1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,960 Hey everyone, I recently wrapped my other show, Unsafe Spaces. It's an 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:13,599 investigative serialized true crime podcast that looks into Stephen Lorenzo and Scott Schweikert, two 3 00:00:13,839 --> 00:00:18,960 gay men who were targeting and murdering other gay men in the Tampa Bay area 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,559 of Florida. Season one is complete and bingeable now, So while you're waiting 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,000 for the next season of true crime bullshit coming next month, I'll be sharing 6 00:00:28,039 --> 00:00:33,159 the first four episodes of Unsafe Spaces with you here. Listen and then head 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,359 on over to Unsafe Spaces and Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now and binge 8 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:57,240 the rest of the season. This is a studio both and production. Let's 9 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:06,040 violate the world, bring our fantasies to realities. I'm extreme, calculated and 10 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:11,159 loved. Easy to make them vanish with no link to us in the least, 11 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:19,840 easier to find a loner guy less connection. I do a chokehold from 12 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:26,040 behind. You hold him down, strap him up, not to be found 13 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:34,040 again. He wasn't going to be going back. These are quotes from America 14 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:41,439 Online instant messages between Master Scott, whom we now know is Scott Schweipert and 15 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:56,400 dom dude for sub who we now know is Stephen Lorenzo. Whenever I take 16 00:01:56,439 --> 00:02:01,640 on a new case, the first question I find my self asking is how 17 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:09,159 did we get here? What series of events, both personal and anthropological, 18 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:16,840 created an environment for these crimes to have occurred? And in this case the 19 00:02:16,879 --> 00:02:22,639 answer is a lot more complicated than in others I've cover, because in order 20 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:28,520 to understand these crimes, we have to understand not just gay culture, but 21 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:35,719 societies effect on it. We have to understand power dynamics and couples. We 22 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,759 have to take a look at law enforcements and media's roles in crime. It's 23 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:49,159 often a challenging, convoluted, and heartbreaking study in humanity, and so it's 24 00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:53,840 hard to know just where to start, because more often than not, beginnings 25 00:02:53,879 --> 00:03:00,039 are just the reverberations from a coalescence of events that came before. Few things 26 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:08,680 rarely begin any more. Usually they just carry over. But for now, 27 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:20,400 I guess we'll start with December twenty second of two thousand three. On December 28 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,879 twenty second, two thousand three, there were two different missing persons cases filed 29 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,000 with the Tampa, Florida Police Department. The first was of twenty six year 30 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:36,520 old Jason Rodney Gale House, a gay man who had recently moved to Tampa 31 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:42,560 from Sarasota, Florida. Jason was reported missing by his roommate at eleven twenty 32 00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:46,879 five a m. On the morning of the twenty second. His roommate reported 33 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:50,639 that on the night of Friday, December nineteenth, he, Jason, and 34 00:03:50,719 --> 00:03:54,280 two of their friends a couple, had gone out bar hopping in Tampa. 35 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,400 The four of them eventually ended up at twenty six o six, a gay 36 00:04:00,439 --> 00:04:04,759 bar on North Armenia Avenue, in the early morning hours of December twentieth. 37 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:12,039 Because the four friends had driven to twenty six oh six together, Jason didn't 38 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,680 have his car with him, and when it was time to leave, Jason 39 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,360 told his friends that he didn't need a ride because he was going to go 40 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:25,360 home with two guys he'd met at the bar. It was the last time 41 00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:30,959 that Jason's friend saw him, and unfortunately, none of them saw either of 42 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:36,639 the two men that Jason left the bar with. Detective Carlos Lastra was the 43 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:43,199 responding officer in Jason's missing person case, and he took the disappearance seriously. 44 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,639 Immediately following Jason's roommate's interview and AFFI. David Lastra went to Jason's place of 45 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:55,360 work, a flower shop where Jason was a floral designer, and upon interviewing 46 00:04:55,439 --> 00:05:00,000 Jason's boss, he learned that Jason hadn't been to work in three days, 47 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:05,879 which was very unlike him. In a follow up interview with Jason's roommate, 48 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,240 the one who had reported him missing, he told Lastra that he had known 49 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:16,199 Jason for years, that they were childhood friends. Back in Sarasota, he 50 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:21,399 let Lastra search the house that he shared with Jason and another roommate, and 51 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:26,600 when pressed about Jason's life, he admitted that Jason had been to the hospital 52 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,480 on two different occasions for drug overdoses, but that had been years prior. 53 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:36,639 He said that since then, Jason no longer used GHB. JHB is a 54 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:43,319 depressant drug that slows down messages traveling between the brain and the body. It's 55 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,839 also a party drug and often referred to as the date rape drug. But 56 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:54,920 he said that Jason did still occasionally snort cocaine and that Jason had been going 57 00:05:54,959 --> 00:06:00,519 to twenty six oh six every weekend for the past several months. He said 58 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:03,879 that Jason did have a habit of using recreational drugs and hooking up with guys 59 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:09,639 from the bars, and he confirmed that after reaching out to friends, no 60 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,480 one in their friend group had seen nor heard from Jason since he left the 61 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:25,160 bar that night. The second missing person's report that was filed with Tampa Pedee 62 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:30,199 on the twenty second was for twenty six year old Michael Wockles. Michael had 63 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,600 recently moved to Tampa from Tarpin Springs, Florida, about forty miles away northwest. 64 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:42,759 He was working as a waiter at Bahama Breeze. According to his former 65 00:06:42,879 --> 00:06:46,160 roommates, Michael was a happy, go lucky guy who'd recently reconnected with his 66 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:54,000 estranged mother and had begun dating again after a breakup the previous year. They 67 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,079 said that Michael had started going out with men he'd met in internet chat rooms 68 00:06:58,759 --> 00:07:02,800 and that it was something they worry about. But it was Michael's new roommate, 69 00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:08,800 Fred Van Denavel, who reported him missing when he failed to return home 70 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:15,000 from a night out. According to reports, Michael was last seen in his 71 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:20,000 red nineteen ninety two jeep Cherokee leaving his Bay Club apartment in Tampa's Rocky Point 72 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:28,040 neighborhood between eleven pm and midnight on December twentieth, almost twenty four hours after 73 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:34,800 Jason Galehouse was last seen leaving twenty six oh six. It was unclear where 74 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:40,199 exactly Michael was headed that night. He spoke with several friends on his cell 75 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,120 phone after leaving his apartment, but only said that he was going out for 76 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,800 drinks. Michael's cell phone and jeep disappeared with him, and there'd be no 77 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:55,360 signs of Michael nor any major leads in his case for two weeks following his 78 00:07:55,439 --> 00:08:07,000 disappearance. Now, there are a few different things at play in the production 79 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,120 of this podcast. For one, I am a gay man around the same 80 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,839 age Michael and Jason would be now, so it's hard not to experience this 81 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:24,920 investigation or see the people involved through a personal lens. Second, and more 82 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:30,920 critical, the only way to discuss this case holistically is to share as best 83 00:08:30,959 --> 00:08:35,759 I can the gay experience and gay culture written large. It's a defining factor 84 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:41,159 in both this story and in the spaces we'll be discussing, and despite how 85 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:48,879 media often portrays it, homosexuality is not a monolith. So throughout the season, 86 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,879 I'll be playing conversations I've had with gay men across the country and of 87 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:58,799 all ages about their experiences and how those experiences have defined their relationship with homes, 88 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:05,679 sexuality, their relationships with other gay men, and their identity as a 89 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,679 whole. This is a part of a conversation I had with an old friend, 90 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:18,759 Eric Schmidt about drug and alcohol abuse amongst gay men. Drug and alcohol 91 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,879 abuse runs pretty rampant within the gay community, or at least it did when 92 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:26,159 you know, when we were I think it's I think it still does, 93 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,679 and you know, I for me, I can only imagine that that comes 94 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:39,440 from or I will speak for myself, like when I have over imbibed or 95 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:48,320 put myself in risky positions with substances, it was because I didn't feel comfortable 96 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:56,679 in my own skin, or I had self loathing or lack of confidence and 97 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:03,120 was just afraid and needed something to take my head away from my body. 98 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,320 I guess yeah, And I wonder if that has been your experience as well. 99 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,120 I absolutely, I would say absolutely. I think I think also, 100 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,799 you know, again, going back to that, like we don't we don't 101 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:26,960 date as teenagers, we don't learn how to form intimate relationships with people as 102 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,720 teenagers, and then drugs and alcoholicure do make that easier. I think a 103 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:46,480 lot of my drug use was was very wrapped up in the perceived intimacy of 104 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,279 either getting high with somebody, using with somebody, the sex that we were 105 00:10:50,320 --> 00:11:00,440 going to have while we were while we were high. Absolutely when hand in 106 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:09,120 hand with me being able to move into a sexual space that I you know, 107 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:16,320 didn't get in the shallow into the poolng. It's almost like all growing 108 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:20,399 up, you know, being gay was bad, Gay intimacy was bad, 109 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:22,360 Gay sex is bad. If you yeah, it's going to kill you. 110 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,559 It'll kill you, or you'll get gay bashed, it's God will hate you, 111 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,840 your parents will leave you. Like, at least in the eighties and 112 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,440 nineties, like everything that was hammered into by everyone around you for the most 113 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:43,039 part was that being gay and having gay sex and having gay relationships was only 114 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,159 going to lead to heartbreak, death, trouble. And so yeah, like 115 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:54,559 being intimate in any way or vulnerable with other gay men was terrifying. And 116 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,679 I think for me that was like I need to be drunk to be in 117 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:05,799 this space because I can't acknowledge what this space represents. Yeah, and Unfortunately, 118 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,559 I you know, that got me in trouble when I when I got 119 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,960 to San Francisco. My my drug use absolutely got me in trouble, and 120 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:26,919 it slid out of control very very quickly, and was tied to the first 121 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:30,879 time in my life that I felt attractive, the first time in my life 122 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,559 that I was starting to understand myself and my body sexually. It was just 123 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:46,159 unfortunate that so much of that was tied up in drug use. But it 124 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:52,600 was the drug use that made me comfortable enough to figure myself out. Unfortunately, 125 00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:54,559 then I had to figure out how to get out of the drug the 126 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:01,759 drug use. It's interesting you saying, you know the first time you felt 127 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:05,960 attractive, Like I remember moving to San Francisco very young, I think it 128 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,919 was eighteen, and thinking I'm going to finally have my gay community, Like 129 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,320 this is a space where I can be safe and have like a brotherhood and 130 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,840 share experiences and everyone knows what I've been through and so we're going to look 131 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:26,840 out for each other, and like you can find that, or I was 132 00:13:26,919 --> 00:13:31,080 able to find that, But mostly what I felt was a lot of the 133 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:37,840 things we're talking about, like predation, bitchiness, people like sub categorizing or 134 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:43,039 subculturing and othering every gay person they could. You know, gay people like 135 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:48,639 to put people in boxes. And it was just like the predation in particular 136 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,559 was like I had never felt sexy or attractive because you know, whether girls 137 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,840 knew I was gay or not, I think their spidy senses were always up. 138 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,080 And so it was like, you know, I had never felt wanted 139 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:09,200 or attractive until I was around gay men. But a lot of that was 140 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:16,039 applied through what felt predatory or you know, I'm going to hurt you so 141 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,559 you can't hurt me and m so then like, you know, you internalize 142 00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:28,840 that as like the only way I can be attractive is if someone's like taking 143 00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:31,679 my control away from me, or taking my power away from me, or 144 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:37,960 treating me like shit. Yeah, the things that I think the things that 145 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:43,960 like the popular teenage girls go through in middle school and they hopefully figure it 146 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:50,360 out. But yeah, now, and I don't mean to laugh about it. 147 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,200 It's just when what what what you describe is is what I think is 148 00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:01,960 taken away from so so many queer people is that you don't have like the 149 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,320 formative years, this stuff just isn't there. And then by the time it 150 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,000 happens you're old enough that you have access to money, and you have access 151 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,360 to alcohol, and you have access to drugs, and and just it all 152 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:22,120 gets I think for so many gay, gay man or queer people, it 153 00:15:22,159 --> 00:15:26,679 gets really jumbled up. And I think for a lot of us, it 154 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,480 takes a long time to come out the other side of them and see ourselves 155 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:37,200 as like who we really are. We see ourselves as the attractive person that 156 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,080 we are, the giving, the generous, the sexual, the you know, 157 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,559 all of the things that we can be. And you know, it's 158 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:52,320 unfortunate that sometimes these realizations come really late in the game. I mean, 159 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:56,600 I look at pictures of myself in my New York years, in my twenties, 160 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,919 in my early twenties, my late teens, in my early twenties, 161 00:15:58,919 --> 00:16:02,600 and I'm like, who is that adorable little boy? Why was he not 162 00:16:02,799 --> 00:16:04,679 dating? Why was he not out there? Like? How did I not? 163 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:15,720 How did I not know how valuable I really was? And at forty 164 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,440 eight years old, I could look back as somebody that is mostly sober, 165 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:22,919 that you know, is in a stable relationship. I look back and I'm 166 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,159 like, oh, that poor kid, Like I wish I wish you didn't 167 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,159 have to travel through all the bullshit you were going to go through before you 168 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,440 got to this point. Well, and how could you know your value if 169 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:48,919 you know all of society was telling you you had none. Right. The 170 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,279 first significant lead in either case occurred on January sixth of two thousand and four, 171 00:16:56,039 --> 00:16:59,840 just several weeks after Michael and Jason were both reported missing. On December 172 00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:07,079 twenty second, Michael Wocoltz's red Jeep Cherokee was discovered parked at the Camden Bay 173 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,519 Point Apartment Complex, a Memorial highway on the outskirts of Tampa between Old Tampa 174 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:18,319 Bay and the Tampa International Airport. A passerby had noticed that the jeep had 175 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:23,000 been parked near the leasing office for quite some time, and upon further investigation, 176 00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:29,400 they saw what appeared to be a body in the trunk, and sure 177 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:34,559 enough, when Tampa police investigators arrived, they found the decomposing body of a 178 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:42,440 man wrapped in a sheet in the trunk of the jeep. It took several 179 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:49,319 days to confirm that the body was in fact Michael Walchole's. An autopsy was 180 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:56,240 conducted on January seventh, but due to the state of decomposition, the medical 181 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:00,880 examiner could not determine a cause of death. People feared that they may never 182 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:11,920 know what happened to Michael. Investigators were fairly conservative about not jumping to any 183 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:18,759 conclusions regarding whether this proved that Michael's death was a homicide, but what they 184 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:23,480 were certain of was that someone else had to be involved. Someone had to 185 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:30,920 have dropped Michael's car off at that apartment complex. Two theories emerged amongst the 186 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:37,240 general public and media, one that Michael had been murdered, and two that 187 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:42,279 Michael had overdosed on drugs and that someone, out of fear and hoping to 188 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:49,680 remain anonymous, drove his jeep and body to the parking lot. Tampa police 189 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:56,200 were also careful not to jump to any conclusions connecting Michael's death and Jason Galehouse's 190 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,559 disappearance. The lead detectives in each case continued you to share information with one 191 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:07,759 another, but had no strong evidence connecting the two cases. Lastra and the 192 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:11,920 Block. The two lead detectives in Jason's case continued canvassing the gay areas of 193 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:19,519 Tampa, interviewing Jason's friends and family, and eventually looking into other Tampa crimes 194 00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:26,160 that could be connected and soon, those three tactics would align in a way 195 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:37,519 that changed the investigations into both Gaelhouse and Wokle's dramatically. On January twenty eighth 196 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:42,720 of two thousand and four, Tampa Peade pulled missing persons reports for two other 197 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:49,119 local cases of missing gay men, James Mark Schumacher and Bradley Lee Williams. 198 00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:56,079 James Shoemaker was last seen at a Tampa gay bar, the Parthenon, on 199 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:02,359 October twentieth of nineteen ninety five. James years old at the time and much 200 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,880 like Jason Galehouse. On the night that James disappeared, he had been driven 201 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,039 to the Parthenon, so he didn't have his car with him. Unfortunately, 202 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,480 no one recalled seeing him leave the bar that night, and he's never been 203 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:22,400 seen nor heard from since. James was reported missing several days after he was 204 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:29,279 last seen. Extensive air service and canine searches were conducted in the investigation into 205 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:36,000 James's disappearance, and numerous potential witnesses were interviewed, but there were no signs 206 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:45,000 of James, nor was there any solid information regarding his whereabouts. Bradley Lee 207 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,279 Williams was last seen on June eighth of two thousand and one, near the 208 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:55,720 sixty three hundred block of Southwest Shore Boulevard in Tampa. The following day, 209 00:20:55,839 --> 00:20:59,960 he missed a shift at his job at the local post office. However, 210 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,799 according to the Charlie Project, Bradley wasn't reported missing for over a week and 211 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:08,319 a half after he was last seen, due largely in part to his friends 212 00:21:08,319 --> 00:21:14,200 and coworkers assuming he'd just quit his job. But when his family didn't hear 213 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,440 from him on Father's Day June seventeenth, nine days after he was last seen, 214 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,319 they knew something was wrong. After several attempts to get a hold of 215 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:30,920 him, they reported him missing to Tampa PDE. When police arrived at Bradley's 216 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,240 house, it was clear that he hadn't been there in quite some time. 217 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,799 His two cats and pet parakeet were on the brink of starvation. In the 218 00:21:40,839 --> 00:21:45,000 search of his house, police found Bradley's wallet and cell phone and determined that 219 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:53,160 his car had disappeared with him. Tampa PEDE eventually recovered his car, which 220 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,440 had been abandoned in a strip mall parking lot on Kennedy Boulevard in Tampa, 221 00:21:59,079 --> 00:22:04,240 about a blockdown the street from the Metropolis Gay Club. Bradley was thirty years 222 00:22:04,279 --> 00:22:08,359 old, six foot two, and weighed approximately one hundred seventy pounds at the 223 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:15,279 time of his disappearance. Both Bradley Lee Williams and James Mark Schumacher's cases remain 224 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:22,759 unsolved and to have gone cold. In going through those records and several other 225 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:29,680 police reports involving Tampa's gay community, Tampa Peedy compiled a list of ten individuals 226 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,960 and requested driver and vehicle information and criminal histories for all ten. Three of 227 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,279 those names were redacted from the files sent to us, including one which was 228 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:48,880 marked deceased with a notation that his death was under investigation by Tampa Homicide. 229 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:55,240 Two were Bradley Williams and James Shoemaker, four were Tampa area gay men with 230 00:22:55,319 --> 00:23:02,599 a history of drug and alcohol related charges, and the tenth was Mark Allan 231 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:12,039 Thompson. Mark Alan Thompson was thirty years old when he disappeared from Clearwater, 232 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,359 Florida, a coastal city just twenty five miles west across Tampa Bay from Tampa. 233 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,640 Mark was last seen just after midnight on November first of two thousand one. 234 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,799 He was leaving the Pro Shop Pub, a gay bar on Cleveland Street 235 00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:36,079 in downtown Clearwater after celebrating Halloween there with friends. Mark's mother, whom he 236 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,759 was living with at the time, reported that he had never made at home 237 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:45,319 that night. The following evening, the night of November first, she reported 238 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,279 him missing after he failed to show up to work that day. Four days 239 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:55,160 later, Mark's nineteen ninety eight Ford Ranger pick up truck was found abandoned at 240 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,000 an undisclosed location in Tampa. Mark was never found and his remains open. 241 00:24:04,319 --> 00:24:10,240 Between nineteen ninety five and December of two thousand and three, police determined that 242 00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:15,039 there were at least five unsolved missing persons cases involving gay men who were last 243 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:21,079 seen in or near Tampa area gay bars, and in the midst of their 244 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:26,200 investigations into the disappearances of Jason Galehouse and Michael Wachold's Tampa Peedee, were starting 245 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:33,799 to wonder if these disappearances could all be connected and it wasn't just these missing 246 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:41,000 persons cases. There was talk amongst Tampa's gay hustler scene of horrendous assaults and 247 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:52,079 sex work gone terribly wrong. These chats give a glimpse into the minds of 248 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,279 Scott Schweibert and Stephen Lorenzo. The chots lay out their ideas and their plans 249 00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:04,160 and their design or two as they said, quote pray on the vulnerability of 250 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:11,519 their victims. Most importantly, your honor will hear from Master Scott himself, 251 00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:18,319 Scott Schweigert. He'll tell the court how he and mister Lorenzo were linked together 252 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,119 by Limit Expander, that is the screen name of an individual who linked these 253 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,160 two gentlemen together. You will learn how their friendship, if you call it 254 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:37,240 that, progressed. You'll learn that mister Lorenzo considers himself to be the experienced 255 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:44,200 bondage master, and that mister Schweikert was a novice. Both men, through 256 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,839 the course of their we'll call it relationship from October to December of two thousand 257 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:53,480 and three, ultimately had the same goal. They wanted to find unsuspecting young 258 00:25:53,559 --> 00:26:00,799 men who were alone in bars. They befriended them and and then invited them 259 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:04,440 back to Stephen Lorenzo's house, which was on Pwhattan Avenue within the city of 260 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:14,319 Tampa, for some drinks and a conceptual bondage session. However, mister Schweikert 261 00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:18,279 and mister Lorenzo had different plans. Once the young men were to get back 262 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,759 to mister Lorenzo's house, they were going to and I quote from the chats, 263 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:30,000 use and abuse them to see how far mister Schweikert and mister Lorenzo would 264 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:48,720 go and to see how well they would work together. On January twenty seventh 265 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:52,400 of two thousand and four, Tampa peed Detective John Columbia made his way to 266 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,599 a local church on Kennedy Boulevard, several blocks from Metropolis, the gay club 267 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:04,079 where Bradley Williams car was found after he disappeared. Columbia was looking for a 268 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:10,319 gay man who went by Cubo, a man who frequented the church for free 269 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,920 lunches. There had been talk around the gay hustler seeing that Cubo and a 270 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,559 friend of his had been attacked by a man that they'd each gone home with 271 00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:29,039 to have sex in exchange for drugs. According to a bartender at the gay 272 00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:34,200 bar, Kiki Kikubo and one of his friends were gay street hustlers, and 273 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,240 each of them had a separate encounter with this man who picked them up, 274 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,480 offered them drugs, took them home, and then assaulted them. He beat 275 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:56,119 them, raped them, and covered their faces with saran wrap. The bartender 276 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,440 told Kubo and his friend to report the incident, but they refused used, 277 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:08,119 citing their own criminal histories and a general fear of the police. When Columbia 278 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,799 discovered that Cubo had left town for the day, he continued returning to that 279 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,519 church daily and hopes to track him down and get the full story. On 280 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,720 the twenty ninth, while he was at the church for the third day in 281 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,640 a row looking for Cubo, he got a call from an unknown man. 282 00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:30,880 The man told him that he met an Italian man at Club twenty six oh 283 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,400 six on a Saturday night in May of two thousand and three. After talking 284 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,960 for a while, the man agreed to go home with this Italian man. 285 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,880 They drove in separate cars to his house, which was near the Save a 286 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:52,519 lot on West Hillsborough Have in the Seminole Heights neighborhood of Tampa. The caller 287 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:56,319 told Columbia that upon arriving at the Italian man's house, he was poured a 288 00:28:56,319 --> 00:29:00,839 glass of wine and they talked about their lives while sipping that wine, and 289 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:08,039 then he blacked out. The next thing he remembered was waking up at six 290 00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:14,119 a m. Naked and tied to the man's bed. When he asked to 291 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,519 be untied, the man told him that he wasn't free to leave, and 292 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:25,680 then he said that he was going to take his car park it in a 293 00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:33,920 random parking lot and that no one would ever find him. The man kept 294 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,880 him there, tied to the bed for eleven hours, and then without any 295 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:47,319 theatrix, he simply untied him and let him go at five p m. 296 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:52,079 The collar described the man as short, with a white car and an Italian 297 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,559 sounding name. He said the man told him he'd previously been self employed as 298 00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:04,119 a handyman. Fortunately, the caller had the wherewithal to write down the address 299 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,519 of the house as he was leaving that night. He told Columbia that the 300 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:15,440 man lived at two thirteen West Powaton Avenue and that he could certainly pick him 301 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:22,799 out of any line up. He also told Columbia that he'd previously reported the 302 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:27,160 incident to detective to Bloc that he wanted the man prosecuted, but nothing ever 303 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,640 came of it. After the phone call and the stories about Cubo and his 304 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:40,240 friend, Columbia began going through old police reports involving assaults in the Tampa gay 305 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:47,440 community, and he found drug facilitated sexual assaults of at least four men reported 306 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,200 in the Tampa area. Police had several different suspects that they were looking at 307 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,480 for these assaults, one of whom was a man well known in Tampa's gay 308 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:04,480 BDSM scene, a man aimed Stephen Lorenzo, And it turned out that Stephen 309 00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:15,400 Lorenzo lived at two thirteen West Powaton Ave. And then the other thing, 310 00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:18,680 which maybe you could help me with it, because I'm I can't. You 311 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,880 know, it's hard not to project while I'm doing this just as a gay 312 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,720 man. Oh, you know, I wonder and it comes up with keys 313 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:37,480 too, like is there an anti LGBTQ culture at play here? Like? 314 00:31:37,759 --> 00:31:45,519 Is there a self loathing internalized homophobia at play? The idea of gay men 315 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,720 targeting other gay men, Like, there's two obvious buckets. One is that's 316 00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:53,799 because they're who they're sexually attracted to. The other is it's some sort of 317 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:59,599 internalized homophobia. Well, you know, you and I have a bit of 318 00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:06,039 a general rational difference in our ages, and it's you know, a question 319 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:14,559 like that requires me to do some discernment while also respecting the intersection of identities. 320 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:20,200 This is doctor Scott from the La Not So Confidential podcast. He's a 321 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,960 licensed clinical psychologist who works in forensics with law enforcement in Los Angeles. He 322 00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:31,440 specializes in identity development and specialized populations. You'll be hearing more from him throughout 323 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,519 the season. But this is a conversation we had in our pre interview about 324 00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:43,759 how to communicate about gay culture and BDSM. I only think that the generation 325 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:50,519 that's maybe post twenty five years, what would that make them sillennials, those 326 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:55,759 are probably the ones that have more of a tendency to be free of internalized 327 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,519 homophobia. My generation nobody got away from it. You know, even even 328 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:06,599 my friends and colleagues that are like have been like, even those that are 329 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:14,119 driven by activism and driven by you know, reclaiming the word queer. And 330 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:20,839 that doesn't just because you inhabit that space doesn't mean that you're free of internalized 331 00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:25,480 homophobia. In fact, you may be running away from it in that way 332 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,759 versus running to it. But that being said, I don't know if that's 333 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:37,519 the driver here, and that falls a little bit into it leans a little 334 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:42,240 bit more towards and this is no reflection on what your question is. But 335 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:45,559 like sort of the junk science we had about the schizophrenogenic mother when we used 336 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:49,799 to say, well, if the male child did something, or if the 337 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,599 male child is mentally ill, it's mom's fault, right, So there may 338 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,799 be something that plays at it, But I would tend more especially you know, 339 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:07,200 psychopathy trumps everything. You know, It's just like when psychopathy like there 340 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,760 is in Lorenzo, when it's that high a level, there's no room for 341 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:17,079 internalized homophobia because he doesn't have a functioning amygdala or a functioning medula that processes 342 00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:22,599 the Lindux system messages about empathy and compassion. He doesn't give a shit. 343 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,159 Yeah, so he's not going to be hampered by it. So if that's 344 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,920 something that you'd like, if that's a kind of a response and I could 345 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,159 offer, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. I think for me, 346 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,840 like I've been spending a little bit of time trying to paint a picture of 347 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:44,320 gay culture and how it in many ways is a product of societal perspectives. 348 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,000 I just don't know if that's a feudal device or not in this well, 349 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,079 it could be for the victims. Yeah, I mean I think that that'd 350 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:59,000 be because it is a rarefied environment which those victims were found, right, 351 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,880 Yeah, and that you know part of I mean, I would say this 352 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,360 if like with these crimes only being a couple of decades old rather than fifty 353 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,760 or sixty years old in the gay community that existed at that time, which 354 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,440 was very very drug driven. You know, there's a lot less drugs involved 355 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:25,320 or chemsects in the BDSM community now. But look there, and this may 356 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,719 be this may be too much for your audience, but a lot of what 357 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,679 drives this I think. I mean, I won't speak for the women and 358 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:42,079 the lesbians that have their own version of the BDSM community, but there's so 359 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,800 much of this that has to do with daddy issues. So much of it, 360 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,960 Josh, you know, like that idea. You know, even kids 361 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,199 today. I say when I say kids, when younger generations today have more 362 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,119 freedom and see and exploring their sexuality, they don't have the baggage that I 363 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,920 have. There's still something that's about a child in that developmental period knows that 364 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:14,559 they are different, and they know that they're different because it's just because kids 365 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,440 are smart. Toddlers are smart, and they pick up if there's something that's 366 00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:23,880 not quite the same about them and the way their gaze looks at other individuals 367 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,760 around them, and parents consciously or unconsciously pick up on that and then they 368 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:37,199 replay consciously or unconsciously all that back to their kids. So my experience as 369 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:42,239 a clinician is that so many of these people are working out. Look, 370 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,719 every relationship we have is working out family. It's working out family baggage. 371 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,119 There's no escaping in it, right. But within the leather of community, 372 00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:53,159 you know, you'll hear this among guys, it's like, well, yeah, 373 00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:58,360 I'm the daddy, but you know, even daddies need daddy's and you 374 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,000 know, it just goes on. There's just like hierarchy, not hierarchy, 375 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:07,800 but there's a chain of attempts at reparenting by using these tools of bondage and 376 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:15,360 discipline that you know, I think it ends up being a version of sexual 377 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,119 alchemy for the people that participate in it, whether they realize that's what they're 378 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:28,320 doing or not. Now, it's important to paint a picture of Tampa in 379 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,480 the late nineties and early oughts, and an even broader picture of gay culture 380 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:38,800 at the time. Throughout the nineties, Tampa ped was under fire for what 381 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:47,440 the ACLU called discriminatory police stings which targeted gay men. They accused the police 382 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,920 force of using entrapment tactics to arrest gay men and then use those arrests for 383 00:37:53,119 --> 00:38:00,199 publicity. And that is just a microcosm of how gay men were treated by 384 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:06,639 law enforcement and society writ large. At the time, police and cities across 385 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:13,239 the country seemed to quietly adopt a tough on gaze policy, and assaults on 386 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:20,639 gay men weren't generally taken seriously, if they were even reported. The relationship 387 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:27,880 between the gay community and law enforcement was fraught at best. Gay men rarely 388 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:35,239 felt safe reporting any gay related crimes to the police, and while society's views 389 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:42,239 on homosexuality were very slowly changing, much of the trust had been completely eroded 390 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,559 by the gay bar raids of the sixties and seventies, the complete dismissal of 391 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:52,679 the AIDS crisis in the eighties, the denial of basic human equality from both 392 00:38:52,719 --> 00:39:02,599 the church and the state in the nineties and onward. So Stephen Lorenzo felt 393 00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:08,480 he could operate in the open and with impunity because he'd essentially been told by 394 00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:17,960 society that he could. But the gay community always rises up to plan. 395 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:24,119 We thought we knew what it all looked like. We were looking out on 396 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,599 the greatest view. We were raised to take a stand. We were always 397 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:38,800 to keep an open mind. We believe we're just say alone through Now I'm 398 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:44,920 one hundred miles an hour, sitting in my palace without any power, alone 399 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,559 in the dark. We're alone in the dark. Thought we could always try 400 00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:54,000 a bit harder. But if the dice don or all in your favor, 401 00:39:54,199 --> 00:40:05,280 that falls apart. The fantasy falls apart. This is Fantasyson, Miss Dumdulli 402 00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:15,119 and on Down's very of a turb road, impen sabrets from the Dods a 403 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,320 million it. I heard you better on your own, but I'm gonna face 404 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:28,360 this confuse. This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me 405 00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:34,960 Your Host Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Kaz Resources included the Charlie Project, 406 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:38,960 name us uncovered, the Clearwater Police Department, the Tampa Bay Times, 407 00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:45,960 and the Tampa Police Department. This episode featured Eric Schmidt and Doctor Scott from 408 00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:50,880 La Not So Confidential. To support this investigation, go to Patreon, dot 409 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:57,559 com, slash Studio both and This episode included music by color Book Ya haskelrez 410 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:06,599 Ronite yourtomagamb and Rasburg, with featured music by Joseph Salvat. Voices were forgotten, 411 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:12,280 All the trucks were given up. Only sorry for a moment. No, 412 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,320 it was no one near enough, but a taste it as it comes. 413 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:22,000 I taste it as I only can't I take it off and run worth 414 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:30,599 it goes because this is old fantasiason. Tim is up, Tom dully and 415 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:38,960 get on down this very over trivy rope, overpen save brit from the doors. 416 00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:44,239 A million it. I heard you better off on your own. But 417 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:50,800 I'm gonna face this also. I've been heading you. I will need me 418 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:58,119 too. Putting the stains gather, putting the stains gather. I haven't heeding 419 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,800 you. I don't know you will eave images? What are these stands together? 420 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:31,360 Putting scads together? So you so I don't need it. I don't 421 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,480 know with the images, putting the skins together, putting the skin together, 422 00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:45,599 I haven't eating you. I don't know you believe images? What are the 423 00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:52,800 stand together? What the stand together? So I mean, I don't know 424 00:42:53,199 --> 00:43:00,840 with the images, butting schange together, put these games together? How he 425 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,440 now know we will hear the justice. But the way to get others? 426 00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:13,280 What is way to get at? So he's new