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The the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

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the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

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the the bah Yo. Welcome everybody
to your favorite open debate in sanity,

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Feral Wye Mom Slam Poetry Virginia Slam
podcast where we open it up to the

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haters, to the tomatoes, to
the wanna b debaters to come on and

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offer their best challenge, their best
argument, their best critique. As you

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know, it always ends up being
a very entertaining event. That's just an

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added bonus from me in the midst
of the lost art of debate that we

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try to preserve, we try to
try to promote, try to maintain,

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keep afloat. We got some people
popping in, got a few people requesting

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to speak already. As you know, the topic is not conspiracies, Middle

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East politics, it's not poetry,
it's not your bars. You're not gonna

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beat me in a rap battle,
so just give up. But you are

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allowed to call in and talk about
your best arguments about the existence or the

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non existence of God, the transcendental
argument. What the logos is, the

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logos logi distinction, the essence iner
distinction, Roman Catholicism, a papacy,

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the history of the church, the
history of religion, metaphysics, all of

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those are on the table. All
of those are fair game. As they

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say, if you call in and
you talk about other topics or you make

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non arguments, I will make jokes. You will get your feelings hurt,

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you will cry, you will be
butt hurt, you will make exposed videos

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about me. So just I'm just
prophesying and telling you what's going to happen

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if you disobey the rules and only
be to your own demise, to your

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own dutchment. But you may do
that if you so choose. No one

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can stop the freedom train known as
free will anyway, as you know the

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way it works. You request to
speak via Twitter spaces, I then let

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you on. Your job is to
then make an argument, make a challenge,

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make a proposition, a claim,
an assertion. Then you back it

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up with theces, not feces.
A lot of y'all spit theces out of

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your mouth, thess that demonstrate or
prove the initial claim or argument. It's

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that simple, although hardly anybody in
today's society seems able to actually do that.

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So I want to give preference today
to people that disagree. If you

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have a Q and a question,
that's fine. Keep that maybe towards the

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end of the show. So I
already see people chiming in who agree and

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probably have questions, which is fine, but preference to those who disagree.

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So maybe you are an atheist,
Maybe you are an agnostic. Maybe you

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are a Zoroastrian, a zor right
Astrian. Maybe you are a I don't

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know what else, what's the other
options? A Muslimist. Maybe you are

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a a Discordian. Maybe you are
a ahnd dude, a him though you

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was a he? Who a she? Do? Now you're a ham though.

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Maybe you're a papist, a Roman
Catholic and you're going to prove the

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papacy to us. Maybe I don't
know what's what's all the world religions?

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Can you can we list them all? Do you do? Y'all remember them?

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There's a Jim Jonesian. Maybe you're
a Jim Jones follower. You're like

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the last two or three Jim Jonesians, and you got you got issues because

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you think you're the keeper of the
truth. Flat Maybe the maybe the Jim

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Jones had it all right, and
we just misunderstood. He just misunderstood when

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he when he cooliated out in people, you just misunderstood. Maybe you're an

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orthodox redditor. We got some people
in the YouTube chat talking smack. Maybe

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you're a neo Gagan excuse me,
a Pagan. Maybe you're a asked asked

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a fire you can come on.
Maybe you're a thirty third degree masonics person.

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He wanted them masonics anyway. Maybe
you're an ancient Carthaginian and you believe

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in human sacrifice. Maybe you're an
as tech you. Maybe you're a thug

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ee remember the Thugies, some of
that Temple of Doom action on Numbshiva numb

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cheva, about to break my heart
by ripping it out. If you're steal

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a Thuggie out there calling on my
thugies not thugs. We got a lot

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of thug healers on TikTok that Tristan
and I have been calling out. I

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mean, we did a ball or
ass stream yesterday about the history of rap

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music, aka the history of my
music, my background. Y'all know,

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I'm the first greatest rapper in the
world. Tristan Haggard is the second ratest

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rapper in the world. Anyway,
We're gonna open it up back to the

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topic, because you know, I'll
just sit here talking a bunch of now

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damn nonsense about Thuggies all day long. Khima Khalimar shocked. That's the traditional

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thuggee right liturgy. So maybe some
of y'all were at the traditional Thuggie write

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liturgy today. If so, let
me know your best argument for why we

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need to be Thuggies. Alexander calls
in. Now, we had a gnostic

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man. He said, I'm on
it. He said, I'm there,

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dude. Uh, I don't know
where are you at, dude, let

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me see if he's He's like,
I'm ready to debate you. He says,

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I figured out five thou and years
of religious history. And he says,

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I'm ready. Okay, dude,
as you know, we give you

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the floor, dog, so here
you go. I would start making jokes,

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but you know, people can't handle
jokes to that. That's the other

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thing people think, Oh when I
come on there, he's mean. We've

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always treated this in a very lighthearted
manner, in a very humoristic way.

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You know, we joke around.
It's not a big deal. Hey,

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a lot of people can't handle it. I made a serial killer joke.

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One dude's it got mad said I
was calling him a serial killer. It's

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just, man, people don't understand
jokes. They don't understand humor. That

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It's just it's getting crazy. So
anyway, I don't know where the Gnostic

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Man is. Alexander's on the scene
on mute. We've got a T shirt

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made this I audible. Yes,
sir, damn Professor Darer, thank you

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for letting me speak. I really
appreciate you for that. I'm not I'm

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not a professor, but that's fine. Oh okay, anyways, I guess

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i'll start it off. I'll just
ask you a question and then and then

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I guess if you can justify it, then you can prove God, if

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God's real, I guess my question
to you would be is why why does

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he allow so many bad things and
tragedies to happen? Right? So,

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have you ever looked at responses to
the problem of evil? Like who?

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Meaning like the objection that you're giving
is the problem of evil objection? So

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I'm just wondering because it's kind of
been basically because I'm because I'm saying that

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I'm I'm like, I'm I was, I'm thinking, in the concept or

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the extraction that there is evil,
I'm conceding that there's good, and that

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there must and that must come from
like the divine, like God. Well,

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I'm just asking if you've ever looked
at any of the responses. And

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there's a lot of different ways people
approach the problem of evil objection, but

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one objection that I tend to use
is just simply that if God doesn't exist,

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then we're going to need a basis
for the standard by which we judge

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good and evil. So there are
correct implications for when we deny the real

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metaphysical existence of the good. One
of those implications would be that we no

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longer have a standard by which to
judge either good or evil, and that

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standard came from God in the Christian
worldview. Yeah, well then I guess

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my next question outside of the Christian
world no worldview, Yeah, yeah,

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that worldview. Yeah, I mean, I apologize my first time on the

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show, so I'm a bit jutery. So outside of that view, my

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question is this is that then if
that's not the case, then there there

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can be no good and evil,
and then one act doesn't mean anything.

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So then how do we define anything. That's then then I'm then I'm just

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like a little bit confused. How
do how do how does anyone make sense

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from right and wrong? Done?
No, it's not saying that there is

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no it's a hypothetical. You understand
what that is, right, yes,

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right, So it's it's just saying
that the comparison is between two paradigms.

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One paradigm has an account for good
and evil as metaphysical things, or in

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the case of evil, not a
thing but a privation or a move of

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the will against the good. The
other worldview, which would be like the

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atheist materialist paradigm, typically doesn't have
any account for and is really premised on

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denying metaphysics. So the problem is
that when you deny metaphysics as a whole,

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and that would be things like good, bad, the will, you

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know, meaning even ethics ultimately would
be part of metaphysics because we're talking about

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value judgments, then there's not a
basis to make an argument or even a

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sentence at all. So before I
will hear out the argument. But the

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transcendental argument is an argument prior to
predication, prior to making claims at all.

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So you're gonna have to give an
account for how you have values at

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all, because to say that the
Christian worldview is a violation of the paradigm

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of good and evil, right,
or that it's a violation of some ethical

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norm that God violates by permitting free
creatures to committeabal actions. We need a

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basis for the standard by what you're
saying it's evil or what is evil?

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What's good and evil? If there's
not a god? Basically, yeah,

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And that's where it kind of gets
gray because like one thing I was just

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thinking of and then August, I'll
mute, I is that basically when like

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for example, and this is kind
of like a side thought, but a

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lot of times I notice or I
observe, like a lot of atheists,

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for example, they say, oh, I don't believe in God or this

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or whatever. The you know,
the reasoning is a lot of times I

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notice they have like a lot of
like heart trauma or something that's like not

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right in their mind. And then
it's like they hate something and I don't

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even know if they know what they
know what they hate, right, But

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then they just that that internal like
war, it's us out. Like a

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lot of times I see it like
maybe like kids, or like say,

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yeah, kids or even young adults
like teens out on their parents because maybe

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maybe their parent was you know,
they hold those beliefs and it's like,

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oh, well, you know,
it's like this whole confusing like a war

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with God, and then that then
now they're at war with everyone who doesn't

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think just like them. Yeah.
I think that a lot of times that's

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the personal psychological motivation for atheism.
Of course, they'll say, well,

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that's that doesn't really disprove my position, and that's true. There's no there's

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no psychological report that proves or disproves
any position. So positions stand on their

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own objectively, whether they're true or
false based on the actual argumentation. But

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yeah, I think you're right about
that being a common psychological trait. But

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what we're getting at here is just
basically that in order to make the argument

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about the problem of evil, to
argue at all requires the requires giving an

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account for something more fundamental. And
that's what the transcendental argument is doing.

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Is it's saying that the things that
you're using to argue or make sentences at

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all can only work in a worldview
or a paradigm where God exists, there's

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metaphysics, there's an external world,
there's objective standards, there's universals, there's

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laws of logic. All those things
have to be the case for you to

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even make a sentence. So that's
what I'm saying is that the problem of

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evil argument doesn't work because it's not
addressing the transcendental argument and how the transcendental

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argument points out that if there is
no God or good, then there is

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no basis for good or evil.
Does that make sense or not? Really?

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Yeah, Like, yeah, I
just feel bad those people. I

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don't know how. It's like they're
just gripping for straws. There's one many

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years ago. You probably didn't see
this, but Michael Savage was on the

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air with Alex Jones. Yeah I've
seen those interviews, Okay, yeah,

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and he just came out like he
just got on side swacked by Ben because

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he took over his show or whatever, and it was some like dirty dealing

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going on and they're talking about it. But also he had a new book

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come out. I forget the name
of the book, but the book was

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basically kind of him searching for God, and a lot of times it was

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just kind of about I'm trying to
remember, but it's like the whole point

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of his many experiences in a life
where he's just searching and searching and searching,

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and it's like a lot of times, you know, I haven't really

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heard any real actual proof or evidence
for God. But it's like I'm in

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I'm stuck in that same paradox of
like, isn't in the clouds? Isn't

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I have this child? Is it
in this art? Is? You know?

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But I'm I'm in this big universe. But just the fact that I'm

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seeking for this but you know,
like I don't hear anything back, and

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I don't know if maybe this is
kind of like Christian paradox or I don't

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know how to preface it, but
it's just like my last little like common

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honor me. Okay, yeah,
those are good, good questions. I

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mean, I guess my answer to
that about the way God speaks is through

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first of all divine revelations, So
that would be, you know, what's

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contained in the Orthodox Bible and the
teaching of the church. It would be

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eventually more and more of a direct
interaction and sense of God's presence. But

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that's something that comes after I think, you know, a time of purification,

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repentance, and so forth, and
that's what we do as part of

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our life in the church. So
I'm not trying to avoid the question.

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I'm just pointing out that the problem
of evil issue is rather a consequence of

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the reality of free will and the
reality of secondary causes that creatures can engage

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in. So why God chose to
permit the world to be that way?

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There's not any obligation on God's part
to reveal to all of his finite creatures

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all of the infinite variations of created
causes as to why it's this way.

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And if you read the Book of
Job, the answer is more so,

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we can't really in this life comprehend
all of the different created causal chains and

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how things work together for the good, as Paul says in Romans eight.

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So there is an element of mystery
there with you know, how does divine

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sovereignty and providence and free will all
work together? And one thing I would

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say is that this is an expectation
that no worldview can actually answer. And

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Christianity is not a worldview that gives
you every answer to every problem. It's

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a worldview that gives you an account
of knowledge ethics and metaphysics as possibilities to

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even use or to engage in.
That doesn't mean that every aspect or element

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of the physical world or science or
knowledge or metaphysics is immediately knowable or demonstrable.

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So the transcendental argument is addressing the
preconditions to knowledge, to making sentences,

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to making meaning at all. And
that's why I think it's the more.

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I mean, it's really the best
philosophical argument for God's existence. Right,

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It's not the only reason that people
come to believe in God. There's

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many reasons why we to believe what
we believe, but it's in terms of

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the domain of logic and philosophy I
think it's it's the best argument. But

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anyway, thank you guys for those
super chats, and those are good questions.

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Now the guy who wanted to come
and chat, Jeremy is in the

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chat. So Jeremy, if you
want to you can. I'll invite you

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to speak, and you know,
you can have the floor and make whatever

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arguments you'd like about your specific your
specific religious position. So did you want

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to come on, Jeremy, You
got to have your mike turned on or

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whatever. They got to leave.
No, there you are. Okay,

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I'm going to give you the ability
to speak, so you just got to

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unmute yourself and then you can make
whatever arguments you want. Hey, jam

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thanks for having me. Sure have
a quick question, and the question is

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why do we call him God?
I would say, in our position,

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ultimately because of the characteristics of what
he's revealed about himself. So you know,

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God for us would mean the person
of the Father and the attributes that

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go along with him being omniscient,
being, omni benevolent, being, you

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know, omnipresent, omnipotent, et
cetera. Okay, So what I'm getting

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at is his name in the Old
Testament is spelled right, So it's really

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this is really more of an etymology
question. In the English Bibles and throughout

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the world, why do we use
the name God instead of whatever however you

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pronounce his name. That's where I'm
going with this. Well, I think

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the Greek term theos is usually what
is used, and it's just the word

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in the Greek that stands for Yahweh
or the Lord or whatever. Okay,

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so you're getting close. Theos is
the Greek word, but it's also used

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of the career of angels of demons
and sometimes of men. Right the Hebrew.

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The Hebrew equivalent is elokeein and is
also used directly of the creator of

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angels, of demons, and it's
also use of men. That's correct,

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So can I respond to them?
Yeah, so I'm aware of that,

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And that's that's because the term God
is a generic term. It's not a

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proper noun unless it picks out a
specific person. And this is an argument

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that we've made many many times to
Muslims, for example. So I'm familiar

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with what you're saying, but capital
t theos for us is picking out the

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person of the Father. But you're
absolutely correct that elohem or God's in the

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sense of when Jesus says I've said
to your Gods, that could refer to

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an angel, a demon, or
a human. We agree, all right,

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sweet, So with that being said, what we're translating is God is

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either Theos or Elokeein. But you'd
have is a different word. So whenever

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we in the in the Tanakh or
in the Old Testament, when we translate

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jode bave yeloheme, we translate that
as Lord God. So we're not even

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using the term God for the Creator's
name, we're using a title lord.

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Well, I mean, in our
view, God is again a term that

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picks out either a divine person,
the divine nature, or the divine energies

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or operations in the Old and we're
speaking here of God, the Triad,

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the Trinity. So I believe in
the Trinity as an Orthodox Christian. And

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in our view, Jesus has called
the face of Yahweh the Angel of Yahweh.

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Then he's given the name of Yahweh
throughout the Old Testament. So it

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sounds like a what we call a
word concept fallacy, where the idea is

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that a word has a single reference. But in the case of theos or

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Lord, it could refer to a
created Lord, or it could refer to

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the uncreated Lord or God. Okay, so I'm with you on all that.

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So and and by the way,
you know, Jesus died rose again

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three days later in the right hand, and his father's name is you know,

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Jode. So I'm with you on
all that. You don't think that

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Jesus is Yeahweh. Well, he's
divine, but he is not the Father.

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No, I think they're different aspects. Father know that Jesus doesn't know.

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Well, are there degrees of divinity. Yes, well, in the

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sense of the divine nature. There
can't be degrees of it. Right,

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So the divine nature, for example, is simple, it's uncomposite, it's

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outside of time, it's impossible.
Uh, it's not acted upon. These

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are all classic ideas of what divine
nature or the uncreated nature of God signifies.

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So there couldn't be if Jesus is
fully divine, there couldn't be degrees

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of of that, a quarter,
a half of the divine essence or something

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like that. Right, But angel
and demons are divine beings, Yes,

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divine in a different sense, So
there are different You just contradict yourself,

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right, No, it's not the
sense in the first sense. Okay,

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So not in the sense of God's
divinity. So when we call an angel

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elohem or when they're called gods,
it's picking out a created thing. We're

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talking about uncreated nature. So you
understand it's a word concept fallacy. It

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might be, except every demon in
the Bible that's listed, and I've got

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00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:36,480
every one of them up here.
I can go through the whole list for

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00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:41,000
you, both in Greek and and
Hebrew. They are all translated exactly as

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they are transliterated, meaning they're all
translated in our English Bibles exactly as they

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sound in their original languages. Would
you agree with that? Translated as they

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sound? What do you mean?
So I'm going to give you a few

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00:27:53,079 --> 00:27:57,839
for instances as an example. So
bail is sounds like bail and the Hebrew

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00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:06,000
bail paris like baille parith. Hold
on, Yeah, and we believe those

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are fallen angels. Yes, Mary, doc is Meredoc, nebo is Nebo,

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and drimalk and drimalk, so on
and so forth. Right now,

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00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,079
there are two demons in Isaiah sixty
five eleven that are not translated. Their

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00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,079
names are completely untranslated. Have you
ever looked up that verse? Yeah?

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I read Isaiah many, many times. All Right, in Isaiah's sixty five

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00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,359
eleven, there's two demons in there. They're either they are translated in the

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00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,559
King James or the Geneva Bibles as
troop and number, but in every translation

290
00:28:36,319 --> 00:28:41,640
post nineteen seventy they're translated as fortune
and destiny with capital F and a capital

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00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,880
D. And the way that I
found this was I was researching the origins

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of hard determinism in Christianity, and
so I chased that from Lorraine Baudner in

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nineteen thirty six with his Tulip thesis, back to John Calvin, who got

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all of his ideas from and Martin
Luther. They got their ideas from Augustine

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00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,519
to Hippo. Augustine Hip got all
his ideas. And I used to be

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00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:04,960
a Calvinist. I've studied at Calvinist
seminary. I'm more that's good. So

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00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:10,960
in Isaiah sixty five eleven, you
have two demons that are translated as fortune

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and destiny. Do you happen to
know what their names are? Well?

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00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,880
How is this going to prove your
point? Because I mean, I agree

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00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,160
that they're demons. If these are
demons in the text when I look at

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00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,839
Isaiah sixty five eleven, I mean
you're saying that it's the quote modern translations,

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00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,880
But okay, I mean demons are
created. So how is this How

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00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,880
does this preview point? Because their
names are God and Many, they're spelled

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00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:45,880
gd Gimmel, Dalak and him and
whym none yeode Okay, it looks like

305
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:52,079
and their names are tamingly pronounced God
and money. You mean you think that

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00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:57,720
the English terminology of the meaning in
English of a Hebrew word is the same.

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00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,599
No, what I'm telling you is
in Hebrew. That is how you

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00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,319
pronounce that word gd God. This
is a word concept fatasy. So you

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00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:15,440
think that the modern English term God
is referencing that that that's predicting that we

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00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,960
worship quote God, but it's a
demon. Is that what you think?

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00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:22,599
So that comes back to my first
question is what is the etymology of English

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00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:26,720
word God? It just means theos. It just refers to It picks out

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theos when we're talking about God,
the Father, but it also refers to

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00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:33,440
other things. Yes, that's what
that's that's how we define it. But

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00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:40,440
I'm talking about etymology. Where to
come from? That's etymology. Now,

316
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,839
etymology is it came from this word
and this language and this verdacular, and

317
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,839
that's how we all say it.
Okay, isn't that way you're asking?

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00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:52,880
Well, so can you just say
where? Can you just say what your

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00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,319
position is? You're asking all these
questions and just what's the position that you're

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00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,319
arguing? For sure? So the
hard determinism of christian and which is Calvinism,

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00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,240
comes from those two demons, God
and manny, the demons of fortune

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00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:08,440
and the demons of Destiny. One's
a male and one's a female, and

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00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,279
they just change their names every now
and then. I e. God and

324
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,160
married. And what happened was the
demon God Mary? Yeah, you just

325
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,039
changed You've changed many a little bit, and you get married. So what

326
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:23,920
happened with this is this is looney
tunes. Man, I'm not trying me

327
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,720
mean to you, but all right, changing it, changing one letter,

328
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,480
yeah, it makes all the difference, right, right, So how do

329
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:38,839
you jump from that to Mary?
Because the demons God and Manny are it's

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00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:44,720
the same charub in different civilizations.
It's amen Ra in Egypt and Horus,

331
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:51,160
it's God and Manny and Babylon it's
Jupiter and Pluto. And and you think

332
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,880
that's the verb. You think that's
the virgin Mary. Well, I'm saying

333
00:31:53,880 --> 00:32:00,599
that's the cherub that's presenting himself as
Mary for the Catholics. How would you

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00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:02,400
ever come up with? Yeah?
How would you? It's just this is

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00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,960
how would you come to that?
Because I wrote a ninety three thousand word

336
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,559
book on it, and I researched
it that that doesn't explain how you came

337
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:17,279
to the conclusion. That just tells
me what you did. Well, what

338
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,960
rephrase your question, it's a non
sequitor. So first of all, changing

339
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:29,400
one letter in many words gives very
different conclusions and reference to as to who

340
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,160
the word is picking out. So
the fact that you're saying that, well

341
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,839
I just changed one letter, it's
really close to Mary. I mean,

342
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,039
that's this is like you don't see
why that would be a problem. Well,

343
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,359
if you look up mem nun yode
in Hebrew, none is a letter

344
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,599
that's used to change a name and
to disguise the name. Okay, so

345
00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:52,640
are you familiar with like the way
let me give you an example of where

346
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,039
this would be a problem, like
the way that Freemason's talk about Solomon.

347
00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:00,319
Have you heard this argument where they
say, well, look at the name

348
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,160
Solomon, it's soul, it's ome, and it's on. Soul is the

349
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,440
Latin for the sun and the sun
god. Om is the uh you know

350
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:16,119
hint, the Buddhist Ohm right chant
that they do on is the Egyptian deity

351
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:22,720
On. Now, the word Solomon
is a English transliteration of Shalom, has

352
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,759
nothing to do with soul, om
and on. Okay, So there's there's

353
00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:35,000
a tendency and a lot of esoteric
minded people or Masonic minded people various hermeticis

354
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:37,240
or whoever. I'm not accusing you
of that. I don't fully know your

355
00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:40,599
position, but I'm just stating that
it's all kind of based on If you're

356
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,519
familiar with Jordan Maxwell, for example, the famous conspiracy dude, right,

357
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:51,000
he would always kind of come up
with these creative switching of reference to show

358
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:55,759
that because the in one context the
word means this, in another context the

359
00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:00,880
word means something very very different,
the word then is meaning both things or

360
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:07,480
can be identified with one reference.
So do you do you know what I

361
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:09,440
when I'm saying that it's a version
of word concept Ballacy, do you know

362
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,039
what I mean by that? I
agree with you one hundred percent with the

363
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:16,000
spot on, But how would you
agree with me if that's what I'm saying.

364
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:21,119
Is the move here that you're making
that's a mistake because you can find

365
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,360
God in the text, in the
Hebrew text, and it was covered up.

366
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:28,440
If you'll indulge me just for one
more quick point before you can be

367
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,480
I'm listening, all right, So
let us let's assume that God and Manny

368
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:42,119
are the demons of the Babylonian demons
of luck or fortune and destiny or fate

369
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:45,079
and I stumbled upon them. You
asked how I found this. Let me

370
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,800
answer that first, because you did
ask that question. The way that I

371
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:54,599
found this was when I was researching
the elect I wanted every time the word

372
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,920
the elect choose or chosen was used
in the Bible, and I was gonna

373
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,400
put it in an Excel spray cheat
so that I could show you that it

374
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,239
was just a mundane word where somebody
was choosing something. There's two hundred and

375
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,679
twenty four instances of that. And
the way that I found Isaiah sixty five

376
00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:13,599
eleven is because the Creator chose Israel
for destruction, because it's something they did.

377
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:15,719
That's how I found Isaiah sixty five
eleven. It was just by doing

378
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:22,159
my homework. So let's assume that
God and money are the demons of luck

379
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:28,760
and fate in Luke. Whenever Jesus
is telling them that you cannot serve both

380
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,800
God and money, assume my proposition
is true. The reason that he's telling

381
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,920
him that you can't serve them both
is because you either live your life as

382
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,199
if everything is chance or luck,
or you live your life as if everything

383
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:49,960
is fate or destiny. That's why
you can't serve those two masters. I

384
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,760
mean again, there's nothing to do
with the Virgin Mary. Where do you

385
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,079
this is? I can't. I
just don't understand. How do you conclude

386
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:02,639
that that's Mary Mary? A tertiary
item anyway? Yeah, but it demonstrates

387
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,320
the wildness of this. You don't
see why this would be a problem.

388
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:15,400
It is. It is absolutely wild. I agree. Okay, So what

389
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,840
is the true religion? Like,
what is it to you? The Way?

390
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,280
And that is what? Well,
so, and here's my opinion that

391
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,880
you're not going to hear anywhere else. I think the Way, which was

392
00:36:29,119 --> 00:36:34,280
home groups meeting in their homes,
your pastor, your evangelist, your apostle.

393
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:37,719
Those were all functions that people did. They were not titles that were

394
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:44,599
given to them by professionally credentialed organizations. The Gnostics eventually infiltrated the Way and

395
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,000
eventually turned it via Augustine of Hippo
and Jerome and others, and eventually turned

396
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:53,239
it into what we call the Roman
Catholic Church. And then they used half

397
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,960
of the Gnostics beliefs to do that. In the fifteen hundreds, the Protestants

398
00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:01,239
used the other half of the Gnostic
beliefs to consolidate power away from the pope.

399
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,199
And what you call church right now
is the Great Harlet of Babylon,

400
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:09,280
because all churches worship God, and
his proper name is the Babylonia demon of

401
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:17,639
fortune. Again, your entire thesis
is built on a word concept fallacy.

402
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,199
Are you from a Protestant background,
both Catholic and Protestant? Right, So

403
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:31,159
the word God can pick out different
things, right, And your argument rests

404
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:36,360
on the word God having the single
reference of this demon. And the way

405
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,840
that you got to that was the
creative interpretation of Isaiah sixty five? Is

406
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,000
it creative? You just said you
had to change a letter to get married.

407
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:51,400
No, that is what you said
to get married with proposition that did

408
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,159
you not say that to change a
letter you get married because it's close?

409
00:37:54,159 --> 00:38:00,320
Yes? Okay, So again,
why do you think that that is baudid

410
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:07,320
or a coherent move to do?
From what standpoint? It's not talking about

411
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,840
Mary and you admitted it by saying
that I have to change a letter to

412
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,360
make it be close to Mary.
Yes, and that's the middle letter of

413
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:23,920
Manny's name him And why Fanny has
nothing to do with Mary? Where do

414
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:30,519
you conclude that that's Mary? Because
the demons can change their names. That's

415
00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:35,079
what he does. Yeah, that
doesn't improve that the reference is Mary.

416
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,199
You're just assuming the position and saying, yeah, but it is because it's

417
00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,079
a demon changing his name. How
do you know that it's a demon that

418
00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:43,679
change that? You don't think?
I mean, do you know what Ephesis

419
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:51,599
taught for example? On what on
the on Mary? Kill me? Well,

420
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,440
are you familiar with church history at
all? You talked about Augustine.

421
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,400
You're correct about his background a little
bit, yes, okay, so,

422
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,199
but well, wait a minute.
Wouldn't want to know about what the first

423
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,920
four centuries of Christianity taught. If
you're going to put this position forward,

424
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,039
sure, go for it. Now
I'm asking you what do you think they

425
00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:12,880
taught in those first four centuries up
to Ephesus about whom? About Christ and

426
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,880
Mary? I don't know off the
top my head. Okay, so you

427
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,440
don't know about this topic. I
thought you wrote a giant ninety thousand word

428
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,760
book or something ninety three thousand.
Yes, okay, So but you don't

429
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,199
know about the topic. Well,
the book doesn't cover the encompassing of everything

430
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,599
in Christianity. Yeah, but Mary
is very important at Ephesus and she's given

431
00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:39,480
a certain name at Ephesus, and
so this would be very important to your

432
00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:43,360
thesis if you think that she's a
god, a goddess, or a demon.

433
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,239
I didn't say that Mary was a
god or a demon. Marie.

434
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:52,519
Our name was Maria. Okay,
yeah, all right, we're gonna move

435
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:58,920
on. I appreciate your arguments.
Interesting thesis, but it's a word concept

436
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,239
fallacy. It's open for him.
If you want to present your arguments,

437
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:10,719
you can. I will hear them
out Anikatsuki. We're giving preference to people

438
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:19,280
who disagree today. Hey man,
what's going on? Yo? How's it

439
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,320
going? I already sent a couple
of super chats in, but I was

440
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,400
just going to ask my questions this
way. If that was okay? I

441
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,079
did. I didn't know that I
could do this, all right. So

442
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,079
I'm newly orthodox, my wife and
I and we've been taking our six months

443
00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:40,880
old and I was wondering, what
do you think would be the best argument

444
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:51,800
towards my Protestant friends and family who
equate icons with the with what it says

445
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,280
in the Second Commandment about not making
images of what's in heaven and on earth

446
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,239
and in the sea below and all
that Yeah, I have an essay on

447
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:06,039
that. That's a very simply simple
sort of response on I just got to

448
00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:10,519
my website and type in icons and
you'll get it. Okay. My second

449
00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:16,719
question, if I may, I've
got The Orthodoxy and the Religion of the

450
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:22,719
Future by Seraph from Rose. I've
got against Heresies, I've got on Holy

451
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:29,119
Images, and I've got the Orthodox
Generation of Mary the Mother of God by

452
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,360
Saint John Maximovich. Yeah. Are
there any other starter books that you recommend

453
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,960
for Orthodox theology in general? Yeah, Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by

454
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,599
Lasky is a good place to start. Orthodox Church by Myandorf is a good

455
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:51,800
place to start. Byzantine Theology by
Myandorf after you've read those, Okay.

456
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,000
Now, the article that I wrote
is called Biblical Defense of Icons. It's

457
00:41:55,039 --> 00:42:00,119
just a basic going through the text
of the Bible, and I've got that

458
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:07,480
linked in the chat Okay, and
you can also just find it on my

459
00:42:07,559 --> 00:42:12,119
website. Awesome, I appreciate it. Jack Hey. Trying to add one

460
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:17,840
thing real quick, So when we're
reading Exodus in the command to you know,

461
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,880
not have any graven images of anything
on earth or in heavens obviously,

462
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:30,400
it's in the it's in the context
of such that you would worship it as

463
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,880
if it were gone, because think
about how silly it would be. It

464
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,559
would mean if it says no graven
image, which is a typically means a

465
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:46,360
three dimensional image, it would mean
that we couldn't have any statute, I

466
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:52,599
mean outside of religious contexts, that
you couldn't have any statues or any three

467
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:57,800
dimensional art or anything like this,
which you'll see that even like I think

468
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,800
the Amish even kind of take it
that way or something like that. So

469
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,119
you have to say, well,
the verse, the verses can't actually mean

470
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:10,159
that, So what are they saying. They're saying within the context of worship

471
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,719
such that you would worship it as
if it were God. And I think

472
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,920
this is a typical move that Protestants
struggle with. First the word concept fallacy,

473
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,199
and number two that there's a general, overall kind of context of what's

474
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,639
going on. So it a Protestant
might often think, well, you just

475
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,199
read the verse, and the verse
says what it means, and means what

476
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,119
it says and says what I mean, and we see that's not the case.

477
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:44,360
Yeah, that's usually where my argument
goes whenever I speak to my protest

478
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,320
the friends and family is, well, let's get down to what what what

479
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:52,719
an idol was, and let's get
down to what the word graven means.

480
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:59,559
And usually usually that's that's the limit
that their brain can handle, and they

481
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:01,880
just should down and just refuse to
hear any of them. Yeah, because

482
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,639
you could ask, well, why
would that be wrong? Why would God

483
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:12,039
say not to make graven images?
They won't give an answer. Oh,

484
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:15,800
because God said so. Yeah,
so they've got some type of weird kind

485
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:23,800
of divine command theory that God's dictates
are arbitrary and whatever he says, that's

486
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,559
just what it says. You've got
to do what which is a terrible god

487
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:32,760
to follow? Right? All right, appreciate that question, Matt. I'm

488
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,199
guessing that you're the guy that said
the super chats. Appreciate that. I'll

489
00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:42,519
read those super chats here in a
second. Let's see Thomas Thomas Guzman.

490
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:52,719
We're looking for giving precedents to people
who disagree. Today, got an unmute

491
00:44:52,719 --> 00:45:07,079
man, Go ahead, you're run
muted. You gotta turn your mic onto

492
00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:08,960
I don't know if you Sometimes you
have to go in your settings and turn

493
00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:15,519
on the mic. If you haven't
done this before. Are you there,

494
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:23,480
Thomas, We'll move on until you
get that. Sometimes you have to come

495
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,440
out, come back in. So
Thomas, if you come out, come

496
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:28,360
back in, I'll put you back
to the head of line. Hilarian,

497
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:37,719
what's up, dude, Yo yo
yo. No one can say I was

498
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,280
mean. I just said the position
made no sense, and it was based

499
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,760
on a word concept fallacy. And
of course what was happening at Ephesus is

500
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,280
the term day of Tokos is what
I was looking for. So people that

501
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:51,840
aren't aware of that, I'm not
gonna listen to them telling me about the

502
00:45:51,880 --> 00:46:05,480
secret history of Mary. Hilarian,
you got on mute or not moving on?

503
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:17,719
Moving? Own up? Move and
own up, David Reid on move

504
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,280
arm move, Hey Ja, what's
up? Hey? I was just I

505
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,159
just had a quick question on'm orthodox
by the way I called it. Before

506
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:37,199
I was listening to the iconic Vegan
debate with you, Tristan, and to

507
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,119
ask yourself, dude, at Vegan
gains, you know the train wreck,

508
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:49,559
and you at one point brought up
a point that he was saying something about

509
00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:54,079
something being abstract or it was not
tangible, so we couldn't investigate it.

510
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:59,199
Something along those lines. You don'
kind of ignore me empiricism, and you

511
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:06,559
said nothing was purely abstract, and
you said you could read Heidegger in to

512
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,159
basically realize what that means. And
I was wondering what you meant by that

513
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,840
that nothing's abstract, that is,
nothing's purely abstract. Yeah, Heideger makes

514
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:22,280
the point that so Hussarl wanted to
bracket reality and come up with these neutral

515
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:30,599
ways to read objects. And the
famously Husserl took his class outside and they

516
00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:34,400
studied a mailbox for an entire semester. And the reason they studied the mailbox

517
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:38,760
was because, for example, you
can't you can never a single person's vantage

518
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:44,920
point is always limited to their side
of the object. So this is called

519
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,280
in mariology the horizon of objects,
so you can never see the other side

520
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,679
of the object. And Hussarl basically
had them focused on doing this for like

521
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:59,559
a whole semester, and Hidger made
the joke that this wild attempt at trying

522
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:07,239
to find into this purely neutral starting
point to read objects is that landish mainly

523
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,800
because it operates as if we read
objects as pure abstractions and not through life,

524
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,880
being not through the entire history of
objects that we bring to the interpretive

525
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,519
experience. So I'm never going to
have a purely neutral interpretation of the mailbox,

526
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:27,000
because anytime I come to the mailbox, I'm bringing with me my whole

527
00:48:27,079 --> 00:48:30,280
history of all my life, all
my interpretive interpretation of objects, including all

528
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:37,920
my past history of interpreting and experiencing
mailboxes. So it's an unrealistic it's not

529
00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:43,079
the life being way that we interact
with objects, is what I was getting

530
00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:47,239
it. I got you, okay. It was a way for me to

531
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:55,119
combat and refute the idea that there's
such a thing as non theory ladd interpretations

532
00:48:55,119 --> 00:49:00,159
of reality. Got you, okay? And then can I ask them allow

533
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:06,559
question? Sure? So the this
is because some I don't know if it

534
00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:12,599
might be somewhat related. You were
talking in previously with another detractor about divine

535
00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:16,679
conceptualism, uh huh, and you
were saying that the Orthodox conception is different

536
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,039
from the Roman Catholics. Yeah,
they have a platonic move and we make

537
00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:28,440
them energies, not the divine essence. Okay, So universals are created things

538
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,440
in the Orthodox view. Maximus makes
this argument very clear multiple times in the

539
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:37,719
Ambiguity Roman Catholics don't typically make this
clear. So you might find a Roman

540
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:43,960
Caldic who reads Maximus and comes the
conclusion of that. But really this is

541
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,280
because, for example, Aquinas identifies
the divine ideas with the divine essence.

542
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,880
So that would make if you say
that universals are divine ideas and they're the

543
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,559
divine essence, then now universals are
the divine essence. So that's a Platonic

544
00:49:55,639 --> 00:50:00,559
view. Got you. Okay,
interesting, I look at that. And

545
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:05,800
so it was there a particular Heidegger
book that I could pick up. I'm

546
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,599
not actually, I'm not. No, I'm not even I'm not a Highigger

547
00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:15,199
scholar. I just had one class
on Heidigger in uh grad school and it

548
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,159
was really contrasting Hidegren. Host Earl
was that whole class. So, uh,

549
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:25,599
Father Deacon at Nice would be a
lot better for that topic. Dermot

550
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:31,960
Moron was my professor. That's one
of the world's leading Hiderger scholars, so

551
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:37,559
he has some books on that.
Also, Hubert Dreyfus, I believe he's

552
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:43,000
out of Berkeley. We used der
Mount Moran and Dreyfuss in my in that

553
00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:47,639
class. So yeah, they're like
the two leading scholars probably off the top

554
00:50:47,639 --> 00:51:00,880
of my head goods because he has
kind of uh he was a book called

555
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,079
Phenomenology that's really good that covers kind
of all that stuff that's going on with

556
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,159
Userl and Heidegger. I mean,
just some books that are kind of a

557
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:16,639
more general approach. A lot of
scholars will pick some specific aspect out of

558
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:24,320
Hiderger to write about. So that's
why I recommended h Dermot Morn or Hubert

559
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:34,039
Drive was just kind of a good
overview of Heidiger. And then just go

560
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:37,800
ahead, go ahead, finely,
go ahead. It's just what we will

561
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,800
lose, all the all the listeners
will lead. I'm not I'm not mad

562
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:45,639
at you enough fuss think it's just
that nobody knows about and right, this

563
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,639
is totally unrelated to that. In
the Eric you Bara debate from a while

564
00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:53,840
ago, you had on with Mike
on Michael Watkins, you know, so

565
00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:00,360
you were he was kind of saying
basically that he was building kind of a

566
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:06,719
case for the papacy from like the
ground up, right, and you were

567
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:14,400
saying, basically the problem with that
was that it's ignoring all the constituent doctrines

568
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,920
that come with it. You can't
just argue from the ground up. Was

569
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,920
that the issue correct because he seemed
to be saying that, like, look,

570
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,760
let's just take this one piece at
a time. Yeah, he has

571
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:29,280
an evidentialist pile up the papal quote's
approach, and then eventually, if he

572
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,119
piles up enough quotes, it'll tilt
the scales over and it'll maybe even make

573
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:38,599
the papacy true. Right, right, So what's what's the problem with isolating

574
00:52:38,639 --> 00:52:43,840
one aspect and being like, Okay, let's just deeld because he is already

575
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,440
because he already said elsewhere that if
you could show one dogmatic contradiction, the

576
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:54,039
system would be nullified. Oh and
so the whole point of my argument in

577
00:52:54,039 --> 00:53:01,840
that whole debate was that Vatican two's
teaching post Vatican two contradicts previous Catholic dogma.

578
00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:07,159
And Eric says in the debate,
we'll have that debate another time.

579
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:12,199
I don't want to go there.
Let's just work through. The evidence is

580
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,199
piece by piece. And it's not
that I'm against evidences, but those guys

581
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,079
are Tomas, and they're evidentialists by
virtue of being Roman Catholic. I mean,

582
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:25,320
nint nine nine percent of all of
them are that, And so that

583
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:32,719
whole approach is flawed and it's self
referencing and arbitrary, which is ironic because

584
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,039
because they would say, well,
but you think tag is self referencing in

585
00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:42,639
arbitrary. Yeah, but that's why
I'm not a classical foundationalist like you are.

586
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:46,199
Right, So it's always an internal
critique when you're making those arguments pretty

587
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:52,320
much against them. When I'm when
I'm making that argument, it's an internal

588
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,360
critique. But not every argument is
an internal critique that I make. Now,

589
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,360
I make arguments all the time,
like you know, here's a quote

590
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:04,239
from Maximus that you know does makes
sense with Vatican one, right, but

591
00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:07,159
again, so you know, yeah, that's the point is that the reason

592
00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:14,679
that debate is so odd, I
guess is that he wanted to do one

593
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,880
thing. I wanted to do a
different thing, and so there never it

594
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:23,480
wasn't it was never what I was
arguing. He never addressed and can't address

595
00:54:23,519 --> 00:54:29,119
it because he would have to give
up his whole paradigm in order to Ultimately

596
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:31,159
what would happened is that it would
become an epistemology debate and he have to

597
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:36,639
he'd have to argue that there's self
evident truths basically, and that's if you

598
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,159
and if you want to see that
debate, that's the debate with Trent Horn

599
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,800
right right. And it kind of
it seemed like, I'll be honest,

600
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,480
it's kind of seemed like that went
over Trent's head. I hate to say

601
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:51,599
it. Of course, of Trent's
pretty sharp, which was pretty surprising,

602
00:54:52,159 --> 00:54:55,079
you know, honestly, But but
yeah, they kind of bring that the

603
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:59,679
debate up a lot, the Roman
Catholics. I talked to the one with

604
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,719
you, you know, the kind
of like, oh, well he got

605
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:07,559
school you know. I mean,
that's what Roman caviolc say to Cope about

606
00:55:07,559 --> 00:55:13,880
that debate. I didn't get schooled. Eric never addressed the argument that h

607
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,280
and by the way, you'll notice
everything that I said too about him and

608
00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:21,760
Lofton like that's all come to fruition
because they don't they don't like each other

609
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,559
anymore. But no, it's a
it's a very simple argument that the papacy

610
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:32,280
has a structure and a system by
which it doesn't allow any dogmatic contradictions.

611
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:37,960
And Abara admits that so the argument
was just simply, let's address the Vatican

612
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:43,119
two teachings that contradict pre Vatican two
teaching, and he said, we'll have

613
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:45,599
that debate some other time. I
don't want to do that right now.

614
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:52,960
So there you go. And again, am I not vindicated with Fiducia's supplicans

615
00:55:53,079 --> 00:56:00,159
or whatever Francis's skittles and cyclical is? I mean, come on, right,

616
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:12,199
so great question. Appreciate it all
right. Everybody is noting that I

617
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,440
seem to be in a chill mood
today. Thank you. I feel like

618
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,639
I'm in a chill I didn't get
mad at anybody, or I'm not even

619
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:27,360
typically mad in a heated debate.
But I just now understood that my suspicion

620
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,480
is correct, right, because the
text says, for that other guy,

621
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:35,440
those that forsake the Lord, forget
my Holy Mountain, prepare, prepare a

622
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,039
table for God and many. And
in the Orthodox Study Bible, right,

623
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:46,519
that's translated as pagan gods like fortune. Okay, but God does not equate

624
00:56:46,679 --> 00:56:51,599
to the English terminology and usage of
God. I mean, this is That's

625
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:53,639
why it's a word concept fallacy.
This reminds me of the guy, the

626
00:56:53,719 --> 00:57:00,840
dude that came up to you when
we're in California. Remember, yes,

627
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:07,119
by the way, I wanted to
point out first of all, etymology is

628
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:10,920
not the be all end all of
meaning. It can give us insights.

629
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,280
Words change, words don't have a
single reference. And two, the fact

630
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:22,559
that you can spin a story with
absolutely no evidence, And what did he

631
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:30,639
say? If it's true, wouldn't
this kind of make sense of That's that's

632
00:57:30,639 --> 00:57:36,079
not evidence, that's not justification for
your position. And I find it bizarre

633
00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:45,079
too that So God's going to keep
all of this hidden and until one man

634
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:53,039
two thousand years later writes a big
book and does some fancy stuff with etymology

635
00:57:53,079 --> 00:57:57,760
and switches some words and stuff like
that, and then discovers the real truth.

636
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,280
And God's going to allow that everybody's
just been deceived and it's all been

637
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,719
hidden and nobody had the truth that
we had to wait for this one man

638
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:12,400
to all right, yeah, exactly, let's go to Scott. Scott Grace

639
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:22,360
gotta unmute when you come on,
Scott. Yeah. I don't. I

640
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,719
don't think that he did understand the
point about word word concept fallacy, because

641
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,280
that's really that's the point here.
It's the same move that Muslims make where

642
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:35,719
they say that God can only pick
out the you know, single tawheed,

643
00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:40,840
the word God can pick out different
things. Scott, you gotta unmute man?

644
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,000
Hey, how's it going day?
What with you? Nothing much?

645
00:58:46,559 --> 00:58:52,960
So I was interested in discussing perseverance
of the saints with you. Okay,

646
00:58:52,039 --> 00:58:55,079
well why are you giggling? You? Are you gonnatroll me? No,

647
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,800
I'm just I'm just so excited.
But yeah, I was thinking about it

648
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:06,159
a lot. And the Orthodox physician
is obviously anti per experience of the Saints

649
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:10,280
from my understanding, but maybe are
there any Orthodox people that take that belief?

650
00:59:13,599 --> 00:59:17,159
No, Orthodox theology teachers that you
can participate in grace and lose your

651
00:59:17,159 --> 00:59:22,280
salvation. Gotcha? Gotcha? Yeah? I guess what I struggle with with

652
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,599
that idea. And obviously I think
that there's Christians that can fall away from

653
00:59:25,639 --> 00:59:30,280
the faith. I mean, the
Bible is pretty explicit about that, but

654
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:35,559
when we talk about like believers that
have genuine faith, I guess some roadblocks

655
00:59:35,599 --> 00:59:39,800
that I have with that idea is
that, you know, obviously, you

656
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:45,280
understand that God has foregn knowledge of
who will be saved before you know,

657
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:51,280
we even come into existence. So
you know, for example, like if

658
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,599
God knows that the apostle Paul is
going to be saved, or that Peter

659
00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:00,079
is going to be saved. It
seems that we can kind of say that

660
01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:06,320
they are going to persevere to the
end, like that is something that written.

661
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,559
But that doesn't make God the cause
of all of the events or the

662
01:00:09,679 --> 01:00:15,840
sole determinate cause of their salvation.
So God creates a world where there's secondary

663
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:22,440
causes and those people can participate and
synergize in the process of deification. So

664
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:28,159
the fact that God has foreknowledge is
not equivalent to the doctrine of the perseverance

665
01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:32,599
of the Saints, which is that
God infallibly ensures that the predetermined elect are

666
01:00:32,679 --> 01:00:38,960
saved. And this is all because
Calvinism and the predestinarian view of even Augustine

667
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:45,519
places soteriology before Christology. If you
look at Paul's Epistles and Ephesians, for

668
01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:47,920
example, the letter is not written
to the fixed number of the elect.

669
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,159
The letter is written to a visible
church in Ephesus who has apostolic succession.

670
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:59,559
So that fact alone really undercuts this
entire model in paradigm. Do you think

671
01:00:59,559 --> 01:01:02,840
in this is really matters whether or
not like Christ has made it so that

672
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,000
they'll persevere, Like, don't you
think the fact that God would have foreign

673
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:12,559
knowledge of their actions that they do
to earn salvation. That by default,

674
01:01:12,599 --> 01:01:15,800
it's almost like they are predestined to
live in a certain way that will lead

675
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,920
them to salvation. No, because
God is not the direct cause of all

676
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,400
events. I say, I guess
I struggle with does God have to be

677
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,800
the direct cause of all events?
Well, if he made them that way

678
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,360
so that they would become saved and
persevere, then yes he has to be.

679
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:37,480
That's why Calvinism typically ends up saying
that the divine decree is the real

680
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:44,280
basis for salvation in the divine In
the divine decree doctrine, it would mean

681
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,480
that God is the direct immediate cause
of all events and there's not proximate in

682
01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:52,599
secondary causes. Well, you would
agree that God obviously made us the way

683
01:01:52,599 --> 01:01:55,079
that we are in general, So
like, how would you explain how people

684
01:01:55,159 --> 01:01:58,559
reach salvation then, because like couldn't
you just say, like, well,

685
01:01:58,559 --> 01:02:01,440
God made someone in a certain way
where it's like they do enough repentance and

686
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:06,559
they do the proper things to be
saved. Anyway, Again, it hinges

687
01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:12,280
on the doctrine of anthropology that we
have, where there's a distinction between nature

688
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:16,400
and person. So human nature is
not determined. It has its own proper

689
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:22,400
willing and energy that never goes away. Even after the fall. Human nature

690
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:27,199
retains its will and energy, and
we know this from Christology because Christ assumes

691
01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:31,400
our nature and heals it. So
at no point does divine grace supplant,

692
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:37,480
destroy, or replace the human will
and energy. So the paradigm of Christology

693
01:02:37,519 --> 01:02:42,440
is the same as the paradigm of
steriology. So another thing too with that

694
01:02:42,599 --> 01:02:46,039
is I believe that you could come
to the conclusion of perseverance of the saints,

695
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:53,679
or like perseverance of the believer without
necessarily having to completely forego free will.

696
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,920
I don't know if. I mean, yeah, I understand that all

697
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:06,320
Calvinists verbally free will, but they
don't consistently confirm and affirm the idea that

698
01:03:07,199 --> 01:03:10,599
human beings are their own causal agents. So that's the problem here, and

699
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,079
the way that we can nail that
down really quick is to talk about Christology,

700
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:21,480
because both Augustine and Calvin are inconsistent
on their Christology. And I can

701
01:03:21,519 --> 01:03:23,039
ask you the same questions as well. I mean, do you think Jesus

702
01:03:23,119 --> 01:03:30,480
was predestined? No? Because he's
always existed? Wow? No? No,

703
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,880
no, predestined to when he becomes
incarnate. Is that is he a

704
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,800
predestined man? It's a term that
Augustine uses. I would say, no,

705
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,079
why is he not a predestined man? If you're a Calvinist or an

706
01:03:44,079 --> 01:03:49,239
Augustinian. Well, I don't consider
myself a Calvinist or Augustinian, so I

707
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,039
don't really know like what their response
would be. Okay, well, I

708
01:03:52,039 --> 01:03:55,440
thought you were arguing the Calvinist positions. I'm misunderstood again. So maybe you

709
01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:00,239
don't understand what secondary causes are.
Do you know what that means? So

710
01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:05,840
explain that to me. Yeah,
so primary cause God, Like, are

711
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:12,320
you familiar with Islam and all?
A little bit right? So Sunni Muslims,

712
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,519
for example, like, they have
this idea that there's no created causal

713
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:18,679
agents in the world. And the
reason that you can't say that, they

714
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:23,679
think, is because it would detract
from God's sovereignty if there were other beings

715
01:04:23,679 --> 01:04:27,639
that could be causal agents. And
so this becomes the term. The term

716
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:30,360
is called occasionalism. And this is
the idea, This is the idea that

717
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:36,039
at every second, every nanosecond,
God is destroying and recreating the world.

718
01:04:36,199 --> 01:04:42,159
Now, some Calvinists also adopted this
position, like Jonathan Edwards because they thought

719
01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:48,199
it was more consistent with the idea
of God's determining decree. So if we

720
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:55,639
say that there are secondary causes,
that means that agents that God creates in

721
01:04:55,719 --> 01:05:00,360
the world have a real ability to
be their own causal determinants. So God

722
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,920
is not the direct determining cause of
all those events. So if that's all

723
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:10,440
right, if that's admitted, that
would preclude what you're arguing about foreknowledge entailing

724
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:14,400
perseverance of the saints. I would
agree with that. I would agree with

725
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:16,760
that. I think that obviously.
I think that you can reach something like

726
01:05:17,199 --> 01:05:23,679
an idea that someone will persevere to
the end without the fact that God knows.

727
01:05:23,719 --> 01:05:29,599
That does not make God the cause
of every one of those then doesn't

728
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:38,039
entail perseverance. Why are you laughing? I'm not laughing. I'm like breathing.

729
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:45,599
If God knows that something is going
to happen, then I'm not saying

730
01:05:45,639 --> 01:05:50,880
that he necessarily for ordained it,
but just the someone right right, Yeah,

731
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,119
I see, I think you can
come to that conclusion without calvinism.

732
01:05:55,159 --> 01:06:00,440
Like, for example, I think
I forget what verse it is, but

733
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:06,639
it's talking about the characteristics of Yeah. But again, so God foreknowing the

734
01:06:06,679 --> 01:06:12,760
events of Paul persevering to the end
does not mean that God is the direct

735
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,639
immediate cause of every action in Paul's
life. Oh yeah, I completely agree,

736
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:23,840
because maybe you're misunderstanding then what we
mean by participating in grace, because

737
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:27,000
there's a lot of people in the
New Testament, for example, in Hebrew

738
01:06:27,079 --> 01:06:30,840
six who are said to be washed
with the with the baptism, they partake

739
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:36,199
of the heavenly gift and they fall
away. Jesus talks about seeds that fall

740
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,360
on stones, they spring up to
new life, and they wither away and

741
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:45,039
die. So those are people who
really experience grace and do not persevere until

742
01:06:45,079 --> 01:06:47,119
the end. Yeah, for sure. And I would say this like I

743
01:06:47,159 --> 01:06:51,159
think you can come to that conclusion
from like a free will perspective. Like

744
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:56,000
when it's talking about faith, one
of the things that it says is that

745
01:06:56,039 --> 01:07:00,639
it involves love and love always perseveres. So like I believe that if someone

746
01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:05,360
truly loves God, and it is
the biblical definition of love, that that

747
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,840
love and faith in God will always
persevere if it is truly loved. Well,

748
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,159
I mean this is just redefining terms
to make uh, you know,

749
01:07:14,239 --> 01:07:17,679
once they'd always say be the case, I mean the texture. Okay,

750
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:21,800
well that's the position, and then
you just admitted it wrong. Well for

751
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:26,159
sure, I mean I argue that
per experience of the scenes could be can

752
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:30,360
be derived from something other than like
a very like five point Calvinism type view,

753
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:32,840
Like I think you could have that
view and not be a Calvinist,

754
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:38,000
like for example, like mullanis believe
in that for example. Yeah, but

755
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,760
again, like what what does any
of this have to do with like Christology

756
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,840
or the arguments that you know,
Like so if you if you're redefining truly

757
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,840
loving God to just mean I mean, at that point, then it's just

758
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:54,920
you're still not escaping the issue because
don't you think most of those people who

759
01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:59,519
fell away, for example in the
texts that are mentioned, don't you think

760
01:07:59,519 --> 01:08:01,639
if you'd them before they fell away, do you truly love God? They

761
01:08:01,679 --> 01:08:04,960
probably would have said yeah, and
and like you know, maybe maybe they

762
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:10,400
even believed it right, And I
would say my argument is they might have

763
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:14,079
like loved God, but I don't
think that they loved God enough like you

764
01:08:14,199 --> 01:08:17,840
need to truly love someone like for
example, like if you're in a relationship

765
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:23,000
with your wife and I say to
you like, you know, you love

766
01:08:23,039 --> 01:08:26,840
your wife. But if I say, like, I'm not trying to understand,

767
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,800
I'm not trying to be rude.
But if you're just redefining all the

768
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:35,079
terms to fit your position, then
then what is the position? Well,

769
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:40,000
what terms would you say that I've
redefined? I mean, you just said

770
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:44,520
that, now, what it means
to persevere is to quote truly love God.

771
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,319
So it sounds like just a way
to Oh yeah, let me explain

772
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:51,840
that. I'm sorry if I wasn't
super explicit there. So what I mean

773
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:57,439
to say is I believe you're justified
by faith. And so I was describing

774
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:02,399
the characteristics of what faith is because
faith, salvation and involved in faith is

775
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,720
more than just knowledge about God.
You have to trust and believe and love

776
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:11,359
God. And the definition of love
is that love always perseveres. So if

777
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:14,239
you attach that to what it means
to be a truth again, so you're

778
01:09:14,319 --> 01:09:17,880
redefining all of the terms to make
your position work, because that's not what

779
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:25,359
these terms mean in the New Testament
or in Patristic theology. So you have

780
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:30,479
a presupposition about what perseverance of the
saints means. And once they'd always saved

781
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,880
and any objection that I bring up, that everything is redefined to make that

782
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:39,920
view still work. And the point
is that where are you getting these ideas

783
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,079
about what that truly means? It
sounds like this is just your position.

784
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,319
So I think there's several verses in
the Bible you could pull up that describe

785
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:49,560
what faith is. I mean,
wouldn't you agree faith? No? No,

786
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:54,119
no, no? About the fact
that when I bring up text that

787
01:09:54,199 --> 01:09:58,800
talk about really apostatizing, you redefine
that to mean that, yeah, and

788
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,479
that just means that they didn't true
love God? Well, how else could

789
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,479
you explain it? Because how could
they have finished by what I said?

790
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:09,600
How else? What? How could
they be? How could they have been

791
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:14,119
a true believer if they walked away? By everything that I've been arguing to

792
01:10:14,159 --> 01:10:16,640
you, it says that they taste
of the heavenly gift. It says that

793
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:21,600
new life sprang up in them,
and that withered away and died. Right,

794
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,720
And you're saying that it doesn't mean
that it means that they never were

795
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,439
really alive. Is essentially what you're
saying. I'm saying that you could receive

796
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,239
gifts and not experience. It doesn't
say just received gift It says received new

797
01:10:32,279 --> 01:10:38,640
life and they died. It says
that they apostatize from the Covenant they tasted

798
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:44,199
of the heavenly gift. So I
guess the point would be, if you

799
01:10:44,239 --> 01:10:46,640
taste of the heavenly gift, you
have new life. The question is can

800
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,880
you give that up? Can you
have new life? Obviously, because that's

801
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:55,479
what the passages are saying, right, So I guess I would struggle with

802
01:10:55,520 --> 01:11:01,359
the verses that says love always perseveres
because then you run into roadblocks like that,

803
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:05,520
or the fact that certain people.
It's not a roadblock because if you

804
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:10,680
truly love God, you won't fall
away, meaning that you will continue to

805
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,840
work out your salvation with fear and
trembling, as Paul says, correct,

806
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,520
and none of that is once saved, always saved, or is the perseverance

807
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,600
of the saints and August. None
of that is that. Oh yeah,

808
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:26,399
And I think that you can well
leave in that idea without being haughty and

809
01:11:26,399 --> 01:11:29,199
saying like, oh, I'm persevered, so therefore I don't have to live

810
01:11:29,239 --> 01:11:31,600
in fear and try. But if
you're admitting, oh yeah, then that's

811
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,520
not the position that you took a
minute ago. Well, I never said

812
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:41,399
that I apply on. So this
is not going anywhere, all right,

813
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:54,880
Ethan Bracken, what's up? So
people who want to debate the topics listed

814
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:59,800
today can come into the chat.
Of course, you can lose love exactly.

815
01:12:02,359 --> 01:12:17,119
Go ahead, Ethan. All right. So it's a lot of linguistic

816
01:12:17,159 --> 01:12:24,199
misunderstandings. It seems like as a
recurring pattern. Do you want to come

817
01:12:24,239 --> 01:12:26,159
back, Scott, I'm not trying
to be mean to you. I'm not.

818
01:12:26,199 --> 01:12:28,479
I'm trying to be patient. I'm
trying to lose my patience. You

819
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:35,560
can come back, make a point. Go ahead, Scott, go ahead.

820
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:47,039
I made you a speaker. You
can come back if you want or

821
01:12:47,079 --> 01:12:57,920
not. Don't speak. Thank you
guys for the super chats. Appreciate that.

822
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:09,880
Thomas Guzman is trying again with his
microphone. What's up? Thomas?

823
01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:15,680
Got it? I'm you man,
Can you hear me now? Yep?

824
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:20,079
All right. I've noticed there's been
a lot of movement with the whole neo

825
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:27,199
pagan crew over on x uh huh. Now. I'm an Orthodox Christian.

826
01:13:27,319 --> 01:13:32,840
I've been Orthodox for three years now. I've repented of this, but I

827
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:38,640
had been involved in the occult,
deeply involved in the occult for years in

828
01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:45,720
neopagan circles. I was a theosophist, like the real deal. And one

829
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:53,840
thing that I consistently noticed with neopagan's
boots when I was involved in this highly

830
01:13:53,880 --> 01:14:00,359
sinful lifestyle and now is there's like
really a totally complete lack of anythingology basically.

831
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:06,359
Sure, So like as an example, you know, usually Neopaganism,

832
01:14:06,399 --> 01:14:10,800
like if you look at some of
the classic works of let's say Wika,

833
01:14:11,239 --> 01:14:15,720
so like the Witch's Bible or anything
by Scott Cunningham like today, because they

834
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:20,600
basically set up a theology which is
Hindu light. Right, if you go

835
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:27,880
to a neopagan circle and you want
to talk about pagan theology, it'll immediately

836
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:30,800
just stop and someone will say,
well, I don't agree with that.

837
01:14:30,239 --> 01:14:40,000
So like literally there's there's no real
theological basis within the cultural paganism. What

838
01:14:40,079 --> 01:14:42,560
it kind of reminds me of is, you know fandom, Like if you

839
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,319
go to a convention like a Star
Wars convention, like you're just part You're

840
01:14:45,319 --> 01:14:50,840
just part of the community. That's
basically what neopaganism is. Like real.

841
01:14:51,279 --> 01:14:57,760
I did a video from Florida in
twenty eighteen making this very critique. So

842
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,640
yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Now, within neopaganism, it's usually a

843
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:09,840
lefty movement and they now they police
themselves really hard there quote unquote right wing

844
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:15,920
neopagans like the ascid true neopagans.
But like what these people failed to realize

845
01:15:15,039 --> 01:15:20,079
is like the Vikings, like they
weren't Nazis, you know, like and

846
01:15:20,199 --> 01:15:25,399
they didn't attack Christians or monasteries because
they were doing it for Odin. They

847
01:15:25,399 --> 01:15:29,640
were just doing it to steal stuff. That's why that's a great point.

848
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:38,079
By the way, they they were
released the especially the right, the right

849
01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:42,399
wing as you called it, neo
pagans were released in attacking me all week.

850
01:15:43,119 --> 01:15:46,640
And one thing that they're all part
of, Rabbi Adam Green is I

851
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:57,319
call them. But what's really interesting
they have very thorough modern ideas that are

852
01:15:57,359 --> 01:16:03,680
not paid like biological determinism, Darwinian
kind of. So I just I wanted

853
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:08,039
to comment on that because it's actually
true. Yeah, well what we find

854
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:12,000
out is it really is. Yeah, it's just another way to be an

855
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:17,479
atheist with different costumes. So remember
remember we are on YouTube as well,

856
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:25,239
so we're going to keep it to
you know, let's not get too sassy

857
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:27,960
with what we talked about Did you
have any other issues you wanted to get

858
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,119
to Thomas before we move on.
Yeah. One thing I want to say

859
01:16:30,119 --> 01:16:36,239
about right wing Neopagans or a lot
of neo Pagans in general, is I

860
01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:42,840
I view them as nonpracticing atheists.
That's how I yeh, that's exactly right.

861
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,840
Yeah, absolutely, it's got the
same spirits. They've got the same

862
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:49,159
arguments. Yeah, spot on,
yep, yeah, yeah. And I'm

863
01:16:49,159 --> 01:16:53,960
not trying to be rude or know
it all or like, but if you

864
01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:00,439
go watch my twenty eighteen video critiquing
paganism where I'm wearing a wig and I

865
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:03,720
have a sword and I'm singing pagan
songs, the original one, not the

866
01:17:04,399 --> 01:17:08,159
skid I did a year ago.
Yeah, I was. I was making

867
01:17:08,159 --> 01:17:11,319
that same critique now. The reason
for that is that I was arguing with

868
01:17:11,359 --> 01:17:15,319
an act interacting with the Pagans even
back then at that time. And no,

869
01:17:15,319 --> 01:17:19,000
those arguments are never going to change
or get any more sophisticated. Yaru,

870
01:17:19,159 --> 01:17:26,319
what's up? Yeah, there is
no like pagan tradition to go join.

871
01:17:27,279 --> 01:17:30,560
And you know, remember the Boglord
Debate Dave debate, Right, we

872
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,319
did the Boglord Dave Debate back in
twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and what

873
01:17:34,399 --> 01:17:41,439
we noticed from that debate was it's
just sort of atheist arguments relativism, subjectivism,

874
01:17:42,119 --> 01:17:45,760
and materialism, but maybe a little
bit of mythology, you know,

875
01:17:46,319 --> 01:17:53,000
basically the same type of mythological view
of Jordan Peterson. Basically, so yeah,

876
01:17:53,039 --> 01:17:58,600
there's there's no there there so to
speak, Yaru was up, Hey

877
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:04,760
he yep, So I think I
have a problem with tag. I'm wondering

878
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:11,800
how exactly God could play a justifictory
role to epistemic norms because I thought the

879
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:16,560
only thing that played just victory rules
were epistemic standards norms. Yeah, but

880
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:21,159
this is talking about the preconditions themselves. How are they justified or how are

881
01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:27,039
they made coherent? So raise the
bar to one higher level of meta justification.

882
01:18:27,119 --> 01:18:30,479
And that's why it's God, because
it's not just any old God,

883
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:35,760
but specifically the metaphysics of Christianity and
the epistemology that Christianity offers is that is

884
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:45,640
the justification. So why exactly is
God a preconditioned for logic because all of

885
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:51,079
the transcendental categories have to in the
words of for example, Thomas or excuse

886
01:18:51,079 --> 01:18:56,800
me, doctor ed faser. They
have to be housed or interrelated in some

887
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:00,720
way or in some place. And
so that's the function that the divine mind

888
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,840
place for us, which is to
string all of this, all these golden

889
01:19:05,079 --> 01:19:09,560
string the pearls together, so to
speak, on a single string. Does

890
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,640
that make sense? Words? In
other words, the categories don't like function

891
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:18,960
on their own as independent, discrete
things. So universals ties into logic,

892
01:19:19,399 --> 01:19:25,000
logic ties into ethics and metaphysics,
you know, all these things kind of

893
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:30,880
hanging together as a specific type of
worldview. And the only worldview that has

894
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:34,560
the solution to those problems is the
Christian paradigm. Yeah, why can't it

895
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:41,079
be just the good? What?
There's no account for just what the good

896
01:19:41,239 --> 01:19:45,199
is? So to say that it's
something that's sort of impersonal or abstracted like

897
01:19:45,239 --> 01:19:49,760
that doesn't work because you need to
excuse me intentionality. In other words,

898
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:55,079
for example, to have te lose
or to have a universe that's purposive,

899
01:19:55,640 --> 01:20:00,119
you need an intentional being. So
it can't just be some abstracted platonic idea

900
01:20:00,279 --> 01:20:05,720
like the good. Uh? Why
does it need to be intentional to have

901
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:12,720
purposiveness and to have telos? Uh? And think about it this way.

902
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:20,039
If it's non intentional, it's accidental, in which pays everything is distantly love

903
01:20:21,119 --> 01:20:30,239
yes, and everything is meaningless.
It's an oxymoron. The the accidental laws

904
01:20:30,279 --> 01:20:38,840
of logic, the accidental laws of
physics, accidental meaning. So in a

905
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:43,279
world like that, there are no
argumentes, there's no meaning, there's no

906
01:20:43,319 --> 01:20:47,000
semantics or anything like that, because
it ultimately is accidental. That's why,

907
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:56,159
by impossibility the contrary, it has
to be purposeful and intentional. Okay,

908
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,199
yeah, I think that's good.
I might want to go back because I

909
01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:02,960
think the skeptic could maybe say something
earlier. They might want to say that,

910
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:09,560
Oh no, all these things like
logic, the soul, objective,

911
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:13,760
morality, or whatnot, those things
are actually all disjointed and they all just

912
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,640
exist on their own. But notice
what he's saying. He's making a statement

913
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:21,359
about Yeah, in a world in
which statements are impossible, Yeah, So

914
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:28,439
how are statements possible in his worldview? How are statements possible? Yeah,

915
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,640
sentences are only possible in a certain
type of world, namely the world that

916
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:36,079
we are arguing for. So when
he makes sentences, he's using preconditions and

917
01:21:36,119 --> 01:21:41,079
categories that don't make sense in his
worldview, and so he's unjustified in using

918
01:21:41,119 --> 01:21:46,920
them. So he can't even argue
or make sentences. So yeah, that

919
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,119
might be right. What does he
just say something like, oh, a

920
01:21:50,119 --> 01:21:54,000
monkey is able to communicate to other
monkeys in the same way that we are

921
01:21:54,960 --> 01:22:00,000
again saying, he's making statements about
a monkey in which statements are not possible.

922
01:22:00,119 --> 01:22:08,800
So okay, he can't even get
off the ground. Yeah, that's

923
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:12,079
so's right, all right, appreciate
it. Yeah, good questions, Yeah,

924
01:22:12,199 --> 01:22:19,960
really good questions. Let's see,
so we're giving precedents today to people

925
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:28,159
who disagree. Uh, let's see
Pakistani Psycho. That's an awesome selling name.

926
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:30,920
We gotta go to that guy.
Thank you, guys for the support.

927
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,439
Our support the show via super chats. You can call in via the

928
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,119
Twitter link that is linked in the
show description and in the chat it's the

929
01:22:39,199 --> 01:22:43,720
excell link that you see there.
Everybody always asking the link that we share

930
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:47,399
and tell you about literally one hundred
times throughout the chat. Uh. And

931
01:22:47,399 --> 01:22:53,079
then you can also support the stream
via stream Labs super chats, and that

932
01:22:53,319 --> 01:23:01,000
is this link right here. Did
you want to talk, dude? I

933
01:23:01,039 --> 01:23:10,600
don't understand that people request to speak
and then they sit there silent for they

934
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:14,600
won't talk. I don't know.
Open eye Institution. What's up, dude,

935
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,840
shout out to the chat what's up
you guys? Thanks to the mods

936
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:26,039
keeping it real. What's up,
Paul, what's up? Bell sprout?

937
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:34,560
What's up? Greedy? Speedy?
Go ahead? Yeah, Well, you

938
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:41,880
gotta understand, religion is made by
civilization that thinks they could set all the

939
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:46,880
rules that they are the authority of
God. But the original, uh the

940
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:53,439
name of God was these aliens coming
down on spaceships and we called them the

941
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:58,399
gods. Okay, uh, but
did you read did you watch that on

942
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:02,560
the History Channel? Been watching the
History Cheneral? I'm the one that sees

943
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:06,279
I'm a psycho. I'm a scientist
and stuff, and I do field research

944
01:24:06,319 --> 01:24:11,840
out there in the field. But
what what's what's what field of science do

945
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:18,920
you study? Uh? In physical
dimensions, arabology, Arabology. Yeah,

946
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:25,239
I'm the number one scientist of the
paranormal thing. It's kind of like I

947
01:24:25,319 --> 01:24:32,840
believe, you know, because of
the scientists of Yeah, I mean,

948
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:38,279
this guy studies you guys, so
he's trumped you. Yeah. Well,

949
01:24:38,359 --> 01:24:42,840
let me explain to you, uh, the profits and the gurus that fly

950
01:24:43,399 --> 01:24:46,479
y'all flying so high, right,
but then you find out you're flying so

951
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:51,279
low because I'm seeing y'all flying really
low and y'all wreckon into the mountains and

952
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:56,319
telephone poles and ship like that.
That's wild. Dog, Hey, listen,

953
01:24:56,359 --> 01:25:00,880
I appreciate it. You're you're the
number one paramental paranormal scien man on

954
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:04,840
the Internet. So I will concede
that you win the debate. I concede

955
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:11,319
to you. Dog. Let's see
Houston, who hoo? What's up?

956
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:18,199
Who hoot? Number one science man
on the in, and that I started

957
01:25:18,239 --> 01:25:30,039
the shack ofsphere like like Rush Cole, I'm you, bro, Houston,

958
01:25:31,199 --> 01:25:42,359
Houston, we have lyftoff. Where
you at? Bro? Where you at?

959
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:46,560
Dog? He's trying to connect.
He gotta he's got a kind of

960
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:51,359
a a little bit of a borrow
look going on to him. You know

961
01:25:51,359 --> 01:25:55,720
what I'm saying. He got a
little bit of a barrow face, Houston.

962
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,079
Where you at, Dude, try
coming out and coming back in because

963
01:25:59,079 --> 01:26:01,760
you're not You're not gonna man,
Just try coming out and come back in.

964
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:04,840
You gotta eat borrow a face.
I'm ready to bring you on,

965
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:19,079
man, punk giver, Punk giver, mhm, I said, oops,

966
01:26:19,159 --> 01:26:21,880
up side your head. I said, oops, upside your head. I

967
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:26,239
said oops up side your head.
I said, oop upside your head?

968
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:30,199
Unmute? Man picking buglers? I
put a bugger on the basketball and I

969
01:26:30,199 --> 01:26:33,479
passed it to him. Tristan didn't
even know who biz Marky was. Can

970
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,199
you believe Tristan didn't know who biz
Marky was. I'm like, what,

971
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:42,960
that's awful? How do you not
know? Oh? Baby, you you

972
01:26:43,079 --> 01:26:48,399
got what I need? Will you
say? You just a friend? Anyway?

973
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:51,479
Uh? Biz Marky has the song
picking burgers that was on the first

974
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:56,199
tape I ever bought as a kid, had biz Marky picking burgers on it.

975
01:26:57,439 --> 01:27:00,520
You gotta unmute, dude, punk
unmute. Hey, how's it going,

976
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:04,720
Jay? Can you hear me?
Yes? Sir? Hey, Well,

977
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:09,560
I've got one question. I'm a
feist and I've got a question in

978
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:15,079
regards to Quran. I watch a
lot of politic debates, poetic debates,

979
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:19,880
and I found one argument by myself. I've never seen it anyone anywhere else,

980
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:25,800
and I would like you to rate
it and check its validating. What

981
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,199
do you think? Can I go
for? Well? Hey? I mean

982
01:27:30,159 --> 01:27:32,439
sure, I mean I'm not an
expert in Islam. So you know,

983
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,159
for example, you know Rid Vaughan, he found that really good argument against

984
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:41,760
Daniel Hikikachu about the name Yahweh.
So yeah, it's it's always possible to

985
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:45,439
find a new argument, all right, all right, so let me try.

986
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:48,880
Okay, I'm going to talk about
a Sura eighteen, which is the

987
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:56,199
sura so called Cave. Yeah.
It talks about a narrative where Jews from

988
01:27:56,239 --> 01:28:02,000
Medina try to understand know whether the
Muhammad is really a prophet, right,

989
01:28:02,399 --> 01:28:10,479
so they instruct some people from the
Courage tribe asking three questions. The first

990
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:16,640
question was about a group of young
men of ancient times with an extraordinary story.

991
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,640
By the way, I'm reading a
commentary from the study Quran, page

992
01:28:21,319 --> 01:28:29,079
seven. The second question was about
a man who had journeyed until he reached

993
01:28:29,079 --> 01:28:33,199
the east and west of the earth, who was supposedly to be so called

994
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:40,079
dull Kornaine yeah meaning two horned one
in Arabic translated. And the third one

995
01:28:40,159 --> 01:28:45,800
was about the spirit. Well the
question in regards to the first question,

996
01:28:47,119 --> 01:28:56,159
they're known in Christianity as the sleepers
of the Cave, supposed supposedly venerated saints

997
01:28:56,359 --> 01:29:00,000
who slept Yeah, I brought this
up in the debate with Daniel gets you

998
01:29:00,119 --> 01:29:03,840
because it's in the It's in the
Gabriel sied Reynolds book. Yeah, yeah,

999
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,239
yeah, that's it. Well,
well, it was a trick question,

1000
01:29:08,359 --> 01:29:12,520
right, Jews do not believe this
at all. It was a question

1001
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:18,159
whether they wanted to know whether they
Mohammad aligns more with Christian narratives or their

1002
01:29:18,239 --> 01:29:21,239
narratives. And they asked him this
trick question. Okay, that's the first

1003
01:29:21,279 --> 01:29:28,960
one. The Jews couldn't accept this
answer because Mohammad basically affirmed those sleepers.

1004
01:29:29,039 --> 01:29:33,399
Right. The second question, which
is more interesting, is about du Cornane.

1005
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:39,840
As I said, it means literally
two horned one right. And my

1006
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:44,800
assumption, the first assumption is when
Jews asked this question. When Jews asked

1007
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:46,920
this question, they they must have
known about this tol Karnane, right,

1008
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:54,439
that's my assumption. Well, which
which versus this? I'm gonna tell you

1009
01:29:54,520 --> 01:30:04,560
right now, give me a sec
surah or cough eighteen eighty three, Qurana

1010
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:10,439
eighteen eighty three, straw eighteen verse
eighty three, right, go ahead.

1011
01:30:10,119 --> 01:30:15,239
So they asked him about this dull
cour name, Well, no one know

1012
01:30:15,399 --> 01:30:19,199
that name is in the battle,
right, Oh is there? Well,

1013
01:30:19,319 --> 01:30:25,560
let's step out of this question for
a second and let's ask ourselves. Right,

1014
01:30:26,159 --> 01:30:30,600
if you were a prophet of God
or God himself, for example,

1015
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:36,039
and a Christian wanted to know,
you would ask him who would you wanted

1016
01:30:36,079 --> 01:30:42,600
to know about? Right? Who
wouldn't average Christian wanted to know about more

1017
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:49,359
more than he already knows. Let's
say Jesus, I mean exactly, Yeah,

1018
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:57,239
who wouldn't average Muslim wanted to know
about Muhammad? Yes? And Jews,

1019
01:30:58,039 --> 01:31:01,760
as my assumption goes, wanted to
know about Moses. Well, yeah,

1020
01:31:02,159 --> 01:31:05,960
that's it. Well, the thing
is sorry about that. The thing

1021
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:12,399
is that there were Latin and Hebrew
manuscript Latin translation of Hebrew manuscript that had

1022
01:31:12,399 --> 01:31:15,800
a copist error found in Exodus thirty
four, twenty nine to thirty five,

1023
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:20,640
where Moses steps down out of the
Mount Sinai, right, the horns and

1024
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:26,319
the yeah yeah, yeah, exactly, and the original Hebrew words in exibus

1025
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:30,520
U described the radiance as you said, as horns. But it was a

1026
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:39,359
translation error, right, right,
So from that point onward, a lot

1027
01:31:39,359 --> 01:31:49,159
of Roman Catholic art and like with
Mickeylang exactly exactly. And then Muhammad basically

1028
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:55,960
proceeded with some bogus story about dolkor
Nain when the Jews wanted to know about

1029
01:31:56,039 --> 01:32:01,680
Moses from the start. And that's
basically it. That's basically I've never really

1030
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:05,880
heard about no Christian apology to talk
about this, and I wanted to know

1031
01:32:06,119 --> 01:32:12,199
what do you think about this argument
overall? So you're arguing that the Koran

1032
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:17,479
is therefore not very perceptive because if
it was from God, they would have

1033
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:24,279
known that this was a mistranslation.
So exactly the Muhammad and and Allah would

1034
01:32:24,359 --> 01:32:29,920
know what she was mean by that
b karmng. But yeah, yeah,

1035
01:32:30,159 --> 01:32:36,039
that's it. That's basically yeah.
I think that's a good point. It

1036
01:32:36,079 --> 01:32:41,800
fits very well with uh. I
think Gabriel side Reynolds in his book he

1037
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:46,319
lists about ten discrepancies like this.
I don't remember him mentioning this one.

1038
01:32:46,359 --> 01:32:49,520
So yeah, I think that would
be a good one to throw into the

1039
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:53,279
the pile there. But there's quite
a few. There's quite a few of

1040
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:57,680
these, you know, weird versions
of things in the Quran that that make

1041
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,640
no sense in terms of the Biblical
story, or they've mixed up the details,

1042
01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:05,319
or they've got it reversed, or
it contradicts so yeah, thank you,

1043
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:11,560
thank you for this review. Absolutely, yeah, I'm trying to think

1044
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:15,760
of how how Muslims would Uh,
They're probably just gonna say, you know,

1045
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,880
Moses really, what this whatever really
is a two horned person or something?

1046
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,199
Who knows. They'll just say,
oh, the Bible is full of

1047
01:33:23,319 --> 01:33:28,039
errors. So they roll out the
Bibles full of errors, until you know,

1048
01:33:28,119 --> 01:33:30,319
they realize that giant portions of their
religion are built on the Bible,

1049
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:34,159
right, and then their religion says
also that the Bible didn't have errors.

1050
01:33:34,159 --> 01:33:51,880
So storage file. Yeah, I'm
mute, hell sir, what's on your

1051
01:33:51,920 --> 01:34:00,560
mind? Oh? Just uh,
just wondering about you know, like this

1052
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:04,279
the sacrifice or the horns or whatever. Did you al say that Moses had

1053
01:34:04,279 --> 01:34:13,000
to warns no horns? Who had
horns? Or what? The Quran is

1054
01:34:13,079 --> 01:34:17,159
using the mistranslated text that thinks that
Moses had horns is the mistranslation of a

1055
01:34:17,199 --> 01:34:21,680
word, So the Qoran wasn't aware
of a mistranslation. It's similar to the

1056
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:27,119
argument I make about the papacy.
How come the papacy didn't know about the

1057
01:34:27,159 --> 01:34:29,960
forgeries that they based themselves on.
I would think that if they were a

1058
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:33,279
divinely guided institution, they would have
been able to know and spot forgeries,

1059
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:43,119
but no they didn't. So I'm
just interested in the like, yeah,

1060
01:34:43,279 --> 01:34:49,600
like the Orthodox Church, and like
how like you know the cop Into like

1061
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:54,239
the Coptic Church, and how like
the Coptic people. How the was it

1062
01:34:54,279 --> 01:35:00,479
Marked that went and founded the Coptic
Church. Uh, well, Saint Mark

1063
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:04,319
went to Alexandria. But what's nowadays
called Coptic, we would say is a

1064
01:35:04,319 --> 01:35:13,960
schismatic church. And that's like Middle
like they use like a Rabi, they

1065
01:35:14,039 --> 01:35:18,479
use like a rape or like something
like that. Well eventually they use Coptic,

1066
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,800
but Greek and then now Coptic.
But thank you for those questions.

1067
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:26,479
Are going to move on to people
who disagree. So remember today's discussion is

1068
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:31,840
primarily if you take issue with my
approach or arguments for God's existence, Protestantism,

1069
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:35,359
Roman Catholicism, the papacy, Vatican
one, Church history, Vatican two,

1070
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:40,159
Islam, et cetera. It is
open forums, so feel free to

1071
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:45,560
come on hop on. But if
you agree today is not for you,

1072
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:51,119
guys, you're welcome to hop on
and ask questions later on another stream or

1073
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:55,920
via the discord or whatever. People
can ask questions to people in the discord.

1074
01:35:56,359 --> 01:36:00,680
I'm not usually in the discord,
but sometimes there's people. Sometimes I'm

1075
01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:04,520
in there maybe once every few months. Thomas, I was gonna go back,

1076
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:08,439
Tyrone Baggins, what's up, Tyrone? Does anybody have any arguments or

1077
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:24,640
disagreements today? Is we're giving preference
to people who disagree Tyrone. I see

1078
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:27,880
that one guy left and never came
back Houston. He probably got his feelings

1079
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:30,079
hurt because I was making a joke. I'm just saying, you have you

1080
01:36:30,199 --> 01:36:31,720
kind of look like a bar.
I'm not saying I'm not being meaned,

1081
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:34,960
you man, It's just people can't
even lose their mind if you make a

1082
01:36:35,039 --> 01:36:41,600
joke. Aiden, what's up?
Aiden? Alexander's Oldeniessen sends five dollars and

1083
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:44,279
he said, what do you think
about Nicola Tesla? I think he's pretty

1084
01:36:44,279 --> 01:36:47,039
cool. He definitely had some insights. I think he went from Orthodox though,

1085
01:36:47,079 --> 01:36:54,119
and kind of got into theosophy or
theosophic type ideas. So I know

1086
01:36:54,199 --> 01:36:57,279
that the Serbian priest read a book
about him. I've heard of this,

1087
01:37:00,079 --> 01:37:03,800
but I've also heard that later on
in life he kind of went into theosophy.

1088
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:12,079
But it seems like a very cool
science esoteric science, metaphysic metaphysics.

1089
01:37:12,079 --> 01:37:16,640
Man Aiden, what's up? Dog? You gott im? Mute? Man

1090
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,560
Aiden? Do you want to talk? You came on? It? Just

1091
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:41,039
unmute dude, Cody, what's up? Cody's coming on? Cody's the next

1092
01:37:41,119 --> 01:37:47,920
up. So remember, guys,
if you try to come on and it

1093
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:51,640
has an issue connecting, maybe weird
cell connection or whatever, just come out

1094
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:55,359
and come back in is the way
to do that. And then hit request

1095
01:37:55,359 --> 01:38:00,000
to speak again. So it looks
like Cody's having a hard time connecting,

1096
01:38:00,079 --> 01:38:09,279
and go ahead on mute Cody.
Hey, hey, good to talk to

1097
01:38:09,319 --> 01:38:13,000
you, sir. What's on your
moum? Yeah? I was just interested.

1098
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:16,880
I read. You know, I'm
a Bible believing Christian and I believe

1099
01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:21,399
the Bible was tampered with, like
apparently like there was different books in the

1100
01:38:21,399 --> 01:38:25,640
Bible, like the Book of Enoch, which was taken out of the Bible.

1101
01:38:25,680 --> 01:38:30,119
But it was in the Bible for
over five hundred years and it was

1102
01:38:30,159 --> 01:38:35,800
taken out. It's quoting in Jude
chapter of Revelation. Say it was in

1103
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:42,760
certain can you mute when it was
in certain churches in their copies? But

1104
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:47,680
yes, there's not one Bible until
about the further or sixth century, probably

1105
01:38:47,720 --> 01:38:51,159
not anymore. Yeah, no,
I'm saying that there is. You said

1106
01:38:51,159 --> 01:38:54,479
that it was taken out of the
Bible. It wasn't taken out of the

1107
01:38:54,479 --> 01:39:00,600
Bible. Well, I believe like
in the Council of I see it in

1108
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:03,640
the Catholic Church take certain books out
of the Bible. No, they did

1109
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:06,279
not, and I see it to
not determine the book of the Bible.

1110
01:39:09,039 --> 01:39:12,600
Well do you know who did?
Yeah, it's the Council of Tlo,

1111
01:39:13,319 --> 01:39:16,239
which is many centuries later, and
that's affirmed of the sixth and seven dicumentical

1112
01:39:16,279 --> 01:39:20,800
councils. Do you uh, do
you believe like the Book of Enoch was

1113
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:28,479
ever in the Bible? It was
in certain traditions. Sorry, man,

1114
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:35,359
it's there's too much feedback. We
gotta we gotta go, so punished something.

1115
01:39:35,399 --> 01:39:51,840
What's up, dude? And then
they drop off interesting. Joseph al

1116
01:39:53,000 --> 01:40:00,239
Kouri, Joseph Alchemy, what's up, Joseph? I'm mute. Uh,

1117
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:09,159
Joseph, do you want to talk? Yes? Yes, hi, j

1118
01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:13,720
yes, sir, yes, Joseph
Kouri. That's it's an Arabic name.

1119
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:18,079
It's I was making a joke,
right, So obviously AlCH is not alchemy.

1120
01:40:18,079 --> 01:40:23,239
It was a joke. No,
that's that's fine. I jointed late.

1121
01:40:23,319 --> 01:40:27,479
I'm not sure whether my question is
going to be irrelevant. I'm wondering

1122
01:40:28,119 --> 01:40:35,479
about the Daniel seven where where you
have you can say, let's say,

1123
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:43,119
is speaking broadly as as it you
have two divine hypostases. You have someone

1124
01:40:43,159 --> 01:40:46,520
called it the what about it?
Yes, and the Son of Man.

1125
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:53,199
I'm wondering, uh I, I
agree with the with your approach that all

1126
01:40:53,279 --> 01:40:58,119
the divine manifestations of the Old Testament
are that of the pre incarrent hypostasis of

1127
01:40:58,119 --> 01:41:06,640
the Sun and the Stune here is
manifesting himself, and usually broadly speaking,

1128
01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:12,479
it's because im correctly, if I'm
wrong, is it that because the Father

1129
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:17,000
will not manifest himself and only the
Son takes that kind of role. And

1130
01:41:17,199 --> 01:41:21,720
if that is the case, is
there going to be some sort of tension

1131
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:28,640
with Daniel seven if we take that
approach as somehow axiomatic, because you have

1132
01:41:29,239 --> 01:41:31,640
Ancient of days and the Son of
Man approaching the Ancient of days and standing

1133
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:35,760
before him. Yeah. So this
is why in the Orthodox iconography of this

1134
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:41,840
event, the image of Christ looks
like an old Christ and that's because in

1135
01:41:42,079 --> 01:41:45,279
Ezekiel one in ten and in Revelation
one and two, the description of Christ

1136
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:50,000
is having white hair and a radiant
appearance, same as the Ancient of Days.

1137
01:41:50,039 --> 01:41:54,039
So what that means is that,
as Jesus says, is the only

1138
01:41:54,199 --> 01:41:59,079
image and icon of the Father is
the Son. So there's two hypostasies there,

1139
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:02,439
but we don't have an image of
the hypostasis of the Father because he

1140
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:06,079
has no image other than the Son. So that's why the icronography of the

1141
01:42:06,119 --> 01:42:11,840
Ancient of Days pictures him that way. Okay, So in this case,

1142
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:15,840
the figure of son of Man is
gonna be a What is the identity of

1143
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:21,319
that figure in this case Jesus.
It's the ascension. Jesus is ascending,

1144
01:42:21,359 --> 01:42:26,680
and this is called the session where
he comes to the throne of God and

1145
01:42:26,920 --> 01:42:30,399
is given authority over every tribe,
tongue in nation. It's what's described in

1146
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:33,800
the Book of Revelation when he comes
before I mean, it's the same description

1147
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:38,039
in the Book of Revelation as well
after the ascension. So it's it's the

1148
01:42:38,119 --> 01:42:41,800
son of Man. Who else would
be the son of Man? So in

1149
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,520
this case, in Dan seven,
both hypostats belonged to the hypoesis of the

1150
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:50,359
Son. Now there's no image of
the Father there. It's the Father speaking,

1151
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:55,319
just like when the Father speaks,
this is my beloved son. There's

1152
01:42:55,359 --> 01:43:00,000
no image of the hypostasis. An
old man didn't appear to baptize Jesus.

1153
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:05,279
A voice is heard, right,
and so that in our theology, just

1154
01:43:05,359 --> 01:43:09,279
like we never see the hypostasi as
the Holy Spirit, we see an energetic

1155
01:43:09,359 --> 01:43:14,920
manifestation proper to that person. So
there's an energetic manifestation of the Father granting

1156
01:43:15,039 --> 01:43:18,119
to the Son all authority, power
and dominion. There's an energetic manifestation of

1157
01:43:18,199 --> 01:43:23,640
the Holy Spirit as a dove and
as tongues of fire. But those are

1158
01:43:23,680 --> 01:43:27,119
not the persons of the Holy Spirit
or the Father, because we never have

1159
01:43:27,239 --> 01:43:34,600
a direct hypostatic image of either of
those persons or energetic manifestations of them,

1160
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:40,479
just like the voice. So there's
two hypostases present. Doesn't mean there's an

1161
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:45,920
image or a visible form of the
Father m So it's it's more of an

1162
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:53,760
as it's a physical description, but
in essence it's more of an audible manifestation.

1163
01:43:54,119 --> 01:43:58,159
Is that's like a more of a
that's what we see in the baptism

1164
01:43:58,239 --> 01:44:00,680
of Christ. Right, nobody sees
an old man in the sky, right,

1165
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:04,359
they hear a voice. Right.
And you notice Jesus says there was

1166
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:08,279
no No one has seen the Father
at any time. Right. And when

1167
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:14,680
Moses talks about Mount Sinai, he
says, you saw in a form,

1168
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:17,880
but you heard the voice. Jesus
is the visible manifestation. He is the

1169
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:25,680
voice. Yes, my, my, my, My thinking is when we

1170
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:29,399
take that back in the Old Testament, the figure of the insane of this

1171
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:35,239
in this case the physical description is
therefore is it going to be for literary

1172
01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:41,800
purposes, But the essence of the
manifestation is more of an audible and tandem

1173
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:45,760
with the with the scene of the
transfiguration and the baptism in this case,

1174
01:44:48,359 --> 01:45:01,880
let me let me pull it up
here. Yeah, so again like,

1175
01:45:03,039 --> 01:45:18,439
let me find an image of you
have to we have to find a Yeah,

1176
01:45:19,399 --> 01:45:29,199
hopefully that's not like a weird heterodox
So the way that's describing the ancient

1177
01:45:29,239 --> 01:45:32,319
of days here, right, his
hair was a garment white of snow,

1178
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:40,479
right, fiery flame of fire.
Right. That image is the way that

1179
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:45,279
Christ is described in Revelation one and
two, and also and also in Ezekiel

1180
01:45:46,399 --> 01:45:53,039
uh. And that's depicting the hypostasis
of the son as the icon of the

1181
01:45:53,159 --> 01:45:59,199
Father. Right, it's not it's
it's the Father in verses nine and ten,

1182
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:04,680
right, giving the dominion and the
power to the son of Man right

1183
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:10,960
when he ascends. But in our
theology, the only image of the ancient

1184
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:16,560
of days is the son of Man. Does that make sense? I understand

1185
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:20,760
which which you're saying. But but
in this case, by the way,

1186
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:25,159
bro, I'm an orphoist like you. But this this text is one of

1187
01:46:25,199 --> 01:46:28,640
the one of the one of the
texts that that's still in a sense I'm

1188
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:32,960
I'm still trying to innocence, come
up, come with terms with it,

1189
01:46:33,039 --> 01:46:40,119
because because when when I read the
text, it seems that you have uh.

1190
01:46:40,399 --> 01:46:45,359
Like as as we both agree,
there's two divine manifestations, two divine

1191
01:46:45,399 --> 01:46:48,680
figures. But in this case,
yeah, but that first, that first

1192
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:55,239
divine figure is the image of Christ. So it's not to Christ. It's

1193
01:46:55,359 --> 01:47:00,199
the Father as the image of Christ
speaking to the son of man Christ.

1194
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:04,079
Does that make sense? It's not
two persons, it's not to Jesus.

1195
01:47:04,159 --> 01:47:09,640
Is it's the only legitimate image of
Jesus. It's a it's a in other

1196
01:47:09,680 --> 01:47:13,319
words, it's what you said originally, Yes, it's it's a figurative description

1197
01:47:14,039 --> 01:47:17,199
outside of time and space. That
is, the person of the Father as

1198
01:47:17,279 --> 01:47:21,279
the image of the Son speaking to
one like the Son of Man Christ.

1199
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:30,720
Does that make sense? Oh so
yeah, yeah, so so the okay,

1200
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:34,600
it's not too Jesus is it's the
Ancient of Days, the Father,

1201
01:47:35,359 --> 01:47:45,319
but he's only accurately described through the
imagery of the Son, right, Okay,

1202
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:46,880
I need, I need, I
need to think more about what you

1203
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:50,039
say. So this is if you
want the explanation of this. The Icon

1204
01:47:50,199 --> 01:47:55,600
Council, the Moscow Icon Council,
deals with this issue and it's a it's

1205
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:59,720
called the Ancient of Days dispute.
There's a big dispute at the council over

1206
01:48:00,399 --> 01:48:02,359
who the Ancient of Days is right. And there were some people who said,

1207
01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:05,039
well, the Ancient of Days has
to be Jesus and the Son of

1208
01:48:05,119 --> 01:48:10,279
Man somebody else. But then the
passage where it says one like the Son

1209
01:48:10,359 --> 01:48:14,199
of Man comes to the Ancient of
Days and is given dominion. That's mirrored

1210
01:48:14,239 --> 01:48:17,239
in the Book of Revelation, where
it's clearly Christ being given dominion over all

1211
01:48:17,279 --> 01:48:21,960
the tribe songs and nations. So
the the identity of the Ancient of Days

1212
01:48:23,199 --> 01:48:27,239
is the Father. And I think
Saint Nicodemus or somebody points this out and

1213
01:48:28,039 --> 01:48:35,079
notes that it's it's the only accurate
descriptions of the Father are the images of

1214
01:48:35,159 --> 01:48:39,800
the Son. But that doesn't mean
that doesn't mean that it's not the Father

1215
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:45,680
in the first description. Does that
make sense? It's the Father? So

1216
01:48:46,199 --> 01:48:51,880
okay, I'm black, I'm confused
again. So the Ancient of Days in

1217
01:48:53,000 --> 01:48:58,960
Dan sivin, if we take say
the try to come with, it's the

1218
01:48:59,079 --> 01:49:02,439
Father. So verse nine and ten
is the Father. Okay, Now that

1219
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:11,119
same listen, the descriptions of the
Father in that passage are all descriptors elsewhere

1220
01:49:11,199 --> 01:49:15,520
in the Bible and Ezekiel and Revelation
that are referencing the Son. Okay.

1221
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:20,039
So what that means is not that
there's two Jesuses. It means that the

1222
01:49:20,159 --> 01:49:27,560
description of Ancient of Days has similar
deified transfigured imagery of Jesus, because Jesus

1223
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:34,079
is the only icon of the Father
in this case, the Son of Man

1224
01:49:34,239 --> 01:49:41,039
is going to be like the prophetic
vision about the incarnation in this case that

1225
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:46,159
it's the ascension, the ascension the
Okay. So listen. In the Book

1226
01:49:46,199 --> 01:49:51,800
of Revelation. Revelation is describing after
Jesus has ascended and he's in heaven incarnate.

1227
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:56,560
Yes, yeah, that's the Son
of Man, and it says that

1228
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:00,319
he is given dominion over all tribes
on nations. That's the very thing that

1229
01:50:00,399 --> 01:50:04,960
Daniel seven is describing. Okay.
So Daniel seven verses thirteen and fourteen,

1230
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:09,439
I behold one like the Son of
Man coming in the clouds of the heaven,

1231
01:50:09,479 --> 01:50:12,600
and he came to the Ancient of
Days. He brought him and was

1232
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:15,479
given to him glory, dominion,
and a kingdom. His king will not

1233
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:18,680
pass away. This is the same
text in the Book of Revelation describing Jesus's

1234
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:27,279
ascension. Hmm, okay, gotcha. So it's Jesus coming to the Ancient

1235
01:50:27,279 --> 01:50:31,479
of days, the Father in heaven
after his ascension. But the imagery of

1236
01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:40,039
the Father is only going to use
Christic imagery because there's no other legitimate icon

1237
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:43,840
of the Father but the son.
So it's not too Jesus'. It's the

1238
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:50,239
Father with Christic imagery and symbolism,
presenting and granting the kingdom to the son.

1239
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:57,640
It's not to Jesus'. It's just
using symbols and imagery that John and

1240
01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:01,560
Ezekiel see about the resurrect the glorified
Christ. Does that make sense or not?

1241
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:06,640
You're still confused? Yeah? Yeah, partially, I would say to

1242
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:11,600
be to be in complete transparency with
you. What what's confused? Well,

1243
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:15,199
hold on, let's slow down.
What's confusing? Yeah, because I'm still

1244
01:51:15,319 --> 01:51:18,520
if if and I agree with you
the the descriptions that we have in the

1245
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:23,359
issue of the Ancient of Days and
down seven are applied in the New Testament

1246
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:28,880
of on Jesus. But but I'm
still if if so, as you said

1247
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:34,560
in down seven versus the verse nine, when when the first appearance it's the

1248
01:51:34,680 --> 01:51:40,199
father Daniel nine, Daniel seven nine
is the father, Yes, that's that's

1249
01:51:40,279 --> 01:51:43,520
that's the father. And when when
when the son of Man is presented before

1250
01:51:43,600 --> 01:51:46,399
the issue of Days, that's that's
gonna be. That's that's a reference to

1251
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:50,079
the ascension of Jesus Christ to the
to the highest seven. Yeah, because

1252
01:51:50,079 --> 01:51:56,199
it's in the when he's so so. But but but my, my,

1253
01:51:56,560 --> 01:52:01,560
my, in my mind, and
still in this case, I still have

1254
01:52:01,800 --> 01:52:10,079
to listen the symbol and imagery of
Jesus as the white hair glorified being that's

1255
01:52:10,119 --> 01:52:15,560
applied to the Father does not mean
there's too Jesuses. No, I agree

1256
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:17,840
with you, like I'm ruling this
out. I'm ruling the two Jesus is

1257
01:52:18,079 --> 01:52:24,399
uh, let's say, right,
so what so what's unclear? My my,

1258
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:29,640
my, my, my? My
issue is still if in verse nine

1259
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:33,479
we have the engine of days and
in this case the angine of days here

1260
01:52:34,039 --> 01:52:40,760
strictly with verse nine, is that
a reference not physically the physical description,

1261
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:45,319
but the figure himself is a reference
to the hyposis of the Father. And

1262
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:48,479
directly through the image of the Sun. Is that is that? Yes?

1263
01:52:49,079 --> 01:52:54,039
And yeah? Correct? And indirectly
there is There is a good way to

1264
01:52:54,119 --> 01:52:58,600
put it, because sometimes in the
nuances of the icon dispute, the question

1265
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:02,600
arises, well, if it's not
the person of the Father, what's being

1266
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:05,880
signified, what's being signified as the
idea of the Father, or it's the

1267
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:12,159
energetic manifestation that points to the Father. So there's never a direct incarnation or

1268
01:53:12,279 --> 01:53:15,239
manifestation of the person of the Father
or of the person the Holy Spirit,

1269
01:53:15,640 --> 01:53:21,039
then what is it? It's the
energetic manifestation proper to the person of the

1270
01:53:21,119 --> 01:53:25,680
Father. Now I know the energies
signify nature, but they come and they

1271
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:30,439
appear hypostatically, in hypostatic, so
in the mode of the persons that have

1272
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:35,479
them. So it's the person of
the Father manifesting the energy is proper to

1273
01:53:35,680 --> 01:53:41,239
him to signify him, to point
to him. But it's not his hypostasis

1274
01:53:41,279 --> 01:53:45,159
that's being incarnated or imaged here.
It's indirect, as you said, it's

1275
01:53:45,199 --> 01:53:46,760
a good way to put it.
So that's why he uses the imagery of

1276
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:49,920
the Son to point to the Father. That's why Jesus says, if you've

1277
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:56,119
seen me, you've seen the Father. No man has seen the Father at

1278
01:53:56,119 --> 01:54:01,640
any time. Jesus says, yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for that,

1279
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:04,600
appreciate it. So there's not two
ancient of days. There's not two,

1280
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:08,439
Jesus says. There's one ancient of
days here that is the Father,

1281
01:54:08,479 --> 01:54:14,039
as Saint Nicodemus says. But the
imagery that's used to signify and point out

1282
01:54:14,119 --> 01:54:17,760
the idea of the Father is imagery
that is appropriate to the glorified Christ.

1283
01:54:18,359 --> 01:54:23,920
Because in Ezekiel one and Ezekiel ten, the form of God and the glory

1284
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:28,239
of God that appears is one like
the son of Man and one that rides

1285
01:54:28,319 --> 01:54:30,319
the chariot. He is the image
of the Father, the image of the

1286
01:54:30,399 --> 01:54:36,439
Invisible God. Yeah, yeah,
and he said which council goes more into

1287
01:54:36,479 --> 01:54:42,479
details about this. You see the
Moscow Icon Council goes super deep into this.

1288
01:54:42,760 --> 01:54:45,680
Read the Lasky Aspensky book, Volume
two, Theology of the Icon Volume

1289
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:51,920
two goes into great detail about just
this. Questions counciliate that, Yeah,

1290
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:55,239
those are really good questions. And
I'm not trying to be a you know,

1291
01:54:56,720 --> 01:54:59,199
impatient with you. It's it's good. It's a it's good questions.

1292
01:54:59,199 --> 01:55:01,079
It's a little confusing. First,
Houston is back. What's up, Houston.

1293
01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:09,279
Let's see try hitting a mute Matt
Belcher says, five dollars. What's

1294
01:55:09,319 --> 01:55:13,159
the best argument for proudinance process about
the second Commandment? Yeah? I link

1295
01:55:13,239 --> 01:55:16,600
the icon article, Matt Belcher,
How do I call in? If you

1296
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:21,239
guys want to call in, it's
through the ex Twitter link there in the

1297
01:55:21,319 --> 01:55:30,039
chat in the show description, go
ahead of Houston. What's up? Yes,

1298
01:55:30,079 --> 01:55:39,199
sir? Yeah, I can hear
you. Man. What's up,

1299
01:55:45,920 --> 01:55:54,079
Dimitri? What's up? Demetros Heay? What's up? Yes, sir?

1300
01:55:55,359 --> 01:55:59,159
How's it going, Buddy good?
What's on your mind? All right?

1301
01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:05,800
Phillyokuay? Ready So if we go
to Ephesians two, and Ephesians two says

1302
01:56:06,560 --> 01:56:12,720
grayce and peace be onto you from
the Father of our God and the son

1303
01:56:12,960 --> 01:56:18,159
Jesus Christ. Passages like this can
be used to say, look the Holy

1304
01:56:18,359 --> 01:56:25,640
where the grays in peace is the
Holy Spirit. People that are not on

1305
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:30,039
the Orthodox side of the Philioka argument
to point to this and say, you

1306
01:56:30,119 --> 01:56:34,640
know here it is. Now that
being said, my ultimate question is has

1307
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:41,880
this theological argument ultimately become irrelevant?
And no, and this passage has nothing

1308
01:56:41,920 --> 01:56:45,800
to do with the philo. So
well, here's the second thing that and

1309
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:50,880
then I want to hear your thoughts. Okay, another argument will has been

1310
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:56,119
made, like there was a misunderstanding
at the Council of Florence, for example,

1311
01:56:57,279 --> 01:56:59,880
they would say the Orthodox were thinking
about the structure of the god Head

1312
01:57:00,319 --> 01:57:04,520
as far as as Philly, sure, and the Catholics were thinking too.

1313
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:09,800
As how it translates down to the
man in the street, which this passage

1314
01:57:10,039 --> 01:57:14,279
could again be used to support that
your thoughts okay, So what you're describing

1315
01:57:14,399 --> 01:57:19,079
is called economia. So the first
confusion about if the Ephesian's passage is about

1316
01:57:19,159 --> 01:57:25,520
the economia, so nobody, nobody
denies Orthodox or Roman Catholic that Jesus sends

1317
01:57:25,960 --> 01:57:30,560
the Spirit into time and space through
being incarnate. Okay, clearly he says,

1318
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:33,760
I will send you the Holy Spirit
as the comforter he breathes on them.

1319
01:57:34,199 --> 01:57:39,720
The Spirit comes at Pentecost and so
forth. The question is the hypostatic

1320
01:57:39,880 --> 01:57:43,720
origin of the person of the Holy
Spirit, And the Council of Florence clearly

1321
01:57:44,079 --> 01:57:48,319
does designates that, citing the counts
of Lions and citing Saint Augustine before him,

1322
01:57:48,439 --> 01:57:56,439
that them that there's a double eternal
personal procession from the Father and the

1323
01:57:56,520 --> 01:57:59,520
Son is from a single principle.
So that's what the Orthodox disagree with,

1324
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:02,800
because the only single principle in the
Godhead is the person of the Father and

1325
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:09,960
by extension, the single divine nature
that he communicates. Gotcha. So that

1326
01:58:10,119 --> 01:58:15,520
way, you can't say that the
Holy Spirit proceeds from this from the son,

1327
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:19,399
because the hypostatus already exists in the
son. Well, if the Father

1328
01:58:20,039 --> 01:58:27,000
generates a son whole and entire,
then the Father must also aspirate the Spirit

1329
01:58:27,079 --> 01:58:30,680
whole and entire, because there's nothing
there's no splitting, there's no parts,

1330
01:58:30,119 --> 01:58:34,079
so there's nothing that the son could
contribute to the procession of the Spirit that

1331
01:58:34,439 --> 01:58:40,159
the Father doesn't do right, So
it's whole and entire. There can't be

1332
01:58:40,199 --> 01:58:45,000
a composite procession here. So,
and there's no principle of unity that two

1333
01:58:45,079 --> 01:58:50,000
persons share as a father son principle
of the spirit that would then degrade the

1334
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:56,319
divine nature that the Holy Spirit has. So there's no property of causation that

1335
01:58:56,439 --> 01:59:01,239
father and son have that the spirit
lacks. Causation is precisely the hypocidic property

1336
01:59:01,319 --> 01:59:05,279
of the father. So now if
you give the father's hypersached property to the

1337
01:59:05,359 --> 01:59:12,000
son, you have a father son, which is a diead as Saint Photia

1338
01:59:12,039 --> 01:59:15,199
says. All right, I'm gonna
have to go dict this a little bit

1339
01:59:15,279 --> 01:59:18,079
more, but I appreciate it.
Yeah, we have really we have a

1340
01:59:18,119 --> 01:59:25,479
three hour talk on the Phillyoak away
from the Sashchensky book. Houston, you

1341
01:59:25,520 --> 01:59:35,840
want to try again? Hey,
Hey, what's up? Hey? I

1342
01:59:35,920 --> 01:59:42,479
had a question about Orthodox theology.
So I'm a Protestant from the My background

1343
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:45,039
is the Church of Christ. If
you're familiar with them, I am.

1344
01:59:46,039 --> 01:59:49,920
Yeah, So I'm coming out of
the Church of Christ, and you know,

1345
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:54,840
I've been listening to you for a
while but okay, they are Credo

1346
01:59:54,960 --> 01:59:58,399
Baptist, you know, and so
they you know, they don't baptize babies,

1347
01:59:58,439 --> 02:00:02,479
and but they also believe in baptismal
regeneration, although they wouldn't they wouldn't

1348
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:08,960
use that term. I don't think. So infant baptism makes sense to me,

1349
02:00:09,359 --> 02:00:15,560
and baptism or regeneration makes sense to
me. But also with Orthodox teaching,

1350
02:00:15,359 --> 02:00:20,640
would you say it's accurate? My
understanding is that infants are born without

1351
02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:27,159
the guilt of that. So my
understanding was like for Catholics, I always

1352
02:00:27,199 --> 02:00:30,000
thought, well, they baptized babies
because they want to get rid of original

1353
02:00:30,039 --> 02:00:33,960
sin. And so with Orthodox theology, you know, you don't have original

1354
02:00:34,039 --> 02:00:40,960
sin like Catholics do. So what's
the reasoning for baptizing infants with an Orthodoxy?

1355
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:45,239
Because infants have the effects of original
sin, not the guilt of original

1356
02:00:45,319 --> 02:00:51,000
sin. So they still are deprived
of grace. So the nature that they

1357
02:00:51,079 --> 02:00:57,359
have is good, but they're not
lack They're lacking the uncreated grace and so

1358
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:00,039
that's the status of all of us. So that's why we baptize, is

1359
02:01:00,079 --> 02:01:04,640
to bring them into the kingdom.
It doesn't mean that they are guilty of

1360
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:11,880
actual sins. This is why both
Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology distinguishes what's called

1361
02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:16,119
original sin from actual sin. Actual
sin sin strictly speaking, is only something

1362
02:01:16,159 --> 02:01:21,680
that you can commit as an individual
choice by will. So there's no state

1363
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:27,479
of sin, there's no state of
guilt. It's an action of the will.

1364
02:01:28,159 --> 02:01:31,439
Even according to James, James says
that the desires that we have themselves

1365
02:01:31,479 --> 02:01:35,039
are not sin. He says,
but desire when it's given birth. Desire

1366
02:01:35,079 --> 02:01:39,520
when it's consentative, gives birth to
sin. So when you go against God's

1367
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:42,600
law is the sin. It's an
action of will, it's not a state

1368
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:47,199
of being. So Roman Catholic theology
has over many centuries tempered its view,

1369
02:01:47,439 --> 02:01:51,760
tempered its Augustinianism, to where nowadays
in the Roman Catholic Church you don't even

1370
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:55,760
have to believe in infant limbo.
You can discard it or believe it if

1371
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:59,159
you want to. It's made optional
via the Holy Office. A few years

1372
02:01:59,159 --> 02:02:01,359
ago when I think Rath Singer or
somebody put out that document saying that you

1373
02:02:01,399 --> 02:02:06,119
don't have to believe in limbo.
So that's the key thing is to just

1374
02:02:08,319 --> 02:02:15,079
distinguish original guilt from original sin.
Most Roman Catholics agree with Orthodox on that

1375
02:02:15,159 --> 02:02:19,079
specific point, but I think that
a lot of times Roman Catholics still think

1376
02:02:19,159 --> 02:02:23,840
of it in the terms of original
guilt because they talk about it like it's

1377
02:02:23,880 --> 02:02:27,760
a stain. I mean, a
stain is something has substantial existence, and

1378
02:02:28,359 --> 02:02:31,600
something that's a deprivation of grace is
not a stain. So it's bad and

1379
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:36,119
analogies that they use. Right,
So the argument that you know, my

1380
02:02:36,239 --> 02:02:41,920
Church of Christ friends will use is
infants do not commit sin. You know,

1381
02:02:41,960 --> 02:02:45,720
they're not guilty of sin, and
therefore they don't need baptism, they

1382
02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:48,279
don't need to experience. Yeah,
but baptism is not salvation, and baptism

1383
02:02:48,359 --> 02:02:55,119
are not just a situation like all
Protestants think of. Yeah, changing your

1384
02:02:55,319 --> 02:03:00,479
status of legal status, right,
Okay, that's the mistakes an ongoing process,

1385
02:03:00,640 --> 02:03:02,239
that's why. Yeah, well it's
not just an ongoing process. It's

1386
02:03:02,239 --> 02:03:08,119
also regaining the Holy Spirit. So
the ongoing process has as its goal the

1387
02:03:08,359 --> 02:03:12,720
attaining of the life of the Holy
Spirit, uncreated life, and no Protestant

1388
02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:17,000
teaches that true. Yeah, well
they'll say we teach the No, you

1389
02:03:17,039 --> 02:03:20,640
don't teach the Orthodox view of participating
in uncreated grace. Almost every Protestant teaches

1390
02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:27,359
the form of creative grace. Yeah, what's uh, I'm not really looked

1391
02:03:27,399 --> 02:03:30,600
into the I've heard you talk about
the you know, uncreated grace versus created

1392
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:33,079
grace, and a lot of it's
going over my head, I'll be honest.

1393
02:03:33,199 --> 02:03:40,359
So what what should I read to
better understand that? Well, I

1394
02:03:40,399 --> 02:03:43,119
mean, as you get into Orthodox
theology, you know, if you read,

1395
02:03:43,199 --> 02:03:46,199
uh, Lasky has a great book, it's the It's not a mystical

1396
02:03:46,279 --> 02:03:48,159
theology, it's the other one.
I think it's a vision of God.

1397
02:03:48,239 --> 02:03:57,239
There's multiple chapters on grace being uncreated
in that that are good. But uh,

1398
02:03:58,079 --> 02:04:00,840
you know, really it's just the
the sentergy distinction. It's it's the

1399
02:04:00,840 --> 02:04:06,399
same they read the debate between Polla, Moss and Barley might dollog between Orthodox

1400
02:04:06,439 --> 02:04:11,800
and Barley Mighte because the whole debate, the debate shifts away from essence inergy

1401
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:16,199
distinction into what do we participate in? So either we participate in another creature,

1402
02:04:16,239 --> 02:04:19,960
which is the Roman Catholic position still
to this day, or we participate

1403
02:04:20,039 --> 02:04:24,640
in an uncreated reality distinct from God's
essence, which means there has to be

1404
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:28,720
an essenceniory distinction. So yeah,
all right, yeah, good questions.

1405
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:32,840
And uh, I was joking when
I said that, I just saw a

1406
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:36,039
little face with a beard, so
you don't literally look like a barrow,

1407
02:04:36,159 --> 02:04:41,680
So don't take that personal. It's
just being silly. Flame. Two.

1408
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:46,239
What's up? By the way,
a lot of people in the chat shout

1409
02:04:46,239 --> 02:04:48,560
out to you guys. We got
up to nine hundred, almost one thousand,

1410
02:04:48,600 --> 02:04:51,039
and then of course every time I
get every time I get close to

1411
02:04:51,079 --> 02:04:56,279
a thousand, it suddenly YouTube has
an error that there's not enough data and

1412
02:04:56,359 --> 02:04:59,800
it drops down to seven hundred.
But that's okay. If you guys want

1413
02:04:59,840 --> 02:05:03,640
to you hop on. The link
to call in is in the show description

1414
02:05:03,760 --> 02:05:08,279
there. It's the ex link Twitter
link you hop on when you request to

1415
02:05:08,319 --> 02:05:15,560
speak, you will be muted.
Unmute yourself. Hello, Hey, what's

1416
02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:20,159
up? So I've quite I kind
of learned a lot from our last conversation,

1417
02:05:20,439 --> 02:05:24,600
and I was thinking, like,
what what was our last conversation?

1418
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:28,279
Though it was a lot of morality
and figuring out what the good was and

1419
02:05:28,399 --> 02:05:32,800
things like that, and what I
was wondering is how can we truly figuring

1420
02:05:32,800 --> 02:05:36,560
out what's true? Because I thought
about this for a long time, and

1421
02:05:36,640 --> 02:05:42,319
I thought that, like, we
can't figure things out like what comes of

1422
02:05:42,359 --> 02:05:45,640
spirituality. We can't figure things out
empirically because let's say somebody had a vision

1423
02:05:46,239 --> 02:05:50,520
and they saw an angel. Let's
say they can't know if that was their

1424
02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:55,000
mind making it up or if it
was a demon or whatever. So we'll

1425
02:05:55,000 --> 02:06:00,399
start with divine revelation. So what's
the problem there? Well, okay,

1426
02:06:00,479 --> 02:06:03,119
with the Bible, how do you
know it was from God? Well,

1427
02:06:03,119 --> 02:06:05,880
there's a lot of different ways that
I might go about that. I could

1428
02:06:06,159 --> 02:06:11,960
take a philosophical approach and consider the
transcendental argument and the type of theism that's

1429
02:06:11,960 --> 02:06:15,199
presented in the Bible, and what's
unique about that theism. Or I could

1430
02:06:15,239 --> 02:06:18,439
look at say Messianic prophecies dozens of
them in the Old Testament, and how

1431
02:06:18,479 --> 02:06:23,800
they're fulfilled as an attestation to divine
inspiration. Those are some of the ways.

1432
02:06:26,000 --> 02:06:30,119
Yeah, but even in relation to
prophecies, how do you know it

1433
02:06:30,319 --> 02:06:36,039
wasn't How do you know it wasn't
some hyper dimensional beings or humans from the

1434
02:06:36,159 --> 02:06:41,760
future, Like, how do you
know it was actually God? Hyperdimension Why

1435
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:47,760
would hyperdimensional beings from the future teach
that Christ is that they might I mean

1436
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:54,399
I don't know. No, you're
misunderstanding. So reading those prophecies gives you

1437
02:06:54,520 --> 02:06:58,520
specific dates about a certain type of
religion and a certain type of Messiah,

1438
02:06:58,520 --> 02:07:01,159
a certain type of Jesus born point
at this time, and the religion that

1439
02:07:01,279 --> 02:07:03,680
he founds as part of those prophecies. So, in other words, the

1440
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:10,439
church is also included in the prophecies. So why would why would the church

1441
02:07:11,079 --> 02:07:15,800
teach the theology that I'm talking about
if ultimately, secretly it was interdimensional being

1442
02:07:15,880 --> 02:07:19,640
there's no reason to believe in inter
dimensional beings from that, There isn't,

1443
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:25,640
But there's no way to prove that
it was actually from God. Why wouldn't

1444
02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:30,840
the fulfilled prophecies be an attestation to
the veracity of the Bible. Well,

1445
02:07:31,159 --> 02:07:38,520
because it's ultimately still guessing, isn't
it. Why would it be guessing and

1446
02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:44,000
it would still be guesssing because you're
still inferring from something. So, for

1447
02:07:44,119 --> 02:07:48,199
example, in your world view,
don't you think it's impossible that aliens would

1448
02:07:48,199 --> 02:07:56,399
exist? Right, it's not logically
impossible, But I've not seen any evidence

1449
02:07:56,520 --> 02:08:01,279
or the reason to believe in aliens. So if an alien appeared to you

1450
02:08:01,319 --> 02:08:03,199
and you're able to touch it,
basically, like Thomas, you would believe

1451
02:08:03,279 --> 02:08:09,199
it exists. Are you equating Jesus's
resurrection to aliens? Do you understand that

1452
02:08:09,279 --> 02:08:13,239
there's an entire thousands of pages of
books describing the meaning of the arrival of

1453
02:08:13,279 --> 02:08:18,439
the Messiah has nothing to do with
aliens soul? It would be absolutely nonsensical

1454
02:08:18,479 --> 02:08:22,680
to bring in aliens when you've got
you know, if you thout two thousand

1455
02:08:22,760 --> 02:08:28,159
years of prophetic literature and revelation describing
the specifics of the arrival of the Messiah

1456
02:08:28,199 --> 02:08:31,520
and then to say, well,
maybe it's aliens, there's no there's no

1457
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:41,560
reason to conclude aliens. Okay,
but even in like relation to these prophecies.

1458
02:08:41,840 --> 02:08:45,840
So, I mean, just for
one quick example, it'll be the

1459
02:08:45,960 --> 02:08:52,159
strongest example of these prophecies. Well, I mean there's just descriptions of when

1460
02:08:52,239 --> 02:08:54,960
and where Jesus would be born and
what he would do in his lifetime,

1461
02:08:54,079 --> 02:09:00,239
like Genesis forty nine or Daniel nine, or Psalm one ten or Psalm twenty

1462
02:09:00,319 --> 02:09:05,199
three or Isaiah six through eleven.
I mean, there's there's literally probably hundreds

1463
02:09:05,239 --> 02:09:09,119
of prophecies if you want to be
specific about it. Well, the location

1464
02:09:09,239 --> 02:09:13,439
of Jesus' birth was, like I
mean, it was talking about a tribe

1465
02:09:13,520 --> 02:09:16,840
Bethlehem, Afria. I don't even
I don't think you're even familiar with any

1466
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:20,840
of these prophecies of the Bible at
all. So how are you compliment How

1467
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:26,680
are you qualified to speak on what
it's talking about. It wasn't best time.

1468
02:09:26,760 --> 02:09:31,319
A tribe would not be bethlehemmer is
not a tribe. Do you know

1469
02:09:31,359 --> 02:09:33,600
anything about what you're critiquing? I
mean, if you want to make a

1470
02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:37,640
critique, you should know about it. Have you read the Bible? Yeah?

1471
02:09:37,319 --> 02:09:41,800
Really? Yeah, you've read the
Bible and you think Bethlehem is a

1472
02:09:41,880 --> 02:09:46,600
tribe. Well, Bethlehem Ashrata is
mentioned in the Old Testament. I believe

1473
02:09:46,640 --> 02:09:50,159
that was was it one of the
tribes of true though? I believe Bethlehem

1474
02:09:50,279 --> 02:09:56,840
is not a tribe. So you
don't know what you're talking about. You're

1475
02:09:56,880 --> 02:10:01,279
not familiar with any Messianic prophecies even
though you read the Bible, I don't

1476
02:10:01,319 --> 02:10:07,119
familiar. It was okay, like
what name one? Well, it was

1477
02:10:07,159 --> 02:10:11,880
said that the Messiah would common save
the world like us. Yeah, so

1478
02:10:11,960 --> 02:10:16,079
you're not exactly. So again,
people that come on and they don't they're

1479
02:10:16,119 --> 02:10:20,039
not familiar with this stuff, but
claim that they are claim that they know

1480
02:10:20,119 --> 02:10:22,359
this stuff. So again, if
you if you don't want to go the

1481
02:10:22,479 --> 02:10:26,720
route of knowing or looking at biblical
prophecies, then I would say the transcendental

1482
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:28,840
argument for God would be the next
philosophy. If you want to go into

1483
02:10:28,880 --> 02:10:33,840
the domain of skepticism, which is
what it sounded like. Yeah, okay,

1484
02:10:33,880 --> 02:10:37,720
then let's talk about the transcendental argument
and refuting skepticism philosophically. Layman,

1485
02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:43,680
what's that? Laymen? So I
don't know anything about the Bible, but

1486
02:10:43,720 --> 02:10:46,399
I'm gonna I'm gonna say, well, maybe it's aliens. Okay, but

1487
02:10:46,680 --> 02:10:50,119
if you had read the Bible,
there would be, you know, no

1488
02:10:50,359 --> 02:10:54,359
reason to think that it's sitting to
do with aliens. What's up? Man?

1489
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:05,840
Call me from Pakistani toilets? What's
up? Dude? Are you on

1490
02:11:05,960 --> 02:11:11,079
a child's playphone? Like? What
are you calling me? On? I

1491
02:11:11,119 --> 02:11:16,600
can't hear anything you're saying. I
can literally can't hear anything. Let's see,

1492
02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:39,840
Bob. What's up, Bob?
Yeah, elon. That's why I

1493
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:43,720
always tell people to unmute at the
beginning. You're supposed to know to unmute.

1494
02:11:48,479 --> 02:11:50,960
Okay, So Bob can't connect?
Come out and come back in when

1495
02:11:50,319 --> 02:11:52,960
when it does this, I don't
know why it does this. So if

1496
02:11:52,000 --> 02:11:56,039
you can't connect, come out and
come back in. Fresh tap? What's

1497
02:11:56,119 --> 02:11:58,640
up? Fresh tap? Guys,
guys want to remind you too to head

1498
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:01,279
on over to chalk dot com.
That is the show sponsor. I've got

1499
02:12:01,319 --> 02:12:05,279
a nice sexy adam gonna show you
here in a minute about chalk dot com

1500
02:12:05,399 --> 02:12:15,199
and boosting your testosterone through supplementation.
What's up man, Fresh Tap Pop Pop?

1501
02:12:18,920 --> 02:12:28,359
Are you there? You're on?
John Q? Taxpayer? What's up

1502
02:12:28,439 --> 02:12:33,800
man? We set it straight,
lay down the law and set a straight

1503
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:39,479
John Q. Taxpayer. Unmute yourself. Hey, how's it going? Hey?

1504
02:12:39,560 --> 02:12:43,279
What's up? Hey? I wanted
to ask you a question. I've

1505
02:12:43,319 --> 02:12:48,319
been just watching a little bit more
of a guy on YouTube, Michael Heiser.

1506
02:12:48,319 --> 02:12:52,279
He had an interesting view when it
comes to I don't know if you've

1507
02:12:52,279 --> 02:12:54,840
ever heard of divine council theology.
I was wondering if I could get your

1508
02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:58,079
opinion on it, if you've heard
of vote or not? Yeah? I

1509
02:12:58,159 --> 02:13:01,880
mean he before he passed away,
he was a subscriber to my website.

1510
02:13:01,319 --> 02:13:07,319
I read his materials twenty years ago. Yeah, from the Psalms, so

1511
02:13:07,600 --> 02:13:11,239
anyway, thank you for that.
I appreciate that question. Uh fresh,

1512
02:13:11,279 --> 02:13:13,720
tat do you want to talk or
not? I guess not remove you?

1513
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:18,279
Ricky, do you have a question? I'm excuse me. Do you have

1514
02:13:18,319 --> 02:13:22,880
a disagreement? Because today we're taking
people who disagree, so I'll bring you

1515
02:13:22,960 --> 02:13:46,000
on, but today it's disagreeers.
Got im mute? All right? TANGI

1516
02:13:48,279 --> 02:13:52,079
tangy t A n j I.
What's up, Tangy? We'll set it

1517
02:13:52,119 --> 02:13:58,319
straight. Hello, Hey, what's
up? So? I'm like a Southern

1518
02:13:58,399 --> 02:14:01,880
Baptist kind of I don't actually align
theologically. Well, I'm trying to look

1519
02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:05,920
into Orthodox. You know, I
have a few questions. Okay, I

1520
02:14:05,039 --> 02:14:09,199
know you've been getting a lot of
non into three years today, but I

1521
02:14:09,279 --> 02:14:11,279
didn't know one else that could ask
so, is that alright? If I

1522
02:14:11,319 --> 02:14:16,960
asked questions about what? So?
Do you think that non Orthodox Christians go

1523
02:14:18,039 --> 02:14:22,479
to help? I mean, we
don't make personal judgments on people's destiny because

1524
02:14:22,479 --> 02:14:26,520
we're not told that. But we
do tell people that they need to become

1525
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:30,920
Orthodox, because that's what we're told
to tell people. Okay, and then

1526
02:14:31,239 --> 02:14:37,479
what exactly is the Orthodox doctrine of
ancestral sin that everybody who descends from Adam

1527
02:14:37,520 --> 02:14:45,000
has the consequences of his sin,
namely the death and the inheritance of the

1528
02:14:45,079 --> 02:14:50,319
passions, but the consequences are not
themselves the sin. Sin is defined as

1529
02:14:50,399 --> 02:14:52,720
an action of the will against the
good, and so there is an age

1530
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:58,760
of accountability by which we do begin
to sin in terms of personal actual sin,

1531
02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:01,159
but that it's not the same thing
as original sin, and that's not

1532
02:15:01,279 --> 02:15:07,760
original guilt. So that's what we
reject. Okay, do you in the

1533
02:15:07,920 --> 02:15:11,600
orthodol church? Is confession and necessary
thing like confession to a priest? Absolutely?

1534
02:15:13,039 --> 02:15:18,399
How does that work? Exactly?
Because Jesus says that whoever when he

1535
02:15:18,439 --> 02:15:20,239
breathes on the apostles, he says, whoever sends you, they're remitted.

1536
02:15:20,239 --> 02:15:26,119
Whoever sends you retain, they retained. Okay, I like you. Yeah,

1537
02:15:26,159 --> 02:15:33,239
good questions, Yes, sir.
So dude in the chat bro thinks

1538
02:15:33,279 --> 02:15:35,640
he's the voice of regent. Do
you want to come on? And you're

1539
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:39,800
welcome to make your arguments. I
don't know if you're talking about me or

1540
02:15:41,479 --> 02:15:46,239
somebody else that was debating, but
you're welcome to come on and make your

1541
02:15:46,319 --> 02:15:50,239
arguments there. What was his name, far Han? Do you want to

1542
02:15:50,359 --> 02:15:54,119
come on far Han, You're welcome
to make your case, your argument.

1543
02:15:54,279 --> 02:16:05,239
So we got Laura, Laura,
what's up? Laura? Just I mute?

1544
02:16:09,279 --> 02:16:13,720
Are you talking about it about me? Just I'm muting? So I

1545
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:18,479
just want to honor you, mister
Dyer. I'm not a disenter, so

1546
02:16:18,720 --> 02:16:26,479
I may be inappropriate for requesting a
mic. But with the previous person's question

1547
02:16:26,720 --> 02:16:33,639
is not so simple as where it
says in Genesis chapter five, when is

1548
02:16:33,760 --> 02:16:45,719
talking about the genealogy of Adam,
that that that that Adam lived one hundred

1549
02:16:45,879 --> 02:16:50,239
So chapter five or three and Adam
lives. Do you have an objection or

1550
02:16:50,799 --> 02:16:54,920
do you have an objection or disagreement
or topic you want to get into,

1551
02:16:56,639 --> 02:17:01,120
Yes, sir, I just want
to say that that is a common thread

1552
02:17:01,719 --> 02:17:07,319
that people say that we are created
in God's image, But that was Adam

1553
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:13,559
specifically that was creating God's image,
and so in all human beings are created

1554
02:17:13,559 --> 02:17:20,799
in God's Image's right. But if
we go to Genesis chapter five, we're

1555
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:31,920
just talking about the genealogy of Adam. It says specifically that in verse four,

1556
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:35,680
in the days of Adam, after
he hadn't gotten set were eight hundred

1557
02:17:35,760 --> 02:17:43,639
years and maybe got sons and daughters, and and okay, wait, no,

1558
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:46,479
sorry, so verse three and Adam
lived one hundred and thirty years and

1559
02:17:46,559 --> 02:17:52,799
begat a son in his un likeness, And that was after he had sinned

1560
02:17:54,040 --> 02:18:03,079
in the garden. So therefore with
he begat a son in his unviteness,

1561
02:18:03,239 --> 02:18:11,520
after his image and called his things
said, would that not perpetuate the that

1562
02:18:11,799 --> 02:18:16,360
we are no longer creating God's image
but in the image underneath original sin?

1563
02:18:16,079 --> 02:18:22,799
No original sin is a deprivation,
not an image. In many texts describe

1564
02:18:22,840 --> 02:18:26,879
the fact that we made the image
of God even after the fall. So

1565
02:18:28,319 --> 02:18:30,680
again, thank you for that.
Not sure to be mean, that's the

1566
02:18:31,239 --> 02:18:33,719
the spirit of Phronsie have spoken,
freezing, what's up freezing? We're taking

1567
02:18:33,760 --> 02:18:45,920
disagreeers today. Appreciate your comments.
Pop pop got an unmute freezing. Hey,

1568
02:18:46,040 --> 02:18:48,639
how's it going, sir? Hey? I just had a quick question.

1569
02:18:50,440 --> 02:18:56,840
So, like at these ecumenical councils
set the side doctrine and refute heresy

1570
02:18:56,879 --> 02:19:00,879
and stuff like counts it on?
See how did they just side? Like

1571
02:19:01,120 --> 02:19:03,920
like what's chris? Is it all
based on scripture or like oral tradition or

1572
02:19:05,120 --> 02:19:07,280
like where are they mostly going on? Well, I mean they explain in

1573
02:19:07,360 --> 02:19:13,280
the councils the sources, and typically
the sources are kind of laid out in

1574
02:19:13,399 --> 02:19:18,799
a structure of the scriptures and divine
revelation through tradition and the arguments from the

1575
02:19:18,879 --> 02:19:22,239
church fathers that preceded them and the
councils that preceded them, and arguments from

1576
02:19:22,319 --> 02:19:26,559
reason. So that's typically the structure
they use. Okay, sweet, So

1577
02:19:26,639 --> 02:19:31,440
it's not just it's not just mostly
based on scripture. It's oral tradition and

1578
02:19:31,799 --> 02:19:39,440
other stuff as well. The first
most important tier is scripture and oral tradition,

1579
02:19:39,520 --> 02:19:41,840
and those things are linked. They
go together. They can't. You

1580
02:19:41,920 --> 02:19:46,200
can't separate the two because you can't
know what the scriptures are apart from tradition.

1581
02:19:48,360 --> 02:19:50,959
Sweet. All right, thank you
for that. I appreciate it.

1582
02:19:56,920 --> 02:19:58,360
Yeah. So a lot of times
prodises one's set up an either or like,

1583
02:19:58,440 --> 02:20:01,680
oh, it's easy, either you
follow the Bible or you follow the

1584
02:20:01,760 --> 02:20:07,120
traditions of man. So it's a
both and right. Ryan Harvey is in

1585
02:20:07,239 --> 02:20:11,200
the chat. He's got pictures of
him running and sprinting, so I hope

1586
02:20:11,239 --> 02:20:16,399
he doesn't run me down. I
will uh oh go for it. Set

1587
02:20:16,479 --> 02:20:22,440
me straight, my phys I says, of what nature are you taking in

1588
02:20:22,120 --> 02:20:31,120
the Christ? The uncreated energies?
As Cyril says, Okay, so yeah,

1589
02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:37,159
they would they would say though,
like like we're taking of Christ?

1590
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:43,639
So how is the uncreated energies Christ? Because every energy is in hypostatic,

1591
02:20:43,760 --> 02:20:46,440
It comes to us from the person
that has those that nature from which the

1592
02:20:46,559 --> 02:21:03,680
energy proceeds. Gotta run, Yelifornio, El California, he see what you

1593
02:21:03,719 --> 02:21:07,760
go for? Me? Bro,
you better hurry. There's a lot of

1594
02:21:07,879 --> 02:21:13,799
arguments being made. April. You
barely you could barely get on, Bro,

1595
02:21:15,479 --> 02:21:18,680
what kind of argument you got?
You gotta mute? El California.

1596
02:21:18,719 --> 02:21:30,440
I'm you man on you Bro,
El Muto, L California, I'm you

1597
02:21:35,520 --> 02:21:41,840
mock California, California. Hey,
what's up? Jay? What's going on?

1598
02:21:41,959 --> 02:21:43,799
Bro? Hey? Bro? I
left my wallet in Elsa, Gonda.

1599
02:21:45,280 --> 02:21:48,280
What's up? Okay? What's up? Man? Y'all? I wanted

1600
02:21:48,319 --> 02:21:52,559
to tell you Roman Catholics got valence
sacraments. What do you think about that?

1601
02:21:52,920 --> 02:21:58,639
Oh, Indie, Bro? Time
for me to go home. SmackDown?

1602
02:21:58,360 --> 02:22:01,399
What does it mean? I mean
quite valid? What does that mean?

1603
02:22:01,399 --> 02:22:05,000
Does that mean that the church,
the ortho, our church can decide

1604
02:22:05,360 --> 02:22:09,040
to accept the Roman Catholic priests and
through vesting. Okay, I don't have

1605
02:22:09,079 --> 02:22:11,959
a problem with that. Does that
mean that does that mean that the sacraments

1606
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:18,360
themselves are graceful outside of the church? How do you get that? Well?

1607
02:22:18,479 --> 02:22:20,399
I guess what I'm saying is like, let's say you have confession in

1608
02:22:20,440 --> 02:22:24,319
the Roman Catholic Church, if your
sins are truly forgiven, Well, they're

1609
02:22:24,319 --> 02:22:26,959
forgiving on earth as they are in
heaven, and as you know, as

1610
02:22:28,000 --> 02:22:30,719
far as I'm so, it's not
a question of valid it's a question of

1611
02:22:30,760 --> 02:22:33,600
whether they're efficacious in terms of the
grace. So you're trading on confusing the

1612
02:22:33,840 --> 02:22:41,280
words valid and gracious. Okay,
But if it's validated, it's gracious because

1613
02:22:41,319 --> 02:22:43,799
it hasn't. No, it's not. That's that's the point I'm making.

1614
02:22:46,040 --> 02:22:50,239
How do you know it is?
Okay? How do you know it is?

1615
02:22:52,799 --> 02:22:58,319
How do you know that the Orthodox
sacraments are too coque? What about

1616
02:22:58,559 --> 02:23:03,920
them? That's fallacy? All right? Well, okay, what about the

1617
02:23:03,959 --> 02:23:13,760
Eucharist? Barely do you think do
you think they got a real true blood

1618
02:23:13,760 --> 02:23:16,719
and blood of your Christ when they
offer it. I'm not talking about the

1619
02:23:16,799 --> 02:23:20,280
normous ordal obviously, not, but
like, maybe wait a minute, obviously

1620
02:23:20,479 --> 02:23:24,680
weld on obviously not the novisorder.
But what defines valid sacramentology in Rome is

1621
02:23:24,719 --> 02:23:30,440
communion with the papacy. Well,
I don't know. I think a lot

1622
02:23:30,479 --> 02:23:35,760
of people in the SSPX and some
of the Easter rights who speaks for Roman

1623
02:23:35,760 --> 02:23:41,600
Catholics the papacy or the SSPX,
because valid juris so having the keys and

1624
02:23:41,719 --> 02:23:46,479
having jurisdiction and having illicit celebration of
the sacrament. In Roman Catholic theology also

1625
02:23:46,639 --> 02:23:54,280
depends on being in communion with the
pope, so they might have illicit celebration.

1626
02:23:54,959 --> 02:23:58,959
But you're saying valid, Well,
it's valid in the sense in the

1627
02:23:58,040 --> 02:24:03,559
Roman Catholic theology of that. Well, let me let me phrase that.

1628
02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:09,079
Technically, you're correct that in the
Roman Catholic system, the SSPX have a

1629
02:24:09,399 --> 02:24:13,799
valid sacrament, but they don't have
jurisdiction, is what I was trying to

1630
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:16,559
say. So let me let me
set that straight. But the orthodoxy of

1631
02:24:16,600 --> 02:24:20,760
Sacraments is different from the Roman Catholic
or the SSPX position. But regardless,

1632
02:24:22,079 --> 02:24:24,799
it's not the SSPX that speaks for
Roman Catholicism. It's the papacy That's what

1633
02:24:24,920 --> 02:24:28,319
Vatican one says. Yeah, that's
what Vatican one says. But I mean

1634
02:24:28,440 --> 02:24:33,399
pre Vatican one, I think you
pretty much had the formulas written in stone.

1635
02:24:33,440 --> 02:24:37,280
I believe in like nineteen forty eight
two they had like the Vatican had

1636
02:24:37,319 --> 02:24:43,680
a document it was like sacramentous or
so what Like all this stuff's a big

1637
02:24:43,680 --> 02:24:48,159
contradiction. It's a big bundle of
contradictions. So why who even cares what

1638
02:24:48,319 --> 02:24:52,159
Roman SSPX says. I don't care. Well, I think we should care

1639
02:24:52,239 --> 02:24:56,360
because I think the most of the
Western world is Roman Catholics. We want

1640
02:24:56,440 --> 02:25:01,280
the yes, the world to come
back to normality before you know, the

1641
02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:05,719
fall of Vatican two. Well,
I don't think the normality is Vatican one

1642
02:25:05,760 --> 02:25:09,680
Catholicism. I think normality is the
Orthodox Church, and we don't have the

1643
02:25:09,719 --> 02:25:16,719
same sacramentology. So there you go. I think I do lean more toward

1644
02:25:16,760 --> 02:25:20,600
the Orthodox position too. But you
know what about the Orientals? Do the

1645
02:25:20,639 --> 02:25:24,959
Orientals have valid sacraments? As far
as you're confusing, You're confusing this acceptance

1646
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:31,280
of the valid celebration of a ritual
and the Church then saying that we don't

1647
02:25:31,319 --> 02:25:33,799
have to repeat the ritual because now
the impediment of the grace has been removed.

1648
02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:37,600
You can be received by vestiments or
something like that. That's not the

1649
02:25:37,680 --> 02:25:41,360
same thing as saying that they have
the grace within the sacrament outside of the

1650
02:25:41,479 --> 02:25:45,879
church. Two different things. And
the argument always hinges on confusing people with

1651
02:25:45,959 --> 02:25:50,360
the question of valid It's not a
question of valid because that's the Latin idea

1652
02:25:50,520 --> 02:25:52,719
of how you interpret the sacraments.
Is it valid or not the sospx are

1653
02:25:52,799 --> 02:25:56,520
valid. It doesn't matter in the
Orthodox view because in the Orthodox view,

1654
02:25:56,559 --> 02:26:03,120
if you're in schism, you can
doesn't the legal status of the sacraments doesn't

1655
02:26:03,159 --> 02:26:07,200
even matter because you're outside the faith. Roman Catholicism says that you can have

1656
02:26:07,360 --> 02:26:13,319
the celebration of the sacraments and the
grace without the faith. The Orthodox view

1657
02:26:13,520 --> 02:26:18,920
is that you can't have the sacraments
with the grace of the sacraments outside of

1658
02:26:20,040 --> 02:26:22,879
the faith. If you surrender the
faith, the grace is gone. That's

1659
02:26:22,920 --> 02:26:26,600
the Orthodox view. That's not the
traditional Roman Catholic view Allah of the Late

1660
02:26:26,639 --> 02:26:35,120
Middle Ages. Yeah, yeah,
you know, I guess the problem here

1661
02:26:35,159 --> 02:26:41,680
is the Roman Catholics kind of keep
changing, like the requirements for validity,

1662
02:26:41,760 --> 02:26:45,280
and yes, I'm going off the
Latin terms as far as like, so

1663
02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:48,639
the orthodoxy is not the same.
So if they have jurisdiction or not,

1664
02:26:50,639 --> 02:26:54,440
you know, I guess in some
Latin sacraments, jurisdiction is a requisite validity,

1665
02:26:54,879 --> 02:26:58,799
which is does it actually take effect
exactly? That was my point about

1666
02:27:00,159 --> 02:27:03,440
the question of jurisdiction, because for
example, I'm going for memory because I

1667
02:27:03,440 --> 02:27:07,479
don't remember everything about Roman Catholic canon
law and I don't even care. But

1668
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:15,440
so there's something about in order for
for example, a schismatic bishop, like

1669
02:27:16,000 --> 02:27:18,159
does he have the office of the
keys? And the question is no,

1670
02:27:18,600 --> 02:27:26,200
because if you're it doesn't matter about
how valid enlisted your ordination was. If

1671
02:27:26,239 --> 02:27:30,520
you're not in communion with the Roman
see, you no longer have jurisdiction,

1672
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:35,520
and that's different. So that would
mean that a schismatic SSPX bishop in the

1673
02:27:35,600 --> 02:27:39,559
Roman Catholic perspective of the papacy does
not have jurisdiction. That means that his

1674
02:27:39,879 --> 02:27:45,159
exercise of the keys is also not
really the exercise of the keys. So

1675
02:27:45,280 --> 02:27:46,600
do you see what I'm saying,
Like, so if he hears your confession,

1676
02:27:48,600 --> 02:27:50,319
is your sins really forgiven? Well, I mean, if he's lost

1677
02:27:50,440 --> 02:27:54,680
jurisdiction, I don't know that he
can exercise the function of forgiving your sins

1678
02:27:54,719 --> 02:27:58,799
because he no longer has jurisdiction,
and forgiving sins is one of the elements

1679
02:28:00,079 --> 02:28:03,239
of having jurisdiction. But I mean, all this stuff is inane and ridiculous,

1680
02:28:03,319 --> 02:28:07,239
like this is like splitting hairs over
stuff, when the papacy is like

1681
02:28:07,319 --> 02:28:11,159
out here pushing like butt stuff,
like this doesn't even matter. Man,

1682
02:28:11,280 --> 02:28:16,680
they're pushing butt stuff. Obviously that's
not the true church. You know.

1683
02:28:16,840 --> 02:28:18,399
I guess I guess what I'm saying
is. I know, I agree with

1684
02:28:18,479 --> 02:28:20,520
you all of your position, but
I guess what I'm saying is like,

1685
02:28:20,600 --> 02:28:22,719
look, I don't agree with the
butt stuff. I don't agree with a

1686
02:28:22,760 --> 02:28:26,600
lot of the weird old things.
Okay, well, the papacy pushes it,

1687
02:28:26,719 --> 02:28:28,799
so it's over. It's over.
The papacy pushes it, it's over.

1688
02:28:30,440 --> 02:28:33,040
But I guess what I'm saying,
as long as there's some type of

1689
02:28:33,399 --> 02:28:37,120
validity, some type of grace,
like hidden away in the eastern rights from

1690
02:28:37,120 --> 02:28:41,280
the SSPX like maybe, bro,
it's not hidden away. It's not hidden

1691
02:28:41,319 --> 02:28:45,799
away when the church is built on
Rome. The Roman Gallic church is not

1692
02:28:45,879 --> 02:28:50,879
built on eastern rights. That's just
one, and that's kind that's what you're

1693
02:28:50,959 --> 02:28:54,559
grasping a straws, dude, like
you can't pick and choose which ones you

1694
02:28:54,639 --> 02:28:58,559
want. I am Orthodox, by
the way, I'm just arguing against you.

1695
02:29:00,239 --> 02:29:03,559
Why are you arguing Roman Catholic positions
of your Orthodox doesn't make any sense.

1696
02:29:03,280 --> 02:29:05,639
I used to be a Roman Catholic, and I guess so you haven't

1697
02:29:05,680 --> 02:29:07,799
gotten rid of all the Roman Catholic
stuff. Is the issue? Then?

1698
02:29:09,200 --> 02:29:11,280
Look, I guess what I want
to say is this like when the Spaniards

1699
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:20,000
showed the Aztecs and the Native Americans
in two continents how to become Christians,

1700
02:29:20,040 --> 02:29:22,000
how to become Catholics. So I'm
the priesthood, the sacraments and all that.

1701
02:29:22,200 --> 02:29:24,760
Yeah, again, we don't have
to make personal judgments. Listen,

1702
02:29:24,840 --> 02:29:30,360
we don't have to make personal judgments. And all those people you listen to

1703
02:29:30,440 --> 02:29:33,319
me, are you listening to me? I'm answering your question. We don't

1704
02:29:33,360 --> 02:29:39,520
have to make personal judgments on the
determinations of their eternal destiny. We can

1705
02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:43,239
commend them to God. We don't
know that. But none of that makes

1706
02:29:43,360 --> 02:29:50,399
Roman Catholic sacraments suddenly gracious. Well, if it converted the Aztec Empire to

1707
02:29:50,559 --> 02:29:54,280
Christianity. I think there's some grace
in there. I never denied that there's

1708
02:29:54,959 --> 02:29:56,719
again I didn't. I don't know. No one could come to the Orthodox

1709
02:29:56,799 --> 02:30:00,840
Church if there wasn't grace outside the
church. That doesn't mean that they're the

1710
02:30:00,959 --> 02:30:03,559
church, you see, because the
Orthodox view is that if you separate yourself

1711
02:30:03,719 --> 02:30:09,879
from the church, you lose that
membership in the church. You're no longer

1712
02:30:09,920 --> 02:30:13,959
the body. I definitely think that
the Roman Catholic Church is definitely schismatic.

1713
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:22,079
Oh so the mistake here is thinking
that like Roman Catholics think Allah the Augustinian

1714
02:30:22,120 --> 02:30:26,799
sacramentologist. By the way, it's
not even consistently Augustinian, because Augustine thought

1715
02:30:26,159 --> 02:30:30,600
that if you commit the sin of
herrising schism, you no longer are in

1716
02:30:30,719 --> 02:30:35,479
the church. Even though so the
sacrament can be quote valid, but you're

1717
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:37,840
not benefiting from it because you're outside
the church. So he believes in note

1718
02:30:37,879 --> 02:30:41,239
salvation outside the church. The qualification
here, though, that's different, and

1719
02:30:41,280 --> 02:30:46,159
I'm trying to tell you what the
specific point of departure is is that the

1720
02:30:46,319 --> 02:30:50,920
Roman Catholic position thinks that you can
have the celebration of the sacrament. It's

1721
02:30:52,159 --> 02:30:56,680
the grace of that sacrament outside of
the faith, and that's the key point

1722
02:30:56,680 --> 02:30:58,719
of departure. The Orthodox says,
no, if you leave the faith,

1723
02:31:00,000 --> 02:31:03,879
Athanasius says in its festal letters,
you no longer have the celebration of the

1724
02:31:03,959 --> 02:31:07,440
Eucharist or whatever. It's not the
Eucharist. And father deacon, you could

1725
02:31:07,440 --> 02:31:11,159
comment on this in regard to the
way that the Orthodox Church treats priests in

1726
02:31:11,239 --> 02:31:15,200
terms of canon law. Are you
there, Yeah, I'm right here,

1727
02:31:15,719 --> 02:31:20,360
No, father Deacon, Father deacon, bro you sound like you're new to

1728
02:31:20,479 --> 02:31:22,639
Orthodoxy. Maybe you should just relax
and learn this stuff before you start just

1729
02:31:22,719 --> 02:31:26,239
freaking out. Listen to a clergy
tell you this. Oh yeah, sure,

1730
02:31:26,680 --> 02:31:31,000
So what was the question? Sorry, why don't Roman Catholics also have

1731
02:31:31,159 --> 02:31:35,760
the grace of the sacrament? Because
people have really converted to Jesus And I'm

1732
02:31:35,799 --> 02:31:39,399
saying you often make a really good
point about Orthodox canon law and the permission

1733
02:31:39,479 --> 02:31:46,520
to have the sacrament. Yeah,
so why should those outside the faith?

1734
02:31:46,559 --> 02:31:54,680
How how more blessings and a greater
privilege than those in the Orthodox case.

1735
02:31:54,799 --> 02:32:00,440
So, if you go to the
Orthodox liturgy, the intimates, those are

1736
02:32:00,479 --> 02:32:07,200
what's under the Gospel. And then
when the Gospel's taken off and set to

1737
02:32:07,280 --> 02:32:13,879
the back of the altar. When
the consecration on there is the authorized signature

1738
02:32:15,079 --> 02:32:22,639
by the bishop. So the priest
can't actually perform the sacraments. Nothing would

1739
02:32:22,639 --> 02:32:28,959
be efficacious because the church is where
the bishop is is sandang Natius says,

1740
02:32:30,760 --> 02:32:39,920
So what's happened in Orthodoxy before is
a bishop can suspend a priest and he

1741
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:48,520
takes his intimates, meaning the priest
can try to consecrate the Eucharist all he

1742
02:32:48,680 --> 02:32:54,120
wants, he has no power apart
from the bishop. So if that's true,

1743
02:32:54,360 --> 02:33:00,799
then why is it that those outside
of the faith have a inter prerogative

1744
02:33:01,079 --> 02:33:03,440
like, oh, but they can
do it. Do you understand that argument?

1745
02:33:03,040 --> 02:33:09,280
They're not even connected to a valid
biship. He left, so I

1746
02:33:09,399 --> 02:33:11,799
bring you on and he leaves,
so I don't know, maybe his connection

1747
02:33:11,920 --> 02:33:16,760
dropped, but I mean, he's
not even listening to what And I like

1748
02:33:16,840 --> 02:33:22,360
the way that you put it too. So what this means is the church

1749
02:33:22,520 --> 02:33:26,680
and the faith doesn't matter. Yeah, this is what leads the Roman Catholic

1750
02:33:26,799 --> 02:33:30,360
Church to say that if you're a
Satanist, you can be ordained a Roman

1751
02:33:30,399 --> 02:33:33,319
Catholic priest. That very night,
become a Satanist, and for the rest

1752
02:33:33,360 --> 02:33:37,680
of your life you can consecrate the
Eucharist. This is what leads the Roman

1753
02:33:37,719 --> 02:33:41,079
Catholics to say that an atheist and
a Muslim can baptize you. This is

1754
02:33:41,159 --> 02:33:46,680
ridiculous. Serve you because that's where
the view leads. Now people, when

1755
02:33:46,719 --> 02:33:48,239
we bring this up, Okay,
he dropped off, so I'm bringing him

1756
02:33:48,239 --> 02:33:56,000
back. Go ahead. Did you
hear the argument? Now he's let's see

1757
02:33:56,040 --> 02:34:03,440
what he says. Are you there
and canio? Oh? I see him?

1758
02:34:05,719 --> 02:34:13,559
Go ahead. Just I'muel California.
Did you hear the Did you hear

1759
02:34:13,639 --> 02:34:20,440
father Deacon's explanation from Orthodox kenilall?
Yeah? Hi, hello, Yeah,

1760
02:34:20,440 --> 02:34:22,879
I heard some of it, but
I got disconnected for a one. So

1761
02:34:24,040 --> 02:34:28,159
basically, I'll make it really quick, look really quick. It's very simple

1762
02:34:28,280 --> 02:34:31,719
argument. If an Orthodox priest has
to get the permission of a bishop to

1763
02:34:31,760 --> 02:34:35,159
even have the Eucharist the antimin the
permission, then why would people outside the

1764
02:34:35,239 --> 02:34:43,879
church have a greater privilege than an
Orthodox priest? Makes no sense? Yeah,

1765
02:34:45,000 --> 02:34:46,959
yeah, yeah, I guess.
I guess I'll just argument from the

1766
02:34:46,040 --> 02:34:50,959
Roman Catholic Catholic point of view of
like you know, so relearn. You

1767
02:34:52,040 --> 02:34:56,680
need to relearn. You got to
relearn your sacramentology. You can't map on

1768
02:34:56,360 --> 02:35:03,040
Roman Catholic SSBIX sacramentology onto Orthodox do
so it makes sense. Yeah, it's

1769
02:35:03,079 --> 02:35:05,399
hard. Man. I live in
Spain and I go to a Russian Orthodox

1770
02:35:05,479 --> 02:35:07,680
church and the priest has only been
in the country for two years. He

1771
02:35:07,680 --> 02:35:09,920
doesn't speak Spanish, he doesn't speak
English. It's like purely Russian. So

1772
02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:13,360
it's like I'm going to the church, but it's like I'm really an Internet

1773
02:35:13,479 --> 02:35:22,479
Orthodox, and there's like the Spaniards
all Roman Catholics. So I understand a

1774
02:35:22,559 --> 02:35:26,239
lot of good for a lot of
people internationally, you know, Thank you.

1775
02:35:26,479 --> 02:35:28,159
I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm
not being mean to be mean with

1776
02:35:28,239 --> 02:35:31,680
you. I just thought you were. I thought you were I didn't realize

1777
02:35:31,680 --> 02:35:33,479
you're Orthodox for us out I thought
you were a Romancaolic. Getting getting salty,

1778
02:35:33,520 --> 02:35:37,559
But that's okay, no, no, no, But you know,

1779
02:35:37,680 --> 02:35:41,159
I don't know. I like to
think that more people are saved. I

1780
02:35:41,280 --> 02:35:43,840
like to think like half of the
world isn't doomed, you know, especially,

1781
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:48,559
we don't have to judge people's that
we don't know. We don't have

1782
02:35:48,639 --> 02:35:52,479
to judge people's destiny. We don't
know their destiny. God can unite them

1783
02:35:52,000 --> 02:35:54,799
in his own ways to the mystical
body of Christ. And I mean he

1784
02:35:54,840 --> 02:35:58,760
does this with the thief on the
cross. So God has his own ways

1785
02:35:58,840 --> 02:36:03,959
that he can unite people to the
mystical body outside the norm but the normative

1786
02:36:03,000 --> 02:36:11,639
way is through the Orthodox you know, sacramentology and theology. So yeah,

1787
02:36:11,680 --> 02:36:15,680
I definitely definitely agree with you.
I've been Orthodox for about three years now,

1788
02:36:15,799 --> 02:36:18,920
so so yeah, it's been it's
been an interesting experience, and yeah,

1789
02:36:20,040 --> 02:36:24,639
learning a lot of like especially about
like theosis, things Roman Catholics won't

1790
02:36:24,680 --> 02:36:28,600
talk about. Yeah, I've noticed
like how they put the divinity of like

1791
02:36:28,760 --> 02:36:31,959
Mary everywhere, and then you go
to Roman Catholic Church and Jesus always getting

1792
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:35,360
like beat up and whipped and like
like half dying. You know, It's

1793
02:36:35,440 --> 02:36:39,200
like you go to Orthodox Church,
Jesus was always like God and resurrect yes,

1794
02:36:39,600 --> 02:36:43,680
exactly resurrected. And Mary's like more
humble, like a regular ladies.

1795
02:36:43,760 --> 02:36:46,799
She's not like crowned, like flying
through the sky. You know. It's

1796
02:36:46,879 --> 02:36:52,000
like, yeah, I think that
those are those are realizing that, right,

1797
02:36:52,120 --> 02:36:54,799
Yeah, those are kind of like
uh, you know, patterns of

1798
02:36:56,159 --> 02:37:00,559
exaggeration that we see in Roman Catholic
theology exactly. I totally agree. Yeah,

1799
02:37:00,639 --> 02:37:03,639
thank you for that. Hopefully that
we didn't get too salt there.

1800
02:37:05,799 --> 02:37:09,920
Layman wanted to come back. Did
you come back? Or you forgot what

1801
02:37:09,000 --> 02:37:16,159
you were talking about a minute ago? Maybe we couldn't connect. What's up,

1802
02:37:16,239 --> 02:37:20,879
Layman? I'm mute hi him,
Sorry about that. Yeah. So,

1803
02:37:22,280 --> 02:37:26,879
so I'm a watcher of like the
Diamond Brothers like that in Catholic dot

1804
02:37:26,959 --> 02:37:33,159
com. I I know that may
be like a bad thing, but they

1805
02:37:33,239 --> 02:37:39,159
brought up a point about Saint Lead
the Great talking about uh like the the

1806
02:37:39,280 --> 02:37:45,000
light of the transfiguration coming off of
like Christ's face, and and the light

1807
02:37:45,120 --> 02:37:52,200
being basically from his like specific to
his human nature. I was wondering,

1808
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:58,680
like, does that contradict the uh
the idea that it's uncreated if it's specific

1809
02:37:58,760 --> 02:38:01,879
to his human nature. Well,
it's specific to his human nature, because

1810
02:38:01,920 --> 02:38:05,319
everything that Christ does, he does
in the two natures that he possesses.

1811
02:38:05,399 --> 02:38:09,040
So this is the Kyrelene idea of
the communication of idioms or the communicatio idiom

1812
02:38:09,079 --> 02:38:13,600
autum. So whatever is predicated of
either nature, whether it's walking on water,

1813
02:38:15,000 --> 02:38:20,600
whether it's the uncreated light that shines
through him. It's also appropriate to

1814
02:38:20,719 --> 02:38:24,959
say that it occurs in the one
incarnated hypostatic Christ. So it's one Christ

1815
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:28,479
acting, and he acts, as
Cyril says, in both natures and by

1816
02:38:28,559 --> 02:38:33,239
both natures. But that doesn't mean
that his person is reduced to the nature.

1817
02:38:33,440 --> 02:38:37,360
So there's nothing wrong with saying that
the uncreated light proceeds from and through

1818
02:38:37,520 --> 02:38:41,520
his human nature, because that's what
it is. But first, the end

1819
02:38:41,559 --> 02:38:45,639
of Paul's letter to Timothy identifies God
as the uncreated light. So do you

1820
02:38:45,760 --> 02:38:50,920
think that God is a creature?
No, No, I was just thinking

1821
02:38:50,959 --> 02:38:54,920
more about like his body. Okay, do you think the why would the

1822
02:38:56,200 --> 02:39:00,719
I mean the light? There is
a it's called the transfiguration because a famous

1823
02:39:00,799 --> 02:39:05,520
passage showing his deity. So if
it's a created human light, why would

1824
02:39:05,559 --> 02:39:09,959
that testify to his deity? Well? Yeah, I mean I don't know

1825
02:39:11,040 --> 02:39:13,079
for sure. I mean the only
thing I can think of is maybe it's

1826
02:39:13,200 --> 02:39:18,440
like his humanity kind of being brought
up, brought up. What do you

1827
02:39:18,559 --> 02:39:24,959
mean, like like, well,
I don't know, maybe being givinized in

1828
02:39:26,079 --> 02:39:28,760
a sense maybe, Like okay,
But so John one, the light of

1829
02:39:28,879 --> 02:39:35,479
Christ is identified as the uncreated light, contrasted with the light of Genesis one,

1830
02:39:35,520 --> 02:39:39,920
which is created light. One Timothy
six Paul says that Christ is potentate,

1831
02:39:41,040 --> 02:39:45,200
king of King's, Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality, dwelling

1832
02:39:45,360 --> 02:39:50,680
in unapproachable light. So the light
is it's always used in the New Testament.

1833
02:39:50,319 --> 02:39:56,280
Where is there ever any suggestion or
reference to God's light being a creature?

1834
02:39:58,479 --> 02:40:05,120
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
not a creature. So a quote

1835
02:40:05,200 --> 02:40:07,799
where uh it's talking about I'm assuming
I have the quote in front of me.

1836
02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:11,559
But the quote where it's talking about
the eminence or the emanation of the

1837
02:40:11,639 --> 02:40:15,639
light or the radiance of the light
from his human nature, does not mean

1838
02:40:15,680 --> 02:40:18,440
that it's a created light. Because
the uncreated light comes to us. We

1839
02:40:18,600 --> 02:40:22,639
participated in it through the human nature
of Christ, just like the Eucharists saying,

1840
02:40:22,719 --> 02:40:28,040
if you look at Cyril Cyril and
Ephesus describes what you eat in the

1841
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:31,799
Eucharist, right, do you think
you eat created grace in the Eucharist?

1842
02:40:31,879 --> 02:40:33,559
Or do you do you? Or
do you eat as Cyril says, the

1843
02:40:33,760 --> 02:40:43,200
uncreated immortality and energy of the God
man, I think the uncreated energies.

1844
02:40:43,440 --> 02:40:48,000
Yeah, So it's over for Roman
Catholicism, because they teach that what you

1845
02:40:48,280 --> 02:40:54,040
partake of is a supernatural creation.
Do you want me to cite Ought for

1846
02:40:54,200 --> 02:41:01,399
that? Uh? I mean I
could look at up. Yeah, I

1847
02:41:01,479 --> 02:41:07,360
mean, no, I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean is there any

1848
02:41:07,399 --> 02:41:13,000
other energy passages or anything you'd like
me to address? No, I was

1849
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:16,600
more it was really just as it. Ok, thank you though, Sure

1850
02:41:16,159 --> 02:41:39,399
A good question. Yeah. So, m I've lost my note in Aught

1851
02:41:39,639 --> 02:41:45,120
where I've got to know my letter? So that or excuse me, and

1852
02:41:45,200 --> 02:41:50,159
my h that's the procession of the
spirit. That's not the grace here we

1853
02:41:50,239 --> 02:42:07,440
go, where's my note on grace? Here? It is so little we

1854
02:42:07,520 --> 02:42:22,440
got bono mials of Catholic theology sanctifying
grace is a created, supernatural gift really

1855
02:42:22,520 --> 02:42:26,600
distinct from God. And because Roman
Catholicism, as Aught explains in the first

1856
02:42:26,600 --> 02:42:31,280
few chapters, defines God as identical
to his essence. His attributes are identical

1857
02:42:31,319 --> 02:42:37,559
to his essence. He's defined as
an absolutely simple monad essence. The cause

1858
02:42:37,680 --> 02:42:41,959
is unique. To show me the
existence is identical to the essence, I

1859
02:42:41,959 --> 02:42:46,959
should say, act as purists.
This leads them to then conclude about grace

1860
02:42:48,120 --> 02:42:52,719
that grace cannot be anything identical to
God. It must be a created,

1861
02:42:54,000 --> 02:43:00,239
supernatural accident in the soul. And
that's explicit in what we just saw in

1862
02:43:00,360 --> 02:43:05,159
Ought. So that means that what
you partake of is not an uncreated reality,

1863
02:43:05,559 --> 02:43:11,239
it's a created reality. Freezings back. Uh, what's up, dude?

1864
02:43:11,719 --> 02:43:24,959
Set my straight? Yeah, yes, sir, I mean, man,

1865
02:43:26,399 --> 02:43:30,959
hey, hey, thanks for letting
me back on. Okay. So,

1866
02:43:31,920 --> 02:43:35,319
I was reading a bit of of
the Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church

1867
02:43:35,680 --> 02:43:43,239
by Lawsky, and I think it's
a bit above my reading level. So,

1868
02:43:43,760 --> 02:43:46,959
and I'm kind of from like a
Protestant background. So what would be

1869
02:43:48,040 --> 02:43:52,600
like some books you recommend together?
I would start with Clark Carlton or something

1870
02:43:52,719 --> 02:44:01,719
like that, like Clark Carlton's trilogy
or Orthodox Church by Myndorf. Stanis what's

1871
02:44:01,799 --> 02:44:05,639
up? Stannus? Hey? There? I was inquiring into Orthodoxy and I

1872
02:44:05,760 --> 02:44:11,600
was wondering, what is the Orthodox
view about I suppose consuming media like K

1873
02:44:11,760 --> 02:44:16,920
pop. I mean, I don't
think there is an orthodox view on K

1874
02:44:18,079 --> 02:44:22,399
pop, but I think that any
media that you know, significantly promotes degeneracy

1875
02:44:22,520 --> 02:44:28,079
is something that we should probably avoid. Uh, let's see who's next.

1876
02:44:28,200 --> 02:44:31,680
Bart or no bat Salo. I
thought, I said bart bat solo.

1877
02:44:33,760 --> 02:44:37,920
Brett Sale says, I just finished
reading St. Cyril of Alexander and the

1878
02:44:37,959 --> 02:44:39,840
Christological Controversy. Incredible book. Thanks
for the recommendation. It's been a game

1879
02:44:39,959 --> 02:44:43,360
changer. Thank you Brett Sales for
that ten bucks. Yeah, that is

1880
02:44:43,479 --> 02:44:46,319
a really good book. Unfortunately the
author kind of went off the rails,

1881
02:44:46,559 --> 02:44:50,479
but the book is still a good
classic treatment of Cyril. What's up that,

1882
02:44:52,399 --> 02:44:58,120
salo? Uh? Yeah? Hello. So I've been watching a lot

1883
02:44:58,159 --> 02:45:01,680
of your videos recently and I love
your debates of the atheists. I think

1884
02:45:01,680 --> 02:45:05,479
atheism is total nonsense. I was
baptism in the Orthodox Church as a child,

1885
02:45:05,520 --> 02:45:11,360
but I kind of left because I
live in Scotland. Atheist, but

1886
02:45:11,760 --> 02:45:13,399
I'm heading back into it, I
know. I'm just curious. In your

1887
02:45:13,440 --> 02:45:18,600
debates you always say that Orthodoxy is
the only is the only world. You

1888
02:45:18,879 --> 02:45:22,319
gives a proper account for all the
things like logic and all the trans and

1889
02:45:22,360 --> 02:45:26,040
dental categories. Can you go into
a bit in depth as to how that

1890
02:45:26,239 --> 02:45:30,000
is? Because I don't really get
that part. You always lose me there.

1891
02:45:30,200 --> 02:45:35,639
Why is it orthodoxy specifically? Yeah, giving an account means justification like

1892
02:45:35,719 --> 02:45:39,280
in an epistemic sense. So,
as we talked about earlier in this discussion

1893
02:45:39,280 --> 02:45:43,120
a couple hours ago, when we
had an atheist or a former atheists asking

1894
02:45:43,200 --> 02:45:48,000
that question, Christianity presents a certain
specific metaphysic, a certain specific epistemology,

1895
02:45:48,040 --> 02:45:52,319
and a certain specific ethic. That
metaphysic, for example, gives an account

1896
02:45:52,440 --> 02:45:58,000
for how all of the transcendental categories, which are the preconditions of knowledge,

1897
02:45:58,280 --> 02:46:01,280
how they work together, how they
in here and interrelate with one another,

1898
02:46:01,600 --> 02:46:05,959
and where they're located, namely in
the created world and its structure patterned on

1899
02:46:07,040 --> 02:46:11,680
the divine mind. So that's what
I mean, Okay. And one second

1900
02:46:11,719 --> 02:46:18,680
thing, how do I talk to
atheists who try and like science me like

1901
02:46:18,840 --> 02:46:22,719
they like they say things like like
the Bible says that the Earth was created

1902
02:46:22,760 --> 02:46:28,079
in seven days and stuff like that. How do I refute them? Well?

1903
02:46:28,120 --> 02:46:33,000
I would start studying, you know, critiques of evolutionary philosophy and evolutionary

1904
02:46:33,040 --> 02:46:37,760
paradigm. I would start with stuff
from like doctor Sarfatti. I would read

1905
02:46:37,479 --> 02:46:45,719
Sara from Rose's book Genesis Creation Early
Man. I would read the Titus Bruckhart's

1906
02:46:45,840 --> 02:46:50,280
essays that critique evolutionary philosophy from a
philosophical perspective, because the problem with going

1907
02:46:50,319 --> 02:46:54,239
to the science papers and all that, like, you'll never get anywhere with

1908
02:46:54,399 --> 02:46:58,479
all of that, And really science
is built on philosophy. Even the modern

1909
02:47:00,159 --> 02:47:03,040
science people don't know this or recognize
this. If you can go to philosophy,

1910
02:47:03,079 --> 02:47:07,440
you can actually cut to the chase
a lot quicker, especially when you

1911
02:47:07,559 --> 02:47:11,879
can explain to people that science isn't
neutral. It works on certain presubpositions,

1912
02:47:11,959 --> 02:47:16,079
preconditions, and paradigms. So the
questions that we're talking about in terms of

1913
02:47:16,159 --> 02:47:22,639
philosophy and metaphysics are actually prior to
the doing of any science. So science

1914
02:47:22,799 --> 02:47:26,360
is not bad or not a problem, but the interpretation of the data and

1915
02:47:26,399 --> 02:47:31,799
the various theories of science can never
get you to explaining or justifying the metaphysics

1916
02:47:31,840 --> 02:47:35,440
and the epistemology that undergird science itself. You say, so that's the route

1917
02:47:35,479 --> 02:47:43,079
that I would go, But specifically, how would I answer claims about science

1918
02:47:43,200 --> 02:47:46,719
that directly like go against say the
teachings of the Church or the Bible.

1919
02:47:48,440 --> 02:47:54,799
With what I just said, Okay, okay, thank you, thank you.

1920
02:47:56,879 --> 02:47:58,799
Yeah. By that, I mean
that the debate would kind of go

1921
02:48:00,079 --> 02:48:05,559
back to questions of epistemology, justification, what it means to know a thing?

1922
02:48:05,879 --> 02:48:07,879
What can science actually prove or demonstrate? Because a lot of times,

1923
02:48:07,920 --> 02:48:09,920
again, the people that we're talking
about, the people are dealing with,

1924
02:48:11,799 --> 02:48:16,200
they don't know anything about philosophy.
They think that it's kind of like what

1925
02:48:18,000 --> 02:48:22,399
weird theater people do, sitting around
speculating because they can't do science, and

1926
02:48:22,399 --> 02:48:28,600
they don't even recognize that science is
actually based on all kinds of philosophical presuppositions.

1927
02:48:28,639 --> 02:48:33,239
And that's why every time we have
debates with atheists and scientism, soy

1928
02:48:33,319 --> 02:48:37,239
men, they absolutely crumble because they
have no idea about these topics. So,

1929
02:48:37,959 --> 02:48:46,000
master Blue, what's up? Look
for the bare necessities? What's up?

1930
02:48:46,040 --> 02:48:54,600
Blue? Mother Nature's recipes for good? About your worries and your style?

1931
02:48:54,559 --> 02:49:00,799
What's up? Yep? Right?
Just set a question. What's your

1932
02:49:01,120 --> 02:49:07,280
interpretation of a book of relation fourteen
fourteen? Let's see? Do you think

1933
02:49:07,360 --> 02:49:13,559
like is Jesus himself? Or is
it like one like a son of mine?

1934
02:49:15,680 --> 02:49:18,639
And I'll do the fine. How
do you see the sickle in his

1935
02:49:18,760 --> 02:49:22,280
hand? Is it the reaper?
Do you imagine him being the reaper?

1936
02:49:22,239 --> 02:49:30,719
Did you imagine him? Ideas about
it's the same son of Man always in

1937
02:49:30,760 --> 02:49:33,120
the Bible as Jesus, Yes,
and writing on a white cloud. Right,

1938
02:49:33,440 --> 02:49:37,760
that's the same descriptions of Ezekiel Revelation
one and two. Yes, as

1939
02:49:37,840 --> 02:49:46,120
Jesus. The sickle just signifies that
he is prepared to exact the death penalty

1940
02:49:46,200 --> 02:49:52,879
on the enemies here Earlier, it
says in the text that he has the

1941
02:49:52,959 --> 02:49:56,200
keys of death and hades, so
he has the right to decide life and

1942
02:49:56,280 --> 02:50:05,399
death. Are you there, Ballou? Are you there? Bro? Hello?

1943
02:50:09,840 --> 02:50:15,000
Uh? Lost? You can't hear
you, dude, Nope, this

1944
02:50:15,120 --> 02:50:18,000
guy is ready to they it just
say nope, what's up? Nope?

1945
02:50:22,239 --> 02:50:24,360
Hey, So I hear you talking
all about this tradition and stuff. And

1946
02:50:24,440 --> 02:50:30,479
you know what the Holy Father say
about having a long beard. Where's the

1947
02:50:30,520 --> 02:50:33,319
beard at? Bro? Talking about
all the traditions and stuff. What are

1948
02:50:33,319 --> 02:50:37,399
you talking about having a beard?
Where's your beard? You said? I

1949
02:50:37,520 --> 02:50:41,520
talk about all the traditions and stuff, bro, Yeah, like the tradition

1950
02:50:41,639 --> 02:50:46,600
of having a beard. Yeah,
you think that that's what makes an orthodox

1951
02:50:46,680 --> 02:50:50,600
person? Is canon law about having
a beard? No? I just think

1952
02:50:50,639 --> 02:50:54,840
it makes somebody super based in trad
if they have a long beard. You

1953
02:50:54,959 --> 02:50:58,879
want to think parish like those will
come in with a big long beard and

1954
02:51:00,120 --> 02:51:03,280
we'll have like a prayer rope and
they're doing the Jesus prayer and they're just

1955
02:51:03,479 --> 02:51:07,959
like, man, yeah, I'm
right. Well I'm not piassed and I

1956
02:51:07,000 --> 02:51:09,719
don't have a long beard, so
I guess I'm not really orthodox, so

1957
02:51:09,840 --> 02:51:13,760
I can I can see your point. Okay, fair? So what else?

1958
02:51:13,840 --> 02:51:18,719
What other arguments you've got for me? Nope? Uh that's it man.

1959
02:51:18,760 --> 02:51:22,000
I just think you should throw the
beard out. Uh why is that?

1960
02:51:22,319 --> 02:51:24,879
I just think it would make you
look. You know, Augustine himself,

1961
02:51:24,959 --> 02:51:28,000
the father of the Western Church,
says, you know that that's that's

1962
02:51:28,040 --> 02:51:31,959
what you call someone when they're a
man. They they're they're a bearded man.

1963
02:51:31,360 --> 02:51:35,440
Okay, do you have a beard? I do? Okay, so

1964
02:51:35,559 --> 02:51:37,639
you're more of a man than me. You got me. Well, you're

1965
02:51:37,680 --> 02:51:41,479
conceding a lot, and this is
crazy. This is my first time calling

1966
02:51:41,559 --> 02:51:45,120
in, this is my first debate
with DJ Dyer, and and I'm winning.

1967
02:51:45,200 --> 02:51:48,639
Do you think it's you think this
is a debate? Uh No,

1968
02:51:48,799 --> 02:51:50,639
I don't. It's definitely a joke. But I do appreciate you conceding the

1969
02:51:50,680 --> 02:51:56,079
points. Well, how did I
conceive the points. If you know that

1970
02:51:56,159 --> 02:52:00,799
I'm not being serious. Oh so
you're not being serious either. Well it's

1971
02:52:00,840 --> 02:52:05,319
been fun and I'll let you go
on the more serious topics. Yeah,

1972
02:52:05,680 --> 02:52:16,959
tongue to block man, he left
the frock of blocking. Yeah. I

1973
02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:24,559
don't have any patience for the piety
signals. Look for the bear necessities.

1974
02:52:24,879 --> 02:52:28,799
The bar necessity's talking about my bare
face, my shaven face, because I'm

1975
02:52:28,840 --> 02:52:33,639
not a fool man, because I
got a bear, a baby bear face,

1976
02:52:35,760 --> 02:52:39,959
not a real man. Atheism United, Uh, it's getting real now.

1977
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:43,600
Oh damn, what am I gonna
do? What's up, dude?

1978
02:52:45,639 --> 02:53:01,959
You there, hello, Atheism United. Little h I had a question,

1979
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:07,360
this is a question. Yesterday we
were trying to explain to ourselves what the

1980
02:53:07,440 --> 02:53:16,079
Holy Trinity was, and we we
looked at the mind map of what the

1981
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:24,280
person that the three persons are like
the Holy Spirit. The mind map not

1982
02:53:24,440 --> 02:53:30,079
a mind map, but like an
illustration. What it's depicted as persons and

1983
02:53:30,239 --> 02:53:35,479
as energies. And I had a
question for you. Okay, So,

1984
02:53:35,680 --> 02:53:39,479
from from the Father to the Holy
Spirit, there is procession. Correct,

1985
02:53:43,520 --> 02:53:48,360
the Father precedes the Spirit. Correct, all right? From the Father to

1986
02:53:48,479 --> 02:53:54,440
the Son there is generation. Correct? So if you look at the procession

1987
02:53:56,280 --> 02:54:05,840
and there is eternal manifestation, what
is the difference between precision and eternal manifestation.

1988
02:54:09,600 --> 02:54:11,719
It's the movement of the persons in
the trinity versus the origin of the

1989
02:54:11,760 --> 02:54:20,000
person's in the trinity. So,
in other words, one uh talks about

1990
02:54:20,079 --> 02:54:24,200
the persons, the other one talks
about the energies. Right now, the

1991
02:54:24,319 --> 02:54:30,680
movement of the persons versus the origin, and by extension, the energies also

1992
02:54:30,799 --> 02:54:33,200
have the same movement. That's true. That's what so manifestation is referring to

1993
02:54:33,360 --> 02:54:39,360
both the persons and their energy is
how they move in the triad. M

1994
02:54:39,959 --> 02:54:46,479
So the difference is origin versus movement. Yeah, can you elaborate more on

1995
02:54:46,639 --> 02:54:54,280
the movement twice? It's important because
God is revealed as a triad generating and

1996
02:54:54,399 --> 02:55:03,719
proceeding. M hm okay, I
understand. So the procession itself, it's

1997
02:55:03,920 --> 02:55:09,559
a vehicle, correct, I don't
think no, it's it's the way,

1998
02:55:09,680 --> 02:55:13,319
it's the mode in which, well, the procession of the spirit is his

1999
02:55:13,520 --> 02:55:22,559
hypostatic origin. I don't know what
you mean by vehicle. I will give

2000
02:55:22,600 --> 02:55:28,799
you the Google definition of it.
I know what the word vehicle means I'm

2001
02:55:28,840 --> 02:55:39,959
just I don't understand your usage of
it. A vehicle meaning that it's so

2002
02:55:39,159 --> 02:55:45,719
curate says relating to the person of
the Trinity. A vehicle meaning that it's

2003
02:55:48,239 --> 02:55:54,799
connects. It is like an arrow
which passes from something to something else in

2004
02:55:54,920 --> 02:56:00,559
that way, A vehicle. I
mean, if that that's the sense in

2005
02:56:00,639 --> 02:56:03,600
what you mean, and that's what
I mean by movement. Okay, okay,

2006
02:56:05,479 --> 02:56:09,399
all right, that was my question. I watch your show and I

2007
02:56:09,559 --> 02:56:13,920
agree with a lot of the points
you're making. It's pleasure of being on

2008
02:56:13,000 --> 02:56:16,520
the show. Yeah, thank you, appreciate it. Now to the guy

2009
02:56:16,600 --> 02:56:20,479
in the chat again, mod's if
these people take over the chat, just

2010
02:56:20,760 --> 02:56:26,239
boot them, dude. If the
guy won't come on, there is no

2011
02:56:26,360 --> 02:56:30,079
debate. If you mute me,
you're stoning me. Okay, well come

2012
02:56:30,120 --> 02:56:33,079
on and debate. I don't know
what you're talking about. Muting you is

2013
02:56:33,120 --> 02:56:35,840
not stoning you. That's it's not
the same thing. So, uh,

2014
02:56:37,959 --> 02:56:41,879
where are you in the chat?
So if CW doesn't come on, just

2015
02:56:41,920 --> 02:56:48,399
spoot this person. Yeah I'm aggrevating. I'm inviting you on. So you're

2016
02:56:48,399 --> 02:56:52,120
saying that I'm scared of the truth
and all this stuff. So I mean

2017
02:56:52,639 --> 02:56:54,479
You've been given the link many times. So if you're not gonna come on,

2018
02:56:56,239 --> 02:56:58,920
you're just gonna get booted. So
last chance. If I don't see

2019
02:57:00,879 --> 02:57:03,280
what's his name? Christ wins,
thank you, Chase, just beat that

2020
02:57:03,399 --> 02:57:07,799
guy because he's not gonna come on. Let's see n A D what's up?

2021
02:57:07,920 --> 02:57:20,840
Nod? Yes, sir, it's
not me. It's just what I

2022
02:57:20,959 --> 02:57:24,520
think. I think you got the
wrong guy. But anyways, I just

2023
02:57:24,280 --> 02:57:28,479
he's not in here, So I'm
going to your next that guy's not show

2024
02:57:28,559 --> 02:57:33,280
up. Okay, sure, so
I'm orthodox. I just I don't have

2025
02:57:33,600 --> 02:57:39,639
any like hard or like questions.
But well, today is about disagreement,

2026
02:57:39,719 --> 02:57:43,440
So do you have an area of
disagreement. I don't have a disagreement,

2027
02:57:43,479 --> 02:57:50,799
but I have like some some like
argumental questions about like it's not it's more,

2028
02:57:50,920 --> 02:57:58,959
but I need to more something.
So it's about so this. There's

2029
02:58:00,239 --> 02:58:07,600
dischismatics. And there's also the like
some churches or something this churches that aren't

2030
02:58:09,079 --> 02:58:16,760
agreed upon in some patriarchates, like
like some churches don't agree to oc A

2031
02:58:18,040 --> 02:58:20,959
is a church. Some do agree
it's a church. Because you've got you

2032
02:58:22,079 --> 02:58:24,959
got questions of canon law, like
I don't do canon law. That's not

2033
02:58:24,079 --> 02:58:28,000
mine. That's why, So go
ask the priests or something about the sacraments.

2034
02:58:30,159 --> 02:58:33,799
There's no nobody thinks that the sacraments
are not valid. So anyway,

2035
02:58:33,840 --> 02:58:35,799
I'm not trying to be mean,
but I don't do canon law stuff.

2036
02:58:37,399 --> 02:58:39,159
Maddie Ice, what's up, Maddy
Ice? So it's open for him.

2037
02:58:39,200 --> 02:58:43,440
You can request to speak. Today
is for just people that disagree. I

2038
02:58:43,479 --> 02:58:46,840
don't do candilalal questions and all that
kind of stuff. Not being mean to

2039
02:58:46,879 --> 02:58:50,639
you, just it's just not my
my dumbain people in the chat. You're

2040
02:58:50,680 --> 02:59:01,799
not going to come on debate,
go ahead. Yeah, uh so I'm

2041
02:59:03,440 --> 02:59:11,159
just pull the school you're on,
uh Roman Catholic inquiry the Eastern North anyway,

2042
02:59:13,840 --> 02:59:16,520
But I guess my first point that
I wanted to bring up is in

2043
02:59:16,680 --> 02:59:31,000
terms of Eastern Orthodox. Yeah.
Lost, you dude, don't have any

2044
02:59:31,040 --> 02:59:39,200
audio. Sorry, try coming out
and coming back in Cody's back. Go

2045
02:59:39,280 --> 02:59:58,120
ahead. You gotta unmute yourself.
Are you got on mute Cody or what?

2046
03:00:01,000 --> 03:00:07,399
Oh? Sorry man? Hello?
Yeah yeah yeah it was you know,

2047
03:00:07,440 --> 03:00:09,920
and then I was Genesis six,
like I don't know if the Catholics

2048
03:00:09,959 --> 03:00:15,479
believe in like you know what the
fallen Angels came into the Daughters of manner

2049
03:00:15,479 --> 03:00:18,760
of like about the Sons of Seth
theory? Do you do you know any

2050
03:00:18,840 --> 03:00:20,760
more about that? Thank you for
taking my call again. Yeah, I

2051
03:00:22,079 --> 03:00:28,760
know all about it. I do
I know all that. What do you

2052
03:00:28,799 --> 03:00:33,360
want to know? Yeah? I
thought the Catholics believe in the Sons of

2053
03:00:33,479 --> 03:00:37,079
Seth theory more like the Falling Name. I'm not a Roman Catholic, but

2054
03:00:37,319 --> 03:00:41,399
Roman Catholics don't have a set theory
on Genesis six. There's no dogmatic statement

2055
03:00:41,479 --> 03:00:48,239
on Gesis six. It's pretty interesting, like Genesis six, very like,

2056
03:00:48,360 --> 03:00:52,159
that's one of the most fascinating parts
in the Bible for me. It's just

2057
03:00:52,399 --> 03:00:58,399
you know what's in the Bible.
Yeah, thank you, it's very like

2058
03:00:58,559 --> 03:01:03,639
interesting, it is interesting, Yes, sir, appreciate it. Dude,

2059
03:01:05,239 --> 03:01:20,200
Abby, what's up? Abby Good? I'm mute, Abbey, uh uh,

2060
03:01:20,879 --> 03:01:37,280
I'm you? Abby, I'm you? Or don't Novus now? Novus

2061
03:01:37,319 --> 03:01:41,319
always? So I'm gonna go to
Ethan because it's for disagree ors tonight,

2062
03:01:41,399 --> 03:01:46,079
guys, people that disagree. So
it's not the FA's. There's plenty of

2063
03:01:46,120 --> 03:01:50,959
places people you can find the faus. Go ahead, Ethan, Hey can

2064
03:01:50,000 --> 03:01:56,799
you hear me? So I'm a
Protestant and I've been a Protestant pretty much

2065
03:01:56,840 --> 03:02:01,040
my whole life. Probably about a
year ago I would have been full on

2066
03:02:01,120 --> 03:02:05,000
solo scriptura stuff like that. But
late last year I kind of started getting

2067
03:02:05,040 --> 03:02:07,680
the Orthodox stuff. I watched some
of like father tread and stuff some of

2068
03:02:07,760 --> 03:02:13,440
your stuff. Right now, I'm
in a class at the university I go

2069
03:02:13,520 --> 03:02:16,600
to. It's a Church of Christ
university I go to, and it's interpreting

2070
03:02:16,639 --> 03:02:20,879
the Bible class, and we started
talking about soul scriptura. And one of

2071
03:02:20,920 --> 03:02:26,959
the arguments that my professor brought up
was that because solo scripture, like because

2072
03:02:26,000 --> 03:02:31,200
scripture is inspired, because it's inspired, that necessitates sol scriptura. And I

2073
03:02:31,280 --> 03:02:37,120
never really heard that argument before.
But how would you answer that, Well,

2074
03:02:37,760 --> 03:02:43,040
it necessitates that scripture is authoritative.
It does not necessitate or prove that

2075
03:02:43,120 --> 03:02:46,520
scripture is the only final authority and
also doesn't tell us which books make up

2076
03:02:46,559 --> 03:02:50,319
the scripture, right, right,
And that's kind of what I was thinking.

2077
03:02:52,399 --> 03:02:56,159
And like I understand how tradition works
and how like Orthodox is the Orthodox

2078
03:02:56,239 --> 03:03:00,000
conception of tradition and everything, But
like, even in talking with my parents,

2079
03:03:00,000 --> 03:03:03,600
parents who are staunchly Protestant, they
will be like, well, okay,

2080
03:03:03,680 --> 03:03:05,760
you can rely on oral tradition,
that's fine, but you don't know

2081
03:03:05,799 --> 03:03:09,440
what the world tradition is because it's
not written down. So how would you

2082
03:03:09,520 --> 03:03:13,399
respond to that? First of all? Sometimes hold on, so, first

2083
03:03:13,440 --> 03:03:16,719
of all, sometimes the world tradition
is written down. So we do have

2084
03:03:18,120 --> 03:03:20,920
a text in the Orthodox Church that
are written down, and those are things

2085
03:03:22,000 --> 03:03:24,120
like liturgy. So first of all, some of the world traditions are written.

2086
03:03:26,280 --> 03:03:28,440
Not everything has it's not. But
if the idea is that you can't

2087
03:03:28,479 --> 03:03:37,200
know it unless it's written, then
that would actually undercut Abraham. No.

2088
03:03:37,440 --> 03:03:39,760
Uh, I mean, we don't
have any record of any of that revelation

2089
03:03:39,879 --> 03:03:41,840
being written. So I guess they
didn't know God because it was all oral,

2090
03:03:43,879 --> 03:03:45,840
right, Yeah, And I think
a lot of that comes from at

2091
03:03:45,920 --> 03:03:48,040
least from what I see, Like
I'm still Protestant. I'm kind of in

2092
03:03:48,079 --> 03:03:50,680
a position where I can't become Orthodox
yet because I still live with them,

2093
03:03:52,840 --> 03:03:56,159
understand. But yeah, like from
what I see, like at least for

2094
03:03:56,280 --> 03:04:00,959
Church of Christ, because they're very
exclusive, they're like, we don't believe

2095
03:04:00,959 --> 03:04:03,319
in any of the denominations. Were
the one future, right kind of yaird

2096
03:04:03,399 --> 03:04:07,079
to me, but I think it
comes from like they look at history and

2097
03:04:07,440 --> 03:04:09,920
this is what I've done too,
So I'm still kind of struggling with this

2098
03:04:09,079 --> 03:04:13,600
is like looking back at history and
being like, well it doesn't fit my

2099
03:04:13,719 --> 03:04:16,920
conception of my interpretation of scripture.
So yeah, so it's a blackout,

2100
03:04:18,079 --> 03:04:22,840
right, There's a blackout until Alexander
Campbell and the cambelights. Right. Then

2101
03:04:22,879 --> 03:04:28,200
one last question, another thing that
my professor mentioned, and I wanted to

2102
03:04:28,280 --> 03:04:31,479
challenge him on this because I've been
reading that formulation of the Christian Biblical canon

2103
03:04:31,559 --> 03:04:35,079
that she recommended. But I brought
up, how well, like the canon

2104
03:04:35,200 --> 03:04:37,639
wasn't decided until later centuries, right, that seems to be a historical fact,

2105
03:04:39,079 --> 03:04:41,479
And he was like, oh well
no, it was like it was

2106
03:04:41,520 --> 03:04:43,479
agreed upon, and that's an argument. I hear a lot from positive okay,

2107
03:04:43,799 --> 03:04:46,719
by whom and where? I mean
just saying that it's not an argument,

2108
03:04:46,760 --> 03:04:50,639
it's a social right. Like,
but that's something I still hear is

2109
03:04:50,719 --> 03:04:54,360
like, well it was already like
agreed upon, but the council just confirmed

2110
03:04:54,399 --> 03:04:58,479
it. And again like, well
they have to demonstrate that, so demonstrate

2111
03:04:58,520 --> 03:05:01,879
there where from whom? What's the
proof of this. That's just an assertion,

2112
03:05:03,879 --> 03:05:07,680
right. And then finally, if
I was to join an Orthodox church

2113
03:05:07,840 --> 03:05:11,440
kind of where I'm looking to live
in the future, there's there's an Orthodox

2114
03:05:11,559 --> 03:05:16,040
Church that's in the kind of like
the Russian jurisdiction, like ro corpor whatever

2115
03:05:16,079 --> 03:05:22,799
it's called. And then then there's
a American Orthodox Church. Would you say

2116
03:05:22,920 --> 03:05:24,399
that, like, what would you
say? Which one should I join?

2117
03:05:24,600 --> 03:05:28,920
Like, I don't know what American
Orthodox Church is O C A yeah,

2118
03:05:30,079 --> 03:05:35,120
what was the other options? The
it was like the Russian Orthodox Church outside

2119
03:05:35,159 --> 03:05:37,559
of Russia. I'm not sure if
there's like A yeah, I would say

2120
03:05:37,680 --> 03:05:43,000
typically, I would say typically,
probably definitely go for the real Court Church.

2121
03:05:43,120 --> 03:05:46,440
Let's see. Moving on to Aiden. What's up Aiden? So again

2122
03:05:46,479 --> 03:05:50,680
tonight if you disagree, it's for
you, bring on your disagreements, your

2123
03:05:50,760 --> 03:05:58,079
challenges, your arguments for Roman Catholicism, Papacy, Protestantism, Islam, Atheism,

2124
03:06:00,200 --> 03:06:09,520
Hinduism, Muslimism. Jim Jones is
hello, yes, sir, Oh

2125
03:06:09,680 --> 03:06:13,680
finally, Jesus, I'm sorry for
last time. Basically, I just have

2126
03:06:13,040 --> 03:06:18,239
a ton of questions after reading uh
some of Manly p Hall's where it's not

2127
03:06:18,600 --> 03:06:24,399
okay, but what there's an argument
or what. Uh, Basically, Christianity

2128
03:06:24,559 --> 03:06:28,959
is like super dogmatic against other religions, and I don't think it takes it

2129
03:06:30,079 --> 03:06:33,760
into account what they're really trying to
teach. I learned that in one of

2130
03:06:33,959 --> 03:06:39,680
in the Secret Teachings of All Ages, Uh, they say that the polytheistic

2131
03:06:39,879 --> 03:06:46,200
religions like Paganism are actually meant to
express elementals of the One God. So

2132
03:06:46,399 --> 03:06:52,840
it is mono theism essentially. Well, that's called thesm. That's not monotheism.

2133
03:06:54,319 --> 03:06:58,719
Hmm. Yeah, I don't.
I don't deeply research all of it.

2134
03:06:58,799 --> 03:07:07,799
But if you have multiple elements representing
one God as you do, like

2135
03:07:07,000 --> 03:07:13,559
angels working for the same God,
isn't that essentially the same? Now that's

2136
03:07:13,600 --> 03:07:22,200
what it's called henotheism and not monotheism. Hmm okay. Also, why would

2137
03:07:22,239 --> 03:07:28,559
you think Manley P. Hall is
a viable source on this? Why why

2138
03:07:28,559 --> 03:07:35,319
would you think that he's who we
would go to? Uh? Basically I

2139
03:07:35,840 --> 03:07:41,360
looked into how certain sacred teachings were
taken in hidden like like in the Masonic

2140
03:07:41,440 --> 03:07:45,959
lodges and stuff. He is.
Yeah, but you know that Mason's lie,

2141
03:07:46,479 --> 03:07:48,280
right, you know that's in morals
endogma, Right, People lie.

2142
03:07:50,280 --> 03:07:54,200
Okay, but I'm specifically talking about
Masonic teaching that they delude the public and

2143
03:07:54,239 --> 03:08:00,399
the lower ranks. Do you think
that's what Manley P. Hall was doing?

2144
03:08:01,040 --> 03:08:05,520
Absolutely? Read if you read Secret
Destiny of America, it's a lot

2145
03:08:05,559 --> 03:08:11,360
of bullshit. It's made up nonsense. It's Gibbs Secret Destiny. Okay,

2146
03:08:11,399 --> 03:08:16,840
But there were some things that caught
my eye. He said that Jesus said

2147
03:08:16,239 --> 03:08:22,600
that he told his followers to be
wise as serpents, and that serpents were

2148
03:08:22,719 --> 03:08:24,600
just a symbol of knowledge, which
I have seen many people agree with,

2149
03:08:26,159 --> 03:08:31,440
and that the serpent giving the fruit
of knowledge to Adam is a word concept

2150
03:08:31,479 --> 03:08:37,159
fallacy. Do you know what that
is? I heard you guys. Are

2151
03:08:37,239 --> 03:08:41,799
you talking to basically make mistranslation?
No? Okay, what do you mean?

2152
03:08:41,879 --> 03:08:46,559
So the word serpent in that context, there's a trait that that snakes

2153
03:08:46,600 --> 03:08:50,680
have, which is to be cunning. So Jesus is saying not to be

2154
03:08:50,760 --> 03:08:54,280
stupid and foolish, but to have
wisdom and to have some cunning to operate

2155
03:08:54,319 --> 03:08:58,799
in this world. He's not telling
you to be like the fallen angel in

2156
03:08:58,879 --> 03:09:03,000
Genesis. That's even worse than being
wise, to be cunning, telling your

2157
03:09:03,040 --> 03:09:07,680
followers to be cunning. Well,
there's nothing there's nothing inherently wrong with being

2158
03:09:07,920 --> 03:09:11,280
wise and cunning in the way that
you deal in this world. That's what

2159
03:09:11,399 --> 03:09:15,559
I think. I think that we
have all of these symbols that we perverted

2160
03:09:16,159 --> 03:09:18,840
and turned into like some crazy Let's
just cut it. Let's just cut to

2161
03:09:18,920 --> 03:09:20,799
the chase. Let's just cut to
the chase. Freemasonry is bullshit. So

2162
03:09:20,879 --> 03:09:26,000
you're just arguing about the bullshit.
How do I know? Because what it

2163
03:09:26,120 --> 03:09:30,719
teaches is lies and deception and it
doesn't even have a coherent Ultimately, it's

2164
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:35,680
atheistic, but it's really not,
though, because it teaches you how to

2165
03:09:35,000 --> 03:09:39,760
center yourself and connect. What does
that even mean? What does that even

2166
03:09:39,840 --> 03:09:46,360
mean? What's the divine? Basically
God? I mean basically because there's a

2167
03:09:46,399 --> 03:09:52,440
million different ideas about what that is? What's the God? And Masonry ultimately

2168
03:09:52,520 --> 03:09:56,399
ends up it ends up ultimately,
it ends up being worshiping yourself. So

2169
03:09:56,520 --> 03:10:01,200
it's just a stupid delusion. And
that's why they tell you. Yeah,

2170
03:10:01,319 --> 03:10:05,920
that's why they tell that to me. That's why in Morals and Dogma,

2171
03:10:07,000 --> 03:10:11,040
which is the bible of Freemasonry,
it says to delude and deceit it is,

2172
03:10:11,239 --> 03:10:13,719
it says, to delude and deceive
the lower ranks. So how do

2173
03:10:13,799 --> 03:10:18,000
you how do you know you're not
being deluded to deceive. I just believe

2174
03:10:18,120 --> 03:10:24,319
that Manly Hall himself wasn't out to
cause harm in the way that someone like

2175
03:10:24,680 --> 03:10:28,840
Alistair Crowley was like talking about all. Well, that's just you don't think

2176
03:10:28,920 --> 03:10:33,600
people can be one side of the
coin like as opposed to everyone is evil.

2177
03:10:33,680 --> 03:10:39,239
Everyone in Freemasonry is evil the teachings
of Freemason. I don't care what

2178
03:10:39,719 --> 03:10:43,440
mainly Pall's personal life was. I'm
saying the teachings of the philosophy and the

2179
03:10:43,799 --> 03:10:50,920
teachings of Masonry are objectively false and
easy to refute. M I mean as

2180
03:10:52,399 --> 03:10:54,520
anyone could say that about anything,
though people know I'm ready to. I'm

2181
03:10:54,520 --> 03:10:58,799
ready to. I'm ready to dem
sky Daddy that reincarnated as a as a

2182
03:11:00,120 --> 03:11:03,760
as a man, but he's also
the spirit the moment. So there,

2183
03:11:03,799 --> 03:11:07,159
you don't even know what Christian theology
teaches, so showing that you're confused,

2184
03:11:07,239 --> 03:11:13,520
so you have no idea what we
even believe. So you have no idea

2185
03:11:13,520 --> 03:11:16,600
what you're talking about. Here's the
thing. I don't discredit any of that.

2186
03:11:16,760 --> 03:11:22,120
I think that every religion has some
piece that is true. So let's

2187
03:11:22,159 --> 03:11:26,399
talk about that. Okay, how
do you know that that proposition or there

2188
03:11:26,479 --> 03:11:31,399
is true? Because, and here's
the thing, there's actually starting to be

2189
03:11:31,520 --> 03:11:37,000
physical evidence of these giant megaliths that
no one knew how was How does megaliths

2190
03:11:37,159 --> 03:11:39,280
tell you that that proposition is true? You don't even understand what I'm asking.

2191
03:11:41,840 --> 03:11:43,200
You don't even know what I'm talking
about. No clue what I'm talking

2192
03:11:43,239 --> 03:11:48,879
about the proposition that there's truth in
all the religions. I said, how

2193
03:11:48,920 --> 03:11:50,079
do you know that proposition is true? Let's go to that. Let's start

2194
03:11:50,120 --> 03:11:56,200
with that's your star. Do you
understand that? Your answers your answers,

2195
03:11:56,159 --> 03:12:00,680
no, because your answers are not
explaining how that proposition is true. You're

2196
03:12:00,719 --> 03:12:03,639
not letting me get to it though, because it's not an answer. There

2197
03:12:03,719 --> 03:12:07,479
are ancient, sophisticated pyramids on that
doesn't answer the You don't even understand the

2198
03:12:07,559 --> 03:12:13,319
argument. I'm gonna boot you until
you demonstrate to me that you understand the

2199
03:12:13,399 --> 03:12:20,680
argument I'm making. Okay, you
made a claim that all the world religions

2200
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:26,000
have truth in them. That's your
that's your starting point, right, I

2201
03:12:26,120 --> 03:12:28,440
want to know how you, as
an individual know that that is true when

2202
03:12:28,479 --> 03:12:31,879
you start going to the ancient world
religions, that's your interpretation of the ancient

2203
03:12:31,879 --> 03:12:35,959
world religion. That doesn't tell me
that that proposition is true. I want

2204
03:12:35,000 --> 03:12:41,680
to know how you know thattations all
of our interpretations is not. That's not

2205
03:12:41,799 --> 03:12:45,120
true. That's false. It is
not all of our interpretations. All of

2206
03:12:45,120 --> 03:12:48,959
the human beings do not interpret that
to be true. So that's not a

2207
03:12:48,000 --> 03:12:54,280
thing that you can appeal to.
Right, many humans believe this is wrong.

2208
03:12:56,200 --> 03:13:01,440
So that is nothing. So that's
a fallacy. That's fallacy how because

2209
03:13:01,479 --> 03:13:03,760
it doesn't You could watch the laws
in America, a Christian country, changed

2210
03:13:03,799 --> 03:13:07,639
overnight, I mean one century.
Don't you don't even know what we're talking

2211
03:13:07,680 --> 03:13:11,399
about? You literally, you're just
talking. You're just talking. Do you

2212
03:13:11,479 --> 03:13:15,000
know what I'm You don't even understand
what I'm asking for. I want epistemic

2213
03:13:15,159 --> 03:13:18,520
justification for the claim. Do you
know what that means? I'm not a

2214
03:13:18,559 --> 03:13:22,280
big word guy, bro, I'm
just so these aren't good arguments. It's

2215
03:13:22,280 --> 03:13:26,719
not about the words, it's about
bad arguments. Do you understand that?

2216
03:13:26,879 --> 03:13:30,920
I feel like you're blocking it out
a little bit, bro. I mean,

2217
03:13:30,959 --> 03:13:33,959
there's there's there's evidence of ancient sophisticated
technology all around the world. No

2218
03:13:33,959 --> 03:13:37,959
one knows who did an none of
that. Even if that's true, you

2219
03:13:39,000 --> 03:13:43,959
don't understand. You don't understand.
Even if that's true, it doesn't prove

2220
03:13:43,000 --> 03:13:48,159
the first proposition. How does you
could look at the evidence? It's like

2221
03:13:48,159 --> 03:13:52,040
an eighty ton stone lifted into it
a complexity. You don't even understand the

2222
03:13:52,159 --> 03:13:56,559
argument, why did they do this? And and those religions are going all

2223
03:13:56,559 --> 03:14:00,440
the way back to both the Atlantean
priest king all that stuff. This is

2224
03:14:00,479 --> 03:14:05,680
all gibberish, and it doesn't prove
they were talking about solar worship through Christianity,

2225
03:14:05,680 --> 03:14:09,000
which is a pagan thing. It's
a pagan thing. And you guys

2226
03:14:09,200 --> 03:14:13,879
are like, oh, where's all
the pagan You're not even you're not even

2227
03:14:13,840 --> 03:14:18,079
You're not even at that level one
of understanding what the argument even is.

2228
03:14:18,479 --> 03:14:20,479
You have no clue what you're talking
about. And so I ask you basic

2229
03:14:20,639 --> 03:14:24,319
questions and you fly off into these
claims about megaliths that has nothing to do

2230
03:14:24,479 --> 03:14:30,440
with justifying the claim on the planet. It's right there on the planet.

2231
03:14:30,520 --> 03:14:33,559
Do you understand that that's do you
understand that that is a bunch of Jewish

2232
03:14:33,559 --> 03:14:37,040
people with ropes dragging things around it? Do you understand that that's not an

2233
03:14:37,239 --> 03:14:39,799
You don't even under what do you
think an argument is? Do you think

2234
03:14:39,840 --> 03:14:43,200
it's just spouting out megalith stuff that's
an argument for? Do you understand that

2235
03:14:43,280 --> 03:14:48,559
that doesn't justify the claim? No, but I'm going back to these teachings

2236
03:14:48,799 --> 03:14:52,840
that go that none of that you're
not addressed. It's not an argument.

2237
03:14:52,959 --> 03:14:56,239
Do you understand it's a fallacy?
All the things that you're saying in logic

2238
03:14:56,360 --> 03:15:01,840
or fallacious moves? What do you
mean exactly? So? If you're gonna

2239
03:15:01,879 --> 03:15:03,479
make these arguments, you need to
learn those things first. What do I

2240
03:15:03,559 --> 03:15:09,600
mean you don't even know? Do
you know you have things written? Dude?

2241
03:15:09,920 --> 03:15:11,600
If you don't know what a fallacy
is, what's on your paper is

2242
03:15:11,639 --> 03:15:15,000
not going to do anything for it. Like a vocab guy, what are

2243
03:15:15,040 --> 03:15:16,680
you doing? It's like I'm giving
you an action, a vo cab guy,

2244
03:15:18,399 --> 03:15:20,719
and you're going you don't know this
word. You're an idiot. That's

2245
03:15:20,799 --> 03:15:26,639
not that's not a debate either.
You're an empathetical epiological fallacy. It doesn't

2246
03:15:26,680 --> 03:15:28,399
make any sense. I mean,
I have all these questions. You're just

2247
03:15:28,479 --> 03:15:31,239
making an idiot of yourself. Man, I'm sorry, you're making an idiot

2248
03:15:31,280 --> 03:15:35,639
of yourself. Empathetical. That's not
even a you're making. It's not even

2249
03:15:35,680 --> 03:15:39,360
a word, empathetical fallacy. No, that's why I'm I'm I'm I'm making

2250
03:15:39,399 --> 03:15:43,799
an impression of you. Yeah,
but you're just making yourself look silly,

2251
03:15:43,879 --> 03:15:50,280
and you're making yourself look silly.
I'm giving you some real ship. But

2252
03:15:50,479 --> 03:15:54,159
I listen, can you tell me
what a fallacy is? Like the teaching

2253
03:15:54,200 --> 03:15:58,159
of duality? Can you tell me
what a fallacy is? Because you don't

2254
03:15:58,200 --> 03:16:01,600
know the basics of philosophy and that
if you're gonna make arguments, you need

2255
03:16:01,639 --> 03:16:05,799
to know this thing. I'm giving
you my stance and you're going, you

2256
03:16:05,840 --> 03:16:09,280
don't know this vocab. It's not
the voc you don't know the vocab or

2257
03:16:09,319 --> 03:16:11,959
what the vocab meaning. Books.
You've read like a million books. I'm

2258
03:16:11,959 --> 03:16:15,280
trying to get some knowledge and you're
going, you don't know this word.

2259
03:16:15,879 --> 03:16:18,159
What the hell? Bro, you're
trying to make an argument. You're too

2260
03:16:18,239 --> 03:16:22,600
dumb to even know what we're talking
about. You're trying to make an argument.

2261
03:16:22,920 --> 03:16:24,200
This is the thing you Christians?
Oh, you guys are so dumb.

2262
03:16:24,239 --> 03:16:28,040
You guys are so dumb. Thousands
of religions before you, guys,

2263
03:16:28,079 --> 03:16:31,200
before you guys got all So you're
spurging out. Do you know? Do

2264
03:16:31,280 --> 03:16:33,879
you know what a fallacy is?
You can't even tell me what a fallacy

2265
03:16:35,000 --> 03:16:37,719
is? What is it? Bro, I'm not a book nerd. So

2266
03:16:37,840 --> 03:16:41,399
you just made a complete this is
so, this is what? This is

2267
03:16:41,440 --> 03:16:46,239
what masonry gets you. This is
what masonry gets you. Is this it's

2268
03:16:46,280 --> 03:17:05,639
a complete good grief? Oh my
gosh. So you notice how people just

2269
03:17:05,760 --> 03:17:09,079
like spurg Out, They keep you
keep asking them the same questions. He

2270
03:17:09,159 --> 03:17:13,159
doesn't even understand what a non sequitary
is, and then he gets his feelings

2271
03:17:13,239 --> 03:17:16,280
hurt because he thinks I'm using bad
big words to like insult him or something.

2272
03:17:16,920 --> 03:17:20,600
If you're gonna make arguments, you
have to abide by the rules of

2273
03:17:20,719 --> 03:17:24,639
argumentation. Those aren't arbitrary, They're
not fancy words that people just made up

2274
03:17:24,680 --> 03:17:28,639
to sound smart. It's just like
playing chess. There's rules to chess,

2275
03:17:30,639 --> 03:17:35,319
so likewise, an argumentation, there's
rules to argumentation. And he doesn't even

2276
03:17:35,360 --> 03:17:37,000
know that. He doesn't even know
what a fallacy is. Just complete nonsense.

2277
03:17:37,719 --> 03:17:48,040
What's up? Daygire. Oh,
hello, m I just had a

2278
03:17:48,159 --> 03:17:54,719
question about the about churches in my
area. That's not the topic today,

2279
03:17:54,760 --> 03:18:03,000
man, But what's your what?
I got a question, and that's an

2280
03:18:03,079 --> 03:18:09,399
argumentative question. Uh huh, what's
that? Yeah? What is it?

2281
03:18:13,239 --> 03:18:20,200
He leaves. So, so we
see by this example that freemasonry and the

2282
03:18:20,280 --> 03:18:22,639
philosophy of freemasonry and reading Manley P. Hall, who, by the way,

2283
03:18:22,799 --> 03:18:24,920
is a complete goof is if you
read, if you listen to his

2284
03:18:26,040 --> 03:18:28,360
lectures on astrology. He ends the
whole lecture course by saying that, by

2285
03:18:28,399 --> 03:18:31,719
the way, the purpose of this
whole lecture course is to get you to

2286
03:18:31,000 --> 03:18:39,079
believe in socialism in the United Nations. So so we're opening up to people

2287
03:18:39,079 --> 03:18:43,959
who disagree if you have an argument, and an argument is not arguing,

2288
03:18:43,079 --> 03:18:48,559
it's not machine gunning out idiocy about
megalithic marvels which have nothing to do with

2289
03:18:48,719 --> 03:18:52,200
whether the proposition that you started your
arguing with is true. See, maybe

2290
03:18:52,280 --> 03:18:56,959
there are aliens and megalithic marbles and
all this stuff, but that doesn't mean

2291
03:18:56,040 --> 03:19:00,760
that the first proposition that all the
world religions have truth in them. I

2292
03:19:00,879 --> 03:19:03,280
just want to know how you know
that that's true. Maybe it is true.

2293
03:19:03,399 --> 03:19:05,440
How do you know it's true?
Well, mogaalithic marvels. That doesn't

2294
03:19:05,559 --> 03:19:11,239
prove that proposition. I mean,
it's like, let's take a let's take

2295
03:19:11,319 --> 03:19:15,000
on a pistemology one on one class. Quit bitching about big words. I

2296
03:19:15,040 --> 03:19:16,200
mean, come on, dude,
you're an adult. If you want to

2297
03:19:16,239 --> 03:19:20,200
be an adult and be treated like
an adult, don't come bitching about me

2298
03:19:20,319 --> 03:19:28,360
using big words. Learn the big
words. It's ridiculous. So we got

2299
03:19:28,440 --> 03:19:31,639
three people who've already been on asking
questions, and I'm asking them. I'm

2300
03:19:31,639 --> 03:19:33,799
looking for people who disagree. So
you guys just want to come on,

2301
03:19:33,200 --> 03:19:41,680
But who are the people who disagree? So, I mean you people that

2302
03:19:41,760 --> 03:19:46,120
spurg out like you can't even walk
them through an argument. They just they

2303
03:19:46,280 --> 03:19:50,239
just they're like just you know,
there's like, I don't know, a

2304
03:19:50,319 --> 03:19:54,760
blender. They're like they're like Taz, right, like more like spinning in

2305
03:19:54,840 --> 03:20:00,319
a circle like Taz. You know, the freaking Hannah Barbara whatever character.

2306
03:20:00,600 --> 03:20:05,879
What's up, Novus? Yeah,
I just had a question about canonical jurisdictions,

2307
03:20:05,879 --> 03:20:09,680
because that's not what we're talking about
tonight. I'm not turning to me

2308
03:20:09,719 --> 03:20:11,959
into you. The topic is not
canons and jurisdictions. I've already said that

2309
03:20:13,040 --> 03:20:18,399
like challenge, it will be a
challenge to Orthodoxy. So they belong to

2310
03:20:18,479 --> 03:20:22,399
the World Council of Courages. They
don't all belong to the World Council of

2311
03:20:22,440 --> 03:20:28,840
Churches. It's not true. There's
multiple jurisdictions that don't. So what are

2312
03:20:28,840 --> 03:20:31,760
you talking about? Do the Big
five of Russians do? Right? I

2313
03:20:31,799 --> 03:20:35,639
don't remember exactly what. I don't
think Rokor does. There might be some

2314
03:20:35,799 --> 03:20:41,239
jurisdictions that do. But what the
Russians are listed and and so we're like

2315
03:20:41,319 --> 03:20:45,280
the top five of them, Mark. So my question is for this,

2316
03:20:46,280 --> 03:20:50,120
we an Orthodoxy go around defending Orthodoxy
against all these type of what we call

2317
03:20:50,239 --> 03:20:54,479
heresies, which they are. But
we belong to an organization that promotes diversity,

2318
03:20:54,520 --> 03:20:58,959
equity, inclusion, which the Georgian
Church left because they were promoting homosexuality

2319
03:21:00,559 --> 03:21:03,600
and women priests about thirty years ago. So how do we reconcile that?

2320
03:21:03,840 --> 03:21:07,399
I don't I don't think anybody should
be a member of that, but membership

2321
03:21:07,479 --> 03:21:11,840
probably means that they go and they
present papers at conferences. It's like it's

2322
03:21:11,920 --> 03:21:16,959
like the IOTA conference that FDA goes
to like membership in That does not mean

2323
03:21:18,000 --> 03:21:22,399
that FDA supports everything that IOTA does. But I agree that there's there's not

2324
03:21:22,479 --> 03:21:26,239
really any point in being involved in
that. They also contribute financially to which

2325
03:21:26,319 --> 03:21:31,920
is the issue? Which is what? Which is the issue? Because they're

2326
03:21:31,959 --> 03:21:37,120
supporting it. It's following a United
Nations Agenda twenty thirty. Well, hold

2327
03:21:37,159 --> 03:21:39,159
on, how do you know that? How do you know that the Russian

2328
03:21:39,239 --> 03:21:43,840
Church gives money to the World Council
churches? Because when you look up who

2329
03:21:43,959 --> 03:21:48,680
supports the World Council as well support
it, it's the members of the Council.

2330
03:21:50,040 --> 03:21:52,799
How do you know that that means
that there's monetary donations? I mean,

2331
03:21:52,840 --> 03:21:54,440
if there is, I disagree with
it. But does that Well,

2332
03:21:54,520 --> 03:21:58,200
that's what I looked at. Financially, who supports it? And that's what

2333
03:21:58,280 --> 03:22:01,440
at least it's said. It's stating
that I should say, Uh, yeah,

2334
03:22:01,680 --> 03:22:07,600
I've said that that's not a good
idea. All right, all right,

2335
03:22:07,639 --> 03:22:41,159
that's all I have appreciate it.
H Now, I'm curious, Novous,

2336
03:22:41,280 --> 03:22:50,440
because a lot of your posts talk
about Coptic Christianity. No I was

2337
03:22:50,559 --> 03:22:58,840
arguing with the topic recently and Oriental
Okay, Well, I did if you,

2338
03:22:58,959 --> 03:23:01,079
you know, if you don't want
what we talked about over here,

2339
03:23:01,120 --> 03:23:16,360
it's fine, uh, pink,
it's probably because I don't have a beard,

2340
03:23:16,639 --> 03:23:20,280
because really the only way to be
Orthodox is like how long your beard

2341
03:23:20,399 --> 03:23:24,719
is, Like the length of the
beard is literally like the test of the

2342
03:23:24,879 --> 03:23:37,760
orthodoxy. Pink, shirpa, what's
up here? You're a character? Yeah,

2343
03:23:37,840 --> 03:23:41,040
no you are. You're cracking me
up. So I have a question.

2344
03:23:43,239 --> 03:23:48,440
It's interesting because like I literally just
I went to like I'm Roman Catholic,

2345
03:23:48,840 --> 03:23:54,559
and I went to like a Catechism
class after a Mass today while my

2346
03:23:54,719 --> 03:24:00,840
kid was that religious ed and and
we actually were going over this section of

2347
03:24:00,920 --> 03:24:07,840
the Catechism regarding ordination and then you
know, when a priest is something heinous,

2348
03:24:07,920 --> 03:24:15,840
you know, their capability of still
performing like you know, the substantiation

2349
03:24:16,040 --> 03:24:20,399
and all that grow. But I
that's not what I wanted to ask you.

2350
03:24:20,600 --> 03:24:24,559
I had a question that was actually
something I was going to ask in

2351
03:24:24,639 --> 03:24:31,200
my class today. But I realized
that pertains not only to Roman Catholicism,

2352
03:24:31,360 --> 03:24:39,879
but also possibly Orthodox Christianity, and
that is like, okay, so it

2353
03:24:39,959 --> 03:24:45,120
is hard for me articulate. But
recently I was reading through and I don't

2354
03:24:45,159 --> 03:24:50,360
remember which part of the Bible it's
in, but it's when Jesus rebukes the

2355
03:24:50,520 --> 03:24:56,680
rabbis in the temple as like a
pretty big event, right, and chastises

2356
03:24:56,760 --> 03:25:01,079
them for million a million things.
But when I read that, I hear

2357
03:25:03,399 --> 03:25:09,719
a message that is pretty much eternal, that in all of your rituals you

2358
03:25:09,879 --> 03:25:16,000
can still be completely defunct, and
and that at that point in history.

2359
03:25:16,280 --> 03:25:20,760
I want to speak about today,
but at that point in history, they

2360
03:25:20,000 --> 03:25:28,200
just lost all meaning behind all of
the rituals that they were performing. And

2361
03:25:28,520 --> 03:25:31,520
you know it, yeah, I
mean many of the prophets say this,

2362
03:25:31,680 --> 03:25:33,920
Isaiah says this, Jeremiah says this. You approach me with you know?

2363
03:25:35,040 --> 03:25:41,920
So my question is then, and
I was going to pose this in in

2364
03:25:41,079 --> 03:25:46,479
my in the class today, but
it's we didn't get to it. We

2365
03:25:46,719 --> 03:25:50,200
got stuck on another topic. But
is you know, how do we walk

2366
03:25:50,319 --> 03:25:56,040
that line? Because I feel like
sometimes we lose perspective when we do these

2367
03:25:56,159 --> 03:26:01,000
kinds of debates, which I I
believe me, I believe in our rights.

2368
03:26:01,239 --> 03:26:05,239
I sense that you have some hostility
to the Catholic Church. I personally

2369
03:26:05,239 --> 03:26:09,680
would like to see us reunified at
some point in history. I mean,

2370
03:26:09,719 --> 03:26:13,239
I will probably won't live to see
that day, but I would like to

2371
03:26:13,319 --> 03:26:18,920
see you know, the churches UH
unified against I don't. I don't have

2372
03:26:18,040 --> 03:26:22,920
any hostilities at all towards Eastern Orthodox, any of the Eastern Right churches.

2373
03:26:22,959 --> 03:26:28,520
Okay, but the problem is that
the reunification requires us to join into a

2374
03:26:28,559 --> 03:26:31,360
spiritual communion with Pope Francis and the
rest of the goblins in Rome. And

2375
03:26:31,479 --> 03:26:35,440
that's the problem. Okay, Well, you don't need to insult me.

2376
03:26:37,360 --> 03:26:41,399
How was I insulting you by saying
the goblins in Rome? Because you're calling

2377
03:26:41,760 --> 03:26:46,840
the people that I care about very
much, you're calling them goblins. And

2378
03:26:46,879 --> 03:26:50,120
whether or not you I mean,
have you read producio supplicants? I mean,

2379
03:26:50,159 --> 03:26:54,719
they're promoting schedule. You haven't even
answered my question. And see this

2380
03:26:54,959 --> 03:26:56,000
is this, I mean, you're
I'm not mad at you. I'm just

2381
03:26:56,079 --> 03:27:00,239
asking you a question. Bro,
if you if you want to, you

2382
03:27:00,319 --> 03:27:03,799
know, keep it that you know
above. Look, I'm not mad at

2383
03:27:03,799 --> 03:27:05,920
you. I'm just I'm asking you. Look you're the one. Hey,

2384
03:27:05,959 --> 03:27:09,159
Look, I'm not mad. I'm
just asking you a question about But you

2385
03:27:09,399 --> 03:27:13,760
just you're just curtailed insults at me. I mean, I always going to

2386
03:27:13,840 --> 03:27:16,319
ask you an honest question, the
question, are you a goblin in Rome?

2387
03:27:16,399 --> 03:27:20,159
You're not. You're not a cardinal. That's where you lose your credibility

2388
03:27:20,399 --> 03:27:26,639
is because you can't just come and
have like an interreligious dialogue. It boils

2389
03:27:26,719 --> 03:27:30,200
down to a dispute over richal you
took personal. It's not a dispute over

2390
03:27:30,319 --> 03:27:33,520
rituals you took personally. The question
why don't you why don't you calm down?

2391
03:27:33,719 --> 03:27:39,799
You're you're the one that's upset.
You're you're gapping. Listen, calm

2392
03:27:39,879 --> 03:27:41,559
down for a second, just chill. No. I know you want to

2393
03:27:41,639 --> 03:27:46,000
control your show, but you do
need to let me speak. If if

2394
03:27:46,120 --> 03:27:50,079
I mean I'm explaining something, I'm
explaining something to you. I'm not stopping

2395
03:27:50,120 --> 03:27:54,879
you from speaking. You can try
and explain something to me. I'm not.

2396
03:27:54,159 --> 03:27:58,120
I'm not stopping you from speaking.
I'm explaining that if I criticize the

2397
03:27:58,200 --> 03:28:01,959
goblins in Rome, that's not you
shouldn't take that personal. I'm talking about

2398
03:28:03,000 --> 03:28:07,120
corrupt people in Rome. That's not
you personally. Okay, but that doesn't

2399
03:28:07,159 --> 03:28:13,079
answer my question. And you're kind
of begging the question when you courtail insults

2400
03:28:13,120 --> 03:28:16,159
instead of trying to have an interview. That's that's called rhetoric. Are you

2401
03:28:16,239 --> 03:28:18,479
familiar with rhetoric. It's where you
joke in the midst of making an argument.

2402
03:28:20,280 --> 03:28:24,200
One, I'm a lawyer, and
two I majored in philosophy and I

2403
03:28:24,280 --> 03:28:26,959
went to Catholic schools for sixteen years
and I have a law degree, So

2404
03:28:26,040 --> 03:28:30,399
I really know what well you can
tell your career, right, So joking

2405
03:28:30,440 --> 03:28:33,120
as part of rhetoric. If you're
mature enough, I would like to hear

2406
03:28:33,479 --> 03:28:39,239
your your perspective on that very thoroughly
tailored question which you don't want to address.

2407
03:28:39,559 --> 03:28:43,319
I'm happy to address any of your
arguments, and I do it all

2408
03:28:43,360 --> 03:28:46,799
the time every day. First of
all, religious listen, I know that

2409
03:28:46,840 --> 03:28:50,760
you're used to spouting out, but
this is not your show, So chill

2410
03:28:50,840 --> 03:28:54,280
out. Chill out for a second, just stop yapping for a second.

2411
03:28:54,479 --> 03:28:58,120
And I'm happy to answer your question
well, because I'm trying to restate my

2412
03:28:58,280 --> 03:29:01,799
question that I would like you to
answer. And in all can I point

2413
03:29:01,840 --> 03:29:05,920
out that there's a thing I disagree
with. I disagree with the way you

2414
03:29:05,000 --> 03:29:09,879
worded it, that it's a disagreement
of rituals. It's not a disagreement of

2415
03:29:09,959 --> 03:29:13,159
rituals. It's a disagreement of the
theology. That's the first point. So

2416
03:29:13,239 --> 03:29:22,319
it's not just rituals. Okay,
keep talking. It sounds like you're on

2417
03:29:22,360 --> 03:29:24,639
the right track. You're actually trying
to answer the question. Now. Yeah,

2418
03:29:24,639 --> 03:29:28,159
I've always been answering the question.
But I like to make jokes when

2419
03:29:28,159 --> 03:29:30,879
I answer the question because that's part
of rhetoric. You should know that you're

2420
03:29:30,920 --> 03:29:35,360
a lawyer. You have degrees,
right, Sorry, are you trying to

2421
03:29:35,680 --> 03:29:41,200
curtail insults again? You're a lawyer. You started touting your credentials. You

2422
03:29:41,280 --> 03:29:45,639
said you know rhetoric. Doesn't rhetoric
include jokes and jabs. Supposed to be

2423
03:29:45,799 --> 03:29:48,719
theologian? I mean you should be
and how to be respectful in a debate.

2424
03:29:48,879 --> 03:29:52,920
I know I don't claim to be
a theologian. I've debated the top

2425
03:29:52,959 --> 03:29:54,440
people in the world. So you
want to talk about credentials. I'm one

2426
03:29:54,440 --> 03:30:01,520
of the top debaters out there.
Okay, I mean that, is that

2427
03:30:01,639 --> 03:30:05,520
true or false? You're a real
funny character. You're a character? Is

2428
03:30:05,559 --> 03:30:09,040
it true or false? Do you
are you aware of that? I'm not

2429
03:30:09,200 --> 03:30:13,799
answering your questions, I'm asking you
the question, So go on and talk

2430
03:30:13,799 --> 03:30:16,639
about it. I mean, it's
a legitimate question. I'm interested in hearing

2431
03:30:16,719 --> 03:30:22,440
your perfect minus the insults. Again, you can do that if you're mature

2432
03:30:22,520 --> 03:30:26,600
enough, if you can listen.
So you can't. So if I make

2433
03:30:26,680 --> 03:30:30,559
a joke about listen, if you
said that my patriarch was a corrupt goblin,

2434
03:30:30,600 --> 03:30:31,680
I wouldn't take that personally. I
would agree with you. Do you

2435
03:30:31,719 --> 03:30:35,680
see the difference there that you took
personal something that wasn't about you. I'm

2436
03:30:35,760 --> 03:30:39,000
not answering your questions. I'd like
you to answer. I mean, I

2437
03:30:39,079 --> 03:30:41,399
think in your mind you think this
is a law court. It's not.

2438
03:30:43,079 --> 03:30:52,520
It's a open form discussion. So
what's your question? What's your question?

2439
03:31:00,000 --> 03:31:07,159
What's your question? Are you gonna
unmute and ask your question? You've complained

2440
03:31:07,159 --> 03:31:13,879
about me making a joke. What's
your question? So you're not gonna stay

2441
03:31:13,920 --> 03:31:24,520
your question? Hello, you're still
here. I'm mute. What's your question?

2442
03:31:24,639 --> 03:31:26,920
This is? This is I'm not
enjoying. This is actually fun.

2443
03:31:28,360 --> 03:31:41,799
Pink Sherpa, are you there?
What is your question? So the point

2444
03:31:41,920 --> 03:31:48,959
is that the papacy promotes today skittles
topics, which is a complete contradiction to

2445
03:31:50,120 --> 03:31:54,520
previous people teaching. So That's why
I have such a disdain for the papacy

2446
03:31:54,600 --> 03:31:58,920
is that I think it's an organized
crime institution, and you took personal something

2447
03:32:00,079 --> 03:32:03,200
that wasn't personally about you. Are
you gonna come back on? Are you

2448
03:32:03,319 --> 03:32:09,040
just gonna sit here muted? All
right, We're gonna go on, move

2449
03:32:09,079 --> 03:32:30,959
on from that? Seven seven seven, I'm mute? All right? Are

2450
03:32:31,000 --> 03:32:33,799
gonna minute to say something quick?
Do you have an argument that you like

2451
03:32:33,840 --> 03:32:39,239
to present about the topics listed?
Yeah, I was gonna bring a different

2452
03:32:39,319 --> 03:32:43,000
kind of idea to the It's all
related. So the Bible says that sixty

2453
03:32:43,000 --> 03:32:46,399
sixty six is the number of a
man, and we have six protrons,

2454
03:32:46,440 --> 03:32:50,920
six neutrons, six electrons in our
carbon items, in our melanin and DNA.

2455
03:32:50,959 --> 03:32:52,680
It looks like there's nothing to do
with any of that. No,

2456
03:32:54,079 --> 03:32:58,040
but six is it looks like seven's
and Hebrew and Arabic and like ancient languages

2457
03:32:58,079 --> 03:33:01,159
and like that six letters, but
looks like a seven backwards and then Jesus

2458
03:33:03,079 --> 03:33:13,000
schizo stuff. No, goodbye,
roy R. What's up? I am

2459
03:33:13,040 --> 03:33:16,680
not a theologian. I list myself
as a comedian, and I'm happy.

2460
03:33:16,959 --> 03:33:22,360
I'm happy to transition. I'm gonna
transition into being today's stand up. Okay.

2461
03:33:24,399 --> 03:33:28,079
There's a lot of people out there
trying to say that they as a

2462
03:33:28,520 --> 03:33:33,440
religious lead. That's not me.
Okay, I am now officially calling myself

2463
03:33:33,680 --> 03:33:39,319
a comedian. Do y'all hear that? I am the king of comedy and

2464
03:33:39,440 --> 03:33:43,319
Tristan Haggard and all of these players
out here, all of these haters,

2465
03:33:43,840 --> 03:33:46,280
they are nothing to me. Okay, you heard it here. First twenty

2466
03:33:46,440 --> 03:33:52,760
twenty four is the year that truth
comes to light. Royard, what's up?

2467
03:33:52,799 --> 03:33:54,479
That's my cat Williams. By the
way, that's Kat Williams. That's

2468
03:33:54,520 --> 03:34:01,280
called a joke for those that don't
understand. Yeah. Uh. In terms

2469
03:34:01,280 --> 03:34:05,319
of open god debate, you mean
like like debating on God? Right?

2470
03:34:05,760 --> 03:34:16,559
Yeah? Correct, yes, sir
correct? Good soup? Why are you

2471
03:34:16,600 --> 03:34:24,440
there? Hello? Did you want
to make an argument about the God or

2472
03:34:24,479 --> 03:34:28,520
whatever? Dude, we lost him. Try to come back in if you

2473
03:34:28,559 --> 03:34:39,040
want to overlooked pictures. It's getting
wild tonight. It's wow, it's a

2474
03:34:39,159 --> 03:34:46,600
wild gnostic night. Go ahead,
you got an un mute dude. I'm

2475
03:34:46,600 --> 03:34:50,840
about to just start getting ridiculous or
wordculous. I'm about to start breaking out

2476
03:34:50,920 --> 03:34:54,319
the box wine, the Phransia.
I'm about to start being a wine mom

2477
03:34:54,399 --> 03:35:01,840
for y'all. I'm I'm gonna fill
up a big god full of Phronsie wine

2478
03:35:01,920 --> 03:35:07,000
mom wine, and I'm all bust
out Virginius lambs in between each of these

2479
03:35:07,120 --> 03:35:11,760
fangers, and I'm gonna puff them
all until they burn down to my fingers

2480
03:35:16,159 --> 03:35:20,639
overload picks. Do you want to
come on? I'm you. I was

2481
03:35:20,680 --> 03:35:26,479
waiting for the invite. I was
enjoying your your bit there. But thank

2482
03:35:26,559 --> 03:35:28,680
you, mister Dina. I'm not
sure how serious I've just dropped in,

2483
03:35:28,840 --> 03:35:31,639
not how serious the debate is really
going, but I do want to try

2484
03:35:31,639 --> 03:35:37,600
and serious things up a little bit. When it comes to the the thought

2485
03:35:37,639 --> 03:35:41,479
process of what some say, let's
just bracket into the type who believes and

2486
03:35:41,520 --> 03:35:46,520
the type who does not believe for
whatever reason, when it comes to the

2487
03:35:46,879 --> 03:35:54,280
question of revelation through a world that's
created and the role of faith when when

2488
03:35:54,319 --> 03:35:58,200
it comes to to an atheist is
used. An atheist the extreme example,

2489
03:35:58,319 --> 03:36:03,879
not an agnostic for someone who actively
disbelieves. When it comes to that sort

2490
03:36:03,879 --> 03:36:09,639
of mind mindset of thinking. If
if we posit the idea of a creator

2491
03:36:09,719 --> 03:36:13,760
who for whatever reason requires something more
than just mirror observation, something that a

2492
03:36:13,840 --> 03:36:16,639
machine could do, you know,
to register its environment. This kind of

2493
03:36:16,719 --> 03:36:22,559
thing, this idea of having faith
beyond appearances, seems to be seems to

2494
03:36:22,600 --> 03:36:26,559
be critical when it comes to an
atheist way of thinking. If they were

2495
03:36:26,639 --> 03:36:31,360
to come up with a cosmology where
there is a creator who in some sense

2496
03:36:31,479 --> 03:36:37,440
is obvious that is also hidden,
there is some active step, some leap

2497
03:36:37,520 --> 03:36:43,079
of faith literally required to cross that
barrier. What what other way, well

2498
03:36:43,479 --> 03:36:48,719
can we imagine such a such a
sort of a cosmology occurring that there seems

2499
03:36:48,760 --> 03:36:52,120
to be, you know, if
we are full, free willed agents who

2500
03:36:52,280 --> 03:36:58,360
in some way resemble something divine,
but not entirely you know, we have

2501
03:36:58,559 --> 03:37:03,200
we have certain capacities, but also
have certain limits. From an atheist mindset,

2502
03:37:03,399 --> 03:37:09,040
what other game could be played by
a creator who doesn't want servile mechanistic,

2503
03:37:09,520 --> 03:37:15,000
necessarily believing sub agents. I don't
know if this I'm sure, I'm

2504
03:37:15,000 --> 03:37:16,920
sure this thought has occurred to you
before, but it just occurred to me.

2505
03:37:18,600 --> 03:37:22,120
How would one how would one as
an atheist begin to presume such a

2506
03:37:22,200 --> 03:37:26,239
world? You know that there is
some sort of hidden order that is in

2507
03:37:26,319 --> 03:37:30,280
a sense of waiting to be discovered
and that is part of perhaps the game.

2508
03:37:30,879 --> 03:37:33,280
Does that make sense? I feel
I've covered a lot of a lot

2509
03:37:33,319 --> 03:37:35,840
of angles simultaneously, which has been
confusing. I realized, Yeah, I'm

2510
03:37:35,840 --> 03:37:39,440
not. I didn't volue there.
I just I mean, if you're asking

2511
03:37:39,639 --> 03:37:43,200
what the logical philosophical argument is as
to why I would believe in God,

2512
03:37:43,239 --> 03:37:50,719
it's the transcendental argument. So this
is like a medieval sense of the original.

2513
03:37:52,200 --> 03:37:58,799
Is this a Thomas or is it
a tas Artes or a type of

2514
03:37:58,399 --> 03:38:03,639
who we? Who are you referring
to? You mean that specific? I

2515
03:38:03,719 --> 03:38:07,280
mean there have been plenty of people
making transcendental arguments, from you know,

2516
03:38:07,360 --> 03:38:11,840
ancient philosophers like Aristotle to im Manual
Kant. But the specific transcendent argument for

2517
03:38:11,959 --> 03:38:16,479
God is people like Bonds and van
Til and some people in the Orthodox world.

2518
03:38:20,479 --> 03:38:22,040
I'm not sally with them. Is
it possible to quickly not show that

2519
03:38:22,200 --> 03:38:26,360
just to be in the room.
Yeah, I mean. The idea is

2520
03:38:26,479 --> 03:38:33,120
that only the God that we argue
for, the specific type of deity that

2521
03:38:33,399 --> 03:38:39,879
is triune and creates the world with
structure, and that metaphysical structure which underlies

2522
03:38:39,959 --> 03:38:45,360
reality is itself sort of the grounding
and the foundation for the possibility of knowledge.

2523
03:38:45,399 --> 03:38:50,520
So transcendental categories are held together,
function together, interrelate with one another

2524
03:38:50,719 --> 03:38:54,239
because they're grounded ultimately in the patterns
and structures in the divine mind. So

2525
03:38:54,719 --> 03:38:58,280
an omniscient God in the created order, with the regularity that he puts into

2526
03:38:58,319 --> 03:39:03,159
it, is the basis for how
we can have knowledge, ethics, and

2527
03:39:03,239 --> 03:39:07,399
metaphysics at all. Okay, So
the fact that the will that we encounter

2528
03:39:07,520 --> 03:39:13,399
is structured and we is structured,
not only implies but necessitates. No,

2529
03:39:15,399 --> 03:39:18,840
I didn't make the theeleological argument.
I made the transcendental argument. I said

2530
03:39:18,879 --> 03:39:24,200
that the preconditions of knowledge, all
of those that presuppose some kind of order,

2531
03:39:24,319 --> 03:39:28,479
some kind of mind, some kind
of personal God to give us intentionality,

2532
03:39:28,559 --> 03:39:35,280
to give us all of the categories, is only fulfilled and justified in

2533
03:39:35,040 --> 03:39:39,760
the Christian conception of God. Well, thank you very much. I've got

2534
03:39:39,840 --> 03:39:43,239
to put some new people look up. You mentioned I think, I think

2535
03:39:43,280 --> 03:39:46,600
an ancient thinker that I hadn't come
across before about half a minute ago.

2536
03:39:46,719 --> 03:39:52,959
Could you recall you mentioned it wasn't
it wasn't Thomas, and it wasn't besides

2537
03:39:52,959 --> 03:39:56,000
aristotom you mentioned someone else that sounds
like a German name. I said,

2538
03:39:56,079 --> 03:40:01,920
Kant makes transcendent arguments before that,
but I'll go check out, thanks very

2539
03:40:01,959 --> 03:40:05,719
much. Yeah, I mean I
have many, many talks, good questions

2540
03:40:05,760 --> 03:40:09,799
there. Appreciate that many talks on
transcendental argument for God. So you could

2541
03:40:09,840 --> 03:40:11,440
also look to those where I reference
a lot of the people and a lot

2542
03:40:11,479 --> 03:40:18,239
of the the literature and whatnot.
Let's see row yard did you you were

2543
03:40:18,239 --> 03:40:26,559
here? And then I lost you? You fell out? Hello? Can

2544
03:40:26,559 --> 03:40:30,520
you hear me? Okay? Finally, sorry it cut out last time.

2545
03:40:31,280 --> 03:40:37,159
So in terms of the trinity,
uh the world in debate that I assume,

2546
03:40:37,280 --> 03:40:41,040
Yeah, sure you want to okay. So is that is that pure

2547
03:40:41,120 --> 03:40:48,799
monotheism? Well, monotheism is a
late term, and theism in the Christian

2548
03:40:48,879 --> 03:40:52,120
tradition refers to the person of the
Father and by extension, the Son and

2549
03:40:52,159 --> 03:40:56,600
the Spirit. Okay, So that
would mean that would make the son God

2550
03:40:56,719 --> 03:41:01,079
also correct or no, correct,
because God is a generic term that can

2551
03:41:01,120 --> 03:41:05,719
pick out different things. Okay,
then Jesus, Jesus, it would be

2552
03:41:05,799 --> 03:41:11,799
correct to say that you think Jesus
is God? Right, yeah, okay,

2553
03:41:11,920 --> 03:41:16,840
And by God, we're in understanding
that God is all powerful and all

2554
03:41:16,000 --> 03:41:20,079
the characters that God would be right, right, The word God picks out

2555
03:41:20,159 --> 03:41:24,879
different things. It doesn't have one
reference. Yeah, I'm aware, I'm

2556
03:41:24,920 --> 03:41:28,520
aware. We'll like you could stop
me if I were like, God is

2557
03:41:28,760 --> 03:41:33,799
all knowing, God is all powerful, God's not lacking in anything, correct,

2558
03:41:33,879 --> 03:41:37,760
Like we're gonna agree on that?
Well, yeah, but God can

2559
03:41:37,040 --> 03:41:43,040
refer to different things, So it
depends on the word God picks out different

2560
03:41:43,120 --> 03:41:50,399
things. It doesn't have one reference. Like what does I mean? Like

2561
03:41:50,520 --> 03:41:56,120
God, like the Creator and God
we believe, can pick out the divine

2562
03:41:56,159 --> 03:41:58,280
person, the divine nature, and
the divine energies. It can also pick

2563
03:41:58,280 --> 03:42:01,879
out an angel and dealon and a
human, so God doesn't have a team

2564
03:42:03,200 --> 03:42:07,799
can be God and a demon can
be God. The word God has different

2565
03:42:07,920 --> 03:42:11,200
reference. That does not mean that
you're always talking about the word. I

2566
03:42:11,360 --> 03:42:13,760
mean the being I'm talking about.
I know, But I'm saying that the

2567
03:42:13,879 --> 03:42:20,559
word picks out different things. Even
in God like it can mean different things.

2568
03:42:20,639 --> 03:42:24,239
Yes, I understand that. Then
in God it picks out different things

2569
03:42:24,360 --> 03:42:33,079
person, nature, essence, and
operation. Uh sure, okay, So

2570
03:42:35,319 --> 03:42:37,920
God all powerful, all knowing,
right, we can agree on that A

2571
03:42:39,040 --> 03:42:45,040
very basic thing unless I'm wrong.
Yeah, but God can reference the Father,

2572
03:42:45,319 --> 03:42:48,399
the Son, and the Spirit,
and Father, Son and Spirit are

2573
03:42:48,440 --> 03:42:50,920
all three all knowing, okay,
so they're all all three of them are

2574
03:42:50,959 --> 03:42:56,360
all knowing. Correct, Okay.
Then out of curiosity, why didn't Jesus

2575
03:42:56,479 --> 03:43:00,319
know the hour? Yeah, if
you read letter two thirty five and of

2576
03:43:00,360 --> 03:43:03,559
Basil, he explains why that that's
a misinterpretation of the text. It's a

2577
03:43:03,879 --> 03:43:13,959
use of rhetoric because elsewhere Jesus says
none is good but God letter two thirty

2578
03:43:13,000 --> 03:43:16,120
six of Basil. I'm just saying
that. That's where he gives the explanation

2579
03:43:16,319 --> 03:43:20,120
to this old Aryan argument that Jesus
didn't have omniscients, because you know what

2580
03:43:20,120 --> 03:43:24,239
I'm saying, there's other passages to
talk about Jesus having omniscients, right,

2581
03:43:24,600 --> 03:43:28,040
So it's a use of rhetoric,
like when Jesus says there's no one good

2582
03:43:28,239 --> 03:43:35,280
letter Basil, it's either two thirty
five or two thirty six, and I'm

2583
03:43:35,319 --> 03:43:41,200
explaining it Saint Basil, Letter two
thirty five, two thirty six. He

2584
03:43:41,239 --> 03:43:48,280
gives an explanations right around in there
of why and how we show that it

2585
03:43:48,479 --> 03:43:54,479
can't mean that Jesus lacks knowledge in
the Bible. Letter two thirty six of

2586
03:43:54,559 --> 03:43:58,959
Saint Basil is a theological writing about
what I'm talking just referencing that the essay

2587
03:44:00,079 --> 03:44:01,959
that talks about what I'm talking about, and it gives a lot of the

2588
03:44:03,040 --> 03:44:07,200
explanations that I'm giving you, namely
that the words when it says that he

2589
03:44:07,280 --> 03:44:11,879
doesn't know are rhetoric because in other
places you have similar uses of that rhetoric,

2590
03:44:13,159 --> 03:44:16,760
like there's no one good but the
Father. Does that literally mean that

2591
03:44:16,879 --> 03:44:20,120
nobody is good? Because other passages
say that the Son is also good and

2592
03:44:20,159 --> 03:44:22,319
the Spirit is also good. So
it's a simple use of rhetoric. Mm.

2593
03:44:22,920 --> 03:44:28,159
Okay, So do you believe that
the Bible is the word of God

2594
03:44:30,000 --> 03:44:33,399
in a sense? But ultimately no, the Word of God is a person.

2595
03:44:33,520 --> 03:44:35,799
It's a divine person identified with the
second person of the Godhead in John

2596
03:44:35,879 --> 03:44:41,639
One. Mm hmm, So the
Bible is not the word of God.

2597
03:44:41,920 --> 03:44:43,200
Okay, did you You didn't so
you didn't hear what I said. I

2598
03:44:43,280 --> 03:44:48,360
just answered your question question. No, it's not. That's a false psychotomy.

2599
03:44:50,479 --> 03:44:56,680
I didn't say in between simple question. That's a false No. It's

2600
03:44:56,760 --> 03:45:01,440
called a fallacy of either or do
you know what the fallacy of either word

2601
03:45:01,559 --> 03:45:07,280
is? Yes, it's either an
apple or an orange, a little bit

2602
03:45:07,319 --> 03:45:09,399
in between. No, I didn't
say. I never used the word in

2603
03:45:09,440 --> 03:45:11,479
between. Don't put words in my
mouth. What I said was, I

2604
03:45:11,559 --> 03:45:16,639
didn't say in between. You're putting
words in the name. I'm your like

2605
03:45:16,200 --> 03:45:18,920
synonyms, man, go ahead,
go ahead, explain. No. I

2606
03:45:20,040 --> 03:45:24,360
said very clearly that there's a sense
in which the written texts are the word

2607
03:45:24,399 --> 03:45:26,959
of God. And then I said
that ultimately that's not correct though, because

2608
03:45:28,000 --> 03:45:30,959
the Word of God is a divine
person, the second person of God had

2609
03:45:31,000 --> 03:45:39,079
identified in John one being. So
you don't understand basic turn So you're giggling,

2610
03:45:39,079 --> 03:45:43,079
all right, you're not. You
are giggling. You don't. You

2611
03:45:43,159 --> 03:45:46,520
have no clue what you're You don't
know what you're talking about. So again

2612
03:45:46,559 --> 03:45:52,440
it's just people with no education,
no knowledge. They can't do basic grammar.

2613
03:45:52,440 --> 03:45:56,040
When we talk about a word concept
fallacy. You see that. You

2614
03:45:56,120 --> 03:46:03,920
see the silliness of this. So
well, words have different reference. You're

2615
03:46:03,959 --> 03:46:09,719
not coming back on, dude,
We're done, goodbye. A word can

2616
03:46:09,879 --> 03:46:13,239
have two different reference. This is
called hermeneutics, right, This is how

2617
03:46:13,280 --> 03:46:16,920
we interpret this, the science of
interpreting a text, and every heresy of

2618
03:46:18,000 --> 03:46:22,840
Saint Basil says, trades on ambiguity
and heretics, thinking that words have one

2619
03:46:22,920 --> 03:46:28,159
meaning. Not every heresy is based
on that, but it's a characteristic of

2620
03:46:28,280 --> 03:46:31,920
many errors and heresies to think that
a word only has one meaning. And

2621
03:46:33,000 --> 03:46:37,959
people get tripped up on Jesus using
a figure of speech. Jesus uses figures

2622
03:46:37,959 --> 03:46:41,200
of speech all the time, right, like, cut your hand off if

2623
03:46:41,200 --> 03:46:43,680
it makes you sin. Do Jesus
trying to tell me those so forth?

2624
03:46:43,879 --> 03:46:48,079
Dude, it's called rhetoric. We
utilize, excuse me, it's called a

2625
03:46:48,319 --> 03:46:54,959
figure of speech. We utilize hyperbole
in literature all the time. Okay,

2626
03:46:54,079 --> 03:46:58,239
when you go to read Dosiewsky,
when you go to read Shakespeare. Okay,

2627
03:46:58,399 --> 03:47:01,319
if you're an edge educated person,
not a random goober who doesn't know

2628
03:47:01,399 --> 03:47:07,200
anything about how to read, you
don't automatically take every text literally. That's

2629
03:47:07,239 --> 03:47:11,760
why it takes time to learn texts
and how to interpret them, to learn

2630
03:47:11,799 --> 03:47:16,600
exte Jesus, to learn hermeneutics.
And one thing you learn is that you

2631
03:47:16,680 --> 03:47:20,719
don't go to a passage or a
text, isolate that text and think that

2632
03:47:20,479 --> 03:47:24,319
that's the one text by which all
the other texts are interpreted. Every aryan

2633
03:47:26,600 --> 03:47:31,520
every aryan heretic. Does this Jesus
lacks knowledge? Dough it says, right,

2634
03:47:31,680 --> 03:47:35,840
did these Jesus lacks knowledge? Do? Don't use the big words on

2635
03:47:37,040 --> 03:47:43,319
me, do. It's the use
of rhetoric, exaggeration, hyperbole. Just

2636
03:47:43,479 --> 03:47:48,079
like when he says cut your hand
off if because you dissent, He's not

2637
03:47:48,159 --> 03:47:52,239
literally telling you cut your hand off. It's hyperbole, just like when he

2638
03:47:52,319 --> 03:47:56,760
says there's none good but God.
This is a grammatical thing. It's a

2639
03:47:58,200 --> 03:48:03,319
ter. It's a usage in literature
to be will not know the hyperbole metaphor

2640
03:48:03,479 --> 03:48:09,120
is used in literature. Okay,
so this, I'll bring you back on

2641
03:48:09,440 --> 03:48:13,280
if you'll slow down. If you
spurg out and spit out a bunch of

2642
03:48:13,360 --> 03:48:20,399
mega liiths which doesn't back up the
claim, then I'm not gonna I'm not

2643
03:48:20,440 --> 03:48:26,159
gonna bring you back on. Can
you calm down and have a conversation?

2644
03:48:28,319 --> 03:48:41,719
H go ahead? Aiden? Are
you there? You're on muted, daid

2645
03:48:43,879 --> 03:48:54,559
make your Masonic argument? What's up? Can't hear you? Dude? Don't

2646
03:48:54,559 --> 03:49:01,280
hear anything? So I don't know
what what's up? H? You want

2647
03:49:01,280 --> 03:49:13,639
to try again? Are you there? Aiden? Okay? I don't hear

2648
03:49:13,680 --> 03:49:18,360
anything, dude, So I don't
know what's going on. Pope Francis is

2649
03:49:18,399 --> 03:49:22,879
calling in. What's up Pope Francis
tonight? It's if you disagree, you're

2650
03:49:22,959 --> 03:49:28,280
welcome to come on. Remember that
disagreeing means that you're gonna present an argument.

2651
03:49:28,319 --> 03:49:33,520
You're gonna present a case. You
can question me, you can interrogate

2652
03:49:33,559 --> 03:49:37,159
me. I don't mind, but
we're gonna learn to debate. So part

2653
03:49:37,200 --> 03:49:39,840
of what we do in these exercises, in these live streams is we're not

2654
03:49:39,959 --> 03:49:43,120
just learning the facts and all that's
good, we're also learning to debate,

2655
03:49:43,159 --> 03:49:48,440
hopefully, and so sometimes it requires
pointing out that, like, you don't

2656
03:49:48,440 --> 03:49:54,440
know what you're talking about, and
I'm gonna keep pulling you back to the

2657
03:49:54,559 --> 03:49:58,879
point so that you learn what we're
trying to say and what real argumentation is.

2658
03:50:00,200 --> 03:50:03,319
There's rules to debate. It doesn't
mean you just spout out whatever you

2659
03:50:03,399 --> 03:50:07,879
want. That's not what an argument. There are laws to thought and critical

2660
03:50:07,920 --> 03:50:11,799
thinking. That's what we're trying to
elucidate here, and Pope France is going

2661
03:50:11,879 --> 03:50:15,799
to help us do that. What's
up, Pope Francis? You get an

2662
03:50:15,840 --> 03:50:22,520
unmute man, Hello, what's up, your holiness? How you doing?

2663
03:50:24,440 --> 03:50:28,200
What's happening in Rome tonight. Did
the did the Skittles orgies? Did they

2664
03:50:28,319 --> 03:50:33,040
just complete? Complete? Are they
done? Is it over now? Well?

2665
03:50:33,520 --> 03:50:41,399
I actually do have something to say
it It is an opinion and an

2666
03:50:41,520 --> 03:50:46,040
argument at the same time, and
neither of them. So I'm just going

2667
03:50:46,120 --> 03:50:52,479
to share it and it'll take a
moment, Okay, So momentarily I will

2668
03:50:52,479 --> 03:50:56,680
be donating five dollars to Jade Meyer. There are seven hundred viewers here.

2669
03:50:58,159 --> 03:51:01,680
I'm talking to you all. If
you all that is you all donated a

2670
03:51:01,719 --> 03:51:05,959
few dollars, would make five dollars
is equivalent to the price that be hot

2671
03:51:07,000 --> 03:51:09,920
and ready pizza. I encourage all
of you to take a small step in

2672
03:51:09,000 --> 03:51:16,440
good faith to promote this high level
no bullshit dialogically. I don't know what

2673
03:51:16,559 --> 03:51:28,319
all that was about. Johann sig
what's up? I'm having fun or I

2674
03:51:28,319 --> 03:51:31,799
wouldn't keep doing this is tonight has
been wild? I mean it's like,

2675
03:51:33,680 --> 03:51:37,520
Johan, hey, did you yeah? Yeah, yeah? How's it going?

2676
03:51:39,239 --> 03:51:41,799
So? I believe in God,
but I wanted to just mention a

2677
03:51:43,000 --> 03:51:46,959
passing remark reaches that like in the
world of power, he says, somewhere

2678
03:51:48,120 --> 03:51:50,639
I was hesitant to call in because
I don't have my books. But in

2679
03:51:50,719 --> 03:51:56,200
the Wild of Power he says that
like Paul was basically just experiencing epilepsy.

2680
03:51:56,600 --> 03:52:03,120
And if you sort of take this
remark and dovetail it with some remarks of

2681
03:52:03,479 --> 03:52:11,120
Robert Sapolski's about like the resemblance between
sorry Hindu cleaning rituals and also cleaning rituals

2682
03:52:11,159 --> 03:52:16,360
and Judaism, and he has many
other examples and they really resemble OCD behavior.

2683
03:52:16,799 --> 03:52:20,280
So like the argument, like I
said, I happen to believe in

2684
03:52:22,200 --> 03:52:26,600
modern modern Judaism Allah, rabbinical Judaism
is not the same thing as what was

2685
03:52:26,680 --> 03:52:31,479
going on at the time of Christ. That's why Christ reduced that stuff and

2686
03:52:31,639 --> 03:52:35,399
Paul left Judaism. So how does
this relate to Paul being ac The argument

2687
03:52:35,520 --> 03:52:41,159
is more so that all this phenomena
is a just a mental it's just mental

2688
03:52:41,200 --> 03:52:46,879
stuff. It's just mental illness.
It's something that's results the result of human

2689
03:52:46,920 --> 03:52:50,079
beings on the spectrum of mental illness. Like that's the argument. Like this

2690
03:52:50,280 --> 03:52:54,840
these remarks of niches in Uh and
also bring that together with these remarks of

2691
03:52:54,920 --> 03:52:58,000
Robert sapolskis, I don't want to
give a long speech to explain the whole

2692
03:52:58,040 --> 03:53:01,280
thing because Christianity and religion as mental
illness. Okay, is that? But

2693
03:53:01,680 --> 03:53:07,239
how is that interesting that Nietzsche ended
up dying of going insane mentally ill?

2694
03:53:07,319 --> 03:53:13,719
But yeah, I know, right, So, but how does that that's

2695
03:53:13,760 --> 03:53:18,200
a that's a claim. How does
that demonstrate the claim to be the case?

2696
03:53:20,680 --> 03:53:24,600
Well, I'll tell you this Tag. Perhaps this is just a criticism

2697
03:53:24,760 --> 03:53:28,120
of TAG. Like I said,
I respect the argument, I'm not necessarily

2698
03:53:28,239 --> 03:53:33,040
arguing against it, but it does
sort of lack a volitional push into belief

2699
03:53:33,280 --> 03:53:37,200
because like actual belief, because at
the at the core, it does seem

2700
03:53:37,280 --> 03:53:41,440
like you're saying God exists because we
are able to have this debate right now.

2701
03:53:41,840 --> 03:53:45,000
But the fact that we were able
to have this debate right now is

2702
03:53:45,079 --> 03:53:50,559
so plainly, dully real and obvious. There's an immense gulf between the psychic

2703
03:53:50,680 --> 03:53:56,120
image of belief in God, which
is supposed to be an impressive something or

2704
03:53:56,200 --> 03:54:00,639
other, and the plain, dull
realization that we're just having a debate.

2705
03:54:01,159 --> 03:54:05,559
And you're using a lot of rhetoric
and prose to call it plain and dull.

2706
03:54:05,719 --> 03:54:09,920
But the question is, actually,
what's the logical and metaphysical structure that

2707
03:54:09,120 --> 03:54:18,000
makes language and meaning possible. So
your subjective idea is large question. Well,

2708
03:54:18,040 --> 03:54:22,639
that's what tag is. So that's
how TAG moved. That's the movement

2709
03:54:22,680 --> 03:54:28,600
of that argument. So whether you
call it, I mean, sure it

2710
03:54:28,719 --> 03:54:31,479
is prosaic, I suppose, but
I don't think that that actually removes It's

2711
03:54:33,319 --> 03:54:37,799
you're using a lot of prose and
using a lot of rhetoric that doesn't address

2712
03:54:37,959 --> 03:54:41,639
or deal with the actual argument itself. That's like saying that math is boring.

2713
03:54:41,799 --> 03:54:46,799
So math is boring. So math
is boring. So hold on,

2714
03:54:46,000 --> 03:54:50,159
that's not what I'm saying that I
didn't say, that's what you're saying,

2715
03:54:50,719 --> 03:54:56,479
Chill, I said, that's I
said. It's like that that's an analogy.

2716
03:54:56,559 --> 03:55:00,120
Okay, So it's not. You're
not saying math is. It's to

2717
03:55:00,200 --> 03:55:05,239
say that the conversation is boring.
It has nothing to do with the questions

2718
03:55:05,319 --> 03:55:11,879
of preconditions. So the you know, tag tag hinges on the status the

2719
03:55:11,920 --> 03:55:18,520
status of preconditions give an account for
them. Like, well, I don't

2720
03:55:18,559 --> 03:55:22,600
want to keep repeating this. I
happen to believe in God, so I

2721
03:55:22,680 --> 03:55:26,239
feel sort of like insincere at the
moment. But it just seems that this

2722
03:55:26,440 --> 03:55:30,799
issue that I just like, I'm
trying to dovetail this with the picture of

2723
03:55:30,840 --> 03:55:35,280
what's happening that Nietzsche and the Robert
Seppolski remarks like, if you know,

2724
03:55:35,040 --> 03:55:39,920
Tag just sort of fails to push
one into belief and for that reason,

2725
03:55:41,399 --> 03:55:45,319
and part of the reason is it
seems required the education you have, Jay

2726
03:55:45,879 --> 03:55:50,360
to understand fully, that's none of
that has anything to do with whether the

2727
03:55:50,520 --> 03:55:54,879
arguments true or false. So those
are it remains a flaw. It means

2728
03:55:56,479 --> 03:56:01,360
it like limits Tag's ability I suppose
to push any went into Like I mean,

2729
03:56:01,399 --> 03:56:03,280
at a certain a lot of people
have converted hold on looking for proof,

2730
03:56:03,520 --> 03:56:07,040
Okay, to keep looking for that. I don't think you understand what

2731
03:56:09,479 --> 03:56:11,719
you say. That a lot.
I don't think you understand. I mean,

2732
03:56:11,840 --> 03:56:15,600
I do have a master's degree,
but I maybe I'm also a little

2733
03:56:15,639 --> 03:56:18,040
stoned right now though, So I'm
at a weakness's and strengths and I'm not

2734
03:56:18,079 --> 03:56:22,840
at my house my books, so
anyway, can't continue. I'm listening.

2735
03:56:26,680 --> 03:56:48,719
That's up. I can't hear anything
moving on the four hundred m Hey,

2736
03:56:48,799 --> 03:56:54,639
Jay, can you hear me?
Okay, Hey, I was calling about

2737
03:56:54,000 --> 03:56:58,600
I just wanted to ask a question
I'm working at a women's shelter right now,

2738
03:56:58,639 --> 03:57:01,799
so I don't have a ton of
time. I was wondering when,

2739
03:57:01,959 --> 03:57:07,479
like during the week we're able to
do like more of these. I'm just

2740
03:57:07,520 --> 03:57:13,360
connecting with some of your work recently, and I've got some questions. Do

2741
03:57:13,399 --> 03:57:18,040
you have a not so much debate
but more like feedback? Uh huh and

2742
03:57:18,360 --> 03:57:24,399
uh yeah. So so if you
could start with, like, when's it

2743
03:57:24,479 --> 03:57:28,399
good? Like I think this is
the second session I've kind of like logged

2744
03:57:28,399 --> 03:57:31,200
into listened to for a couple of
hours. Okay, so the topic,

2745
03:57:31,239 --> 03:57:33,959
it's so it's a debate for them. What we do is we offer people

2746
03:57:33,079 --> 03:57:39,200
to come on and give argumentation where
they disagree with Protestant ideas kind of the

2747
03:57:39,280 --> 03:57:43,040
ideas Muslim ideas, Atheist ideas versus
arguments that I might present. So,

2748
03:57:43,719 --> 03:57:48,680
okay, you have that or not, Well it would pertain to like I

2749
03:57:48,120 --> 03:57:56,280
co founded an abbey based on like
the ancient Irish tradition as as obscure and

2750
03:57:56,399 --> 03:58:05,200
veiled as that maybe coming from a
Protestant like background last few years, mildly

2751
03:58:05,319 --> 03:58:13,360
enchanted with some of what's going on
in the Orthodox tradition, always kind of

2752
03:58:13,399 --> 03:58:15,879
wrestling back and forth. Am I
doing the wrong thing? Am I in

2753
03:58:16,000 --> 03:58:24,760
the right stream? So yeah,
we're kind of floating a little isolated because

2754
03:58:24,760 --> 03:58:31,280
we don't really have a place in
Protestantism. Some things are attractive to me

2755
03:58:31,399 --> 03:58:35,959
about Catholicism, but not many a
couple of things. But I would it

2756
03:58:35,959 --> 03:58:39,959
would be more a present or like, well, an interaction with you about

2757
03:58:39,959 --> 03:58:43,120
here's kind of what we're doing,
here's why, here's I mean, that's

2758
03:58:43,159 --> 03:58:46,879
not really I'm not trying to be
mean or rude, it's just not that's

2759
03:58:46,920 --> 03:58:54,360
not my I can't facilitate or answer
those kinds of questions. So but you

2760
03:58:54,479 --> 03:58:56,159
know, maybe you could reach I
would say, reach out to like an

2761
03:58:56,280 --> 03:59:00,680
Orthodox bishop or you know, the
Orthodox Church around you. But thank you

2762
03:59:00,760 --> 03:59:03,920
for that comment there, Jamerican.
What's up, ja American? We've got

2763
03:59:05,000 --> 03:59:09,760
JAMERICOI in the house. Virtual well
insanity, speaking of jamericoy, virtual insanity

2764
03:59:09,840 --> 03:59:13,680
is what's happening tonight. I'm on
that. I'm on that virtual insanity tip

2765
03:59:13,760 --> 03:59:20,719
tonight I'm dancing like m may require
virtual insanity. What's up? J American?

2766
03:59:28,360 --> 03:59:37,959
You gotta on you? So y'all
see how my patience has been extremely

2767
03:59:37,239 --> 03:59:45,959
tested and pushed to the point of
snapping tonight. I've been hopefully somewhat patient.

2768
03:59:46,239 --> 03:59:52,520
I have really had to kind of
really struggle to be patient tonight.

2769
03:59:52,639 --> 04:00:00,360
So uh, j American, Uh, you had your chance, Thomas.

2770
04:00:01,200 --> 04:00:05,760
You came on. All you guys
already have been on, and you guys

2771
04:00:05,879 --> 04:00:11,440
know that it's it's disagreement night.
Hick House. That's a good that's that

2772
04:00:11,520 --> 04:00:20,120
sounds good, hick House, Jack, you're doing oh my bad? Oh

2773
04:00:20,200 --> 04:00:24,920
ship? So I thought roy R, I thought you already came on.

2774
04:00:28,959 --> 04:00:35,000
Go ahead, Hickson, hick hicck
whatever, hick House. Yeah. No,

2775
04:00:35,040 --> 04:00:37,239
I was going to say, you're
on a you're on a terd night.

2776
04:00:39,680 --> 04:00:45,040
I uh, in thinking about what
you've been talking about, I was

2777
04:00:45,639 --> 04:00:50,799
I figured you may entertain me for
twenty seconds on the idea of you know,

2778
04:00:52,079 --> 04:00:54,479
say, you know, you and
me are you know, spiritual beings

2779
04:00:54,520 --> 04:01:01,159
showing a human flesh shoot, and
we're at a supermarket picking of religion,

2780
04:01:01,879 --> 04:01:05,760
right and uh? And the question
is like, what what what are your

2781
04:01:05,840 --> 04:01:13,840
requirements for religion? Because you know, I think everyone has their own I

2782
04:01:13,879 --> 04:01:18,280
don't know. Uh, you can
look at the you know, neurons wrapped

2783
04:01:18,280 --> 04:01:22,840
around feelings from you know, religion, they're taught in childhood or this app

2784
04:01:22,920 --> 04:01:26,840
and the other. And so my
question is, I don't know to you

2785
04:01:26,760 --> 04:01:31,000
if you're you know, say you're
on the open market for religion, or

2786
04:01:31,079 --> 04:01:33,959
say no other religions exists and you're
going to create one, you know,

2787
04:01:33,079 --> 04:01:37,239
what is that? What are the
priorities? Look like? You know,

2788
04:01:37,360 --> 04:01:39,920
what are the what are the need
to be there? You know, like

2789
04:01:41,120 --> 04:01:43,959
pure capitalists, you know, let's
make a religion, which I sort of

2790
04:01:45,040 --> 04:01:48,360
think I'm on the open meat market. That's what I'm saying. If everybody

2791
04:01:48,399 --> 04:01:50,639
looks at if you look at these
guns, you'll see the meat market.

2792
04:01:50,719 --> 04:01:54,079
Now, Tristan's over there sweating and
getting nervous. I'm sorry, Exon,

2793
04:01:54,120 --> 04:01:56,479
I don't I don't understand. That's
what we're gonna have to move on there.

2794
04:01:56,120 --> 04:02:01,280
What are the requirements for a religion
if we're shopping? I mean,

2795
04:02:01,440 --> 04:02:05,799
I guess it's going to depend on
what you think religion is or what you're

2796
04:02:05,840 --> 04:02:11,200
looking for. I mean, Orthodox
Christianity offers to man, you know,

2797
04:02:11,479 --> 04:02:16,520
the pathway to eternal life, becoming
like God, deification, theosis. That's

2798
04:02:16,600 --> 04:02:20,079
that's what we believe in. But
thank you for that question. Let's see

2799
04:02:20,159 --> 04:02:28,319
now somebody's in the chat fussing saying
uh ro yar. Didn't you already come

2800
04:02:28,399 --> 04:02:33,520
on? Like everybody who's all fussy
has been on flame too. You've already

2801
04:02:33,559 --> 04:02:37,479
been on you can come back on. Yeah, just make it. It's

2802
04:02:37,559 --> 04:02:39,440
weird to me that people can't make
They just have no idea what an argument

2803
04:02:39,600 --> 04:02:45,840
is. I just think it's like
arguing or something. Go ahead, Okay,

2804
04:02:48,799 --> 04:02:54,280
I can hear you. Okay,
so you're talking. I just wanted

2805
04:02:54,319 --> 04:02:58,360
one quick question that I'm out of
here. You were talking about without Mason

2806
04:02:58,399 --> 04:03:03,000
guy, about my MP whole and
how his lecture with astrology at the end

2807
04:03:03,079 --> 04:03:07,799
of that, except that it was
all about just yeah, socialism, United

2808
04:03:07,879 --> 04:03:13,120
Nations, that's the whole selling point. Yeah, what part was it?

2809
04:03:13,200 --> 04:03:16,840
I wanted to look like the last
of the whole lectures on astrology. So

2810
04:03:16,000 --> 04:03:18,680
I don't know it used to be
on YouTube. I don't know if it's

2811
04:03:18,719 --> 04:03:22,760
still there, like the lasts of
it, his last election on astrology.

2812
04:03:22,799 --> 04:03:26,639
At the end, does he just
say it's about socialism? Yes, and

2813
04:03:28,000 --> 04:03:31,520
it's not what freemasonry is all about. So it's just well, I mean,

2814
04:03:31,639 --> 04:03:39,040
freemasonry is not absolutely necessarily socialist,
but many socialist Revolutionaries were absolutely Freemasons.

2815
04:03:39,079 --> 04:03:48,200
Absolutely. So the topic tonight,
guys, is God's existence. Cause

2816
04:03:48,200 --> 04:03:52,479
the Alicism paper is he Protestants,
not the philosophy of Freemasonry, unless you

2817
04:03:52,520 --> 04:03:58,600
want to say that Freemasonry has the
correct theology of God or something. Roscoe,

2818
04:04:05,440 --> 04:04:11,680
Roscoe, get on you can you
hear me? So? I just

2819
04:04:11,719 --> 04:04:18,520
got a quick question about something you
were talking about angels? Did you said,

2820
04:04:18,520 --> 04:04:22,000
did you have a topic to debate
about protonism with al says unorthodoxy?

2821
04:04:22,680 --> 04:04:26,760
Oh no, I don't, okay, So it's it's open debate. What

2822
04:04:26,879 --> 04:04:30,719
what were you What do you want
to ask about? Uh? I heard

2823
04:04:30,799 --> 04:04:33,399
you on another streams say that when
the angels were tested, they were tested

2824
04:04:35,719 --> 04:04:39,159
in just a moment. But I
was reading a book, The Religion of

2825
04:04:39,159 --> 04:04:45,639
the Apostles by Stephen DeYoung, and
uh he said that angels were appointed over

2826
04:04:45,760 --> 04:04:52,120
nations and then they fell away out
of out of the uh, the the

2827
04:04:52,239 --> 04:04:56,680
counsel of God. Yeah, I
agree with you. I agree with that.

2828
04:04:58,040 --> 04:05:00,799
So if they were tested in the
moment, how could they fall out

2829
04:05:00,879 --> 04:05:03,920
of that council, the divine council? Because the angels exist in the aon,

2830
04:05:05,079 --> 04:05:09,000
which is outside of time. It's
a timeless eternity. Yeah, but

2831
04:05:09,120 --> 04:05:13,760
how were they in the council and
then out of it? Because that's in

2832
04:05:13,920 --> 04:05:16,239
the aon, the timeless eternity.
It's not a it's not a thing in

2833
04:05:16,360 --> 04:05:22,680
time. Okay, I don't know
if I quite get this right. So

2834
04:05:22,000 --> 04:05:26,680
if you read Vladimore Lawski's book,
Uh Orthodox Dogmatics, there's four pages in

2835
04:05:26,719 --> 04:05:31,959
that book that deals with the Aon
and what that means in Orthodox metaphysics.

2836
04:05:33,440 --> 04:05:37,000
And this is something that contrasts our
view with platonism. So we have a

2837
04:05:37,239 --> 04:05:45,559
uniquely Orthodox idea that there's a created
eternity known as the Aon, and that's

2838
04:05:45,639 --> 04:05:50,000
the realm in which the angels live
and inhabit. So they don't they can

2839
04:05:50,079 --> 04:05:54,159
be in time, but they don't
exist in time the way that we do.

2840
04:05:54,479 --> 04:05:58,319
It's called the aon aio in and
many Orthodox elogians, including Saint Maximus,

2841
04:06:00,079 --> 04:06:03,760
talk about the eon. So yeah, I mean like people saying they

2842
04:06:03,799 --> 04:06:07,479
want to come back. Bro,
if you didn't, I mean you came

2843
04:06:07,559 --> 04:06:13,319
on you major arguments. It didn't
work. Ryan Burr, what's up?

2844
04:06:13,319 --> 04:06:16,600
Do you have a disagreement? An
argument you want to make? Nate says,

2845
04:06:16,639 --> 04:06:20,479
for five dollars, how do you
keep up between the politics of the

2846
04:06:20,600 --> 04:06:24,200
seas. I don't keep up with
politics. I mentioned in geopolitics we talked

2847
04:06:24,200 --> 04:06:26,360
about a lot Garrett sixty four five
dollars. What are you about the concept

2848
04:06:26,440 --> 04:06:31,159
of panpsychism. No, we don't
believe in panpsychism. That is a heresy

2849
04:06:31,280 --> 04:06:35,280
that we would reject. Thank you
for that, super jet ricky five dollars.

2850
04:06:35,360 --> 04:06:39,079
What's wrong with belief? In the
Roman Catholic sense of the eucharists created

2851
04:06:39,159 --> 04:06:45,000
grace? So that's two different senses. Obviously, the Eucharist is a created

2852
04:06:45,040 --> 04:06:48,040
thing in the sense of bread and
wine. The question is the grace that

2853
04:06:48,120 --> 04:06:52,760
we get in that Eucharist is not
created? So the grace itself, as

2854
04:06:52,840 --> 04:06:56,520
Maximus excuse me, as Ephesus and
Cyril say, is the uncreated energies of

2855
04:06:56,559 --> 04:07:01,600
God. And this is dealt with
in the Decree of Ephesis and the Two

2856
04:07:01,680 --> 04:07:07,239
Lettershystic Census, where it talks about
what we get in the Eucharist. Go

2857
04:07:07,280 --> 04:07:16,040
ahead, Ryan, So like I've
been looking around, like the world around

2858
04:07:16,159 --> 04:07:24,600
us, and does this not remind
you of like nineteen twenties Germany before,

2859
04:07:24,159 --> 04:07:28,600
like you know, you know,
Okay, So the topic is Protestantism Catholicism.

2860
04:07:30,840 --> 04:07:33,280
I know, but it has like
something to do. No, it

2861
04:07:33,319 --> 04:07:39,959
doesn't. So the topic is Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam atheism. I said

2862
04:07:39,959 --> 04:07:43,200
at the beginning, We're not here
to talk about Middle East politics. We're

2863
04:07:43,239 --> 04:07:46,840
not here to talk about tiny mustache
man. That's not the topic tonight.

2864
04:07:48,040 --> 04:07:58,680
Uh so, Wouler, what's up? Ruler? Doctor Chillonson's five dollars and

2865
04:07:58,760 --> 04:08:03,920
said, in regard to your debate
with Jake, have you watched Khalil ad

2866
04:08:03,000 --> 04:08:07,680
Nanni's cross examination of Jake. Yes, I've seen all the discussions between those

2867
04:08:07,719 --> 04:08:11,559
two. Doctor Khalil annihilates Jake.
I'm familiar. Thank you that for that,

2868
04:08:11,719 --> 04:08:16,280
Doctor Chillon, Oh's oz pod one
dollar. I've seen a paper that

2869
04:08:16,440 --> 04:08:22,920
was scholarly calling Saint Athanasious a Sibelian. I'm sure you can find an academic

2870
04:08:22,959 --> 04:08:28,200
paper. This is everything I mean. I had classes where, uh the

2871
04:08:28,479 --> 04:08:31,840
entire class was about trying to prove
Shakespeare was gay. So you know that

2872
04:08:31,959 --> 04:08:37,879
that's what academics do. Can you
explain this? I would just read orthodox

2873
04:08:37,959 --> 04:08:41,520
sources. Don don't worry about that
stuff. Octavian twenty five dollars? What

2874
04:08:41,680 --> 04:08:46,559
trans I mean, it's it's absurd, given how often Saint Athanasius defends the

2875
04:08:46,639 --> 04:08:52,399
Trinity, that he would be a
Sibelian. It's preposterous. What transition do

2876
04:08:52,479 --> 04:08:54,440
you of the Orthodox Bible do you
recommend? I mean again, I'm a

2877
04:08:54,479 --> 04:08:58,040
big fan of the Orthodox Study Bible. I've been using it for many,

2878
04:08:58,079 --> 04:09:03,200
many years. You know, the
notes overall are really good. Doesn't mean

2879
04:09:03,239 --> 04:09:07,840
they're always correct or infallible, but
you know ninety percent of the time they're

2880
04:09:07,879 --> 04:09:11,719
really good and correct. Guy Guy, Guy, Guy, Guy, three

2881
04:09:11,799 --> 04:09:16,879
dollars? Could God have made a
better world? And this gets into Leibnizes

2882
04:09:16,040 --> 04:09:22,559
arguments about best of all possible worlds. I'm I'm not sure what I think

2883
04:09:22,600 --> 04:09:28,680
about that. I'm not sure true
Pachamama believer. One dollar? Are you

2884
04:09:28,799 --> 04:09:35,239
ar FDA aware of creationist books against
evolution? Yes, I mean there's hundreds

2885
04:09:35,280 --> 04:09:39,399
of them, so I referenced many
of them earlier. I thought there was

2886
04:09:39,479 --> 04:09:43,040
one coming out. I mean there's
a lot of them, so I mentioned

2887
04:09:43,079 --> 04:09:48,280
them in earlier in the stream aquaemtas
one dollar. How do you commitce a

2888
04:09:48,760 --> 04:09:54,920
Mennonite that Christ recapitulated everything in the
Escaton? You don't because of Menna Nite

2889
04:09:54,920 --> 04:09:58,719
it's not going to know what you're
talking about. Just fix the damn wheel

2890
04:09:58,760 --> 04:10:01,600
on his buggy and move on.
Just just love him by fixing his buggies

2891
04:10:01,639 --> 04:10:07,600
and buying his meat. Cody Cigar
one dollar fresh tat breath. The atheist

2892
04:10:07,719 --> 04:10:15,040
guy is a requested speaker. Oh
fresh, I thought I'll let him on,

2893
04:10:15,200 --> 04:10:18,520
but he didn't, so he was
the breathy atheist. I think he

2894
04:10:18,639 --> 04:10:20,360
dropped off or we couldn't hear him. So if he's still there, he

2895
04:10:20,399 --> 04:10:26,200
can he can pop back on.
Guys. Sometimes on Twitter spaces, if

2896
04:10:26,239 --> 04:10:31,360
you come in, you gotta like
come out and come back in. I

2897
04:10:31,360 --> 04:10:35,000
don't know why, but sometimes it
works that way. BMX shout out longtime

2898
04:10:35,040 --> 04:10:37,639
super Chatter a big fan of BMX
since ten bucks. Thank you so much.

2899
04:10:37,680 --> 04:10:41,719
Bat dude won two three five dollars. I am a Christian. One

2900
04:10:41,799 --> 04:10:46,959
characteristic that I hear Protestants describe is
that God is immaterial? Correct? How

2901
04:10:48,000 --> 04:10:52,440
can the material universe come from the
immaterial God? Well, it matter comes

2902
04:10:52,520 --> 04:10:58,000
to be out of nothing ex nilo. And the only way that we know

2903
04:10:58,239 --> 04:11:01,600
that that's the case is because divine
revelation tells us that that's what he did.

2904
04:11:03,159 --> 04:11:05,159
But we're not ever told how.
Right, So the Bible isn't really

2905
04:11:05,200 --> 04:11:11,680
describing the mechanics of creation. It's
describing the what, not the how.

2906
04:11:11,280 --> 04:11:16,120
So it's fine for humans engage in
scientific activities, which is the how.

2907
04:11:16,879 --> 04:11:20,280
But again, the Bible's not a
science manual on how God did this.

2908
04:11:20,959 --> 04:11:26,159
It's just telling us what he did. So I don't know how, Aiden

2909
04:11:26,239 --> 04:11:30,920
says, I have disagreements. Yeah, I know, Aiden, Now maybe

2910
04:11:31,079 --> 04:11:37,440
this was prior to you coming on
with the Masonic arguments. Kabibe fenboy one

2911
04:11:37,520 --> 04:11:43,399
dollar. My mother is becoming a
Messianic Jew. She's celebrating Passover Sabbath blah

2912
04:11:43,440 --> 04:11:46,239
blah. She and my Baptist church
and her judy as her friends are mad

2913
04:11:46,319 --> 04:11:50,239
that I'm reading church history. Pray
for me. Yeah, I mean,

2914
04:11:50,280 --> 04:11:56,159
if you watch show your Mom Lewis's
documentary over at Orthodox Shahta about the continuity

2915
04:11:56,200 --> 04:12:03,399
between Jewish worship and Orthodox worship,
because Orthodox Christianity is the real Messianic Judaism,

2916
04:12:03,600 --> 04:12:07,680
none of us seven seven, seven
ten dollars. I'm convinced by the

2917
04:12:07,719 --> 04:12:11,920
pizza argument of Pope Princess. Well, that's good, appreciate that. And

2918
04:12:11,040 --> 04:12:16,520
also, I am not a man
because I have a little bit of beard.

2919
04:12:16,159 --> 04:12:18,399
So, by the way, what
actually counts as an Orthodox beard?

2920
04:12:18,479 --> 04:12:24,719
Like, what's the actual like do
we need cinimeters? Now? I can't

2921
04:12:24,760 --> 04:12:28,319
use cinimeters because that's my sonic.
Did y'all know that the decimals jamis in

2922
04:12:28,360 --> 04:12:33,239
their laugh And it's true though,
the decimal system actually comes from Masonic dudes,

2923
04:12:33,719 --> 04:12:37,000
So we got to only use King's
English here, and it's got to

2924
04:12:37,040 --> 04:12:41,040
be basically a foot is like this, right, So the beard literally pretty

2925
04:12:41,079 --> 04:12:43,520
much got to be out about here
or I don't believe you're Orthodox. I'm

2926
04:12:43,600 --> 04:12:48,040
just now beginning to maybe think Father
Deacon Anonius might be Orthodox because this beer

2927
04:12:48,120 --> 04:12:52,559
is pretty long. Tristan. No, in no way, dude, notn

2928
04:12:52,639 --> 04:12:58,639
Orthodox at all, probably not even
a man. So basically there's only like

2929
04:12:58,719 --> 04:13:01,719
probably three Orthodox people in America because
how many people actually have a beer that

2930
04:13:01,840 --> 04:13:07,680
long? A handful, if that
much, Paul Kelly tonight, everybody's being

2931
04:13:07,719 --> 04:13:11,920
idiots. Jay, Well, Paul, I'm inclined to kind of agree a

2932
04:13:11,959 --> 04:13:16,799
little bit, but thank you for
that. Ten dollars Christus Victor christ Vicker

2933
04:13:16,879 --> 04:13:22,520
on Earth five dollars math problems.
Five dollars plus seven hundred viewers equals that's

2934
04:13:22,520 --> 04:13:26,000
a lot of money, but I
don't think we're going to get that much.

2935
04:13:26,399 --> 04:13:35,600
Die or give me one more chance
Conservative ex Masonic arguments Aiden. I

2936
04:13:35,639 --> 04:13:37,000
mean, I don't know. If
you're still in there, you can come

2937
04:13:37,040 --> 04:13:41,799
back on. I don't care.
But we gotta understand what an argument is.

2938
04:13:41,000 --> 04:13:43,639
And if you're just gonna fuss at
me that I'm using big words,

2939
04:13:43,879 --> 04:13:48,719
then there's no point in doing that. Matt Belta, three dollars. Can

2940
04:13:48,760 --> 04:13:50,239
you show me where the church Fathers
speak of the Trinity as we know and

2941
04:13:50,360 --> 04:13:56,879
understand it today? Oh, the
church Father's the first three centuries. Well,

2942
04:13:56,000 --> 04:14:03,040
you could start by going to the
discussion that I did with Inspiring Philosophy.

2943
04:14:03,159 --> 04:14:11,639
We did, I think a two
hour podcast where we just highlighted Trinitarian

2944
04:14:11,399 --> 04:14:16,200
theology in the first and second century, so we didn't even go into two

2945
04:14:16,280 --> 04:14:22,879
to three hundred. I don't even
think we now, we didn't go into

2946
04:14:22,959 --> 04:14:28,680
the third century. So I mean, there's a whole almost two hour podcasts

2947
04:14:28,719 --> 04:14:37,000
you can go watch Inspiring Philosophy,
Jadeyer Trinity Ricky again, three dollars.

2948
04:14:37,200 --> 04:14:41,959
I can't wait for the debate with
Jake made the Spirit empower you? Well,

2949
04:14:43,040 --> 04:14:46,760
I think the main thing is that, you know, the hardest part

2950
04:14:46,799 --> 04:14:52,239
about these debates is reading these really
long Islamic texts, and so you know,

2951
04:14:52,360 --> 04:14:56,920
the even to me a text I'm
having to read. I've got like

2952
04:14:56,000 --> 04:14:58,879
four of them, but one of
them, two of them I did.

2953
04:15:00,000 --> 04:15:03,879
I've done. One of them is
the really long one, and it's pretty

2954
04:15:03,280 --> 04:15:07,760
dry and boring. So it's just
it's just a matter of like, I

2955
04:15:07,840 --> 04:15:11,600
fell asleep twice trying to get through
this even to me a book. So

2956
04:15:13,000 --> 04:15:18,120
what's that ruler say? Yeah,
my question is how would you respond to

2957
04:15:18,200 --> 04:15:22,559
the contient objection of a tag that
it's the categories are just in the mind?

2958
04:15:24,239 --> 04:15:28,719
Well, I mean that would reduce
to the problems of Kantianism, which

2959
04:15:28,840 --> 04:15:31,959
is that his whole system could not
be known because he can't know what's outside

2960
04:15:33,000 --> 04:15:35,079
of his own mind. So,
in other words, the whole system is

2961
04:15:35,200 --> 04:15:39,479
undercut by not being able to know
because other minds are part of the Newmena.

2962
04:15:41,360 --> 04:15:46,360
But you're just using the exact argument
he gave, but flipping it to

2963
04:15:46,479 --> 04:15:50,159
prove your argument. No, I'm
flipping it to prove that Kantianism doesn't work.

2964
04:15:54,239 --> 04:15:58,639
But so you're using a transcendental argument. No, I'm not. I'm

2965
04:15:58,680 --> 04:16:03,399
not. I'm saying that on its
own grounds. Kant system doesn't allow Kant

2966
04:16:03,520 --> 04:16:08,600
to know if other minds work that
way. But I don't think his argument

2967
04:16:08,680 --> 04:16:12,879
is a question about minds. You
just said that, what if the categories

2968
04:16:12,920 --> 04:16:17,520
are only in the mind, that's
consposition that the categories exist in the mind.

2969
04:16:18,479 --> 04:16:22,000
In the mind theological question, not
a metaphysical or ontological question. So

2970
04:16:22,120 --> 04:16:26,319
do you understand that if they exist
in the mind, as Kant says,

2971
04:16:26,360 --> 04:16:30,680
that's consposition. Kant's own worldview is
undercut because he can't know if other minds

2972
04:16:30,719 --> 04:16:33,520
work that way, because other minds
are part of the noumena. Well,

2973
04:16:33,559 --> 04:16:37,719
we share the same nature as humans, so we each have our own that

2974
04:16:37,920 --> 04:16:41,239
goes outside of Kant's. You can't
go there with if you're a content that's

2975
04:16:41,280 --> 04:16:45,479
the noumena, you don't know that. How can you prove that the categories

2976
04:16:45,559 --> 04:16:49,040
exist? Well, the hold on
that's a different argument. So my argument

2977
04:16:49,159 --> 04:16:55,120
is that it's not const argument.
The categories have to be really existing metaphysical

2978
04:16:55,159 --> 04:16:59,840
things like Aristotle thought. Why so
for one, because I want to just

2979
04:16:59,840 --> 04:17:06,000
say that about con because there's no
other way to structure the logic of sentences

2980
04:17:06,200 --> 04:17:11,719
means it's not jump from that reputation
to saying, oh, therefore it actually

2981
04:17:11,799 --> 04:17:17,840
exists a positive claim. No,
the argument is that the by the by

2982
04:17:17,920 --> 04:17:25,639
the impossibility of the Kantient system,
they must be really existing things. Mm

2983
04:17:25,719 --> 04:17:33,040
hmm, how are you like verifying
that? Well, if there's a disteleological

2984
04:17:33,079 --> 04:17:37,559
world, then sentences aren't possible,
so teleology must be a real metaphysical principle.

2985
04:17:41,959 --> 04:17:45,959
Okay, Well, can you go
back to the reputation of the Kantian

2986
04:17:47,120 --> 04:17:51,000
system? How does not know?
Are you not aware of the critiques of

2987
04:17:51,079 --> 04:17:55,159
cont like there are already many many
critiques of KNT, and this is a

2988
04:17:55,239 --> 04:17:59,000
very famous critique of con Okay,
but then the response would be, it

2989
04:17:59,040 --> 04:18:02,600
doesn't matter. If we don't know
the nature of other minds, then he

2990
04:18:02,719 --> 04:18:07,000
can't say that that's that's true.
He can't say that that categories exist in

2991
04:18:07,120 --> 04:18:11,399
the mind. He only knows about
his own. Are you not listening to

2992
04:18:11,479 --> 04:18:14,959
what I'm saying? Are you not
listening? You can't it's an unjustified claim.

2993
04:18:15,399 --> 04:18:18,719
Do you don't understand how you can
have to actually like give an argument

2994
04:18:18,799 --> 04:18:25,360
and not just assert your claims.
I'm not making an argument I'm talking about

2995
04:18:25,520 --> 04:18:30,639
CONT's own position, not working on
content grounds. It's not me asserting Christianity.

2996
04:18:30,680 --> 04:18:33,799
I'm saying that this is a classic
critique of Kant. You're not aware

2997
04:18:33,840 --> 04:18:37,280
of this. I am aware of
it. You're not articulating it. I

2998
04:18:37,399 --> 04:18:41,440
am articulating it. What do you
mean? I just gave you multiple articulations

2999
04:18:41,520 --> 04:18:47,040
that Contoonne claims about his own system. Go outside into the new minal realm,

3000
04:18:47,040 --> 04:18:48,760
which, by cons definition you can't
know. Do you want me to

3001
04:18:48,760 --> 04:18:51,959
bring a professor in who can help
you with this, because he'll say what

3002
04:18:52,040 --> 04:18:55,280
I say? Do you want a
professor in here? That's an appeal to

3003
04:18:55,360 --> 04:18:56,879
authority? No, it's not.
It's an attestation. No, it's not

3004
04:18:56,920 --> 04:19:03,280
an appeal to authority. It's helping
you out. I'm not saying it's true

3005
04:19:03,319 --> 04:19:07,200
because father Deacon says it. I'm
saying that he will help you understand that

3006
04:19:07,239 --> 04:19:11,559
what I'm saying is accurate. Okay, why don't you try explaining it in

3007
04:19:11,639 --> 04:19:30,639
your own words? All right,
We're done, Bill Vanier? Bill Vanier,

3008
04:19:30,680 --> 04:19:40,559
I'm mute. Hey, how you
doing? Brother? Uh? Just

3009
04:19:40,799 --> 04:19:45,680
two quick questions for you. I'm
not calling the debate or offer an argument

3010
04:19:45,799 --> 04:19:51,280
or anything okay, but that's what
topic is tonight, So Protestantism as related

3011
04:19:51,319 --> 04:19:56,959
to dual politics. Again, I'm
sorry, man. That is multiple times,

3012
04:19:56,040 --> 04:20:00,079
multiple times tonight specified that. No, that's not what we're doing of

3013
04:20:00,120 --> 04:20:03,239
mine. I'm not trying to be
mean to you. You're welcome to call

3014
04:20:03,319 --> 04:20:07,319
back in. I do open it
up for geopolitical discussions at times. Bays

3015
04:20:07,399 --> 04:20:12,559
quotes what's up, dude, thank
you guys for the superstar. Oliver says

3016
04:20:12,600 --> 04:20:15,760
a dollar. If we have free
will, should we be scared of temptations?

3017
04:20:18,920 --> 04:20:22,840
I think we have to fight our
temptations win. They're temptations towards sin,

3018
04:20:23,000 --> 04:20:26,200
the passions. But I don't think
we should be afraid of free will.

3019
04:20:26,520 --> 04:20:32,079
Go ahead, based Bays guy,
what's an abased guy? Just an

3020
04:20:32,159 --> 04:20:36,040
Abays guy in the house. Hey, mister Dierk, can you hear me?

3021
04:20:36,200 --> 04:20:38,840
Yes, sir, So, I'm
trying to wrap my head around tag.

3022
04:20:41,159 --> 04:20:45,360
But I guess I still don't understand. Couldn't the atheist theoretically just say

3023
04:20:45,440 --> 04:20:52,280
that he presupposes, like his worldview
just presupposes like all of those issues,

3024
04:20:53,959 --> 04:20:57,200
you know, the fundamental issues that
you talk about a lot. Yeah,

3025
04:20:57,239 --> 04:21:00,840
but it's not a matter of just
saying that I presuppose or just you presupposed.

3026
04:21:00,879 --> 04:21:04,280
We already agree that everybody has presuppositions. It's a question of giving an

3027
04:21:04,319 --> 04:21:10,000
account for those presubpositional categories. So
that's two different things. It's not just

3028
04:21:10,120 --> 04:21:12,559
saying, well, I presuppose,
God, you presupposed categories. So I

3029
04:21:12,559 --> 04:21:17,760
guess we're at an impasse. No, No, everybody presupposes the same categories

3030
04:21:18,479 --> 04:21:22,280
the preconditions for the possibility of knowledge, and the question of tag is just

3031
04:21:22,840 --> 04:21:33,040
just who can give an account for
those categories? Okay? Is that register

3032
04:21:33,200 --> 04:21:37,719
or is that not clear? I'm
trying to think And I guess I recently

3033
04:21:37,760 --> 04:21:42,040
watched your debate with Dela Hunt,
and I guess that was kind of what

3034
04:21:42,200 --> 04:21:45,440
he was trying to argue, and
I didn't really understand. Yeah, so

3035
04:21:45,479 --> 04:21:49,319
Matt said the presuppositional transitional categories just
are okay, But that doesn't work in

3036
04:21:49,399 --> 04:21:52,760
a debate. Just are what and
just saying something is. It's not a

3037
04:21:52,959 --> 04:21:56,920
justification for how that thing exists.
As Matt himself says, you should never

3038
04:21:57,000 --> 04:22:02,360
believe in something that is empirically verify. He admits in the debate that transnital

3039
04:22:02,399 --> 04:22:06,600
categories are not empirically verified, and
he says they just are. Just are

3040
04:22:06,840 --> 04:22:08,959
is not an argument, It's not
a justification. It's an arbitrary assertion.

3041
04:22:10,040 --> 04:22:17,000
It means absolutely nothing in a debate. Just are what? Just are?

3042
04:22:17,079 --> 04:22:26,079
Where? Does that make sense?
Or are you there? What's up?

3043
04:22:26,600 --> 04:22:32,440
Yeah? Yeah, that makes sense. I think I'll look more into it.

3044
04:22:32,680 --> 04:22:34,639
Okay, Yeah, good questions there. Yeah, I think if you

3045
04:22:36,399 --> 04:22:40,319
go through like some of the discussions
that Father Deacon and Ice have had in

3046
04:22:40,399 --> 04:22:45,079
the past about like epistemology and justification, those talks that we did would actually

3047
04:22:45,120 --> 04:22:51,520
be very helpful for the topic that
you're bringing up. We'll go to We'll

3048
04:22:51,559 --> 04:22:53,159
get a bunch of more people hopping
in here. Zar Gones, you know

3049
04:22:53,239 --> 04:22:56,559
what, I'm gonna have to go
t T. So I'm gonna have to

3050
04:22:56,600 --> 04:22:59,440
go t T. Y'all just hold
on for a minute, but I gotta

3051
04:22:59,479 --> 04:23:03,600
I gotta mess is from our sponsor. Don't go anywhere, and we will

3052
04:23:03,639 --> 04:23:07,920
continue on because I'm just in a
mood. I'm feeling some type of way.

3053
04:23:07,360 --> 04:23:12,520
I'm feeling some type of way.
I'm feeling some type of way.

3054
04:23:14,319 --> 04:23:19,479
Hey, and we're gonna continue this
because I'm having fun. And you know

3055
04:23:19,559 --> 04:23:22,639
what, I've just submitted to the
fact that it's gonna be crazy stuff all

3056
04:23:22,719 --> 04:23:26,600
night long. I don't mind.
It's okay, I just just does just

3057
04:23:26,879 --> 04:23:30,000
marry the madness, bring it on. But look, I gotta tell you

3058
04:23:30,040 --> 04:23:36,319
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3059
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3078
04:25:11,639 --> 04:25:48,799
fire your boss and dot. People
do call in at times to try to,

3079
04:25:48,959 --> 04:25:55,479
like, you know, get you
riled up, and it doesn't bother

3080
04:25:55,639 --> 04:25:56,760
me. I'll just roll with it. In fact, I wanted that beard

3081
04:25:56,840 --> 04:26:00,239
dude to come back, the dude
saying that I'm not actually mascular man.

3082
04:26:02,120 --> 04:26:06,760
He ran off so so nope,
trying to trying to call me out,

3083
04:26:07,479 --> 04:26:12,280
basically saying I got a basically a
gay beard and that's okay. You know

3084
04:26:12,360 --> 04:26:15,959
what, man, you know what, I just sometimes I gotta come out

3085
04:26:15,000 --> 04:26:21,399
of the closet with my gay beards
on. So argon's Matt, what's up?

3086
04:26:21,479 --> 04:26:26,840
Jargon? So to depict, I
would like to say that to Protestants

3087
04:26:26,920 --> 04:26:33,559
and Orthodox holds us firmly to the
conviction that the word became flesh, they

3088
04:26:33,719 --> 04:26:38,000
do, but they don't. I
would argue that they don't embrace the doctrine

3089
04:26:38,120 --> 04:26:42,840
to its fullness. They don't see
all the way to the bottom or draw

3090
04:26:44,040 --> 04:26:48,200
out. Okay. So, so
who truly has the right answer on it?

3091
04:26:48,799 --> 04:26:53,959
Catholics see gods continued in fleshment,
in the oil, water bread.

3092
04:26:55,520 --> 04:27:02,760
Who has the true answer? A
kah, the true answer? You said?

3093
04:27:02,840 --> 04:27:04,319
Catholics and Orthodox don't have the true
answer on it. So I'm asking

3094
04:27:04,360 --> 04:27:07,879
you, okay, who does Who's
got the right answer? No, they

3095
04:27:07,959 --> 04:27:11,920
have, they have the true answer. They just don't hold as firmly to

3096
04:27:12,079 --> 04:27:18,000
the conviction that word became flush.
Okay, who truly holds to it?

3097
04:27:18,079 --> 04:27:21,239
Then? You? I mean,
who who's got the right answer to the

3098
04:27:21,360 --> 04:27:30,000
confident Church? Okay? The who
the confident Church? Okay, So we

3099
04:27:30,120 --> 04:27:33,000
don't have the true answer, but
the Catholic Church has the true answer?

3100
04:27:37,760 --> 04:27:45,840
Yeah, what do you I'm not
saying what's the argument? The argument would

3101
04:27:45,920 --> 04:27:56,879
be that the way that confidence,
uh but believe in the incarnation of Jesus

3102
04:27:56,360 --> 04:28:00,559
is more profound, it's more deep, it's more firm. So what you're

3103
04:28:00,559 --> 04:28:07,600
saying Roman Catholics have a better understanding
than Orthodox is that what argon? I

3104
04:28:07,639 --> 04:28:11,319
wouldn't say a better understanding. I
would say just more rooted and firm and

3105
04:28:11,479 --> 04:28:18,040
tradition. Could you understand that the
Orthodox Church holds to the christological teachings of

3106
04:28:18,159 --> 04:28:22,200
the First Seven Councils and the Roman
Catholic Church typically doesn't even know what those

3107
04:28:22,280 --> 04:28:26,600
are most Roman Catholics, So I
don't know where you would get that.

3108
04:28:30,360 --> 04:28:37,239
What what's the correct christological view that
we're supposed to have here? Okay,

3109
04:28:37,360 --> 04:28:44,280
I'm sorry that became God became humans
so that humans might become God. Yeah,

3110
04:28:44,319 --> 04:28:51,920
I mean that's orthodoxy one oh one. All right, Well, yeah

3111
04:28:52,079 --> 04:29:00,600
that's the case. That's all they
got to say. Okay, m gohan

3112
04:29:00,760 --> 04:29:07,840
bach, what's a this is?
This is wow? Good grief, og

3113
04:29:07,040 --> 04:29:15,520
cowboy, five dollars. AI will
reach superintelligence proposition one. This proposition two

3114
04:29:15,639 --> 04:29:22,440
constitutes a mind refute this. Why
would First of all, intelligence is not

3115
04:29:22,600 --> 04:29:30,879
equivalent to complex algorithms. AI is
always only input data and algorithms. That's

3116
04:29:30,959 --> 04:29:36,879
never intelligence. When we say that
it's artificial intelligence, it's based on an

3117
04:29:36,920 --> 04:29:41,719
anthropomorphic analogy that computers work like human
minds. So it's another kind of like

3118
04:29:41,840 --> 04:29:45,360
bait and switch word concept fallacy to
think that because the computer works like a

3119
04:29:45,479 --> 04:29:51,159
mind, that it is a mind. So putting in more algorithms is never

3120
04:29:51,239 --> 04:29:53,600
going to make it conscious, nor
does it ever make it a mind.

3121
04:29:55,239 --> 04:30:02,799
So there's the reputation of what your
point, it trades on fallacy of uh

3122
04:30:03,159 --> 04:30:14,280
well, the word concept fallacy.
Gohan, I mute, bro, This

3123
04:30:14,360 --> 04:30:17,639
is just it's just too entertaining to
not continue with this. I mean we

3124
04:30:17,680 --> 04:30:22,399
don't usually get this much. Wow
feral activity. I mean hey yeah sure,

3125
04:30:23,079 --> 04:30:27,120
mm hmm. Well what's up?
First of all? Yes, sir,

3126
04:30:27,239 --> 04:30:30,840
how you doing? Back of the
ball? All right? So real

3127
04:30:30,959 --> 04:30:33,959
quick? Was that I saw a
screenshot earlier? Was the pope really on

3128
04:30:33,040 --> 04:30:36,879
this street? We're going to put
you on something? Yes? Him,

3129
04:30:37,079 --> 04:30:38,639
I'm going to put you on something
along? Was he? Was he really

3130
04:30:38,680 --> 04:30:45,399
the speaker? Dude? It wasn't
a pope? Come on all right,

3131
04:30:45,799 --> 04:30:48,520
Look, I just want I want
to believe. So that's that was the

3132
04:30:48,600 --> 04:30:55,000
first question up. Yeah, I
mean that's that was actually the most pressing

3133
04:30:55,040 --> 04:31:02,360
thing. I'll pass the mic.
Thanks Jack, m Matt, what's up,

3134
04:31:02,440 --> 04:31:08,479
Matt? Hello, Yes, sir, I just have a question about

3135
04:31:10,680 --> 04:31:17,719
Wait, it's about atheist argument.
It's not really an argument, but it's

3136
04:31:17,799 --> 04:31:22,319
a It was well, my friend
was arguing with an atheist and he asks,

3137
04:31:23,000 --> 04:31:26,319
if we were made in the image
of God, then how can we

3138
04:31:26,520 --> 04:31:32,799
sin? And I just don't know
how to respond to that. Well,

3139
04:31:32,920 --> 04:31:37,360
being made in the image of God
partly means that we have freedom, so

3140
04:31:37,639 --> 04:31:42,120
that means we have the ability to
choose different options. And unfortunately, in

3141
04:31:42,159 --> 04:31:45,600
the fallowing world, that means we
have the ability to choose sin. So

3142
04:31:47,840 --> 04:31:51,079
being made in the image of God
does not mean that we are equivalent to

3143
04:31:51,239 --> 04:31:57,760
God in virtue. We have to
learn to choose virtue versus choosing advice by

3144
04:31:57,840 --> 04:32:08,559
you, Jared us up by you? Yeah, So, Aiden, do

3145
04:32:08,639 --> 04:32:11,559
you want to come on the stream
again? And I'm happy to explain these

3146
04:32:11,600 --> 04:32:18,399
things if you can relax and not
just machine gun. So, and when

3147
04:32:18,520 --> 04:32:22,159
Orthodox Christianity says that we become God, it does not mean what masonry means

3148
04:32:22,200 --> 04:32:26,280
in terms of being your own God
and apotheosis. So this is why words

3149
04:32:26,280 --> 04:32:30,079
don't always have the same meaning.
Okay, it's a word concept fallacy.

3150
04:32:30,239 --> 04:32:33,840
So by you are you there or
what's up? Yeah, I'm here?

3151
04:32:34,319 --> 04:32:38,959
What's up? You wanted to get
your your view? What is your view

3152
04:32:40,040 --> 04:32:45,319
of the nature of scripture? And
do you have like an evidential argument that

3153
04:32:45,399 --> 04:32:52,959
you can provide to kind of substantiate
that. I do believe that the scriptures

3154
04:32:53,000 --> 04:32:57,040
are inspired. I don't think they
contain theological error. I think that there

3155
04:32:57,120 --> 04:33:02,600
are copyist errors. I think most
people believe that there are minor copyist errors.

3156
04:33:02,639 --> 04:33:06,840
But that the unanimity amongst textual scholars
for the first you know, a

3157
04:33:06,919 --> 04:33:11,159
few centuries of the thousands of manuscripts, in terms of the ninety to ninety

3158
04:33:11,200 --> 04:33:15,880
five percent unanimity amongst the texts,
I think suggests that the veracity of the

3159
04:33:17,000 --> 04:33:18,840
text. I mean, the New
Testament in the first few centuries is like

3160
04:33:18,919 --> 04:33:23,799
the most attested to document in history. It's even more attested to than Plato's

3161
04:33:23,840 --> 04:33:29,279
writings. So if you're talking about
like historical attestations to the veracity of the

3162
04:33:29,360 --> 04:33:32,520
New Testament, I would say those
kinds of things are examples of that.

3163
04:33:32,799 --> 04:33:37,240
But the reason I believe the Bible
ultimately it would be things like messianic prophecies

3164
04:33:37,279 --> 04:33:42,799
being fulfilled, very precise prophecies,
as well as philosophical arguments like the transcendental

3165
04:33:42,919 --> 04:33:51,000
argument and so forth. Okay,
yeah, because when I was seen a

3166
04:33:51,080 --> 04:33:56,720
lot of Christians debating skeptics, they
it seems like they get back into the

3167
04:33:56,840 --> 04:34:00,799
most that they can say about the
scripture is that it's, you know,

3168
04:34:02,599 --> 04:34:08,880
mostly historically reliable, and they I
haven't I haven't seen Christians step into the

3169
04:34:10,000 --> 04:34:15,599
ring with the skeptic and actually try
and defend that the that the scriptures,

3170
04:34:15,959 --> 04:34:22,360
the Old and New Testament are the
literal word of God. You know,

3171
04:34:22,439 --> 04:34:26,799
it kind of depends on your your
definition of inspiration. Do you believe that

3172
04:34:26,919 --> 04:34:33,880
the Bible is is equal to God
speaking in every so, the Word of

3173
04:34:33,959 --> 04:34:38,240
God is the second person that God
had Jesus, the like the Messiah is

3174
04:34:38,400 --> 04:34:42,360
the Logos. They're identical. That's
the one person that's present in Christ.

3175
04:34:42,520 --> 04:34:47,680
So the Word of God is not
equivalent to a book. The book is

3176
04:34:47,759 --> 04:34:51,080
called the Word of God because it's
the revelation of the person of Christ.

3177
04:34:51,240 --> 04:34:55,040
So it's not identical in the same
sense. And that's I I'm not saying

3178
04:34:55,080 --> 04:34:57,040
you do this. A lot of
Protestants commit the word concept fallacy, where

3179
04:34:57,040 --> 04:35:02,159
they think that because the Word of
God is Jesus, Jesus is the Bible.

3180
04:35:02,279 --> 04:35:07,159
Right. This is like KJB fundamentalist
type people. We wouldn't say that.

3181
04:35:07,279 --> 04:35:11,400
But I do think that the Bible
is historically accurate and so forth,

3182
04:35:11,560 --> 04:35:18,880
reliable, inspired, et cetera.
So if someone were to convince you of

3183
04:35:19,040 --> 04:35:22,400
an error in the Bible with what
would that do to your faith? Well,

3184
04:35:22,400 --> 04:35:25,880
again, it would depend on the
type of error, because I said

3185
04:35:25,919 --> 04:35:29,639
there are copyist errors, and I
have a not a copyist error. It's

3186
04:35:29,680 --> 04:35:33,639
something that all of them. Let's
say, let's just say theoretically every manuscript

3187
04:35:33,840 --> 04:35:41,279
agrees this is the correct reading,
and it's some historical fact that is proven

3188
04:35:41,400 --> 04:35:47,560
to be like incorrect or And what's
the argument? Where is this argument?

3189
04:35:48,119 --> 04:35:52,080
It's a theoretical argument. I'm not
making this specific arment. I mean I

3190
04:35:52,319 --> 04:35:56,520
can point to there's the in the
gospels. Is where you're going to find

3191
04:35:56,520 --> 04:36:00,880
the most You have two different you
have three if you're talking about this in

3192
04:36:00,000 --> 04:36:04,240
optics, you know three different accounts
of the same event. And this is

3193
04:36:04,279 --> 04:36:08,279
where most of your you know,
quote unquote contradictions are going to run.

3194
04:36:08,680 --> 04:36:11,360
I'm aware of many of these claims
and made the arguments, and there's a

3195
04:36:11,400 --> 04:36:18,040
lot of scholars and there's a lot
of argumentation that reinterprets and robuts those things.

3196
04:36:18,279 --> 04:36:22,720
So that's why, for instance,
there's one in particular that I've never

3197
04:36:22,799 --> 04:36:27,240
really heard anybody address. Well,
I mean, I've brought it up before,

3198
04:36:27,360 --> 04:36:30,720
and people say, well, it's
talking about two different events, but

3199
04:36:30,759 --> 04:36:33,639
I think if you read the context, and it's clearly speaking of the same

3200
04:36:33,680 --> 04:36:42,279
event, which one the gatherering demon
event. No, this is the parable

3201
04:36:42,479 --> 04:36:48,680
of the wicked husbandman. So at
the end of the parable, Christ says,

3202
04:36:51,080 --> 04:36:55,439
what therefore, will the Lord of
the Harvest do to those wicked husbandmen

3203
04:36:55,680 --> 04:36:59,959
or something along those lines. And
then and then Christ answers the question,

3204
04:37:00,040 --> 04:37:04,479
and he'll he'll miserably destroy those wicked
men and give the vineyard to another.

3205
04:37:04,759 --> 04:37:11,240
Right. And then in another gospel
Matthews, Yeah, I believe it's in

3206
04:37:11,319 --> 04:37:17,159
Matthew, Mark and Luke. In
one of them, Christ gives the response

3207
04:37:17,479 --> 04:37:21,520
he's going to destroy them and give
the vineyard to another. And in another

3208
04:37:21,599 --> 04:37:25,720
one of the gospel accounts, it's
the scribes and Pharisees that respond. He

3209
04:37:25,840 --> 04:37:29,880
asked the question and then they respond. So in one gospel, and if

3210
04:37:29,919 --> 04:37:33,080
you read the context, it's the
same. I can't remember exactly what the

3211
04:37:33,520 --> 04:37:38,119
context is, but it's the same
surrounding context. Right. But matthews audience,

3212
04:37:38,200 --> 04:37:44,639
for example, is a Jewish audience, and you've got other gospel writers

3213
04:37:44,680 --> 04:37:48,080
focusing primarily on gentile audience. Right, So if there's a highlighting of the

3214
04:37:48,159 --> 04:37:52,400
response of one group that's in Matthew's
gospel, it makes sense, for example,

3215
04:37:52,479 --> 04:37:57,159
why it would point out things like
scribes and Pharisees, whereas, uh,

3216
04:37:57,639 --> 04:38:02,479
you know, the gentile direct the
gospel might not talk about that because

3217
04:38:02,479 --> 04:38:07,000
it's not real as relevant to that
audience. So yeah, but so who

3218
04:38:07,080 --> 04:38:11,080
said the response Jesus or was it
the Pharisees, because it depends on which.

3219
04:38:11,680 --> 04:38:17,279
So this this one really got me
because now you're if Jesus said that,

3220
04:38:17,520 --> 04:38:19,720
then one of the gospels is putting
the words of Christ into the mouth

3221
04:38:19,799 --> 04:38:26,360
of the Pharisees or vice versa.
And that's that's why it really caused me

3222
04:38:26,599 --> 04:38:30,680
pause, because I'm like, well, this is these are this is actually

3223
04:38:30,799 --> 04:38:34,319
Jesus speaking here. So this isn't
like, you know, he he crossed

3224
04:38:34,360 --> 04:38:40,840
the sea and he landed someplace he
shouldn't have landed, and this is putting

3225
04:38:40,959 --> 04:38:45,279
the words of Christ into the mouth
of the Pharisees. And also just like

3226
04:38:45,439 --> 04:38:49,319
the view of you know, I
mean, it depends on how you look

3227
04:38:49,319 --> 04:38:55,560
at inspiration because a lot, it
seems like a lot of Christian apologists and

3228
04:38:55,560 --> 04:38:59,919
stuff, when they even talk about
the Gospel of John, they're going to

3229
04:39:00,240 --> 04:39:06,799
admit that a lot of this dialogue
and monologue of Christ in theirs is rough

3230
04:39:06,880 --> 04:39:15,040
approximations. These are not a word
for word the things that Christ said when

3231
04:39:15,080 --> 04:39:18,279
he prayed to the Father or something
like this. And you pretty much have

3232
04:39:18,400 --> 04:39:21,799
to argue that we'll just the Holy
Spirit just told John what to write,

3233
04:39:22,159 --> 04:39:26,040
because no one can really understand exactly
where he would get this type of information

3234
04:39:26,200 --> 04:39:30,040
from. Well, but I mean, if God is God, why couldn't

3235
04:39:30,080 --> 04:39:37,040
he do that? I mean he
could, but I mean that's the same

3236
04:39:37,720 --> 04:39:41,360
argument that anyone could that's the same
argument that a Mormon could make. Or

3237
04:39:42,479 --> 04:39:45,560
well, yeah, but I mean
yeah, but the fact that a Mormon

3238
04:39:45,759 --> 04:39:49,880
could make that argument doesn't have anything
to do with whether that might be the

3239
04:39:49,959 --> 04:39:55,479
case here, right, So I'm
not saying it's true, because other people

3240
04:39:55,520 --> 04:39:59,200
could make that claim. But what
I'm saying is on its own grounds,

3241
04:39:59,240 --> 04:40:02,720
that's not a problem. So the
fact that some other person makes that argument

3242
04:40:02,759 --> 04:40:07,040
isn't relevant to this case. But
I mean, by the way, so

3243
04:40:07,080 --> 04:40:08,000
hold on, let's go, let's
go to the first one. So I've

3244
04:40:08,040 --> 04:40:12,919
got Matthew, you know the parable
divine dressers pulled up here, and you're

3245
04:40:12,959 --> 04:40:18,319
talking about at the end of the
parable or okay, okay, So it

3246
04:40:18,400 --> 04:40:26,560
says like forty five the chief priests
Pharisees heard the parables and said he was

3247
04:40:26,599 --> 04:40:30,560
speaking of them. They sought to
lay hands on them at the question,

3248
04:40:30,639 --> 04:40:33,880
and he said, what is he
going to do to those wicked men?

3249
04:40:37,880 --> 04:40:41,360
And they said, and they said, he'll He'll destroy them and give the

3250
04:40:41,439 --> 04:40:47,279
vineyard to another. I think christ
answers in Matthew, and then he goes

3251
04:40:47,520 --> 04:40:52,000
and he and he tells another very
short parable after that, the stone the

3252
04:40:52,040 --> 04:40:56,119
builders rejected. Okay, yes,
correct, So it's before the stone that

3253
04:40:56,200 --> 04:41:02,240
the builders rejected, right before that, like the verse before that. And

3254
04:41:02,360 --> 04:41:07,520
you're saying that because in another gospel
there could be the I mean, maybe

3255
04:41:07,759 --> 04:41:11,680
Jesus has made this point in the
past and so they're repeating. I mean,

3256
04:41:11,799 --> 04:41:15,040
Jesus does re emphasize and restate things. So I'm just not saying why

3257
04:41:15,080 --> 04:41:19,639
this would necessarily be a contradiction.
But what's the other what's the other text?

3258
04:41:22,360 --> 04:41:26,759
Well, I don't it's I'd have
to look it up on my phone.

3259
04:41:26,240 --> 04:41:30,479
It might take me a second to
do that, but if I just

3260
04:41:30,560 --> 04:41:34,159
do a search for so, you're
talking about the same parable in uh what,

3261
04:41:34,400 --> 04:41:38,040
Luke, Yes, it's the same
parable. It's the same it's the

3262
04:41:38,159 --> 04:41:44,400
same context around it, like that, all the narration leading up to it

3263
04:41:44,560 --> 04:41:48,959
is the same. So the argument
that these are two different events is a

3264
04:41:49,080 --> 04:41:53,520
bad argument. I think. I
don't know why you would make that argument

3265
04:41:53,680 --> 04:41:59,400
other than to just try and reconcile
and harmonize. There's no other evidence that

3266
04:41:59,560 --> 04:42:06,000
I've seeing to do that. You
know, it's the same parable. He

3267
04:42:06,119 --> 04:42:11,200
asked the same question at the end. The same response is given, but

3268
04:42:11,479 --> 04:42:17,599
in one it's Christ responding. In
the other it's the Pharisees responding. I'm

3269
04:42:17,599 --> 04:42:19,680
gonna try and pull it up here. Okay, well I'm in Luke twenty

3270
04:42:22,400 --> 04:42:27,520
twenty one. Okay, look twenty
is the Luke's version of the mind Dressers.

3271
04:42:34,759 --> 04:42:45,520
Yeah. Yeah, so Matthew twenty
one to forty. When the Lord

3272
04:42:45,560 --> 04:42:52,000
therefore the vineyard cometh, what will
he do to those husbandmen? And they

3273
04:42:52,159 --> 04:42:56,439
say unto him? So in Matthew
they respond to Christ he will miserably destroy

3274
04:42:56,520 --> 04:42:59,119
those wicked men, and he will
let out his vineyard to other husbands,

3275
04:42:59,119 --> 04:43:03,400
and which shall render him the fruits
in their season. So that's in Matthew.

3276
04:43:03,159 --> 04:43:22,599
And then let's see So the it's
Luke twenty Okay, I appreciate you

3277
04:43:22,720 --> 04:43:25,200
taking a look at it, because, like I said, I haven't really

3278
04:43:25,240 --> 04:43:26,520
gotten it. I mean, it's
I'm not I've not heard this one.

3279
04:43:26,560 --> 04:43:29,759
I mean I've heard a lot of
these over the years. I'm not.

3280
04:43:29,919 --> 04:43:32,759
This one's just not familiar to me. So I'm always willing to take a

3281
04:43:32,840 --> 04:43:37,919
look and see. And it says, yeah, so verse let's see twenty

3282
04:43:37,680 --> 04:43:44,319
Luke twenty thirteen the vineyards. Yeah, you can pick it up in like

3283
04:43:44,479 --> 04:43:48,520
fifteen. So they cast him on
the vineyard and killed him. What therefore,

3284
04:43:48,680 --> 04:43:52,799
So here's the versekin, what therefore
show the Lord of the vineyard do

3285
04:43:52,919 --> 04:43:56,680
unto them? And then christ answers, So this one, it doesn't say

3286
04:43:56,799 --> 04:44:03,000
and they said, so mine keeps
the words in red. But we'll disregard

3287
04:44:03,119 --> 04:44:07,279
that, you know, the red
lettering because that's not inspired. Right,

3288
04:44:07,639 --> 04:44:14,040
Well, hold on, you mess
me thinking of a KJV person. I

3289
04:44:14,080 --> 04:44:17,680
don't. I don't think that the
non read letters are uninspired. I don't

3290
04:44:17,720 --> 04:44:23,479
know where. No, I mean
the the it being color coded red is

3291
04:44:23,599 --> 04:44:29,720
something that the translators do. I'm
aware that's their interpret saying that this is

3292
04:44:29,840 --> 04:44:33,919
Christ speaking. I know, because
that's that's the it has nothing to do

3293
04:44:33,000 --> 04:44:36,680
with Yeah, but that's nothing to
do with like our theology. But go

3294
04:44:36,720 --> 04:44:42,759
ahead. Yeah, So in this
one, uh, it's Christ answering his

3295
04:44:42,880 --> 04:44:45,319
own question. You know what,
Therefore, of the Lord of the vineyard,

3296
04:44:45,400 --> 04:44:48,200
do unto them? He shall come
and destroy these husbandmen, and shall

3297
04:44:48,240 --> 04:44:52,880
give the vineyard to others. And
when they heard it, they said,

3298
04:44:52,959 --> 04:44:56,159
God forbid. So obviously that's not
them speaking that answer, that was Christ.

3299
04:44:59,119 --> 04:45:03,240
So this is the this is the
same parable. And if you look

3300
04:45:03,279 --> 04:45:07,200
at the contact. Yeah, but
like, I just don't understand why this

3301
04:45:07,319 --> 04:45:11,919
is a big contradiction because you could
have multiple people in an audience engaging in

3302
04:45:11,279 --> 04:45:15,520
similar types of things, right,
like, for example, the way that

3303
04:45:15,279 --> 04:45:18,880
the Bible describes the death of Judas. Right, there's two aspects to the

3304
04:45:18,919 --> 04:45:22,680
same event. Right, He's hung, and then his body falls off of

3305
04:45:22,759 --> 04:45:26,040
the tree and it busts open.
Right. And then people say, oh,

3306
04:45:26,119 --> 04:45:29,799
it's a contradiction in the way that
the Bible gives you account of Judas's

3307
04:45:29,880 --> 04:45:33,319
death, when it's just two different
descriptions of the same event from two different

3308
04:45:33,319 --> 04:45:36,840
angles. Right, one is the
hanging, the second is the fulfillment of

3309
04:45:36,880 --> 04:45:41,319
the prophecy when the hanging body gets
bloated, pops and falls off of and

3310
04:45:41,439 --> 04:45:45,599
open busts open when it falls off
of the tree. And so what I'm

3311
04:45:45,639 --> 04:45:49,200
saying is that you could have Jesus
describing this parable, and perhaps he's told

3312
04:45:49,240 --> 04:45:53,040
this parable before, and different people
in the audience are replying to him,

3313
04:45:53,240 --> 04:45:59,639
and Matthew and Luke are highlighting different
responses. So even this isn't necessarily a

3314
04:45:59,680 --> 04:46:06,799
contra addiction. So explain to me
how they how they both respond with the

3315
04:46:06,880 --> 04:46:12,599
same response of Christ respond the same
event because it's a crowd of people,

3316
04:46:14,360 --> 04:46:18,319
right, And you can have within
a crowd of people, if Jesus has,

3317
04:46:18,400 --> 04:46:22,119
for example, made the same point
many times throughout his ministry. You

3318
04:46:22,240 --> 04:46:25,840
probably have people that have already heard
this, and so you could have Jesus

3319
04:46:25,959 --> 04:46:30,040
and people in the audience both responding
like oh oh right, like a like

3320
04:46:30,119 --> 04:46:32,759
when you're having a lecture and a
lot of people are in the audience and

3321
04:46:32,880 --> 04:46:36,840
then some people say oh, yes
this and then you say yes this right.

3322
04:46:41,439 --> 04:46:47,319
I mean, that doesn't seem like
a plausible or reasonable explanation to me

3323
04:46:47,680 --> 04:46:56,680
because Luke is is he is writing
down this account of Christ, right,

3324
04:46:56,759 --> 04:47:02,000
But Luke's writing for it. Luke's
writing for a gent audience. Matthew's writing

3325
04:47:02,040 --> 04:47:06,200
for a Jewish audience. So what
they what they emphasize will be relevant in

3326
04:47:06,279 --> 04:47:11,680
that regard. Sure, And I
mean there's other little things you know that

3327
04:47:11,840 --> 04:47:15,400
I don't mind, like wording differences
or whatever, or emphasis different. I

3328
04:47:15,439 --> 04:47:19,680
mean it's not a word for word
the same, obviously, it's there's differences.

3329
04:47:21,479 --> 04:47:26,959
But the problem is that that Matthew
has Jesus answering his own question and

3330
04:47:27,040 --> 04:47:30,200
then Luke sorry, yeah, but
I mean this again, this is like

3331
04:47:32,200 --> 04:47:34,319
why cannot I mean, have you
ever been in a large crowd of people

3332
04:47:34,360 --> 04:47:40,639
where you're having a loud debate and
a discourse with lots of people done.

3333
04:47:40,639 --> 04:47:44,520
I've had it many times, right, And so if for example, you've

3334
04:47:44,520 --> 04:47:48,560
stressed something in the past, they
can the audience can shout something, and

3335
04:47:48,639 --> 04:47:51,479
then I can also say it too. So it's in other words, it's

3336
04:47:51,479 --> 04:47:53,319
like a false either or, like
it's got to be either way. And

3337
04:47:53,400 --> 04:47:59,080
what all I'm saying is that,
I mean, why can't there be you

3338
04:47:59,159 --> 04:48:04,599
know, the same just the same
phrase being said by both Jesus and by

3339
04:48:04,639 --> 04:48:08,560
the Pharisees. Why does it have
to be either or? Because that just

3340
04:48:08,639 --> 04:48:14,439
seems that to me, that seems
weird, like the more but it's not

3341
04:48:14,599 --> 04:48:19,919
weird. But it's not weird if
both gospel writers are emphasizing different things for

3342
04:48:21,000 --> 04:48:27,360
different audiences, one for Jewish audience, one for a gentile audience. To

3343
04:48:27,479 --> 04:48:33,919
me, the more plausible explanation is, so Luke was not present with well,

3344
04:48:34,040 --> 04:48:37,560
we don't know, we don't know
that. Well, as far as

3345
04:48:37,639 --> 04:48:42,880
we know, he went people to
write his gospel, right, and I

3346
04:48:42,919 --> 04:48:49,080
mean he's he's he's picking up these
stories from the eyewitnesses or the people that

3347
04:48:49,159 --> 04:48:52,919
he's interviewing. I mean, does
he say that, does he say that

3348
04:48:52,919 --> 04:48:55,759
at the beginning of Luke I don't
recall I mean maybe that's what he says,

3349
04:48:55,880 --> 04:48:57,000
I mean, or is it?
Are you saying that's what scholars say?

3350
04:49:00,360 --> 04:49:03,840
That's what he says. At the
beginning of acts he includes, he

3351
04:49:03,919 --> 04:49:08,240
says, the former Triotist treaties that
I've written under you, O Theopolis,

3352
04:49:08,599 --> 04:49:12,919
you know, to take an account
the things which we are are sure surely

3353
04:49:14,080 --> 04:49:21,319
believe, and and he says that
he uh, yeah, he's got introduction

3354
04:49:21,799 --> 04:49:26,959
right, I'm reading it right here, I've got it pulled up. But

3355
04:49:26,040 --> 04:49:30,040
I mean, this doesn't say that
he wasn't there, does it. No,

3356
04:49:30,200 --> 04:49:33,720
it doesn't say he wasn't there,
but we don't. He's not mentioned

3357
04:49:33,759 --> 04:49:40,040
in the gospel account. So if
he's there, he's he's just he's not

3358
04:49:40,240 --> 04:49:42,240
mentioned, you know, he's not
like one of the But I mean there's

3359
04:49:42,319 --> 04:49:47,159
giant crowds of people. So yeah, so he could be there. That's

3360
04:49:47,360 --> 04:49:52,319
that's true. But I don't see
any reason to think he was there.

3361
04:49:52,560 --> 04:49:55,319
I mean, we just did.
There's no a Well, but I mean

3362
04:49:55,319 --> 04:49:57,439
you're saying you're just saying that we
know that he wasn't and I'm saying,

3363
04:49:59,000 --> 04:50:03,119
well, say that I'm not saying
that we know that he wasn't. But

3364
04:50:03,240 --> 04:50:07,479
I think that he's you know,
he's writing his gospel. I think is

3365
04:50:07,520 --> 04:50:11,439
the is the longest of all of
them, if I remember correctly. But

3366
04:50:11,159 --> 04:50:17,360
he's he's he's got a lot of
more like detailed information about different rulers and

3367
04:50:18,159 --> 04:50:22,919
and and kind of specific historical things
because he's ready for because he's ready for

3368
04:50:23,000 --> 04:50:30,439
a gentle audience. Yeah. So
so he's going and this is this is

3369
04:50:30,479 --> 04:50:36,959
why the view of inspiration is like
and in errancy is kind of difficult because

3370
04:50:37,680 --> 04:50:41,439
Luke is you know, when I
first became a Christian, you kind of

3371
04:50:41,439 --> 04:50:45,560
have this idea inspiration that Luke just
kind of sits down one night and it's

3372
04:50:45,639 --> 04:50:49,720
dark and he's got a candle light
and God just inspires him and he just

3373
04:50:49,799 --> 04:50:53,080
writes the Gospel of Luke one night
or in a couple of nights. But

3374
04:50:53,200 --> 04:50:57,279
this is a project that probably took
him months and months, It's not years,

3375
04:50:57,599 --> 04:51:02,560
you know, investigating and interviewing.
Yeah, I mean this is just

3376
04:51:02,720 --> 04:51:06,040
like, I just don't this seems
like a week one to me, honestly.

3377
04:51:06,200 --> 04:51:08,560
I mean, I'm happy to look
at this and I just don't see

3378
04:51:08,599 --> 04:51:18,400
why it can't be focusing on different
different persons saying the same phrase which again,

3379
04:51:18,080 --> 04:51:23,279
if we're talking about let's say,
let's say there's a big debate that

3380
04:51:23,400 --> 04:51:26,479
I have in person with somebody,
and let's say that a bunch of atheists

3381
04:51:26,520 --> 04:51:30,279
show up, a bunch of people
that have followed my channel for a long

3382
04:51:30,360 --> 04:51:32,959
time in the last three or four
years, and they've heard me say a

3383
04:51:33,000 --> 04:51:36,680
lot of stuff, right, And
let's say in the course of me telling

3384
04:51:36,759 --> 04:51:41,279
a story, I'm talking to the
crowd and they shout out something that's a

3385
04:51:41,360 --> 04:51:45,279
phrase like, let's say they say, yeah, unmute dude, and then

3386
04:51:45,319 --> 04:51:51,439
I go exactly, unmute dude.
And then two people are recording the event.

3387
04:51:52,159 --> 04:51:56,400
One guy records and Jay replied,
unmute dude, and another guy records

3388
04:51:56,599 --> 04:52:03,040
the audience shouts, unmute dude.
Are either of those accounts false? No,

3389
04:52:03,400 --> 04:52:07,400
they're both true. Just like the
Death of Judas where he hangs himself

3390
04:52:07,959 --> 04:52:11,319
and then his body falls and his
but it busts open. Right, it's

3391
04:52:11,360 --> 04:52:17,599
not a contradiction describing the same event
at the beginning and at the end of

3392
04:52:17,639 --> 04:52:21,479
the event. Does that make sense? Why can't Why is that not a

3393
04:52:21,639 --> 04:52:30,560
plausible way to interpret this? I
think it's it's it's well to me.

3394
04:52:30,720 --> 04:52:33,560
It seems ad hoc like you're just
saying, well, they both said it.

3395
04:52:33,759 --> 04:52:37,439
No, I'm just saying I'm saying
that that happens in the course of

3396
04:52:38,240 --> 04:52:42,919
the Gospels when people repeat phrases that
Jesus has already said. I mean,

3397
04:52:44,560 --> 04:52:48,119
doesn't I mean the stone the builders
rejected has become the chief cornerstone that comes

3398
04:52:48,159 --> 04:52:51,919
up multiple times in the New Testament, right, yes? Yeah, So

3399
04:52:52,040 --> 04:52:56,000
I mean, like people have heard
Jesus make and say these phrases and use

3400
04:52:56,040 --> 04:53:00,200
these arguments probably multiple times throughout his
ministry. For example, like he talks

3401
04:53:00,240 --> 04:53:03,479
about, uh, you know,
the Kingdom of God will come and many

3402
04:53:03,639 --> 04:53:07,720
many standing here will see the Kingdom
of God coming. And you know,

3403
04:53:07,799 --> 04:53:11,720
he says that phrase a lot,
right, So we wouldn't we wouldn't conclude

3404
04:53:11,799 --> 04:53:15,479
that oh well he only said that
phrase one time, and then the other

3405
04:53:15,639 --> 04:53:18,040
times he could have never said that
phrase, right, I mean, why

3406
04:53:18,159 --> 04:53:22,759
can't. I just don't understand why
you can't have one gospel writer highlighting a

3407
04:53:22,840 --> 04:53:27,880
response from the crowd and another gospel
writer highlighting Christ saying the same type of

3408
04:53:29,400 --> 04:53:34,000
argumentation or response like he does often. Yeah, I mean, you you

3409
04:53:34,520 --> 04:53:40,080
I think that's the only way.
I mean So I've heard two responses,

3410
04:53:40,119 --> 04:53:44,799
and one is his response for giving
now that that Jesus said it and they

3411
04:53:44,880 --> 04:53:47,919
repeated it back to him or something, and for some reason, Matthew wrote

3412
04:53:47,959 --> 04:53:53,159
down, you know what they repeated
back and which but if you if you

3413
04:53:53,279 --> 04:53:59,240
look at it, so let me
continue my thoughts. So Matthew decided to

3414
04:53:59,279 --> 04:54:03,599
write rep and Luke decided to write
him him responding because they had different emphasis

3415
04:54:03,759 --> 04:54:08,759
or something, or to say that
they are just two different events. And

3416
04:54:08,919 --> 04:54:14,000
both of those explanations are not as
good to me as just saying, well,

3417
04:54:14,400 --> 04:54:18,479
Luke, when he was getting his
gospel information, that's the story that

3418
04:54:18,599 --> 04:54:22,560
he got, and it was one
detail of it was wrong or it was

3419
04:54:22,680 --> 04:54:26,840
right. And Matthew one detail that
he wrote, you know, he said,

3420
04:54:26,080 --> 04:54:30,720
he said that this person responding and
it is actually this person. I

3421
04:54:30,759 --> 04:54:36,639
mean, my my thing is like, well, that's okay if that's if

3422
04:54:36,680 --> 04:54:41,319
they got if Jesus didn't actually answer
and it was them, and one gospel

3423
04:54:41,360 --> 04:54:45,479
writer said it was Jesus, that's
okay. I'm I'm I can live with

3424
04:54:45,599 --> 04:54:51,479
that. I'm not gonna abandon Christianity
because of that. And I think the

3425
04:54:51,720 --> 04:54:56,479
view of the inspiration of the word
of God is like being God literally speaking,

3426
04:54:56,520 --> 04:55:00,119
This is like, this is God
God. Do you believe that,

3427
04:55:00,200 --> 04:55:03,439
I want to say, the Bible
says that what they say, No,

3428
04:55:03,639 --> 04:55:07,319
God says this. God says this, And it's like Paul talking about it.

3429
04:55:07,439 --> 04:55:12,479
Do you believe that the account of
Judas's death is a contradiction? No,

3430
04:55:12,959 --> 04:55:17,840
that one is no problem for me. But it's the similar it's a

3431
04:55:17,880 --> 04:55:22,159
similar type of thing, right.
So like if if we're admitting in the

3432
04:55:22,240 --> 04:55:26,799
case of Judas's death that one gospel
writer can emphasize the body falling and busting

3433
04:55:26,880 --> 04:55:30,279
open, and the other gospel writer
can emphasize that he hung himself, Like,

3434
04:55:30,400 --> 04:55:33,400
by your logic, it should be
either or right, because just like

3435
04:55:33,479 --> 04:55:37,959
in this case, it should be
either or To me, it's more like

3436
04:55:38,159 --> 04:55:44,479
one writer says that Judas hung himself
and another writer said that somebody hung Judas.

3437
04:55:44,840 --> 04:55:48,439
No, it talks about his body
falling, talks about his body falling

3438
04:55:48,479 --> 04:55:53,560
and busting open. Yeah, So
that's I mean, I that's fine because

3439
04:55:53,599 --> 04:56:00,720
it's it's two very different things that
you can synthesize and harm harm whereas this

3440
04:56:00,000 --> 04:56:07,560
is it's the same event. But
again, have you ever been so if

3441
04:56:07,599 --> 04:56:11,639
you've been in an event where a
lot of people are you know, I

3442
04:56:11,720 --> 04:56:15,240
mean, Jesus the most controversial person
history, Right, I'm not that controversial.

3443
04:56:15,319 --> 04:56:19,639
But I've been to live events where
people stand up and yell at you,

3444
04:56:19,880 --> 04:56:25,279
and they yell out, you know, things that you've said. Bryce

3445
04:56:25,360 --> 04:56:27,599
and Gray came to a live event
yelling things out. We were yelling back

3446
04:56:27,639 --> 04:56:32,520
and forth. The crowd got involved, the other debaters got involved. So

3447
04:56:32,639 --> 04:56:37,759
if a person was at that event
recording they have, they might record emphases

3448
04:56:37,880 --> 04:56:41,680
of and Bryson Gray was saying blah
blah blah and bryceon Gray was refuted by

3449
04:56:41,720 --> 04:56:45,200
his own arguments, right. Other
persons might record that, and Jay was

3450
04:56:45,240 --> 04:56:48,119
replying to Bryson and blah blah blah. Right, So it's two different accounts

3451
04:56:48,119 --> 04:56:52,799
of the same event, emphasizing different
things. Again, to me, this

3452
04:56:52,000 --> 04:56:56,639
just doesn't I would I need a
harder version of a contradiction to me,

3453
04:56:56,720 --> 04:57:00,759
this is just to me, it
just seems like a week one. Honestly,

3454
04:57:00,919 --> 04:57:06,560
I mean, is there a I
mean, if we already, if

3455
04:57:06,639 --> 04:57:11,119
you harmonize them, so then you
basically have to say something along the lines

3456
04:57:11,360 --> 04:57:15,000
of this. Christ asked this question
at the end, when when the Lord

3457
04:57:15,119 --> 04:57:19,439
therefar for the vineyard cometh, what
will he do unto those husbandmen? And

3458
04:57:19,560 --> 04:57:26,119
then they say, unto him,
he will miserably destroy those wicked men,

3459
04:57:26,200 --> 04:57:29,840
and let out his vineyard unto other
husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits

3460
04:57:29,919 --> 04:57:33,880
in their season right. And so
imagine the situation. So at the same

3461
04:57:33,040 --> 04:57:42,240
time Jesus says, uh, what
therefore shall the Lord of the vineyard do?

3462
04:57:42,360 --> 04:57:45,479
He'll come and destroy the husbandmen and
will give the vineyard to others.

3463
04:57:45,919 --> 04:57:49,520
And then they give this long answer
to it's just like it doesn't make any

3464
04:57:49,560 --> 04:57:55,720
sense. It makes more sense that
they're just they've got their sources and there's

3465
04:57:55,799 --> 04:57:57,479
a little bit of a difference there, Like I don't have a problem with

3466
04:57:57,599 --> 04:58:02,159
it, but they both can't.
I mean, I don't want to say

3467
04:58:02,279 --> 04:58:07,000
can't, but they both don't seem
to come. So what I'm saying,

3468
04:58:07,080 --> 04:58:11,680
Yeah, but what I'm saying is
that if it's not on the surface a

3469
04:58:11,799 --> 04:58:18,119
contradiction, that we have to assume
that that it can't be reconciled through emphasizing

3470
04:58:18,639 --> 04:58:22,080
the crowd and Jesus saying the same
thing, like, I mean, I've

3471
04:58:22,159 --> 04:58:26,279
had that kind of thing happen in
crowd argumentation. So like, imagine that

3472
04:58:26,400 --> 04:58:30,319
we're imagine, let me let me
give another example words maybe a little more

3473
04:58:30,360 --> 04:58:33,400
applicable. Right, Imagine I'm debating
a bunch of Muslims and one thing I've

3474
04:58:33,439 --> 04:58:37,520
always said is that you know,
God is one and many, and the

3475
04:58:37,599 --> 04:58:41,639
Muslims always say one one, one
equal to one. Right. So imagine

3476
04:58:41,680 --> 04:58:45,080
that I'm making fun or I'm provoking
Muslims in a debate, and I say,

3477
04:58:45,319 --> 04:58:48,080
the Muslims always say one one,
one equal one, and then the

3478
04:58:48,159 --> 04:58:52,240
Muslims reply to me, of jash
so as the muslim say one one,

3479
04:58:52,279 --> 04:58:56,360
one equal one? Right? Is
it a contradiction if one person says that

3480
04:58:56,400 --> 04:59:00,639
the Muslim said it, another person
says that I said it. No,

3481
04:59:00,880 --> 04:59:06,000
And I understand your explaination, right, But I mean, why why can't

3482
04:59:06,080 --> 04:59:10,000
that happen if it seems like a
very common type of thing that happens in

3483
04:59:10,599 --> 04:59:15,799
big crowd level debates. Uh,
just because when I put them, when

3484
04:59:15,840 --> 04:59:21,319
I put these two, when I
put these accounts side by side, that

3485
04:59:21,479 --> 04:59:26,840
just doesn't seem like the most reasonable
explanation to me. And that's just my

3486
04:59:26,040 --> 04:59:30,240
preference or anything. But I think
that the deeper point of this is,

3487
04:59:30,000 --> 04:59:37,560
like if you have a Christian who
is convinced that there's a contradiction all right,

3488
04:59:37,759 --> 04:59:42,799
like like I am of one.
Even though it's small and pretty insignificant,

3489
04:59:44,080 --> 04:59:47,520
you know, it's the most significant. It's significant to me because it's

3490
04:59:47,599 --> 04:59:52,680
Christ speaking or not, you know. But so so that sounds like it

3491
04:59:52,759 --> 04:59:56,880
sounds like you came from like a
Protestant evangelical background, and then you have

3492
04:59:56,000 --> 05:00:02,799
the idea that there's this sort of
mechanistic view of inspiration, like you know,

3493
05:00:02,959 --> 05:00:04,680
like they're possessed and they write the
text or something like that, like

3494
05:00:04,799 --> 05:00:07,639
there's not a human element to it
or something like that. I mean,

3495
05:00:08,279 --> 05:00:12,799
is that your background, like Protestant
Evangelical, Yes, yes, right,

3496
05:00:14,799 --> 05:00:19,479
And and the thing is you're you're
taught that like if there's if there's one

3497
05:00:19,720 --> 05:00:23,240
error, then it's all then it's
all untrue. You might as well toss

3498
05:00:23,319 --> 05:00:27,279
it in the trash can and you
know, e drink can be merry for

3499
05:00:27,360 --> 05:00:32,360
tomorrow we die. And I just
feel like that's dangerous and I think it

3500
05:00:32,479 --> 05:00:36,599
causes people to have problems that like
it almost caused me to have problems instead.

3501
05:00:36,639 --> 05:00:38,560
I just changed my view of inspiration. And it's not just because of

3502
05:00:38,599 --> 05:00:44,919
this one text, but for a
lot of just learning more about how the

3503
05:00:45,080 --> 05:00:49,919
Bible was written and transmitted, and
and just realizing that, you know,

3504
05:00:51,240 --> 05:00:56,360
when you read Christ speaking in the
Gospel of John, that he probably didn't

3505
05:00:56,439 --> 05:01:00,560
say those exact words. You know, it's probably something along though as lines.

3506
05:01:00,240 --> 05:01:03,279
And people just say, you know, God said this, and God

3507
05:01:03,400 --> 05:01:07,439
said that, and they're you know, reading from I don't know, ruth

3508
05:01:07,720 --> 05:01:11,680
or you know, okay, and
so what and what is your view?

3509
05:01:11,799 --> 05:01:18,799
Now? My view is that the
authors of scription. Now what what religious

3510
05:01:18,880 --> 05:01:23,880
view do you have? Now?
I'm a Baptist, so I don't know

3511
05:01:25,279 --> 05:01:30,080
how so but you were reading about
the formation and history of the Bible,

3512
05:01:30,159 --> 05:01:36,560
and you're a Baptist. Oh yeah, I love and like secularly, but

3513
05:01:37,799 --> 05:01:41,040
how do you if you know about
the history of the Bible, then why

3514
05:01:41,040 --> 05:01:44,360
would you be Baptist Because that has
nothing to do with being Baptists. Like

3515
05:01:44,560 --> 05:01:49,479
the Bible? Who put the Bible
together? Like who formed the cannon?

3516
05:01:49,680 --> 05:01:56,720
Yeah? Well, actually, I
mean I can't speak a lot to that.

3517
05:01:56,799 --> 05:01:59,520
I know Catholics say that they did, you know, or whatever,

3518
05:01:59,680 --> 05:02:02,840
But and that's fine. I don't
have a problem with that. I'm talking

3519
05:02:02,959 --> 05:02:11,119
more about you know, I've read
about manuscripts and how they're discovered in Egypt

3520
05:02:11,240 --> 05:02:14,840
in different places, and okay,
and that's what what is that? What

3521
05:02:14,919 --> 05:02:18,639
are you talking about, Nagamadi?
What do I mean? Yeah, but

3522
05:02:18,720 --> 05:02:23,680
that's the Gno. They find codexes, they find codexes, they are like

3523
05:02:25,799 --> 05:02:30,119
I'm aware, I know that the
books that are strange. It's like Jonah

3524
05:02:30,560 --> 05:02:33,200
and an Epistle. Yeah. I
would just okay, d thank you,

3525
05:02:34,279 --> 05:02:37,560
all right. I would say I'll
look into the history of the formation of

3526
05:02:37,599 --> 05:02:44,799
the Canon and that will raise interesting
questions about the church. Idara, what's

3527
05:02:44,880 --> 05:02:52,159
up? Aiden? Yeah? Again, must manly p. Hall's philosophy is

3528
05:02:52,279 --> 05:02:56,520
not coherent, and I'm happy to
address that. Aiden, if you want

3529
05:02:56,560 --> 05:03:00,799
to come back on. But I
don't see you in the chat. So

3530
05:03:02,439 --> 05:03:11,000
Adara, what's up? Yeah,
I'm mute. Oh hi, I'm so

3531
05:03:11,200 --> 05:03:17,319
sorry. I was on YouTube.
I'm going to put on I'm going to

3532
05:03:17,360 --> 05:03:19,240
put you on. I was going
through the spaces. I'm going to put

3533
05:03:19,279 --> 05:03:23,840
you on something real quick. I
want to participate because I've had some really

3534
05:03:25,720 --> 05:03:29,479
interesting experiences. I'm someone that grew
up as a Christian, but I was

3535
05:03:29,560 --> 05:03:33,919
someone who was really curious if God
really existence, just something I really always

3536
05:03:33,959 --> 05:03:37,240
wanted to know, and I sort
of believed, you know, miracles and

3537
05:03:37,240 --> 05:03:41,080
the stuff in the Bible should happen, but I just didn't know how.

3538
05:03:41,279 --> 05:03:44,959
I mean, it just kind of
seemed like, if it says that this

3539
05:03:45,119 --> 05:03:47,919
is possible in the Bible, should
be true. But do you have an

3540
05:03:48,000 --> 05:03:53,840
argument about the topics or oh,
the topic about which faith is? All

3541
05:03:53,919 --> 05:03:56,680
right, I'm not trying to be
rude, but so the topic was debate,

3542
05:03:56,840 --> 05:04:02,080
right, Debating Protestantism Witholicism is on
atheism, and so for people to

3543
05:04:02,159 --> 05:04:04,439
come on, you need to have
a question to debate a topic to debate.

3544
05:04:06,159 --> 05:04:10,360
Jack? What's up? Jack?
What's up? Jet? What's up?

3545
05:04:10,439 --> 05:04:12,840
Jeck? We're going full manson on
y'all. What's up Jeck? You've

3546
05:04:12,880 --> 05:04:25,319
got you aiden sos of dollars?
Says I've calmed down. I ordered a

3547
05:04:25,360 --> 05:04:30,720
dictionary apologize from crackhead gen Z.
I am conservative black man on X.

3548
05:04:33,000 --> 05:04:38,000
I thought you were Aiden. So
Jack, do you want to speak or

3549
05:04:38,880 --> 05:04:48,599
you just wanted to sit there for
a long time? Elliott Smith? What's

3550
05:04:48,680 --> 05:04:52,520
up? Elliott? All right?
My next starting to hurt. I'll know

3551
05:04:52,639 --> 05:04:55,680
much more. I can go,
by the way, if you guys want

3552
05:04:55,680 --> 05:05:00,840
to support FDA. You can do
so by getting the link to you Lower

3553
05:05:00,959 --> 05:05:06,840
Coffee, an excellent Orthodox coffee brand
that you see behind me. The link

3554
05:05:06,919 --> 05:05:10,200
is in the show description. I'll
also put it in the chat right here.

3555
05:05:11,799 --> 05:05:18,880
Elliott, you want to unmute or
what's up? Hey? J uh

3556
05:05:18,959 --> 05:05:26,040
huh? Yeah? J how you
doing good? You have to mute me

3557
05:05:26,159 --> 05:05:30,799
in the background, dude, can
you hear me? Okay? Yeah,

3558
05:05:30,680 --> 05:05:34,680
I'm not in the agnostic or I've
been an agnostic for most of my life,

3559
05:05:34,720 --> 05:05:41,200
but raised Christian, kind of leaning
back towards Christianity and Deism. But

3560
05:05:41,279 --> 05:05:48,880
I'm trying to figure out the Orthodox
perspective on creationism. And I know you're

3561
05:05:48,880 --> 05:05:52,799
a creationist, I guess, But
I'm trying to understand why is that critical

3562
05:05:52,880 --> 05:06:02,240
to Orthodox like faith to accept the
interpretation of genesis of creation because it ties

3563
05:06:02,279 --> 05:06:06,560
into christology and the doctrine of Christ
and what Christ did as the second atom.

3564
05:06:06,720 --> 05:06:11,720
So Christ can't be like a second
evolutionary atom. He's got to be

3565
05:06:11,799 --> 05:06:18,520
the same atom as Adam. Okay, but why can't? So? Why

3566
05:06:18,680 --> 05:06:25,639
why why can't you accept like a
sort of like a what do you call

3567
05:06:25,680 --> 05:06:29,799
it? I mean, there's other
reasons as well. Like death is unnatural.

3568
05:06:29,919 --> 05:06:33,200
It's not a natural thing. For
Orthodoxy, it's unnatural. In Roman's

3569
05:06:33,240 --> 05:06:37,439
eight, all of creation is subjected
to bondage, and so Christ's recapitulation would

3570
05:06:37,479 --> 05:06:45,479
be undone if if Christ isn't the
second atom, if he doesn't recapitulate all

3571
05:06:45,560 --> 05:06:51,840
reality like Adam did. Okay,
so intelligent design would not work like like

3572
05:06:52,000 --> 05:06:56,279
God sort of starting the evolutionary process
in motion that resulted in death is a

3573
05:06:56,319 --> 05:07:00,880
result of the fall. It's not
a thing that exists for AONs to produce

3574
05:07:00,880 --> 05:07:06,720
Adam and Eve. Death is the
result of the fall. So there would

3575
05:07:06,720 --> 05:07:10,040
be no death without the fall.
So it's not a thing that exists for

3576
05:07:10,159 --> 05:07:17,560
AONs to produce Adam and Eve.
Okay, So like all animals would would

3577
05:07:17,639 --> 05:07:22,639
not die, there's no death before
Adam and Eve. Therefore, death as

3578
05:07:22,680 --> 05:07:29,240
a process of evolution cannot be the
thing that exists for AONs to produce Adam

3579
05:07:29,240 --> 05:07:33,279
and Eve. Okay, Okay,
Okay, I get it, I get

3580
05:07:33,319 --> 05:07:37,360
it. Okay. So then I
guess I don't want to get into a

3581
05:07:37,479 --> 05:07:40,599
huge scientific debby well, I mean, let let's just we can do like

3582
05:07:40,720 --> 05:07:44,119
the philosophy of science debate, because
I mean I'm not trying to be mean

3583
05:07:44,119 --> 05:07:45,840
to you. I'm just saying,
like, most of the time, people

3584
05:07:45,919 --> 05:07:48,799
that argue this stuff can never tell
me why I'm supposed to believe in their

3585
05:07:49,400 --> 05:07:56,200
theory of science. Well, I
mean there's a there's a scientific process.

3586
05:07:56,360 --> 05:07:59,479
You accept that that you accept the
scientific process, right, Yeah, I

3587
05:07:59,520 --> 05:08:03,080
know, I'm asked about the philosophy
of science. Okay, Well, I

3588
05:08:03,119 --> 05:08:07,080
don't know if I'm equipped to debate
the philosophy of science, but I guess

3589
05:08:07,119 --> 05:08:12,319
I'd just like to understand, like, how do you reject modern science?

3590
05:08:12,479 --> 05:08:18,840
Is like contention that the Earth is
like four and a half billion years old

3591
05:08:18,919 --> 05:08:22,759
based on radiometric dating, and because
of that, all of that is based

3592
05:08:22,840 --> 05:08:29,759
on presubsitions baked into the measurements themselves, and that people making these claims are

3593
05:08:29,799 --> 05:08:33,880
going outside of the balands of what
can be known from observation and making gigantic

3594
05:08:34,000 --> 05:08:38,840
metaphysical leaps and telling me gigantic stories
about the origins of the universe, which

3595
05:08:38,919 --> 05:08:45,880
is not justified on the basis of
a lot of times physics things that are

3596
05:08:45,959 --> 05:08:49,759
occurring that can be explained on both
models. So a creationist and an evolutionary

3597
05:08:49,840 --> 05:08:55,200
theorist or a big bang theorist or
whatever. They can both have equally accurate

3598
05:08:56,000 --> 05:09:00,959
descriptions of various phenomenon, So the
phenomenon themselves are not going to tell us

3599
05:09:00,040 --> 05:09:06,119
the gigantic age variations and differences.
So that's when I say, how does

3600
05:09:06,159 --> 05:09:14,680
empirical observation tell me O preori all
of these gigantic descriptions of AONs of time?

3601
05:09:15,680 --> 05:09:18,040
And the people that I asked that
question to can never even tell me

3602
05:09:18,080 --> 05:09:22,919
about their epistemic theory to begin with, or why I should believe in empiricism.

3603
05:09:22,119 --> 05:09:26,080
So for me, none of it
philosophically gets off the ground because they

3604
05:09:26,119 --> 05:09:30,360
don't even realize they're assuming all these
metaphysical things and all these all of these

3605
05:09:30,400 --> 05:09:36,000
things that go way outside the bounds
of what empirical sense data can actually verify.

3606
05:09:37,279 --> 05:09:42,919
Okay, so you're saying the scientific
process itself is not undergirded by like

3607
05:09:44,400 --> 05:09:48,680
a proper philosophical basis. Yeah,
I'm saying that most of the time,

3608
05:09:49,080 --> 05:09:57,080
the average biologist or life science guy
or a physicist. I'm trying to think

3609
05:09:57,080 --> 05:10:03,799
of the people that I've had debates
with from the science realm neurobiologists, neuroscientists,

3610
05:10:04,599 --> 05:10:07,080
like they don't know anything about philosophy. And I'm not saying that makes

3611
05:10:07,119 --> 05:10:11,560
my position true. I'm just saying
that when I start asking them questions about

3612
05:10:11,599 --> 05:10:15,240
the scientific method, I think they
can't justify the method. But the method

3613
05:10:15,319 --> 05:10:18,639
is supposed to be the thing that, in their view confirms this idea of

3614
05:10:19,240 --> 05:10:23,840
gigantic metaphysical truths. So how are
we going to get back to metaphysical truths

3615
05:10:23,880 --> 05:10:29,880
when modern scientists is premised on rejecting
metaphysics. Well, I don't think.

3616
05:10:30,040 --> 05:10:33,799
I don't think figuring out how old
the Earth is a giant metaphysical question.

3617
05:10:33,880 --> 05:10:37,240
It's just well, there you go. So there you just you just demonstrated

3618
05:10:37,279 --> 05:10:42,680
my point that science eve men have
no idea what metaphysics is. They even

3619
05:10:42,720 --> 05:10:47,680
realize that absolutely that's a gigantic metaphysical
question. Of course it does well,

3620
05:10:47,759 --> 05:10:52,919
it has, It has gigantic metaphysical
consequences. But the science itself is when

3621
05:10:52,000 --> 05:10:59,000
someone's conducting a scientific experiment or analyzing
data, or looking at rheiometric evolution,

3622
05:10:59,240 --> 05:11:02,400
you know, processes igneous rock.
Okay, what do you think? What

3623
05:11:02,479 --> 05:11:08,840
do you think metaphysics is? What? I can't give you a definition of

3624
05:11:08,919 --> 05:11:14,080
metaphysics, but a whole lot so
you don't you know that science isn't making

3625
05:11:14,159 --> 05:11:18,319
metaphysical claims? But you don't know
what metaphysics is? No, I think

3626
05:11:18,360 --> 05:11:22,000
that has metaphysical consequences. I don't
think. I don't think a scientist has

3627
05:11:22,040 --> 05:11:26,360
to be a philosopher, I mean
a grand philosopher of metaphysics. Right.

3628
05:11:26,439 --> 05:11:30,439
A scientist can just be doing scientist
a scientific experience experiments. Yeah, but

3629
05:11:30,919 --> 05:11:34,200
that misses the whole point that I've
just been making that you don't realize when

3630
05:11:34,240 --> 05:11:38,439
you're going outside the balands of what
the tool of the scientific method can tell

3631
05:11:38,479 --> 05:11:42,080
you and what it can do,
and you end up making these gigantic metaphysical

3632
05:11:42,119 --> 05:11:45,439
claims. And that's the thing I'm
calling into question. And then when I

3633
05:11:45,479 --> 05:11:48,520
ask you what that is, you
tell me you don't know what that is.

3634
05:11:49,840 --> 05:11:52,200
Well, I mean, just just
to get it back to basics.

3635
05:11:52,439 --> 05:11:55,479
Wait a minute, so yeah,
let's back to basics. So how do

3636
05:11:55,560 --> 05:11:59,360
you know that they're not making metaphysical
claims if you don't know what metaphysics is.

3637
05:12:03,680 --> 05:12:12,680
I I don't know that they're I
No, I don't know that they're

3638
05:12:12,720 --> 05:12:17,799
making metaphysical claims. You're right,
But I know that they're making scientific claims,

3639
05:12:17,919 --> 05:12:22,279
right, so you're you're just you're
trying to poke holes in the scientific

3640
05:12:22,400 --> 05:12:26,439
process. By no, you totally
misunderstood what I said. I just said,

3641
05:12:26,439 --> 05:12:30,799
the scientific process is a tool for
uh doing certain things studying the natural

3642
05:12:30,880 --> 05:12:33,319
world. It can't give you the
things they want to make it do.

3643
05:12:33,560 --> 05:12:37,880
That's what I said. So I
absolutely believe that I did not. I

3644
05:12:37,959 --> 05:12:41,439
never questioned the scientific method. Okay, so just a basic question. So

3645
05:12:41,560 --> 05:12:48,680
why why does radiometric dating why cannot
why cannot give you? Cannot give you

3646
05:12:48,840 --> 05:12:51,959
evidence of the age of the Earth
in millions of years or billions of years

3647
05:12:52,000 --> 05:12:56,560
because the methodology already has in the
system baked into it the long eons of

3648
05:12:56,639 --> 05:13:00,279
billions of year date. It presupposed. This is the thing that I'm questioning.

3649
05:13:02,680 --> 05:13:06,560
That's why I said both models.
Are you familiar? Hold on,

3650
05:13:06,759 --> 05:13:15,360
are you familiar with what's called the
underdetermination of data problem? Vaguely? I

3651
05:13:15,439 --> 05:13:22,520
mean, I think I get what
you're going What is it? Vaguely underdetermination

3652
05:13:22,639 --> 05:13:30,159
of data? You're saying that you're
drawing a conclusion from the data. They

3653
05:13:30,240 --> 05:13:33,279
cannot be drawn, is what you're
saying. Right, No, it's a

3654
05:13:33,319 --> 05:13:44,000
problem in pistemology where certain theories can
be accurately and sufficiently explained by different models,

3655
05:13:44,319 --> 05:13:48,840
and so piling up more evidences or
more data, for example, is

3656
05:13:48,919 --> 05:13:52,200
not immediately going to tell you which
paradigm can explain the same data. So

3657
05:13:52,240 --> 05:13:59,560
it's a famous problem in epistemology where
it's a way to demonstrate or show that

3658
05:14:00,040 --> 05:14:03,400
just having more data isn't going to
tell you the paradigm of the data.

3659
05:14:04,159 --> 05:14:07,560
And so that's why it doesn't work
to say, yeah, but I can

3660
05:14:07,639 --> 05:14:11,119
give you more and more examples of
data which proves the age of the day,

3661
05:14:11,279 --> 05:14:14,520
which is at the age of the
earth, which is based on the

3662
05:14:14,560 --> 05:14:18,159
thing that's in question. So what
I'm saying is that so like radiometric dating

3663
05:14:19,479 --> 05:14:25,319
or the similarities between like the uh, you know, percentage of DNA that's

3664
05:14:25,479 --> 05:14:30,799
shared between apes and man, both
the creationists and the evolutionists model both have

3665
05:14:30,680 --> 05:14:36,799
both have explanatory models of the data
the same data. So it's what I'm

3666
05:14:36,799 --> 05:14:42,639
saying is that data doesn't solve the
underdetermination of data problem. Okay, but

3667
05:14:42,759 --> 05:14:48,520
what about when different strains of science, different disciplines of science match the same

3668
05:14:48,639 --> 05:14:53,919
theory, In other words, they
they corroborate the theory. Well that I

3669
05:14:55,000 --> 05:14:57,680
mean that depends on the theory of
questions. Well, it depends on what's

3670
05:14:57,680 --> 05:15:02,200
in question. So but that isn't
going to to tell you the metaphysical claims.

3671
05:15:02,279 --> 05:15:04,240
That's what I'm trying to say.
It's it's never going to get you

3672
05:15:04,319 --> 05:15:11,319
there. Yeah, I mean I
understand that if you have different disciplines of

3673
05:15:11,360 --> 05:15:15,439
science and they all point to the
Earth being four point five billion years old,

3674
05:15:15,680 --> 05:15:19,520
that could be biogeography, it could
be play tectonic, it could be

3675
05:15:19,799 --> 05:15:25,880
yeah, but those models all assume
the models already assume the thing in question,

3676
05:15:26,400 --> 05:15:29,639
right, That's what I'm pointing out. So your just point because all

3677
05:15:29,680 --> 05:15:34,360
of the people producing those papers and
those models already believe in the long date

3678
05:15:34,639 --> 05:15:38,319
thesis. And I'm saying, so
you're I mean, I agree with this

3679
05:15:38,439 --> 05:15:41,799
theory, like when it comes to
climate change, but I have a harder

3680
05:15:41,880 --> 05:15:45,200
time connecting. Wait a minute,
Oh, so the system only lies about

3681
05:15:45,240 --> 05:15:48,159
climate change? Does it lie about
gender studies or not? Is that like,

3682
05:15:48,319 --> 05:15:51,759
because I do meet a bunch of
doctors that tell me that I can

3683
05:15:51,799 --> 05:15:56,240
be a woman, I think it
definitely lies about that too. Oh okay,

3684
05:15:56,360 --> 05:15:59,159
but they don't lie about anything else, Is that right? No?

3685
05:15:59,319 --> 05:16:02,560
I mean I'm I'm I'm open to
the possibility that, But I mean,

3686
05:16:02,599 --> 05:16:07,759
are you suggesting that it's it's almost
like an unspoken conspiracy about all these disciplines

3687
05:16:07,799 --> 05:16:11,919
of science that are I'm saying that
they make them the same mistake that you

3688
05:16:11,080 --> 05:16:15,520
make, which is to think that
looking at a piece of data like a

3689
05:16:15,680 --> 05:16:25,200
rock or geologic structures itself a priori
gives you an AONs timeline of date when

3690
05:16:25,599 --> 05:16:30,319
the same model of a creationist model
can accurately and sufficiently explain that as well.

3691
05:16:30,720 --> 05:16:34,560
So in other words, we're looking
at let's say, strata of I

3692
05:16:34,560 --> 05:16:37,959
don't know, like in the Grand
Canyon or something, and we see these

3693
05:16:37,000 --> 05:16:42,560
different layers of dirt and whatnot,
and one model says, oh, the

3694
05:16:42,720 --> 05:16:47,759
only way that this could have been
produced is over AONs of time, And

3695
05:16:47,880 --> 05:16:51,080
I say, well, but wait
a minute. There was a thing that

3696
05:16:51,200 --> 05:16:56,560
opened up in South Dakota overnight and
it's basically a mini Grand Canyon that happened

3697
05:16:56,840 --> 05:16:59,880
like that, So how do I
know? So in other words, I

3698
05:17:00,159 --> 05:17:03,799
might look at the thing that opened
up overnight in Montana whenever I can show

3699
05:17:03,799 --> 05:17:07,119
you the article, and I might
look at the structure and the layers there

3700
05:17:07,159 --> 05:17:10,680
and say, oh, the only
way this canyon could have formed is clearly

3701
05:17:11,000 --> 05:17:12,919
by you know, one hundred million
years, there's no other way to explain

3702
05:17:14,000 --> 05:17:17,639
it. Or one other example,
the fly geyser. Why this, you

3703
05:17:17,720 --> 05:17:22,720
know, stalactite, stalagmite structures like
this, these calcium deposits, they can

3704
05:17:22,840 --> 05:17:26,720
only form in you know, ten
million years. That's how long it takes

3705
05:17:26,720 --> 05:17:30,400
for it to build up, when
everybody knows the fly geys are built up

3706
05:17:30,439 --> 05:17:33,959
over forty years. So what I'm
saying is that the models themselves are going

3707
05:17:34,040 --> 05:17:38,520
to reinterpret the data that's in front
of us to fit the model. So

3708
05:17:38,639 --> 05:17:42,919
every time you tell me that,
well there's another science team that says that

3709
05:17:44,080 --> 05:17:48,080
it takes a zillion years for the
light from Zaeta reticuli to get to Earth.

3710
05:17:48,880 --> 05:17:52,840
Well, God can create a universe
where the light is already present from

3711
05:17:52,959 --> 05:17:56,919
Zeta reticuli. It didn't spin spin
off from a single big bang that took

3712
05:17:56,959 --> 05:18:00,520
a billion years to get here,
right, You see, both models can

3713
05:18:00,599 --> 05:18:04,200
accurately sufficiently interpret data, and so
more and more data, which is what

3714
05:18:04,279 --> 05:18:07,000
you're talking about when you tell me
that you can pile up science papers and

3715
05:18:07,040 --> 05:18:11,919
science men, more and more data
is never going to get you to proving

3716
05:18:11,279 --> 05:18:17,119
the model that interprets the data.
That's why philosophy of science is prior to

3717
05:18:17,200 --> 05:18:25,000
doing science. Sure, but I
think empirical science can also build models.

3718
05:18:25,119 --> 05:18:27,080
Right, you can go again.
No, so you just showed that you

3719
05:18:27,119 --> 05:18:29,680
don't know what you're talking about right
there. Now, I'm trying to be

3720
05:18:29,759 --> 05:18:34,799
mean to you. But by definition, empirical science cannot build you a model

3721
05:18:36,119 --> 05:18:41,880
because models deal with prior to science, things like epistemology and metaphysics. So

3722
05:18:41,959 --> 05:18:44,639
maybe we mean different things about models
there. I'm talking about world views.

3723
05:18:45,279 --> 05:18:47,479
Yes, yes, we do,
we do. Yeah, Okay, I

3724
05:18:47,560 --> 05:18:49,080
know, I get what you're saying. So how far are you on to

3725
05:18:49,119 --> 05:18:53,759
go with this? I mean the
Biblical the Biblical story of creation, and

3726
05:18:55,200 --> 05:18:57,959
so is your I'll tell you what
how about it? Well, you tell

3727
05:18:59,040 --> 05:19:02,119
me what the model is, right? So what am I supposed I'm supposed

3728
05:19:02,119 --> 05:19:06,520
to believe in? What empirical science? How does empirical science tell me?

3729
05:19:06,639 --> 05:19:12,000
First of all, what happened uh
on Earth one billion or one hundred million

3730
05:19:12,040 --> 05:19:19,360
years ago? I mean I could
go with I mean you want me to

3731
05:19:19,400 --> 05:19:23,720
go into science, I mean it
would be through the geologic record, But

3732
05:19:25,439 --> 05:19:29,439
that's not empirical data of what happened
eleven millionaire years ago. That's an interpretation

3733
05:19:29,720 --> 05:19:36,200
of of evidence. Yet, well, it's an interpretation of objects, rocks,

3734
05:19:36,880 --> 05:19:41,560
layers of strata, right, Yeah, and where where when you look

3735
05:19:42,000 --> 05:19:45,759
when you look at that strata or
that rock, where does any of that

3736
05:19:45,959 --> 05:19:52,159
tell you a date? It tells
you a date based on the ratio.

3737
05:19:52,680 --> 05:19:56,479
So now that's interpretation. So that's
my point. The empirical evidence in front

3738
05:19:56,479 --> 05:20:00,200
of you does not tell you anything
like that. You interpret the evidence according

3739
05:20:00,240 --> 05:20:03,040
to the paradigm. And the question
is, how do you know you have

3740
05:20:03,119 --> 05:20:06,240
the right paradigm? Maybe you do, but how do you know that?

3741
05:20:07,560 --> 05:20:11,319
Okay, So what you're telling me
is that we need scientists that accept the

3742
05:20:11,479 --> 05:20:14,720
view that the Earth is about ten
thousand years old. Then they need to

3743
05:20:14,799 --> 05:20:18,040
start doing science based on that paradigm
and they will figure it out. They

3744
05:20:18,080 --> 05:20:22,759
will figure out that the rocks are
really not that old. No, I've

3745
05:20:22,799 --> 05:20:26,439
just been giving you classic arguments and
examples from philosophy of science about how philosophy

3746
05:20:26,560 --> 05:20:30,439
is prior to the doing of science. But everybody does science doesn't recognize this

3747
05:20:30,560 --> 05:20:33,639
and doesn't know what I'm talking about
or what philosophers are talking about. They

3748
05:20:33,680 --> 05:20:37,360
think they're just playing word games or
something when they're asking real questions about the

3749
05:20:37,720 --> 05:20:44,000
things that are underlie the scientific method. How what makes the scientific method possible?

3750
05:20:44,080 --> 05:20:47,119
That's the things I'm talking about,
and those things I find that that's

3751
05:20:47,159 --> 05:20:49,479
fascinating. Okay, but guess what. Those things are not in the purview

3752
05:20:49,560 --> 05:20:53,159
of the scientific method, so they
can never get you to that. But

3753
05:20:53,319 --> 05:20:56,799
did science just go off the rails? Then? I mean, what happened?

3754
05:20:56,840 --> 05:21:00,639
Why have all these disciplines of science
go on off the rails and taken

3755
05:21:00,680 --> 05:21:07,720
on this erroneous theory. I already
explained earlier that science and scientists typically don't

3756
05:21:07,720 --> 05:21:11,319
know anything about philosophy, and so
they don't know when they're talking about metaphysical

3757
05:21:11,400 --> 05:21:14,479
claims that go outside the bounds of
the limits of their system and their science.

3758
05:21:15,840 --> 05:21:18,479
But you're suggesting that there's a boundary
that they shall not cross. If

3759
05:21:18,520 --> 05:21:23,599
the science takes them somewhere they crosses
a metaphysical boundary, they should not cross

3760
05:21:23,680 --> 05:21:26,200
that boundary. But that's now I'm
saying that they need to give an account

3761
05:21:26,240 --> 05:21:29,799
for what they're talking about if they
cross the boundary, and that they're not.

3762
05:21:30,000 --> 05:21:33,439
They're subject to their own limitations.
But they don't even realize that because

3763
05:21:33,439 --> 05:21:36,919
they don't know what they're doing when
they do it. So it has nothing

3764
05:21:36,959 --> 05:21:41,040
to do with all of scientists in
the world going off course and buying into

3765
05:21:41,119 --> 05:21:45,759
some grand conspiracy. It's more so
that people adopted worldviews that became popular,

3766
05:21:45,959 --> 05:21:51,200
normative and were pushed down from the
top from Oxford, Cambridge places like that,

3767
05:21:51,319 --> 05:21:56,799
the Royal Society. They have pushed
this material Empiris's paradigm, which probably

3768
05:21:56,880 --> 05:22:00,279
ninety five percent of the West believes, and it's a non sense sense,

3769
05:22:00,599 --> 05:22:04,479
gibberish paradigm which if they understood it
would actually make science itself impossible. That

3770
05:22:04,560 --> 05:22:08,439
has nothing to do with whether those
people do science. So they can do

3771
05:22:08,639 --> 05:22:11,840
science all day long, and they
can come to true conclusions, they can

3772
05:22:11,880 --> 05:22:17,080
discover things in engineering and mathematics and
whatever. That doesn't mean that they can

3773
05:22:17,159 --> 05:22:21,560
give an account for or justify their
system, their claims, their beliefs,

3774
05:22:22,080 --> 05:22:26,080
or the metaphysics that underlie it.
That's what I'm saying. Okay, that's

3775
05:22:26,119 --> 05:22:27,799
fair. Can you just tell me
real quick then, under your view,

3776
05:22:30,000 --> 05:22:33,439
the Earth was created around seven thousand
to ten thousand years ago, is that

3777
05:22:33,560 --> 05:22:37,479
right? Sure? And was the
whole universe created that moment with the stars

3778
05:22:37,560 --> 05:22:41,439
and the Yeah, I mean that's
have you not read Genesis? Yeah?

3779
05:22:41,520 --> 05:22:47,200
Okay, So and the solar system
as do you accept the conventional solar system

3780
05:22:47,240 --> 05:22:52,040
too? What do you mean by
the conventional solar system? I mean obviously

3781
05:22:52,240 --> 05:22:56,759
like heliocentric model, except I don't
have any I don't have any hard set

3782
05:22:56,840 --> 05:23:06,279
view on any of that. Okay, So do you believe in I mean

3783
05:23:06,360 --> 05:23:11,439
you accept do you accept space travel
and like Mars and Elon Musk and all

3784
05:23:11,479 --> 05:23:18,439
that stuff? Uh? I don't
believe that we're we're gonna fly to Mars?

3785
05:23:18,560 --> 05:23:26,479
No, okay, but exist you
believe that Mars exists and that it

3786
05:23:26,759 --> 05:23:30,919
is rotating around the Sun of course
Mars? Like why would I not believe

3787
05:23:30,959 --> 05:23:37,680
Mars exists? Okay, no,
no, no, no no. I

3788
05:23:37,840 --> 05:23:40,680
was just trying to I was just
trying to understand that after your worldview on

3789
05:23:40,959 --> 05:23:44,560
on the nature of like the Earth
and the Sultan and all that stuff.

3790
05:23:44,759 --> 05:23:47,279
I mean, I I don't claim
to be a physicist or any of those

3791
05:23:47,319 --> 05:23:49,680
things, and I don't have to
be a physicist to ask questions to people

3792
05:23:49,720 --> 05:23:52,759
who make grandiose claims. Right,
So a lot of times. For example,

3793
05:23:52,799 --> 05:23:57,840
people in the science sphere will say
things like, you know, outrageous

3794
05:23:57,959 --> 05:24:03,720
wild you know, claims require outrageous
wild evidences, and so I just hold

3795
05:24:03,759 --> 05:24:06,959
them to the same standard. And
I say, you want me to believe

3796
05:24:07,000 --> 05:24:10,720
that something came out of nothing and
that you know, various species who don't

3797
05:24:10,720 --> 05:24:15,840
even have within their DNA the ability
to be another species produce other species because

3798
05:24:15,880 --> 05:24:18,200
there was a mutation. So to
me, that's a giant non sequitor leap

3799
05:24:18,279 --> 05:24:22,080
that underlies a lot of these kind
of ridiculous pagan myths. I mean,

3800
05:24:22,200 --> 05:24:26,799
to me, the idea that something
comes out of nothing and that one species

3801
05:24:26,919 --> 05:24:30,240
mutates into it transmutates into another species, to me, that's a fairytale stuff.

3802
05:24:30,680 --> 05:24:37,119
So so what about microevolution? Uh, yeah, I don't have a

3803
05:24:37,119 --> 05:24:40,000
problem with that. I mean,
that's just adaptation. We observe that.

3804
05:24:41,919 --> 05:24:52,560
Has anybody ever observed macro transmutation?
No, No, they haven't, doesn't

3805
05:24:52,560 --> 05:24:55,959
exist, they haven't. Well,
I mean, yeah, there's got Oh

3806
05:24:56,000 --> 05:24:57,639
but wait a minute, I thought
you were an empiricist. So where's the

3807
05:24:57,680 --> 05:25:04,799
empirical observation of this? You don't
do metaphysics because that goes up. No,

3808
05:25:06,400 --> 05:25:11,959
where's the empirical of macro transmutations that
you said. I mean, I'm

3809
05:25:12,000 --> 05:25:18,000
not I'm not a hardcore evolutionist in
terms of human evolution, but I just

3810
05:25:18,159 --> 05:25:22,880
have a hard time buying into buying
into the genesis story. That's all so

3811
05:25:23,360 --> 05:25:27,279
well. I have a hard time
buying into the conflicting, contradicting narratives of

3812
05:25:29,360 --> 05:25:33,240
atheist retards who can't make sense of
basic metaphysical claim. So I'll believe your

3813
05:25:33,279 --> 05:25:38,360
science when you're telling me the philosophy
behind the science understood. Can I ask

3814
05:25:38,400 --> 05:25:47,240
you in their question? What is
like in the garden of Eden? So

3815
05:25:47,479 --> 05:25:52,959
when when God created like all the
animals and all the humans and amnies,

3816
05:25:52,479 --> 05:26:00,159
what you you believe that there was
no predatory behavior between the animals like it

3817
05:26:00,200 --> 05:26:04,000
didn't correct. The orthodox view is
that the functioning of the natural world prior

3818
05:26:04,080 --> 05:26:07,560
to the Fall was much different than
it is now. So it's a very

3819
05:26:07,639 --> 05:26:15,560
metaphysically different world when Eden was there
versus the modus operandi post fall. So

3820
05:26:15,159 --> 05:26:22,360
we didn't have, you know,
biologically engineered bodies to you know, try

3821
05:26:22,439 --> 05:26:26,959
to chew meat like I wouldn't need
incisors. The bodies were very different,

3822
05:26:27,080 --> 05:26:30,759
and that's different than most you know, Western theology of the fall and all

3823
05:26:30,799 --> 05:26:37,560
that. So Orthodoxy is a much
more cosmic, metaphysical account of the fall

3824
05:26:37,159 --> 05:26:41,720
and its cosmic scope than what you
typically find in Protestantism and run Catholicism.

3825
05:26:44,319 --> 05:26:49,000
So they don't they don't accept that
view. They believe that animals were predatory.

3826
05:26:49,639 --> 05:27:00,159
Who Catholics. Most Catholics believe in
evolution post humani arrests or whatever plies

3827
05:27:00,200 --> 05:27:06,240
the twelfth. Okay, So so
what you're saying is so we would have

3828
05:27:06,319 --> 05:27:15,799
had microevolution after after creation to become
carnivorous. Yeah, I think all predatorial

3829
05:27:17,360 --> 05:27:19,959
components and the I mean the very
makeup of our bodies to you know,

3830
05:27:21,599 --> 05:27:23,639
take in nutrients from meat, fats, and our guts, all all of

3831
05:27:23,680 --> 05:27:30,119
that is post fall configuring so to
speak. Okay, and do all Orthodox

3832
05:27:30,880 --> 05:27:37,479
churches and priests accept this? Do
they do? They preach this? No?

3833
05:27:37,680 --> 05:27:40,759
But I mean what that doesn't really
have anything to do with whether it's

3834
05:27:40,759 --> 05:27:44,639
trure false because you can read Father
sid from Rose book Genesis Creation Early Man,

3835
05:27:44,959 --> 05:27:49,799
and I mean I'm holding to the
traditional view. Okay, okay,

3836
05:27:49,880 --> 05:27:52,880
So what are you a minority?
Is that a minority view or is that

3837
05:27:52,959 --> 05:28:02,240
the majority view amongst priests or the
doc. Yeah, amongst Orthodox priests,

3838
05:28:03,080 --> 05:28:06,479
I don't even know. I don't
even know that. There's probably never been

3839
05:28:06,560 --> 05:28:11,560
a survey of most. I would
say probably most, like American Orthodox priests

3840
05:28:11,720 --> 05:28:15,319
probably favor something like theistic evolution.
But I have no idea what the percentages

3841
05:28:15,360 --> 05:28:19,080
would be they favorite. Wait,
which one do they favor? They would

3842
05:28:19,080 --> 05:28:26,360
probably favorite theistic evolution because they're taught
in Western universities. Okay, okay,

3843
05:28:26,599 --> 05:28:30,840
I missed. I missed the earlier
part of the show. What were the

3844
05:28:30,919 --> 05:28:37,560
recommended books on creationist science stuff?
Well, the NST Supercreation Research has a

3845
05:28:37,599 --> 05:28:41,119
lot of good stuff. Like doctor
Jason Lyle, his books cover a lot

3846
05:28:41,159 --> 05:28:45,400
of probably what you would be interested
in. But again, I'm not a

3847
05:28:45,520 --> 05:28:49,040
scientist, so I don't I don't
claim to. I mean, people give

3848
05:28:49,240 --> 05:28:56,360
science this sort of like authority in
this power that they don't even really realize

3849
05:28:56,479 --> 05:29:00,680
is like the emperors wearing no clothes, and they think that. I'm like,

3850
05:29:00,799 --> 05:29:03,240
I'm not anti science. I'm just
pointing out that what you think is

3851
05:29:03,360 --> 05:29:08,319
science is actually just a lot of
metaphysics and alternative storytelling. And I would

3852
05:29:08,319 --> 05:29:11,639
say, you know, real hard
science is stuff like engineering, like people

3853
05:29:11,799 --> 05:29:18,599
using principles to build you know,
computers, and you know the outrageous algorithms

3854
05:29:18,639 --> 05:29:21,560
that go into making this you know, Apple computer. That to me,

3855
05:29:21,680 --> 05:29:26,840
that's real science. But people that
you know speculate about what happened eleven million

3856
05:29:26,919 --> 05:29:32,400
years ago and what what the monkey
was doing when it was fighting with the

3857
05:29:32,720 --> 05:29:34,959
you know snake in the tree eleven
million years that's just all bullshit. D

3858
05:29:36,159 --> 05:29:40,080
that's made up stories that I'm supposed
to believe. And if they can give

3859
05:29:40,119 --> 05:29:42,599
me an account of the basic principles
they are using to make these assessments,

3860
05:29:42,639 --> 05:29:45,279
then I'll listen to them. But
nine and a half percent of them can't.

3861
05:29:45,400 --> 05:29:48,080
So why should I listen to people
who can't give an account for their

3862
05:29:48,119 --> 05:29:52,639
methodology? Isn't that, by the
way, kind of being a scientist.

3863
05:29:52,040 --> 05:29:56,840
I mean, I'm doing the science
of investigating your methodology whether it's solid or

3864
05:29:56,919 --> 05:30:00,599
not. But isn't it funny that
most of these people don't want to be

3865
05:30:00,720 --> 05:30:07,959
questioned on their philosophy of methodology?
Well, it's not that funny because they're

3866
05:30:07,000 --> 05:30:11,000
not philosophers, right, they're not
equipment. Oh so they have assumptions that

3867
05:30:11,040 --> 05:30:14,400
they're working on, and they think
that they're doing something and when I call

3868
05:30:14,439 --> 05:30:19,479
it doing a question, they'd rather
not answer those questions. Sure, I

3869
05:30:19,560 --> 05:30:23,119
mean they probably don't. They probably
don't have a lot of time or inclination

3870
05:30:23,319 --> 05:30:27,520
to study well. And they don't
even realize that they're doing metaphysics when they're

3871
05:30:27,560 --> 05:30:33,240
doing science. Well, they don't
realize that. They wouldn't. I don't

3872
05:30:33,240 --> 05:30:36,880
think they would accept that interpretation.
But I mean, I get what you're

3873
05:30:36,919 --> 05:30:41,639
saying. I mean you're saying you
didn't know what metaphysics was. So how

3874
05:30:41,639 --> 05:30:45,279
are you going to say that's wrong? I mean, give you a definition

3875
05:30:45,360 --> 05:30:48,360
of metaphysics real quick. Well,
but wait a minute, you've been saying

3876
05:30:52,000 --> 05:30:55,680
that they don't do it. I
mean, metaphysics is what the philosophy of

3877
05:30:55,759 --> 05:30:57,520
knowledge? Is that what you would
call it? No, So you just

3878
05:30:57,639 --> 05:31:03,360
basically showed you have no idea what
this is about. Epistemology of that's philosophy

3879
05:31:03,360 --> 05:31:07,439
of knowledge. Metaphysics is not.
The is not epistemology, two different disciplines.

3880
05:31:07,880 --> 05:31:11,040
So anyway, I'm not gonna be
I'm not trying to be rude to

3881
05:31:11,040 --> 05:31:14,759
you. I appreciate your questions.
We're just gonna we're gonna move on.

3882
05:31:15,840 --> 05:31:18,639
I've covered that many many times for
many many years. You can go buy

3883
05:31:18,720 --> 05:31:22,200
my philosophy course if you want my
free lectures, but they're all all all

3884
05:31:22,240 --> 05:31:26,560
that's free free as well. Anyway, I can't do anymore. This is

3885
05:31:26,680 --> 05:31:30,200
I'm super super tired. Thank you
guys so much for a wild night.

3886
05:31:30,400 --> 05:31:34,560
I couldn't stop. It was just
so wild right, But if you want

3887
05:31:34,599 --> 05:31:37,479
to support my channel, you can
go to the shop at JAS Analysis and

3888
05:31:37,560 --> 05:31:42,599
get my big fat red Book.
I have some of my philosophical critiques of

3889
05:31:42,639 --> 05:31:47,880
evolution in the red Book. You
can also get my Hollywood books there as

3890
05:31:47,959 --> 05:31:49,000
well, like esoteric Hollywood want