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Is connected from the liturgical celebration of
the community. So for us, it

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doesn't make any sense to have eucharistic
adoration divorced from the actual full on liturgical

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service. And that's why there's so
many things that what trad cats think is,

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you know, quote trad cat Catholicism
is actually just a Latin medieval or

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a post Tridentine development. The ancient
Church didn't do that because they didn't separate

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communion or the reverencing of the gifts
from the entire liturgical celebration, which includes

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the entire community. Yeah, all
right, well thanks for you all.

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I mean, are you are you
aware that like that didn't occur in the

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first thousand years? Oh yeah,
no, obviously is a development within the

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church. But see us Roman Catholics, we would see that as completely valid

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as a part of this beautiful process
that the God has burned into place.

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How is theology a process when we're
told in the Canons of the ancient Councils

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that theology is not a process that
doesn't evolve, It doesn't evolve, But

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we discover, like we you know, the trinity, for instance, wasn't

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formally defined instantly, right, So
you think the Trinity is a discovery.

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Yeah, we Yeah, so it
wasn't. So it wasn't taught in the

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Old Testament. It wasn't defined.
Nobody did define it in that way.

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So so something is not the case
until it's discovered and defined. Well,

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we're not aware of it until that
happens. Right, How did then,

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how did how did the New Testament
writers argue the Trinity from the Old Testament?

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Well, so they didn't. That's
the thing I mean. You're saying

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that the New Testament writers didn't argue
the deity of the of Christ and the

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duty to Holy Spirit from the Old
Testament. They argued the elements of it,

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but they didn't actually argue the full
How can you arget take definition of

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it? How can you argue the
elements? You understand that the dogmatic definitions

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are just explicating what's there. Sure
that they help us understand it more fully?

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Right, And the point is we
didn't actually understand No, wait a

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minute, that's you said discovery.
That's different than understanding it fully. Well,

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you're discovering more about it, right, So again, the New Testament

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writers argue the Trinity from the Old
Testament. How does Justin Martyr argue against

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Tripho. Well, I mean,
I'm not as well read as you on

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that side, but well, hold
on, so this is this is pretty

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well. Hold on, this is
pretty important for the history of Trinitarian theology.

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I would think you would know that
since you're arguing for the development of

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doctrine. What's the question, what's
the course of argument? What's the course

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of argument that Justin Martyr takes with
Trifo? Did you Well, this is

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an argument of this is commonality between
us. It we believe believe that you

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know, these things actually were revealed
to us, you know, for a

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process. Yeah, but see,
your church teaches that the Old Testament taught

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a Unitarian deity and that the New
Testament revelation is of the Trinity. I

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don't believe that, and I'm showing
you that the New Testament writers don't believe

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that, because how does Jesus argue
for the relationship of the Father and the

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Son in the book of John.
Well, that's the thing, is new

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Ones. There's so much his context
depend on. It really depends on how

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does he argue in John five?
Well, I would need to get my

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Bible if you want to talk about
it. I mean, I got mine

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outlets. Do you want to see
what he shows? Don't repeat my name.

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Don't repeat my name. So right, so I'm asking and you're giggling.

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I'm asking you basic Trinitarian questions.
No, we don't, we don't.

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I just told you fundamental disagreements.
The Old Testament doctrine of the Trinity

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is why we believe in the Trinity. That's why Jesus refers to the relationship

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of Moses on the mountain in Exodus, and he says, I'm the one

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talking to Moses on the mountain in
John five, to the Pharisees. Okay,

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in John sixteen seventeen, he talks
at fifteen sixteen seventeen, he talks

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about the Holy Spirit. That Holy
Spirit is all throughout the Old Testament as

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a distinct person. And that's why, for example, many of today's rabbis

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admit multiplicity in God in the Old
Testament. The New Testament writers constantly refer

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to the Old Testament to prove the
trinity. The word trinity has nothing to

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do with whether or not the doctrine
of the Trinity is taught. And that's

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why the Trinity is in the Old
Testament. Because Abraham believed in Father,

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he believed in Angel of the Lord
Logos, and he believed in the Holy

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Spirit. That's what the icon of
the three Visitors to Abraham means. So

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if you understood Trinitarian theology, you
would know that that's basic in Orthodox theology.

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Roman Catholic theology does not have that
as basic because Roman cathogy theology doesn't

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not have the Trinitarian doctrine. That
is correct, it has a heterodox development

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of doctrine. And you, guys, prove the development of doctrine like Trent

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didn't the debate with Trent by saying
that the Old Testament teaches a Unitarian deity

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and the New Testament teaches the Trinity. That is categorically false. So when

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Justin Martyr debates Tripo the Jew,
he argues the Trinity from the Old Testament.

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That's before the codification of the doctrine
of the Trinity. So you understand

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that theology is taught before the words
are used. But Roman Catholicism confuses explication

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of doctrine with development of doctrine.
And that's how you got to all the

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innovations of what you're talking about of
eucharistic adoration and a thousand other things in

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papalism that has nothing to do with
biblical theology, nothing to do with patristic

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theology, and violates all the canons
of the first seven ecumenical councils. WHOA,

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okay, beautiful you you know,
taking parts in the Old Testament and

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then using that support the daughtrine of
a trinity. Hold on, you understand,

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Jesus and the Church fathers do that? You said, I'm doing it.

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Jesus and the Church Fathers do well, you repeat to it. But

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that's beautiful, I tell you.
Do they not do that? But do

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they not do that? Why are
you repeating my name? Do they not

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do that? Yeah? They do? But yeah, you said something quite

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interesting. You actually said the Orthodox
and Roman Catholics we actually have different definitions

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of a trinity. Absolutely, that's
quite an extreme position. No, it's

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it's one factual. I'll say it, because there are medieval councils excommunicating one

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another over the trinity. So in
what way does does our definition of a

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trinity differ from yours? Well,
I just gave you an example that the

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Old Testament doesn't teach a unitarian deity. I agree, So natural theology is

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not true because natural theology usually predicates
that the Old Testament teaches a Unitarian deity

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and the Trinity is a New Testament
revelation if you read into it, I

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mean read into it again. So
is that not Vatican Two's doctrine or natural

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theology or is it? I think
it's uh? You know this is why

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no, strich, No, your
your church teaches that Muslims and Christians believe

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in the same God because they're monotheistic. Do you agree with that? No,

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again, that's that's not what it
says. Yes, it does.

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It's an interpretation. No, hold
on, So wait a minute, it's

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an interpretation. I thought Vatican two
and the Documents of Dogma are are the

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interpretation. So you're saying that that's
an interpretation of an interpretation. Jay,

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why do you keep repeating my name? Can you address the argument instead of

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look j J J J Look Jay, Let Jay, because it's a deflection

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and it's a stupid tactic. That's
like NLP. Why are you giggling?

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It does crazy? Yeah, okay, enough of that fumbles, right,

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So the you see what happens is
that they do the exact same thing.

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They always do. This rather than
address specific points, they do this condescending

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giggle, especially the Brits and the
Australians. They're all they all do this

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exact same thing, Ja from Brian's
bass. The problem. Look, can

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you not have a conversation that sticks
to the points and addresses them. You

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don't have to say my name fifty
times? Look, Jay, look,

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look, look look, Ji,
look, look, look, look,

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look, look, look look,
come on, and that condescending giggle.

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Dude, get out of here with
that, and the Roman calics are was

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like, do you so mean?
He do me? But I have to

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listen to a condescending giggle infinitely repeating
my name and not addressing any point that

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was raised. Fumbles, Oh yo, j did you hear Ted Kazinski died?

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No, he died, money died
in prison. Interesting, So anything

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to do with what we're talking about
today. I'm not trying to be mean

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to you, but it's open.
It's open for him debate on Rome Catholicism,

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Protestantism, atheism not Ted Kazinski day, Yeah, yeah, well with

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Roman Catholicism. I have a gave
me a question about the what's have you

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ever addressed the Pope Agatha question?
I feel like you have, but if

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you have anything to say about it, I'd like to maybe mentioned it because

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I saw some Roman Catholics say something
that Pope Agatha appropaently proves something to do

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with the pH I mean, we've
addressed that probably five hundred times. So

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you can go to um the Denny
book on ta Papalism. The chapter on

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Pope Agatho is great because number one, it shows that it's not papalism for

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two key reasons. First of all, the council itself excommunicates the prior pope,

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so that shows that the papacy is
not the rock, and it is

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defectable because the council and three subsequent
councils also that continue to repeat the anathema

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of Honorius clearly didn't interpret the statement
of his letter to be infallible. So

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just because the pope claims something in
a letter, it doesn't mean that therefore

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the entire church accepts that. Furthermore, Pope Martin had already condemned monothelotism.

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If this was a papal situation,
there would not have been a council.

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They would have just looked to the
prior condemnation of monothelatism by Pope Martin.

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They would not have spent time investigating
the Letter of Agatho to see if it

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was Orthodox, just like they investigated
the Letter of Leo to see if it

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matched up with Saint Cyril. So
when you read, when you understand that

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context, then the papalist argument is
absolutely nothing. M Yeah, okay,

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well so but I'll get you someone
else now right, Well, nice again,

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hope in a while. Yeah,
man, thank you, good question,

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good question, stagging? Oh hi
Jay, Sorry, Um, I

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just turned on the spaces, like
right when you said you're gonna start uh

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speakers, and so I'm not sure
exactly what the debate is about. Buys

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had it, So it's open for
him debate or Q and A. It

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doesn't have to be debate the topics
of Roman Catholicism, protestantsm Atheism, Islam,

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Pagan's, uh, philosophy, Biblical
theology, geopolitics. Okay, I

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just had a question about the masoretic
Uh, the Bible's like, aren't they

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the word God? Wasn't it based
off of Yahweh or Elohim or l which

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are words that they don't know what
it means exactly. They're they're just terms

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like the word divinity, right,
so that it's like saying divinity can be

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a generic descriptor or of a god, of a demon, or of the

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true God. So it's no different
than the word divinity. So people make

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dumb word concept. I'm not talking
about you, but people just make word

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concept fallacy mistakes of thinking that the
word divinity is a proper noun. It's

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not. Okay, that's interesting,
just like the word God is not a

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proper noun because it can be used
for gods. It can be used for

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God, it can be used for
the divine nature, could be used for

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the divine persons, could be used
for divine energies. The word God can

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pick out different things. It doesn't
pick out one single thing. And probably

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eighty percent of people's not you,
but dumb theological mistakes and errors are about

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things like this. For example,
Muslims think that the word God can only

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pick out Allah in his unity and
his simplicity, as if the word God

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can't pick out multiple things. Okay, And like the words the Holy Spirit

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like spirit, it was from the
Hebrew Hebrew word ruak, meaning like they

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don't know. They have two meanings
on what they think that word originally meant

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but it is like either well again, so spirit could spirit could pick out

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a human spirit, an angelic spirit, or it could pick out the divine

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spirit their generic terms that can pick
out different things. What do you think

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about these new ancient technology like I
guess they call him conspiracy theories, but

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like the that there was ancient society
with like good good, like better technology

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than we have now ten thousand years
ago before the cataclysmic event. Yeah,

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I suppose that's possible. I mean, if the Book of Enich is telling

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us, you know, some kind
of story like that, then and that's

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that's possible. But it's very speculative. So good questions. Let's move on.

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Varangian m all right, try to
try to come back in. I

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can't hear. You're not making any
sounds. Mean badger, what's up,

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dude, I'm mute. M I'm
mute. Guys, when you come on,

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you're muted. You gotta umute yourself. He's so mean. Imagine saying

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the same thing five hundred times and
you think I'm mean. I used to

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wonder why radio show hosts and TV
like, why they would kind of get

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like seemingly fussy, you know when
you see the bill O'Reilly clip or when

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you see the clips of Laura Ingram
and she's being kind of rude. It's

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because when you work or do things
in media, there is this never ending

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thing that you always have to do
that gets really annoying because you want to

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move on and do things, and
so when you have to tell people to

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unmute, like every time, it
gets really annoying for you to have to

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do it. Does that make sense? And then everybody's just like lukell,

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impatient to use. Look, we're
more virtuous than him. We've won.

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He's not virtuous. We are great, we have defeated him. So look,

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dude, un mute. How hard
is Everybody spends all day on their

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fricking phones and people can't figure how
long has twitter happened? Twitter has been

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a thing for a long time.
Spaces have been a thing for a long

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time. All you gotta do is
I'm mute. It's not hard. By

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the way, I'm having fun ranting
about it before the people will clip this

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and be like, we've caught him. We've caught him. He's not virtuous.

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We knew it all along. It's
a glorious day for us soy mails

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we've won. That's how a soy
maal exults in his soyness. By the

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way, that's how they act.
Jonathan, what's up, dude to me

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means to me, yes, sir, So, I've been doing some research

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and all this theological stuff, and
you know, a lot of different camps

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have some good arguments, and I
was curious what your path was to figure

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out how you ended up being a
Porthodox rather than stopp any one of the

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other camps. Well, I mean
that's kind of an involved question. I

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don't mind answering it. By the
way, guys in the chat, if

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you would hit like and share over
on YouTube, we got a nice four

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hundred crowd over there. Let's get
let's get those numbers shops. Get those

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00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.640
numbers shop and if you want to
support the show, you can buy the

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00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:55.079
super chat function, which is through
stream Labs. What are your channel monitorsed?

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00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.839
Because I got de moonitized a long
time ago, So super chats are

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by stream Labs. That's the stream
Labs link right there. So I mean

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there's a lot of I mean,
I had a kind of a long journey

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to Orthodoxy through being raised Protestant and
then Calvinists. I got into Calvinism and

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Bible College, a did Bonsan seminary, and then I got into Roman Catholicism

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Tray Catholicism throughout my twenties eight,
nine, ten years ish, and then

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I got into Orthodoxy, but I
wasn't ready in two thousand and seven or

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eight, so it took me about
ten years to come around the Orthodoxy.

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And I'd spent a long time going
through kind of agnostic phase, not agnostic

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like there's no God, but like
agnostic to the different traditions of you know,

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Christianity so called. But I think
ultimately for me it was seeing them

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the problem positions in Protestantism, the
contradictions between pre impost Vatican to Roman Catholicism,

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which has only been accentuated in the
last twenty years or so. Um

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spending time in both of those worlds, as well as continuing to get deeper

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into the Eastern Church fathers, the
history of the Church, the various councils,

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and what the Roman caw that cannons
and councils were saying versus the cannons

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of the first thousand years of the
Church. Those are kind of the big

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deciding factors for me as well as
biblical theology. Okay, that makes sense

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because you know, I don't want
to just make a decision based off of

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like how I feel exactly. No, sure, you can't base it on

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that likely you know, emotionally involved
things. So it's not like you can

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just like figure out from sort on
biased perspective, right right, distance myself,

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right, So I guess I was
just trying to figure out and you

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know, sooner than later, because
you know, trying to suck to be

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in the prom Church and in car
correction. So well, yeah, I

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mean I think I wouldn't base my
decision on fear. I wouldn't base it

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on emotions. I think the only
way to do it is to base it

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on spending time in the material and
looking at the different arguments, because any

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other basis that you do, if
you make a choice on that, it's

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not gonna you're not going to be
content with that. You're gonna be you

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know, when you're Orthodox for a
year and you start seeing problems in the

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Orthodox Church, you're gonna move on
to something else because the basis for which

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you came in was not solid.
So I think that emotions and you know,

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threats and concerns. They play a
role, but they can't ultimately be

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the deciding factor. So I would
say it has to be on the basis

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of the history, the theology,
the objective facts. That's literally the only

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way to do it. Otherwise you're
gonna be wandering through a mirage, through

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a maze of bad arguments and bad
reasons. And a lot of times people

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choose churches for bad reasons, and
that's the worst thing to do. For

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example, we almoll be a trag
kit because that could be politically based.

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Okay, that's nothing to do with
what Jesus is preaching in the Gospel,

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right, Jesus is not preaching making
you politically based. Now, there might

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be an outworking of political basement down
the road, but the whole purpose of

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this is the transformation of you,
right and theosis. If that's not your

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goal, it's not. If that's
not the actual experience, then you're in

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a religion of dead works that is
really just a model for some kind of

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political thing. And I think that's
principally what papalism is. Papalism is the

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worship of authority and something that eventually
became geopolitical and humanistic. It is not

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ultimately about you undergoing repentance and transformation
of yourself. That's why everything in that

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system is this weird transactional thing where
I do whatever I want. I can

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be ridiculous all week and act like
a behemoth, and then I go to

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confession and do my little transaction and
I'm good. I mean, that's just

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ridiculous. Like the whole point of
the religion is to for you to undergo

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transformation, to become a partaker of
the divine nature. Like I see that,

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Like that, that's that's what I
want. Like you would ask most

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Christians that question. I think they
would say that, you know, maybe

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not all of them, right,
but the lot of the ones that will

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like keep their Bible every day and
pray and things that you can give a

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church everyone. That seems like a
pretty generic Christian answer. So okay,

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well, so let's be precise.
So I'm not putting you on the spot.

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I know, I know you're not
necessarily debating, but I mean,

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what are some of the objections that
you have, Like do you think Protestantism

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is more appealing or Roman Catholicism as
opposed to Orthodox syne And I never really

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could figure out the whole thing,
and I was raised Anglican. Hold On,

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I didn't you cut out the whole
what the whole people infallibility deal?

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That just seems very sucks. Yeah, having come in eighteen hundred years after

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Yea, Peter, sure, I
am. I do been thinking that's suspicious.

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No, I've made a very argument
many times, so I don't think

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it's dumb. Yeah. So,
I mean, if there is one true

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church, right, then I guess
I would have to default to orthodoxy.

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But on the other hand, like
you know, I've seen a lot of

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good things happening in these Protestant areas, you know, like they'll become Christian,

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just generic Christian, and then you
know their whole life is turned around

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and it really seems like to do
love Jesus. So it's like, I

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mean, how do I swear that
with there's the whole there's only one church?

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Well, the fact that there's good
things that happen and there's graces that

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exist in the outside the church,
it's fine. That doesn't and that doesn't

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mean that those people aren't having a
real experience of grace or that they're not

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moving towards Christ. But that doesn't
negate the fact that there's only one body.

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You know, Jesus says, for
example, that there would be one

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flock and one shepherd, and he
said, and Paul says, that there's

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one Lord, one faith, one
baptism, one body. So you can't

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have that existing amongst thousands of different
sects. There's got to be one.

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And the only one that has the
same theology of the first thousand years is

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the Orthodox Church. There's literally no
other one. So I think that what

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happens is that God's grace is everywhere, right, the Holy Spirit is on

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the present, and Maximus has there's
a great section and at the Lastium where

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he talks about the different modes of
the presence of the Holy Spirit. So

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there's a mode of the presence of
the Holy Spirit that's everywhere, that's unique,

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that's distinct from the mode of his
presence in the Orthodox Church. So

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it's certainly true that people are being
experiencing grace, but that grace is always

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a movement towards Orthodoxy. It's always
a movement towards the source of that grace,

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which is the actual body of Christ. When Jesus became incarnate, he

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took on an actual historical physical body, right, and that same appellation of

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his body is said to the historical
Church, meaning that it is also a

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historical reality, that's a physical,
actual local presence. And if you think

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about the Protestant interpretations of say Ephesians
or Corinthians. When Paul's writing his letters,

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most Protestants, especially if they're coming
from like a Calvinist classical Protestant perspective,

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they believe that those letters are written
to the quote invisible Church, the

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true Christians that exists amongst the thirty
thousand sects. But that's not who Paul's

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writing those letters too. They're not
addressed to the invisible church at corinth to

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the invisible Church at Ephesus. They're
written to actual historical churches like Ephesus where

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Paul appointed Timothy to be bishop.
You see. Yeah, so the Orthodox

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Church, for example, there's still
a bishop of Ephesus. That's the that's

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the historic Church. So the fact
that people in other groups experience promptings in

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the pullings of grace does not mean
that therefore they are also the true Church.

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That's the non sequitur. Okay,
let me give you an example.

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There's a couple of chapters in Acts. I think it's like eight or nine,

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and then maybe like eighteen or nineteen
where the apostles Paul and the apostles

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they go out and they find disciples
and they go ahead and say, it's

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great that you guys have this faith. In one case, they are disciples

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of John who had not heard about
the laying on of hands and the Holy

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Spirit. Okay. And the Orthodox
Study bubbles great on that on those sections

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because it explains that Paul is representing
the episcopacy and he brings these people under

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the escapade. Say okay, so
he brings them under. He doesn't say

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you had no experience of grace at
all. He says, this is great,

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but you need to be under the
episcopacy. And that's what if you

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look at the history of the Orthodox
Church, for example, the Antiochians,

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when you had there was a large
group in the eighties of evangelicals that suddenly

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got interested in Orthodox here, right, and what do the Antiochians do.

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The Antiochians said, we will bring
you in under the episcopate, doing the

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very thing that Paul did. So
that's the I think that's the right approach,

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is to not completely deny people's experiences
and Protestantism wholesale. But to say

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that's great, but you need to
come into the church and be under the

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episcopacy. And that's why Jesus says, when the apostle see the guy casting

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out demons, they say, should
we forbid him? And Jesus says,

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we can't. We shouldn't forbid anybody
because anybody who's truly doing these things in

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my name, they will soon be
with us. You see. So that

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text which people always used to try
to prove a humanism, it's not actually

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a proof of a humanism. It's
proof that Jesus actually says no, if

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he if he's serious, he'll join
us. I'll have to reread those passages

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with that in mind, but thank
you. Yeah, any more questions,

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Um, where does traditions start and
where does it stop? Like what what

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00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.799
what constitutes the tradition? Right?
Because you know you can say, okay,

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we've got this saint said that says
that, how do you say you

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know this is a holy tradition,
this writing of his saint, and this

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is just a regular tradition. Yeah. So, so, first of all,

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divine revelation is not the same as
something that a saint said necessarily right.

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Divine revelation is the full teaching of
the Apostles contained in the Apostolic deposit

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both written and oral. So one
of the great examples of trade is the

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liturgy and liturgy, for example,
the style and structure of the church's worship,

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which is not actually listed anywhere in
the New Testament. For example,

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00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:15.079
it's a it's a it's a it's
a thing that the Apostles gave to the

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Church that is not in written form
but is in performative form. In other

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00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:26.720
words, it's it's a performance,
it's a it's a structure that the Church

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did, rather than what the Church
was concerned with writing a version of it

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and disseminating it. Because the Church
from the earliest day has had a hierarchy,

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orthodoxy is both hierarchical and decentralized at
the same time. So in the

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early Church you had people doing the
liturgy, and the Bible is part of

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the liturgy. The actual context of
the Bible is to be heard in liturgical

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celebrations. Why, because that's how
the Jews did it. The Jews read

359
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:59.319
the texts. You could read them
at home if you had David's scrolls,

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but actually they're meant to be heard
in the liturgical worship of the community of

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the Church. So the Bible itself
actually comes to be and to be codified

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in terms of the canon via the
liturgical tradition of the Church. A lot

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of people don't know this, but
the decision of what books would go into

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00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:26.359
the canon as many factors. One
of those by the fifth and sixth century

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was looking at the liturgical texts and
the daily readings of the church. So

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the daily readings the lectionaries had a
key role in the determination of the Canada

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Scripture. And that's even most Protestant
scholars admit this. So liturgy is this

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one example of quote tradition of the
Church that is indispensable from knowing what books

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go in the Bible. Tradition includes
things like, you know, lies of

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the saints in that there's there are
stories in their lives inspire us to live

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00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:02.599
rightly and to accept you know,
martyrdom or whatever. Tradition is includes things

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like the decrees of the canons of
the councils right, So even though a

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canon of a council is not equivalent
to divine revelation, it's normative in the

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sense that you know, the Church
has the authority to make these rulings.

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And that's because Jesus said, I
you know, I've given you authority,

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right, he says to the church
in Matthew sixteen Matthew eighteen, he says,

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00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.480
he that hears you. Here's me
the church has the authority of Christ.

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And that means that they're going to
develop a structure by which they can

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00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.559
make canons and enforce them. So
all of those things are part and parcel

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of tradition. But divine revelation is
specific in that it is the theological teachings

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00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:48.400
that the apostles taught from Christ,
both in written and oral form. And

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00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:52.079
that's that's the church fathers teach this. The New Testament teaches us. The

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00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:56.440
Old Testament taught the same thing.
There was there was divine revelation contained in

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written and oral teaching. Okay,
okay, I think that answers a question

385
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:09.440
pretty well. Thank you so much, yet of good questions? All right,

386
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:17.559
Jack, what's up? Jack?
Thank you guys for those super chats.

387
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.640
You have to hit the mute.
People get we're just having fun today,

388
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:29.160
right, So people are freaking out
thinking that I was having a meltdown.

389
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:34.240
Now, I always joke around on
streams not a meltdown if you would

390
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.400
hit like and shared. Also,
there is the stream labs link for super

391
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:45.359
chats Jack Agent. I actually had
one question I was waiting on. But

392
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:50.640
you're something that you just mentioned there
that I'll kind of interject your m My

393
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.759
background is like kind of a great
Baptist and then kind of with Presbyterian Reformed

394
00:32:54.759 --> 00:33:00.519
And now I did the same thing. Okay, not that friend of mine

395
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:02.839
just recently kind of turns kind of
training on to your work and some of

396
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:07.720
the Orthodox stuff you mentioned just now
about you know, the liturgy, and

397
00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:14.799
that the Bible doesn't really talk about
how church is supposed to be conducted.

398
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.240
But one thing I really come into
kind of defined a lot of what I

399
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.759
think about the church is really around
First Corinthians fourteen, where it says really

400
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.400
specifically that two or people two or
three people should speak. There should be

401
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:34.799
a time for response, as in
critiquing and kind of judging publicly judging the

402
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:39.000
speaker's words. You should be able
to interrupt if one person is speaking.

403
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:45.119
And the Conservative Church seems to me
says, you know, they love First

404
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.559
Corinthians fourteen thirty four, Wards says, let the woman keep silent in the

405
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:53.519
church, but it seems like,
you know, they just completely ignore it.

406
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:57.799
In that same passage, it says, if you claim to be your

407
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.799
religious or spiritual person, but you
don't acknowledge that this is how church is

408
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:06.799
supposed to be conducted, then you're
not even recognized. And it's a command

409
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:12.159
specifically from Christ. And so I
can't anymore. I think that the entire

410
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.960
environment of the church, of any
church, constant, anywhere else seems to

411
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:22.920
me a very kind of almost cockled
environment, because it's basically demeaning. Just

412
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:27.079
to me, I see the value
of in Christ's incarnation. And then when

413
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.840
he says I come as the first
point in many brothers, I take that

414
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.159
really seriously. I'm a brother to
Christ. And so you know, also

415
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.880
when you see even in Jesus teaching, he's always interacting, he's always dialoguing

416
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:45.559
and debating with people. And so
to me, this seems like the entire

417
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:52.320
environment of a church where you have
basically the paid professional religious elites or basically

418
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.480
telling everyone to shut up and sit
down. I'm the only person that's qualified

419
00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:00.400
to speak about God, and you
know, offer any kind of insights to

420
00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:07.280
me, it's so contrary to really
the entire like, if you look at

421
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.719
Jesus life, the kind of young
and archetypes, who are the bad guys,

422
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:15.000
who are the intruemies of God?
Because it wasn't the government, it

423
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.760
was the religious leaders. That's the
people he hated and despised. So when

424
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:25.960
I'm so, how do you reconcile
kind of first things fourteen with the liturgy?

425
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.920
Sure? So, first point is
that the Intertestamental period, as we

426
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:37.480
call it, is a unique time. So when we have the apostles going

427
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:42.280
out and establishing the church, there's
a lot of things going on that will

428
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:45.320
not necessarily be normative for the entire
history of the Church. So for example,

429
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:51.920
direct inspiration and sort of speaking in
various languages and whatnot that we see

430
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.280
at Pentecost, and Paul seems to
be describing elements of this when he's talking

431
00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:00.960
about the charismatic gifts to the Corinthians. And so the Holy Spirit inspires people

432
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:04.880
to sort of prophesy or to say
things, which we see in the Book

433
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.400
of Acts, right, So we
see different prophets and people inspire to sort

434
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:13.079
of spontaneously do things in the Book
of Acts, So you're correct that that

435
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:19.239
does occur. However, that does
not mean that that mode of worship or

436
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.960
dialogue or debate or whatever that goes
on in that early Apostolic siting would be

437
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:27.719
normative for the whole history of the
Church. So once the destruction of the

438
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:32.159
temple occurs and the apostles then spread
the message, and eventually the last apostle,

439
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:38.480
John dies, there's no longer going
to be this kind of direct speaking

440
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.239
of the Holy Spirit in that way. That doesn't mean there's not spiritual gifts,

441
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.719
and there's not discernment and miracles or
the Orthodox Church believes in all those

442
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.719
things. But what we believe is
that even in the Book of Acts,

443
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:52.400
Paul, I mean, excuse me, Corinthians, Paul talks about there being

444
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.719
a form of worship. But what
I meant was not that the New Testament

445
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.440
doesn't critique or talk about how,
roughly speaking, things should go. There's

446
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:07.400
not an actual list and service structure. Okay, So in the Old Testament,

447
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.400
like you know, obviously, God, if you read the story of

448
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:14.440
Nate having a Bayhu and Lebticus,
God's really concerned with how worship goes down.

449
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.159
You know what I mean? You
can't just do whatever you want,

450
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:21.400
because when Nate having a bay who
lights strange fire, they get killed because

451
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:25.239
they're doing it in an inappropriate,
not structured way. God is not the

452
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:30.880
other confusion we know. So so
hold on, hold on last point,

453
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.320
last point. Right. Last point
is that from the very first days of

454
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:40.079
the church we know that there is
an ordered liturgical worship service because it's in

455
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.280
the Church Fathers. They discuss this. For example, early early on,

456
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:49.400
Justin Martyr talks about the structure of
the church service that it is liturgical.

457
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.000
Paul has, for example, references
in his epistles to various liturgical recitations and

458
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.400
hymns that were being sung in the
first century of the Church. And when

459
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:08.800
you go to pretty standard scholarship amongst
Protestants, in Evangelicals and even sort of

460
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:15.880
like even Calvinist his liturgists, they
will admit that the earliest services were liturgical

461
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:22.079
worship. There's a great book by
Hugh Wybrew called Orthodox Liturgy, and he's

462
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:24.960
himself as an Anglican and he's writing
about the history of liturgical worship. There's

463
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:31.079
another great book called Orthodox Worship Content. Hold on continuity. Last is the

464
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:35.800
last point. Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church

465
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.119
by Williams an install And what you
see in these in these texts is the

466
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:44.719
admission that the first century of the
Church worshiped in a liturgical way, much

467
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.880
like Jews worshiped at the synagogue and
the Temple. When Jesus went to worship,

468
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:52.920
that's how he worshiped. So we
actually know how the ancient Jews and

469
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:58.000
the Early Church worshiped, and it
is the way that the Orthodox Church worship

470
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:04.159
is worships. Ultimately, it's kind
of your I feel like you're you're it's

471
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:09.800
there asking these religiousy leads are basically
asking me to give up what Christ promised

472
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.199
me. I mean, even it
says when when when God gives it the

473
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.719
First Corinthians fourteen, he says,
or did the word of God come originally

474
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:22.920
from you? Or was it you
only that are reached? If anyone thinks

475
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.639
that he himself to be a prophet
or spiritual and hicknowledge of things like which

476
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.320
I write to are commandments of the
Lord. But if anyone is ignorant,

477
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:34.800
let him be ignorant. The entire
passage of First Christ fourteen is it really

478
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:39.920
communicates that seems even more normative that
even though he's actually kind of rebuking the

479
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:46.920
Corinthians because they have diverged from the
normal way that Christ interacted with people.

480
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:52.199
So again, you did you not
hear I'm not being rude to but you

481
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.760
sort of repeated what I said as
if what I said you quoted a bunch

482
00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.039
of books. I just can't I
don't know the reference that I had to

483
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.920
go back and look and see what
their specific debate arguments are. No,

484
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.880
I didn't just quote books. I
also pointed out that there's an established structure

485
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:12.559
of liturgical worship that God has always
had in place, and your response was

486
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.760
to ignore all that and just restate
the fact that, yeah, but Jesus

487
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:21.079
dialogue with people. Yeah but Jesus
going out and doing minute, Jesus going

488
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:24.800
out and listen, Jesus going out
Paul and Peter, Paul confriended Peter in

489
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:31.760
the congregation. So okay, there's
no You just assumed that everything that happened

490
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.920
in the Apostolic period is normative for
the rest of the history of the Church.

491
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.519
Do you think we still have apostles? Right? Well, I mean,

492
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.239
I was just saying, ultimately that
you defer to the authority of the

493
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:49.079
institutional structure. Correct, So,
but do you understand the difference between the

494
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:55.079
Pharisees were a false religious structure that
we're persecuting Christ Jesus established a church structure.

495
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:02.119
Yeah, I mean you're talking about
You mentioned that this is the liturgy

496
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:07.159
was kind of from the beginning of
the ages, And what's your thoughts on

497
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:13.239
like the you know, the communion
the Lord's Table was conducted as a meal.

498
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:15.239
A copy. It's not true.
None of that's true. Years,

499
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:21.559
that's not true. It's not true. That's pretty well. You don't think

500
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:22.880
that was. There was no gopy
feast. I just did. No,

501
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:29.679
the the feast afterwards is not the
eucharistic liturgy Paul talks about in Hebrews thirteen

502
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:32.800
an altar which we eat from.
Protestants don't believe in an altar that you

503
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:37.639
eat from. But listen in the
Didak it's very clearly called the bittocky in

504
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.679
all of the early Church is very
clearly a meal. Did you not hear

505
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:44.719
what I said? The meal is
not the same thing as the Eucharist.

506
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.000
Yeah, they would have a feast
after sure, it is. Actually that's

507
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.639
how Jesus not even no it's not. You're just selling it practice. No,

508
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:57.320
Jesus is doing a eucharistic liturgy,
which is the fulfillment of the temple

509
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.639
and levitical service. Yeah, I
mean it might be worth it to go

510
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:05.960
look and look up because it's really
not disputed with For the first hundred fifty

511
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:09.280
years it was. You just didn't
listen to anything that I said. It

512
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.679
is disputed. You're not even don't
you don't even know how to pronounce that.

513
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.079
You're not even pronouncing the text correct
that you're sighting. It's the diddicky

514
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.639
and the didacky talks about the eucharistic
liturgy, and that's not the same thing

515
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:27.719
as a feast that they have afterwards. Okay, I'll go back and listen

516
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.360
to the replay because I do want
to look up those those couple of books

517
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:36.199
that you mentioned. Okay, the
original clown. Yeah, well, I'm

518
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:37.800
about to move on because I'm gonna
start getting mad and then people are gonna

519
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:45.800
say that I'm being me, So
we're gonna move on. Orthogone. Hello,

520
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:55.880
yes, sir, you're trying to
shoot in a damn nail gun when

521
00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:06.840
you're on a live stream. Come
on, man, von Schleef if you

522
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.360
already did your your question, please
don't come back immediately with another question.

523
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:15.519
Let's we want to get through different
people. Uh you hear me, Jack,

524
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:22.920
Yep? How you doing? Hey? Um? Uh So the last

525
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:27.599
couple of years, as I've kind
of dive deeper into orthodoxy, UM,

526
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:32.400
you know, I've I've started to
become a lot less classical liberal and my

527
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:37.280
thinking about things, you know,
think about my rights and my Constitution and

528
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:42.000
like acting like those are these UM
divine things when they're just when they're not

529
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.280
UM. But at the same time, like when I'm talking to people about

530
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:52.039
UM certain issues. UM. The
other week, I was talking to someone

531
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.239
about like the Second Amendment UM as
an example, and we were we were

532
00:43:55.280 --> 00:44:00.239
just having a discussion about it.
UM is there like you know, like

533
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:05.199
my my prior self would have you
know, again talked about like oh,

534
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.039
you know, my right to this
or my right to that. But again,

535
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:12.840
like my my thinking sort to kind
of change a bit about UM how

536
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:16.840
I approach these issues. But like
from a from an orthodox standpoint, is

537
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:21.800
it just something that's it's kind of
subjective. You can you know, have

538
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.199
your own opinion on it, just
like you know, is it something you

539
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:29.000
should out of the Second Amendment.
Let's let's let's use that as an example.

540
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:31.800
Um, is it? You know, I don't mean I don't think

541
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:36.800
the church the church has like an
official wing one or the other of what

542
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.679
they think. But I mean,
well, I'm sorry, Well, Divine

543
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.880
Revelation trump's the cannons of the Church. So I mean, I'm not saying

544
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:45.480
that the canons of the church or
contrary to the I mean, but I'm

545
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.280
saying the Divine Revelation says you have
a right to self defense. It's an

546
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:54.559
exodus. Okay, okay, okay, So, um, using that as

547
00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:00.840
the the starting point, then that
will logically conclude that, you know,

548
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:06.800
having ways to defend yourself would be
justified like from a from a Christian in

549
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:08.280
orthodoxy. Now you have to defend
your family. I mean, go look

550
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:14.159
up the ro Corps studies on ro
Corps, history of rod Corps study on

551
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:19.880
war. Okay, okay, yeah, I mean imagine saying, oh,

552
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.880
you're a man, but you can't
defend your family. I mean what yeah,

553
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.320
yeah, And obviously you know,
living in the modern world, like,

554
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.559
um, having a firearm is would
be the best way to do that.

555
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:37.159
So it makes sense that then you
know you'd be able to to have

556
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:40.800
one of course. Okay, got
you, got you all right, Well

557
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:45.920
I'll look into that. That helps
Jay, Yeah, yeah, just be

558
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:50.239
thinking about the lot good questions.
Yeah yeah, I definitely believe that the

559
00:45:50.280 --> 00:46:04.920
Bible teaches together right self defense in
Exodus. Duke of In in Inderta welcome

560
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.159
everybody. You want to support the
stream, you can do so via the

561
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.840
super chat function. You can also
support me via the links that are in

562
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:14.760
the show description. You can get
my philosophy course twelve lectures on the history

563
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:20.039
of Western philosophy over at Richard Grows
Autonomy marketplace. You can get tickets to

564
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:23.960
our live event with Jamie Kennedy in
Los Angeles July six. They're at the

565
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:28.599
event right link. You can call
in via Twitter space as if you want

566
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:30.039
to. You can have the floor
for as long as you'd like. If

567
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:32.599
you'd like to make an argument,
if you'd like to ask a question,

568
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:36.440
it's fine with me. You have
to have it on your phone. It

569
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.280
does not work on PC, and
you will be automatically muted because that's how

570
00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:42.880
it works. It's not me muting
you. Please don't make me say mute

571
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:45.239
twenty times if I give you.
If I say your name and you come

572
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:50.119
on just talk. You can send
super chats by stream labs. Everybody says,

573
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:53.119
how can I send a super chat? Stream labs stream labs stream labs

574
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:59.159
stream labs link right there? This
channel is not monetized. Are you there,

575
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:01.679
dude? Yes, I'm hey,
what's up? I don't so,

576
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:07.320
I'm doing great? How much?
Right? So my question to use about

577
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:10.880
the Oriental Artho Church, but first
element to say a couple of things.

578
00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:16.960
Can you speak up Oriental orthodox I
could barely hear you, Okay, So

579
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:21.239
I was I was just saying I've
been listening to your video and sent debates

580
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:27.599
for when I you've gotten basically interested
in between Christians theology. But yeah,

581
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.280
it was your videos and helped me
when I was losing faith and stuff.

582
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:35.840
But anyways, okay, so my
question, my question is this is myphritism,

583
00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:38.960
my physicism in your opinion wrong nothing, get our opinion. But like

584
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:43.840
Eastern Orthodoxy, is it wrong or
not? Yeah, it's wrong if you

585
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:49.719
interpret it in the way that the
Orientals so called do when they confuse nature

586
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.880
in person and they don't allow any
flexibility on the language. And that's why

587
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:58.599
the later Cyril and the two letters
to six senses says what we say.

588
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:02.079
And so there's a section of John
damascus Is on the Orthodox Faith where he

589
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:07.199
gives our reading of the word meaflusis. So if you just mean that Christ

590
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:13.039
is, if you just mean the
hyposidic union, that's fine. We agree

591
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.480
with that. But we don't think
that Christ is a tertium quid a third

592
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:21.719
thing. So we've done probably ten
streams on this. You can go find

593
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.599
the streams that I've done with David
real med White, David Arhan. Look

594
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:30.320
up those. There's countless of those. Okay, Well, so let me

595
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:36.039
let me put it like this.
So if I think Christ is basically fully

596
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:38.920
human and fully diffined, but in
one nature and one united nature, is

597
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:49.440
it yeah, because nature has a
specific terminology terminological use for us that the

598
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:54.880
later Councils specify that you have to
distinguish nature in person. So if by

599
00:48:55.239 --> 00:49:01.400
one incarnate quote nature you mean that
it's a hypostatic union and he's only one

600
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:06.840
divine person, that's the decree of
the Fifth Council that's attempting to reconcile you,

601
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:12.199
guys. If you mean that there's
no longer the continuance of two natures

602
00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:16.840
and two natural two with two natural
properties. That's heretical because did Christ did

603
00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:21.400
his human did his divine nature die
on the cross? I mean, it's

604
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.760
really obvious that that's not true,
right, It would lead to it would

605
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:32.800
lead to absurd notions. Okay,
yeah, go watch the discussions with me

606
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.880
and David Arhan. We've we've done
a ton of these. It gets really

607
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:53.639
complex. Chandler, what's up,
dude. I'm mute, all right,

608
00:49:54.320 --> 00:50:00.280
moving on if you can't, I'm
mute. I don't know what to tell

609
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:09.280
you. I feel sorry for you. Stroke guru. Guys, it automatically

610
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:15.000
mutes you just unmute. Here,
I am here, I am hey.

611
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:24.760
Okay. So Saint Augustine has it
that novum Testamentum in vetua latet vetus Testamentum

612
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:30.679
in novo patet the New Testament is
hidden in the Old Testament. The Old

613
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:36.039
Testament is revealed in the New Testament. This canon of interpretation is a standard

614
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:40.519
part of the Catholic approach to the
Bible. That's from Catholicism dot Org.

615
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.840
Yeah, I'm well aware of that
quote. What about it? So earlier

616
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:52.199
you were saying that Catholics do not
teach that the Trinity is in the Old

617
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:57.840
Testament. But this contradicts that,
right, So the guy was very specifically

618
00:50:57.880 --> 00:51:00.440
saying that the dogma of the Trinity
is not taught in the New Testament,

619
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.599
or it's give me the Old Testament, because he's talking about the formulation of

620
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:13.159
the doctrine of the Trinity at Nicia. By the way, do you understand

621
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:16.239
you under you understand that Augustine is
also an Orthodox saint. So the fact

622
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:22.280
that you quote a saint that's the
same between Orthodox and Roman Catholics does not

623
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:27.480
prove that that's Roman Catholic dogma.
But they do teach that the Trinity is

624
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:30.840
in the Old test Yeah, And
my point is that they contradict themselves because

625
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:37.320
the teaching of Vatican two and Natural
Theology contradicts that. Where does it say

626
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:43.599
that in Vatican too when it teaches
on natural theology and nosratate that Muslims and

627
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:47.159
Jews and Christians worship the same God
because of monotheism, They don't the Old

628
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:52.320
Testament teaches the Trinity. So all
you're doing is pointing out contradictions in the

629
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:58.320
Roman Catholic view. It's gonna really
how I felt when you debated Trent Horn,

630
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:01.000
I kind of feel like you smash
to you natural theology. Nobody didn't

631
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:07.159
because everything that you're saying shows that
you didn't even understand the debate. Well

632
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:09.159
that's what you're saying. Whoa what
a lot of people think. I don't

633
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:12.519
care what a lot of people think, because a lot of people who are

634
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.599
Roman Catholics in the comments think that
Trent lost the debate too. So how

635
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:21.199
do you understand that he would?
Do you understand that what you just said

636
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:25.320
contradicts Trent's whole argument? Are you
that slow? Well, there's no reason

637
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.760
to make at home in him attacks
their little buddy, you don't have the

638
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.159
Holy Spirit talk, So this is
what he goes this is what he goes

639
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:35.400
to, right, So the so
the church fathers don't have the wor the

640
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:37.440
Holy so they don't have they don't
have the Holy Spirit when they call people,

641
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:42.599
uh to work with you? Bro, bro true, I don't care.

642
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:45.199
I don't care what you have,
no argument? So I just showed

643
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:47.400
that you were an idiot. No, you didn't know, you didn't.

644
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:51.760
She's just words out. So this
is all these guys do is spew out

645
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:55.880
this stupid stuff to the audience.
Bro, you just contradict. You understand

646
00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.480
that Trent teaches at Trent. He's
not even he can't even address the argument.

647
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:05.800
He can't control himself because these people
are learning Masters in Cia. Like

648
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:07.840
you don't think the CIA is aware
that you got a Masters in Cia.

649
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:12.800
Like, they're just gonna let you, like expose them, a masters in

650
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:19.960
Cia, not even a coherent to
see, thank you, Roman Catholics,

651
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:22.920
Keep it up, keep it up. He didn't even realize that the dumb

652
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.679
quote, the quote mind that he
had is the opposite of what Trent argued

653
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:35.239
in the debate. Trent said that
the Old Testament doesn't teach the Trinity right,

654
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:39.599
illustrating my point. The Roman Caloic
theology contradicts. So so you see,

655
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:44.000
you see the absurdity and the ridiculousness
of Roman Catholics. And then what

656
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:47.559
does he do. He launches into
this reformed uh or axcuse me, this

657
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:53.599
uh Roman Caloic disputing of nonsense.
I got a masters in Cia. I'm

658
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:57.920
gonna say that was so dumb that
that had to be a troll. But

659
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.360
then again, with Roman Catholics,
you never know, you never could easily

660
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:15.199
be a legit just low iq Roman
caw that you can never know, Joseph.

661
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:19.280
So we had a we had a
pull at the beginning as to how

662
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.840
many trolls would show up, and
we said two or under. So I'm

663
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.679
gonna say, was that I mean, that was so dumb. I can't

664
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:31.360
figure out if that was. Did
you get your degree? And see it

665
00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:37.639
is imagine thinking that CIA is a
degree. I got my degree in CIA.

666
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:43.480
Wow. I kind of wish you
to what's up, Joseph, ahead,

667
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:52.079
you gotta have some patience with the
Catholic traads this week because it's been

668
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:58.880
one sex scandal after another. It's
just really imploding. And when when I

669
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:05.519
tried it in age these people on
Twitter, their response is always will you

670
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:09.239
guys allow you know, divorce,
rey marriage and contraception? So you know

671
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:15.360
that's that's all they are. Yeah, all they have is what they think

672
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:22.360
is a moral one up, which
is really signifying complete defeat. I mean

673
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.679
that guy, that guy didn't even
realize that the very thing he's arguing is

674
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:30.360
the opposite of Trent's argument in the
debate. But yeah, great points,

675
00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:36.280
Joseph. There was anything else you
wanted to say? No? Yeah,

676
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:42.400
I meant, you know, you're
cutting out so I'm sorry, We'll move

677
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:45.679
on. Yeah, I mean that's
all Roman Catholicism has left is this kind

678
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:49.320
of stuff. And by the way, you notice the commonality between the people

679
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:59.079
who like lose their mind over me
and that guy and the soy so called

680
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.480
orthosphere, it's always the exact same, right, they just launch into the

681
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:07.320
spewing of a bunch of nonsense.
The I with you. Look at you,

682
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:16.400
man, beloid the curtain soul?
What's up dude? How's it going?

683
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:22.000
Does that guy think that that's gonna
make romcas also isn't appealing to anyone?

684
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:27.000
Just how stupid and low like you? That was? Well, I'm

685
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:29.880
here to expose you, Jay,
Please, do I need to be exposed?

686
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:34.480
It's time finally the giant pyramid.
But six scheme you've got going in

687
00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.880
your backyard? Got all the evidence? No, I'm just kidding. What's

688
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:43.239
up? Um? So? I
was actually the talk with Father Peter here's

689
00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:49.599
um yesterday and he was talking about
he seemed to be arguing against the humanism

690
00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:54.079
on the basis that you really can't
be good without being conjoined or communing with

691
00:56:54.199 --> 00:57:00.760
Christ in the body. Well,
I mean when you say be good ultimately

692
00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:06.480
for us being good means partaken of
theosis. But I mean you can be

693
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:10.360
good in the sense of you can
have virtues right without necessarily being in the

694
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:16.440
Orthodox Church, because there's the mode
of Christ's presence or the Spirit's presence is

695
00:57:16.599 --> 00:57:23.119
different in different situations. So his
presence in the world in an omnipresence way

696
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:28.519
is different than the mode of His
presence in the Church. So I would

697
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:31.199
just be more precise about the word
good there, like qualify what do we

698
00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:36.519
mean good? Because there is a
distinction between nature and grace. That's not

699
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:38.480
just a Roman Calvic thing. St. Gregory Palamus is very clear that there

700
00:57:38.559 --> 00:57:42.960
is a distinction between nature and grace. That doesn't mean that we have the

701
00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:46.719
nature grace two tiered dialectical scheme that
we find in Roman Catholicism, but it

702
00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:52.159
does mean that, as Paul says
in Romans too, people can in any

703
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:54.360
religion or in the world, because
the laws in their heart, the Word

704
00:57:54.440 --> 00:57:58.320
is near you, the Logos is
in your heart, they can still do

705
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:06.840
virtuous actions. Yeah. So me
and my brother have been debating this and

706
00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:08.559
he brought up, you know,
the law being written on your heart.

707
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:13.360
And when I go to Romans two
and three, I'm reading Saint JOHNI.

708
00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:20.400
Persostum's homily on Romans two and three. Um. He Paul seems to be

709
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:24.119
making the argument that the Jews are
condemned under the law of Moses and the

710
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:29.280
Gentiles are condemned under the law of
nature, the law written under Yeah,

711
00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:32.239
but he says when they do right, they are either accused or excused.

712
00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:37.599
Yeah. And see when when you
go to the fathers on that you get

713
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:43.039
what I'm what it seems they don't
seem to be taken that as Oh well,

714
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:46.199
these people can somehow be like saved
through these goods. No, no,

715
00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:49.559
no, I didn't say saying no, no, no, I didn't

716
00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:52.320
say that. I said they can
be accused or excused on the basis of

717
00:58:52.360 --> 00:59:00.599
the actions, not the person themselves
being saved. Okay, So when a

718
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:05.679
pagan does something right, can he
make can he do a good act?

719
00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:10.639
Absolutely? I mean human beings have
a let's say, I mean it would

720
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:15.079
be a Calvinist view to think,
for example that I'm not saying you're saying

721
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:19.800
this, but to think, for
example that if a pagan mom loves her

722
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:25.719
son right, there is a created
human energy of love that's proper to our

723
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:30.480
nature right, where you can't have
love for your for your siblings right.

724
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:36.920
And to think that everything that a
pagan does is inherently sinful or automatically sinful

725
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:42.480
is actually a Manichean slash Calvinist view. It would mean that every action is

726
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:46.639
sinful in some way. That's not
true. Okay, So there's a distinction

727
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:52.199
between nature and grace, and you
can do naturally virtuous actions. That's why

728
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:58.639
let me give you an example.
In the Homilies of Saint Ambrose. He

729
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:05.039
picks out the class sickle pagan virtues
and he ties them into how Christians can

730
01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:08.400
understand and read them. So what
I'm saying is that not everything in the

731
01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:14.039
classical pagan world of virtues is false. That's why they're Many of the church

732
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:19.920
fathers will cite Aristotle and cite his
you know, text on virtue versus vice.

733
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:23.920
Right, that wouldn't be the that
wouldn't be the case if every action

734
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:29.360
that you did was sinful in some
way. That's Calvinism. Yeah, I

735
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:31.639
don't think I would want to argue
that every action is sinful in some way.

736
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.000
It's just he's thrown I wish I
had all of his like PDF for

737
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:40.239
um, what he was going through
because he had a bunch of quotes from

738
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:44.320
the fathers. Um, one of
the ones, I do have a screen

739
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:49.320
shot. Well he who's who?
Hold on? He he? What's his

740
01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:51.960
what's his art? What's his position? I don't know? Is this a

741
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:54.400
Calvinist roma cal that? What's his
position? Well, what's Father Peter here?

742
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:57.400
So it's oh, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, I forgot you were

743
01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:02.239
talking about in the text of a
Humanism. So he's then flipping and saying

744
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:07.800
that the heterodox rights can't have grace
in them on the basis of them not

745
01:01:07.880 --> 01:01:10.679
actually okay, yeah, but so
I'm not sure about his argument, but

746
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:17.199
yeah, it's it really doesn't matter
about like just because you're I mean,

747
01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:22.880
the natural virtues that are proper to
human nature, they also come from Christ,

748
01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:24.920
Maximus says, and they do point
this to Christ. But they're not

749
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:32.760
equivalent to theosis, you see,
So, um, could we argue that

750
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:37.840
because there are I mean, I
just don't understand the connection between whether there

751
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:44.440
are virtues in the pagan world to
the heterodox not having grace and the sacraments.

752
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.400
I mean I don't think that they
do. So, yes, So

753
01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:51.920
if you'll let me quote Saint Cyril. Real quick, I'll get off.

754
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.119
But so Saint Cyril, and you
can just explain what this is, what

755
01:01:54.159 --> 01:02:00.119
you think this quote means. Saint
Cyril Jerusalem rights that the manner of piety

756
01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:06.119
or fear of God consists of these
two of pious dogmas and of good deeds.

757
01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:09.119
And either the dogmas without good works
that is life in Christ, are

758
01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:15.039
acceptable, are acceptable to God.
Nor does God accept works done without pious

759
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:22.480
dogmas. That is the truth of
Christ. And yeah, but where am

760
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:27.280
I misunderstanding here because it does seem
to be saying with like without pious dogmas,

761
01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:31.000
without the dogmas of the Church.
So again, so again, if

762
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:35.840
you read out the last Seam or
Saint Maximus talks about the mode of the

763
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:40.199
presence of the spirit, it's different
in the world as it is in the

764
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:46.960
Church. So God can accept and
appreciate the virtues that men have that are

765
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:51.840
natural virtues. That does not mean
that they're being saved that is theosis.

766
01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:54.280
Those are things that move us and
point us in the direction of theosis,

767
01:02:54.280 --> 01:03:00.920
but they're not theosis. So in
one sense they're acceptable in God appreciates when

768
01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:07.400
a pagan mom loves her son,
but that doesn't make her saved. Okay,

769
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:14.639
So acceptance in one sense, not
acceptance in another sense. Okay,

770
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:37.159
all right, that's all I got, Man Dawkin. Yeah, I mean,

771
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:43.760
Saint Cyril Jerusalem is not doing an
ex curse. Saint Cyril Jerusalem is

772
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:51.280
not doing an excursus on the status
of classical virtues and being precise about He's

773
01:03:51.320 --> 01:03:55.320
saying, two Christians, what matters? Right? Yeah, just a second,

774
01:03:55.480 --> 01:04:00.400
So he's explaining. He's explaining what
matters ultimately for us. He's not

775
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:08.360
explaining the speculative question about whether God
in any sense appreciates the love that a

776
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:12.880
mom has for her son. So
again, the natural virtues are not inherently

777
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:17.400
sinful. They don't necessarily save us, but they are They orient us to

778
01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:24.880
grace and to Christ because our nature
is not evil. Okay, we can't

779
01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:32.239
have a theology that says that all
of our works before Christ are inherently evil.

780
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:36.880
Okay, that's too black and white. There are natural virtues. Natural

781
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:42.840
virtues don't grant us theosis and salvation, but they orient us in that direction.

782
01:04:43.519 --> 01:04:46.079
And that's pretty common amongst the church
fathers. So if you find a

783
01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:49.519
quote of Cyril Jerusalem, I'm not
knocking anybody for doing that. But I'm

784
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:56.199
saying that Cyril is not talking about
the topic of does God accept any virtuous

785
01:04:56.239 --> 01:05:00.239
actions at all? Yes, he
does, Cornelius praise and God hears his

786
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:05.440
prayers even before Cornelius knew about Christ
and had a full out, worked out

787
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:11.280
theology in the church. Okay,
but that doesn't mean that you're saved from

788
01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:17.559
natural It doesn't mean you're saved or
participating in theosis from natural virtues. And

789
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:23.960
the reason we say that is that
you cannot say that everyone's actions are sinful

790
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:30.400
merely via nature. That would be
a kind of Manichean or Calvinist view.

791
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:34.639
So again, there's a difference between
works that are proper to our nature,

792
01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:42.280
that are virtuous and participating in theosis. There's a distinction between nature and grace.

793
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:45.880
That's very clear in Saint Gregor Palmus. What's up? Man? Hey,

794
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.840
what's up? Broth? So I
have a question about the doctrinal assurance

795
01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:58.280
and orthodoxy and so like, how
does news have a doctional assurance and how

796
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:03.639
does this play into episode justification?
Like can you actually have assurance on the

797
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:10.880
basis of like your justified true beliefs
being true? Wait, I thought you

798
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:16.320
were talking about assurance of salvation.
That's different from philosophical justification and epistemology,

799
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:20.039
which one are you talking about?
No, I'm saying, like, can

800
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:26.760
you can you have you know,
philosophical episdemic justification? Uh? And that

801
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:30.480
lead to assurance, like because like
that doesn't just necessarily presuppose that if your

802
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.159
worldview is true, then that means
the Christian faith is true? Right?

803
01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:39.360
Yeah, I thought you were talking
about the evangelical concern with the doctrine of

804
01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:46.880
assurance of salvation. That's different from
the question of epistemic justification assurance. But

805
01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:51.400
like, and is it really different
though? Or like is like from from

806
01:06:51.400 --> 01:06:55.239
my eyes? Yeah, they're different. They're totally different topics the same thing.

807
01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.960
They're not the same thing. They're
totally true. Wouldn't that mean no,

808
01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:00.719
they're not the same thing. Can
you not hear me? No,

809
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:05.599
they're different topics, so they're not
the same thing. I'm but I'm trying

810
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:10.519
to figure out how they're on the
same thing because one of them is about

811
01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:15.679
your individual situation in relationship to your
relationship to Christ. The other one is

812
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:20.800
about objective facts and logic and whether
or not a worldview is coherent. Two

813
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:26.679
totally different things. But like I'm
not seeing that they're different things, because

814
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.159
like it's like like they're necessarily interested
that we tied together, like the Christian

815
01:07:30.199 --> 01:07:33.360
faith in your own faith are.
Yeah, they might have a relation.

816
01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:36.440
Yeah, they might have a relation. But one of them is a question

817
01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:42.079
of your situation to the religion.
The other one is a question of the

818
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:46.360
factual truth or falsity of the religion. Two different things. I just I

819
01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:51.199
don't see that they're different things though, this thing because m from like my

820
01:07:51.239 --> 01:07:56.920
own understanding, Like I just think
that they're inextricably tied together, like because

821
01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:00.239
like from from in my personal situation. Can you not under listen? Hold

822
01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:05.960
on? So I'm not saying they're
not related. Anything can be related philosophically,

823
01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:13.119
but the fact that they're related doesn't
make them the same. But wait,

824
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:17.960
you're not explaining how they do doesn't
make them the same though, So,

825
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:27.720
um, is there a difference between
my belief in or excuse me,

826
01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:31.800
let's let's put it this way,
my relationship to the Communist party versus my

827
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:40.960
knowledge of communist philosophy? Are those
two things different? M Yes, they

828
01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:46.159
are different, but they're also linked, right, But they're different yeah,

829
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:51.600
they are different. Okay, we're
gonna move on now. Trying to be

830
01:08:51.640 --> 01:08:58.600
me with you, but I'm gonna
start getting mad, So Alex Chromatic,

831
01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:16.880
I'm you Jay Dyer. Yes,
sir, hey man, I don't really

832
01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:18.800
have anything to debate you on.
I just wanted to let you know.

833
01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:25.000
There's a YouTuber by the name Reckless
Ben, and he supposed reckless without a

834
01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:30.640
w Reckless Band b M. And
he did like a nineteen part expose on

835
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:35.920
the Twelve Tribes where he actually like
infiltrated the colt with spyglasses and spy watches

836
01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:41.279
and he made like this really insane
like expose on them. And I just

837
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:44.319
wanted to let you know real quick
that I thought it's on a playlist that

838
01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:45.680
he has on his channel. I
thought that would be a really dope content

839
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:49.039
for like if you're gonna do another
like cold live stream. Okay, y'all

840
01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:53.520
check that out, Reckless Ben,
you said. And also I just wanted

841
01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:58.920
to say, Oh, she's my
little guru. I met her one Instagram.

842
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:02.399
Nice. I like that, Yeah, baby, thank you for that.

843
01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:13.079
I'll check out Reckless Ben. Let's
see Dark Armor night. What's up,

844
01:10:13.159 --> 01:10:19.680
dude? What's that jaky yeah,
ye, perfects. All right.

845
01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:27.000
Um, it looks like I'm the
second Orthodox Christian from so I guess you're

846
01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:30.720
what, speak up? I can't
hear you? What can you hear me?

847
01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:35.760
Now? Yeah? Go ahead,
you're what? Um? Where I'm

848
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:40.920
from the region of to grive,
where my, my, my, where

849
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:45.600
my brand of Orthodoxy comes from.
There's this popular belief that we have the

850
01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:53.239
first remnants of human life that's called
you heard of Lucy. You're talking about

851
01:10:53.239 --> 01:10:57.560
that dumb ape theory of Lucy.
Yeah? Yeah, And I was going

852
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:01.439
to ask you about exit Jesus of
Genesis. On the sixth Day, it

853
01:11:01.560 --> 01:11:05.319
said that God friend man, but
then after the day of Rest, on

854
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:11.319
the sound Day, he restates himself. How does your view of evolution work

855
01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:16.960
with this sort of reading of Genesis? Uh, let you know, I'm

856
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:23.439
not I'm not a promoter of the
Lucy theory. Just OK. Yeah.

857
01:11:23.439 --> 01:11:28.600
I think that the two different sections
of Genesis are talking about God's vantage point

858
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:31.600
to human beings in two different relationships. So one is God's creator and then

859
01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:38.039
the other is God's relationship to man. But I'm not sure why that's a

860
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:46.520
problem or what does do with Lucy? What's up? Peter I'm you,

861
01:11:48.319 --> 01:11:50.760
hi, j how's it going,
Hey man, how you been I'm talk

862
01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:54.239
to you in a while. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. How are

863
01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:58.960
you doing good? What's on your
mind? I've said a question about the

864
01:11:59.119 --> 01:12:03.239
term logi? Is that a turn
like besides Saint Maximus? Are there other

865
01:12:03.439 --> 01:12:06.920
fathers who use the term logi in
this in sort of the same way that

866
01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:12.039
he does, or is that kind
of a unique thing to the same Maximus.

867
01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:15.760
No, I mean it's the older
version of the logo spermaticos, which

868
01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:20.520
predates even I mean, that's in
the Presocratics. So the logo spermaticos is

869
01:12:20.560 --> 01:12:26.560
a Presocratic doctrine. We find it
in Justin Martyr, we find it in

870
01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:30.039
the apologists of the first and second
century, some of whom unfortunately ended up

871
01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:36.680
heterodox. Basil talks about the logi. John Damascus, I think, mentions

872
01:12:36.720 --> 01:12:42.600
it, but Maximus is the first
to really go in depth. Okay,

873
01:12:42.600 --> 01:12:47.880
thanks, yeah, good question,
right, So I remember, guys,

874
01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:53.000
it's open for him. You can
have the floor. You can make whatever

875
01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:57.600
arguments you want. Just please make
arguments and make them coherent, and please

876
01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:02.640
avoid the tragcat verbal diarrhea of nonsense
if you can't. Although It is pretty

877
01:13:02.720 --> 01:13:06.920
entertaining, and I think it helps
to steer people away from the insanity of

878
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:15.399
Track out World. But Cyprian,
what's up? Hey, what's up?

879
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:21.039
What's up? Yeah? So,
um, you know who Christian Wagner is.

880
01:13:21.039 --> 01:13:25.119
Oh, well you know him.
Um there was like an unlisted stream

881
01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:30.039
he did on a Kyle's video,
and um, there's a point in the

882
01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:35.680
stream where he makes one of Kyle's
haying the essence drives from the Father,

883
01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:40.119
not the Father, from the essence, and then he just calls it nonsense.

884
01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:44.439
But I've read like Saint Gregory's Triads, and that just comes directly from

885
01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:48.159
like the last chapter. I'm just
wondering, that's like talking about the order

886
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:53.640
theology, not like the principle by
which the essence like drives itself from the

887
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:57.039
Father, right, sure. I
mean the order of theology is that we

888
01:13:57.119 --> 01:14:00.680
begin with a person of the Father. And you know, it's pretty basic

889
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:08.199
Nicene theology that the father, that
the son is generated from the father's nature.

890
01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:13.079
So he receives from the Father both
his personhood and his essence because he

891
01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:17.079
is the direct icon and image of
the Father's nature. So you can't have

892
01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:23.159
you can't have the generation of the
Son without the hypostasis of the Son also

893
01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:26.359
being generated. It's both come from
the Father, and this is this is

894
01:14:26.399 --> 01:14:32.039
stated in later counsels that the existence
of the Son and the existence of the

895
01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:39.479
Holy Spirit both derive their origin whole
and entire from the person of the Father,

896
01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:45.279
right, right, But that's because
persons act, not natures. Natures

897
01:14:45.319 --> 01:14:51.159
exist in the mode of the persons
who have those natures to act. Yep

898
01:14:53.000 --> 01:14:57.000
Um, I think I have two
more questions. So there are a lot

899
01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:00.520
of like Muslims, and they'll always
bring up like, oh, you know,

900
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:02.760
Jesus, he was praying to the
Father in the garden of Caosemite.

901
01:15:03.199 --> 01:15:08.560
But like you think, like Jesus
is like omniscient, right, So like

902
01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:12.039
how would that work? And I
usually think you just need like the human

903
01:15:12.159 --> 01:15:16.039
mind and the divine mind in order
to have like a like a prayer relation,

904
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:18.920
right, And so that yeah,
that would just answering. Well,

905
01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:24.720
I mean, the Trinity has always
been a community and a communion from all

906
01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:30.880
eternity, so there's always an exchange
amongst the persons, and so the Son

907
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.039
has always been relating to and loving
and reflecting the Father always, And so

908
01:15:36.239 --> 01:15:41.600
when Jesus is giving us that example. It is not just proper to the

909
01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:45.119
human nature and the human mind.
It is he is setting an example.

910
01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:49.199
But he also has always had that
derivative relationship from the Father. He always

911
01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:54.520
came forth from the Father, he
always loved the Father. And by the

912
01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:58.439
way, if Actus purists is true
in the Roman Catholic sense, then none

913
01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:02.359
of that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um.

914
01:16:02.359 --> 01:16:06.760
Okay, my last question is,
Um, this might be a little bit

915
01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:12.760
more like complicated, but it's on
the like the covenant of works like reform

916
01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:15.079
theology, the image of God.
How they'll say, like some of them

917
01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:18.600
will say, like okay, after
the fall, you gain the sin nature

918
01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:21.039
and then you lose the image of
God, which means you just don't have

919
01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:26.800
the capacity to receive the spirit.
And so it's like a purely external thing

920
01:16:27.119 --> 01:16:30.439
when you're like you know, justified, sanctified, et cetera. Right,

921
01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:34.520
Um, And like Perry Robinson makes
the argument that like that's Polagian, right,

922
01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:39.640
because it collapse the nature grace distinction. Right, Yeah, it is

923
01:16:39.640 --> 01:16:44.119
Plagian, correct. Yeah, it's
the Polagian view of prelapsarian man. Correct.

924
01:16:45.319 --> 01:16:49.199
Yeah, And that just comes from
like some sort of like categorical like

925
01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:55.840
monergism. Right, basically which thing
the confusing and the confusing and nature in

926
01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:02.520
person comes from the default acceptance of
Augustinian theology. So augustin and theology confuses

927
01:17:02.600 --> 01:17:08.319
nature in person in a triad that
gets confused in a human anthropology and in

928
01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:12.520
steriology. So reform theology is kind
of defaulted to adopting all of that.

929
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:16.840
Oh, I mean more like them, what is it the total depravity like

930
01:17:17.079 --> 01:17:23.399
losing any like capacity to like bringing
the spirit outside of something like external to

931
01:17:23.520 --> 01:17:26.920
us. Sure, but right,
that's correct. But I'm just saying that

932
01:17:27.359 --> 01:17:31.119
all of these kind of flow out
of the triadic mistake, so that the

933
01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:36.119
mistake in the triad is what leads
to all the way down to the errors

934
01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:41.159
in steriology where they believe in monarchism, because then your nature has to be

935
01:17:41.199 --> 01:17:48.520
completely overcome because you're inherently in rebellion
against God. Yeah. Yeah, and

936
01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:53.760
that's like the mono energism like ridiculous
to make Yeah, Okay, that's it.

937
01:17:53.840 --> 01:17:56.239
I don't really have anything else to
ask. Yeah, great, great

938
01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:58.119
points. And I mean yeah,
if you think about the Covenant, it

939
01:17:58.159 --> 01:18:04.960
works makes no sense because it's basically
also amounting to Jesus coming and merit and

940
01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:10.640
created grace. And so that means
the ultimately reformed theology is it's presenting another

941
01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:15.720
form of created grace, which is
what Roman Catholicism efficiently teaches. Jerome,

942
01:18:23.119 --> 01:18:26.279
you gotta hit I mute bro Hey, you can hear me, yes,

943
01:18:26.359 --> 01:18:33.159
sir, Hey, I'm just wondering
about when debating with people from an atheist

944
01:18:33.159 --> 01:18:38.560
worldview. Um, you know,
we're gonna try to point them towards Christianity

945
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:40.960
or whatever, because if you just
trying to convince them of a God,

946
01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:44.079
no, it's not really good enough. Most of the time. There's no

947
01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:47.760
such thing as generic God. Doesn't
exist. Say that again, there's no

948
01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:51.319
such thing as generic God. It
doesn't exist. There's no there's no such

949
01:18:51.319 --> 01:18:57.840
thing as that's natural theology by the
way, right, So you can't really

950
01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:03.520
do that. But one thing I
have our time with these conversations is the

951
01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:10.560
discussion of creation itself, because I
feel like from an atheist worldview, it's

952
01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:17.359
so hard to get past that.
Everything else is impossible to convince them of.

953
01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:23.319
What are your thoughts on that you're
saying, how to convince an eighth

954
01:19:23.560 --> 01:19:27.119
like, how would I argue that
there is a doctrine of creation to an

955
01:19:27.119 --> 01:19:30.000
atheist. Yeah, because it's so
hard for them to get past because of

956
01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:33.800
their worldview that that part of it. You can't even get past that part

957
01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:36.000
of it. And if you can't
get past that part, how do you

958
01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:41.279
get past any other part? Yeah. So that's why presuppositionalism and tag is

959
01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:45.159
so important, because that they've gotten
the cart before the horse. It's like,

960
01:19:45.199 --> 01:19:48.319
whoa wa, whoa, let's let's
let's rewind here. You're gonna tell

961
01:19:48.319 --> 01:19:51.239
me about, you know, the
beginning of the universe and all this stuff,

962
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:56.119
when I don't even think that you
can give an account for knowledge itself.

963
01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:59.159
You see, that's a much more
so. In other words, you

964
01:19:59.239 --> 01:20:02.680
gotta rather than argue with them over
creation, I'm going to argue with them

965
01:20:02.800 --> 01:20:08.159
over the presuppositions of their worldview.
And I'm not going to grant that they

966
01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:13.560
can even make claims about the world
or history at all. Sure, let's

967
01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:17.399
say they get that far and they
say, okay, I will use your

968
01:20:18.600 --> 01:20:23.520
methodology. I'll go the other sort
of the other direction that I'm used to.

969
01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:29.000
If we're trying to get them convinced
of Christianity, especially Orthodox Christianity,

970
01:20:29.359 --> 01:20:32.239
it's not so much that there's a
God that we're trying to convince them of

971
01:20:32.279 --> 01:20:38.880
as the Christian worldview, but the
story of creation at the very beginning of

972
01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:43.600
Genesis. I have a hard time
getting them past that. Not just me,

973
01:20:43.760 --> 01:20:46.800
but I see that online all the
time, Like that's the story specifically,

974
01:20:47.199 --> 01:20:51.000
it's historical. But they can't even
get past that part even if they're

975
01:20:51.039 --> 01:20:57.840
trying to believe that there's a God. Well, I mean, there's different

976
01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:02.000
ways you could take that line of
argumentation. I mean, why, why

977
01:21:02.159 --> 01:21:05.640
is what they think is the case
a better explanation? To me, it

978
01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:11.039
seems even more ridiculous. Yeah,
it's it's not a better explanation. But

979
01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:14.359
from their worldview, they're not just
going to be like, oh, well,

980
01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:16.399
okay, well let's put it.
Let's put it this way. So

981
01:21:16.479 --> 01:21:19.439
like, right, I mean,
there's a there is a process to this,

982
01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:25.279
even though I mean, even though
the worldview itself is a whole system,

983
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:30.039
most people don't immediately adopt the whole
worldview in their chronological existential experience.

984
01:21:30.119 --> 01:21:33.920
That's true. So it's true that
you know, a person might first begin

985
01:21:34.039 --> 01:21:38.239
to think, maybe there's a God, and maybe there's design, maybe there's

986
01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:43.840
purpose, and they're not necessarily adopting
the whole Christian system. That, by

987
01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:47.199
the way, doesn't make natural theology
too true because they're because they're going through

988
01:21:47.199 --> 01:21:53.039
this process piecemeal. That doesn't make
natural theology the case as if those things

989
01:21:53.079 --> 01:21:57.680
are true because a person chronologically piecemeal
goes through that that has nothing to do

990
01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:02.039
with what's objectively the case. That's
confusing your own temporal discovery of things with

991
01:22:02.520 --> 01:22:05.239
the fact that this is objectively the
case. I know you're not saying that,

992
01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:11.600
but so yeah, we might have
to, you know, work through

993
01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:14.840
a lot of different topics over a
long time. In fact, it took

994
01:22:14.880 --> 01:22:19.760
me a long time before I decided
that the theistic evolution narrative made no sense,

995
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:24.720
right, I held off on that
question until I spent a good time

996
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:30.319
reading about it and hearing the various
positions and argument. So, yeah,

997
01:22:30.319 --> 01:22:32.319
it's true that not everybody's going to
overnight accept it. So but I wouldn't

998
01:22:32.319 --> 01:22:36.760
worry too much about that because I
think over time, people if they're honest

999
01:22:36.800 --> 01:22:42.039
and since here they're going to come
to the right conclusions, they're going to

1000
01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.640
see the problems in the evolutionary narratives. So I wouldn't worry too much about

1001
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:49.960
trying to get them to immediately accept
the entire worldview. It's enough, I

1002
01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:58.319
think, to critique their basic presubpositions
and get them understanding that their materialistic atheist

1003
01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:01.800
narrative can't even do anything. It
can't give an account for ethics, knowledge,

1004
01:23:01.840 --> 01:23:04.560
metaphysics, You can't even make sentences
in that world be if they were

1005
01:23:04.600 --> 01:23:09.560
consistent. So if you could get
them thinking that, don't worry too much

1006
01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:13.920
about also trying to convince them immediately
the doction of creation. That'll come down

1007
01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:17.199
the road. But if you're debating
somebody specifically on the doction of creation,

1008
01:23:17.239 --> 01:23:23.760
there are philosophical arguments that you can
present, like pointing out the you know,

1009
01:23:23.840 --> 01:23:30.479
like if if the universe has always
just been here right, then there's

1010
01:23:30.479 --> 01:23:34.319
not really any good account for why
there's change or why there's movement at all.

1011
01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:40.079
So you could utilize some kinds of
arguments like that. I mean,

1012
01:23:40.279 --> 01:23:45.319
there are ways you can go about
critiquing It just depends on what specifically what

1013
01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:48.800
their position is like, are they
saying that no, it's the Big Bang,

1014
01:23:48.920 --> 01:23:53.359
or they saying no, it's the
universe was eas eternal, or there's

1015
01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:59.159
different philosophical routes you can take to
critique that. And you know, humans,

1016
01:23:59.199 --> 01:24:03.880
for example, happen to be constituted
such that they learn and experience things

1017
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:09.079
in beginning, middle, and end. So there is the structure to how

1018
01:24:09.119 --> 01:24:13.560
we learn things beginning, middle and
end. But if, for example,

1019
01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:17.560
the universe has always forever been here, then there's not actually a basis to

1020
01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:26.439
believe in the transcendental presupposition of time
right, which is beginning, which is

1021
01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:30.479
movement from past, present, future, beginning, middle end. You see

1022
01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:34.359
how there's a there's a structure there. And even in language, for example,

1023
01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:41.600
every linguistic communication is it moves from
beginning, middle, and end.

1024
01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:45.359
And you can show this philosophically.
There's actually some really good essays that show

1025
01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:50.880
the presuppositions the transiddle categories necessary for
language to be possible. And one of

1026
01:24:50.880 --> 01:24:55.920
those is the movement, a movement
and time from beginning, middle to end.

1027
01:24:55.960 --> 01:24:59.399
Every conversation that's meaningful has a beginning, middle, and and end.

1028
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:03.800
In fact, I think it's even
Alistair McIntyre, the famous virtue ethosist,

1029
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:12.960
He has a whole essay on the
patterns of every every linguistic communication event okay,

1030
01:25:13.279 --> 01:25:15.960
beginning, middle, and end.
So if there is no beginning,

1031
01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:18.279
middle, and end. Ever,
then we don't really have a basis to

1032
01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:21.680
believe in beginning, middle, and
in our conversations. And if our conversations

1033
01:25:21.680 --> 01:25:26.039
don't have beginning, middle, and
end, then everything is kind of illusory.

1034
01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:30.159
The movement, the change is illusory, you see. And some Eastern

1035
01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:34.359
philosophies go in that direction. But
maybe they believe in the Big Bang.

1036
01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:38.000
That's a different course of critique that
you could do. I mean, it

1037
01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:42.680
just depends on the atheist. You
need to know exactly what kind of an

1038
01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:46.319
atheist thing they're presenting, I think
to really critique it. Good, right,

1039
01:25:46.359 --> 01:25:49.600
Well, yeah, these are just
my moron friends. So it's it's

1040
01:25:49.640 --> 01:25:57.479
really not very difficult using your using
tag and other arguments. I've got them

1041
01:25:57.520 --> 01:26:00.319
to like be on the ropes with
their atheists view. But it's the actual

1042
01:26:01.279 --> 01:26:04.520
creation story itself that they always do. Well, that's really yeah, that's

1043
01:26:05.239 --> 01:26:10.239
defaultedness and say, well that can't
I can't believe anything else there because that

1044
01:26:10.279 --> 01:26:13.880
can't be true. That's I know, it's not really valid argument from their

1045
01:26:13.920 --> 01:26:15.119
side. Well, that's the thing, is right, So, I mean,

1046
01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:19.680
creation is not a doctrine of natural
theology. Creation is according to Hebrews

1047
01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:28.000
a doctrine of divine revelation creation X
Neilo is we know that not by speculation

1048
01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:30.119
deduction, but by divine revelation,
right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1049
01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:34.560
so yeah, I mean it's it's
like Saint Justin Popovich says, like,

1050
01:26:34.680 --> 01:26:41.680
you can't believe these things and truly
know these things without repentance because they're not

1051
01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:46.399
actually ultimately intellectual problems. You can
point out the intellectual problems and dilemmas,

1052
01:26:46.439 --> 01:26:51.840
but just knowing the problems aren't actually
enough to get people to change or to

1053
01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:57.520
get them to believe like they have
to repent. So that so this is

1054
01:26:57.520 --> 01:27:00.960
a radical position here that a lot
of people don't understand. They don't believe,

1055
01:27:00.039 --> 01:27:08.079
like man's problem is not intellectual,
it's moral. Yeah, anyway,

1056
01:27:08.159 --> 01:27:11.800
hopefully that's helpful, but it really
just you just gotta yeah, I just

1057
01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:15.359
gotta ask a lot of questions to
get the atheist guy to like lay out

1058
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:19.439
exactly what his worldview is, and
usually they'll just say a bunch of ridiculous,

1059
01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:26.560
contradictory nonsense. I got, let
me go t T put a little

1060
01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:30.560
music on. We'll keep going here
because we haven't even gone two hours yet.

1061
01:27:30.960 --> 01:28:53.479
But let me use the little girls
room and I'll be right backs spelling

1062
01:28:57.000 --> 01:29:23.439
and staying all right, I'm back. I had to go little girls room.

1063
01:29:23.560 --> 01:29:27.319
Hey, go T T. Jamie's
in there grinding up the coffee for

1064
01:29:27.479 --> 01:29:30.600
me. What's up? We got
still got four hundred people that we got

1065
01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:35.159
up to like five hundred. We
still got about four hundred over here,

1066
01:29:35.479 --> 01:29:43.560
so let's see. We got requests. Zach, next up? What's up?

1067
01:29:43.640 --> 01:29:56.600
Zach? Hey? Jakie here,
Yeah, hey, my So my

1068
01:29:56.720 --> 01:30:00.199
question, So I just came out
of the Protestant world and your your videos

1069
01:30:00.279 --> 01:30:03.600
and all that has been super helpful
to leading me to Orthodoxes. Just want

1070
01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:06.199
to say thank you for that.
I'm becoming more and more convinced but every

1071
01:30:06.279 --> 01:30:12.239
day. But my question is what
advice would you would you have for continuing

1072
01:30:12.279 --> 01:30:15.920
to interact with people in those heterodox
to worlds? Right, Because the more

1073
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:19.359
that I become convinced of Orthodoxy,
the more I realize that they're they're mutually

1074
01:30:19.439 --> 01:30:24.159
exclusive, right, these these are
two different religions, and so with people

1075
01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:26.479
I care about obviously I don't,
I mean, I care about the truth,

1076
01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:28.920
but like, how what advice would
you give on how to relate to

1077
01:30:29.039 --> 01:30:31.720
them and have conversations with them.
And yeah, I would say that,

1078
01:30:32.119 --> 01:30:38.439
um, tailor your discussions to the
people because you know them well. Don't

1079
01:30:38.479 --> 01:30:41.640
try to debate with your parents or
your family members or you're never going to

1080
01:30:41.720 --> 01:30:49.079
convince like a parent through argumentation and
logic. Try to influence them in subtle

1081
01:30:49.159 --> 01:30:54.800
ways. Um. If it's your
compatriots, people your age and you guys

1082
01:30:54.920 --> 01:30:58.199
like to debate, then have at
it, right, but just note note

1083
01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:00.800
the relation that you have to the
individual before trying to, you know,

1084
01:31:01.600 --> 01:31:05.720
engage at a confrontational level or whatever. If you're if it's your bros,

1085
01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:11.359
you know they can handle that.
Um. But I would also say that

1086
01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:15.640
although it's natural for us as we
work through these issues to want to debate

1087
01:31:15.720 --> 01:31:20.159
them a lot, don't go too
heavy into trying to debate them until you

1088
01:31:21.119 --> 01:31:27.039
spend a good amount of time in
catechy sis and learning the theology for a

1089
01:31:27.119 --> 01:31:30.439
few years, and then you know, you'll be a little more equipped because

1090
01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:33.920
you need to kind of go through
the process of you know, living this

1091
01:31:34.119 --> 01:31:36.640
and whatnot and being in the church
and being in the liturgy for a while.

1092
01:31:38.319 --> 01:31:44.479
Because at first you're going to be
you know, super zealous and you're

1093
01:31:44.520 --> 01:31:46.880
gonna be like, you know,
a new convert with that new convert zeal

1094
01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:51.199
But yeah, don't press up your
mom. Somebody said the chat exactly.

1095
01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:55.680
It's not gonna be. It's not
gonna get you anywhere. Um. And

1096
01:31:55.760 --> 01:31:59.479
then you're gonna encounter issues, right, You're gonna start having your problems in

1097
01:31:59.520 --> 01:32:01.239
the Orthodox such, you're gonna have
struggles with people. You're gonna have issues

1098
01:32:01.319 --> 01:32:08.600
with priests maybe you know who knows. But take your time and be really

1099
01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:10.760
slow about it, is what I
would say, Believe it or not.

1100
01:32:11.800 --> 01:32:19.079
That's my advice to that question.
But so, soul, did you want

1101
01:32:19.119 --> 01:32:21.119
to make another comment? By the
way, I wasn't trying to be rude.

1102
01:32:21.159 --> 01:32:26.199
I was just I was frustrated trying
to express what I was trying to

1103
01:32:26.279 --> 01:32:29.640
say. I wasn't mad at you. Oh you're fine, man. No,

1104
01:32:29.720 --> 01:32:30.840
I didn't take it. I didn't
take it a bad way at all.

1105
01:32:31.439 --> 01:32:33.880
Um. The guy brought up evolution
to you a second ago, and

1106
01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:38.880
I've had a thought on and I
wanted to run it past you. So

1107
01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:42.800
so I think it's al Kripke who
does the whole water is h two?

1108
01:32:42.840 --> 01:32:46.920
Oh thing are you familiar with like
the phillis? I'm not familiar with like

1109
01:32:47.079 --> 01:32:51.439
philosophical responses to that and stuff.
So I don't know a lot about Kripkey.

1110
01:32:51.479 --> 01:32:55.079
I mean, father Deacon would be
a better person. Who I mean,

1111
01:32:55.119 --> 01:32:58.279
he studied Saul Kripkey pretty in detail. But um so, no,

1112
01:32:58.399 --> 01:33:00.359
I don't know about this argument.
Okay, Well, I was just gonna

1113
01:33:00.399 --> 01:33:04.119
well, pretty much the gist of
it is, he says water is H

1114
01:33:04.239 --> 01:33:09.600
two oh, and then he uses
the law of identity to essentially say,

1115
01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:15.680
in a modal sense, that's true
across all possible worlds. So if there

1116
01:33:15.840 --> 01:33:18.720
is water in some other possible world, right, then it's H two oh.

1117
01:33:19.640 --> 01:33:24.800
And that's because you find that out. Since you find that out through

1118
01:33:24.840 --> 01:33:28.439
observation. You don't know that a
priori that water is H two oh.

1119
01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:30.439
Well, this sounds like the I
mean, I don't I don't know.

1120
01:33:30.600 --> 01:33:34.119
I didn't know Kripkey made this argument. But I've made the argument about you

1121
01:33:34.239 --> 01:33:39.600
know, just I would argue I've
argued against multiverse on the base of the

1122
01:33:39.640 --> 01:33:44.960
live identity. Yeah, I'm not
really talking about a multiverse though, I'm

1123
01:33:45.039 --> 01:33:48.319
just talking about the notion. I'm
just using possible world se Mannix to talk

1124
01:33:48.319 --> 01:33:51.399
about I know that you're not saying, I know you're not talking about multiverse.

1125
01:33:51.479 --> 01:33:55.560
I'm just saying that I'm familiar with
kind of what you're saying because of

1126
01:33:55.640 --> 01:33:59.880
the argument I've used against the multiverse. Okay, so I was one.

1127
01:34:00.039 --> 01:34:03.319
And if you think that you can
flip this onto evolution and say that like

1128
01:34:03.479 --> 01:34:09.960
something like a category like a dog, right is, you don't know everything

1129
01:34:10.000 --> 01:34:15.960
about a dog and dogs until you've
experienced many particulars amongst the community of dogs,

1130
01:34:15.159 --> 01:34:19.039
right, And so it seems like
you could almost use this to argue

1131
01:34:19.159 --> 01:34:27.239
that categories in general are the same
across possible world. Does that make sense?

1132
01:34:27.479 --> 01:34:32.680
Yeah? I think that when atheists
evolutionary materialists type people deny any kind

1133
01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:40.159
of actually existing classes of things,
that this would amount to some form of

1134
01:34:40.239 --> 01:34:44.680
denying some kind of law of identity. Right, I think? So is

1135
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:46.720
that what you're saying? Yep,
that's exactly No. I think I think

1136
01:34:46.720 --> 01:34:51.079
you'd absolutely absolutely make that argument.
I think, you know, and other

1137
01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:59.520
arguments similar to that kind of hinge
on nominalism. I mean, atheism is

1138
01:34:59.520 --> 01:35:02.000
pretty much nine percent committed to nominalism, and I mean it's kind of a

1139
01:35:02.039 --> 01:35:05.279
similar type of argument. It's not
law of identity, but it's saying,

1140
01:35:05.319 --> 01:35:09.520
well, there's no classes of things, there's no universals, then you're already

1141
01:35:09.640 --> 01:35:14.119
stuck basically in eventually the destruction of
knowledge as a whole. So yeah,

1142
01:35:14.119 --> 01:35:16.560
I think you could definitely go that
route. All right, sweet? Yeah,

1143
01:35:16.640 --> 01:35:20.560
good point, Peter. What's up? You want to make another comment?

1144
01:35:26.960 --> 01:35:30.079
All right? Can you hear me
again? Yeah? Cool? Are

1145
01:35:30.119 --> 01:35:35.840
you still taking like geopolitical type questions
today? Sure? Um, it's funny.

1146
01:35:35.880 --> 01:35:40.760
This was This is actually something I
was hanging out with my former priest's

1147
01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:45.960
son, who's like moderately red pills
you could say, like on the scale

1148
01:35:45.960 --> 01:35:47.520
of one to ten, like one
being the least tending the most, he's

1149
01:35:47.520 --> 01:35:50.199
like a six or seven. And
he was asking me, like, from

1150
01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:56.319
the perspective of like, you know, Klaus and company, why bugs?

1151
01:35:56.520 --> 01:36:00.439
Like why you know, why would
why? Specifically? I mean I get

1152
01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:02.800
and he gets like why you know
meat would be banned? You know,

1153
01:36:02.880 --> 01:36:08.880
like the rationale from their perspective,
but why but like why bugs? So

1154
01:36:09.359 --> 01:36:15.279
one solution to that is that a
lot of these celebrities and weirdos uh have

1155
01:36:15.520 --> 01:36:20.159
already put a lot of money into
the bug food companies, So there's a

1156
01:36:21.079 --> 01:36:27.560
gaming the market kind of racket involved
in this um and then more speculatively,

1157
01:36:27.720 --> 01:36:30.680
I think we could say it's also
kind of like a middle finger to the

1158
01:36:31.079 --> 01:36:35.600
to the working classes and to the
poor that you know, you know,

1159
01:36:35.680 --> 01:36:41.399
it's like it's like a temple of
doom when they get to the Indian village

1160
01:36:41.439 --> 01:36:45.600
and right, and and they're like
they're trying to give Willie Scott a bunch

1161
01:36:45.640 --> 01:36:48.479
of plate of bugs, and it's
like, uh, it's rubbing your face

1162
01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:51.840
in that kind of thing. Okay, Yeah, because I knew about um,

1163
01:36:53.079 --> 01:36:56.720
you know, all the big time
like celebrity investments and things like like

1164
01:36:56.840 --> 01:37:01.359
beyond meat impossible meat that wasn't But
those are more like you know, soy

1165
01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:06.520
you know, plant seed oil slop
as opposed to like from an actual insect.

1166
01:37:08.439 --> 01:37:11.359
Yeah, and I mean there could
be also you know, the Carson

1167
01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:17.680
Carson carstogen carcinogen effect, right,
definitely, which could relate to other more

1168
01:37:18.079 --> 01:37:23.760
malicious nefarious motives. Yeah, okay, cool, thanks, Yeah, a

1169
01:37:23.800 --> 01:37:32.359
good question. Uh, let's see, let's find somebody who has not come

1170
01:37:32.439 --> 01:37:44.760
on yet today by the boy tech. What's up dude? You just hit

1171
01:37:44.960 --> 01:37:47.840
mute? Hello? Hello, here
are good? Yeah, what's up?

1172
01:37:48.920 --> 01:37:53.119
Hey? Jay gould to speak to
you for the first time. Actually just

1173
01:37:53.279 --> 01:37:59.239
downloaded Twitter to uh ask you this
this question. All right, here we

1174
01:37:59.319 --> 01:38:02.439
go. So, um, yeah, I know whoops that allotted to better?

1175
01:38:02.880 --> 01:38:08.920
Um. So I know that us
as Christians with the fallowed to morality

1176
01:38:09.479 --> 01:38:13.039
by going to God. You know, he's the one that claims for morality.

1177
01:38:13.439 --> 01:38:18.439
But when I'm talking to my more
secular agnostics and atheist friends, there's

1178
01:38:18.439 --> 01:38:24.199
a difficulty to see good versus evil. So it might be a little bit

1179
01:38:24.239 --> 01:38:29.279
of a broad broad question. But
like what's is there any way, uh

1180
01:38:29.560 --> 01:38:33.039
that you explain, like how we
can clearly see good versus evil? Like

1181
01:38:33.119 --> 01:38:38.680
I have some radical ways, but
they're they're a little bit like like obvious

1182
01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:42.720
obvious examples, like that'd be crazy
if they agree to it. But like,

1183
01:38:42.920 --> 01:38:49.279
is there any uh discourses or explanations
that you give to like why we

1184
01:38:49.439 --> 01:38:55.239
can pretty much be starting for good
and evil in the world or what do

1185
01:38:55.359 --> 01:38:58.760
you, uh, what's your explanation
on that? How do you see it?

1186
01:38:59.159 --> 01:39:03.439
I mean, good seems to me
to be the most fundamental presubpositional category

1187
01:39:03.640 --> 01:39:06.920
necessary, right, the good.
If there's no such thing as the good,

1188
01:39:08.600 --> 01:39:13.720
then really all value judgments are impossible, they don't mean anything. So

1189
01:39:14.119 --> 01:39:18.399
there's got to be some kind of
objective good in a philosophical sense, not

1190
01:39:18.640 --> 01:39:24.720
just to have ethics, but to
make truth claims. I mean to say

1191
01:39:24.840 --> 01:39:29.920
that one thing is true versus not
true, or versus the false, necessarily

1192
01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:33.279
relates to the good because it means
there's a sort of an assumption there that

1193
01:39:33.359 --> 01:39:39.399
we ought to choose the true versus
the false. So I mean the good

1194
01:39:39.920 --> 01:39:45.039
like the true, These are such
fundamentally absolutely necessary, not just ethical but

1195
01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:55.039
epistemological and metaphysical categories that again,
all meaningful communication and human predication would be

1196
01:39:55.159 --> 01:39:59.600
impossible, and I say impossible in
the sense of being coherent, being meaningful,

1197
01:40:00.079 --> 01:40:03.640
being justified if there was no such
thing as the good. I mean

1198
01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:06.439
that to me is that that's like
a super very awesome way to put it,

1199
01:40:06.479 --> 01:40:10.680
because yeah, everything goes back to
like, hey, let's find truth,

1200
01:40:10.800 --> 01:40:13.600
let's find something that's actually practical.
Well, I mean, think about

1201
01:40:13.640 --> 01:40:21.359
all science. All science is predicated
on the search for verifiable correct theories and

1202
01:40:21.680 --> 01:40:29.000
data versus unverifiable false data. That's
the true versus the false. That's choosing

1203
01:40:29.239 --> 01:40:33.560
the right one versus the wrong one. So you can't actually separate science from

1204
01:40:33.600 --> 01:40:40.119
value judgments as much as they think
that they can. That is, that's

1205
01:40:40.119 --> 01:40:44.000
a fantastic way to explain it.
I love it. I'm gonna take a

1206
01:40:44.079 --> 01:40:46.279
note on it. And I have
a second last question for you. Okay,

1207
01:40:47.560 --> 01:40:53.239
So I come from a polygamist Mormon
background, right, and I disagree

1208
01:40:53.319 --> 01:41:00.520
obviously I disagree with their polygamist discussions, but you know they usually default to

1209
01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:02.960
like, oh, well, David
and Solomon had a bunch of concubine so

1210
01:41:03.439 --> 01:41:08.000
why can't I, as a man
of God also have them? How do

1211
01:41:08.079 --> 01:41:12.800
you respond to these things, because
like I mean, polygamy, polygamy doesn't

1212
01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:15.279
I mean, first of all,
like, yeah, you gotta be a

1213
01:41:15.319 --> 01:41:19.079
good man, which many men aren't. And this was David and Solomon,

1214
01:41:19.119 --> 01:41:24.920
Like what's your explanation? But yeah, I think that in the Old Old

1215
01:41:24.960 --> 01:41:30.479
Testament period, God tolerated a lot
of things in terms of morals and ethics

1216
01:41:30.680 --> 01:41:35.399
that he eventually wanted to kind of
pedagogically gradually lead people to not do anymore.

1217
01:41:35.960 --> 01:41:43.319
So, you know, slavery,
you know the sort of barbaric things

1218
01:41:43.359 --> 01:41:46.359
that we see that are into at
times tolerated. You know that many of

1219
01:41:46.359 --> 01:41:50.720
the Church fathers argue that that was
really God sort of gradually drawing man back

1220
01:41:50.800 --> 01:41:56.159
to the calling that is more like
what we see in Genesis. And so

1221
01:41:56.640 --> 01:42:02.319
Jesus's law that he lays down is
the restorative Eden law. Right, So

1222
01:42:02.399 --> 01:42:05.600
he's basically saying, let's let's go
back to this. This is going to

1223
01:42:05.680 --> 01:42:13.600
be the norm for the church because
that's what I originally had intended for Adam

1224
01:42:13.640 --> 01:42:16.680
and even the gardens. So the
church is the new Eden. It's the

1225
01:42:16.800 --> 01:42:21.560
restored Eden, so to speak.
And that's why, you know, you

1226
01:42:21.680 --> 01:42:28.119
have things that are tolerated but are
not the ideal situation. So it's true.

1227
01:42:28.159 --> 01:42:30.199
I mean there's other things too that
you know, we're tolerated in the

1228
01:42:30.239 --> 01:42:33.399
Old Testament period, like slavery that
we don't typically think are normative for the

1229
01:42:33.439 --> 01:42:38.760
New Testament period. Yeah, it
did, um, you know, not

1230
01:42:38.920 --> 01:42:43.800
condoning it, but it did make
sense back then because it was a completely

1231
01:42:44.600 --> 01:42:48.840
brutal, animalistic world where death or
survival, right, so like, and

1232
01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:53.159
everybody didn't know how to read,
most people, so it was more it

1233
01:42:53.279 --> 01:42:56.680
wasn't like how movies make it seem. It was more like servants, you

1234
01:42:56.760 --> 01:43:00.520
know, you did what the master
said, right, Yeah, obviously that's

1235
01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:03.439
a from in a more uneducated world. So that's how you you know,

1236
01:43:03.600 --> 01:43:10.000
used for pedagogically started progressing to a
more civilized state, right, exactly,

1237
01:43:10.199 --> 01:43:14.439
correct? All right, all right, I goes analogous to polygamy. Like

1238
01:43:14.920 --> 01:43:17.840
David and Solomon, they had concubines, you know, got allowed it,

1239
01:43:17.920 --> 01:43:24.560
but he's not promoting it to to
all these horny men you know that are

1240
01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:29.119
just making a mess out of out
of families out here. Yeah. I

1241
01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:31.960
mean again, there's other institutions in
the ancient world like that, like the

1242
01:43:32.079 --> 01:43:39.680
slave trade, that you know,
couldn't immediately be completely revolutionized, right,

1243
01:43:39.920 --> 01:43:45.439
and so I think that that's why
there's a gradual pedagogical uh leading of men

1244
01:43:46.479 --> 01:43:56.520
to a higher calling so to speak. Eve Monarca, what's up? Hello?

1245
01:43:57.840 --> 01:44:01.119
Yep, Yeah, So I had
all I wanted to talk about the

1246
01:44:01.399 --> 01:44:06.279
Muslims worshiping the same God a home
with Catholic Yeah, so how would you

1247
01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:12.680
all them differ? So in Acts
seventeen, when Paul says that on one

1248
01:44:12.680 --> 01:44:18.680
of their altars they they worship God
would held on them. They worship God

1249
01:44:18.920 --> 01:44:24.279
even though they don't know about him, Right, that doesn't prove that doesn't

1250
01:44:24.359 --> 01:44:28.399
prove natural theology, though in the
Roman Catholic sense, because Paul says that

1251
01:44:29.359 --> 01:44:31.479
in one sense you know the true
God, but in another sense you don't

1252
01:44:31.560 --> 01:44:36.720
know him. So the statue that
he's pointing to is the one that they

1253
01:44:36.840 --> 01:44:42.319
don't know. And the irony is
that you're that's the one that's the true

1254
01:44:42.359 --> 01:44:45.560
God, the one that you don't
know. So it's actually an argument against

1255
01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:49.079
natural theology. And you'll notice in
that chapter Paul doesn't say anything like what

1256
01:44:49.199 --> 01:44:53.840
a Roman Catholic proponent of natural theology
would do. He doesn't say, look,

1257
01:44:53.880 --> 01:44:56.720
we all have a common idea of
God, we all believe in one

1258
01:44:57.039 --> 01:45:01.680
ultimate source. We all believe in
the teleological argument, the cosmological argument.

1259
01:45:01.760 --> 01:45:06.079
There's nothing in that chapter or in
Romans One at all like the way that

1260
01:45:06.279 --> 01:45:12.880
Roman Catholics go about doing. They're
so called natural theological apologetic. Paul preaches

1261
01:45:12.960 --> 01:45:18.399
the resurrection and he says, the
word Jesus is near your hearts. The

1262
01:45:18.520 --> 01:45:23.720
word is near your hearts. How
is that That's not possible? In Roman

1263
01:45:23.800 --> 01:45:29.600
Caloic natural theology, the logos,
the word Jesus is not near anybody's hearts

1264
01:45:29.840 --> 01:45:33.159
in the Roman Catholic system. In
fact, the Roman Catholic system doesn't believe

1265
01:45:33.239 --> 01:45:40.279
in the heart the noose. The
Orthodox system does believe in the heart or

1266
01:45:40.319 --> 01:45:44.880
the noos. It's a specifically Orthodox
doctrine. So everything in that passage is

1267
01:45:44.960 --> 01:45:54.439
completely Orthodox and absolutely not Roman Calviic
natural theology. You win the statement one.

1268
01:45:54.479 --> 01:46:01.439
It says that the Muslims worship what
do we worship? Do we worship

1269
01:46:01.520 --> 01:46:04.880
an absolutely simple Unitarian thing? Or
do we worship the Trinity? Who is

1270
01:46:04.920 --> 01:46:12.039
God? Yeah? No, I'm
asking you who is it? Okay?

1271
01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:15.840
Right, so it is not.
So let's say, between Basil and Eunomius,

1272
01:46:15.920 --> 01:46:18.800
do they worship the same God?
I don't know that much about church

1273
01:46:18.920 --> 01:46:24.159
history. Okay. So Eunomius is
a radical Unitarian Rian. Do they worship

1274
01:46:24.199 --> 01:46:28.479
the same God according to Basil?
I don't know. I don't know what

1275
01:46:28.560 --> 01:46:31.479
Basil said about that. Okay,
So he wrote a famous book against the

1276
01:46:31.520 --> 01:46:38.159
Eunomians. So no, the Kappadocians
fight their whole life against Eunomians. Yeah,

1277
01:46:38.199 --> 01:46:44.479
okay. Eunomianism is pretty similar to
Islam. Okay. So would we

1278
01:46:44.680 --> 01:46:48.760
argue that Basil and Unomius believe in
the same God because they both believe in

1279
01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:56.000
monotheism of course not. Yea ergo
between a Mouslim and an Orthodox person.

1280
01:46:56.439 --> 01:47:02.079
There's no common God. I'm taking
the perspective from Paul says like, this

1281
01:47:02.279 --> 01:47:05.760
God whom you worship without knowing is
the one I'm telling you about. And

1282
01:47:05.840 --> 01:47:10.279
they were polytheists. You know they
had crazy gods? Did you? Did

1283
01:47:10.319 --> 01:47:12.800
you not hear what I said?
He's saying, the one that you don't

1284
01:47:12.880 --> 01:47:16.840
know is the true God. You
don't know him. Yeah, but it

1285
01:47:16.880 --> 01:47:21.600
says they worshiped him. They have
a statue to an unknown God. And

1286
01:47:21.760 --> 01:47:26.560
the Pagans did this just in case. Doesn't mean that they know God.

1287
01:47:27.399 --> 01:47:30.239
They do not have a saving knowledge
of God. It's like Paul, for

1288
01:47:30.359 --> 01:47:35.680
polytheist even says that they worship the
one God that we um that Paul worship.

1289
01:47:35.680 --> 01:47:40.279
Do you not hear what I said? No, I see what you're

1290
01:47:40.279 --> 01:47:43.439
saying. You did about him?
They like, why about him? That?

1291
01:47:44.520 --> 01:47:47.720
What's the name of the God of
the Old Testament? No? In

1292
01:47:47.840 --> 01:47:54.119
the passages with the statute the unknown
God? Okay? So is he know

1293
01:47:55.920 --> 01:47:59.079
no? Okay, so then they
don't worship the same god is Paul.

1294
01:48:00.359 --> 01:48:03.680
Yeah, but paulse is saying that
they worship him without knowing. So it's

1295
01:48:03.680 --> 01:48:08.720
like their knowledge is faulty, just
like in Islam, but they still worship

1296
01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:14.079
him. So again, yeah,
you could say in a sense they do.

1297
01:48:14.239 --> 01:48:15.880
In a sense they don't. But
the point of the passage is that

1298
01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:20.359
you don't know the true God,
but he's near you, even in your

1299
01:48:20.399 --> 01:48:25.840
hearts. And you're saying that um
vaticant who makes it out to be like

1300
01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:29.800
they do know all they do?
Don't do know? Vatican two says the

1301
01:48:30.119 --> 01:48:34.319
Muslims together with us worship the One
True God. Yeah, they don't.

1302
01:48:34.439 --> 01:48:40.520
That's different from what Paul saying when
he says you worship this God. I

1303
01:48:40.600 --> 01:48:45.920
mean, I've just illustrated this to
you with Basil and the Eunomians. Yeah,

1304
01:48:46.439 --> 01:48:50.680
did you not understand it? I
understand it because you don't know they're

1305
01:48:50.760 --> 01:48:58.039
lying about they don't know him,
lying about his name. It's not look

1306
01:48:58.119 --> 01:49:00.520
so in one sense there's a knowledge, in another sense there's not. Right,

1307
01:49:00.720 --> 01:49:06.319
So if I if I say uh, if I say, um,

1308
01:49:08.880 --> 01:49:11.720
let's say somebody doesn't know me,
but they've heard about me, right,

1309
01:49:12.720 --> 01:49:15.720
or they know that there's a guy
on the internet who makes these arguments,

1310
01:49:15.840 --> 01:49:19.039
right, and they might know a
few things about me, Right, does

1311
01:49:19.079 --> 01:49:23.640
that mean that they know me.
No, No, I'm awesome. I'm

1312
01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:27.479
not arguing that they know they know
God, because it's true, they're really

1313
01:49:27.520 --> 01:49:31.439
far from that, you know.
But um, it's equivalenting, well,

1314
01:49:31.479 --> 01:49:34.800
how do you worship something you don't
know? I mean, Paul said that

1315
01:49:34.840 --> 01:49:38.600
they were worshiping something that they don't
know. You know, again, you

1316
01:49:38.600 --> 01:49:41.119
don't understand that. It's a use
of irony, right, So he's saying

1317
01:49:41.199 --> 01:49:45.680
that you have a statue to an
unknown God, and he's saying, ironically,

1318
01:49:46.159 --> 01:49:51.279
that's the one I'm telling you is
the true God. Yeah, yeah,

1319
01:49:51.319 --> 01:49:54.720
I know. No, you don't
because you're not listening to what I

1320
01:49:54.800 --> 01:49:58.760
said. So you're basically telling me
that you know me as and Basil worship

1321
01:49:58.840 --> 01:50:03.800
the same God. I'm I don't
know about that specifically. You don't understand

1322
01:50:03.840 --> 01:50:11.479
the analogy to what I'm to to
this. Yeah, yeah, I'm I

1323
01:50:11.560 --> 01:50:14.399
see what you're saying, because they
have a completely different idea of God that

1324
01:50:14.439 --> 01:50:21.640
they're appealing to. Okay, so
some commonalities don't equate to same referent right,

1325
01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:28.239
So let's take monotheism. For un
orthodox Christian, monotheism refers to the

1326
01:50:28.319 --> 01:50:38.279
Trinity. Okay, for a Muslim
Monotheism is exclusive and not trinitarian. So

1327
01:50:38.439 --> 01:50:43.279
the fact that they both have the
same referent Monotheism does not equate to in

1328
01:50:43.399 --> 01:50:46.840
any way the same God or the
same reference because there's some overlap because they're

1329
01:50:46.920 --> 01:50:53.880
mutually exclusive categories and systems. Does
that make sense? I agree that it's

1330
01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:58.520
not like um, the knowledge of
God isn't there. But I'm just trying

1331
01:50:58.560 --> 01:51:00.479
to draw a parallel. You know, where it to you worship him without

1332
01:51:00.560 --> 01:51:04.119
knowing in Acts seventeen. Yeah,
and you're saying that they do know him.

1333
01:51:06.800 --> 01:51:10.840
The point of the passage is that
you don't know him. Yeah,

1334
01:51:11.119 --> 01:51:14.560
but also says that they worshiped him. That I mean, but they worship

1335
01:51:14.680 --> 01:51:17.199
what they don't know. So you
keep saying this point it doesn't matter.

1336
01:51:17.840 --> 01:51:26.000
That doesn't equate to Orthodox and Muslims
having the same God. Do you not

1337
01:51:26.159 --> 01:51:30.640
see why? No? I understand
that there's like, in one way they

1338
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:34.800
worship him, but in another way
they're completely wrong. And I don't think

1339
01:51:34.840 --> 01:51:41.760
that Vatican too says anywhere that they
know all about him or that they're fine

1340
01:51:41.800 --> 01:51:46.840
because Muslims and Christians do not worship
the same God at all. Because of

1341
01:51:47.279 --> 01:51:51.880
you understand, you're you're making a
mistake because you think that because there's some

1342
01:51:53.000 --> 01:51:57.079
overlap, it's the same reference when
it doesn't matter. If we if we

1343
01:51:57.199 --> 01:52:00.760
had if a Muslim believed in nine
out of ten attributes of God that we

1344
01:52:00.920 --> 01:52:06.199
do, and one of those attributes
is that God has triune, that's enough

1345
01:52:06.239 --> 01:52:11.640
to make it mutually exclusive. They're
not the same. So how would you

1346
01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:15.840
differ on that from the Greeks having, you know, hundreds of gods and

1347
01:52:15.960 --> 01:52:19.439
Paul saying that they worship him as
this God that he's trying to tell them

1348
01:52:19.439 --> 01:52:30.079
about. It doesn't matter whether it's
polytheism or unitarianism. But Paul uses the

1349
01:52:30.159 --> 01:52:32.760
claim that they have like mutual worship. You worship him, I worship you

1350
01:52:32.840 --> 01:52:38.239
know. It's not it doesn't matter. It's not acceptable worship, right,

1351
01:52:38.640 --> 01:52:42.079
Yeah, And so Vaticanto doesn't say
true worship. It just says now,

1352
01:52:42.159 --> 01:52:45.840
actually it does. It says that
Hindus also love God. Yeah, but

1353
01:52:45.920 --> 01:52:50.000
they don't say it's true. It
says Hindus love God. It says that

1354
01:52:50.159 --> 01:52:55.600
Hindus have a an acceptance with God
based on their Hindu faith. It says

1355
01:52:55.640 --> 01:53:00.760
that in nostratt Yeah, and you
just keep saying yeah and no, they

1356
01:53:00.800 --> 01:53:05.359
don't. There's only Hinduism isn't too
far from what the Greeks were doing.

1357
01:53:05.520 --> 01:53:09.760
And this is correct. All said
to the Greeks that they were worshiping him.

1358
01:53:09.800 --> 01:53:14.199
But you don't know about him.
You can't worship what you don't know.

1359
01:53:14.560 --> 01:53:17.039
The point of the passage is that
you're blinded, and its irony.

1360
01:53:18.159 --> 01:53:21.119
You don't understand that. You just
keep going back to the word worship,

1361
01:53:21.279 --> 01:53:25.000
as if that means that they know
him and they worship the same God as

1362
01:53:25.119 --> 01:53:27.800
us. They don't know why.
No, I don't think that they know

1363
01:53:27.960 --> 01:53:31.359
him. I think then the worship
doesn't do anything. That's the point.

1364
01:53:31.560 --> 01:53:34.399
Yeah, I mean you could say, like the worship, I don't know

1365
01:53:34.880 --> 01:53:39.319
how God sees their worship and what
sends it at all. But but we

1366
01:53:39.479 --> 01:53:43.840
do know that because of the example
that I gave with the Unitarians. It

1367
01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:47.920
doesn't matter whether it's monotheism or polytheism. It doesn't matter because the only acceptable

1368
01:53:47.960 --> 01:53:53.640
worship is of the trying God.
You can't worship. Listen, let me

1369
01:53:53.680 --> 01:53:57.399
give an ex illustration of what I'm
trying to say. If I say I

1370
01:53:57.560 --> 01:54:00.840
believe in one God and you say
I also believe in one God and let's

1371
01:54:00.840 --> 01:54:04.840
say your God is the Trinity,
My god is the one God that is

1372
01:54:04.920 --> 01:54:12.039
Satan. We both worship one god. Do we then worship the same god?

1373
01:54:14.640 --> 01:54:19.159
Obviously? Not? There you go. And so now you're just gonna

1374
01:54:19.159 --> 01:54:21.279
say, I see what you're saying, then repeat your same point for the

1375
01:54:21.319 --> 01:54:26.720
twenty time. I won't repeat it
anymore because, um, I mean,

1376
01:54:26.720 --> 01:54:30.920
you pretty explain explain you, you
know, explain your position. So if

1377
01:54:30.000 --> 01:54:32.960
I did it. So let's say
let's say you're the god that has the

1378
01:54:33.039 --> 01:54:38.520
one God that's Satan, okay,
and I'm the one God that's the Trinity.

1379
01:54:39.439 --> 01:54:44.640
And we're having a dialogue, and
I say, I'm going to illustrate

1380
01:54:44.720 --> 01:54:48.760
to you in your theism that your
system is dumb. And I say,

1381
01:54:49.439 --> 01:54:56.000
this one god that you call Satan, that is Jesus, not Satan,

1382
01:54:56.760 --> 01:55:00.600
and you worship him without knowing him. What you're grasping after for Satan is

1383
01:55:00.680 --> 01:55:06.000
actually fulfilled in Christ. That is
what Paul's doing to the to the polytheists.

1384
01:55:06.560 --> 01:55:13.399
Okay, do you see you are
grasping for Jesus because you want an

1385
01:55:13.479 --> 01:55:19.039
ultimate power. As a Satanist,
even though it's worshiping Satan, you're ultimately

1386
01:55:19.119 --> 01:55:24.560
grasping for Jesus without knowing it.
You don't know Jesus. That is what

1387
01:55:24.680 --> 01:55:28.840
Paul's doing. He's not saying that
we all worship the same God because there's

1388
01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:34.600
common terms. All of natural theology
is built on the word concept fallacy that

1389
01:55:34.720 --> 01:55:39.359
because there's common terms, we all
worship the same reference. It's a very

1390
01:55:39.479 --> 01:55:48.920
simple silly mistake. Yeah, I
would just distinguished worshiped from belief and whatever.

1391
01:55:49.279 --> 01:55:54.199
It doesn't matter saving worship knowledge.
It doesn't matter. Man, whatever

1392
01:55:55.119 --> 01:55:57.720
I'm I'm getting frustrated, apologize.
I'm not mad at you. It's just

1393
01:55:58.960 --> 01:56:01.760
like can be will not understand this, It's not that hard. Let's give

1394
01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:08.720
an easier example. A Mormon says, I believe in Jesus, I believe

1395
01:56:08.760 --> 01:56:11.680
in Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. I believe the same thing as

1396
01:56:11.720 --> 01:56:15.960
you Orthodox Trinitarian, No, you
don't. Just because you have the same

1397
01:56:16.039 --> 01:56:24.239
words does not mean the reference is
the same. It's no different than the

1398
01:56:24.319 --> 01:56:33.880
mistake when people say the Old Testament
God is Eloheim. The Canaanites said,

1399
01:56:34.199 --> 01:56:39.720
l Therefore the Old Testament God is
a Canaanite God. This is a really

1400
01:56:39.800 --> 01:56:46.600
simple silly mistake. It's a grammatical
mistake. Word concept fallacy word referent The

1401
01:56:46.760 --> 01:56:56.159
same word can refer to different things. Likewise, in theology, you can't

1402
01:56:56.239 --> 01:57:02.760
have seven of God's attributes and throw
out three of them right and say it's

1403
01:57:02.800 --> 01:57:08.399
the same reference. This is not
that difficult people, Can you understand?

1404
01:57:08.920 --> 01:57:14.960
Okay, let's say that there's Let's
say that there's ten key attributes of God

1405
01:57:15.079 --> 01:57:19.800
just for the sake of argument,
and all of those attributes are necessary such

1406
01:57:19.960 --> 01:57:25.720
that I can't deny one of the
divine attributes and still have the same God

1407
01:57:25.760 --> 01:57:29.399
a reference. For example, I
believe in all of God's attributes, but

1408
01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:33.079
not omnisciance. Okay, if you
deny omniscians, then it's no longer the

1409
01:57:33.119 --> 01:57:38.399
same God. It doesn't matter that
you have nine of the ten attributes.

1410
01:57:38.880 --> 01:57:44.399
Okay, it doesn't matter. There's
no scale of Well, I got ninety

1411
01:57:44.439 --> 01:57:46.640
percent of God's attributes, so I
have a ninety percent God. Do you

1412
01:57:46.680 --> 01:57:54.119
see how dumb this is. It's
a system, mutually exclusive system such that

1413
01:57:54.760 --> 01:58:01.039
the system of Islam that is unitarian
does not overlap with the system of Orthodox

1414
01:58:01.119 --> 01:58:06.399
trinitarianism. They're mutually exclusive systems.
It doesn't matter that there are overlaps.

1415
01:58:08.239 --> 01:58:12.840
Will you believe in God's omniscience trinitarian. I believe in God's omniscience as a

1416
01:58:12.920 --> 01:58:18.560
Muslim. Therefore it's the same God. No, it isn't anymore than Basil's

1417
01:58:18.640 --> 01:58:25.159
Trinitarian God is the same God as
Eunomius, as unitarian God, which also

1418
01:58:25.359 --> 01:58:29.439
uses the words father, son,
and spirit. Guys, this is very

1419
01:58:29.520 --> 01:58:33.640
simple. All of natural theology is
built on this. How can you not

1420
01:58:33.760 --> 01:58:42.119
see that this is a problem.
This is silly. It does not matter

1421
01:58:42.239 --> 01:58:45.119
if there's the same words. What
matters is the referent, not the words.

1422
01:58:48.920 --> 01:58:51.960
Don't you think that when we translate
the Bible into some other language,

1423
01:58:53.720 --> 01:58:57.439
is it suddenly a different God because
it's a different word, of course,

1424
01:58:57.560 --> 01:59:02.159
not the Aluit word for trinity.
It doesn't matter what that word is,

1425
01:59:02.760 --> 01:59:08.840
because it's the reference that matters.
As a Trinitarian, when I reference the

1426
01:59:08.920 --> 01:59:12.199
Trinity with the word t r I
and I t y, it's the same

1427
01:59:12.319 --> 01:59:16.399
thing that the Alouette when he says
uga whatever is referencing the Trinity. The

1428
01:59:16.640 --> 01:59:24.800
words can change the reference, doesn't
It's simple grammatical stuff, And so many

1429
01:59:24.920 --> 01:59:29.239
people imagine the stupid bait and switch
that the Roman Catholic system is built on.

1430
01:59:29.279 --> 01:59:33.199
This bait and switch in Vatican too
and nostraate. And by the way,

1431
01:59:33.239 --> 01:59:35.079
that guy's like, no, it
doesn't say that, doesn't say yes,

1432
01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:41.960
it does say that. Let's get
Vatican too out. Let's see what

1433
01:59:42.039 --> 01:59:50.000
it says. Does the Roman Catholic
Church believe with Hindus that Hindus worship and

1434
01:59:50.079 --> 01:59:55.880
love the same God that we do. Yes, and the Muslims yes Nostraate

1435
01:59:56.159 --> 02:00:04.640
Paragraphs two and three. The Church
has reverence for the Muslims. They worship

1436
02:00:04.920 --> 02:00:13.479
quote capital G God. This is
the basis of Roman Catholic natural theology,

1437
02:00:13.760 --> 02:00:20.239
an ecumanism with the Muslims clear as
day us your interpretation. This is supposed

1438
02:00:20.239 --> 02:00:27.479
to be the interpretation. Do we
need an interpretation of the interpretation of the

1439
02:00:27.520 --> 02:00:34.439
interpretation. The Church has a high
regard for Muslims. No, it doesn't.

1440
02:00:35.079 --> 02:00:43.840
Muslims are a horrible Antichrist system that
persecutes the Church. The Muslims worship

1441
02:00:43.960 --> 02:00:46.920
the one True God capital G.
No, they don't, because the one

1442
02:00:46.960 --> 02:00:51.199
true God is Father's Son and Spirit. There is no generic Unitarian God.

1443
02:00:51.800 --> 02:00:57.720
And all of you Roman Catholics are
lying to yourselves when you act like you

1444
02:00:57.800 --> 02:01:02.840
don't have to accept this. When
you're poet creates a giant three building Abu

1445
02:01:02.960 --> 02:01:12.159
Dhabi faith center to the monotheistic God. That's not the Trinity. It's all

1446
02:01:12.279 --> 02:01:18.800
in your face. So stop lying
to yourself. The Muslims worshiped the same

1447
02:01:18.920 --> 02:01:28.880
God that Abraham worshiped, No they
don't. Abraham worshiped the triad. And

1448
02:01:29.239 --> 02:01:34.279
as it says right here, Hindus
approach God in love and faith. No

1449
02:01:34.439 --> 02:01:42.479
they don't. Hinduism is a horrible
demonic system and it does not allow you

1450
02:01:42.600 --> 02:01:48.439
to approach God in love and faith. Stop lying to yourselves about you the

1451
02:01:48.680 --> 02:01:55.239
very actions of your papacy for the
last sixty years, seventy years, tell

1452
02:01:55.319 --> 02:02:11.840
you what your church believes about these
religions. All right, we got a

1453
02:02:11.960 --> 02:02:29.600
huge stock of people here, newo
logion. I'm mute, all right,

1454
02:02:29.960 --> 02:02:35.920
moving on? Hey, hey,
yep, hey, thank you. Uh

1455
02:02:36.119 --> 02:02:41.079
sorry, I was struggling too a
mute there. Hey, So, um,

1456
02:02:41.560 --> 02:02:43.479
I want to first of all,
thank you for what you just said,

1457
02:02:43.520 --> 02:02:45.680
because actually I was part of what
I wanted to cover. I read

1458
02:02:45.760 --> 02:02:49.640
no strat recently. I've just been
making my way through the documents that you

1459
02:02:49.760 --> 02:02:55.119
suggest people to read, like Sadi's
called Nidum Vatican one, no straw I

1460
02:02:55.199 --> 02:02:58.680
feel like what happens is a lot
of a lot of Catholics just don't read

1461
02:02:59.319 --> 02:03:03.199
the course of the magisterium that they
defend. Absolutely, yeah, tell me

1462
02:03:03.239 --> 02:03:08.479
about it, um so. Yeah. But what I wanted to talk to

1463
02:03:08.520 --> 02:03:12.880
you about is I wanted to ask
your opinion on some thoughts I had.

1464
02:03:12.960 --> 02:03:18.880
I listened to actually re listened to
Lofton and Aiken's talk on theistic evolution and

1465
02:03:19.199 --> 02:03:27.079
how how it's basically like a totally
legitimate opinion uh in within Catholicism and it's

1466
02:03:27.319 --> 02:03:32.840
magisterially I guess rubber stamped or yeah, jumani generis or whatever by Pisah exactly,

1467
02:03:32.920 --> 02:03:36.279
and there's a lot more than just
humani generis to the Aiken was bringing

1468
02:03:36.359 --> 02:03:39.960
up stuff I had never heard about. So I was what I mean,

1469
02:03:40.039 --> 02:03:43.520
it's already, by the way,
is you know, verified by them,

1470
02:03:43.600 --> 02:03:46.319
and they're proud of it. Yeah. I mean, this is the undoing

1471
02:03:46.560 --> 02:03:53.800
of uh Romans five and Romans eight, because Romans eight's very clear that all

1472
02:03:54.000 --> 02:03:57.560
death, decay, and corruption entered
as a result of Adam Sin. All

1473
02:03:57.600 --> 02:04:00.239
of those people posit that there is
death or to the fall about him,

1474
02:04:00.520 --> 02:04:03.479
by the way, that's condemned in
the in the cannons of the Sixth Council,

1475
02:04:03.600 --> 02:04:10.279
So they actually are condemned by the
Sixth Council. Yes, And they

1476
02:04:10.319 --> 02:04:14.199
always just resort to, like there
was a part where Aikin says, I

1477
02:04:14.359 --> 02:04:17.840
think within my lifetime there should be
some kind of clarification and resolution, and

1478
02:04:17.880 --> 02:04:23.760
they're they're always resorting to like some
future time when some future statement of some

1479
02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:27.119
future pope is going to make everything
clear and it's all going to make sense

1480
02:04:27.680 --> 02:04:32.159
despite Yeah, because they worship being
completely irresolvable. They're not like and not

1481
02:04:32.319 --> 02:04:35.279
things you could just have a pope
write something about and suddenly it's all going

1482
02:04:35.319 --> 02:04:39.479
to make sense. Yeah, I
mean the whole religion is the worship of

1483
02:04:39.520 --> 02:04:43.840
authority and faith in uh, you
know, the papacy fixing things or doing

1484
02:04:43.920 --> 02:04:46.359
something better in the future, and
it's it's all a man worship. And

1485
02:04:46.840 --> 02:04:50.279
yeah, Jimmy Aikin, by the
way, we played the clips a while

1486
02:04:50.319 --> 02:04:54.920
back, he's like defending, Oh, Nestorius actually wasn't a heretic. Yeah,

1487
02:04:54.960 --> 02:04:58.399
well so Jimmy Aikin's a heretic,
so avoid heretics. So that's all

1488
02:04:58.439 --> 02:05:00.840
I say stuff from them. Yeah, but specifically what I wanted to ask

1489
02:05:01.000 --> 02:05:05.920
your comments about is Uh there's a
point where he mentions Dave Verbum, which

1490
02:05:05.920 --> 02:05:09.960
I have not read, but I
think you're probably familiar with it, and

1491
02:05:10.119 --> 02:05:15.279
he brings up a point about Dave
Verbum where, Uh, what's what's taught

1492
02:05:15.399 --> 02:05:21.359
in that document about the interpretation of
scripture is that the author's assumptions don't need

1493
02:05:21.680 --> 02:05:27.199
uh well, okay, the way
he phrases it is that what's inspired are

1494
02:05:27.319 --> 02:05:32.399
the author's assertions and not his assumptions. So when Peter is writing about the

1495
02:05:32.479 --> 02:05:39.079
flood and he's assuming that it was
a global flood, that isn't necessarily inspired,

1496
02:05:39.479 --> 02:05:45.119
but his assertion or the symbolic um, the symbolic value of the statement

1497
02:05:45.199 --> 02:05:49.000
he's making is the inspired part.
And I'm just I mean, that's that's

1498
02:05:49.000 --> 02:05:54.640
actually it. But in my mind, this just completely destroys exegises completely.

1499
02:05:54.720 --> 02:05:58.039
Absolutely. If you're if you're gonna
read the Old Testament in that way,

1500
02:05:58.760 --> 02:06:02.279
you're just you're just going to be
I mean, the things that the author

1501
02:06:02.319 --> 02:06:08.760
assumes are part of tradition obviously,
so you're you're completely cutting down half half

1502
02:06:08.880 --> 02:06:12.159
or more of tradition. That really
anyway, I just wanted to hear what

1503
02:06:12.279 --> 02:06:16.640
you have to say on that on
Dave Averbum specifically in that uh exegetical methodology,

1504
02:06:16.640 --> 02:06:21.199
because this is actually right. I'm
glad you said that, great point,

1505
02:06:21.319 --> 02:06:26.960
loved it. This is actually one
of the things that modernists propose,

1506
02:06:28.239 --> 02:06:30.960
the modernists of the late eighteen hundreds
early nineteen hundreds in the Roman Calgary Church,

1507
02:06:31.039 --> 02:06:36.159
we're proposing just precisely these kinds of
splits and divisions, and so that

1508
02:06:36.680 --> 02:06:45.680
allowance for the modernist exegesis based on
higher critical studies, that's actually completely undermining

1509
02:06:45.720 --> 02:06:48.680
of the whole position of Biblical theology, absolutely one percent. And the irony

1510
02:06:48.800 --> 02:06:55.960
is that those kinds of modernist positions
were already condemned in Lamentabili and in Pious

1511
02:06:56.000 --> 02:07:00.239
the tense documents, right, So
Pious the Tense Pachendi condemns these types of

1512
02:07:00.279 --> 02:07:04.399
presupositions of the modernists, and Lamentabili
has a specific section. Uh. There's

1513
02:07:04.439 --> 02:07:10.079
also the Syllabus of Errors that has
a specific sections on um errors in terms

1514
02:07:10.119 --> 02:07:15.079
of interpretation of scripture, and so
it might not use the explicit we're wording

1515
02:07:15.159 --> 02:07:17.399
of Dave Verban, but obviously what
Dave Dave Verban's is saying, which is

1516
02:07:17.399 --> 02:07:23.880
about it an two document right about
inspiration interpretation of scripture? Right, obviously

1517
02:07:23.920 --> 02:07:27.479
it is saying that you can't divorce
these two things. I mean, it

1518
02:07:27.479 --> 02:07:30.199
would lead to all kinds of absurdity. And by the way, how could

1519
02:07:30.199 --> 02:07:35.680
you This is like deconstructionism or something
like, how do you divorce Peter's worldview

1520
02:07:35.920 --> 02:07:41.399
from what he's writing? This is
crazy and and there's no there's nothing that

1521
02:07:41.439 --> 02:07:46.199
tells you, by the way,
where the delineating line is, so,

1522
02:07:47.279 --> 02:07:55.119
like, what what is it?
Where's the line between Peter's theological errors,

1523
02:07:55.159 --> 02:08:00.960
because that's what it would amount to, theological cosmological errors and the exact writing

1524
02:08:01.000 --> 02:08:03.960
of his texts. Right, And
by the way, where does this come

1525
02:08:03.000 --> 02:08:09.239
from? What church father ever said? That there's a division between the potentially

1526
02:08:09.399 --> 02:08:15.399
erroneous presuppositions that Peter has of his
worldview versus what he actually wrote down.

1527
02:08:15.720 --> 02:08:18.640
It's all just invented. And this
again, this is why all of these

1528
02:08:18.720 --> 02:08:22.039
people, all the Roman Catholics,
all the people that you hear that they

1529
02:08:22.079 --> 02:08:26.399
don't even they can't think through these
things because they're deluded. This is what

1530
02:08:26.640 --> 02:08:35.239
delusion does. It's a strong delusion, and they don't even see that this

1531
02:08:35.720 --> 02:08:43.439
totally undermines what Romans eight says about
the cosmology of the universe. Paul says

1532
02:08:43.479 --> 02:08:48.119
in Romans eight that all death,
all decay, all corruption is a result

1533
02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:52.319
of Adam and Eves and prior to
that Satan, Satan's fall, in an

1534
02:08:52.359 --> 02:08:58.159
Abnea's fall, you can't have millions
of years of death before Adam's fall.

1535
02:08:58.680 --> 02:09:03.880
It does it undoes the cosmological scope
of christ redemption. And that's why these

1536
02:09:03.920 --> 02:09:07.399
heretics don't believe in recapitulation. Every
one of these people, as a heretic,

1537
02:09:07.479 --> 02:09:13.119
could denies recapitulation because you can't believe
in recapitulation without what I'm saying,

1538
02:09:13.800 --> 02:09:18.199
without the idea that Adam and Eve
brought all forms of deathca corruption. They

1539
02:09:18.239 --> 02:09:24.680
don't understand that the cosmic scope of
the fall is the presupposition of the cosmic

1540
02:09:24.760 --> 02:09:30.600
scope of Christ's incarnation and redemption.
It's not simple, and that's why their

1541
02:09:30.640 --> 02:09:35.239
heretics. Yeah, and they do
the exact same thing with even papal documents,

1542
02:09:35.319 --> 02:09:41.159
like when it comes to the issue
of fatal communion. The ones that

1543
02:09:41.760 --> 02:09:46.960
like who actually have read Quam SINGULARI
know that Pious the tenth called not giving

1544
02:09:48.199 --> 02:09:52.279
not communing children a new practice.
He literally uses those words, and they'll

1545
02:09:52.359 --> 02:09:56.279
just straight up deny that he's right
about that. He'll they'll they'll just be

1546
02:09:56.399 --> 02:10:01.640
like, well, the historical part
of his cyclical isn't infallible, but the

1547
02:10:01.760 --> 02:10:07.600
right I mean, it's just constantly
making these arbitrary distinctions, and it's like,

1548
02:10:07.079 --> 02:10:09.800
all right, on what basis?
I mean, these people have not

1549
02:10:09.880 --> 02:10:13.720
read Sidi's Cognitum, because if they
did, then they'd know, like the

1550
02:10:15.239 --> 02:10:20.079
whole encyclical binds your conscience. Yea, whether it's a cathedral or ordinary magic

1551
02:10:20.119 --> 02:10:24.000
hereim, it doesn't matter. You
can't just deny that what what a pope

1552
02:10:24.119 --> 02:10:28.960
is saying about a historical truth is
right is not true. Yeah, um,

1553
02:10:30.920 --> 02:10:33.399
well, thank you, Jay.
I also want to mention that I

1554
02:10:33.520 --> 02:10:37.199
read M. Paul Williams book Operation
Glad You. I recently finished it on

1555
02:10:37.239 --> 02:10:41.960
your recommendation. I thought it was
fantastic. Yeah, thanks man, really

1556
02:10:41.000 --> 02:10:46.800
great comments. Awesome, thank you
so much. No LOGI on great comments.

1557
02:10:46.880 --> 02:10:52.720
Yeah, there you go. Track
cat honest with himself, sees where

1558
02:10:52.760 --> 02:10:56.920
it leads, saw the conclusions and
realize the track cats don't read their own

1559
02:10:56.960 --> 02:11:01.600
documents. If they did, they
would see those Alexander Harris. What's up

1560
02:11:03.079 --> 02:11:05.399
by the way before we go to
Alexander, hold on, if your second,

1561
02:11:05.159 --> 02:11:11.960
if you would for a second,
pavl cocheck cochick check a chick.

1562
02:11:13.039 --> 02:11:16.600
One dollar. Let's see who the
first victim was, brad counter five dollars.

1563
02:11:16.720 --> 02:11:20.640
Can you talk about the rosary in
its history? So the rosary is

1564
02:11:20.119 --> 02:11:26.199
not something that I would advocate for
um it's it's usually pretty bound up with

1565
02:11:26.960 --> 02:11:31.079
Roman Catholic doctrine of imaginative prayer,
and we don't do that in Orthodoxy.

1566
02:11:31.159 --> 02:11:33.840
I'm sorry, it's not part of
the Orthodox tradition. And the Western right

1567
02:11:33.880 --> 02:11:37.079
people that want to import the Rosary, I think it's a bad idea,

1568
02:11:37.520 --> 02:11:41.039
So we don't want it in there. You don't need it. Bowie three

1569
02:11:41.199 --> 02:11:43.840
eight three three eight, Thank you
for all your work. Thank you so

1570
02:11:45.000 --> 02:11:48.359
much, Bowie. Cute little Gandolf
That's what I'm talking about. Hot sexy

1571
02:11:48.439 --> 02:11:54.039
little gandolfs. Can you share your
critique of John Locke and classical liberalism.

1572
02:11:54.039 --> 02:11:58.560
I have many podcasts that I've done
critiques of classical liberalism. You can go

1573
02:11:58.640 --> 02:12:03.039
back to the old podcast with Tim
Kelly. You can do that. You

1574
02:12:03.079 --> 02:12:05.119
can look at the critique I did
of Jordan Peterson from six years ago.

1575
02:12:07.880 --> 02:12:09.960
I've done that so many times.
It's just sort of like, how many

1576
02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:16.960
times you have to do it.
I feel like you blame liberalism for everything.

1577
02:12:18.199 --> 02:12:20.600
You hear me blame liberalism. I
don't know what do you mean by

1578
02:12:20.640 --> 02:12:24.520
liberalism classical liberalism? I don't know
what you mean. Do I blame liberalism

1579
02:12:24.600 --> 02:12:28.600
for everything? I don't typically do
that. I blame the fall for for

1580
02:12:28.760 --> 02:12:37.079
everything, not liberal quote liberalism.
We drifted away from decentralized government. Yeah,

1581
02:12:37.119 --> 02:12:41.119
I mean, this is just the
narrative that you believe from the Enlightenment

1582
02:12:41.239 --> 02:12:46.359
propagandists who have told you that you
know, Adam Smith and David Ricardo and

1583
02:12:46.479 --> 02:12:50.600
John Locke and all these goobers are
sort of like the final word, and

1584
02:12:50.760 --> 02:12:56.920
you understand that those people work for
British East India Company and private corporations who

1585
02:12:56.159 --> 02:13:03.880
became the next enslavers and the next
tyrants. So you just believe a myth

1586
02:13:05.279 --> 02:13:09.239
of the Enlightenment. I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, and I'm happy to debate

1587
02:13:09.279 --> 02:13:13.960
any libertarian. In fact, I
think we did. I debated the first

1588
02:13:13.960 --> 02:13:16.279
debate ever did was cocash, and
the first half of the debate was theism.

1589
02:13:16.359 --> 02:13:20.640
And then the second half was I
think classical liberalism. I've asked all

1590
02:13:20.760 --> 02:13:24.880
kinds of classical liberals to come and
do debates, and they just typically won't

1591
02:13:24.880 --> 02:13:28.279
do it. Now, we did
do that debate with Robert Taylor, like

1592
02:13:28.399 --> 02:13:31.520
five or six years ago. We
did two or three debates with him.

1593
02:13:31.560 --> 02:13:39.920
Actually, Dave Smith. I tried
to get Dave Smith to do a debate.

1594
02:13:39.399 --> 02:13:41.920
He wouldn't do it, or just
didn't see my tweets or something or

1595
02:13:41.960 --> 02:13:45.520
whatever. I don't know. I'm
not dissing him. I'm just saying that

1596
02:13:46.239 --> 02:13:50.600
any libertarian wants to come to a
debate, it's open floor. Reach out

1597
02:13:50.720 --> 02:13:54.079
to me. I'm very easy to
get a hold of on Twitter. Majority

1598
02:13:54.119 --> 02:13:58.359
in twenty dollars On the question of
existence of grace outside the church, how

1599
02:13:58.399 --> 02:14:03.960
do we define grace outside the church
versus divine providence? Again, at the

1600
02:14:03.079 --> 02:14:07.279
last twom, I think it's either
thirteen or fifteen. A maximist talks about

1601
02:14:07.800 --> 02:14:11.840
the mode of the spirit's presence outside
the church. So again, if there's

1602
02:14:11.840 --> 02:14:16.399
no grace outside the church, we
would never come to the church. Of

1603
02:14:16.479 --> 02:14:20.800
course, there's grace. Grace,
Paul says, the word is near you

1604
02:14:20.880 --> 02:14:24.800
even in your hearts to the Pagans. That does not mean they're saved.

1605
02:14:24.640 --> 02:14:31.800
So divine providence is a grace,
yes, But the Holy Spirit worked on

1606
02:14:31.119 --> 02:14:35.800
Cornelius's heart before he was in the
church. There's nothing wrong with that.

1607
02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:41.239
Doesn't mean that they're saved as pagans. Not saying that. Does it mean

1608
02:14:41.359 --> 02:14:46.319
that the Roman Catholics have the eu
Christ either, not saying that. Justinian's

1609
02:14:46.399 --> 02:14:48.039
right ten dollars. I got into
a discussion and debate with the guy at

1610
02:14:48.039 --> 02:14:52.520
work. He brought up salvation and
said he believed in solifide. I said,

1611
02:14:52.600 --> 02:14:56.640
you are in a Baptist sect that
is based on dialectical philosophy and not

1612
02:14:56.760 --> 02:15:03.600
historic Christianity. Is that a good
bait tactic or move? Yeah? I

1613
02:15:03.680 --> 02:15:07.720
mean if that's a fact, and
if you know your buddies enough with the

1614
02:15:07.800 --> 02:15:11.159
guy that you can, you know, just sort of lay it out that

1615
02:15:11.319 --> 02:15:13.239
bluntly, then yeah, I think
that's a great move. Why not?

1616
02:15:13.520 --> 02:15:16.640
I mean, isn't that a fact? If he's a Baptist, dude,

1617
02:15:16.920 --> 02:15:22.840
then Baptists, you know, date
from basically the Radical Reformation. Where were

1618
02:15:22.880 --> 02:15:26.119
the Baptists in the year of seven
hundred? Where were the Baptists at the

1619
02:15:26.199 --> 02:15:31.079
Council of Nicia. They weren't there
because they didn't exist. Elevate xxx ten

1620
02:15:31.159 --> 02:15:35.840
dollars. What's your opinion on John
MacArthur. I don't have a lot of

1621
02:15:37.840 --> 02:15:43.600
positive things to say about any quasi
Calvinist self appointed Bible teacher, so I

1622
02:15:43.680 --> 02:15:48.119
think John MacArthur is a heretic.
Kevin Farrell ten dollars. Watch this video

1623
02:15:48.239 --> 02:15:50.399
when you're done. It will freak
you out, and then you have a

1624
02:15:50.439 --> 02:15:54.439
link. Maybe I'll check it out, but then again, who knows what

1625
02:15:54.520 --> 02:15:58.000
you've sent, so I don't know
if I want to check it out.

1626
02:15:58.079 --> 02:16:03.319
Christen five dollars. Great job deflecting
on that guy's neuro linguistic programming. We

1627
02:16:03.479 --> 02:16:07.279
hate to see you get hypnotized on
stream. Yeah, that's halfway a joke

1628
02:16:07.319 --> 02:16:09.880
when I talk about the like,
I know that the people calling in and

1629
02:16:11.039 --> 02:16:15.119
saying my name over and over and
over are not actually doing NLP. But

1630
02:16:15.239 --> 02:16:20.159
that actually is an NLP technique,
right, You people do to do a

1631
02:16:20.239 --> 02:16:22.760
lot of like politicians go and study
how to do NLP and they learn all

1632
02:16:22.800 --> 02:16:28.000
this nonsense. So I'm halfway joking, but I just think it's dumb when

1633
02:16:28.039 --> 02:16:31.959
people are like Jay Jay. Look, look bro Jay Jay Jay, Look

1634
02:16:33.079 --> 02:16:37.280
Jay Jack, I'm like, what
why are you repeating my name? Like

1635
02:16:37.799 --> 02:16:41.639
I'm the We're the only two people
here. There's no other possible person that

1636
02:16:41.680 --> 02:16:43.840
you like you're talking to me.
You don't have to keep saying my name.

1637
02:16:43.879 --> 02:16:46.600
I'm here, dude. Oh look
at that Junior Gallows since two hundred

1638
02:16:46.600 --> 02:16:50.600
dollars, he's winning the super chat
competition today. Thank you so much.

1639
02:16:50.239 --> 02:16:56.639
It's a massive stream killing super Chat. Thank you so much. Roll Steaks

1640
02:16:56.680 --> 02:16:58.559
ten dollars. Spent a long time
since we've seen some of these classic names.

1641
02:17:00.040 --> 02:17:01.799
Good to see you guys there.
Thank you for the string killing it

1642
02:17:01.799 --> 02:17:07.520
as usual. I love all the
six Sticky note maxing. Keep us in

1643
02:17:07.600 --> 02:17:09.959
your viewers and your prayers. We'll
keep me in your prayers. I need

1644
02:17:09.040 --> 02:17:13.000
your prayers. Riga nine, thank
you so much. Fake in Gray five

1645
02:17:13.079 --> 02:17:18.920
dollars, Thank you so much.
Who's up next? That would be me?

1646
02:17:20.120 --> 02:17:26.159
Hey man, how's it going,
soub dude? So I just tuned

1647
02:17:26.159 --> 02:17:28.520
into the stream and then came over
here to Twitter. At the end of

1648
02:17:28.559 --> 02:17:35.680
your discussion about Vatican Two's basically all
religions are approximating the same God and then

1649
02:17:35.280 --> 02:17:39.360
talking more specifically about to being worship
the same God as the Muslims and the

1650
02:17:39.479 --> 02:17:45.760
Jews, and so I wouldn't at
all agree with the vatic into kind of

1651
02:17:45.840 --> 02:17:48.600
language. And I don't come from
it in the sense of trying to justify

1652
02:17:48.760 --> 02:17:54.319
any kind of Catholic document, but
I do. I am of the opinion

1653
02:17:54.399 --> 02:17:56.520
that at least the Jews and the
Muslims worship the same God. And I

1654
02:17:56.600 --> 02:17:58.639
know you don't think that, but
I want to at least state my case

1655
02:17:58.719 --> 02:18:01.680
and and see if you can try
and dissuade me. Okay, I will

1656
02:18:01.719 --> 02:18:07.079
let you state your case, but
let's rewind real collect so before we do

1657
02:18:07.200 --> 02:18:11.399
that, though, do you profess
to be some sort of Christian? No,

1658
02:18:11.799 --> 02:18:16.719
No, I'm not Orthodox, and
so well hold on. And do

1659
02:18:16.799 --> 02:18:22.479
you profess to be some Christians in
reality and faith? No? So are

1660
02:18:22.520 --> 02:18:24.319
you agnosis? I don't have baptism, I don't have chrismation. Sorry,

1661
02:18:24.360 --> 02:18:28.159
are you agnostic? Well I don't
understand. No, No, Ideologically I

1662
02:18:28.280 --> 02:18:33.040
agree with Orthodox Christianity. Yeah,
and so God willing hold on, I'll

1663
02:18:33.040 --> 02:18:35.280
be Orthodox, Okay, I mean
it's just not the reality yet. Okay,

1664
02:18:35.559 --> 02:18:41.000
fair enough, so go ahead,
um so, And one of the

1665
02:18:41.360 --> 02:18:46.319
big things that I think I use
this reference for justifying at least I'm gonna

1666
02:18:46.360 --> 02:18:50.520
argue the Jewish case, and then
by extension, if Jewish radical Unitarianism as

1667
02:18:50.600 --> 02:18:54.440
it's known today could be Um could
be also the same God that we worshiped,

1668
02:18:54.479 --> 02:18:56.239
and I think it would extend to
Islam. But we can we can

1669
02:18:56.319 --> 02:19:01.360
argue that that release And I'll just
talk about the Jewish case. In Saint

1670
02:19:01.440 --> 02:19:05.120
Justin Martyr's writings in his first Apology, he talks about how God appeared to

1671
02:19:05.200 --> 02:19:11.280
Moses and is explaining to the Caesar
that the Jews have a confusion between the

1672
02:19:11.399 --> 02:19:15.360
Father and the Son when the Angel
of the Lord appears at the burning bush.

1673
02:19:16.079 --> 02:19:20.000
And I think the way that Justin
Martyr couches this in context is that

1674
02:19:20.120 --> 02:19:24.399
the Jewish God, even in this
conception, is a close stuff approximation to

1675
02:19:24.559 --> 02:19:28.799
say that their confusion is classified as
heresy but not idolatry, and heresy being

1676
02:19:30.239 --> 02:19:37.360
an approximation of the correct referent that
that does not fit every characteristic necessary for

1677
02:19:37.479 --> 02:19:46.280
it to be Orthodox, but not
lacking enough qualities to be referring to some

1678
02:19:46.639 --> 02:19:50.239
other subject, some other God,
or some other delusion. Yeah, but

1679
02:19:50.000 --> 02:19:54.440
hold on, So an orthodox go
ahead, An Orthodox theology. I understand

1680
02:19:54.440 --> 02:19:56.559
where you're going with that, but
Orthodox theology. Ultimately, this doesn't really

1681
02:19:56.639 --> 02:20:03.799
matter because if you look at John
Damascus's uh heresiology, how does he classify

1682
02:20:03.920 --> 02:20:07.159
all the heresies or excuse me,
how does he classify all the world religions

1683
02:20:07.399 --> 02:20:15.040
I don't know as heresies? So
ultimately this doesn't really matter. Okay.

1684
02:20:15.079 --> 02:20:18.760
So you would say that that,
according to that heresie, idolatry are essentially

1685
02:20:18.799 --> 02:20:22.440
the same thing, and that there
isn't really a distinction there Ultimately, yes,

1686
02:20:22.280 --> 02:20:26.040
okay. So would the implications of
that be that all Catholics, even

1687
02:20:26.120 --> 02:20:31.520
though they profess the Creed because they
use the Philioquay, would be idolatris and

1688
02:20:31.680 --> 02:20:35.520
heretics absolutely okay, No, cool, that just clarifies your position. Um,

1689
02:20:37.159 --> 02:20:41.239
oh could you no? I guess
okay, if you can cite Saint

1690
02:20:41.280 --> 02:20:43.280
John Damascus, right, that's given
me a lot. Yeah. So if

1691
02:20:43.319 --> 02:20:46.639
you look at the I mean,
what does Saint Gregor Palamas say in the

1692
02:20:46.760 --> 02:20:50.200
Treatise on the Appodicted Treatise on the
Holy Spirit. He says that the Roman

1693
02:20:50.280 --> 02:20:56.280
Catholics have listened to Satan in their
heresy on the Philioquay, and they've confused

1694
02:20:56.399 --> 02:21:00.040
nature in person and that thus that's
lead that leads them to their doctor and

1695
02:21:00.200 --> 02:21:05.959
have created grace. Absolutely, But
to say that's the same thing as worshiping

1696
02:21:05.000 --> 02:21:09.879
a different god, it is,
and he's no hold on. So in

1697
02:21:09.000 --> 02:21:18.879
orthodox listen and orthodox theology, heresy
is ideolotry. It's a delusion of worshiping

1698
02:21:20.079 --> 02:21:24.680
a conceptual thing that is not the
correct reference. Now that doesn't mean that

1699
02:21:24.719 --> 02:21:28.719
everybody, everybody that has anything wrong
is automatically a damned heretic. Heresy is

1700
02:21:28.719 --> 02:21:33.520
a specific sin. You're correct to
say. It is a specific sin of

1701
02:21:33.280 --> 02:21:39.360
willful error and persisting in that error. So that's why we don't call everybody

1702
02:21:39.600 --> 02:21:45.600
necessarily a heretic per se. But
John Damascus can also basically classify all of

1703
02:21:45.680 --> 02:21:50.000
the world religions all the way back
to the original idolatry in Genesis when Man

1704
02:21:50.120 --> 02:21:56.159
fell. He says that all of
the pagan religions basically derive as a heresy

1705
02:21:56.319 --> 02:22:01.280
from the original worship of the Trinity
in the garden. Okay, well,

1706
02:22:01.280 --> 02:22:05.280
that was really helpful about distinguishing the
willful push systems apart, because I think

1707
02:22:05.040 --> 02:22:09.680
maybe that addresses the other objection that
I was going to bring which was that.

1708
02:22:09.040 --> 02:22:13.040
I mean, for for every layman
in the Orthodox Church to assume that

1709
02:22:13.079 --> 02:22:18.639
they have a perfect understanding of the
trendy whenever they worship is like a little

1710
02:22:18.719 --> 02:22:22.000
much to ask. Yeah. And
also I don't have a problem saying that.

1711
02:22:22.120 --> 02:22:24.920
You know, Justin Martyr, even
though he's a saint, you know,

1712
02:22:26.719 --> 02:22:28.680
they can get things wrong and they
can have sometimes have bad arguments.

1713
02:22:28.719 --> 02:22:31.479
A lot of the apologists of that
period. In fact, his disciple,

1714
02:22:31.639 --> 02:22:37.520
I think Tatian right, Tatian became
the total heretic. So just because Justin

1715
02:22:37.600 --> 02:22:41.120
Martyr made this or that argument or
whoever, like individual church fathers can make,

1716
02:22:41.319 --> 02:22:45.520
you know, bad arguments, sou, I don't have a problem saying

1717
02:22:45.600 --> 02:22:48.040
it out. Well, that's a
bad argument. So well, thank you

1718
02:22:48.120 --> 02:23:13.520
Jay. Yeah, good questions,
Togo. Well, I might to remind

1719
02:23:13.559 --> 02:23:15.879
you guys, if you had a
head over to chalk dot com. At

1720
02:23:15.959 --> 02:23:20.399
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1728
02:23:48.360 --> 02:23:50.719
Read the papers and their views and
see. If you don't think that

1729
02:23:50.840 --> 02:23:54.120
I'm right, you're gonna see everybody
loves it. Um. Also, I

1730
02:23:54.159 --> 02:23:58.120
would say, if you want to
get recurring subscriptions, use the promo goo

1731
02:23:58.200 --> 02:24:01.239
J five three Life. That's J
five three. If you want to see

1732
02:24:01.319 --> 02:24:05.920
us live, We'll be doing a
live event in Hollywood at Van Nuys Airport.

1733
02:24:07.120 --> 02:24:09.600
That's a there's a giant hangar.
Basically it's not the airport, but

1734
02:24:11.319 --> 02:24:13.280
we'll be doing an event with Jamie
Kennedy. It's gonna be a lot of

1735
02:24:13.360 --> 02:24:20.479
fun. It's a mix of the
absurd with philosophy with real information. Expose's

1736
02:24:20.600 --> 02:24:22.840
great stuff. There's the tickets.
Sign up now, don't wait, go

1737
02:24:22.879 --> 02:24:26.920
ahead and get your tickets now.
It's not worth waiting until the last minute.

1738
02:24:26.600 --> 02:24:28.799
Um, what's it's winding down on
that? So I get your tickets.

1739
02:24:28.879 --> 02:24:33.760
Also, if you want to sign
up for the Orthodox Italy Pilgrimage.

1740
02:24:33.200 --> 02:24:37.159
We're gonna be doing a full on
pilgrimage in Italy. You can go to

1741
02:24:37.479 --> 02:24:43.479
my website and you're under every post
you'll see the links for the for the

1742
02:24:43.559 --> 02:24:48.719
show or seeing me for the for
the pilgrimage. What's up, man?

1743
02:24:48.760 --> 02:24:54.040
Go ahead? Hello? You hear
me? Yep? Okay, sorry,

1744
02:24:54.520 --> 02:25:03.280
um, I just have a question
about bro. You're going into the Haunted

1745
02:25:03.360 --> 02:25:07.040
House the basement. You're going into
the basement of the hunted House. What's

1746
02:25:07.120 --> 02:25:20.559
up, man? That's fine,
it's fine, go ahead. I can't

1747
02:25:20.559 --> 02:25:24.959
hear you, dude, you're you're
you're roboting, man. Try to come

1748
02:25:26.000 --> 02:25:28.200
out and come back in. By
the way, somebody said we could see

1749
02:25:28.200 --> 02:25:31.520
all your contacts on your phone.
You're not seeing the contacts, dude.

1750
02:25:31.559 --> 02:25:35.000
You're seeing the people that are in
line in the quay to come on.

1751
02:25:35.799 --> 02:25:43.639
You're not seeing contacts, secret information. Good spoozing? Uh, I don't

1752
02:25:43.680 --> 02:25:48.360
know. Let's do let's do one
more. Is there anybody who wants to

1753
02:25:50.600 --> 02:25:56.799
bring on some disagreements Stephen Young?
This looks like somebody who wants to debate.

1754
02:25:56.159 --> 02:26:09.200
Let's see. Hell yeah, what's
up? Hey? Man? Um?

1755
02:26:09.840 --> 02:26:13.760
So I'm a Catholic. Um,
it's like a kind of a recent

1756
02:26:13.879 --> 02:26:20.079
convert and I just had a couple
of questions. So I've been considering Orthodoxy

1757
02:26:20.239 --> 02:26:26.200
now for just like a couple of
months, and my biggest concern is about

1758
02:26:26.360 --> 02:26:33.920
the divine Simpleton view versus the essence
entergy is distinction, And Catholics keep telling

1759
02:26:33.959 --> 02:26:37.319
me to look at Scotism as if
it's some kind of like a compromise.

1760
02:26:37.639 --> 02:26:41.600
Could you tell me more about that? Yeah? So, I mean the

1761
02:26:41.760 --> 02:26:45.959
issue what they're misunderstanding is that the
issue of can you mute, dude,

1762
02:26:46.000 --> 02:27:01.000
please meet bro? Mute? Oh
yeah, So the issue is not merely

1763
02:27:01.040 --> 02:27:05.719
a matter of the status of the
distinctions between the attributes, right, So

1764
02:27:05.799 --> 02:27:09.520
the idea that this is only a
question of the relationship of God in his

1765
02:27:09.600 --> 02:27:16.040
simplicity to the multiplicity of attributes is
a fundamental misunderstanding of the scope of this

1766
02:27:16.280 --> 02:27:22.159
issue. It's also an issue that
relates directly to Christology, because the Energy's

1767
02:27:22.200 --> 02:27:26.239
doctrine, if you read John Damascus
in book three, is immediately applied to

1768
02:27:26.360 --> 02:27:30.479
Christology. Two wills and two energies, and the energies in Christ in his

1769
02:27:30.639 --> 02:27:37.920
incarnate state are necessary to understand the
multiplicity of His actions as incarnate. You

1770
02:27:37.079 --> 02:27:41.680
see. So it's not just a
matter of distinctions in trinity or God proper.

1771
02:27:43.159 --> 02:27:46.639
It's also crucial to understanding the reality
of Christ incarnate in his two Wills

1772
02:27:46.680 --> 02:27:52.840
and two energies. The essence energy
distinction is specified and hammered out, not

1773
02:27:52.120 --> 02:27:58.000
ultimately in Trinitarian theology, but in
Christology, and Roman Calitic theology is deficient

1774
02:28:00.120 --> 02:28:05.040
also in Christology. Now that's not
because they don't give verbal credence to the

1775
02:28:05.120 --> 02:28:07.879
Sixth Council. They do, but
they don't really understand that theology of the

1776
02:28:07.959 --> 02:28:11.959
Sixth Council, nor is it really
relevant to their system as a whole.

1777
02:28:11.719 --> 02:28:16.360
And the reason for that is that
they if it was, they would understand

1778
02:28:16.479 --> 02:28:20.239
that the six Council is not just
about speculations of energies. It's about how

1779
02:28:20.280 --> 02:28:28.159
we participate in God. You cannot
have a real, coherent doctrine of transubstantiation

1780
02:28:28.520 --> 02:28:35.159
or of the real presence without the
energies. Ephesus and Saint Cyril make clear

1781
02:28:35.239 --> 02:28:41.319
as day that the presence of Christ
in the Eucharist is the uncreated energies plural,

1782
02:28:41.680 --> 02:28:46.799
that's what you partake of. So
Roman Catholic theology has dogmatized that what

1783
02:28:48.040 --> 02:28:56.000
you partake of in grace is a
supernatural accident in the soul, a created

1784
02:28:56.239 --> 02:29:01.000
accident in the soul. Supernatural created
accident in the soul. That is impossible

1785
02:29:01.959 --> 02:29:11.280
with Orthodox theology. It's impossible with
the Eucharist. Cyril says in the Two

1786
02:29:11.360 --> 02:29:15.799
Letters to sixth Senses that what we
partake of in the Eucharist is the uncreated

1787
02:29:15.879 --> 02:29:20.879
glory that the Logos transmitted to his
human nature. Because what you partake of

1788
02:29:20.000 --> 02:29:26.520
in the Eucharist is the deified flesh
of Christ, deified by the uncreated energies.

1789
02:29:26.079 --> 02:29:33.319
You can't be deified by creation.
So they've missed that. The essence,

1790
02:29:35.639 --> 02:29:41.520
even in the Palomite debates, is
not about theoretical distinctions or the theology

1791
02:29:41.600 --> 02:29:46.520
proper of the Trinity. It's about
participating in the Logos, participating in uncreated

1792
02:29:46.639 --> 02:29:52.040
energy. Scodism doesn't solve, that
doesn't answer, that doesn't deal with that.

1793
02:29:54.200 --> 02:29:58.600
Palamas is very clear in the debate
with barlium assume of acodynos and barlium,

1794
02:30:00.559 --> 02:30:05.280
the dialogue with the Barlammite that the
key issue is about participating. If

1795
02:30:05.360 --> 02:30:09.360
you don't have the uncreated energies doctrine
distinct from the essence. You don't have

1796
02:30:11.280 --> 02:30:15.760
a doctrine of participation that makes any
sense. Are you eating the divine essence

1797
02:30:15.959 --> 02:30:22.440
when you eat the Eucharist Roman Catholics, it's already defined. A ephicis what

1798
02:30:22.559 --> 02:30:31.000
you're eating Allah Cyril the uncreated immortal
glories. And Cyril says that is not

1799
02:30:31.159 --> 02:30:37.719
the essence, that means essence,
energy distinction Roman Catholics. But you don't

1800
02:30:37.760 --> 02:30:41.879
read those things. You don't read
Cyril, you don't read emphasis, you

1801
02:30:41.920 --> 02:30:45.559
don't read what's in the sixth Council, and so you don't even know that

1802
02:30:45.639 --> 02:30:48.799
what I'm telling you is fundamental to
all of these things. So it doesn't

1803
02:30:48.879 --> 02:30:54.040
matter. It wouldn't matter if a
Roman Caloic theologian said, I believe in

1804
02:30:54.120 --> 02:31:01.120
a real distinction between the divine attributes. It's not a matter of do you

1805
02:31:01.239 --> 02:31:07.120
have room for a school of philosophy
within Roman Catholicism's umbrella that allows for believing

1806
02:31:07.159 --> 02:31:11.200
in real distinctions and attributes. It
doesn't matter. It's not a theoretical question.

1807
02:31:13.040 --> 02:31:18.239
It's an actual praxis question about what
we participate in, and that has

1808
02:31:18.319 --> 02:31:26.319
to be uncreated energy, and that's
already defined and so Rome has already departed

1809
02:31:28.040 --> 02:31:35.920
from this doctrine by dogmatizing that the
grace that we get is a supernatural creature.

1810
02:31:37.639 --> 02:31:41.040
That's heresy. All right, thank
you guys, a lot of fun

1811
02:31:41.079 --> 02:31:46.280
today. We're gonna call it a
day. Everybody, have a good evening

1812
02:31:46.479 --> 02:31:50.680
and a lot of fun today.
We only had like one or I think

1813
02:31:50.680 --> 02:31:54.120
we only had one troll, right, we didn't. We didn't hit our

1814
02:31:54.840 --> 02:31:58.239
two troll limit that we expected,
but that's okay.