Is it history or just a grand story? Tiptoe on the type rote between
fact and fairy tale. Watch out for id laws playing puppet master with the
past. The latest slavery had its perts, according to their history remix.
Conservative publishers are obsessed with alternate history. Founding fathers are rock star no flaws
allowed. But it turns out Founders weren't all fans of the Enlightenment, but
conservatives twist history to fit their narrative. Robert E. Lee practically a sight.
Why does this matter? Bad history seale, especially in conservative market.
It's not just a political struggle, it's a battle over reality itself. And
this story is from NBC News by Mike Lofgren on November fourth, twenty twenty
three. I will I'll just say I have a lot of interesting things to
say, so I'll let you guys get to it first. Hellen, what
do you have to say about this? Oh? I love some historical revisionis
people you know that want to rely on people's feelings and their lack of education
to kind of share pick history to fit a narrative. It's disgusting and I
hate to quote Ben Shiperial, but facts don't care about your feelings. I
hate to do that, but it's true. And this is just another things
that people that are racist and also are uncomfortable that white people did bad dates
in the past, and instead of looking at those things like rid in the
eye, they want to twist historical fact to pretend that the United States was
always a Christian nation and we never did anything wrong, and it's just been
a perfect utopia. I mean, like we're all living in a utopia right
now, right everybody. I mean, you know, that's exactly what's happening.
So it's a little bit of a problem. And I think what the
a lot of the issue is people like Mardon, who will go into a
little bit later, is wanting to spend these narratives not because he thinks he
found new evidence, you know, he just the reason is to play to
a group of people that are they want to believe in this fairy tale about
America, and it gets twisted up into religion, into this Christian nationalistic shit
cake, and it's not good for anybody. So I probably have a couple
of questions, but I'm going to send it over to Scott over here.
Sure thing. Sure thing. And first of all, when I when I
was reading this article that the tone I actually found a little bit off putting.
It seemed quite it was from what was at Salon dot com. Uh
it was. It seemed quite partisan, even more so than I would have
expected. And so not that I was disagreeing with what they were saying,
and they were, they were, you know, making their points and so
forth, but just the tone of it, it put me on the defensive.
And and I don't even say that that's necessarily a bad thing. You
know. I like being put on the defensive when I'm when i'm especially when
i'm reading something that I'm expecting to agree with. It's nice to have that.
But anyway, to quote a former nonprofit Russell Glasser, my skepty sense
was tingling when I was reading this. But way back when I was for
my first appearance on the nonprofits here, I found a research article that and
the article connected traditionally conservative Republican viewpoints with authoritarianism. Since then I read this
book called Authoritarianism and Polarization in American Politics by Heatherington and Wyler, and that
book just contained ton of research and they found that they could tell a lot
about an individual just by asking them a few questions about their views on authoritarianism.
You know, it should be focusing on aspects like loyalty and purity and
that kind of stuff, and they found that there were very very strong connections
there. So whenever I see something like this, I try to look at
it through the lens of authoritarianism. And so when I hear people talking about
the Founding father my first thought is, so, what, you know,
we do a lot of things different than the Founding Fathers. You know,
we do a lot of things better than the Founding Fathers did. And so
you know, we're not Thomas Jefferson or George Washington or whomever you might want
to either include or not include in that group. We live in a different
world than they did, and we have different problems. We don't our doctors
don't follow the same advice that they had back then, And so, you
know, why should we expect the Founding Fathers to have these pearls of wisdom
that can be applied to running our country now in the year twenty twenty three.
But if I were somebody who was prone to be leaning towards authoritarianism,
I would definitely be concerned about what the Founding Fathers said because that you know,
if you're an authoritarianism or authoritarianist that's hard to say ten times fast.
If you're one of them, then you're looking for that authority figure, this
founding father, that serves a role, that serves a role that's the pure,
the essence of what it is to be an American. And so if
they say what you're saying, boy, that sure makes you, you know,
really have your finger on the pulse of what's needed in this country.
And so so if we look at it through that lens of authoritarianism, it
it makes total sense that this is that, this is what's happening. It's
not about the truth or falsity of the claims or the truth or the accuracy
or inaccuracy of the history. It's does what the authority says match what I
believe? And so again if we look at it from that, from that
perspective, I think it really makes a lot of sense. Having a history
that matches what you believe gives you a sense of validation and even a sense
of righteous justification. And we see the same things happening in religion too.
We see maybe even way more in religion than we see in politics. You
know, different interpretations of the Bible. And it's amazing and very coincidental that
the interpretation that a person has on a on an authority figure, on authoritative
textative document from history. It's amazing that their interpretation always matches what they were
thinking anyway, it's crazy. And so you know, I find that looking
at it that way really helps to understand where they're coming from. And in
order to change somebody's mind, or to have a productive conversation with somebody,
or to you know, to make some kind of connection, you have to
have that understanding of where they're coming from and what's motivating them. And you
know, that's something that I use in the classroom all the time. You
have to you know, teaching is not something that's done to a student.
It's it's a relationship between the teacher and the student. It's a back and
forth. And if you don't know, if you don't know how the person
is hearing you, then you have no idea how your message is landing on,
you know, landing in their ears. And so Infidel, what what
are your thoughts there? You seem to be doomed to follow me on each
of these articles here this week, So sorry about that. Well, I
have to say that I think you really laid out an important point is that
but not only is there a monolithic motivation, and there's you know, we
see two things at play. We see a group of people who are taking
advantage of those who are easily led by a group of ideas or beliefs that
you know, confirm what they already want to believe or what they want to
think. But you know, the real force at player the people who are
taking advantage of it. I mean, because hate is always in fashion.
You know, I would say that the colors change, but that would be
dishonest because there's no reason to find new things to hate when the old ones
will do. And that's what we're seeing a lot with what's going on.
Then. You know, we're seeing what wasn't that long ago to be unacceptable,
things on the right to say in public. You know, now we
have a Speaker of the House who is promoting a constitutional convention to you know,
potentially put away our constitution. Those are things that are would be considered
rather extremists. But this is what they've been looking for for a long time.
I think we've seen hate become professionalized. I think we're seeing people on
two convergence. You mentioned religion as well, and I think religion plays a
huge role in what we've seen on this uptick of the right wing and their
shrill behavior. We're seeing a group of people in this country, the white
majority, is facing the reality that they're going to become a plurality in the
next twenty years. And rather than say, okay, well, you know,
I've had white privilege, but being aware of that now, instead of
making them learn the viable lesson that they could, oftentimes what it's doing is
kicking them into victimhood where you know, we're the ones who are being wrong,
whether it's religion, whether it's race, it's the others that are,
you know, the problem, not me, not my group, but them.
And with seeing that and Christianity being on decline, I think that they're
losing and they know it. And I know there's hope for the people who
believe these doctrines of hate and authoritatorianism. I know I didn't choose to stay
with it, and you know, but the truth is, the words that
we hear now are the words that we heard decades before. And the reason
they haven't changed is because these views come from the same place they come from.
Fear, fear of change, fear of the unknown, fear of them,
whatever them is, and that is what's being taken advantage of here.
Fear is easier than trust, no doubt about it. It is a safer
option. But I have to admit trust is much more rewarding. Fear only
brings downsides, and for people who are wrapped up in this right wing propaganda
machine, I can only say, just step outside of your own comfort zone.
I promise you it's worth it. Blayton, I love everything y'all said,
but I want to touch on the actual articles. When I opened it,
it opened up with just the quote that I love. It's from George
Orwell's book nineteen eighty four. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
You know, in these circles, we don't talk about things like that,
you know. I think I read that book you might school reading.
But the quote states who controls the past controls the future, who controls the
present controls the past? And me, being a card carrying member of the
Black Delegation, I can attest to being part of a community of people that
have historically been without control or like control over our own beings, let alone
our own history. You know what I mean. So this is why I
just now learned within the last year that in eighteen twenty five there was a
thriving black community of free people in Central Park. We all know what's in
Central Park now, it's not a community. So like, these are things
that I didn't learn into adulthood. I also bet that you guys didn't even
know that George Orwell didn't actually write nineteen eighty four. He plagiarized it from
an Italian author by the name of my Tailmencini. And this is the man
that I literally just made up because facts mean fuck off in this dumb decade
and fish. You see how easy that is. Anybody hearing that is like,
oh damn what George, come on man, But like easy to play
a simple seed of doubt, using actual things and manipulating them for my own
purposes. And weird thing is, here's the crazy thing. So I went
ahead and googled the name Matoe Mensini and I actually found someone named my Tail
Mensini who was an author and he was born in nineteen eighty three. I
don't I don't believe anything. The trust is broken, it's going to take
time that google. Like imagine somebody who didn't just make up this person googling
Matsini. But you know what I mean, googling this person, it will
seeing you down a rabbit hole that you would never get out of. So
like that's the crux of the whole thing, Like why do we just humans
in general? Why do we jump to conspiracies in the first place? And
it's I think it was infant that kind of touched on this. We want
to feel like we know something that other peoples don't, Like we get that
sense of control, and especially living in times like now, where there's this
intense lack of control, it's much easier to plant that seed. So like
I feel like I'm going to say this, this is my opinion. A
lot of our history is propaganda, and living outside of the States has really
driven that home from me. Like once I started to see how every other
country has their version of the events that I've learned about throughout my whole life,
and each country comes out smelling like roses, you know what I mean,
You get a sense of oh, okay, so everybody pattern here,
everybody has an angle here, But like I don't know how to rewrite history
or even what channels that I would have to go through in order to discover
the truth of the past. But here's what I do know. There are
things happening as we speak that are being misrepresented and twisted to fit a narrative,
and it's absolutely on us to ensure that moving forward, history is preserved
and never told to only one limb. Like it's much easier for people,
or it was much easier from people before to write something down to just say
history boom done. Anybody that questions this year a liar in your breath stinks
it was that easy. But like, that's not the situation that we're in
currently. We have the technology people, we have a means of communications with
the entire world that is unique to our time, Like when when Tosa was
bombed in nineteen twenty one, nobody had an iPhone. I was in my
thirties the first time I even saw a photo of Tusa as a thriving community
and not rubble, Like that's not something like, it's not something that I
want for future generations. I don't want my grandchildren or their children to find
out what the remains of the Middle East once looked like you know what I
mean, it's up to us to maintain the reality of today so that we
have an accurate depiction of what will once be history. I said, I
had a lot to say, and that was it. Hell and what you
got from well, because when I was looking when I was reading the article
and I started thinking about you know, we were talking, You're talking about
how information just spread our finger tips, like we want to know something.
But but it's a double edged sword because I know the algaium feeds me that
I'm like, it knows that I want to look at scholarly journals that I'm
looking for, you know, more nuanced information, because that's I've learned.
I went to college, everybody I learned how to do research. So I'm
a little bit I'm a little bit picky when it comes to those things.
But for some people they don't know what they're looking for. They as you
said, we we like things that match our feelings, that make us feel
like we're right, and we also that we discovered something you know, new.
Like I always feel like when I find something that I think is you
and I tell somebody else, they're like, I already knew that. I'm
like, God, damn, it like I want. I wanted to feel
like it, you know, I want to feel like an archaeologist and I
found something cool and I want to share with people. But it doesn't work
that way. And I think also too, when we're talking about like the
revisionist history, this is getting now infiltrated into school like I where I live,
and for this revisionist history narrative is being pushed into school. That is
a real problem. I know Skot agrees with me on this. As a
teacher, and are other people that are educators, they will say this is
this is completely messed up. And teachers that actually like history, teachers that
actually you know, want to get a degree to teach people history, you
now have to twist and think about how they're going to teach things. And
that's a problem. It's a deep problem. And if you don't have your
you know, your skeptical spidy senses on, if you're not trying to remind
yourself you do need to be proven wrong to know what the truth is.
You have to remember that it's going to make you uncomfortable. Everybody. Sometimes
we don't like to learn things that make us uncomfortable, but it makes you
a more educated, well versed person and helps to expand your mind a little
bit more. So, you know, I'm just saying that, you know,
you might be uncomfortable. It's okay, it's going to pass. I
promise, you know, drink a bottle of wine will be fine. So
anyway, Scott, they're heading towards the section. Everybody gets sixty seconds to
give their opinion opinion on our next bit here, last final thought, last
word. Well, I wanted to reiterate everybody, reiterate what Blayton was saying
about the desire to see. If you it gives you a sense of of
knowing something, if the idea of a conspiracy theory. It also gives a
sense of superiority, right, it gives you know, I was able to
figure something out and you, sheeple, we're not able to come up with
it. So it's it's it's it's like a liquor. It's like a it's
like an enticement. It's like a siren calling to you. It's like,
oh, I will validate all of your most horrible beliefs, and I will
give you this sense of being better than everyone else. Come to me,
Come to me, come to this this uh this sweet island of misinformation,
and it's just, uh, it's it can be very tempting. It can
be very tempting, and so you know, as weak human beings, you
know, I'm almost surprised it doesn't happen more. I suppose that's the information
age that we're in, right, It makes everything easier, including misinformation.
I think I was sixty eight seconds on that. Well, first, let
me say this very clearly, since the book nineteen eighty four was brought up,
you haven't read nineteen eighty four unless you've read it in its original kling
On starting they there's lots of nuance in there. There's lots of nuances,
especially the opera scene, right right, Yeah, seriously, though, I
do think that the right is fighting a losing battle, and that's the one
thing that gives me hope. People constantly exposing that, and not as you're
stupid for believing that, but just poking the hole, coming around the edges
and forcing people to think about things that their circle is not going to make
them think about that. The people who think the same way they do aren't
going to make them think at all. Because yeah, I'm the kind of
person. Let's grab it let's blow it up. Let's blow some shit up
and we'll figure it out from there. But the truth is that's not the
effective way to do it. Maybe more fun, maybe more instant gratification.
But I think these conversations are important to point out the flaws and the weaknesses
in all of our thinking because we're all, as we pointed out, vulnerable
to this. So it's always good to be on your toes. Blake,
I was literally going to echo that exact Yeah, I was going to echo
that exact same sentiment. I want, I just want everybody to remember Matteo
Mancini. Just think about it every time you feel like you're too smart to
be fooled by this, or I was a Christian, I've gotten out of
it, and I know when it's coming. Now I see it coming.
No, no, you don't always see it coming. Stay skeptical. That's
my message to everybody. Stay skeptical. You are not above pray. We
are all sheeple to some degree. Just be careful, ye, because it's
better myself. So hey, if you don't want to be a sheeple and
you want to stay skeptical and watch more nonprofits and get more stuff into your bravery,