1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:14,720 Made de san j oh, thanks Sunny sumone on I hadturdays nice. So 2 00:00:15,119 --> 00:00:19,239 nat Hey, everybody, welcome to our Thursday shows. Yes, we have 3 00:00:19,399 --> 00:00:24,559 a guest today that I personally am super excited about. Uh. He's a 4 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:30,480 journalist, podcaster and co founder of Campside Media. His name is Josh Dean. 5 00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:35,520 And I went after this guy. I tracked him down on Facebook. 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,600 I full court press to get him to come be a guest on our show. 7 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:43,759 Hi Josh, Hello, thank you. I'm happy to have people drop 8 00:00:43,799 --> 00:00:47,479 into my DMS and ask me to do it. Oh nice, I was 9 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,159 telling Lynette. I remember it was like a long time ago. It was 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:59,159 when I watched the documentary the Alisa Lamb the Hotel Cecil documentary. Scene yeah, 11 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,679 crime scene is what was called? Yeah, Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel 12 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:06,439 crime scene colon Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, Well we just call 13 00:01:06,519 --> 00:01:10,239 it the Cecil Hotel Documentary. And Lynette and I are obsessed and we watched 14 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,359 that documentary and I was like, there's this guy on there, Josh Dean. 15 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:17,480 He's cute. I looked him up and he knows like everything about this 16 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,719 case, right, And I was like, we got to get him on 17 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:22,799 the show. And that was way that was a lot a long time before, 18 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:25,400 and I think I looked into it and I was like, oh, 19 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:27,560 and he's behind a lot of podcasts that we like. Because Lynette and I 20 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:34,079 love podcasts. We've been doing we've been recording this podcast, which started out 21 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:40,280 as a parenting podcast, but we started podcasting like fifteen years ago. Literally, 22 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:47,439 Oh, you guys, we're ogs and we love the narrative podcasts. 23 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:51,439 We're always looking for new ones to listen to. Yes, well, that's 24 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,719 our specialty. So I'm glad. I'm happy to talk about it for as 25 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,840 long as you want. I'm probably more than you want to know. So 26 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,560 okay, So your newest one that we are plugging today is called White Devil. 27 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,239 I am up to date on this. Tell us, how did you 28 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:13,840 get involved in this story? This one? It's an unusual one for me 29 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,039 because I don't usually do like torn from the headline stuff, like the sort 30 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,080 of zeitgeisty tabloid stuff, and that's what this was when I first heard about 31 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,520 it. But it was during the pandemic and a friend of mine. I 32 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,479 don't really know what we were doing. We were just looking for a project 33 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,400 to sort of kick the tires on and he sent me this headline and I 34 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:37,639 was like, oh, so you know the term socialite was used shoots cop 35 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:38,759 in Belize and I was like, well, I don't know much. I 36 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:44,479 have been to Belize once on vacation. I don't know much about the culture 37 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,560 or the crime, or anything about its elite or or various social classes. 38 00:02:50,599 --> 00:02:53,039 But the premise of it was really interesting. It was that a white woman 39 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,759 of privilege, or seemingly of privilege, had been alone on a pier at 40 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:05,120 night with this black cop, fairly senior cop, and he ends up dead. 41 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:07,759 And there's no other suspects or witnesses. So as like a mystery, 42 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:13,840 you know, it's like a knives out type closed door mystery. It wasn't 43 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,840 indoors, it was outdoors, but there were no other plausible suspects. The 44 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,159 problem is, and I say problem, I've now spent three years on it, 45 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,080 so obviously it wasn't that big of a problem. It was pretty clear 46 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:30,560 to me that it wasn't actually a mystery. That circumstances almost an evidence, 47 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:34,319 and even the police, the prosecutor, weren't really making a case that it 48 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,800 was murder. It seemed to be an accident. Of course, even that 49 00:03:36,919 --> 00:03:39,039 is a bit of a mystery, like how does that accidentally happen? But 50 00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:45,599 what pulled me in was that everything that I expected to transpire did not happen, 51 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,159 in fact, the opposite of what I thought was going to happen. 52 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:53,080 So this woman was married or common law wife of a very very powerful person, 53 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,840 and you would expect it's the sort of thing where if this thing makes 54 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:00,159 the news, it's quickly buried or it goes away. She walks away and 55 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,360 everything is totally fine, And in fact it sort of sets off sets in 56 00:04:04,439 --> 00:04:11,319 motion a series of events that leads to this incredible I mean fall, I 57 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,960 guess, but it's more like I describe it sometimes as the worst divorce story 58 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,920 you've ever heard. It's actually way worse than that. But it's it's a 59 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,160 kind of family drama masquerading as a crime story. And I don't know, 60 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,079 I just got fascinated with it. And it's strike I said, It's not 61 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,279 a typical story that I would do, but that's it. I got really 62 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:34,160 interested in the third world and financial colonialism and power and influence and all these 63 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:41,000 things, and that's often what happens. I like start with an interest in 64 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:44,759 one thing and then end up falling for something else. Well, it's a 65 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,439 really interesting story and it has a lot of pathos that you wouldn't expect on 66 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:57,000 the surface of the story. Yeah. Sure, but she's not the most 67 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,120 likable. No, it's it's you know, it's an interesting Yeah, it's 68 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,279 here to tell you that, but yeah, like I really want to like 69 00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:10,600 her, but she just sometimes says and does stuff that I'm like, Ah, 70 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,360 there's no hero in it, right, it's certainly like a anti hero 71 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:23,720 story because it's not someone that you would root for. And however, this 72 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,319 sort of opposing forces are far more malevolent and terrifying, and I think, 73 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:30,560 well, we're not up to the ending yet. But the point we try 74 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,160 to make at the end is that, like, she's not even well liked 75 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:41,920 necessarily by a lot of Beligians who started rooting for her because she represented something 76 00:05:41,959 --> 00:05:44,920 that they're all really familiar with, which is that like, if you have 77 00:05:45,079 --> 00:05:47,639 no power or agency, the institution is just due to you what they want 78 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,720 to do. I mean, of course this is not unique to Believes, 79 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:53,399 but it's way more on display in the Third World than it is here. 80 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:59,240 Well, not for long, I know, let's not go there. Yeah, 81 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,519 so you're still are you still currently working on the story. I think 82 00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:06,519 it's so interesting is that you're a journalist. Yeah, like what your life 83 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:10,480 is like and how if you get involved with these stories, you can't just 84 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,319 make a podcast about it and go okay, have a good Like you're working 85 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,680 on things for years. Yeah, you said three years you've been working on 86 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,639 this correct? Three years since it started? Yeah, I mean not, 87 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,040 you know, obviously not full time because I'm part owner of this company and 88 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,720 I executive produce other people shows and I work on other projects. But yeah, 89 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:32,120 for the most part, it's been part of my life for three years. 90 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,040 And before that, Hooked was part of my life for three years. 91 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,560 I mean the clearing was two years. Now. They overlap, like Hooked 92 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,759 was still going on as I started this one up, and we did Hollywood 93 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:47,240 and Conqueen at the same time as Hooked, and like Crime the Cecil Hotel 94 00:06:47,319 --> 00:06:53,600 project was right when the company was starting up. So I'm often juggling things, 95 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,639 but this was the major project in my life for the last two years, 96 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,360 certainly, and you know, we didn't know how long it would be 97 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,800 and how long I would work on it. As you might imagine it was 98 00:07:02,879 --> 00:07:10,800 legally pretty challenging. So the last six months have been very intense lawyering. 99 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:15,319 Wow. Yeah, I guess you would need a team lawyers. Wow. 100 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:19,240 Let's can we talk about Hooked just for a few minutes, because I of 101 00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:24,720 course love that podcast. It's so good for all of our listeners. You 102 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,959 know, I've talked about it before. It's about a I don't want to 103 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,600 spoil it, but it's a it's about two people that are robbing banks, 104 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:39,319 and there's that one talk about pathos a lot behind the scenes, drug addiction, 105 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:46,319 alcoholism. Did you get you got close to those to that guy too, 106 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,240 right? Yeah? So that was you know, it's similar to this 107 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:54,920 one in the sense that it was a headline that I was drawn to I 108 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,360 had seen. I was actually looking for a bank robbery story for reasons that 109 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:01,040 are too boring to even explain. But what I was looking for was a 110 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:07,639 objectively successful one. And I saw this story from the Seattle Paper about a 111 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,800 guy who'd robbed thirty banks in fifty two weeks or fifty four weeks, I 112 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:13,480 think, and I was like, WHOA, that's got to be some kind 113 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,319 of record. And it really didn't mention much at all about his story, 114 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,279 and so I wrote to him in prison. His name was Tony Hathaway, 115 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,720 and he wrote me back, I still got I read from the email on 116 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,560 the show, I think, and I've got it somewhere, and it was 117 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,959 like a real sucker punch of an email because he was like, I don't 118 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:35,120 know what you know about me. I was an engineer at Boeing, I 119 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,200 hurt my back, I was prescribed oxy conton you know, so on so 120 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,159 on, and I ended up addicted to heroin and I started robbing banks to 121 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:46,679 pay for my drug habit. And he doesn't mention his son in that email, 122 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,600 but I was like, WHOA, that's not the story that I thought. 123 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:52,759 I thought I was gonna write like a fun romp about this guy who 124 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,039 robbed a bunch of banks and was just good at it, because I I 125 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,679 largely considered bank robbery, I mean, not always a victimist crime. He 126 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,200 didn't carry a weapon, obviously, people get hurt all the time, but 127 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,879 you're stealing money from you know, insurance company basically, or the US government 128 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:13,159 or whatever. I did not know that that was going to be my almost 129 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,759 three year trip into the opiate epidemic, which is in the way that White 130 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:22,679 Devil is really a story about power and colonialism and what it's like to be 131 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:26,440 someone with no with no power facing sort of ultimate power. That was a 132 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,759 story about the opioid epidemic, and it just so happened to be about a 133 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:33,759 bank robber who provided a really I don't want to say fun way in but 134 00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:43,039 at least a cinematic way in the opposite. Like you, you can't help 135 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,559 it root for this guy even when he's getting ready. When he tells you 136 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,639 the story of getting ready to rob the bank, you're like, oh, 137 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,399 I hope he makes it. Oh God, I hope he gets away with 138 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:54,320 it. Yeah, And I haven't even said the worst part yet, because 139 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,159 it's he is really likable, and yet he robs the first bank with his 140 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,519 son, who goes to prison and Tony does not. So if I just 141 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,559 told you those facts, you'd probably be like, I don't like that guy 142 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,440 at all. And yet you hear his story and it's very hard not to 143 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:13,120 root for him. I mean, you know that he's been to prison and 144 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:16,759 come out, so it's not like he didn't pay any kind of penance for 145 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,399 his crimes or his sins, and he feels very guilty about it, obviously, 146 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,159 but the story of him and his son is just a gut wrenching because 147 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,360 his son also got addicted dopey. It's unrelated. It's not like they were 148 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,080 using drugs together, So it just happened like that was the Well, ultimately, 149 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,600 yes, but not at first. So when Tony, Tony doesn't know 150 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,000 his son is addicted until he finds out that he is, and then his 151 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,679 son doesn't know that Tony's addicted until he finds out, and they're both on 152 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:48,720 parallel tracks headed for disaster. They each realize that the other is an addict, 153 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,639 and then they begin to I mean, as they explain it, each 154 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,399 of them was worried that the other one would die, which I think is 155 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,679 a fair thing to worry. So they felt like it's better for us to 156 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:03,159 be together using I mean, and certainly not everybody. He's a likable guy. 157 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,919 I got messages about people who were like, how could you do that? 158 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,559 But he to this day will say like, I felt like my son 159 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,360 was safer with me than on his own on the streets. And you know, 160 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,000 in the logic of that moment, I think we even said in the 161 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,759 show, like that's what good parenting looked like to him at the absolute rock 162 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:24,399 bottom of his life. And luckily it has a happy ending because they're both 163 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:30,639 still alive and could have ended a lot worse. So great. One of 164 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:37,799 the things I found really interesting and real about it was his both of their 165 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,919 struggle with sobriety, and you know, there were times where you thought, 166 00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:46,399 you know, he got it together and he got help and he was sober, 167 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,120 and then you could hear it in the interviews. I remember there's this 168 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,360 one moment in a in one of the episodes that's like later in the series 169 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:00,440 where he sounds slurry and you're talking to him and you're like, well, 170 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,320 we're not really seems like we're not addressing the elephant in the room. Is 171 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,519 that he sounds a little like Annonicole Smith right now. And then eventually you 172 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:13,120 tell us, yeah, that he was started drinking again. It came out, 173 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,759 yeah, so you know in the moment. I don't remember how long 174 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:18,159 it took me to realize it. Obviously, when I listened to the tape 175 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,360 afterwards, I was like, this is so obvious, and you're not the 176 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,279 first person who's like, oh, you couldn't tell. And obviously ultimately I 177 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,519 did, and we started talking about it. But yeah, he fell off 178 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,480 the wagon, and we have to remember, so he gets out of prison, 179 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,159 he's just kind of getting back on his feet, and then the pandemic 180 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,919 hit, so he really had no chance to re ender society at a normal 181 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,840 time, and so there he is stuck at home and actually his son is 182 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,039 living with him at that time too, and later his grandson too, and 183 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,159 I think they didn't have jobs and they just started drinking. Yeah, and 184 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,919 obviously he's got to dig to personality clearly, and alcohol became a problem and 185 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:01,200 almost almost killed his on, Like, I think he got really in it. 186 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:05,279 And then his son quit Cold Turkey Tony did two. I mean the 187 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:09,960 third time he's quit Cold Turkey quit. Well, no, I guess Heroin 188 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:20,320 was in prison, soeah forced to quit. Yeah. It's so interesting though, 189 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,240 the personality type that would come up with the idea of robbing a bank 190 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,399 and then do it because it seems really scary and I'm a risk taker, 191 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,720 but I'm a risk taker with anxiety, So I always when I hear stories 192 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:37,840 like that, I'm always like, how do you like? What's that moment 193 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,039 when you're like, Okay, I really think I have this worked out, 194 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,759 but I'm really going to just walk in there, Like I feel like that's 195 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:48,159 like diving off of the highest high dive. So could you know mad respect 196 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,919 to people that go through with it, well yeah, you know they were 197 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,320 that addicted to heroin and running out of money, and I think just realized 198 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,480 we could do this, like I mean, and that's the when people ask 199 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,440 me, like why was he so good at I mean, he was an 200 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,279 engineer, right, he was designing airplanes before he became a heroin addict, 201 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:11,440 and so he just sort of solved it like a problem and thought, well, 202 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,360 you know, if I make it really quick, that's the most important 203 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,120 thing. I got to get in and out as quickly as you can, 204 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,080 and you think about like what could go wrong, and try and plan for 205 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,200 those eventualities, like well, you don't want to pull out and immediately be 206 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:24,200 in traffic, so you don't go at rush hour. You want to make 207 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,080 sure you're near I don't mean to be giving bank robbers less, by the 208 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,879 way, but make sure you're near like a highway, so that when you 209 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:33,000 get on a surface road you don't have to go very far and then you 210 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:37,679 kind of kind of escape. You know. We think that most bank robbers 211 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,360 get caught, and I think they do it's because they're acting in desperation. 212 00:14:41,519 --> 00:14:45,440 They're not usually thinking like I need money so badly, but I'm going to 213 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,279 spend three days working this out. They're just like, I need money really 214 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:48,840 badly, and I have a gun, and I'm going to walk in there 215 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:52,200 and take it, and then of course they get caught. It's as Tony 216 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,240 explained it, it's not actually that hard. But of course the flip side 217 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,399 of that is there's not a lot of money to take, so it's not 218 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:03,360 that hard to steel. Like he was getting two thousand and six thousand, 219 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,759 ten thousand dollars, which would cover his addiction for like a week or two 220 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,480 and then and that's why he robbed thirty banks, not because he loved it 221 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,960 so much if he had gotten like a million dollars the first time. But 222 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:16,720 the tellers don't, for a good reason, don't keep a lot of moneys 223 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,879 in the drawer money in the drawer, because then they would get robbed more 224 00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:24,080 often. So it's actually the banks have put in place a lot of defenses 225 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:28,159 to keep people from robbing banks often. You know, like you're not going 226 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,320 to walk out of there with a lot of money and you're probably gonna get 227 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,000 caught unless you're very careful. And he even he knew like okay thirty times, 228 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:39,039 like I'm not going to get away with this forever eventually, and it 229 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,279 saved his life, honestly, like he to this day is thankful for being 230 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,039 arrested. Do you still keep in touch with him? I do not as 231 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,799 often as I would like. I mean, there was almost a really happy 232 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:54,320 ending to that story, and that like six months ago I heard from him, 233 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,399 and he had been applying to Bowing over and over again since he got 234 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,120 out of prison, and I again, I think I may have said this 235 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:03,240 in the last episode. I was like, that would be the greatest ending 236 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:06,320 to the story if Bowing hired him. I mean, Bowing could use some 237 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,919 good pr let's be honest. Yeah, things have not gone well for Bowing 238 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,200 over the past couple of years. I was like, what a great story 239 00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:14,960 if they like hire this guy back and say, like we believe in second 240 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,960 chances. And he fell victim to circumstances that were not entirely in his control, 241 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,879 but unfortunately he got through I want to say, like two rounds. 242 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,399 And he asked me to write a recommendation and I did, and then they 243 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,120 ran a background check on him. Yeah, but of course, like he 244 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,720 was honest in his interview. It wasn't like he went in there and was 245 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:37,240 like, please explain this gap in your resume. He's like, let me 246 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:41,039 tell you the story, and apparently he started telling it and they stopped him 247 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:42,440 at one point. They're like, thank you for being honest. But then 248 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:47,960 of course they hired this outside agency firm to do the background check and then 249 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,279 they put forward a recommendation. And I guess that gets to Bowing's lawyers and 250 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,720 they're like, whoa wait, this guy's like a felon and was a drug 251 00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:56,200 egg and rob we can't hire him. And he's like, but I was 252 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,879 honest. I think it's it's a situation where or the system just couldn't make 253 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:03,920 an exception for him, no matter what the manager who wanted to hire him. 254 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,160 So that was a real bummer. I don't know, this was like 255 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,640 six months ago. I don't know if he's found a job since then. 256 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,400 I was really hoping that would be you know, I feel like I don't 257 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,519 know what, you know, having a previous drug addiction or robbing banks has 258 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:22,480 to do with how good you are at being an engineer, you know. 259 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,119 Yeah, No, it doesn't have anything to do with that. I think 260 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,240 it has more to do with what we as society, Like we tell ourselves 261 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:36,079 that people make mistakes, and they do their time to serve, you know, 262 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,599 to sort of pay for those mistakes, and then we forgive them and 263 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,160 we let them back into society. I don't think that's actually the truth. 264 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,519 It's very hard for people to overcome that scarlet letter. I mean, it's 265 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:48,960 a lesson we could probably all learn, which is like, you shouldn't be 266 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,759 judged on the worst day of your life or even the worst year in his 267 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,440 case, because I've spent a lot of time with that guy, Like he's 268 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,519 a good human being and you know, certainly didn't deserve what happened to him. 269 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:02,640 And I I'm not saying we should hand him the greatest job of all 270 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,559 time, but if he's qualified for a job at a company where he used 271 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:11,319 to work successfully, why not hire him again? If he's just because he 272 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,119 did something bad and served his time. So it's a bit of a bummer, 273 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:18,839 but I'm sure like lots of people listening to this who will not lots 274 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,359 However, many felons you have in your audience are probably like, tell me 275 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,559 about it, man, Like it's hard, you know, I don't know 276 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:29,519 if you guys are big with felons. All felons, all of them. 277 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:33,839 They're all doing time. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be 278 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:40,440 right back. All right, Okay, Yeah, that guy, though, 279 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,640 is so he is so he comes across as warm and intelligent and like somebody 280 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,279 you'd want to be friends with. And I think that's I mean, it's 281 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,440 not the only thing, but it's important when you're telling a story like that, 282 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,440 which is really like a character study of this guy's life completely, I 283 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:02,680 would say, like the similarity. My projects are all so different, but 284 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,079 three of them I put Conquein aside for a minute. We haven't talked about 285 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:08,160 that yet. But yeah, well one project that kind of serves it's like 286 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,039 its own specific use case. But Hooked, White Devil and The Clearing are 287 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:17,920 all shows where I met a person. I spent a long period of time 288 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,119 talking to that person, and that became the back bend. The bone of 289 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:26,200 the story is this like trust between subjects and journalists that led to this narrative. 290 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:27,559 Seeing a narrative in a way that I wouldn't normally have seen it, 291 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:30,720 Like, you know, you could kind of only tell Tony's story by talking 292 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:34,759 to him for a really long time. Same with April and the clearing, 293 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:38,359 like she has to let me into her world and be willing to tell me 294 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,000 everything about her past, And then the same with the Clearing, which what 295 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:47,039 was that story again? Her dad's a serial killer? Yes, yeah, 296 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:51,920 yeah yeah. And in all those cases though, it's really about like I 297 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,240 spent so much time talking to someone that I got to see a side of 298 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:57,000 the world that I wouldn't have seen of their life that I wouldn't have seen, 299 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,000 and like, you know, to go to I double for a second. 300 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,359 Whether or not you like Jasmine, it's hard to argue that like what 301 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,200 happened to her was not incredibly unjust and almost unbelievable, And the fact that 302 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:14,359 she is unlikable explains how she survived, right. I think only someone who 303 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,119 is like that much of a scrapper, who has like not really cared what 304 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,200 people think of her could have made it through what she went through. And 305 00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:26,799 Tony's case, only someone who is that like likable and kind and decent could 306 00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:30,079 tell the story that he told to me, including using heroin with his son 307 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,880 and robbing a bank together and have people not be like, oh yeah, 308 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,079 fuck you man, Like I'm not gonna feel sorry for you. Your son 309 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,480 went to prison and you didn't. He did. Ultimately, Well, so 310 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:45,920 how what is your process like finding these stories to do podcasts to do you 311 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,279 know, I know you're you're a journalist, but like, tell us how 312 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,160 what what do you look for? What's your process of like finding your next 313 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:57,400 project. I'm sort of stuck in that process right now. I don't have 314 00:20:57,519 --> 00:21:03,880 something to do that won't happen project. It's I'm a bit of a generalist 315 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,599 or no, I am definitely a generalist if you think, like you know, 316 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,680 the Clearing was about serial killer, but Hooked was about bank rubber and 317 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:14,559 a opiate epidemic. This one's about sort of financial corruption in a sense. 318 00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:18,200 And like con Queen's about a con and I wrote a book about the CIA, 319 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,640 it has much more to do with like And this is what makes this 320 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,240 question really hard to answer, even though I wish it wasn't because then my 321 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:29,319 life would be like I have a lot of easier time picking projects. It's 322 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,720 like they almost find me, which sounds like a dumb cliche, but it's 323 00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:34,640 sort of true. Like I really never thought that I was going to do 324 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,359 the story about Jasmine Harden and the Ashcroft family. I never thought I would 325 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,359 do a story about this guy in Seattle who robbed thirty banks. It's something 326 00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:48,440 a headline or a detail. And this is the case of the clearing too. 327 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,640 Actually, because I had read a headline about her father. This is 328 00:21:52,680 --> 00:22:02,359 April Vlascia Edwards was her maiden name, her father being this serial killer who, 329 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,240 you know, according to the story I read, had maybe murdered dozens 330 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,799 of people. I was like, Oh, why don't I know who this 331 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,640 person is? And then I look into it and I find out, well, 332 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,440 he may not have actually done that, but there's this cop in Montana 333 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,720 who's obsessed with him and tried to blame him for all those murders. So 334 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:19,640 I just started like poking at it, like digging a little bit, and 335 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,599 I got really interested, originally in the idea that there was this cop who 336 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,920 had an obsession with this murderer, and that maybe that cop had completely lost 337 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,559 his mind and was actually trying to blame him for things he didn't do. 338 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:34,759 I was like, what a crazy story that is? Like a cop was 339 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:37,640 trying to assign murders of someone who didn't commit them, even though he did 340 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,279 commit some murders and is already in prison, so we don't really need to 341 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,640 like prove that he's a terrible person. But in the process of doing that 342 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:48,839 one I'd reached out to April, his daughter, who was the person who 343 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,680 had him arrested, and she'd never spoken to anyone and just was at the 344 00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:56,279 right place at the right time and felt like she wanted to start opening up. 345 00:22:56,319 --> 00:22:59,359 And then we started having these conversations and she was like, would you 346 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,319 work with me on something to try and figure out what my dad did do 347 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,839 and what he didn't do, because she had also been grappling with this cop 348 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,279 trying to say her dad was the worst murderer. I mean, it's bad 349 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,880 enough that your dad is a murderer and that you had him arrested, like 350 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,920 plenty to deal with there, But then if there's someone out there saying, 351 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:15,960 like he also murdered all these other people, and you're like, I'm not 352 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,599 sure that he did, but I'm also not here to say that he's a 353 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:25,519 good person. Like what a strange conundrum that is for a child like my 354 00:23:25,599 --> 00:23:27,519 dad is a terrible person, and I helped get him arrested. But he's 355 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:30,319 not as terrible as this person is saying that he is. Like, it's 356 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,559 not like she was trying to clear his name, right, she was just 357 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,880 like I just wanted the truth to be out there, which I guess is 358 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,680 like the commonality in those three stories anyway, Hooked, White Devil, and 359 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:47,319 the Clearing or that they're all like an attempt to correct a narrative that exists. 360 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,640 You know, which is right. You know the story of jas and 361 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,400 Harten, if you believed it was that she would just kill this cop on 362 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,960 purpose or even if it was an accident, then tried to get away with 363 00:23:56,039 --> 00:23:59,640 it, when in reality that's not what happened at all. Hooked, it 364 00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:02,039 was like, oh, yeah, he robbed thirty banks, but you need 365 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,720 to know his backstory. And with the Clearing, it's yeah, April's dad 366 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:07,920 was a serial killer. Certainly he killed five people, not sure he killed 367 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,000 fifty, And so maybe we're like, we can tell the true story that 368 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,759 makes everybody feel a little bit better, including by the way, the family 369 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,440 members in cases who maybe have decided that he is the killer and he just 370 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:26,440 wasn't yeah, yeah, that's so true. Right. I have a question. 371 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:33,279 So with like the Hollywood con Queen, a lot of these stories seem 372 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,319 like ripe for the TV streaming movie adaptation. But if you don't have the 373 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,680 rights to them, like what happened with Hollywood con Queen, why is that 374 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:48,400 not your show? That's that's a that's a painful one. Well, because 375 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,119 you did the podcast first, correct we did? Yes, yeah, I 376 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,000 mean we do, or I do. Like in the case of the Clearing 377 00:24:56,079 --> 00:24:57,640 was not a campsite show, that was before we had the company. Same 378 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,640 with crime Scene, the a Hotel. So those are my own things before 379 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,319 I had the company, so I would have some portion of the rights. 380 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,160 Now as a company, we we typically have some portion, if not a 381 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:15,599 controlling interest in the rights, so that we at least are like major players 382 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,960 and any adaptation, it's certainly part of our business. The problem is what 383 00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:22,119 you're thinking of, or what you're talking about, is the Apple TV plus 384 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,839 docuseries about the con Queen in the dock space. There really is no such 385 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,240 thing as right like this as a scripted project. If someone wanted to make 386 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:36,519 a show called Chameleon Hollywood Conqueen, they couldn't because we own the rights. 387 00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:41,720 They actually also couldn't take our exact story in the way that we told it 388 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,680 and make a scripted project where they change the name like that would be a 389 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:52,240 violation of our rights. But in true nonfiction doc unfortunately, there's no protection. 390 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:55,319 So and I'm not saying that the people who did that doc actually were 391 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,960 simultaneously working on it to us, like I'm Scott Johnson, the Hollywood Report 392 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,559 or journalists who they used was on the story too, So it's you know, 393 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,759 you kind of can't own a true story. And what happens often is 394 00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:11,240 if you're not aggressive enough, if you don't move fast enough, and we 395 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,160 didn't, then someone else is just gonna do it and make a documentary. 396 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:21,720 And our lesson from that was we should be pretty aggressive in the documentary space, 397 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:26,160 and now we are. You know, we're trying to like simultaneously make 398 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,880 documentaries that come out of the podcast and not just scripted projects because scripted TV 399 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,160 is a crapshoot. We'll be lucky if, like you know, we have 400 00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:37,319 fifty podcasts, if like a handful of those make it to TV, someday 401 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,519 we will be doing well. But nothing has yet with docs. I think 402 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,480 you can have a higher batting average. And I sure wish that one was 403 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,559 ours, because I feel like we we kind of you told this story better. 404 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:53,039 You told it as more of you didn't give it away right from the 405 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,240 beginning, right, Yeah, and we were also I mean, that one 406 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,559 is a really hard one for us to be. Bro always like, why 407 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,200 don't you make another one like that? That is a really hard one to 408 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,279 emulate because what you heard was actually true. We were reporting and investigating in 409 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,759 real time, which is not a I would not recommend it as a strategy 410 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:17,079 for making a podcast because I mean, one of my other partners, Vanessa, 411 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,480 was co hosting it with me, and she would periodically say, like, 412 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,240 what if we don't find him, Like what's the ending going to be? 413 00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:25,279 And I was like, don't worry, We'll find him, and she's 414 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:26,640 like, yeah, but what if we don't, because there's only going to 415 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,519 be eight episodes, and like what happens? And I would say, don't 416 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:34,160 worry, we will. Luckily we did. I think I just convinced myself 417 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:41,920 that we would, and then we fortunately did solve it. I'm not convinced 418 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,359 that we still couldn't have made a satisfying show where we got close, or 419 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,720 we left it a little bit open ended, and then we're like, we'll 420 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:51,960 be back when they catch him. It certainly is way more satisfying by the 421 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:55,880 end of that show we're talking about don't you think it's weird in that show? 422 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,400 Like? What was why was he doing it? Really right? There 423 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,279 was no direct money that he was making. He was just making other people 424 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,240 spend their money on travel and not reimbursing them. But what was in it 425 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,880 for him? Well, I should quickly describe what he was doing. Right. 426 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,240 You can talk about Hollywood con Queen. For anybody that hasn't seen it, 427 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,279 listen to the podcast. It is behind a paywall, but it's worth 428 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:22,119 it. If you haven't heard it the first time, I like to say, 429 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,519 yeah, it's part of Sony's binge. It is definitely worth it. 430 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:26,640 You can also hear another great show of ours called Wild Boys, which is 431 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,279 a favorite. I had nothing to do with that one. It's about a 432 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:37,000 person and it's not immediately clear whether it's a man or a woman who is 433 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:42,680 impersonating Hollywood executives and calling aspiring below the line talent. So like stuntmen and 434 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:48,720 photographers and makeup artists, and like the jobs that like make movies happen, 435 00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:52,279 but aren't famous people that do them. So those are people who are always 436 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:56,359 like middle class living basically, and it's still so competitive and hard to break 437 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,119 into. And so this person would call up, pretending to be like a 438 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,119 studio executive and say like, I want you to be, yeah, be 439 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,200 the head Amy Pascal saying I want you to be the head hair and makeup 440 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,480 person on my movie. And it's filming in Indonesia and all you have to 441 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:14,160 do is get yourself there. And I know, like, if you haven't 442 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,960 listened to the show, you're thinking like, oh, come on, like 443 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:18,519 who would do that? Turns out hundreds of people did it. We thought 444 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,680 it was dozens, and now I'm pretty sure it's hundreds. And I would 445 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,839 have done it. I would have been such a sucker for that. I 446 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,680 mean, as you know, Vesa and I were both freelance magazine journalists before 447 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,400 we did this, So for us, it was really easy to imagine because 448 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,359 like numerous times in my career, someone who I've never met a magazine editor, 449 00:29:38,519 --> 00:29:41,640 or someone who could have been impersonating a magazine editor would send me an 450 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,000 email or call me and say like, hey, do you want to go 451 00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:48,440 to France and interview this person. I'm like, hell yes, and they're 452 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,400 like, okay, well, you got to buy yourself a ticket and we'll 453 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,039 pay you back. And in my experience they always paid me back. But 454 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:56,519 I did front my own expenses many times, and so I wasn't that weird. 455 00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,920 And I think if you don't work in the gig economy in this, 456 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:03,480 especially in the creative world, like it's not that unusual. It is a 457 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,759 little unusual if you work in Hollywood and you're like Amy Pascal is not calling 458 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,880 the makeup artist, right, That's where it was unbelievable, you know, 459 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,799 or like hiring stuntman Kathleen Kennedy or Stacy Snyder, they're not hiring the stunt 460 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:21,119 men. They're basically they hired the director and like the lead actors and actresses, 461 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,519 and then other people do that, yes, anyway, putting that aside, 462 00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:26,880 and then that like dozens, if not hundreds of people go. He 463 00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:32,599 was making money because there were people there who were like the cab driver, 464 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,559 the hotel manager were like cutting him in and he operated at such volume that 465 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,640 we do think he made six figures, if not well into the seven figures 466 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,079 but still your question is valid, and everyone to this day asked me like, 467 00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:48,400 even if he was making quite a bit of money, it's still way 468 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,279 too much work to justify, Like like what would make you think you'd even 469 00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:55,519 get away with it? It's so crazy. One day you sit down and 470 00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:56,680 you're like, you know what I'm gonna do for a living. I'm gonna 471 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,400 make up a fake movie and I'm gonna pretend to be powerful people, and 472 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,480 I'm going to hire hire people to go and work on that movie, and 473 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,160 they're gonna pay like one thousand dollars. And if I get one hundred people 474 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,559 to do it, that's one hundred thousand dollars. It's just insane. He's 475 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,240 not passive income for sure, it is he. I mean, you're a 476 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,839 box money. And if you think so, these people are in Indonesia on 477 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,599 the set, you know, he's got to deal with Hollywood people who are 478 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,960 in the Pacific time zone. And then he was like often in England, 479 00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:32,759 we found out later. And so if you think of the time zones that 480 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,640 are being managed and all these different people, like the project management required for 481 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,920 that, like he would have been a really good actual movie producer, a 482 00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:45,400 sociopatht Yeah. I mean it's the amount of volume of work that he put 483 00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:49,759 into it, like writing scripts, right and like sending it to them and 484 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,839 you know scripts, and like multiple cell phones he was. He would be 485 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,920 like four personalities on a given day, like a man, a woman, 486 00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:02,920 a producer, a director. It was like level he had at the same 487 00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:07,519 time. Oh, and there were calls. We have recordings of him being 488 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,799 like the studio ahead that's a woman, and then her assistant, who's a 489 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,279 man. So he would like click, you know, hold for my assistant 490 00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:15,200 and then he changes his voice. I mean it's it's kind of incredible. 491 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,839 But he was sally harassing people too. Yeah. I mean where it goes 492 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,720 from like amusing to sort of disturbing is that, Yeah, he was sexually 493 00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:32,640 harassing men because he's gay. He was also like really messing with people's heads, 494 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:36,039 like and this is like, you know again to go back to the 495 00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:40,480 gig economy. I think when you think that you've gotten the break that you've 496 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,200 been waiting for forever and it turns out to be fake, it just destroys 497 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:49,119 your ego and your and your confidence and your sense of self. And I 498 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,000 remember talking to this actor who we didn't put him in the show. He 499 00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:55,279 called me, I think after the show came out, just to like thank 500 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,920 us for helping stop this. And he said he was in his forties. 501 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,759 He was like a really handsome guy. He's like, I I scrapped and 502 00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,119 I clawed, and I tried everything to make it in this town, and 503 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,680 I just I just ultimately decided to give up. And I was I was 504 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,799 like, I'm working in a bar and I'm doing fine, and you know, 505 00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:15,200 I've got a kid now, and then this opportunity popped into my life. 506 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:19,799 And for like a month, I had hoped that like this thing that 507 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,440 I had all but given up, that I thought was never going to happen 508 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,119 to me, finally did happen. And like miracles do happen, and you 509 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,559 do get your break. And then he's like when it turned out to be 510 00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,680 a scam, it just completely shattered him. He was like in therapy and 511 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,519 just like had nothing left in confidence. And I felt so bad for him. 512 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:42,119 And that's where it became like a Haha, it's kind of a funny, 513 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:44,880 you know, it's a great party story, and like people are like, 514 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:47,200 how bad really was it? And some of these people were left the 515 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,839 business because of it, or some of these men who were sexually harassed, 516 00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:54,079 who were like sending nudes or who were like doing you know, quote unquote 517 00:33:54,119 --> 00:34:01,599 sex scenes by a video cam, like they were obviously traumatized and hurt. 518 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,000 And then there were like people like Heather the makeup artists as an episode two, 519 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,800 she feared for her life because when she realized it was a scam, 520 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,239 she didn't know what it was right, so she when it dawned on her, 521 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,519 she was in a cab in Jakarta in traffic, in like a bad 522 00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:21,719 neighborhood with a cab drivers speaking Indonesia, and she's like, am I about 523 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:27,239 to be raped and murdered? Like yeah, and so to her, even 524 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,639 when she found out what it was, she thought like, in my head, 525 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,880 for a brief amount of time, I thought I was going to die, 526 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:37,199 and then on top of that, I had money taken and I was 527 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,360 exploited, and I feel terrible. But it was more for her, like 528 00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:44,400 there was real trauma done. And then there were a handful of people who 529 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,559 kind of were amused by it, or at least were like, uh, 530 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,079 I'm okay, turned out alright for me. Approximately how many people did he 531 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:59,480 did he con We think it may be in the hundreds. Wow, that's 532 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:04,800 insane because by the way, and when he he didn't even stop, he 533 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,199 overlapped. He moved to London and then became a food world scammer on the 534 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:15,920 side. Yeah, he had a blog. He would go into restaurants and 535 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,280 tell the chef that he was like somebody famous and he was making a Netflix 536 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,960 show and they would comp him food. Okay, like this is At the 537 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,440 same time, I'm like, how did this guy sleep right and get some 538 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:31,559 ideas? Though we're in a golden age of scams. Anyone out there who's 539 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:35,199 got a great idea in a little initiative. I think the internet has made 540 00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:38,960 it pretty so easy. I gotta drink more coffee, like get more energy, 541 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,559 Like yeah, you know, I get I have a lot of ideas, 542 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,119 no following through exactly. And also with AI now too, I'm sure 543 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:52,159 it's like pretty easy to do. It's going to be scary, right because 544 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:53,679 he had to do the voices. Now he's just going to be able to 545 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:59,440 get like chat GPT to do the voice right, right. Okay, so 546 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,559 should we break against'say, let's take another quick break. Okay, I want 547 00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:09,239 to talk about the Cecil Hotel. Now, I want to know how you 548 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,440 got into that one. Also, by the way, this just occurred to 549 00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:17,719 me. Have you heard the podcast Killed, which is about it's about I 550 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:23,039 don't think so. I'm pretty sure it's called Killed. It's about newspaper it's 551 00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:30,079 about like magazine writers and there's stories that get killed and then what the story 552 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,880 was and what happened behind the scenes. I have said it's justin Harmon. 553 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,519 Yeah, I do know it. It was an audio Chuck show. Yes, 554 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:43,079 that's a pretty good show. You Yeah, so did you? Is 555 00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:47,559 that how you started out? You started as a journalist after college. Yeah, 556 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:52,360 so I moved to New York to work in magazine journalism, and like, 557 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,599 it was definitely not an overnight success because it was a tough business to 558 00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:01,480 break into, and I worked on staff at various places and then ended up 559 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,840 at Men's Journal, which was a men's lifestyle magazine owned by Yon Winner, 560 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,360 who owned Rolling Stone. Yeah, and I was there for a while and 561 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,079 I got fired. Why he was the best. You know, editors in 562 00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:19,039 chief would change quite often, especially if you worked for Yon Winner, so 563 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,199 you would like he was a very mercurial I mean, he's still alive, 564 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,039 so he still probably is a mercurial guy. He was a little bit temperamental, 565 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:28,000 so he fired people, and then ultimately I think I had the fourth 566 00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:30,760 editor in five years, and he and I just didn't get along very well, 567 00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:35,159 and so he fired me. And it was one of those like pivotal 568 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,800 I mean really pivotal moment, because I remember thinking, like, I could 569 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,079 go get another job, but really, what I want to do is just 570 00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:45,679 right all the time, So why don't I try and be a freelance writer. 571 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,599 And then for the next fifteen years that's what I did. I wrote 572 00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:52,360 magazine features, including for Men's Journal, because of course he got fired at 573 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,239 some point. Then another one came in and I was back in good graces, 574 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,519 and so I just wrote magazine stories for Yeah, I want I think 575 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:07,519 fift yeah, fifteen years. Wrote two books and then books. Tell us 576 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:10,719 your books to see it. What's the CIA book. It's called The Taking 577 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:17,159 of K one twenty nine and it's about a really Banana's operation to steal a 578 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:22,360 submarine from the Russian This is true story a sunken submarine that had a bunch 579 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,880 of secrets on it, and the government convinced Howard Hughes to create this elaborate 580 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:30,960 cover story that they were trying to mine the bottom of the ocean, and 581 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,639 then they built the ship to like basically steal the submarine without anybody knowing it. 582 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:39,840 It's like one of those like truly stranger than fiction stories from during the 583 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,880 Cold War. Now you're really getting to see how eccentric my interests are, 584 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,440 because when I tell you what, my husband would love this book. By 585 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,559 the way, I'm gonna I'm gonna order it for him when I get home. 586 00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:52,639 What's it called again? The Taking of K one two nine, Okay, 587 00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:58,280 okay? And then the subhit head is something like how the CIA used 588 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,480 toward Hughes to steal a Russian submarine something like I should probably know that, 589 00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:06,960 but I don't remember, okay. And then my first book, this will 590 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,039 tell you there here's like the spectrum of so there's like one about the CIA 591 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:13,199 and the Cold War. My first book was called show Dog. I spent 592 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:19,119 a year on the competitive dog shows circuit. I love it to write about 593 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,320 what it was like. It was like, my idea was basically, I 594 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,800 love best in show. I wonder if it's actually like that, and it 595 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:32,280 really yes, yeah, like parody, but like only with the dial turned 596 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,079 up like three notches. Like all of those people in that movie are like 597 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:44,360 real archetypes you will find on the dog show circuit. And it was really 598 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:49,039 fun and and lightning. And you know, my was my son was born 599 00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:52,000 that year, so like my wife while she was pregnant, was getting dragged 600 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,400 around to dog show like she was real patient with me because she spent like 601 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,039 every weekend at a dog show somewhere in the eastern the United States. And 602 00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:07,360 that was Yeah, that was the first one. And then and then it 603 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,800 was mostly just doing books or was going to keep doing books and magazine stories, 604 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,719 and then the clearing came along. And actually right around the time that 605 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,280 I did the clearing is when I started work on that the crime scene, 606 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,280 the docuseries you're talking about for Netflix, which was also based on a magazine 607 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,719 story of mine that I had written for a publication. It was like a 608 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,199 digital what was the name of it, medium? Are you talking about Medium? 609 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,880 Yes? Yeah, so Medium is like a self publishing site though, 610 00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:38,280 so they had a professional arm for a well they Okay, so that must 611 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,800 have been a long time ago, because I went and read your entire Medium 612 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,760 article, which is really long. It's got like six thousand words I think 613 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,400 maybe more maybe more like ten. Okay, it's really long, and it 614 00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:55,119 was so good. And by the way, we I completely agree with your 615 00:40:55,199 --> 00:41:00,639 take on it and have. So we're talking about Alisa Lamb and of Alisa 616 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,000 Lamb, who for people that most people know who that is. But she 617 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:09,440 was at the Cecil Hotel. She was on vacation and she there was that 618 00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:15,360 famous viral video of her in an elevator looking like with her hands and pushing 619 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,840 all the buttons and then she steps out of the elevator and then she stubspecon 620 00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:23,280 and then they found her body in a water tower above the on the roof 621 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:29,719 of the hotel. And I know Lynette and I were fascinated with this story 622 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:34,760 for so long and it was such a crazy mystery. So how did you 623 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,960 get started on that one? Because you got real involved and then you're in 624 00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:42,639 the documentary. But that's a TV documentary. That's not a podcast, right, 625 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,400 No, it's a TV docu. It was a Netflix documentaries four parts, 626 00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:50,039 And I want to know your thoughts of what exactly happened. Okay, 627 00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:54,119 all right, a lot of questions. I'll start with what it was the 628 00:41:54,199 --> 00:41:58,599 premise of it, you know, similar to what I said about how White 629 00:41:58,599 --> 00:42:00,159 Devil started with a premise, which is like what, like, how could 630 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,239 this have happened? How does this one person end up dead? And the 631 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,199 person who must have done it seems like the last person in the world. 632 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,639 This was one where a woman goes missing in this hotel in downtown LA. 633 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,679 It's pretty CD it's like known for transience and like it's not the kind of 634 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:17,480 place you would stay if you know you knew where you're going. But she 635 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:22,360 was a college kid from Canada who probably booked it on the internet and had 636 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,480 no idea where she was staying, ends up dead on the roof. Well 637 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:30,480 is missing for a while, and then it's ultimately found dead in a water 638 00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:34,679 tank on the roof, and the cops say very little to the public, 639 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,880 but they do release this like last known sighting video, which is CCTV footage 640 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,000 from the elevator, as you said, of her like making weird gestures, 641 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,639 and the internet just took it and ran. They were like, oh my 642 00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:49,360 god, she's possessed. It's got to be ghosts or like that. You 643 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,599 know, that's a hotel that and this is true. Two different serial killers 644 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:57,079 had lived in in the past they were no longer there, including the night 645 00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:01,280 Socker yep, and then a copycat German guy who came pretending to write a 646 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,679 book about like LAPD and in fact use it as a cover to kill prostitutes. 647 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,480 Oh yeah. So it had all of the elements to be an incredible 648 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:16,880 mystery like supernatural White Hotel. And it was like right at the beginning of 649 00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:23,760 the internet web sleuth explosion, so like read it and unsolved read it on 650 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,920 Soolved Mysteries and web slutes dot com, all these places where people were gathering 651 00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:34,800 to quote unquote solve crimes latched onto this and found all kinds of crazy things 652 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,679 that they felt like, you know, it was murdered, she was set 653 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:38,880 up, it was the government, it was ghosts. It was like, 654 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,440 you know, a million different theories in my story was meant to sort of 655 00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,480 follow the you know again, to go back to all these I mean White 656 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,760 Devil being the most recent example. It's like, what happens if we just 657 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,480 follow the facts of what actually happened instead of all of the stuff around the 658 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:59,360 xterior that that's painting a different narrative and at least it's all those weird coincidences 659 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:06,079 though, like what was the word something lamb Like, oh yes, lamb 660 00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:12,400 Alisa was the name of a medicine given to There was a hep a or 661 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,199 hep seb outbreak in the homeless population nearby because La skid Row is right around 662 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,960 the corner. Yeah, and the medication given to them was Lamb dash Elisa, 663 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,360 which is her name backwards. Yeah, there's so many weird There was 664 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:31,119 a bunch of weird stuff that lent itself to conspiracy theories or like the body 665 00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:36,719 was ultimately discovered because a British couple that was staying in the hotel opened the 666 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:42,840 faucet and like discolored water came out. And that's also roughly the premise of 667 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,920 the Jennifer Jennifer Connolly movie Dark Was it dark Water? She's staying in a 668 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:52,320 haunted hotel where dark water porsche from the ceiling and the body is ultimately found 669 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:59,800 in a water tank. It's crazy. I mean, all that said, 670 00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:02,719 it's when you actually like look at the facts of it. There was no 671 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,760 evidence of foul play. I mean, you know, I don't believe that 672 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:12,639 ghosts are killing people. Some people might. The footage was almost you know, 673 00:45:12,679 --> 00:45:15,199 it's very hard to confirm as one hundred percent because I couldn't get the 674 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:17,239 original footage, but it was probably not being played at It was like playing 675 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,400 back at an abnormal speed, so that like behavior that you were seeing in 676 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,639 the video was probably not what it looked like at real speed. Also, 677 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:30,199 and maybe most importantly, she had psychological problems and had stopped taking her medication. 678 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:34,440 So very likely. Yeah, I think she was bipolar. Yeah, 679 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,599 which was yeah, which and we've had I mean, I know personally no 680 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:45,840 people with bipolar disorder and seeing somebody in a manic episode. There's manic episodes, 681 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,880 and then there's sort of like psychotic break within a manic episode caused by 682 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:57,039 bipolar and it creates behavior that's very similar. I mean, it happens, 683 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,280 yeah, and if you you know, not to give give away the ending, 684 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,320 but I think I think, yeah, if you look at what she 685 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,719 was doing, kind of peering around the corner, looking nervous, like, 686 00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:12,039 it's very likely she believed that she was in danger or someone was following her. 687 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:14,559 And I you know, I talked to a friend of mine who's a 688 00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:16,760 shrink who's in the show, and he was like, if someone really was 689 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,599 going through that kind of episode and was having a psychotic break of some kind, 690 00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:24,079 truly believe that she was being followed or in danger, ends up on 691 00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:29,320 the roof and sees this ladder. In that moment, you might believe that, 692 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,639 like jumping into that tank is the safest place you can go because like, 693 00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:34,480 no one's going to look for me here. But then, sadly, 694 00:46:34,559 --> 00:46:37,400 what happened when she got in there, she almost certainly couldn't go out get 695 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,800 out, and then there were you know, of course lots of speculation about 696 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,639 her body because she was found either nude or in her underwear, and of 697 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,960 course people thought, oh, sexual assault. Well, if you talk to 698 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:52,239 like a medical professional who's like dealt with drownings or near drownings, like people 699 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,960 often take their clothes off when they're very cold, even though it sounds counterintuitive. 700 00:46:58,639 --> 00:47:00,960 For one thing, it weighs you down, but also it makes you 701 00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:04,679 feel like you feel like you need to shed your clothing for whatever reason. 702 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,639 And so like it's not weird that she would have done that if she was 703 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:10,559 trapped in there and ultimately drowned. And so it's just a horrible tragedy of 704 00:47:10,639 --> 00:47:16,440 a woman who had psychiatric problems and stopped taking her medication for better or worse, 705 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,679 had an episode at the wrong place with no friends or family around, 706 00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:23,920 made a series of bad decisions, and died. And it's like a terrible 707 00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:28,519 ending. And I feel horrible for you know, her family, for having 708 00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:32,119 to live through this internet conspiracy meme, right, And you know, it's 709 00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:38,199 like with everything else, you you have moments of existential drama of like am 710 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,280 I doing the right Like are we making people's lives worse by trying to tell 711 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,079 the true story because you're making it a bigger deal. And that series was 712 00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:50,360 huge when it came out during the pandemic, and I'm sure for the family 713 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,679 it was terrible. I mean, I just wrote some stuff at the end 714 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,920 of White Devil that says the same thing about Henry rama, which is like 715 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,559 having this story told publicly is not a thing the family ever wants to hear, 716 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,480 whether or not you know the person you're talking about is guilty you're not 717 00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:08,800 guilty, or whether it's a crime or not a crime if you're close to 718 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,880 the family, or if you're in the family of a victim of a crime 719 00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:15,639 or a tragic circumstance, like the last thing you probably want to do is 720 00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:22,440 have it become widely known publicly, and obviously as journalists we have some culpability 721 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:28,400 in that. I feel like you wrote about that a lot in the Medium 722 00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:30,480 article, which you can read for free, by the way, if you 723 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:34,719 just go to Medium and look up Josh Dean, or look up the Elisa 724 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,000 hotel or look, you can read that whole article. And you really do 725 00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:42,320 grapple with that in a I think, I think in a very sensitive way 726 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,239 of like what is your responsibility? And are you making things worse? And 727 00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:51,719 you know, what is what is the point of all of this? You 728 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:53,360 know, we I have those feelings all the time. Like I said, 729 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:58,599 I just had them again, and as we recorded the finale of White Double 730 00:48:58,639 --> 00:49:00,559 the other day, I like felt we had to I felt like we had 731 00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:02,920 to write a new ending to accommodate it because I just needed to be said, 732 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,280 and in that one, especially because I just think if I you know, 733 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,679 if that's if you're in that family, it's not so much even though 734 00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:14,320 I'm sure this is terrible, like that it's widely covered. I mean, 735 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,519 there's certain murders and cases that are just widely covered and there's nothing you can 736 00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:22,599 do about that. It's the fact that she was like almost a meme and 737 00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,079 that people were like saying these crazy things in the family. It's probably like, 738 00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:29,920 no, she was she had problems in this. You know. The 739 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,400 explanation is not that it's not that hard to solve. Why are you saying 740 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,719 that there was ghosts or why are you saying it's a serial killer? Why 741 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,440 are you? And the fact that the people on the internet who try and 742 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,159 solve these crimes don't have those feelings, I think I don't. Rarely are 743 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,079 they thinking, Oh, I wonder if this is upsetting for me to say 744 00:49:45,159 --> 00:49:50,119 that, like ghosts killed this family's daughter, right, Like I more like 745 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,320 I'm the only one who sees the truth. And you know, as a 746 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:59,400 journalist you're trying to only tell the truth at least hopefully, but I'm not 747 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,079 sure it like makes families feel any better. That's gotta be tough, Yeah, 748 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,199 I think about that when I watch crime documentaries that think about the family 749 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:13,159 and how they must feel seeing, you know, their story of their loved 750 00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:17,280 one being told. It's gotta be hard. It's you know, very popular 751 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,559 genre and like I'm certainly not here throwing stones, Like I have a company 752 00:50:21,639 --> 00:50:24,039 that has done plenty of crime stories, and we try and you know, 753 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:29,199 at least have layers to what we're doing, like to make sure that you 754 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:30,800 know, it's not just about the crime. If I think about the clearing, 755 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:36,599 which is the thing I've done that's probably the most like it's about a 756 00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:38,480 cerracill, right, I think that's where people get the most uncomfortable. It's 757 00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:42,039 like, oh, the Ted Bundy tapes. We're like treating Ted Bundy as 758 00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,119 entertainment. This is pretty horrible. And the clearing is the one where I 759 00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:49,119 probably felt the most like is this something I want to do? But because 760 00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:53,559 I was working with the daughter of this guy and the person who ultimately led 761 00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:57,760 to his arrest, and she was kind of the one driving the project in 762 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,840 the sense that I wasn't like, hey, come, I did ask for 763 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,000 an interview, but I didn't say, hey, let's do a project together 764 00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:06,000 where we set out to like tell the true story of what did or did 765 00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:08,320 not happen in your father's life. It was her very much wanting to know, 766 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,760 like the life I thought that I knew was kind of a lie. 767 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,519 You're a journalist, maybe you can help me like write my own biography, 768 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,480 which I think is how I would describe what that project was, and so 769 00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:23,400 I felt like, you know, it had a redeeming quality to it because 770 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,239 she was there. If it had just been me, it starts to become 771 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,039 a little murkier of like, eh, what am I trying to do here? 772 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,559 But when we do projects, you know, Suspect, which my partner 773 00:51:34,639 --> 00:51:37,079 Matt Shared did like our biggest show ever. Again, the premise of it 774 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,440 is like a true true crime catinet it's a murder at a Halloween party. 775 00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:45,320 Who committed this murder? In reality, what it is is a story about 776 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:51,559 wrongful policing and the fact that the person sent away for that murder for four 777 00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:53,840 years about charges was the only black guy at the party, right, it 778 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,000 was all white people and one black guy. He's the one who goes to 779 00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,840 of course he didn't do it. And the guy who will certainly did do 780 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:07,320 it walked out, was able to keep his phone, you know. And 781 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,679 so on that project, we didn't set out to like do this like Twisty 782 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:15,039 who done it? It was more like what went wrong here and what can 783 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:17,360 we do to try and point the finger at the right person or who we 784 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:22,039 think is the right person? And actually that you know that project led to 785 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:28,679 Emmanuel the wrongfully well not convicted, wrongfully charged. He's now suing King County 786 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,880 for millions and I hope he gets it. And what's the name of that 787 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,559 podcastspect Aspect? This is the thing three seasons now, I think that was 788 00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:39,199 season one. Okay, So Lynette and I, I'll speak for both of 789 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:45,400 us, we originally liked true crime a lot. But the things that we 790 00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:49,920 like about true crime are what you're talking about. It's the human story behind 791 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,599 it. Like I do not like or care for anything that's just about serial 792 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,920 killers, or I don't. I don't really anymore listen to like sort of 793 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,679 the one offs that are just about, like you know, I don't. 794 00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:04,440 I don't want to hear just about a murder. I want we want to 795 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,760 hear right, like the humans story about it, the psychological part, the 796 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:13,840 people involved, the police stuff, all the stuff. And I feel like 797 00:53:14,119 --> 00:53:19,679 all almost everything that's in your catalog is like right up our alley. That's 798 00:53:19,679 --> 00:53:24,000 why we were so so tell tell us more more of your titles. Well 799 00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:27,480 just quickly on that point. I'm glad to hear you say that that's like 800 00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:31,639 what that's our We try and when we pick stories, do the stories that 801 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,599 you know. Obviously they need to have commercial appeal. We want people to 802 00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:37,400 listen to them in large numbers, but we hope that there's some layer or 803 00:53:37,559 --> 00:53:43,559 layers beyond that, which is, you know, either we're doing some good 804 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,480 by telling the story in eversially it hasn't been told before, or you know, 805 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,440 from a perspective of someone who's like someone you do want to root for, 806 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,000 or or like you know, in the case of hook, we're talking 807 00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:55,599 it's really the story they will be an epidemic just happens to be about a 808 00:53:55,599 --> 00:54:00,280 bank robber, because if it was just the story of you know, some 809 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,079 hopeless addict, you might never listen to it. Even though we can argue 810 00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:06,679 about whether you should or shouldn't write, like if it's too bleak, you're 811 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:07,679 just like, I don't know that I want to go there, So I 812 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:12,079 don't want to say we trick people into it, but we try and find 813 00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:15,599 stories that, you know, in the case of Suspect, for instance, 814 00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:22,199 like the reason Matt did that is because Emmanuel the wrongfully charged black man wrote 815 00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,639 to Mat because Matt had written a story for Atlantic. I think about touch 816 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,920 DNA and how it's kind of bullshit and all these cases have convictions have gone 817 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,679 through with expert testimony based on touch DNA, which is the idea that like 818 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,960 if you pick up a coke can, some amount of your DNA is on 819 00:54:37,039 --> 00:54:40,280 there. Turns out to be like wildly speculative in most cases, and it 820 00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:45,880 flat out wrong. And so Emmanuel in prison, stuck there in King County 821 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,119 jail, wondering like how do I get out of this hell? Having to 822 00:54:47,159 --> 00:54:52,519 pick up that article, wrote to Matt, and we all get these letters. 823 00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:55,320 And of course everybody in prison is innocent, right, I mean, 824 00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:00,000 that's like almost unanimously to They'll all tell you that they're innocent or not innocent, 825 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,280 but enough of them are that if you pay attention sometimes And in that 826 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,079 case, Matt did started communicating with the manual, read a little bit about 827 00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:10,679 the story, realized like this guy did definitely did not do it, and 828 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:16,039 like what the hell went wrong? And like that's one where the story kind 829 00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:21,320 of found him in the way I was describing earlier, and some of our 830 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,119 other stories, like, I mean, another very successful show we did because 831 00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:30,760 called Devil in the Ditch, which was about a woman Larryson Campbell's her name 832 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:36,039 from a sort of southern Gothic town in Mississippi, and her grandmother was killed 833 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,400 and they always suspected that someone in the family did it, but that person 834 00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:44,400 was never charged. And she goes back to kind of like dig up old 835 00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:47,000 ghosts in her family, and it's like, is it a good idea to 836 00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:50,280 try and solve a murder inside your own family or not? I think the 837 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,199 jury is out. If you asked her, depends who in her family you 838 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,480 asked whether that was a good idea or not. But again, really interesting 839 00:55:58,559 --> 00:56:06,360 with some of them, maybe not all of them. Or you know, 840 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,519 our other the show that won podcast Atcavey that sort of the best picture of 841 00:56:10,559 --> 00:56:15,800 podcasts two years ago is called Wild Boys. It's also in the Chameleon Yeah, 842 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,960 yeah, great, loved the Chameleon franchise. There was Wild Birdies. 843 00:56:21,079 --> 00:56:23,519 Yeah, but that's the kind of stories that I love. Do you know, 844 00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:29,599 do you remember that podcast Lynnette about the two about the brothers that just 845 00:56:29,679 --> 00:56:35,239 like our turn up and they said that they were raised basically by wolves. 846 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,360 Uh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they walk into a like a rural 847 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,000 British Columbia town and say, yeah, they grew up in the woods with 848 00:56:44,119 --> 00:56:50,239 no modern no computers, no TV, eating like foraging for calories, and 849 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,559 they fooled this entire town to the extent that like Canada's version of sixty Minutes 850 00:56:54,639 --> 00:57:00,400 profiles the like wild boys of Vernon, British Columbia. And of course it 851 00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:06,480 was not true. Wow, that was a crazy story though. Yeah, 852 00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:09,400 and and that one, you know, that's one we might have done it. 853 00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:15,039 But Sam Mullins very talented host. Sam grew up in that town and 854 00:57:15,159 --> 00:57:19,320 he remembered it, and at some point in his adult life he wasn't He 855 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,000 was not a journalist. He was like a performed spoken word performer comedian, 856 00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:25,840 and that's rare for us because almost all of our host journalists. But he 857 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:30,239 was a very talented storyteller and he just these were his like the woman who 858 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:36,000 kind of took the boys in and arguably saved the younger one who almost died 859 00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:38,800 because he was a fruitarian, like living on not enough calories to survive, 860 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:43,199 and she saved him. And like Sam, she was like Sam's mom's best 861 00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:45,440 friend. So he just had trust of this town to tell the story of 862 00:57:45,519 --> 00:57:50,159 what happened, how it got taken, and then ultimately the truth came out. 863 00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:52,559 And then the second half of that series is about what they're doing now, 864 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,599 and that's one where we are in the process of making a documentary. 865 00:57:54,639 --> 00:58:01,639 So hopefully that's that's awesome, that deserves a documentary. It does. And 866 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,079 I sometimes like to say, like, and this is not true of every 867 00:58:06,159 --> 00:58:07,960 show we made, but most of them, it's like the person who's doing 868 00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:12,360 it is hopefully the only person in the world who could really do that story 869 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,960 well, which not in one hundred percent of our cases, but it's often 870 00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:21,519 like you know, Larison's family or Sam's hometown, or that you know Emmanuel 871 00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:23,599 wrote only to Matt or you know, it's like Tony and I was the 872 00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:27,320 only person talking to Tony. It wasn't like people were chasing that story. 873 00:58:29,159 --> 00:58:31,519 And I think that's the barliest buyer to hit, which is like, we're 874 00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:35,559 not just doing this for entertainment. We're doing it because the person who's telling 875 00:58:35,599 --> 00:58:40,320 you has the you know, empathy, understanding skill set to like do it 876 00:58:40,639 --> 00:58:45,920 in the most definitive way possible and hopefully it's a net positive even if it's 877 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:52,119 about something terrible. Well, you're doing the Lord, Yes, camp Side 878 00:58:52,199 --> 00:58:55,920 Media, White Devil, listen to it. The finale's not out yet. 879 00:58:57,079 --> 00:59:02,280 I think I just listened to episode ten this morning. Leven eleven, Yeah, 880 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:08,000 okay, ca, okay, and that's the last one. Really really 881 00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:14,400 great series. Josh, thank you so much for joining us. This has 882 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:19,280 been really interesting and so fun talking. Yeah, all of these are right 883 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,599 up the alley of all of our listeners. Definitely some fodder. I'm MBus 884 00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:27,239 of your studio too. We gotta get some some video games, some arcade 885 00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,280 games. Well we don't, thank you, we don't play them. Yeah, 886 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:36,440 it's there for looks all right, all right, thanks everybody, gosh, 887 00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:37,840 thank you, Okay, all right, thank you guys.