WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:19.079 Episode number three sixty three. Cinema is a mirror by which we often 4 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:25.760 see ourselves, Alejandro Rutu broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when 5 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.519 we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 6 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.399 showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make 7 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:40.799 your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome 8 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:44.840 to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex 9 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:50.520 Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. 10 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:56.880 Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of 11 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.640 project you are and the goals of the project you are, so we actually 12 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:04.079 break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and studio 13 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.319 film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading 14 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.439 tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars 15 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.200 and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers 16 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.680 have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, 17 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.959 Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. 18 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:30.359 So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, 19 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:36.200 head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Well, guys, today we are 20 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:41.200 going to be in the cutting room. We're going to be talking to editor 21 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:46.519 and author Gail Chandler, who is the writer of the book Editing for Directors. 22 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.439 Now, many of you know that I've been in the post production business 23 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.719 for most of my career past twenty five years, and I have a lot 24 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.040 of war stories about editing and working with clients and so on. But this 25 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.560 conversation is not only a little bit about app but mostly about how directors should 26 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:07.599 be working with editors, how to choose a good editor, how to make 27 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:12.560 sure that you guys are gelling together, and all things that you need to 28 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:16.680 understand about post production and what the editor's responsibilities are and so on. So 29 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:21.919 it was really a wonderful episode. So without any further ado, please enjoy 30 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:27.360 my conversation with Gail Chandler. I like to welcome the show, Gail Chandler. 31 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.719 How are you doing, Gail good good to be here. Thank you 32 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:32.840 so much for being on the show. Like we were talking about earlier, 33 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:38.280 anytime I get an editor on, it's like a couple of salty dogs, 34 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:43.520 like sailors, talking about the old and battle days the editor room, which 35 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.080 are always very very entertaining. I'm sure you have some amazing stories of what 36 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:51.879 happens when the door closes in the edit room, which is always and we'll 37 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:53.639 talk a little bit about that, about the conversations that happened in there and 38 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.800 with the producers and directors. But we really wanted to focus this episode on 39 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:04.199 your new book, Editing for Directors, and focusing on how directors you'll be 40 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.240 working with editors. And it's something I've been trying to teach every time every 41 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.319 time an editor walked into my suite. I tried to teach stuff how to 42 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:14.639 work with me. But before we jump in, how did you get into 43 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:23.520 the business. I was a projectionist in northern California and I got into the 44 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:29.280 IA and when they wouldn't let women in, and then I it was a 45 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:35.280 mixed local which meant you could work on movies. And since it was northern 46 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.080 California, a lot of LA films came up here. And so I started 47 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:46.199 doing location work as a grip and lighting. And again I was the only 48 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:51.080 female, and I was discouraged, but I did it. And I was 49 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:59.240 also then at Snowma State University taking communications courses, and I took a film 50 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.759 history course, thinking that was sort of frivolous, but the teacher was fabulous. 51 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:09.560 He ended up founding Tribeca and being the director there of the festival, 52 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:15.680 and and I just really got it. Sort of all came together. I 53 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:20.560 had been a box office cashier then projectionist, and so in seventy nine I 54 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:28.360 left for LA and and somebody said, you you probably editing would be the 55 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:32.680 right fit for you, and it was, yeah, editing is. I 56 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.920 fell into editing by not wanting to be a PA. I said, Hey, 57 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.680 that sucks. I don't want to wake up at three o'clock in the 58 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.680 morning. I'd rather sit in an air condition room all day and maybe get 59 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:47.480 carpal tunnel. Well, it was funny because one of the location guys said, 60 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.120 why do you want to go to LA and sit in a dark room? 61 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:54.199 Behind a movie all all day and it was a good it was it 62 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:58.720 was a big question, but it was obviously more than that. And did 63 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:03.560 you start You actually started setting on film, yes, sixteen and thirty five, 64 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:10.800 and then I was working at Alan Landsberg Productions as an assistant editor on 65 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.279 sixteen and what I had what we call the sinky pool. We just would 66 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.959 synk the dailies and then eventually you could be as assisting an editor and they 67 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:30.680 went video three quarter inch and we were onlining on two inch and at a 68 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.959 rate these technical terms, you know, there were two processes. Then it's 69 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.800 very interesting that online has gone away, and but you know what eventually, 70 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:45.360 of course happened was that it was the film people were doing features, the 71 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:48.240 video people were doing TV, which was what I was in, and they 72 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:56.959 all came together with the digital evolution in the early nineties and everybody finally was 73 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.360 on. We were on the same systems, and systems could talk to film 74 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:05.160 and video and that's what's evolved from there. But basically it was a huge 75 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:11.279 revolution, and I was lucky that I got in fairly early. When I 76 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.360 got in, I was I was taught the opposite way. I was taught, 77 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:17.800 not only ar editing first, then online editing, then film. So 78 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.959 by the time I got to film on a flatbed, I was like, 79 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.279 you mean to tell me? You want me to take a razor blade, 80 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:29.360 cut this and tape it? What are we the flintstones? What is this 81 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.279 barbaria? It was completely beyond me because they had already taught me a computer, 82 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.920 which was so much quicker and online even was online, you know, 83 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:42.000 working on a CMX thirty six hundred or a grass Valley or a Sony, 84 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.720 a Sony editing system, all those were so much faster. But I did 85 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:51.399 get to cut the what was it that episode of gun Smoke? Is it 86 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:56.199 is the episode of Gunsmoke that they everyone everyone cut on that? Right? 87 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:59.680 That's that's the one thing everyone cut on. Yeah, And you know, 88 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.399 I know where my book is about is for directors, and there may be 89 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:11.480 some directors that all of this online and splicers and all of that, it's 90 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:16.279 like, it's before your time and why should you be interested? And really, 91 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:23.759 what I want to say the takeaway to people that are young that are 92 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:29.759 directing and editing from all this is that is the word change. Because I 93 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:39.240 personally trained hundreds of professionals and students on digital editing equipment. And the students, 94 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.120 you know, they kind of came of age with the computer, but 95 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:48.120 the editors and assistants did not. And change is going to happen in your 96 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:55.839 career. And it was very interesting witnessing how people reacted to it. Some 97 00:07:55.879 --> 00:08:01.160 people were filmed forever and I can't cut unless I can feel it in my 98 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.000 hands. And that may sound crazy to somebody who's never been on film, 99 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.680 doesn't want to be on it, will never have to be on it. 100 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.480 But the point here is changed. You really edit and you direct. Well, 101 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.279 let's just stop editing. You edit with your heart and your head, 102 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.600 and whatever medium comes down the pipe next, you're going to jump to that. 103 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.319 Whatever new technology with cameras and all that. As Lucas said, you 104 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:35.120 know, art is fifty percent technology. And you know, oil painting, 105 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:41.000 change things, watercolors, you know, and the technical evolutions that Alex and 106 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:46.480 I have been talking about, you know, our stuff that we happen to 107 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.639 live through, you will be living through different ones. And just know you're 108 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.159 going to have to learn new software and new words and new terms. Well 109 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:58.240 yeah, I mean, right now we're talking about things like you know, 110 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.519 you know people editing on is Final Cut and Da Vinci and Premiere and those 111 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.399 kind of editing softwares, and we're still calling it, you know, we're 112 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:11.200 still looking at it from a screen perspective, meaning that it's a two dimensional 113 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:16.960 scene screen. In our lifetime, you know, there's very good possibility that 114 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:22.399 there could be an editing of a Holodeck scene, you know, and it's 115 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.159 all holograms and there's going to be editing systems to edit. That's it. 116 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:31.480 There's gonna be things that are beyond our comprehension. Now that this generation who's 117 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.919 young now like, oh, we came up with the Abbot or we came 118 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:35.360 up with Final Cut, and now they're like, well, now have you 119 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.279 used a Holodeck as system? That's insane. It's gonna change, it's gonna 120 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:45.960 change. Yeah, And the tools are something you want to learn and see 121 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.039 what they can do and see what you can do with them. But the 122 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.519 principles of how you tell a story and reached an audience or always there and 123 00:09:54.799 --> 00:10:03.759 they're evolving too. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and 124 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:09.919 now back to the show. No without question, So, in your opinion, 125 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.000 what is the most misunderstood part of the editing process. From a director 126 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:22.600 and producer's point of view, I think people think editors just make cuts. 127 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:28.799 It's kind of like thinking a dressmaker just makes stitches. You know, you're 128 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.679 making a whole costume or you know, in the terms of editing, you 129 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.679 really are the person that is telling the story in the end, whatever you 130 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:43.440 conceived in the script or the documentary outline, or whatever you shot on location 131 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:50.840 for the documentary or the scripted piece. Even you know I work primary in 132 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:56.559 sitcoms, stuff would still change in the editing room. And that's where you 133 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:01.600 have to make performances work and locates work. And as you know, you're 134 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.480 a colorist, alex or you have been, and you have to balance the 135 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:13.000 color and make the looks work. And I think the tools today, you 136 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:18.279 know, allow you to do so much more. But anyway, to get 137 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.320 back to the question, I think the conception, I think the real takeaway 138 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.200 is that the editor is a storyteller as much as the person who wrote the 139 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:33.559 story and scripted it. Yeah, And it's funny because actors really should give 140 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.600 bonuses to the editor at the end of a film because it's them who cut 141 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.960 together their performance. I've been in the edit room where I've had to cut 142 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.840 a performance and you're cutting the best of the best, and like literally shaping 143 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.320 someone's performance and saving them. Sometimes, like when their performance is not that 144 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.480 good, maybe you cut away to something else and then come back or cut 145 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.639 to reaction, all in the in the service of the movie, but also 146 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.080 in the service of the performance. And without the editor, you know, 147 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.240 it's just a bunch of takes, and some takes a good some takes aren't. 148 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.919 So you got a bad editor involved, they could choose the wrong takes 149 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.200 and make that performance horrible. And I'm sure you know looking through all that 150 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.519 old looking through footage, there's a lot of stuff that you have to kind 151 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.720 of cut through to just find that that one second, that one frame that 152 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:30.759 makes that scene work. Yeah, and that's what why my book. The 153 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.799 publisher, actually Michael Wazey, came up with the idea to really help directors 154 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.799 because they may be you know, you've gone through as a director, You've 155 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:48.240 gone through maybe months, maybe years of pre production and planning, and then 156 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.600 you've finally gotten to film your baby, and now you're trusting it to this 157 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.720 person who you may know or may not know, and are they going to 158 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.600 get your film the way you want it and and make it work in areas 159 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:09.320 that you may have know are problematic. So as a director, you know 160 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.200 that where you're finishing is editing, and so you really want to think about 161 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:22.000 that from the beginning, and and and you know, I talk a lot 162 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.720 about how you know. I talk about how you pick an editor, how 163 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.600 you you know, how you want to develop trust and how do you how 164 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:31.919 do you pick an editor? How does it what's a what's some good points 165 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.399 for a director to pick an editor to collaborate with? I mean I think, 166 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:41.600 I think you talk to people you know. You obviously interview people you 167 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.559 you know, look at their resume, you look at what they've done, 168 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.360 and I mean, it's it's kind of it's a short term marriage or a 169 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.840 good affair. I always like to say, you know, you want somebody 170 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:58.240 that will get your intent as a director. You want to look for that 171 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:05.639 in a person, But you also want somebody that hopefully you will develop a 172 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.720 relationship where you can hear their feedback and hear from them this isn't working or 173 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.000 I I mean, directors love to be problem solvers. They love to fix 174 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.759 performances. I mean, I've been kissed in editing rooms because you know, 175 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.639 my directors, because they were like, oh my god, I was so 176 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.480 worried about the scene and we hadn't talked about it, and you know, 177 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.559 and you love it when you can make something work, and you you know. 178 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:37.919 The other thing I wanted to say was the editor is really receiving your 179 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:43.240 raw material no matter it's really it's a blueprint until it gets turned into something 180 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.440 in the editing room, and it's what the audience is going to see. 181 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.519 They don't care if you spent ten days working in the snow, you know, 182 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.519 sludging through tunnels to get a shot, if the shot doesn't advance the 183 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.120 story or say what your film is about out or do something. It's not 184 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:07.360 just a gorgeous shot or you know, or a hard earned shot. The 185 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.240 editor is very objective. The editor is you know, detached from the set 186 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:16.240 most of the time. And a lot of editors like to go to the 187 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.919 set. A lot of us don't because we want to keep that objective eye. 188 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.480 And so I would say all of that is what you're looking for in 189 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:31.720 an editor. Now, how does a director shoot for the cut? How 190 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:37.799 an editor? I mean, yeah, how a director would shoot for the 191 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:45.840 cut is to first of all, well not first of all, A major 192 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.919 thing would be to think about sound. People don't think about sound, and 193 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.759 you know, poor sound can harm you more than poor picture. Really, 194 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.600 people can't understand stuff. You know, go and listen to locate. Think 195 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.919 about how you want your movie to sound. The other things are, you 196 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.000 know, work on screen direction, don't cross the line, or if you 197 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:15.840 do cross the line, understand what it is and why you're crossing it. 198 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:22.519 Maintain eyelines. If Alex is looking down while I'm talking or looking at the 199 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.519 ceiling, the audience might think he's bored with me, or doesn't like me, 200 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:33.399 or is disinterested. If we're looking right eye to eye, you know 201 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:40.120 we're connecting. We may be fighting, we may be whatever. But you 202 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.240 know, eyelines are very important to maintain. When you're doing drama. That's 203 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.279 another thing that you need to think about. Yeah, I mean, and 204 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.519 also just those I think the biggest piece of advice I always get young directors 205 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:59.840 is cutaways. To shoot cutaways, for God's sake, shoot cutaways. Just 206 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:07.000 shoot Like Robert Rodriguez with El Mariachi. He just shoot the dog and anytime 207 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:08.440 he got in trouble he just cut to the dog, or he cut to 208 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.680 a turtle, or he cut to a vase or you know, obviously if 209 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:17.200 you can shoot cutaways, that means something even better. But just safety, 210 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.960 shoot cut away a hand, hands moving, you know, reactions, hair 211 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.960 flipping. Those little things are what we love as editors because then you could 212 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:32.039 really sculpt a scene because if you've got to stay with that performance and you 213 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.279 have nowhere to go, I'm sure you've run into that wall. You're just 214 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.880 like, oh god, I need just something to cut away to thank you 215 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:44.960 for bringing that up. That's another major thing that you want to think about 216 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.400 as a director when you're shooting, you know, coverage. If you have 217 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.079 a scene that's not working and you don't have anywhere to go, then you're 218 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:57.240 stuck with the boring bit in a scene unless you can cut away to something. 219 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.839 And you know, cutaways can be really interesting. You know, a 220 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.240 treasure map. People want to see what everybody's talking about, a close of 221 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.480 that, you know, and I always say a close up of Meryl Streep's 222 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:17.759 pace is worth a thousand lines of dialogue, you know. You know, 223 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:22.920 film is a very you know, faces say a lot, but get those 224 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.839 close ups, get get those over the shoulders, get different angles and shots 225 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.920 because it gives you more options in the cutting room. Yeah. I was 226 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.480 in the cutting room once and we had the scene that the was just long 227 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.240 and it was like an emotional breakdown, but it was just so long, 228 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.839 and it was we like this cut like that. We wanted to cut two 229 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.359 takes together and we couldn't be She was like, oh my god, we 230 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.759 didn't shoot any cutaways. And the camera was in the room of the edit 231 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.799 room and the dog of the director was in the room. So we just 232 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.400 put the dog on the couch. I threw a light up, I lit 233 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.279 it. She shot it with the camera that was the same camera Shet the 234 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.599 movie with, and then we literally just took the card out inserted it, 235 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.519 like Okay, we're good now. Can you imagine that in the early days. 236 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:17.200 Well, I was on a show where a little boy goes to a 237 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:22.440 construction site with his friends and they're playing around and they somehow get one of 238 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.640 the big machines going and it's going downhill, and you know, it's very 239 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.680 exciting and upsetting and all that, and of course he lives and he's fine, 240 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.440 but what and they shot like fifteen angles and this was a half hour 241 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.960 sitcom, so this was a big scene and it was very unusual in a 242 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:44.440 single camera, so it was unusual to get that many angles. And what 243 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.960 they didn't shoot was the boy. We'll be right back after a word from 244 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:57.640 our sponsor and now back to the show. They didn't shoot a close up 245 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:04.039 of the boy. And the editor just said, we need this, We 246 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.880 got to have this. And I was very lucky to work with a very 247 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.680 famous editor who actually couldn't understand the system, so I ended up having to 248 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.920 operate it for him and anticipate where he was going to go in this scene 249 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:21.680 in many other scenes, so it really advanced my editing. But at any 250 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:23.960 rate, the director said, I can't do that. We're off the location. 251 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:30.240 We're back, you know, on the studio, and he's the director. 252 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.720 The editor said, put him in a chair. So they literally took 253 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.319 you know, a set chair and put the kid in and raised them up 254 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.599 and shot him and it made all the difference in the scene. Yeah, 255 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:48.519 it's it's it's it's pretty remarkable what you can get away with in today's work. 256 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.759 It is. Yeah, I mean, you know, queueing your your 257 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:56.400 characters and people's reactions is queueing your audience on how to feel it's really important. 258 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.359 Yeah, I mean, I mean something as simple as a glass being 259 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.519 put on the on the table. Things like that, those little things that 260 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.839 when you're in the heat of battle it's hard to think about. And that's 261 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.400 something as directors, we're in the middle of you know, a thousand things 262 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.599 are coming at us and we're like, okay, everyone stop, I need 263 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.920 a shot of the glass, and like, that's a hard like you got 264 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.480 to be as a director. You gotta be comfortable with yourself. Like we're 265 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.519 getting into ot or we're about to hit lunch. I'm like, guys, 266 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.279 I need the glass hitting the table and at the moment people are like this 267 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:36.240 this prima Donna like, but that one little move saves the scene. Well, 268 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:41.400 and you know that the b roll is just as important. David Watkins, 269 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:47.279 famous and photographer who got the Academy Award for Out of Africa in his 270 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.920 excep and I put this in the book actually because it always stuck with me 271 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.559 and it never fit in any other book that I wrote, but this one 272 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:59.599 it did because he was so complimented on Out of Africa because the shots of 273 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.000 the animals and you know, they did stuff literally from helicopters. They didn't 274 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:10.200 have drones and those and you know, they're gorgeous, and so people would 275 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.000 come up to and say, oh, you know, he did such a 276 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.160 great job, and he said that was second unit, that was b role. 277 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.799 And then they'd come oh, you know he shot the principles. He 278 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:25.839 shot Redford and Street, you know, and so you think about of Africa 279 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.839 without those shots, and it's a different movie. No. Absolutely, I 280 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:37.319 love that example that Hitchcock I saw. I saw a documentary with him once 281 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.279 about the editing process, and he's like, this is how powerful editing is. 282 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.519 He goes, let's say I shoot a shot of me. Then the 283 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.960 next shot we shoot the show is a baby plane, and then you see 284 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:55.160 cut back to me smiling. Now that motion that you the audience gets. 285 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.680 He's like, oh, isn't that cute. Now all you do is replace 286 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.000 the center shot instead of a baby a beautiful woman in a bikini, a 287 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.200 young woman in a bikini, same thing all of a sudden, Oh what 288 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:10.599 a creep. That is the power of editing. And that's something directors really 289 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.160 need to understand, if you really mean you should. Absolutely, if you're 290 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.759 a director, study Hitchcock. I mean, it's every one of his films. 291 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.920 There's a masterclass in editing. But it's so so powerful. A cut, 292 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:27.200 a shot, an angle can change the entire perception of the scene. 293 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.920 Do you agree? Yes? And have you heard of the coolest shop effect? 294 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.200 The which one? Oh? Yes? Yes? From uh oh god, 295 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:42.119 uh yeah, from the Russian from the one that's the famous picture of 296 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.440 the guy going crazy holding the frame. Yes, and the Hitchcock. Wo 297 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.279 didn't come up with it, it was him, actually, if I'm not 298 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.319 mistaken. Yeah. And you know, one of the things that I did 299 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.359 in this book is it's very practical, you know, from pre planning and 300 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.400 direct and editing. Is editors are being brought and more with pre planning, 301 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:11.279 especially pre pro with previs with animation editors. I really cover what a director 302 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.319 needs to think about from you know, pre production through archiving. You want 303 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:19.720 your film to last, you want to think about archiving and more. You 304 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.680 know, how can you reach future audiences, how can you create revenue streams? 305 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.480 Even though you know you're just lucky if you're doing a doc low budget 306 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.799 or anything low budget, you know, you're just thinking about getting the movie 307 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:36.400 made, not alone archiving, but I go through that, but at any 308 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:40.279 rate, one of the chapters that is one of the chapters I love the 309 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:47.680 most and the longest, is the others I broke up a little more is 310 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:53.119 on the history of editing, and I put that in there because I want 311 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:59.039 people to understand that editing really is the language of film, and editing you 312 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:03.160 really like no other art. You see how people think and how they feel 313 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.359 from second to second in a flash cut of three frames or a long dissolve. 314 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.759 You play with time. You play with people's emotions the way no other 315 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.960 medium, I think, really does. And so part of that chapter I 316 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:23.839 talk about the Russians and they had their revolution and so all the filmmakers were 317 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:29.160 tasked with, you know, teaching the proletariat what was what the rules of 318 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:34.920 communism of so uh, they started the first film school in Moscow, which 319 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:40.039 still goes on to today. And they did they had short ends, they 320 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.880 didn't have films, so they they didn't couldn't do long masters like Americans could. 321 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:47.960 And they chopped up a citizen Kane, they chopped up a lot of 322 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.279 They looked at a lot and that says kin hadn't been shot in but they 323 00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:56.359 looked at a lot of American films, and one of them, cool Shop, 324 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.279 I forget his first name. They had some left over footage from a 325 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:06.160 white Russian actor who was very well known, and he had left the country 326 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.519 with the revolution, and so they took a frame, a few some frames 327 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:18.480 of him and intercut them with a young girl picking a flower, and people 328 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:26.119 thought he was smiling. Then they cut to him again, and they well, 329 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:27.799 first they cut to the girl, then they cut to him. People 330 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.440 thought he was smiling. Then they cut to a woman in a coffin, 331 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.720 a young child in a coffin. They then they cut to him. People 332 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.920 thought he was sad. Then they cut to a woman on a shed's lounge, 333 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:44.759 and they thought he was amorous. And it was the same shot each 334 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:49.759 time, and so the whole this relates to what you said about Hitchcock and 335 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.839 the smiling and the creepiness it. You know, is that in the Russian 336 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:59.960 theory, but you can use whatever word you want. They juxtapose shots shot 337 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.400 affect each other, and people take meaning out of shots that were shot at 338 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:10.160 different times, different days, different places, et cetera. Humans just our 339 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.880 brains want to do that. And it's so funny because sometimes I'll see a 340 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:18.240 movie, because there's so much content being created today, I'll watch a movie 341 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.559 that's you know, off off brand. Let's say it's not a big movie, 342 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.160 you know, it's an independent or or something along those lines, and 343 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.680 or it has a star in it. And and I watched it and then 344 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:33.319 the director and the editor make a mistake and you see like, oh, 345 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:34.440 they cut to that, and like that's not the meaning, Like wait a 346 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:40.200 minute, that feels weird. That person shouldn't be feeling the way they are, 347 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.400 and it's and it's obviously a mistake. It's not like, you know, 348 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:47.279 the woman shouldn't be feeling, you know, jilted, she should be 349 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.799 feeling something else. And it was a look, it's a it was an 350 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.279 energy and because it was the way it was juxtapposed to what they were cutting, 351 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:56.640 it just feel it just you just get taken out of the of the 352 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:02.319 of the piece. It's pretty it's pretty powerful stuff, and Hitchcock again talked 353 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:07.400 about it so much where he wanted to like literally play the audience's emotions on 354 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:12.279 a piano eventually to get to that point, which he pretty closely did with 355 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:18.400 his editing. But it's pretty powerful and to go down to the Hitchcock rabbit 356 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.359 hole just for a minute. Arguably one of the greatest, most talked about 357 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.000 seeing edited scenes ever is the shower scene. They did a whole documentary just 358 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:30.680 on the shower scene. As an editor looking at that, can you kind 359 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:34.920 of talk a little bit about that so directors listening can understand that they've never 360 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:38.319 seen it, or they've heard about it, maybe they watched it. What 361 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.960 value it would be to go back to what he did and what the editor 362 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.039 did in that that? What is it? I forgot how many frames it 363 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:49.920 is, but how many seconds to forty eight seconds or fifty six seconds or 364 00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:56.640 whatever it is? How powerful that was? Yeah, I've read a lot 365 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.559 of Hitchcock and I admire him in a lot of ways too. And I 366 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:06.720 highly recommend Truffaux on Yes, what a great book and movie. You know 367 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.079 as a director. You know, Trufau, the French loved Hitchcock and Truffau 368 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.640 interviewed him and they went through every movie and Trufau really ask him a lot 369 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:23.519 of questions and it's really you know, and I do quote from Hitchcock in 370 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.720 the book you know about the birds and and and and part of how he 371 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:34.960 conceived the birds musically and and their thoughts and now they're this, and now 372 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.640 they're that. But the shower scene, I I honestly forget now how many 373 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.839 cuts and how short it is, but you know, it was flash cuts 374 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:51.880 and you saw a woman being chopped up and attacked, and it was you 375 00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:55.440 know, it's stuck with everybody who's ever seen it, and it still works. 376 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:03.039 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back 377 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:10.400 to the show. And the music's the music, the music and the air 378 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:17.400 cutting. And he always got Bernard Herman to compose his film. And I 379 00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.920 mean Vertigo. I talk about Vitigo in the book. Actually I didn't get 380 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:26.000 into Psycho so much, but in Vertigo he has very he has like Carotsel 381 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:30.119 music. Everything's twirling. In the beginning of Vertico, I put in the 382 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:36.440 shots Dermandale is coming out of people's eyes, so everything is very circular and 383 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.359 it supports his, you know, the idea of Vertigo. But yeah, 384 00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:47.519 the shower scene is we're seeing you know, Buster Keaton's train chase in Little 385 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:52.440 General is incredible, and you know, but there are a lot of fantastic 386 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:59.279 I mean, I mean the Fugitive, I remember with Harrison Ford, you 387 00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.440 know, the editors give that we screened that that they had a screening in 388 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.400 the eighties, and and people just this was an Indian industry audience, and 389 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.559 people just stood up and clamp right. If you can break through the industry 390 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:14.400 audience, you know you've got something. Yo. I remember watching The Fugitive 391 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.079 as well. It's it's remarkable. Then you go by the way, just 392 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.319 to finish off on Hitchcock, that shower scene. What's so brilliant about it 393 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:26.960 for me is you never see the knife go in. You never see the 394 00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:33.000 knife touch her skin ever, because it wasn't allowed at the time, I 395 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.440 think, or something Hitchcock always got around the sensors. But that's the brilliant 396 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.440 part. But your mind connected at all because of the cuts and the music 397 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.920 that you were like this woman is you just said this woman was getting chopped 398 00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:48.960 up. She really was. There's no there's no there's no graphic hit of 399 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.559 it. Yes, there's blood, there's flashes, there's this and that, 400 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:57.640 the eyes and the motion, but there's no actual you know, skin knife 401 00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:01.839 penetration in this, which is that's the brilliant part about one of the many 402 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:07.480 brilliant parts about that sequence. But the one thing you were saying about action 403 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.799 sequences is now, I think sometimes you go the other direction. Like there 404 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.519 was a scene and I think Taken two or Taken three one of those that 405 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:23.400 had Liam Neesen running and Liam is not twenty one and he's running, he's 406 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.720 jumping fence. They counted how many cuts just from him jumping a fence was 407 00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:35.599 like fifteen cuts, And you're like, you're basically cutting making you're forcing the 408 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.599 action by the the edit is kind of keeping pace because to actually see a 409 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:45.319 sixty year old man jump a fence not that exciting, but with the music 410 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.440 and the cut, but it was just so much. It's just like you 411 00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.839 don't let anything sit. And sometimes the most powerful cut is not cutting. 412 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:59.920 Is that fair? Yes? And sometimes the most powerful cut is silent, 413 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:04.440 Like after you've had a big action scene, it's like music, you can 414 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:07.480 have staccato and go cut, cut, cut, and then you know that's 415 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:13.079 just the obvious war is a very obvious example. After the battle, and 416 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.319 then you just need you know, the dead people on the battlefield or people 417 00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:24.599 collecting themselves, the audience to collect themselves. It's editing is very rhythmic and 418 00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:29.559 I think you know you and your editor. As a director, you want 419 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:34.519 to pick somebody that's going to go on the journey with you because you may 420 00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.200 have directed a lot of pictures, or you may be new, but each 421 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.240 thing you do is you know is going to be new, even if it's 422 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.000 part of a series or it's a routine show. You're going to bring what 423 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:51.160 you bring to it, your eyes and your talent, and you just in 424 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:55.839 editing. That continues. The one thing I've always had a problem with with 425 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.519 younger directors or just in experienced directors, and they walk in the suite, 426 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:05.559 they really truly don't understand the responsibilities of an editor. And a lot of 427 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.760 times, you know, I always, I always I go there. There's 428 00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:12.440 two camps of editors. There's creative editors who have I've dealt with, and 429 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:16.159 there's online editors and not online in the traditional sense, but the online is 430 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:22.239 in like putting in the final visual effects, cleaning things up, tightening up 431 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.119 technically, getting ready for the export that stuff. Because a lot of creative 432 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:30.719 directors I've worked with are clueless when it comes to any of that stuff. 433 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.880 They're there just for the creative and if you go can you insert a via 434 00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.760 effects, like I need an assistant for that. I can't. That's not 435 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.360 what I do. Can you talk a little bit about what the responsibility of 436 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:47.920 an editor is traditionally and what so many editors are nowadays, Like myself, 437 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.559 when someone would come in and I would edit a feature, I would edit 438 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.800 the future, I would put in the visual effects, I would tempt visual 439 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:59.199 effects, I would do a color grade, I would prep it for final, 440 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:01.199 I would prep it for sound. I became a post supervisor at that 441 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.320 point. Essentially I was doing everything. I was doing creative and I was 442 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.639 doing online. So there are those kind of hybrid versions. But traditionally, 443 00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:15.639 what are the responsibilities of a creative editor? Let's say I think traditionally the 444 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:21.760 responsibility is, as I've mentioned, to tell the story and to see what 445 00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:27.559 characters work, what characters possibly need to be dropped or cut down or shifted, 446 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.440 what scenes need to be shifted? How you know? How how does 447 00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:37.400 the the conception hauled up in the editing room? And and a lot of 448 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:43.679 directors feel for the first cut that they need to represent you the director's vision. 449 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:46.719 They they you know, you need to see it the way you thought 450 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:50.280 it was going to work, And then the two of you can go together 451 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:53.960 and tinker with that or drastically change it, or do whatever you're going to 452 00:35:54.039 --> 00:36:00.320 do. You know, when when editing started in modern times of to say 453 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.920 the fifties, you were editing on film and you had one or two tracks 454 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.559 and one picture. Now with the system, you know, Alex and other 455 00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:15.360 people that editor work, that editors work on, there are an infinite amount 456 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:19.239 of tracks. You can have tracks within tracks within tracks, and not just 457 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.159 audio tracks but video tracks. So you can do you know, very simple 458 00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:28.599 effects phades and dissolves, and you can do green screen. You can do 459 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:34.800 very complex video effects. Now those really complex ones you're probably not going to 460 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.880 do on the system because they're going to take up too many system resources and 461 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.159 you're going to drop them in. And you know, on a big video 462 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:46.239 effects show you're going to have a video effects editor and a whole department and 463 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.519 you know, probably a post house of some kind behind you. So you 464 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.920 know, in answer to your question, the editor can be simply the you 465 00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.280 know, the storyteller making things work, or they can be you know, 466 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.639 they can be doing everything like you did, Alex. They can be doing 467 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.360 all the effects. They can be doing the video you know, all the 468 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:14.000 sound they can mix right on the system. You can put in scratch track 469 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.920 right on the system, which is really handy when you're working along and seeing 470 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.920 if things are working, and maybe you have to add a VEO that you 471 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.480 didn't anticipate, or you have one and you want to see how it lays 472 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:32.880 up against your picture. So there's no real answer to that anymore. Before 473 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:36.760 it would be just the one thing. It just depends on your budget, 474 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.159 and you know, is it a commercial, is it a feature, is 475 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:44.960 it a doc? Is it a But I do think that the directors should 476 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.039 be very clear with the editor on what their capabilities are because they might walk 477 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.400 in thinking that they can online the whole thing and they're like, I really 478 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.679 can't. And the editors should be honest too, like I'm a creative editor. 479 00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:59.159 I maybe be able to get you a little bit closer to the to 480 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.000 the finish line, but I can't do everything that you need me to do, 481 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:06.119 So that both parties really need to be clear about that, which is 482 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.400 something early on that was justn't even a question. Is the editor just cut 483 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:14.519 and then someone else, the online editor would take over and take it. 484 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:20.800 There was more division of duties where now it's just all everybody, even the 485 00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.760 director. Like myself, I direct and I edit, So I come in 486 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.960 and I'll do my own post, and I'll do my own color, and 487 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:30.760 I'll do my own everything. Yeah, I mean, you know where you're 488 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:34.880 starting, and that's why you know I wrote this book. You want to 489 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:40.639 know where you're finishing, who's doing what. And yes, now can you 490 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.360 talk a little bit about what the assemble cut is because the difference between the 491 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:50.519 assemble cut my definition at least maybe yours is different. But the assemble cut, 492 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.800 then there's the first draft, the first cut, basically the first draft 493 00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:59.159 cut, then the final cut and then that's it. But the assemble cut, 494 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.480 my definition, assemble cut is always like you literally look at the script 495 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:06.440 and whatever scene is there, you just cut it together and you put it 496 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.880 all there, regardless if it works or not. Is that an assemble cutting 497 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:14.039 your definition as well not? You know, to me, a first cut 498 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:20.320 is where you're putting everything together as script as outlined. An assembly to me 499 00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:31.159 is more you're sort of putting the shots together within a scene, and you 500 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:37.320 know, it all depends on whether you're fine cutting or rough cutting. I 501 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:44.159 mean a lot of people like to. Some editors work by you know, 502 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:49.639 they sort of get things going and get things in order, and then they 503 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.559 go back and fine tune it. We'll be right back after a word from 504 00:39:53.599 --> 00:40:01.519 our sponsor, and now back to the show. And to me, that 505 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.280 would be more of an assembly. You sort of know the shots you're going 506 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:10.760 to use and you put them together others of us and uh, I find 507 00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:16.159 cut from the beginning. I cannot tighten up. I want my timing from 508 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:22.320 the beginning, because you know you will. You will find, you know, 509 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:24.840 if you're a director and you're sitting with an editor cut and you're working 510 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:30.880 together, that you will. Your mind is always going five shots ahead and 511 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.159 and sort of a little behind, where did I come from? And where 512 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.760 am I going? And well if we go here, then this is going 513 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:39.960 to be we're going to have to do this, and if we you know, 514 00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:44.760 you know, it's very intense, it's very you know, it really 515 00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:50.239 uses you come out and you're kind of exhausted if you haven't been editing for 516 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:54.000 a while. It's a very intense, you know, seeing what works and 517 00:40:54.039 --> 00:41:00.159 then and then it is like like music, you want to drop back, 518 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:01.960 you want to go away for an hour or a day or a night, 519 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.679 an evening, and then come back and see, you know, was that 520 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.199 thing we've got really high on yesterday? That really was that like the greatest 521 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:15.119 thing we ever did? Or does that pulled up overnight? It's a lot 522 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.239 you want you want it. In editing, you may there may be a 523 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:24.000 lot of trial and error and and and that's just the nature of the game. 524 00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.840 I think that I wanted to kind of touch on something you just said, 525 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.639 is the because sometimes in the edit room you are in this delusion, 526 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:37.000 this twelve hour Oh my god, we just cut the greatest scene of all 527 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.440 time, and then you go home, you sleep on it, You come 528 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.199 in, you watch and like, yeah, that doesn't work. What happened? 529 00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:45.159 You really need to give yourself that pace, And not only with a 530 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:50.039 scene or a cut, but with the film. You need to go away 531 00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:52.360 from it for a while, because once you're in it for so long, 532 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.880 you lose perspective. And sometimes you do need to just put it, you 533 00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:00.840 know, turn off the computer for a week, walk way, do something 534 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:02.639 else, then come back to It's kind of like writers. Writers who are 535 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.320 writing and writing and writing at a certain point, they just got to stop. 536 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.480 When they're done. Put it away for a few weeks, come back 537 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:13.079 and reread it to see if it's truly the genius that they thought it was 538 00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.639 in the first place. Yeah. And you know, it's a great analogy 539 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:21.960 because you know when I've done a lot of script writing also, and you 540 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.440 know, when you write, you want to get the script the best that 541 00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:30.679 you can. And then and the same as editing, you want to get 542 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:32.920 the cut as the best you can. And then at a certain point you 543 00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.119 need feedback. I mean, you are creating this for an audience, and 544 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:43.039 so you need to get people, you know, a loyal, focused group 545 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:47.480 of some kind to come in and say I don't get this main character, 546 00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:52.960 or I don't like that scene, or that's really hard, and then then 547 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:57.960 you decide what you're going to do from there. Fair enough, fair enough? 548 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.639 Now can we talk about the holy place that is the final cut or 549 00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:08.920 locked cut? The I call it holy. It's sacred because as an editor, 550 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:15.480 when the cut is locked, many directors and producers think that's fluid. 551 00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:20.480 No, it's locked. If it's locked, that means that audio is working 552 00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:24.039 on it, visual effects are working on it, score is working on it. 553 00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:29.119 If you change a frame, the whole thing comes crashing down. Can 554 00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:32.840 you just talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I know, I 555 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.000 totally get your point. When you lock a cut, it means you're not 556 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.280 going to change another picture frame and so that it will not get shorter by 557 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.119 a frame, it will not get longer by a frame. It will stay 558 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:54.239 exactly the same length. And this is incredibly critical for the sound editors because 559 00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:00.360 if you you know, on a feature, you're going to have you know, 560 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:04.880 folly, you're going to have effects, and then you're gonna have dialogue 561 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.840 editors and they are all dependent on this cut, and if you change it 562 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:13.280 by one frame, their timing and your sound is off. The music doesn't 563 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.039 start right that you know, and so in the same goes for music, 564 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:23.079 so they do what's called conform to the to the latest, the locked cut, 565 00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:28.880 and that's what you mix to. You don't want to be having the 566 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:34.360 bombs fall and you've taken out half a scene and oops or frame or frame 567 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:38.679 one frame willknock the entire thing out of whack. So it's not efficient of 568 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:44.440 the studios time or money. And your job is going to be on the 569 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:51.559 line if you if you unlock the cut and you know past uh, you 570 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:57.480 know, past time when when people are really mixing. Having said that sound 571 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.239 editors call it becomes uh it, it becomes unlocked, or it slips a 572 00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:08.519 little, and you kind of can get away with certain things and everyone knows 573 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:12.960 it. Like if there was a cut between Alex and me, and let's 574 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:17.840 say it was a dissol and it was ten frames long, but let's say 575 00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:22.320 we want to wait it so we see more of Alex now instead of me. 576 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:27.800 There's still going to be ten frames, but we're gonna Yeah, you 577 00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:32.920 can, you can slip a little. But again, you know, if 578 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.119 you've got something that has very precise timing and you've got all these people that 579 00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.320 you're paying, you're going to be paying them more and it is going to 580 00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:45.639 take longer if you are frame. I don't want to use the word no, 581 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.519 I know the words you're I knew exactly the words you're going to say 582 00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:58.480 A frame frame effing my drift here to the to the last minute. And 583 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:05.119 you know, the truth is with today's digital editing systems, people change stuff 584 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:08.039 after they've been on air. Lucas went back and changed all of Star Wars 585 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:15.800 and recolored them and redid some of the effects, so nothing really is fixed 586 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.960 anymore. I mean I'm being honest here. I mean in terms of getting 587 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.679 your movie made and staying employed. You want to stick with the lock cut 588 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:29.440 and hit the deadline and all that, but the truth is stuff you know, 589 00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:32.519 people do go back into shows, and if it's your movie, you 590 00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:36.719 can do what you want till accounts come home, if you're paying the bills, 591 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.960 but just know that it's gonna It's going to cost you time and money, 592 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.360 and you may lose some people along the way because they get other jobs 593 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:49.480 or they get too frustrated. The frustration is a very good word to use. 594 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.079 And since you were up north in northern California, you must have heard 595 00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:58.159 of the lore of Star Wars, the first Star Wars as you brought Georgia 596 00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:02.679 up. That cut of Star Wars was an absolute dismal mess and it was 597 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:07.760 horrible, and because I think the studio stuck him with an editor that he 598 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.960 didn't want, and the first cut looked horrible, and then he had to 599 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:19.320 go in with his wife and I forgot who the Academy Award editor, Thank 600 00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.280 you, went in and some of there was two wasn't there was two? 601 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:28.519 There was there was Marcia Lucas and Paul and I honestly forget the third in 602 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:30.079 it, but there was, but there was another one, and then everybody 603 00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.280 went back in and and made it into what we are today. But it 604 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:38.559 was completely it was destroyed and then saved in the cut, same footage, 605 00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:44.719 same footage, but just put together differently. And that's the power. And 606 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:49.800 look what look at the power of the editor did for that film and all 607 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:53.119 the things that have come afterwards. Yeah, I mean, Paul Hirsch actually 608 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.039 wrote a book about his career. Yeah, I saw. I saw that 609 00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:00.559 one recently, Yeah, yeah, and I actually put it in the book. 610 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:06.199 So I do talk about the Star Wars and and how they introduced Luke 611 00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:10.199 at it at a different point, and how they cut stuff down and and 612 00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:20.119 and just how exactly how they crafted it and rearranged the scene with Obi wan 613 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:24.000 Kenobi and Princess Leiah and and Luke where Luke says, no, I can't 614 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.760 help you when leaves and he appeared callous in the first cut, and they 615 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:34.840 just rearranged things. And so that's in the book actually too, to analyze 616 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.480 a little, to analyze something like that, because that's a great learning tool 617 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.039 of like, you know, Luke. If you cut them at the wrong 618 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:43.440 time, he looks Kyle, it's the other time he looks Aro. It's 619 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:49.320 editing is powerful stuff, guys, It's extremely powerful stuff. Is a weapon, 620 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:53.239 uh in the creative battle that can be wielded, and you've got to 621 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:59.239 be very careful with it. And just you know, just know that the 622 00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:04.599 great Lucas you know, made mistakes. I mean everybody, al all the 623 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:09.280 greats, and they've done all kinds of stuff and and and you're gonna learn 624 00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:15.440 and do your great make your great imprint. And the faster you the faster 625 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:16.599 you make these mistakes, the faster you learn. So you have to make 626 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:21.000 as many mistakes as fast as possible and continue making them throughout your career, 627 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.880 because everyone does that. There's very few directors who have a perfect filmography, 628 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:30.000 very few, if any, that have an absolute perfect you know, some 629 00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:35.159 art is art. It's hard to hit the home run. And what is 630 00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.400 a home run? What's the definition of a home run? And in art? 631 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.400 You know. Now I want to ask a few questions I ask on 632 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.760 my guests. I normally ask what's three of your favorite films of all time? 633 00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:49.280 But I'd love to ask you what are three of the best edited films 634 00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.199 of all time, in your opinion that the editing really took a kind of 635 00:49:52.199 --> 00:50:01.039 a front seat. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and 636 00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:07.280 now back to the show. Well, Raging Bull is one that comes to 637 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:14.000 a lot of people's mind, and to be honest, before I wrote this 638 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:21.679 book, I never paid attention to sorry about the phone, just the violent 639 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.880 nature of the relationship and I and the woman being brutalized. When it came 640 00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:30.239 out in the eighties, I wanted no part of the film, But in 641 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:36.480 writing the history chapter, I actually end up ended up reading and writing a 642 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:44.599 lot about and researching a lot about the film. And I think there is 643 00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:50.360 an example of film schoonmaker and Marty Scarce Scorse is a you know, an 644 00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:54.239 editor, director, payir that have you know, that are bonded for life 645 00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:59.679 and that have done incredible stuff since Woodstock when he was an assistant director and 646 00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:05.840 she on the Academy board for a documentary, which is really unusual for Best 647 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:12.639 Film anyway. So I would definitely say Raging Bull because it just takes things 648 00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:15.239 to a different level, and it was planned a lot of those slow mo 649 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:21.199 shots and the sweat flying across. I mean it's and I would not only 650 00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:25.440 look at it, I would read about it because that will help your directing 651 00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:32.880 and your thinking about editing. So that's definitely one and any other couple that 652 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.360 you could think of, or just two of your other favorite films that you 653 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:44.280 just love watching. And you know, there was a movie that came out 654 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:46.480 in the seventies when I was a projection. It was it was called From 655 00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:53.679 Noon Till Three, and it was Jill Ireland and Charles what was the action 656 00:51:53.880 --> 00:52:00.440 star her husband, Charles Bronson. Yeah, Charles Bronson, and I would 657 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:05.360 like to see it again because you just don't know how things hold up. 658 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:15.559 It was basically the story and that that he's he's comes into town and they 659 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:19.960 have a noon to three, they have a romance, and then he's arrested 660 00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:25.159 and goes to prison. And she's like a stereotypical like a school arm or 661 00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:29.760 something. So this was like the greatest, you know, one of the 662 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:32.920 big thing that happened in her life. So the whole town becomes about this 663 00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:38.360 robbery, and they recreate him and her and all of them, and you 664 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:45.559 know, they romanticize the romance. And then he comes back from prison and 665 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:47.920 he wasn't really a robber. He was a snake oil salesman. I think 666 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:52.719 that got caught up and she sees him and it's just like there's nothing there. 667 00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:58.039 It's like she has gone into the fantasy. So I guess it wasn't 668 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:04.360 the editing in that one so much as just the story. And then the 669 00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:08.480 other My other favorite film is Prime of Miss Gene Brody, Oh Nice, 670 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:14.199 the original, And I think that I've realized is it's because it's the whole 671 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:22.159 teacher student relationship and that we all have teachers in our lives that eventually we 672 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:28.199 outgrow. And and I've watched that film since I was in my twenties, 673 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:35.760 and my views of it have really changed. So I don't know those The 674 00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:38.840 one really spoke more to editing and is famous for it, but the other 675 00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:44.119 two are just some of my you know, films that meant something. Hey, 676 00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:47.559 that's a good answer. And where can people find your books and the 677 00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:52.840 work that you do. My books are all on Amazon. You can just 678 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:58.320 put my name in G. A. E. L. And Chandler and 679 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:05.320 there also available from my ever loving film publisher, Michael Weezyproductions dot com. 680 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:07.440 Very good, Gil, Thank you so much for being on the show. 681 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:13.719 It was fun talking shop with another editor, and I appreciate all the work 682 00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:19.320 you're doing and helping educate directors and editors around the world. So I appreciate 683 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.559 you. Thank you so much, Thank you. I want to thank Gail 684 00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:27.480 so much for coming on the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on the Tribe 685 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:29.320 today. Thank you so much, Gail. If you want to get links 686 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:30.679 to anything we spoke about in this episode, please head over to the show 687 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:36.440 notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three sixty three. Thank you 688 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:38.840 so much for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter 689 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:43.840 what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting 690 00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:45.920 podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.