Hello everyone. I thought that I would spend for this patron only video a
little bit more time talking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
or as my brother loves to put it, the Tree of the knowledge of
good and bad. You know, I made several statements recently. I did
a video where I discussed this question about the tree of the knowledge good and
bad. And I've made a few times a few statements about the Church Fathers
about from the Syrian say Irnace of Leon and how in their writings they talk
about how if Adam had waited and had been humble, God would have given
him the fruit, even though in the text and Genesis it says that they're
forbidding for me eating the fruit. And so, you know, for some
people, the Church Fathers saying that might be enough, and they might feel
like, you know, that's the Christian tradition, that's what the fathers believed.
But I understand why for some more biblically mind Christians they might think that
it's a cop out. They might think that or even atheists or even secular
types, they might think that it's a cop out to say that that I'm
not actually dealing with a difficulty in the text and in the Bible about this
weird situation where God doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat the tree of the
knowledge good and evil and says that they'll die. Interestingly, interestingly enough,
if you pay attention. Soon another discussion that I had with Alex O'Connor will
be out where we discussed this specifically. But I thought before even it comes
out, we could look at this question and what it will do. Also,
it will help you understand the way the Church fathers live in scripture.
This is Jonathan Pegel, Welcome to the symbolic world. And so this is
a difficult thing for us to understand too, is that the fathers lived in
scripture in a way that is very difficult for people today to understand. That
it wasn't just that they knew their scripture, but they lived in it.
It was the entire frame of their being. And therefore, sometimes when they
say something about scripture, they are so imbued in the text that they don't
feel like they have to refer to where it is that they're getting their thing
in the Bible, because it's so obvious and so imbued in the in their
frame of mind, you know, and it's not just scripture. It really
is Christian tradition. But that's what is imbuing their mind. But if you
look in scripture, you'll find the traces of what it is that they're saying.
And so this will also be a good way for us to kind of
go into the text and I'll show you how this idea that God was going
to give Adam and Eve the fruit of the nol's good and evil is actually
in the Bible. It's it's not just something the Church fathers came up with.
It is them continuing the deep, deep tradition, you know, of
coming out of Judaism into Christianity and completely exemplifying it in their writings at different
levels for different fathers as well. Now, the first thing to do is
nonetheless to remember the text of Saint Efim the Syrian, because Saint Ephraim is
amazing the Hymns on Paradise. I'm telling you, folks, if you haven't
read it yet, reading that Hymns on Paradise is a master works in symbolic
thinking. And you will read it and reread it and have to pay attention
to every line in it, you know, to kind of understand how powerfully
Saint Ephraim sets up the structure. Now, the way that Saint Ephraim helps
us understand the garden is that he relates it because he can see the relationship
and structure between the Garden of Eden and the Tabernacle and the Temple and the
mountain, all of these images of sacred spaces that are set up in scripture.
He sees them as basically being the same thing. So when he helps
you understand the Garden of Eden, he's doing it using the Bible, the
structure of what a holy place is, what a place where God walks,
where God reveals himself to man, what that place looks like. And therefore
it's helping us understand the garden in that way. And so the way that
he sets up the structure is that he says that the tree of Life is
the highest tree. It is in some ways the place of the revelation itself.
It's at the top of the mountain, and that the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil is placed in the middle of the garden. And
what he means by the middle of the garden is between the bottom of the
mountain and the top of the mountain. That's where the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil is and then the Tree of life is at the very
top of the mountain. And so the Tree of the Knowledge of good and
evil becomes a veil, becomes a like the Holy place looking into the Holy
of Holies, and it becomes in some ways that veil becomes for Adam and
Eve a kind of test of humility and of preparation in order to be able
to enter into the Holy of Holies, into the highest place. And so
I want to read a little part of the text. If you want to
look into it more. It's Him three is the hymn where all of this
is happening. The whole hymn is beautiful. You know, it's hard when
you try to quote parts of it, because if I could, I would
have quoted the whole thing. But I don't want to spend all my time
on it. So all right, here we go. And so in Him
three, section ten says God established the tree as judge, so that if
Adam should eat from it, it might show him that rank which he had
lost through his pride, and show him as well that low estate he had
acquired to his torment. Whereas if he should overcome and conquer it would robe
him in glory and reveal to him also the nature of shame, so that
he might acquire by his good health and understanding of sickness. A man,
indeed, who has acquired good health in himself and is aware in his mind
of what sickness is, has gained something beneficial, and he knows something profitable.
But a man who lies in sickness and knows in his mind what is
good health is vexed by his sickness and tormented in his mind. So then
he goes He goes in and gives an example of this a little later in
Him three, section fourteen, where he says, in the midst of Paradise,
God had planted the tree of Knowledge to separate off above and below sanctuary
from Holy of holies. Adam made bold to touch and was smitten like Uziah
the King became leprous. Right, and so it's clear what he's saying,
right, he's saying basically, it's like a veil. It's like a test.
If Adam had been humble and not prideful, then he would have received
the knowledge of good and evil from the point of view of good, the
knowledge of good and bad from the point of view of bad, and would
have known what shame is, would have known what difference is, would have
known what, you know, let's say, what a bad thing is,
but from the point of view of good. But because he took it in
pride, then he basically it revealed his lowly rank to him, and it
opened up that he talks about it at other places. It actually opened up
the Holy of holies to him, and he saw the glory of God.
That's what happened when he took the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
It's actually what the serpent said would happen. He took the fruit,
and then it opened up the glory of God. But the glory of God
was now to him a kind of judge. It was too bright on him
so much that he had to hide himself and then saw his shame, saw
his bad because he had take He had been presumptuous and tried to raise himself
up when he wouldn't ready to do that. All right, And so now,
if we want to understand that this idea that God wanted Adam and Eve
to receive the fruit, the place to look is not in Genesis. You
know, the Bible is an interesting text because it moves back and forth right,
it talks to it to itself, and it responds to itself. Now,
the place we need to look at in order to know that God wanted
Adam and Eve to eat the knowledge of the fruit, of the knowledge of
good and evil is actually in the story of Solomon. Now, in the
story of Solomon, there are two versions of the story. Now, the
one that is important to us at the outset is the one that's sold in
First Kings. Now, First Kings three one to fifteen. Let's look at
this. So at Gibeon, the Lord appeared to Solomon during the night,
during the night in a dream, and God said, ask for forever for
whatever you want me to give. You answered. You have shown great kindness
to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and
righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and
have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day. Now,
my Lord, you have made your servant king, and you've made your
servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little
child and do not know how to carry out my duties. Your servant is
here among the people. You have chosen, a great people, too numerous
to count or number. So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your
people and to distinguish between right and wrong, between good and evil, between
good and bad. That's what he's saying. For who is able to govern
this great people of yours. The Lord was pleased that Solomon asked for this,
So God said to him, since you have asked for this, and
not for long life, for wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the
death of your enemies, but for discernment in administrating justice, I will do
what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart,
so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever
be wherever. I will give you what you have not asked for, both
wealth and honor, so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among
kings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All right, and
so what's interesting in this text is that you know sant Erneus le leon.
That's how he presents Adam and Eve. He presents of his children. He
says, they are children in the garden, and they have to learn.
They have to be trained. They have to become more than what they are
in order to attain their purpose, which is to be united to God,
which is actually to become God through participation, to become what Christ was given,
what Christ, you know, was incarded into. That was the tailos
of man. That's what the tailos of what God wanted for Adam and Eve.
And so what's interesting here is that this is the way that Solomon presents
it. Solomon presents it and saying he humbles himself. He says, I
am but a child. So if Adam and Eve had recognized recognized that they
were but children, had recognized their humility, had not been prideful and arrogant
in trying to take for themselves that which was not, that for which they
were not ready, then the result would have been different. And we see
that the results is different because that's exactly what Solomon asked for. Solomon asks
God to give him what Adam and Eve took in the garden. And not
only does God give him that, he says, this is the greatest thing
you could have asked for. It is it is the greatest thing you could
have asked for, and therefore I will give it to you. And not
only will I give it to you, but because that is what you ask
for, then I will give you wealth and honor and everything else on top
of that. Okay, So then what is the difference, like, what
is the difference between receiving the knowledge of good and evil and being inappropriate or
receiving the knowledge of good and evil in an appropriate way? Now, of
course, the difficulty in this, and I want, I want always to
remind you that, you know, it's difficult when we talk about these things
because we kind of fall in theological language and we have a sense in which
it's like we think we understand it because I'll tell you this, and then
you'll say, oh, I get it. You know. It's like,
Okay, they took the fruit. They should have taken it, you know,
and it's the knowledge of good and evil. Then they have this thing
they know, you know, they're in goodness, and then now they know
shame instead of being in shame and doing goodness. And it's like it makes
kind of it makes sense, right, we think we know it, but
we have to be cautious to not think we understand it until we understand it.
And the best way to understand it is that the scripture is actually talking
about reality, and therefore we always have to be able to see the fractal
representation of what it is the scriptures talking about. Now, this, of
course is what's amazing about Matthew's book about his Language of Creation, which is
that he's able to help you see the structure so that you can apply it
it almost anything, and that it makes sense. Now, this is of
course a place where we specifically have to do that, because in some ways
it is the very origin of understanding the relationship between wisdom and knowledge, for
example, and understanding how it applies to our life in general. So one
of the keys to understand it is actually to look at the other text that
King, the other place in the Bible where King Solomon asks something from God.
Now, and we're not going to go through it again because I don't
want to spend so much time like reading the Bible, but you can look
at it for yourself. It is in Second Quarles, chapter one, and
in that version, what Solomon asks for is wisdom and knowledge. That's what
he asked for, he says, he asked for wisdom and knowledge. He
said, he doesn't just ask for knowledge of good and evil. Now,
what's interesting in the one that we did read is that God says, you
ask for knowledge of good and evil, and then I'll give you wisdom.
I'll give you a wise heart for discernment. And this is of course,
all of that is tricky because in the in Genesis as well, when Eve
sees the fruit, she says that it's good for wisdom and then for the
knowledge of good and evil, and all of that is true. Right,
It's like, this is the key like of kind of understanding in some ways,
what is the what is the what is being played with in terms of
understanding, And it is in some ways the difference between the knowledge of good
and evil and wisdom, Now wisdom, you know, we think of wisdom
off and as something like applied applied knowledge. But the best way to understand
wisdom is to understand the reason for knowledge, is to understand what is the
reason for the knowledge of good and evil? Like what is the purpose?
Right? And so it's not just that it's applied in the sense applied to
every day to everyday life, but that it is in some ways higher because
it is because knowledge of good and evil is something that it's like, you
could just know what good and bad. Is you don't understand why you don't
understand the purpose of good and bad. You don't understand the higher thing that
unites them together, you could say, and therefore it can lead you to
a whole lot of mess, which is what we see in the story of
Adam and Eve. But the idea that ultimately what you need is wisdom that
anchors the knowledge of good and evil. That's the good way, that's the
best way of understanding it. And so what I want to do with you
is I want to look at some examples, hopefully as close in everyday life
to kind of understand. But it is, you know what the problem is
of trying to gain the knowledge of good and evil without the proper alignment,
without the proper or like receiving it from heaven, receiving it from purpose.
Is maybe a good way of understanding it at a lower level is that unless
you receive the knowledge of good and evil from the higher reason, from the
purpose for which you're doing something, then it will lead you into a lot
of mess. Now, an example in the Bible of this is the grumbling
we call the grumbling in the desert, right, and so the Israelites are
in the desert. God is leading them to the Promised Land, but they
don't seem to totally know that. They don't they can't see beyond their struggle.
They can't see beyond their lower struggles. So they see they don't have
a food, they don't have enough water, they don't have enough of the
comfort stuff that they used to have back in their slave days in Egypt.
And because they first they can't remember, they can't see beyond their duality of
good and bad at the lower level. They can't see the purpose of why
it is that maybe they're struggling, they don't have as much as they did
in Egypt because they're aiming towards a higher reality. Then they have the knowledge
of good and evil, you know, quote unquote without wisdom. And then
they grumble because they can see good and bad. Oh yeah, because they're
hungry, because they're thirsty, because they're suffering, and they have all of
this problem. But because they are not able, they don't have the wisdom
to be able to see what it is that God is doing for them.
Then their situation becomes unbearable. It becomes a kind of complaining and a grumbling
in the desert that's one aspect of understanding the problem right of the knowledge of
good and evil that is taken without proper alignment, without the proper alignment towards
a higher reality, because then it creates this issue where it is you are
suffering, but you don't know why you're suffering, and therefore because you don't
know why you're suffering, or you don't or because you can see good and
bad at the lower the lower aspects, then you can't really align yourself properly.
Of you know, there are many examples of that. One of the
ones I've used before, but I think is just one of the best example
is in Karate Kid, you know, for those who don't know it.
In the Karate Kid, there's a sense mister Miyagi who teaches karate and he
tells this young boy, I'll teach you karate, right, But when the
young boy starts his training, mister Miyagi it just says, all right,
now go paint my fence. And then he goes and he paints the fence
all day. And then the next day he comes back and he says,
now, go wax my cars, and he's and he shows him how to
do it. Very particular way of waxing the cars, putting the wax on,
rubbing the wax off, and and and he I think there's three like
he tells him to do these chores that are and so Kid the karate kid
is stuck in a situation where he's doing a bunch of things and he can
see that it hurts and it's frustrating, but he doesn't know why he's doing
them, because he doesn't know why he's doing and he's stuck in the problem
of the knowledge of good and evil without being able to see beyond it,
without being able to see the wisdom, the application right, the orientation of
what it is that he's doing. And so now he's stuck in the problem
of of of And then mister Miyagi at some point reveals to him, right
the purpose of what he's doing. And what it does is it aligns him
right as soon as mister says, okay, now I'll show you how the
things you're doing, painting defense, you know, waxing the cars is going
is going to help you in the purpose that I've set for you. And
then it kind of realigns him properly, okay. And so this is of
course weighs in to kind of understand how the knowledge of good and evil and
the higher aspect of it, how they are connected together. Now, in
the in the story of Saint Ephraim, you know, he talks about Usiah
and he says, Usiah is a man in the story of King David who
the priests are carrying the Ark of the Covenant, and then they slip and
the Ark of the Covenant starts to fall. Then Usiah goes up, and
then he tries to stop the ark from falling, and he touches the ark
and he falls dead. And the idea in the text is that in some
ways he didn't he how can I say this like he did it impetuously because
that wasn't his role, and he wasn't a priest, he wasn't in the
right place to touch the holy thing, and therefore the Holy Thing for him
became a kind of harsh judgment and a painful judgment that brought him down.
And so there's another another way of seeing it. Another way into understanding the
relationship between the knowledge of good and evil and the higher truth or the higher
mystery that joins them together and makes them properly is in understanding something like the
Dunning Kruger effect. Right A lot of people are talking about the Dunning Kruger
effect right now, which is the tendency for people to overestimate their capacity,
all right, And so it's a different tack, and in some ways it
seems it might seem unrelated. But this is the more prideful element of the
grabbing of the knowledge of good and bad for yourself when you're not ready for
it, which is the idea of thinking you can do something when you're not
ready for it and kind of claiming that for yourself. And then as soon
as that happens, right, you become a slave of good and bad.
Good and bad rex you right, good and bad does not Can I say
this like sand Difference says, It's not like you are in a place of
good and you can see how things could go wrong or how things could be
off. No, no, no, Now, the good and bad just
totally destroys you. A little example of that that I've lived in my life,
and you know, it's just funny because it's my son, you know,
I love my son. He's an amazing boy. But when he was
young, we brought him one time to join a soccer team. I think
he was super young. He was like seven years old, I don't remember,
seven or eight years old, and he wanted to play soccer. He
was really excited about it, and he just wanted to play soccer, but
he never really played soccer for a soccer team. And then he went to
the soccer practice and the coach said, okay, you know, I think
it's like their goalie wasn't there. And so he asked the team, he
said, we need a goalie who wants to be the goalie? And my
son said, I'm going to be the goalie, and and the you know,
everybody was like, well have you been a goalie before. He's like,
I'm amazing. I'm really good. I'm the best. Like I'm really
good at beingalie. I mean, he was super young, and he thought
that he could do it, like he was sure that he could be the
goalie. And and so he was so confident that he convinced the coach right
to put him as goalie. And then what happened right then, the light
of the glory of soccer shone down on him in a way that he was
not ready for. That exposed his shame right exactly, like in the garden
of Eden. It exposed his shame instead of being a vehicle for his glory.
Right, if he had been ready for that, if he had been
ready to become goalie, if he had practiced, if he had done everything
needed, and then at that moment, right the coach had recognized him as
being ready to become a goalie and had given that to him from above,
and would have said, oh, I see you're good, like I've been
watching he practice, I've been seeing what you're doing. I'm going to take
you from below, right, like Christ says, sit in the back so
that people can ask you to come to the front. Right, he would
have said, now you come into my glory, come into the glory of
soccer, and I'll put you as goalie. And now you will and now
the knowledge of good and evil will be a garment of glory for you,
and you will become, you know, a shining soccer star. But instead
my son was like, I can do this, like I'm the you know,
I'm really good at playing soccer. I'm really good at being a goalie
when you had never done it before. So they put him in the goal
and he was humiliated, like humiliated in a way that was so sad to
watch, you know, he just bawled and cried, and you know,
you know, we had to comfort him obviously, you know, and and
it was so difficult for him to go through that. It was one of
those things that we've all been through that I remember his story. I probably
have a hundred stories like that from when I was young or in my life
when I when I've been cocky and thought that I could do something and play
myself in a situation like that. But it is just the one story that
I remember. And what it can help you understand is just to what extent
these stories right the story in the Bible, the story of the knowledge of
the of good and evil, a good and bad, and it's you know,
the idea of the right Taking that in the right way, or entering
into the knowledge of good and bad with the right attitude and humility and receiving
it from above will bring you into the Holy of holies. We'll bring you
into the glory of the thing that you're participating in, whether it is whether
it is ultimately your spiritual life and God, or whether it is playing soccer
or whatever or whatever you're engaged with. And so hopefully that was useful kind
of help you understand what it is that these texts are talking about. And
everyone, thank you for your support. As usual, I really appreciate everything
that you know, that you're willing to support what I'm doing, and that
you take it seriously. It's it's very I appreciate it every every day.
Give me great joy that I have the chance to do this, and so
thanks a lot. We have a lot coming very soon. We're gonna announce
all the new courses. We've got so much stuff coming up. We just
finished all the art for God's Dog, it's really great. We're finishing up
Jack Jack and the Bean Sock Jack and the Fallen Giants. So there's so
much stuff going up, and your support definitely makes it possible for me to
free myself up to be able to do all those things. So thanks everyone,
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