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You do Soccer is going to explode it and it's going to be around this kid. You're the Beatles. Everywhere we went it was the Freddie Show. And with that came the expectation, and with that came the pressure. New episodes of American Prodigy dropped Tuesdays from Blue Wire Podcasts. What is kracklacking? Harder Knox sisteners? I am Dan Favalley coming at you this time without my co host Adam Brammel. We are continuing on with our loaded podcasts, and I will say this one is mega loaded, so I won't waste any time. We're first speaking with Salmon Ali. He covers the Houston Rockets for ESPN ninety seven point five and also hosts the Red Nation Hoops podcast. Follow him on Twitter at Salmon Ali NBA. That's at sal m a n l a l I NBA. After we speak with him, we are going to talk with Tara Bowen Biggs about the Portland Trailblazers. She is a co host of the We Have a Take and Step Back Sisters podcast. Follow her on Twitter at tcb b i GG. Then after that we have a dual podcast with co hosts, both of them from the Timeline Pod, which is also hosted by Blue Wire. We have Mike V. Hill follow him on Twitter at protected pick spelled exactly as it sounds. And Sam Cooper at scoop r h Oops. We're talking all things Phoenix Suns leading into the regular season. As always, we are putting out a ton of content this pod in total. While there will be timestamps and I encourage you to jump around, it's running over four hours long. That's all I could say. But we're getting too James Harden trades with Salmon Ali. We're covering the Suns with Sam and Mike, and then we're talking all things Blazers with with Tara. This is going to be a fun one. Please subscribe to us download all of our episodes. That's why we're putting out so much content. Wherever you're getting your podcast, it helps us whether or not you're using iTunes, though, please head over there search Hardwood Knox. Throw us a five star rating, write a review, even if it's constructives criticism. We also appreciate that I will not delay you any further, though we are going too once again begain Salmon Ali to propose many many James Harden trades that it's on too Tara Bow and Biggs, we will talk all things Blazers, and after that with Sam Cooper and Mike Vee Hill we're talking everything and anything Phoenix Suns. Salomon, Welcome back to the Hardware Knox Podcast. I think it's your third or fourth appearance here of the off season, and I think I've been on your podcast two or three times. I don't know why. It's not like there's been anything to talk about with with the Rockets, But how are you this boring? Like just like like box of vanilla ice cream like team, like nothing ever happens. They're basically the Spurs, Like just nothing fun and it happens that. Yeah, they don't make trades, they don't they don't go after free agents, they nothing, no drama happens within the organization. They're just boring, very stable organization. How are you doing tonight since we last spoke, which I think was less than twenty four hours ago, as at this moment, I guess I'm doing all right. It's just's a lot to keep your eyes on, right with this team, like whenever you cover a team like this, like we're just so many and so feel like like we started. I mean, I guess we can talk about the prior podcast like we were talking about for the Rockets, like who they would sign for the taxpayer m l E. Like that, like that that's the kind of stuff we were talking about, or would they even use it? Yeah? Right, and they start the offseason. Mike D'Antoni goes down, Terrel Morey goes down, Russell Westbrook goes down, and now James Harden might go down like that. That's how far we've come this offseason. And look, James Harden did show up. That's so if you you should listen to the Red Nation Hoops podcast. I plugged it in the intro that you all just heard, but go check it out. We just recorded one on the John Wall Fit with west with Harden. If he plays without Harden, should they move him? So we broke that all down. We did talk about the James Harden situation a lot as of that moment, though, and that's where where we will pick this up. He had not reported to the Rockets, and then on Tuesday he did report to the Rockets got tested for COVID. So he's in Houston now we are. We have ascertained that he wasn't in Vegas or at least I guess maybe he could have jet set again, who knows at this point, but as of right now, we believe that James Harden is in Houston, still wants out of Houston, but he is in fact in Houston. That's where we're at right Simon. Yeah, he's in Houston. He's taking his first COVID tests. To my knowledge, he's come back negative, but we you know who, God knows. I mean, he's been out in Las Vegas and Atlanta without a mask, so he needs I think I believe he needs three negative COVID tests before he's able to be with the team or ten days away from the team. So I'm guessing the Rockets are hoping that he gets three negative tests back to back to back. He's probably gonna miss the first preseason game against Chicago, so the Rockets are hoping to get him back for that second preseason game and we'll see if he's engaged with the team at that point. Can you hear me? Oh sorry, I was on mute. Can you hear me now? Yeah? Awesome. So it would be par for the course of this whole situation if he gets two negative tests back, then then like a positive and then he tests negative again, but then he like leaves the market to go hang out somewhere and this whole thing just starts all over again. That would be part of the course of what's happened so far. I mean, like my question is, like, why hasn't the league saying anything like this guy was out in two different cities. Well, like, I think the protocol was that everybody had to be in camp by the twenty eighth rade that their home city by November twenty eighth, and they had to stay there for a week before they started training camp. Then they had to have individual workouts and stuff. And he's just skirting by all these rules. Like no one's even giving him a slap on the wrist at all. He's just getting a beating from the media. That's it. No one else has really cared. So the way I read it, and then if they had a specific date where like you had to be there and not just expected, but the way I read it was that while you were in your home market, you couldn't go to clubs or all these places. And so if Harden's louphole was well, then I'm just gonna go to Atlanta and Vegas because it's outside of the Houston market. And that's how he's like flying under the punishment. I don't I don't know, maybe the league doesn't want to intervene because it doesn't know what to do because anything it does do is gonna be like just add fuel to the fire and maybe make this look very heavy handed, right right, So, but if you want to listen to, like the more nuanced breakdown everything that's happening, go listen to that Red Nation Hoops podcast. We are just here because I came up, as I told you, with fourteen James Harden trade packages across twelve teams, and we want to make this clearer. Salmon's gonna shoot them down, say what needs maybe more needs to be added to them, But I personally and Salmon personally, we don't endorse these. These are just the ones that I came up with. I tried to find teams that I could talk myself into trading for James Harden and giving up like close to what Houston's asking prices. I'm not assuming that they're gonna get lowballed and bite the you know, the metaphorical bullet on a James Harden trade. So that's how this was done. And I think the best place to start is actually in Philly because it seems like the bar is going to be Can any teams give the Rockets an offer that would beat an offer down the line from Philly that includes Joel Embiat or Ben Simmons to me, because that's why you would wait if you're Houston, I wouldn't want to drag this out. I said on your podcast, I thought my gut said he had played his last game for the Rockets. I think that's probably overwhelmingly going to be wrong now unless this podcast, like our other five this past offseason, gets blown up momentarily. So if you wait, if you're Houston, you wait to see if the Sixers are willing to give up one of those two stars, or if a team can come in and actually beat or at least rival what a package with Joel Embiat or Ben Simmons would be. Do you think that's like a fair line of thinking to approach this with right, And I think the Sixers want to see what they look like this season. Would just Ben Simmons, Joel embiad in space. I think that's been Morey's whole talking point this entire offseason. And it makes sense, right, Like they were really good like two years ago when they had a normal functioning roster, and now they're they're you know, they spent the past two years with like a very crammed paint, no shooting whatsoever except for JJ Reddick a couple of years ago. They haven't really had you know, significant space for these guys to operate. And now they have a normal, like good fitting roster, and I think they want to see what the ceiling is with this team. This is a very important like year four for Mbeed and Simmons, Like year four, I think it's always a pivotal year when you're talking about like young superstar pairings, Like I remember year four for Bradley Beale and John Wall being pretty pivotal, and like we were like wondering whether or not that was gonna be a year they thought about whether or not they should go forward with this core break it up. And I think that's gonna be something, you know, the Sixers talk about this season, like what can the what can the ceiling be for this Sixers team? Can they get to that high fifties, you know, win threshold where you're really talking about them as a title contender or are they still gonna be like like high forties, low fifties. And if that's the case, you have to probably move for you probably have to move forward and try to improve on that core and by flipping one of these guys. And the other reason why you want to wait is Walt Harden is better than both of them. The separation is like I would say, Ben Simmons is no worse than the twentieth best player in the league right now. I'd probably have him in the top fifteen, and then Joel Embiad is probably somewhere like top twelve. If you could count on him being healthy, maybe he's top eight. So like you're the difference between like Harden, Yes, he's a top three player, and there's a huge difference still between that. But like you have these guys, they're both top fifteen, top twenty guys. Joel embiat is only twenty six with three guarantee years left on his contract, no options. Ben Simmons twenty four, five years left on his contract. I don't believe he is a player option. So Harden is thirty one, correct, I think he's thirty one. He's not thirty two, is he. Yeah, he's thirty one. Yeah. So he has two years and a player option left on his deal, and the expectation is he's gonna opt out after that or you're gonna need to extend him. So there's a risk involved in getting him, even though he's the better player. But that also makes like, let's say, so we're fast forwarding and saying it's not working where it's not working as well as Philly would like, and so they're deciding they're going to trade for James Harden. If I'm Philly, so I'm gonna start here, I would prefer to trade Joell Eenbiad. He's older, he might be the better player right now. I know Ben Simmons in theory needs to be more ball dominant, but like Joell Embiad is not the most like efficient pick and pop option or even rollman, so like you still need to give him his post ups or his face ups. I think Simmons might be better suited to be the role man next to Harden. And so one, do you agree with that logic? And two, if the sixers and the framework I have for each of these deals is Joel Embie or Ben Simmons and Mike Scott, like that makes the money work. But if it's Embide that's going to Houston, one is Houston even interested in matters that every Ben Simmons or bust. And then the third part of that question is obviously what else needs to be attached to the Embid Mike Scott framework for Houston to bite. So I've been perusing NBA Twitter just to see what other people think about this kind of trade, right, And I've been seeing this a lot, right, like, just like Mbiad should be the guy that that gets flipped, and I just I like Houston would be doing front flips if they can land and be, Like I think the difference between Embiad and Simmons right now just from what they've seen from them, Like I have confidence that Embiad can someday be the best player at championship team, maybe not now but later, And I don't have that same confidence from Ben Simmons yet, Like I think Ben Simmons has a ceiling for a top fifteen guy. I don't think, like Joel Embiad can be that guy. And I actually believe the fit with Harden and Embiid is a little cleaner than Simmons and Embat than Simmons and Harden. And it's one of those things where like I think, like when you have Himbad, you just have to surround him with floor spacing as much as you possibly can. And I think, you know what that team is really missing is they just need a perimeter guard that can score and be a playmaker and be a you know, be really dynamic on the perimeter. And that's what they hoped, folks was going to be. Right like that, that's the whole theory and drafting folks. And I don't blame them at all for trading for faults. I thought that was the right decision at the time. It just blew up in their face. It happens, right, ye. And I think I think if I were them, like, if if I get another good, you know, season of good health from EMBID, I think I feel pretty confident moving Simmons. I think that's the big the big thing though, I think I think if if you're Philadelphia, like if you get like a you know, sixty games season from EMBIID a fifty game season from EMBIED, like, yeah, maybe you decide we want to keep Simmons, Like screw that, Like we're just gonna roll with Harden as our best player and Simmons as our number two guy, which makes sense, but you know, it's it's it's a risk because I think you and I agree, like Embat's probably the better player, and we both probably view him as being the better player moving forward. I see, I think Simmons has a chance to usurp him, but that there's Embeed is better just I mean, you look at what he's able to do on defense, you couple that with his playmaking embiid. Look, I know the Sixers don't play this way, but he is only ranked better than the thirtieth percentile in rollman points scored per possession once in his career. So I think there's like issues. They're not going to run pick and roll at all if they get hard. I think it's gonna be like straight up like ISO from both both of those guys. It's gonna be pick. It's gonna be hard and isolating on their wing and post ups. For Embiad, it's gonna be a really ugly offense. But I think it can be really damn efficient because both of those guys are really efficient in those roles. See, and I'm trying to look at it as like if you were trying to build out, like to do more stuff than just isolation. I like the idea of like having Ben Simmons. I feel like he long term could be the better role man. But I get what you're saying, Like Embid averaged one point one points per post up possession, which is like, actually pretty good offensively in general, not just for post ups. So I think there's an argument to be made each way. So let's start with Embiad. Then if you're the rockets aside from Embiad and the filler, which I'm using is Scott, what do you need in this deal to do it? So I think if you're in Philadelphia, you have all the leverage here, right, and so you use that leverage to be like, no, we're not trading you this godfather offer of picks. We're gonna give you like a protected first round pick in the next couple of years, not one like four or five years from now, and we're gonna give you like a swap the next the following season. We're not gonna give you, you know, like four picks, and two of those are swaps and they're like four years out, Like we're not doing that. We're like, we're not gonna give you the Brooklyn off. Sorry, like we were already giving you Simmons. We're already giving you your foundational piece. You guys have to figure out how how to fill out the roster around him. You guys have to figure out how to do the team building. That's not that's not on us to do that for you. Right, We're like, this is a pretty fair trade that that we're giving you. You're you're you're not getting any player better than Simmons on the market. We're gonna we're gonna stand pat here. That's what I would do for our Philly, and I think they'd probably get away with that. Well, I think they would too. So you're on Simmons. So you're if you have to me, if it's Philly's already traded away, it's twenty twenty five first to Oklahoma City and the al Horf for trade. So if it's a twenty twenty three first round pick, let's say top seven protection and then a twenty twenty four swap plus Simmons and Mike Scott is Houston doing that, that's enough. That's enough because again, like you're already getting the foundational pieces there. You have the picks coming in and you know, like they're probably not gonna be like that pick is going to convey, right, like, if you're getting James Harden, that pick is gonna convey and and well unless he leaves in free agency, because that would be the twenty twenty three draft to be the first draft in which you wouldn't have had Harden in the preceding season should he leave. So I think I think you probably do this deal with the idea that Harden's probably gonna say And yeah, I mean that would be the already even interrupted, that would be no team is making any of the deals that we're about to propose unless they have a feel that James Harden is going to be there for longer than two years. Yeah, And I think Phil I do if you can confidently say that. And I mean because I mean this report that came out today that he has added Philadelphia to his prefer destinations list. I'm love the mind. It was probably always on there, like once he saw Darryl Moore going there, but was he was probably trying to see if you get force the way in Brooklyn first, what happens if it's Embead then going instead of Simmons. So I think it beat is better, right, So, and I think I think it's easy to build. I mean, for me, like I can see a team built around inbiad winning a championship. It's it's just after that, it's on heart. It's on Houston to play the free game, and you know, open up cap space, like a couple of years from now when John Wallace contract expires and get that second star right, or maybe even trade John wallfer an expiring you know, use your picks that you just got this summer, flip those for an expiring contract for the freegency game next summer and try to pair and beat with the Star right. And if I'm Houston at that point, I'm asking for less protections on that pick. You know, maybe it's instead of top seven protected, its top four protected, right, like you're not because you're getting you're getting the the Yes, it's the better asset, but it's not the safer asset. Like Simmons is the safer asset because he does not have as extensive an AD injury history. Then he doesn't have as extensive adv injury history as MBA. He has won its extensive. So if I were Houston, I would do twenty twenty three top three protected, twenty twenty four, swap EMBIID and filler like the squat. I'm just gonna say, Mike Scott, maybe there's more in there because Philly wants It's like, yeah, I would do that if I was Philly. Now on the Simmons front, I am not. I'm probably wanting top ten protection on twenty twenty three, and I don't know if I'm giving the option of a swap and if I am, I want lottery protection on that because Simmons is under contract now for five years and he's so damn young. Like I would even start out like, hey, we're gonna give you you want you want with Tea Sieball and Ben Simmons and Mike Scott, like that's where you're getting. And if it gets to that point, like let's say it's even heavier protected, let's say it's a heavier protected first plus Simmons and then maybe a swap in twenty twenty four. Is Houston saying no to that or are they still accepting net? Sorry? Can you repeat the swaps in the protections again? So I'm gonna say, let's say top ten protection in twenty twenty three twenty four, swap Ben Simmons and my Scott, Like if I'm Philly, that would be my top out offer twenty twenty has already reshaped how we work and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenged to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical. Well. Indeed is here to help. Unlike other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need. You can pause your account at any time, and there are no long term contracts. And now Indeed's new way of matching you with candidates instantly delivers a shortlist of quality candidates whose resumes on indeed matching your job criteria, that you can contact the moment you sponsor a job making Indeed the only job site that can move as fast as you do. 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And I wonder if like the the you know, the language on that pick is like, oh, if it doesn't convey it's gonna the next year will be twenty twenty four and top you know, lottery protected or and then the next year after that it's gonna be you know, the second round picks. Like I guess we can talk about that now, Like do you think that do you think it goes farther than that? It can't because of their twenty twenty five commitment to Oklahoma City, So like that would be the risk on Houston's part, so you would need So you're saying twenty twenty two unprotected and then a twenty twenty four swap is what you would ask for In the Ben Simmons situation, Well, I you know you asked. I think I think you have to settle for protections whatever, because like you're not going to get a pick that's not protected on Houston's front. I just I don't think Philly, Philly does that so personally, I mean, I guess you could be concerned about Embiad's injury history and what would hard to do alone. I would be willing to if it allowed the Sixers to keep their twenty twenty three pick and you could do you know, if I could do Joel Embid or even just Ben Simmons, then an unprotected twenty twenty two pick for James Harden and then again plus the salary to make it work. I would actually absolutely do that if I was Philly, and this is this is Embid right or Simmons like, if you're talking your money Simmons, Okay, So I think because from Philly's standpoint, you know you're going to have James Harden through the twenty twenty one twenty twenty two season, and so there's less of a risk of giving up that unprotected pick that year. So this theoretically, are you proposing this with the idea with the knowledge we know now, or like this is a season from now when you realize they're not good enough, right, or that you need to change this core up. I'm viewing everything through this season's lens, like whether it happens tomorrow or and I guess if it's happening in the middle of the year, Phillies decided they're not good enough. Maybe that gets Houston a little leverage, but I don't know how much, because like when you look at the contracts and age of these guys, I really do think it benefits Philly no matter what. Yeah, And I think I think that that's where I'm at if I'm Houston, Like if I'm if I'm not getting the picks that I want or if I'm not getting the language and the picks that I want, I'm probably waiting a little longer because I think the deal is always going to be there. I really do. I mean, I guess it really depends on whether or not you believe that Simmons and embiad is a good fitting core that win a championship together. And I'm still, you know, I don't know, like like I think one of those two guys can be, you know, a core part of a championship team. I think you and I agree on that. I'm not sure if together, you know, just two non shooting pieces anymore. Like I don't think like that's why the Rockets did microball last year, right, because they couldn't have Capella and Westbrook on the flour anymore. I think in the modern NBA you need four shooters on the four period, point blank. And I think I think it's very hard to build a team if you your two star players can't shoot. And so I think if I'm Houston with that knowledge, I think my offer will get better if I'm waiting, and I think those picks or I can get the protections I want on those picks and the language I want and the year that I want if I wheel a little bit. Yeah, I think it probably helps them that Philly already traded its twenty twenty five pick, because Houston can't trade for an imminent pick with the possibility of it turning into seconds in twenty twenty four. Just because Houston has Philly has the obligation to okay see and so that makes it more likely that whatever pick they get is unprotected because Philly needs to make sure that it conveys by twenty twenty three because of that commitment to okayc in twenty twenty five. Yeah, yeah, I mean so like overall, like I like the framework for this trade, Like I think, I think what we're talking about semantics at this point when we're talking about picking a swap plus one of those players, basically right, Yeah, But like I think this, uh, the framework of this trade is pretty acceptable, acceptable on both ends. I think both teams probably do this. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at bet online. That Online is going the extra mile to make sure you can get in on every possible chance to win this season, from game spreads and totals to team player and coaching props. 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Yeah, so I'm glad you include these all unprotected because it was all like when people talked about this trade, right and like they made it seem like it like their Houston was going to do this trade for for dim Witty and Lavert, And that's not what this trade was about. It was always going to be about the picks, right like, like these guys aren't the fundamental pieces of a championship corps, Like I mean, like they're not gonna be Like I don't know, it really depends on how you feel about Carris Lavert. I I don't think he can be like the one of the two best players on jip team, right, Like, I think he's a nice player. I like him a lot. He shot like fifty percent true shooting last year. Like he's he's nice, he's a good player. I don't think he's like, you know, I don't think I don't think he's a building black piece. Yeah, I think so. If there's some similarities with the way the Pelicans handle the Lakers stuff where they got there would be like one cornerstone option, which was brandon Ingram to me, and then it would be Caroslavert in this situation. But that that's probably more of a stretch. And then you have some intriguing young guys like in Josh Hart and Lonzo Ball, but you're about to and I think Lonzo Ball is more intriguing than Jared Allen. But these younger guys are all nearing pay days and like Spencer did when he's older, but he's a player option for next season. And so what you're doing is you're betting on the predominantly let's say the one player here, which is Caros Lavert, because he's under contract for a while, and in brandon Ingram's case, he was gonna be restricted. YadA, YadA, YadA. And then you're betting against the good the team's future, that you're trading a superstar too, And that's what you're effectively doing here. For Houston, I think it's Caros Lavert and you want those picks. And what's intriguing to me about this framework if I'm Houston insofar as I'm willing to deal him, or I like Caros Lavert, who I think he's a really good passer, and the fact that he shoots so well and off the dribble threes. His true shooting percentage might be lower, but all the dribble threes are like v shot right now to help build around an offense. His fit with John Wall though, could be questionable, just like it's questionable with Kyrie and Katie because he needs to play off the ball. But I think he's on a good contract and a good player. But he's at that weird age twenty six where he's like not young, but he's not old. But you're betting on those picks. And the first of which here conveys when technically Kevin Durant, after Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, and James Harden all have their player options because they have those if I'm not mistaken, they're all twenty twenty two. They're all twenty twenty two player options, and so if like theoretically if they lose one of them or two of them, or if Kevin Durant's a shell of himself, like you're in a position to where now you have this unprotected pick where perhaps Brooklyn has lost one or more of its big three, and yeah, so like no, so like like what I was gonna say, is I understood what you were doing when you started with twenty twenty three. I still think if I'm Houston, like listen, you're not giving me any like foundational piece upfront, like straight up like none none of these three guys I view as foundational pieces. So I want those picks to even be farther out. If I'm Houston, I asked for twenty twenty four and beyond, or even if I've no doubt this, like I doubt I haven't, like even twenty twenty five, if you could get it right, like I think I think you start like, if you're Houston, you ask for those picks to be as far out as humanly possible as you can possibly make it go with Shawn Marks, right, and I think I think that's because that's the that's the offer, like that that's this whole trade is not centered around Spencer Dinwoody. It's centered around these picks. So if I'm Houston, I'm trading you one of the thirty greatest players of all time, h in his prime, uh, you know, a walking fifty win season, and James Harden. I want like a good healthy sum of picks back. So all right, so let's play this game. If they move it to if they start it in twenty twenty four with a swap and they're willing to do a twenty twenty seven unprotected pick, and now you've lost that twenty twenty three first, does that make the offer a lot more intriguing to you or is it still Hey, we'd rather just wait and see what happens with Philly. Yeah, so like, if Philly's on the tample, I'm taking that Philly offer anyway. But let's just say, like, oh, go ahead, I'm sorry, No, I'm sorry. We're like in like a vacuum. Like what we're talking about is like, you know, four picks, two of them being swaps, to him being unprotected, like in a vacuum that's an acceptable offer if those picks are far out I think and surrounded by these three players, Like I think it's gonna because I think these players are gonna be you know, pressed eat into the sun. Like what I mean by that is they're gonna be traded for first round picks as well. So these like Spencer Dimwoody, you could you know, buy default call them a first round pick because Houston's gonna trade him in the following trade deadline, like straight up, like he's not going The Rockets are not going to let his contract expire. The Rockets are gonna trade to It's a bit Dimwoody the following the following trade deadline if they do this deal, right, I mean sorry, oh no, I agree with you. I'm sorry, keep going. No. So, like if I'm Houston, like I like I with all that in mind, I just I think you would wait and see if Philly is interested and putting you know, Simons or and beat on the table. But if if they aren't, this is an acceptable offer in a vacuum. But we're not in a vacuum, right, you have to consider all these other offers, But this is an acceptable offer as long as it as long as that trade is starting in twenty twenty four, not twenty twenty three. So are you talking is there anything Brooklyn can do, Like let's say Philly stances, We're not dealing any one of them now. If we do, it will be at the beginning of March or closure towards the trade deadline, when we have a better idea of what our team is. Is there anything that Nets can actually do to make a trade go through before then? Probably not? So Like even if they were just like let's say the framework I have right now, it's twenty twenty three. It starts there, but they're also willing to include that twenty twenty seven pick. So now you've ended up with five first, three first and two swaps? Are you doing that? Maybe? I mean, I don't know like that, that's pretty far out what you're talking about twenty twenty seven pick. I mean, they might be a legitimate, like top ten in the lottery team by that point. And you know, I've no idea how far throughout these front office to scout. I don't I don't know how how good that draft classes. But generally, if you're getting a top ten pick back and a star trade, that's good. I don't know, Like I think I still wait on Philly just because, like I know, like Simmons is such a known quantity, like like you know what you what you point about, what you pointed out earlier when we're talking about the Sixers, and like him being still so young and still such a known quality quantity, Like I think that was a good point, and I think that's what makes him the most tantalizing trade piece. I think I still would wait till March. And I also like on Houston's end, I want to see how this team looks, and I want to know if there's a five percent chance I can keep James hard that's a good that is part of the calculus. You are, right, Yeah, so I and I think I think I think at that point, if you start the season off pretty well, like your leverage goes up. So I don't think there's anything Brooklyn can do the top the Sixers if the Sixers aren't throwing in, uh, you know, anything anything other than just picks, Like I think, I think at that point, you're just waiting go through Houston. Yeah, and there's nothing else the next can do beyond including that twenty twenty seven pick. Like that would be the like they include that, like that's what you can do, And I think what you could do. In Houston's part, I'd actually probably do it if I'm Houston, to be honest with you, just to bank it just just because you know it's a good offer. You just want to bank it in. If they include twenty twenty three and twenty twenty seven, I do it in a heartbeat, just because I think there's a chance this goes bust, like in some form by twenty twenty three, Like I don't think you need to go that far out, So that's why I would do it. I do get the argument, though, if you're Houston, you want to see if you can convince Harden to stay and and if Phillies string you along, I think you could take the stance of, well, if this brooken offer is here now, why won't it be there in March? Because what are the odds that they've outperformed expectations so much that they're not willing to make the deal. Yeah, and you're and you're talking about by the way, you're talking about controlling any of these deals, controlling a team's draft, like for four or five years. That's insane, like chances are, what are those picks are gonna be lotteries lottery picks regardless, like it just unless you're the Spurs, like like one of those picks are gonna be lottery picks. Uh. And it's like I think that that that's what makes this offers attempting, is because like you're you're guaranteed at least one lottery pick in any of those picks, probably twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six. I think Katie is still gonna be pretty good in twenty twenty three if they can retain him. But I mean that's a pretty good starting point. And I but that's all it is, if I'm using at a starting point. And I think I think this offer has probably already been pitched without you know, picks so far out, like I think they like they've already pitched dim Woody and Lavert. I'm sure, I'm sure those guys have already been pitched along with one pick. I mean they need Alan Dinwoody, I mean, Tori and Prince could be thrown in help to make the money work. But like this deal Alan Dinwoody, Cruz and Lavert, like it just barely makes the money work for Brooklyn, So like that Harden makes so much That's the other part of this is like like you have to include a lot of players functionally because Harden makes so much money, right, and so like I can't imagine that. I don't know that Houston's really interested in Jared Allen, but like you want him in this deal just because he's and that's another pick, another first pick, another first round pick. So it's like Dinwoody, Allen, and Lavert has been pitched. Maybe the fourth player is Prince as opposed to Cruise, but like, like the framework of this deal has been pitched, Like we just know that for a fact. Yeah, sure, And I think the only thing like that hasn't been pitched is I don't think what the Nets are offering is on protect. I think that they've definitely tried to play slick and protect these picks just so they can have the leverage later on to protect them and just up their offer. And that's Look, that's the risk Houston runs too, is that the offers could theoretically get worse if they don't play well and Harden becomes this malcontent and more of a distraction. There's risk on both sides. I think I don't think there's much more harm in them waiting, to be honest with you, but there is risk. Well, look, if you're training him in March, it's a year and a half of James Harden, it's a season and a half of James Harden as opposed to two seasons, and that certainly matters for some teams. Maybe that doesn't matter because we don't know how many teams are gonna come to the table, but like, there could be other teams that are just like, you know what, we're going to take this first round pick from twenty twenty seven or twenty twenty six off the table because you waited too long or you guys are worse off and Harden's like wants out anyway, so they do run the risk. But I think for the most part, if Philly's stringing you along where you know that Simmons are embid would be an option, potentially it's most likely worth waiting, which is why I won As we move forward, I'm really hoping to fuck you up, like I want you to just be mind blown in some form. But I think all these I'm looking at all these offers as Houston is considering them because they think that Philly's out of the question. So if you want to measure it against the Nets offer, I think it's probably the best way to do it. I don't think any of them, you know, I see one, maybe two that might potentially be better then like Philly's offer, but it's just because Simmons and Ebide are such known commodities. It's tough to beat that. So I think if you're moving him elsewhere, it's because you don't think that Philly is an option. Yeah, you're right, And I think, like, let me ask you a question, by the way, so like if you're the Sixers or if you're the Nets, are you trade for James Harden? If any of these two teams trade for James Harden, are they immediately favorites in the Eastern Conference to win to win the East? Like I feel like they are one of these. I don't know about Brooklyn. I just Kevin Durants come back from an achilles injury. I need to see it, like, and I'm not even trying to I want to see their defense too, for sure. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a look after after this theoretical trade for the Nets, like there's a chance that Brooklyn's best defender aside from Bruce Brown is Kevin Durant, which is probably an issue. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess you can have you know, DeAndre Jordan, you know, defensive Player of the Year Doc Rivers. DeAndre Jordan be a river enough to start over Jared Allen apparently too. Yeah, right, well, what a decision. What a decision by the Nets. They decide they basically parted ways with Kenny Atkinson because of that. I guess that's wild. Yeah, I think there's definitely other stuff, Like it feels like that was the like that was just the defining point where it's like he was starting Jared Allen and then DeAndre Jordan's in the starting line up the first game after Kenny Atkinson leaves. That's not a coincidence. Yeah, and and and you know, fundamentally, the reason we're talking about it, James Harden Trey right now is because the Stars have so much power in the league. This is also another example of that, right, Like they can just fire her coaches now, like that that's just the thing they can do. Like, no, we don't we want Steve Nash instead, we we don't want we don't want Kenny Atkinson making his own personnel decisions. That's just a wild place we're at in the NBA. Yeah, and it's look, I think people try like champion player empowerment, which for the most part is fine, but player empowerment really applies to maybe fifteen players in the league. Like that's the thing. Like when it comes to contract links, like, yeah, Marcus Morris can sign a one year deal if he wants to for a balloon payment like he did last season, but probably more like seven. And Katie's definitely one of those seven. Yeah, I mean, well clearly so I just looking at with it and a Kyrie they apparently consider one of those seven. That's why I said ten, because I don't think he's one of the seven best players and maybe impaired with Durant, it's different obviously, So are you ready to journey off the beaten path? Here? Let's do it. The next team up is Boston, and I think I start out by saying like they're not getting Jason Tatum because I think the whole point you do this if your Boston is to pair him with Jayson Tatum. It's like why Brooklyn probably doesn't dangle Kyrie Irving and talks for James harden Right, I agree, the offer would be Jalen Brown, Marcus Smart, Carson Edwards end or Grant Williams, a twenty twenty four first round pick, a twenty twenty five first round swap, a twenty twenty six first round pick unprotected, and at twenty twenty seven first round swap unprotected. Yeah. So like, if if this whole Boston thing works the way they wanted to, the only good pick here could be probably twenty twenty seven. And like, I think the Brooklyn offered tops this unless they're throwing in Jalen Brown, which I'm not sure if you have that in this document, Like if they have, if they throw in Jalen Brown, you're in the conversation. Yeah, that's what it's Jalen Brown, Smart, Edwards or Grant Williams and then four picks, the two unprotected in twenty four and twenty six, and then two swaps twenty five and twenty seven. And I think the reason this is one of those situations where I'm sure teams would haggle over protections on maybe the swap in twenty twenty seven, but because Tatum's so young, and Boston projects to still be so good by then you can probably get them to Maybe it's only like top three protection, or maybe it's just I have it as unprotected here, and so yeah, if you're throwing in Brown, you you might even be able to cut off a first round pick here. It might two three, It might just be like two first round picks in a swap, like I think that might be. Like, because I like Brown a lot, like, I think he could be, you know, maybe second third best player ONUND championship team at his peak. I'm not sure if he's there yet at all, but I but I really like him, and I think he's he's a nice player to surround a trade around. And I don't think he's you know, foundational player yet, but you know, I think I think he gets you in the conversation. He gets your foot in the door. I think I probably liked this as much as I like the Brooken offer. I'm not sure what you think about that, because we're fundamentally we're gonna compare all these trades to the Brooklyn offer, right, because that's the floor, right, And uh, I think I probably like this about as much as I like the Brooken offer. You like it, I just cut off the twenty twenty seven swap at your what you said, like, you could probably cut something off, So it would be you probably cut off early, right if you're Houston, that's where you would haggle over, you, you'd hagle over. We don't want that for twenty twenty four pick. We want the twenties twenty seven. Yeah, I'm thinking, like, you have leverage that you can if you're Boston, you have leverage. You don't have to throw on four picks. So you you're saying, yeah, I guess the sticking point would be. Let's say, so let's say you end up at two picks and a swap. If you're Houston, you want twenty twenty five and twenty twenty seven picks with a twenty twenty six swap, but they don't have. I think what the problem is, they don't have their twenty twenty six pick. Correct, So I think that's why I built it like this. I'll look really quick just to confirm, because we're all over the place here. They do not have their twenty twenty six. First, it's protected top four. But like, you can't broker a swap like that, so you would have to take the twenty twenty four pick, twenty twenty six pick, and then the twenty twenty five swap. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, you're right, And I still think I think I like this better than the Brooklyn offer, still with the two picks in a swap, because you're getting Jillen Brown. I think Jillen Brown is really good. And he's what he does is he's pluggin play like fringe stardom, Like he could be an All Star. Probably not in the West, but he could be. And he's proven that he can score bulk of his points within the flow of the offense and handle some really tough defensive assignments and so plug and play stardom. It's not the same as mega stardom, but I think it still really matters. Yeah, And I also think, like, you know, we're gonna see a lot of Jaylen Brown this year. And I think, you know, this entire offseason for Boston has been around Gordon Hayward, right, and the loss of Gordon Hayward. And I actually think there are two star players or like they're you know, you know, there their core scores, you know, you know, they just have more oxygen to do more things offensively, and I want to see how Brown benefits from that. I want to see how he does with an increased workload offensively. Uh, you know, Tatum is obviously gonna get his, but I I just I want to see what. I want to see how Brown does in that role because he's gonna need him to run pick and roll without Gordon Hayward there for sure, and with Kemba injured to start the year as well. Right, because if he products, she does really good in that role. I mean, like your offer gets better, right, And I again I will. I'm actually curious if like Boston is interested in James Harden. I think they should be, but I wonder if they if they are, see, I don't think I wouldn't necessarily endure. I'd be okay if that's the move, this is the move that they made where we settled. I don't know that you have to think about it because like James Harden, is that good? And look, but the problems is, like you've paid Kemba, you've paid Tam Like that's a lot of money committed to three guys. The flip side of that is if you have hardened and for some reason Kemba goes belly up for the last two years of his deal, Like it doesn't hurt you that much because you have James Harden. You're gonna feel it more if it's Jalen Brown and Marcus Smart there instead of James Harden. And again like like and we're gonna talk about this, I guess when we get to like Denver, Like is Denver on this list? No, So I was just gonna mention them as like I don't think just because Joki has the ball so much, like that's just one of the teams where I don't think it makes sense to give up Murray, Michael Porter Junior and a bunch of picks for James Harden. That would be the deal. It'd be Murray another salary, Michael Porter Junior in a bunch of picks. I don't think. I don't think they throw in Michael Porter Junior at all if they're throwing in Murray, like it's it's one of the other man, Like you can't have both again, like Houston is such in such a crappy spot, they can't demand two young aspects of that, Like if they do, we're talking that, we're talking about this trade as a steal, and I don't think they're I don't think right now they're in a position to get a steal. They're probably in a position to get fair value, like a decent Hall. But just because of Harden's age and just because of the mess he's causing right now, I don't think they can get two star prospects out of a trade. So I and then it has to be Murray just because of the money. It's I don't know, like you would have to get all sorts of weird if you're going with Michael Porter Junior's opposed to Murray because that's a twenty five million dollars salary difference. And listen, man, like you know me, Like we had this podcast. You were on my podcast last time, and I talked about like I would just get crazy if I compare Yo Kits with Harden for the next two years. Like you're like, but the reason, like right now we're talking about the Western Conference as like the Clippers and Lakers, and though now gets just made the Western Conference last year, right like we're not talking about them as seriously as we need to because we know, like fundamentally they probably have a ceiling with this score because they just don't have like a strong enough you know. Like second, like I like Jamal Murray a lott. I loved what he did in the playoffs this year. I'm not sure if he's like a superstar superstar player. I know for sure Harden is that guy. And I know for sure if you can pair Harden with Yoki, you get to the top of the Western Conference, like you're you're right there with the Lakers. I like, I like the Nuggets a lot more if they do that trade. So if so, then if you're Denver and you're making this trade, you know before ja Michael Green can be moved and stuff like that, you're it's basically Gary, Gary Harris, Will Barton, Michael Porter Jr. And then I would say two two picks and two swaps for James Harden. Yeah, I mean I I think if you're throwing in Murray, like yeah, yeah, it's fair. Well that was with Porter. If it's Murray, you're probably looking at Murray and like who else are you Murray? And like is it Murray and Barton? And then two picks and two swaps? Like does that get it done? You do not need to throw in that many picks you do not you're giving them Murray, right, Like, Like Murray Murray is probably the only other player on here that has shown like Simmons potential, right, Like, He's probably not as good as Simmons at his peak, as Simmons is just so damn good defensively, but he he gets to that fifteen level pretty regularly. So then the framework then that we would land on for Denver is you're either moving Porter, Harris and Barton because that's what the money would dictate, and then then those picks and then and then with Murray, it's less picks, right, two picks and a swap as opposed to two picks and two swaps, right, and maybe maybe even less than that, maybe even two picks or that were like like you know, one two unprotected picks instead of like one two picks in one spot. Like maybe you can get like that crazy because I again, like if you if you throw on a Star prospect, you're just with all these thrades, you just don't have to throw in as many picks. Yeah, Like that makes sense. While I get it, for Denver, I probably prefer to give up Porter Junior just because Murray's so I'm Porter Junior's good off the ball too, It's just that hardened we don't know, like Yogis needs the ball to some extent, even though he can play off it as well. And like we just haven't seen hard and play off the ball basically at all since arriving in Houston, and so it seems like more of a risk for them than a lot of these other teams. That's fair. Like I'm the talent guy, right, Like, I'm like, talent, talent, talent, figure it out later like that. That's that's how I always Y's rubbing off on you. Yeah, I mean That's how I've always thought about it, right, Like, it's just like he's definitely a heavy influence in the way I've thought about team building, Darl Morey, Right, And I think I think if I'm if I can pair those two top ten talents, I it's just two tanalizing, right. And I understand Murray's Murray's the younger prospect, and I understand that, you know, you don't want to break up what you have going there use the home ground talent. It's very hard to do. It's a very hard trade to do, especially coming off a Western Conference Finals appearance. But I still don't do their peak as getting to the NBA Finals. I mean, I don't know what. I'm curious to hear what you think, Like, do you think they could get to the NBA Finals in this Western Conference with this core? Uh? I think they could. It's just a lot harder this side of losing Jeremy Grant. Just their defense is taking such a hit and Harden's not going to help you there. And look, think ja Michael Green makes up some of it, not for what Grant can do, Like positionally, I don't want your Michael Green touching Lebron James or Kly Leonard or Paul George Fair. And look, the other thing with them is like if if for some reason you are doing the Michael Porter, do you hear trade, Like you're obliterating your wing depth because Barton and Harris are basically your only other wings and you need them essentially to make the money work. But you're also obliterating your headache, right, Like he's the guy that's just like what was this quote in the middle of the playoffs last year, like I need I need my touches or something like that, Like he said some something weird in a press conference last year during the middle of the playoffs, were like the Nuggets were having a bunch of success and they just lost one playoff game or something, and like he said something wild. I don't know what it was, but like he definitely seems like a guy if you if you could get like a star player out of him, you do it in a hard Yeah. Sweet. So, I just realized something that's an error with the Nets trade is that it would have to be a twenty twenty three The swaps have to be exchanged, so I have a twenty twenty four swap there. So I just wanted to clarify the Nets would have to give up a twenty twenty four pick, then it would be a twenty twenty five swap, a twenty twenty sixth pick, and then a twenty twenty seven swap. Keeping track of the Houston's pick commitments make this so difficult. They did trade for picks, but it's because they're those picks have protections on them as well, like you can't really fluts around like with those. So for anyone listening, I did catch that error. Yeah, okay, So, and by the way, I understand we were talking about Boston a little bit later. Like, but the reason I mentioned that is like I go into that with the same mindset with Boston, right, Like, if you can, if you have the opportunity to pair Tatum with Harden, like you you have to give that at least some heavy consideration, right, Like I think I think Tatum has a you know, really really you know, a really high potential, But I'm not sure if he has like best player on a championship team yet, like potential like that. That's like the other thing is controversial because he's done really well in the playoffs, but it's just I'm not sure if he has that yet. The Kemba injury too, makes it like if Kemba is fully healthy and you're not worried about his knees, maybe you're probably less likely to be interested in James Harden. In general, I think it becomes more intriguing because of the uncertainty now surrounding Kema on long term. Yeah, I think there's a reason they sign Tigue, right, Like, I think I think they knew some of this, They had some They also lost Hayward and like they let want Amaker go, they just needed another playmaker in general, right, But like I so like the Hayward thing. I don't know, maybe it's just me, Like I think the Hayward loss is getting a little bit overrated because I think these other guys need more touches, Like I would like to see these guys with more usage rate, especially Tatum Brown. I think where it deserves to be criticized that if they really could have had Doug McDermott, Miles Turner in a first round pick for Gordon Hayward and they were like, no, you need to give us oladiep or t J Warren instead. That's just why. But I would have taken turn of bloated trade exception out of this. So what it really depends on what they're heart capped, so they can't even like really use it to the folks tent right, right, Yeah, you're right. I forgot about their hardcaps. Whenever you do the sign and trades, you always like limit yourself a little bit in terms of what you can do mid season sucks. Are you ready to move on to our next team? Yes, let's do it. It's the Warriors, and the deal would be Andrew Wiggins, Wiseman, Kavan Looney, Eric Pascal, the Minnesota pick in twenty twenty one, and then two additional first round picks unprotected and two additional swaps that I think you would have to stretch out until twenty twenty six. So the question I have for you is how good is Minnesota going to be next year? They're not going to be good. I probably have them as one of the three to four worst Western Conference teams right now. Because here's the thing. 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