grew exponentially naturally, and then they'll benefit. That has to happen. 518 00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.280 Yeah, absolutely, I want to get your thoughts and we're running up in 519 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.880 time. But the Bigcoin Lightening Network, there are many different apps and folks 520 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:31.920 working on the Lightning Network to improve the transactibility, so to speak of bigcoin, 521 00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.880 to make things faster and so forth. What are your thoughts on on 522 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:40.000 the Lightning network and the development's happening there well. As Teco started as an 523 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:45.320 on chain only company, is selling a vouchers that were redealable on chain, 524 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:50.920 and we knew that, as everybody else knows who's will gain bitcoin, that 525 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:58.000 the fees have to go up if the Bitcoin network grows and adoption continues, 526 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.000 and we've seen that recently with the cooin fees for one transaction going up to 527 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:06.840 like twenty five dollars, and so it's not feasible for somebody who needs ten 528 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:10.119 dollars a bitcoin to pay a twenty five dollars transaction fee. And so the 529 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.000 idea of Lightning is a godsend. It's an absolutely wonderful thing. It not 530 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:22.679 only removes the impediment and the problem of the Bitcoin fees, but it's also 531 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:27.079 super fast. It's super fast. You can send very very very small amounts 532 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.280 of bitcoin, just as you could in the original, super early days of 533 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:36.960 bitcoin when the fees were fantastically low. The Lightning network is essentially given Bitcoin 534 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:42.920 back to itself. It's the promise of Bitcoin fulfilled through this new layer. 535 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.519 Layer one. That was a layer two, it's layer two, and it's 536 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:52.800 been an absolutely wonderful invention. I think it is absolutely fantastic, and Lightning 537 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:58.320 Labs is one of the most important companies ever to start in bitcoin, and 538 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:04.000 we're very grateful to them for doing this super innovative, super difficult, actually 539 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.239 dangerous work and they've pulled it off. They've pulled it off. I think 540 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:13.039 it's fair to say that the Lightning Labs saved Bitcoin. That certainly saved the 541 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.679 use case of small amounts of bitcoin going to and fro all over the world, 542 00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.199 and in our concept, in our conception and our framing of bitcoin, 543 00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:25.159 that's an absolute prerequisite to world domination. And so you know, thanks a 544 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:31.800 lot, Elizabeth Dark And yeah, for sure. Now I've got some wrap 545 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:36.840 up questions here for you. First, because the metaverse is being created, 546 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:39.800 if you could create your own metaverse, will the theme be the theme for 547 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:47.480 our own metaverse? Well, yeah, if we If I could start my 548 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.320 own metaverse, the theme and all the rules would come from one book, 549 00:45:52.880 --> 00:46:02.000 which is Murray Rothbard's for a New liber Team, and all the rules in 550 00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:08.880 that metaphorse will be based on the libertarian principles of non aggression. And I 551 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:14.719 think that would be a very very interesting place to to exist, although in 552 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:19.760 a digital place you can't really aggress against people in real life, but just 553 00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:23.519 as an idea, as a way of training people to understand libertarianism, I 554 00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:28.159 think that would be very very cool. Mm hmmm. And you got some 555 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.960 rapid fire questions here for you. Favorite food, my favorite food, any 556 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:40.679 kind of hate cuisine, favorite musician or band. I'm partial to musicians. 557 00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:46.480 I'm partial to the group Wire. I think that a wonderful group and I 558 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:52.880 also like any any recording by Gustav b and Heart of box Work, which 559 00:46:52.920 --> 00:47:00.159 are always superb. Favorite movie, uh had a guess out of the Box 560 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:05.559 two thousand and one Space Obnestly it's quite a good one for sure, back 561 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:10.320 too, Yeah, one of my favorite favorite book. Favorite book, what 562 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:15.519 I would be the King James Bible. And when you're not working at Asteco, 563 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:21.239 what are you doing for fun? I fly Wado Control models, gliders 564 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:28.400 actually the Discus Gliders discussed launch gliders and what else. Ride a bicycle around, 565 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.960 try and keep thick because most of the time I've sat down in the 566 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:37.239 office the writing software barking over this this camera, and so I try and 567 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:40.679 get out and do some cycling so I stay fit. Awesome. Yeah, 568 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:45.519 that's great man. Again, pleasure chatting with you, and I'm excited to 569 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.920 see future updates around as DECO and I absolutely believe in the mission that you're 570 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.760 doing and support you as much as you can. And folks, I'll have 571 00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:57.039 links to the website and so forth, so you can go check out at 572 00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:00.400 steco's website. Again, Like I said, pleasure, Thank you so much 573 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.599 for joining me. Thanks for having me. Tony