Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO
news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your
host, Alejandro Roja. Hello, all my little friends. I am Alejandro
Roa. Thank you mister Dan for that wonderful introduction. And I saw him
now that I think about it, but only for a couple seconds at the
UFO Congress last week, which some of you missed, but many of you
were there and it was wonderful to meet many of our radio listeners. So
it was a very fun event. It was busy, busy. I got
a little under the weather. I think it was. I don't know if
it's bad cold or bad allergies, but it kind of dampered my ability to
part in the evenings. But that's okay because everything else came across pretty smooth
and it was a lot of fun. And I know that Jason and I
will be talking about it a bit, and you know what, because I'm
not sure exactly what Jason wants to talk about, so we'll just talk about
everything on all wait. But I do want to tell you about our guest
tonight. This is a great show and we're happy to be back. I
know some of you missed us, and we're saying we missed you, man,
so thank you. I missed you too, and we are so happy
to be back. And I've got someone special on the show today, Jordan
Peace. And this is great because many of you might not have heard of
him because he's kind of a back, behind the scenes kind of guy.
He helped with the Disclosure Project, He's been helping with the Congress for years.
He's got a library in the Rogue Valley in Oregon outside in Ashland,
Oregon. Actually really cool guy, and he's been kind of shy. I
tried to talk them into coming on the radio show for years, I think
even when I started it. You know, it's already been like three years,
a little over three years or something like that. But he's always been
a little too shy to do it. So I'm really excited that he did.
And like a lot of people, they'll say, well, I don't
know if I have a whole hour of stuff to talk about, And sure
enough, you know, when we get to the end of the hour,
we're at risking going, man, we could have gone another hour, because
everybody has a lot to say, especially if you're passionate about the field,
you know you've got a lot to share and a lot of opinions, or
someone like Jordan has a lot of history to share. So it's a lot
of fun. We're gonna be talking to Jordan later on in the show,
but without further ado, why don't we just move on and bring on a
good old Jason McClellan, our news correspondent, so we can talk more about
the Congress and do some reminiscing and tell you how you can go see some
of the highlights and some of the cool stuff that went on. Hello,
Jason, hither Alejandro. This is your Open Minds News Brief everyone for Monday,
March fifth, twenty twelve. And it's so good to be back after
two weeks away doing the Congress. Glad to be back. And yeah,
let's get right into it and talk about the twenty first Annual International UFO Congress
that just took place. We wrapped that up. It was a fantastic event,
and I, like you, was blown away by the first day.
Like after the first day, after Wednesday, I thought, wow, it's
it's already hit the highlight. This was the peak Wednesday was just an amazing
day. The rest was just mediocrat best, just kidding, it was all
great, but that was a great day. Wednesday was a great way to
start it. It was really really good. And you know, one of
the highlights of the event for people who haven't been to the conference. On
Saturday, we have a large banquet, sort of a big festival. It's
a wrap up to our film festival, the EB Film Festival, and we
give awards. It's like our Academy Awards, our Emmys. But we also
introduced something last year additional researcher awards, and I think that that that's one
of my favorite parts of the conference is these these researcher awards we give out
and we have a Researcher of the Year award, and this year our Researcher
of the Year was Lee Spiegel from the Huffington Post, who's been on the
show a couple of times. Well deserved, a good buddy of ours,
and very very excited to see Lee get that. It's well deserved and it
was fun to get to spend a lot of time with Lee at the event.
And then the Lifetime Achievement Award was given to Colin Andrews for his decades
of working there, and I always forget he's a guy who coined the word
cross circle. Yeah, my goodness. Pretty big. And he says,
I'm pretty sure he said he's talked to the Queen. Why no, he
has said he's talked to the Queen about crop circles her Majesty herself. Wow,
pretty big stuff. He deserved it, and so did Lee because I
don't think a lot of people get shocked when they hear just how influential and
how much Lee had to do with the UN presentations that happened in seventy which
was really important. I mean, it's the only time that this stuff has
gotten in front of the United Nations and all of the delegates and an important
moment in time that people can read about in our magazine. So it was
well deserved. Also, Lee, who we've had on the show a couple
of times now, So I think if you have listened to those shows,
or if you go back and listen to him, you'll understand why he so
deserved the award for the year. And recently he published a piece on the
Huffington Post sort of his recap of the Congress. So that's an interesting read
and speaking of Lees Spiegel from the Huffington Post, one of my personal favorite
presentations at the conference was the media panel we had. Yeah, that was
that was maybe my favorite highlight my you know, getting to talk with those
guys and have that fun. Certainly that that included they were all they've all
been guests on this show. Bryce Sable, Ben Hanson, and Lese Biegel.
Yeah, that was great. And getting back to the first day,
I did want to mention one of the reasons why it was so great.
I mean, we had Jack Sukowski his cattle mutilation stuff, which I've seen
but others may have not, and if you are into cattle mutilations, you're
definitely going to want to watch that DVD. We had Clifford Cliff who gets
better and better all the time. He's witty and he's fun. But he
went over some great cases because he's been combing the move On file, so
these incredible cases were move On right. He recently stepped down as the international
director, but he is sort of heading up the move On archives and he
presented some stuff that hasn't been presented before. So that first day was also
lee and did we wrap it up with Vaughan was that the first day it
all it becomes a blur, But I remember, you know, that first
day, that first start, it was like, wow, these are great
presentations. So we were off to a great start. Yeah, and again
the media panel was great and I enjoyed that personally, and I think a
lot of attendees did too. That's something new we did this year, was
the panels. Yeah, and people like that, you know, and it
gave them a longer opportunity, a better opportunity to come up and ask questions
because a large time period with the panels was devoted to questions from the audience.
Yeah, Like an hour in each panel I think was devoted to Q
and A from the audience. And unfortunately, at every single one, we
had to turn people away because there are so many people with so many questions.
That's right. Luckily they could go to the vendor room or out into
the hallway to ask questions of the panelists. But people always have some great
questions and come up with stuff you wouldn't have thought of. So that was
a lot of fun. And yeah, like you said, I think that's
people loved it. Yeah, I agree. And for those of you who
either attended this year or or didn't plan to next year, or if you
planned a turn next year, stay tuned to the show. Listen in carefully
because we will announce and I have it on good authority that registration will probably
open earlier this year than it did lot or next year than it did this
year. And if this year is in the indicator as was last year,
the hotel sells out pretty quickly, and you want to be in that main
hotel, you know. I had several people come up and say, I
listened to the radio show, and I'm glad that I listened to you and
got my tickets early, because the hotels sold out like within a month.
I heard that too, you know. And I think a lot of a
lot of the people where you are are listeners to this show, who because
we gave lots and lots of those warnings to people, get your hotel now,
and a lot of the listeners did, and I think they appreciated that.
And it's a beautiful hotel. It's a great hotel, and that's where
all the action is and it built out fast, as does every other hotel
in the area. So it's a pretty big time event. So yeah,
we'll definitely let you know as soon as the hotel opens up, as soon
as registration opens up, so you can jump on that as soon as possible.
But I had fun like I did last year. There's never enough time
to and really, to me, the greatest benefit to conferences is not discovering
some breaking information or something that's never been heard before. I mean, there's
some of that and that's great, but the main benefit to these events is
the social aspect, being able to interact with the researchers and to socialize with
a lot of the people there. It's just a great social event to me.
Though. The one piece of new information that was really new and great
was the General Bermudez who brought that they have analyzed and it was some incredible
video. Yep, this is the General Ricardo Bermudas from Chile who heads up
their official UFO investigation unit and their government. Very exciting stuff. He presented
video and audio evidence from their case and then did did you guys put up
a video today? I think we put up a video today and Antonio Juneus
wrote an article about the cases that the General presented and we will be putting
up a more in depth video with more of the clips from the General's presentation
and all the presentations from the Congress can be purchased from our website. We
do sell all of those, but we will be putting up more on YouTube
from the General's presentation. In a more video news piece from Antonio. One
thing I wanted to ask you about. Just the other day, I put
up on UFO Daily News some videos of some of the news coverage of the
Congress, especially some of the interviews I got to do just I was aware
of those more and so the coverage, though, was really good. I
think you probably were able to look at more of the Congress coverage than I
was able to look at, but overall it was very positive. It seemed,
you know, just like all the other UFO news, not all,
but much of the UFO news coverage we're seeing lately, it's becoming covered more
and more journalistically, not covered as a joke. There's less of the rolling
the eyes and throwing in a joke here and there. There's certainly some of
that still, but the strong majority of the media coverage of the event this
year was basically just straight up, here's the event, and here's what it
is. And by the way, if you want to come out and see
it, here's when you can do it, and how much it costs.
I mean, it was very straightforward news reporting without the little jokes here and
there. I thought it was even better than last year. But you know,
I was pleasantly surprised. Yeah, when I went to the studio for
CBS in the morning after we were done shooting, you know, the other
anchors were asking me questions. They were asking like when do you think the
government's finally going to tell us? Is what they're asking, And you know,
I gave them whatever replies I had, and they're like, you know,
do you I think they will ever tell us? So these questions they
were asking were kind of assuming that the government did know more. You know,
they weren't making fun of it or anything. So it was really cool.
That's exciting. And the media people we talked to who came out to
the event were excited to be there and they asked their own questions and yeah,
they were very excited, right, So I thought they did a good
job. Yeah, it was very cool. That's a great coverage. Yep,
thanks media, you rock well. Although we did talk about in that
panel that you refer to why the media doesn't usually often get it right and
why they do ridicule a lot, and there were some very interesting answers,
and I think what was great is that we had coverage from a television show,
we had someone from online media kind of print ish, but online media
national, and then we had someone from Hollywood, so we had a well
rounded group to talk about, you know, why the way happen and if
there is you know, big brother back there suppressing stuff from what they've seen
and what they've been able to do. So it was great to get more
insight into really the inner workings and the behind the scenes of the media and
UFOs. I agree. And of all the DVDs we have of these presentations
that we're given, that's the one that I'm going to go back and watch
first is the media panel, Yeah, because I found that one the most
fascinating, and they the panelist did such a great job too. And of
course I wanted to mention and you know, just to say thanks to some
of the guys who help us, who are just so awesome out there.
Of course there's Angelareo and and Heather Fetter from the company who help us out,
and there's Maureen, but some of the guys that help us back backstage
with like Danny and Chean and Chris and Carlow and Jordan who were having on
the show later Jordan will be on. The guys are awesome. Yeah,
they are really the magic workers who make the whole thing happen. And we
do the conference with very minimal staff and these guys just go, go,
go all day and they do it. They're volunteers. This is something they
do because they love it, and they do a terrific job. And we're,
like I said, with the DVDs, we're actually able to produce these
DVDs on the spot, turn them around in you know, two to three
hours, and have them available for people at the conference. And I mentioned
Colin and John, and there's someone else I'm missing, and then there's our
two special guest camera people. Of course. Yes, yes, we must
thank Dale and Pam for coming out from California to we're cameras for us.
And yeah, we had people from a couple of people from Oregon and one
from where's Carlo from Carlos from California. No he's not Carlos Minnesota, not
Minnesota, really Midwest. Yeah, Oh, I just said, you go
back to the cold weather. Poor guy, I thought he was out of
la or something. No, oh wow, No. But we have a
great team, and you know they they work day in and day out and
make the thing happen, and it wouldn't work without them. So we really
appreciate all their help. Yep, those guys are awesome. Yep. Well,
another Congress down in the books and we'll do it again. But let's
talk some other news. A lejandro about the Congress all day long. Well.
Scientists have evidence suggesting the president the presence of water below the surface of
several planets and moons, and the presence of water is the primary component scientists
look for when searching for extraterrestrial life. Saturn's moon and Silatus is one of
these alien worlds where water has been detected, and it's also the target of
researchers who want to search for signs of extraterrestrial life in its water. Scientists
led by the German Aerospace Center are developing a probe to melt and drill beneath
the icy crust of Ensulatus to search for alien life in the water that is
thought to be below the moon's surface. Researchers have named the probe ice mole,
and, as space dot Com explains, quote, after ice mool reaches
its target, a cryovolcanic crevice filled with water, it is hoped its aim
is to sample the liquid, examining it for evidence of microbes. This exploration
project, called Ensulatus Explorer or NX, launched on February twenty second, but
testing of the ice mol is already underway here on Earth. It has successfully
been used to drill into glaciers in Switzerland, and researchers plan to conduct additional
testing during the next couple of years in Alaska and Antarctica. According to Oliver
Funk, project manager for the ensulatust Explorer at the German Aerospace Center, quote
NX deals with one of the most exciting tasks of space exploration, the search
for extraterrestrial life. Fulk also stated that if NX goes well, an ICEMOL
mission to explore the polar ice caps on Mars will be proposed. You know,
I just got done with the story for the magazine on this stuff,
but the news is coming out like crazy. I mean it's already been coming
out like crazy. We've been talking about it every show I follow this every
day and I can't keep up with it. Yeah, there's this one.
There's this other planet that has water but the pressure is too high and it's
weird water and weird forms that they just proved there are water planets out there.
So the person who discovered it says, you know, there's probably going
to be more planets like that out there that are in areas where the water
is in a typical liquid form. Then there was one, yeah, that
one we talked about on the last show where it was like twenty light years
away which is relatively close, that has water and is in the Goldilocks zone,
and one of Saturn's moods today was found to have an oxygen atmosphere.
Right, the news just keeps popping. Yep, Well, we do our
best. Yeah. In other news, UFO sidings routinely flood newsrooms and police
stations with phone calls, and while some police stations find UFO reports to be
an unwanted nuisance, a law enforcement agency in Arizona welcomes reports of UFOs and
other paranormal phenomena. KPHO, the CBS affiliate in Phoenix, reported last week
that officials on the Navajo Reservation investigate these strange cases and have been doing so
for ten years. This agency, known as the Navajo Nation Rangers, is
a federal law enforcement resource, according to Lieutenant John Dover, and the management
of national parks, fish and wildlife services, and archaeological sites are a few
of the agency's responsibilities. Dover's investigations have revealed a quote wealth of information,
and KPHO reports that the Rangers recently shared with them photos and documents from dozens
of paranormal investigations. Dover told KPHO, quote, maybe we don't believe it,
maybe we don't hold every belief that you do, but we're going to
investigate it rather meticulously and professionally, will report it and let the chips fall
where they will. In this willingness to take reports of paranoral activity and the
promise to be thorough and discreet during the investigation process that makes witnesses feel comfortable
dealing with these officers and Dover will reportedly be a special guest at the Harkinsha
fourteenth Theater in Scottsdale, Arizona, on March eleventh, for the screening of
the documentary The Phoenix Lights. That event marks the fifteenth anniversary of the famous
mass UFO sighting that took place in Arizona in nineteen ninety seven, and we
met Dover last year at the UFO Congress. I don't know if he was
there this year. Yeah, last year, I think so. I think
I saw him. But we let them audit some of the speakers to do
training because they were just getting started in this stuff. And they said that
they would like to come to the conference and watch them speakers, but they
weren't sure if they could afford it, and so we let them watch them
speakers. So yeah, and that's one thing that I asked them to be
on the show, and I've kind of dropped the ball, honestly because they
said they were a little shy about it. But I didn't pursue it.
But I really need to because I will be there at the screening of The
Phoenix Lights this weekend on the eleventh at at one pm at the Shay Harkins
Theater, So if you live in the Phoenix area, come check it out
where doctor link Tai will show her documentary on the Phoenix Light. She does
this every year, but this is a fifteenth year anniversary. In fact,
we'll probably have her on the show next week. I think we'll be able
to work out, so yeah, and we'll meet those guys, so I'll
talk to him again. But really nice guys. And I just didn't know
the depth this article is incredible, The depth of research and investigation they've done,
I mean everything, and they're really getting out there and taking this seriously.
It's very cool. These are Yeah, these are full blown investigations.
They're meticulous and they're taking it seriously. Yeah, really cool. So it's
exciting to see. And you're right, I mean, they seem to be
more more out in the open with it now, so I think they'll be
more willing to talk about it. Well. On December twenty eleven, astrobiologist
Paul Davies and research technician Robert Wagner published a scientific paper calling for the public
self to search portrases of extraterrestrial life on the Moon. Now, the SETI
Institute the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence is calling on the public for help as well.
The SETI Institute announced the launch of SETI Live at the TED conference in
Los Angeles. Now, this is pretty big. The TED, which stands
for Technology, Entertainment and Design, is a conference that's gotten quite large in
the past few years, and so they were there and according to space dot
Com, this new website SETI Live. Anyone can go to the website and
register and they can assist in the search for extraterrestrial radio signals by analyzing data
received by Setti's Allen telescope. Ran California. Doctor Gillian Tarter, director of
the Seti Institute, Center for SETI Research and winner of the Ted Prize in
two thousand and nine, explain quote, I'm hoping that an army of volunteers
can help us deal with these crowded frequency bands that confuse our machines. By
doing this in real time, we will have an opportunity to follow up immediately
on what our volunteers discover. The BBC points out that crowdsourcing data quote has
proved to be very useful a useful tool for scientists in a range of disciplines,
so it makes sense to utilize crowdthurcing and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence as
well. And if you'd like to join in on the search, you can
go to their website and register at SETILive dot org. It's kind of interesting
that they're counting on humans to pick up on things that machines can't. I
always think of computers being able to pick up on so much more than we
can. But yeah, it maybe it's more of a marketing thing. I'm
not sure, but it could be. And you know what I mean,
the media loves SETI. Yeah, as we've seen in the past couple of
years, anytime there's anything from SETI, every media organization picks up on it.
You know, they had their budget problems this year and now with this,
so we'll see. But it's interesting to get the public involved. Hopefully
they're competent people doing it. And I assume there's some sort of instructions on
what you're supposed to do, but I have to check it out. But
people like it. I mean, it sounds exciting to me and I want
to search for e T. But we do. Yeah, I do.
I don't know what the hell you're doing. I'm lazy. But astronomers are
talking about a new approach for detecting biosignatures beyond our Solar system. When a
sun's light reflects off a planet and onto one of that planet's moons, lnight
tests are able to determine details about that planet's surface as universe today, explained
researchers from the European Southern Observatory quote use Earth as a benchmark for the future
study or the future search for life on planets beyond our Solar system. The
astronomers say they can analyze the faint planet shine, look to the light to
look for indicators such as certain combinations of gases in the atmosphere, as they
found looking at Earth shine to find tailtale signs of organic life. And the
team's research was recently published in the journal Nature. But this is kind of
interesting. So they looked at our moon to test this out, and using
the light that is reflected from the Earth onto the Moon, they could tell
that we have a cloudy atmosphere and they could tell other things too. It's
not going to be very detailed, and I think there's going to be a
lot of guessing and filling in blanks, but it's another method that they're using
on these places that they can't really get direct looks at the planet, they
can look at the reflection. Wellhundra, I've got one more story I want
to get in here, and it's about another fireball UFO, firewall UFO,
so many fireball UFOs yeah, so thousands of witnesses saw a strange, slow
moving bright light in the night sky above northern Britain on Saturday, March third.
The Telegraph reported that a spokesman from the Strathclyde Police said they had been
inundated with calls about a bright object in the sky west of Scotland. Also,
a spokeswoman from the Durham Police said they received several calls from concerned people
who had seen a quote bright light or a fire in the sky, and
some witnesses even reported their belief that this fire in the sky incident involved an
aircraft, but Air Traffic Control confirmed that no aircraft incidents were reported and that
nothing registered on radar. Experts believed that mysterious fireball was a meteor entering the
atmosphere. And there was even a woman today who came forward claiming to have
recovered the media that came down. Oh really cool. Those are worth a
lot of money. Yeah, she was pretty excited. It looked on the
internet it looks like what it is supposed to be, but who knows,
I mean. And again they said, oh, this is like the brightest
one we've seen in thirty years or something. But again we're having all these
fireballs, gigantic fireballs, huge continus, that's what they say. They are
meteors. But these things are supposed to be rare, and they're happening like
almost weekly. Now. Yeah, I remember when it was so exciting when
they had happened and it was really rare. Then I saw the one out
in the desert and they're happening all over the place, everybody's seeing it.
Well, I do want to say this this one. There's video of it,
and it doesn't look like the one you saw or like some of these
others that break up and that's green in the different colors. This was just
a fireball, yeah, very whitish, light, big and yeah, not
breaking up, just this ball of yep, very interesting, cool stuff.
Yeah, the fireballs are fascinating. Ye. Well all hunter, that is
it for the news you remember, guys. You can check out all these
stories and so many more it Openies Do TV your source for UFO related news.
I'm Jason McClellan, your Open Eyed News course London, and you've been
briefed back to you Sirollehandro. Thank you, Jason. Jason can talk pretty
fast. Sometimes I can't talk it to Bessie. He does that he can
go really best. But other news out there, it's kind of funny.
Lee Spiegel actually just posted one as we're talking on Chuopacabras, so you can
go check that out. Otherwise, like I had mentioned, we have the
videos up Herofo Daily News and then at Openminds dot tv, including the bermudez
ones that we were talking about, because, like we said, that was
a really incredible case and they had, you know, a lot of investigation
done on this kind of gum drop silver looking UFO that was zipping around at
amazing speeds while they were having an air show out there in Chili. So
you've got to check that out. Now, I've got a lot to talk
about with Jordan Peace, even though he doesn't think so. I think we've
got more than enough to go through, so I think we better go ahead
and get Jordan on the line. I have on the phone with me one
of my good friends and someone really i've gotten to know through the UFO Congress
working on it for many years or going there, and that is Jordan Peace.
Hello Jordan, Hey, Ellie Hondra, thanks for inviting me for this
interview with you. I'm really excited about it. Yeah, I'm really excited
to have you on because, as far as I'm concerned, you're one of
those kind of behind the scenes guy that helps geil the whole community and keep
things moving forward. And so I'm really excited to talk to you about the
different projects you have going on and your experience, you know, over the
many years of working on this stuff. Yeah, it's been quite an adventure
for me. As you know, I've met you at the MOFON conference in
Denver, Colorado there I think it was two thousand and one. Do you
recall, you know, I can't remember at first when we met. I
just remember it was a long time ago, but that makes sense now that
I think about it. Yeah, yeah, I think so. We were
just doing our load out there after the event, and I remember just spending
quite a bit of time with you right at the loading doc right sharing my
experiences with the Disclosure Project and the UFO Congress. Yeah, I do remember
that our first conversation right that one there, because I is helping you guys
load and unload because you were helping out with the AV and I remember our
first conversation ended with a hug because I remember I love this guy. That
was my feeling about you as well too, So I'm glad we're here,
what eleven years later, sharing our friendship on the air here, right,
that's great. So how long have you been helping out with the UFO Congress.
Well, let's see, I have attended many conferences, as I'm sure
you know listen to attendee and on the production staff, and so I'm not
really sure for your listeners. The UFO Congress was founded by Bob and Terry
Brown, and I think their first conference was actually in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Not recalling the year. This year was the twenty first annual, so
whatever the math is on that. Then they moved it to Laughlin, Nevada,
I think the next year, and shortly after that is when I began
attending, So that would have been you know, mid nineties somehow or sometime.
And then well, these are long stories, so feel free to cut
me short, but I don't want to go ahead. Then it was actually
during Steve Breer's Disclosure Project press conference May ninth, two thousand and one,
that that was a period that really changed my life in many ways. And
we can get into that in more detail, but it was during that conference,
and in fact, it was the night of the May ninth press conference.
I took Bob and Terry Brown out to dinner, who were also there
in attendance, and that's when they invited me to be on their production staff.
So then that following year and every year since except one year two thousand
and five, I wasn't able to go. I've had the privilege of being
on that production staff and help them make it all happen there. Okay,
I guess let's go way back, even further into your path too, when
you first started getting active in the UFO community, and what was the impetus
for getting you there? Sure, well, I do want to share with
your listeners a lot about that experience for me, and because I'm sure that
other people who are studying these subjects have had a similar path into it.
So you know, I came from a fairly mainstream background. I had interest
in paranormal subjects in the UFO phenomena, but mostly this is a casual hobby,
I guess you'd say. Then, in about nineteen eighty eight, I
had a colleague I worked as a sound engineer in the San Francisco Bay area.
This man's name is Stephen Degrassia, and she had been a colleague in
an acquaintance for quite some time, and I kind of love track of him.
Then kind of out of nowhere, he resurfaced in my life and was
a completely different person. And he had attributed his change of life focus to
a UFO siding he had in Sebasketball, California. And because I'd known this
man and felt he was sane, I was very very intrigued, and he
was very happy to go on and on and on and on and on about
his experience and how he felt, you know, the world was being affected
by contact with extraterrestrial intelligence and et cetera, et cetera, And so that's
what really really kindled my interest in the phenomenon. Then I began doing reading
on my own. And you know a lot of people will have the experience
for a book will just kind of appear in their life, or you know,
fall off the bookshelf at the bookstore. That was certainly true for me
back in those days. And so I just became quite obsessed, frankly,
with the subject and would just read anything I could get my hands on,
and started attending the International u HO Congress there in Laughlin. And finally,
and here's part I want to focus on specifically, finally found a community of
people where it was safe to discuss these subjects. And when I when I
characterize my feelings about being involved in the production of these various conferences, it's
it's that great opportunity to help support, uh, you know, first timers
and newcomers to these subjects and understanding and remembering what it was like for me,
you know, feeling that sense of being ostracized and ridiculed by you know,
family and friends around these subjects. And so you know, that's that's
where I feel my most sense of satisfaction comes. It's the opportunity to help
support and you know, pave the way and make it a safe experience for
people that are you know, just putting their toe in the water of these
these subjects that we speak, right, That is a fun part of these
conferences because sometimes it feels like it's just seeing people over and over again,
but really it's not. You know, even this year at the banquet,
I was sitting next to a couple who it was the first time at a
cons like that. You know, they had an interest and the wife she
had looked online for to find a community of people to talk to because just
like you said, you know, she felt like her friends didn't really want
to talk about any of this, so she was so excited to be at
the conference. And it's I think it's important and it's always very fulfilling to
provide that sort of space with people like this very much, And that's that's
my feelings about it too. And before we go too far on the conversation,
and Alejandro, I certainly want to commend you and John Rao and the
Open mind staff there for taking passing the baton receiving the baton as the conference
changed hands there last year moved to Fountain Hills, Arizona. It's just been
a tremendously rewarding experience, like I keep saying, and I'm just really really
glad to see the conference in such good hands and run at such a such
a high level of organization and professionalism. So hats off to you guys.
It's just been just wonderful transition to see. And I know I speak for
other people as well who have the same feelings in regard for Open Minds and
the staff there. Well, thank you very much because it was a tall
order, you know. I before Terry passed away, you know, I
got to know her, and she was a wonderful person and I so loved
her, and I was so impressed by her business skills and being able to
put this professional conference together. And then I was, you know, equally
impressed with her daughters, especially Nicky when you know she they were kind of
handed the reins a little bit begrudgingly to write to keep the thing going,
and they did such an amazing job. One of the reasons I was so
amazed is because, as you know, I was involved with the moufon conferences,
but most conferences in this field don't make money and they don't survive because
of that. But these guys are so well organized they've been able to keep
it going. So it was a big challenge. And so you know,
thank you because it was a lot of work. And I hope, you
know, we we've added some more energy to keep it going for for years
and years to come. Oh yes, again, it's just been great to
see the level of professionalism increase. And like you say, Nicki Brown Nicki
Irvine is her married name, has just done tremendous work carrying on the work
of her mother Terry and father Bob Brown, and many people I'm sure listening
are aware of the Brown family and the tremendous contributions that they've made to the
field of UFO research and study. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely have mentioned
them a lot, so good thank you for bringing that up, because it
was. It's a great tradition and it's it's fun to be a part of
that tradition, and hopefully it's good to see you every year there. It
really is like, like you've already acknowledged, it really is like a family
reunion of sorts to come together with people. You typically only see her once
a year at those conferences, and there's just never enough time, especially when
you know, you and I are working backstage on the production. You know,
there's so many people out in the audience that I want to catch up
with and visit with, and I this last conference, I had the opportunity
a little bit to do that, but it never feels like enough. Those
few days just fly by, and you know, it's great to see the
people, but it's unfortunate we don't get to catch up throughout the year as
much as we do at the conference. Yeah, It's funny because even though
we're backstage spending a lot of time together, I'm always thinking, man,
I hope I can grab Jordan and have a conversation, because really, you
know, you're busy back there duplicating DVDs. I'm usually pacing behind the stage,
waiting for making sure the av is working for everyone, and scrambling to
fix anything if it's broken. So it's just, yeah, so tense that
we're not behind stage having conversations. We're so focused on the show. Yeah,
not at all. There's just not enough time. Like I said,
I really also want to take this opportunity to encourage listeners that haven't been a
conference like this. Fay are at all inclined. I really want to encourage
them to make the effort and do it. Your website, I'm sure that
we'll mention again, but I'll here, I'll say it now. Openminds dot
tv is how you learn more about the twenty thirteen conference. I don't think
there's any speakers up there yet, but has the details about the dates and
the beautiful accommodations. Let me comment on that as well too. Laughlin was
a nice hotel and the great facilities there too. But boy, sure has
taken a step up to be hosted that your new venue there, Fort mcdewell,
just outside of Mountain Hills, Arizona. It is mine because it's a
beautiful place and it's where these golfers go. And it feels like, yeah,
taking even more so bringing the subject out of the closet and putting it,
being bold and putting it, you know, a good foot forward in
that this is we don't have to be shy about this subject. It's a
real subject, It's an important subject, and it deserves as metrospect as any
other. Absolutely, if not more, I agree, And that's what I
think I did for many of the people that attend those conferences, realizing the
implications, of course, of the UFO phenomenon, all the related subjects that
seem dovetail tangentially. There's just so so much there, and I'm just really
glad to see finally in the media this program that I'm sure a lot of
listeners are aware of, Ancient Aliens has really, I think taken it to
the next threshold of acceptability in our society, that there really is a reality
to these phenomena, and it certainly warrants a lot more attention and resources devoted
to it, to the study and understand all the different beasts of it.
Now, one of the things you had meant to touched upon and I wanted
to talk more about, is you know, back in your earlier history and
this stuff is the Disclosure Project. Really, it was a disclosure project that
got me, you know, to really throw myself into the ring and to
devote so much of my life. It was. I was interested in the
subject, but when I saw, you know, all of these credible people
brought to the forefront, brought to the Washington Press Club in May of two
thousand and one, I thought, wow, you know, people need to
know about this. I was a journalism student, and so I really kind
of took that on as my beat and ran with it. And that was
one of the exciting things when I first talked to you, because you were
working some of the behind the scenes on the Disclosure Project. How did you
get involved with that? That must have been exciting. Oh, exciting just
doesn't even begin to encapsulate. That year and a half I spent touring around
with the Disclosure Project, Steve Greer and the Witnesses. Boy, it's a
long, long stories too. Well, let's see, how did I get
involved, I think was your question. Well, let's see, I'd known
Steve Greer, I'm sure i'd seen him lecture at the last one conference and
probably received an email or something about this May ninth, two thousand and one
press conference, and thought, wow, that's going to be a significant event
in history, and she wouldn't it be fun to attend that live? And
so I made arrangement stud do that, and brought two of my friends back
with me and just expecting to you know, be in the room and maybe
meet some of the witnesses, fly back home, and that's all I was
really expecting out of the experience. But little or unbeknownst to me at the
time, fate had a different path in store for me, thankfully, And
so well, let's see. Trying to keep it a shorter story time,
okay. I love telling these stories and honoring the tremendous courage of the witnesses
that participated, especially in that first event, the main ninth conference. There,
you know, the tension in the room was just palpable as these men
stepped forward to share their testimony in front of the National Press Club cameras.
There a very well attended event in terms of media, although those that might
not have been following it very close you would never have known, because,
as is somewhat sometimes typical, even though all the press were there, I
have my own, you know, disposable camera snapshots of all the people their
cameras, and that room was full on don't one hundred and fifty people,
that was standing room crowd and that large auditorium. There very little mentioned in
mainstream media the following day, some ridicule, some you know, kind of
ho hum page three sort of thing, which of course was disheartening but somewhat
expected, especially at that time. And like I mentioned earlier, it seems
like in the last ten years climates changed considerably, which of course is noteworthy
and encouraging to those of us that have followed us for so long and recognize
the importance of these subjects so well. Okay, Prior to me going there,
actually was contacted by a man named Alfred Weber, who at the time
was working for the project, and he encouraged me as a I live in
Ashland, Oregon and so as an Ashland constituent to he encouraged me to call
my you know, congressional representatives and set up meetings, which I did to
be able to bring some of the disclosure project witnesses right into the offices there
in the Congressional office buildings and speak to staffers in those organ representatives' office.
So as you might imagine, that was I had an experience so upon just
meeting these what I regard as heroes, especially those twenty two that that first
testified there at the or I should say gave testimony there at the at the
National Press Club. So you know, I was introduced to six of them,
I believe. I can't remember specifically who I took to the meetings.
Well, I remember a few, certainly. Daniel Sheen, who I'm still
in touch with and I've done projects with, was one of them, Jorney
Distial Sheen. We can speak about Hman in a few minutes. A senior
staff member of the FAA, John Callahan, was one of the people that
I piled into a taxi cab and drove over there to meet with Greg Walden
and Widen. Walden and Whyden were are two senators at the time. I
can't remember the name of our representative of that time, unfortunately, but like
I say, we had meetings with their staff. Were unfortunately not able to
speak with the Congress people themselves, which I'm sure is fairly typical for those
kinds of constituent meetings. And well, I guess I want to say two
things here. So it was a really interest sting education for me to kind
of get a glimpse of the inner workings of how Congress operates and who staff
those offices and their interests and disinterest you might say. And so in other
words, we were met with not exactly a warm reception on these subjects,
even though you know, the credibility and credentials of course of these these kinds
of people that I was bringing there, you know, speak for themselves,
so they're really in my mind. Anyway, there was no question about you
know, this is something to take seriously. But unfortunately, especially at that
time, climate was not conducive, you might say, to the Congress people
taking this very seriously. Also, during that week we spent back through me
and two of my friends and all my new friends that I met from the
Disclosure Project, we hand delivered briefing packets to every single one of those offices,
hundreds videotape testimony the VHS tapes, the testimony that Steve Greer had gone
around and recorded mostly in the witness those living rooms, and then you know,
summary packages that summarize the key points. So and just in doing that,
like I say, it was just a really interesting education to see how
the inner workings of Washington really go. So a lot of the reception you
received was kind of and I know the feeling, you know, because I
go to when you go to a new studio, sometimes it's like that.
You know, some of the people are kind of they just kind of look
with you funny. They maybe have a half smile, or they just don't
look very happy. They're not you know, open with open arms and big
smiles. Sometimes they are, but not always. So I know the feeling.
But you received a lot of this kind of we're begrudgingly kind of humoring
you type of thing. Yeah. Unfortunately, although even at that time I
understood that, and maybe a little later we can talk about how, you
know, the social climate has been perhaps manipulated to be that way. In
other words, I think that a lot of people that aren't inclined to look
into these subjects on their own, you know, the ridicule factor. I
come to believe is kind of a manipulated circumstance. So it's not exactly human
nature that does that. It's kind of molded that way, which is unfortunate
of course. But again I think that's changing rapidly as that I think it
needs to as we well, let me back up a little bit. When
I was setting setting up those meetings, which took quite a few phone calls,
it really wasn't that hard. It just took a lot of follow up,
uh, to actually to actually get a time booked, especially since we
only had a fairly small window to do it, and we were advised not
to use the term you know, extraterrestrials or unidentified flying objects or any of
that. So it was more about like the subject of the meeting you might
say that I set up with those three representatives was alternative energy technologies, which
is, you know, I'm sure a lot of your listeners realize, is
kind of a very practical or very pragmatic reason to study the UFO phenomena because
perhaps, like many have come forward and shared, likely there are technologies that
have been kept secret for whatever reason that potentially could render you know, fossil
fuel learning unnecessary and g that's a pretty significant possibility, so let's try to
get to the bottom of that. So that's kind of with the how we
couched what the meetings would be about. But immediately, of course, we
got right into why those people were testifying for the Disclosure Project, and that's
when they started to raise and eyes started to roll and all that kind of
stuff. So yeah, we weren't taken very seriously unfortunately. M Were there
any surprises where people were like very open and excited about all of this and
maybe didn't mind broaching the UFO topic or did you have to find that at
all? I don't think we even though you know, like I said,
me and others walked around over those few days hand delivering the packages to the
receptionists anyway, at those at all those offices beyond the three meetings that I
had set up specifically, No, unfortunately, Alihandra, I I'm sorry to
say that there was very little reception that I can recall anyway. But what
I can say though, is when following that event, I got invited to
be an assistant tour director for Steve Greer in the project. You know,
we went around to I think it was eighteen cities around the United States and
Canada presenting the Disclosure Project to you know, various communities. So there was
where we really felt tremendous reception, sometimes by you know, civic leaders and
other people of influence in these communities, but certainly by just the average general
public. We're very, very excited that these witnesses were coming forward and sharing
what they had been doing within these projects within the government and industry related to
these extraterrestrial encounters and research projects, et cetera. Now, I was wondering
about the experience of some of these witnesses because I know I have on occasion,
you know, been able to work with professionals or retired military and it's
the first time they're talking about this in the public, and they're really nervous
and they think that they're going to be met with a lot of derision,
but they're very happily excited when the UFO community is receptive. Did some of
the witnesses that you were taking a rent did they feel that way that they
have a lot of apprehensions. Absolutely, And that's part of the story that
I often get goosebumps and I relate to people the feeling see, how do
I explain this concisely. So you know, these are as you know,
and I'm sure a lot of the listeners have looked into the Disclosure Project and
read the witness list there, particularly those twenty two they were at the press
club that we're talking about. These are very high ranking people, very serious
people who have nothing to gain. These people aren't selling books and are on
lecture tours. A few of them have since, but certainly at that time
they were unknown to the UFOUCH community for the most part, and so upon
just meeting them and thanking them and congratulating them and encouraging them for what they
were doing. The experience of them kind of turning the tables and saying no
thank you, meeting me and the rest of the staff there for the opportunity
for them to get these things off their chest was just an unexpected and very
very gratifying, touching experience for me. And I'll just cherish those memories of
the relationships I have grown with some of those witnesses and so yes, certainly
the experience for them for the most part has been has been tremendous as well
as they have been received so well by at least the UFO research community.
And more and more people now as the subject becomes more socially acceptable to talk
about. I want to talk a little bit about Daniel Sheehan too, because
I know he's a friend of yours. You talk with him, and I
don't know if people realize how important he was to the disclosure project because he
kind of set that legal precedents. Well, he put up his help saying
that, look, if you guys come forward, I will be sure that
to represent you, should there be any ramifications for you talking about things that
you're supposedly not to speak about, because his argument was that any of these
things you weren't supposed to talk about supposedly if they were not legal anyway,
And so that I think, from what I hear, helped a lot of
those people because they did have some legal representations. Should there be any backlash?
Sure, Danny Sheen has become a mentor and friend of mine, and
if we've booked on several projects together, reason invited me to participate in a
lot of the things that he's been doing. Boy, where do you start
with Danny Sheen? Well, those that don't know that name, I don't
have this buyo in front of me, although it runs three or four pages.
As you probably know well, he's well known for work with defending Karen
Silkwood in the Silkwood Case, a great film that portrays what happened there.
Certainly the Pentagon papers, the Iran Contra affair, those are ones that people
would have heard about. Then there's several others. Right now, he's working
with the Lakota Indian tribes up in South Dakota with challenges with child abuse and
what happens you know, way off in the reservations that the mainstream news media
just isn't aware of some real unfortunate the tents that he's trying to represent those
those poor people about. So that's kind of his focus these days. But
others will know. Your listeners will know that he's spoken of these conferences.
He's extremely articulate about the idea of extraterrestrial contact and exopolitics, and especially from
a kind of a theological point of view. I suppose you'd say, implications
for religious beliefs and the like, but again especially also the you know,
sociological ramifications like I should say, and things that we need to be started
starting to you know, proactively preemptively consider as we entered a larger universe of
intelligent life perhaps, and so was that What was it like? I mean,
he he's just very thoughtful, he's very spiritual, he's very he's just
such an interesting guy. So I guess at the inception of your friendship with
him, what were your impressions of him when you first met him? Well,
I suppose I had heard of him. I'm not really sure. I
was first introduced to who he was in the body of work that he's achieved
in his life, which is again very significant. I just didn't even do
the tip of the iceberg. Just there a lot of good stuff. Well,
we just seem to have a you know, immediate rapport, and I
was, just like many people are, upon meeting that man, very impressed
with his intellect and his ability to articulate for complex ideas. His well,
how would you say, is very you know, approachable, and he'll talk
to anybody and we'll talk your ear off all night long with just incredible stories
about the kinds of things that he's been involved in. And it's just a
fascinating experience anytime I'm with him. But like you said, he's just a
very you know, humanitarian or oriented kind of person who is very interested in
furthering humanitarian causes. His role with the Disclosure Project is compared to some of
the other witnesses, I would say, it's not all that significant, and
he would agree. Briefly. The summary of that is he was asked by
the Carter administration to get into the National Archive and see if there's any documentation
on the Roswell incident in nineteen forty seven, and he was granted access to
a small amount of files or something, and so he just was giving testimony
with the Disclosure Project regarding that. But like you said, Alejandro, he
was this greater role with the Disclosure Project was to offer legal advice and counsel
to the people coming forward that had concerns about you know, ramifications of breaking
their secret CEOs, et cetera. And to my knowledge, there has been
zero any nobody's been threatened, No family members have been threatened, No you
know, why are tapping or any of that sort of stuff to any of
these people. They've been completely unfettered by by coming forward the way they have.
What the course is very encouraging and should also serve as a motivator for
other people that might be on the fence that have things to add to the
research with their involvement in these secret projects, and so I would encourage them
to come forward to What I think is interesting too, is now that we
are a decade or so away from from that, the newer of people getting
involved with this. It seems like it kind of comes in ways where you
have these new generations of people getting interested in the subject once they find out
there's a lot more behind the scenes that they didn't know about, right,
And it's interesting to me all of the people who aren't aware of, you
know, Disclosure Project, that people getting involved or the witnesses. And even
when I had met you, you provided me with a box full of DVDs
and videos which I gave out and got it. How was a friend of
mine helped me get some into the libraries, but I wasn't aware of,
ok, A four hour videos that you provided. There was a lot more
interviews that Greer went out and was able to get, and it's important stuff
mostly you can get online, but people really need to really take a look
at and look at all the documents that are still on the Disclosure Project site
to see just a number of witnesses and the high level of credibility of all
of these witnesses, right, absolutely, Thanks for highlighting that, Alejandro,
and like I should have mentioned a few minutes ago, it was okay.
Prior to me engaging with the disclosure projects and being invited to be on that
stuff, I've never had any what I could call, you know, close
encounters with the phenomenon per se. You know, I've done a lot of
desert camping and you know, been outside certainly looking at the sky a lot.
So I've seen unusual things in the sky like I think many of us
have, but nothing that I would you know, conclusively call an extraterrestrial contact
or a true UFO siding like other people you know have experienced. So for
me, you know, my belief, I suppose you'd say, has has
come from scales being tipped sometimes, I'll say, with the credibility of these
witnesses, especially the military people or airline pilots, you know, people that
have nothing to gain, everything to lose, you might say, by coming
forward. So the weight of that evidence, I guess you might say for
me, has been what's really tipped my scales into becoming a believer in these
subjects, you know, against short of my own up close and personal experiences.
So yeah, so I, like you just said, it's it's important.
I think that people new and old to these fields become more familiar with
Disclosure Project witnesses and others. And it's just tremendous resource, YouTube and all
the things on the Internet that that material is so much more available and easily
accessible for the person to start their own research inquiry into these subjects. Now,
how do you feel about the aftermath? You touched a little bit on
what I felt at the time too, And what really inspired me was the
lack of the media really running with this, because that's what got me motivated.
I was a newshound at the time. I was always curious why UFOs
weren't a bigger topic, and when I asked, you know, my people
in the field of journalism, you know, they would all say, well,
you know, if there was some real evidence, if we had something,
we'd run with it, because that would be the greatest story ever.
You know. The disclosure guys handed them this story and they didn't run with
it. And I found there's more to it that we got to work a
lot harder to get this story out. Now, one aspect and I think
doctor Gray talks about this, is that disclosure happens. They provided disclosure,
a lot of credible people, a lot of military people came out and taught,
and I see that, and I kind of agree with that. On
the other hand, there's a lot of people out there who feel that,
not disappointed with, I think necessarily the people who put on the disclosure project,
but disappointed in thinking we need to really shove this in the media and
government space more to get things rolling. And they feel that a little disappointed
in that it didn't have the impact that it should have, maybe just because
I'm always into the you know, everything is the way it should be,
and I feel that it did get a lot of people involved and it had
a great impact. How do you feel about that? Well, yeah,
I like what you just said. And here's my version of that. The
world is perfect, exactly the way it is, including those efforts to make
it better. I take a lot of a lot of refuge in that idea
when I get frustrated about the pace of social change and especially the UFO disclosure
issue. Well, let's see, I feel the term I've used and heard
other peoples used is kind of the soft disclosure idea, an idea of soft
disclosure, meaning it hasn't really happened in the way that Stephen Greer or Steve
Bassett, who I'm sure your listeners know of, or others that have made
efforts for that kind of formal governmental level disclosure. So that may never happen
in my opinion, and perhaps I'm wondering, as I've had, you know,
a decade now, like you said, to kind of continue to be
steeped in these ideas and consider it more. Perhaps that's that's a more appropriate
approach, at least for Western societies. A lot of people have their own
opinions, of course, and myself as well speculate about the consequences of a
hard disclosure to contrast with the idea of the soft disclosure. If Obama or
any government official of high rank, you know, interrupts this news broadcast for
an announcement of what's been kept secret in area fifty one for all these years,
you know, that might unnecessarily cause an awful lot of strife. And
so perhaps people that are in charge of these things, whoever they might be.
I have considered that very very carefully and concluded that doing it the way
perhaps it's been happening in the last five years or so longer, perhaps through
television program documentaries and through fictional Hollywood movies and then that sort of thing.
That that is a is a more you know, appropriate and likely strategically effective
way to finally get this information out in a way that wouldn't necessarily cause disruption
to social systems and beliefs, especially religion and governments, et cetera. So
I guess I've become a lot more comfortable with the idea that it didn't quite
happen the way that we were imagining back in two thousand and one or so
with the efforts and disclosure project. Also, I want to mention that that's
that particular event May nine, two thousand and one, isn't the only time
efforts like that have been conducted. You're gonna have to help them in the
history, have to help them with the history a little bit, because I
don't know exactly the names or the dates, but I know Steve Bassett has
made his own efforts to do that a couple of times at that same venue,
the National Press Club, during Washington, DC, and and long prior
to that, well actually since then, who was it John Podesta right,
Leslie Kane and others did a and that was a few years after Steve Greer's
effort there in two thousand and one. I don't know the exact date.
That one, I think got a little bit more attention. Do you know
the date or details of that one. That's because, yeah, that one
was in conjunction with the Sci Fi Channel, So that's why it got a
little more attention. It's funny because I write about these things a lot,
especially the Podesta one, but I always get mixed up on date. But
let's see, November two thousand and seven sounds about right, two thousand and
seven. I want a guest to so. In other words, the media,
national media has had more than a few opportunities to to cover this story
that, like you said, was just practically handed to them. Because you
know, an issue that you and I and others that study these things closely
consider is what would be the mechanism that would really would on societal level,
top down technically apparently effectively, as it happened so many years, you know,
quell quash interest, the ridicule curtain, laughter curtain. Santon Friedman likes
to call it, and I'm very very fascinated by that element. You know,
if if somebody asked me, you know, of all the related subjects
that pertain to UFOs extraterrestrial contact, my my area of acute interest, I
guess you might say, is is that the sociological ramifications and implications and how
the true believers versus the ardent skeptics and everything in between, and how you
paradigms and belief systems are shaped and they change over time, and the influences
you know, that cause people to change their beliefs about things, especially something
as significant again i'll say, as what apparently the UFO phenomena represents for us
as the human species. So again I don't really have answers to that,
you know, the Robertson panel nineteen fifty one. I think listeners will be
familiar with what that's about. And CIA's efforts allegedly to manipulate public opinion using
media like the Disney Corporation and Madison Avenue advertising agencies, et cetera, to
to you know, too poo these subjects and not take them seriously, which,
if that's the case, has apparently been very very effective up until maybe
the last five or ten years or so is as opinions seemed to be changing
about that, the opinion of the public that this is a taboo subject or
not. And again, you know, if I were in charge of how
these things plan, I wouldn't necessarily call for the the the formal disclosure like
the Disclosure Project and other efforts like that have done. Kind of circling back
to what I said a minute ago, I would call at this point or
any point, I suppose for a lot more public resources devoted to studying these
things if given the imports and the implications what they apparently are. At this
point, it just seems like so little public monies, even private monies,
resources intellect has been devoted to this, And so I would I would like
to see a lot more being brought to bear on these questions and start answering
them in an intelligent forum, free from ridicules and free from what has been
obviously the biggest obstacle thus far. Yeah, I don't know. I have
a positive outlook in that, you know, I it was I think it's
more than just one person. It's been quoted a lot, but I know
Chopenhauer hower it said, you know three truths or all truths passed through three
stages. It's ridicule, than opposed, and then before it's accepted as self
evident. And I think those stages are so subtle that there are not lines
where all of a sudden it goes from ridicule to opposition to self evidence.
That where we've kind of been muddled in this ridicule opposition stage. But slowly
the self evident stage is coming, and at least in my view from over
the years, it seems like more and more of these things are being accepted
as self evident. And I think a case in point would be how well
accepted something like the Ancient Aliens television show is, which is doing very well.
Yes, I think it's a start this fourth season, just this week,
I think, yeah, And that's just done a tremendous amount. I
think, of course, as you know and many of the listeners know,
I'm sure that there's been a tremendous amount of History channel, Discovery channel,
Learning channel style documentaries over the years, and I noticed something self. Anyway,
I haven't checked this out with other people that pay attention to the way
the media portrays these things. Sometime around ninety five, I'm going to guess
or excuse me, two thousand and five, the tone of those programs seem
to change very distinctly at very kind of a d mark point almost the way
I think about it, in approximately two thousand and five, where it went
from very speculative language. You know, we suppose these ideas and you know,
allegedly this person had such a thing, and you know, that kind
of language, to a much more definitive you know, these things are happening,
and this is how it is, and almost to the other end of
the pendulum swing. I feel with some of the programs that I've watched the
ancient alien stuff, especially since so much of that stuff is new even to
the veteran researchers. I'm sure you know, all these new sites, archaeological
digs that have been uncovered, and you know, artifacts that are being discovered,
is just an enormous amount of brand new material that I think, for
me anyway, and I'm sure for lots of others, is brand new stuff
and kind of takes me back to where it feels like, Wow, we
just need to be devoting some more of our society's resources to investigating these things,
you know, beyond a little bit that's already being done. That's certainly
not to take away from the work of people like Georgio to Cocolis, who's
executive producer. I think of ancient aliens and others. That list is long,
and Michael Primo and a lot of these people that have been delving into
the archaeological aspects of contact, which you know, not to skip around too
much. But I think it's you know, the skeptics that seem to get
an awful lot of media airtime will often kind of make the innuendo or make
the comparison that, you know, people that are believers in UFO contact,
you know, perhaps have just seen close encounters too many times or other other
things in the movies. And I think the the you know, biggest trump
card to that counter argument is, of course, look at all this stuff
in ancient history that you know, people making those cave drawings or the murals
on the walls of churches, for example, not too many people watching Steven
Spielberg films back then, so so in other words, and those are the
things that have survived. I think it's another piece to remember when we start
examining archaeological evidence of EAT contact is you know, Catholic Church and you know,
Library of Alexandria burning, and these are just the artifacts that have been
discovered and have survived efforts perhaps to make them go away. So in other
words, it's a lot to be discovered there and a lot of interpreted.
And so that's where I feel a lot of the resources should be devoted to
understanding all those aspects that are right. Yeah, and I agree with you
about the television shows in around two thousand and five because and I think it
started with the History Channel, because all of a sudden, it used to
be, you know, you would the television shows always had to have skeptics
throughout or order the bunkers really throughout, and they would end with the de
bunkers, wrap the whole thing up. But all of a sudden that was
gone, and all of a sudden it was devoid of skeptics are debunkers at
all, although you know, because a lot of researchers are already skeptic.
I mean they're already you know, presenting things and here's what we know,
here's the evidence. They're very fair already without needing, you know, a
third party to come in and say that a blow it all off. So
I have recognized that change as well, and that's it's a great thing,
and it certainly to me demonstrates a move in the right direction to hopefully,
like you said, we will get more resources to research these very important things.
But I think one of the things we have to remember is in any
field, there are a lot of areas that are very important. Even cancer
research runs into this problem where the research doesn't happen because there's no profit that
can be gained. And so for people, especially in the public sector,
in order for them to devote anience is they've got to see some profit that
will result from it down the road. Very good point, and let's let's
you know, let's put in a good word for scientific skepticism. I think
for me anyway, for a long time, I had a very difficult time
understanding the distinction between debunking and skepticism. And I'm not sure in this moment
I can speak well to the distinctions between the two. But like you're saying,
typically prior to maybe two thousand and five or so, news shows or
documentaries would go grab the debunkers, would I would guess more so than than
a true skeptic. And so you know, scientific skepticism and tools like that,
of course have a very important and prominent role in UFO research. Of
course, it's a difficult feel to study, as you know, and so
I'm certainly not saying let's not be very skeptical and cautious about the research.
And you know, we could talk more about that perhaps, So yeah,
So I'm glad to see, like you're a great that media is taking a
different look at this, and I really am so pleased. You know,
Larry King, Larry King Live Show has done many, many programs on the
UFO subjects, and I think, you know, at least in that kind
of vein of mainstream media, did a pretty fair job about showing both sides
and didn't you know, like you say in those programs with a kind of
a smirk. So I congratulate him and others like him who have taken this
subject on, you know, as you would expect journalists would think to do.
And I don't know to what degree he had to kind of twist the
arms of his producers or whatever to be able to do those programs, but
it was great to see so many going back so far. I think Steve
Greers, one of first doctor Stephen gears first media appearances was on UFO.
I'm sorry, on Larry King Live Back Live in the Nevada Deserts as I
recall that program sometime in the mid nineties. So let's certainly give credit where
credit is due to the media professionals that have acted responsibly, I'd say,
in taking a solid look at this without the kind of obligatory skeptical take,
which, like we both degree, seems to be changing thankfully. Yeah.
I agree with you with Larry King, and hopefully now that he's retired,
someone will be able to get an interview with him or we'll be able to
ask those questions. Was it difficult for you to get the producers to agree
to these shows? What was your interest? Why were you so interested in?
What did he find most compelling? And there were times where, you
know, the debunker, he's arguing with the debunker, not the apologist.
He's telling the bunker very ridiculous. Yeah, so that was really exciting,
and hopefully another news person will pick that up. Yeah, and it's interesting
and I wonder if we could even between us kind of just brainstorm a bit
of a list of celebrities like that who seem to have their own, you
know, personal personal interest in this and aren't shy about you know, coming
forward and their media occurrences and their public personas you know, lending their credibility
or lending credibility via their celebrity to the subject. One that immediately comes to
mind, of course, is dan Acroyd. That's a lot of people might
know. He produced a video called what is It? Dan Acrid Unplugged on
UFOs, I think is the title. I was very impressed when I saw
that he just sits in front of a camera and speaks very semporaneously the viewer
of the impression that he's very well versed on these subjects, and I'd like
to see him step stuff out more in the public eye. I know he's
been invited to the Open Minds conference in the past, and I think he
was going to speak at mouf on or something once too that didn't come together.
I don't recall who else can you think of off the top of your
head celebrities that have endorsed the subject. No, that's a good point that
you make about dan Aykroyd. I interviewed him recently too, and he is
like any of the top researchers. He's so plugged into all of this.
He knows everything going on. When I asked him, it was just after
by Hapkinson passed and he was talking about that. He was aware of that,
let's see. But yeah, Sammy Hagar recently writ and shy away from
it. There is also uh the lead singer and I can't remember Tom DeLong
the lead singer of Link. Yes, yes, a big Steve geerfan,
those that that band. Yeah really, yeah, he's really into it and
they own them Best Shoes, which has vegan shoes. I get. So
we doubly appreciate him because at Open Minds because we have a few vegetarians there.
So yeah, these are just a few, but they're very brave about
coming forward and not shying away, which is which is great. And just
like with the military and industrial corporate witnesses with the Disclosure Project that I would
like to think paved the way for other people to come forward. These these
celebrities, like we're mentioning, hopefully we'll do the same for other other celebrities
to follow suit as well. Oh and I was surprised to Gourney Weaver.
She really came out when they she was in the movie Paul and they asked
her about it, and this was in another country, and she was really
just like, the government's hiding stuff. I'm sure they have recovered crash discs
and they really need to tell us what's going on. I mean, she
was really into this stuff. Interesting. Yeah, well, as people know,
she's the star of the horror film Alien, So she's an interesting type
of celebrity to come forward on these issues. Not exactly a celebrity, but
another journalist I'd like to acknowledge George Knapp, who is always coast to coast
program is time tremendous. He's but fourteen Emmy's I think he's one not on
that subject. He's certainly a journalist of eating the pack on being very open
minded of course. Right, Yeah, she's a journalist really who largely well
not just him on his own, but a large part of it is him.
But certainly it's his news organization k l AS that brought Area fifty one
to the public, right, and they also brought the oh now I'm blanking
out on his name, but Bob Lazare story to the public. But also
so they were instrumental in that. And yeah, he's a great mainstream reporter
who's not upfraid to tackle the issue and does on a regular basis. Yeah,
I really love his style. He has been really great. Another journalist
that I met during the Disclosure Project Leslie Kane, I know you know her
book. She was interviewed on the Stephen Colbert program with her book, right
I think the title of her book right now. But it's an interesting companion
study, i'd say to the Disclosure Project because it goes into military witnesses,
and she traveled around and met some of the people that in other countries,
France specifically, that have kind of been doing their own version. That's something
else we need to mention too, Alejandro is even though the United States has
been a little slow reducing formally secret information, boy, as you know,
probably better than I do. In the last world, would you say five
years or so, what is it twenty? I think upwards of twenty countries
have come forward very publicly as far as I know, and just laid it
all out. Yeah. Some of them more along the lines of the US
like, oh see, here's our files. There's not much there, but
some of them very active in saying, yeah, here's our files, and
we think they're interesting and we're we think there's something real to this phenomenon too,
such as France and Argentina and Chile and quite a few other countries that
are taking it very seriously. Right just at the Open Minds conference, that
general from Chile, you know, was calling for international joint efforts to pool
resources to study these phenomenas. So, you know, congratulations to the courage
and vision of people like him. Ricardo Bermirez. Is that his name,
er Mute Bermudez. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've got about ten
minutes last night. Do you want to really get in to kind of what
your main energy has been spended on for since I've known you, which is
a really exciting thing. I think it was first called, correct me if
I'm wrong, the Rogue Valley Metaphysical Library, but a library, and now
it looks like it's the Rogue Valley Free Media Exchange. So tell me about
how this started and what this is all about, oh Ale Hunter, thank
you for asking this. Certainly is my passion in life is to share information
around these subjects, particularly the UFO information, with as many people as are
interested. And so, following my work with Steve Ger, the Disclosure Project
came back home to Ashland, Oregon, and just you know, it was
impelled, I guess should say, to begin an organization that would provide resources
for people to you know, continue their own study. So Steve Ger spoke
here right around that time, probably two thousand and two, can't remember the
exact date. Of six hundred people came to that lecture at the Southern Oregon
University School here in Ashland, and boy, that really kind of gave me
some encouragement that there was a lot of interest in this area, Southern Oregon,
enough to you know, support us founding a nonprofit lending library. So,
boy, long story short, how can I do that? Boy?
It was It was one of those kind of experiences in when you get really
clear about what your intentions are, you know, just get out of the
way and let the universe support you. And no time in my life have
I better had a better example of that is when we first founded the Lending
Library and approximately two thousand and one there it was just easy and fun and
tremendously exciting to make that happen. So the library has grown through donations primarily,
although we acquire some things on our own with a small acquisition's budget.
We boast I guess I can say the largest collection of UFO related study material
publicly available in the United States. That right, perhaps the the Roswell Library.
If anybody gets to the Rossbelt Museum, make sure you kind of peek
behind the back desk there. When I was there several years ago. If
I hadn't just happened to see the sign, I would have missed it.
There's an incredible research library there in Roswell, so ours is on par with
that. Wow, And and we welcome anybody that wants to, you know,
avail themselves to those resources to come and be a member and check it
out. So we operate the lending library. And then other part of our
organization does you know, events, discussion groups, lectures, of course,
both in our own facility here in Ashland, but we also use other spaces
to accommodate larger audiences at the college. And also we're in Medford, Oregon,
the larger neighboring community cool so and then now it's kind of this is
an interesting idea where it's kind of a book exchange. So if you want
to borrow a book, everything's free, and it's something people can come in
and I mean for the people out there and ask, I mean what a
resource to go work? I mean I got a wall pull of books here
and they weren't free. Let me make that distinction. Thanks for the opportunity.
So there's really kind of three elements of our organizations. Okay, the
physical lending library with a focus on the UFO phenomenon of course, and videos
as well. It's not just the books, audios and videos that supplement that
also, So that's kind of our core is the metaphysical library. Then events
of course, like I mentioned. And then about when it was that four
years ago or so, we took over an operation that another man had started
here in Nationland called time. It was called Ashland Media Exchange. We changed
the name to Rogue Balley Free Media Exchange when we took it over. So
that is is kind of like a library. It's a book exchange, so
people bring books on any subject and exchange them for books on any subject.
I guess is how you could say it. So that's really and then and
we skim out, you know, a small percentage one or two percent of
that stuff. We run through a software program that we subscribe to that enables
us to list some of the items that have value on Amazon and other online
book retailers like that. So that's what's paying a large chunk of our overhead
actually is the generosity of the Ashling community donating materials to us that we can
sell, that you know, base of the rent basically. But then everything
else that doesn't sell, which again is the majority ninety five or better percent
of that stuff just goes out back on the shelves for free. So that's
that's not metaphysically or paranormal spiritual material per se. That's all subjects fiction,
non fiction, and all subjects in between there. So that's and we use
that kind of as a way to you know, well, that word metaphysics.
If I had to do it all over again, I think I would
have picked a synonymous term then, the metaphysics because as you and other people
that have studied this for a while unfortunately realize that term has baggage, I
like to say, right, And so the media exchange, which is served
as a great vehicle to bring people into our storefront that otherwise might have hesitancy
coming into something calling itself a metaphysical library. And we're very very sensitive,
like I said at the beginning of this conversation that it's a it's a delicate,
very delicate place that I have a lot of regard for people who are
taking those first nervous steps outside of their comfort zones and exploring ideas beyond what
the mainstream might call, you know, acceptable. So we very very diligently
and purposely keep our facility, you know, clean and free of the types
of things that might typically be associated with a metaphysical bookstore, metaphysical library.
So it's very you know, it looks very much like a public library here
in terms of the decora and how we present the material, like I say,
in a great effort to keep it very safe for newcomers to come here
and feel that it is a welcoming environment. That's uh, And we're not
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity again to explain what we do here. We're
certainly not pushing any particular agenda, and that's what people really appreciate most.
I think about the things we offer, it's it's the smorgess brogram information.
We don't sensor the things to put out on their shelves, and to whatever
degree we do, it's it's it's a pragmatic thing about you know, condition
hardcover, soft cover and donated books that have underlining and all that kind of
stuff. So anything that gets not included in the Metaphysical collection is for reasons
like that. So we just put it out a that make people, give
people the opportunity to decide on their own And and again it's it's subjects beyond
UFO thing, of course, all aspects of metaphysical studies and and to some
degree theological studies. Although one of our kind of credos or directives I guess
policies is because of limited resources and limited shelf space, we try not to
duplicate materials that can easily be found at a public library, at our church
library, other places in town, so so we keep our resources focused on
things that aren't available elsewhere. I also want to mention, because I know
that most of your listeners don't live anywhere near Ashland, Oregon, that we
are happy to provide certain materials out of the lending library to researchers you know,
around the world. So our website is our VML dot org. And
if any of the listeners are looking for anything in particular, especially some of
the more difficult to find UFO books and videos, we're more than happy to
share that stuff with researchers. Okay, great, So I can just imagine,
especially if you're not covering we're keeping the books that are available at a
regular library, or just what a unique collection you must have. You know,
I try not to brag about it. Well, boy, it sure
is and I feel very, very privileged to be the curator with other staff.
It's not just me, of course, that makes this thing happen.
Most of the volunteer staff that keeps the library and the media exchange open and
staffs are events. So yeah, it's been a great privilege. You know,
a lot of the books we've got in a kind of roundabout way through
connection that Daniel Sheen gave to us. About two thousand and three, I
took an exciting trip down to twenty nine Palms, California and acquired the research
library at the late UFO researcher Gabriel Green, who some of your listeners might
remember from the nineteen fifties. It was quite an active proponent and researcher and
spokesperson for the UFO field. Some pois that was a really interesting and remains
it continues to be a really interesting archive of mature we took over similar coming
back from one of the Lawflin conferences. I forget which year that was.
I was able to acquire William Cooper's research library right after he of Behold a
Pale Horse, and that's an interesting collection as well that we were able to
take over. So those are the two largest I think off the top of
my head researchers libraries that we were able to acquire. But then in my
own and traveling to these conferences and people know that we collect the stuff,
we get donations from people around the country. Actually, it's so fun to
come in in the mornings and sometimes find a box handwritten address somebody that met
me at a conference or found our website or borrowed books from us in the
past and feels that they want to reciprocate, and you know, here comes
a fun box full of new material that we get to go through. It's
it's an incredibly fun you know easter ey contact sometimes called it, to discover
new materials, and boy, there's so much stuff out there. And I
would encourage anybody that's you know, new into this to just recognize there's just
a tremendous amount of material. It's not it's not for lack of study materials
that people learn about this stuff. There's just so much stuff out there,
and you know, it certainly goes with that saying. I hope I mentioned
that well en up in a minute ago wheat from chaff. There's a lot
of you know, sex experience. Is that the right word information out there?
So discernment is the bottom line here. And I always remind myself,
you know, once you think you got it all figured out, just remind
yourself that you likely don't. And you need to keep open minded about it
as you continue your your inquiry into these subjects, because it's a it's a
deep, deep well of information and something else I'd like to say, and
I think are ours almost stuff. This might be a good thing to close
with. Boy, you know, never take away the mystery if in any
time that they are selling, you know, tickets to go kick the saucer's
tires in every fifty one or something. I'd like to be first in line
to buy those tickets. Camping out of our night perhaps, But in some
ways I don't necessarily want to have that mystery taken away from it, you
know what I mean. I can see that you're one of the first people
who have been brave enough I think to admit that that I've talked to.
But you know, it's a very honest opinion that, you know. Yeah,
although I am optimistic that it seems that with ever great discovery, there's
another horde of questions that come avalanching down on us. So the exciting thing
about discovery is I think it's never ending, and the more discovery there is,
there's more to discover and right, which is wonderful and you know,
funny enough, I'd love the term metaphysical. So it's unfortunate that the baggage,
like you said, you know, the whole idea beyond physics is great,
but it does have the baggage. And I don't think I've told you.
I've boughten a couple of books, least one or two online, I
think through abes, books that have had the RVML stamp on them. Oh
really, yeah, so, which is really funny. Yeah, So I've
gotten a couple of those. And it's always tragic to me when I hear
people who don't like to crack books, because really, I don't think you
can get to the heart of this phenomenon, especially because it's roots in the
fifties and sixties and all of that, and those amazing books that were printed
back then. I don't think you can get to the root of a lot
of this because even in other metaphysical or theosophical or paranormal work that was done
in the twenties or the thirties, those are all in books. So if
you don't read Butch, you're missing out on a lot, right. I'm
glad you put in a plug for words on the page. You know,
Internet research is one thing, attending conferences another. But for you've really got
to spend your time, you know, in the stuf ak, so to
speak, familiarizing yourself with all the background like you said that exists there.
It's a deep, deep well, like we both agree. Well, yep,
our time is up. I want to thank you for all that you
have done, all that you will do, all that you currently do on
all of this. I think it's important. So I was very excited that
you agreed to come on the show to highlight all of this because I think
you have a great perspective, you have an insight, and you're an important
part of all of this. So thank you so much for being on the
show. Oh, Alejandro, it's my pleasure. I'm just a light of
that you invited me and I want to just less time put in a plug
for Open Minds again. Openminds dot Tv. Just really encourage people to consider
Mike plans to attend the twenty thirteen conference. It's a tremendous experience that you
won't regret. And I'm sure you'll be there yet again. Oh yeah,
look forward to it every year. Great, well, thank you so much.
You're very welcome, Alejandro, and thank you for the work that you're
doing and helping spread knowledge about these important subjects. I really pass off to
your kudos. It's a great pleasure. So be sure and read your books,
people, because it's very important. If you want the whole story,
you got to read books. I'm sorry some of you are like, oh
man, I want to read a book, but you know, you really
got in there, and so many of you who already know this, you
really got to read those books. There's so much great stuff out there,
and OURVML dot org is a place you can go to see some of that.
So thank you to Jordan is an absolutely great guy. Next year at
the Congress if you see him say hi, I give him a hug.
He loves hugs because he's just a really cool guy. Anyway, we are
out of time. Thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget to
visit open Minds dot tv for your latest UFO news and UFO Daily News where
I have some of the videos up of the news coverage of the Congress.
And next week we'll be back with Linc. It's high because it will be
the day before the fifteenth anniversary of the Phoenix Lights. Talk to you soon, people,