1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,559 Is connected from the liturgical celebration of the community. So for us, it 2 00:00:04,599 --> 00:00:10,640 doesn't make any sense to have eucharistic adoration divorced from the actual full on liturgical 3 00:00:10,679 --> 00:00:15,279 service. And that's why there's so many things that what trad cats think is, 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,879 you know, quote trad cat Catholicism is actually just a Latin medieval or 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:26,960 a post Tridentine development. The ancient Church didn't do that because they didn't separate 6 00:00:27,199 --> 00:00:34,000 communion or the reverencing of the gifts from the entire liturgical celebration, which includes 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 the entire community. Yeah, all right, well thanks for you all. 8 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:46,320 I mean, are you are you aware that like that didn't occur in the 9 00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:50,479 first thousand years? Oh yeah, no, obviously is a development within the 10 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,600 church. But see us Roman Catholics, we would see that as completely valid 11 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:59,079 as a part of this beautiful process that the God has burned into place. 12 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:04,079 How is theology a process when we're told in the Canons of the ancient Councils 13 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:11,239 that theology is not a process that doesn't evolve, It doesn't evolve, But 14 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,680 we discover, like we you know, the trinity, for instance, wasn't 15 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,840 formally defined instantly, right, So you think the Trinity is a discovery. 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,519 Yeah, we Yeah, so it wasn't. So it wasn't taught in the 17 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Old Testament. It wasn't defined. Nobody did define it in that way. 18 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,599 So so something is not the case until it's discovered and defined. Well, 19 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,280 we're not aware of it until that happens. Right, How did then, 20 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,840 how did how did the New Testament writers argue the Trinity from the Old Testament? 21 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:46,680 Well, so they didn't. That's the thing I mean. You're saying 22 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,680 that the New Testament writers didn't argue the deity of the of Christ and the 23 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,280 duty to Holy Spirit from the Old Testament. They argued the elements of it, 24 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,560 but they didn't actually argue the full How can you arget take definition of 25 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:04,719 it? How can you argue the elements? You understand that the dogmatic definitions 26 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,919 are just explicating what's there. Sure that they help us understand it more fully? 27 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:14,319 Right, And the point is we didn't actually understand No, wait a 28 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,280 minute, that's you said discovery. That's different than understanding it fully. Well, 29 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,840 you're discovering more about it, right, So again, the New Testament 30 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:29,280 writers argue the Trinity from the Old Testament. How does Justin Martyr argue against 31 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:32,960 Tripho. Well, I mean, I'm not as well read as you on 32 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:37,080 that side, but well, hold on, so this is this is pretty 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,240 well. Hold on, this is pretty important for the history of Trinitarian theology. 34 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:43,879 I would think you would know that since you're arguing for the development of 35 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,919 doctrine. What's the question, what's the course of argument? What's the course 36 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:53,240 of argument that Justin Martyr takes with Trifo? Did you Well, this is 37 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,919 an argument of this is commonality between us. It we believe believe that you 38 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,360 know, these things actually were revealed to us, you know, for a 39 00:02:59,439 --> 00:03:04,280 process. Yeah, but see, your church teaches that the Old Testament taught 40 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,639 a Unitarian deity and that the New Testament revelation is of the Trinity. I 41 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:12,240 don't believe that, and I'm showing you that the New Testament writers don't believe 42 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,479 that, because how does Jesus argue for the relationship of the Father and the 43 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,919 Son in the book of John. Well, that's the thing, is new 44 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,520 Ones. There's so much his context depend on. It really depends on how 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,199 does he argue in John five? Well, I would need to get my 46 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:31,319 Bible if you want to talk about it. I mean, I got mine 47 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,599 outlets. Do you want to see what he shows? Don't repeat my name. 48 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:39,199 Don't repeat my name. So right, so I'm asking and you're giggling. 49 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,800 I'm asking you basic Trinitarian questions. No, we don't, we don't. 50 00:03:44,879 --> 00:03:50,199 I just told you fundamental disagreements. The Old Testament doctrine of the Trinity 51 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,879 is why we believe in the Trinity. That's why Jesus refers to the relationship 52 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:58,400 of Moses on the mountain in Exodus, and he says, I'm the one 53 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:01,439 talking to Moses on the mountain in John five, to the Pharisees. Okay, 54 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,479 in John sixteen seventeen, he talks at fifteen sixteen seventeen, he talks 55 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:11,960 about the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit is all throughout the Old Testament as 56 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,839 a distinct person. And that's why, for example, many of today's rabbis 57 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:24,399 admit multiplicity in God in the Old Testament. The New Testament writers constantly refer 58 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:30,079 to the Old Testament to prove the trinity. The word trinity has nothing to 59 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,360 do with whether or not the doctrine of the Trinity is taught. And that's 60 00:04:33,399 --> 00:04:38,800 why the Trinity is in the Old Testament. Because Abraham believed in Father, 61 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:43,839 he believed in Angel of the Lord Logos, and he believed in the Holy 62 00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:47,519 Spirit. That's what the icon of the three Visitors to Abraham means. So 63 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:54,800 if you understood Trinitarian theology, you would know that that's basic in Orthodox theology. 64 00:04:55,319 --> 00:05:00,000 Roman Catholic theology does not have that as basic because Roman cathogy theology doesn't 65 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:03,959 not have the Trinitarian doctrine. That is correct, it has a heterodox development 66 00:05:03,959 --> 00:05:08,759 of doctrine. And you, guys, prove the development of doctrine like Trent 67 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,519 didn't the debate with Trent by saying that the Old Testament teaches a Unitarian deity 68 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:17,240 and the New Testament teaches the Trinity. That is categorically false. So when 69 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:24,040 Justin Martyr debates Tripo the Jew, he argues the Trinity from the Old Testament. 70 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,959 That's before the codification of the doctrine of the Trinity. So you understand 71 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:36,759 that theology is taught before the words are used. But Roman Catholicism confuses explication 72 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,160 of doctrine with development of doctrine. And that's how you got to all the 73 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,279 innovations of what you're talking about of eucharistic adoration and a thousand other things in 74 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:51,439 papalism that has nothing to do with biblical theology, nothing to do with patristic 75 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:58,079 theology, and violates all the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils. WHOA, 76 00:05:58,199 --> 00:06:02,600 okay, beautiful you you know, taking parts in the Old Testament and 77 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:06,439 then using that support the daughtrine of a trinity. Hold on, you understand, 78 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,600 Jesus and the Church fathers do that? You said, I'm doing it. 79 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,439 Jesus and the Church Fathers do well, you repeat to it. But 80 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,639 that's beautiful, I tell you. Do they not do that? But do 81 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,639 they not do that? Why are you repeating my name? Do they not 82 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,000 do that? Yeah? They do? But yeah, you said something quite 83 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:29,360 interesting. You actually said the Orthodox and Roman Catholics we actually have different definitions 84 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,439 of a trinity. Absolutely, that's quite an extreme position. No, it's 85 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:40,839 it's one factual. I'll say it, because there are medieval councils excommunicating one 86 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:46,639 another over the trinity. So in what way does does our definition of a 87 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,040 trinity differ from yours? Well, I just gave you an example that the 88 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:57,160 Old Testament doesn't teach a unitarian deity. I agree, So natural theology is 89 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,920 not true because natural theology usually predicates that the Old Testament teaches a Unitarian deity 90 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,079 and the Trinity is a New Testament revelation if you read into it, I 91 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:10,079 mean read into it again. So is that not Vatican Two's doctrine or natural 92 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,519 theology or is it? I think it's uh? You know this is why 93 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,480 no, strich, No, your your church teaches that Muslims and Christians believe 94 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,519 in the same God because they're monotheistic. Do you agree with that? No, 95 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,839 again, that's that's not what it says. Yes, it does. 96 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,560 It's an interpretation. No, hold on, So wait a minute, it's 97 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,600 an interpretation. I thought Vatican two and the Documents of Dogma are are the 98 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:41,560 interpretation. So you're saying that that's an interpretation of an interpretation. Jay, 99 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,560 why do you keep repeating my name? Can you address the argument instead of 100 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:51,000 look j J J J Look Jay, Let Jay, because it's a deflection 101 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:57,839 and it's a stupid tactic. That's like NLP. Why are you giggling? 102 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:13,759 It does crazy? Yeah, okay, enough of that fumbles, right, 103 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:18,000 So the you see what happens is that they do the exact same thing. 104 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:24,959 They always do. This rather than address specific points, they do this condescending 105 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,120 giggle, especially the Brits and the Australians. They're all they all do this 106 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:41,799 exact same thing, Ja from Brian's bass. The problem. Look, can 107 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,559 you not have a conversation that sticks to the points and addresses them. You 108 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,320 don't have to say my name fifty times? Look, Jay, look, 109 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:52,919 look, look look, Ji, look, look, look, look, 110 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,320 look, look, look look, come on, and that condescending giggle. 111 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:00,200 Dude, get out of here with that, and the Roman calics are was 112 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,200 like, do you so mean? He do me? But I have to 113 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:11,399 listen to a condescending giggle infinitely repeating my name and not addressing any point that 114 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:18,480 was raised. Fumbles, Oh yo, j did you hear Ted Kazinski died? 115 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:24,399 No, he died, money died in prison. Interesting, So anything 116 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:26,799 to do with what we're talking about today. I'm not trying to be mean 117 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,039 to you, but it's open. It's open for him debate on Rome Catholicism, 118 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:37,080 Protestantism, atheism not Ted Kazinski day, Yeah, yeah, well with 119 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,759 Roman Catholicism. I have a gave me a question about the what's have you 120 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:43,679 ever addressed the Pope Agatha question? I feel like you have, but if 121 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,799 you have anything to say about it, I'd like to maybe mentioned it because 122 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:52,399 I saw some Roman Catholics say something that Pope Agatha appropaently proves something to do 123 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,320 with the pH I mean, we've addressed that probably five hundred times. So 124 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,120 you can go to um the Denny book on ta Papalism. The chapter on 125 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,159 Pope Agatho is great because number one, it shows that it's not papalism for 126 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:11,919 two key reasons. First of all, the council itself excommunicates the prior pope, 127 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:15,840 so that shows that the papacy is not the rock, and it is 128 00:10:15,919 --> 00:10:20,440 defectable because the council and three subsequent councils also that continue to repeat the anathema 129 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:26,840 of Honorius clearly didn't interpret the statement of his letter to be infallible. So 130 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:30,320 just because the pope claims something in a letter, it doesn't mean that therefore 131 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:37,720 the entire church accepts that. Furthermore, Pope Martin had already condemned monothelotism. 132 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:41,080 If this was a papal situation, there would not have been a council. 133 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,200 They would have just looked to the prior condemnation of monothelatism by Pope Martin. 134 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,840 They would not have spent time investigating the Letter of Agatho to see if it 135 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:56,279 was Orthodox, just like they investigated the Letter of Leo to see if it 136 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,919 matched up with Saint Cyril. So when you read, when you understand that 137 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:07,919 context, then the papalist argument is absolutely nothing. M Yeah, okay, 138 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,759 well so but I'll get you someone else now right, Well, nice again, 139 00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:16,200 hope in a while. Yeah, man, thank you, good question, 140 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:28,320 good question, stagging? Oh hi Jay, Sorry, Um, I 141 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:35,480 just turned on the spaces, like right when you said you're gonna start uh 142 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,159 speakers, and so I'm not sure exactly what the debate is about. Buys 143 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,960 had it, So it's open for him debate or Q and A. It 144 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,240 doesn't have to be debate the topics of Roman Catholicism, protestantsm Atheism, Islam, 145 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:56,000 Pagan's, uh, philosophy, Biblical theology, geopolitics. Okay, I 146 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:03,120 just had a question about the masoretic Uh, the Bible's like, aren't they 147 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:13,440 the word God? Wasn't it based off of Yahweh or Elohim or l which 148 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,320 are words that they don't know what it means exactly. They're they're just terms 149 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,600 like the word divinity, right, so that it's like saying divinity can be 150 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:26,240 a generic descriptor or of a god, of a demon, or of the 151 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:31,840 true God. So it's no different than the word divinity. So people make 152 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,240 dumb word concept. I'm not talking about you, but people just make word 153 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,080 concept fallacy mistakes of thinking that the word divinity is a proper noun. It's 154 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,559 not. Okay, that's interesting, just like the word God is not a 155 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,879 proper noun because it can be used for gods. It can be used for 156 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:54,279 God, it can be used for the divine nature, could be used for 157 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,440 the divine persons, could be used for divine energies. The word God can 158 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,279 pick out different things. It doesn't pick out one single thing. And probably 159 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:09,720 eighty percent of people's not you, but dumb theological mistakes and errors are about 160 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,320 things like this. For example, Muslims think that the word God can only 161 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,600 pick out Allah in his unity and his simplicity, as if the word God 162 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:24,960 can't pick out multiple things. Okay, And like the words the Holy Spirit 163 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,879 like spirit, it was from the Hebrew Hebrew word ruak, meaning like they 164 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:35,799 don't know. They have two meanings on what they think that word originally meant 165 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,639 but it is like either well again, so spirit could spirit could pick out 166 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,600 a human spirit, an angelic spirit, or it could pick out the divine 167 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:48,399 spirit their generic terms that can pick out different things. What do you think 168 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:56,120 about these new ancient technology like I guess they call him conspiracy theories, but 169 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,759 like the that there was ancient society with like good good, like better technology 170 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:07,840 than we have now ten thousand years ago before the cataclysmic event. Yeah, 171 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,840 I suppose that's possible. I mean, if the Book of Enich is telling 172 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,320 us, you know, some kind of story like that, then and that's 173 00:14:15,399 --> 00:14:18,039 that's possible. But it's very speculative. So good questions. Let's move on. 174 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:39,000 Varangian m all right, try to try to come back in. I 175 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:41,799 can't hear. You're not making any sounds. Mean badger, what's up, 176 00:14:41,879 --> 00:15:07,279 dude, I'm mute. M I'm mute. Guys, when you come on, 177 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,960 you're muted. You gotta umute yourself. He's so mean. Imagine saying 178 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,919 the same thing five hundred times and you think I'm mean. I used to 179 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,279 wonder why radio show hosts and TV like, why they would kind of get 180 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,600 like seemingly fussy, you know when you see the bill O'Reilly clip or when 181 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,720 you see the clips of Laura Ingram and she's being kind of rude. It's 182 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:37,120 because when you work or do things in media, there is this never ending 183 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,440 thing that you always have to do that gets really annoying because you want to 184 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,720 move on and do things, and so when you have to tell people to 185 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,120 unmute, like every time, it gets really annoying for you to have to 186 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:54,320 do it. Does that make sense? And then everybody's just like lukell, 187 00:15:54,399 --> 00:16:00,159 impatient to use. Look, we're more virtuous than him. We've won. 188 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:07,840 He's not virtuous. We are great, we have defeated him. So look, 189 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:12,279 dude, un mute. How hard is Everybody spends all day on their 190 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:19,159 fricking phones and people can't figure how long has twitter happened? Twitter has been 191 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,519 a thing for a long time. Spaces have been a thing for a long 192 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:27,679 time. All you gotta do is I'm mute. It's not hard. By 193 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,080 the way, I'm having fun ranting about it before the people will clip this 194 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,879 and be like, we've caught him. We've caught him. He's not virtuous. 195 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:44,039 We knew it all along. It's a glorious day for us soy mails 196 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:52,519 we've won. That's how a soy maal exults in his soyness. By the 197 00:16:52,559 --> 00:17:03,720 way, that's how they act. Jonathan, what's up, dude to me 198 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:17,079 means to me, yes, sir, So, I've been doing some research 199 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,799 and all this theological stuff, and you know, a lot of different camps 200 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,759 have some good arguments, and I was curious what your path was to figure 201 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:30,079 out how you ended up being a Porthodox rather than stopp any one of the 202 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:33,640 other camps. Well, I mean that's kind of an involved question. I 203 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,359 don't mind answering it. By the way, guys in the chat, if 204 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,200 you would hit like and share over on YouTube, we got a nice four 205 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:45,319 hundred crowd over there. Let's get let's get those numbers shops. Get those 206 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,640 numbers shop and if you want to support the show, you can buy the 207 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:55,079 super chat function, which is through stream Labs. What are your channel monitorsed? 208 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,839 Because I got de moonitized a long time ago, So super chats are 209 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:04,079 by stream Labs. That's the stream Labs link right there. So I mean 210 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,880 there's a lot of I mean, I had a kind of a long journey 211 00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:14,240 to Orthodoxy through being raised Protestant and then Calvinists. I got into Calvinism and 212 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:18,559 Bible College, a did Bonsan seminary, and then I got into Roman Catholicism 213 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,480 Tray Catholicism throughout my twenties eight, nine, ten years ish, and then 214 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,079 I got into Orthodoxy, but I wasn't ready in two thousand and seven or 215 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:29,799 eight, so it took me about ten years to come around the Orthodoxy. 216 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,400 And I'd spent a long time going through kind of agnostic phase, not agnostic 217 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,640 like there's no God, but like agnostic to the different traditions of you know, 218 00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:47,240 Christianity so called. But I think ultimately for me it was seeing them 219 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:56,880 the problem positions in Protestantism, the contradictions between pre impost Vatican to Roman Catholicism, 220 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,599 which has only been accentuated in the last twenty years or so. Um 221 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,599 spending time in both of those worlds, as well as continuing to get deeper 222 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:10,720 into the Eastern Church fathers, the history of the Church, the various councils, 223 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,319 and what the Roman caw that cannons and councils were saying versus the cannons 224 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:18,559 of the first thousand years of the Church. Those are kind of the big 225 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:23,480 deciding factors for me as well as biblical theology. Okay, that makes sense 226 00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:26,799 because you know, I don't want to just make a decision based off of 227 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,759 like how I feel exactly. No, sure, you can't base it on 228 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:37,039 that likely you know, emotionally involved things. So it's not like you can 229 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:41,279 just like figure out from sort on biased perspective, right right, distance myself, 230 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:49,759 right, So I guess I was just trying to figure out and you 231 00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:52,400 know, sooner than later, because you know, trying to suck to be 232 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:59,319 in the prom Church and in car correction. So well, yeah, I 233 00:19:59,319 --> 00:20:03,880 mean I think I wouldn't base my decision on fear. I wouldn't base it 234 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,599 on emotions. I think the only way to do it is to base it 235 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,000 on spending time in the material and looking at the different arguments, because any 236 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,279 other basis that you do, if you make a choice on that, it's 237 00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:21,839 not gonna you're not going to be content with that. You're gonna be you 238 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,119 know, when you're Orthodox for a year and you start seeing problems in the 239 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,200 Orthodox Church, you're gonna move on to something else because the basis for which 240 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,759 you came in was not solid. So I think that emotions and you know, 241 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,119 threats and concerns. They play a role, but they can't ultimately be 242 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,799 the deciding factor. So I would say it has to be on the basis 243 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,359 of the history, the theology, the objective facts. That's literally the only 244 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,480 way to do it. Otherwise you're gonna be wandering through a mirage, through 245 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,640 a maze of bad arguments and bad reasons. And a lot of times people 246 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,839 choose churches for bad reasons, and that's the worst thing to do. For 247 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,720 example, we almoll be a trag kit because that could be politically based. 248 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:08,319 Okay, that's nothing to do with what Jesus is preaching in the Gospel, 249 00:21:08,519 --> 00:21:12,680 right, Jesus is not preaching making you politically based. Now, there might 250 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:18,400 be an outworking of political basement down the road, but the whole purpose of 251 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,720 this is the transformation of you, right and theosis. If that's not your 252 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:29,799 goal, it's not. If that's not the actual experience, then you're in 253 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,359 a religion of dead works that is really just a model for some kind of 254 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,119 political thing. And I think that's principally what papalism is. Papalism is the 255 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:45,799 worship of authority and something that eventually became geopolitical and humanistic. It is not 256 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:52,000 ultimately about you undergoing repentance and transformation of yourself. That's why everything in that 257 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,480 system is this weird transactional thing where I do whatever I want. I can 258 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:02,160 be ridiculous all week and act like a behemoth, and then I go to 259 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,680 confession and do my little transaction and I'm good. I mean, that's just 260 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,759 ridiculous. Like the whole point of the religion is to for you to undergo 261 00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:15,519 transformation, to become a partaker of the divine nature. Like I see that, 262 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:18,440 Like that, that's that's what I want. Like you would ask most 263 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:22,880 Christians that question. I think they would say that, you know, maybe 264 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,279 not all of them, right, but the lot of the ones that will 265 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:27,720 like keep their Bible every day and pray and things that you can give a 266 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:33,880 church everyone. That seems like a pretty generic Christian answer. So okay, 267 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,640 well, so let's be precise. So I'm not putting you on the spot. 268 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,000 I know, I know you're not necessarily debating, but I mean, 269 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,400 what are some of the objections that you have, Like do you think Protestantism 270 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:48,440 is more appealing or Roman Catholicism as opposed to Orthodox syne And I never really 271 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,480 could figure out the whole thing, and I was raised Anglican. Hold On, 272 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,839 I didn't you cut out the whole what the whole people infallibility deal? 273 00:22:56,039 --> 00:23:02,480 That just seems very sucks. Yeah, having come in eighteen hundred years after 274 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,400 Yea, Peter, sure, I am. I do been thinking that's suspicious. 275 00:23:10,599 --> 00:23:14,559 No, I've made a very argument many times, so I don't think 276 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,960 it's dumb. Yeah. So, I mean, if there is one true 277 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,160 church, right, then I guess I would have to default to orthodoxy. 278 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,000 But on the other hand, like you know, I've seen a lot of 279 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:32,160 good things happening in these Protestant areas, you know, like they'll become Christian, 280 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,680 just generic Christian, and then you know their whole life is turned around 281 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,839 and it really seems like to do love Jesus. So it's like, I 282 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,359 mean, how do I swear that with there's the whole there's only one church? 283 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:47,960 Well, the fact that there's good things that happen and there's graces that 284 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,839 exist in the outside the church, it's fine. That doesn't and that doesn't 285 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,559 mean that those people aren't having a real experience of grace or that they're not 286 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,039 moving towards Christ. But that doesn't negate the fact that there's only one body. 287 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,079 You know, Jesus says, for example, that there would be one 288 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,119 flock and one shepherd, and he said, and Paul says, that there's 289 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,039 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. So you can't 290 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:17,400 have that existing amongst thousands of different sects. There's got to be one. 291 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:21,240 And the only one that has the same theology of the first thousand years is 292 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,079 the Orthodox Church. There's literally no other one. So I think that what 293 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,039 happens is that God's grace is everywhere, right, the Holy Spirit is on 294 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,480 the present, and Maximus has there's a great section and at the Lastium where 295 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:37,319 he talks about the different modes of the presence of the Holy Spirit. So 296 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,440 there's a mode of the presence of the Holy Spirit that's everywhere, that's unique, 297 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,000 that's distinct from the mode of his presence in the Orthodox Church. So 298 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,480 it's certainly true that people are being experiencing grace, but that grace is always 299 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,160 a movement towards Orthodoxy. It's always a movement towards the source of that grace, 300 00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:03,240 which is the actual body of Christ. When Jesus became incarnate, he 301 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:11,400 took on an actual historical physical body, right, and that same appellation of 302 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:17,559 his body is said to the historical Church, meaning that it is also a 303 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,599 historical reality, that's a physical, actual local presence. And if you think 304 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:29,920 about the Protestant interpretations of say Ephesians or Corinthians. When Paul's writing his letters, 305 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,240 most Protestants, especially if they're coming from like a Calvinist classical Protestant perspective, 306 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,720 they believe that those letters are written to the quote invisible Church, the 307 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:42,759 true Christians that exists amongst the thirty thousand sects. But that's not who Paul's 308 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,440 writing those letters too. They're not addressed to the invisible church at corinth to 309 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,759 the invisible Church at Ephesus. They're written to actual historical churches like Ephesus where 310 00:25:52,759 --> 00:26:00,839 Paul appointed Timothy to be bishop. You see. Yeah, so the Orthodox 311 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,799 Church, for example, there's still a bishop of Ephesus. That's the that's 312 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:11,759 the historic Church. So the fact that people in other groups experience promptings in 313 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:15,519 the pullings of grace does not mean that therefore they are also the true Church. 314 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:22,480 That's the non sequitur. Okay, let me give you an example. 315 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,640 There's a couple of chapters in Acts. I think it's like eight or nine, 316 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:33,119 and then maybe like eighteen or nineteen where the apostles Paul and the apostles 317 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:40,319 they go out and they find disciples and they go ahead and say, it's 318 00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:45,160 great that you guys have this faith. In one case, they are disciples 319 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,319 of John who had not heard about the laying on of hands and the Holy 320 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,240 Spirit. Okay. And the Orthodox Study bubbles great on that on those sections 321 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:59,640 because it explains that Paul is representing the episcopacy and he brings these people under 322 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,319 the escapade. Say okay, so he brings them under. He doesn't say 323 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,640 you had no experience of grace at all. He says, this is great, 324 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,759 but you need to be under the episcopacy. And that's what if you 325 00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:15,480 look at the history of the Orthodox Church, for example, the Antiochians, 326 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:19,920 when you had there was a large group in the eighties of evangelicals that suddenly 327 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,400 got interested in Orthodox here, right, and what do the Antiochians do. 328 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,119 The Antiochians said, we will bring you in under the episcopate, doing the 329 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,559 very thing that Paul did. So that's the I think that's the right approach, 330 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,920 is to not completely deny people's experiences and Protestantism wholesale. But to say 331 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,440 that's great, but you need to come into the church and be under the 332 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,680 episcopacy. And that's why Jesus says, when the apostle see the guy casting 333 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,279 out demons, they say, should we forbid him? And Jesus says, 334 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:56,480 we can't. We shouldn't forbid anybody because anybody who's truly doing these things in 335 00:27:56,559 --> 00:27:59,839 my name, they will soon be with us. You see. So that 336 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,920 text which people always used to try to prove a humanism, it's not actually 337 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,240 a proof of a humanism. It's proof that Jesus actually says no, if 338 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,799 he if he's serious, he'll join us. I'll have to reread those passages 339 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:18,279 with that in mind, but thank you. Yeah, any more questions, 340 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:23,039 Um, where does traditions start and where does it stop? Like what what 341 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:26,799 what constitutes the tradition? Right? Because you know you can say, okay, 342 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:32,000 we've got this saint said that says that, how do you say you 343 00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:34,400 know this is a holy tradition, this writing of his saint, and this 344 00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:42,799 is just a regular tradition. Yeah. So, so, first of all, 345 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,519 divine revelation is not the same as something that a saint said necessarily right. 346 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:56,359 Divine revelation is the full teaching of the Apostles contained in the Apostolic deposit 347 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,599 both written and oral. So one of the great examples of trade is the 348 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,720 liturgy and liturgy, for example, the style and structure of the church's worship, 349 00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:08,039 which is not actually listed anywhere in the New Testament. For example, 350 00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:15,079 it's a it's a it's a it's a thing that the Apostles gave to the 351 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Church that is not in written form but is in performative form. In other 352 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:26,720 words, it's it's a performance, it's a it's a structure that the Church 353 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,880 did, rather than what the Church was concerned with writing a version of it 354 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,160 and disseminating it. Because the Church from the earliest day has had a hierarchy, 355 00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,839 orthodoxy is both hierarchical and decentralized at the same time. So in the 356 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,400 early Church you had people doing the liturgy, and the Bible is part of 357 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,319 the liturgy. The actual context of the Bible is to be heard in liturgical 358 00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:55,480 celebrations. Why, because that's how the Jews did it. The Jews read 359 00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:59,319 the texts. You could read them at home if you had David's scrolls, 360 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:03,839 but actually they're meant to be heard in the liturgical worship of the community of 361 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:11,000 the Church. So the Bible itself actually comes to be and to be codified 362 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:15,160 in terms of the canon via the liturgical tradition of the Church. A lot 363 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:21,839 of people don't know this, but the decision of what books would go into 364 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,359 the canon as many factors. One of those by the fifth and sixth century 365 00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:30,319 was looking at the liturgical texts and the daily readings of the church. So 366 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:34,960 the daily readings the lectionaries had a key role in the determination of the Canada 367 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,559 Scripture. And that's even most Protestant scholars admit this. So liturgy is this 368 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,200 one example of quote tradition of the Church that is indispensable from knowing what books 369 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,839 go in the Bible. Tradition includes things like, you know, lies of 370 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,480 the saints in that there's there are stories in their lives inspire us to live 371 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:02,599 rightly and to accept you know, martyrdom or whatever. Tradition is includes things 372 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,640 like the decrees of the canons of the councils right, So even though a 373 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,799 canon of a council is not equivalent to divine revelation, it's normative in the 374 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,720 sense that you know, the Church has the authority to make these rulings. 375 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:22,279 And that's because Jesus said, I you know, I've given you authority, 376 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:26,480 right, he says to the church in Matthew sixteen Matthew eighteen, he says, 377 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:29,480 he that hears you. Here's me the church has the authority of Christ. 378 00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:33,319 And that means that they're going to develop a structure by which they can 379 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:37,559 make canons and enforce them. So all of those things are part and parcel 380 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:44,279 of tradition. But divine revelation is specific in that it is the theological teachings 381 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:48,400 that the apostles taught from Christ, both in written and oral form. And 382 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,079 that's that's the church fathers teach this. The New Testament teaches us. The 383 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,440 Old Testament taught the same thing. There was there was divine revelation contained in 384 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,960 written and oral teaching. Okay, okay, I think that answers a question 385 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:09,440 pretty well. Thank you so much, yet of good questions? All right, 386 00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:17,559 Jack, what's up? Jack? Thank you guys for those super chats. 387 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,640 You have to hit the mute. People get we're just having fun today, 388 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:29,160 right, So people are freaking out thinking that I was having a meltdown. 389 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Now, I always joke around on streams not a meltdown if you would 390 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,400 hit like and shared. Also, there is the stream labs link for super 391 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:45,359 chats Jack Agent. I actually had one question I was waiting on. But 392 00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:50,640 you're something that you just mentioned there that I'll kind of interject your m My 393 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,759 background is like kind of a great Baptist and then kind of with Presbyterian Reformed 394 00:32:54,759 --> 00:33:00,519 And now I did the same thing. Okay, not that friend of mine 395 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:02,839 just recently kind of turns kind of training on to your work and some of 396 00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:07,720 the Orthodox stuff you mentioned just now about you know, the liturgy, and 397 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:14,799 that the Bible doesn't really talk about how church is supposed to be conducted. 398 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:17,240 But one thing I really come into kind of defined a lot of what I 399 00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:22,759 think about the church is really around First Corinthians fourteen, where it says really 400 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:29,400 specifically that two or people two or three people should speak. There should be 401 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,799 a time for response, as in critiquing and kind of judging publicly judging the 402 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,000 speaker's words. You should be able to interrupt if one person is speaking. 403 00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:45,119 And the Conservative Church seems to me says, you know, they love First 404 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:47,559 Corinthians fourteen thirty four, Wards says, let the woman keep silent in the 405 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:53,519 church, but it seems like, you know, they just completely ignore it. 406 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,799 In that same passage, it says, if you claim to be your 407 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,799 religious or spiritual person, but you don't acknowledge that this is how church is 408 00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:06,799 supposed to be conducted, then you're not even recognized. And it's a command 409 00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:12,159 specifically from Christ. And so I can't anymore. I think that the entire 410 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,960 environment of the church, of any church, constant, anywhere else seems to 411 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:22,920 me a very kind of almost cockled environment, because it's basically demeaning. Just 412 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,079 to me, I see the value of in Christ's incarnation. And then when 413 00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:29,840 he says I come as the first point in many brothers, I take that 414 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,159 really seriously. I'm a brother to Christ. And so you know, also 415 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,880 when you see even in Jesus teaching, he's always interacting, he's always dialoguing 416 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:45,559 and debating with people. And so to me, this seems like the entire 417 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:52,320 environment of a church where you have basically the paid professional religious elites or basically 418 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,480 telling everyone to shut up and sit down. I'm the only person that's qualified 419 00:34:55,599 --> 00:35:00,400 to speak about God, and you know, offer any kind of insights to 420 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:07,280 me, it's so contrary to really the entire like, if you look at 421 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,719 Jesus life, the kind of young and archetypes, who are the bad guys, 422 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,000 who are the intruemies of God? Because it wasn't the government, it 423 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,760 was the religious leaders. That's the people he hated and despised. So when 424 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:25,960 I'm so, how do you reconcile kind of first things fourteen with the liturgy? 425 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,920 Sure? So, first point is that the Intertestamental period, as we 426 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,480 call it, is a unique time. So when we have the apostles going 427 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:42,280 out and establishing the church, there's a lot of things going on that will 428 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,320 not necessarily be normative for the entire history of the Church. So for example, 429 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,920 direct inspiration and sort of speaking in various languages and whatnot that we see 430 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,280 at Pentecost, and Paul seems to be describing elements of this when he's talking 431 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,960 about the charismatic gifts to the Corinthians. And so the Holy Spirit inspires people 432 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,880 to sort of prophesy or to say things, which we see in the Book 433 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,400 of Acts, right, So we see different prophets and people inspire to sort 434 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:13,079 of spontaneously do things in the Book of Acts, So you're correct that that 435 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:19,239 does occur. However, that does not mean that that mode of worship or 436 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,960 dialogue or debate or whatever that goes on in that early Apostolic siting would be 437 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,719 normative for the whole history of the Church. So once the destruction of the 438 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,159 temple occurs and the apostles then spread the message, and eventually the last apostle, 439 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:38,480 John dies, there's no longer going to be this kind of direct speaking 440 00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:43,239 of the Holy Spirit in that way. That doesn't mean there's not spiritual gifts, 441 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,719 and there's not discernment and miracles or the Orthodox Church believes in all those 442 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,719 things. But what we believe is that even in the Book of Acts, 443 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,400 Paul, I mean, excuse me, Corinthians, Paul talks about there being 444 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:55,719 a form of worship. But what I meant was not that the New Testament 445 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,440 doesn't critique or talk about how, roughly speaking, things should go. There's 446 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:07,400 not an actual list and service structure. Okay, So in the Old Testament, 447 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:08,400 like you know, obviously, God, if you read the story of 448 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:14,440 Nate having a Bayhu and Lebticus, God's really concerned with how worship goes down. 449 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,159 You know what I mean? You can't just do whatever you want, 450 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,400 because when Nate having a bay who lights strange fire, they get killed because 451 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,239 they're doing it in an inappropriate, not structured way. God is not the 452 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,880 other confusion we know. So so hold on, hold on last point, 453 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,320 last point. Right. Last point is that from the very first days of 454 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,079 the church we know that there is an ordered liturgical worship service because it's in 455 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:44,280 the Church Fathers. They discuss this. For example, early early on, 456 00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:49,400 Justin Martyr talks about the structure of the church service that it is liturgical. 457 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,000 Paul has, for example, references in his epistles to various liturgical recitations and 458 00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:59,400 hymns that were being sung in the first century of the Church. And when 459 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:08,800 you go to pretty standard scholarship amongst Protestants, in Evangelicals and even sort of 460 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:15,880 like even Calvinist his liturgists, they will admit that the earliest services were liturgical 461 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:22,079 worship. There's a great book by Hugh Wybrew called Orthodox Liturgy, and he's 462 00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:24,960 himself as an Anglican and he's writing about the history of liturgical worship. There's 463 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:31,079 another great book called Orthodox Worship Content. Hold on continuity. Last is the 464 00:38:31,159 --> 00:38:35,800 last point. Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church 465 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,119 by Williams an install And what you see in these in these texts is the 466 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:44,719 admission that the first century of the Church worshiped in a liturgical way, much 467 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,880 like Jews worshiped at the synagogue and the Temple. When Jesus went to worship, 468 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,920 that's how he worshiped. So we actually know how the ancient Jews and 469 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:58,000 the Early Church worshiped, and it is the way that the Orthodox Church worship 470 00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:04,159 is worships. Ultimately, it's kind of your I feel like you're you're it's 471 00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:09,800 there asking these religiousy leads are basically asking me to give up what Christ promised 472 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,199 me. I mean, even it says when when when God gives it the 473 00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,719 First Corinthians fourteen, he says, or did the word of God come originally 474 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,920 from you? Or was it you only that are reached? If anyone thinks 475 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,639 that he himself to be a prophet or spiritual and hicknowledge of things like which 476 00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:30,320 I write to are commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, 477 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,800 let him be ignorant. The entire passage of First Christ fourteen is it really 478 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,920 communicates that seems even more normative that even though he's actually kind of rebuking the 479 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:46,920 Corinthians because they have diverged from the normal way that Christ interacted with people. 480 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,199 So again, you did you not hear I'm not being rude to but you 481 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,760 sort of repeated what I said as if what I said you quoted a bunch 482 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,039 of books. I just can't I don't know the reference that I had to 483 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:01,920 go back and look and see what their specific debate arguments are. No, 484 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:07,880 I didn't just quote books. I also pointed out that there's an established structure 485 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,559 of liturgical worship that God has always had in place, and your response was 486 00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:15,760 to ignore all that and just restate the fact that, yeah, but Jesus 487 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,079 dialogue with people. Yeah but Jesus going out and doing minute, Jesus going 488 00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:24,800 out and listen, Jesus going out Paul and Peter, Paul confriended Peter in 489 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:31,760 the congregation. So okay, there's no You just assumed that everything that happened 490 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,920 in the Apostolic period is normative for the rest of the history of the Church. 491 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,519 Do you think we still have apostles? Right? Well, I mean, 492 00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:44,239 I was just saying, ultimately that you defer to the authority of the 493 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,079 institutional structure. Correct, So, but do you understand the difference between the 494 00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:55,079 Pharisees were a false religious structure that we're persecuting Christ Jesus established a church structure. 495 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:02,119 Yeah, I mean you're talking about You mentioned that this is the liturgy 496 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,159 was kind of from the beginning of the ages, And what's your thoughts on 497 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:13,239 like the you know, the communion the Lord's Table was conducted as a meal. 498 00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:15,239 A copy. It's not true. None of that's true. Years, 499 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,559 that's not true. It's not true. That's pretty well. You don't think 500 00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:22,880 that was. There was no gopy feast. I just did. No, 501 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:29,679 the the feast afterwards is not the eucharistic liturgy Paul talks about in Hebrews thirteen 502 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,800 an altar which we eat from. Protestants don't believe in an altar that you 503 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,639 eat from. But listen in the Didak it's very clearly called the bittocky in 504 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,679 all of the early Church is very clearly a meal. Did you not hear 505 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,719 what I said? The meal is not the same thing as the Eucharist. 506 00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:49,000 Yeah, they would have a feast after sure, it is. Actually that's 507 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,639 how Jesus not even no it's not. You're just selling it practice. No, 508 00:41:52,039 --> 00:41:57,320 Jesus is doing a eucharistic liturgy, which is the fulfillment of the temple 509 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,639 and levitical service. Yeah, I mean it might be worth it to go 510 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,960 look and look up because it's really not disputed with For the first hundred fifty 511 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,280 years it was. You just didn't listen to anything that I said. It 512 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,679 is disputed. You're not even don't you don't even know how to pronounce that. 513 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,079 You're not even pronouncing the text correct that you're sighting. It's the diddicky 514 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,639 and the didacky talks about the eucharistic liturgy, and that's not the same thing 515 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:27,719 as a feast that they have afterwards. Okay, I'll go back and listen 516 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,360 to the replay because I do want to look up those those couple of books 517 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:36,199 that you mentioned. Okay, the original clown. Yeah, well, I'm 518 00:42:36,199 --> 00:42:37,800 about to move on because I'm gonna start getting mad and then people are gonna 519 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:45,800 say that I'm being me, So we're gonna move on. Orthogone. Hello, 520 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:55,880 yes, sir, you're trying to shoot in a damn nail gun when 521 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:06,840 you're on a live stream. Come on, man, von Schleef if you 522 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,360 already did your your question, please don't come back immediately with another question. 523 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:15,519 Let's we want to get through different people. Uh you hear me, Jack, 524 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:22,920 Yep? How you doing? Hey? Um? Uh So the last 525 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,599 couple of years, as I've kind of dive deeper into orthodoxy, UM, 526 00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:32,400 you know, I've I've started to become a lot less classical liberal and my 527 00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:37,280 thinking about things, you know, think about my rights and my Constitution and 528 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,000 like acting like those are these UM divine things when they're just when they're not 529 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,280 UM. But at the same time, like when I'm talking to people about 530 00:43:45,599 --> 00:43:52,039 UM certain issues. UM. The other week, I was talking to someone 531 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,239 about like the Second Amendment UM as an example, and we were we were 532 00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:00,239 just having a discussion about it. UM is there like you know, like 533 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,199 my my prior self would have you know, again talked about like oh, 534 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,039 you know, my right to this or my right to that. But again, 535 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:12,840 like my my thinking sort to kind of change a bit about UM how 536 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,840 I approach these issues. But like from a from an orthodox standpoint, is 537 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,800 it just something that's it's kind of subjective. You can you know, have 538 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,199 your own opinion on it, just like you know, is it something you 539 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,000 should out of the Second Amendment. Let's let's let's use that as an example. 540 00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:31,800 Um, is it? You know, I don't mean I don't think 541 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,800 the church the church has like an official wing one or the other of what 542 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,679 they think. But I mean, well, I'm sorry, Well, Divine 543 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,880 Revelation trump's the cannons of the Church. So I mean, I'm not saying 544 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,480 that the canons of the church or contrary to the I mean, but I'm 545 00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:49,280 saying the Divine Revelation says you have a right to self defense. It's an 546 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,559 exodus. Okay, okay, okay, So, um, using that as 547 00:44:55,039 --> 00:45:00,840 the the starting point, then that will logically conclude that, you know, 548 00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:06,800 having ways to defend yourself would be justified like from a from a Christian in 549 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,280 orthodoxy. Now you have to defend your family. I mean, go look 550 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:14,159 up the ro Corps studies on ro Corps, history of rod Corps study on 551 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,880 war. Okay, okay, yeah, I mean imagine saying, oh, 552 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,880 you're a man, but you can't defend your family. I mean what yeah, 553 00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:28,320 yeah, And obviously you know, living in the modern world, like, 554 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,559 um, having a firearm is would be the best way to do that. 555 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:37,159 So it makes sense that then you know you'd be able to to have 556 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,800 one of course. Okay, got you, got you all right, Well 557 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,920 I'll look into that. That helps Jay, Yeah, yeah, just be 558 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:50,239 thinking about the lot good questions. Yeah yeah, I definitely believe that the 559 00:45:50,280 --> 00:46:04,920 Bible teaches together right self defense in Exodus. Duke of In in Inderta welcome 560 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,159 everybody. You want to support the stream, you can do so via the 561 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:09,840 super chat function. You can also support me via the links that are in 562 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,760 the show description. You can get my philosophy course twelve lectures on the history 563 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:20,039 of Western philosophy over at Richard Grows Autonomy marketplace. You can get tickets to 564 00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,960 our live event with Jamie Kennedy in Los Angeles July six. They're at the 565 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,599 event right link. You can call in via Twitter space as if you want 566 00:46:28,599 --> 00:46:30,039 to. You can have the floor for as long as you'd like. If 567 00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:32,599 you'd like to make an argument, if you'd like to ask a question, 568 00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:36,440 it's fine with me. You have to have it on your phone. It 569 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,280 does not work on PC, and you will be automatically muted because that's how 570 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,880 it works. It's not me muting you. Please don't make me say mute 571 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,239 twenty times if I give you. If I say your name and you come 572 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,119 on just talk. You can send super chats by stream labs. Everybody says, 573 00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:53,119 how can I send a super chat? Stream labs stream labs stream labs 574 00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:59,159 stream labs link right there? This channel is not monetized. Are you there, 575 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,679 dude? Yes, I'm hey, what's up? I don't so, 576 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,320 I'm doing great? How much? Right? So my question to use about 577 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,880 the Oriental Artho Church, but first element to say a couple of things. 578 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,960 Can you speak up Oriental orthodox I could barely hear you, Okay, So 579 00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:21,239 I was I was just saying I've been listening to your video and sent debates 580 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:27,599 for when I you've gotten basically interested in between Christians theology. But yeah, 581 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:30,280 it was your videos and helped me when I was losing faith and stuff. 582 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,840 But anyways, okay, so my question, my question is this is myphritism, 583 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,960 my physicism in your opinion wrong nothing, get our opinion. But like 584 00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:43,840 Eastern Orthodoxy, is it wrong or not? Yeah, it's wrong if you 585 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,719 interpret it in the way that the Orientals so called do when they confuse nature 586 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,880 in person and they don't allow any flexibility on the language. And that's why 587 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,599 the later Cyril and the two letters to six senses says what we say. 588 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,079 And so there's a section of John damascus Is on the Orthodox Faith where he 589 00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:07,199 gives our reading of the word meaflusis. So if you just mean that Christ 590 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:13,039 is, if you just mean the hyposidic union, that's fine. We agree 591 00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:16,480 with that. But we don't think that Christ is a tertium quid a third 592 00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:21,719 thing. So we've done probably ten streams on this. You can go find 593 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,599 the streams that I've done with David real med White, David Arhan. Look 594 00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:30,320 up those. There's countless of those. Okay, Well, so let me 595 00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:36,039 let me put it like this. So if I think Christ is basically fully 596 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,920 human and fully diffined, but in one nature and one united nature, is 597 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:49,440 it yeah, because nature has a specific terminology terminological use for us that the 598 00:48:49,559 --> 00:48:54,880 later Councils specify that you have to distinguish nature in person. So if by 599 00:48:55,239 --> 00:49:01,400 one incarnate quote nature you mean that it's a hypostatic union and he's only one 600 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,840 divine person, that's the decree of the Fifth Council that's attempting to reconcile you, 601 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,199 guys. If you mean that there's no longer the continuance of two natures 602 00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:16,840 and two natural two with two natural properties. That's heretical because did Christ did 603 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,400 his human did his divine nature die on the cross? I mean, it's 604 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,760 really obvious that that's not true, right, It would lead to it would 605 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:32,800 lead to absurd notions. Okay, yeah, go watch the discussions with me 606 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,880 and David Arhan. We've we've done a ton of these. It gets really 607 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:53,639 complex. Chandler, what's up, dude. I'm mute, all right, 608 00:49:54,320 --> 00:50:00,280 moving on if you can't, I'm mute. I don't know what to tell 609 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:09,280 you. I feel sorry for you. Stroke guru. Guys, it automatically 610 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:15,000 mutes you just unmute. Here, I am here, I am hey. 611 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:24,760 Okay. So Saint Augustine has it that novum Testamentum in vetua latet vetus Testamentum 612 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:30,679 in novo patet the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. The Old 613 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:36,039 Testament is revealed in the New Testament. This canon of interpretation is a standard 614 00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:40,519 part of the Catholic approach to the Bible. That's from Catholicism dot Org. 615 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,840 Yeah, I'm well aware of that quote. What about it? So earlier 616 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:52,199 you were saying that Catholics do not teach that the Trinity is in the Old 617 00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:57,840 Testament. But this contradicts that, right, So the guy was very specifically 618 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,440 saying that the dogma of the Trinity is not taught in the New Testament, 619 00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:05,599 or it's give me the Old Testament, because he's talking about the formulation of 620 00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:13,159 the doctrine of the Trinity at Nicia. By the way, do you understand 621 00:51:13,199 --> 00:51:16,239 you under you understand that Augustine is also an Orthodox saint. So the fact 622 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:22,280 that you quote a saint that's the same between Orthodox and Roman Catholics does not 623 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,480 prove that that's Roman Catholic dogma. But they do teach that the Trinity is 624 00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,840 in the Old test Yeah, And my point is that they contradict themselves because 625 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:37,320 the teaching of Vatican two and Natural Theology contradicts that. Where does it say 626 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:43,599 that in Vatican too when it teaches on natural theology and nosratate that Muslims and 627 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,159 Jews and Christians worship the same God because of monotheism, They don't the Old 628 00:51:47,159 --> 00:51:52,320 Testament teaches the Trinity. So all you're doing is pointing out contradictions in the 629 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,320 Roman Catholic view. It's gonna really how I felt when you debated Trent Horn, 630 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,000 I kind of feel like you smash to you natural theology. Nobody didn't 631 00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:07,159 because everything that you're saying shows that you didn't even understand the debate. Well 632 00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:09,159 that's what you're saying. Whoa what a lot of people think. I don't 633 00:52:09,159 --> 00:52:12,519 care what a lot of people think, because a lot of people who are 634 00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:15,599 Roman Catholics in the comments think that Trent lost the debate too. So how 635 00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:21,199 do you understand that he would? Do you understand that what you just said 636 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,320 contradicts Trent's whole argument? Are you that slow? Well, there's no reason 637 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,760 to make at home in him attacks their little buddy, you don't have the 638 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,159 Holy Spirit talk, So this is what he goes this is what he goes 639 00:52:31,199 --> 00:52:35,400 to, right, So the so the church fathers don't have the wor the 640 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,440 Holy so they don't have they don't have the Holy Spirit when they call people, 641 00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:42,599 uh to work with you? Bro, bro true, I don't care. 642 00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,199 I don't care what you have, no argument? So I just showed 643 00:52:45,199 --> 00:52:47,400 that you were an idiot. No, you didn't know, you didn't. 644 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,760 She's just words out. So this is all these guys do is spew out 645 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,880 this stupid stuff to the audience. Bro, you just contradict. You understand 646 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,480 that Trent teaches at Trent. He's not even he can't even address the argument. 647 00:53:00,519 --> 00:53:05,800 He can't control himself because these people are learning Masters in Cia. Like 648 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:07,840 you don't think the CIA is aware that you got a Masters in Cia. 649 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,800 Like, they're just gonna let you, like expose them, a masters in 650 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:19,960 Cia, not even a coherent to see, thank you, Roman Catholics, 651 00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:22,920 Keep it up, keep it up. He didn't even realize that the dumb 652 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:28,679 quote, the quote mind that he had is the opposite of what Trent argued 653 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:35,239 in the debate. Trent said that the Old Testament doesn't teach the Trinity right, 654 00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:39,599 illustrating my point. The Roman Caloic theology contradicts. So so you see, 655 00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:44,000 you see the absurdity and the ridiculousness of Roman Catholics. And then what 656 00:53:44,039 --> 00:53:47,559 does he do. He launches into this reformed uh or axcuse me, this 657 00:53:47,679 --> 00:53:53,599 uh Roman Caloic disputing of nonsense. I got a masters in Cia. I'm 658 00:53:53,639 --> 00:53:57,920 gonna say that was so dumb that that had to be a troll. But 659 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,360 then again, with Roman Catholics, you never know, you never could easily 660 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:15,199 be a legit just low iq Roman caw that you can never know, Joseph. 661 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,280 So we had a we had a pull at the beginning as to how 662 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,840 many trolls would show up, and we said two or under. So I'm 663 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,679 gonna say, was that I mean, that was so dumb. I can't 664 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:31,360 figure out if that was. Did you get your degree? And see it 665 00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:37,639 is imagine thinking that CIA is a degree. I got my degree in CIA. 666 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:43,480 Wow. I kind of wish you to what's up, Joseph, ahead, 667 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:52,079 you gotta have some patience with the Catholic traads this week because it's been 668 00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:58,880 one sex scandal after another. It's just really imploding. And when when I 669 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:05,519 tried it in age these people on Twitter, their response is always will you 670 00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:09,239 guys allow you know, divorce, rey marriage and contraception? So you know 671 00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:15,360 that's that's all they are. Yeah, all they have is what they think 672 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:22,360 is a moral one up, which is really signifying complete defeat. I mean 673 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,679 that guy, that guy didn't even realize that the very thing he's arguing is 674 00:55:24,679 --> 00:55:30,360 the opposite of Trent's argument in the debate. But yeah, great points, 675 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:36,280 Joseph. There was anything else you wanted to say? No? Yeah, 676 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:42,400 I meant, you know, you're cutting out so I'm sorry, We'll move 677 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,679 on. Yeah, I mean that's all Roman Catholicism has left is this kind 678 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,320 of stuff. And by the way, you notice the commonality between the people 679 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:59,079 who like lose their mind over me and that guy and the soy so called 680 00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:02,480 orthosphere, it's always the exact same, right, they just launch into the 681 00:56:02,599 --> 00:56:07,320 spewing of a bunch of nonsense. The I with you. Look at you, 682 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:16,400 man, beloid the curtain soul? What's up dude? How's it going? 683 00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:22,000 Does that guy think that that's gonna make romcas also isn't appealing to anyone? 684 00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:27,000 Just how stupid and low like you? That was? Well, I'm 685 00:56:27,039 --> 00:56:29,880 here to expose you, Jay, Please, do I need to be exposed? 686 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:34,480 It's time finally the giant pyramid. But six scheme you've got going in 687 00:56:34,519 --> 00:56:37,880 your backyard? Got all the evidence? No, I'm just kidding. What's 688 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:43,239 up? Um? So? I was actually the talk with Father Peter here's 689 00:56:43,639 --> 00:56:49,599 um yesterday and he was talking about he seemed to be arguing against the humanism 690 00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:54,079 on the basis that you really can't be good without being conjoined or communing with 691 00:56:54,199 --> 00:57:00,760 Christ in the body. Well, I mean when you say be good ultimately 692 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:06,480 for us being good means partaken of theosis. But I mean you can be 693 00:57:06,519 --> 00:57:10,360 good in the sense of you can have virtues right without necessarily being in the 694 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:16,440 Orthodox Church, because there's the mode of Christ's presence or the Spirit's presence is 695 00:57:16,599 --> 00:57:23,119 different in different situations. So his presence in the world in an omnipresence way 696 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,519 is different than the mode of His presence in the Church. So I would 697 00:57:28,519 --> 00:57:31,199 just be more precise about the word good there, like qualify what do we 698 00:57:31,239 --> 00:57:36,519 mean good? Because there is a distinction between nature and grace. That's not 699 00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,480 just a Roman Calvic thing. St. Gregory Palamus is very clear that there 700 00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:42,960 is a distinction between nature and grace. That doesn't mean that we have the 701 00:57:43,159 --> 00:57:46,719 nature grace two tiered dialectical scheme that we find in Roman Catholicism, but it 702 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:52,159 does mean that, as Paul says in Romans too, people can in any 703 00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:54,360 religion or in the world, because the laws in their heart, the Word 704 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,320 is near you, the Logos is in your heart, they can still do 705 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:06,840 virtuous actions. Yeah. So me and my brother have been debating this and 706 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,559 he brought up, you know, the law being written on your heart. 707 00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:13,360 And when I go to Romans two and three, I'm reading Saint JOHNI. 708 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:20,400 Persostum's homily on Romans two and three. Um. He Paul seems to be 709 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,119 making the argument that the Jews are condemned under the law of Moses and the 710 00:58:24,159 --> 00:58:29,280 Gentiles are condemned under the law of nature, the law written under Yeah, 711 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,239 but he says when they do right, they are either accused or excused. 712 00:58:34,599 --> 00:58:37,599 Yeah. And see when when you go to the fathers on that you get 713 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:43,039 what I'm what it seems they don't seem to be taken that as Oh well, 714 00:58:43,079 --> 00:58:46,199 these people can somehow be like saved through these goods. No, no, 715 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,559 no, I didn't say saying no, no, no, I didn't 716 00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:52,320 say that. I said they can be accused or excused on the basis of 717 00:58:52,360 --> 00:59:00,599 the actions, not the person themselves being saved. Okay, So when a 718 00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:05,679 pagan does something right, can he make can he do a good act? 719 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:10,639 Absolutely? I mean human beings have a let's say, I mean it would 720 00:59:10,639 --> 00:59:15,079 be a Calvinist view to think, for example that I'm not saying you're saying 721 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:19,800 this, but to think, for example that if a pagan mom loves her 722 00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:25,719 son right, there is a created human energy of love that's proper to our 723 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,480 nature right, where you can't have love for your for your siblings right. 724 00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:36,920 And to think that everything that a pagan does is inherently sinful or automatically sinful 725 00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:42,480 is actually a Manichean slash Calvinist view. It would mean that every action is 726 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,639 sinful in some way. That's not true. Okay, So there's a distinction 727 00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:52,199 between nature and grace, and you can do naturally virtuous actions. That's why 728 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:58,639 let me give you an example. In the Homilies of Saint Ambrose. He 729 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:05,039 picks out the class sickle pagan virtues and he ties them into how Christians can 730 01:00:05,239 --> 01:00:08,400 understand and read them. So what I'm saying is that not everything in the 731 01:00:08,519 --> 01:00:14,039 classical pagan world of virtues is false. That's why they're Many of the church 732 01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:19,920 fathers will cite Aristotle and cite his you know, text on virtue versus vice. 733 01:00:20,559 --> 01:00:23,920 Right, that wouldn't be the that wouldn't be the case if every action 734 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:29,360 that you did was sinful in some way. That's Calvinism. Yeah, I 735 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,639 don't think I would want to argue that every action is sinful in some way. 736 01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:37,000 It's just he's thrown I wish I had all of his like PDF for 737 01:00:37,519 --> 01:00:40,239 um, what he was going through because he had a bunch of quotes from 738 01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:44,320 the fathers. Um, one of the ones, I do have a screen 739 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:49,320 shot. Well he who's who? Hold on? He he? What's his 740 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,960 what's his art? What's his position? I don't know? Is this a 741 01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,400 Calvinist roma cal that? What's his position? Well, what's Father Peter here? 742 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,400 So it's oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I forgot you were 743 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,239 talking about in the text of a Humanism. So he's then flipping and saying 744 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,800 that the heterodox rights can't have grace in them on the basis of them not 745 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,679 actually okay, yeah, but so I'm not sure about his argument, but 746 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:17,199 yeah, it's it really doesn't matter about like just because you're I mean, 747 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:22,880 the natural virtues that are proper to human nature, they also come from Christ, 748 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,920 Maximus says, and they do point this to Christ. But they're not 749 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:32,760 equivalent to theosis, you see, So, um, could we argue that 750 01:01:34,519 --> 01:01:37,840 because there are I mean, I just don't understand the connection between whether there 751 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:44,440 are virtues in the pagan world to the heterodox not having grace and the sacraments. 752 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,400 I mean I don't think that they do. So, yes, So 753 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:51,920 if you'll let me quote Saint Cyril. Real quick, I'll get off. 754 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,119 But so Saint Cyril, and you can just explain what this is, what 755 01:01:54,159 --> 01:02:00,119 you think this quote means. Saint Cyril Jerusalem rights that the manner of piety 756 01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:06,119 or fear of God consists of these two of pious dogmas and of good deeds. 757 01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:09,119 And either the dogmas without good works that is life in Christ, are 758 01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:15,039 acceptable, are acceptable to God. Nor does God accept works done without pious 759 01:02:15,159 --> 01:02:22,480 dogmas. That is the truth of Christ. And yeah, but where am 760 01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:27,280 I misunderstanding here because it does seem to be saying with like without pious dogmas, 761 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,000 without the dogmas of the Church. So again, so again, if 762 01:02:31,079 --> 01:02:35,840 you read out the last Seam or Saint Maximus talks about the mode of the 763 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:40,199 presence of the spirit, it's different in the world as it is in the 764 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:46,960 Church. So God can accept and appreciate the virtues that men have that are 765 01:02:47,039 --> 01:02:51,840 natural virtues. That does not mean that they're being saved that is theosis. 766 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,280 Those are things that move us and point us in the direction of theosis, 767 01:02:54,280 --> 01:03:00,920 but they're not theosis. So in one sense they're acceptable in God appreciates when 768 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:07,400 a pagan mom loves her son, but that doesn't make her saved. Okay, 769 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:14,639 So acceptance in one sense, not acceptance in another sense. Okay, 770 01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:37,159 all right, that's all I got, Man Dawkin. Yeah, I mean, 771 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:43,760 Saint Cyril Jerusalem is not doing an ex curse. Saint Cyril Jerusalem is 772 01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:51,280 not doing an excursus on the status of classical virtues and being precise about He's 773 01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,320 saying, two Christians, what matters? Right? Yeah, just a second, 774 01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:00,400 So he's explaining. He's explaining what matters ultimately for us. He's not 775 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:08,360 explaining the speculative question about whether God in any sense appreciates the love that a 776 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,880 mom has for her son. So again, the natural virtues are not inherently 777 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:17,400 sinful. They don't necessarily save us, but they are They orient us to 778 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:24,880 grace and to Christ because our nature is not evil. Okay, we can't 779 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:32,239 have a theology that says that all of our works before Christ are inherently evil. 780 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,880 Okay, that's too black and white. There are natural virtues. Natural 781 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:42,840 virtues don't grant us theosis and salvation, but they orient us in that direction. 782 01:04:43,519 --> 01:04:46,079 And that's pretty common amongst the church fathers. So if you find a 783 01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:49,519 quote of Cyril Jerusalem, I'm not knocking anybody for doing that. But I'm 784 01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:56,199 saying that Cyril is not talking about the topic of does God accept any virtuous 785 01:04:56,239 --> 01:05:00,239 actions at all? Yes, he does, Cornelius praise and God hears his 786 01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:05,440 prayers even before Cornelius knew about Christ and had a full out, worked out 787 01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:11,280 theology in the church. Okay, but that doesn't mean that you're saved from 788 01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:17,559 natural It doesn't mean you're saved or participating in theosis from natural virtues. And 789 01:05:17,599 --> 01:05:23,960 the reason we say that is that you cannot say that everyone's actions are sinful 790 01:05:25,519 --> 01:05:30,400 merely via nature. That would be a kind of Manichean or Calvinist view. 791 01:05:30,239 --> 01:05:34,639 So again, there's a difference between works that are proper to our nature, 792 01:05:34,719 --> 01:05:42,280 that are virtuous and participating in theosis. There's a distinction between nature and grace. 793 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,880 That's very clear in Saint Gregor Palmus. What's up? Man? Hey, 794 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,840 what's up? Broth? So I have a question about the doctrinal assurance 795 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:58,280 and orthodoxy and so like, how does news have a doctional assurance and how 796 01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:03,639 does this play into episode justification? Like can you actually have assurance on the 797 01:06:03,679 --> 01:06:10,880 basis of like your justified true beliefs being true? Wait, I thought you 798 01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:16,320 were talking about assurance of salvation. That's different from philosophical justification and epistemology, 799 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,039 which one are you talking about? No, I'm saying, like, can 800 01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:26,760 you can you have you know, philosophical episdemic justification? Uh? And that 801 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,480 lead to assurance, like because like that doesn't just necessarily presuppose that if your 802 01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,159 worldview is true, then that means the Christian faith is true? Right? 803 01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:39,360 Yeah, I thought you were talking about the evangelical concern with the doctrine of 804 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:46,880 assurance of salvation. That's different from the question of epistemic justification assurance. But 805 01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:51,400 like, and is it really different though? Or like is like from from 806 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,239 my eyes? Yeah, they're different. They're totally different topics the same thing. 807 01:06:56,199 --> 01:06:58,960 They're not the same thing. They're totally true. Wouldn't that mean no, 808 01:06:59,119 --> 01:07:00,719 they're not the same thing. Can you not hear me? No, 809 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,599 they're different topics, so they're not the same thing. I'm but I'm trying 810 01:07:05,599 --> 01:07:10,519 to figure out how they're on the same thing because one of them is about 811 01:07:10,599 --> 01:07:15,679 your individual situation in relationship to your relationship to Christ. The other one is 812 01:07:15,719 --> 01:07:20,800 about objective facts and logic and whether or not a worldview is coherent. Two 813 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:26,679 totally different things. But like I'm not seeing that they're different things, because 814 01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,159 like it's like like they're necessarily interested that we tied together, like the Christian 815 01:07:30,199 --> 01:07:33,360 faith in your own faith are. Yeah, they might have a relation. 816 01:07:33,559 --> 01:07:36,440 Yeah, they might have a relation. But one of them is a question 817 01:07:36,519 --> 01:07:42,079 of your situation to the religion. The other one is a question of the 818 01:07:42,119 --> 01:07:46,360 factual truth or falsity of the religion. Two different things. I just I 819 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:51,199 don't see that they're different things though, this thing because m from like my 820 01:07:51,239 --> 01:07:56,920 own understanding, Like I just think that they're inextricably tied together, like because 821 01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,239 like from from in my personal situation. Can you not under listen? Hold 822 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,960 on? So I'm not saying they're not related. Anything can be related philosophically, 823 01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:13,119 but the fact that they're related doesn't make them the same. But wait, 824 01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:17,960 you're not explaining how they do doesn't make them the same though, So, 825 01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:27,720 um, is there a difference between my belief in or excuse me, 826 01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,800 let's let's put it this way, my relationship to the Communist party versus my 827 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:40,960 knowledge of communist philosophy? Are those two things different? M Yes, they 828 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:46,159 are different, but they're also linked, right, But they're different yeah, 829 01:08:46,159 --> 01:08:51,600 they are different. Okay, we're gonna move on now. Trying to be 830 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:58,600 me with you, but I'm gonna start getting mad, So Alex Chromatic, 831 01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,880 I'm you Jay Dyer. Yes, sir, hey man, I don't really 832 01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:18,800 have anything to debate you on. I just wanted to let you know. 833 01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:25,000 There's a YouTuber by the name Reckless Ben, and he supposed reckless without a 834 01:09:25,199 --> 01:09:30,640 w Reckless Band b M. And he did like a nineteen part expose on 835 01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:35,920 the Twelve Tribes where he actually like infiltrated the colt with spyglasses and spy watches 836 01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:41,279 and he made like this really insane like expose on them. And I just 837 01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:44,319 wanted to let you know real quick that I thought it's on a playlist that 838 01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:45,680 he has on his channel. I thought that would be a really dope content 839 01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:49,039 for like if you're gonna do another like cold live stream. Okay, y'all 840 01:09:49,079 --> 01:09:53,520 check that out, Reckless Ben, you said. And also I just wanted 841 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:58,920 to say, Oh, she's my little guru. I met her one Instagram. 842 01:09:59,399 --> 01:10:02,399 Nice. I like that, Yeah, baby, thank you for that. 843 01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:13,079 I'll check out Reckless Ben. Let's see Dark Armor night. What's up, 844 01:10:13,159 --> 01:10:19,680 dude? What's that jaky yeah, ye, perfects. All right. 845 01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:27,000 Um, it looks like I'm the second Orthodox Christian from so I guess you're 846 01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,720 what, speak up? I can't hear you? What can you hear me? 847 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:35,760 Now? Yeah? Go ahead, you're what? Um? Where I'm 848 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:40,920 from the region of to grive, where my, my, my, where 849 01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:45,600 my brand of Orthodoxy comes from. There's this popular belief that we have the 850 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:53,239 first remnants of human life that's called you heard of Lucy. You're talking about 851 01:10:53,239 --> 01:10:57,560 that dumb ape theory of Lucy. Yeah? Yeah, And I was going 852 01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,439 to ask you about exit Jesus of Genesis. On the sixth Day, it 853 01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:05,319 said that God friend man, but then after the day of Rest, on 854 01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:11,319 the sound Day, he restates himself. How does your view of evolution work 855 01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:16,960 with this sort of reading of Genesis? Uh, let you know, I'm 856 01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:23,439 not I'm not a promoter of the Lucy theory. Just OK. Yeah. 857 01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:28,600 I think that the two different sections of Genesis are talking about God's vantage point 858 01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,600 to human beings in two different relationships. So one is God's creator and then 859 01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:38,039 the other is God's relationship to man. But I'm not sure why that's a 860 01:11:38,199 --> 01:11:46,520 problem or what does do with Lucy? What's up? Peter I'm you, 861 01:11:48,319 --> 01:11:50,760 hi, j how's it going, Hey man, how you been I'm talk 862 01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,239 to you in a while. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. How are 863 01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:58,960 you doing good? What's on your mind? I've said a question about the 864 01:11:59,119 --> 01:12:03,239 term logi? Is that a turn like besides Saint Maximus? Are there other 865 01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,920 fathers who use the term logi in this in sort of the same way that 866 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:12,039 he does, or is that kind of a unique thing to the same Maximus. 867 01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:15,760 No, I mean it's the older version of the logo spermaticos, which 868 01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:20,520 predates even I mean, that's in the Presocratics. So the logo spermaticos is 869 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:26,560 a Presocratic doctrine. We find it in Justin Martyr, we find it in 870 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,039 the apologists of the first and second century, some of whom unfortunately ended up 871 01:12:30,079 --> 01:12:36,680 heterodox. Basil talks about the logi. John Damascus, I think, mentions 872 01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:42,600 it, but Maximus is the first to really go in depth. Okay, 873 01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:47,880 thanks, yeah, good question, right, So I remember, guys, 874 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:53,000 it's open for him. You can have the floor. You can make whatever 875 01:12:53,079 --> 01:12:57,600 arguments you want. Just please make arguments and make them coherent, and please 876 01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:02,640 avoid the tragcat verbal diarrhea of nonsense if you can't. Although It is pretty 877 01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,920 entertaining, and I think it helps to steer people away from the insanity of 878 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:15,399 Track out World. But Cyprian, what's up? Hey, what's up? 879 01:13:17,039 --> 01:13:21,039 What's up? Yeah? So, um, you know who Christian Wagner is. 880 01:13:21,039 --> 01:13:25,119 Oh, well you know him. Um there was like an unlisted stream 881 01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:30,039 he did on a Kyle's video, and um, there's a point in the 882 01:13:30,119 --> 01:13:35,680 stream where he makes one of Kyle's haying the essence drives from the Father, 883 01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:40,119 not the Father, from the essence, and then he just calls it nonsense. 884 01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:44,439 But I've read like Saint Gregory's Triads, and that just comes directly from 885 01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:48,159 like the last chapter. I'm just wondering, that's like talking about the order 886 01:13:48,239 --> 01:13:53,640 theology, not like the principle by which the essence like drives itself from the 887 01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:57,039 Father, right, sure. I mean the order of theology is that we 888 01:13:57,119 --> 01:14:00,680 begin with a person of the Father. And you know, it's pretty basic 889 01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:08,199 Nicene theology that the father, that the son is generated from the father's nature. 890 01:14:08,319 --> 01:14:13,079 So he receives from the Father both his personhood and his essence because he 891 01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:17,079 is the direct icon and image of the Father's nature. So you can't have 892 01:14:17,359 --> 01:14:23,159 you can't have the generation of the Son without the hypostasis of the Son also 893 01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:26,359 being generated. It's both come from the Father, and this is this is 894 01:14:26,399 --> 01:14:32,039 stated in later counsels that the existence of the Son and the existence of the 895 01:14:32,039 --> 01:14:39,479 Holy Spirit both derive their origin whole and entire from the person of the Father, 896 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,279 right, right, But that's because persons act, not natures. Natures 897 01:14:45,319 --> 01:14:51,159 exist in the mode of the persons who have those natures to act. Yep 898 01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:57,000 Um, I think I have two more questions. So there are a lot 899 01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,520 of like Muslims, and they'll always bring up like, oh, you know, 900 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,760 Jesus, he was praying to the Father in the garden of Caosemite. 901 01:15:03,199 --> 01:15:08,560 But like you think, like Jesus is like omniscient, right, So like 902 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:12,039 how would that work? And I usually think you just need like the human 903 01:15:12,159 --> 01:15:16,039 mind and the divine mind in order to have like a like a prayer relation, 904 01:15:16,159 --> 01:15:18,920 right, And so that yeah, that would just answering. Well, 905 01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:24,720 I mean, the Trinity has always been a community and a communion from all 906 01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:30,880 eternity, so there's always an exchange amongst the persons, and so the Son 907 01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:36,039 has always been relating to and loving and reflecting the Father always, And so 908 01:15:36,239 --> 01:15:41,600 when Jesus is giving us that example. It is not just proper to the 909 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:45,119 human nature and the human mind. It is he is setting an example. 910 01:15:45,279 --> 01:15:49,199 But he also has always had that derivative relationship from the Father. He always 911 01:15:49,279 --> 01:15:54,520 came forth from the Father, he always loved the Father. And by the 912 01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,439 way, if Actus purists is true in the Roman Catholic sense, then none 913 01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:02,359 of that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um. 914 01:16:02,359 --> 01:16:06,760 Okay, my last question is, Um, this might be a little bit 915 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:12,760 more like complicated, but it's on the like the covenant of works like reform 916 01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,079 theology, the image of God. How they'll say, like some of them 917 01:16:15,079 --> 01:16:18,600 will say, like okay, after the fall, you gain the sin nature 918 01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,039 and then you lose the image of God, which means you just don't have 919 01:16:21,079 --> 01:16:26,800 the capacity to receive the spirit. And so it's like a purely external thing 920 01:16:27,119 --> 01:16:30,439 when you're like you know, justified, sanctified, et cetera. Right, 921 01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:34,520 Um, And like Perry Robinson makes the argument that like that's Polagian, right, 922 01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:39,640 because it collapse the nature grace distinction. Right, Yeah, it is 923 01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:44,119 Plagian, correct. Yeah, it's the Polagian view of prelapsarian man. Correct. 924 01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:49,199 Yeah, And that just comes from like some sort of like categorical like 925 01:16:49,319 --> 01:16:55,840 monergism. Right, basically which thing the confusing and the confusing and nature in 926 01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:02,520 person comes from the default acceptance of Augustinian theology. So augustin and theology confuses 927 01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:08,319 nature in person in a triad that gets confused in a human anthropology and in 928 01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:12,520 steriology. So reform theology is kind of defaulted to adopting all of that. 929 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,840 Oh, I mean more like them, what is it the total depravity like 930 01:17:17,079 --> 01:17:23,399 losing any like capacity to like bringing the spirit outside of something like external to 931 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:26,920 us. Sure, but right, that's correct. But I'm just saying that 932 01:17:27,359 --> 01:17:31,119 all of these kind of flow out of the triadic mistake, so that the 933 01:17:31,159 --> 01:17:36,119 mistake in the triad is what leads to all the way down to the errors 934 01:17:36,159 --> 01:17:41,159 in steriology where they believe in monarchism, because then your nature has to be 935 01:17:41,199 --> 01:17:48,520 completely overcome because you're inherently in rebellion against God. Yeah. Yeah, and 936 01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:53,760 that's like the mono energism like ridiculous to make Yeah, Okay, that's it. 937 01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:56,239 I don't really have anything else to ask. Yeah, great, great 938 01:17:56,239 --> 01:17:58,119 points. And I mean yeah, if you think about the Covenant, it 939 01:17:58,159 --> 01:18:04,960 works makes no sense because it's basically also amounting to Jesus coming and merit and 940 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:10,640 created grace. And so that means the ultimately reformed theology is it's presenting another 941 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:15,720 form of created grace, which is what Roman Catholicism efficiently teaches. Jerome, 942 01:18:23,119 --> 01:18:26,279 you gotta hit I mute bro Hey, you can hear me, yes, 943 01:18:26,359 --> 01:18:33,159 sir, Hey, I'm just wondering about when debating with people from an atheist 944 01:18:33,159 --> 01:18:38,560 worldview. Um, you know, we're gonna try to point them towards Christianity 945 01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:40,960 or whatever, because if you just trying to convince them of a God, 946 01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,079 no, it's not really good enough. Most of the time. There's no 947 01:18:44,079 --> 01:18:47,760 such thing as generic God. Doesn't exist. Say that again, there's no 948 01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,319 such thing as generic God. It doesn't exist. There's no there's no such 949 01:18:51,319 --> 01:18:57,840 thing as that's natural theology by the way, right, So you can't really 950 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:03,520 do that. But one thing I have our time with these conversations is the 951 01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:10,560 discussion of creation itself, because I feel like from an atheist worldview, it's 952 01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:17,359 so hard to get past that. Everything else is impossible to convince them of. 953 01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:23,319 What are your thoughts on that you're saying, how to convince an eighth 954 01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:27,119 like, how would I argue that there is a doctrine of creation to an 955 01:19:27,119 --> 01:19:30,000 atheist. Yeah, because it's so hard for them to get past because of 956 01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,800 their worldview that that part of it. You can't even get past that part 957 01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:36,000 of it. And if you can't get past that part, how do you 958 01:19:36,039 --> 01:19:41,279 get past any other part? Yeah. So that's why presuppositionalism and tag is 959 01:19:41,319 --> 01:19:45,159 so important, because that they've gotten the cart before the horse. It's like, 960 01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:48,319 whoa wa, whoa, let's let's let's rewind here. You're gonna tell 961 01:19:48,319 --> 01:19:51,239 me about, you know, the beginning of the universe and all this stuff, 962 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:56,119 when I don't even think that you can give an account for knowledge itself. 963 01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:59,159 You see, that's a much more so. In other words, you 964 01:19:59,239 --> 01:20:02,680 gotta rather than argue with them over creation, I'm going to argue with them 965 01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:08,159 over the presuppositions of their worldview. And I'm not going to grant that they 966 01:20:08,159 --> 01:20:13,560 can even make claims about the world or history at all. Sure, let's 967 01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:17,399 say they get that far and they say, okay, I will use your 968 01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:23,520 methodology. I'll go the other sort of the other direction that I'm used to. 969 01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:29,000 If we're trying to get them convinced of Christianity, especially Orthodox Christianity, 970 01:20:29,359 --> 01:20:32,239 it's not so much that there's a God that we're trying to convince them of 971 01:20:32,279 --> 01:20:38,880 as the Christian worldview, but the story of creation at the very beginning of 972 01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:43,600 Genesis. I have a hard time getting them past that. Not just me, 973 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:46,800 but I see that online all the time, Like that's the story specifically, 974 01:20:47,199 --> 01:20:51,000 it's historical. But they can't even get past that part even if they're 975 01:20:51,039 --> 01:20:57,840 trying to believe that there's a God. Well, I mean, there's different 976 01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:02,000 ways you could take that line of argumentation. I mean, why, why 977 01:21:02,159 --> 01:21:05,640 is what they think is the case a better explanation? To me, it 978 01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:11,039 seems even more ridiculous. Yeah, it's it's not a better explanation. But 979 01:21:11,199 --> 01:21:14,359 from their worldview, they're not just going to be like, oh, well, 980 01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:16,399 okay, well let's put it. Let's put it this way. So 981 01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:19,439 like, right, I mean, there's a there is a process to this, 982 01:21:20,119 --> 01:21:25,279 even though I mean, even though the worldview itself is a whole system, 983 01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:30,039 most people don't immediately adopt the whole worldview in their chronological existential experience. 984 01:21:30,119 --> 01:21:33,920 That's true. So it's true that you know, a person might first begin 985 01:21:34,039 --> 01:21:38,239 to think, maybe there's a God, and maybe there's design, maybe there's 986 01:21:38,319 --> 01:21:43,840 purpose, and they're not necessarily adopting the whole Christian system. That, by 987 01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:47,199 the way, doesn't make natural theology too true because they're because they're going through 988 01:21:47,199 --> 01:21:53,039 this process piecemeal. That doesn't make natural theology the case as if those things 989 01:21:53,079 --> 01:21:57,680 are true because a person chronologically piecemeal goes through that that has nothing to do 990 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:02,039 with what's objectively the case. That's confusing your own temporal discovery of things with 991 01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:05,239 the fact that this is objectively the case. I know you're not saying that, 992 01:22:05,319 --> 01:22:11,600 but so yeah, we might have to, you know, work through 993 01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,840 a lot of different topics over a long time. In fact, it took 994 01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:19,760 me a long time before I decided that the theistic evolution narrative made no sense, 995 01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:24,720 right, I held off on that question until I spent a good time 996 01:22:25,239 --> 01:22:30,319 reading about it and hearing the various positions and argument. So, yeah, 997 01:22:30,319 --> 01:22:32,319 it's true that not everybody's going to overnight accept it. So but I wouldn't 998 01:22:32,319 --> 01:22:36,760 worry too much about that because I think over time, people if they're honest 999 01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:42,039 and since here they're going to come to the right conclusions, they're going to 1000 01:22:42,119 --> 01:22:45,640 see the problems in the evolutionary narratives. So I wouldn't worry too much about 1001 01:22:45,319 --> 01:22:49,960 trying to get them to immediately accept the entire worldview. It's enough, I 1002 01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:58,319 think, to critique their basic presubpositions and get them understanding that their materialistic atheist 1003 01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:01,800 narrative can't even do anything. It can't give an account for ethics, knowledge, 1004 01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,560 metaphysics, You can't even make sentences in that world be if they were 1005 01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:09,560 consistent. So if you could get them thinking that, don't worry too much 1006 01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,920 about also trying to convince them immediately the doction of creation. That'll come down 1007 01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:17,199 the road. But if you're debating somebody specifically on the doction of creation, 1008 01:23:17,239 --> 01:23:23,760 there are philosophical arguments that you can present, like pointing out the you know, 1009 01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:30,479 like if if the universe has always just been here right, then there's 1010 01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:34,319 not really any good account for why there's change or why there's movement at all. 1011 01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:40,079 So you could utilize some kinds of arguments like that. I mean, 1012 01:23:40,279 --> 01:23:45,319 there are ways you can go about critiquing It just depends on what specifically what 1013 01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:48,800 their position is like, are they saying that no, it's the Big Bang, 1014 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,359 or they saying no, it's the universe was eas eternal, or there's 1015 01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:59,159 different philosophical routes you can take to critique that. And you know, humans, 1016 01:23:59,199 --> 01:24:03,880 for example, happen to be constituted such that they learn and experience things 1017 01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:09,079 in beginning, middle, and end. So there is the structure to how 1018 01:24:09,119 --> 01:24:13,560 we learn things beginning, middle and end. But if, for example, 1019 01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:17,560 the universe has always forever been here, then there's not actually a basis to 1020 01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:26,439 believe in the transcendental presupposition of time right, which is beginning, which is 1021 01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:30,479 movement from past, present, future, beginning, middle end. You see 1022 01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:34,359 how there's a there's a structure there. And even in language, for example, 1023 01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:41,600 every linguistic communication is it moves from beginning, middle, and end. 1024 01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,359 And you can show this philosophically. There's actually some really good essays that show 1025 01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:50,880 the presuppositions the transiddle categories necessary for language to be possible. And one of 1026 01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:55,920 those is the movement, a movement and time from beginning, middle to end. 1027 01:24:55,960 --> 01:24:59,399 Every conversation that's meaningful has a beginning, middle, and and end. 1028 01:25:00,079 --> 01:25:03,800 In fact, I think it's even Alistair McIntyre, the famous virtue ethosist, 1029 01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:12,960 He has a whole essay on the patterns of every every linguistic communication event okay, 1030 01:25:13,279 --> 01:25:15,960 beginning, middle, and end. So if there is no beginning, 1031 01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,279 middle, and end. Ever, then we don't really have a basis to 1032 01:25:18,319 --> 01:25:21,680 believe in beginning, middle, and in our conversations. And if our conversations 1033 01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:26,039 don't have beginning, middle, and end, then everything is kind of illusory. 1034 01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:30,159 The movement, the change is illusory, you see. And some Eastern 1035 01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:34,359 philosophies go in that direction. But maybe they believe in the Big Bang. 1036 01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:38,000 That's a different course of critique that you could do. I mean, it 1037 01:25:38,079 --> 01:25:42,680 just depends on the atheist. You need to know exactly what kind of an 1038 01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,319 atheist thing they're presenting, I think to really critique it. Good, right, 1039 01:25:46,359 --> 01:25:49,600 Well, yeah, these are just my moron friends. So it's it's 1040 01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:57,479 really not very difficult using your using tag and other arguments. I've got them 1041 01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,319 to like be on the ropes with their atheists view. But it's the actual 1042 01:26:01,279 --> 01:26:04,520 creation story itself that they always do. Well, that's really yeah, that's 1043 01:26:05,239 --> 01:26:10,239 defaultedness and say, well that can't I can't believe anything else there because that 1044 01:26:10,279 --> 01:26:13,880 can't be true. That's I know, it's not really valid argument from their 1045 01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:15,119 side. Well, that's the thing, is right, So, I mean, 1046 01:26:15,159 --> 01:26:19,680 creation is not a doctrine of natural theology. Creation is according to Hebrews 1047 01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:28,000 a doctrine of divine revelation creation X Neilo is we know that not by speculation 1048 01:26:28,079 --> 01:26:30,119 deduction, but by divine revelation, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1049 01:26:30,359 --> 01:26:34,560 so yeah, I mean it's it's like Saint Justin Popovich says, like, 1050 01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:41,680 you can't believe these things and truly know these things without repentance because they're not 1051 01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:46,399 actually ultimately intellectual problems. You can point out the intellectual problems and dilemmas, 1052 01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:51,840 but just knowing the problems aren't actually enough to get people to change or to 1053 01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:57,520 get them to believe like they have to repent. So that so this is 1054 01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,960 a radical position here that a lot of people don't understand. They don't believe, 1055 01:27:00,039 --> 01:27:08,079 like man's problem is not intellectual, it's moral. Yeah, anyway, 1056 01:27:08,159 --> 01:27:11,800 hopefully that's helpful, but it really just you just gotta yeah, I just 1057 01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,359 gotta ask a lot of questions to get the atheist guy to like lay out 1058 01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:19,439 exactly what his worldview is, and usually they'll just say a bunch of ridiculous, 1059 01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:26,560 contradictory nonsense. I got, let me go t T put a little 1060 01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:30,560 music on. We'll keep going here because we haven't even gone two hours yet. 1061 01:27:30,960 --> 01:28:53,479 But let me use the little girls room and I'll be right backs spelling 1062 01:28:57,000 --> 01:29:23,439 and staying all right, I'm back. I had to go little girls room. 1063 01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:27,319 Hey, go T T. Jamie's in there grinding up the coffee for 1064 01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:30,600 me. What's up? We got still got four hundred people that we got 1065 01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:35,159 up to like five hundred. We still got about four hundred over here, 1066 01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:43,560 so let's see. We got requests. Zach, next up? What's up? 1067 01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:56,600 Zach? Hey? Jakie here, Yeah, hey, my So my 1068 01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:00,199 question, So I just came out of the Protestant world and your your videos 1069 01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:03,600 and all that has been super helpful to leading me to Orthodoxes. Just want 1070 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:06,199 to say thank you for that. I'm becoming more and more convinced but every 1071 01:30:06,279 --> 01:30:12,239 day. But my question is what advice would you would you have for continuing 1072 01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:15,920 to interact with people in those heterodox to worlds? Right, Because the more 1073 01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:19,359 that I become convinced of Orthodoxy, the more I realize that they're they're mutually 1074 01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:24,159 exclusive, right, these these are two different religions, and so with people 1075 01:30:24,199 --> 01:30:26,479 I care about obviously I don't, I mean, I care about the truth, 1076 01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:28,920 but like, how what advice would you give on how to relate to 1077 01:30:29,039 --> 01:30:31,720 them and have conversations with them. And yeah, I would say that, 1078 01:30:32,119 --> 01:30:38,439 um, tailor your discussions to the people because you know them well. Don't 1079 01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:41,640 try to debate with your parents or your family members or you're never going to 1080 01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:49,079 convince like a parent through argumentation and logic. Try to influence them in subtle 1081 01:30:49,159 --> 01:30:54,800 ways. Um. If it's your compatriots, people your age and you guys 1082 01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:58,199 like to debate, then have at it, right, but just note note 1083 01:30:58,319 --> 01:31:00,800 the relation that you have to the individual before trying to, you know, 1084 01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:05,720 engage at a confrontational level or whatever. If you're if it's your bros, 1085 01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:11,359 you know they can handle that. Um. But I would also say that 1086 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:15,640 although it's natural for us as we work through these issues to want to debate 1087 01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:20,159 them a lot, don't go too heavy into trying to debate them until you 1088 01:31:21,119 --> 01:31:27,039 spend a good amount of time in catechy sis and learning the theology for a 1089 01:31:27,119 --> 01:31:30,439 few years, and then you know, you'll be a little more equipped because 1090 01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,920 you need to kind of go through the process of you know, living this 1091 01:31:34,119 --> 01:31:36,640 and whatnot and being in the church and being in the liturgy for a while. 1092 01:31:38,319 --> 01:31:44,479 Because at first you're going to be you know, super zealous and you're 1093 01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:46,880 gonna be like, you know, a new convert with that new convert zeal 1094 01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:51,199 But yeah, don't press up your mom. Somebody said the chat exactly. 1095 01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:55,680 It's not gonna be. It's not gonna get you anywhere. Um. And 1096 01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:59,479 then you're gonna encounter issues, right, You're gonna start having your problems in 1097 01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:01,239 the Orthodox such, you're gonna have struggles with people. You're gonna have issues 1098 01:32:01,319 --> 01:32:08,600 with priests maybe you know who knows. But take your time and be really 1099 01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:10,760 slow about it, is what I would say, Believe it or not. 1100 01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:19,079 That's my advice to that question. But so, soul, did you want 1101 01:32:19,119 --> 01:32:21,119 to make another comment? By the way, I wasn't trying to be rude. 1102 01:32:21,159 --> 01:32:26,199 I was just I was frustrated trying to express what I was trying to 1103 01:32:26,279 --> 01:32:29,640 say. I wasn't mad at you. Oh you're fine, man. No, 1104 01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:30,840 I didn't take it. I didn't take it a bad way at all. 1105 01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:33,880 Um. The guy brought up evolution to you a second ago, and 1106 01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:38,880 I've had a thought on and I wanted to run it past you. So 1107 01:32:39,319 --> 01:32:42,800 so I think it's al Kripke who does the whole water is h two? 1108 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:46,920 Oh thing are you familiar with like the phillis? I'm not familiar with like 1109 01:32:47,079 --> 01:32:51,439 philosophical responses to that and stuff. So I don't know a lot about Kripkey. 1110 01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:55,079 I mean, father Deacon would be a better person. Who I mean, 1111 01:32:55,119 --> 01:32:58,279 he studied Saul Kripkey pretty in detail. But um so, no, 1112 01:32:58,399 --> 01:33:00,359 I don't know about this argument. Okay, Well, I was just gonna 1113 01:33:00,399 --> 01:33:04,119 well, pretty much the gist of it is, he says water is H 1114 01:33:04,239 --> 01:33:09,600 two oh, and then he uses the law of identity to essentially say, 1115 01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:15,680 in a modal sense, that's true across all possible worlds. So if there 1116 01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,720 is water in some other possible world, right, then it's H two oh. 1117 01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:24,800 And that's because you find that out. Since you find that out through 1118 01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:28,439 observation. You don't know that a priori that water is H two oh. 1119 01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:30,439 Well, this sounds like the I mean, I don't I don't know. 1120 01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:34,119 I didn't know Kripkey made this argument. But I've made the argument about you 1121 01:33:34,239 --> 01:33:39,600 know, just I would argue I've argued against multiverse on the base of the 1122 01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:44,960 live identity. Yeah, I'm not really talking about a multiverse though, I'm 1123 01:33:45,039 --> 01:33:48,319 just talking about the notion. I'm just using possible world se Mannix to talk 1124 01:33:48,319 --> 01:33:51,399 about I know that you're not saying, I know you're not talking about multiverse. 1125 01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:55,560 I'm just saying that I'm familiar with kind of what you're saying because of 1126 01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:59,880 the argument I've used against the multiverse. Okay, so I was one. 1127 01:34:00,039 --> 01:34:03,319 And if you think that you can flip this onto evolution and say that like 1128 01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:09,960 something like a category like a dog, right is, you don't know everything 1129 01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:15,960 about a dog and dogs until you've experienced many particulars amongst the community of dogs, 1130 01:34:15,159 --> 01:34:19,039 right, And so it seems like you could almost use this to argue 1131 01:34:19,159 --> 01:34:27,239 that categories in general are the same across possible world. Does that make sense? 1132 01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:32,680 Yeah? I think that when atheists evolutionary materialists type people deny any kind 1133 01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:40,159 of actually existing classes of things, that this would amount to some form of 1134 01:34:40,239 --> 01:34:44,680 denying some kind of law of identity. Right, I think? So is 1135 01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:46,720 that what you're saying? Yep, that's exactly No. I think I think 1136 01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:51,079 you'd absolutely absolutely make that argument. I think, you know, and other 1137 01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:59,520 arguments similar to that kind of hinge on nominalism. I mean, atheism is 1138 01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:02,000 pretty much nine percent committed to nominalism, and I mean it's kind of a 1139 01:35:02,039 --> 01:35:05,279 similar type of argument. It's not law of identity, but it's saying, 1140 01:35:05,319 --> 01:35:09,520 well, there's no classes of things, there's no universals, then you're already 1141 01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:14,119 stuck basically in eventually the destruction of knowledge as a whole. So yeah, 1142 01:35:14,119 --> 01:35:16,560 I think you could definitely go that route. All right, sweet? Yeah, 1143 01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:20,560 good point, Peter. What's up? You want to make another comment? 1144 01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,079 All right? Can you hear me again? Yeah? Cool? Are 1145 01:35:30,119 --> 01:35:35,840 you still taking like geopolitical type questions today? Sure? Um, it's funny. 1146 01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:40,760 This was This is actually something I was hanging out with my former priest's 1147 01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:45,960 son, who's like moderately red pills you could say, like on the scale 1148 01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:47,520 of one to ten, like one being the least tending the most, he's 1149 01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:50,199 like a six or seven. And he was asking me, like, from 1150 01:35:50,239 --> 01:35:56,319 the perspective of like, you know, Klaus and company, why bugs? 1151 01:35:56,520 --> 01:36:00,439 Like why you know, why would why? Specifically? I mean I get 1152 01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:02,800 and he gets like why you know meat would be banned? You know, 1153 01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:08,880 like the rationale from their perspective, but why but like why bugs? So 1154 01:36:09,359 --> 01:36:15,279 one solution to that is that a lot of these celebrities and weirdos uh have 1155 01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:20,159 already put a lot of money into the bug food companies, So there's a 1156 01:36:21,079 --> 01:36:27,560 gaming the market kind of racket involved in this um and then more speculatively, 1157 01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:30,680 I think we could say it's also kind of like a middle finger to the 1158 01:36:31,079 --> 01:36:35,600 to the working classes and to the poor that you know, you know, 1159 01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:41,399 it's like it's like a temple of doom when they get to the Indian village 1160 01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:45,600 and right, and and they're like they're trying to give Willie Scott a bunch 1161 01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,479 of plate of bugs, and it's like, uh, it's rubbing your face 1162 01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,840 in that kind of thing. Okay, Yeah, because I knew about um, 1163 01:36:53,079 --> 01:36:56,720 you know, all the big time like celebrity investments and things like like 1164 01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:01,359 beyond meat impossible meat that wasn't But those are more like you know, soy 1165 01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:06,520 you know, plant seed oil slop as opposed to like from an actual insect. 1166 01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:11,359 Yeah, and I mean there could be also you know, the Carson 1167 01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:17,680 Carson carstogen carcinogen effect, right, definitely, which could relate to other more 1168 01:37:18,079 --> 01:37:23,760 malicious nefarious motives. Yeah, okay, cool, thanks, Yeah, a 1169 01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:32,359 good question. Uh, let's see, let's find somebody who has not come 1170 01:37:32,439 --> 01:37:44,760 on yet today by the boy tech. What's up dude? You just hit 1171 01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,840 mute? Hello? Hello, here are good? Yeah, what's up? 1172 01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:53,119 Hey? Jay gould to speak to you for the first time. Actually just 1173 01:37:53,279 --> 01:37:59,239 downloaded Twitter to uh ask you this this question. All right, here we 1174 01:37:59,319 --> 01:38:02,439 go. So, um, yeah, I know whoops that allotted to better? 1175 01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:08,920 Um. So I know that us as Christians with the fallowed to morality 1176 01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:13,039 by going to God. You know, he's the one that claims for morality. 1177 01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:18,439 But when I'm talking to my more secular agnostics and atheist friends, there's 1178 01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:24,199 a difficulty to see good versus evil. So it might be a little bit 1179 01:38:24,239 --> 01:38:29,279 of a broad broad question. But like what's is there any way, uh 1180 01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:33,039 that you explain, like how we can clearly see good versus evil? Like 1181 01:38:33,119 --> 01:38:38,680 I have some radical ways, but they're they're a little bit like like obvious 1182 01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:42,720 obvious examples, like that'd be crazy if they agree to it. But like, 1183 01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:49,279 is there any uh discourses or explanations that you give to like why we 1184 01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:55,239 can pretty much be starting for good and evil in the world or what do 1185 01:38:55,359 --> 01:38:58,760 you, uh, what's your explanation on that? How do you see it? 1186 01:38:59,159 --> 01:39:03,439 I mean, good seems to me to be the most fundamental presubpositional category 1187 01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:06,920 necessary, right, the good. If there's no such thing as the good, 1188 01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:13,720 then really all value judgments are impossible, they don't mean anything. So 1189 01:39:14,119 --> 01:39:18,399 there's got to be some kind of objective good in a philosophical sense, not 1190 01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:24,720 just to have ethics, but to make truth claims. I mean to say 1191 01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:29,920 that one thing is true versus not true, or versus the false, necessarily 1192 01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,279 relates to the good because it means there's a sort of an assumption there that 1193 01:39:33,359 --> 01:39:39,399 we ought to choose the true versus the false. So I mean the good 1194 01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:45,039 like the true, These are such fundamentally absolutely necessary, not just ethical but 1195 01:39:45,359 --> 01:39:55,039 epistemological and metaphysical categories that again, all meaningful communication and human predication would be 1196 01:39:55,159 --> 01:39:59,600 impossible, and I say impossible in the sense of being coherent, being meaningful, 1197 01:40:00,079 --> 01:40:03,640 being justified if there was no such thing as the good. I mean 1198 01:40:03,680 --> 01:40:06,439 that to me is that that's like a super very awesome way to put it, 1199 01:40:06,479 --> 01:40:10,680 because yeah, everything goes back to like, hey, let's find truth, 1200 01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:13,600 let's find something that's actually practical. Well, I mean, think about 1201 01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:21,359 all science. All science is predicated on the search for verifiable correct theories and 1202 01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:29,000 data versus unverifiable false data. That's the true versus the false. That's choosing 1203 01:40:29,239 --> 01:40:33,560 the right one versus the wrong one. So you can't actually separate science from 1204 01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:40,119 value judgments as much as they think that they can. That is, that's 1205 01:40:40,119 --> 01:40:44,000 a fantastic way to explain it. I love it. I'm gonna take a 1206 01:40:44,079 --> 01:40:46,279 note on it. And I have a second last question for you. Okay, 1207 01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:53,239 So I come from a polygamist Mormon background, right, and I disagree 1208 01:40:53,319 --> 01:41:00,520 obviously I disagree with their polygamist discussions, but you know they usually default to 1209 01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:02,960 like, oh, well, David and Solomon had a bunch of concubine so 1210 01:41:03,439 --> 01:41:08,000 why can't I, as a man of God also have them? How do 1211 01:41:08,079 --> 01:41:12,800 you respond to these things, because like I mean, polygamy, polygamy doesn't 1212 01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:15,279 I mean, first of all, like, yeah, you gotta be a 1213 01:41:15,319 --> 01:41:19,079 good man, which many men aren't. And this was David and Solomon, 1214 01:41:19,119 --> 01:41:24,920 Like what's your explanation? But yeah, I think that in the Old Old 1215 01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:30,479 Testament period, God tolerated a lot of things in terms of morals and ethics 1216 01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:35,399 that he eventually wanted to kind of pedagogically gradually lead people to not do anymore. 1217 01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:43,319 So, you know, slavery, you know the sort of barbaric things 1218 01:41:43,359 --> 01:41:46,359 that we see that are into at times tolerated. You know that many of 1219 01:41:46,359 --> 01:41:50,720 the Church fathers argue that that was really God sort of gradually drawing man back 1220 01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:56,159 to the calling that is more like what we see in Genesis. And so 1221 01:41:56,640 --> 01:42:02,319 Jesus's law that he lays down is the restorative Eden law. Right, So 1222 01:42:02,399 --> 01:42:05,600 he's basically saying, let's let's go back to this. This is going to 1223 01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:13,600 be the norm for the church because that's what I originally had intended for Adam 1224 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:16,680 and even the gardens. So the church is the new Eden. It's the 1225 01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:21,560 restored Eden, so to speak. And that's why, you know, you 1226 01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:28,119 have things that are tolerated but are not the ideal situation. So it's true. 1227 01:42:28,159 --> 01:42:30,199 I mean there's other things too that you know, we're tolerated in the 1228 01:42:30,239 --> 01:42:33,399 Old Testament period, like slavery that we don't typically think are normative for the 1229 01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:38,760 New Testament period. Yeah, it did, um, you know, not 1230 01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:43,800 condoning it, but it did make sense back then because it was a completely 1231 01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:48,840 brutal, animalistic world where death or survival, right, so like, and 1232 01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:53,159 everybody didn't know how to read, most people, so it was more it 1233 01:42:53,279 --> 01:42:56,680 wasn't like how movies make it seem. It was more like servants, you 1234 01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:00,520 know, you did what the master said, right, Yeah, obviously that's 1235 01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:03,439 a from in a more uneducated world. So that's how you you know, 1236 01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:10,000 used for pedagogically started progressing to a more civilized state, right, exactly, 1237 01:43:10,199 --> 01:43:14,439 correct? All right, all right, I goes analogous to polygamy. Like 1238 01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,840 David and Solomon, they had concubines, you know, got allowed it, 1239 01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:24,560 but he's not promoting it to to all these horny men you know that are 1240 01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:29,119 just making a mess out of out of families out here. Yeah. I 1241 01:43:29,199 --> 01:43:31,960 mean again, there's other institutions in the ancient world like that, like the 1242 01:43:32,079 --> 01:43:39,680 slave trade, that you know, couldn't immediately be completely revolutionized, right, 1243 01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:45,439 and so I think that that's why there's a gradual pedagogical uh leading of men 1244 01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:56,520 to a higher calling so to speak. Eve Monarca, what's up? Hello? 1245 01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,119 Yep, Yeah, So I had all I wanted to talk about the 1246 01:44:01,399 --> 01:44:06,279 Muslims worshiping the same God a home with Catholic Yeah, so how would you 1247 01:44:06,319 --> 01:44:12,680 all them differ? So in Acts seventeen, when Paul says that on one 1248 01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:18,680 of their altars they they worship God would held on them. They worship God 1249 01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:24,279 even though they don't know about him, Right, that doesn't prove that doesn't 1250 01:44:24,359 --> 01:44:28,399 prove natural theology, though in the Roman Catholic sense, because Paul says that 1251 01:44:29,359 --> 01:44:31,479 in one sense you know the true God, but in another sense you don't 1252 01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:36,720 know him. So the statue that he's pointing to is the one that they 1253 01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:42,319 don't know. And the irony is that you're that's the one that's the true 1254 01:44:42,359 --> 01:44:45,560 God, the one that you don't know. So it's actually an argument against 1255 01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:49,079 natural theology. And you'll notice in that chapter Paul doesn't say anything like what 1256 01:44:49,199 --> 01:44:53,840 a Roman Catholic proponent of natural theology would do. He doesn't say, look, 1257 01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:56,720 we all have a common idea of God, we all believe in one 1258 01:44:57,039 --> 01:45:01,680 ultimate source. We all believe in the teleological argument, the cosmological argument. 1259 01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:06,079 There's nothing in that chapter or in Romans One at all like the way that 1260 01:45:06,279 --> 01:45:12,880 Roman Catholics go about doing. They're so called natural theological apologetic. Paul preaches 1261 01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:18,399 the resurrection and he says, the word Jesus is near your hearts. The 1262 01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:23,720 word is near your hearts. How is that That's not possible? In Roman 1263 01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:29,600 Caloic natural theology, the logos, the word Jesus is not near anybody's hearts 1264 01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:33,159 in the Roman Catholic system. In fact, the Roman Catholic system doesn't believe 1265 01:45:33,239 --> 01:45:40,279 in the heart the noose. The Orthodox system does believe in the heart or 1266 01:45:40,319 --> 01:45:44,880 the noos. It's a specifically Orthodox doctrine. So everything in that passage is 1267 01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:54,439 completely Orthodox and absolutely not Roman Calviic natural theology. You win the statement one. 1268 01:45:54,479 --> 01:46:01,439 It says that the Muslims worship what do we worship? Do we worship 1269 01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:04,880 an absolutely simple Unitarian thing? Or do we worship the Trinity? Who is 1270 01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:12,039 God? Yeah? No, I'm asking you who is it? Okay? 1271 01:46:12,159 --> 01:46:15,840 Right, so it is not. So let's say, between Basil and Eunomius, 1272 01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:18,800 do they worship the same God? I don't know that much about church 1273 01:46:18,920 --> 01:46:24,159 history. Okay. So Eunomius is a radical Unitarian Rian. Do they worship 1274 01:46:24,199 --> 01:46:28,479 the same God according to Basil? I don't know. I don't know what 1275 01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:31,479 Basil said about that. Okay, So he wrote a famous book against the 1276 01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:38,159 Eunomians. So no, the Kappadocians fight their whole life against Eunomians. Yeah, 1277 01:46:38,199 --> 01:46:44,479 okay. Eunomianism is pretty similar to Islam. Okay. So would we 1278 01:46:44,680 --> 01:46:48,760 argue that Basil and Unomius believe in the same God because they both believe in 1279 01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:56,000 monotheism of course not. Yea ergo between a Mouslim and an Orthodox person. 1280 01:46:56,439 --> 01:47:02,079 There's no common God. I'm taking the perspective from Paul says like, this 1281 01:47:02,279 --> 01:47:05,760 God whom you worship without knowing is the one I'm telling you about. And 1282 01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:10,279 they were polytheists. You know they had crazy gods? Did you? Did 1283 01:47:10,319 --> 01:47:12,800 you not hear what I said? He's saying, the one that you don't 1284 01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:16,840 know is the true God. You don't know him. Yeah, but it 1285 01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:21,600 says they worshiped him. They have a statue to an unknown God. And 1286 01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:26,560 the Pagans did this just in case. Doesn't mean that they know God. 1287 01:47:27,399 --> 01:47:30,239 They do not have a saving knowledge of God. It's like Paul, for 1288 01:47:30,359 --> 01:47:35,680 polytheist even says that they worship the one God that we um that Paul worship. 1289 01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:40,279 Do you not hear what I said? No, I see what you're 1290 01:47:40,279 --> 01:47:43,439 saying. You did about him? They like, why about him? That? 1291 01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:47,720 What's the name of the God of the Old Testament? No? In 1292 01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:54,119 the passages with the statute the unknown God? Okay? So is he know 1293 01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:59,079 no? Okay, so then they don't worship the same god is Paul. 1294 01:48:00,359 --> 01:48:03,680 Yeah, but paulse is saying that they worship him without knowing. So it's 1295 01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:08,720 like their knowledge is faulty, just like in Islam, but they still worship 1296 01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:14,079 him. So again, yeah, you could say in a sense they do. 1297 01:48:14,239 --> 01:48:15,880 In a sense they don't. But the point of the passage is that 1298 01:48:16,039 --> 01:48:20,359 you don't know the true God, but he's near you, even in your 1299 01:48:20,399 --> 01:48:25,840 hearts. And you're saying that um vaticant who makes it out to be like 1300 01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:29,800 they do know all they do? Don't do know? Vatican two says the 1301 01:48:30,119 --> 01:48:34,319 Muslims together with us worship the One True God. Yeah, they don't. 1302 01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:40,520 That's different from what Paul saying when he says you worship this God. I 1303 01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:45,920 mean, I've just illustrated this to you with Basil and the Eunomians. Yeah, 1304 01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:50,680 did you not understand it? I understand it because you don't know they're 1305 01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:58,039 lying about they don't know him, lying about his name. It's not look 1306 01:48:58,119 --> 01:49:00,520 so in one sense there's a knowledge, in another sense there's not. Right, 1307 01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:06,319 So if I if I say uh, if I say, um, 1308 01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,720 let's say somebody doesn't know me, but they've heard about me, right, 1309 01:49:12,720 --> 01:49:15,720 or they know that there's a guy on the internet who makes these arguments, 1310 01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:19,039 right, and they might know a few things about me, Right, does 1311 01:49:19,079 --> 01:49:23,640 that mean that they know me. No, No, I'm awesome. I'm 1312 01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:27,479 not arguing that they know they know God, because it's true, they're really 1313 01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:31,439 far from that, you know. But um, it's equivalenting, well, 1314 01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:34,800 how do you worship something you don't know? I mean, Paul said that 1315 01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:38,600 they were worshiping something that they don't know. You know, again, you 1316 01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:41,119 don't understand that. It's a use of irony, right, So he's saying 1317 01:49:41,199 --> 01:49:45,680 that you have a statue to an unknown God, and he's saying, ironically, 1318 01:49:46,159 --> 01:49:51,279 that's the one I'm telling you is the true God. Yeah, yeah, 1319 01:49:51,319 --> 01:49:54,720 I know. No, you don't because you're not listening to what I 1320 01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:58,760 said. So you're basically telling me that you know me as and Basil worship 1321 01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:03,800 the same God. I'm I don't know about that specifically. You don't understand 1322 01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:11,479 the analogy to what I'm to to this. Yeah, yeah, I'm I 1323 01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:14,399 see what you're saying, because they have a completely different idea of God that 1324 01:50:14,439 --> 01:50:21,640 they're appealing to. Okay, so some commonalities don't equate to same referent right, 1325 01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:28,239 So let's take monotheism. For un orthodox Christian, monotheism refers to the 1326 01:50:28,319 --> 01:50:38,279 Trinity. Okay, for a Muslim Monotheism is exclusive and not trinitarian. So 1327 01:50:38,439 --> 01:50:43,279 the fact that they both have the same referent Monotheism does not equate to in 1328 01:50:43,399 --> 01:50:46,840 any way the same God or the same reference because there's some overlap because they're 1329 01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:53,880 mutually exclusive categories and systems. Does that make sense? I agree that it's 1330 01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:58,520 not like um, the knowledge of God isn't there. But I'm just trying 1331 01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:00,479 to draw a parallel. You know, where it to you worship him without 1332 01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:04,119 knowing in Acts seventeen. Yeah, and you're saying that they do know him. 1333 01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:10,840 The point of the passage is that you don't know him. Yeah, 1334 01:51:11,119 --> 01:51:14,560 but also says that they worshiped him. That I mean, but they worship 1335 01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:17,199 what they don't know. So you keep saying this point it doesn't matter. 1336 01:51:17,840 --> 01:51:26,000 That doesn't equate to Orthodox and Muslims having the same God. Do you not 1337 01:51:26,159 --> 01:51:30,640 see why? No? I understand that there's like, in one way they 1338 01:51:30,720 --> 01:51:34,800 worship him, but in another way they're completely wrong. And I don't think 1339 01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:41,760 that Vatican too says anywhere that they know all about him or that they're fine 1340 01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:46,840 because Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God at all. Because of 1341 01:51:47,279 --> 01:51:51,880 you understand, you're you're making a mistake because you think that because there's some 1342 01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:57,079 overlap, it's the same reference when it doesn't matter. If we if we 1343 01:51:57,199 --> 01:52:00,760 had if a Muslim believed in nine out of ten attributes of God that we 1344 01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:06,199 do, and one of those attributes is that God has triune, that's enough 1345 01:52:06,239 --> 01:52:11,640 to make it mutually exclusive. They're not the same. So how would you 1346 01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:15,840 differ on that from the Greeks having, you know, hundreds of gods and 1347 01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:19,439 Paul saying that they worship him as this God that he's trying to tell them 1348 01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:30,079 about. It doesn't matter whether it's polytheism or unitarianism. But Paul uses the 1349 01:52:30,159 --> 01:52:32,760 claim that they have like mutual worship. You worship him, I worship you 1350 01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:38,239 know. It's not it doesn't matter. It's not acceptable worship, right, 1351 01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:42,079 Yeah, And so Vaticanto doesn't say true worship. It just says now, 1352 01:52:42,159 --> 01:52:45,840 actually it does. It says that Hindus also love God. Yeah, but 1353 01:52:45,920 --> 01:52:50,000 they don't say it's true. It says Hindus love God. It says that 1354 01:52:50,159 --> 01:52:55,600 Hindus have a an acceptance with God based on their Hindu faith. It says 1355 01:52:55,640 --> 01:53:00,760 that in nostratt Yeah, and you just keep saying yeah and no, they 1356 01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:05,359 don't. There's only Hinduism isn't too far from what the Greeks were doing. 1357 01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:09,760 And this is correct. All said to the Greeks that they were worshiping him. 1358 01:53:09,800 --> 01:53:14,199 But you don't know about him. You can't worship what you don't know. 1359 01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:17,039 The point of the passage is that you're blinded, and its irony. 1360 01:53:18,159 --> 01:53:21,119 You don't understand that. You just keep going back to the word worship, 1361 01:53:21,279 --> 01:53:25,000 as if that means that they know him and they worship the same God as 1362 01:53:25,119 --> 01:53:27,800 us. They don't know why. No, I don't think that they know 1363 01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:31,359 him. I think then the worship doesn't do anything. That's the point. 1364 01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:34,399 Yeah, I mean you could say, like the worship, I don't know 1365 01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:39,319 how God sees their worship and what sends it at all. But but we 1366 01:53:39,479 --> 01:53:43,840 do know that because of the example that I gave with the Unitarians. It 1367 01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:47,920 doesn't matter whether it's monotheism or polytheism. It doesn't matter because the only acceptable 1368 01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:53,640 worship is of the trying God. You can't worship. Listen, let me 1369 01:53:53,680 --> 01:53:57,399 give an ex illustration of what I'm trying to say. If I say I 1370 01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:00,840 believe in one God and you say I also believe in one God and let's 1371 01:54:00,840 --> 01:54:04,840 say your God is the Trinity, My god is the one God that is 1372 01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:12,039 Satan. We both worship one god. Do we then worship the same god? 1373 01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:19,159 Obviously? Not? There you go. And so now you're just gonna 1374 01:54:19,159 --> 01:54:21,279 say, I see what you're saying, then repeat your same point for the 1375 01:54:21,319 --> 01:54:26,720 twenty time. I won't repeat it anymore because, um, I mean, 1376 01:54:26,720 --> 01:54:30,920 you pretty explain explain you, you know, explain your position. So if 1377 01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:32,960 I did it. So let's say let's say you're the god that has the 1378 01:54:33,039 --> 01:54:38,520 one God that's Satan, okay, and I'm the one God that's the Trinity. 1379 01:54:39,439 --> 01:54:44,640 And we're having a dialogue, and I say, I'm going to illustrate 1380 01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:48,760 to you in your theism that your system is dumb. And I say, 1381 01:54:49,439 --> 01:54:56,000 this one god that you call Satan, that is Jesus, not Satan, 1382 01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:00,600 and you worship him without knowing him. What you're grasping after for Satan is 1383 01:55:00,680 --> 01:55:06,000 actually fulfilled in Christ. That is what Paul's doing to the to the polytheists. 1384 01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:13,399 Okay, do you see you are grasping for Jesus because you want an 1385 01:55:13,479 --> 01:55:19,039 ultimate power. As a Satanist, even though it's worshiping Satan, you're ultimately 1386 01:55:19,119 --> 01:55:24,560 grasping for Jesus without knowing it. You don't know Jesus. That is what 1387 01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:28,840 Paul's doing. He's not saying that we all worship the same God because there's 1388 01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:34,600 common terms. All of natural theology is built on the word concept fallacy that 1389 01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:39,359 because there's common terms, we all worship the same reference. It's a very 1390 01:55:39,479 --> 01:55:48,920 simple silly mistake. Yeah, I would just distinguished worshiped from belief and whatever. 1391 01:55:49,279 --> 01:55:54,199 It doesn't matter saving worship knowledge. It doesn't matter. Man, whatever 1392 01:55:55,119 --> 01:55:57,720 I'm I'm getting frustrated, apologize. I'm not mad at you. It's just 1393 01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:01,760 like can be will not understand this, It's not that hard. Let's give 1394 01:56:01,800 --> 01:56:08,720 an easier example. A Mormon says, I believe in Jesus, I believe 1395 01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:11,680 in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe the same thing as 1396 01:56:11,720 --> 01:56:15,960 you Orthodox Trinitarian, No, you don't. Just because you have the same 1397 01:56:16,039 --> 01:56:24,239 words does not mean the reference is the same. It's no different than the 1398 01:56:24,319 --> 01:56:33,880 mistake when people say the Old Testament God is Eloheim. The Canaanites said, 1399 01:56:34,199 --> 01:56:39,720 l Therefore the Old Testament God is a Canaanite God. This is a really 1400 01:56:39,800 --> 01:56:46,600 simple silly mistake. It's a grammatical mistake. Word concept fallacy word referent The 1401 01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:56,159 same word can refer to different things. Likewise, in theology, you can't 1402 01:56:56,239 --> 01:57:02,760 have seven of God's attributes and throw out three of them right and say it's 1403 01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:08,399 the same reference. This is not that difficult people, Can you understand? 1404 01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:14,960 Okay, let's say that there's Let's say that there's ten key attributes of God 1405 01:57:15,079 --> 01:57:19,800 just for the sake of argument, and all of those attributes are necessary such 1406 01:57:19,960 --> 01:57:25,720 that I can't deny one of the divine attributes and still have the same God 1407 01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:29,399 a reference. For example, I believe in all of God's attributes, but 1408 01:57:29,479 --> 01:57:33,079 not omnisciance. Okay, if you deny omniscians, then it's no longer the 1409 01:57:33,119 --> 01:57:38,399 same God. It doesn't matter that you have nine of the ten attributes. 1410 01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:44,399 Okay, it doesn't matter. There's no scale of Well, I got ninety 1411 01:57:44,439 --> 01:57:46,640 percent of God's attributes, so I have a ninety percent God. Do you 1412 01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:54,119 see how dumb this is. It's a system, mutually exclusive system such that 1413 01:57:54,760 --> 01:58:01,039 the system of Islam that is unitarian does not overlap with the system of Orthodox 1414 01:58:01,119 --> 01:58:06,399 trinitarianism. They're mutually exclusive systems. It doesn't matter that there are overlaps. 1415 01:58:08,239 --> 01:58:12,840 Will you believe in God's omniscience trinitarian. I believe in God's omniscience as a 1416 01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:18,560 Muslim. Therefore it's the same God. No, it isn't anymore than Basil's 1417 01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:25,159 Trinitarian God is the same God as Eunomius, as unitarian God, which also 1418 01:58:25,359 --> 01:58:29,439 uses the words father, son, and spirit. Guys, this is very 1419 01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:33,640 simple. All of natural theology is built on this. How can you not 1420 01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:42,119 see that this is a problem. This is silly. It does not matter 1421 01:58:42,239 --> 01:58:45,119 if there's the same words. What matters is the referent, not the words. 1422 01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:51,960 Don't you think that when we translate the Bible into some other language, 1423 01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:57,439 is it suddenly a different God because it's a different word, of course, 1424 01:58:57,560 --> 01:59:02,159 not the Aluit word for trinity. It doesn't matter what that word is, 1425 01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:08,840 because it's the reference that matters. As a Trinitarian, when I reference the 1426 01:59:08,920 --> 01:59:12,199 Trinity with the word t r I and I t y, it's the same 1427 01:59:12,319 --> 01:59:16,399 thing that the Alouette when he says uga whatever is referencing the Trinity. The 1428 01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:24,800 words can change the reference, doesn't It's simple grammatical stuff, And so many 1429 01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:29,239 people imagine the stupid bait and switch that the Roman Catholic system is built on. 1430 01:59:29,279 --> 01:59:33,199 This bait and switch in Vatican too and nostraate. And by the way, 1431 01:59:33,239 --> 01:59:35,079 that guy's like, no, it doesn't say that, doesn't say yes, 1432 01:59:35,119 --> 01:59:41,960 it does say that. Let's get Vatican too out. Let's see what 1433 01:59:42,039 --> 01:59:50,000 it says. Does the Roman Catholic Church believe with Hindus that Hindus worship and 1434 01:59:50,079 --> 01:59:55,880 love the same God that we do. Yes, and the Muslims yes Nostraate 1435 01:59:56,159 --> 02:00:04,640 Paragraphs two and three. The Church has reverence for the Muslims. They worship 1436 02:00:04,920 --> 02:00:13,479 quote capital G God. This is the basis of Roman Catholic natural theology, 1437 02:00:13,760 --> 02:00:20,239 an ecumanism with the Muslims clear as day us your interpretation. This is supposed 1438 02:00:20,239 --> 02:00:27,479 to be the interpretation. Do we need an interpretation of the interpretation of the 1439 02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:34,439 interpretation. The Church has a high regard for Muslims. No, it doesn't. 1440 02:00:35,079 --> 02:00:43,840 Muslims are a horrible Antichrist system that persecutes the Church. The Muslims worship 1441 02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:46,920 the one True God capital G. No, they don't, because the one 1442 02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:51,199 true God is Father's Son and Spirit. There is no generic Unitarian God. 1443 02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:57,720 And all of you Roman Catholics are lying to yourselves when you act like you 1444 02:00:57,800 --> 02:01:02,840 don't have to accept this. When you're poet creates a giant three building Abu 1445 02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:12,159 Dhabi faith center to the monotheistic God. That's not the Trinity. It's all 1446 02:01:12,279 --> 02:01:18,800 in your face. So stop lying to yourself. The Muslims worshiped the same 1447 02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:28,880 God that Abraham worshiped, No they don't. Abraham worshiped the triad. And 1448 02:01:29,239 --> 02:01:34,279 as it says right here, Hindus approach God in love and faith. No 1449 02:01:34,439 --> 02:01:42,479 they don't. Hinduism is a horrible demonic system and it does not allow you 1450 02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:48,439 to approach God in love and faith. Stop lying to yourselves about you the 1451 02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:55,239 very actions of your papacy for the last sixty years, seventy years, tell 1452 02:01:55,319 --> 02:02:11,840 you what your church believes about these religions. All right, we got a 1453 02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:29,600 huge stock of people here, newo logion. I'm mute, all right, 1454 02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:35,920 moving on? Hey, hey, yep, hey, thank you. Uh 1455 02:02:36,119 --> 02:02:41,079 sorry, I was struggling too a mute there. Hey, So, um, 1456 02:02:41,560 --> 02:02:43,479 I want to first of all, thank you for what you just said, 1457 02:02:43,520 --> 02:02:45,680 because actually I was part of what I wanted to cover. I read 1458 02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:49,640 no strat recently. I've just been making my way through the documents that you 1459 02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:55,119 suggest people to read, like Sadi's called Nidum Vatican one, no straw I 1460 02:02:55,199 --> 02:02:58,680 feel like what happens is a lot of a lot of Catholics just don't read 1461 02:02:59,319 --> 02:03:03,199 the course of the magisterium that they defend. Absolutely, yeah, tell me 1462 02:03:03,239 --> 02:03:08,479 about it, um so. Yeah. But what I wanted to talk to 1463 02:03:08,520 --> 02:03:12,880 you about is I wanted to ask your opinion on some thoughts I had. 1464 02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:18,880 I listened to actually re listened to Lofton and Aiken's talk on theistic evolution and 1465 02:03:19,199 --> 02:03:27,079 how how it's basically like a totally legitimate opinion uh in within Catholicism and it's 1466 02:03:27,319 --> 02:03:32,840 magisterially I guess rubber stamped or yeah, jumani generis or whatever by Pisah exactly, 1467 02:03:32,920 --> 02:03:36,279 and there's a lot more than just humani generis to the Aiken was bringing 1468 02:03:36,359 --> 02:03:39,960 up stuff I had never heard about. So I was what I mean, 1469 02:03:40,039 --> 02:03:43,520 it's already, by the way, is you know, verified by them, 1470 02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:46,319 and they're proud of it. Yeah. I mean, this is the undoing 1471 02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:53,800 of uh Romans five and Romans eight, because Romans eight's very clear that all 1472 02:03:54,000 --> 02:03:57,560 death, decay, and corruption entered as a result of Adam Sin. All 1473 02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:00,239 of those people posit that there is death or to the fall about him, 1474 02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:03,479 by the way, that's condemned in the in the cannons of the Sixth Council, 1475 02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:10,279 So they actually are condemned by the Sixth Council. Yes, And they 1476 02:04:10,319 --> 02:04:14,199 always just resort to, like there was a part where Aikin says, I 1477 02:04:14,359 --> 02:04:17,840 think within my lifetime there should be some kind of clarification and resolution, and 1478 02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:23,760 they're they're always resorting to like some future time when some future statement of some 1479 02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:27,119 future pope is going to make everything clear and it's all going to make sense 1480 02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:32,159 despite Yeah, because they worship being completely irresolvable. They're not like and not 1481 02:04:32,319 --> 02:04:35,279 things you could just have a pope write something about and suddenly it's all going 1482 02:04:35,319 --> 02:04:39,479 to make sense. Yeah, I mean the whole religion is the worship of 1483 02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:43,840 authority and faith in uh, you know, the papacy fixing things or doing 1484 02:04:43,920 --> 02:04:46,359 something better in the future, and it's it's all a man worship. And 1485 02:04:46,840 --> 02:04:50,279 yeah, Jimmy Aikin, by the way, we played the clips a while 1486 02:04:50,319 --> 02:04:54,920 back, he's like defending, Oh, Nestorius actually wasn't a heretic. Yeah, 1487 02:04:54,960 --> 02:04:58,399 well so Jimmy Aikin's a heretic, so avoid heretics. So that's all 1488 02:04:58,439 --> 02:05:00,840 I say stuff from them. Yeah, but specifically what I wanted to ask 1489 02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:05,920 your comments about is Uh there's a point where he mentions Dave Verbum, which 1490 02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:09,960 I have not read, but I think you're probably familiar with it, and 1491 02:05:10,119 --> 02:05:15,279 he brings up a point about Dave Verbum where, Uh, what's what's taught 1492 02:05:15,399 --> 02:05:21,359 in that document about the interpretation of scripture is that the author's assumptions don't need 1493 02:05:21,680 --> 02:05:27,199 uh well, okay, the way he phrases it is that what's inspired are 1494 02:05:27,319 --> 02:05:32,399 the author's assertions and not his assumptions. So when Peter is writing about the 1495 02:05:32,479 --> 02:05:39,079 flood and he's assuming that it was a global flood, that isn't necessarily inspired, 1496 02:05:39,479 --> 02:05:45,119 but his assertion or the symbolic um, the symbolic value of the statement 1497 02:05:45,199 --> 02:05:49,000 he's making is the inspired part. And I'm just I mean, that's that's 1498 02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:54,640 actually it. But in my mind, this just completely destroys exegises completely. 1499 02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:58,039 Absolutely. If you're if you're gonna read the Old Testament in that way, 1500 02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:02,279 you're just you're just going to be I mean, the things that the author 1501 02:06:02,319 --> 02:06:08,760 assumes are part of tradition obviously, so you're you're completely cutting down half half 1502 02:06:08,880 --> 02:06:12,159 or more of tradition. That really anyway, I just wanted to hear what 1503 02:06:12,279 --> 02:06:16,640 you have to say on that on Dave Averbum specifically in that uh exegetical methodology, 1504 02:06:16,640 --> 02:06:21,199 because this is actually right. I'm glad you said that, great point, 1505 02:06:21,319 --> 02:06:26,960 loved it. This is actually one of the things that modernists propose, 1506 02:06:28,239 --> 02:06:30,960 the modernists of the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds in the Roman Calgary Church, 1507 02:06:31,039 --> 02:06:36,159 we're proposing just precisely these kinds of splits and divisions, and so that 1508 02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:45,680 allowance for the modernist exegesis based on higher critical studies, that's actually completely undermining 1509 02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:48,680 of the whole position of Biblical theology, absolutely one percent. And the irony 1510 02:06:48,800 --> 02:06:55,960 is that those kinds of modernist positions were already condemned in Lamentabili and in Pious 1511 02:06:56,000 --> 02:07:00,239 the tense documents, right, So Pious the Tense Pachendi condemns these types of 1512 02:07:00,279 --> 02:07:04,399 presupositions of the modernists, and Lamentabili has a specific section. Uh. There's 1513 02:07:04,439 --> 02:07:10,079 also the Syllabus of Errors that has a specific sections on um errors in terms 1514 02:07:10,119 --> 02:07:15,079 of interpretation of scripture, and so it might not use the explicit we're wording 1515 02:07:15,159 --> 02:07:17,399 of Dave Verban, but obviously what Dave Dave Verban's is saying, which is 1516 02:07:17,399 --> 02:07:23,880 about it an two document right about inspiration interpretation of scripture? Right, obviously 1517 02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:27,479 it is saying that you can't divorce these two things. I mean, it 1518 02:07:27,479 --> 02:07:30,199 would lead to all kinds of absurdity. And by the way, how could 1519 02:07:30,199 --> 02:07:35,680 you This is like deconstructionism or something like, how do you divorce Peter's worldview 1520 02:07:35,920 --> 02:07:41,399 from what he's writing? This is crazy and and there's no there's nothing that 1521 02:07:41,439 --> 02:07:46,199 tells you, by the way, where the delineating line is, so, 1522 02:07:47,279 --> 02:07:55,119 like, what what is it? Where's the line between Peter's theological errors, 1523 02:07:55,159 --> 02:08:00,960 because that's what it would amount to, theological cosmological errors and the exact writing 1524 02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:03,960 of his texts. Right, And by the way, where does this come 1525 02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:09,239 from? What church father ever said? That there's a division between the potentially 1526 02:08:09,399 --> 02:08:15,399 erroneous presuppositions that Peter has of his worldview versus what he actually wrote down. 1527 02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:18,640 It's all just invented. And this again, this is why all of these 1528 02:08:18,720 --> 02:08:22,039 people, all the Roman Catholics, all the people that you hear that they 1529 02:08:22,079 --> 02:08:26,399 don't even they can't think through these things because they're deluded. This is what 1530 02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:35,239 delusion does. It's a strong delusion, and they don't even see that this 1531 02:08:35,720 --> 02:08:43,439 totally undermines what Romans eight says about the cosmology of the universe. Paul says 1532 02:08:43,479 --> 02:08:48,119 in Romans eight that all death, all decay, all corruption is a result 1533 02:08:48,479 --> 02:08:52,319 of Adam and Eves and prior to that Satan, Satan's fall, in an 1534 02:08:52,359 --> 02:08:58,159 Abnea's fall, you can't have millions of years of death before Adam's fall. 1535 02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:03,880 It does it undoes the cosmological scope of christ redemption. And that's why these 1536 02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,399 heretics don't believe in recapitulation. Every one of these people, as a heretic, 1537 02:09:07,479 --> 02:09:13,119 could denies recapitulation because you can't believe in recapitulation without what I'm saying, 1538 02:09:13,800 --> 02:09:18,199 without the idea that Adam and Eve brought all forms of deathca corruption. They 1539 02:09:18,239 --> 02:09:24,680 don't understand that the cosmic scope of the fall is the presupposition of the cosmic 1540 02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:30,600 scope of Christ's incarnation and redemption. It's not simple, and that's why their 1541 02:09:30,640 --> 02:09:35,239 heretics. Yeah, and they do the exact same thing with even papal documents, 1542 02:09:35,319 --> 02:09:41,159 like when it comes to the issue of fatal communion. The ones that 1543 02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:46,960 like who actually have read Quam SINGULARI know that Pious the tenth called not giving 1544 02:09:48,199 --> 02:09:52,279 not communing children a new practice. He literally uses those words, and they'll 1545 02:09:52,359 --> 02:09:56,279 just straight up deny that he's right about that. He'll they'll they'll just be 1546 02:09:56,399 --> 02:10:01,640 like, well, the historical part of his cyclical isn't infallible, but the 1547 02:10:01,760 --> 02:10:07,600 right I mean, it's just constantly making these arbitrary distinctions, and it's like, 1548 02:10:07,079 --> 02:10:09,800 all right, on what basis? I mean, these people have not 1549 02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:13,720 read Sidi's Cognitum, because if they did, then they'd know, like the 1550 02:10:15,239 --> 02:10:20,079 whole encyclical binds your conscience. Yea, whether it's a cathedral or ordinary magic 1551 02:10:20,119 --> 02:10:24,000 hereim, it doesn't matter. You can't just deny that what what a pope 1552 02:10:24,119 --> 02:10:28,960 is saying about a historical truth is right is not true. Yeah, um, 1553 02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:33,399 well, thank you, Jay. I also want to mention that I 1554 02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:37,199 read M. Paul Williams book Operation Glad You. I recently finished it on 1555 02:10:37,239 --> 02:10:41,960 your recommendation. I thought it was fantastic. Yeah, thanks man, really 1556 02:10:41,000 --> 02:10:46,800 great comments. Awesome, thank you so much. No LOGI on great comments. 1557 02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:52,720 Yeah, there you go. Track cat honest with himself, sees where 1558 02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:56,920 it leads, saw the conclusions and realize the track cats don't read their own 1559 02:10:56,960 --> 02:11:01,600 documents. If they did, they would see those Alexander Harris. What's up 1560 02:11:03,079 --> 02:11:05,399 by the way before we go to Alexander, hold on, if your second, 1561 02:11:05,159 --> 02:11:11,960 if you would for a second, pavl cocheck cochick check a chick. 1562 02:11:13,039 --> 02:11:16,600 One dollar. Let's see who the first victim was, brad counter five dollars. 1563 02:11:16,720 --> 02:11:20,640 Can you talk about the rosary in its history? So the rosary is 1564 02:11:20,119 --> 02:11:26,199 not something that I would advocate for um it's it's usually pretty bound up with 1565 02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:31,079 Roman Catholic doctrine of imaginative prayer, and we don't do that in Orthodoxy. 1566 02:11:31,159 --> 02:11:33,840 I'm sorry, it's not part of the Orthodox tradition. And the Western right 1567 02:11:33,880 --> 02:11:37,079 people that want to import the Rosary, I think it's a bad idea, 1568 02:11:37,520 --> 02:11:41,039 So we don't want it in there. You don't need it. Bowie three 1569 02:11:41,199 --> 02:11:43,840 eight three three eight, Thank you for all your work. Thank you so 1570 02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:48,359 much, Bowie. Cute little Gandolf That's what I'm talking about. Hot sexy 1571 02:11:48,439 --> 02:11:54,039 little gandolfs. Can you share your critique of John Locke and classical liberalism. 1572 02:11:54,039 --> 02:11:58,560 I have many podcasts that I've done critiques of classical liberalism. You can go 1573 02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:03,039 back to the old podcast with Tim Kelly. You can do that. You 1574 02:12:03,079 --> 02:12:05,119 can look at the critique I did of Jordan Peterson from six years ago. 1575 02:12:07,880 --> 02:12:09,960 I've done that so many times. It's just sort of like, how many 1576 02:12:11,000 --> 02:12:16,960 times you have to do it. I feel like you blame liberalism for everything. 1577 02:12:18,199 --> 02:12:20,600 You hear me blame liberalism. I don't know what do you mean by 1578 02:12:20,640 --> 02:12:24,520 liberalism classical liberalism? I don't know what you mean. Do I blame liberalism 1579 02:12:24,600 --> 02:12:28,600 for everything? I don't typically do that. I blame the fall for for 1580 02:12:28,760 --> 02:12:37,079 everything, not liberal quote liberalism. We drifted away from decentralized government. Yeah, 1581 02:12:37,119 --> 02:12:41,119 I mean, this is just the narrative that you believe from the Enlightenment 1582 02:12:41,239 --> 02:12:46,359 propagandists who have told you that you know, Adam Smith and David Ricardo and 1583 02:12:46,479 --> 02:12:50,600 John Locke and all these goobers are sort of like the final word, and 1584 02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:56,920 you understand that those people work for British East India Company and private corporations who 1585 02:12:56,159 --> 02:13:03,880 became the next enslavers and the next tyrants. So you just believe a myth 1586 02:13:05,279 --> 02:13:09,239 of the Enlightenment. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and I'm happy to debate 1587 02:13:09,279 --> 02:13:13,960 any libertarian. In fact, I think we did. I debated the first 1588 02:13:13,960 --> 02:13:16,279 debate ever did was cocash, and the first half of the debate was theism. 1589 02:13:16,359 --> 02:13:20,640 And then the second half was I think classical liberalism. I've asked all 1590 02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:24,880 kinds of classical liberals to come and do debates, and they just typically won't 1591 02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:28,279 do it. Now, we did do that debate with Robert Taylor, like 1592 02:13:28,399 --> 02:13:31,520 five or six years ago. We did two or three debates with him. 1593 02:13:31,560 --> 02:13:39,920 Actually, Dave Smith. I tried to get Dave Smith to do a debate. 1594 02:13:39,399 --> 02:13:41,920 He wouldn't do it, or just didn't see my tweets or something or 1595 02:13:41,960 --> 02:13:45,520 whatever. I don't know. I'm not dissing him. I'm just saying that 1596 02:13:46,239 --> 02:13:50,600 any libertarian wants to come to a debate, it's open floor. Reach out 1597 02:13:50,720 --> 02:13:54,079 to me. I'm very easy to get a hold of on Twitter. Majority 1598 02:13:54,119 --> 02:13:58,359 in twenty dollars On the question of existence of grace outside the church, how 1599 02:13:58,399 --> 02:14:03,960 do we define grace outside the church versus divine providence? Again, at the 1600 02:14:03,079 --> 02:14:07,279 last twom, I think it's either thirteen or fifteen. A maximist talks about 1601 02:14:07,800 --> 02:14:11,840 the mode of the spirit's presence outside the church. So again, if there's 1602 02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:16,399 no grace outside the church, we would never come to the church. Of 1603 02:14:16,479 --> 02:14:20,800 course, there's grace. Grace, Paul says, the word is near you 1604 02:14:20,880 --> 02:14:24,800 even in your hearts to the Pagans. That does not mean they're saved. 1605 02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:31,800 So divine providence is a grace, yes, But the Holy Spirit worked on 1606 02:14:31,119 --> 02:14:35,800 Cornelius's heart before he was in the church. There's nothing wrong with that. 1607 02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:41,239 Doesn't mean that they're saved as pagans. Not saying that. Does it mean 1608 02:14:41,359 --> 02:14:46,319 that the Roman Catholics have the eu Christ either, not saying that. Justinian's 1609 02:14:46,399 --> 02:14:48,039 right ten dollars. I got into a discussion and debate with the guy at 1610 02:14:48,039 --> 02:14:52,520 work. He brought up salvation and said he believed in solifide. I said, 1611 02:14:52,600 --> 02:14:56,640 you are in a Baptist sect that is based on dialectical philosophy and not 1612 02:14:56,760 --> 02:15:03,600 historic Christianity. Is that a good bait tactic or move? Yeah? I 1613 02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:07,720 mean if that's a fact, and if you know your buddies enough with the 1614 02:15:07,800 --> 02:15:11,159 guy that you can, you know, just sort of lay it out that 1615 02:15:11,319 --> 02:15:13,239 bluntly, then yeah, I think that's a great move. Why not? 1616 02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:16,640 I mean, isn't that a fact? If he's a Baptist, dude, 1617 02:15:16,920 --> 02:15:22,840 then Baptists, you know, date from basically the Radical Reformation. Where were 1618 02:15:22,880 --> 02:15:26,119 the Baptists in the year of seven hundred? Where were the Baptists at the 1619 02:15:26,199 --> 02:15:31,079 Council of Nicia. They weren't there because they didn't exist. Elevate xxx ten 1620 02:15:31,159 --> 02:15:35,840 dollars. What's your opinion on John MacArthur. I don't have a lot of 1621 02:15:37,840 --> 02:15:43,600 positive things to say about any quasi Calvinist self appointed Bible teacher, so I 1622 02:15:43,680 --> 02:15:48,119 think John MacArthur is a heretic. Kevin Farrell ten dollars. Watch this video 1623 02:15:48,239 --> 02:15:50,399 when you're done. It will freak you out, and then you have a 1624 02:15:50,439 --> 02:15:54,439 link. Maybe I'll check it out, but then again, who knows what 1625 02:15:54,520 --> 02:15:58,000 you've sent, so I don't know if I want to check it out. 1626 02:15:58,079 --> 02:16:03,319 Christen five dollars. Great job deflecting on that guy's neuro linguistic programming. We 1627 02:16:03,479 --> 02:16:07,279 hate to see you get hypnotized on stream. Yeah, that's halfway a joke 1628 02:16:07,319 --> 02:16:09,880 when I talk about the like, I know that the people calling in and 1629 02:16:11,039 --> 02:16:15,119 saying my name over and over and over are not actually doing NLP. But 1630 02:16:15,239 --> 02:16:20,159 that actually is an NLP technique, right, You people do to do a 1631 02:16:20,239 --> 02:16:22,760 lot of like politicians go and study how to do NLP and they learn all 1632 02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:28,000 this nonsense. So I'm halfway joking, but I just think it's dumb when 1633 02:16:28,039 --> 02:16:31,959 people are like Jay Jay. Look, look bro Jay Jay Jay, Look 1634 02:16:33,079 --> 02:16:37,280 Jay Jack, I'm like, what why are you repeating my name? Like 1635 02:16:37,799 --> 02:16:41,639 I'm the We're the only two people here. There's no other possible person that 1636 02:16:41,680 --> 02:16:43,840 you like you're talking to me. You don't have to keep saying my name. 1637 02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:46,600 I'm here, dude. Oh look at that Junior Gallows since two hundred 1638 02:16:46,600 --> 02:16:50,600 dollars, he's winning the super chat competition today. Thank you so much. 1639 02:16:50,239 --> 02:16:56,639 It's a massive stream killing super Chat. Thank you so much. Roll Steaks 1640 02:16:56,680 --> 02:16:58,559 ten dollars. Spent a long time since we've seen some of these classic names. 1641 02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:01,799 Good to see you guys there. Thank you for the string killing it 1642 02:17:01,799 --> 02:17:07,520 as usual. I love all the six Sticky note maxing. Keep us in 1643 02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:09,959 your viewers and your prayers. We'll keep me in your prayers. I need 1644 02:17:09,040 --> 02:17:13,000 your prayers. Riga nine, thank you so much. Fake in Gray five 1645 02:17:13,079 --> 02:17:18,920 dollars, Thank you so much. Who's up next? That would be me? 1646 02:17:20,120 --> 02:17:26,159 Hey man, how's it going, soub dude? So I just tuned 1647 02:17:26,159 --> 02:17:28,520 into the stream and then came over here to Twitter. At the end of 1648 02:17:28,559 --> 02:17:35,680 your discussion about Vatican Two's basically all religions are approximating the same God and then 1649 02:17:35,280 --> 02:17:39,360 talking more specifically about to being worship the same God as the Muslims and the 1650 02:17:39,479 --> 02:17:45,760 Jews, and so I wouldn't at all agree with the vatic into kind of 1651 02:17:45,840 --> 02:17:48,600 language. And I don't come from it in the sense of trying to justify 1652 02:17:48,760 --> 02:17:54,319 any kind of Catholic document, but I do. I am of the opinion 1653 02:17:54,399 --> 02:17:56,520 that at least the Jews and the Muslims worship the same God. And I 1654 02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:58,639 know you don't think that, but I want to at least state my case 1655 02:17:58,719 --> 02:18:01,680 and and see if you can try and dissuade me. Okay, I will 1656 02:18:01,719 --> 02:18:07,079 let you state your case, but let's rewind real collect so before we do 1657 02:18:07,200 --> 02:18:11,399 that, though, do you profess to be some sort of Christian? No, 1658 02:18:11,799 --> 02:18:16,719 No, I'm not Orthodox, and so well hold on. And do 1659 02:18:16,799 --> 02:18:22,479 you profess to be some Christians in reality and faith? No? So are 1660 02:18:22,520 --> 02:18:24,319 you agnosis? I don't have baptism, I don't have chrismation. Sorry, 1661 02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:28,159 are you agnostic? Well I don't understand. No, No, Ideologically I 1662 02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:33,040 agree with Orthodox Christianity. Yeah, and so God willing hold on, I'll 1663 02:18:33,040 --> 02:18:35,280 be Orthodox, Okay, I mean it's just not the reality yet. Okay, 1664 02:18:35,559 --> 02:18:41,000 fair enough, so go ahead, um so, And one of the 1665 02:18:41,360 --> 02:18:46,319 big things that I think I use this reference for justifying at least I'm gonna 1666 02:18:46,360 --> 02:18:50,520 argue the Jewish case, and then by extension, if Jewish radical Unitarianism as 1667 02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:54,440 it's known today could be Um could be also the same God that we worshiped, 1668 02:18:54,479 --> 02:18:56,239 and I think it would extend to Islam. But we can we can 1669 02:18:56,319 --> 02:19:01,360 argue that that release And I'll just talk about the Jewish case. In Saint 1670 02:19:01,440 --> 02:19:05,120 Justin Martyr's writings in his first Apology, he talks about how God appeared to 1671 02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:11,280 Moses and is explaining to the Caesar that the Jews have a confusion between the 1672 02:19:11,399 --> 02:19:15,360 Father and the Son when the Angel of the Lord appears at the burning bush. 1673 02:19:16,079 --> 02:19:20,000 And I think the way that Justin Martyr couches this in context is that 1674 02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:24,399 the Jewish God, even in this conception, is a close stuff approximation to 1675 02:19:24,559 --> 02:19:28,799 say that their confusion is classified as heresy but not idolatry, and heresy being 1676 02:19:30,239 --> 02:19:37,360 an approximation of the correct referent that that does not fit every characteristic necessary for 1677 02:19:37,479 --> 02:19:46,280 it to be Orthodox, but not lacking enough qualities to be referring to some 1678 02:19:46,639 --> 02:19:50,239 other subject, some other God, or some other delusion. Yeah, but 1679 02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:54,440 hold on, So an orthodox go ahead, An Orthodox theology. I understand 1680 02:19:54,440 --> 02:19:56,559 where you're going with that, but Orthodox theology. Ultimately, this doesn't really 1681 02:19:56,639 --> 02:20:03,799 matter because if you look at John Damascus's uh heresiology, how does he classify 1682 02:20:03,920 --> 02:20:07,159 all the heresies or excuse me, how does he classify all the world religions 1683 02:20:07,399 --> 02:20:15,040 I don't know as heresies? So ultimately this doesn't really matter. Okay. 1684 02:20:15,079 --> 02:20:18,760 So you would say that that, according to that heresie, idolatry are essentially 1685 02:20:18,799 --> 02:20:22,440 the same thing, and that there isn't really a distinction there Ultimately, yes, 1686 02:20:22,280 --> 02:20:26,040 okay. So would the implications of that be that all Catholics, even 1687 02:20:26,120 --> 02:20:31,520 though they profess the Creed because they use the Philioquay, would be idolatris and 1688 02:20:31,680 --> 02:20:35,520 heretics absolutely okay, No, cool, that just clarifies your position. Um, 1689 02:20:37,159 --> 02:20:41,239 oh could you no? I guess okay, if you can cite Saint 1690 02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:43,280 John Damascus, right, that's given me a lot. Yeah. So if 1691 02:20:43,319 --> 02:20:46,639 you look at the I mean, what does Saint Gregor Palamas say in the 1692 02:20:46,760 --> 02:20:50,200 Treatise on the Appodicted Treatise on the Holy Spirit. He says that the Roman 1693 02:20:50,280 --> 02:20:56,280 Catholics have listened to Satan in their heresy on the Philioquay, and they've confused 1694 02:20:56,399 --> 02:21:00,040 nature in person and that thus that's lead that leads them to their doctor and 1695 02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:05,959 have created grace. Absolutely, But to say that's the same thing as worshiping 1696 02:21:05,000 --> 02:21:09,879 a different god, it is, and he's no hold on. So in 1697 02:21:09,000 --> 02:21:18,879 orthodox listen and orthodox theology, heresy is ideolotry. It's a delusion of worshiping 1698 02:21:20,079 --> 02:21:24,680 a conceptual thing that is not the correct reference. Now that doesn't mean that 1699 02:21:24,719 --> 02:21:28,719 everybody, everybody that has anything wrong is automatically a damned heretic. Heresy is 1700 02:21:28,719 --> 02:21:33,520 a specific sin. You're correct to say. It is a specific sin of 1701 02:21:33,280 --> 02:21:39,360 willful error and persisting in that error. So that's why we don't call everybody 1702 02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:45,600 necessarily a heretic per se. But John Damascus can also basically classify all of 1703 02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:50,000 the world religions all the way back to the original idolatry in Genesis when Man 1704 02:21:50,120 --> 02:21:56,159 fell. He says that all of the pagan religions basically derive as a heresy 1705 02:21:56,319 --> 02:22:01,280 from the original worship of the Trinity in the garden. Okay, well, 1706 02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:05,280 that was really helpful about distinguishing the willful push systems apart, because I think 1707 02:22:05,040 --> 02:22:09,680 maybe that addresses the other objection that I was going to bring which was that. 1708 02:22:09,040 --> 02:22:13,040 I mean, for for every layman in the Orthodox Church to assume that 1709 02:22:13,079 --> 02:22:18,639 they have a perfect understanding of the trendy whenever they worship is like a little 1710 02:22:18,719 --> 02:22:22,000 much to ask. Yeah. And also I don't have a problem saying that. 1711 02:22:22,120 --> 02:22:24,920 You know, Justin Martyr, even though he's a saint, you know, 1712 02:22:26,719 --> 02:22:28,680 they can get things wrong and they can have sometimes have bad arguments. 1713 02:22:28,719 --> 02:22:31,479 A lot of the apologists of that period. In fact, his disciple, 1714 02:22:31,639 --> 02:22:37,520 I think Tatian right, Tatian became the total heretic. So just because Justin 1715 02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:41,120 Martyr made this or that argument or whoever, like individual church fathers can make, 1716 02:22:41,319 --> 02:22:45,520 you know, bad arguments, sou, I don't have a problem saying 1717 02:22:45,600 --> 02:22:48,040 it out. Well, that's a bad argument. So well, thank you 1718 02:22:48,120 --> 02:23:13,520 Jay. Yeah, good questions, Togo. Well, I might to remind 1719 02:23:13,559 --> 02:23:15,879 you guys, if you had a head over to chalk dot com. At 1720 02:23:15,959 --> 02:23:20,399 choq dot com, you get access to the best supplements out there. You 1721 02:23:20,479 --> 02:23:22,840 can get a hold of the Sheila jet, which is great for mental focusing 1722 02:23:22,879 --> 02:23:26,879 clarity, to use the promo goo J fifty that's Joy five zero to get 1723 02:23:26,920 --> 02:23:30,639 fifty percent off all of those excellent products. You can get the Action two 1724 02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:35,719 point zero, which is excellent in terms of action boosting your energy levels. 1725 02:23:35,799 --> 02:23:41,000 You can get my favorite, which is the tonkat Allee one percent proven a 1726 02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:45,680 boost testosterone. Heading over there to chalk dot com Thehoq dot com. You 1727 02:23:45,799 --> 02:23:48,280 use the Romco J fifty to get fifty percent off all of those excellent products. 1728 02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:50,719 Read the papers and their views and see. If you don't think that 1729 02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:54,120 I'm right, you're gonna see everybody loves it. Um. Also, I 1730 02:23:54,159 --> 02:23:58,120 would say, if you want to get recurring subscriptions, use the promo goo 1731 02:23:58,200 --> 02:24:01,239 J five three Life. That's J five three. If you want to see 1732 02:24:01,319 --> 02:24:05,920 us live, We'll be doing a live event in Hollywood at Van Nuys Airport. 1733 02:24:07,120 --> 02:24:09,600 That's a there's a giant hangar. Basically it's not the airport, but 1734 02:24:11,319 --> 02:24:13,280 we'll be doing an event with Jamie Kennedy. It's gonna be a lot of 1735 02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:20,479 fun. It's a mix of the absurd with philosophy with real information. Expose's 1736 02:24:20,600 --> 02:24:22,840 great stuff. There's the tickets. Sign up now, don't wait, go 1737 02:24:22,879 --> 02:24:26,920 ahead and get your tickets now. It's not worth waiting until the last minute. 1738 02:24:26,600 --> 02:24:28,799 Um, what's it's winding down on that? So I get your tickets. 1739 02:24:28,879 --> 02:24:33,760 Also, if you want to sign up for the Orthodox Italy Pilgrimage. 1740 02:24:33,200 --> 02:24:37,159 We're gonna be doing a full on pilgrimage in Italy. You can go to 1741 02:24:37,479 --> 02:24:43,479 my website and you're under every post you'll see the links for the for the 1742 02:24:43,559 --> 02:24:48,719 show or seeing me for the for the pilgrimage. What's up, man? 1743 02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:54,040 Go ahead? Hello? You hear me? Yep? Okay, sorry, 1744 02:24:54,520 --> 02:25:03,280 um, I just have a question about bro. You're going into the Haunted 1745 02:25:03,360 --> 02:25:07,040 House the basement. You're going into the basement of the hunted House. What's 1746 02:25:07,120 --> 02:25:20,559 up, man? That's fine, it's fine, go ahead. I can't 1747 02:25:20,559 --> 02:25:24,959 hear you, dude, you're you're you're roboting, man. Try to come 1748 02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:28,200 out and come back in. By the way, somebody said we could see 1749 02:25:28,200 --> 02:25:31,520 all your contacts on your phone. You're not seeing the contacts, dude. 1750 02:25:31,559 --> 02:25:35,000 You're seeing the people that are in line in the quay to come on. 1751 02:25:35,799 --> 02:25:43,639 You're not seeing contacts, secret information. Good spoozing? Uh, I don't 1752 02:25:43,680 --> 02:25:48,360 know. Let's do let's do one more. Is there anybody who wants to 1753 02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:56,799 bring on some disagreements Stephen Young? This looks like somebody who wants to debate. 1754 02:25:56,159 --> 02:26:09,200 Let's see. Hell yeah, what's up? Hey? Man? Um? 1755 02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:13,760 So I'm a Catholic. Um, it's like a kind of a recent 1756 02:26:13,879 --> 02:26:20,079 convert and I just had a couple of questions. So I've been considering Orthodoxy 1757 02:26:20,239 --> 02:26:26,200 now for just like a couple of months, and my biggest concern is about 1758 02:26:26,360 --> 02:26:33,920 the divine Simpleton view versus the essence entergy is distinction, And Catholics keep telling 1759 02:26:33,959 --> 02:26:37,319 me to look at Scotism as if it's some kind of like a compromise. 1760 02:26:37,639 --> 02:26:41,600 Could you tell me more about that? Yeah? So, I mean the 1761 02:26:41,760 --> 02:26:45,959 issue what they're misunderstanding is that the issue of can you mute, dude, 1762 02:26:46,000 --> 02:27:01,000 please meet bro? Mute? Oh yeah, So the issue is not merely 1763 02:27:01,040 --> 02:27:05,719 a matter of the status of the distinctions between the attributes, right, So 1764 02:27:05,799 --> 02:27:09,520 the idea that this is only a question of the relationship of God in his 1765 02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:16,040 simplicity to the multiplicity of attributes is a fundamental misunderstanding of the scope of this 1766 02:27:16,280 --> 02:27:22,159 issue. It's also an issue that relates directly to Christology, because the Energy's 1767 02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:26,239 doctrine, if you read John Damascus in book three, is immediately applied to 1768 02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:30,479 Christology. Two wills and two energies, and the energies in Christ in his 1769 02:27:30,639 --> 02:27:37,920 incarnate state are necessary to understand the multiplicity of His actions as incarnate. You 1770 02:27:37,079 --> 02:27:41,680 see. So it's not just a matter of distinctions in trinity or God proper. 1771 02:27:43,159 --> 02:27:46,639 It's also crucial to understanding the reality of Christ incarnate in his two Wills 1772 02:27:46,680 --> 02:27:52,840 and two energies. The essence energy distinction is specified and hammered out, not 1773 02:27:52,120 --> 02:27:58,000 ultimately in Trinitarian theology, but in Christology, and Roman Calitic theology is deficient 1774 02:28:00,120 --> 02:28:05,040 also in Christology. Now that's not because they don't give verbal credence to the 1775 02:28:05,120 --> 02:28:07,879 Sixth Council. They do, but they don't really understand that theology of the 1776 02:28:07,959 --> 02:28:11,959 Sixth Council, nor is it really relevant to their system as a whole. 1777 02:28:11,719 --> 02:28:16,360 And the reason for that is that they if it was, they would understand 1778 02:28:16,479 --> 02:28:20,239 that the six Council is not just about speculations of energies. It's about how 1779 02:28:20,280 --> 02:28:28,159 we participate in God. You cannot have a real, coherent doctrine of transubstantiation 1780 02:28:28,520 --> 02:28:35,159 or of the real presence without the energies. Ephesus and Saint Cyril make clear 1781 02:28:35,239 --> 02:28:41,319 as day that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is the uncreated energies plural, 1782 02:28:41,680 --> 02:28:46,799 that's what you partake of. So Roman Catholic theology has dogmatized that what 1783 02:28:48,040 --> 02:28:56,000 you partake of in grace is a supernatural accident in the soul, a created 1784 02:28:56,239 --> 02:29:01,000 accident in the soul. Supernatural created accident in the soul. That is impossible 1785 02:29:01,959 --> 02:29:11,280 with Orthodox theology. It's impossible with the Eucharist. Cyril says in the Two 1786 02:29:11,360 --> 02:29:15,799 Letters to sixth Senses that what we partake of in the Eucharist is the uncreated 1787 02:29:15,879 --> 02:29:20,879 glory that the Logos transmitted to his human nature. Because what you partake of 1788 02:29:20,000 --> 02:29:26,520 in the Eucharist is the deified flesh of Christ, deified by the uncreated energies. 1789 02:29:26,079 --> 02:29:33,319 You can't be deified by creation. So they've missed that. The essence, 1790 02:29:35,639 --> 02:29:41,520 even in the Palomite debates, is not about theoretical distinctions or the theology 1791 02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:46,520 proper of the Trinity. It's about participating in the Logos, participating in uncreated 1792 02:29:46,639 --> 02:29:52,040 energy. Scodism doesn't solve, that doesn't answer, that doesn't deal with that. 1793 02:29:54,200 --> 02:29:58,600 Palamas is very clear in the debate with barlium assume of acodynos and barlium, 1794 02:30:00,559 --> 02:30:05,280 the dialogue with the Barlammite that the key issue is about participating. If 1795 02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:09,360 you don't have the uncreated energies doctrine distinct from the essence. You don't have 1796 02:30:11,280 --> 02:30:15,760 a doctrine of participation that makes any sense. Are you eating the divine essence 1797 02:30:15,959 --> 02:30:22,440 when you eat the Eucharist Roman Catholics, it's already defined. A ephicis what 1798 02:30:22,559 --> 02:30:31,000 you're eating Allah Cyril the uncreated immortal glories. And Cyril says that is not 1799 02:30:31,159 --> 02:30:37,719 the essence, that means essence, energy distinction Roman Catholics. But you don't 1800 02:30:37,760 --> 02:30:41,879 read those things. You don't read Cyril, you don't read emphasis, you 1801 02:30:41,920 --> 02:30:45,559 don't read what's in the sixth Council, and so you don't even know that 1802 02:30:45,639 --> 02:30:48,799 what I'm telling you is fundamental to all of these things. So it doesn't 1803 02:30:48,879 --> 02:30:54,040 matter. It wouldn't matter if a Roman Caloic theologian said, I believe in 1804 02:30:54,120 --> 02:31:01,120 a real distinction between the divine attributes. It's not a matter of do you 1805 02:31:01,239 --> 02:31:07,120 have room for a school of philosophy within Roman Catholicism's umbrella that allows for believing 1806 02:31:07,159 --> 02:31:11,200 in real distinctions and attributes. It doesn't matter. It's not a theoretical question. 1807 02:31:13,040 --> 02:31:18,239 It's an actual praxis question about what we participate in, and that has 1808 02:31:18,319 --> 02:31:26,319 to be uncreated energy, and that's already defined and so Rome has already departed 1809 02:31:28,040 --> 02:31:35,920 from this doctrine by dogmatizing that the grace that we get is a supernatural creature. 1810 02:31:37,639 --> 02:31:41,040 That's heresy. All right, thank you guys, a lot of fun 1811 02:31:41,079 --> 02:31:46,280 today. We're gonna call it a day. Everybody, have a good evening 1812 02:31:46,479 --> 02:31:50,680 and a lot of fun today. We only had like one or I think 1813 02:31:50,680 --> 02:31:54,120 we only had one troll, right, we didn't. We didn't hit our 1814 02:31:54,840 --> 02:31:58,239 two troll limit that we expected, but that's okay.