1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,039 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,840 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,920 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to My Deavor Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:54,399 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by author Kate Miles here to talk 11 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:59,799 to us about her award winning, multiple award winning book Trailed, One Woman's 12 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:03,439 Quest to Solve the Shenandoah Murders. Kate, thank you for joining us again. 13 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:06,879 I can't believe you want to have me back, but I'm so grateful 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,640 now that you're going into paperback which is a really big deal. After the 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,959 success of the hardcover book, this is a great time to have a follow 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,560 up conversation and find out all the good things that have been generated by your 17 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:25,840 writing and publication of Traut. So start by bragging in a little bit. 18 00:01:25,879 --> 00:01:29,079 Tell us about all the awards you've won, because you've won a lot and 19 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,959 it's really impressive. So do the brag thing. And it doesn't even have 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,359 to be humble bragg. I've just been so grateful for the reception of this 21 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,560 book, and I'm particularly grateful by how many people have been impacted on either 22 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,760 a primary or secondary basis by this particular crime who have reached out. So 23 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,719 for me, that's definitely more important than any possible award. But the book 24 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,599 has done quite well, and we're really excited at the New York Times named 25 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,959 one of the best true crime books of the year. That was great. 26 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:06,159 Audio book, which is really ably and expertly narrated by Gabra Zuckman, won 27 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,319 several awards. We just won the main Literary Award for twenty twenty three. 28 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,800 A book was a finalist for the Edgar Award. We just now learned that 29 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,240 the book has just been named a finalist for the Virginia Book Award Reader's Choice. 30 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:27,000 So quick overview, really exciting all around. That is so fantastic. 31 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:31,800 Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Congratulations on all of that. It's just 32 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:38,319 really great to know that this story resonates with people. You all know that 33 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:40,879 when you're in the trenches and thinking so much about a particular crime or a 34 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,240 particular issue, it gets all consuming for you. But sometimes it's hard to 35 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,000 know whether or not it's going to be all consuming for people who read and 36 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,360 listen to true crime as well. But reading the reviews, Kate, people 37 00:02:53,479 --> 00:03:00,800 really talk about how much they were drawn into Julian Lawley's story by reading Trailed, 38 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,960 and how compelling they thought it was. And yes, there's a very 39 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,199 sad component to this unsolved murder of these two beautiful young women, but it's 40 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,000 a story that just pulled you in. Well, And thank you for saying 41 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:19,120 that. The most important thing for me all along has really been to foreground 42 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,960 the stories of Lally and Julie, primarily obviously as living, breathing humans who 43 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:30,759 were really just exemplary leaders in their fields and also in love, and telling 44 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,080 that love story was really important to me and then of course honoring them as 45 00:03:35,159 --> 00:03:39,360 victims as well as living people as well, and making sure people understand just 46 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:43,759 what was taken away not only from friends and family, but I think also 47 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,800 the larger public when we lost these two individuals. I do want to make 48 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:53,759 sure that we talk a little bit more about your recent Library of Virginia speech 49 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,199 that you did. But I really like the fact that you started out with 50 00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:02,360 pictures of Lally and Julian. You grounded everything in and your presentation that way, 51 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,479 with the fact that we are concerned primarily about these two women, and 52 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,919 I like that. I appreciated it, and I could tell the audience did 53 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,759 too. With the book going into paperback, what changes if any, were 54 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,920 made to the book between the version that we have several copies on our bookshelves 55 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:25,600 and the new version that is out in paperback. Now, what got changed 56 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,279 if anything? In general, paperbacks are not changed. When we find a 57 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:33,600 few typographical errors or things like that, those sorts of things might get changed. 58 00:04:33,639 --> 00:04:39,839 But really the book reads pretty much exactly as it was written. Bill 59 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,680 and I were looking enough to get advanced reader copies. But the one thing 60 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,160 I know the paperback has in it that our arcs did not is. There 61 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,879 are a lot of wonderful photographs and maps in there. Can you tell us 62 00:04:48,879 --> 00:04:53,000 a little bit about, like how did you come into possession of those and 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,600 why was it so important to include those in the book? Sure? I 64 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:01,759 have worked with a really wonderful cartographer on all of my books. Her name's 65 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,079 Margot Carpenter, and her company is called Hartdale Maps, and she does a 66 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:12,319 really brilliant job of interpreting not just data but also stories in order to tell 67 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,399 something. And she and I work together to create a series of maps for 68 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:19,000 the book, and she did a really great job to quietly evoking the style 69 00:05:19,079 --> 00:05:23,680 of the National Park Service maps and guideboards and things like that. But it 70 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:28,279 was really important for me for readers to first of all understand in a general 71 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:32,439 way place and starting on a kind of macro level, with Shenandoah Park as 72 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,199 a whole, it's a really peculiar National park in some ways, in the 73 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:42,519 way, especially the fact that it's this long kind of winding park with one 74 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,240 major road through it and then basically tumbles down both sides of a mountain, 75 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:50,680 and so the idea of backcountry means something very different in that park than it 76 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:55,639 doesn't say Zion or Bryce or something like that. And so I wanted readers 77 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:02,000 to understand both that and the proximity to population centers, to parking lots, 78 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,639 to major roads and things like that, which I think is ultimately relevant when 79 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,600 we think about who might have done this and how and why. I also 80 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,720 really wanted folks to get a sense of the murder scene and how it relates 81 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,600 to the area around Skyland Lodge. That was also really important to me. 82 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:23,480 And then equally, if not more importantly, was making sure that we could 83 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:30,160 put the context of these two murders within a larger context of a group of 84 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:33,439 women, mostly young women, most of whom had some real I think physical 85 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,519 similarities to Lolly and Julie, who were killed over the course of a year 86 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,759 and a half in a fairly small circumference and what is largely rural Virginia. 87 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,360 And I think when you see that on paper, the idea that this was 88 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:53,240 an isolated incident becomes harder to accept. How do you go about getting permission 89 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:57,759 to use photographs? Kate? I know that you've got a lot of amazing 90 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:00,279 photographs, many of which were never published before. For how do you go 91 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:06,560 about getting permissions? That's a great question. Some of the photographs were published 92 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,040 by the FBI. They were given to the FBI by the families, and 93 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:16,319 so the FBI used them in press releases and posters and things like that. 94 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,720 So they have permission to grant the media permission, and some of the photographs 95 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:26,720 came from there, But Lolly and Julie's friends and family were the ones who 96 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,800 supplied and some of my very favorite photos of them. And obviously Lolly and 97 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:33,680 Julie can't consent to the photos and would be ideal if they could, but 98 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:39,000 the friends giving them to me offered their consent. And I think that, 99 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:42,480 you know what I've really love about them is I think it really just gets 100 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,879 at their personalities and their love of life and their humanity. And again, 101 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,720 I think it's just really important that people know that and really understand who these 102 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:57,160 people were. Some of the photographs were actually taken by the two women themselves. 103 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,399 How did you end up with those photogra graphs? They're from one of 104 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:07,199 their cameras? Correct, So Lolli was a very avid photographer and she had 105 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,959 brought her camera on the trip, So that became really important, I think 106 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,560 for the investigation. Initially because although the time stamp was way off on her 107 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:22,120 camera. I would say something like January first, nineteen hundred or something like. 108 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,120 We can't know the exact days, but we can know the chronology of 109 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,759 some of the places where they were in the park. That, coupled with 110 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,679 their journals, coupled with their back country permits, allows us to recreate their 111 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,039 time in the park in really good detail. There was also a young couple 112 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,759 at the time who were vacationing in the park, and they had run into 113 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,679 Lollie and Julie and just struck up a conversation and they all took photos of 114 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,480 each other. That became relevant as well too in terms of understanding where Lollie 115 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:54,960 and Julie were and making identifications and things. And the woman who had been 116 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,919 the wife of that couple they're now divorced, she had sent those photos to 117 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,960 me as well too. So it's nice, I think, to be able 118 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,679 to do this triangulation so that we can say, for relative certain we know 119 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:11,039 they were at X place or why place, and at least be able to 120 00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:15,679 approximate when you brought up the FBI already, So I guess let's go ahead 121 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,519 and dive into talking about their response, and really not just the FBI, 122 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,519 though, Let's talk about the response from law enforcement National Park Service as well. 123 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:31,240 What has their response been in relation to the book. It has been 124 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,080 hugely varied. Recently, an attorney for the Department of Justice recently reached out 125 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,840 to me and told me he had read the book, and he asked me 126 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:43,480 if I would be willing to come talk to the DOJ to ensure that this 127 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,240 kind of investigation in these kind of foibles don't happen again. That to me, 128 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,440 was a huge endorsement of the research in the book, I think, 129 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,399 especially where the ideas of confirmation bias come in and some of the interview and 130 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,200 interrogation techniques that I outline, which I think are morally questionable at best, 131 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,000 So that was really great. I've heard secondhand from the family of some of 132 00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:13,679 the other surviving victims in Virginia that those law enforcement officials have been reading the 133 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,639 book and using the book to reexamine some of those cases. They haven't reached 134 00:10:18,639 --> 00:10:20,240 out to me, which I find peculiar, but at least they're reading it, 135 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:26,039 so that's something. And then I also have heard secondhand that the publication 136 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,000 of the book prompted the FBI to re examine the case and to re examine 137 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:35,519 some of the Park Service law enforcement rangers who were involved in the case. 138 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:41,000 And I've heard again secondhand that they even went so far as to try to 139 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,159 obtain some DNA swabs from some of the rangers. They are understandably not pleased. 140 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,759 The reaction from at least one of them in particular has been very loud, 141 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:00,240 I think, and so that's obviously not my preferred reaction. But I 142 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,960 think it's good that this information is hitting a nerve, and I think maybe 143 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:07,679 the more nerves it hits, the more likely it will be that the story 144 00:11:07,759 --> 00:11:13,159 is propelled forward, and that the investigation is propelled forward. As the brother 145 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:20,840 of a murder victim whose sister's case is sometimes linked with the murder of Lali 146 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,360 and Julie, I will just say this should have been done years ago, 147 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:31,039 and the fact that the FBI and the National Park Service and other law enforcement 148 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:39,799 agencies are circling back around and collecting DNA samples from investigators and first responders now 149 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:48,879 more than twenty six years after their murders in the Shenandoah is shocking. This 150 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:54,279 should have been done decades ago, and it shouldn't take all of the work 151 00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:01,200 and the research that you've done to produce Trailed to get the FBI and the 152 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,159 National Park Service to do something that they should have done twenty something years ago. 153 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,200 And I can't imagine how frustrating it is to be the family member of 154 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,320 a victim and know that so much hasn't been done. It's for me as 155 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,240 a journalist, it's frustrating, and I don't have that personal connection. And 156 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,960 that's one of the things that I like to try to highlight when I'm talking 157 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,840 about this book, is the number of cold cases out in the country, 158 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,200 the number of people like you who deserve answers and deserve a thorough investigation, 159 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,799 and I've never had it. The number of rape kits and DNA samples that 160 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:39,200 we've never tested, the number of DNA that we've never loaded to kodis. 161 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,600 This is a national endemic problem, and it's a crisis. I think it's 162 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:48,120 such crisis of justice that we really need to resolve. I'm not hinting by 163 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:52,440 the way that any of these people are directly involved, or that someone in 164 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:56,000 law enforcement is a murderer. I'm not saying that. But what I am 165 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,960 saying is you would think, I understand that this stuff didn't happen. Back 166 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,600 in nineteen eighty six, when my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Doowski were 167 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,240 murdered, DNA hadn't come out of the lab. But by the time we 168 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:16,799 get to nineteen ninety six, when Lolly and Julie are murdered, DNA has 169 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:22,840 made its way out of the lab, thankfully, and just for elimination purposes. 170 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:28,240 You would think that everyone involved in responding to these murders and investigating these 171 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,279 murders would have submitted their DNA. Heck, I submitted my DNA at the 172 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:39,559 FBI's request about five or six years ago, again because my DNA could have 173 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,720 been in my sister's car, and why is it, I have no problem 174 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:50,039 whatsoever. They came to my office. They also met with my brother Richard 175 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:52,279 in Washington, DC, ME and Los Angeles, where I was living at 176 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:54,679 the time, and my younger brother in New York, and we said, 177 00:13:54,679 --> 00:14:00,360 sure, come on down, and I sat with the FBI agents because I 178 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,279 wanted to have a conversation with them, to ask them if they knew why 179 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,879 they were collecting the DNA, which interestingly they did not, But they were 180 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,039 very curious people, and I explained a short version of why they were there, 181 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,639 and I have no problem with that. And I don't think anyone in 182 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:22,840 law enforcement or any legitimate person would have any difficulty whatsoever turning over their DNA 183 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:26,559 so that they can be eliminated and that would allow their brothers and sisters in 184 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:33,480 law enforcement to focus on potential suspects. I will challenge people listening to this 185 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:39,399 podcast today to my friends in law enforcement. I can't believe any of you 186 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,480 are pushing back on giving your DNA. It should come with the territory, 187 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,960 so cough it up. We all did it, except for a handful of 188 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,799 people that somehow are so righteous they can't stand the idea that their DNA would 189 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,200 be looked at. No one's calling them a murderer. They're saying, let's 190 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,320 narrow the focus to where it needs to be. Well, I know you've 191 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:07,480 had firsthand experience and tremendous frustrations as well getting evidence from the scene tested as 192 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,159 well. Right now, one of the things that I'm really fixated on is 193 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,159 a bottle of Gatorade and a Walmart bag that were at the scene of the 194 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,080 crime. They don't belong to Lolli and Julie, and Julie had a liquid 195 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,799 in her stomach which matches the gatorade. They didn't buy it. Spoiler alert. 196 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,840 We know that known serial killer Mark Avonet's regularly shopped at Walmart and also 197 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,960 preferred to and this is really just sadistic and terrible, but really preferred to 198 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:41,120 keep his victims well hydrated, and he would regularly give them energy drinks while 199 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,120 he was molesting them and abusing them and assaulting them. And so again, 200 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,120 there are fingerprints on that gatorade bottle. We know it doesn't belong to Lolly 201 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,120 and Julie. We know we have fingerprints from the scene. Why would we 202 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:58,279 not test that. There's an oily palm print on Julie's sleeping pad, Why 203 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,559 would we not test that? Why would we not test the hair that was 204 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,799 in Kathy Thomas's hand? I just it boggles the mind, it really does. 205 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:15,639 We're no stranger to getting tips with relation to our case. Have people 206 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,000 reached out to you with tips that they want you to follow up on or 207 00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:22,960 that they think law enforcement should follow up on? Oh my, so many 208 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:30,159 tips. And I would say all of them from very well meaning people. 209 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,600 And I would say if I can say it politely and decorously, I would 210 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,679 say they run the gamut of plausibility. But I think anybody who takes the 211 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:45,399 time to reach out, that's meaningful to me that somebody took the time to 212 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,080 find me to tell me that as well. And certainly I keep track of 213 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,240 all of them. Your listeners probably know that. Again, sometimes Shenandoah and 214 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,120 the first Colonial Parkway set of murders are linked. And so whenever I get 215 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:03,799 anything that seems like it might be at all relevant to the case of Kathy 216 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,160 and Becky, I like to afford that to Bill, and so he also 217 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,160 has had a long suffering experience with some of these and is always a really 218 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,440 good sport about receiving them as well too. But you never know. I 219 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:21,559 think, if anything, what we're learning from podcasts and streaming shows, list 220 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,559 serves and discussion boards is that citizen investigators move cases along all the time. 221 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,200 So I think it's beholding upon us to take all of them seriously. Yeah, 222 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,640 Over the years, both Kristin and I have fed a number of tips 223 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:38,119 into the FBI, and again, we can't necessarily evaluate what's a good tip 224 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,200 and what's not a good tip, And sometimes we talk about does this person 225 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:48,240 seem completely screwed down to the deck or not. But even then, just 226 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:51,920 because someone's a little out there, or maybe even a lot out there, 227 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,720 that doesn't mean they shouldn't be listened to, because they may actually have something 228 00:17:56,759 --> 00:17:59,720 to say. And our attitude is we're going to turn those over to law. 229 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,000 And because the FBI agents and Virginia State Police agents who were working our 230 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:07,640 case, they know a lot more about this case than we know. Something 231 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:14,039 might be said in a tip that would mean something to those investigators. Yeah, 232 00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:18,319 And I think anything that moves these cases along, and also I think 233 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,559 anything that might link these cases to other cases as well too, I think 234 00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:26,920 that's really important. I was really appalled that when I was talking to Sadie 235 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,519 show Walter, who's the surviving mother of Alicia show Walter Reynolds, who was 236 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:36,200 killed about six weeks before Lolly and Julie, she didn't know that gloves had 237 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,119 been found at the scene of where Alicia's carr had been pulled over. She 238 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,240 didn't know that cigarette butts had been found there as well. There's a very 239 00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:47,839 similar pair of gloves found at Lolly and Julie scene. There's very similar I 240 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:51,319 don't know the brand because they're just butts, but cigarette butts as well too. 241 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,519 What does it take then to cross test those like don't even can we 242 00:18:55,759 --> 00:19:00,079 exclude even the DNA from those and the DNA from Allie and Julie's anything. 243 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,440 I think that moves these cases along, not to some conclusion I want or 244 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:08,599 choose, but to any kind of resolution whatever that looks like. Seems really 245 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:14,799 important to me. Have you received any new information or tips about Avonets? 246 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:19,079 In particular? The most I think significant work that's happening on the Avonets front 247 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:25,400 is actually being spearheaded by Deirdre Enwright at the University of Virginia, and she 248 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:30,480 and her students have really been combing through a lot of the evidence that was 249 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:37,839 preserved from Avonitz's residence, and so she's been working very actively to link him 250 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,440 to other crimes as well too, And I've been trying to assist on that 251 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,640 in any way that I can. Again, I think that's super important as 252 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,880 well too. When he was in the high speed police chase that would eventually 253 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,400 lead to him taking his own life, he very famously said to his sister 254 00:19:55,559 --> 00:19:57,279 when she said, how many times have you done this, and he said 255 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,079 more times than I remember. And in the book I outline just a few 256 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,920 of the leads we have about ways in which he was predating on other women, 257 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,640 some of whom are still alive as well too, And so for me 258 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,519 it's very clear. I think that we don't know the breadth of Avonitz's crimes, 259 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:22,480 but I find it almost entirely unbelievable that he killed only three people, 260 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:26,240 And I think anything that we can do to further close cases that he might 261 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,880 have been involved in is really important as well, for the benefit of someone 262 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,400 who's buying the book today and hasn't read it yet. Can you recap Ivanetz's 263 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:38,720 history in terms of what we know who his specific victims are. I know 264 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:42,200 we have suspicions beyond the core group, but can you talk a little bit 265 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,359 about his criminal history as we understand it, Sure, and I'll try to 266 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,680 do it chronologically in terms of how we learned things. So, he abducted 267 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,480 a young woman named Kara Robinson, who was sixteen at the time, and 268 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:03,039 brought her back to his house, where he really brutally abused her in myriad 269 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,559 sexual ways. Incidentally, that's part of how we know about the gatorade, 270 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,759 is that he would try to keep Kara hydrated with the gatorade. He had 271 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:17,039 her handcuffed and shackled to his bed. When he had fallen asleep for the 272 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,839 night, she managed to extricate herself and get help. Her story alone is 273 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,680 utterly fascinating and worth telling in more time than we probably have here. But 274 00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:29,160 once she was able to alert the authorities, and because she had done such 275 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,039 a brilliant job of memorizing key details about of ants in his apartment, they 276 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:37,839 were able to very quickly figure out who he was. And so that's what 277 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,920 led to this high speed chase across multiple state lines, and it's what led 278 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,240 to him committing suicide in Florida when it was very clear that he was about 279 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:51,559 to be apprehended. Once he had been once he had killed himself, the 280 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,160 authorities then had access to his DNA, to his fingerprints and things like that, 281 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:03,400 and using that they were able to confirm that he had killed both Katie 282 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:07,759 and Kristen Lisk and Sophia Silva, two three young women who were killed in 283 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:12,160 the month right after Lolly and Julie in rural Virginia. And so we know 284 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:18,799 those three for a fact what we don't know is whether or not his DNA 285 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,240 was ever loaded to kotis, and so we don't know, and the FBI 286 00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:29,079 refuses to answer any of my Freedom of Information Act requests asking if his DNA 287 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,519 has been loaded. They told me it's not in the best interest of the 288 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:36,680 American public to know this. Of course, I don't understand how that's possible, 289 00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:40,599 but so we have those three. But we also have because we have 290 00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:45,559 his belongings. He had a chest that had dozens of women's underwear, ranging 291 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:52,279 from what we're probably fairly young teenagers to grown women scrunches. He had locks 292 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:56,880 of hair that he had removed, and he kept this incredibly disturbing kind of 293 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:03,319 log book of women he was actively pursuing and in some cases stalking, using 294 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,480 both online dating services phones things like that as well too. We've been able 295 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:12,559 to make contact with a few of them and confirmed that they're alive. We 296 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,680 haven't been able to make contact with all of them. We also know that 297 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,359 he had a cousin that shared his name who lived in Chicago, and that 298 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,000 he spent a lot of time there acting as the cousin. And one of 299 00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:29,880 the things that Deirdre and I are also starting to do is really teased through 300 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:36,480 these records of women he was pursuing in Chicago and Square that against women who 301 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:41,480 either went missing or were murdered or have called any kind of violent cases against 302 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:47,319 them. But the cousin for sure is not Vanitz. It's actually a separate 303 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:53,240 person. Correct. Wow, that's something I've never heard before. Well either, 304 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,079 Well, and his full name is Richard Mark Ivanits is that right? 305 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,920 Let see? And I'm interested too. Is he had a definite m and 306 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,200 he would bind the women in a particular way. He would kind of trade 307 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,599 them, usually was foreign objects, and then there was a way that he 308 00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:15,559 would tend to leave them after they were killed. There's a very similar case 309 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:22,160 here in Maine involving a young woman named Sarah Cherry that one hundred percent fits 310 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,680 this mo down to the stolen car, which was another thing that Evanets used 311 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,960 to do. And we know for an absolute fact that he happened to be 312 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:37,000 stationed at the naval base and the iron works, a shipyard here in Maine, 313 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,960 literally ten miles away from where this crime happened, right when it happened. 314 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,079 There's a huge number of people here in the state of Maine who believed 315 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:51,599 that he actually committed that as well too, And there's currently an innocence movement. 316 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,240 A man was convicted of the crime and is serving life in prison, 317 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:59,680 and most people here have always assumed his innocence, and there's a growing movement 318 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,440 right now to get some of the DNA that was taken from this particular crime 319 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,359 scene and to see if you can get it tested against of honors. Has 320 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,599 there been any luck in obtaining his naval service records? I do find it 321 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,279 interesting that he was in the Navy, as was Kathy, and we are 322 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,359 a naval area right here, and we have every type of military base surround 323 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,720 here, we are primarily Navy. Any luck in getting those records. I 324 00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:26,400 don't have his full records, but I do know that he spent most of 325 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,799 his time here on the East coast on the Kolsch, which was the ship 326 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:37,400 that was used very oddly to collect the remains after the Challenger disaster, the 327 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,079 Challenger explosion, the Space Shuttle, And so that's probably if listeners know that 328 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:47,640 name, that's how and so with some accuracy we can say where the Kolsch 329 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240 was and so where he was as well too. But I don't personally have 330 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:52,880 his naval records. I would love to get them, however, because I 331 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:59,640 think that again, knowing where he was, knowing his propensity for these types 332 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,000 of times, I don't think we can say with any certainty whatever that it 333 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:07,960 was only three victims. Do we know how to spell Kolsch, the USS 334 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,400 Kolesh the ship itself. You're gonna have to check me on it, but 335 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,680 I'm going to try to remember that it's kol Sh. I'm not exactly sure 336 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,079 about that C, but that'll get folks close enough for sure. We'll look 337 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,559 that up. Boy, it would be interesting if any of our listeners know 338 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,160 anyone that ever served aboard the US Kolch, we'd love to talk to you. 339 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,720 And I know that many Navy ships, including the ly Spear that the 340 00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:41,319 ship that my sister served aboard, there are groups that are kind of alumni 341 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,960 groups of service personnel who had served on ships. If anyone knows anyone that 342 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,440 has ever served aboard the Kolsch, we'd love to talk with you. The 343 00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:56,880 idea of getting Richard markovan It's's service records is a really interesting one. And 344 00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:59,920 one other quick thing in talking to my dad, who is also a NAP 345 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,880 officer, he had mentioned to me that when ships are in dry dock, 346 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,759 as Avonness's ship would have been up at the Bath Iron Works in Beautiful Maine, 347 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,319 there's a lot of downtime for the personnel that are aboard those ships. 348 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,480 They're still assigned to the ship, but they're not out at sea. It's 349 00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:23,440 more of a nine to five kind of job when you're in dry dock because 350 00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:30,799 you're literally not going anywhere, and so there's much more downtime for the men 351 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:34,680 and women that serverboard those ships. Because during those months or even be a 352 00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:38,279 year or more, while the ships are being refitted or repaired, they end 353 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,920 up, as my dad put it, they have a lot more time off 354 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,440 and they have a lot more time to get into trouble. You're listening to 355 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:51,200 mind over Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors. 356 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,559 We're back here at Mind over Murder. And we know that evanits is one 357 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:07,680 of his favorite pastimes was driving around country roads. We know that was a 358 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:14,559 real hobby of his. We know that he would regularly break about stealing cars 359 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:17,599 and how easy it was to hot wire cars. And again we know his 360 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,119 m O. And so when you take a look at this particular case. 361 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,599 You consider the man Dennis de Shane, who's currently serving life in prison, 362 00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:30,680 zero criminal history, zero criminal record whatsoever, zero evidence of violence that anyone 363 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,839 could find, And then you consider a mark of Vonets and you look at 364 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:38,759 this particular case again, logically speaking, he makes an infinitely better suspect. 365 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:45,200 Wow. Absolutely, I want to switch gears for one second away from Evans 366 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:49,039 and let's talk a little bit. You're a dedicated runner, You're a dedicated 367 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:55,880 outdoors woman. How do you feel about the outdoors, in your safety in 368 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200 it? Right about now, it's been about a year since this came out. 369 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240 Are you with your relationship with the outdoors? I still have not been 370 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:10,640 able to solo camp in a tent. I think having seen the crime seeing 371 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:12,799 photos, and I know you two have had experience with this as well. 372 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,839 Having seen the crime, seeing photos and having them just really indelibly seared in 373 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,480 my brain, it is very difficult for me to be an a tent and 374 00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:29,640 not feel panicked. My brain just draws this immediate connection. And so while 375 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,240 I know that statistically speaking, backpacking and camping somewhere like Maine, I'm extremely 376 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:40,160 safe, it's not a psychologically pleasant experience for me. So I haven't done 377 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,880 that, but I do spend a lot of time in the wilderness. I'm 378 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,359 an avid trail runner, I'm a hiker, and I'd like to joke right 379 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,640 now that at this point I'm so angry about all of this that God help 380 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:56,319 the serial killer or serial rapist who attempts to approach me in the wilderness, 381 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,880 because that person is probably going to be going to the police claiming that they 382 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:03,680 are being harassed and threatened because I'm so And I do not say that as 383 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,119 a challenge, but I do say that I am just in a place right 384 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:10,920 now where when you think about the politics of the country, when you think 385 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,519 about the ongoing misogyny in the country. And I say this as a woman, 386 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,759 I say this as somebody who identifies as queer. I say this as 387 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:25,240 a sexual assault survivor. I am so angry about what it is to be 388 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,759 a woman in our culture right now, and so I think that kind of 389 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:33,279 fuels me a little bit in the wilderness. But it's also it's a place 390 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:37,079 of real beauty and refuge. And I really believe in the value of forest 391 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,960 bathing and immersing yourself in the wilderness as well too. And I think everyone 392 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,559 should get to have access to that. Let me ask you a question that 393 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,960 I don't think I've ever asked you before. If you are going to be 394 00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:55,680 through hiking the Appalachian Trail, and I know the usual route is to start 395 00:30:55,759 --> 00:31:00,519 in May in Georgia and then head north ending in May, sometimes taking an 396 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,519 entire summer to do that, which sounds like a wonderful experience. And I 397 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,960 know people that have done it. If you were to do that today, 398 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,720 would you carry a weapon? That's a good question. Does bear spray count 399 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:18,480 as a weapon? I would say so in point of view of the person 400 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,279 or bear at the receiving end. Yeah, I think there's I have very 401 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:27,440 mixed thoughts on firearms in this country. As I detail in the book. 402 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,880 I did go through multiple firearms courses and training, and I feel like that 403 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,480 was really the right decision for me. I am not entirely comfortable with gun 404 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:42,480 ownership as it's defined in this country right now, bear spray seems like a 405 00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:47,519 really reasonable tool. The other thing that I always thought about with guns, 406 00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:49,279 too is I always joke like, what are the logistics there? If my 407 00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:52,440 gun is in my backpack and I'm being apprehended, Do I just say, 408 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,759 hang on just one second, I just need to take this pack off. 409 00:31:55,759 --> 00:32:00,559 And whereas a tiny little canister of bear spray angling on your backpack, that 410 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:06,400 seems like a reasonable thing to have for a variety of reason, including gravid 411 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:09,880 animals, so that that seems like a fair compromise to me. Are there 412 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,960 additional steps the National Park Service could take in making people safe in the back 413 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,319 country? Do you think, oh, how much time do we have? 414 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:28,759 Critically, yes, One of the things that first of all, that I 415 00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:32,960 outline in the book is that there is currently no codified mechanism for reporting violent 416 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,240 crimes. So as citizens of this country and as park goers, we don't 417 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:43,400 know how many crimes are occurring. We know that the GAO, the Government 418 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,640 Accountability Office, has done several studies and taken the Park Service in the Department 419 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,559 of the Interior to task for their lack of reporting. It's up to whoever 420 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,079 is the head ranger and whoever is the superintendent of a park, whether or 421 00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:00,079 not these crimes ever get reported, and frank, to what degree they ever 422 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:05,480 get investigated. So first and foremost, we can start accurately accounting for that, 423 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,200 and once we actually know how pervasive the problem is, and I think 424 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:14,200 we can take more steps. The Park Service is woefully underfunded. There's a 425 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,480 lot of attrition happening with rangers. Law enforcement rangers are not always adequately trained, 426 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:24,039 they don't have adequate weapons or communication devices. In some cases, there's 427 00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:30,119 only one law enforcement ranger for an entire part that is going to span in 428 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:36,200 some cases hundreds of square miles. So I think policing and making that presence 429 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,240 known in a way that's obviously not intrusive and kind of stormtroopery for visitors, 430 00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:45,799 but making sure that folks know that you don't get a pass. There is 431 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:50,839 something else that's really important as well. The Park Service has been criticized though 432 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,559 for a culture of cover up over the years. They've been likened to the 433 00:33:54,599 --> 00:34:00,000 Catholic Church, and I was an altar boy many years ago in raised Catholic. 434 00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:05,039 The Park Service has been criticized in writing, in magazine articles, in 435 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:13,039 books by people inside the organization and outside that they cover up criminality among National 436 00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:21,039 Park Service employees, as well as downplay statistics involving crime, vandalism, potential 437 00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:24,519 violence within the National Park Service. How do you feel about that? I 438 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:28,960 think it's accurate. Well, I know you're familiar with this work, and 439 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,960 I don't know if your listeners are at Paul Burkowitz has written two books really 440 00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:37,599 exploring this in depth, and I highly recommend them if this is an interesting 441 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,920 subject. His book on the Indian Trader, which is a story of what 442 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,360 happened in the Grand Canyon, I think is particularly relevant and particularly telling. 443 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:51,119 He's a former law enforcement ranger himself, and he talks about this notion that's 444 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:57,679 called noble cause corruption, where sometimes rangers or any law enforcement officer will do 445 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,880 the wrong thing legally or morally because they believe it's the right thing to, 446 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,199 for instance, protect a fellow ranger or preserve the sense of calm and peacefulness 447 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,960 within a park. He outlines in real detail some of how this happens, 448 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:19,679 and this transfer system, which is very similar to this idea of the Catholic 449 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,239 Church, especially what we saw in Boston during the sexual abuse cover ups that 450 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,440 were happening, is that harrishes would transfer a priest rather than hold the priest 451 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,519 accountable. And we've seen this in the Park Service as well, that rangers 452 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:37,119 who have either been found negligent or have had disciplinary action taken against them, 453 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,239 rather than having that get filed or sent up the personnel chain. They in 454 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,360 fact have been transferred to other parks as well. And what I think is 455 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,239 really most disturbing about that is we don't really have a sense of how often 456 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,480 that happens, but we know that it's enough that it's a significant problem. 457 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,159 All Right, I want to make our listeners jealous for a second and tell 458 00:35:55,199 --> 00:36:00,159 them about the fact that I did get to meet you in person. Was 459 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:04,639 it only a week ago? Wow? Was it two weeks ago? Ten 460 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,960 days ago? Okay? All right, Yeah, whatever it was, it 461 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,159 was a wonderful experience to get to hang out with you. So tell us 462 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:15,960 a little bit about your speaking engagement at the Library of Virginia and what all 463 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,519 that entailed. Yeah. I was really delighted to be asked by them to 464 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:27,119 come speak, especially because Richmond is obviously so close to where these crimes occurred, 465 00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:30,079 and I know how deeply personal it is for so many of the people 466 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:35,320 there. So in addition to get to have some time with the great Christian 467 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,519 Dilly, I was really thrilled to be able to talk to the audience as 468 00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:45,360 well too, And I was really profoundly moved by the number of people who 469 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,840 waited online after to chat and to tell me their stories. And it was 470 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,320 people who used to go to the park and don't go to the park anymore. 471 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,360 It was a woman whose husband had been an initial suspect and the family 472 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,400 had really been and for an apart by that, oh, it was it 473 00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:07,400 was a lot of people who had a very personal connection to these stories. 474 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:13,639 And for me, as a journalist, it's incredibly poignant to hear those stories 475 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,960 and to remind myself not only how deeply personal it is for the immediate friends 476 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,360 and family of victims, but the way in which these kinds of acts of 477 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,400 violence really do start to serve as hate crimes in the sense that they take 478 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:35,400 entire demographics and radically change their relationship to play. And for so many of 479 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,840 the people that I met at this library event, this event radically altered and 480 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,719 negatively altered their relationship not only with Shenandoah, but with the wilderness at large. 481 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,079 In the book Trailed, you talk about this quite a bit, how 482 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:54,119 meaningful the outdoors have been for you as a woman and as an outdoors woman, 483 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,920 and for so many other people that you've befriended. Yet here we are 484 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:02,480 again. You're speaking about the book. The book's been out for a year, 485 00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:07,239 it's had a tremendous impact, but you're hearing from people who are talking 486 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,599 about the ripple effect of this nineteen ninety six double homicide. Yeah, and 487 00:38:13,639 --> 00:38:15,719 when I was working on the book, I interviewed Claudia Breunner. She and 488 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,519 her partner, Rebecca White, were both shot just off the Appalachian Trail. 489 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,480 Rebecca was killed, Claudia had multiple bullets in her and somehow managed to hike 490 00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:30,039 miles out and get help. And she wrote about that very poignantly in a 491 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:34,360 book called Eight Bullets, and she talked not only about what it was to 492 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,599 be the victim of what was a very intentional hate crime, but then also 493 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:44,280 what it was to be investigated by law enforcement officers who had next to no 494 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,159 experience dealing with someone who had been in the same sex relationship and just how 495 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,920 re traumatizing that plus the court was, And we had talked about this notion 496 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,280 of hate crime and what is I hate crime? Because Lollie and Julie's legal 497 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,440 case very famously became the first of ficial federal hate crime case in the United 498 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,519 States. So there's a lot of really significant historical resonance there. People are 499 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:10,440 very divided about whether or not this was i hate crime in terms of the 500 00:39:10,519 --> 00:39:15,519 perpetrator's motivations, whether the perpetrator was aware of Lolly and Julie's sexuality. But 501 00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:19,960 what Claudia Brenner said to me, and I've always just really taken this to 502 00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:25,599 heart, as she said, for me and for my entire community of lesbian 503 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:31,119 women, we no longer feel safe in the wilderness, and in that regard 504 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,440 for every woman, for every lgbt person who has severed their relationship with the 505 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,519 wilderness because of this violence. This is absolutely a hate crime, and that's 506 00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:44,679 a really important distinction to me. We can talk about hate crimes in terms 507 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,880 of the perpetrator and the motivation, but I think understanding the deep impact of 508 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,320 a crime is just as useful in terms of identifying it as a potential hate 509 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:59,639 crime. There's a flip flop there, I think that has happened where people 510 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:07,519 that were that identify with the LGBTQ community would probably say that they feel safer 511 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,880 in America's big cities than they would somewhere out in a beautiful spot in the 512 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,920 middle of the woods or mountains. I think people think, oh, you're 513 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,480 much more at risk if you're in a big city. And yet for I 514 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:24,239 think a lot of members of this community, they feel safer they are in 515 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:30,119 the big town than they ever would in the woods, probably because of the 516 00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:36,400 number of incidents like this of harassment, assault. You can just keep escalating 517 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:44,039 rape, murder. Even though hate crime is not an expression used commonly till 518 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:50,519 about nineteen ninety six, the phenomenon and this sad series of incidents has been 519 00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:52,760 going on for decades. Yeah, And we can fold in all sorts of 520 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,280 what we call socially subordinate groups in that as well too, the number of 521 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,760 black people and bipoc people who don't feel safe in the wilderness, not only 522 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:07,119 because of current events, but also this kind of epigenetic generational memory of centuries 523 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:10,880 of really terrible things that have happened to people of color in the wilderness as 524 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,159 well too. And so one of the things I definitely wanted to try to 525 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,440 highlight in the book is this question of who gets to feel safe in our 526 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,079 parks and our forests and our deserts and our wilderness places. Who gets to 527 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:27,480 feel safe and why? And I think as a country and as a culture, 528 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,119 we still have so much work to do on that front. It's really 529 00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:35,559 a position of privilege to go for a hike in the woods and feel safe 530 00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:37,440 and not be looking over your shoulder, and I think we haven't really talked 531 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:44,440 about that as a country. Kate. I'm scanning right now your archives on 532 00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:49,880 Outside magazine, and you've done a lot of work, wonderful work for Outside 533 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,079 before there was Trailed. It looks like there was a lot of different articles 534 00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:59,880 about murder and violence on the at Can you highlight for our listeners some of 535 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:02,599 the additional reporting that you've done for Outside and where they can find it. 536 00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:09,119 Sure. One of the most heartbreaking cases actually occurred while I was writing one 537 00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:14,920 of the penultimate drafts of Trailed, and that was the murder of Ron Sanchez, 538 00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:19,599 who had been hiking. He was a veteran of the Middle Eastern conflict 539 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,480 and he had come back and had was experiencing PTSD and really found a sense 540 00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:29,199 of renewal in hiking, which I think so many of us have. He 541 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,880 was attempting a through hike on the trail when a young man who had some 542 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:39,280 profound mental illness and long history of violence assaulted not only Ron Sanchez, but 543 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,400 three other hikers who happened to be camping for the night as well, and 544 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:49,400 Ron really I think valiantly tried to save the other three hikers and lost his 545 00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:52,519 life as a result. So that was a case that really resonated with me 546 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:58,199 and just made it really real how this continues to be a problem on the 547 00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:01,159 trail. And there are others as well too, Thankfully not a lot, 548 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:06,039 and I think that's a really important point to make. But addressing these and 549 00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:07,880 thinking about these, I think is really important. And luckily, when I 550 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:14,519 served as trail correspondent for Outside magazine, I rod leeway in terms of what 551 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,639 I was covering, so I could tell those stories, which are again really 552 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:22,880 upsetting. I told stories about the history of segregation Shenandoah, but then there 553 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,239 were also fun stories too, like folks who were setting fastest known time attempts 554 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,760 on the trails and some of the silliness of the Appalachian trail culture as well 555 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,800 too. It was really a very sort of immersive experience for me to do 556 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,880 that work, and I really loved it. Yeah, just from a total 557 00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:42,960 fan girl perspective. Here did you I saw you wrote two pieces about Scott 558 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,039 Jarek. Did you get to meet him. I did. Oh my god, 559 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:52,719 that's so cool. Yeah, And he and Carl Meltzer both had and 560 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,280 I don't think they'll mind me saying that they both had a very show up 561 00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:00,440 and blow up fastest known time attempt. I really love the little guys who 562 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:07,599 aren't sponsored and don't have all of the kind of bells and whistles and fandom 563 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,199 following them, who have gone on to do it very quietly in the old 564 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:15,719 fashioned way. I'm a traditionalist where that's concerned. I'm always cheering for those 565 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,599 guys. And because I know you don't know Bell, Scott Jarek is a 566 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,280 He's an ultra runner and he made an FKT fastest fastest known time attempt to 567 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:30,360 run the eight It's insane. He wrote an amazing book about it, and 568 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,440 I'm in love with his book. It's amazing. So I'm very jealous. 569 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,239 You got to meet Scott Jarek. Okay, that's so cool. Help well, 570 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,280 if I can recommend Jen far Davis, who held the record for quite 571 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,960 some time regardless of gender. She has a book that came out a couple 572 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,159 of years ago called The Pursuit of Endurance, where she tells not only her 573 00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:53,000 own story. But she talks to a lot of these fastest known time record 574 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:58,400 holders in these very long distance hikers and runners to look at, what is 575 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,960 it that motivates us to do this? Why are we so compelled by it? 576 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,599 And I just think it's a wonderful book, all right, I wrote 577 00:45:04,599 --> 00:45:07,039 it down. Yeah, and you do ultra You do ultras as well. 578 00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:12,800 You were recovering from one still when we talked. For anybody who doesn't know, 579 00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:15,960 can you tell what an ultra marathon is and why do you do them? 580 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,239 Yeah? The first part of that is easier to answer than the second. 581 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,000 So an ultra technically is any race that's longer than twenty six point two 582 00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:29,239 miles. In trail running, one of the most common distances is fifty kilometers, 583 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,440 and then fifty miles, one hundred kilometers and one hundred miles. And 584 00:45:32,679 --> 00:45:37,519 I have a dear friend and running partner who talks about how you do this, 585 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:40,360 and she calls it burrito pace. And so basically, if you can't 586 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,079 eat a bean and cheese burrito at the pace that you're running, you're doing 587 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:49,599 it too fast. So that's a huge part of why that's my christ And 588 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:52,719 I know you run five ks I would rather run fifty miles in a five 589 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,480 K. I feel like five k's are the most painful thing ever, where 590 00:45:55,519 --> 00:46:00,159 it's looking along in the woods for a day feels a lot more manageable to 591 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,880 me too, So I think it's people like you who are doing the like 592 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,360 crazy hardcore work. Oh thank you, appreciate it. All I can say 593 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:14,960 is color me intimidated with these two amazing work. Can I just stay home 594 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:23,400 and man the phones and maybe have a burrito and root you on. We're 595 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,360 so thrilled that you were able to spend some time talking with this today. 596 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,000 If people want to find your book, and I don't see any reason why 597 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,480 they wouldn't, where can they go to find your book? Where is it 598 00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:37,679 available? I always love it when people patronize their local independent bookstores, so 599 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,440 that's always my very favorite go to. If they don't have it, they 600 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,599 can certainly order it. Obviously Amazon is another option as well too, And 601 00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:52,719 we're just really glad for anybody who takes the time and our natural question what's 602 00:46:52,880 --> 00:47:00,519 next for Catherine Kate Miles. We finally put together the full package for the 603 00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:07,320 streaming series version of the book. We've just signed on a really wonderful director. 604 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,360 I don't know if I'm actually allowed to say her name yet, but 605 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,760 she's exactly perfect for this. And so now right now as we speak, 606 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,440 we're starting to take this out to market, and that's a really exciting prospect 607 00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:24,719 for me, largely because I think it's an entirely different population to reach by 608 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,480 way of this story. And I also feel like it's a really great opportunity 609 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:34,239 to continue the investigation and to talk in more detail about everything that's happened since 610 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,360 the book was published. They called me a week or two ago and said, 611 00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:42,239 would I be willing to appear on camera and talk about you in the 612 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,599 book? And I said I'd think about it. I know better than that, 613 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,280 and I'm already grateful the number of favors I need to repaid to Bill 614 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,679 Thomas our a list that I feel I'm never going to be able to get 615 00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,920 through. And I was thrilled actually that after this Mutual Admiration Society. I 616 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,639 was thrilled that you and Kristen were actually able to be in the same room. 617 00:48:05,679 --> 00:48:10,440 And she just came home buzzed from your incredible talk at the Library of 618 00:48:10,519 --> 00:48:16,079 Virginia again talk about mutual admiration societies. I honestly, I think the work 619 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:20,719 that you do is so great, and to finally get to sit and chat 620 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,519 with you was just such a gift for me too, and was absolutely worth 621 00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:27,840 the trip. So thank you. Good call on the two of you having 622 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,920 an early dinner beforehand, because it sounded like everybody wanted to talk to you. 623 00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:36,480 Kay. After your talk and afterwards, I stumbled back to my hotel 624 00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:38,599 room and I think I was in bed five minutes later, so I wouldn't 625 00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:44,039 have been much of a dinner date after all of that. The book is 626 00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:49,960 trailed one woman's quest to solve the Shenandoah murders, and we can definitely hope 627 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,880 for that eventual ending. Okay, thank you so much for joining us in 628 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,880 this episode of mind Over Murder. My pleasure. Thank you for having me 629 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,920 that's going to do it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. 630 00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:15,719 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 631 00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:22,639 and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 632 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,079 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 633 00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:32,599 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can 634 00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:37,800 follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our 635 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,280 page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow 636 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,119 Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening 637 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,039 to Mind Over Murder