WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:34.079 Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two of our series about the 2 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.640 Walker family murders. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up and what 3 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.479 we talked about in our previous episode. Well, the Walker family murders took 4 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:45.200 place in the small town of Osprey, Florida, in December of nineteen fifty 5 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.119 nine, just a few days before Christmas. The two parents were named Cliff 6 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.359 and Christine Walker, and they had a three year old son named Jimmy and 7 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:56.960 his twenty three month old daughter named Debbie. And what happened is that on 8 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.159 one day they were visiting like a friend of theirs named the Mclouds, who 9 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.079 worked as a rancher on a different property, and Christine drove back to the 10 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:08.200 house first in the family car, while Cliff left the residence in his jeep 11 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.640 with the two children because he had to pick up some feed. And it 12 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:17.760 seems like they arrived within twenty to thirty minutes of each other. But when 13 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.959 the mcclouds went to the residence the following day, they found out that they 14 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:26.439 had all been murdered. They'd been shot several times and Christine had been sexually 15 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:29.959 assaulted, and a few items had been stolen from the home, but it 16 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:33.200 did not appear that robbery was the primary motive, and that this was a 17 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:38.760 personal crime, possibly from someone who had a thing for Christine. They looked 18 00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:42.640 over a number of different suspects. One of them was a sixty five year 19 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:46.280 old man named Wilburt took Her, who had been a letch towards Christine in 20 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.280 the past, had inappropriately touched her and tried to kiss her while visiting her 21 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.719 home on a couple of prior occasions. There was a cousin named of Cliffs 22 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:59.200 named Curtis McCall, who was rumored to have had an affair once with Christine, 23 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:01.799 but this can never be conclusively proven. But in the past decade, 24 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:07.560 the most promising suspects have been Perry Smith and Richard Hickcock, who were responsible 25 00:02:07.639 --> 00:02:12.800 for the Clutter family murders, which took place in Kansas in November of nineteen 26 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.960 fifty nine and where the subject of the true crime book in Cold Blood. 27 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:21.840 Smith and Hiccock were executed in nineteen sixty five, and thus far they've been 28 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.159 unable to find any conclusive evidence to tie them to the murders, though it's 29 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:30.000 believed that the two men were in Florida while they were on the run as 30 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:35.240 wanted fugitives on the date that the murders took place. They have made attempts 31 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.120 to exhume the bodies of both men for DNA testing, but the results have 32 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:45.520 only been inconclusive. But it turns out that they've recently discovered that Christine's DNA 33 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:50.560 has actually mixed up with the Killers DNA, which was found in seamen in 34 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:54.280 Christine's underwear, So it seems likely that cross contamination has occurred, and they 35 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:59.680 were doing new testing to see if they can separate Christine's DNA with the Killers 36 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:04.680 DNA so they can do some proper testing because a lot of suspects who have 37 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:09.639 been ruled out in other years, it's possible that this is completely meaningless because 38 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.960 the DNA was contaminated. So it's been sixty five years and they're still actively 39 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:20.800 investigating it, but thus far they've been unable to conclusively link the crime to 40 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:24.840 any of the known suspects. So I mentioned in our last episode that I 41 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:29.879 originally covered this case on the Trail went cold in December of twenty nineteen, 42 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:35.039 but in recent years, cold case investigators have come to the disappointing conclusion that 43 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:39.680 a DNA sample taken from seamen found on Christine Walker's underwear wound up being contaminated 44 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:46.080 and contained traces of Christine's own DNA. So while DNA testing has been used 45 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.560 to rule out a number of suspects over the years, those results may now 46 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.680 be meaningless. And that includes the testing which has been performed on the remains 47 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:57.879 of Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who are the most high profile suspects in 48 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:00.639 this case. As you might recall, only a week and a half after 49 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.639 the Walker family murders took place, Smith and Hickock were captured for committing the 50 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:10.439 Clutter family murders and eventually executed for the crime. So if you believe they 51 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:15.360 were the guilty parties in this case, then justice ultimately prevailed. I first 52 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.240 became familiar with the Walker murders in twenty twelve when a number of articles came 53 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.360 out about the attempts to link this crime to Smith and Hickock. I mean, 54 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.639 even though In Cold Blood is one of the most famous true crime books 55 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:31.759 ever written, Truman Capoti only spents a few paragraphs talking about the Walker murders. 56 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.040 So even if you've read the book, it's easy to forget this case 57 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:40.160 was even mentioned. Of course, whenever a cold case has some sort of 58 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.160 link to another famous crime, it's very tempting to try and link them together. 59 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.920 But this connection is pretty compelling. If Smith and Hickcock were not involved, 60 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.439 then it would be one hell of a coincidence if the murderers of a 61 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:57.000 family from Kansas just happened to be in the same county in Florida on the 62 00:04:57.079 --> 00:05:02.000 exact same date that an entirely different family was murdered under similar circumstances. I 63 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.680 definitely think there are interesting arguments both for and against the theory that Smith and 64 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:12.920 Hiccock were the perpetrators, but I'll talk more about that later on. The 65 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.879 idea that the DNA is mixed really throws a rent in this whole case, 66 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.720 because it really does call into question all of the people who had been interviewed 67 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:26.879 and ruled out earlier in the investigation. Remember, five hundred and eighty seven 68 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.319 people upwards towards six hundred people were suspects in this case at one point, 69 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.879 and they were working off information that wasn't accurate. You had a mixed DNA 70 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.480 sample, you had a fingerprint, that really ended up being a palm print. 71 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:44.000 There were a lot of other issues, like was Christine assaulted or not, 72 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.800 and so I believe a lot of those challenges put this case into a 73 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:53.519 perspective where it's very difficult to get to the truth. And obviously they wouldn't 74 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.439 have been thinking about DNA testing back in nineteen fifty nine and when they finally 75 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.399 started using that as an option. I know that a couple of the suspects 76 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.959 were tested and ruled out, but we have other suspects who are who have 77 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:10.079 been dead a long time or their current whereabouts are unknown, and we don't 78 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.560 even know if they're still alive. So not everyone has been tested, so 79 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.600 there are just so many unanswered questions. Well, Smith and Hincock are compelling 80 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:23.839 suspects. They were strangers just passing through the area, but some details of 81 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.480 the crime suggest that the perpetrator knew the Walker family personally and may have had 82 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:33.560 an infatuation with Christine. One particularly odd detail is that Jimmy's cowboy hat was 83 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:39.160 apparently put on Debbie's head before the killer shot her, almost as if he 84 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.639 couldn't bear to look directly at her face. While he did this, The 85 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.120 two murdered children were only three years and twenty three months old, respectively, 86 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.800 so they were not going to be reliable witnesses if they were left alive. 87 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:56.279 But if they knew the shooter and could potentially recognize him, he may have 88 00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.920 felt the need to kill them to avoid being identified. Believe that when the 89 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:04.079 killer showed up at the Walker residence that day, they may not have originally 90 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:09.839 planned on killing anyone. He may have intended to make advances towards Christine. 91 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.040 I can believe that when the killer showed up at the Walker residence that day, 92 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.399 they may not have originally planned on killing anyone. He may have intended 93 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.600 to make advances towards Christine, but when she resisted him and fought him off, 94 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:28.040 things turned violent. Interestingly enough, while the murder weapon was never found, 95 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.040 at least two friends of the Walker family seemed to recall at least two 96 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:36.959 friends of the Walker family seemed to recall that Christine kept a twenty two caliber 97 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:43.120 pistol on a shelf inside the closet in Jimmy's bedroom. If this is true, 98 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.800 then maybe it was Christine who grabbed the gun in an attempt to defend 99 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.959 herself before the killer took it away from her. This would explain why the 100 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:55.120 first shot, which grays Christine's head, took place in the bedroom. But 101 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.600 if the killer did not even bring their own gun, then this supports the 102 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:03.439 idea that this crime was not premeditated and there doesn't seem to be a lot 103 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.920 of planning that did go into it other than just showing up. Because you 104 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:13.360 do have the clothes of Christine and her husband. The bloody clothes are found 105 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.199 in a shed about a mile away from the house, so the killer was 106 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.399 using things in the home to clean up. There was a quilt used in 107 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.040 the house to clean up Christine's body, and so it does seem like he's 108 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.639 just reaching and grabbing things in the home to use, including that hat that 109 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.800 he puts over the baby's face before shooting her and then drowning her. So 110 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.480 it is very possible that this person was there for Christine and ended up having 111 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:43.919 to you know, felt cornered and felt trapped, became enraged something that triggered 112 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:50.080 him to go from trying to make an advance to then murdering an entire family. 113 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.759 Yeah, the evidence showed that the killer made an attempt to clean up 114 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:58.000 the blood, so perhaps He was originally intending to take Christine's body away from 115 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:03.000 the scene in order to dispose of it, but since Cliff and the children 116 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.320 arrived home, he wound up killing them too. If Smith and Hickock were 117 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.559 the perpetrators, it seems very odd that they would attempt to clean up the 118 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.320 murder scene, given that they were just passing through the area. However, 119 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.759 if the killer was a local resident, they may have felt more compelled to 120 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:22.720 cover their tracks. We know that Christine returned home about twenty to thirty minutes 121 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.919 before Cliff and the two children, who likely walked in during or after the 122 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.960 attack on her. It seemed significant that the family car was not parked outside 123 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.399 the house in its usual spot, which implies that someone else had already arrived 124 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:41.240 and was waiting there when Christine returned home. The fact that the groceries were 125 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.240 put away implies that Christine likely invited the perpetrator into the house and was going 126 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.360 about a regular household business before she was attacked. Quite a bit of gossip 127 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.879 about Christine circulated throughout the community following the murders, as she had caught the 128 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.320 eye of a number of local men, and there were rumors she may have 129 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.519 been conducted a secret affair, though that was never conclusively proven. But it's 130 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:09.080 very plausible that the killer's infatuation with Christine may have been the motive for this 131 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:15.519 crime. I think they had to know this family. Again, Remember they're 132 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.720 out on this again. They're out on this several thousands of acres of property 133 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:22.759 and they live two and a half miles down a dirt road. I just 134 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:28.159 feel like between Christine's outfit going missing that was hidden in her wooden trunk, 135 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:35.480 the baby's face being covered, Christine being raped, someone pulling into the house, 136 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.200 and Christine not being scared enough to just shoot them on site or anything 137 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.320 like that. She's putting groceries away most likely with this person talking to her. 138 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.399 It seems like it's someone very personal to the family, both in Christine's 139 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.960 behavior and in the behavior of the killer themselves. They knew the area. 140 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:54.480 It seems like they had an emotional connection to the individuals that they killed, 141 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.639 and that they knew that those children were going to be able to identify them 142 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:03.120 because they were so intimately close to them. Okay, can I set up 143 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.240 like an alternate scenario with Smith and Hickcock, for sure, say they meet 144 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.320 the family, the Walker family, and they're out somewhere, say at a 145 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:15.080 diner, at a convenience store, at the used car lot, and they 146 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:20.080 set up a time to go back to the Walker residents meet them and you 147 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.519 know, trade cars. They get the address, they find out where this 148 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:28.000 is. They get directions either from the Walkers themselves or from somebody else locally. 149 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.840 This could explain why, if they did indeed do this, they'd been 150 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.919 seen with the Walkers, so that may explain why they wanted to have the 151 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:39.120 cleaning up of the blood of the crime scene. Okay, so they go 152 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:45.080 in and they meet Christine, and Christine allows them in. You know, 153 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.960 they put away the groceries, and at that point Hiccock would take Christine and 154 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.120 sexually assault her. And maybe this time Smith can't stop him. Because they've 155 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.960 been on the run for a month, they're a lot more desperate than they 156 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.559 were prior, so I'm sure that he could be acting like a feral animal 157 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.720 at this point. The I mean, already, what they'd done to the 158 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.879 Clutters was absolutely abhorrent. It was cold blooded, it was it was disgusting, 159 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.000 and it insults everything that is human in all of us to think that 160 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:18.000 somebody is capable of just so flippantly annihilating an entire family like they were nothing. 161 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.639 But if Christine is being sexually assaulted, it's hard for me to believe 162 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.159 that somebody like took her would be allowed in while she puts away her groceries. 163 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:31.039 But these two, if they were putting it on that they wanted to 164 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.639 trade vehicles, she might see them as non threatening, and then she might 165 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:35.799 say, oh, yeah, like, my husband will be home in this 166 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:41.279 amount of time casually before she's attacked. So they might have an idea of 167 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.559 how long they have and maybe they thought that they could just attack her and 168 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.840 leave. But then Cliff came back. And if you got two people, 169 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:54.960 if Hickock is sexually assaulting Christine, you could have Smith by the door waiting 170 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.720 for Cliff and the children to arrive. And I could see that maybe Hiccock 171 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.320 has killed the others and he told Smith, well, you have to kill 172 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.440 Debbie. He already seems like the more sympathetic of the two. I could 173 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.240 see a scenario where it didn't matter if you knew a twenty three month old 174 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.120 young girl, you may still have a problem with killing her, and so 175 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.639 putting the cowboy hat over her face could have made it easier for him, 176 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.320 given that he seems to be the one with slightly more compassion, given that 177 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.879 we know that he wouldn't allow Hickock to rape the sixteen year old girl at 178 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.919 the scene with the Clutter family murders, So maybe it's just a scenario where 179 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.639 he just isn't okay with killing a small child. So that's also true. 180 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.399 Yeah, all that's very possible. I mean, they killed two teenagers in 181 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.480 the Clutter family, but they were fifteen and sixteen, and that's still a 182 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.799 far cry from killing a three year old and a twenty three month old. 183 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.600 So I could think that even hardened killers like them might have an issue with 184 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.080 it, which is why they went to the trouble of covering Debbie's face with 185 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:01.200 the cowboy hat. About the drum major erette costume. They could have just 186 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.320 been going through chess and looking for things that could have been of value and 187 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.279 maybe just say Hiccock, for example, could have spotted that and maybe he 188 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.120 wanted to take it as some sort of trophy. That is true, like 189 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.519 it's not going to have a lot of value for selling it, but if 190 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.360 he wanted a memento of the crime, I could see him holding on to 191 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.360 it, though we have to mention that it was never found, so if 192 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:26.639 he took it as a memento, he did not have it on him when 193 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.200 he was arrested. So now we're going to talk about potential suspects. One 194 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:37.679 of the biggest criticisms about the original investigation is it some suspects, including Perry 195 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.799 Smith and Richard Hiccock, were initially ruled out strictly because they passed lie detector 196 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.000 tests. Of course, nowadays we all know the polygraphs are notoriously unreliable, 197 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.840 but law enforcement put a lot more stock into their result sixty five years ago. 198 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.120 Now, some of the people who passed polygraphs, including Don McLoud and 199 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:03.360 Cliff's cousin Albert Walker, voluntarily submitted to DNA testing decades later and were excluded. 200 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.799 Though since the DNA evidence was contaminated, I guess we could no longer 201 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:13.440 say with one hundred percent certainty that they didn't do it. But there are 202 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.000 other potential suspects who have never had their DNA taken, either because they are 203 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.200 dead or their current whereabouts are unknown. It took several decades for DNA samples 204 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.919 to be taken from the descendants of Wilbert took her, who was the Walker's 205 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.320 nearest neighbor, and passed away a few years after the crime took place. 206 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.240 On the surface, he does seem like a compelling suspect, since he seemed 207 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.000 obsessed with Christine and even showed up at the walker residence on more than one 208 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:45.559 occasion and tried to kiss Christine when her husband wasn't there. It's interesting that 209 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.120 some of the Walker's clothing, which the killer likely used to wipe blood off 210 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.559 themselves, was found in a shed about a mile from the residence. This 211 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.519 suggests that they may have been familiar with the area, and since took her 212 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.279 lived nearby, he may have known the shed was an ideal place to dispose 213 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.799 of evidence. He's by far my favorite suspect at this point. I feel 214 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:11.320 like he wanted Christine, and Christine was saying no, and the husband was 215 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.200 aggressive and already had threatened him and pulled him aside and said, don't you 216 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.440 dare come to our house. So if he had tried to make another attempt 217 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.559 and knew that the husband was coming home, it's possible that he was armed 218 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.559 and ready, like he's waiting to go ahead and execute the husband when he 219 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.279 comes back in after he had already taken what he wanted. The only thing 220 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.799 that would be surprising about that is that Tooker doesn't seem like the kind of 221 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.120 person that would make her comfortable enough to be putting the groceries up and things 222 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.600 like that nature where she seems so comfortable with the person who had come into 223 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:45.279 her home. Yeah, now I'm going to talk about the reasons why Tucker 224 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.360 doesn't seem like a promising suspect, even though there are some things that point 225 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.120 towards him, because in a way, the fact that Tooker had a prior 226 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.519 history of lecturous advances towards Christine almost makes them a more unlikely suspect. Like 227 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.600 you just said, since Christine had enough time to enter the house and put 228 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:06.359 away the groceries, she probably invited the killer inside and was comfortable enough having 229 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.240 him around while she did this. But the last time took Her was there, 230 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:14.039 he tried to kiss Christine, and this made Cliff so angry that he 231 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.920 warned took Her not to come around the house again. So I have by 232 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:22.160 doubts that Christine would have willingly invited him inside. I know Tooker's whereabouts could 233 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:26.359 not be accounted for between four and five pm that afternoon, before he went 234 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.759 out to dinner with a friend. But I'm not sure the lack of alibi 235 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.839 is all that troubling when you consider that Tooker's whereabouts after five o'clock are pretty 236 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:40.759 well accounted for. Remember, the Walker residence was located in a pretty remote 237 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.519 area, and Cliff and the children are believed to have gotten home at around 238 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.839 four thirty or so. Sarasota was located about ten miles away, So what 239 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.880 Tooker really have had enough time to murder the family, clean himself off, 240 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.279 meet up with his friend, and then spend the rest of the night having 241 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:02.519 dinner and playing violin at a concert as if nothing happened. As tempting as 242 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.039 a maybe to think that Tooker was the perpetrator, I just don't think he 243 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:11.079 quite fits. However, I will add the disclaimer that recent DNA testing could 244 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.920 not rule out took Her as a contributor, though since this testing was performed 245 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:21.160 with contaminated evidence, I'm not sure if these results have much significance that's true 246 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:25.000 to me. It either says that you can discard it completely or that there's 247 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.480 a question mark because he could have been the contributor. So it's impossible to 248 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.319 know that right now. I do agree it would be quite odd to be 249 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.599 able to go and perform and to be around friends with no consequence and no 250 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.000 affect that shows that something happened, But it really depends on his mental health 251 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.319 and his level of psychopathy and narcissism and things like that. Where if he 252 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.759 was entitled to Christine and he wanted her, and he got what he wanted 253 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.640 and eliminated all the consequences for that, I mean, there are killers that 254 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.559 we know commit an act and go straight home to their families and have dinner 255 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.759 and tuck their kids into bed. So I think it's possible without knowing his 256 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.599 background and personality, though it is nearly impossible to be able to say is 257 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.880 it him or not? I just think the timeline is way too tight. 258 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.279 Yeah, you think he couldn't have gotten cleaned up and at the places in 259 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.720 time to kill that many people within such a short period of time and then 260 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.799 just like smoothly slide into dinner and this violin thing. It just seems like 261 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.599 a really short window of time for one man to have done that, and 262 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.920 also an elderly man as well, like he was sixty five, and just 263 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.680 like he would not have been traveling quickly from the crime scene, because if 264 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.799 we're to believe that that happened, he would have been midway through sexually assaulting 265 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:48.359 Christine. And then Cliff and the kids come home, so he then has 266 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.680 to deal with all that. And it seems like Cliff was surprised when he 267 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.160 came in the door. So is this sixty five year old man going to 268 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.400 be jumping through the home running to the door, surprising him, and then 269 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:06.279 he has to kill He basically shoots Cliff, shoots Jimmy, and then takes 270 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.759 Debbie to the bathtub and then you know, drowns or puts the cowboy hat 271 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.680 over her face. And then at some point he'd tried to clean up blood. 272 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.880 We don't know when, if this was before or after he'd killed Cliff 273 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.680 and Jimmy and little Debbie, or if it was prior to and he was 274 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.960 going to dispose of the body, We cannot be sure, but I just 275 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.759 think that that and then he goes and he stops by a shed and then 276 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:34.519 disposes of clothing evidence there. You'd think he'd then have to go home get 277 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.119 cleaned up and then go meet his friend. I just personally for me, 278 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:44.680 that timeline is way too tight. A potential suspect who died before he could 279 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.960 be DNA tested was Stanley Mouk, the Walker's meter reader. There really isn't 280 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.799 anything to link mouth to this crime other than the fact that he seemed to 281 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:57.640 have major psychological problems and talked about having urges to kill his own family. 282 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.519 And he also had to be the meter reader at a residence in Sarasota where 283 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.640 another brutal, unsolved murder took place four months earlier. On our last episode, 284 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.440 we talked about the death of Chandler Stephans aka the Sarasota Mummy murder, 285 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:18.759 and this case is incredibly baffling in its own right. As you might recall, 286 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.200 the killer hogtied Stephans, wrapped a heece of tape around his head and 287 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:27.160 proceeded to torture him for hours before cutting his throat. The night before he 288 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.680 was killed, there was an incident where Stephans woke up in the middle of 289 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.599 the night to discover that his sofa had been set on fire. And I'm 290 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:40.519 sure this was done by the same person who later murdered him. What's truly 291 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:45.079 bizarre is that the house belonged to Stephan's stepmother and he had only been living 292 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.480 there for forty eight hours before he was murdered. Prior to this, Stephans 293 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.640 had not lived in Sarasota for years, and only a small handful of people 294 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.720 even knew he would be staying at that house, and they were all eliminated 295 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.920 as suspects. There have never been any any solid suspects in this crime, 296 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.359 and the only thing which links Stanley Mouth to it is that he happened to 297 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.599 be the house's meter reader. But unless Mauk just happened to be reading the 298 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.200 meter during the forty eight hour period Stephen's was staying at the house, I'm 299 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.559 not sure how he would have even known someone was there. I don't know 300 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.920 how well acquainted Malk was with the Walker family, but theoretically, if he 301 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.160 went to their house to read their meter and was there when Christina arrived home, 302 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:32.160 she may have been comfortable enough with Mout to invite him inside. But 303 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.119 the circumstances of the Walker murders and Stephan's death are a lot different, as 304 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.160 Stephan's murder was a prolonged, premeditated crime, which seemed to be planned at 305 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.279 least one day in advance and took place in the middle of the night, 306 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.160 whereas the Walker murderers were quick, sloppy and took place during the daytime. 307 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.400 I'm inclined to think that crimes are not connected at all, but there's really 308 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:59.279 no evidence to prove or disprove Mauk's involvement. I guess the only way to 309 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.480 know for sure would be if Mouk's remains were ever zoomed for DNA testing. 310 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.799 One of the things about him for me is that he is openly talking about 311 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.440 having these urges to kill his family, and he has these clear mental health 312 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:18.119 issues. Would someone like that be able to keep it under control and not 313 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.759 mention, not say something about hurting the family, or if he was responsible 314 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:25.799 for the other mummy murder, being able to keep all that quiet. I 315 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.000 mean, he's saying things that he knows are problematic and troublesome, and it's 316 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.480 almost like a cry for help. Would he not also then say I have 317 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:38.599 hurt somebody or I fear that I could hurt other people. Many people have 318 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.720 not I mean, this is not like a you know, everyday occurrence, 319 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:45.319 but there's a lot of people who struggle with feelings of violence and anger and 320 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:52.920 rage and un unconceivable ideas that they don't normally think they would have. But 321 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.240 that's part of mental health issues. He talks about it. Nothing's been said 322 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.359 about these murders. I just think at some point he would slip up trying 323 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:03.240 to get help with his mental health. Yeah, that's a good point. 324 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.559 If he's willing to openly say that he's willing to murder his own wife and 325 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.599 children, that I think if he did a crime like that for real, 326 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:11.640 he would never be able to keep it under wraps. And he did not 327 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.960 die until nineteen ninety seven, so if he was guilty, he would have 328 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.519 had to have stayed silent about it for at least thirty eight years. And 329 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.880 that just does not seem to fit his personality. He's already struggling and already 330 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.079 saying, I have these thoughts, like clearly it was something he wanted help 331 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.200 with, and to think he could have that kind of intense mental health distress 332 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.960 and then be able to kill and keep it under wraps and not go completely 333 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.440 out of his mind, I just I don't think that would be possible, 334 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.480 giving his fragile mental state, already. I think you're right. It seems 335 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.000 like a bit of a red herring just because there's two murders associated with him, 336 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.960 because he was the meter reader. But so many things would have had 337 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.839 to fall into place for him to been there on those days, and especially 338 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.640 the Mummy murder, Stephan's murder. I think his wife would have noticed if 339 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.519 he was away in the middle of the night and he was gone for hours, 340 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.640 because he was tortured for hours while those slits for his nose were cut 341 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:14.039 out, and finally his throat was slit, I would think his absence would 342 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.519 have been noted, because you're not reading meters in the middle of the night, 343 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.640 Yeah, exactly. The other interesting potential suspect was Curtis McCall, who 344 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.680 was rumored to be conducting an affair with Christine, but it sounds like there 345 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.799 was no evidence to back this claim up besides gossip and hearsay. I'm not 346 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:36.359 sure investigators even heard about these rumors until Curtis's cousin came forward and told them 347 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:40.759 years later. There's nothing to really implicate Curtis aside from the fact that he 348 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:44.440 had a violent temper, seemed very nervous and on edge. Following the murders, 349 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.759 and once owned a twenty two caliber gun, which he claimed to have 350 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.680 sold to someone he could not remember. It's interesting how when he took a 351 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:56.839 polygraph, the only question where Curtis showed signs of deception was have you withheld 352 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.359 any information about the Walker murders? But again, this is an early nineteen 353 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.359 sixties polygraph test we're talking about, so I'm not sure how much stock you 354 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.240 can put into that. It could mean that Curtis was telling the truth when 355 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.240 he said he had no involvement in the murders but still withheld details about his 356 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:18.000 relationship with Christine. The theory that the entire family was killed by a man 357 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.279 Christine had an affair with is a compelling one, but since it involves hating 358 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.319 the reputation of a married murder victim, you always hate to push these theories 359 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:32.160 forward without proof. Christine allegedly been asking some questions to her friends about how 360 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.559 to terminate a pregnancy, which I'm sure led to gossip about her being pregnant. 361 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:40.920 But let's also not forget that she suffered through two miscarriages that year. 362 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.599 So an alternate explanation is that Cliff wanted her to get pregnant again, and 363 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.839 Christine just could not bear the prospect of potentially suffering through a third miscarriage. 364 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.559 Whatever the case, we know that Christine was not pregnant at the time she 365 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:59.240 was murdered, so this whole angle might not mean anything. When a series 366 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.480 of articles were published about this case in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in December of 367 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.880 two thousand and five, they said that Curtis McCall's current whereabouts ron known, 368 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.279 so he's never been subject to DNA testing and I'm not even sure he's still 369 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:17.240 alive today. On our last episode, we discussed an anonymous phone call made 370 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:21.680 in nineteen ninety four by a woman claiming to be a bartender in Stroudsburg, 371 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:26.880 Pennsylvania, who said that an elderly customer of hers made an emotional confession to 372 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:30.640 the Walker murders. If her story is true, some people have wondered if 373 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.920 that man might have been Curtis McCall. But once again, even though Curtis 374 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:40.359 might be a compelling suspect, there really isn't any strong evidence to prove or 375 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:45.680 disprove his involvement. I think if you give any credence to the elderly late 376 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.599 or to the lady who says she had an elderly customer confide in her and 377 00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.599 that she wanted to tell the police, but she'd have to call them back. 378 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.119 I really feel it's someone's conscience. Weane on them saying, Okay, 379 00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:02.319 I know information about this case and I want to tell it, but either 380 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.079 I'm afraid to be harmed by the person at the root of it, or 381 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.839 I love them so much I don't necessarily want them to go to prison or 382 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.119 to death row for this murder or for these murders. And so to me, 383 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:19.279 her trepidation sounds like she knows much more if her facts are actually true 384 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.160 than what she wanted to share, and the fact that she hung up, 385 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:27.599 it's just it's bizarre. I think she either knew the killer and it wasn't 386 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:32.440 some random person in her bar, or she's fabricating it. But again, 387 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.400 like you said on the last episode, Florida to Pennsylvania, that's a big 388 00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.680 jump to know this crime back in nineteen ninety four. Well, if by 389 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.319 chance, the woman is telling the truth, and I think that would rule 390 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.880 out the possibility of Smith and Hiccock being the killers, because they had been 391 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.240 executed and dead for three decades at that point, so there really wouldn't be 392 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:56.279 any reason for her to withhold information which incriminated them. So now we finally 393 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.920 have to address the likelihood of Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock being the perpetrators, 394 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.799 and there is a pretty compelling case for that. On the surface. For 395 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.799 decades, it seems like no one really looked at them that seriously as suspects, 396 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.319 largely due to the fact that In Cold Blood gave off the incorrect impression 397 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:17.839 that the two men had alibis. As iconic as the book might be, 398 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.079 it contained a lot of factual errors, particularly when it came to Smith and 399 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.519 Hickock's movements while they were on the run. Plus another reason they were initially 400 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.400 discounted as suspects was because their fingerprints did not match the prints found on the 401 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.359 bathtub faucet at the Walker residence. But as the years have gone by, 402 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:38.720 it seems more likely that it was actually a palm print. We have numerous 403 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:44.000 eyewitness sightings placing the two men in the area of Florida around the time of 404 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.720 the murders, and while eyewitnesses can be mistaken, some of these sightings are 405 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.319 pretty credible. I think the most interesting sighting is from the gas station owner 406 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:57.119 outside Arcadia, who said that Smith and Hickock stopped by and asked for directions 407 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:02.400 on December twentieth. Not only did he identify the two men, but he 408 00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:07.240 accurately described the nineteen fifty six Chevrolet bel Air they were driving and even got 409 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.839 two of the digits on their license plate correct. And he also said that 410 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:18.160 the man matching Hickock's description had a badly scratched up face. It was obvious 411 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.880 that Christine Walker put up a major fight against the person who attacked her, 412 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.920 and since both of her high heeled shoes had blood on them, she likely 413 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.119 used them as a weapon to defend herself. If Hiccock was a perpetrator, 414 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.440 then this would explain the scratches on his face. This one is really confusing 415 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:38.640 for me. I get that there are links to these men, and it 416 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:44.640 is really disturbing to have that gas station owner talk about Smith and Hitcock stopping 417 00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:48.480 by and asking for directions. The car is a unique aspect as well, 418 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.440 because the family was looking at that kind of model in particular that day, 419 00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:57.000 looking at used cars. But man, I guess they would have had to 420 00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:03.920 get the address from the family, because if not, they're just so far 421 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:10.400 out, they're so remote, they're so isolated. No one's driving by in 422 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:14.680 desperation saying, hey, let's drive on to this thousands of acres of property 423 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:18.640 and find someone to rob, and let's pick the farmhouse that's a workhands house 424 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.000 and not the main home that might have more money and more valuable goods. 425 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.319 It really would have had to be like you guys said earlier, where they 426 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.880 had met in public that day and made arrangements later in the afternoon. But 427 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.920 I don't know as a husband, especially back in the sixties, I don't 428 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:38.960 think if I knew I was meeting someone for a car at four and I 429 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.200 was over at another friend's house and it's three point fifty, my wife, 430 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:48.400 sure as heck is not going home by herself and maybe meeting up with these 431 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:49.920 two guys. I'm going to make sure I'm with her. I'm going to 432 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:53.039 make sure that, because there's these strange men coming to our house that seemed 433 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.319 very pleasant earlier in the day, that I'm the first one at the home 434 00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.880 as the husband, right, that we all go into the house together, 435 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.039 or that I go alone while she hangs out at the friend's house. So 436 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.839 I just think it would have been better precautions in place if the husband thought 437 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:12.200 that they were driving home to meet two men. I don't think Christine would 438 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:15.000 have gone home first by herself to be solo. Do you think people in 439 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:21.400 their twenties are always so forward thinking, though, especially not back in nineteen 440 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:23.759 fifty nine either, Like this was like a small town that wasn't known for 441 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.119 violent crimes. So if by chance they met these two young men earlier that 442 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:30.799 day, they probably thought, Hey, they seem like friendly guys. They 443 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:35.359 seem like harmless and maybe we're just not thinking about the possibility that if I 444 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:37.880 let my wife drive home first and be alone with them, that it could 445 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:43.200 lead to murder and sexual assault. I just think at the age of twenty 446 00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.279 five, I wasn't really thinking that like these things could potentially happen to me. 447 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.839 And if I had a partner at the time, I could see that, 448 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.039 like you just set up that scenario, Robin, had we met them 449 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:58.480 in public, I couldn't necessarily think that that person would think, oh, 450 00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:01.880 there's a situation where you know, I'm going to put my partner in danger. 451 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:06.759 I just think that what Cliff was twenty five or twenty six, twenty 452 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.559 five, twenty five. I just think he's so young that he hasn't been 453 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.960 you know, the world hasn't shown him necessarily all of the awful things out 454 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:21.160 there. I mean, he did have to deal with the creepy neighbor coming 455 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.799 and trying to kiss Christine, but he might not have seen Smith and Hickock 456 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.440 as that type of danger, because they may have come off as like, 457 00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.720 Hey, these are two guys that seem really nice, and they're going to 458 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:32.000 come and do this trade, and this is going to help us out. 459 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:36.559 And if Christine meets them ahead of me, it's not a big deal because 460 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:40.200 I'm following right behind her. Well, let's do a recap of this theory. 461 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.480 One of the biggest arguments against Smith and Haycock is that the evidence suggested 462 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.839 that Christin knewer killer and invited him into the house while she performed tasks like 463 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:52.920 putting her groceries away. But would she really have done this for two strangers, 464 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.960 especially when her husband wasn't home yet. Well. In twenty sixteen, 465 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.000 true crime writer J. T. Hunt published a book about the Walker murderers 466 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:07.559 titled In Colder Blood and presented a fairly plausible theory about how Smith and Hiccock 467 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:10.760 might have wound up at the house. We mentioned our last episode that Cliff 468 00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.559 visited some used car lots because he was looking to trade in the family car 469 00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:17.800 for a newer model, and one of the vehicles that caught his eye was 470 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.639 in nineteen fifty six Chevrolet, the same model which Smith and Hiccock were driving 471 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:28.079 at that time. If the two men somehow crossed paths with the Walkers that 472 00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.239 day and showed Cliff their Chevy bel Air, they may have arranged a meeting 473 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.559 to trade vehicles at the Walker residence. When Cliff and the children were at 474 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:40.199 the McLeod residence later that afternoon, God and Lucy McLeod asked if they wanted 475 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:45.079 to stay for a little while longer, but Cliff specifically said that they needed 476 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.239 to get going because it was almost four o'clock. So could this mean that 477 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.880 Cliff had a scheduled meet up with Smith and Hiccock. Given that the Walker's 478 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:57.079 residence was in a very remote location at the end of a dirt road, 479 00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.880 it seems doubtful that the duel could have stumbled upon placed by accident. But 480 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:05.840 if they had a pre arranged meeting and Christina met both men earlier that day. 481 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.480 They may have been already parked at the house when Christine arrived home, 482 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:13.199 and she was comfortable en up with them to invite them inside to wait for 483 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:19.559 Cliff. That is very possible, especially if she noticed the car and the 484 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.559 make and model. Okay, we met them earlier. We're actually looking at 485 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.280 this car. We're going to make a trade with them. And so she 486 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.280 said, well, come on in, My husband will be back, like 487 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.719 you guys said earlier, in thirty minutes, which gives them this kind of 488 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:32.880 window of saying, we have thirty minutes to do whatever we want with Christine. 489 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.760 There is a possibility that that's what happened, for sure, because if 490 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:44.960 it was committed today, I think that the hypervigilance that you described, Ashley, 491 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.800 that like we would all feel now, is something that most couples would 492 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.159 have in place. You wouldn't just send your wife ahead to meet with two 493 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:57.800 strange men. But it isn't the true crime riddled world that we have today 494 00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:01.039 with the Internet and all of this access to information. It was sixty five 495 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:05.880 years ago. Yeah, And even though the Clutter family murders was a pretty 496 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:10.079 big crime, and Smith and Hiccock were wanted fugitives. It's not like today 497 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:15.400 where you can circulate information immediately and their faces would be plastered everywhere. So 498 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.239 I think it's likely that Christine had no idea that the Clutter family murders had 499 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.800 even occurred, and never would have suspected that these were wanted murderers. Now, 500 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:30.280 there were two separate unidentified hairs found at the murder scene which were inconsistent 501 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.119 with anyone from the family, which would make sense if there were two killers. 502 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.719 One of the hairs was dark and theoretically could have matched Smith, and 503 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:43.559 the blonde hair found inside Christine's death could have belonged to Hiccock. When DNA 504 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.840 testing was performed on the Seman evidence many decades later, Smith was excluded, 505 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.719 but the results on Hiccock were inconclusive. Of course, we have no idea 506 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:58.400 if those DNA results are valid, but that's still a very important detail. 507 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:02.239 Even though Smith had had no qualms about murdering an entire family, he had 508 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:07.760 a major revulsion about rape and was so adamant about stopping Hiccock from raping Nancy 509 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:13.599 Clutter that the two men nearly broke out into a fight. But perhaps this 510 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.360 time around. Smith couldn't stop Hiccock from raping Christine, and while we cannot 511 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.840 conclusively prove this, the semen and the blonde hair could belong to Hiccock. 512 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:28.159 Another detail which may point to two killers is that, even though most of 513 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.440 the shots were fired from a twenty two caliber weapon, a thirty two caliber 514 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:37.639 slug was found near Christine's body. I find that detail strange as it's always 515 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.960 been theorized that the reason the killer drowned Debbie in the bathtub was because they 516 00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.480 ran out of bullets in their twenty two. But if they also had a 517 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.159 thirty two caliber weapon, why not use that to shoot Debbie and finish the 518 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.079 job. Two separate guns might suggest two killers, but then again, it's 519 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:58.360 possible that the twenty two actually belonged to Christine and she grabbed it out of 520 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.800 the bedroom closet. The one thing which could lean away from Smith and Hincock 521 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:07.239 being the perpetrators is the fact that the crime seemed more personal in nature. 522 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:10.480 When the duo murdered the Clutter family, the motive was robbery, and they 523 00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:15.360 were under the mistaken impression that the Clutters had a safe of money inside their 524 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.320 house, and only elected to kill the family because they didn't want to leave 525 00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:23.400 them alive as witnesses. The Walker family were far from wealthy, so they 526 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:29.400 seemed like pretty unlikely targets for robbery. Only a handful of items were stolen 527 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.360 from the Walker home, but even if the family didn't have much, it's 528 00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:37.280 surprising that Smith and Hiccock wouldn't have taken whatever they could get their hands on, 529 00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.039 as they were living day to day while on the run as wanted fugitives, 530 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.159 and you did anything they could find to survive. I think back then 531 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.920 too, you would be able to hawk a bunch of things so much easier 532 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.440 right than you can today because there's not any kind of tracking and are able 533 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.199 to report it or anything like that. And so if they did rob this 534 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:01.920 farmhouse of a ranch hand in hopes of getting ahead in their criminal pursuit, 535 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.039 I just I feel like they would have gone to a place that had more 536 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.440 valuable things. And then, like you said, let's say they did pick 537 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:15.400 the Walkers, why not completely clear that house out and take several things. 538 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.320 Surely there was some jewelry, Surely there was some other stuff in the house 539 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.719 that could have been sold or given away and made trades with so it doesn't 540 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:27.519 seem like they walked away with much other than a pack of cigarettes a big 541 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.320 partner of cigarettes. Now, it seems like there's been some confusion about the 542 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:37.320 disappearance of the Walker's marriage certificate. For years, everyone believed that the certificate 543 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.559 was stolen from the wall in the living room, which would lend credence to 544 00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:45.360 the idea that the killer was someone who was infatuated by Christine and became angry 545 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:50.079 about her marrying someone else. But in the aforementioned book in Colder Blood, 546 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:55.599 it's mentioned that Cliff's niece contacted investigators in twenty twelve because the marriage certificate suddenly 547 00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:00.880 turned up and some items given to her by a relative. I really wish 548 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:05.719 I could find other sources which provide additional clarification about this, because I'd really 549 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.960 like to know how this relative got the certificate to begin with. I'm not 550 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.400 trying to say they were personally involved in the murders, but perhaps they wound 551 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.519 up perceiving the certificate on a previous occasion and everyone mistakenly assumed that the killer 552 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:22.079 stole it. Regardless, it seems like the one item which has still never 553 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:28.199 been accounted for is Christine's missing drum majorrette uniform from her high school days, 554 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:32.480 which is undoubtedly the weirdest detail of this case. If Christine was murdered by 555 00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.239 a stranger, then perhaps I can see them taking the uniform as some sort 556 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.840 of souvenir or memento of their crime. But this uniform was kept in a 557 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.079 plastic bag inside a chest, so unless they happened to come across it during 558 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.599 a random search of the house, how would a stranger have even known it 559 00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:53.039 was there. I really don't see why Smith and Hickhock would elect to steal 560 00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:57.760 a random item like that either. If they wanted to keep the uniform as 561 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.679 a memento of some sort, what actually happened into it. I know that 562 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.800 when they were arrested they had a pocket knife on them, which matched the 563 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.599 ones stolen from Cliff, but there was no mention of the drum major Ette's 564 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:12.199 uniform, and that does not sound like a typical item you would pawn off 565 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.239 if you need money. I guess. The other possibility is that, like 566 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.880 the marriage certificate, the uniform somehow went missing from the home before the crime 567 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.559 took place and it is never turned up. But otherwise I think it's the 568 00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:30.599 strongest piece of evidence to indicate that this crime was motivated by the killer's obsession 569 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:35.039 with Christine. Without the missing uniform, I would be much more inclined to 570 00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:38.519 believe that Smith and Hickock were the perpetrators. But part of me still believes 571 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:43.480 that this was some sort of crime of passion in which Christine was the primary 572 00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:49.960 target and her husband and children were collateral damage. I think that from this 573 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.039 get go, when you described the case to me, it was very clear 574 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:58.360 that there was something about Christine that this killer wanted, that there had been 575 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.960 a desire to be her part. There had been a feeling that he had 576 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:06.239 been let on, and he was resentful of the fact that Christine had a 577 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.760 husband and children. In my mind, he takes time to sexually abuse and 578 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:15.119 assault Christine, and then he quickly kills the husband to eliminate the threat. 579 00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:21.039 And then there's a struggle in some ways with the daughter to cover her face 580 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:25.760 and shoot her, but with the son, almost this kind of reaction of 581 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:30.159 fear where the baby's crawling after being shot towards his dad and so he has 582 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:35.760 to quickly shoot him again. So I feel like there is something more personal. 583 00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:37.599 I went for Christine, I had to eliminate the threat of her husband, 584 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.440 and then I had to stop the two kids from recognizing me. There 585 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:46.360 just seems something so directly personal about it. At the end of his original 586 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:52.519 Trail and Cold episode, Robin found it very frustrating that there wasn't enough usable 587 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:57.599 DNA on Richard Hikok's remains to conclusively determine if he was the source of the 588 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:02.320 seamen founding Christine's underwear. But the frustration level has only increased now that we 589 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:07.920 know there was a cross contamination and Christine's own DNA was likely mixed with the 590 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.199 DNA of the killer, which essentially meant that the evidence has gone right back 591 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:15.280 to square one. Well, I personally do not believe that John McLeod and 592 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.920 Albert Walker were strong suspects. The fact that they were supposedly ruled out by 593 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:25.480 DNA testing two decades ago no longer means anything. Now we cannot even discount 594 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:30.119 the possibility that Perry Smith could have been the source of the seamen. So 595 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:35.159 I'm hoping that the recent exhumation of Cliff In Christine's bodies will lead to the 596 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:40.000 recovery of some usable DNA evidence which could potentially be linked to a suspect, 597 00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:45.880 even if they are already deceased. Personally, I'm on the fence over the 598 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.920 idea of Smith and Hickock being the perpetrators. I do think the fact that 599 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.840 two home invasion murders of two separate families took place in entirely different states within 600 00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:58.360 one month of each other, and the same two people just happened to be 601 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.880 in the area when the second crime took place, it's just too much of 602 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.079 a coincidence to ignore. But I still have the nagging feeling that it might 603 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:09.480 only be a coincidence and the real perpetrator was someone much closer to the family 604 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:15.639 who lived in the area. Even though all the previous DNA testing was unreliable, 605 00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:19.599 it was worth noting that wilburd took her was the one suspect who could 606 00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:23.599 not be conclusively discounted as the contributor, so perhaps more advanced testing will answer 607 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:28.920 the question about his involvement once and for all. In the meantime, if 608 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.519 you happen to have any information about the Walker family murders, please contact the 609 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:39.480 appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley any final thoughts on this case. I feel like 610 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:44.920 it's one that's personal in nature. I think that that baby looked at that 611 00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.760 killer in the face and they knew each other, and he had to cover 612 00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:52.320 her face to shoot her. I think the child crawling towards his dad, 613 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:54.519 there was this immediate gut reaction of like, oh my gosh, I have 614 00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:58.840 to just end his life because I've already injured him, and the husband was 615 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.599 a threat, so that was a quick elimination. But Christine to me, 616 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:07.360 seemed like this target of an obsession of some sort and an entitlement to who 617 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:12.719 she was and to her body, so I'm leaning more towards that direction. 618 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:19.079 It is tragic to think about the fact that any human being is capable not 619 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:23.679 of just killing an individual, but is able to kill an individual and sexually 620 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:29.039 assault her, kill her husband, and then look at two children who are 621 00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.920 barely able to communicate with adults and say, there's such a threat to me 622 00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.039 right now, I need to eliminate them as well. And to be able 623 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:43.239 to go on for decades and decades and not have any kind of moral conscious 624 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:47.360 to say I did that blows my mind. It was a three year old 625 00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:52.559 at a nearly two year old that were also killed at that scene, and 626 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:58.400 so the whole thing carries such a heavy horrific weight to it that this is 627 00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:01.719 one of the more difficult cases we've discussed. It's an old case, but 628 00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:06.440 it's one that seems so relevant, and you have a whole family who is 629 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:12.960 annihilated and no one knows why. I'm praying that scientific technology allows them to 630 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:19.239 be able to break apart Christine's DNA from the killer's DNA and through genetic genealogy. 631 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.400 This is one of those old cases where they can just say we know 632 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.400 what happened, right, and to be able to give a period and a 633 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:30.800 punctuation mark to the end of this story. Most likely these people are deceased. 634 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:35.960 Most likely nothing's going to come of a justice point of view, but 635 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:38.400 to know who it was would be something that would really change kind of the 636 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:44.079 history of this case. This is one of the hardest cases that I think 637 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:49.360 we've covered, and I think it's just because you get this really visceral reaction 638 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:54.840 from three year old Jimmy being shot in the face several times while crawling towards 639 00:46:54.840 --> 00:47:00.960 his father, and little Debbie her fate being her end being in this bathtub 640 00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:06.800 and being shot in the face with this cowboy hat covering it. It's just 641 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:10.920 so sad and so tragic because they didn't have to die, they were too 642 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.119 young to be able to testify and all. While I agree with everything that 643 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:20.280 you said, Ash, you make a really compelling case for it being personal. 644 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.000 I'm fifty to fifty. I could go either way. I think there's 645 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:28.280 a lot of evidence that two people were at this murder scene from the way 646 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:32.599 that the perpetrator felt comfortable, and that isn't to say that both things can't 647 00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:37.079 be true. There could have been two people there and they're just suspects that 648 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.960 were close that haven't been identified. I mean, there could be people who 649 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:45.239 weren't even on the radar were assuming that the investigation was so thorough and that 650 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:49.760 they have all of these people on this list and they've just had to go 651 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.159 through them and check d Ena against it. There's a possibility it could have 652 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:55.559 been people that were close to the Walkers, close to the family, that 653 00:47:55.880 --> 00:48:00.639 just weren't on that list, and there could have been multiple people that did 654 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:02.519 it. Just those two hairs that were there. The fact that the person 655 00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:08.159 felt comfortable sexually assaulting Christine when they likely knew that Cliff was going to be 656 00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:13.480 coming home with those children just leads me to believe that there's a strong likelihood 657 00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:17.679 that there are two people involved. Whether it's Smith and Hiccock, I really 658 00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:22.320 have no idea. The only thing that my gut tells me for sure is 659 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.519 that there's multiple people involved, and I think Ashley make a strong case for 660 00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:30.440 it being somebody close to the family. But I just I'm scratching my head 661 00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:35.400 on this one. Yeah, me too. This is one where I fully 662 00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:38.639 admit to changing my mind all the time. I mean, all family annihilation 663 00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:44.119 murders are horrific, but this one is particularly bad because of the young age 664 00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:46.679 of the two children and the brutal fashion that they were murdered, and also 665 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:52.320 the fact that it has remained unslved for nearly sixty five years. And when 666 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.400 I first learned about this case, I was fully convinced that Smith and Hiccock 667 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:59.760 were the perpetrators, because they had done a crime like this just one month, 668 00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.119 or they could be placed in the area at that time, and like 669 00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:06.800 Jules said, there was a lot pointing to this crime being committed by two 670 00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.320 people. I do think there is a good chance that they were the killers, 671 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.880 but I still harken back to the fact that there's just seemed to be 672 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:17.400 something a lot more personal about this crime, that whoever did this was someone 673 00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:22.079 who knew Christine personally and had an infatuation with her and felt that they had 674 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:27.119 to kill Cliff and the children because they felt they could be recognized because they 675 00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:30.800 happened to live in the area. But we also were talking about the idea 676 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:35.039 of there being two perpetrators is that we've gone over a number of different suspects 677 00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:38.239 like Curtis McCall and Wilbur Tucker, and if they were responsible, who would 678 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:43.519 their accomplices have been. We don't have any other scenarios involving two suspects, 679 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:47.000 which is why I often leaned back to Smith and Hickock. But there really 680 00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:51.480 just isn't a lot about this crime which makes sense, And the only way 681 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.519 it's going to be solved is with DNA testing, which really hopes that they 682 00:49:55.519 --> 00:50:00.400 can separate the killer's DNA from Christine's DNA, because that gives them more options. 683 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:06.119 They could submit it into a ancestry website for the purposes of genetic genealogy 684 00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:08.920 and maybe it will wind up get it being a familial match to someone who 685 00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:13.199 has never even popped up on the radar as a suspect to begin with. 686 00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:17.039 So yeah, I think there's one hundred percent chance whoever did this is now 687 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:22.519 dead and it will never be arrested or prosecuted for this crime. But if 688 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:28.159 genetic genealogy is successful, then they could identify a suspect. And I am 689 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:30.639 glad that, in spite of the age of the case, that investigators are 690 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:35.800 still working on this and it'll be great if we can give an update announcing 691 00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:39.679 that they have identified the perpetrator sometime in the future. Robin, do you 692 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:44.159 want to tell us a little bit about the trailment Cold Patreon. Yes, 693 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:46.559 the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer 694 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:52.800 these standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out 695 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:57.400 stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon 696 00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:01.519 if you join our five dollars tier to your two We also offer monthly bonus 697 00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:06.960 episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on the Trail Went 698 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.880 Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon, and if you join our 699 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:15.119 highest tier tier free the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer 700 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:20.559 is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can 701 00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:24.800 download an audio file and then boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon 702 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:30.360 Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, 703 00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:34.920 where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. 704 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.239 And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was 705 00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:43.519 the episode featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track 706 00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:46.400 in which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure 707 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:50.360 to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a little bit 708 00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:53.400 about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of The 709 00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:58.519 Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili mini's, which are always 710 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:00.920 over an hour so they're not very but they're just too short to turn into 711 00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:05.559 a series, and we're really enjoying doing those. So we hope you'll check 712 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.280 out those patreons will link them in the show notes. So I want to 713 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:12.199 thank you all for listening, and any chance you have to share us on 714 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.000 social media with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. 715 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:19.960 You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. You can reach 716 00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:22.440 us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to 717 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:28.039 bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by 718 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.719 Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy