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Welcome to the world of Oklahoma's education, starring none other than State Superintendent Ryan

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Walters. Hold on tight, because
this guy's been spending more tales than a

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wizard at Hogwarts. Today we're throwing
some serious shade on Superintendent Walters, so

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hold on to your textbooks. Walters
has been lying through his teeth about the

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Freedom From Religion Foundation. His claims
that they want to snatch away religious freedom

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total fiction and that funded by George
Sorow's bit not even close to reality.

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Join us as we crank up the
volume on the call for Walter's resignations,

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setting the record straight on FFRF's commitment
to constitutional principles, and the call for

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Walters to exit stage left. Buckle
up, it's about to get real.

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This story is from FFRF dot org
and it's written by Dan Barker and Annie

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Lourigaylor on November twenty ninth, twenty
twenty three. So this was actually it

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was more of an open letter than
it was an article. And so this

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letter was written by Dan Barker and
any LORII Gaylor, who are co presidents

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of the Freedom From Religion Foundation,
and their letter specifically mentions some recent attacks

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on them by Ryan Walters. For
example, he said that the FFRF is

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quote seeking to take away the religious
freedom of Oklahoma students and that they are

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quote funded by George sorows. Of
course they are right, of course they

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are. Their letter also recounts many
of their recent squabbles that the FFRF has

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had that has brought to Walter's attention, promoting Christianity by calling for the posting

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of the Ten Commandments, scapegoating atheism, and recent social media posts made with

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public accounts claiming that they are promoting
state sponsored atheism, publishing a video via

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his office calling for the banning of
one hundred and ninety books on the American

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Library Association's Rainbow book list, claiming
that they contain graphic pornography. I think

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we've heard that before, suggesting students
should be taught from the Christian Bible,

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supporting the establishment of the nation's first
religious charter school, and also for threatening

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retaliation against the Tulsa Public School Board
for stopping a board member from reading a

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prayer at the graduation ceremony. That
last one, by the way, was

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largely directed against the interim Superintendent of
Tulsa Public Schools, doctor Ebonie Johnson.

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She offered a counter memo to defend
herself and her district employees, but it

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goes a bit astray from what we're
discussing here, so I'll put the full

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link to that full TPS memo into
the show notes. So the letter ends,

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of course then with Dan Barker and
any Lorie Gaylor calling for Ryan's resignation.

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So, Eli, tell us,
what's your take on this letter here?

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Yeah, I think this letter was
kind of badass. Honestly, I

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loved reading this because it was kind
of like a fight me challenge written by

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like a lawful, neutral paladin of
public relations. I love how many different

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ways they reiterated, like hey,
you know, by the way, this

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is a crime and you're not allowed
to do that, and you're absolutely not

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allowed to do this. And the
video was supposed to be Ryan Walters video

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was supposed to be his sort of
liketuring like grandstand molen Lob kind of you

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know, defiant last stand against the
ffl F, and they're basically just like,

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okay, whatever, like you're still
committing crimes, so like we'll see

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you in court. And I like
how Superintendent Walters also says, you know,

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we will not allow atheism to be
the state sponsored religion of Oklahoma.

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So he doesn't think that Oklahoma shouldn't
have a state sponsored religion. He doesn't

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understand why you should keep those two
things separate. He just thinks that,

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well, it can't be atheism,
it must be Christianity. It's super duper

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not the point. Also, but
I just it's really bugs me when people

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call it atheism or religion. Like
we were just talking about this a little

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bit ago, it's just not that, and it's you know, and I

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think on one of last week's shows
it was mentioned as well, but preach

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into the choir here, right,
Yeah, no, I know we all

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know that, right. Uh So
when the ffr F says, you know,

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no, you can't broadcast a prayer
through school to a captive audience of

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miners who don't have the knowledge or
legal capacity to consent, people like Ryan

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Walters who see, you know,
not having a religion as a religion,

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they see that as oh, you
nasty little Christian kids better not even think

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about the cross in my schools.
And that's just not what's happening. And

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people like Ryan Walters want to present
it that way and have this whole you

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know, Christian persecution and war on
Christmas? Is there there is a similar

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uh you know vein that people take
this down all the time when it's about

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this Christian persecution that just doesn't exist
in the United States. Phoebe, what

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are you saying? Bored with it
all? Absolutely bored to the back teeth

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of it all? What do you
think the blood people? I mean,

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really, you have nothing better to
do in your in your job, in

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your life. I mean, seriously, mate, get get a hobby.

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Stop worrying about things you have no
control overs, such as what other people

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do in their one square foot of
real estate. What are you bothering for?

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I understand that you believe in you
know, Christo Fashion Project twenty twenty

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five subjects We've talked about on this
before, but I mean, for crying

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out loud, this is prima facia
unconstitutional garbage. And for him not to

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know that is disingenuous at best,
and for him to know it and carry

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on doing it is hypocrisy and idiocy. And this is design not to try

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to do what he wants to do. Oh no, no, no,

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he's pushing the envelope and the Overton
window. That little bit further. When

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you have something as outrageous as this, the people that are doing it,

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generally speaking, know what they're doing. They're not there to try to push

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whatever they want to push completely.
They want to push the needle slightly further

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and keep pushing and pushing and pushing
and pushing that needle, moving that overton

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window gradually across, so that eventually
when you push back and go, what

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the are you doing? You absolute
maniacal, horsemanured piece of third As you

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do here we go for years.
It reminds me of a court case.

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Slightly off topic here, but there
was a court case which was about student

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loans and bankruptcy. I mean,
in my day job, I read this

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case because it was a fascinating case. And the judge turned around and said,

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since the nineteen seventy, judges have
done something called add their own judicial

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gloss to the way that it's done, and judge after judge after judge after

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judge after judge after judge had just
built upon this thing. So this judge

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went all the way back to the
beginning and went, well, that's actually

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what it says, and this guy
was wrong. What they want you to

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do is they want you to be
the judge at the end who's building off

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of the gloss and not realizing that
the very first person to do this was

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wrong. And that's how they moved
the Overton window, by people not realizing

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that they've got something in and gone
away with something that they shouldn't be And

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that's what's dangerous about that. And
when I say I'm bored, it's because

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I've seen this playbook one hundred and
five million times before. Every single time

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I hear of some anti twerks,
a lot religious idiot stripping someone from student

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councils or some other person saying we
must have the Ten Commandments in the Supreme

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Court grounds of Alabama. We've said
it all before, and it's just boring

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that we're still fighting these goons.
Oftentimes we're fighting the same good This guy,

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well, this guy in particular,
he's done this this game before we

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we we did an episode on him
in September about claiming the separation of church

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and state were a myth. So
he's been hammering away at this for quite

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a while. This is it kingdom? Is it Gold's Kingdom? Of course,

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because he's wanting his version of God's
Kingdom. Because I do believe that

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Waters is a true believer. Oh, I think he wants to bring about

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a theocracy. Now what that means
is going to vary according to who's saying

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it, because each theis wants their
version of theism. It's the pope,

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you know, and the well the
Pope right now is just trying to remain

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relevant. But this guy here,
his problem is I get he has a

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truth problem, and it really is, he has a problem telling the truth.

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You know. His effort to get
the Catholic charter school through the into

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the Supreme Court and involve himself with
that, it's something that on more than

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one occasion, the courts have told
him no, even up to the state

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Supreme court court level, told him, no, you really don't have anything

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to do with this. But he's
such a diehard, he's such a true

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believer that he's wanted to interject himself
into it anyway. Now, whether he's

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successful, I agree with you this. This is a matter of pushing that

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envelope. You push, you push, you get a little more. That's

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exactly what they did with Roe versus
Wide for a long time. They're doing

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the same thing here. They're trying
to get what they can get. The

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way you do that is to go
extreme, you know, the go big

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or go home type of mentality.
But for this guy, this is at

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least the fourth time we've covered him, and I don't think it's going away,

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because as long as we have this
group of people who believe that,

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you know, atheists are having a
major supply chain issue and they're you know,

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sourcing new babies in Oklahoma. You
know, the Jews are funneling money

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through George Soros, and you know, as long as people believe that,

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they're going to believe anything, and
they hear that behind pullpits time and time

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and time again, and these things
are reinforced that they need someone to take

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dominion. They even called them dominionists. And that's what's going on here.

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He wants a theocracy and to him, the Constitution is simply an inconvenience.

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He doesn't want it anymore. Now, Scott, what's your take on him?

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Really? You mentioned that he we've
talked about him before, and yes,

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sadly that's the case. This is
not a this is not a show

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that the subject matter was would be
desirable to get on. Right, that

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doesn't mean you're doing well in our
eyes. I guess, well, no,

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that's not always true. That's what
we do give some people props sometimes,

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but you should get a little hoard
from us, you know, motion

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right, like a five timers club
something like that. All right, No,

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but you were talking about how he
thought the separation of church and state

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was a myth. But if he
if that were true, then shouldn't he

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doesn't that kind of undermine his argument
against the state sponsored atheism thing? I

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mean doesn't if he's calling atheism or
religion and he's saying religion and church are

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not necessarily I don't know. But
on the state sponsored atheism thing. Okay,

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So we've heard this a thousand times
before from from you know, from

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people across you know, all nations
and whatnot. But there's a difference between

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an atheistic state and a secular state. There is a difference. And so

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I wanted to ask the panel what
their thoughts on So I want to know

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the difference between a secular government and
a state sponsored atheism, both philosophically and

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or in practic this and does it
matter? Is the difference important? Eli?

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What are you what are your thoughts
on that? Yeah? Well,

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I mean in practice the difference is
really simple, is really easy to distinguish.

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State sponsored atheism is churches are not
allowed to exist. You can't have

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a church, you can't worship a
god, don't talk about a god.

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That's state sponsored athism. Secular government
is we're not touching that. Do what

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you want. We're going to leave
our hands out of it. And philosophically,

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I think that's the best practice because
you know, we all have our

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individual beliefs. Like you know,
I believe that religion potentiates harm that is

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not otherwise, you know, potentiated
without providing any benefit. But not all

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people believe that, so they have
the right to you know, believe what

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they believe, and that government shouldn't
be you know what we the separation of

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church and state is that the government
cannot prevent anybody from believing what they want

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to believe. And in practice,
state sponsored atheism would be the exact opposite

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of that. That would be the
violation of that, you know, First

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Amendment. And it's it's so like
frustrating to see people like Ryan Walter's where

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they're like no, no, no, like not allowing my religion inols or

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not allowing me to have my religion
as a state sponsored religion is a violation

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of my freedom because that's what I
want. But they don't see it the

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other way. It's just it's so
strange to me, and it's kind of

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infuriating the old persecution company. Yeah, exactly, the victim mentality, right,

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right, Phoebe. What are your
thoughts on that? Two countries come

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to mind. One is Turkey,
as founded by Ata Turk is a secular

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nation. The Constitution of Turkey is
a secular constitution. The current president of

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Turkey maybe doing everything in his power
to undo what Ata Turk did, but

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Turkey constitutionally is a secular society.
France is a secular country as far as

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it goes. So those two countries
come to mind. Problemly is state sponsored

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atheism is usually associated with the following
kinds of countries, the USSR, the

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People's Republic of China, and the
Democratic People's Republic of Korea. And when

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you balance those to out the French
Fifth Republic and the out a Turk founded

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state of Turkey versus the USSR,
the People's Relic of China, and the

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Democraticlic of Career, there really isn't
that much that they've got in common.

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I mean in France, public education
does not allow religion. That's not state

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atheism, that's secularism. Right.
You can hold whatever view you want,

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doesn't matter, you just can't take
it into the class. In North Korea,

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how dare you go to church,
have a Bible and believe in a

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god? The only leader is the
Kim family. So are you saying that

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the difference so that the evidence seems
to support the idea that a secular government

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would be the better choice. A
secular government is, in my opinion,

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here the freest type of government,
being British and coming from an Anglican country

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where the law state that you must
have Anglican instruction five times a week in

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school every morning, versus in France
where you just get on with lessons.

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I'll tell you a French way any
day of the week, thank you very

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much. I'm with you there.
But it was growing up in Britain it

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was Anglican instruction five every morning or
half an hour you would have the local

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reverend would come round and and that's
required unless you're a Roman Catholic school or

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a specific different religious school. The
school it was Anglican instruction five days a

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week were you a believer back then
or where you are as an unbeliever.

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I'm Jewish, so it was a
very weird thing getting Anglican instruction and going

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back to a Jewish home. Huh, Infidel, what's your thoughts on that?

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I have to say that when it
comes down to an atheist atheistic government,

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I'm not even sure how you base
something around the lack of some to

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base of government around the lack of
believing in something just seems you know.

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I hate to use the overused phrase, but it's we're all going to start

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a club of not collecting stamp.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

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It doesn't add up. Now.
Secular I agree, and I think

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that a secular government may have an
advantage and a right to step in more

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than And that's where my concern becomes
with the idea of okay, we're just

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going to stay out of religion.
Because we see that desire to not get

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involved. We see children who end
up dead because their parents pray for them

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rather than bring him to the hospital
and to be treated of something relatively simple,

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even like diabetes. So when it
comes down to that separation, obviously

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it's not absolute and whatever that is
that really is something that a secular society

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does have a responsibility to take a
look at. Now, how do we

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do that is always going to be
the problem, but it really does boil

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down to a secular society is a
way to go. And I don't even

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know what an atheist society would look
like, so I would just have to

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guess and make it up, which
could be fun. But I think that's

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another story. Okay, Well,
I think at the very least we all

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agree that the idea that there is
state sponsored atheism being promoted in Oklahoma as

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well bullshit. I don't mean to
sound rudier, but it's fucking Oklahoma.

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It's not going to be the bastion
of atheism anytime soon. I'm sorry,

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but it's just not. US census
data from twenty twenty backs me up here.

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I mean, for crying out loud, there are a large and high

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proportion of religious people in the state
of Oklahoma and that ain't changing anytime soon.

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Well, that's as good as place
as any I think to start for

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this segment. Phoebe and