Hello, listeners, and welcome back once again to another thrilling episode of the
Mike Bennett Podcast, where, this time as happens very rarely, I have
a guest for you. Oh yes, Now, I don't interview people very
often because I don't really know many people, and those people I do know
probably aren't of interest to you. I mean, I could interview my neighbor.
He's a lovely and charming man with lots of fascinating tales, but woody
tales of woodworking and boat building be of interest to my audio book slash podcast
fiction loving listeners. No, I don't think so. It's kind of off
brand. I mean, this isn't a woodworking and boat building podcast, is
it. No? So, what are my audio book slash podcast fiction loving
listeners interested in? It's a puzzler. Hm. Oh no, wait,
of course it isn't. It's audiobook slash podcast fiction, or at least good
audiobook slash podcast fiction, and especially audiobook slash podcast fiction, which is genre
wise in a similar vein to my own audiobook slash podcast fiction. And so
that brings me to my guest today. Mike Bartlett is an Australian author and
podcaster who like Me started out in the mid two thousands posting chapters of his
works to the now defunct but much missed podcast audiobook library pudiobooks dot com.
When Mike and I first met internet wise, I was podcasting my first novel,
One among the Sleepless, and Mike was podcasting his novel How to Disappear
Completely. And if you were listening to One among the Sleepless back then,
you would have heard a promo for How to Disappear Completely on that podcast and
quite possibly as a result, checked it out. Ah, promos, you
don't get them anymore, do you. I mean you. Back in the
days of padiobooks, all we authors used to swap promos and cross promote each
other's work. It was a great way to build an audience, you know,
and for you listeners to find new things to listen to. But you
don't get it anymore. But you just don't get it anymore. It was
kind of a little art form in itself. But the good news is you
will hear one in the course of this show, because I've got Mike's latest
podcast promo. And as I say, it's an art form and it's a
very good promo. But anyway, where was I? Yes, however,
back to what I was saying. Despite releasing a few more of his works
as podcasts, like so many podcasters from the Padio Books Stable, Mike later
disappeared completely himself, at least from the world of podcasting, leaving his audience
yearning for more but tragically not getting it. That is until now. For
now, Mike Bartlett has returned. He's back with a new version of How
to Disappear, completely revised text, brand new audio recording the whole thing,
and he's currently podcasting it chapter by chapter for your auditory delight. So I
caught up with Mike last Tuesday. It was evening where he was and morning
where I was, and we had the following conversation. I hope you enjoy
it as much as I did dig this. Okay, ladies and gentlemen,
So here we are. I have with me the author and podcaster mister Mike
Bartlett Hallow, Mike, how are you? I'm very well, Mike,
how are you? I'm very well? Indeed, thank you very much.
Now, listeners may or may not be acquainted with your work. I know
many of them are, but I'm sure many of them are not. So
we we've known each other as correspondents for quite some time since, since we
were both on podio books a very long time ago. I see a long
time ago. I know I joined in two thousand and six. When did
you? When did you join? I think it was about the same.
It was probably probably the end of two thousand and five, two thousand and
six, right, right, So you you were there a bit earlier than
I was. Ah, well, I feel I should get some kind of
acknowledgment. Absolutely, there you are little audiobooks met metal. There is the
acknowledgment. Yeah, and og aadiobooks, for the benefit of those who don't
know what we're talking about, was a kind of an online audio book,
a free audiobook warehouse, wasn't it. It was? It was really roundbreaking
at the time. It was just audiobooks hadn't taken off, you know.
Audiobooks were still cassettes that you got out from the library when you were in
your seventies or eighties. The idea that they would be they would be hot
property, just yeah, it was totally alien. And this idea that you
could write something and instantly find an audience just by reading a version of it
and turning that into an FB three that was that was a white hot technology.
It was very exciting. It was yeah, and you'd upload an episode
every week and there'd be an audience out there waiting to listen to it.
It was it was really really exciting, and I was you were there at
the time with your your flagship book, How to Disappear Completely, which we're
going to talk about in a moment. But you also have other works like
Electricity, and there was a sequel as well too. There was there was
a I did do Electricity, which was was actually a book that I'd blogged.
It was before the advent of the iPod. I'd experimented with blogging a
novel which was I think one of the listeners in in the ones, possibly
tense. So I then turned this an audio book, which was slightly more
successful, and there was a collection of short stories of said in the the
world of How to Disappear Completely. But I've never done a full sequel.
All right, well, I suppose, you know, for the benefit of
the audience, because here we are, we're reminiscing like but you know,
many people may say, yeah, but who is this guy and what is
it he does? So yeah, you're in Australia. You're in Melbourne,
I believe I was. I'm currently on the other side of the country.
I mean in Perth. We moved here after the first year of the pandemic
just to be in the open air. Yeah. Essentially, birth was in
this very weird position where we actually they kept the virus out here for a
full year. Yeah, so it didn't it didn't reach here until the start
of twenty twenty two, so we had this extra little year of being trapped
in this perfect bubble. I didn't know. Yeah, it's a strange place
to be. Yeah, and it looks lovely Perth. When I see pictures
of it online, it looks stunning. It's beauty. I mean we moved
here for the kids. So the kids are what nine and eleven, and
they are either at the beach of the river most days. It's kind of
idyllic if you're of a certain age. Possibly less so when you hit your
twenties, which is obviously why I left originally. So you're from Perth,
Yeah, and I was born he as my family's English. I was born
in Perth and then moved to the UK and subsequently ended up in Melbourne for
a while. And now I'm back here after a very long time. Yeah,
which is it's always weird going home again. Wow, and again.
You know, I'm all over the place with this interview. So I've got
a structure, ladies and gentlemen, I have got a structure. But it's
very hard to separate the fact that I'm very acquainted with Mike and yet not
acquainted with Mike because I didn't know that about him, you know, that
was new to me. But anyway, yes, how to disappear Completely?
I'll tell you what you tal. You just give us the basics on what
how to disappear completely is right and that, and then at least people all
know what the hell we're talking about. And I do apologize. I apologize
listeners. I've I'm rubbish at this sort of thing, as you know everyone,
I don't do this very often. All right over to Mike. Thank
you, Mike. How to disappear? Please? Well? How does this
speak completely? Was originally a podcast back in I think two thousand and five,
two thousand and six. It's now reborn as a podcast, but the
premise of it is much the same. So it involves three central characters who
the main protagonist really is Theo Theodora, whose the name is currently Theodora Jones.
I think I've swopped hers sur name three times throughout the various iterations of
the series. She's an Australian who's moved to London basically on a whim in
her twenties. While she's there, she moves there with a sort of cleingon
boyfriend, not clean on in the Star Trek sense, but clinging on,
and he disappears and trying to find him again leads her into a slightly surreal
version of London where the past exists little pockets. But on her mission to
find him, she meets Kolbe Salmon and Narrow Dusk, who are a pair
of as it turns out, time traveling detective who are not necessarily very good
at their job, and it would tend to end up causing about as much
trouble as they as they resolve, so I suppose in short, it's it's
a slightly spooky, hopefully quite exciting, but primarily fun story. And I
think with this new version, which I started podcasting in January, I really
wanted to stress the fun, to have that sense of the weird and the
mysterious and hopefully enough sense of you know, what the hell is going on
to draw you into the story. But primarily I want to listen to have
a good time, which which is you know why I'm writing it, So
I'm podcasting it. I'm doing it for my own entertainment, and I hope
it's equally entertaining for the people who are who are downloading and listening to it.
All right, well, we have a trailer here that you've made,
so this will give the listeners a sense of of what you're talking about and
the and the atmosphere of the story. Here we go. Have you ever
wanted to disappear completely? What if I told you there was a way that
tonight you could leave your old life behind and become somebody else. Tomorrow morning
you could wake up in someone else's bed, put on their clothes, and
go on to enjoy whatever life has in store for them. For them,
not you. Don't you think you deserve better? Well, maybe it's not
you that's the problem. Maybe you're just in the wrong place all the wrong
time. We can help with that too, for the right price. You
don't need to be where you are, You don't need to be when you
are. You don't need to be who you are. What you need is
Salmon and Dusk Detectives, Thieves, time travelers, lost Cats of Specialty,
The Terrible Business of Salmon and Dusk new podcast fiction written and performed by Mike
Bartlett. Find out more at Salmon and Dusk dot com. Well, there
we are, fantastic. I think that's sufficiently interest peaking stuff. Well,
I hope, so I need to work on the elevator pitch. But I
guess the idea that you get from that trailer that I probably probably didn't talk
about and should have talked about, is this idea that one of the main
drivers of the story is this idea that you can kind of cash in your
life. You can cash in your futures all the things that could happen to
you and either swap them for someone else's life and ago you can ever go
at living that, or you can just sell them off and attempt to live
without a future, or you can sell off your futures one by one.
So think, great things that could have happened to you will now happen to
someone else. So that's that's probably an element of the story that wasn't there
in the original draft. But what got me excited about going back to that
world and having another stab? So what exactly is it that that compelled you
to go back there? Because obviously you know the the you wrote the story.
I believe it's been published in some format before already, like you know,
a physical book format? Is that right? No, it hasn't,
It hasn't. Did you did you? Did you publish it? I published
the collection of short stories, right. I did have a publishing offer for
How to Disappear quite early on. Yeah, there was a company the name
of which I can't remember now, went around to a number of the Polier
books people and and and essentially tried to strike up publishing deals, and I
think they did successfully. I didn't. I didn't go with that because I
just didn't feel it was it was the right setting. I think I probably
already had had conversations with some agents who had listened to the podcast and were
keen to sell the book. There was was one age I think my first
agent. We spent a couple of years work on various drafts of it that
came to nothing. I then wrote another book which was published That was a
young adult book called Fire in the Sea. I got another agent. Off
the back of that, he and I spent a few years getting very close
to getting it published. You know, we had a major publisher interested and
it fell through at the last minute, and then another publisher and they wanted
several changes made, and again I just I pulled it. It was drifting
too far away from what I wanted. Because as soon as you start dealing
with publishers, they they have their own vision of what the story should be.
And I think it's very tempting, particularly as as an emerging writer or
a new writer, to please you know, you want to you want to
please people, and go, well, no, I can do that,
I can make the story more like that. And I think that happened over
a few years, and eventually I ended up with a very dark and and
sort of gritty version of the story. And there are still elements of genuine
horror in the story and the chapter I've just released, chapter ten, is
I hope, genuinely frightening. But below it, I think is that sort
of there's a sense of humor to it, because that's a key part of
any story. To me. I think that any story that is purely dark
and gritty to me feels kind of adolescent. That's how you think the world
should be when you're fifteen, and then you get a bit older and you
realize that even when life is at its bleakest, things are still funny.
You know that there's this human instinct to still to make a joke to lighten
the situation. So I think with this draft, I just and I've been
working on something else for years. There's another book that's out for publication at
the moment, which is a kid's book. I went back to this because
I wanted to remember why I'd written it in the first place. I think
I just I wanted to recapture that sense of fun. And also I went
back to it because I was still getting emails pretty regularly from people saying,
is it ever coming back? Yeah? Yeah, oh you know, are
you ever going to do more with these characters? And they never never really
left me. I just hadn't found the right way to get them into print.
And then I thought maybe I should stop worrying about print and just tell
the story the way I want to tell it. Yeah, go back to
podcasting, absolutely exactly, And that fantastic relationship you have with the with the
listeners, with the audience that that feeds back into the work some extent.
I think you see, you see what people respond to, what they enjoy.
And again this is coming from pathetic desire to please. You know,
you want to do more of it. You want you do. Yeah,
So there's been various iterations. Then from the version you originally podcast, it
sounds like you've gone through various changes along the way, and so now you've
arrived at a mean how how different is this version to the one that people
may already be familiar with. It is quite different. There are there are
elements that are The characters are fundamentally the same, They're the same people.
The story is different, which I think is probably just a reflection on the
fact that I've written other books since and I've learned how to tell a story
better. Yeah. That the first one, I was writing it week to
week. I had no idea what I was doing, you know, I
think the world was kind of there, the story was vague. I had
vague ideas of things I wanted to do and where it was going to end
up. I had no idea what I was doing. Were you were you
writing directly to podcasts, So you were right any week and then you'd podcast.
Yeah, yeah, that's the way I'm doing it. But I take
a month to do it now, you know I used to. I used
to take I used to take a bit longer, but so I used to
take a bit less time. But but no, that's it takes me a
month to get a chapter written, which I think is is about right.
You know, that's that sounds sensible, I think. Yeah, if I
remember correctly, I think you had to have three chapters or five chapters.
I think it was start Originally it was five books. Yeah, to start
doing part of your books. So I did five chapters, recorded those,
sent those off. I'd written maybe five and a half chapters. Yeah,
and then suddenly you need to do what you don't just need to write it.
And I was writing. I had quite a long train ride to work,
so I would write it on the laptop on my way to work and
home from work, and i'd record it in the evenings. That was that
was it, And that was every week. That was attempting to write record
mix to all of that. Wow, every week and which is insane?
And were you back in Australia when you did the podcast or were you still
living in London? No, I just I just come back from London,
so I was in I was in Melbourne, and so all the memories of
London and the underground and things like that were still fresh in your mind.
They were I think it was really an attempt. I absolutely started writing it
when I was in London. Yeah, and you know, there were large
chunks I think in the original draft which were just me trying to capture those
memories. You know. So the O would go for a long walk along
the canal and Camden because I remember that so clearly. But I could use
it. It didn't serve the story necessarily, but it was it was serving
my need to kind of keep that sense of place fresh. So it's probably
a little dustier now. And I have made the decision to set this new
version in two thousand and five, so it's it's set at the same time,
which now gives me a bit of an opportunity to play with the future.
I guess. So you can have a character who actually knows something about
what's going to happen in the next nineteen years. Wow, yes, so
you can. I'm having fun with that. It sounds it sounds really really
interesting. I listened to it. You know back in the day as it
were, but I don't remember it very well to til I can't mind you,
I can't remember anything from like what was seventeen years ago, eighteen years
ago very well. I don't remember it well myself. Mystery didn't. Occasionally
people will refer to bits of it. I have no idea, yeah,
no idea what they're talking. But then my kid's book that was was published
far in the sea, I've had dumb panels and people have asked me about
bits and that. I don't remember that. It's so real for you when
you're doing it, and then it's gone, and then it becomes someone else's,
which is which is quite right. It belongs to the audience. Yeah,
and there was I remember there was a podcast sequel, wasn't There was
that The Terrible Business, So I think I again, I just kept I
kept flipping the title, so it was it was how to Disappear Completely,
and then I went on, I'm going to call it the Terrible Business of
Seminar Dusk, and then I think the the Collection of Stories Business of Seminar
Dusk. My chalk outline, that was it? Oh that was a sequel.
Yeah, you're quite right. I'd totally forgotten that, which is which
is a great title? Right again, I had a great title, and
then they had to kind of think of a story to to to make it
work. I I had forgotten that there was a sequel and that was that
was available as a podcast. Wasn't it that was that was on Potio Books?
Yeah? Pretty sure it was. It definitely was. It was this
leads I've learned something. Yeah, well there you go. Now I've got
some I've got some questions from your listeners actually, which are fantastic? Which
which will Well I just read them to you. I think this is listening
to do. Listen. I just go down to them now. First of
all, listening called Chris Hurst, who's a big fan of yours. He
asks Chris, he says, there is a melancholic element to how to Disappear
Completely, which many think works well. Many of the best songs, TV
series and films adopt this approach. Was this a conscious decision or did it
develop out of the writing? And what are your favorite melancholy creations? It's
such a great question, Yeah, because it's not really something I'd consciously thought
about, that sense of the melancholy. And yet when I do think about
it. It's it's through everything that that I've done. It's you know,
it runs through it like a skein of rock. It's I suppose it's that
that sense of it's that happy happy sadness, isn't it's to me that just
feels very real. That's very very natural. I know when when people talk
about the podcast, and I suppose the way I've been promoting at this time
is to focus on, you know, similarities to to to Neil Gaiman,
which was necessarily something conscious but which people have mentioned so many times. I
assume it must be true. And and Douglas Adams, which is probably more
conscious, just because I rediscovered Dirk gently again a couple of years ago,
and which is a book I hadn't really got into previously, and it has
very much informed this this version. So though I think I focus on those,
the the other and and Doctor Who. Obviously the other texts or that
have influenced it more than anything else are both melancholy. The first is with
Nolanai film from nineteen eighty seven about two drunk actors at the end of the
sixties, you know, facing up to real life whatever that might be.
The end of this golden age at the end of their friendship essentially, which
is a beautifully melancholic film and also hilarious. Yeah, it's one of those
films that people can quote endlessly, yes, and often obnoxiously, and I'm
totally guilty of that. Yeah, yeah, so am I. But there's
there's such a poetry to that film, and I guess that's probably something I
wanted to capture. And when I was learning to write it was starting out
writing fiction, I read Bruce Robinson, who wrote with Lani. He wrote
a book called The Peculiar Memories of Thomas Penman, which has a similar kind
of melancholy and kind of grotesqueness to grotesque sort of poetry to it, and
that absolutely has stayed with me. I think it was a sort of a
formative text. So there's that. I think that the music that I've obviously
listened to over the years, you know, from Smith through to the slightly
more sort of outray elements of britpop through the nineties, I suppose have always
had that melancholy although again the Smith's thought of it being a very miserable band,
but their lyrics are so witty and funny, which is I think often
often missed, and I feel melancholy often goes hand in hand with humor.
But the other text I was going to talk about text sounds a bit poncey.
The TV series that that was going to talk about was Minder, which
is I think informed Salmon and Dusk more than any other, and that has
set up the relationship between the two protagonists that you've got the clever Gobby one
he's probably not quite as clever as he thinks, and his Minder essentially the
one who actually fixes things every week. So there's the clever one who gets
them into trouble and the street wise one who can effectively get them out of
trouble. But I feel that series is melancholy in the sense that they never
really So you've got Arthur Daily, it's Ducker and divers mind to Terry.
They never come out on top. Really. They might survive, or they
might get out of trouble, but it's always as kind of pyrrhic victory.
They're essentially doomed, particularly Terry is doomed to be trailing along behind Alfa forever,
and that there's something very melancholic and very appealing about that. So I
suppose those are my favorite melancholic characters, Chris, I hope that that makes
sense. We'll go with Nolan and I and Terry and Alfa. That's interest.
I wouldn't have thought of Minder, but no, I do, you
know, I've kind of It's another one of those things I forgot really in
life. I never see it on the stream or I never see it anywhere,
but yeah, I used to enjoy Minder. Can you get it on
anything over there, like Netflix or anything? No, but I I've got
the DVDs. It's a weird obsession. I don't think I've ever talked with
anyone because it's it's quite an uncommon one. Yeah, I think that while
you know, I don't know Doctor Who or Star Wars whatever, there's there's
an established fan base. I don't think that really exists. For Mind,
it was so big throughout the absolutely and Arthur Daily George Cole is such a
fantastic creations. He's one of those mortal television figures. So yeah, listeners,
if you've never seen Minder, I do encourage you, as I'm sure
Mike does, to seek it out if you can find it anywhere, because
it really is worth a watch as is of course with Nail And if you
haven't seen that and you've got a co avenue, I'm not sure whether it's
a with New coat or a doctor a Tom Baky. No, it's it
is a genuine with Nor coat. Yes, so in the film with Nor
where is this? It's a restoration coat. Essentially, it's made out of
this unique tweed, Harris tweed. And it was designed by a woman called
Andrea Gala, who a fantastic costume designer, has worked on all manner of
feature films. I interviewed her some years ago and and I've got to admit
at the back of my head was it'd be great to get it. It'd
be great to get a coat, you know in the you know, totally
unrealistic. Oh god, I would love it. I'd love her with no
coat. And anyway, we were gone on very well and at the end
of the interview she said what size are you? Wow? And I said,
oh that I'm that, you know, six foot six one, And
she went, ah, I think I've got a coat that might fit you.
And it was actually it was a coat that was that she'd made for
someone else who was selling it for for other rather sad reasons. Anyway,
I sent her a very measly amount of money for it. She posted it
to me. It didn't fit right, that's so I had to send it
back, so she made me another one. N It's extraordinary, just absolutely
extraordinary. I and when we were living in Melbourne, I lived in that
coat. I mean it's it's it's cold three you know, three quarters of
the year. It's like it's like walking around in a kind of a suit
of armor made out of a duvet. You know, you just you just
feelt completely completely sheltered. And yeah, no, I love that coat.
I love it so much that it's it's it's the coat that Kilbe wears.
It's it's very explicitly described as as him wearing with Nor's coat by Andrea Gaynor.
Goodness, gracious, that's Brettan. You've actually got one. That's that's
so cool. Well, okay, we'll move on to Chris's next questions.
That's it's a revelation. Urban fantasy, asks Chris, or says Chris.
Urban fantasy is difficult a niche, and many have failed. How did you
go about creating the alternate dimension in your imagination? London is well suited to
this would it work in an Australian settings, So there's two questions there,
So how do you go about creating this alternate dimension in your imagination. I
think it was really just what London felt like to me. It's particularly being
a stranger to there. It just it's, you know, it's a city
that is always going to be unknowable. There is that sense that you if
you find the right alley or the right detoy, you're going to end up
somewhere weird, that you could almost stumble back into a little pocket of the
past then you know, and I'm living there, walked into pubs which absolutely
had that feeling. It was he was still in the nineteen seventies or the
version of London that I guess I've grown up from watching it in mind or
with non and I was still was still there to be discovered. So I
think that was it was. It was from walking around London. And it
was also, it must be said, from walking around London quite drunk.
I think that you know that. And it occurs to me that the two
melancholic characters that I picked out in Arthuram are both drunks. So I think
boozing at that point of my life was such a large, a large part
of my you know, a quiet night was on the way home, you'd
only have three pints, you know, so we won't we won't drink tonight,
We'll just have the three pints before before dinner. Then that obviously,
that's easy to do in your early twenties and I'm now my forties and it's
it's no when it was tempting. But I think that sense of so that
alternate world was from being in this place that seemed magical and having that sort
of liquid, the liquid magic in your veins too, where you just feel
that anything might be possible. I guess I really wanted to capture that sense
of wonder that the perfect level of alcohol can give you walking around the city
like London. Yeah, what's the second part of the question. The second
part of question was would would it London as well suited to this? Would
it work in an Australian setting? I don't think so. And in fact
I had the idea, the basic, the bare bones idea of the eternal
Footman. These you know, these kind of wings of desire, slightly sinister,
angelic Butler's to history that keep everything on track. I'd had that idea
since the nineties and I was living in Perthin. It didn't really find a
home until I moved to London. And I think it's just because the I
don't feel Australia really has the same sense of history or depth of history.
I mean, there's obviously indigenous history, which is is one of the it
is the longest continuous culture. But in terms of the kind of architecture and
the mythology that I was at the least I was familiar with, there wasn't
that. So I guess that was, you know, moving to London,
particularly, I haven't grown up in an English family, which we talked about
this stuff all the time. That was a kind of a an English diaspora.
They set up a little corner of England in most Park, their place
they lived in in Perth. So I think going back there felt very familiar
and very strange at the same time I lived there, but I felt I
knew it and the culture was very familiar to me in a way that while
I often felt quite sort of alienated in Perth, I guess because I wasn't
it wasn't so readily available here, if that makes sense, that makes perfect
sense. But now a short break and we're back with Mike Bartlett. So
number three then from Chris, Podcasting is one of the great successes of the
democratization of the media landscape. You were there at the start along with MB
with were both mbs. But I'm sure you made me confusing. How has
it changed? Has it become corporatized, and where is it heading? Well,
I think it has become corporatized, hasn't it. It's it's certainly.
I think in launching this podcast, I was keen to make it look more
corporate and more professional, and you know, made sure I had the proper
equipment and all that sort of thing. And I haven't really publicized it yet.
I was waiting for the story to really kind of kicking to gear.
But I think it's it's harder to get discovered. I mean, everyone everyone
has a podcast. You know, people I've known for years I've realized have
a podcast. And I had no clue that this has been going on.
And I suspect many people I know feel would be a surprise to learn that
I have one. So yes, no, it has. It's a very
crowded marketplace now it's in that sense it's harder to just stand out or or
to be discovered, and certainly setting it up this time around, there are
so many different you know, services that you need to get it going.
Part of your books, we just sent it off. I think when I
started doing it on my own for the Seminar Dusk Short Stories, I'm pretty
sure I just ussed archive or to store the the files and then build a
feed off of that, and they did reasonably well. And now I'm using
pod being which obviously you know, you have to pay for. So there's
there's all this upfront costs, which I think, yes, makes it less
democratic. It's you know, it's not only that you need time or hopefully
some kind of inclination to being able to write and talk. You you need
you need some some capital to be able to pour into pour into it to
compete. And even then, you know, it's not just everyone you know,
everyone you know as a podcast. It's every celebrity you know has a
podcast too. So what do you do to stand out in that? I
don't know yet. It's so difficult, you know, I mean to start,
I mean, obviously you've got an audience you know from the past,
and you know your podcast has been available until recently when you took it down
to start again. So you know, you've been you've you've had an audience,
you know, and you've you've maintained it to a degree, and now
so you're not starting completely cold. I think someone No, yeah, I
was gonna say, I think someone someone say, for example, another writer
who kind of who sort of approached podcasting, you know, perhaps an amateur
with no publishing history, like like we both were back in the day.
It would be very hard to find anybody, you know, be a case.
You put it on your podcast feed and you'd say, listen to my
podcast, please. Friends, you know, you say to friends, your
family, your Facebook friends, and I don't know about you. But if
I ask my Facebook friends, actually, you know, the people I actually
know rather than the people I know through podcasting my audience, but the people
I know in my personal life, you know, in different countries wherever,
wherever I've lived, I say, check out this, you know, just
follow this link or look at my podcast. Nobody does, you know,
nobody does. And it's really, really, really difficult to get any It
is to you. And I've talked about this in the past, but I
also have a deep sense, deep seated sense of shame about having to kind
of promote, promote myself myself out It doesn't come naturally at all. And
and I think what I learned from that first run of podcasters or part of
your books, I should say, was I was wrong, and that people
that that got past that and were able to promote themselves did fantastically well.
And and that I think listeners or readers, when they're discovering something that is
essentially self published, they want that reassurance, you know, because it hasn't
got that rubber stamp of a publishing house has made this, or you know,
now a podcast studio has made this. Some guy under his stairs,
and in fact I am indeed talking to you from under my stairs. Some
guy under his stairs has made this. Is it any good? I need
to know? And if he can assure you, if you, if I
can can insue that it's good, then maybe you'll feel justified giving up three
hours of your time to listen to the first ten episodes. But so I'm
trying, I am trying. I'm trying that I'm trying to market myself more.
But it it is embarrassing, and I've actually had the experience where people
I know, not not that podcast listeners or you know, that slightly diminished
audience from years ago, but actual people friends of mine are listening to the
podcast. We'll send me text messages and go, oh, I'm really enjoying
it. It is great. And it also makes me really uncomfortable because I
think when you're recording each chapter, it's just you, and you need to
pretend you're just doing it for yourself. Really, you do that the thought
that someone might be listening to it eventually, and you know, I've done
a fair bit of radio, and it's the same thing that if you're doing
radio thinking there are ten twenty thousand people listening to me at this moment,
then you're going to freeze up and you're going to you're going to totally bold
it up. But just if it's just you and the studio, then it
makes it that Obviously it's it's good for the listeners because it feels intimate,
and it's good for you because you're you're being honest or with the best version
of yourself without being crippled by self consciousness. Yeah no, and I think
the same with writing. You have to kind of you have to write for
yourself as well. If you start writing to try to try to please everybody,
then you're going to fail, you know, because yes, you know,
I mean I get, I get Occasionally people will say to me,
Oh, you know, I don't know the way the story is going,
We'll stop listening then, I mean, I don't say. I don't say
that, but that's kind of That's what I think beginning, because I can't
change everything to suit everyone. It has to be my vision and people.
And because that's what people are listening for. You know, they're not listening
to to so you know that there's another guy whose influence you know where he's
going to take the story. I don't like where the other guy wants it
to go. And so all those people you know, you can only write.
You have to write for yourself first and foremost. Is what I'm saying.
I believe, and I'm sure it's the same for you. It's absolutely
true, and I think it's what I've really it's why I'm doing this again.
It's to remind myself that's why I was writing it, yeah, in
the first place. And there's I think there was a quote from John Clee
saying that you know trying to please everyone as pointless. Just do stuff that,
just do stuff that makes you laugh. Yes, that's you've got to
trust your your instinct that that it's right. It won't always be right.
I think, having been through the editortorial process with books where a lot does
get changed, I think the way I've approached that, and as a journalist
too, is when changes are requested, realizing that maybe something's not quite working,
but it's not necessarily the way that that other person sees it. So
your editor might say, I think you should do this here or this,
this bit isn't working for these reasons. Then I'll have an I might have
another shot at it, but it's got to be the way that I want
to want to tell it. Yeah, And the least thing. I think
the first podcast I did have a sense of finding out what people wanted from
a story broadly, and I think one of the best bit of feedback I
had was they wanted to see the characters actually triumph at some point, and
I was coming from that sort of melancholic viewpoint of no, no, no,
they just and this is really common in Australian storytelling. No, this
is a downward spiral, this is going to get worse and worse, and
that actually turned me around and went, ah, actually it would be nice.
So immediately in the next chapter they won the situation and you could and
the feedback from not just that one person was marked. You see that.
Actually all right, that sort of thing, that sort of thing works,
but it was still my thing. Yeah, and that's interesting. Okay,
I've got another question here. Oh no, I haven't finished, actually,
Chris. The last part of Chris's question was how has it changed and where
is it heading? So where where do you think this corporatization of the media
landscape, the democratization of the media landscape, How do you see this?
Where is it going? In your opinion, It's hard to tell, because
yes, you've seen you can see the way that the Internet has gone from
being this this kind of forum in which people just shared stuff they liked.
You know, I've RENI book. I think you might like it. Hear
you why you can have it? Or you know those early torrent sites,
the ones that I loved obviously dubious legality now, but at the time it
was people sharing their VHS collection. It was like, I recorded all have
dropped the Dead Donkey back in the nineties, it's never been made available here
you go, and that was great. There wasn't this sense of how who's
making money out of this? The guy that was sharing his VHS collection,
he didn't want money for it. He was sharing it because because it was
something he loved and he thought someone else would be interested. And that has
has gone. And I think that everyone now has become not everyone, a
sense that you need to become your own brand to some extent. So we've
all got a little more savvy about how we are selling ourselves, whether that's
selling our you know, posts on Instagram what do we call those instans?
Uh, you know, our tweets on what was formerly known as Twitter,
you know, whatever, we're thinking about how how can how can I market
this? How can how can I monetize this? Possibly, so that is
always at the back of your head. Obviously, that's that's there for me
with this podcast, But I'm not I still feel that there is space for
for things, hopefully like the terrible, terrible business of some of the Dusk,
which are idiosyncratic and which are the work of well, you know,
I'm trying to avoid using the word out because I certainly don't see myself in
that way, but the work of one person that you are still getting those
unique voices that haven't been corporatized. And one of the other reasons that I
was keen to do this podcast again was I felt it was the way that
publishing had changed in the time since I published my first book was that it
was I think what publishing was interested in tended to be focused more around the
sort of issues of identity. I suppose often or you know, who the
author was, rather than the story they were telling. And I just want
to tell the story. I think that's that's it. I don't have a
particularly interesting identity. You know, I'm a white blob. That's you know,
that's I'm not marketable in that sense. So, and I would like
to the sense in which I feel the Internet is still democratic is I can
still take that story and hopefully find an audience for it on my own,
people who just want the story and perhaps aren't so interested in me, which
I feel quite happy about. Excellent, all right, and so what have
we got Now? We've got a question long question, which again can be
broken down the two parts. This is from Paul Crow and he asks an
obvious question from me would be whether Mike has any more salmon and dusk in
his bones to write? Ah, I do so. This so the Terrible
Business of Salmon and Dusk as it is being podcasted now. The first book
is How to Disappear Completely. There will be three more books, just just
for clarity as you can. How to Disappear Completely is the first book,
but the podcast is and the Terrible Business of Salmon and Dusk. That's right,
right, So that's what people confusing part is. Yeah, yes,
the confusing part is the podcast was originally called how to Disappear Completely, right,
which I've had this title for years, and then Radiohead did a song
called that which probably didn't hurt. But yes, no, that's now just
the podcast is The Terrible Business of Semen and Dusk and How to Disappear is
just the first book, and there will be four, which are in various
states of completion, and I hope along the way a few sort of side
steps because one of the other reasons I went back to it was I had
all these great ideas for little short stories within that world, and I just
couldn't work out how to tell them on their own. So I thought,
rather than trying to get this book published, which made sense as a book,
I'm going to break it into pieces and release something that hopefully makes sense
more like a TV series that makes sense as a as a serial. Yeah,
so yes, there is there. I don't think they will ever be
out of my bones. And I have various little side steps. You know,
there's a young adult idea of set world that in fact there's this.
I have written a young adult book already that is set in that world,
which is, according to my agent, needs a second draft. And there's
in the world of ideas. It's it's a slight side step. It is
actually set in Australia, that one. Yeah, and it's it's a little
more I picture it as been kind of a you know, one of those
black and white early nineties indie films. Yeah, it's it's it's got that
kind of like David Lynchy Vin Vendors kind of feel to it. So that
that that is there, I may well podcast that is it? Is it
available? Is a book already? It is not. It's not. No,
that's that's in that's in draft form, right, But there are ideas
all over the place, and I really am hoping, you know, I
forget this this podcast. Uh, you know, if it's got legs then
then yeah we can we can take definitely has legs. Let's let's go on.
Then. I love this because you you you clearly have a universe,
you know, as there as they say, you know, we've got the
Salmon and Dusk universe exists. So I think you should just go all out
for it because if if people love it, and they will want more and
more and more of it. And I think you know the fact that people
have been you found that with Underwood and Flinch absolutely yeah, but the fact
that people have been you know even now, sorry but I mean even until
you recently restarted the podcast, you were still hearing from people saying more,
please, more, please more pace and yeah, you know that's what was
it seventeen eighteen years ago and it's still happening. I think, yeah,
yeah, So no, what's really weird? I should I should tell you
that actually on that point, Mike, that I've had someone get in touch
recently who listened to it when they were a young man and is now sharing
it with a teenage daughter. Yeah. I get that as well. It's
weird too, Yeah, yeah, isn't that weird? Yeah, it's wonderful
from young people who who who who? Basically, you know, my dad
played this to me when I was a kid. I was in the back
of the car, and you know, I've grown up with Underwood Finch.
It's it's really fantastic. It is it is, and Paul's question continues.
He also wants to know whether Electricity exists anywhere with its magnificent original soundtrack.
Now, this of course refers back to when you originally used to podcast your
stuff. You used to use copyrighted songs, didn't you, which I used
to think, this is so bold of you. It was very cheeky.
Yeah, and I should so if I remember correctly. Yeah, I did
my own podcast, so I think did How did spear through pot of Books
built up a bit of an audience there and then set up Electricity as a
separate thing. I can't remember how I promoted that, but it was it
ended up there. Yeah, But originally I did a version of it because
music was such a part of not the writing process itself, but inspiring the
writing that I was. You know, my first proper job was as a
music journalist, you know, and worked in called stores, you know,
Tower Records in London for years, for most of my twenties, so it
was such a part of it that I felt it had to be in the
story as well. So I did do a version of a Christy which,
yeah, which is very dodgy and featured songs that were not mine to include.
And then there was a Party of Books version which had royalty free music,
as they were quite rightly wise to that. So in answer to your
question, Paul, probably it probably exists somewhere out in the world of Torrance.
Yeah, all right, that's interesting, okay, but it is,
yeah, the the whole you know, copyrighted music on podcast, because I
did that with a couple of episodes of Underwood and Flinch. I used utterly
copyrighted version of What Fortuna From Coming? Yeah, yeah, it's a cliche,
you know. It's better known these days as being the thing on The
X Factor Excalaber. But it worked fabulously, but I've taken that off now.
And I also used Soul Train by Swan's Way, which was absolutely perfect.
It worked so well, but of course I had to remove it.
Ah, it's a shame. It's hard if ever, and with a new
podcast, Narrow is so into his music and in the version I wrote,
there's references to all the songs he's listening to. Yeah, I had to
take those out. You've removed the references as well, Yes, so I
think they get into the cab drives his time traveling cabra around the place and
its stairs. He's listening to Desmond dec As Israelites, which is a fantastic
song, and it's just right for that scene. But I'm not paying for
it anymore. You know. The dream is if ever a TV series or
a movie is made, you can present them with the original soundtrack. I
say, this is it. This is what they should be listening to you,
This is you know, this is what should be happening. Same with
mine, you know. But don't don't worry about coming Urana anybody, but
do use Swan's way anyway. That's that's all of the questions we've got from
your listeners, Mike. But is there anything else that you wanted to say
to people about the book the podcast? Not really? I mean I as
I've said that the idea of marketing myself is still still quite alien to me,
and I clearly need to work on the elevator pitch. But it's I
really, I hope people enjoy it. I mean, that's it's the chapter
I've just finished that just went up today, is chapter ten. I've been
looking for to sharing this, you know, and that's the mixing on.
It's very nice. The writing I think is pretty good. The reading's all
right. It's nice when you've created something that you're just eager to share with
the world. And that's really how I feel about this. So I hope
people enjoy it. I think it's, you know, I've had. It's
been very nice. I think it's the story is much stronger than the original
draft, but hopefully it still has that slightly slightly unfathomable world, you know.
I think I've always liked stories that don't stop to explain everything. I
think there was I think it was Jimy McGovern who said that he'd rather be
confused for ten minutes than board for ten seconds, you know, Yeah,
that I would like the idea of some aspect of the storytelling and being slightly
out of reach. I think in the original version there was all these references
to chalk that weever we explained it was just this kind of magical substance,
and I probably meant to nail that down at some point and then and then
and then didn't. I don't remember what what was magic about it now,
So there's hopefully enough mystery there, but but a little more satisfying in terms
of plot. Okay, so just just for the for the benef everyone.
I mean, I'll put some links up on on this post, you know,
you know, on on where people get their podcasts and whatnot on my
web site. But people can reach you at Mike Bartlett dot com. But
it's it's d O T C side, you know, it's it's not actually
because I forgot to renew my I forgot to renew my U r L and
some bastard stole it. Really so how they did? How unlikely is that?
I know exactly? I mean, how much money are they having to
make from from my U r L? I've had it for twenty years?
That's it's annoying sense. It's now the Mike butt that I think I got
that from you. Certainly that's your email it is, yeah, so it's
that's your super email address. It's no, it's the mic but ny K.
But the best place to find Salmon and Dusk is at Salmon and Dusk
dot com Salmon and Dusk dot com. You can't go wrong with that,
ladies. Yes, and I will put link wherever you get your podcasts.
Yes, that's that's the main thing. There's a Facebook group dedicated to seminon
Dusk. That's fantastic. Yeah, and okay, brilliant. And you've do
you have a Do you have an author page on Facebook or I do?
So there's an author page and I've been sharing stuff from semin and Dusk on
that okay, which it's it's it's been a bit tricky because that my obviously
for the last fifteen years I've worked as a journalist, so my author page
has been mainly sharing. He has an art club just written interviewing Neil Finn
from Crowded House but whatever it was, And now I'm going here's here's a
podcast that's good. So it's a slightly conflicted audience. So I've set up
the sem and Dusk one to concentrate that particular audience there and hopefully we can
we can Expand that's brilliant. All right, Well, thank you so much
for joining us today, Mike. I'm sure everybody's enjoyed hearing about the world
of salmon and Dusk as much as I have, and I would like to
wish you absolutely every success with the podcast and I hope it really takes off
for you as it deserves. Thanks Mike, Oh, thank you. It's
been fantastic talking to you after such a gap. Yeah yeah, a long
time all right, yeah, okay, thank you very much then, Mike
Bartlet days and gentlemen. So there we are, my friends, my conversation
with Mike Bartlett, author, journalist, podcaster and all around jolly goodfellow.
I hope you enjoyed it. Now. If you've never ventured into the world
of Salmon and Dusk, then I do urge you to do so. The
easiest thing to do is, obviously, as soon as you finished listening to
this, seek it out on your little podcast app thing and dive straight in.
It's so easy, isn't it not like back in two thousand and six
when you used to have to go to the Podiobooks website on your computer,
find the podcast from within the library and then download the episodes onto your computer
and from there load them onto your MP three player. Of course, if
you had an iPod you could also use the iTunes app on your computer.
Mind, you and then you could do the same again, you know,
connect your iPod to your computer and drag them drop them onto your iPod,
and then finally you could listen to it. Huh. The young people of
today have no idea of the hardships we used to have to endure. Do
they tell me listeners if you were listening back in those days, did you
use to download the whole podcast of a novel and then store them onto external
hard drives? You know, the big plastic boxes with about one gig of
space that used to just give up and die on you without warning and take
everything with them. And no I did. Ah, yeah, the good
old days. Let me know in the comments if you did. And you
know, maybe you've still got some from those days. That'd be interesting,
wouldn't it. You know you may have some collector's items. If you're listening
on Spotify, I'll pose that question in the Q and a box that you
can call up when you you know you've got the episode open on your phone,
And I will, as I said in the interview, put links to
Mike's website in this episode's post at my website Mike Bennett author dot com.
And as for me, I will be back in your ears in just a
few weeks time, when I resume a regular podcasting service of your favorite vampire
saga in the whole world ever, I mean, of course Underwood and Flinch.
Just in case you were confused, there, Yes, Listener Season five
begins in March, so do be sure and stay subscribed. Hi, Mike,
is there any news about the Underwood Finch television series? Ah? Actually
no surprise. Surprise stuff has happened, but nothing of any consequence to be
honest, you know, it's a bit like the whole TV show thing.
It's a bit like waiting for a bus, really, and you wait for
a long time and no bus turns up. Eventually you're going to have to
go home, aren't you. And I have gone home and kind of try
to forget about it, which I think is the best thing to do,
you know, when it comes to my mental health. So no, there's
no news that I can impart to you. If I do hear anything,
obviously, if the bus does arrive, then the producer will contact me and
let me know. And if that happens, of course I will let you
know too. And so that's basically all I have for you this time.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you've enjoyed the show. My thanks once again
to Mike Bartlett for being a most splendid guest, and to you as always
for listening. But for me for now, until the moon rises again over
Underwood and Flinch in season five this March, farewell. This has been a
Mic Bennett production, obviously, who else is it going to be? And
now a word from RAI voiceover artists. Now you can get Mike Bennett's Patreon
podcasts in your Spotify app For just three dollars a month, you can rejoin
the unf Saga sign up at Mike's Patreon. You know you need it,
You know you do