1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:44,039 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:48,960 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by doctor Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Allman, 11 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:51,640 here to talk to us about their brand new book, The Serial Killers 12 00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:56,320 Apprentice, the true story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into a 13 00:00:56,399 --> 00:01:00,560 killing machine. Catherine, Tracy, thank you for joining us to We're happy 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,719 to be here. Thank you. We're just so thrilled that the two of 15 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:11,799 you seem to be getting along pretty well for you murder here strong opinions. 16 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:17,359 I will say praise he is very patient because when I'm co writing with someone, 17 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,239 I have deadlines and I want these things to and she was quick with 18 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,200 things that I needed the research. She's really one of the best co writers 19 00:01:26,239 --> 00:01:32,439 I've had. That is high praise. But I think to finish that thought, 20 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:37,120 I think that both of us were incredibly passionate about this story and how 21 00:01:37,159 --> 00:01:42,159 important it was, and so there was a lot of working side by side 22 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,519 to make sure that happened. The best world past. So tell us how 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,680 this partnership came about. What got the story on your radar, and what 24 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:53,680 made you decide that Catherine was the best person to bring in for this project. 25 00:01:55,079 --> 00:01:59,359 And so basically, I had been working on a documentary series for NBC 26 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,480 about John Wayne Gazeho's called John Wayne Gacy Devil in Disguise, and at one 27 00:02:04,519 --> 00:02:07,960 point I had discovered that he had accomplices. We'd always thought John Wayne Gacy 28 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,319 was a lone wolf, but he was not. When I started to think 29 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,719 about his accomplices, I had an invitation to talk with Elma Wayne Henley, 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,800 and I took it and I called him or he called me. We connected. 31 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,000 I said, I've spoken with your mother in the past. I had 32 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:29,199 considered the possibility of interviewing her for another series that I worked on as a 33 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,759 producer, but I had never spoken with him. And when I started to 34 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:38,439 ask him, what is the accomplice dynamic that you could possibly see for John 35 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:44,400 Wayne Gaycy, he started to explain his accomplice dynamic with Dean Coral, And 36 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,719 as I was listening to this, it made me realize, wait, that's 37 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:53,039 not an accomplice. You were basically sucked in by somebody who groomed you, 38 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,879 and that upset me because I detest grooming. I followed these cases because I'm 39 00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:04,360 really upset that these sex trafficking networks from the nineteen seventies never really got appropriate 40 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,240 attention, and I really wanted to bring them to the four. And I 41 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:14,319 was working at the time with Catherine on a BTK documentary for Annie, and 42 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:17,759 I had heard through the grapevine that she was also interested in Elma Wayne Henley. 43 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,599 I knew that she was a stute professional and looked forward to approaching her 44 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,400 and seeing if she would want to work together, and sure enough, she 45 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:31,439 did. My interest in Henley crosses over hers because mine comes from a long 46 00:03:31,479 --> 00:03:38,360 ways back. And I had initially accepted the original true crime book from Jack 47 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,639 Olsen, The Mammoth Candy as that's the way things happened. And then around 48 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:50,280 two thousand and five, maybe I saw a documentary where Wayne Henley was being 49 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:55,240 interviewed about his artwork, and I thought my opinion might change because that guy 50 00:03:55,319 --> 00:04:00,680 doesn't seem at all like the guy that was presented in Olson's book, and 51 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,680 I developed an interest in wanting one day to talk with him. So after 52 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:10,080 we did the BTK documentary, the production team said to me they wanted to 53 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,960 follow up with another kind of thing like that, and they named three people 54 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,759 that I thought, none of which were feasible. But I said, but 55 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,959 I want Wayne Henley and they said, oh, Tracy Ollman is already talking 56 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,959 to him. And I said, if she'll introduce me, we can get 57 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:28,680 going. And that's exactly how it happened. There are probably going to be 58 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,600 some people who are not familiar with the name Dean Coral and the moniker the 59 00:04:32,639 --> 00:04:36,160 candy Man case, So just very briefly, can you give us a quick 60 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:42,639 rundown of who Dean Coral? David Brooks and Elma Wayne Henley are Dean Coral 61 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:46,199 known as the Candyman because he actually did make candy with his mother. They 62 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,920 had a candy factory and retail business, and he would use that to hand 63 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,600 out candy two kids in the street. He'd size up young boys and then 64 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,160 invite them back to play pool or go on as motorcycle, or go to 65 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:03,720 the beach with him and whatnot. And he became like the big brother of 66 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:06,920 the neighborhood, the hangout, the place they could hang out. But what 67 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:13,319 he was really doing was looking for potential victims. And he started with David 68 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,920 Brooks, who was I think about twelve years old when he first met Dean 69 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,759 Coral, and Dean was thirty. But Brooks came from a broken home where 70 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:27,160 neither parents seemed to have much to do with him. So Coral became a 71 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:30,720 father figure to him very quickly, gave him a place to say, gave 72 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,759 him money. Pretty soon was approaching him about sexual favors, giving him five 73 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:41,319 or ten bucks for it, and then getting him to help with bringing in 74 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:47,240 boys that Coral could actually torture, sexually, torture, murder, and Brooks 75 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,839 would then be part of the burial crew, and I believe that Wayne was 76 00:05:51,879 --> 00:05:57,199 brought in as a potential victim. David Brooks brought him in. David Brooks 77 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:00,319 walked up to him, befriended him and told him about Korrel, showed him 78 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,720 the money he could make, and brought him over. And there's a very 79 00:06:04,759 --> 00:06:11,360 harrowing scene in the book of where it looks like Chorrel's moving in to actually 80 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,439 bind him and turn him into a victim, but he says that he told 81 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:18,959 his mother, so he was able to escape. Then. I think this 82 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:25,360 is my speculation because Wayne was a very friendly, approachable kid who had a 83 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,879 lot of connections in the Houston neighborhood. I think Coral saw this as another 84 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:41,319 and better potential accomplice because Brooks was a geeky, awkward kid who kind of 85 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:46,480 asocial, not really very good at doing this, and he thought that Wayne 86 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:49,319 Henley would be better. So I think that's how the three of them ended 87 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:56,480 up becoming this team killers. Henley was leveraged into it. Brooks was leveraged 88 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:02,279 as well in terms of their need, their vulnerability, their gullibility. If 89 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:08,000 you want to add anything to that, Tracy, I think that all jibes 90 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:12,160 with my experience. So yeah, I think that you've got a good explanation 91 00:07:12,199 --> 00:07:15,600 of what happened, and what Kral was doing was leveraging this idea that there 92 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:20,319 was a sex trafficking network and that he was part of it, and that 93 00:07:20,399 --> 00:07:25,839 if they did not comply, this network was going to be aware of it 94 00:07:26,319 --> 00:07:30,120 and was going to there would be some dire consequences for them, but if 95 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,439 they did comply, they could get rich. Tracy, you had started by 96 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,519 telling us that this was part of an investigation into John Wayne Gacy. Can 97 00:07:39,519 --> 00:07:43,600 you explain a little bit more that John Wayne Gacy connection and the sex trafficking 98 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,800 ring? Then it's the syndicate. I had no idea about any of this. 99 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,879 I had never heard any of this. This was fascinating and harrowing. 100 00:07:49,279 --> 00:07:53,360 Can you go ahead and get into a little more detail about that. But 101 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:59,319 it is harrowing and it's very disturbing to know that such a massive sex trafficking 102 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:03,800 ring did exist, not just in our country, but it was worldwide. 103 00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:07,560 What had happened with John Wayne Gacy. I was approached at one point by 104 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,920 somebody who had worked as a managing editor at the Chicago Reader, Alison true, 105 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,439 and she said, we were looking into a property in the city of 106 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:20,639 Chicago where John Wayne Gacy worked as a manager, and we're wondering if there 107 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:24,759 are more bodies at that property. And I thought that should be an easy 108 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,959 answer. If there are, they would have taken them out, and if 109 00:08:26,959 --> 00:08:31,360 they're not, then we should have some evidence that somebody looked into it. 110 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,480 And as we looked into that, we realized, holy cow, not only 111 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,759 does it look like every report shows there are going to be more remains in 112 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,679 the yard of this property, but then you had to figure out why wouldn't 113 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:48,960 police go ahead and take these remains out of the ground. So it was 114 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,759 ten years that we spent trying to figure out the answer to that question. 115 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,159 And ultimately, as we looked into it, we discovered a man by the 116 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,720 name of John David Norman. And John Norman was an individual who had started 117 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,000 a lot of child pornography and sex trafficking out of San Diego, California, 118 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:13,519 and he had had a multitude of arrests over years where he just kept being 119 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:18,679 sprung out of prison and we couldn't figure out why he never stayed in prison. 120 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,399 He was an incorrigible repeat offender. In sex crimes, when there are 121 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:28,240 probably a variety of reasons why he didn't. But then you start seeing he's 122 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:33,200 in Dallas in nineteen seventy three when Dean Coral says he's got this syndicate. 123 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:41,440 He's arrested four days later because an individual from his organization in Dallas calls police 124 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,080 and says, I was supposed to be shipped to Dean Coral and he was 125 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,000 horrified. So where there's smoke, there's fire. And if this individual said 126 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,799 that was his concern, he knows it from the inside. They'd go to 127 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:58,799 John David Norman's house and they find literally tons of child pornography and all sorts 128 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:05,279 of of different paraphernalia that would show this is much wider or organization. There 129 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:09,240 were potentially fifty to one hundred thousand names on lists that had been compiled by 130 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:16,360 Norman. Norman is arrested, pays his bond, and leaves Dallas for Chicago, 131 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,159 where he's put up, and he starts crossing paths with John Wayne Gacy. 132 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:26,320 And once you see that John Wayne Gacy and John David Norman they share 133 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,440 people in common. In some of John Wayne Gacy's pacelips, he's paying a 134 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,679 man named Phil Pasky, and Pasky tends to be referred to as John David 135 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,559 Norman's right hand man. A lot of these people that are in sex trafficking, 136 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,360 they hang together. They've got a double bind, and especially when it 137 00:10:45,399 --> 00:10:50,559 comes to men who are attracted to boys and young men. And so when 138 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,960 you look at John Wayne Gacy, you start to see him with accomplices and 139 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,360 with a variety of victims. It makes sense that he's more in a kind 140 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:07,639 of pimp position than he is how he was portrayed as a lone wolf, 141 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:13,200 as somebody who was just evil and somebody who went to his death to pay 142 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,799 for his crimes. But then when you start really seeing both of these pictures 143 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:20,639 where you've got John Wayne Gacy as part of a much larger network of sex 144 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:26,200 traffic hearing people have to perform all sorts of roles in order to facilitate this, 145 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:31,679 to empower this John Wayne Gacy having six and seven felonious sexual assaults before 146 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:37,200 he's actually arrested, and he's not arrested in Chicago where he lives. He's 147 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,639 arrested in a suburb. When it comes to Deaned Coral, this is probably 148 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:46,519 a person that is rubbing shoulders with people that have some sort of power. 149 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,240 The victims that he's taking are generally from a two and a half mile squared 150 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:56,639 area in Houston called Houston Heights, And every report filed by a parent has 151 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,039 the same response as you've got in Chicago to John Wayne Gacy's victims. Your 152 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,639 child's are runaway, your child is probably doing drugs. It was putting the 153 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,799 onus back on the parents. You've done the wrong thing. There's a lot 154 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,840 of shaming going on, and nobody's really got answers until these things blow up. 155 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:16,919 And at the time they dug up twenty eight bodies, I think twenty 156 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,080 seven at the outset. But this was the largest mass murder in US history 157 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,799 at the time. When you think about how could that happen just under somebody's 158 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:31,240 nose, it doesn't. There are multiple people involved and multiple people who end 159 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,440 up being culpable, and that for me was just horrifying, more horrifying than 160 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:41,240 if you just had a lone wolf. And I think Terracy mentioned something important 161 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,080 here that I didn't. You say choral. Maybe people haven't heard of Kral, 162 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,840 but in nineteen seventy three, this was the worst mass murder case before 163 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:56,559 they're even using the word serial killer, and they're stunned by all these bodies. 164 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:01,399 Nineteen you're seventeen found in a boat shed, six more on a beach, 165 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,480 and four more out of the lake. It was just astonishing, and 166 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,200 probably more than they even were able to exhum. Nobody knew what to make 167 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,720 of a case like this. It just defied any ideas that this is before 168 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,039 Gaycy. By the time Gaysey rolls around, we've had the Coral case. 169 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,919 They had one in California, Roun Corona who had murdered twenty five migrants and 170 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,840 put them into mass graves. But that wasn't anything like picking boys at a 171 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,039 big, basic neighborhood and the police doing nothing about it. One thing you 172 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,960 referenced a moment ago was the delay in searching the property that Gaysey was associated 173 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,399 with. What led to the delay. So you have this property, which 174 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:54,600 is in a suburban neighborhood in Chicago, and you have at least two victims 175 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:58,039 where the parents have said the last person my child saw was his employer, 176 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,799 John Wayne gay There is no follow up from what I know. It's just 177 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:07,840 based upon John Wayne Gacy's word that he absolutely has not seen this individual. 178 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:13,120 He doesn't have any of his belongings onny victim's belongings which he collected avidly. 179 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:20,320 They're putting the onus on this person who's a socio sexual serial killer to tell 180 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,320 them honestly, Whereas this individual, instead of ever going into the property doing 181 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:30,480 the search, they just take his word for it each and every time, 182 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,799 every time that he's committing a sexual assault. He says that kid's lying, 183 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:41,039 and they try to dispel responsibility by saying, you know how records were done 184 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,320 in the nineteen seventies, we didn't have access to digital records. They actually 185 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,159 did. There's just no way you can make an excuse for that many bodies 186 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:56,399 piling up in one location and not having police intervention. The only reason there 187 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,679 was police intervention in my research is that it was a different police department that 188 00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:05,919 had not had any contact with John Wayne Gacy. It was a child who 189 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:13,039 went missing that was a personal friends child of the police chief in displays, 190 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:16,840 and so he has a great motivation to get to the bottom of things. 191 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:20,720 While they're trying to figure out what's going on in this house. They are 192 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:24,679 not taking no for an answer. Whereas you start to see how politically connected 193 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:31,120 John Wayne Gacy was and how much people would defend his quote unquote honor. 194 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:37,399 In Chicago, you had mentioned that there was a list with literally thousands of 195 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:41,039 names on it. What happened to the list? So basically, this list 196 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,559 is given to Dallas Police after they find it at John David Norman's property. 197 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,120 The list is reviewed and it's found that the list incorporates a number of elite 198 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:58,200 people, people in power, judges, and they give the list over to 199 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,679 the State Apartment because two of the people listed are members of the State Department. 200 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,960 The list goes to their council, and a couple of years later, 201 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,320 in nineteen seventy seven, when they're reviewing this as part of a senatorial report, 202 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:18,960 they say that they have destroyed the list without making a copy because there 203 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,720 was some flooding, and so the list regenerated in Cook County jail. So 204 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:27,960 ultimately, John David Norman makes it up to Chicago, can't help himself. 205 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,559 He's almost immediately arrested for assaulting other young men, and he ends up in 206 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:37,279 jail and the list begins again. He gets access to the law library and 207 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:44,279 starts communicating and sending out a newsletter of all of his new cadets to at 208 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:48,240 least five thousand other people, and that list is ultimately confiscated. But he 209 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:53,879 couldn't have operated in the law library without having some facilitation. We know that 210 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,159 David Brooks died in twenty twenty, but Elmer Wayne Henley is still alive, 211 00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:06,799 and he was willing to work with you and talk about this accomplice dynamic. 212 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,079 Can you both talk a little bit about how many meetings you had with Henley, 213 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,519 what did your interview sessions look like, and how did this all eventually 214 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:21,079 shake out in terms of the interview process. Basically, when I called Amo 215 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:25,119 Wayne Henley and I said I wanted to know about the accomplice dynamic, and 216 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,880 he started to tell me his anecdotal experience, I thought to myself, this 217 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,759 strikes me as grooming. This is not somebody who's fully participating. Luckily, 218 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,519 not long after that I met Catherine. One thing that he made me promise 219 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,200 was that I was never going to interview him about the murders. And I 220 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,240 kept that promise, but I did not promise that Catherine when I made the 221 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:52,599 introduction, and so Katherine was going to act in our relationship as somebody who 222 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,200 was going to be giving him something like therapy. While she would be interviewing 223 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:02,640 him, she would also be helping him understand his memories, whereas for me, 224 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,160 mine were strictly journalistic questions. There was a certain amount of finesse to 225 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,119 get around his resistance. It initially was, and it was on the phone. 226 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,400 I didn't do this space to face. It was on the phone. 227 00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:21,279 We first started through letters. I wrote to him very similar the way I 228 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:25,119 started with Dennis Rader. Wrote to him, talked about what I wanted, 229 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:30,519 relied on his relationship and his trust in Tracy, that she trusted me, 230 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,319 and that maybe that would transfer. And he immediately said, when we first 231 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:44,000 talked on the phone, I will help you because I want what happened to 232 00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:49,400 me to count for something. But I'm not going to change my mind about 233 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,160 what I feel. I am complicit, I'm guilty. I don't want you 234 00:18:53,200 --> 00:19:00,839 to do anything that would mitigate that. So I listen, let him talk, 235 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:06,039 and little by little I would say, would you consider reading this piece 236 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,839 or something that I was writing or thinking about working on regarding the case, 237 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,359 And he would and then he'd come back and he'd talk about it. And 238 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,000 it did evolve within a couple of months into more like therapy, which he's 239 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:23,319 been in prison fifty years and never had any kind of therapeutic intervention. Wow, 240 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,480 And suddenly I think he saw me as a valuable resource for him, 241 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:33,599 and we began to have some very long Sometimes he was in one facility where 242 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,480 he could be on the phone for hours, and all I had to say 243 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,359 that the others was I'm talking to my therapist, even though I wasn't officially 244 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,559 and I will like to say, I'm not a clinical psychologist. I have 245 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:51,119 background as a therapist, and so I wasn't officially his therapist, but I 246 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:56,359 was doing some amount of therapeutic intervention for him. And as a result, 247 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:03,559 he started processing things in a very different way and thinking differently about his own 248 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,480 case and his vulnerability as a teenager at the time fifteen years old when he 249 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,400 first was really leveraged into it, and began to understand that maybe there was 250 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,920 some mitigation here that helped him a lot. I think to begin to look 251 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,720 at his case differently and to talk to us. Let me ask a couple 252 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,519 of logistics questions here for a second, Catherine, you were not limited in 253 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:32,720 how long you could talk in other words, the meter wasn't running, which 254 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,000 it often is when someone's in cars. Rat were you permitted to record these 255 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:42,200 lengthy calls? I was permitted by him. I did not ask any prison 256 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:48,079 person, right, but he knew you were recording. And obviously there's a 257 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,920 tremendous exchange of information back and forth, and you're always aware that the prison 258 00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:59,720 is recording stuff and they have access to everything you're saying. You always know 259 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:03,279 that as well. The same thing happens with any offender I'm talking to in 260 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,480 prison. So that's why Dennis Raider and I always use codes. But Henley 261 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,440 didn't want to. He said, no, no one's ever stopped me from 262 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,640 saying whatever I want to say, and there weren't any, as far as 263 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,839 I know, any repercussions about it. I asked him permission. We talked 264 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:22,640 for a while before I actually started recording, so I did not record everything 265 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,160 that was said, but at the time he gave him permission that I began 266 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,480 to record it. So, Catherine, how similar was this process to the 267 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,519 work that you did with Dennis Raider. Not at all time, Not at 268 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:40,079 all, Okay, because Raider was proud of his murders. He's a serial 269 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,839 killer, and Henley was horrified. He had wanted to be a minister as 270 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,519 a kid. He carried a bible in his shirt pocket. This is not 271 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,519 somebody who ever thought about killing anybody, and here he is being part of 272 00:21:53,559 --> 00:22:00,000 this killing crew. And also he is more articulate because he has self taught. 273 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,680 He does a lot of reading. He has an IQ of one twenty 274 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,960 six. I believe, very different experience from talking to an offender who really 275 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,680 wants to talk about now Dennis Raider, I will give him some credit. 276 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,759 Was reflective, wanted to think about why did I do this? But he 277 00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:22,519 had certain limitations in terms of what we were trying to do with that particular 278 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,960 book. He wanted to record his dark journey, as he called it. 279 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:33,599 That was not Henley's intent by any means. Henley wanted this to be something 280 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:40,200 that would be useful in a broader way, so that it's like a cautionary 281 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:45,720 tale rather than just an autobiography. So very different. Would you classify as 282 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:52,240 ininctive for him with redemptive has religious connotations, I'm not sure I'd say redemptive 283 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:57,880 so much as he now has a story that he can be remembered by in 284 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,039 a way that isn't the terrible things he did as a teenager, that there's 285 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,480 more to the story, and that he's able to help us to figure out 286 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:15,920 how predators operate, especially with vulnerable teenagers. He's able to confirm our list 287 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:22,000 of cautions that we supply in the last chapters for counselors and parents and teachers. 288 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:29,599 So ultimately, it is redemptive, but it's not something he was looking 289 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,640 at as a vehicle for redemption. Although it's interesting here's a guy who has 290 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,759 a Bible in his pocket, as you mentioned, and yet isn't seeking redemption, 291 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,400 absolution, forgiveness. He's changed, and I think Tracy can maybe talk 292 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:48,920 more about this. He's changed his position on religion, as we all do, 293 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,799 I think through our lives. I think at this point he's a very 294 00:23:52,960 --> 00:24:00,559 rational thinking individual. I think that he did leave his religious practice after all 295 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,720 of this was said and done, because ultimately, Dean Coral had a way 296 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,640 of reminding him, where's your God now? How is your God intervened to 297 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:14,119 prevent these murders? For him to live through that type of trauma, he 298 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,599 had to separate himself from a God who was doing nothing to prevent this. 299 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,039 Another thing that I wanted to add to what Catherine was saying. While she 300 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:29,240 was talking with Wayne, I was interviewing his friends and other people that were 301 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,359 historically involved with the case, but not on the law enforcement end. And 302 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,799 what we started piecing together, and this was the same thing that happened in 303 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:41,640 the John Wayne Gacy case, was that you have records that show the syndicate 304 00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:48,559 was being talked about, that child pornography had been shown to police involving the 305 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,319 victims, which would give an indication that there was a wider distribution network. 306 00:24:52,759 --> 00:25:00,839 You start to see that maybe individuals are either complicit in law enforcement or in 307 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,599 other ways in which we rely on them in our darkest moments, in our 308 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:11,599 moments of need, and they're actually actively preventing the distribution of information that would 309 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:18,039 help really get to the bottom of what happened here. You're listening to Mind 310 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:37,200 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 311 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,200 back here at mindover Murder. From a journalistic standpoint, this must have been 312 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,960 pretty difficult. There is not a lot of information available on Jane Quarrel because 313 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,839 it wasn't until after he was dead that his crimes were discovered, and there 314 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:55,599 didn't seem to be a lot of people who were willing to talk to police 315 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,440 about him. So can you both speak to the kind of challenges that a 316 00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:03,799 birth of information on a subject presents for you when you're actually trying to do 317 00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:10,119 reporting on him on tra season and then trying to understand him on Catherine's end. 318 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,359 I think it's important to point out that Wayne is the only accomplice to 319 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,759 a serial killer to have killed the killer to end it. That speaks to 320 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:25,799 his character. That was self defense, but also saving two of his friends, 321 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:30,319 and then he killed Dean and as a result, Dean Coral never went 322 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,720 to trial, and the irony is had he lived, Wayne would have been 323 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:40,319 on the prosecution side as the witness against him, right instead of serving basically 324 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,119 serving Dean Coral's prison term, which is what he ended up doing. The 325 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,559 fact that Coral was killed, and that he had been a very secretive man 326 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,000 in the first place, and then basically all anyone knew about him was this 327 00:26:53,200 --> 00:27:00,279 facade of nice guy that he put on as a manipulation of the entire community. 328 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,440 It was really hard to dig in and find stuff. We did find 329 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:08,920 some things. There were a few early true crime accounts. So there were 330 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,279 newspaper articles, There was a little bit of a police report. They interviewed 331 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:21,200 his father, mother, brother, so there was some and a pseudo fiance 332 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,319 and I'm saying pseudo because she was a front for him. She didn't know 333 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,240 she was, but she was a friend for him. She had some things 334 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:30,799 to say. There was a guy that he had a relationship with. So 335 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,559 we found some things. But most of what you're going to know about Dean 336 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,519 Coral, his speculation and the way he operated based on things that Brooks and 337 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:48,480 Henley said in their police statements, and other people who were found by police 338 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,000 said about his approach to them. These are the things that help us to 339 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,559 piece together who he was based on what we do know about sexual predators. 340 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:03,279 This is someone who's operating in the early nineteen seventies as so far as we 341 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,119 know. As a journalist, my goal was not just to look at Dean 342 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,319 Coral, but to find evidence that there was trafficking. What kept me going 343 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:18,720 initially was that I found newspaper articles from nineteen seventy five in nineteen seventy six 344 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,599 showing that a number of the victims who we expected went right away to their 345 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,079 deaths had actually been photographed and that there had been pornography made of them. 346 00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:34,440 So that indicates that Dean Coral isn't simply operating alone. He's got somebody who 347 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:40,119 took receipts, receipt of these photos, and that these photos are then printed 348 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,440 and distributed. You're finding them in Houston, you're finding them in California. 349 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,559 You've got another individual by the name of Roy Clifton Ames who is found to 350 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:55,160 have just tons of child pornography in Houston and a huge warehouse. And they 351 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,559 try to get Roy Ames to give them a heads up to what they know 352 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,160 is a massive sex trafficking ring, and he basically told them I'm not going 353 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,680 to give you anything because I can operate just as well from prison. So 354 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,599 this is somebody who was making a lot of money and knew his business. 355 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:18,079 You never hear these names. You don't understand the investigation except for what we 356 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,759 can piece together. Almost fifty years later, nobody came out with this. 357 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:25,720 There were some journalists at the time who had a clue. There was a 358 00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:30,680 man by the name of Ken Wooden who worked for sixty minutes and he did 359 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:36,599 a piece kiddie porn for sixty minutes in nineteen seventy seven. He was aware 360 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,480 he had seen the list in the Dallas Police Department of the Johns that John 361 00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,920 David Norman had. He understood the gravity of how big this was, and 362 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:52,799 actually part of my investigation with Alison True showed that you had satellites in Nebraska, 363 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:57,240 you have it in North Fox Island in Michigan. You have another one 364 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,119 in New Orleans, Causiana. You have another one in Connecticut. It was 365 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:08,319 absolutely massive. A lot of these organizations, including John David Norman's Core, 366 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:15,160 would get state and federal funding as five oh one C three's because for the 367 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:22,279 young men that they were abducting and educating, they were getting funds to help 368 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:29,400 with this education. So it's an incredibly cynical This is all way before the 369 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:37,119 Internet. How are these horrific images being moved around the country and what's happening 370 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,240 at the same time with the surviving victims. What's the method of distribution here? 371 00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:48,480 So the method of distribution that we identified was that you basically have ads 372 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:53,480 going into magazines like The Boy Scouts, Boys Life, and in the back 373 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:59,720 they would be encoded asks and other pedophiles would understand, oh, I could 374 00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:03,480 get a copy of this kid's photo and brown paper bag it to your house 375 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:11,039 through the United States Postal System. I avoided the United States Postal System looking 376 00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,880 to see their investigation for John David Norman, and I was told I could 377 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:22,519 not get those files because he has a surviving child. It would be an 378 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:26,160 invasion of his privacy. I was a Boy Scout, I was an Eagle 379 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:32,200 Scout. I was an explorer. I had a subscription to Boy's Life for 380 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:36,759 years since I was about I don't know when did I join the Cub Scouts 381 00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:41,880 sixth to the time I was probably eighteen and went off to college. There 382 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:48,079 were ads in Boy's Life that obviously we as kids, weren't paying attention to. 383 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,359 What would they say? How would you code language in a general interest 384 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:59,839 magazine read by kids and Scout leaders. So in Franklin County, Tennessee, 385 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:05,680 you had an organization called Boys Farm, and Boys Farm was to help young 386 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,480 men in the cities who didn't have exposure to the outdoors to come on in 387 00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:15,039 and join Boys Farm. That's really all they needed to say, and that 388 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,079 was a wink to somebody else who then come to Boys Farm and find those 389 00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:25,400 boys. It's absolutely terrifying the ways in which these people operated, and I 390 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,279 don't always know that it was under the radar, and who in law enforcement 391 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:34,680 may have had a clue. Some of the people in law enforcement that I 392 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,319 contacted seemed to have an idea of what had been going on. They knew 393 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:45,720 that it wasn't something that they were going to be able to dig into. 394 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:50,920 If they found something, they weren't always granted an investigation, And it really 395 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,039 depends on those people in power and what their agendas are to make that happen. 396 00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:59,200 So it is. It's very tricky stuff, in my opinion, and 397 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:06,359 it's so important for us to recognize as humans that our base instincts are drives, 398 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,759 some of them which in civilization we determined to be perverted damaging. Some 399 00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:15,680 other people see as a basic need or that's part of their psychological emo, 400 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,400 and they're going to do what they have to do to make it, and 401 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,200 there are victims that are scattered all around them. Unfortunately, I've never seen 402 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,759 one of the ads. I know it was coded. There were labels given 403 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:37,319 to these candidates. They were clothed in things like vacations, getaways. Really 404 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,680 that hard to make these communications. First of all, there wasn't any Internet, 405 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,319 There weren't any CCTV cameras. You got enough names on a newsletter mimeographed 406 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,160 newsletters, even though mimeographing is anymore, but that's basically what they were. 407 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:59,799 Yeah, And they were coded in order to communicate with one another. They 408 00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:02,960 looking for one another. They couldn't meet in chat rooms. There weren't anything 409 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:07,679 like that, but they could figure out where to find these publications. And 410 00:34:07,719 --> 00:34:15,719 the publications always came across as seemingly innocent young men, not boys, even 411 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,039 though they obviously from the pictures were boys. So they would find any way 412 00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:24,800 they could to make it seem innocent. It's predatory. What predators do. 413 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,920 They disguise themselves, and they work within the system because that's the easiest way 414 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,519 to do it. No one's looking at something that looks normal. I think 415 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:38,559 that's probably as much as I can say about that part. And the other 416 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:43,239 big thing is this definitely generates a lot of money. You've got a lot 417 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,840 of money to pay people off to look the other way. You've got a 418 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:52,079 lot of money to facilitate these occasional overseas trips by older men who are just 419 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,920 concerned for the growth of young boys. You look at how big this ends 420 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,480 up being, and it is it's very intimidating all to realize this lays the 421 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:07,800 path for these child pornography photos at the very beginning of the Internet, and 422 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:14,199 that the draw just recycles over again, and new skills are learned, how 423 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:21,400 to navigate, use secret language, and the anonymity just expands the reach. 424 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:28,800 And now with the Internet, the dangers are exponentially enhanced in terms of how 425 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,360 they can meet together, the kind of language they can form to communicate, 426 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:39,679 the access they have to the prey that they want, the ability to disguise 427 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,639 themselves and use disappearing things like Snapchat and whatnot. There are all kinds of 428 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:51,119 dangers today that certainly weren't around in the nineteen seventies. But we're set up 429 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,480 by these networks back then, and I want to make sure that we get 430 00:35:54,519 --> 00:36:00,519 to what I think is one of the most incredibly informative and helpful parts of 431 00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:05,800 the book, which is this massive wealth of information and it's for any adult 432 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:07,679 with a child in their life that they want to protect. So I would 433 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,599 say that what you guys have set up in terms of guidelines would be good 434 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:15,039 for parents, family members, educators, counselors, law enforcement, you name 435 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:20,639 it. You offer this list of fifteen different guidelines to help adults keep the 436 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,920 children in their lives safe from predators. Prior to that is a chapter to 437 00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:31,000 show this isn't isolated. There are other predators doing these things to kids, 438 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:37,880 and I go through a number of other kinds of affiliations like this. I 439 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:44,079 also developed an idea called murder like a radar that predators use to figure out 440 00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:47,800 who's vulnerable and how can they manipulate that and room those kids. And then 441 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,639 also talk about the temporary psychopath that is taking kids who've already been through abusive 442 00:36:53,679 --> 00:37:00,159 situations so they've developed a callousness and manipulating that to turn them into kids who 443 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:05,119 will do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, but they will do so under the 444 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:10,119 influence of this very dominating predator. I wanted people to understand this is not 445 00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:15,000 an isolated thing. This goes on. It's going on today. It isn't 446 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,960 just kids who are preyed who are vulnerable, but kids are vulnerable to being 447 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,599 picked up and pulled into partnerships. And so that leads the way to what 448 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,119 happens in the final chapter with the list I don't have kids of my own, 449 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:32,440 but I teach one hundred and fifty of them every year, and this 450 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:38,280 is the most important single piece of information that I would give to everyone that 451 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,639 I work with. They'd think I was being a weirdo, but I would 452 00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:45,559 be like, no, seriously, this is really important to know and understand. 453 00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:49,719 And as I was reading all of this, these wonderful guidelines and all 454 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,559 of the information you just talked about, Catherine, I was just nodding my 455 00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:55,039 head and going Every adult that I know needs to read this, whether they 456 00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:59,000 have kids or not. But if you work with kids and around them, 457 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:00,880 the little little all the way up to the big ones that I work with, 458 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,000 people need to know and understand this. Anybody can be groomed, and 459 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:08,840 it really depends on their vulnerability at the time. It doesn't mean that they 460 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,559 have to be young and naive. They could be at a place in their 461 00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:17,480 life where they're very lonely, they're looking for some companionship, and they end 462 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:22,480 up with a companion that happens to be a psychopath. I think one of 463 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:30,800 the bigger things that we latched onto in this list was hearing Wayne's story about 464 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,679 trying as hard as he could to tell the adults in his life what was 465 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,599 going on for him. Not once, not twice, but three times. 466 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:42,280 He told three different adults in his life, look, this is what's happening. 467 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,840 And it sounded so outrageous that they attributed his telling of the story to 468 00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:53,880 drugs or some form of mental illness. But child's coming to you and telling 469 00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:00,559 you that an individual in their lives is derailing them, Believe it and take 470 00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:06,039 action. I think that was something when I spoke with Wayne's mother that she 471 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,320 regretted to her dying day that she didn't save the letter that he had written 472 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,760 detailing exactly what had happened and turned it over to police so that they could 473 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:21,599 start to unearth this terrible tragedy instead of letting elmoy and Henley at the age 474 00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:24,800 of seventeen, have to decide I'm going to have to kill this man or 475 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,599 this will go on forever. The other big, I think, really big 476 00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:34,679 point that maybe I learned through this was that how predators don't just groom the 477 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,559 kid, They room the community because they want to be sure when this kid 478 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:43,280 does come and tell the community won't believe them because the community thinks this is 479 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:49,000 a good guy Wayne's mother thought she thought he's a little dicey, but she 480 00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:52,639 thought he's like a boy Scout leader. I don't see anything off about it. 481 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:57,639 And it gives Wayne a place to go and do things and resources and 482 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:04,199 whatnot. So they groom the community to seem trustworthy, even to seem important 483 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,039 to the community, so that when adults are told, they're more likely to 484 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,880 side with the predator than the kid. That's something I think all adults have 485 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,039 to keep in mind. Listen to the child, because you might have been 486 00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:23,079 duped by somebody. And these predators show up as oy scout leaders, youth 487 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:30,719 pastors, teachers, at any place they can find to get close to kids 488 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:37,519 and to seem trustworthy. They will be developing those relationships as much as they 489 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:43,440 are grooming the child. Everything that I was reading through here on this list, 490 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,159 it was like a light bulb was going off for me and realizing this 491 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,440 is so important. But I bet most adults outside of the true crime space 492 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,639 don't think about this sort of thing. Yeah. Also, the amount of 493 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:01,079 information that parents put out there about their families and there, oh my gosh, 494 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:07,440 yes, astonishing how predators are looking for those items and going, oh 495 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:12,000 boy, I can I know where that kid's going to school, I know 496 00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:15,760 when they come home for lunch, I know where they play in the playground. 497 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:20,679 There's all kinds of things that people put on these social media sites innocently, 498 00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,920 and not just the kids, but their parents too, thinking this is 499 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:29,079 a way to garner community, and it is, but it's also a way 500 00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:31,639 to attract predators. Even just the stickers that are on the back of a 501 00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:36,639 car, you can tell a kid's team if you've got a stick figure family 502 00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:39,760 with the names of the kids. There's so much on there, and you 503 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,960 can learn so much about somebody just from looking at the stickers on the back 504 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,679 of their car, which is it's just a little profiling game that I play 505 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,800 for myself. If I'm in traffic, I'll look and see how many things 506 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,760 that I learn about this person right now who's got seventeen bumper stickers in her 507 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,679 kids' names on all of them. And people are going to resist this advice 508 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,199 because they like doing these kinds of things. They don't really believe they're putting 509 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,920 their child at risk. But ask the kids. You mentioned that you really 510 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,760 were taken by the last thing that wanes in the book, Yah, and 511 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,400 I'll tell you a little story about that, because I wanted something from him 512 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,519 to end the book, and I'm going to tell you that he came out 513 00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:24,679 with this and it is verbatim. I did not do any corrections or work. 514 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:30,920 It all came pouring out from his own passion at this message, perfectly 515 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,559 poised to deliver the message from his heart. And I thought it was just 516 00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:40,239 such a fabulous way. I was happy that you said you really noticed that. 517 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,480 The final quote of the book, which I really do think was the 518 00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,960 strongest way that you both could have ended it is from Henley and it reads 519 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,519 this quote, I wake up every day and I'm still under Dean's thumb. 520 00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:54,639 I'm still living Dean's life. I understand why people are mad at me, 521 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,079 but be mad at me for what I've done. Be mad at me because 522 00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:02,440 I was weak, because I was young and made poor choices. Don't be 523 00:43:02,519 --> 00:43:08,239 mad at me for Dean's crimes. That's amazingly evocative. But I'm very curious 524 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:15,159 about his word choice there, when Henley says that he was weak, Do 525 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,239 you feel like that's the right word choice, Because if you're being groomed or 526 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,440 dominated or coercively controlled, or whichever term tends to fit best. Does that 527 00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:30,400 make you weak? He has trouble accepting the vulnerability. When you're a kid, 528 00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:35,559 you think you know everything, and he thought he should have known what 529 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,559 to do and done it. But he also was in this religious frame up, 530 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,440 and we all have free will, and so everything we do, it 531 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:49,760 comes back. It's our responsibility. He did not understand the teenage brain stuff 532 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,639 that we now know, the kind of home he came out of it, 533 00:43:52,679 --> 00:44:00,280 with the adverse circumstances that had prepared him for someone like Dean. He didn't 534 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,840 understand any of that. So no, week isn't the right word when you're 535 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:08,840 looking at it objectively. It's his word because he still needs to embrace that. 536 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:15,119 He feels responsible for certain things that happened early on when he thought I 537 00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:17,480 should have gone to the police. But even when he thought he should have 538 00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:22,119 gone to the police, he thought, who's going to believe a kid against 539 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:24,719 this adult? And what if they do arrest him and then he gets out 540 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,360 and the syndicate comes after me and my family. What am I supposed to 541 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,719 do? He's kept that very limited frame of a fifteen year old because he 542 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,880 was fifteen when this started. But you don't know that as a fifteen year 543 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:44,280 old. So he's still thinking I should have done something, I should have 544 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,880 known better. So he says weak. It's not weak, but I allowed 545 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,559 that as the person who was working therapeutically with him. That's the truth that 546 00:44:53,639 --> 00:45:00,000 he knows. But he also has changed considerably in terms of being more educated 547 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,599 about where kids are at with these kinds of situations. And even Brooks. 548 00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:07,760 I don't think Brooks would have ever turned dean in. I think Brooks had 549 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:13,000 had more antisocial personality and I think he would have just continued to go on 550 00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:17,920 with the stuff. But nevertheless, he was quite young, with no parental 551 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,599 resources whatsoever. His father even said to Wayne, don't hang out with my 552 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,760 son. He's going to come to no good. I think there's some excuse 553 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,119 there even for David Brooks, though I think he's much much more complicit because 554 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:36,159 he saw a lot, but he allowed himself to be bought by a new 555 00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:39,119 car. Okay, I'll keep my mouth shut, even though I know the 556 00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:43,639 kids that were just here are dead. But I still think you can make 557 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,119 some room for mitigation for him as well. Tracy, any thoughts about now 558 00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:52,639 that you've spent time with Henley, any thoughts about that final quote from him. 559 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,159 I really feel for him at this point. I've been in touch with 560 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,519 him for over four years. I speak with him reg lily. We just 561 00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,599 lived through the death of his mother, who I'd been talking to the same 562 00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:08,960 amount of time. When you look at his familial situation, his mother always 563 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:15,159 wanted to have kids. She had four sons. Unfortunately she had an abusive 564 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,599 husband. This is not unheard of, and so here she is left alone 565 00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:23,559 with four sons and the oldest son, Wayne feels responsible for the others, 566 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:29,559 which isn't unusual either, and so he's trying to guide their lives and be 567 00:46:29,679 --> 00:46:34,000 the big brother that they always needed. And then suddenly he finds himself in 568 00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:38,760 this situation where he's being offered some money if he could just make introductions to 569 00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:45,679 Dean Coral. Dean makes this a business proposition, initially to a kid who 570 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,199 really doesn't have a father figure and his mother is struggling financially to take care 571 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:57,159 of her brood. It's true that initially Dean Coral is introduced to Mary Henley. 572 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,800 They're the same age. There's no doubt that Wayne sees him in more 573 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,880 of a father figure. This is somebody who initially seems much kinder than the 574 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,159 man who took out a gun and almost shot him, and who ad write 575 00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:14,039 the family regularly. And Wayne's had to live with all of that, and 576 00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:17,559 he's thinking he's got a solution in his young mind, but he doesn't. 577 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,599 I look at his situation with a lot of compassion. Don't get me wrong. 578 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,320 I have a great amount of compassion for every one of the families who 579 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,679 had victims, and that the point that we're making in the book is not 580 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:37,480 to ignore the families that suffered through this and ignore the violence. We are 581 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:42,039 not here to prop up Elma Wayne Henley as a poster child. But what 582 00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:46,920 we are trying to say is this situation was tragic all around, and that 583 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,679 we have to start looking at grooming as another part of the equation. I 584 00:47:53,719 --> 00:48:00,239 think that Elmawayne Henley, in my opinion, was used by law enforcement as 585 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,639 somebody that everybody could apportion blame to. And at seventeen year years old, 586 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,280 he bore the weight of this, and people still harp on about it. 587 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,599 He killed twenty seven twenty eight people. He did not kill twenty eight people. 588 00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:16,360 This lies firmly with Dean Coral. He was the foster mind, there's 589 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,559 no doubt about it. But still Wayne doesn't have a defense. He can't 590 00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,159 say no, I didn't do that, because he's still the public enemy number 591 00:48:25,199 --> 00:48:30,360 one in the state of Texas, where they still very much know his name. 592 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,159 I look at his situation and I think that we have to be more 593 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,199 measured, if we are truly civilized. We have to give him some credit 594 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,559 for doing what he could with the resources he had when he was seventeen to 595 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,880 stop this. And also I think we have to point out the original business 596 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:53,639 deal that Dean offered was everybody wins, including the kid being brought to Dean, 597 00:48:54,159 --> 00:48:59,840 because the idea was that Dean was going to sell him into a trafficking 598 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,239 I had a sex trafficking network, a trafficking network where the boy would be 599 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,760 sent to California to become some rich person's pooh boy. Wayne would make some 600 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,079 money on the deal, Dean would make some money on the deal. The 601 00:49:13,199 --> 00:49:16,840 kid would be far better off over in California than he would be staying in 602 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,599 Houston Heights. So everybody wins. That was the original idea of this deal. 603 00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:27,440 So when Wayne finally succumbed and thought that doesn't really sound that bad and 604 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,320 I do need the money. That was how Coral leveraged him, because Coral 605 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,760 killed that kid and then said, now you're part of this. Was Wayne 606 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:43,760 able to steer his siblings away from this horrible lifestyle that he'd been drawn into 607 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,159 as much as he could. One of them did end up hanging out with 608 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:52,039 Dean, going to his house. His siblings resented him and thought, you're 609 00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:55,079 over there partying and having a great time and not sharing with us, and 610 00:49:55,199 --> 00:49:59,480 some of his friends thought the same thing. And what he was really trying 611 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:05,119 to do was prevent them from becoming Dean's victims, because Dean would say things 612 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,679 like, Oh, I saw your little brother the other day. He's real 613 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,559 cute, and you can imagine what that would be like because Wayne knows what's 614 00:50:12,599 --> 00:50:17,440 going to happen to anyone that Quarrel manages to get in there to tie up, 615 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,679 to torture and kill. My final question for you, guys is about 616 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,599 the title of the book itself. It's The Serial Killers Apprentice. What made 617 00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:34,800 you choose the word apprentice rather than accomplice or a victim or something other than 618 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,199 that? What made apprentice stick with you? I thought it had a strong 619 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:46,079 ring to it. Now, apprentices aren't always willingly apprenticed somebody. They're often 620 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,280 indentured, and they have to do this in order to pay off a debt 621 00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:57,280 or to make to learn a trade so they can make a livel with it. 622 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,079 But it's not something they necessarily want to do. They tend to live 623 00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:06,719 with the master, and the master makes all the decisions and whatnot. So 624 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:13,199 I think I thought apprentice actually was a fair description because in a way, 625 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:20,639 it's more an apprenticeship than it is an accomplice, because it is like he's 626 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,760 in this, he's being trained to play a certain role for the master, 627 00:51:25,639 --> 00:51:29,719 like it or not, he is learning to do it, and he is 628 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:36,119 doing it as part of Dean's ownership of him. So I thought apprentice was 629 00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:38,599 an appropriate way to look at this. And I did that because I wanted 630 00:51:39,079 --> 00:51:44,079 we tend to group all of all accomplices together as if they're all the same 631 00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:47,159 thing, and that one of the things I did was breakout categories of the 632 00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:52,119 different kinds of teams that we see. That was so helpful. Yeah, 633 00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:54,880 we see the coequals. You both want to be in this and you know, 634 00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:59,360 can't wait till the next victim. And I gave some examples of that, 635 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,920 like to Kurnoris. We see the foe accomplice, the one who, 636 00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:07,000 once they're caught, claims, oh, I was just the it wasn't my 637 00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:13,079 idea, and it really was, but they somehow pass themselves off as being 638 00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,639 the lesser of the two. Then we see the compliant accomplice, the reluctant 639 00:52:17,639 --> 00:52:24,840 accomplice who really is in a situation like Wayne and David Brooks work, so 640 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,679 they're in it, but they don't really this isn't really what they want to 641 00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:32,280 be doing. And then we see the forced accomplish like at gunpoint, you're 642 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,760 going to help me bury this body, and we have a few examples of 643 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,400 that. So they're in that compliant stage, and it's very important to distinguish 644 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:47,840 that from co the kind of team where they really are co equals in their 645 00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:53,159 deviant desires and their love of violence and sadism and things like that. So 646 00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:58,920 I wanted to make it clear. But even at that, the apprenticeship is 647 00:52:59,159 --> 00:53:04,400 different than some of the other accomplices. We have accomplices who are very they're 648 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,800 compliant, but they're in love, let's say, so they're afraid of losing 649 00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:13,360 the guy. Many of the male female teams are like that. That's different 650 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,239 than what we have for Wayne Henley. Even Wayne Henley is different from David 651 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,400 Brooks. So I thought the apprenticeship idea got at it a little bit more 652 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:28,199 clearly, this chilling idea of the syndicate. Here we are. We're having 653 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,760 this discussion with the four of us in April twenty twenty four. The book 654 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:37,760 looks back at a time and a place and tells us these very chilling stories 655 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:45,039 are things that different in twenty twenty four, they're worse. I'll let Tracy 656 00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:51,320 take this way far worse. They're just an extrapolation by one hundred times over 657 00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:57,719 because now instead of having to sneak in the back of a magazine, networks 658 00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:04,400 exist all over the place where they're trading photographs, where they're exploiting children. 659 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,559 I can't even begin to tell you my work with law enforcement and them explaining 660 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:15,320 some of the cases that they've had whereby biological children are used. Sometimes biological 661 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,639 children are made for this purpose. We look at this and we think, 662 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,920 not in my backyard. It literally is in our backyards. And I think 663 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,360 that it's good as a society to pay attention to what's going on around us, 664 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:35,800 and to understand the difference between something like a conspiracy theory like Pizzagate and 665 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,920 the actual machinations that it takes on in our communities, in our real lives, 666 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,960 so that we're able to look at more squarely in the face. I 667 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,960 think that we saw the same thing with Oh my goodness, the Boy Scouts. 668 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,960 I can't believe that this happened to such a storied organization, and you 669 00:54:54,000 --> 00:55:00,840 think to yourself that this was the perfect organization for pedophiles to infield. The 670 00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:07,280 Catholic Church had a perfect way of making their pedophiles disappear and recycle them. 671 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:13,360 When you look at our way of ignoring some of the troubling signs that are 672 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,079 coming at us, why not be aware, why not call it out, 673 00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:22,840 and why not be proactive in understanding how to protect our kids in our communities? 674 00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:27,159 Well, the book is The Serial Killers Apprentice, the true story of 675 00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:30,840 how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into a killing machine. Thank you both 676 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,719 so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. It is a fascinating 677 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,400 book, available wherever books are sold. On April sixteenth, Tracy Catherine, 678 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:44,000 thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm 679 00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:46,159 happy to be here again. That's going to do it for this episode. 680 00:55:46,440 --> 00:56:00,679 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Over Murder 681 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:06,880 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 682 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:12,239 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 683 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,360 theme music is by Kevin McCloud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 684 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:22,519 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 685 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,639 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 686 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,679 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 687 00:56:31,159 --> 00:56:35,239 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.