WEBVTT

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Did you know that one third of
Americans believe in faith healing. However,

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faith healing is a dangerous practice that
prays on the vulnerable and sick, often

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leading them away from effective medical treatment. Believe in that prayer or divine touch

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concutor serious illnesses can result in tragic
outcomes, as individuals may delay or completely

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forego necessary medical interventions. This reliance
on faith over science can exacerbate conditions,

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cause unnecessary suffering, and even lead
to preventable deaths. Moreover, faith healers

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often exploit their followers financially, promising
miraculous cures that never materialize. It's crucial

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to recognize that while faith can provide
comfort, it should never replace evidence based

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medical care. Lives depend on the
responsible and informed pursuit of real, scientifically

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based health care solutions. But if
you think you can make a case for

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faith healing, then give us a
call because the show is starting now.

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Welcome everybody. Today is July seventh, twenty twenty four. I'm your host,

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Doctor Ben, and joining me today
is Secular Spirit. How are you

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doing today? Hello? Hello?
How's it going? So it's a good

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Sunday? I know we kind of
had the holiday weekend over here. But

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I'm happy to see everybody ready to
go for a show today. But if

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you'd like to share with audience kind
of who you are and what you do.

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I'm sure some people have seen you
on other shows, but we'd love

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to introduce you to our audience here. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

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my pleasure. Oh hold on,
I think I'm having a sound issue on

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my end. Hold on a second. Ah, there we go, all

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right, figured it out. So
yeah, my background is Muslim. I

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grew up in the Middle East,
in the Gulf region, in Dubai specifically,

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and I spent the first sixteen seventeen
years of my life being a very

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adamant, practicing believer. And when
I moved to Canada for university when I

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was seventeen, I basically went through
this whole big existential crisis, which I

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guess is common to a lot of
teenagers, of what am I doing with

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my life? What is my purpose? Why am I even going to school?

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Why did I make this big move
halfway across the world. And it

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kind of sent me on this process
of questioning everything about my life, like

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what do I want to do with
my life? And what are the foundations

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of my life. And I think
a combination of that crisis and just being

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in this new environment where I was
no longer in the Muslim world, no

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longer surrounded by Muslims, and meeting
new people, different kinds of people,

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people of different faiths. It sent
me questioning the things that I'd never questioned

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before in my life, and that
was Islam. And I just realized I

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didn't have good reasons to believe,
and I just been believing because that's what

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everyone around me was telling me was
the truth. And so I became an

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atheist pretty much then and there when
I was around seventeen eighteen and didn't really

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think about religion or faith that much
anymore. It just wasn't part of my

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life. And what eventually happened was
I realized that there were a lot of

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people who were really suffering in silence
because they had left a religion. I

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was fortunate enough where my family accepted
that I had left my immediate family anyway,

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a lot of my extended family doesn't
know till this day, and they

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definitely don't know that I'm doing this
kind of stuff online. And I just

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realized that I had this responsibility to
amplify the voices of former Muslims ex Muslims

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because the punishment for leaving Islam,
besides you know, burning in hell,

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which is what a lot of Muslims
believe, is punishment of death, which

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isn't enforced that much, thankfully,
especially not in the West, but it

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does happen to a lot of people. A lot of x Muslims are disowned

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by their family, they lose their
jobs, they're jailed. And I figured,

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I'm here in Canada and I don't
have to say risks that a lot

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of Muslims do. I don't have
to worry about my family finding out.

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And here's the other important thing.
I noticed that a lot of people who

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criticize Islam, like let's talk about
the new atheists, They're dismissed. The

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criticisms of Slam are dismissed because Muslims
will say, well, they didn't grow

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up with the religion, they're Westerners. And I felt like, as an

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Arab, as someone who lived the
religion, that I think my criticisms hold

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more weight, especially within the Muslim
community. And that's what led me to

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starting this channel, Secular Spirit.
And I call it Secular Spirit because I

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want to explore faith in general,
not just the Slam, but the reasons

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why we need faith, the things
that we get from faith, what the

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problems are with organized religion, and
what we can do to replace the things

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that religion give us without needing to
rely on blind faith. That's awesome,

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and I love that we have people
like you bringing this kind of perspective to

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many of us in the West who
haven't had a lot of exposure to Islam.

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And I know we have a very
christian centric focus because of our upbringing,

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but understanding that humans all have similar
fallacies, that we're prone to similar

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biases, even across culture, and
so I really appreciate what you're doing in

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this space and I'm excited to hear
what you bring to the conversations today.

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Thank you. So Talk Heathen is
a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,

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five oh one c three nonprofit organization
dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

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critical thinking, secular humanism, and
the separation of religion and government. This

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is a live call in show,
so get in. Get your calls in

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now so we get plenty of time
to talk with you about your religious experiences,

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your experiences with faith, healing,
any fun stories, you want to

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share from growing up in Islam or
in Christianity, we'd love to hear from

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you. We also love to address
any particular points of contention that we might

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have across different beliefs. So get
your calls in at five one two nine

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nine to one nine two four two. You can go to your browser type

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in tiny dot cc slash call THH
and we'd love to hear from you.

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But first we have a fun segment, talk Heathen to me, and we

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are going to go through the comments
that we received from last week's question.

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And our question last time was when
you go to Hell, who is the

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first person you want to talk to? And our answer in third place is

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from Cocob The first person I talked
to in Hell frigidare HVAC installation specialist.

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And in second place we have Miranda
Renzberger says the first person I want to

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talk to in Hell is mother Teresa, because if Christianity was real, she's

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definitely there and I have some things
to say to her about what it means

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to care for the sick, and
that is a burn that is a really

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good, good choice too. And
in first place we have from x million,

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they say in hell, I'd want
to talk to my alter ego.

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God, damn it, Tim,
I warned you about staying away from absent

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all really good responses. So if
you want your name and response to be

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featured on next week's show, we're
going to give you another question, which

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is what would Jesus tweet? So
answer your question below in the comment section,

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and we'll pick our top three responses
and read them live on next week's

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show. But, Secular Spirit,
what is your answer to this? What

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do you think Jesus would tweet?
Oh? I was thinking about a good

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one for this, but I first, we just wanted to say I think

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the fitting punishment for the HVAC repair
man is to be given a six hour

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time window when the customer is going
to be there for the repair, but

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they never show up for eternity.
That's serious. So yeah, I was

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thinking of a few things and I
can't up with this. So this is

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Jesus's tweet. The most important question
about Jesus, of course, is when

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is he coming back? We've been
waiting and waiting for thousands of years now,

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So Jesus wanted to address this by
saying by posting Messiah return updates running

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a bit late, but don't worry. I've got eternity on my side.

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Hashtag second coming soon ish, I
love it, I love it, you

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know, And he would do something
like that. He would definitely oh he's

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a tease. Yeah, yeah,
he would bait that over and over again.

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But if anybody else has answers to
this, what would Jesus tweet?

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Answer in the comments section and watch
next week to see if yours was chosen.

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And we can't do the show without
some very very important people behind the

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scenes. So let's go to the
crew cam. We have our audio crew,

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our video crew, people that do
the stamps for the recordings, and

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the call screeners. We have so
many people behind the scenes doing a lot

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of work that goes into this type
of show, and we're incredibly grateful to

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these lovely, lovely people. So
what do you think about taking a call?

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Let's do it all right, So
we're going to take Van. He

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him from California. Van, it
sounds like you want to talk about philosophy.

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Can you summarize your argument or requestion? Sure? I just in conversations

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with THEUS I've had I and just
let you know I'm naxa apeists and I

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come across this argument a lot from
theist about the ontological existence of God.

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We're using ontological arguments like anthelm,
writing, stay cards, writing, things

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like that, And so I wanted
to get your thoughts on how you would

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approach responding or rebutting to these arguments. I brought up, you know,

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shit begging and things like that.
But I just want to hear what you

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guys have to say. Yeah,
do you have any specific argument, like,

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I mean, other than we we
know, Uh, these people have

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a very specific like way of phrasing
the argument. But have have you had

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in your encounters, like, had
a specific argument that was brought to you.

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Yeah, one that I had recently
a person said that basically, the

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mind is perfect and set see if
I can see if I can remember it.

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It was a bit it was a
bit esoteric. The mind is perfect,

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therefore anything that the mind can conceive
of then is conceivably perfect. Therefore

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God exists because God is perfect.
I think, Yeah, that's a garbage

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argument. Yeah it is, it
is and so and so this is what

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I said. I just said,
Okay, so what if what if somebody

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just objects to your basic premise?
Uh, you know, and it's question,

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begging what if? What if?
What if? That's the basic objection,

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and he said, well, that's
silly, and so I just kind

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of rubbed my temples, you know
a little bit, but you know,

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and so at this point I just
like, okay, whatever, But again,

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I wanted to hear kind of some
of your thoughts on that. And

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I've heard other things. You know. A person came on I talked with,

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talked about an sol arguments and films
arguments, and when I kind of

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tried to approach it from a pistemological
sense, they were like, well,

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that's not the same thing because you
can't approach the concept of God from a

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pistemological sense because you're relying on purical
evidence. You can't rely on purical evidence.

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I'm like, okay, well then
if that's you can't rely on purical

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evidence, then what else can you
compare it to, you know, So

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you know, and I tried different
ways, like leprechauns unicorns, and it

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was always not the same thing,
not the same thing. So so again

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I wanted to hear your thoughts.
I mean, psychlo spirit, do you

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want to go for what? Sure? Well, thank you for the question.

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By the way, Van and I
see why you want to ask it,

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because for me personally, this is
the hardest argument I've dealt with when

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talking to theists, and the reason
why is because a lot of it is

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just kind of, you know,
mind mental gymnastics, like really abstract thinking.

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And what I found to be an
effective communication method to talk to feists

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about this is that when you think
about arguments like this, you don't actually

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know anything about what this god entity
is. And I don't know why you

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would even want to call it god, like this god has no characteristics,

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no traits. You could substitute in
the word the universe for example, and

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you couldn't really argue with them.
So if you're, say, talking to

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a Christian, the question I would
ask is, how can you connect Let's

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say, let's say this is true, this ontological experiment is true thought experiment.

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How can you connect this god to
the God of Christianity. If you're

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talking to a Muslim the God of
Islam, clearly you still need to do

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a lot of work work, and
the best someone like for example, William

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Lane Craig will do is well,
this is what we mean by God when

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we think about the greatest possible thing
and then he sneaks in all these specific

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traits and characterists about him in separate
arguments. M I see. So in

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other words, are you saying something
to the effect of, Okay, well,

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this this this perfect being that you're
that you're talking about onto Logically,

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yeah, what other characteristics does this
being have? Could it conceivably be be

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evil? And how do you know
that these characterists characteristics exist? Precisely?

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Like, there's no reason to think
that this this being cares about us.

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What could be completely indifferent, let
alone being evil? Could be could be

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neutral, not loving, or evil. We just don't know. Okay,

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yeah, I see, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I thought about that.

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You know how you run through a
conversation later in your head, you

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know, oh I should have said
that, I should have said that,

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And I kind of had that thought
as well. Oh no, definitely.

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I think when it comes to a
lot of feists, especially the ones that

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have looked into the apologetics, they're
coming in from a position where they already

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believe whatever faith they're professing, and
there might be like this element of insecurity

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about like, well, how do
I know it's true? And then they

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find things like this to support their
argument, And again, what I would

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say to a Christian, let's say
a Muslim can use the same exact argument

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for their God, and someone could
just invent a religion and use the same

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argument. Well, this is what
I mean by God, this perfect being

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that we can't conceive of something being
greater than it. So how do we

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know which God is real? How
do we connect this entity to a God

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that tells you that there's certain things
you can't eat on Sundays or Fridays or

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whatever, or well, according to
Muslims, you can't eat pork. There's

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like a big missing gap between the
ontological argument God and God that people actually

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believe in. Yeah, And what
I've found also is that the leap usually

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goes to well, you know,
the it goes to the something or nothing

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from something argument or the something from
nothing argument. He usually goes to that.

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And again that's yeah, like you
were saying, it's kind of a

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leap. Yeah, it's a leap, and so it normally just shifts the

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goalposts kind of shift, and then
it's just a you know, so I'm

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yeah, so I think that's what
I am. Like you said, it's

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00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.200
a pretty hard argument to really,
it's really like there, it's like a

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grief pig. You know, they're
just really it's a really slippery argument,

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and it's really really hard to kind
of nail him down on something. And

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that's you know, that's really what
I'm trying to do. Oh oh,

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Ben, we can't hear you.
Thanks pull the Johnny today. But with

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regard to your initial argument, well
not your argument, but the argument that

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you were responding to with the mind
being perfect, I flat out reject that

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premise, and I'm sure you do
as well, and it would be pretty

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easy to, yeah, kind of
help them understand that. Like, there

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are definitely times that the mind can
conceive something that is flawed. And we

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00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:08.080
see this on a day to day
basis. I mean every time that you

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00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:14.279
lose your keys when you think for
sure you place them in the same place

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00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.080
that you always do, but then
you find them on the counter instead of

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you know, in your bag,
and you were sure that that you had

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left him in the right place,
but your brain was not perfect. Your

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00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:30.480
mind was not perfect in remembering what
it did. And there are plenty of

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things that we theoretically come up with
and we'll do thought experiments about, but

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they don't actually translate to reality and
that's why bench research is so important and

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00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:48.799
why you can't just get theoretical degrees
only, and we don't just base medical

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00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.679
treatments on theory. We have to
have live demonstration of these things, and

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even how we need in vivo data
and not just in vitro data. You

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can conceptualize whatever you want, but
that doesn't mean that reality is going to

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reciprocate in like going along with the
theory. And so it's definitely, it's

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just it's just a flawed premise to
begin with. And I'm sure all of

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00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:18.079
us are on the same page with
that piece. Oh yeah, definitely.

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00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:22.960
I think when we think of words
like perfection, it's ultimately subjective, like

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tied to the whole concept of you
know, beauties in the eye of the

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00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:30.680
beholder. Yeah, and that's not
to say that yeah, go for it.

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00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:33.160
Oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry to
interrupt. I was just going to

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00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.119
say, what no, go for
it on is just how slippery it all

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00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.359
it all gets with as far as
you know, it's basically different things like

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00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.200
well, that's not the same thing
like if I brought up I brought up

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00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.839
things like you know, uh,
you know, well, we can't apply

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00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.000
real word situations to God, you
know, because God is immaterial and things

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00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:55.839
like that, and you're talking about
material it's just it just gets really,

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00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.480
you know, bogged down, and
it just gets super super slippery. Yeah,

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00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:04.720
and God influences material things, then
he should be able, we should

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00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:11.480
be able to materially demonstrate because if
they're going to make the claim that it's

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00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.880
purely immaterial, then what's the point
in even doing anything with him? Because

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if he's not going to influence the
material world, then fine, then we're

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00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:27.519
in like a we're in a completely
different realm of like an impersonal like deism

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00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:33.519
situation. But even the deist God
like was at least a creator, at

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00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.960
least in most of the deistic theology
that I'm familiar with, that at least

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00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:45.920
the deist God has intervened with our
material reality in some way. And so

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00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:51.200
even that's not really immune to this
thing. So I think we're all on

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00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.720
the same page here. Yeah,
yeah, that's right. Oh yeah,

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00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.480
without a doubt, without a doubt. But yeah, I sick in.

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I just wanted to hear kind of
how you would approach this, you know,

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00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.160
just to see where you land on
it. And I kind of feel

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00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.880
like I'm in the same at least
in the same ballpark as you, so

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00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.680
for sure. Like the one thing
I would say, Van, is I

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00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:15.519
find that the best approach is to
not tell or dictate things to FeAs you're

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00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:22.119
having these kinds of discussions, but
to just ask them questions almost And I'm

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00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.720
for me personally, it's a curiosity
to see how they justify it for themselves,

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00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.599
whatever their belief happens to be.
And I think when you ask questions

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00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.519
that really get to the things that
you think don't make sense, it gets

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00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.000
them thinking about it too, even
if they might deny it on the spot,

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00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.720
but it could get them thinking later
on or the next day. The

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00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.200
ways you said you sometimes think about
things you should have said. Yeah,

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00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.680
I totally agree. I think one
of the biggest things I read was avoid

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facts, you know, just keep
asking questions. Yeah, that makes sense.

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00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:52.640
I totally agree with that. All
Right, anything else we can help

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00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.240
you with today, Van, Guys, thank you so much. Yeah,

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00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.240
thanks for calling in. I hope
you have question. I have a good

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00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.480
rest to your Sonday, and I
hope I hope to hear some updates on

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00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.920
how these conversations go. Yeah,
yeah, please let us know. Oh

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00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.759
yeah, for sure. Okay,
yeah, come on, I'll come back

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00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.680
in and let you guys know.
Thanks again, have a good day,

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00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.759
all right, All right, that
was a great, a great starting call

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00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.519
for us. But I have a
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and some very fantastic people are going
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Jmike Secularity, and as long as
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be there as well. And I'm
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get in on that hang out on
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282
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and some other community members that will
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tickets at tiny dot cc slash back
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301
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your baby into public and show everybody
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302
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Jesus in the church like maybe you're
expected to, but you can put them

303
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in a very very nice talk here
than onesie and that's you know, maybe

304
00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.279
a little bit better to bring your
kid to church. So I wish,

305
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:38.640
you know, I don't have a
child to give a onesie too, But

306
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.960
maybe I could put my cat in
one. Or maybe that's cruel. I

307
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.759
don't know. Tell me, tell
me in the comments what you think about

308
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:51.400
me putting my cat in a talkie
onsie. Oh and we had somebody,

309
00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:00.119
David, David hacksor your name gifted
twenty talk Heathen memberships. Thank you so

310
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.400
much for that contribution. That's very
very generous of you and Secular Spirit.

311
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:08.599
Are you ready for another call?
Let's do it. I'm ready, alrighty,

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00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.720
I think I've talked to this person
before. Let's talk with Annie from

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00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.279
Canada. Annie, it sounds like, do you want to talk about what

314
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:25.119
caused the universe? Can you tell
us the summary of your question? Actually

315
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.400
I wanted to Oh, well,
first of all, nice to speak to

316
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:32.759
with you again. What I wanted
to talk about was a little bit of

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00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:37.680
what you spoke about with the first
caller. And what was said was that

318
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:44.880
Kristens can't close the gap between the
first car and their God, which is

319
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:52.480
true that like ontological and ontological arguments
don't do that, but you still need

320
00:23:52.519 --> 00:24:00.400
to concede that the universe was caused
if the argument, the cosmological argument,

321
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:04.519
specifically, it sound or disprove it, and atheism resistant to doing that for

322
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:08.200
some reason. So Annie, I
just want to jump in and say that

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00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:14.279
I do not claim that the universe
was not caused. I don't really know

324
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.240
any people who make that claim.
I'm sure there's possibly some out there,

325
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.359
but I do not claim that the
universe was not caused. I just do

326
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:29.839
not accept that there was a supernatural
cause to the universe. So, and

327
00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:36.880
I don't necessarily know what this natural
cause would be. I'm not a physicist,

328
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:38.400
and there's a lot more that I
need to learn about this. But

329
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.880
that's not me saying that there is
no cause. It's just I would much

330
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.799
more easily accept a natural cause as
opposed to a supernatural cause. Does that

331
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:55.079
make sense? What you're saying makes
sense. I understand your argument. Am

332
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:59.279
I allowed to respond to that?
Yeah? Absolutely well. To say to

333
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.279
ask for an natural cause of the
universe, what does that mean? Because

334
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.440
the universe is everything that is natural, So to ask for a natural cause

335
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:12.160
to everything that is natural is to
ask for the universe to bring itself into

336
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:18.119
existence, or at least no,
not necessarily. Not necessarily. Okay,

337
00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.200
I'm a little bit curious starting the
question around to you, what makes you

338
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.480
say that the universe had to have
been caused by a supernatural cause? How

339
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:30.000
did you get there? Well,
I just explained it's impossible. For since

340
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.279
the universe is all of that is
natural, everything in everything that we know

341
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:41.799
and can ever know, then to
suggest that something or equality of the universe

342
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:47.279
is the cause of the universe is
just a logical impossibility. It's not a

343
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:52.319
real idea. It makes sense in
English as a sentence, but logically it

344
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.640
doesn't make any sense. It's like
a spirit. It looks like you wanted

345
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.200
to jump in a second ago.
Uh sure, yeah, Hi, Hi

346
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.160
Annie. I'm also in Canada.
By the way, I'm in Toronto.

347
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.960
Thanks thanks for calling and asking this
question. It's a really good one.

348
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.079
And what I always think about is
when it comes to these big kinds of

349
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:17.119
questions, I just adopt the approach
of, well, I don't really know.

350
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:21.200
There might be a lot of things
that are beyond our knowledge currently.

351
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:26.440
We might figure them out eventually,
and you could be right. Maybe there

352
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:32.759
isn't anything within our observable universe that
created the universe, but we don't really

353
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.880
know. We can't rule out there
being something beyond our observable experience. There

354
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:42.160
might be something that is natural,
but we don't understand that it's natural.

355
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:48.880
And where I get stuck is so
you said that it's impossible logically for the

356
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:53.160
universe to create itself. I don't
know what a supernatural cause could be,

357
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.119
what domain it exists, and if
we could even say that it exists in

358
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:03.119
a domain, So it almost seems
an abstract, meaningless thing. That would

359
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.559
also be impossible to say that there's
something outside of nature, and I don't

360
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.839
know how to bridge that gap.
Well, I guess it's just something you

361
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:17.319
understand or you don't understand, because
you can't bring something. For something to

362
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.480
do anything, it has to already
exist, so something can't bring it.

363
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.279
That's not the case. That's not
the case though. That's not the case

364
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:30.160
though, because we know things emerge
from combinations of other things. This is

365
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:36.880
the case with a lot of even
different elements, different minerals, many different

366
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:41.319
natural things did not originally start out
that way. They started from something that

367
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.599
was not those things, And so
I think that's a problematic argument to make

368
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.839
that something would have already had to
exist. It's just like when we get

369
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:56.440
arguments about consciousness. I don't believe
that consciousness was something that already existed.

370
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:02.839
It was an emergent property of having
chemical and physical activity within a brain.

371
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:07.799
And no, we can't necessarily explain
the minutia of how all of that happens.

372
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:12.599
We're working towards further understanding, but
I don't accept that premise that something

373
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:18.359
had to have already existed in order
to make something different or make something else.

374
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:26.000
Well, the difference between the universe
and objects or elements of the universe.

375
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.640
Let me start again. It is
not accurate to compare the create what

376
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:36.359
the first cause of the universe,
to thing that think, to element,

377
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.000
to atoms of I'm so sorry,
just giving you a second, take your

378
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.599
time, please, thank you.
I just don't It's yes, there are

379
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.200
elements and chemicals that come from elements
and chemicals, but those things are all

380
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:56.319
part of the universe. We're talking
about what created everything, what was the

381
00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:02.039
cause of everything, not what was
a cause of Yeah, and I think

382
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.279
this is this is where we have
a difference. The fact that you seem

383
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:11.200
to need to have a concrete answer
to this question, and I don't.

384
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.839
I don't have an exact answer for
what caused the beginning of the universe,

385
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:22.039
And I'm willing to admit that I
don't understand how you get to this needs

386
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.680
to like this needs to be something
supernatural, and that you have an answer

387
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:33.680
for this question when I'm not convinced
that there's one answer to this question.

388
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.599
There's so many unknown variables here,
and it sounds like you want an answer

389
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:45.440
and are more interested in having an
answer than kind of looking more into it

390
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:49.000
and wondering what we could be missing
with trying to find an answer to this.

391
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:52.480
Well, I'm not sure about that. I don't think that's what my

392
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:57.680
intentions are. To go back to
what I was saying before, we understand

393
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.000
that things nothing comes from nothing,
everything comes from something. That is,

394
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:04.799
how did you get to that?
How did you get to that claim?

395
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.559
If you're saying, especially if you're
saying that we understand this, how did

396
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.440
you come to that understanding? How
did I come to the understanding of what

397
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:18.880
you please act like, yeah,
the understanding that something has to come from

398
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.240
something and that nothing could come from
like something can't come from nothing? How

399
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:27.319
did you how did you get to
that understanding? It's nothing, it's it's

400
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:33.359
a foundational truth. Nothing. How
do you know that? How do you

401
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.839
know that it's a foundational truth?
Are you pulling a common sense argument?

402
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.480
Is that what you're saying, No, I'm saying that. It's like A

403
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:45.359
is equal to a. There is
no A is not A is equal to

404
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.079
a. So something is equal to
something and nothing is equal to nothing.

405
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:53.000
For nothing comes from nothing. There
is no. That's not no, that's

406
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:57.319
not it. That's not You're making
two different arguments here. So something coming

407
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:02.160
into existence is not the same thing
as an argument of A equals A.

408
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.559
Like you're using an identity argument and
then trying to talk about things coming from

409
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.200
other things. So something coming from
something else is a process, and so

410
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:15.359
that's different distickly from an equation that
is an identity. And so I think

411
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:19.680
what's happening here You're trying to like, like, what you're essentially communicating to

412
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:26.559
me right now is that you have
this understanding that you believe is fundamental understanding

413
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.240
to just how the universe works and
how the world works. But the problem

414
00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.759
is we disagree on it, and
so we can't go back and say that

415
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.759
this is a fundamental thing that we
all understand, because we don't agree on

416
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:41.519
it. So I need to know
why are we in disagreement? How did

417
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.319
you get to this and we didn't
because just saying this is just something that

418
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.039
we all know, isn't that?
That's not going to convince me that you're

419
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.759
correct here. Okay, so you
said that nothing is an identity? What

420
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:57.759
is that? That is nothing?
So nothing is an identity. Nothing is

421
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.160
equal to nothing. I don't under
like how how you get something from nothing?

422
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:07.200
When nothing is nothing, it does
nothing, it's nothing. So I

423
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.119
don't know how much math background do
you have. But if we were to

424
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:15.039
make an equation, yeah, it's
very easy to say nothing equals nothing because

425
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.200
we've assigned terms to either side of
the equation. But understand that when we

426
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.319
add bigger equations, or when we're
trying to make proofs that something can lead

427
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:28.640
to something else, you have other
variables there. And so when we manipulate

428
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.960
those variables through addition, subtraction,
multiplication, division, et cetera, adding

429
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:37.039
other variables, adding powers of two, powers of three, et cetera,

430
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:40.000
when we manipulate that we are no
longer in a equals a, we have

431
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:46.920
a situation where A could equal X
plus y to the fourth like. Oversimplifying

432
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:54.559
that process to an identity equation is
not proving necessarily what you're suggesting it does.

433
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.839
And so I get that this is
an analogy and not meant to be

434
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:05.960
kind of taking one for one like
as a like an equivocal situation. But

435
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:12.400
it's not as effective as of an
analogy because we're not dealing with single variable

436
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:17.799
equations. We're dealing with a lot
of variables, and things can transform as

437
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:22.960
you do proofs, as you add
more variables, and and so we're missing

438
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:28.480
the dynamics of this question. You
have a very static analogy trying to be

439
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:32.440
used to communicate a dynamic reality,
and so I think that's where we're kind

440
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:37.000
of missing this. But I need
to know how you're how you're getting to

441
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:39.559
this point, secular spirit, Do
you want to weigh in it all?

442
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:44.200
No? No, I just want
to give this space for antitudors. Respond

443
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.160
Yeah, well, how how how
do you know? There are a lot

444
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:50.400
of variables? And can you tell
me what those variables are? I can't.

445
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.279
And that's the thing. We know
some variables, we don't know all

446
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:55.759
of them, and I don't know
if we can know all of them.

447
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.960
And so that's why it's difficult for
me to say we have an answer on

448
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:05.039
what caused the universe, because there's
so many more variables that we can even

449
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:10.119
account for. And that's what you
get into with astrophysics and with these experts

450
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.320
who know a lot more than I
do. They've been working their entire lives

451
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:19.199
to account for these variables, and
they find more variables. And it's the

452
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.119
same thing with any subject matter.
It's the same thing with human biology that

453
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.760
I've been studying for a long time. There's always more variables that come up,

454
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:30.280
and we do the best that we
can with applying what we know currently

455
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.639
because some variables we don't really need
to We don't really need to know to

456
00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.119
help somebody, you know, get
over their pneumonia. I know enough variables

457
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:44.639
to address that. But with something
so complex and so far removed as the

458
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:50.400
origin of the universe, we don't
have enough knowledge to really make any claim

459
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:53.679
about it other than we need to
learn more, and I'm not convinced that

460
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:58.519
there is a specific answer right now
that we can point to. Well,

461
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.559
then how is it wonerful to talk
about anything if we must assume there are

462
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.280
an infinite number of unknown variables to
every question. Well, and that's what

463
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:12.239
we have to That's kind of the
nuance of it is what do we what's

464
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.320
the utility of what we're arguing,
and how are we using that information?

465
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.800
And in this case, I would
say, for the most part, arguing

466
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:24.480
the origins of the universe really is
not super useful. In general. It's

467
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.599
not getting us a whole lot of
places to have those discussions. However,

468
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:32.480
it does matter when people are claiming
that they're the origin of the universe is

469
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:38.519
a supernatural being that influences your day
to day life and tells you who you

470
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:44.199
can marry, where you can live, how you live your life, and

471
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.239
that does matter. So that's why
we have these conversations. And that's why

472
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:52.719
I take up these arguments, because
people are using their answer to make other

473
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:58.079
claims. But otherwise, if we
didn't have that issue, I wouldn't need

474
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:01.199
to debate this at all. Okay, So in your view, it's not

475
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:07.159
useful to debate the origins of the
universe. It's only a problem that people

476
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:12.000
have an opinion on the origins of
the universe. That is my perspective.

477
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:15.840
There are other people who study the
origins of the universe that might say that

478
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:22.320
there are scientific applications to helping our
planet with fuel sources, et cetera.

479
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:27.960
They have probably some other reasons why
they would argue this. This is purely

480
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.960
my perspective. I personally do not
think it's very useful in the things that

481
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.480
I'm needing to discuss, and it
just sounds very I don't understand then,

482
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:42.360
why you invite debate if you're not. Oh, no, we do.

483
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.639
And that's what's I just mentioned.
Are we value this kind of debate because

484
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:52.800
you are using this to justify the
existence of a supernatural being who then makes

485
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.400
decisions about my life. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people being

486
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:02.880
hurt by this rhetoric. And that's
that is the reason why we're arguing this

487
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.239
secular spirit. Do you want to
well, I just wanted to add this

488
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:14.639
other point. The risk that comes
with the claims from some believers that their

489
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:16.960
God created the universe, was the
origin, the first cause of the universe

490
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.559
is if we feel like we already
have the answer, well it was God,

491
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.480
then it could stop us from delving
into if you want to call it,

492
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:30.800
the mysteries of the universe. Learning
more about the universe around us.

493
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:36.760
It's underpinnings how it works, and
it could actually stop us from searching figuring

494
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:42.519
out potentially the actual answer to this
question instead of the one that feasts just

495
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.679
give us without much evidence. So
it does have that potential cost too.

496
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:50.280
It's hard to quantify what it is, but it is a risk. Okay,

497
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:55.159
okay, So so I guess the
question for you. Can I actually

498
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:00.480
ask a question? Yeah, yeah, Annie, I just wanted to ask

499
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:05.719
you a question. Is it important
for you to know that there was a

500
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:12.199
first cause of God who created the
universe, as opposed to just not accepting

501
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:14.880
that maybe we don't know the answer. Is it important to you that you

502
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:19.480
have an answer to that question?
It's not a matter of important, it's

503
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.039
a matter it's the fact that the
question exists and there is an answer.

504
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:28.280
It doesn't matter if the question is
important or not. The question can be

505
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:31.199
asked. It's always, It's been
asked for all of history. I've asked

506
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:36.199
it and there is an answer.
So yeah, okay, there is no

507
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.800
answer or there's no point in I'm
searching for the answer. No, no,

508
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.119
no, not at all. I
just don't we just don't know.

509
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.719
We were just saying we don't know. Yeah, well I want the answer

510
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.079
to that question too, And you're
right there there has to be some answer

511
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:52.039
that we I just feel like we
don't have access to it yet and we

512
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.480
might never have access to it.
Okay, But once again, if we

513
00:38:55.159 --> 00:39:00.400
the possibility that mainly never have access
access to the answerer, than the discussion,

514
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:05.599
as doctor Ben put it, is
pointless. Well, no, it's

515
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:09.119
not like the possibility of never having
an answer isn't a reason to just give

516
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:15.079
up and not look for answers.
Agreed. It's it's like we may never

517
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:20.320
fully understand, like like from medicine, we may not fully understand every single

518
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:22.360
condition that can happen to the human
body. But that doesn't mean that we

519
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:27.559
should just quit now and let people
die like that. That's that's not what

520
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.559
we should be doing it. And
so I think I think we're I think

521
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:37.119
this discussion maybe we need to continue
next time you call in, just because

522
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.599
there's a lot of the depth here, and I think we've covered some ground.

523
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:43.039
We're saying, please, please,
just one. We're saying, yeah,

524
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.400
go for it, go for it, Thank you so much. I

525
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.559
think what I was trying to say
when I asked my previous question. Actually,

526
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:53.320
when I made my previous statement that
the discussion is pointless, is that

527
00:39:53.719 --> 00:40:00.000
now I, as a cis feel
calling into this show is pointless because when

528
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.119
whenever you meet an objection that you
can't refute, you just say, well,

529
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:07.559
maybe there are unknown variables, Like
what's the point of me calling in?

530
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.559
If you're just going to escape through
the Rules'll say, that's you,

531
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:15.920
and that's that's my question. Like
how how are you so confident that there

532
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.159
is an answer and that the answer
is your answer? How did you,

533
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:22.800
like, I guess, let me
ask that what how confident? On a

534
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.920
scale of zero percent to one hundred
percent, how confident are you that your

535
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:32.360
answer is correct? I am confident
there is an answer regardless of whether or

536
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:37.360
not my answer is correct, and
we can have a discussion to find the

537
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:43.039
answer, and which requires us having
faith that there is an answer. But

538
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:45.840
if we always say there are unknown
variables, that we may never know the

539
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:49.639
answer, then there can never be
a discussion. There's no point in.

540
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:52.039
It's not true. That's not true. Though that's not that's not true.

541
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:57.960
Well, yeah, I disagree with
that for the reasons I already mentioned that

542
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.360
not having an ultimate end answer or
does not mean that the entire discussion is

543
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:09.320
pointless. And I think it is
problematic to jump to a conclusion that might

544
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:14.239
not be correct. If you're saying
that whether or not your answer is correct.

545
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:16.280
I think it's okay to think that
there is an answer, and we

546
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:21.920
agree with you that there has to
be an answer. We will concede that

547
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.760
there is an answer. We just
don't agree that your answer is correct,

548
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.920
and so that's where our disagreement is. And so we're trying to get at

549
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:35.920
what made you confident that your answer
is the correct one. That's what we're

550
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:40.840
asking. I assume, okay,
I'm answering because I assume that there are

551
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.760
no unknown variables that I have to
consider. How do you know that that

552
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:51.199
assumption is correct? I don't.
That's where you and I differ. I

553
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:53.320
am a CS so I believe in
God. That means I believe in truth.

554
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:55.960
You're an atheist. You don't believe
in God. Therefore you don't believe

555
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.760
in truth. So if you don't
believe in God, you don't believe in

556
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.800
truth. So I want to know
how you got to that point. How

557
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:06.920
did you get to the point that
that God is truth? It's because the

558
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:10.480
creator of the universe would be the
source of everything that we know. Therefore

559
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:15.480
it would be true. Okay,
So what I'm hearing is that would be

560
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:20.760
the case if your assumption is correct. So you're automatically assuming that you're correct

561
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.239
and then making your decisions based on
the assumption that you're correct. Right,

562
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:29.400
It's doesn't that sound? Doesn't that
sound to you a bit overly confident in

563
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.079
your answer? Well, I guess
that's what what do you Is there any

564
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:37.079
margin of error for you at all? Yes? Like, I can be

565
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.800
wrong about a whole bunch of things. But I know I can be wrong

566
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.039
because I know that I can also
be true. I can also be right.

567
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.199
You don't know if you can be
right or wrong. But if you

568
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.880
just assume that you're right, Like
if I if I say, let's say,

569
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:53.840
going back to math, if two
plus two equals four. But I

570
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:59.920
say, you know what, I'm
just going to assume that two plus two

571
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:04.199
equal seven, And if you don't
believe that, then you're wrong. Would

572
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.519
I be reasonable to And then if
I made every decision in math based on

573
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:12.639
that assumption, does that mean that
I'm correct just because I've asserted that of

574
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:15.599
course not, but we know that, so I would have to justify how

575
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.039
I got there. You can't justify
how you got there just by saying I

576
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.800
know that this is true because it
is, and that I know I can

577
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:27.320
be wrong about other things because I
know I could be true. But the

578
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.159
thing that you're you have that is
true is something that you just asserted was

579
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:35.639
true. I'm not yet convinced that
you've demonstrated that your truth is true.

580
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:38.800
You and I both know that two
plus two equals four, So I'm so

581
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:45.119
that's why you can you're wrongly comparing
my argument to two plus two equal seven.

582
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.880
You haven't shown that my argument is
like two plus two equal seven,

583
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.800
And you haven't shown and you haven't
shown that your God is true. Ben

584
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.840
if I could make a point too, So Annie, if I could just

585
00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:01.400
make this one point the challenge I
see where you're coming from in terms of

586
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:05.599
believing that you know you believe in
God and this God is the truth.

587
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:10.719
The challenge for me is how do
I know your specific God is the truth

588
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.559
and not some other feist's version of
God version of truth? Like I grew

589
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:21.000
up Muslim, and there's a lot
of key ways where the Islam's God and

590
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:25.840
Christianity's God are not compatible. There's
direct contradictions with some parts of the beliefs

591
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:30.920
that Muslims and Christians have. So
who has access to the truth here?

592
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.639
So you don't need to believe my
God is true. You just need to

593
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.960
believe that God is truth. The
creator of the universe, the force of

594
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:40.679
everything that we can know, would
be truth. Like my God has nothing

595
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:44.639
to do with it. The creator
of the universe would have to be truth

596
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:49.079
itself, I think, and with
that the truth. Yeah, I think

597
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:52.280
we need to move on. But
for the next time that you call,

598
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:57.880
I want us to pick up from
how we got to the assumption that God

599
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.480
is truth, because we're not convinced
and it's not something that we're going to

600
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:07.199
assume is correct. You have to
demonstrate to us why that point is correct.

601
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:10.039
And so I think we'll move on
for today. But please call in

602
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:14.760
again with that argument and we'll go
from there. Okay, thank you so

603
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.239
much, Thanks so much calling in. Thank you for calling it nanny.

604
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.480
But yeah, but yeah, Ben, you could see why I asked that

605
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:27.719
question, because when when we have
theists talking about having access to the truth

606
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.280
when it's abstract like that I actually
don't really mind it. It's kind of

607
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:37.159
harmless. But to your point about
how these kinds of things actually harm people,

608
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:39.199
it's when you have someone I'm not
saying this about Annie to clarify,

609
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:46.920
but let's say a feist believes that
LGBTQ people are exactly against the order of

610
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:52.840
nature and that is part of the
truth of God. Then that's where the

611
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.079
risk is because you might encounter another
feist who doesn't feel that way. So

612
00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.679
how do we know which theist has
access to this actual truth? We don't.

613
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.039
Yeah, yeah, and that is
why we have these discussions. And

614
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.840
some of the topics seem frivolous,
but that is that is what we get

615
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:13.440
to these arguments, and it's super
important to make sure that we're addressing these

616
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:17.119
appropriately. And with that, we
have the time of the show where we

617
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:22.639
talk about our patrons, and if
you want to get your name on this

618
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.960
list, you can go to our
Patreon and sign up. And this list

619
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:32.960
changes every week. So our top
five patrons of the week we have Dingleberry,

620
00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:38.920
Jackson, Oops, All, Singularity, de voor Valginkleevi, Helvetti Left

621
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:45.760
in the Leaves, and our honorable
mention is Cat so congratulations to our top

622
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.679
five of the week. And we
have a couple of super chats that I

623
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:55.239
want to read as well. We
have one from Nash five Canadian says,

624
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:59.760
Annie was such a good caller.
These are very good ideas and questions to

625
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.719
be asked. Was such a good
conversation, Ben in secular Spirit, good

626
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:07.519
show so far. Thank you so
much for your supports and your super chat.

627
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:12.599
And then we have Miranda Renzberger,
who's been a member for two months,

628
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.920
says, I guess five dollars and
says making up an answer is not

629
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:20.440
the same thing as finding the answer. Absolutely, any thoughts about that.

630
00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:23.920
Well, also, just feeling or
having faith that you have the answer is

631
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:29.679
not the same as it being the
actual answer. You need to find a

632
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:31.559
way in which to determine it to
be true with some sort of evidence,

633
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:36.880
And for me, faith is not
enough. Yeah. Absolutely. For the

634
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:43.280
next call, let's take Michelle she
her from California, sounds like you want

635
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:47.840
to talk about near death experiences.
Tell us your story. Hey, thanks

636
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:52.360
for having me on. I appreciate
it. Yeah, what's your experience.

637
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.159
I'm excited to hear about it.
So this was in the late nineteen seventies.

638
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:01.960
When I was a teenager, I
had a pretty serious UH event and

639
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:07.840
had a couple of surgeries, and
during one of the surgeries, had an

640
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:13.639
adverse outcome had a near death death
experience, which I didn't know about at

641
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:16.960
the time, of course, but
I did have kind of a weird experience

642
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:24.880
while I was in surgery and had
this weird kind of dream like state while

643
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:30.320
I was under an esthegia, and
later on found out that I had a

644
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.639
near death experience, and I thought, oh, okay, that's what that

645
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.880
was. Now. I was raised
specular, which was unusual in the seventies,

646
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:45.400
but the experience was not religious at
all. I was black and white,

647
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:47.440
kind of like Keystone cops, like, you know, a train was

648
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:51.800
coming on the tracks and I was
trying to get a car off the tracks,

649
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.719
and then I woke up in the
recovery room. It had I didn't

650
00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:59.960
know about NDEs back then. It
wasn't until I was, you know,

651
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:04.159
went through medical school, went through
residency and all of that, and then

652
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.119
I learned, you know, okay, these are a thing, and your

653
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:14.239
brain probably makes these up later and
then religious started being off the all this.

654
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:19.719
So I just wanted to like let
people know that not all of these

655
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.880
are religious. Not all of these
are people that you know, drop to

656
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:30.719
their knees and you know, except
Allah or Jesus or whoever Vishnu, some

657
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.280
of us have them and you know, go on about our lives, and

658
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:39.920
honestly, I rarely ever thought about
it really until I started watching a lot

659
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:44.280
of atheist contents on YouTube, to
be honest. So I just kind of

660
00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.760
wanted to push back on some of
the religious people saying that you know,

661
00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:51.880
near that experiences prove God. Yeah, that's that's amazing. Do you say

662
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:58.159
your residency, what what specialty?
I started off in family medicine and then

663
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.079
I switched to psychiatry. Oh amazing. I'm actually working on switching from family

664
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:07.800
medicine to internal medicine. So I'll
be joining this switch rough club. Yeah.

665
00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:14.840
I'm obviously probably going to retire in
maybe another five six years. Yeah,

666
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.480
I'm at the end of my career. You're at the beginning. Yeah.

667
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:22.920
Well, that's amazing though, that
we have some secular psychiatrists out there

668
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.559
that are doing some amazing work.
And of course I don't know you personally,

669
00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:31.000
but I know in a field that
can be very heavily influenced by religion.

670
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:36.840
Happy to hear that there's some secular
folk doing some good work. We're

671
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:44.440
pretty we're actually pretty secular as a
whole psychiatrist and neurologist to be pretty secular.

672
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:46.559
But yeah, this was minor death
experience as a teenager. This is

673
00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:51.880
back in the seventies. Yeah,
and NDEs, you know, people have

674
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.519
been experiencing these for a long time. People didn't, you know, tend

675
00:50:55.559 --> 00:51:00.840
to popularize this quite a lot back
then. Nobody made a big deal out

676
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:05.039
of it or a big fuss,
And it wasn't really until maybe the eighties

677
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.159
or nineties that I started hearing about
it, and that's when I started thinking

678
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:12.719
about it. But oh yeah,
I had I had that experience. Mine

679
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:15.400
was not religious. It was you
know, like I said, it was

680
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:21.199
like a like an old black and
white movie. And honestly, I never

681
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.000
really thought about it until religious people
kind of co opted it, and then

682
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.599
I started thinking about it a little
bit more and I thought, you know

683
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.480
that I'll call and tell you about
it. Yeah, that's awesome. Do

684
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:35.320
you have any tips, I guess
for people engaging with these kinds of arguments,

685
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:42.320
Any any particular things that you've said
to people that it maybe brought this

686
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:46.159
up to you about indic Yeah,
have you had any discussions with people who

687
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:51.960
believe that they are supernatural experiences?
And if so, are there any discussion,

688
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:57.800
like any any kind of methods of
discussion that you've used in talking with

689
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:01.440
them. So, if it's a
patient, I I don't ever uh push

690
00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:06.639
back on patience and what they believe. If it's like in a s setting

691
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.840
or you know, family or friends, it depends. And if I am

692
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:15.840
going to push back on a family
member or a friend, I tend to

693
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:21.440
use Socratic approaches with folks. Well, why do you believe that? And

694
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:27.079
what methods do you use to determine
the you know, how you know what

695
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:29.519
the truth claim? You know,
how is that? How do you know

696
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:32.679
that that's true? You know,
how would you test that? Things like

697
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:37.440
that? And if they, you
know, get kind of squirrely about it,

698
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:40.239
then then I drop it. I
don't I don't tend to push it

699
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:45.400
too much. I you know,
I I don't know of anyone else that's

700
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:51.320
had an actual INDE. So I
haven't really had a lot of experience with

701
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.920
that as far as I know,
I'm the only person in my my little

702
00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:59.719
circle that has had an actual NDE. They're they're not really all that,

703
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:04.800
you know, and people would have
you believe it, like half the population

704
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.119
has had these and it's really not. But people have all kinds of other,

705
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:13.880
you know, supposed supernatural experiences,
but these are just feeling, you

706
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:15.840
know, we all get to stealing, and I just tend to ask people,

707
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:19.920
you know, well, how do
you know that that's God? I

708
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.239
mean, how would you you know? Why do you believe that? It's

709
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.920
a really great question. I think
that's the key one to ask. Ye.

710
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.400
I always wonder how much how much
stock fists have in those kinds of

711
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:37.199
near death experiences. I know in
the US there was that really massively popular

712
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:40.119
book I think it was called Heaven
It's for Real, where it was just

713
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:45.559
sharing the story of like a child
who had gone through a near death experience,

714
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:50.239
and I hear it get mentioned quite
often. So I do wonder how

715
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.599
much do people, when they're thinking
about their own faith, do they feel

716
00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:54.360
like, well, there's all these
near deaf experiences, people seeing the white

717
00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:59.360
light and all that, and how
much of it is just like a secondary

718
00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:01.480
thing where they just leave anyway and
then this is just something that comforts them

719
00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:07.719
that they're already right, Yeah,
exactly, yeah, for sure. All

720
00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:12.559
right with that, I think we're
gonna move on to some other calls.

721
00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:17.039
I appreciate you bringing your story and
really amazing that you're able to have some

722
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:22.320
of these discussions with people. Thanks
for calling in, Michelle, and good

723
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.480
luck to you both and take care. Thanks, have a good rest to

724
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:30.000
your Sunday. All right, we
have another caller uh in the queue.

725
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:37.039
We're going to talk to Jeffrey.
He him from Pennsylvania, wanting to follow

726
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:45.639
up on previous argument advocating for theism, wanting to discuss God's truth. Jeffrey,

727
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:49.039
can you summarize your argument for us? Sure? Ken, How you

728
00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:51.599
doing? Doctor Ben? And hey, Secular Spirit, It's good to talk

729
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.039
to you guys. Hey Jeffrey and
hear me. Yep, we can hear

730
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:59.079
you. What's your what's your argument
today? Okay? Yeah, I think

731
00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:04.360
uh shout out to Annie, sat
out to Michelle as well. I disagree

732
00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:07.440
with Michelle with regard to to ndees. But Annie spoke about how God is

733
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:12.760
true. And I can't really speak
for because she didn't say it specifically,

734
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:16.639
but I would imagine she may have
taken her cue as to why why she

735
00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:23.000
knew that God is truth, because
this is exactly the message that Jesus brought

736
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:27.880
us. I love, I love
being hurt. Yeah, we're just listening

737
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.559
to your argument. Okay, great, I was hearing a bunch of beeping

738
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:32.480
in my well. Okay, well, Jeffrey, I just wanted to also

739
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:37.599
mention. Uh, Jeffrey, I
just wanted to mention I don't think Annie

740
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:40.559
clarified that she was a Christian.
Man. You could correct me if I

741
00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:45.199
mistaken. I don't because you mentioned
Christianity or Jesus once when she was talking

742
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.840
about gods. So maybe she is
Christian, Maybe she isn't. I'm not

743
00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:51.880
sure. But I just wanted to
make that point because of the point I

744
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:55.559
was making earlier that who has access
to this truth of God? Which which

745
00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:00.679
religion, which faith to meet?
It's unclear. We all we all have

746
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:06.000
access to it. So why do
different people disagree about which God is correct?

747
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:12.519
Then? I think it's because we
believe different information. How different religions?

748
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:15.079
Yes, how do you know your
information is correct? Well? This

749
00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:19.360
is the Uh, this is actually
the burden of I guess every man and

750
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.320
woman born on the planet, they
got to figure out they got to figure

751
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:27.800
out given their their life, Uh, in their life, what is truth?

752
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.599
You know? The thing that what
the was it? Pilot, I

753
00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:34.360
believe asked Jesus what is truth?
This is a this is a question we

754
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:37.800
all ultimately have to answer because there's
so many lives out here that And I

755
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:42.760
think what's happening is because we live
in what is really a dark world,

756
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:46.119
and Jesus is the light of the
world. We're in in darkness, and

757
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:50.880
so there's a lot of lies that
we're born into, you know, and

758
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:53.079
we and we see that all around
us. And I think people are inundated

759
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:58.320
with lies around them, and so
now they have no confidence in the truth

760
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:02.239
even in this in this pokemon,
I heard the term post truth world being

761
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:07.360
guanteed about these days. You know, people don't even believe there is truth

762
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.119
anymore. You see, that's how
dark this world is. So when Jesus

763
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:14.159
comes in and says I am the
light of the world, we should listen

764
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:16.960
to his words so that we can
be enlightened and move out of this darkness

765
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:21.320
that we're all in. And for
you, Jeffrey, how do you know

766
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:24.239
that it is Jesus that is the
truth? Like, how did you determine

767
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:28.400
for yourself. I understand what you're
saying about how everyone has to go through

768
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:31.440
this journey and figure that out for
you personally. How did you figure out

769
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:35.880
for you that this is the truth
one hundred percent, no doubt. Good

770
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:39.119
question. So I heard or I
read, you know, I was made

771
00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:43.920
aware of Jesus's words, and when
I got an understanding of what he was

772
00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:47.360
saying, I obeyed, you know, his commandments. And when I began

773
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:52.800
to obey his commandment, I found
confirmation of the truth that he was in

774
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:55.760
fact the truth that was my own
personal journey. What was that confirmation?

775
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:01.039
Like, what does it look like? There is in the confirmation? There

776
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:07.800
is mutual joy, excuse me,
mutual love between people that I interact with.

777
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:14.039
There is understand increased understanding of the
things that are going on around me,

778
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:19.599
things that perhaps before hearing or getting
that understanding, I was perplexed by.

779
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:22.239
And I just felt like again like
I was in that darkness that I

780
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.800
was, you know. But as
as as the Spirit of God began to

781
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:32.239
minister to my mind and began to
reveal the truth, you know, it

782
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:37.960
gives you peace, It gives you
a certain confidence, and people take that

783
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:42.920
confidence as being arrogant. Well,
I can't really be apologetic before my confidence.

784
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.000
I mean, it's just something that
I'm experiencing. People can call a

785
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:50.840
confirmation bias, and that's usually what
happens. But I guess we all have

786
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:54.719
confirmation bias. But after we do
we do that. So, Jeffrey,

787
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:59.079
sorry, sorry if I interrupts,
I just have a question for you,

788
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:04.760
just about the inner peace you felt, like the in yourself when you when

789
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:09.320
you accepted Jesus. The thing that
I find is, so my background is

790
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:14.280
Muslim. I used to be Muslim, and I remember when I was a

791
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:17.559
practicing Muslim that I had those feelings
too, like I had the feeling of

792
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:23.320
inner peace and you know certainty that
this is the truth. But for Muslims,

793
00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:27.400
they don't believe that Jesus is the
son of God. For example.

794
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:31.039
They believe that he was a very
important prophet of God, but they don't

795
00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:35.360
have that same belief about him being
the son of God and part of the

796
00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:39.480
Trinity for example. So my question, my question to you is I had

797
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:43.679
that inner I had that inner peace, that certainty, but I didn't have

798
00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:47.039
belief the same beliefs about Jesus that
you do. So can you See why

799
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:52.880
I bring that up because there might
be more than one pathway to attaining confirmation

800
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:57.320
of one's faith beyond just your belief
in Jesus. I think to the extent

801
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:02.000
that Islam, it's on any type
of truths. And if you encountered those

802
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:06.280
truths, why you were in Islam, and you embrace those truths, I

803
01:00:06.320 --> 01:00:09.159
think that's the source of your peace. See, the peace that I'm talking

804
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:14.199
about can only come from truth,
can only come It's exclusive, it's holy,

805
01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:16.079
it's set apart, but it exists, and a lot of things that

806
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:20.639
people realize don't realize that it does
exist in you know, don't get me

807
01:00:20.679 --> 01:00:24.079
wrong, but you have to investigate
things. And when you encounter truth,

808
01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:27.880
one of the things that it does
do is it does bring truth. I

809
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.800
mean peace. Excuse me, but
you see my point, Jeffrey, when

810
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:35.000
it comes to me, Let's say, when I was a Muslim, I

811
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:39.079
did not accept Jesus as my savior. I didn't accept the Christian version of

812
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:43.840
Jesus as the truth. So in
that sense, I was in a set.

813
01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:46.280
I was rejecting the truth of Jesus, wasn't I? And for a

814
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:51.480
Muslim who will look at a Christian
saying that Jesus is the son of God.

815
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.280
A Muslim would see that as blasphemy, and so in that sense going

816
01:00:55.320 --> 01:01:00.199
against the truth. And so the
thing I get stuck on on is I

817
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:06.000
totally respect your believe that it's really
important that you get those things like inner

818
01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.639
peace from your certainty about Jesus.
But how do we know it's it's actually

819
01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:15.280
the truth when there's so many people
with varying claims about this truth. Okay,

820
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:19.119
well, I think that one of
the things in my faith tradition of

821
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.400
popular saying is well, not a
saying, it's a scripture. I'll just

822
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.440
forget where it's at. It says, oh, taste and see that the

823
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:29.400
Lord is good. Though there is
an experience in the tasting, you know,

824
01:01:29.559 --> 01:01:31.960
that's just using a word. They're
tasting. In other words, when

825
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:37.119
we interact, because we're interacting,
we're interacting, we believe with an actual

826
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:43.800
mind, a person who we hold
as the creator of all things. So

827
01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:47.119
we can interact with this, with
this person, and when we experience the

828
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:51.960
goodness. And I should have mentioned
that as the other confirmation, not only

829
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:55.159
the peace, but the goodness that
I that I not only felt, but

830
01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:59.920
you know, walked in and existing. You know, whenever I experienced goodness

831
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:06.480
in my life, these were manifestations
of the God who said and declared that

832
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:09.599
he was good. In fact,
he actually declared only he is good,

833
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.800
you know, and we and the
goodness kind of just flows through all of

834
01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:16.199
us as we stand in agreement with
what he says, so we share in

835
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:21.320
that goodness. But that is also
a confirmation. So I have some questions.

836
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:27.960
Is it possible for people to find
peace in something that is not good

837
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:30.480
and not true? No, I
would say absolutely not. How do you

838
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:35.960
know that if somebody says that they
are at peace, If someone says that

839
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:40.039
they're at peace because of something that
they believe is holy, would you push

840
01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:44.840
back on that? Well? I
mean, I just happen to know that

841
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:51.920
inherently a lie something that's not true, right, it can't produce goodness so

842
01:02:52.000 --> 01:03:00.079
to So yeah, but sometimes sometimes
those things cause people this same inner peace

843
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:05.920
that they cause to other religious people. An example I'm going to go to

844
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:13.440
are people whose children die from refusing
blood transfusions. These kids are martyred like

845
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:20.119
they're considered martyrs by the Jehovah's witnesses
because they bravely accepted the rules of their

846
01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:27.119
faith and denied life saving treatment because
of what they believed. And that thing

847
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:31.679
gives people peace. It gives people
who believe that peace that their family member

848
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:37.360
made the right choice in their eyes. So if this, if this,

849
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.440
if this knowledge of truth comes from
you know, the feelings of peace and

850
01:03:42.519 --> 01:03:46.639
all that, would you push back
against this particular belief And if so,

851
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:52.840
does that feeling then not necessarily indicate
that something is true or good? Not

852
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:58.760
only not only the feeling. You
wouldn't just I wouldn't just focus on strictly

853
01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:01.800
the feeling and that the two regular
thing that's you specific example that you gave,

854
01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:05.800
because just because they got peace about
it doesn't mean that was good.

855
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:11.000
I have to reflect. So then
how do we define goodness? You define

856
01:04:11.239 --> 01:04:15.280
goodness? You have to judge a
tree by a fruit, the fruit that

857
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:20.599
is that is manifested. And I
wouldn't just go with the parents peace about

858
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.800
it and say, oh, that's
a good thing. No, I would

859
01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:28.440
say that first of all, I'm
very close to that particular thing, that

860
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:33.239
that particular incident or example that you
gave, because I have Jovah's witnesses in

861
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:36.679
my family. But I'm not I
am not a Jehovah's witness. And that

862
01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:43.800
is because I investigated and found that
the scripture that they're basing, that whole

863
01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:48.719
refusal to take blood transfusion is faulty. I discerned the darkness. I discerned

864
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:54.519
the lie right, And so how
did you determine if you're able to determine

865
01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:59.519
the lies from their religion? How
did you go about approaching yours? How

866
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:04.039
did you find out that your faith
is true and that you're adhering the true

867
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:09.400
things and not false things? Yeah? I had answered that earlier. When

868
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:12.280
the word came to me, I
listened to it. I heard it.

869
01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:16.639
First of all, how did you
know that that voice was the right voice?

870
01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:20.000
If you will, how did you
know? Well? First of all,

871
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:25.880
the truth made itself manifest to me
in the in the the Word of

872
01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:29.880
God was made flesh in Jesus Christ. What does that mean? What does

873
01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:33.079
that mean other than you felt that
it was true? It means that the

874
01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:38.880
truth was actually made flesh and dwelt
among men and women. And how do

875
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:43.039
you know that? How do you
did the word become flesh right in front

876
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:47.559
of your eyes? And like did
Jesus sprout from the page and walk up

877
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.679
to you slap you on the face
and say this is the correct one.

878
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:54.239
How did this? How did this
happen? You're describing a lot of very

879
01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:59.599
vague things of like this manifested for
you and like you discerned these things.

880
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.880
I need to know if I'm going
to have the same experience that you did,

881
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:04.920
if I'm going to read the same
book and find out that it's true,

882
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:09.599
how is that process going to happen? Like how did you have that

883
01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:13.679
process? And how is this going
to convince me that it's true? Because

884
01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:15.400
I should have a similar experience,
right, Like if I read the book

885
01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:18.239
and if it's true, and if
I should just know that it's true,

886
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:21.400
I should be able to replicate what
you did and have the same result.

887
01:06:21.519 --> 01:06:26.360
Right, Yeah, you're skipping something
that I said that's very important, which

888
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.360
is not just hear the word,
but when you hear the word and have

889
01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:32.079
faith in it, then you obey
what is commanded of you. And then

890
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:36.320
within the obedience there is confirmation of
the truth of the thing. So you

891
01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:41.320
have to already believe it before I
can believe it. Is that what you're

892
01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:44.599
saying, So you hear it,
but then you have to But then you

893
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:47.519
have to like it kind of sounds
like you have to hear it and then

894
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:51.000
you have to already commit to it, and if you don't commit to it,

895
01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:55.599
then you're not going to believe it. The faith comes from guys,

896
01:06:55.599 --> 01:06:59.480
a gift of God that he gives
to every man and woman who hears his

897
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:01.360
word. Yeah, except for I
tried and it didn't work for me.

898
01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:08.639
And there are several things that I
will not I will not try because I

899
01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:12.800
mean, a lot of the Bible
tells me that I cannot be who I

900
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:15.039
am. So all that being said, it sounds like you're just kind of

901
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:18.960
preaching, and so well, if
you want to call back next time,

902
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:23.440
we'd be happy to address this more. But I want you to think,

903
01:07:23.639 --> 01:07:27.880
like, go home, think about
what of your story is going to convince

904
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:31.480
us, Like, what can i
do other than just already believing something,

905
01:07:32.559 --> 01:07:38.239
because I'm not convinced and I did. I was a Christian and I was

906
01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:42.199
very committed and I believed the things
that I was taught. I had that

907
01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:46.719
sense of inner peace like it mentioned, but I ended up not being convinced

908
01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:51.519
now. And so I want you
to go back and kind of think through

909
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:56.960
your reasoning of how you got to
that and we'll talk to you next time.

910
01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:00.800
Thank you, Jeffrey. Yeah,
Ben, And before we jump to

911
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:04.079
the next car, I just wanted
to make a point of tying into something

912
01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:11.239
one of the channel followers sent in
about Mother Teresa being in hell? Was

913
01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:15.079
Mother Teresa a saint? I believe, someone who is revered by a lot

914
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:19.840
of Christians, and the whole notion
of you judge a tree by its fruit,

915
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:25.399
like so goodness by its fruit.
And when you consider the incredible amount

916
01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:30.479
of suffering that she allowed to continue
in her hospitals for the dying and sick,

917
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:33.840
is that a good thing? It
was that the path of truth,

918
01:08:33.880 --> 01:08:38.640
the path of Jesus. And that's
the thing that scares me too, is

919
01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:42.399
whichever religion you look at, you
can see a lot of horrible examples of

920
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:46.560
what this faith has led to.
And so again the question remains, what

921
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:49.439
is this truth? Who has access
to it? Because you can point out

922
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:56.560
flaws in every direction. Absolutely,
And with that we're going to move on

923
01:08:56.960 --> 01:09:04.840
to Stephen in Florida, who wants
to talk about some different interpretations of the

924
01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:11.960
Bible. So Steven, can you
summarize your question or comment to us?

925
01:09:12.560 --> 01:09:15.039
Hey, guys, thanks for taking
my call. I first would like to

926
01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:21.000
bring up with what Annie said,
God is not truth. You could argue

927
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:28.199
that Christianity, it has forty five
thousand different denominations globally, so you could

928
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:31.479
say it's it is the most divided
religion known to man. Therefore, you

929
01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:36.920
could argue that Christianity has the less
truth out of any religion due to the

930
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:47.880
expansion of different divisions or denominations.
If Christianity was truth, it would the

931
01:09:47.960 --> 01:09:53.560
reality. It would just exist.
People would be able to find it without

932
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:59.560
a book or a prophet or somebody
trying to teach them what reality is.

933
01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:03.960
It would just exist. And so
I did call in for a different purpose,

934
01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:10.880
just to bring some light onto if
we took the Bible literally, but

935
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:15.039
I would. I would like to
now challenge your Christian callers or your religious

936
01:10:15.039 --> 01:10:20.600
callers, mainly Christians, that believe
that Jesus died for them, what tangible

937
01:10:20.680 --> 01:10:28.600
proof do we have that Jesus's sacrifice
even was accepted by God. The only

938
01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:32.039
thing we know about life, the
only certainty of life, is death.

939
01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:36.760
And if Jesus paid the ultimate price
that we owe to God, and that

940
01:10:36.920 --> 01:10:43.359
was Semitic death, why are we
still born into a sinful world. And

941
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:47.279
if you believe that, why wouldn't
you be outsinning as much as possible so

942
01:10:47.399 --> 01:10:51.479
that Jesus's death isn't in vain.
Yeah, I think that's an interesting point.

943
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:56.479
I kind of want to address the
topic you had called about, because

944
01:10:56.680 --> 01:11:00.560
the theists in the chat can call
in with their responses, but I don't

945
01:11:00.560 --> 01:11:04.439
want to. I don't want to
assume their perspective on this issue without them

946
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:11.039
being around. But I am very
curious about your original topic because it just

947
01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:15.319
seems interesting to me. Yes,
sir, absolutely. You know, other

948
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:19.560
than Adam and Eve having three sons
who populated the world, you find interesting

949
01:11:19.640 --> 01:11:25.439
stories in the Bible, like,
for instance, if we use Jesus's baptism

950
01:11:25.479 --> 01:11:30.239
as a reference point, three days
after Jesus's baptism, all the apostles write

951
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:35.640
that Jesus goes into the wilderness to
resist the devil for forty days, but

952
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:40.000
John doesn't. John writes that this
is when him and Jesus are at the

953
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:45.159
wedding in Canaan, and him and
Jesus are both there along with Jesus's mother

954
01:11:45.319 --> 01:11:48.479
Mary, and John never says who's
actually getting married, but Jesus is having

955
01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:53.640
such a great time that this is
when he performs his miracle of turning water

956
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:57.720
into wine. Now, you know
they would have scare drinking water, so

957
01:11:58.119 --> 01:12:00.880
you can take that as you want. Jesus turning what little drinking water they

958
01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:06.159
had into more alcohol couldn't really be
deemed a miracle. But you know,

959
01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:11.760
that story doesn't matter until we get
to the Last Supper, where the beloved

960
01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:15.079
disciples or the Christians will say they
don't know who that was places his head

961
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:21.000
on Jesus's breast. But this could
also be the disciple whom Jesus married,

962
01:12:21.279 --> 01:12:27.439
considering the disciples didn't know where Jesus
was all but John because when he's also

963
01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:32.399
on the cross, John writes that
Jesus then entrusts his mother Mary to John

964
01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:36.359
in John's care, and we all
know that. You know, obviously the

965
01:12:36.399 --> 01:12:42.079
text tells us Jesus would have had
a stepfather, Joseph, So I was

966
01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:45.920
telling the screener. You know,
at the point of Jesus's crucifixion, Mary

967
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:49.479
would have been at least twenty one
twenty two years old. So it's possible,

968
01:12:49.640 --> 01:12:55.439
giving Joseph, Joseph's history of liking
little girls, that he just moved

969
01:12:55.479 --> 01:13:00.359
on to another virgin thirteen year old
girl when Mary was twenty one. She

970
01:13:00.439 --> 01:13:03.039
might have just been too old for
Joseph. I don't know if I accept

971
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:06.920
that interpretation, because I mean,
as far as I know about Jewish culture

972
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:12.479
back then, I don't think that
they would have easily just let somebody move

973
01:13:12.520 --> 01:13:15.239
on to somebody else. I think
they had some I don't know if there

974
01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:20.399
are specifically laws, but they definitely
had customs around, like monogamy and staying

975
01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:25.760
with us as spout. I know
that they would often like take additional wives,

976
01:13:25.960 --> 01:13:30.239
but I just don't know. I
don't know if I have the expertise

977
01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:34.239
even to weigh in as much on
this particular interpretation. But it's definitely interesting,

978
01:13:34.600 --> 01:13:38.520
right right. I mean, it's
just it's it's more of a whimsical

979
01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:45.279
outlook as because I am an atheist, so it's more of taking the Bible

980
01:13:45.479 --> 01:13:51.199
literally. How funny and childish the
stories are? You know, for example

981
01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:56.560
of Adam and Eve having three sons
who populated the world. You know,

982
01:13:56.880 --> 01:14:01.279
and you know, why how do
we have four blood tights that are divided

983
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:05.600
into eight groups negative, AB,
A, B and O negative and positive

984
01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:11.840
Depending on what you inherit from your
parents, you know this is all impossible

985
01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:15.319
from two people, and so you
know, the Bibles were feuded with basic

986
01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:18.840
science. But you know, if
I'm just I just wanted to call and

987
01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:24.079
say, if we just took the
stories literally, just reading the Bible,

988
01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:29.680
we could assume with the disciples not
knowing where Jesus is in the story except

989
01:14:29.680 --> 01:14:34.840
for John, and with John giving
Mary his mother on the cross, I

990
01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:39.720
mean, you could assume that he
was the beloved disciple that the Christians are

991
01:14:39.760 --> 01:14:44.560
always saying that nobody knows who that
was. Yeah, a secular spirit,

992
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:47.000
any thoughts. I always wonder about
this kind of thing of the Bible.

993
01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:50.720
So obviously I'm an outsider, having
grown up a Muslim, so I'm not

994
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:56.800
that familiar with the Bible. But
what really stands out to me is the

995
01:14:56.840 --> 01:15:04.199
sheer number of contradictions and variations and
details of Jesus' life. And what's most

996
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:09.119
interesting to me about it is when
we're talking about literal truth, the ways

997
01:15:09.199 --> 01:15:13.560
that a lot of Christian apologists get
around it, where you know, sometimes

998
01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:16.319
you just have to engage the text
and interpret it and the truth will come

999
01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:21.039
to you. All of them were
accessing the truth, but from different angles

1000
01:15:21.079 --> 01:15:26.880
and perspectives, but it's still the
truth. So what matters in the end

1001
01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:30.520
is whether it's literal truth, metaphorical
truth, allegorical truth, whatever you want

1002
01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:33.159
to call it. The Christian is
stuck having to believe that it's true,

1003
01:15:33.439 --> 01:15:36.039
or it was true at some point, or that there's an essence of truth

1004
01:15:36.560 --> 01:15:40.319
through it. So I think it's
reached a point where, two thousand years

1005
01:15:40.359 --> 01:15:43.680
later, no matter what you throw
at them, what you throw at Christians,

1006
01:15:43.720 --> 01:15:46.239
they'll find some kind of way to
justify their belief in the Bible.

1007
01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:51.800
And I don't know what the solution
is to tackle that beyond asking for critical

1008
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:56.439
thinking and reason and to look at
it with an actual open mind, not

1009
01:15:56.520 --> 01:16:02.079
through the confirmation bias of belief.
Yeah, read a different book, Yeah,

1010
01:16:02.560 --> 01:16:06.199
definitely. There are those Christians who
are like I only have one book

1011
01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:10.560
and that's the only book I need, right, And most of them don't

1012
01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:14.800
even read it themselves. They pay
something no interpret it for them, you

1013
01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:16.359
know. And then when you like, you know, this weekend, I

1014
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:20.119
told my aunt the story of Lot
and she didn't even know that Lot was

1015
01:16:20.159 --> 01:16:21.960
in the Bible, and I mean, I was like, well, that's

1016
01:16:21.960 --> 01:16:26.479
a big character in the Bible.
Did not know, Yeah, especially the

1017
01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:30.760
sum of the unsavory parts of the
story of Lots and you know afterwards with

1018
01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.479
his two daughters. There's stories like
that where I don't really know what you're

1019
01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:36.920
supposed to take away from them.
Are they just are they just there for

1020
01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:41.159
you to just kind of be awe
struck. Are there morals you're supposed to

1021
01:16:41.199 --> 01:16:45.159
take from it? Because it's scary
if you do take it that way as

1022
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.000
a moral lesson, exactly, sir, Because the moral lesson that I got

1023
01:16:48.039 --> 01:16:55.880
out of that that I take away
is that God justifies insist with the first

1024
01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:59.680
family having three sons, they either
had sex with the mother or with the

1025
01:16:59.800 --> 01:17:02.479
daughter that the Bible doesn't say Adam
and Eve had. And then we get

1026
01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:09.720
a story of Sodom and Gomora where
the same deity kills all these homosexuals and

1027
01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:15.199
this problem solving all loving deity is
about to kill the entire world in almost

1028
01:17:15.439 --> 01:17:20.319
no time in the grand scheme of
time with an entire flood, but he

1029
01:17:20.359 --> 01:17:27.399
has to let you know how much
he hates homosexuals specifically before killing the rest

1030
01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:30.239
of the world. So, I
mean, if we're looking for things in

1031
01:17:30.279 --> 01:17:33.800
the Bible from the first few stories
we gather that no homosexuals died and know

1032
01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:39.600
the wood because the deity already killed
them before the flood happened. Yeah,

1033
01:17:39.720 --> 01:17:44.720
lots of interesting stuff, and I
agree that the book isn't isn't super reliable

1034
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:48.680
and there's a lot of contradictions.
We are going to move on, though,

1035
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:53.520
but if you have any more thoughts
about this, we do have the

1036
01:17:53.560 --> 01:17:58.880
Discord after show after this if you
would like to pop in and continue this

1037
01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:01.239
discussion. I'm sure we have lots
of people in the discord that'd be happy

1038
01:18:01.239 --> 01:18:04.760
to have a group discussion about this
as well. So thank you for calling

1039
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:10.399
in, and you guys, thank
you, Thank you Steven all right,

1040
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:14.800
And for those that weren't able to
get on the show today, I know

1041
01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:16.640
we had a couple of callers still
in the queue, but I want to

1042
01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:21.720
encourage you to also join us in
the discord for the after show because I

1043
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:27.119
think that those questions were really good
for a group discussion setting. And I

1044
01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:31.720
really hope you join us in a
few minutes because we will prioritize your questions

1045
01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:35.640
if we see you in there.
How did you enjoy today's show, Secular

1046
01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:38.920
Spirit? Oh, it was really
fun, Like it really flew by,

1047
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:42.560
didn't it. Yeah? Yeah,
I think that there were a lot of

1048
01:18:42.880 --> 01:18:47.479
really core important questions to feasts and
for that explored reasons why a lot of

1049
01:18:47.479 --> 01:18:53.199
people believe in God, and they're
really really important and I'm so I'm kind

1050
01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:55.279
of glad that we kind of covered
a lot of them, like near death

1051
01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:58.960
experiences, where did we come from? What happens after death? Where where

1052
01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:01.359
does truth come from? So yeah, really really good stuff to discuss.

1053
01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:04.119
Yeah, it's a great show,
a lot of variety, a lot of

1054
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:06.920
good calls, and I hope some
of these people call back so we can

1055
01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:14.640
continue our discussions here. But just
a reminder for the audience today we have

1056
01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:19.119
our talk. He then to me
question of what would Jesus tweet? And

1057
01:19:19.279 --> 01:19:25.039
I think we need to make those
bracelets from the eighties or whatever, what

1058
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:29.079
would Jesus do? Bracelets? But
what would Jesus tweet? Is now a

1059
01:19:29.119 --> 01:19:33.680
thing. So get your answers in
the comments and tune into the next week's

1060
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:40.079
show where we read the top three
answers because yours might be chosen. And

1061
01:19:40.119 --> 01:19:45.159
we want to thank Richard Jilliver for
helping out today as our backup host.

1062
01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:51.680
He was very kindly sitting backstage telling
us all the things that he thinks about

1063
01:19:51.800 --> 01:19:56.000
the variety of calls that we had, and we got to see his lovely

1064
01:19:56.079 --> 01:20:00.239
facial expressions as he was fuming with
a few different things. I just love

1065
01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:04.119
when I get to respond to philosophy
questions and he doesn't, and he just

1066
01:20:04.119 --> 01:20:09.239
gets to sit on the watching me
respond to philosophy question. Gonna lie.

1067
01:20:09.279 --> 01:20:13.239
That was the first two calls,
in fact, was I was kind of

1068
01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:16.199
saying, this is right on my
street. I so wish I was hosting

1069
01:20:16.239 --> 01:20:19.640
this week. It's great to get
a philosophy one way. It's not just

1070
01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:26.319
people shouting at you and telling you
that your grounding of being is wrong anyway,

1071
01:20:26.439 --> 01:20:29.000
So that'd have been that first call. Was great for that. I

1072
01:20:29.039 --> 01:20:32.479
love the beginning of the universe calls. That's kind of my wheelhouse as well.

1073
01:20:32.520 --> 01:20:36.960
So those first two calls as particularly, I was really like chomping at

1074
01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:42.439
the bit, shouting at the screen, typing madly and chatting all that other

1075
01:20:42.520 --> 01:20:45.720
great stuff. I just want to
thank you Secular Spirit for coming onto the

1076
01:20:45.720 --> 01:20:47.760
show. It's been great having you
along. Thank you for having me her

1077
01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:51.640
truth yes, and please tell us
I know you talked to us about the

1078
01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:56.399
beginning, at the beginning about what
do you do, But please remind the

1079
01:20:56.439 --> 01:21:00.880
audience who you are where they can
find you and hear more about your story.

1080
01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:05.640
Sure, I mean, I'm an
ex Muslim now atheist YouTuber. You

1081
01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:12.760
can find me on Secular spirit on
YouTube. I'm also on Twitter and Instagram.

1082
01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:16.479
I talk about organized religion in general, although my focus is on Islam.

1083
01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:20.720
I am starting to cover Christianity a
bit more in the recent months,

1084
01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:23.920
and I'm going to continue to do
so. And I just want to explore

1085
01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:29.239
where we get our answers for life's
biggest questions from and potentially maybe secular ways

1086
01:21:29.359 --> 01:21:33.560
of getting those answers and meaning in
our lives. Awesome love to hear everybody

1087
01:21:33.680 --> 01:21:39.560
go watch Secular Spirits channel. I
will be doing that as well. I

1088
01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:44.239
will be going and liking and subscribing, turning on notifications, all of the

1089
01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:46.239
things that you should also be doing
with this channel. Like I mentioned before,

1090
01:21:47.239 --> 01:21:53.760
but let's throw out some lover rings
to our audience. Jick and again

1091
01:21:54.000 --> 01:22:00.359
we have our discord after show for
anyone that wants to continue the discussion anything

1092
01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:02.760
that we've talked about today, or
if you have a new question or comment.

1093
01:22:02.760 --> 01:22:09.960
You'd like to mention that is tiny
dot cc slash ACD discord. If

1094
01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:13.920
you're not there yet, if you
don't believe this is your community. We

1095
01:22:14.039 --> 01:22:17.079
love having all of you here,
providing a safe, secular space for all

1096
01:22:17.119 --> 01:22:20.560
of you, especially those of you
who have maybe had to be around religious

1097
01:22:20.560 --> 01:22:24.720
family over the weekend and just need
a little break. We're happy to be

1098
01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:28.239
here for you. If you do
believe, we don't hate you. We're

1099
01:22:28.279 --> 01:22:54.399
just not convinced by everyone. We
want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted

1100
01:22:54.479 --> 01:23:00.760
Live Friday at seven pm Central.
Visit tiny dot cc slash YT and call

1101
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.119
into the show at five one two
nine nine one nine two four two,

1102
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:10.399
or connect to the show online at
tiny dot cc slash call tw