WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:38.280 Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, how 2 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.439 are you come on in? Have a seat. As you're listening to this, 3 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:51.479 I will be climbing the stairway of many pyramids and buildings at polank Hopefully 4 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:57.679 we can climb the pyramid of the Inscriptions, which is where Lord Pacall is 5 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:04.120 one of the most famous Mayan rule of the Maya dynasties. I guess you 6 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:11.239 could call it that. And we have as our guide doctor Edwin Barnhardt, 7 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:15.400 and we've been listening to ed for a couple of years now. Describe his 8 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:21.280 research and his work. One of the fascinating things about him is the fact 9 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:30.079 that he excavated and surveyed Polanki and what can only be described as a groundbreaking 10 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.799 view of Mayan cities from a surveyed relief point of view. And that means 11 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:41.879 that you survey the buildings and you find new buildings, and you also provide 12 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:49.359 elevation for the local hills and perhaps mountains that are associated with a civic area 13 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:57.040 or a ruined city. So again, you know, we're on our annual 14 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.640 Mexico tour, and so that's what will be That's what we're doing as you're 15 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:09.159 listening to this, and I promise to post some unusual photographs of portions of 16 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:19.319 our tour. Most notably, we're going to be visiting Villa Hermosa, Mexico, 17 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.080 and that is the home of Leventa, one of the oldest omech sites 18 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:28.360 in the world. And there's this outdoor museum I keep talking about. I've 19 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.000 been wanting to see it for well, I want to think, like fifteen 20 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:36.360 twenty years, just have never been able to get out there. And so 21 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.800 we're going to be visiting this outdoor museum in Leventa, and this is a 22 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:53.039 home to some of the most unusual carved what they call altars and statuary in 23 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:58.080 a huge setting. Now I don't know why it's outdoors. It's pretty hot 24 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.879 down there, that might be one reason. And it's shaded outdoors, but 25 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:07.639 there's also an indoor portion as well. But so I'm going to be photographing 26 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:13.719 this. I got this new camera, a DJI camera thinking about GoPro, 27 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:19.199 but Gopro's kind of fading a little bit, and the DGI quality of the 28 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:25.319 image is just astounding. So I'll be recording close ups. I have my 29 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:31.400 selfie stick. You can't get you can't touch these monuments anymore, but you 30 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:36.759 can get really close to them. And I'm very curious about how they were 31 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:43.719 carved, because it's almost like they were created for molds, that's how smooth 32 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.520 the figures are within the stone work, and most of them are in carved 33 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:55.319 in basalt stone, very very hard stone. The other site area, the 34 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.080 other portion of these museum, of this museum, is these out door these 35 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:05.240 heads. We don't have a clue who they are. There's no writing. 36 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.960 We really don't know a hell of a lot about the Omec because we've never 37 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:15.960 found a burial, we have no skeletory remains, we don't have artifacts that 38 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:21.240 are identifying rulers or kings, but we know that they're very, very old, 39 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:28.839 and so that's that's really one of the highlights of the trip for me, 40 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:34.720 is visiting Leventa and looking at these ruins, these artifacts. We're also 41 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:40.959 going to go to the what's remaining of the pyramids, and it's funny because 42 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:46.839 they I've heard a number of different times that there's a huge underground complex of 43 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:54.360 tunnels and pathways that you don't see, and this is another area that just 44 00:04:54.519 --> 00:05:00.720 is screaming for ground penetrating radar and things like that. It's just challenge for 45 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:09.000 the Mexican government or the archaeological community ina to develop the funding for that. 46 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:15.279 So who knows. So anyhow, as you're listening to today's program, imagine 47 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:20.399 me climbing the pyramids. And I'm not rubbing it into your face. I'm 48 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.639 just wanting to know that's what we're doing as you're listening to this. So 49 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:29.519 this was recorded a few weeks ago. So yeah, we're doing our Mexico 50 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:34.720 tour, all right. Today's program is on death, so we're talking about 51 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:43.800 the process of dying and death. And my guest today really is unique in 52 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.639 a way because she's what they call a death doula. Now, when my 53 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:54.079 son was born, we had a birthing doula, who is a woman trained 54 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:59.720 in the proceeding, the different phases that a woman goes through as she's ready 55 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:05.120 to to deliver, the contractions, what to do with that, and in 56 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:10.839 many cases you can have I mean, a doula can help you have a 57 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:15.920 birth, a natural birth. In my case because at the time my wife 58 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:24.360 had a condition, the birth was at a birthing center with the doula and 59 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.360 a nurse practitioner. We really didn't want to have a birth in a hospital. 60 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.120 And I'll talk about that some other time. But a death dula is 61 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:42.160 a very rare person. This is somebody who has discovered and researched and has 62 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:47.600 been trained in the old systems of passing. And this is understanding what the 63 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:53.399 body does as it is passing, as the body is dying, off the 64 00:06:53.480 --> 00:07:00.639 various sensitivities of the person, what the sounds are, how they consume food, 65 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:06.759 how they communicate. And this is something that we have lost in our 66 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:13.680 modern society when we are passing, When we are dying, it's usually in 67 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:19.079 the hospital and it's not surrounded by loved ones. And because some people just 68 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.000 think of it's like I don't want to be around somebody who's dying, but 69 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:29.120 it's it's very very critical as you are passing to have loved ones come and 70 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:33.120 show up and kind of say hi, what's going on, and say goodbye. 71 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.959 And this is something that you'll hear in today's interview, which I was 72 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:45.240 surprised at, is the is what are how our ancestors processed a loved one's 73 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.480 passing. In many ways, it was a celebration, It was an annoyance. 74 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:56.000 It was an acknowledgment of their life. And in the earlier phases of 75 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:01.279 death, you know, you're more coherent and you can acknowledge pece people and 76 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:07.000 communicate. But you know, the further into the dying process that you go, 77 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:13.120 less communication abilities you have, you might not be able to talk. 78 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:18.720 You may only be able to open your eyes and acknowledge somebody that's important too, 79 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:24.439 And that's something we'll talk about today. So interesting program. The books 80 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:31.000 called Death Nesting The Heart Centered Practices of a Death Doula, and my guest 81 00:08:31.040 --> 00:09:09.360 today is Anne Marie Cappel. So much happening in the world right now. 82 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:15.720 We look at the Middle East and there is tragedy, simply tragic what's going 83 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:22.120 on over there, and children are being killed, hundreds of people are dying 84 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:28.639 and it is sad and it brings up the whole death process. And today 85 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:35.159 we're talking about something that we need to really grasp onto with greater understanding, 86 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:39.360 which is the death process. My guest today is Anne Marie Cappell. She 87 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:46.600 is a death doula, community death care educator, nursing assistant, and she's 88 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:52.080 a ranky teacher and a meditation teacher. She has written a fascinating book called 89 00:09:52.679 --> 00:10:01.120 Death Nesting, The heart centered Practices of a death Doula. It's funny because 90 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.679 in the West, we don't appreciate the process of dying like our ancestors did. 91 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.879 And we're going to learn today not only how the ancestors, our ancestors 92 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:22.399 processed the role of assisting in someone's passing, but this wonderful book gets into 93 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.840 what our body goes through when we are dying. So Anne, Marie, 94 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.600 welcome to Destiny. Great to have you. Thank you, Cliff. I'm 95 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:39.039 very happy to speak with you. I have to ask why or how did 96 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.759 you get involved in this work because it's not for I mean, a lot 97 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.399 of people would say, do you have an aptitude for this or is it 98 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.600 something where it's like, you know what. I was reading a book and 99 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.000 I thought, I want to learn more about that. So tell us a 100 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:05.440 little bit about your background. Yeah, I you know, I suppose well, 101 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.440 as a child, I always had a fascination with death. And it's 102 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.600 so funny. So when you ask people who are adults who work in the 103 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.279 field of death and dying, a lot of times they have had an interest 104 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.399 in death since they were very little, and it maybe has shown showed up 105 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.720 in different ways, like maybe they liked spooky books, or maybe they liked 106 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:31.360 ghosts, or they liked witches or they like And so I always had that 107 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:37.440 when I was little, But I really was impacted by caring for my grandfather 108 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.080 when I was quite young. He came to live with my family and I 109 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:46.440 when I was about twelve years old, and he had Alzheimer's, and I 110 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:52.200 saw the patients that it required. I saw the stomach that it took, 111 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.600 because you know, there were trips to the bathroom that were kind of messy. 112 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.879 I saw how my parents struck with finding care for him at a you 113 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.480 know, all hours of the day, and also the humor in it as 114 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.519 well, that you could be going through all of this and be having a 115 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:18.480 really emotional experience and then also the funny things that would come out of it, 116 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:24.720 and and so it normalized it for me. So caring for for an 117 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:31.879 elderly individual who was losing their faculties in many different ways, and the emotional 118 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.360 hardship of that, but then also the lightness to it and that this was 119 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:46.200 natural and this was this was what was happening, And so I what what 120 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.639 really happened? Is. As time went on and I was an event coordinator, 121 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:58.320 so I was doing fashion shows and music festivals and weddings, and it 122 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:03.919 was all very high speed, high show kind of activity. And it started 123 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.600 feeling more and more and more empty to me. And you know, I 124 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.159 wanted it to be a bigger show, a better show. I wanted people 125 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.080 to be happier. I wanted, you know, all of these things that 126 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.320 were really I mean, you can't always get all of that was feeling very 127 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:26.399 empty, and it was actually my work with a homeless man who I took 128 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:33.039 under my wing. He was eighty nine years old, and I started caring 129 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:37.879 for him, and I fell in love with doing this work with him and 130 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:48.440 learning about him, and also just the understanding that someone's way of living could 131 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.000 be so different than mine and yet that can be okay too. So not 132 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:58.679 to push my values and judgments on this person. He actually liked living on 133 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.759 the streets. He just wanted a place to go when it was very cold. 134 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.799 So not only was I learning how to care for this gentleman and he 135 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.159 accepted the care, he loved it, but I also it was also a 136 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.759 lesson in really community death care, in embracing the way that people are so 137 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:22.639 that they can have the best possible death that fits with their life. And 138 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:31.519 after doing that, I knew this was my path and I worked with a 139 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.279 crossover event. That's kind of fun. It's the thirteen Indigenous grandmothers arrived in 140 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:43.519 town and I was the lead coordinator. So we had these incredibly powerful elders 141 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:50.200 and my event coordinating skills, and so it really was the crossover event where 142 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.279 it just solidified. I'm like, I got it, I know it. 143 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.000 I'd like to get a copy of an audio or video of that elder's gathering. 144 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.960 That sounds very cool. Was it on? Was the theme on passing 145 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:05.639 death? No, the thirteen Indigenous grandmothers were touring. I don't know if 146 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.240 they still are because a lot of them have become quite aged or have died. 147 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:13.320 I don't know if others have taken their place. This was a mon 148 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.440 Pillier, Vermont. It was not recorded, but they were just wreading the 149 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:24.600 message of caring for our planet and listening to excellent and the importance of sacred 150 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:30.399 water. It was really hard, right, what is it about the Western 151 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:35.960 culture that considers death a failure? Why we do we have I mean, 152 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:43.639 we still have this problem and I have had speakers in conferences who are experts, 153 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:48.639 like Levigne and some other people that have spoken on the process of dying. 154 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.879 But it seems like we want to be young forever. We are so 155 00:15:54.200 --> 00:16:00.559 challenged to die. Why why do you think that is? That's really big 156 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.759 question. Well give me, give me the short answer, because you're working 157 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:08.960 in this field and in this book Death Nasty, and we're going to talk 158 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.799 about that. I want to talk, you know, about the practice of 159 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:17.759 it, and it's wonderful. But why do we have such a problem with 160 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.559 it? Why, you know, we're like, I'm not going to die, 161 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.559 I'm gonna live forever. I want to be young. I want to 162 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.279 have my face lifted. I want to I want to you know, dye 163 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:32.000 my hair. I don't want to be an older person. Yeah. Yeah, 164 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:37.759 we're a society that does not respect our elders in the slightest and so 165 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:44.759 I'm sure over time in different cultures people have been obsessed with beauty and youth, 166 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:51.240 but we've taken it to an absolute extreme here where we isolated anybody that 167 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:56.600 is not producing, that is not you know, boosting the economy, that 168 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:02.720 is not putting on a happy face and putting our best book forward. And 169 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:11.279 you know what we tend to prize is people who look so quote unquote looks 170 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:18.039 so young even though they're a particular age, and it's just it's unbelievable. 171 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:26.400 So it's made for a very unhealthy, unhappy, grief stifled society. Yeah, 172 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:32.519 it's it's harming us and in many ways. And I think we've seen 173 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.400 this continue to unfold over the generations and I don't know where it's going. 174 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.640 Saying as there are filters that you can use in your phone that make you 175 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:48.400 look like absolutely glamorous, like that's crazy gorgeous. I know. I mean 176 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:56.279 I've been looking at those apps and they're like it takes like years off your 177 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:00.359 face, so like you're a very young person. If people are putting those 178 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:04.799 up on their Facebook pages. Yeah. Yeah, So you're saying we're having 179 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.799 problems as a society because we're go, go, go, go, and 180 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:15.799 and uh we don't sit and quiet our minds and look at I mean work 181 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.240 with nature and so forth and so on. So it's an unnatural way of 182 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:25.160 living, is what you're suggesting. Is there any is there any hope for 183 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:26.920 this? And because in a minute here I'm going to ask you another question 184 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:32.400 what you bring up in your book is how did our ancestors process the problem 185 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:38.519 this this end of life point of you know, reference, How did they 186 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.400 go about doing they seem to be so connected with the earth, you know, 187 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.519 and seeing animals die and seeing elders die. How did how do you 188 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.839 think that there was what was the difference? What is the difference do you 189 00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:00.880 see with with just to clarify with how we read death and dying in society 190 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:06.839 now versus how our ancestors may have treated it. Yeah, well, I 191 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:14.839 think that an interesting aspect is that we now have access to so much because 192 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:23.039 of the Internet, because of social media, that we're able to see. 193 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:29.119 So, Okay, you gotta sorry, You're gonna have to edit that cut 194 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.720 out. I totally just lost track of what I was saying. Sorry about 195 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:38.319 it. I'm asking you some important questions because we talk a lot about the 196 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:44.119 ancients and a lot of the native cultures are very connected to the earth, 197 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:52.599 and they they through cycles, seasonal cycles, winters, fall, spring, 198 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.480 summer. It's kind of like the body, you know, in many ways, 199 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.960 you're going through these processes and at some point you're bodies like Okay, 200 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:07.480 I'm ready to pass. I'm ready to transition. Why what was the difference, 201 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.079 What is the difference between our ancestors understanding of death and how we treated 202 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:22.000 today. I think a lot of what happened was that we were seeing death 203 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:29.119 regularly. So when people died in the home or when they died in the 204 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:33.599 community, it was really an event that people would come together to dig the 205 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:42.400 hole to bury the body to and and deaths were expected. Death happened at 206 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:49.559 all ages, all the time, and so there was nothing foreign about it. 207 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:55.200 So it's not even necessarily that people, you know, were living so 208 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.440 close to the earth. I mean, and certainly in some cultures that's true. 209 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.160 It's just that there was no hiding death because there were no other options. 210 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.640 That's a great point. Yeah, So we ended up and this is 211 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.200 fairly recently. You know, in the around the nineteen twenties was the great 212 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:19.000 hospital boom in the United States, and not long after became became antibiotics, 213 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.079 and antibiotics were a miracle. They still are in a lot of ways, 214 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.920 and so there were miracles happening all the time. When when people could send 215 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:33.680 their loved ones to the hospital and they would come back, they would come 216 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.599 back home again, and that was so powerful. Doctors became so powerful, 217 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.519 medicine became so powerful that people just entrusted all of their sick, including their 218 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:49.599 dying, including their elderly, to medical care. Yeah, and then easy 219 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.799 enough to have the funeral home come scoop them up after that. And so 220 00:21:53.960 --> 00:22:00.079 death has really been removed from the household and a lot of ways removed just 221 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:06.160 completely so that people are not even attending the dead, are not even attending 222 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:11.240 their own funerals now very commonly. And so you might say goodbye to Grandma 223 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.680 when she's up and walking around, and then she dies and she gets buried 224 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:21.000 and you never saw her body again. Yeah, And that's one of the 225 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:26.839 gentle deaths. Those are the beautiful, gentle, expected deaths that really people 226 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:32.880 can find some degree of comfort in. But when they're completely hidden, and 227 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:40.599 when headline news is about wars, refugees, mass shootings, and then we 228 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:47.640 have video games and movies about different kinds of tragic deaths, those are the 229 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:52.559 things we're exposed to and not gentle deaths. And I think that's probably the 230 00:22:52.920 --> 00:23:00.559 biggest difference about what has changed drastically over generations. I myself know, I 231 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.920 mean I I was with my grandfather as he was passing. He decided he 232 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:10.480 wanted to be at home and the family cared for him up until I know 233 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:15.160 he died at home. It's many years ago, and so it was shocking. 234 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.759 It was shocking, and it was everybody was numb. I remember feeling 235 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:25.119 very numb about it. Talk about I mean I was, Uh. My 236 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:30.680 son had a birth doula and it was she was great for my wife at 237 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:36.079 the time. Talk about a death doula, What does that mean? What 238 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:42.039 is an encompass Mmm, So, a death doula is very very much like 239 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.119 a birth doula, where they're you're assisting ushering the life out of the being, 240 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.720 just like the birth dola would usher the life and you know, in 241 00:23:53.799 --> 00:24:02.920 transition to to be here on earth. So it's an easy way to describe 242 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.880 it, which says everything and absolutely nothing is it's a non medical, holistic 243 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:14.599 caregiver. And the word non medical is in there because we're not doctors unless 244 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.759 you happen to be a doctor. But we're not doctors. We're not necessarily 245 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:23.039 trained medical staff, we're not lawyers, we're not you know, all of 246 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:29.839 these different professions, and yet we happen to have a lot of the the 247 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.559 skills, some of those basic skills, or we can point people in the 248 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:42.440 right direction. So what happens during the dying time is people get you know, 249 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:51.960 understandably very emotional. It's really hard to think of everything that quote unquote 250 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.599 needs to be done. And so a death doula should be somebody who comes 251 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.960 in who is this constant presence that offer for a little bit of clarity, 252 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:06.240 a little bit of calmness, a little bit of encouragement saying you're doing it 253 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.880 right and this is okay. And that encouragement could go to not just the 254 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:17.119 one who's dying, but also the family member's friends, community. But something 255 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:21.599 really important to know is that, or just to understand, is that death 256 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:26.279 dulas have always been around. So the work of a death duela is nothing 257 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.480 new. It's just that the name death doula and this context is something that's 258 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.640 pretty catchy right now and people think, oh, I want to do death 259 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:44.720 duela training, But it doesn't mean that the training they did was any better 260 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:52.319 than somebody who was just in the situation and had no choice. You know, 261 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:57.799 there are plenty of caregivers who dulah the dying who've never done a certificate 262 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:03.720 course, but they are They go through it with their spouse or their aunt, 263 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:07.839 their uncle, their child, whoever happens to be. So this work 264 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:15.000 has always been done throughout time, and it's important to remember that that it's 265 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:23.000 not any kind of exclusive club. I feel like sometimes when people think that 266 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.359 it's a specialty training that you can do, that it means that they might 267 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:33.880 not have these innate skills themselves, and they do. You people rise to 268 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.720 the occasion, they adapt, and they do what they have to in different 269 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:44.160 circumstances. Yeah. I like that The book is death nesting and this is 270 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.680 the theme of the book, which is fantastic. Describe what that is, 271 00:26:48.759 --> 00:27:00.680 I mean, besides making the space where this person who's dying comfortable and holistic, 272 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:07.839 discuss some of the other attributes of a nesting situation and why it's it's 273 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.440 critical because and we're going to talk here about the actual which is wonderful about 274 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.119 the book. You get into the actual process of what the dying person is 275 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:19.599 dealing with on a physical level. But what is the why is the nesting 276 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:30.160 aspect so important? Well, the sooner you think about your own death and 277 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.880 dying process, the sooner you'll be able to really appreciate what's going on for 278 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:40.440 you right now in your life just as it is, so you know, 279 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:45.599 if you can imagine your future dying process and what it might feel like to 280 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:51.640 you and really lean into that. I have some meditations in the book, 281 00:27:51.680 --> 00:28:00.400 but to really feel and think and experience as best you can with your genation 282 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.480 what it might be like to be dying and what happens is you know, 283 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.359 some fears might come up, but if you push those aside, leave the 284 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:15.079 fears aside, and just think of what kind of thoughts might pop up in 285 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:19.160 the dying process, then you might realize, Wow, I feel a lot 286 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:25.920 of guilt about X, Y and Z or I really actually I have never 287 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.039 gone on this trip. I've been saying I'm going to do it for thirty 288 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.160 years. I want to actually do this trip so by and this is part 289 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.720 of the death nesting process. So that's an emotional kind of self self death 290 00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:47.960 nesting that one can do. So that can help you live a better life, 291 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.559 which is really the importance of doing any kind of contemplations about death and 292 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:59.920 buying. It's so amazing what you just said in this meditation where you're revealing 293 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.160 or experiencing your death. Even though you might be a young person, all 294 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:11.160 this other thinking is coming up, like why wait, I need to go 295 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.160 to this vag I need to go to this place on a vacation, I 296 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:21.079 need to do these things that I've been thinking of. So it's actually a 297 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:26.480 process, which is fascinating. I mean, that's so amazing because it's like 298 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:34.160 the death process. You're done physically, and you're saying through this meditation it's 299 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:38.519 like, get up, get off your ass, go do what you've been 300 00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:44.720 yearning to do before you leave the planet. Yeah. Yeah, And you 301 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.200 know what, it doesn't even necessarily require a bunch of money and time. 302 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:55.759 It could be that you just really have felt guilt and this happens for fifty 303 00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.680 years because you have always wanted to apologize to so and so. That can 304 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:07.880 be an enormous weight lifted off from your chest that you can eliminate that so 305 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:12.359 it's not showing back up again on your deskbed. So there are you know, 306 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.960 beautiful fun things you can do, like I've always wanted to dye my 307 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.599 hair purple, Well, great, go for it. But there's some of 308 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.920 the emotional things that don't have to be so extreme. And you know what, 309 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:29.400 maybe nobody will ever know, and it's just something that you took a 310 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.640 look at that you decided you wanted to resolve so that you didn't have that 311 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:38.960 sitting with you or literally like a weight on you when you were dying. 312 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.440 Would you say that this meditation has come up in your practice as a doula 313 00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:51.160 seeing people say I wish I would have done this, I wish I would 314 00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:56.839 have cleared my relationship with this person. I mean, that's a big one. 315 00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.920 I read that in your book, and I've heard from other people that 316 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:06.240 they didn't resolve issues with family with friends, with loved ones. That's right, 317 00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:14.000 yeah, right, And you know that that also is I don't know 318 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:21.039 because they didn't live in you know, generations ago. But that also is 319 00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:25.000 a kind of a sign of the times where you know, showing a weakness 320 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:29.359 is not anything that you would do. Showing any kind of vulnerability is not 321 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.839 you know, it's not prized in our society, and so people, yeah, 322 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:40.759 they try to save face their whole life, and regrets and guilt are 323 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:47.519 very common in the dying process. Yeah, let's talk about where people die. 324 00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:51.640 You write in your book thirty one percent of people die at home, 325 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.480 and it appears to be growing. In the beginning, when you introduced who 326 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:02.039 how you got into the doula practice, you were saying that a lot of 327 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:07.279 people are dying in hospitals. If you have a choice, should you pass 328 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.400 it home? I would I would think yes, that's a simple answer. 329 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.359 But if you don't have the care to pass it home, that's the big 330 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:22.880 issue, right, That's right, that's exactly right. So people so with 331 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:29.039 an expected death, which is what we're considering now, to die in a 332 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:34.640 nursing home or residential care, or your own home or your family's home, 333 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:43.440 or even in a hospital setting, it really depends on so many different factors. 334 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.640 Does the person have health insurance, so are they going to cover the 335 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.200 hospital stays? Do they have enough money to stay in residential care? Does 336 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:59.000 a residential care facility allow hospice to come in? And sometimes people, I 337 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:04.720 think most of the population statistics say, would choose to die at home, 338 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:12.720 but it's not always possible for many different reasons, and sometimes they're not going 339 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.559 to get the best care if they're at home, because it does take a 340 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:21.000 village. It takes a lot to care for somebody who's actively dying, you 341 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:24.640 know, somebody who's actively dying can be like that for weeks, you know, 342 00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:29.440 twenty four hours a day, or it could be just a couple of 343 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:34.079 days, and so you have no idea. People have to clear their schedules 344 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:37.079 in order to give this care. They have to leave work, they have 345 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:43.839 to find their own childcare, whatever it happens to be. So sometimes facilities 346 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:49.000 are better equipped to deal with this, but even that is a real shortage 347 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.359 right now, and it's not guarantee that anybody will get some kind of amazing 348 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:58.759 care. Yeah, that's a good point. Talk briefly about an advanced directive 349 00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:00.720 and why this is important. You had this in your book and I was 350 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.680 like, wow, that really makes sense. I kind of have an advanced 351 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.639 understanding of what your process is, what you know, how you want to 352 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:16.679 be cared for while you're well mhm yeah. So the uh, the Vermont 353 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:21.119 Advanced Directive. You can look in your state and see if they have an 354 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:25.039 advanced directive. There are national advanced directives that you can take a look at. 355 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:29.599 The one from Vermont is a really good one, and they have a 356 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.679 long form and a short form. But it's so funny it says a good 357 00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:38.400 time to update your advanced directive is when you have a diagnosis, a death, 358 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:45.360 a decade, birthday, deterioration, divorce, these five d's and divorce. 359 00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:53.880 Why in the world would you tell people those are all like really really 360 00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:58.320 emotionally heavy things. That's not a good time to look at advanced directives. 361 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:05.360 No practical because you need to rename your next of kin than the person that 362 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:12.199 you want to be your agent. But it really could be something that is 363 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:16.599 a family event. Hey, guys, this year at Christmas, we're going 364 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:21.239 to work on our advanced directives. You can have a drink, you can 365 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.519 have, you know, some coffee, you can have. It can be 366 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:29.840 like, it can be something interesting that you know where you have to be 367 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:34.400 creative though, And Marie, you're saying Christmas, I'm going, oh my 368 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.079 god, I thought you were joking, But you're serious. I am very 369 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:42.400 serious. I think it to be fun and disturbing. You got to make 370 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:47.400 it fun. And you'll see some people will perk right up and they're usually 371 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.800 proud of the fact that they have done their advance directive. And then some 372 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.159 people will kind of like slink back to the corners. And but why not, 373 00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.719 why not talk about it? Because let's say it's a flop, right. 374 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:07.719 It was introduced during the holiday, nobody talked about it when they went 375 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.960 home later, it still was in the back of their head, you know. 376 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:17.119 And that's okay, because you know, it should be part of normal 377 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:22.960 conversation, you know. And it can be funny, like saying, hey, 378 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:28.440 Mom, you know I want the China cabinet, you know, when 379 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.880 you die, that kind of thing, you know, it's funny. My 380 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:35.960 grandfather actually did that. He was a doctor and he collected all kinds of 381 00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:42.719 stuff that people said they wanted. And he actually, long before he passed. 382 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.639 This is like maybe a decade before he passed, he says, this 383 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.320 will go to you, this will go to you. And I was like, 384 00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:53.039 what are you doing? You know? But it was actually smart because 385 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:58.760 he cut off all the fighting that would have happened. There was fights anyhow. 386 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.519 But it's easier for people to name things they want to give away than 387 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:07.199 to think about it whether or not they want a feeding tube. This is 388 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.599 true. Oh that's a whole different thing. But one conversation can lead to 389 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:16.559 another, and I just wish it was a little bit more commonplace. Let's 390 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:23.239 get into the actual physical dying. I really enjoyed the portion of your book 391 00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:30.519 where you describe the physical, the sensations, the senses that are coming and 392 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:36.519 going. Talk about hearing, What are they? What is someone who's is 393 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:43.280 passing? What is that all about? I think it's so beautiful that hearing 394 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:49.159 is one of the last senses to go. So if you can imagine that, 395 00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:53.719 you know, imagine you're just laying in bed and it's it's dark, 396 00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:02.639 or you have your eyes closed and you're not moving, sound becomes everything, 397 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.639 right, So you know, at nighttime it might be scary if you hear 398 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:12.639 a sump, but in the daytime, with your eyes open, you might 399 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:15.920 hear that same thump and think, oh, it's nothing. But that's the 400 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:23.559 power that is attached to hearing, and so that sense really opens up when 401 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:30.119 everything else begins to close down. So the person's no longer eating and enjoying, 402 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.480 tasting and smelling food, they're no longer looking at their surroundings. So 403 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:47.559 hearing becomes just this beautiful opportunity to access the person who's dying. And that 404 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:54.760 is one reason why it's important to consider the surroundings, the sounds that are 405 00:38:54.800 --> 00:39:00.039 going on within the room. Although you know in a lot of ways, 406 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:05.199 by the time the person gets to that state, I believe you know, 407 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:08.360 they're hearing it, but it's not really impacting them all that much either. 408 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.480 So it's kind of an in between state. Like again, like if you 409 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:16.440 can imagine being kind of asleep and you might know some things are going on, 410 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.800 you know, some bustling around, but it doesn't really have your attention. 411 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:30.119 Yeah, we're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors 412 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.840 to identify themselves, and we will return with my guest today, Anne Marie 413 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.920 Keppel, discussing her newest book, Death Nesting. We'll be right back. 414 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.880 My guest today is a death doula. Her name is Anne Marie Cappell, 415 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:28.519 who's written a book called death Nesting, using traditional methods of helping someone pass 416 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:37.639 over to the other side. Would you say that people in that process of 417 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:45.639 passing are in an altered state of consciousness? Oh yeah, oh yeah, 418 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:50.960 you know. It seems kind of like to me, if you have ever 419 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:58.000 witnessed a woman in labor, and let's say it's been a longer late labor, 420 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.639 and she's deep in the labor process, kind of all hell could be 421 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.440 breaking loose around the person and they are in their own space, and I 422 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:12.400 refer to that as a secret nesting, which I talk about in the book, 423 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.239 and I have witnessed it being the exact same thing, the same kind 424 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:23.800 of internal labor that's going on with somebody who's dying. I've and this is 425 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.000 I don't know if you can address this or not, but I've had people 426 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:31.880 on the program and spoken to people who are, like you, a doulah 427 00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:42.840 that are working with a dying person and they are seeing things. They're seeing 428 00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:49.199 relatives show up, They're seeing all kinds of stuff, their guides, their 429 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:55.599 hired their wisdom teachers. What do you say to that it's there, it's 430 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.840 there, and it's real, and there's no way it can't be real. 431 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:05.199 You know it's But I mean, as a doulas someone's talking to you, 432 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.519 do you see Jane over there? Well, how do you react to that? 433 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:13.119 As someone who's supporting the passing, Yeah, you say, oh, 434 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.119 is Jane over there? You wouldn't ever tell them that Jane is not there. 435 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:22.960 However, as a dula, first of all, I don't put my 436 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:29.239 values and beliefs on the family that I'm working with. But and all of 437 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:34.320 that, anybody who works in death care, ask a, hospice nurse, 438 00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:38.800 hospice workers, people RNs, people who are working in the er, people 439 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:49.519 who are e mts and emergency vehicles, death duelas people talk about others coming 440 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:55.599 to them, you know, so it deceased loved ones. They might give 441 00:42:55.639 --> 00:43:00.199 them different names. They might say angels, they might say there's a man 442 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.119 over there. They might not, you know, they might not identify necessarily 443 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:07.760 with someone's name. But there are, over and over and over again, 444 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:15.000 just beings come to help help for the transition. Right, yes, right. 445 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:20.760 You brought up a really good point in the fact that a doula is 446 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:28.920 a facilitator and you do not impose your values and beliefs on the person who 447 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:34.719 is passing. I mean that's really critical, isn't it. Yes, Yes, 448 00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:38.440 absolutely, And I have worked with so I might believe and see and 449 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:45.320 notice that, you know, somebody has arrived, so there's been an energetic 450 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:49.840 shift, but I wouldn't talk about that. And I've worked with lots of 451 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:54.800 people who don't believe in anything other than their body dying, and that's perfectly 452 00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:00.559 fine and perfectly beautiful most of the time, or at least the people that 453 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:05.599 I have worked with, they are very closely connected with nature a lot of 454 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:09.800 times, and so it's easy. If I'm working with them and they're having 455 00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:14.320 trouble getting out of their body, I can work with them and say, 456 00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:17.199 hopefully I would have talked to them in advance to get to know them and 457 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:23.039 what brings them comfort. But I can have them swim, just swim. 458 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:28.280 You can just swim out into the distance and just keep on going. If 459 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:31.519 they really love swimming, or if they really love being in the forest, 460 00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:37.000 walk in the forest. How far can you go? How far can you 461 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.840 walk out? That's the last part, as they're really ill. Is that 462 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:45.039 what you're helping them do is keep swim, keep swimming, or walk on 463 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:51.360 this hike, take your hike, smell the foliage and so forth. Is 464 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.639 that what you're suggesting or is that just like a regular thing you would do 465 00:44:53.840 --> 00:45:00.559 over a period of time. No, I actually haven't heard that's what I 466 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:07.400 do. I haven't heard of any other doula or you know, quote unquote 467 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:14.679 psychopomp that's somebody who helps somebody get out of their body. Use those techniques 468 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:19.639 that I use those techniques because they seem fitting with the people that I'm working 469 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.400 with, and it's just you know, it's just an adaptation to something. 470 00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:29.599 Somebody might say, go to God, go to Mary's, go to Mary's 471 00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:35.079 loving arms. And so when there's a religion, you can tell them to 472 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:39.320 go to go to a lat wherever it is that the person needs is believing 473 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:45.440 where they're going to go. But when the person has no beliefs, sometimes 474 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:51.320 people they get to their deathbed and they actually don't have any set beliefs of 475 00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:55.440 where they're going. Oh interest, So then we just work with Okay, 476 00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:01.840 what brings you comfort, and we try to get try to really distill it 477 00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:07.480 down to just the feeling of comfort, because their comfort might be attached to 478 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:13.880 an earthly thing. Yes, and they're going some plaze or they're leaving their 479 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:17.920 body where they're not going to have that earthly thing that brings some comfort. 480 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.800 So then they find the comfort within their body, and then I can tell 481 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:29.079 them to open that comfort, make it bigger, or if they're having trouble 482 00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.320 leaving their body, to use these other methods. I want to mention real 483 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:38.039 quickly. You have a short paragraph or two about working with psychedelics, and 484 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:44.280 there are some native people who will use psychedelics towards like mushrooms or I don't 485 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:52.280 know, maybe various forms of cannabis to kind of have a vision quest or 486 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:57.360 have a sense of what's happening. What do you suggest on that? I 487 00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.000 mean, you didn't really suggest, you were just kind of throwing it open 488 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:07.800 when as a possibility for those people who perhaps ingest psychedelics, Yeah, yeah, 489 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:12.760 I mean there I would never suggest somebody necessarily do psychedelics if they didn't 490 00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:16.360 ever do it. Yeah, but if it calls to them, I say, 491 00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:20.480 well, why not check it out. But it's nothing that I necessarily, 492 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:27.159 you know, say, hey, have we tried to But and yes, 493 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:34.119 I mean that is what shamans and medicine people have been doing around the 494 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:39.239 world for eons, and so you know, and in some places it was 495 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:44.599 not the individual that went on this journey. It was the shaman that went 496 00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:49.320 on the journey on their behalf. So it's it's not always that the individual 497 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:54.480 that has to do this. But in a lot of psychedelic experiences, people 498 00:47:54.840 --> 00:48:02.320 experience their own death a form of death. Yes, and it's not always 499 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:07.639 in the in the journey, it's not always pleasant. A lot of times 500 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:12.760 I think it is. But no matter what, there's something that can be 501 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.440 gleaned from it if you have the right setting, the right you know, 502 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.400 the right space that's being held for you. It's it's such a shame that 503 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:29.360 sometimes people do psychedelics in a party atmosphere and then they have this very you 504 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.440 know, it doesn't actually matter, like whatever kind of experience it is that 505 00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:37.719 they have, that it's kind of cast aside. Or maybe it was really 506 00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:42.039 scary and they didn't have any support, nobody had to talk with them about 507 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.079 it, and then they're just left with a kind of an additional minor trauma. 508 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:52.440 Perhaps, Yeah, setting is really everything. I love that you brought 509 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:58.000 up something I thought was very interesting. The shaman would take the place of 510 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:07.280 the dying person and experience the psychotropic experience or take those products, come back 511 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:15.039 and perhaps report to the person who's passing what they can expect. Yeah, 512 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:21.480 well, psychedelics, even if the person is not currently dying, A medicine 513 00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:24.320 person can journey on their behalf and come back with a message, So that 514 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:30.920 can be very common. But also putting somebody who wanted to assist the dying, 515 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:36.199 if they were in a light altered state of consciousness, they might be 516 00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:40.440 able to much more easily meet the other individual on the same plane or on 517 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.679 a similar plane where they can actually help guide them out of their body. 518 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:50.039 Yeah, I love that. That was great. Talk about the process the 519 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:52.320 person who is passing, what they're going through when it comes to eating, 520 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:58.519 digesting, and elimination, which is very critical because we all eat, we 521 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:01.079 all drink, and when you're asking, it's a different situation, isn't it. 522 00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:07.159 Yeah, Yeah, there is a there. There can be a lot 523 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:15.519 of a lot of hardships, a lot of family dynamics that arise around eating. 524 00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:22.000 So it's very common that families come together and they eat, or you 525 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:24.960 know, communities come together and they eat and they eat it, you know, 526 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.199 just at the dinner table or at a wedding or at a funeral, 527 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:36.679 and it's it signifies health when when people eat, it's it means that they're 528 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:43.480 still living. Basically, So as people are going through the process of their 529 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:47.039 you know, as their diagnosis progresses, or as they get closer to dying, 530 00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:55.239 they may stop eating as much, they may stop eating altogether. They 531 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:00.800 may not even want to drink anymore, and that's an eat harder ones. 532 00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:07.599 So a family member seeing that Mom isn't eating anymore and she's not even drinking. 533 00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:14.480 Can feel like the mother may have chosen this, by the way, 534 00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.840 but it can almost feel to other family members like a form of abuse, 535 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:23.400 that the mother is being neglected. She should at least have hydration, she 536 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:30.360 should at least have an IV when really it's called voluntary stopping of eating and 537 00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:37.800 drinking, and it can really help through the dying process. And then you 538 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:43.039 just interrupt you It helps because it begins shutting the system down. Is that 539 00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:49.079 correct? When you stop eating and you stop drinking, elimination is halted, 540 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:54.199 right, Yeah, Still there's still some output. There's It will take a 541 00:51:54.280 --> 00:52:00.119 while because your body is filled with water and liquid and so there still will 542 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:09.159 be some urinary output. Eventually it may completely stop, depending on how long 543 00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:12.480 of a period of time this is going for how long of a period of 544 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:21.280 time a person lives for. But it is one form of hastening death. 545 00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:29.079 And sometimes when people hear that hasten death, it can sound kind of grating, 546 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.840 It can sound like an alert. But if somebody is actively dying, 547 00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:37.920 this is a perfectly okay thing, which means instead of continuing to give the 548 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:45.400 body nourishment and energy, that it allows the body to kind of EBB and 549 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:53.000 just allow the output of energy to stop or to greatly reduce, and people 550 00:52:53.000 --> 00:53:00.960 can end up in a kind of euphoric state where it if you watch somebody 551 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.960 go through it, there may be some hard days in there, but they 552 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:07.880 look pretty good, like it looks like they are doing the right thing for 553 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:15.840 themselves. Would you call that kind of a death fast where they're basically cutting 554 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:22.679 all nutrients, including liquids out, and they're doing it not even perhaps knowing 555 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:23.639 that they're doing it. They're just like, I don't want to eat or 556 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:28.960 drink anymore. My grandfather passed that way. Took them a couple of weeks, 557 00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.280 but you know, I can't remember how long time. I think it 558 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:37.400 was at least a couple of weeks. But it's almost a natural inclination for 559 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:40.960 someone to do that, isn't it. Yeah, it can feel very natural. 560 00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:47.000 You know, everybody's body is different, everybody's idea of how the process 561 00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:51.719 should go is very different. But you see that very commonly with animals. 562 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:59.599 It is natural. Talk a little bit about caring for somebody who is in 563 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:05.480 the life stages of life, their skin, moisturizers, things like that, 564 00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.519 And because I really thought that was a good touch that you had in the 565 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:13.440 book. I didn't even consider that. So talk a little bit about that. 566 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:23.480 M So as people, you know, as the life experience tends to 567 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:28.400 get very small, of course, we don't know what kind of inner work 568 00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.599 is going on. It could be very expensive world. You know, there's 569 00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:38.079 just this there's this inner nest where they are their immediate surroundings, and they're 570 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:44.360 pretty stationary. They might be rolled from one side to another to prevent bed 571 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:50.639 sores, all right, yeah, yeah, but it's they're not getting up 572 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.639 and doing things. And when you're doing that, you know, the body 573 00:54:53.719 --> 00:55:00.199 can get stiff or you know, cold and hot in different places. All 574 00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:06.639 that's very natural. But it's one way that if the dying person allows it 575 00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:10.280 and feels comfortable with it, it's one way that the family or loved ones 576 00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:15.960 can continue to have an intimate relationship with the person even though they might not 577 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:21.519 even be talking anymore. So they could say, would it feel good if 578 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:27.119 I rubbed your feet and just rubbing some massage oil in there, or perhaps 579 00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:34.920 some massaging their scalp, massaging their hands. As far as moisturizing, yeah, 580 00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:40.519 there can be you may want to keep moisturizing the person's lips and mouths, 581 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.119 because that can tend to get really dry, especially if they're breathing through 582 00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:52.599 their mouth over and over again. And sometimes I'm not so sure that it 583 00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:58.679 actually bothers them all that much, but when the caregivers are looking at the 584 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.639 person, it looks like it's bothering them. You know, Oh, interesting 585 00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:10.960 chaps don't look very comfortable. Fascinating. I'd like to learn a little more 586 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.440 about what you call spiritual support. And before we started we booked, I 587 00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:21.039 mentioned to you that I was a reiki teacher, and in your book you 588 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:25.559 talk about reiki. Why is I mean, I understand what reiki's all about, 589 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:30.159 but talk a little bit about working with reiki healing vibrational healing with somebody 590 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:37.639 who's passing. Hmm. I think it's a beautiful way, again to have 591 00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:44.119 this intimate exchange with the person who's dying. If prior to the person's active 592 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:50.519 dying process, you have been granted some permission, because you know, permission 593 00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:58.920 is everything energetically, but it can be a really beautiful way to engage in 594 00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:05.480 healing them energetic body, so allowing an exchange of energy for any kind of 595 00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:13.480 hang up in any particular chakra area that really can can begin to release so 596 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:20.400 that the person can can leave their body that much easier. I think, 597 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:25.960 and you suggest this that if you can, as a doula or a caregiver, 598 00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:31.159 can work with someone before they get into really the last stages of passing 599 00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:37.239 and understand what their spiritual practices are, that can really be helpful. Can 600 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:43.760 it? Because maybe if someone meditated regularly. I don't know if you can 601 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.119 meditate in your if you're passing. What do you say to that. I'm 602 00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:52.920 a long a lifelong meditator, and so I don't know if I would be 603 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:55.480 able to. I don't know what stage it is. What do you suggest 604 00:57:55.559 --> 00:58:00.599 on that somebody who's been meditating for years? Yeah, I am a lifelong 605 00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:07.239 meditator too, so it is. I believe it's very helpful. The people 606 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:14.679 that I have worked with who have had a really strong meditation practice, I 607 00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:21.440 have found that they are much more willing to It's strange to say this, 608 00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:28.199 but I'm going to use quotation marks quote unquote except they're dying, because it's 609 00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:34.400 therese all kinds of variations on acceptance and what that means and et cetera. 610 00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:40.960 But that what I have seen is that it's a much more peaceful process that 611 00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:46.800 they have already been and they made friends with their mind. They've already made 612 00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:52.519 friends with their thoughts. So even if they're having the exact same thoughts as 613 00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:57.639 somebody else who has never meditated in their entire life, it's at least not 614 00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:00.119 a stranger to them. So they say, ah, you know, they 615 00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:05.079 can recognize, Wow, I have this thought on repeat. I'm going to 616 00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:10.679 either let it go or I'm going to visualize something that's really peaceful and keep 617 00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:19.760 my mind right there. So I have found that it has from my experience, 618 00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:25.280 it does make an easier process. Fascinating you talk in your book you 619 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:37.559 say that most different different cultures practice the same typical technique techniques. Talk just 620 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:38.800 a little bit about that, because when you were saying that, I was 621 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:51.920 thinking, Okay, Asian cultures, European cultures, Hispanic cultures. I know 622 00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:53.840 about the Spanish cultures. I don't know about the Asian cultures so much. 623 00:59:53.880 --> 01:00:00.079 But so you're saying in your work that if you you are working with someone 624 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:07.159 from a different culture, the techniques and helping them past are about the same. 625 01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:13.360 Is that what you're suggesting, So it can be. So what I 626 01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:22.159 tried to focus on with death Nesting is really kind of what happens with the 627 01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:27.880 body that is universal, right, heart is going to become erratic no matter 628 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:34.800 who you are, on what corner of planet Earth, the breathing is going 629 01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:38.159 to you know, this is how the breathing comes into play. And so 630 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:42.480 I did try to for that segment of the book, going through the dying 631 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:46.280 process, I really tried to just stick with what happens with the human body 632 01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:52.519 during the dying process. Now, culturally there'll be all kinds of different ways 633 01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:59.639 that people decide to care for the person who's dying and how they care for 634 01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:06.239 theiry. And I always tell people I am not an expert in every culture 635 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:10.480 through the different dying and death practices, but I don't have to be in 636 01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:16.360 order to care for somebody who is dying from a different culture or religion that 637 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:22.719 I'm familiar with. So as a death Duela, I can be there to 638 01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:30.039 share emotional support and give resources and not necessarily take place in any of the 639 01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:35.840 ceremonial aspects of care. That's not for me to do. And the whole 640 01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:40.039 idea of for me being a death la and everybody you know, a lot 641 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:44.280 of people have a different opinion here is the death relationould really be in the 642 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:50.320 background, supporting the family and friends and community to do the work for their 643 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:58.239 dying loved one. Yeah. So again you're a facilitator and you're not imposing 644 01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:01.840 your things. So someone came in and said we would like to do this 645 01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:05.960 ceremony, this and this and this, that's not going to be It shouldn't 646 01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:09.679 be a problem, you know, not at all. I should just do 647 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:15.880 some research to figure out how to not be invasive or disrespectful. So, 648 01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:21.079 you know, if it means covering my shoulders, That's what I'm going to 649 01:02:21.159 --> 01:02:24.679 do, you know. So just make some very basic courtesies for how to 650 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:31.239 show up for them. But you know, sitting sitting with someone while they 651 01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:36.960 cry, that's pretty universal, you know. So there's some ways that a 652 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:43.159 death doula can be a presence that is really comforting, even though they might 653 01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:47.199 not have any of the hands on care for the one dying. Fascinating the 654 01:02:47.239 --> 01:02:53.440 books called Death Nesting the Heart Centered Practices of a Death Duela. My guest 655 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:59.840 today has been Anne Marie capel Uh. You have a section in towards the 656 01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:01.920 end of the book which I didn't even consider, which is very important. 657 01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:07.960 How do we talk to children about someone who's dying, and this is critical 658 01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:15.920 especially when children are part of the direct family. M Yeah, ideally they 659 01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:19.960 you know, in terms of the death duela, the death deela would have 660 01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:28.440 nothing to do with that other than support the the adult to comfort and talk 661 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:31.800 to and care for the child. So it really would depend on what the 662 01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:37.719 situation is. If the child witnessed something, you know, was it a 663 01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:42.440 sudden death or was it an expected death. So it's really across the board. 664 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.599 And also the age of the child. Are they very little, are 665 01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:51.440 they able to appreciate a puppet show where the puppets can work out how they're 666 01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:57.320 feeling and talk about what happened, or are they a little bit older where 667 01:03:57.800 --> 01:04:05.719 they might you know, benefit from a story or a video or whatever it 668 01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:14.760 happens to be, or just part of the family conversation that they're not necessarily 669 01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:18.360 excluded from it. There's a lot of times when people won't talk about anything 670 01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:21.559 that's going on while the children are in the room, and they'll put them 671 01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:26.480 in front of the TV or whatever it happens to be. I'm not saying 672 01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:33.280 that's wrong by any means. I'm just saying that it's healthy for children to 673 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:41.360 understand that adults get sad, adults don't know all of the answers. Adults 674 01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:45.440 can come together when they don't know what's going on, when they feel sad 675 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:50.360 or scared, and to listen to the conversation and see people's reactions. So 676 01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:59.559 the children will oftentimes do as well as the adults do with the situation because 677 01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:06.000 they're wh watching and learning. But it really depends on their age. Okay, 678 01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:12.840 how would you say we're doing as a culture. You've been in this 679 01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:16.920 for a period of time. Would you say that we're getting better at watching 680 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:24.679 our loved ones past or is it still a problem. I think it's always 681 01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:31.239 going to rip our hearts out. I think it's always going to be sad. 682 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:35.280 You know. At the same time, there are some people who have 683 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:41.239 a really active spiritual life that really feel like they just slipped into the other 684 01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:45.000 room, that really feel like they're just I love that they just slipped into 685 01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:49.519 the other room. Okay, I'm believing. Yeah, the lifetime. Do 686 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:56.360 you believe in past do you believe in reincarnation? That's a good question. 687 01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:02.239 I it always change, so I definitely grew up believing in reincarnation. So 688 01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:08.880 my parents are they had, you know, sixteen years of Catholic schools. 689 01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:12.239 They were very Catholic, but then when they raised me, they had all 690 01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:16.280 their Catholic background but became very new age. Well, you're in Vermont. 691 01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.599 Vermont's very hip. I have a lot of friends in Vermont. You know, 692 01:06:19.639 --> 01:06:26.199 you guys have a cannabis that's legal and medicinal recreational as well. I 693 01:06:26.199 --> 01:06:30.559 mean, you're just hip, so pretty cool. We're pretty cool. You 694 01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:35.960 can come visit, you can come up here. So I do believe in 695 01:06:36.039 --> 01:06:41.480 reincarnation, but to what degree. I'm always playing with, I'm always working 696 01:06:41.519 --> 01:06:47.239 with. So it's impossible to not think that there's some kind of a spirit 697 01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:51.840 world because you see it time and time again when you're working with people who 698 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:58.440 are dying. So that's solid. I see your case, touch Feeld, 699 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:02.159 I got that. In what form you come back again? And if you 700 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:08.199 have any recollection or any bleed through from other time? Quite possibly. I 701 01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:11.880 do believe that all time is going on, or some form of time is 702 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:16.239 going on at once or overlapping, and so I guess I don't know if 703 01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:20.960 the same spirit incarnates into a different body, or if there are all of 704 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:26.199 these experiences going on at the same time. Yeah, here's another one for 705 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:33.880 you. Do you believe that the reality that the departeds are going to is 706 01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:41.840 preparing for them, that there's a whole system in place to receive the soul 707 01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:47.679 of this departed individual. I think that's so beautiful. I hope. So 708 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:53.159 we should just spit it out and Marie tell us how many. I mean, 709 01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:57.920 you've seen it, You've witnessed these people passing. You're a sensitive person. 710 01:07:57.960 --> 01:07:59.880 I would think that you're like, yes, I can see that, 711 01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:05.639 and I mean it like on a dimensional spiritual path. We're physical here now, 712 01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:12.000 but there's other dimensions that are there that we're working with that we just 713 01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:17.399 don't talk about because in this time of the world, this epoch, we 714 01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:24.640 don't associate those other realms unless you're working with them, unless you understand them 715 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:30.239 on some level. Yeah. Well, I can say that I have had 716 01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:36.800 clients that show up to me in spirit form and I will be walking through 717 01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:41.039 I am not a medium, but I will say that I have medium like 718 01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:46.279 activity, really often walking through a shopping mall and all of a sudden, 719 01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:51.399 I look at somebody and I it's kind of funny. I'll get this really 720 01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:56.279 strange desire. You know something, You'll say, go ask them out for 721 01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:59.039 dinner, just to dinner. Just go ask them out for dinner. I'm 722 01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:02.119 like, am right, you cannot ask that stranger out for dinner. That's 723 01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:08.399 so weird. So I know that. And because I have had clients show 724 01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:11.399 up to me and I understand what it is that they're saying to me. 725 01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:15.239 I know now I didn't know at at one point that that absolutely is the 726 01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:19.199 spirit saying, hey, hey, look, you know that's my husband. 727 01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:26.479 Go go out the past life and somebody, somebody who was already dead, 728 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:29.840 and they're just prompting me like, hey, go get my husband, go 729 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:31.520 ask them out for dinner. I'm like, no, that's no, I 730 01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:34.560 can't do that. Well, I hear what you're saying, so that you're 731 01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:42.399 hearing voices from departed individuals, go and say hi, go better to dinner. 732 01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:45.600 Oh my god, that is so funny. Memory. This has been 733 01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:51.760 a pleasure. It's been fun. I think we need more books like this. 734 01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:56.159 We need to hear about this. How can people get a hold of 735 01:09:56.199 --> 01:10:00.600 you? What's your website? I have two websites, so my author website 736 01:10:00.680 --> 01:10:05.359 is Anne Marie Keppel dot com and that's that's the hyphen, so just Anne 737 01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:09.960 Marie Kepple dot com. And I have another one with my I'm a death 738 01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:15.119 Dula educator as well, and that one is Star dust Meadow dot com. 739 01:10:15.319 --> 01:10:19.520 Okay, and someone who's listening who is interested in becoming a duela, how 740 01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:25.960 do they go about doing that? There are programs all over the place. 741 01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:30.600 Some of them are online, some of them are in person. Research carefully 742 01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:38.560 the teacher because there's no standard death Dula training out there, so every training 743 01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:42.439 is very individual to each teacher. So research the teacher, make sure you 744 01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:46.600 have a connection with them, and you're welcome to come check out my course. 745 01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:53.680 Fantastic Hey, real pleasure. Thank you for the insight click you asked 746 01:10:53.680 --> 01:11:01.960 fantastic questions. This was really fun, so interesting. When I finished that 747 01:11:02.039 --> 01:11:09.159 interview with Anne Marie, I thought to myself, she is right on target. 748 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:13.399 She has an aptitude to do this kind of work, and I don't 749 01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:16.279 think anyone can do it. I don't think you can grab somebody off the 750 01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:19.640 street and say hey, I want you to learn how to do this. 751 01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:29.079 You have to have almost an insight into the process of leaving. And I 752 01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:33.840 believe, and I've heard and I've read, I've talked to elders that passing 753 01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:41.640 is a celebration in many ways. In the Indigenous community, someone who's dying 754 01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:47.479 is celebrated. They eat and they hang out together during the person's passing, 755 01:11:48.399 --> 01:11:56.560 and it is it's a celebration in life, but it's also part of the 756 01:11:57.039 --> 01:12:02.000 experience, the human experience to die. And we don't talk enough about this, 757 01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:06.399 and we don't understand it. We're all we're all about finding the perfect 758 01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:14.239 casket, the right burial ground, the right headstone. That's all marketing, 759 01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:19.840 that's all commercialized. We're forgetting the person, you know. And I think 760 01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:24.840 I mentioned it before. When my grandfather was passing, he did not want 761 01:12:24.880 --> 01:12:27.560 to be in a hospital, he did not want to be in a nursing 762 01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:31.199 home, hooked up to tubes and stuff like that. And he had the 763 01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:36.119 family around him right up until the point where he passed. And then there's 764 01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:41.039 procedures when somebody we didn't even get into this today, there's procedures. You 765 01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:43.600 got to have a death certificate and so forth and so on. So one 766 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:46.680 of my I think my it might have been my cousin who's a doctor, 767 01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:54.279 knew all this stuff and he had it all set up so when the EMT 768 01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:58.199 shows up, he did his sign off on it and then take the body. 769 01:12:59.319 --> 01:13:01.159 I don't know. It's as our Western culture is like, oh that's 770 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:02.760 a I don't want to see that. I don't want to see somebody. 771 01:13:03.960 --> 01:13:09.000 And I think it's important that we all see someone passing because it's part of 772 01:13:09.039 --> 01:13:12.760 our conditioning. It's part of our condition. It's part of our condition as 773 01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:18.279 a human being to see someone leaving their body. The other thing, which 774 01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:24.880 is so very important is this leads to consciousness. Talking of consciousness, what 775 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:29.880 happens when we die and atheists would say nothing, you go nowhere, you're 776 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:36.159 dead. But more of the indigenous and ancestral traditions are you're leaving. Your 777 01:13:36.239 --> 01:13:45.600 soul is leaving this encasement the body, and it's moving on. If you're 778 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:51.039 into Hindu traditions, okay, they're preparing the person and wondering where he's going 779 01:13:51.119 --> 01:13:55.880 to incarnate. This is where all these Dali lamas come from. It's like, 780 01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:59.840 okay, that guy, you know, the Dhali lama has lived so 781 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:04.399 twenty thousands of years and apparently there's a way to discover the child that's reborn, 782 01:14:05.720 --> 01:14:12.399 and they do a test and if he passes a test or has certain 783 01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:18.760 acknowledgement of key figures and words and items that the previous Dhali Lama had. 784 01:14:19.960 --> 01:14:27.720 The that's the reincarnated individual. That's kind of cool. That's kind of cool. 785 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:30.600 You gotta wonder about that. And then I have friends that are like, 786 01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:34.479 I don't want to come back to this. I am miserable, And 787 01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:39.520 I always say I have one really close college buddy who's like, I'm not 788 01:14:39.640 --> 01:14:44.279 coming back. I'm sick of this mess. I'm sick of the way earth. 789 01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:48.039 Well, the thing is, that's this incarnation. This is what's happening 790 01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:56.840 right now. There could be more pleasant incarnations. And I would love to 791 01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:00.840 have somebody write a book on Okay, writing the script for a lifetime. 792 01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:04.000 I think we've had a little bit of that with some of our guests. 793 01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:10.439 But you know what I mean, who are the souls and guides who you 794 01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:16.239 work with before you incarnate? Right? And is this script changeable? I 795 01:15:16.279 --> 01:15:19.079 think it is. I think you come in with a script, but you 796 01:15:19.119 --> 01:15:27.119 can modify it. So lots of lots to consider when you pass. But 797 01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:30.560 it's not like you know, oh, my god, that guy's dying. 798 01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:32.479 That woman, she is dying. I don't want to be around that. 799 01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:38.119 No, No, you have to change that attitude. I'm guilty of the 800 01:15:38.159 --> 01:15:41.680 thing too. I mean I've had relatives that are passing and I was like, 801 01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:45.079 I didn't necessarily enjoy their company that much, but I was like, 802 01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:49.479 I don't want to visit and then I'll be like I gotta say my goodbyes. 803 01:15:49.840 --> 01:15:57.760 So something to consider. Hey, are you thinking about holidays next year? 804 01:15:57.920 --> 01:16:00.760 What places you might want to go to? So much to do? 805 01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:08.000 So there's so many possibilities right now of where you can go. But I 806 01:16:08.039 --> 01:16:16.119 gotta tell you, one of the most amazing countries filled with antiquities is Egypt. 807 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:23.399 And we do a annual pilgrimage, if you want to call it that, 808 01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:30.800 to Egypt every year and it is only fascinating, but it is awakening, 809 01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:38.479 It is profound on a lot of different levels, and it is just 810 01:16:38.880 --> 01:16:42.960 a wonderful tour. It's our Grand Egyptian Tour. We do it every spring. 811 01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:49.039 The tour for twenty twenty four is April twenty sixth through May eighth, 812 01:16:50.520 --> 01:16:58.319 twenty twenty four, and we just recently posted our itinerary This is a chance 813 01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:03.760 to see some of the world's most fabulous temples, buildings, pyramids, and 814 01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:14.239 statuary by a genius culture we consider as the Egyptians. Now I am coming 815 01:17:14.239 --> 01:17:19.720 to the realization that a lot of these temples and things were there before they 816 01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:25.880 showed up, before the dynastic Egyptians showed up, and it's now proving. 817 01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:30.560 And we'll have Chris Dunn talk about a lot of the statuary was cut through 818 01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:38.520 some machinery or technology that cuts it perfectly. It's too perfect to be man 819 01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:42.760 made or man carved. But we get a chance to see all these wonderful 820 01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:47.680 statues, all these amazing temples in a private setting. And one of the 821 01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:54.520 beauties of our tours is that you join us and we see these things, 822 01:17:55.119 --> 01:18:00.000 these temples, these pyramids privately without the public, and it makes a huge, 823 01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:03.479 huge difference. It's not stressful, it's relaxed. We take our time, 824 01:18:03.560 --> 01:18:10.039 we see things that are typically not available to the general public, and 825 01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:14.399 we have a blast. Come out and join us. We're about halfway full. 826 01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:16.159 We take very few people. We want to take about a bus load 827 01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:21.560 hold about forty maybe fifty people at the max, and come out and join 828 01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:28.439 us. See the itinerary. Register, go to earthancients dot com, forward 829 01:18:28.439 --> 01:18:31.560 slash tours, look for the egypt banner and check it out. I mean, 830 01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:35.640 I've been talking about people considering it as a Christmas gift, but the 831 01:18:35.640 --> 01:18:41.960 more I think about it, it's more of a vacation time where you decompress 832 01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:45.920 from your work, decompress from your family, friends, loved ones, whatever. 833 01:18:45.399 --> 01:18:47.239 I mean, I got admit it. Even when I was married, 834 01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:53.399 I was like, can I go on vacation by myself? And some people 835 01:18:53.399 --> 01:18:56.720 would say, how dare you? How dare you leave your wife home? 836 01:18:57.399 --> 01:19:00.239 Well, you know, as much as you love people and sometimes you got 837 01:19:00.239 --> 01:19:05.039 to get out on your own. So I have my issues. So anyhow, 838 01:19:05.279 --> 01:19:10.159 come out and join us for the Grand Egyptian Tour and you can see 839 01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:14.640 the itinerary. You can register at earth ancients dot com forward slash tours. 840 01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:18.680 If you register before the end of the year, that's December thirty first, 841 01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:24.600 twenty twenty three, I'll extend in the discount of two hundred dollars off the 842 01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:30.159 registration price and all you got to do is use the code get twenty twenty 843 01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:35.039 four Grand Egyptian Tour twenty twenty four and we'll give you two hundred bucks off. 844 01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:41.359 Come out and join us see the ancient world, the beauty of some 845 01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:46.319 of these artifacts, the jewelry, the statuary of course, the temples, 846 01:19:46.359 --> 01:19:50.640 and of course our final visit before we all get back on a plane and 847 01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:55.399 fly home, Cufu Pyramid. We're geting a chance to see it on our 848 01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:58.680 own for two hours. You can you can see the Grand Gow, or 849 01:19:58.760 --> 01:20:02.760 you can see the King and the queens chamber quietly on your own. For 850 01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:11.039 more information and details Earthencients dot com, Forward slash Tours. All right, 851 01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:13.840 that's it for today's program. I want to thank my guest today, Ane 852 01:20:13.840 --> 01:20:17.000 Marie Cappel. Her book Death Nesting just came out. You can get it 853 01:20:17.079 --> 01:20:25.880 on Amazon and it's there to either download or purchase completely or purchase as a 854 01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:29.840 book. All right, As always, the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark 855 01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:35.960 Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys are amazing in your 856 01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:40.239 rock as well. All right, take care, be well and we will 857 01:20:40.279 --> 01:21:16.720 talk to you next time. And of the of the sloper as a sci