1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:09,480 Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, an 2 00:00:09,519 --> 00:00:14,560 idea. The population of atheist this country is going through the rule, rejecting 3 00:00:14,679 --> 00:00:19,719 faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:19,839 --> 00:00:23,800 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on a 5 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:29,199 book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. Take 6 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:32,640 the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness, truth, beauty, 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:38,880 and wisdom will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, 8 00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:47,439 and start thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 9 00:00:56,039 --> 00:01:00,840 My special guest was featured back in twenty nineteen in The New York Times. 10 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:07,200 She was featured as part of an online sting operation. In fact, they 11 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:12,400 called her a vigilante. That's my kind of guest. She is a skepticism 12 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:19,359 activist. She writes for Skeptical Inquirer. She's a co founder of the Monterey 13 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,560 County Skeptics. She has been awarded the James Randy Award for Skepticism in the 14 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:29,879 Public Interest. She is founder of the About Time project, which we'll get 15 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,120 into, and that's an umbrella for guerrilla skepticism. On Wikipedia, she is 16 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:40,400 an ambassador for the Center for Inquiry, and she can be heard on the 17 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:47,000 Skeptic Zone podcast. Not enough credits for you, my friend, Susan Gerbick, 18 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,079 So good to have you. It's great to be here. It's nice 19 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:55,959 as se sa. So you're dangling psychic bait. I guess we'll just start 20 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,280 with this whole sting operation. What are we talking about. Well, we 21 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,760 put together a whole series of investigations even before the New York Times article came 22 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,639 out. We always call them something operations, something something. So we've had 23 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:15,319 Operation ice Cream Cone, Operation peach Pit, Operation Tater Taught, Operation Onion 24 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,159 Ring, and so on, and so we put together all kinds of various 25 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:23,840 stings to expose people who claim to be able to communicate with the dead. 26 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:30,159 We mostly focus on those people who have some some sort of notoriety, maybe 27 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,280 enough to be able to have a Wikipedia page or have a TV and have 28 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,680 a TV show. Not necessarily the psychic that's down in the corner, you 29 00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:40,719 know, the corner of your street that has you know, does readings there? 30 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,439 Not that one. We're looking at the more prominent psychics, and we 31 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,439 do interchange the word psychic with medium, with grief vampire, because it's all 32 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,120 kind of one and the same to some extent. But I specialize mostly in 33 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:04,840 hot readings, and that is a unique how should I say? Most psychics 34 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,680 use cold reading and editing if they're on TV to make themselves appear to be 35 00:03:08,759 --> 00:03:14,520 real, but a very small subset of them use hot readings, which is 36 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,800 where they go in. They investigate the client beforehand, and then they appear 37 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:23,560 to know a lot of information about them. So when you have somebody you 38 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:29,840 suspect of being a hot readers, it's a you can sting am easier once 39 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:34,879 you know the ways they come about getting the information. You can plant information 40 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,439 that no way they could know unless they were reading your social media or whatever. 41 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,199 And so that's what we've done various times. Okay, well, let's 42 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,080 sort of unlayered that those onions real fast cold reading is this audience is going 43 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,759 to be well versed in much of this, but I know it might be 44 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:54,159 new material for some. So let's do our due diligence. Where cold reading 45 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,919 is what reading your clothing, your retire, your cadence, your gesture, 46 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,680 the way you smell, what's in your background on a zoom screen. And 47 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:11,000 then there are warm readings and hot readings. I know that some have actually 48 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,000 used Q cards. I know that there were some psychics who before you give 49 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,319 them audience, you know, especially some of the celebrities, you're filling out 50 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:21,519 Q cards and they're picking those up, and so they're already sort of pre 51 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,560 informed about the things that they're supposed to know psychically. Would that qualify as 52 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,319 a hot reading? I mean, help me out. Oh absolutely. Back 53 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,839 in the days of faith readers, faith healers and so on, the audience 54 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:38,319 would come in and they would fill out prayer cards, and there's various ways 55 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,759 that they would be able to get ahold of those prayer cards. Even Peter 56 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,199 pop Off back in James Randy's day, they would get a basket of these 57 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,600 prayer cards and he would just have his wife read one of the prayer cards 58 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:56,279 to people, and then he would cast it out to the audience. I'm 59 00:04:56,319 --> 00:05:00,800 getting Elizabeth Morgan who's at one five six North Seventh Street, who has arthritis 60 00:05:00,879 --> 00:05:03,920 all over her body. Well, she wrote that on the prayer card right 61 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,480 before she came in. That's hot reading also. And then once he gets 62 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,160 her up on stage or she stands up and the cameras are on her or 63 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:15,879 whatever. Then he just does his speel you know of like, oh God, 64 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:20,120 it is saving you. So faith faith healing has done hot readings, 65 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:28,560 and a hot reading could also be just as simple of my like maybe your 66 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,800 sister saying, hey, you've got to see this medium. She's great, 67 00:05:32,199 --> 00:05:35,639 and so you go see the medium and this medium knows all about you. 68 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,319 Well, yeah, your sister just told you all about about you know, 69 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,600 the problems you're having a work and so on. So that's a hot reading. 70 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,600 Anytime you have information about a person ahead of time is a hot read. 71 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,600 I was interested too. Some of the psychics have a team of researchers. 72 00:05:51,639 --> 00:05:56,480 They go out and comb the Internet for information about someone in advance of 73 00:05:56,519 --> 00:05:59,639 the visit. By the way, Peter Popaf for those who aren't of that 74 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,120 gen ration or familiar, he's still around. I think he's still a millionaire, 75 00:06:04,199 --> 00:06:09,639 which is just a travesty, but he would do these faith healing services. 76 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,199 And James Randy and another gentleman whose name escapes me were they're scanning radio 77 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,920 frequencies and they realized he had a receiver in one of his ears, and 78 00:06:20,079 --> 00:06:26,480 his wife was backstage and she would read into his ear so that he could 79 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:30,839 hear it from God miraculously. Hello, Pete, can you here me? 80 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:36,480 If you can't, you're in trouble. Junk pop Off was being prompted by 81 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:48,040 his wife through a wireless earpiece Dearly Johnson. She'd gotten her information from prayer 82 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:57,079 cards filled out by the faithful before the show began to get You want to 83 00:06:57,079 --> 00:07:03,319 get rid of this walker, sister, Oh glory, how long have you 84 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:10,120 been walking on that walk? Two years? Three years? She was sixteen 85 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:19,199 twenty seventh tenth Street, sixteen twenty seven tenth Street. That right, burning 86 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:26,120 this athritus bread out of your body. And this is how gullible people are, 87 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,600 or at least how much they want to believe maybe yeah, maybe, 88 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:33,720 how much they can't abide the idea that it was all a hoax. They've 89 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:40,120 already emotionally married themselves to the hope is that when he came forward afterwards and 90 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,439 said it wasn't an ear piece, it was a hearing aid, no one 91 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,639 stopped to ask why a faith healer would have hearing loss. I thought that 92 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:57,160 was a big omission. Um, tell me about grief vampires. That's a 93 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:01,319 term that you use often. Let's flesh it out well Mark Edward, my 94 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:05,639 partner, came up with that term. It is kind of to distinguish between 95 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,720 a person who communicates with who says they communicate with the dead, from a 96 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:16,720 person who's doing tarot readings or astrology or you know, tea readings or whatever. 97 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,360 It's somebody who's going to try to find your grief and try to latch 98 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:26,959 onto the grief, and your grief could be somebody who has died, or 99 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:33,440 it could be maybe you know that you you have in some sort of inferior 100 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:39,320 complex that you that they can use as a grief they can manipulate to get 101 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,720 you to do more readings and to take your money out of you, or 102 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:46,120 to get power over you. It's not always about the money. A lot 103 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,279 of it is about power, a lot of it is about manipulation. So 104 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:56,879 a grief empire is somebody who would be trying to find your grief, trying 105 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:01,240 to find a hook into you so that they can manipulate you for whatever reason 106 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:07,559 that they're manipulating you. So beyond the John Edwards types who are shilling these 107 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,519 psychic powers for cash, somebody a spouse, a life partner who is maybe 108 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,039 a malignant narcissist might be a grief vampire, sort of sucking you dry in 109 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,039 that way. Possibly. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way, 110 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:22,360 but I suppose so, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I 111 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:28,919 find that manipulators find people when they are vulnerable, or they find their vulnerabilities 112 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,519 and prey upon them. Right, The sociopathic part of them does not empathize, 113 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:39,360 and so it really becomes about control and serving the self. That's probably 114 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,320 a whole other conversation. You and I could go out for coffee and talk 115 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:48,399 about that, Susan forever. Okay, So you're creating fake social media accounts 116 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,679 as bait for the psychics, do I understand that? Yes, we've done 117 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,399 it in many different forms. We've done it using email, We've used Facebook. 118 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,840 You can do it also just in person to some extent, there's different 119 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,559 forms of doing it, depending on which way you think that it will bait 120 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:13,159 the psychic. And also sometimes I've done these stings to the same individual and 121 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,799 I don't want them to you know, I would think they'd be wary of 122 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:22,320 Facebook again, but no, we can catch them again using Facebook. I 123 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,039 don't quite know why they haven't caught on there. They're fully aware of what 124 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,039 I'm doing, but I think they haven't had enough repercussions, and I think 125 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,320 that's why they're just continuing because it's very successful for them financially, and there's 126 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,759 always another person who's willing to throw money at them. So if you and 127 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:43,480 I are having this very public conversation a burning the undercover agents, you know, 128 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,720 by talking about this. No, everything's hidden away, and I don't 129 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,000 think it's a problem at all. But people should be wary of what you 130 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:54,840 do. Not that you shouldn't put things on social media, but just be 131 00:10:54,919 --> 00:11:00,279 aware that anything on social media can be held against you. Don't assume that 132 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,000 you have some privacy controls, because we can find out almost anything about anybody. 133 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,399 Anybody who's been alive has had been in the newspaper. Either you mentioned 134 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:13,759 in an obituary for a family member, or you were in a choir in 135 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,759 elementary school, or you know, we can find information about you. So 136 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,639 don't be so complacent that you can't. Oh, you know, the internet 137 00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:26,960 already freaks me out. We were talking about a specific recipe the other day. 138 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,240 We were just talking. I wasn't on my phone, we were just 139 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,480 in the kitchen, and then I logged onto something and there was an ad 140 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:39,399 for the very type of food we were just talking about, and I was 141 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:46,840 like, yes, Lord, or yes Google or Facebook or somebody's watching or 142 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:50,320 listing. You know. When I brought in our Amazon Echo, I told 143 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:54,720 Natalie, I said, I can't believe I purposefully brought in an active listening 144 00:11:54,759 --> 00:11:58,600 device into the walls of my home. But at the same time, I 145 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,840 love it, you know. So when you say there is no privacy, 146 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:05,759 sometimes I wonder about the things I don't know about. Do you ever wonder? 147 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:09,200 Do you think maybe it's the stuff we aren't aware of that should be 148 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,320 the most terrifying. No, I'm not too terrified. Should be aware that 149 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,879 there is no I mean, there's always a way of finding out something or 150 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:22,360 and just pure chance I mean, or coincidence. Well, what's the again, 151 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,759 Share only as much as you can or wish to about your methodology. 152 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:33,000 But what is a fake social media account doing? Are you acting like a 153 00:12:33,159 --> 00:12:37,360 Mark? Well? Possibly? Okay, So our most recent sting is called 154 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:45,480 Operation Onion Ring, and we infiltrated a social spirit It's called a spirit circle 155 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:50,080 with eight people involved, four hundred dollars per person, and the psychic was 156 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:56,759 Thomas John and I've written about this so I can reveal whatever whatever would be 157 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:00,559 of interest to you. But what we did is I only have four days 158 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,799 to pull it off. What he was doing is he was going to the 159 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,399 spirit circle was focused on children from five to twelve, So we were kind 160 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,759 of not too keen on that idea at all. That was pretty pretty bad. 161 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:16,240 So what he would do is he was you know, they paid four 162 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,759 hundred dollars. The parent had to be there with them, and then they 163 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:26,039 came out to a zoom call and then they had he read them. And 164 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,080 what he was reading was their social media, their mother's social media presence. 165 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,840 Okay, forgive me, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I want 166 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:41,519 to be clear. A spirit circle where the medium was targeting young children. 167 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,519 Did I hear that right? Yeah? Well, they the parents paid four 168 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:48,039 hundred dollars for the child to have a reading from the medium. What's the 169 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,960 attitude of a parent, Oh, they totally buy it. They want their 170 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:58,320 child to be special. This, this particular spirit circle that we attended was 171 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:05,360 to help the child to understand that they may have mediumship qualities themselves, if 172 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:11,759 they saw spirit people or shadow people or whatever circumstances. Thomas John was explaining 173 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:18,320 to them that they possibly have powers themselves. So the parents were all into 174 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,399 it. They loved it, and in a lot of ways, the parent 175 00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:24,559 was getting a reading because of course the children don't have social media presence, 176 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,919 so what he would do was he would just say your grandmother or your great 177 00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:33,440 grandmother when referring to the child. But really what he was doing was he 178 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:39,399 was just reading the parents, the mother's social media and just regurgitating it so 179 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:45,080 it was aimed towards the child. Oh yeah, this is absolutely happening. 180 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:48,200 The parents were all for it. They were sitting right there next to them 181 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,879 and proud as heck that their child was getting a reading. Our little timmy 182 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,279 seems to have a gift kind of thing. Well, there was more that 183 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,200 it was explaining that a couple of the children we're saying that they no longer 184 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:07,360 could, were dreaming about their family member who had died, and they felt 185 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:11,240 egregious, you know, sad about that because the parent obviously is pushing them 186 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:15,000 is you know, the children are growing up and moving on and they don't 187 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,399 remember grandma like they did before. But the mothers, and it's always mothers 188 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,279 were pushing them again and saying, well, you know what about you know 189 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:26,399 when Grandma used to call you this, or grandma you know, you can 190 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,360 feel that the mother is still filling the grief, so they're they're laying it 191 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,039 on the child, and the child in at least two of the circumstances. 192 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,720 And I mean, I have this all recorded, and it was really hard 193 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:43,240 to watch. These children are crying when they're called on, and they you 194 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,720 just want to reach out and hug them. They just feels awful. They're 195 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,039 they're feeling like, you know, they're moving on, but the parent wants 196 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,120 them to stay in the place where they were, where they're connected to their 197 00:15:56,159 --> 00:16:00,879 parents, the grandparents or whatever. It's it's really difficult to watch one twelve 198 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:07,080 year old she was she was she was saying that she couldn't connect like she 199 00:16:07,159 --> 00:16:11,000 had in the past, and she felt you could feel that she felt so 200 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:17,480 much guilt about that. And the mother was, you know, kind of 201 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:19,840 like it'll happen again kind of thing, and Thomas down is saying, oh, 202 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:22,440 yeah, you're growing up. You'll move past the stage and then you'll 203 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,799 be able to get back to where you're connecting with dead people again. It 204 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:32,000 was It was excruciating to watch Seth. It was really hard. You feel 205 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:37,320 for these children. They're they're easily being manipulated and the parents are buying into 206 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,399 it. They loved it. This is great. In one case, one 207 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,759 of the parents was a medium herself, and we found her on social media. 208 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:49,240 Because it's on zoom, you could see her name right there. So 209 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:53,000 we just did a quick look on social media and there she was. She 210 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,799 had shut up with her six year old. She had an eight year old 211 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:02,840 son who refused to be on the call and so she showed up with the 212 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,079 other child instead because he's like, I don't want anything to do with this. 213 00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:08,039 But the mother was a medium. While she claims to be a medium, 214 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:12,920 she has a business some known name psychic medium that out there, but 215 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,839 she truly believes this is for the best of her children. Interesting. I 216 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:25,839 read an article years ago talking about how children trained to think in magical terms 217 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:30,839 grow up and often have a much more difficult time navigating the real world, 218 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:37,839 differentiating fact from fiction, truth claims that are false from actual truth. You 219 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:45,039 know, I don't know, have you developed an opinion about conditioning young people 220 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,400 for this sort of I don't know, for looking for supernatural or magical solutions 221 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,000 in the natural world. You know, I really don't know. I was 222 00:17:53,079 --> 00:18:00,759 raised in a religious household, totally credulous, totally believing in astrology and all 223 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,039 kinds of weird things. But you know, I turned out all right. 224 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,359 I think that, Well, I'm glad for that. People say so, 225 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:14,759 but I think that we really don't. We really don't know. I think 226 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,440 it just depends in the environment. These kids may rebel completely against their parents. 227 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,240 In the long run, we don't know. I think that it's not 228 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,759 healthy. I think in there, in there, this childhood, in this 229 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:30,640 time when they're just starting to form their opinions about things, I think it's 230 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,319 I think it's dangerous. But I mean, the argument could also be made 231 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:37,279 that Santa Claus is telling them Santa Claus is real. Is dangerous. At 232 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:41,319 the very least, it made me a late bloomer. It took me, 233 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,680 you know, an extra few decades to realize that maybe, you know, 234 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,119 maybe that a lot of these outlandish, outrageous claims might not be substantiated. 235 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,440 But you know, there's hope. I got there. I mean, I 236 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,519 got there, so if I can figure it out, maybe someone else can. 237 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:00,559 Um all right, Well, let's say you have experienced grief hypothetical I've 238 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:04,480 lost a child. And I only use that because it is an example. 239 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:11,079 I think of the type of raw grief that people experience when they are preyed 240 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,400 upon. And so somebody hangs a shingle and says, I speak to the 241 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,759 debt, I can connect you with your lost child. And I go in 242 00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:23,039 and pay whatever the fee is, and I sit down. What kind of 243 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:30,240 thing might I experience if a grief vampire targets me? What might I be 244 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,440 in for? Well, if it's a local, you know, psychic and 245 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,039 so on, they're probably just going to try to keep How do you come 246 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:41,960 in regularly, maybe every month or every week or a few times a year, 247 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,200 to come in and get a terror reading or a or whatever and say 248 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,039 they're communicating with your child. It could be just that simple that you know 249 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,559 it's it's It depends on how you want to evaluate that is, if that's 250 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:00,519 harm or not. I think anytime anybody's lying to you, especially about something 251 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:07,640 as personal and intimate as a death, those people, I don't think necessarily 252 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:14,160 you're going to do hot readings other than once you've gone to a medium, 253 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,119 and you go to them again, it's a hot reading because they've already seen 254 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,960 you, right, so they can just make a few votes and say, 255 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,680 oh, the last time she was here, she talked about her sister who 256 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,039 had died, you know, And then the next time you come in, 257 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,480 they just say, oh, your sister wasn't she's here again, and now 258 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:32,160 she's wearing a blue coat and she's out in the garden. I mean, 259 00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:37,640 that's a hot read obviously when you have it multiple times. But if you 260 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:44,519 are one of these victims that is had lost a child, and I see 261 00:20:44,519 --> 00:20:48,720 this all the time on Facebook, where you can see how people are posting 262 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,200 over and over. They're posting years even after the death of their child or 263 00:20:53,240 --> 00:21:00,559 their other family member, and it's just the posts are very emotional, you 264 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:03,559 know, they're talking about happy times they had with them and so on, 265 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:10,960 and then how much they miss them, and it's it's it's painful to see 266 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,920 that. They probably should see a grief counselor of some sort, but not 267 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:22,559 a psychic medium, because what happens is we manipulate the memories. Right. 268 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,680 So a lot of these people say they're helping the grief vampires say they're helping 269 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,079 out somehow manipulating the grief, you know, helping them to the grief. 270 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,200 I don't. I don't think lying to somebody is ever going to be helpful. 271 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,799 I think that there are experts who are licensed and trained to be able 272 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:40,839 to do this, to be able to help you with through your grief. 273 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,599 And we all grief differently, so it may take a very long time for 274 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,200 some people to get over their grief. But when somebody's manipulating it saying, 275 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,160 you know, oh, your dad was a really happy guy. He just 276 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,400 loved you so much, and you know, these could be very complex emotions. 277 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,240 You don't know what actually is behind that. The father may be abusive, 278 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:07,440 and now you feel this a massive amount of guilt over how you spoke 279 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,160 to your dad towards the end of his life, when you've always thought he 280 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,720 was this, you know, not too great guy, and now the psychic 281 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:17,640 saying, oh, he's he was actually a really good guy. You know, 282 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,680 I don't know. It's just wrong for somebody to be telling you a 283 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:26,240 lie about something and reformatting your memories. You know, you're thinking differently now 284 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,200 because a memory is apparently, as science tells us, it's not like putting 285 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,440 a VCR back in the day, putting a VCR in and it plays at 286 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,559 the same time. Every time you listen to that, you access that memory. 287 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,680 You tend to rewrite your memories over time, so if somebody is telling 288 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:48,799 you a new memory, then it could be just as real as the real 289 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,599 memory. So you know, we really shouldn't be manipulating people like this. 290 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:59,680 Talking here with activist and skeptic Susan Gerbick, who has done a lot of 291 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,759 work dealing with learning about and exposing psychics, especially at the celebrity level, 292 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:08,200 do you think they're wrong grifters or do you think some people, some of 293 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:15,039 these readers, psychics, mediums are just deluded, they really believe the bullshit. 294 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,839 Well, when you get into the higher levels where they're on TV and 295 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,920 they're hot reading, then there's no doubt in my mind that they know darnwell 296 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,759 what they're doing, because you cannot go on to somebody's social media account and 297 00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:33,880 get some tidbits that you repeat later as if they came from the hereafter or 298 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,480 the spirit world and not know that you are totally making this up and that 299 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:42,359 you're grifting them. So a hot reader knows darnwell what they're doing. Same 300 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,640 with it when they get into the editing process where you can make things happen 301 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,240 and change things around. The real magic happens in the editing room, as 302 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,240 you probably know, Seth, So you can make people sound better or you 303 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:00,680 know, take things out or change things around. It's not that difficult, 304 00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:03,920 and people have been doing it for a long time since we've been able to 305 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:11,000 do this with TV shows. But there are a few people, and my 306 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,880 partner Mark Edward says that probably two point five percent of the population are actually 307 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:22,039 good people who have talked themselves into this and believe that they really are helping. 308 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,200 Another two and a half percent, he says, are probably not. 309 00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:34,319 They're having some sort of mental problems. They think they're communicating with the dead. 310 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,160 But he says, and he's been around a lot longer than I am 311 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,759 in this world, ninety five percent are just they know darn well they're fooling. 312 00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:48,720 Though some too believe their own bit, you know, they think that 313 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:53,680 sometimes they get sometimes a coincidence happens, or people are gushing all over them 314 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,279 about, Oh, what an amazing person you are, Oh my gosh, 315 00:24:56,279 --> 00:25:00,720 your gift is amazing, And I think that probably SI they think, you 316 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:04,519 know, maybe I do have a gift here, but we tend to count 317 00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:07,119 the hits and ignore the misses, right. I mean, you walk into 318 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,000 the grocery store one hundred times, not without incident, and then on one 319 00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:15,920 hundred and first time you bump into someone you haven't seen in thirty years, 320 00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:21,039 and wow, the universe must have coordinated this encounter. It's everything happens for 321 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:23,039 a reason. You've heard that one, right, So yeah, and you 322 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,359 did just earlier in the in the call, you said that maybe the echo 323 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:30,359 was you were in the kitchen and you heard a rest and you were talking 324 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,039 about a recipe and then then used to get an ad. That's remembering the 325 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,880 hits and forgetting the misses right there, because you've probably see ads all the 326 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,839 time for food products that have nothing to do with the conversation you've had earlier. 327 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,960 There was a study that was referenced in the New York Times article from 328 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:56,640 twenty eighteen. Nearly ninety five thousand psychic quote businesses exist in this country right 329 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,880 now, to the tune of two billion dollars in a well revenue big business. 330 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,240 You want to speak to the money. Oh my gosh, that is 331 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:10,160 only what we know about. So a lot of the psychics use cash or 332 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,559 they use cash apps, so I'm sure that's not being reported. So just 333 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,839 you know, expand that tenfold, and that's probably more what we're talking about 334 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,759 as far as finances. And then the pandemic happened and with the lockdown, 335 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:27,559 people have become a lot more insecure. They you know, you had a 336 00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:32,279 lot more death, You had a lot of people not able to say goodbye 337 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,920 to their family members. They're taking them to the hospital and then you know, 338 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,480 maybe you could FaceTime them and that was it. So during the pandemic, 339 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:45,759 psychics moved to zoom and as people lost their jobs and so on and 340 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:51,079 they needed an employment, they would turn to just putting up a Facebook page 341 00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:57,079 and doing readings. So it's been really prolific during the last few years that 342 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:02,920 we even have more people who are their psychic and able to do these readings 343 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,440 on TikTok. Oh my gosh, you can't. You you can't go five 344 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,880 feet without bumping into somebody who's doing terror readings or horoscopes or or that kind 345 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,200 of thing. So I'm sure they're not reporting most of that income. So 346 00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:22,160 that what was a two billion dollars or yeah, that's probably nothing. I'm 347 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,119 sure it's far more than that. By the way, that's the plot of 348 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,759 one of my favorite horror movies. It's on Shutter it's called Host, and 349 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:34,480 it's about an online seyance that goes horribly wrong. That of course being fiction, 350 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,960 and we know all about it. The whole idea of a zoom I 351 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,920 guess the word seyance, you know, the reading whatever. You know, 352 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:48,759 you're supposedly connecting to the spirit world from long distance. You know, what 353 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,160 a wild twenty first century phenomenon. Have you been involved? Have you watched 354 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,440 in the wings an online zoom thing? What's it look like? What does 355 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,079 it feel like? Oh? Absolutely, it's quite emotional. You feel very 356 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,279 badly for the parents, for the people in the event. It's it's I 357 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:12,200 mean, they're crying and they're just reaching for anything. If you're in a 358 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,880 one of these events, and I've been a many of these events, like 359 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,200 you have three hundred people on the zoom screen and the psychicists calling on one 360 00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:23,480 or two people in the chat area. You can see people calling out for 361 00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:29,119 anything, like maybe the psychic will say I'm getting a Michael and he's got 362 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,680 a connection in New York and something about fishing. Well, you can imagine 363 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,319 how many people that would, you know, relate to thinking about how many 364 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,519 people we actually know. And you see people in the chat going, I 365 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:44,400 have a Michael, I have he fished? Oh my gosh, and yes, 366 00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,400 he lived in New York or whatever, and they're they're clinging onto anything 367 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:51,599 to try to get the psychic's attention. Me me, me, me, 368 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:55,039 that's my guy, that's my guy, you know, and it's just it's 369 00:28:55,119 --> 00:29:00,240 so emotional and they're you know, but you had mentioned or the young child 370 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:07,119 with the the online meeting, and I wondered, had you ever submitted yourself? 371 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:15,240 Have you ever in some way relatively anonymously engaged the medium? Oh yeah, 372 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,400 Well that's the whole New York Times article, is that. Mark Edward 373 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:25,279 and myself myself went in Operation I'm setting you up, Susan, I want 374 00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:27,599 to hear the story. Oh oh my gosh, I'm full of story. 375 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,720 So Operation Pizza role Mark Edward and myself we went to the reading as different 376 00:29:33,759 --> 00:29:41,759 characters. We went as Susannah Forsyth Wilson and Mark Wilson because we had id 377 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:48,119 in those names and we my team had created social media. Over ten days, 378 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,519 they created social media for the characters of Susannah Forsyth Wilson and Mark Wilson, 379 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:59,799 and in those Facebook pages that told a story about our lives. It 380 00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:03,720 was totally fictional and we did not have access to those Facebook pages, so 381 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,680 we didn't know what was on those Facebook pages. And when we walked into 382 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,720 the venue and we sat down, we know what we did is I texted 383 00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:18,160 the team and said I'm in the building, I'm sitting here, and then 384 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,759 my team went onto those fake Facebook pages, tagging the psychic saying, Oh, 385 00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:26,119 I'm here, I'm so excited to be here, and so on. 386 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,039 I really hope to get into contact with my dear twin brother Andy, who 387 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:34,359 died of pancreatic cancer and so on. So they just continued the story. 388 00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:40,319 Now, Mark and I were given a little bit of information to attend because 389 00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:42,559 we had to know when to raise our hand. When the psychic is up 390 00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:47,279 on the stage and he says I'm getting a twin brother who wants to reach 391 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:49,480 out to his sister, I have to know when I'm going to put my 392 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,799 hand up. So we were given a basic amount of information him and I 393 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:59,480 for two different stories. And so when the psychic and it was Thomas John 394 00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,440 again, I mentioned an operation onon ring. He gets up and he says, 395 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:10,079 I'm getting when who wants to reach out to his sister? I raised 396 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:12,119 my hand, and then he says, and then I think he died of 397 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,799 something in the stomach area. I think it was pancreatic cancer. And then 398 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:19,119 I said yes, And then I pretend to cry. You know, I'm 399 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,119 dabbing at my eyes and so on, and then he went on reading Mark 400 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:29,559 and myself for fifteen minutes about characters we had no idea any information on, 401 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,200 and he went in depth, and he kept reading and reading about our family, 402 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:37,359 and we kept pretending to cry, and we didn't have the answers. 403 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,759 So sometimes he would say things to us and we would just pretend, Oh, 404 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,200 that was my father, No, I think it was my brother. 405 00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:48,359 Oh yes, we did live in Michigan for a while. I don't know 406 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,640 what's on the Facebook pages. The psychic obviously does. I don't. So 407 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,559 how do you reconcile that? Whenever you're all done? And he says, 408 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:01,720 you know, we don't expose yourself at the event. We wait until we're 409 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,799 outside of the event, and we do our research and we look at the 410 00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:10,680 Facebook pages to see what was recorded and what was actually on the Facebook pages, 411 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:15,319 and he's he's basically reading the Facebook pages back to us that we had 412 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:20,480 no idea what was on those Facebook pages. So that was pretty much the 413 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:25,640 plot of Operation Pizza Role right there. Boo boom. So you he's supposed 414 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,319 to have an immediate psychic connection to you the person, but the profile is 415 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:36,240 somebody else, somebody, and he never reads me or Mark. So now 416 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:39,960 I have obviously real dead people in my life. Well that sounded really weird. 417 00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:43,519 No, I understand say there are people in my life. I was 418 00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:45,000 gonna say, I understood this spirit of what you were saying. But that 419 00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:50,039 made it even worse. Susan, go ahead, go ahead, s But 420 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,279 he never once said that. He never said anything about my real parents who 421 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,559 have died. He never said anything about my sister who has died, or 422 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,319 Mark's family. It was it was. He never said, you know, 423 00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:07,920 I'm getting something nefarious about you, that you're here under false pretenses, that 424 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:13,079 the money that paid for these readings, which was one hundred and sixty dollars 425 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,240 a person, was came out of a fund given to you by James Randy. 426 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,519 I mean, my gosh, that should have really alerted him, you 427 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:23,640 would think, But no, he didn't read me, he didn't read the 428 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:29,160 person who was sitting in front of him. He read the Facebook profiles that 429 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,440 we had planted as bait for him to find. And so it was so 430 00:33:34,519 --> 00:33:39,480 obvious he's hot reading and this isn't the only circumstances. And Operation Onion ring 431 00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:45,759 with the children. We planted children in there. We brought children in and 432 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,359 he did. It was over zoomed. So he's got eight children there and 433 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,599 two of them are from our team. One of them is Bailey Harris that 434 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,559 your audience may know her and her mother sat there. She was twelve, 435 00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:01,359 well she was fourteen, but played a twelve year old and she sat there 436 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,359 the whole time, for two hours with these other students. And then we 437 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,280 had a team in New Zealand and they're there and all they were given was 438 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:20,159 I made fake emails and I made the accounts as generic as possible of the 439 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,280 email so you wouldn't be able to search for him Joe Martin, and then 440 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,199 I gave him a story in the email. I sent them the email and 441 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:35,960 it said just some basic information about the child who was attending. And then 442 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:39,440 he read them, and all he read was what was on those Facebook I 443 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,800 mean the emails that I had sent twice, and he went through and just 444 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,280 gave them all the information that was on there, just changed a little bit 445 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,519 to make it sound like it was coming from the dead, I guess, 446 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,679 and then he added a little bit of color. Because what I did is 447 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:58,880 I made it so impossible for him to google those persons, because it was 448 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,880 it was a very very narrow amount of information I gave him. And because 449 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,800 I'd given him four hundred dollars and were you know, two people out of 450 00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:12,239 the other out of a group of eight, he had to he didn't have 451 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,239 a lot of information. So he just read that little bit and at no 452 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,559 time did he read them personally, like he didn't say, you know, 453 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,880 something about the dead persons that would be in their actual lives. He just 454 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,440 made generic statements about students, you know, do well in school and all 455 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,280 that kind of stuff. And then what information we gave him and that was 456 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,440 Operation Onion Ring. Was the four hundred dollars the standard ticket or did you 457 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,000 pay extra in the hopes of getting their attention? Well, it was an 458 00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:42,920 eight person event, so everybody was going to be read so okay, all 459 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,280 right, So it was like a flat fee for the whole crew. I'm 460 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:51,039 trying to I'm trying to understand, like the monetary benefits. You don't blow 461 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:54,559 the whistle. Then you go back, you assemble the info, you organize 462 00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:59,079 your thoughts, you get it ready. What's a whistle blowing look like? 463 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,039 When you leave a session like that, what do you do? Well? 464 00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:06,599 We go back and we make sure that everything that we were recording recorded, 465 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:12,360 because we're recording everything, and we're taking photos, and we interact with the 466 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,800 people at the events, trying to talk to them about, you know, 467 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,119 their history with the psychic we play. We play the characters, you know, 468 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,960 we get in line at the bathroom and talk about how excited we are 469 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,119 to be there and who are you here to see? So we're fully in 470 00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:31,119 the role, and we do pay the top price because we want to get 471 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:37,039 into the VIP events and schmooz with people. So we're totally in character the 472 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:43,719 whole time. And when we leave the event or if it's a zoom event 473 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,400 or whatever, we're in character from the moment you know, you get out 474 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,000 of your car necessarily because you never know who's going to be watching You could 475 00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:54,280 get in an elevator with somebody and it would be somebody who's who's doing the 476 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,199 you know, it was going to follow you to the to the event, 477 00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:02,119 and you're talking about your trip to Hawaii and how your daughter just told you 478 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,079 she was pregnant, you know, and you're telling your friend. So, 479 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,559 I mean, hot reading could happen at any time. I always knew Susan 480 00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:15,000 Gerbick was a method actor. You know, she inhabits the character, inhabits 481 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:20,320 the character as all great thespians do. More with Susan Gerbick in just a 482 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,079 second, we're going to talk about the Psychic Friends Network. Anybody remember that 483 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:29,679 those nine hundred numbers. We got to talk about that. That and more 484 00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:39,760 coming up next. Your support on Patreon so very appreciated. You get the 485 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,760 show commercial free, and you get it two days early patreon dot com. 486 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:52,880 Slash Seth Andrews continuing with my special guest Skeptic and de Bunker Susan Gerbick, 487 00:37:53,400 --> 00:38:00,760 as we discussed the grief vampires and those who are exposing them. You've mentioned 488 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:07,840 Mark Edward's name several times. Mentalist magician to me, sounds like a Darren 489 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,679 Brown type. Can you tell me about the man. Oh well, Mark 490 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,719 Edward, he's just a wonderful guy. He's here in the other room. 491 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,840 Well, I mean other than he's a sweet fella. But the fire in 492 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,639 his belly comes from Since he's not here to defend himself, let's talk about 493 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,400 him as as kind of a co skeptic and co exposer of the Charlatan's, 494 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,960 you know, like Darren B. Penn Jalette is a great example. Right. 495 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,679 He knows how the sausage is made, he knows what's going on behind 496 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,760 the scenes. He knows that the tricks and he leads with hey, everybody, 497 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,679 these are tricks, and then he does the trick in the audience. 498 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,119 All they're all in on it. He never uses this stuff in a disingenuous 499 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:52,639 way. And Darren Brown is great at going out and doing mentalism and specific 500 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,079 things that look supernatural. And he will flat out tell you, you know, 501 00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:00,559 this is all like I'm messing with you. It sounds like Marked as 502 00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:04,719 much of the same stuff. Right, So he's a mentalist. He has 503 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,599 performed at the Magic Castle for years and years and years. He is his 504 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,519 expertise is in the seance room. He is an expert on the Houdini seance. 505 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:22,480 And he has been doing this and working as a psychic infiltrating the world 506 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,840 of psychics. And he wrote a book called Psychic Blues. It's an audio 507 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,760 book as well as a print book. It's called Psychic Blues, Confessions of 508 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,800 a Conflicted Medium. And so he knows a lot about the business of the 509 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,719 psychic world. You know, what's going on probably in the nineteen nineties, 510 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:45,440 nineteen eighties, what was happening in the spirit world businesses. So that's his 511 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,280 world of expertise in his book is mainly about that era. The nine hundred 512 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,559 lines, the dialis psychic, kind of like the Miss Cleo kind of stuff 513 00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:02,280 on the Friends Network. I think he's Actually they did infomercials that played it 514 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,760 like two in the morning. So here, no, I forgive me, 515 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,280 we are showing our age. I hate to keep interrupting, but I want 516 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,920 to make sure that people are tracking as we move forward before I forget the 517 00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:15,400 nine hundred phenomenon. For those who are too young to know what that is 518 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,880 is you used to dial from a landline, and I think it was maybe 519 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,800 you could do it from your cell as well, where you would be charged 520 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,280 like a dollar ninety nine a minute, and you would three ninety nine for 521 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,360 someone like Miss Cleo. And so they set the hook and they keep you 522 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,920 on the freaking phone for as long as they can. HI. This is 523 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,360 Lynda George and with a quick reminder about how simple it is to get your 524 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,840 own personal psychic reeting on the Psychic Friends Network. By calling the number on 525 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,079 your screen, you'll be connected to the home or office of a professional psychic 526 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,760 who cares about your future. All calls to the Psychic Friends Network are personal 527 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,280 and confidential. So whether you have a question about love, romance, success 528 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,159 or money, call the Psychic Friends Network today. All it takes is a 529 00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:07,800 telephone and an open mind per minute. But the nine hundred phenomenon, and 530 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,960 that was also the Satanic panic, right, So now you've got people worried 531 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,480 about the devil, or they're at least they're engaged in these sort of spiritism 532 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:19,920 type conversations. With the Satanic Panic part of Mark's story as well. No, 533 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,320 no, he never got involved in that. He was He stayed mainly 534 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:29,880 with the psychic world and dealt with that. So whenever I met up with 535 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,960 him in two thousand and nine, I was already interested in psychics, in 536 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:40,239 the psychic world, but we became a lot more involved in doing something about 537 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,159 it, trying to expose it and trying to show how it works and the 538 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,400 idea of um they call it, which you said with Darren Brown and Pindal, 539 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:58,119 let do where they say a disclaimer, I mean that doesn't necessarily work. 540 00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:00,079 You can say to you can say to you're blue in the face that 541 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:04,480 this is all a trick, and people will come up afterwards and they'll still 542 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,400 say, I know you said it was a trick, but I want to 543 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,880 know how you really did it. So, so a disclaimer of saying it 544 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:17,159 is, it's kind of nonsense. You have to have as far as disclaimers 545 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,280 go. Your venue is pretty much your disclaimer. And if you do psychic 546 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,159 readings or you do something that looks like you're playing an actor, you're playing 547 00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:31,320 a role. If you do seances and they do feel like you're real, 548 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:37,159 well then within thirty seconds they've got your business card or they go onto your 549 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:39,519 website. It's clear that you're a magician. Is somebody who could be hired 550 00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:45,800 as a as an actor, you know. So disclaimers are kind of wiggly 551 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:52,400 wobbly dependent. I see people get very upset because people mentalists don't disclaim because 552 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,440 but then an actor doesn't disclaim either. If somebody's playing Shakespeare, they don't 553 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,000 get up at the end of the movie and say, oh, by the 554 00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:02,119 way, I'm an actor just like you. But the human desire to believe, 555 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,039 you know, I'm we see it's so often and I totally understand. 556 00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:12,960 One of the reason that I'm that I don't go so hard on everyday Christians 557 00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:19,559 for being Christians because I were one, but I had a tremendous desire to 558 00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:22,360 hold onto it. You know, it was a cherished part of me, 559 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:27,800 my identity, and it's it served me. You can understand, even evolutionarily, 560 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,400 how religions in that way may have you know, you understand why people 561 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,079 can latch onto them. And I feel the same must be true for the 562 00:43:35,119 --> 00:43:38,079 psychic world, the spirit world. You know, we want to believe, 563 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:44,440 right, Do you feel like that's innate? Susan, Absolutely well. I 564 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,599 think that we all have something that we hold on too. We can't. 565 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,400 You know, people were busy with their lives, were raising our children, 566 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,679 were trying to make a living, We're keeping our house clean, we're you 567 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,079 know, there's so much that's going on in our lives. We don't have 568 00:43:55,159 --> 00:44:00,280 time to be also diving into some of the things in our life that we 569 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:06,000 thought were just natural, like ghosts or you know, going to the moon 570 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,719 or pyramid power. You just assume that your parents told you the right thing 571 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,280 and you just believe it. Religion, so on. It's part of your 572 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,960 culture in a lot of ways, it's your It's just part of you being 573 00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:22,079 you. And until you're finally challenged with some of these things, you know, 574 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,559 does Bigfoot exist? You know, maybe you always believed, of course 575 00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:30,119 bigfoot exists, but why would you even why would you even think that you 576 00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:34,559 should challenge it? If until somebody kind of comes head to head and you 577 00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:37,360 go, wait a minute, are you telling me that when we used to 578 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,079 go out into the woods that was a big foot out there that we could 579 00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:45,239 hear knocking on trees or whatever. So people need to believe in something. 580 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:52,000 I think it's it's it's philosophical. I don't really do philosophy that much, 581 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:57,760 as my friends always tell me more of a fact fact the kind of person 582 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,719 than this hypothetical world. But I really they do believe that we should probably 583 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,639 give and this is problem of one of the problems in the skeptic community. 584 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:14,079 We don't give enough, We don't sympathize enough with the people who are in 585 00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:19,480 these situations. It's a very vulnerable situation that you find yourself in at times 586 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,880 in your life. And when the medium enters during that moment of time where 587 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:29,840 you're grieving, you're confused about life, your you know somebody your significant partner 588 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,239 has left you, or your job, or you know your family's health or 589 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,119 whatever it is. When they enter at that moment, that's when you're vulnerable 590 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:42,320 and your your critical thinking skills may not be at the height that they should 591 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,239 be. I think we need to be a lot more sympathetic. These are 592 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,920 people who are being preyed on, and I use that to mean prey pr 593 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:54,119 e y, not pr a y. And so I think that if we 594 00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:59,960 were to look at ourselves as being vulnerable too, maybe not for the specific 595 00:46:00,199 --> 00:46:04,920 con but others like it, we can fall for this. It could be 596 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,679 a multilevel marketing scheme, you know, for one of us, totally completely 597 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:13,360 different from the psychic role. But again it's somebody manipulating somebody else. I 598 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,239 would like to see us turn up the empathy factor you know, I see 599 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,559 especially online. I mean, I think in real life it's a little softer, 600 00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:23,760 but online it's you know, they're all stupid. Who would be so 601 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,320 much of an idiot to fall for this? And we see this in cults, 602 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480 all right, this myth that only dumb people would ever believe what a 603 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:37,840 cult member says or what a cult claims. And then you see people who 604 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,320 extricate themselves and talk about what it was like, and they're highly often highly 605 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,280 intelligent, thoughtful people who are simply victims, you know, who are brainwashed. 606 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:51,480 And I'm a I'm a fan of your empathetic approach, you know, 607 00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:55,199 where we're so reductive online instead to see the whole person and see them as 608 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,559 victims first and start there. Let's finish here. How do we I mean, 609 00:47:00,679 --> 00:47:05,920 this is your subjective answer. I'm sure a lot of skeptics would answer 610 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,440 differently. How do I bullshit proof myself out there? Somebody wants to prey 611 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:15,519 on me. There's a grief vampire or a bank account vampire or whatever, 612 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,239 and they relate it to the spirit world. How do I tool myself up? 613 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:27,920 Well, you know, I don't think there's really a great way of 614 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,280 doing that because these things happen to people in vulnerable moments, And how do 615 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,719 you keep yourself from being vulnerable? I don't know, because you know, 616 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,840 right next to the cousin, the kissing cousin of psychics is like these romance 617 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,519 scams. So I mean, I think we're all going to be vulnerable to 618 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:51,400 something. Hang on, Susan, I'm sorry. What is a romance scam? 619 00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:55,159 Oh my gosh. You know these sweetheart scams where they, oh, 620 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,079 everybody out there is getting on social media, somebody approaching you saying that they 621 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,400 have a nice smile and I know you better, and then you know, 622 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,480 then you enter into conversation with them, and then they have some kind of 623 00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:12,920 crisis and then you have to send money to him again, like you're called. 624 00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:17,480 There's nobody joined a called. I mean they're joining some movement, right. 625 00:48:17,679 --> 00:48:22,480 There's a documentary about a guy like that. It's on Netflix. I 626 00:48:22,519 --> 00:48:23,880 want to say, it's like the Worst Person in though I'm trying to think 627 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:29,039 of what the title was. But it was this guy who would come up 628 00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:32,679 with this idea. He would claim to be rich and famous, and he 629 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,800 would go and find people who were looking for a man who was rich and 630 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,079 famous and then he would have some sort of a financial crisis or somebody was 631 00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:43,960 coming after him. He was a victim in some way. His bank accounts 632 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,559 were locked. I need thousands to get myself out of it. And these 633 00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:52,679 people got sucked in, they were groomed right well, absolutely, and only 634 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,719 in vulnerable So only some people are going to fall for this. I think 635 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,119 you're talking about the tinder swindler. Yeah, yeah, the tinder swindler. 636 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,679 Yes, thank people have talked about it, and I've seen catfishing catfish. 637 00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:07,760 There's a documentary about that too, Oh of course. And it's only going 638 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:13,639 to happen in vulnerable times. I think the best way people can keep themselves 639 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:22,000 from falling for these kinds of frauds or is to keep good people around you, 640 00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:27,000 people who you can talk to, who are you know, legitimately your 641 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,559 friends, who are going to tell you to your face that this looks dangerous. 642 00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:35,559 You're starting to go down a path that looks like a pyramid scam, 643 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,639 or somebody is trying to manipulate your emotions. They're trying to isolate you from 644 00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:46,039 your friendships and your past and your family. I think that keeping good people 645 00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:52,599 around you, having a great, strong social network around you, and if 646 00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,280 you don't have this already, you should try to find it. And I 647 00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:00,599 think that that's probably the best way of keeping yourself from being vulner vulnerable and 648 00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:06,320 falling for these horrible cons that can just devastate to and ring you financially. 649 00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:09,519 Rather not to distill it down to a bumper sticker, but I have to 650 00:50:09,519 --> 00:50:15,400 think knowledge being power. If I knew the tactic of a faith healer, 651 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,400 you know, the lengthening the leg miracle, or you know the crutch is 652 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,599 being thrown and all those types of things, if I knew how all of 653 00:50:23,639 --> 00:50:28,920 that was done before I was presented with an example of it, I would 654 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,960 be looking for the cracks in that facade, right, I'd be looking, 655 00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:37,800 and I would think, maybe knowledge is power in the scenario of the psychics 656 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,880 and the mediums. If you know to look for it, maybe then you 657 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,519 might be looking for it. That's fair and which you think absolutely. We 658 00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,639 call this pre bunking, or I used to call it an oculation. Innoculation 659 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,480 theory is that if you give people the concepts of how people are conned, 660 00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,519 how things are not what they appear, then you're giving people some sort of 661 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:06,960 skills so that like a toolbox, so that whenever they approach something like this, 662 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,760 it may not be the exact same scenario, but they'll be able to 663 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,119 feel like, you know, this does seem a lot like a romance scam, 664 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:21,679 but it's not romance. It seems to be connected to something else. 665 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,920 You know, maybe you know some other way. So they Because there's so 666 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,880 many ways of conning people out there, we can't explain every single way. 667 00:51:30,199 --> 00:51:34,079 You know, if it's this, then it's that we can't do that. 668 00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:37,679 But I do think that we need to innoculate people with great information, so 669 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,079 how they could find information, How do you evaluate a source? How do 670 00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:45,679 you trust that? But again, if you surround yourself with people who will 671 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:52,639 help you through this time, then their expertise also will help, because learning 672 00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:57,480 about cold reading, learning about hot reading, learning how a video is edited 673 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,639 to make it look a certain way, how it's manipulating your emotions as you 674 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:07,559 go through, how the music plays on these TV shows at a certain moment, 675 00:52:07,679 --> 00:52:10,360 or they cut right there on a commercial at a time that you will 676 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:15,440 hook you. If we know all that information, that's great. But also 677 00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:20,599 sometimes people think they're too smart to be fooled. We see this all the 678 00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:23,639 time, James Randy was writing a book called The Magician in a Laboratory about 679 00:52:23,679 --> 00:52:29,480 how scientists are some of the easiest people to fool because they think in some 680 00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:34,159 cases, they think they're so smart that they're not looking at it in the 681 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:39,840 way that somebody who's got street smarts would probably look at it. So having 682 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,599 too much knowledge and thinking that you're just too smart to fall for it is 683 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,039 probably a bad way of going about your life. I still think that the 684 00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:52,360 best way of doing this is, of course, be curious and to learn 685 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,960 all about the world around you, and as we all should for all kinds 686 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:02,039 of reasons. But having a really strong friend family network out there around you 687 00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:07,599 that is out there for the best interests of you. Also that means you 688 00:53:07,679 --> 00:53:09,519 have to have the best interests of that family member. So we all have 689 00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:14,639 to have each other's back. I've got your back, You've got my back. 690 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,159 All right, Well, we got each other's back. That's good news. 691 00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:22,199 So let's finish with what is the about time project? And how can 692 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,280 people connect with your work? Right? So you can find more information about 693 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,079 all the things that I'm involved in at about time project dot org. And 694 00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:36,559 that's about Time. But what does it mean, what's the project? The 695 00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:40,000 project is it's about time we started taking the stuff seriously and started looking into 696 00:53:40,039 --> 00:53:45,159 it and bonding together and seeing each other in person and hanging out and all 697 00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:50,599 those kinds of things, just getting to know and grow our community. Adamant 698 00:53:50,639 --> 00:53:54,159 about let's growing our community. But the about time project. We have our 699 00:53:54,159 --> 00:54:01,159 Wikipedia group that is rewriting Wikipedia pages concerning science, scientific skepticism, and claims 700 00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:07,320 of the paranormal. We've written over We've written two thousand, one hundred and 701 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:12,880 thirty eight pages. Forty five percent of that is in languages outside of English, 702 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,559 and those two thousand, one hundred and thirty eight pages have been read 703 00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:21,159 one hundred and thirty two million times. They've been accessed. Are you correcting 704 00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:25,000 bad information? What's the work you're doing. Yes, we're creating bad information. 705 00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:31,000 We're creating great information. We're translating pages into other languages. You're correcting 706 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,760 bad information? Right, I think creating came out, but I want to 707 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,280 make sure that the pedantic types don't come into the comment section and say they're 708 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:43,960 creating bad You're correcting bad information, all right? Yes, I have a 709 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,440 team of about one hundred people. We're on Facebook, so you have to 710 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:52,960 be on Facebook. The training processes at least four months and it is an 711 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:59,440 extensive fun project. That's the Girls Skepticism on Wikipedia project. I also dabble 712 00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:05,239 in a lot of other things. Facilitated communication is in my wheelhouse and with 713 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:13,440 a very really powerful group of people who are bounded together to try to combat 714 00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:15,920 facilitated communication. Do you want to explain what that is? Go ahead? 715 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:22,199 Facilitated communication. It's a communication device, they say. I have air quotes 716 00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:30,079 around the word communication, mainly affecting people who have difficulty communicating, who've never 717 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:37,280 been able to communicate. I'm talking about people are severely how do I say 718 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,320 this, they're severely unable to communicate since birth, you know, since they 719 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,360 can't read and write, they've not been able to be educated. And what 720 00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:50,280 happens is people there is a small group of people in the world who think 721 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,719 they're helping them communicate by holding their hand and placing it over the top of 722 00:55:53,760 --> 00:56:00,320 a keyboard, or they hold a letterboard in the air and the person points 723 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:05,159 to the letters, so they're not communicating. The facilitators holding their hand and 724 00:56:05,559 --> 00:56:09,360 moving it towards the correct letters. It's it's it's incredible. You can find 725 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:15,559 it on Wikipedia, and there's also a website called Facilitated Communication dot org. 726 00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:22,199 It's it's taking the voice away from this person who cannot communicate in writing or 727 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,719 speak like that's a whole other show. Oh my gosh, so you and 728 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,480 I could, I'm not I've got I'm gonna stop because otherwise it will be 729 00:56:30,519 --> 00:56:37,239 here till next Tuesday. What's the website about time project dot org? Susan 730 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:42,519 Gerbick, you are a damn superhero. I just I'm such a fan of 731 00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:45,440 you and your work. I'm thankful for your friendship, and I'm sure we'll 732 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,480 bump into each other on the road out there, but I'm gonna send everybody 733 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,400 to you and your work, and I guess we leave everybody, including ourselves, 734 00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:00,639 you know, and the encouragement to stay skeptical. We may not be 735 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,800 as invulnerable as we think. Susan, thanks again for talking to me. 736 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,000 Thank you so much, Sath. Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter 737 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:14,760 for a complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and t shirts 738 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:20,119 featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist pages and resources, and details 739 00:57:20,119 --> 00:57:24,079 on upcoming free thought events and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinking 740 00:57:24,119 --> 00:57:27,480 Atheist dot com