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Hello everyone. I thought that I
would spend for this patron only video a

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little bit more time talking about the
tree of knowledge of good and evil,

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or as my brother loves to put
it, the Tree of the knowledge of

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good and bad. You know,
I made several statements recently. I did

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a video where I discussed this question
about the tree of the knowledge good and

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bad. And I've made a few
times a few statements about the Church Fathers

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about from the Syrian say Irnace of
Leon and how in their writings they talk

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about how if Adam had waited and
had been humble, God would have given

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him the fruit, even though in
the text and Genesis it says that they're

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forbidding for me eating the fruit.
And so, you know, for some

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people, the Church Fathers saying that
might be enough, and they might feel

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like, you know, that's the
Christian tradition, that's what the fathers believed.

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But I understand why for some more
biblically mind Christians they might think that

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it's a cop out. They might
think that or even atheists or even secular

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types, they might think that it's
a cop out to say that that I'm

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not actually dealing with a difficulty in
the text and in the Bible about this

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weird situation where God doesn't want Adam
and Eve to eat the tree of the

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knowledge good and evil and says that
they'll die. Interestingly, interestingly enough,

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if you pay attention. Soon another
discussion that I had with Alex O'Connor will

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be out where we discussed this specifically. But I thought before even it comes

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out, we could look at this
question and what it will do. Also,

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it will help you understand the way
the Church fathers live in scripture.

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This is Jonathan Pegel, Welcome to
the symbolic world. And so this is

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a difficult thing for us to understand
too, is that the fathers lived in

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scripture in a way that is very
difficult for people today to understand. That

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it wasn't just that they knew their
scripture, but they lived in it.

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It was the entire frame of their
being. And therefore, sometimes when they

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say something about scripture, they are
so imbued in the text that they don't

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feel like they have to refer to
where it is that they're getting their thing

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in the Bible, because it's so
obvious and so imbued in the in their

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frame of mind, you know,
and it's not just scripture. It really

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is Christian tradition. But that's what
is imbuing their mind. But if you

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look in scripture, you'll find the
traces of what it is that they're saying.

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And so this will also be a
good way for us to kind of

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go into the text and I'll show
you how this idea that God was going

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to give Adam and Eve the fruit
of the nol's good and evil is actually

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in the Bible. It's it's not
just something the Church fathers came up with.

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It is them continuing the deep,
deep tradition, you know, of

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coming out of Judaism into Christianity and
completely exemplifying it in their writings at different

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levels for different fathers as well.
Now, the first thing to do is

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nonetheless to remember the text of Saint
Efim the Syrian, because Saint Ephraim is

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amazing the Hymns on Paradise. I'm
telling you, folks, if you haven't

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read it yet, reading that Hymns
on Paradise is a master works in symbolic

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thinking. And you will read it
and reread it and have to pay attention

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to every line in it, you
know, to kind of understand how powerfully

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Saint Ephraim sets up the structure.
Now, the way that Saint Ephraim helps

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us understand the garden is that he
relates it because he can see the relationship

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and structure between the Garden of Eden
and the Tabernacle and the Temple and the

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mountain, all of these images of
sacred spaces that are set up in scripture.

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He sees them as basically being the
same thing. So when he helps

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you understand the Garden of Eden,
he's doing it using the Bible, the

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structure of what a holy place is, what a place where God walks,

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where God reveals himself to man,
what that place looks like. And therefore

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it's helping us understand the garden in
that way. And so the way that

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he sets up the structure is that
he says that the tree of Life is

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the highest tree. It is in
some ways the place of the revelation itself.

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It's at the top of the mountain, and that the tree of the

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knowledge of good and evil is placed
in the middle of the garden. And

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what he means by the middle of
the garden is between the bottom of the

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mountain and the top of the mountain. That's where the tree of the knowledge

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of good and evil is and then
the Tree of life is at the very

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top of the mountain. And so
the Tree of the Knowledge of good and

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evil becomes a veil, becomes a
like the Holy place looking into the Holy

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of Holies, and it becomes in
some ways that veil becomes for Adam and

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Eve a kind of test of humility
and of preparation in order to be able

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to enter into the Holy of Holies, into the highest place. And so

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I want to read a little part
of the text. If you want to

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look into it more. It's Him
three is the hymn where all of this

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is happening. The whole hymn is
beautiful. You know, it's hard when

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you try to quote parts of it, because if I could, I would

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have quoted the whole thing. But
I don't want to spend all my time

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on it. So all right,
here we go. And so in Him

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three, section ten says God established
the tree as judge, so that if

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Adam should eat from it, it
might show him that rank which he had

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lost through his pride, and show
him as well that low estate he had

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acquired to his torment. Whereas if
he should overcome and conquer it would robe

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him in glory and reveal to him
also the nature of shame, so that

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he might acquire by his good health
and understanding of sickness. A man,

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indeed, who has acquired good health
in himself and is aware in his mind

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of what sickness is, has gained
something beneficial, and he knows something profitable.

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But a man who lies in sickness
and knows in his mind what is

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good health is vexed by his sickness
and tormented in his mind. So then

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he goes He goes in and gives
an example of this a little later in

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Him three, section fourteen, where
he says, in the midst of Paradise,

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God had planted the tree of Knowledge
to separate off above and below sanctuary

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from Holy of holies. Adam made
bold to touch and was smitten like Uziah

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the King became leprous. Right,
and so it's clear what he's saying,

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right, he's saying basically, it's
like a veil. It's like a test.

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If Adam had been humble and not
prideful, then he would have received

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the knowledge of good and evil from
the point of view of good, the

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knowledge of good and bad from the
point of view of bad, and would

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have known what shame is, would
have known what difference is, would have

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known what, you know, let's
say, what a bad thing is,

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but from the point of view of
good. But because he took it in

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pride, then he basically it revealed
his lowly rank to him, and it

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opened up that he talks about it
at other places. It actually opened up

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the Holy of holies to him,
and he saw the glory of God.

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That's what happened when he took the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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It's actually what the serpent said would
happen. He took the fruit,

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and then it opened up the glory
of God. But the glory of God

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was now to him a kind of
judge. It was too bright on him

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so much that he had to hide
himself and then saw his shame, saw

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his bad because he had take He
had been presumptuous and tried to raise himself

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up when he wouldn't ready to do
that. All right, And so now,

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if we want to understand that this
idea that God wanted Adam and Eve

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to receive the fruit, the place
to look is not in Genesis. You

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know, the Bible is an interesting
text because it moves back and forth right,

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it talks to it to itself,
and it responds to itself. Now,

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the place we need to look at
in order to know that God wanted

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Adam and Eve to eat the knowledge
of the fruit, of the knowledge of

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good and evil is actually in the
story of Solomon. Now, in the

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story of Solomon, there are two
versions of the story. Now, the

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one that is important to us at
the outset is the one that's sold in

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First Kings. Now, First Kings
three one to fifteen. Let's look at

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this. So at Gibeon, the
Lord appeared to Solomon during the night,

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during the night in a dream,
and God said, ask for forever for

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whatever you want me to give.
You answered. You have shown great kindness

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to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and

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righteous and upright in heart. You
have continued this great kindness to him and

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have given him a son to sit
on his throne this very day. Now,

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my Lord, you have made your
servant king, and you've made your

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servant king in place of my father
David. But I am only a little

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child and do not know how to
carry out my duties. Your servant is

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here among the people. You have
chosen, a great people, too numerous

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to count or number. So give
your servant a discerning heart to govern your

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people and to distinguish between right and
wrong, between good and evil, between

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good and bad. That's what he's
saying. For who is able to govern

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this great people of yours. The
Lord was pleased that Solomon asked for this,

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So God said to him, since
you have asked for this, and

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not for long life, for wealth
for yourself, nor have asked for the

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death of your enemies, but for
discernment in administrating justice, I will do

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what you have asked. I will
give you a wise and discerning heart,

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so that there will never have been
anyone like you, nor will there ever

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be wherever. I will give you
what you have not asked for, both

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wealth and honor, so that in
your lifetime you will have no equal among

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kings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All right, and

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so what's interesting in this text is
that you know sant Erneus le leon.

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That's how he presents Adam and Eve. He presents of his children. He

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says, they are children in the
garden, and they have to learn.

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They have to be trained. They
have to become more than what they are

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in order to attain their purpose,
which is to be united to God,

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which is actually to become God through
participation, to become what Christ was given,

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what Christ, you know, was
incarded into. That was the tailos

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of man. That's what the tailos
of what God wanted for Adam and Eve.

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And so what's interesting here is that
this is the way that Solomon presents

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it. Solomon presents it and saying
he humbles himself. He says, I

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am but a child. So if
Adam and Eve had recognized recognized that they

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were but children, had recognized their
humility, had not been prideful and arrogant

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in trying to take for themselves that
which was not, that for which they

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were not ready, then the result
would have been different. And we see

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that the results is different because that's
exactly what Solomon asked for. Solomon asks

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God to give him what Adam and
Eve took in the garden. And not

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only does God give him that,
he says, this is the greatest thing

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you could have asked for. It
is it is the greatest thing you could

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have asked for, and therefore I
will give it to you. And not

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only will I give it to you, but because that is what you ask

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for, then I will give you
wealth and honor and everything else on top

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of that. Okay, So then
what is the difference, like, what

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is the difference between receiving the knowledge
of good and evil and being inappropriate or

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receiving the knowledge of good and evil
in an appropriate way? Now, of

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course, the difficulty in this,
and I want, I want always to

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remind you that, you know,
it's difficult when we talk about these things

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because we kind of fall in theological
language and we have a sense in which

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it's like we think we understand it
because I'll tell you this, and then

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you'll say, oh, I get
it. You know. It's like,

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Okay, they took the fruit.
They should have taken it, you know,

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and it's the knowledge of good and
evil. Then they have this thing

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they know, you know, they're
in goodness, and then now they know

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shame instead of being in shame and
doing goodness. And it's like it makes

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kind of it makes sense, right, we think we know it, but

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we have to be cautious to not
think we understand it until we understand it.

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And the best way to understand it
is that the scripture is actually talking

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about reality, and therefore we always
have to be able to see the fractal

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representation of what it is the scriptures
talking about. Now, this, of

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course is what's amazing about Matthew's book
about his Language of Creation, which is

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that he's able to help you see
the structure so that you can apply it

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it almost anything, and that it
makes sense. Now, this is of

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course a place where we specifically have
to do that, because in some ways

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it is the very origin of understanding
the relationship between wisdom and knowledge, for

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example, and understanding how it applies
to our life in general. So one

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of the keys to understand it is
actually to look at the other text that

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King, the other place in the
Bible where King Solomon asks something from God.

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Now, and we're not going to
go through it again because I don't

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want to spend so much time like
reading the Bible, but you can look

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at it for yourself. It is
in Second Quarles, chapter one, and

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in that version, what Solomon asks
for is wisdom and knowledge. That's what

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he asked for, he says,
he asked for wisdom and knowledge. He

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said, he doesn't just ask for
knowledge of good and evil. Now,

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what's interesting in the one that we
did read is that God says, you

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ask for knowledge of good and evil, and then I'll give you wisdom.

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I'll give you a wise heart for
discernment. And this is of course,

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all of that is tricky because in
the in Genesis as well, when Eve

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sees the fruit, she says that
it's good for wisdom and then for the

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knowledge of good and evil, and
all of that is true. Right,

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It's like, this is the key
like of kind of understanding in some ways,

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what is the what is the what
is being played with in terms of

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understanding, And it is in some
ways the difference between the knowledge of good

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and evil and wisdom, Now wisdom, you know, we think of wisdom

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off and as something like applied applied
knowledge. But the best way to understand

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wisdom is to understand the reason for
knowledge, is to understand what is the

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reason for the knowledge of good and
evil? Like what is the purpose?

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Right? And so it's not just
that it's applied in the sense applied to

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every day to everyday life, but
that it is in some ways higher because

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it is because knowledge of good and
evil is something that it's like, you

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could just know what good and bad. Is you don't understand why you don't

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understand the purpose of good and bad. You don't understand the higher thing that

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unites them together, you could say, and therefore it can lead you to

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a whole lot of mess, which
is what we see in the story of

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Adam and Eve. But the idea
that ultimately what you need is wisdom that

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anchors the knowledge of good and evil. That's the good way, that's the

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best way of understanding it. And
so what I want to do with you

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is I want to look at some
examples, hopefully as close in everyday life

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to kind of understand. But it
is, you know what the problem is

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of trying to gain the knowledge of
good and evil without the proper alignment,

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without the proper or like receiving it
from heaven, receiving it from purpose.

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Is maybe a good way of understanding
it at a lower level is that unless

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you receive the knowledge of good and
evil from the higher reason, from the

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purpose for which you're doing something,
then it will lead you into a lot

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of mess. Now, an example
in the Bible of this is the grumbling

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we call the grumbling in the desert, right, and so the Israelites are

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in the desert. God is leading
them to the Promised Land, but they

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don't seem to totally know that.
They don't they can't see beyond their struggle.

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They can't see beyond their lower struggles. So they see they don't have

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a food, they don't have enough
water, they don't have enough of the

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comfort stuff that they used to have
back in their slave days in Egypt.

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And because they first they can't remember, they can't see beyond their duality of

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good and bad at the lower level. They can't see the purpose of why

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it is that maybe they're struggling,
they don't have as much as they did

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in Egypt because they're aiming towards a
higher reality. Then they have the knowledge

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of good and evil, you know, quote unquote without wisdom. And then

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they grumble because they can see good
and bad. Oh yeah, because they're

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hungry, because they're thirsty, because
they're suffering, and they have all of

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this problem. But because they are
not able, they don't have the wisdom

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to be able to see what it
is that God is doing for them.

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Then their situation becomes unbearable. It
becomes a kind of complaining and a grumbling

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in the desert that's one aspect of
understanding the problem right of the knowledge of

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good and evil that is taken without
proper alignment, without the proper alignment towards

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a higher reality, because then it
creates this issue where it is you are

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suffering, but you don't know why
you're suffering, and therefore because you don't

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know why you're suffering, or you
don't or because you can see good and

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bad at the lower the lower aspects, then you can't really align yourself properly.

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Of you know, there are many
examples of that. One of the

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ones I've used before, but I
think is just one of the best example

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is in Karate Kid, you know, for those who don't know it.

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In the Karate Kid, there's a
sense mister Miyagi who teaches karate and he

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tells this young boy, I'll teach
you karate, right, But when the

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young boy starts his training, mister
Miyagi it just says, all right,

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now go paint my fence. And
then he goes and he paints the fence

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all day. And then the next
day he comes back and he says,

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now, go wax my cars,
and he's and he shows him how to

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do it. Very particular way of
waxing the cars, putting the wax on,

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rubbing the wax off, and and
and he I think there's three like

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he tells him to do these chores
that are and so Kid the karate kid

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is stuck in a situation where he's
doing a bunch of things and he can

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see that it hurts and it's frustrating, but he doesn't know why he's doing

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them, because he doesn't know why
he's doing and he's stuck in the problem

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of the knowledge of good and evil
without being able to see beyond it,

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without being able to see the wisdom, the application right, the orientation of

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what it is that he's doing.
And so now he's stuck in the problem

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of of of And then mister Miyagi
at some point reveals to him, right

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the purpose of what he's doing.
And what it does is it aligns him

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right as soon as mister says,
okay, now I'll show you how the

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things you're doing, painting defense,
you know, waxing the cars is going

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is going to help you in the
purpose that I've set for you. And

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then it kind of realigns him properly, okay. And so this is of

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course weighs in to kind of understand
how the knowledge of good and evil and

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the higher aspect of it, how
they are connected together. Now, in

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the in the story of Saint Ephraim, you know, he talks about Usiah

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and he says, Usiah is a
man in the story of King David who

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the priests are carrying the Ark of
the Covenant, and then they slip and

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the Ark of the Covenant starts to
fall. Then Usiah goes up, and

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then he tries to stop the ark
from falling, and he touches the ark

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and he falls dead. And the
idea in the text is that in some

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ways he didn't he how can I
say this like he did it impetuously because

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that wasn't his role, and he
wasn't a priest, he wasn't in the

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right place to touch the holy thing, and therefore the Holy Thing for him

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became a kind of harsh judgment and
a painful judgment that brought him down.

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And so there's another another way of
seeing it. Another way into understanding the

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relationship between the knowledge of good and
evil and the higher truth or the higher

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mystery that joins them together and makes
them properly is in understanding something like the

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Dunning Kruger effect. Right A lot
of people are talking about the Dunning Kruger

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effect right now, which is the
tendency for people to overestimate their capacity,

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all right, And so it's a
different tack, and in some ways it

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seems it might seem unrelated. But
this is the more prideful element of the

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grabbing of the knowledge of good and
bad for yourself when you're not ready for

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it, which is the idea of
thinking you can do something when you're not

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ready for it and kind of claiming
that for yourself. And then as soon

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as that happens, right, you
become a slave of good and bad.

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Good and bad rex you right,
good and bad does not Can I say

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this like sand Difference says, It's
not like you are in a place of

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good and you can see how things
could go wrong or how things could be

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off. No, no, no, Now, the good and bad just

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totally destroys you. A little example
of that that I've lived in my life,

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and you know, it's just funny
because it's my son, you know,

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I love my son. He's an
amazing boy. But when he was

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young, we brought him one time
to join a soccer team. I think

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he was super young. He was
like seven years old, I don't remember,

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seven or eight years old, and
he wanted to play soccer. He

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was really excited about it, and
he just wanted to play soccer, but

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he never really played soccer for a
soccer team. And then he went to

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00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:42,519
the soccer practice and the coach said, okay, you know, I think

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it's like their goalie wasn't there.
And so he asked the team, he

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said, we need a goalie who
wants to be the goalie? And my

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son said, I'm going to be
the goalie, and and the you know,

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everybody was like, well have you
been a goalie before. He's like,

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I'm amazing. I'm really good.
I'm the best. Like I'm really

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good at beingalie. I mean,
he was super young, and he thought

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that he could do it, like
he was sure that he could be the

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goalie. And and so he was
so confident that he convinced the coach right

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to put him as goalie. And
then what happened right then, the light

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of the glory of soccer shone down
on him in a way that he was

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not ready for. That exposed his
shame right exactly, like in the garden

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of Eden. It exposed his shame
instead of being a vehicle for his glory.

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Right, if he had been ready
for that, if he had been

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ready to become goalie, if he
had practiced, if he had done everything

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needed, and then at that moment, right the coach had recognized him as

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being ready to become a goalie and
had given that to him from above,

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and would have said, oh,
I see you're good, like I've been

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00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,480
watching he practice, I've been seeing
what you're doing. I'm going to take

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you from below, right, like
Christ says, sit in the back so

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that people can ask you to come
to the front. Right, he would

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00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,119
have said, now you come into
my glory, come into the glory of

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00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,720
soccer, and I'll put you as
goalie. And now you will and now

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the knowledge of good and evil will
be a garment of glory for you,

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00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,640
and you will become, you know, a shining soccer star. But instead

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00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,039
my son was like, I can
do this, like I'm the you know,

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I'm really good at playing soccer.
I'm really good at being a goalie

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00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:25,359
when you had never done it before. So they put him in the goal

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00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:30,599
and he was humiliated, like humiliated
in a way that was so sad to

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watch, you know, he just
bawled and cried, and you know,

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00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,920
you know, we had to comfort
him obviously, you know, and and

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00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,640
it was so difficult for him to
go through that. It was one of

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those things that we've all been through
that I remember his story. I probably

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00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,640
have a hundred stories like that from
when I was young or in my life

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00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,920
when I when I've been cocky and
thought that I could do something and play

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00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:52,960
myself in a situation like that.
But it is just the one story that

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00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,799
I remember. And what it can
help you understand is just to what extent

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00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:02,720
these stories right the story in the
Bible, the story of the knowledge of

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00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:07,880
the of good and evil, a
good and bad, and it's you know,

340
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,599
the idea of the right Taking that
in the right way, or entering

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00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,799
into the knowledge of good and bad
with the right attitude and humility and receiving

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00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:22,240
it from above will bring you into
the Holy of holies. We'll bring you

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into the glory of the thing that
you're participating in, whether it is whether

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it is ultimately your spiritual life and
God, or whether it is playing soccer

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00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,480
or whatever or whatever you're engaged with. And so hopefully that was useful kind

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00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,799
of help you understand what it is
that these texts are talking about. And

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00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:45,319
everyone, thank you for your support. As usual, I really appreciate everything

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00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,839
that you know, that you're willing
to support what I'm doing, and that

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00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,319
you take it seriously. It's it's
very I appreciate it every every day.

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00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,359
Give me great joy that I have
the chance to do this, and so

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00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:02,400
thanks a lot. We have a
lot coming very soon. We're gonna announce

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00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:06,200
all the new courses. We've got
so much stuff coming up. We just

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00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,839
finished all the art for God's Dog, it's really great. We're finishing up

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00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,880
Jack Jack and the Bean Sock Jack
and the Fallen Giants. So there's so

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00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,200
much stuff going up, and your
support definitely makes it possible for me to

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00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,279
free myself up to be able to
do all those things. So thanks everyone,

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00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,680
and talk to you soon. Bye
bye. If you enjoyed these videos

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00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,960
and podcasts, please go to the
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359
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,839
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