WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:05.719 Karen. Yes, we've had hundreds of conversations about hundreds of different topics while 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:11.560 doing the show. Sadly, just because someone's consciousness might be expanding, what 3 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:16.640 doesn't necessarily mean you can safely integrate your new awareness into your daily lived experience, 4 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.920 right right, I mean you may not even know what I was talking 5 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:24.480 about just that, right. No, we've heard a lot about how it 6 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:28.239 can be difficult and challenging to handle when everything you thought you knew about yourself 7 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.079 and your reality gets turned upside down. Well, then how do you do 8 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:36.280 it and hold on a successful physical life that others might not understand or even 9 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:40.840 accept some of the changes that you're undergoing. That's tricky. It is tricky. 10 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.320 Well, if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that 11 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:49.119 this is a reality that you find yourself struggling with, and that this is 12 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:53.479 the episode you may have been waiting for all along, because today we're talking 13 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:57.119 with an expert in helping people transition from the three D to five D n 14 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.280 way beyond. Need help getting a grip and stay tune, because by the 15 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.040 end of this show, you're gonna know just what you need to do to 16 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:10.599 handle and integrate your spiritual transformation, into your career or into your current life. 17 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:15.319 The Skeptic met Physicians starts now. My name is Will and I'm Garous, 18 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.799 and unlike moulderin Scully, both want to believe. So we've embarked in 19 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:23.560 a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:27.040 metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined 21 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.840 a coven of witches and wait, you joined a coven yep, all on 22 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.920 the interest of finding something, anything, that will prove that there's something beyond 23 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.879 this physical, three dimensional world we all live in. This is the Skeptic 24 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:56.239 Metaphysicians. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another thought provoking episode of the Skeptic 25 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.280 Metaphysicians podcast. I'm Will and I'mcarous, and today we have the honor of 26 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:06.319 hosting a distinguished guest, Illuminary at the intersection of skepticism and metaphysical exploration. 27 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:12.199 She's a veteran in the realm of spiritual transformations and integration, having served as 28 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:17.560 the past president of the American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences. 29 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:23.280 Say that five times fast. Now. Her extensive background includes over a decade 30 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:30.199 of dedicated work supporting and guiding individuals who have undergone profound spiritual experiences, a 31 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:36.120 journey that commenced in her own childhood and has traversed with her into her adult 32 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:39.479 life. With the wealth of experience spanning decades, our guest expertise is deeply 33 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:46.199 rooted and not just a theoretical but the lived reality of spiritual encounters, enriching 34 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:51.240 her perspective with firsthand knowledge and empathetic understanding. I'm not going to say anything 35 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.919 else because i don't know if I'm making any sense at all. I'm just 36 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.199 gonna welp on the show. Elizabeth Sabbath, thanks so much for coming on 37 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.199 the show. Thanks so much for having me. Will and Karen, I'm 38 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.680 grateful to be here. We are thrilled to have you. This is a 39 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.840 topic that is near and dear to my heart for lots of different reasons. 40 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:14.840 But let's start at the very beginning. When we are talking about spiritual transformative 41 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:19.960 experiences, it covers a wide gamut. So what can we talk about in 42 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.879 that sense? Well, I like to call them so as you said, 43 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:30.840 there's a wide variety of experiences, but typically spiritually transformative experiences, or stes 44 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:39.960 for short, are a type of nonlinear, non ordinary experience that takes you 45 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:47.120 out of your inculturated worldview and gives you an opportunity to experience life differently. 46 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:54.560 And so there's a list of about one hundred and twenty six different types the 47 00:03:54.599 --> 00:04:00.840 Brown and researchers Brown and White identified approximately one hundred and twenty six types of 48 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:06.159 experiences in their research. Good god, wow, Now is that something like 49 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:10.639 when I was in college? It's friends of mine got stes all the time 50 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.719 and had to go get a pill to get a DIGG. Yet it has 51 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:21.800 begun same thing. Some people take pills for this. But yeah, yes, 52 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:26.800 so one hundred and twenty six are we talking about like a tap on 53 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.040 the shoulder? Are we talking about your life falling apart? I mean, 54 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.720 I assure yes, I would think all yeah, potentially all of the above. 55 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:43.160 There's so many different types. Anything from a mystical experience where you experience 56 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.759 after death communication maybe your dead grandmother sits on your bed in the middle of 57 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:51.959 the night and scares you wants to talk to you right, an out of 58 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:58.800 body experience in your death experience, a crisis of psychic opening, which could 59 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:03.120 be Claire audience, sentience clear ten gingency. I can never say that word 60 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:09.439 where you pick up an item and you just know something about the person that 61 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:15.680 had that owned that object. But any exceptional there could be called exceptional human 62 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:23.800 experiences, numinous experiences, luminous experiences, non ordinary, non linear states of 63 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:30.240 consciousness experiences. Okay, it could be a United state of consciousness experience where 64 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:32.959 you're just walking down the street mining your own business and bam, all of 65 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:39.279 the sudden, you experience oneness with everything around you. That's that's what happened, 66 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.480 Karen, That's what that's so. Yes, Yes, I'm so glad 67 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.079 that you brought this up, because I've got I've had flashes of that all 68 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.720 of a sudden, like oh my god, and it's been glorious, fantastic, 69 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:51.839 like I have not wanted to come out of it, but inevitably go 70 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:57.160 to sleep next morning. I'm like, what I say, it's like a 71 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.680 blackout after you're drinking all night long. Right, it's different. And I'm 72 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.800 sure a lot of people have run into those that are living in those experiences 73 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.519 on a prolonged basis and they're thinking, what is wrong with this guy, 74 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:11.120 right, So this is kind of what we're talking about now. Well, 75 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:16.639 they can happen spontaneously in a very split second, or they can be prolonged. 76 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:23.120 They can last minutes or hours or days or weeks or months. Are 77 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.920 these things that you can kind of help to happen, Like, if you 78 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:28.920 want to have those experiences, there's something you can do. Are there's some 79 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.920 steps to take? No, she said there was a pill for it. 80 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:38.040 I think that was after when it happens excitedly. Well, these experiences happen 81 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.839 in all types of ways. They can happen because of illness. Women can 82 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.279 have them during childbirth. Childbirth can bring these on an accident. They can 83 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:54.240 come in dreams, they can come through meditation practices, yoga practices. They 84 00:06:54.240 --> 00:07:00.959 can come through for absolutely no reason, apparently no reason at all, trauma. 85 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:05.879 So then sometimes things like that can be wonderful, and it has been 86 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.920 wonderful for a lot of folks. But there are some people, and we've 87 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:12.319 talked to a few of them, that they thought they were going crazy or 88 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:17.040 their lives, and so you actually are an expert at helping people get a 89 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.720 grip for lack of a better word, Right, so how can someone integrate 90 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:28.399 this sudden awareness expansion into their daily life. It depends on where they're at 91 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:33.480 when they come looking for help. Sometimes people go to mental health professionals who 92 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:40.879 are not trained in identifying or differential diagnosis between psychosis and spiritual emergence and emergency, 93 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:46.480 which there are DSM codes for spiritual and religious problems, and there is 94 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:53.240 research literature around this, but it's not a requirement for mental health professionals to 95 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:57.560 get licensed, so they don't get trained in it as of yet. There's 96 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.199 one university, a Rutgers University, which is in the process of integrating this 97 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:09.360 information into their educational process. Are you saying you saying that this is a 98 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:16.839 clinically accepted experience. Yeah, no, so in some clinical settings with people 99 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.959 who've been trained by it who want to be trained. And that's what ASSIST 100 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.639 did the American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences. So we used 101 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:33.279 to host academic conferences to train mental health professionals and other helping professionals and to 102 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:39.279 get training on differential diagnosis. They're no longer doing those trainings, but we're 103 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.440 looking for other places. I'm looking for other places to host that training so 104 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:50.679 I can organize more academic conferences because it's not happening at the collegiate level. 105 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.559 They're not getting trained. But you said that there are codes for that, 106 00:08:54.039 --> 00:09:00.320 there's a diagnostic code in the DSM. Yes, that's that's kind of eye 107 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:05.000 opening. When you I mean to have a code, a diagnosis code, 108 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:11.159 you have to accept that there is something to code for. Yeah, and 109 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:18.200 right now it's the problem is Yale University has just finished They've done two studies 110 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:22.919 on hearing voices and how why is it? How is it possible that some 111 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.600 people hear voices and they can manage it fine, and they go on their 112 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.679 daily life like, oh yeah, heard from my grandmother, Oh yeah, 113 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.000 an angel told me this, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit of whoever. 114 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:37.840 Okay, I'm going to go do that now. And they go on and 115 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.080 they do it and they're fine. And why do other people hear voices that 116 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:46.159 cause problems that that they can't handle and they can't make it stop. When 117 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.519 Harvard is looking at this, are they thinking, I think it's Yale I 118 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.080 was looking at this. Are they looking in the direction of like these are 119 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.200 they're communicating with other people or are they just considering all of these a form 120 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:01.120 of psychoses. That was one of my little problems with the first research is 121 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:07.639 because it's about hallucinations hearing voices. And when I talked to the researchers about 122 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:13.279 that as an advisory person, you know, on their advisory committee, I 123 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.840 was like, my people are not going to be happy participating in this study. 124 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:24.240 They were looking for research participants because you're using the term hallucination and they 125 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.519 don't believe that they're hallucinating. And they said, yeah, we understand that, 126 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:33.000 and we have to do the basic research first, so that in using 127 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:37.000 the academic language that the current academic standard is going to accept. And when 128 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.320 I've read the first when I read the first research article, I still had 129 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.200 a bit of a problem with it as somebody who has heard voices myself. 130 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.840 And at the same time it's foundational and it's really important to help people stay 131 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:58.200 safe because as we know, there are people who hear voices and then go 132 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.000 out and kill people. Yeah, or they're tormented by these voices and they 133 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:09.000 can't make them stop, and they're not just talking to somebody a loved one 134 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.480 or relative on the other side that they can hear in a form of after 135 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:18.879 death communication and it's comforting and nurturing. So they do have to make sure 136 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.519 that they are the medical community and the mental health community is causing no harm. 137 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.360 They are responsible if they put somebody on the street who could potentially cause 138 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.440 harm. So they have to start with this baseline to know the difference. 139 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:39.919 And the premise of the research is what can we learn from people who hear 140 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.799 voices and are fine with it and who can control it voluntarily that we can 141 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.919 use to support people who cannot. And so the foundation of the research I 142 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.960 felt was very respectful and I think it will go a long way to further 143 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.000 research as to is it this kind of voice or is it that kind of 144 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.399 voice? And it's not looking at where is this voice coming from, or 145 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:05.159 they're not attempting to validate where the voice is coming from in that particular research. 146 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:13.720 Anyway, mainstreaming this type of understanding about spiritually transformative experiences, it's very, 147 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.960 very difficult. There's an organization called the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium which is 148 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:26.000 looking actively looking for funding and fundraising for research and for emergent phenomenon and to 149 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:33.360 understand it and to build towards the body of research that would contribute to differential 150 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:39.879 diagnosis and proper care and integration for people who've had these experiences and are asking 151 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.480 that question, Am I crazy? Am I okay? Is this what am 152 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.600 I supposed to do with that? And what was this organization? Again? 153 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:56.240 The EPRC, the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium, It's THEEPRC dot org. Perfect, 154 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.840 That's what I was looking for. This is an organization of global research 155 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.120 that are coming together to share their work and to make connections and to take 156 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.679 a look at what's currently happening in the research world concerning emergent phenomenology. It's 157 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:18.080 multidisciplinary. There are researchers and practitioners and even people like myself that show up 158 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.279 to the meetings that are from all different disciplines that are contributing to somebody of 159 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:28.679 knowledge. There are very limited places where somebody who's asking these questions can go. 160 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.879 ASSIST has a online forum that's very well moderated, and so they could 161 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.960 go to assist dot org and click on the tab to be let into the 162 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.960 forum. And that is a peer led forum, but they're very well trained 163 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.679 peers that are moderating that. So right now, the majority of the help 164 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.960 out there is peer led and groups that you can find in abundance of on 165 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.639 Facebook. Well, then let's get back to the experiences themselves. I'm sure 166 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.080 there are some that are much more difficult to integriate than others. Do you 167 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.200 have an idea of what someone should be looking out for. It could be 168 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:13.559 any experience that creates an ontological shock. If I have a specific worldview that 169 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:18.559 everything I see is real and solid, and all of a sudden, I 170 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:24.799 have an experience of somebody walking through the room coming to see me right like 171 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:30.240 a somebody on the other side, or if I think that's demonic, if 172 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.759 my religious upbring has taught me that that contact is bad, and here it 173 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.559 is with me, that could be very difficult. For others, it wouldn't 174 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:43.159 be very difficult at all, right, right, Dark spiritual experiences are the 175 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:50.639 most difficult for people to integrate, and then the ones that are the farthest 176 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.960 away from their current belief system, worldview, or godview are the most difficult 177 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:01.759 to integrate because not all experiences are all sunlight, butterflies and unified at the 178 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.960 heart center. Yes, yes they are. I'm going to keep telling myself 179 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.919 that until it happens, we create all reality. Dammit. Yeah all right, 180 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.279 that's what I thought too, until I went to hell. Oh wow, 181 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.559 okay, So did you have an NDE or is it just like you 182 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.200 just decided to take a trip. No. One of my funky gifts is 183 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:31.919 to support people in transitioning from this life to the next. So sometimes I 184 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.519 get called out of my body to do that. It's almost like there's a 185 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:41.240 signal and my soul leaves the body. So weird alert, really wow, 186 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.240 crazy woa woe alert. So people may not believe this, So just saying 187 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.759 it's not what I really talk about. But you saying that was like, 188 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.960 yep, I know, I know that. One Okay, So I'm in 189 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.960 the hospital, I'm in my living room and then I can't all of a 190 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.159 sudden, I'm just completely inundated with fatigue. I can't even sit up. 191 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:04.720 I had to lay down and had no presence of tiredness prior to that. 192 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.759 And then the next thing I know, I'm out of my body and being 193 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:11.759 pulled out of my body, and I'm in a hospital room up in the 194 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:18.080 corner of the room and somebody is dying. A man was dying in an 195 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:23.120 ICU by himself, and he was very angry and bitter, and he was 196 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.279 saying to himself, Man, nobody's ever given me a break. Life is 197 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.480 sucked. Now I'm dying here by myself, and I have to go to 198 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:34.080 Hell. And this is such an unfair life. I don't even know why 199 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:38.480 God made me, know what was the purpose of my life. And so 200 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:44.240 the next thing I know, I'm with him as where I called it the 201 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.320 upper reaches of Hell, which I didn't even believe in. Personally, I'm 202 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.720 a student of a course of miracles and a student of a different kind of 203 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:59.679 Jesus than what I was taught as a child, and so this, first 204 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:03.119 of all, was quite terrifying. I mean, I've worked with people on 205 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:07.759 the other side and assisted them in transitioning from the earthplane before. This was 206 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:15.039 quite different. So I'm standing at this place which looked pretty hell like that 207 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.440 I didn't even believe in. Well, you could almost say it was hellish. 208 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.200 Yeah, it was hellish, and I couldn't I couldn't move. I 209 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.759 was terrified. I didn't even want to turn my head. I just looked 210 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.720 at my periphery. Okay, so it was was it the flames in Inferno 211 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.279 and Pitchfork, the kind of the thing, kind of hell was it was. 212 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:42.960 I actually had an experience of eternal condemnation and eternal hopelessness. And you 213 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.599 know, it's not like the movies where they were like please, It wasn't 214 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:51.920 that level. It was the level where they couldn't even lift their arms. 215 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.640 They couldn't even lift their arms to say help me. They didn't even have 216 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.079 the belief in them that they could ask for help. They were no longer 217 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:07.039 even seeking help because they didn't believe it was available. I'm freaking out. 218 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:15.720 All I can see is an uncountable number of souls standing before me in this 219 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:23.680 experience of absolutely eternal hopelessness. It was a bit. It was so bad. 220 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:30.400 You know how people I've listened to countless NDE experiences where people talk about 221 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.519 how good it is and they can't explain it. This was the opposite. 222 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.759 So I started and I'm screaming at them like, no, no, no, 223 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.599 y'all have been lied to. This isn't real. This is an illusion. 224 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.119 You know, you need to wake up. You don't have to be 225 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:52.880 here like you've been lied to. And I fell being pulled down like quicksand 226 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.720 and I couldn't get out, and so I was like, oh, geez, 227 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.519 I know you don't want me here, but I can't get out by 228 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:06.000 myself. I need your help, and like that, backup out of it 229 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.519 and back into my body in the living room and function for three days. 230 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:17.680 Took three days for me to get my body to stop shaking and to try 231 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.079 and figure out what happened. And I went to my favorite coffee shop for 232 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.640 three days, all day from open to clothes, reading my Course of Miracles 233 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.000 book, trying to figure out what the heck happened, right, because nothing 234 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:38.480 spells relief like caffeinician. That's right, that's right, and the local bookstore 235 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:45.000 run by your local Buddhist. Right, coffee shop run by jo Buddhist. 236 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:51.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know that took three days and to 237 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.400 integrate, but only three days because the coffee shop owner came by and it 238 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.240 was a long story I won't get into, but she said, oh, 239 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:06.839 you went to hell. How sweet? You know, when what the Buddha 240 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.200 says about hell, if you find yourself in hell, you're there to mind 241 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.920 Jules and I looked at her like she was crazy, but it gave me 242 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:21.599 that new perspective to look at you know, instead of being stuck in Why 243 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.960 did this happen to me? Am I crazy? Oh, here's a different 244 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.880 perspective. I can take this in and look at it differently. And what 245 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.680 did I What could I have learned from that? And I did? I 246 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.319 learned a lot. But it was very difficult. So for what other people? 247 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.400 Would it have taken three days or would have taken longer? No one 248 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.160 knows the answer to that question. It's based on your capacity that the integration 249 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:49.000 process is based on your capacity to take in new information and give yourself permission 250 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.839 to explore it. It's when we reject this new information that it takes longer 251 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.599 to integrate. Was this your first kind of opportunity or I guess with helping 252 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.640 transition someone? No, okay, because I was just thinking, you know, 253 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.160 Will was saying, we created on reality, and you know you believe 254 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.720 in hell or not believe in Helen. I was just thinking, what if 255 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.319 this man's hell was so strong that he kind of sucked you into his reality? 256 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.480 Would that be a possibility. That is an excellent question. We'll ask 257 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:37.000 you to answer that for us. Right after this, we're back to the 258 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.000 skeptic metaphysician. But before we get back to the interview. I wanted to 259 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.319 share a new five star review that came to us via Apple Podcasts. Subject 260 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.160 line of the review reads a great podcast, and the review says I've only 261 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.319 recently started listening. It was through a recommendation and I'm so grateful for it. 262 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.839 I love the honesty in your conversations and you're down to earth humor. 263 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.160 Thank you and then put a star answerm J and D from the UK. 264 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:04.920 Well, jn D, thank you so much for taking the time to let 265 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.839 us know how much you're enjoying the show. We're thrilled to hear from those 266 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.279 whether you like to show or not one word or the other, we'd love 267 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:18.319 to hear your thoughts and J and D thank you for doing just And if 268 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.119 you'd like to hear your review D on the air, please feel free to 269 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.200 go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review there. It doesn't matter whether 270 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.799 it's a five star, a four star, or three star, any kind 271 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:29.640 of star. We would just love to hear from you. We're always trying 272 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.519 to get better and the best way to do that is to do so by 273 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.119 learning from the people that we are doing the show for. That's you. 274 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:44.359 Okay, let's get back to the show, okay, because I was just 275 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:45.880 thinking, you know, Will was saying, we created on reality, and 276 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.519 you know, you can believe in hell or not believe in Helen. I 277 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.960 was just thinking, what if this man's hell was so strong that he kind 278 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.359 of sucked you into his reality. Would that be a possibility. Absolutely. 279 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:02.200 I mean, when you work with people on the other side, you have 280 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.119 to go into their reality to rescue them out of it, all right, 281 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.359 So then if that's the case, then maybe there doesn't have to be a 282 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.759 hell. Well I kind of see it like what dreams may come right the 283 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:17.920 movie where we all create our own afterlife. So this person obviously believed in 284 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.200 hell, and this was the hell he believed in, or he thought he 285 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:22.839 was going to go to, because Elizabeth, you said right as you were 286 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.880 mentioning him that he was saying, I don't know why God made me. 287 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.119 Now I've got to go to hell. That kind of thing. He already 288 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.480 had that in mind. In his mind. It was his beliefing over right, 289 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.599 So it's passing over. You experienced his version of the afterlife. So 290 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:41.759 that's just another example of how important it is to solidify what your beliefs are 291 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.640 and to not take it flippantly, but think positive thoughts, right, because 292 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:51.160 who wants to go to hell for God's sakes? Yeah? Nobody. And 293 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:56.119 do you know doctor Nathan Castle. He is a Catholic priest who also helps 294 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:02.680 people transition lost souls transition. I was visiting with him and we both agree 295 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.039 that the most important thing anybody in a helping profession can do, or anybody 296 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:14.400 who loves anybody, is to help them recognize how beautiful they are, and 297 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:18.200 how lovable they are, and how worthy they are, and that any mistakes 298 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:25.759 that we make are mistakes from a lack of understanding or experience and not worth 299 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.920 being condemned for. There is nothing more important, I think, personally than 300 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:37.359 helping people receive as much love as possible before they leave this earth, because 301 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:45.960 that will ensure a safe transition from this life to the next. So then 302 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:51.440 I know that we had talked earlier about you go through these experiences and you 303 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.680 already having a hard time handling it, But then you throw in the fact 304 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.680 that we have to we have to live, we have to work, we 305 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.920 have to as a family, we have to keep going with our lives. 306 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:08.440 And everybody knows it's getting better. But when someone said to you sometimes in 307 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.400 the past, hey I'm hearing voices, you immediately get put in a straight 308 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.119 jacket. So how does someone who's having these experiences, how do you manage 309 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:22.960 to integrate that into your daily life without seeming like you're a loon. Well, 310 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.039 the first thing is to find someone who understands you, specifically with hearing 311 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:34.119 voices. There's an organization called the Hearing Voices Network who has a very strong 312 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:41.480 support system of people who do hear voices. And it's very important when you 313 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:47.440 share your experiences that you know who to share them with. If you already 314 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:53.440 know that your experience is going to maybe freak someone out, freak some make 315 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.200 them concerned that you're talking to the devil or going to hell, you might 316 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:03.079 want to talk to somebody else that has some experience with them. And it 317 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:08.799 depends so in a light filled spiritual experience. With a light filled spiritual experience, 318 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:14.119 so many times people are filled so full of love and life they want 319 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.319 to share it with everybody, and they're so enthusiastic about it that they're sharing 320 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.240 it with people who can't relate. And then you experience that let down or 321 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.839 that disappointment where you feel ostracized. But what I suggest to people is that 322 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:33.279 first they have compassion for the people who have not had the experience instead of 323 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.920 expecting to go to a well full of water and get a drink. But 324 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.319 if that person hasn't had your experience, then they can't meet you there, 325 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:47.200 and if it's outside of their worldview, you can expect resistance. So first 326 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:52.000 to find people who can understand that you've had some form of nonlinear, non 327 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.480 ordinary experience. There go buy so many different names. People don't even like 328 00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:02.279 the word spiritual anymore, right, So they could be a transcendent experience or 329 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:10.160 a non ordinary experience. And there are therapists now that are trained or who 330 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:15.759 work with non ordinary states, and coaches and spiritual guidance directors. So looking 331 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:19.799 for a spiritual guidance director in your specific faith tradition to help you work things 332 00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:25.519 out could be a safer person to talk to you than perhaps a therapist to 333 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.960 begin with that hasn't been trained, Yeah, because they might try to help 334 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:32.759 fix you. So you're not hearing the voices, but what are there are 335 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:37.480 important voices that you need to hear, that's right, yeah, And working 336 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.279 with these, you know, is the voice coming from you, from your 337 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:47.079 psyche, in your subconscious or your higher self. Is it coming from the 338 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.319 light or is it coming with a flavor of darkness towards it? And that 339 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.799 even flavor of darkness could be within yourself as well, teasing out is it 340 00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:59.200 light, is it dark? Is it heavy? Is it light? What 341 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.359 is the attention? And it's important to talk about these kinds of things with 342 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.759 the right folks because a lot of times, if you do have these experiences 343 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.960 and you start opening up bottom and get negative feedback, that then tends to 344 00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:17.480 get you to close up even more. For example, we all know that 345 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:23.400 evolving spiritually transcend this reality is what we're all trying to achieve in one way 346 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:27.039 or another, everyone in this space in a new age, your new thought 347 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:32.119 space, or whatever we're talking about here. Everything we've heard about is that 348 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:36.240 this is a positive step forward. This is the next evolution of mankind is 349 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:40.039 into in this direction. So if we are doing that and all suddenly we 350 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.960 take a little baby step into this world and we get slapped back, that 351 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.119 might shut down any future experiences that would then prevent you from moving where you 352 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:55.160 need to go. So it's really important to really do this discerningly, so 353 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.880 that so that you don't close yourself off because it it like we talk many 354 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.920 times, you're not going crazy. This is perfectly natural and normal stuff. 355 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.359 Its just not everybody is at the level that which you are. There's no 356 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.799 need to convince anyone of anything, because you're not going to be able to 357 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.640 do anyway. That's right. You can't convince somebody who hasn't had the experience. 358 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:22.480 And it is natural and normal for an evolving consciousness to start losing touch 359 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:30.440 with Newtonian paradigm physics and to be experiencing something beyond the ordinary, what we 360 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.160 would call the ordinary in the three D. And so one of the questions 361 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:38.960 people ask is why is this happening? Why me? And if it wasn't 362 00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:45.279 childbirth or a trauma or in your death experience, and even those things, 363 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.799 I say, because your soul is ripe, Your soul is ready to be 364 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:56.519 expanded beyond your unculturated identity. And the benefit even though it's very challenging and 365 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.640 can be scary, and you can lose relationships and people do lose many relationships 366 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:06.880 because of it, it's a natural, normal part of your consciousness expanding and 367 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.200 all sorts of things are going to happen some very challenging things where you may 368 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:17.799 have karma arise different which is just more learning and in the purification process of 369 00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:26.079 having our inculturated identity purified, that means we're also purifying our concepts about unworthiness 370 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.440 and sin and disempowerment, right, and those things are very challenging to deal 371 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:37.480 with. There's so many different directions that we can go, but I definitely 372 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.279 add one of the things that when doing research on you before we came on 373 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:47.319 the show, one of the things that caught my attention was your thoughts on 374 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:53.119 plant medicine because there's a big question mark. Some people believe that plant medicine 375 00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:00.559 is actually helps with expanding your consciousness and taking the necessary evolution or step and 376 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.240 things like that, but then there's other factions that talk about plant medicine being 377 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:10.799 a crutch that maybe it's not exactly what people are saying that it is. 378 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:15.480 So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, So, just 379 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.799 like anything else, psychedelics can become a crutch. Meditation because all spiritual practice 380 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:26.680 can become a crutch. We call that spiritual bypassing. Okay, that means 381 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:34.519 when we are ignoring the attending to the normal needs of human life, or 382 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.559 spiritualizing something to not look at it, to not deal with it. I 383 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.519 just want to say that, so anything can become a crutch. Okay, 384 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.839 there's a big debate. Should you engage in psychedelics to expand your consciousness and 385 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:55.960 to advance spiritually. Will it help you if it doesn't break your consciousness? 386 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.319 First? Right? Right? And that's I'm afraid of. Well, if 387 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:07.039 you have good integration support and you have a really good trip sitter or someone 388 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:13.680 who's been trained in shamanism that knows what they're doing and knows how to hold 389 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.119 space for it, to not allow anything else in the space to attach to 390 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:22.400 you, and knows if there's something rising up within you, how to allow 391 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:28.960 that space and support it while it's arising and proper post session, you know, 392 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:35.559 post integration sessions. Then it's the risk of being so broken that you 393 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.759 can't be put back to get there again. It's greatly reduced. Psychedelics are 394 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.240 here. They're back, and I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to 395 00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:49.519 see it coming, you know, instead of being something that the old I'm 396 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:54.839 saying stoners in quotation marks very lovingly and respectfully, Okay, that it's being 397 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.799 taken out of the basement or the backyard or whatever and being brought into a 398 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.079 cultural space where we can look at the benefit of it, where the experience 399 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.680 itself can be supported. And that's the wonderful benefit and the healing, the 400 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:17.240 amazing healing of the mind and the spirit that happens with proper ceremony. It's 401 00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:23.640 absolutely incredible, the suffering that can be eradicated. It's amazing. Not to 402 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:29.559 throw stones at it at all. And there are lots of research that are 403 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:32.839 being done now that are finding it's actually they're continuing now the research up our 404 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:38.640 big gap now that they're finding that a single session of MDMA for example, 405 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:45.559 or cilocybin will help cure PTSD's not even to ease the symptoms, but rather 406 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:52.160 they're finding that a single single session could have a completely life changing effect on 407 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:57.079 someone who's suffering. So that's that's remarkable. The question is you hear back 408 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.000 in the day, right, if you did six drops of acid or more, 409 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.119 are you're going to go in thing? Right? So I assume that 410 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:06.839 that kind of thought, like you said, anything in everything, moderation, 411 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.599 anything has abused. It's going to become a problem, so it's important to 412 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:14.480 do it with a proper facilitar. Ay, you say, but you do 413 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:20.719 believe then that there is a place for these psychedelics in a spiritual pursuit. 414 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.719 Is that right? Yes? And so I'm kind of old school in the 415 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.400 fact that I think that you have to what are you being devoted to? 416 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:35.840 There has to be devotion, but what are you devoted to? Truth, 417 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:42.239 beauty, love, creator? Are you devoted to these in a way that 418 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.880 you're attempting to do your best to live from these principles? The devotion to 419 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:52.360 these principles first, that has to be there. But the reality is is 420 00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:00.880 for some people they can't get there without having a strong pattern interrupt and what 421 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:07.159 the psychedelics do is it interrupts a pattern. So somebody can do nothing but 422 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.760 prayer. Development of their personality it has to be spiritual. Develop needs to 423 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:20.880 be psychological and have the spiritual devotion component in order to be balanced, because 424 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:27.280 if you skip the psychological development and go just total into spiritual, then you're 425 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.320 going to have to at some point come back and pick up the psychological development 426 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:36.639 that you've missed out on. And if you're all intellect and all psychological development 427 00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.880 with no spirit. At some point you'll get confronted with that if it's your 428 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:45.400 lifetime for that. Okay. So part of the problem is is that people 429 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:51.960 are doing psychedelics, they're doing meditation, they're doing all sorts of devotional practices 430 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:58.360 without having attended to their trauma or their hatred or their resentment, or their 431 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:02.800 guilt or their shame. And then they come to these practices and they're so 432 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:10.880 blown open and can see that. And afterwards, because whether it's through a 433 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:19.960 spiritually transformative experience that happens spontaneously or an intentional psychedelic experience, is you start 434 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.400 becoming a different person. And that different person if you have a lot of 435 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:27.960 that stuff, you know, a lot of hidden guilt and shame, that 436 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:31.480 stuff starts to arise now that your consciousness has expanded a little bit and you're 437 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:37.679 recognizing, like, oh my god, who was I before? Oh my 438 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.760 god, I can't believe I did that. I was a horrible person. 439 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:45.119 Now I have to be with that. And that's been the hardest thing I've 440 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:50.199 had to work with with people in integrating, is they become awake to their 441 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:54.440 own behavior that they are now ashamed of. And feel guilty for and they 442 00:36:54.440 --> 00:37:00.840 don't know how to forgive themselves. It becomes less of forgiving others and more 443 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.679 of a challenge to forgive themselves. Elizabeth, you and I are going to 444 00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:08.880 have a conversation after this is okay. Well, it's interesting though, because 445 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:13.960 a lot of people turn to these practices because they have all of these issues 446 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:15.679 and the traumas you know, and their childhood or whatever, and they're thinking 447 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.320 this can help them. But what you're saying is they actually need to deal 448 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.000 with that first before coming into these practices. It's best you'll have a less 449 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:29.559 challenging post integration if you deal with this first. But we see, we're 450 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:35.000 just not talking about this as a society. We're just you know, mental 451 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.360 health. I'm fifty eight. Mental health was not a social and cultural topic. 452 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:43.800 We didn't talk about our therapist at the dinner table like you know, 453 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:46.320 oh I love my therapist. No, we didn't do that. I do, 454 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:51.960 by the way, it is, I love her too, hi, 455 00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:58.400 doctor Jones. Yeah. And so this is the problem with people who go 456 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:02.079 on like long vipastna retreats, you know, ten days silent meditation retreats, 457 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:09.239 is they sometimes go into psychosis during or after, because I talk about the 458 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:14.920 process of strengthening the container of your consciousness, that the most important thing you 459 00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:20.719 can do before engaging in any spiritual practice is to strengthen the container of your 460 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.960 consciousness. So what that means to me is that you have a practice of 461 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:31.800 paying attention to what's arising in your emotions and in your thoughts and determining how 462 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:37.000 is this thought or this emotion. You know, what information is being presented 463 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:43.440 to me? What is this information informing me of that I need to attend 464 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:50.039 to right now? As opposed to this emotion means something bad, you know, 465 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:57.320 attending to our shadows. And we should make a definitive distinction about what 466 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:01.079 we're talking about. There are a faction of those that use this type of 467 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:07.159 thing for an escape or recreation. Right, you drop a tab of acid 468 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:07.920 because you want to, You don't, you don't think about the world, 469 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.920 and you who right, You're you're having fun or you're you're doing mushrooms and 470 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.119 let's go how the moon. That kind of thing we're talking about very specific 471 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:22.960 ritualistic reasons for and intentions when you are undergoing these journeys. For lack of 472 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:27.320 a better word, it's important to have that. We're not condoning a recreational 473 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.639 use of mushrooms, for example, orything like that. This is more about 474 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:36.360 once you're ready to take that next step. If you're stuck, this might 475 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:38.920 be able to help you, but do it in the right way. It 476 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:45.360 might be if you are going to a trip sitter who has been trained in 477 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:52.760 how to hold safe space and safe ceremony and how to support you in lifting 478 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.719 out what is arising out of you? Should you need support if the medicine 479 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.239 isn't doing it itself right, So Johnny down the block who has a bag 480 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:05.679 of t rooms in his pocket does not a good trip sit or make no, 481 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:10.480 no, no, I've worked with young people who've done that and whose 482 00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:15.719 whole life was blown apart and could no longer fit into their society because and 483 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:20.239 I won't share their stories here because they don't have permission, who no longer 484 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:23.480 fit in They could no longer be and they couldn't go hang out with the 485 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.960 guys and drink beer anymore. They couldn't, you know, just try to 486 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.639 have sex with every girl that would get in bed with them. They just 487 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.440 couldn't do those things anymore. And so what I want to say about this 488 00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.280 is is that if anybody's listening to this, it's interested in psychedelics, and 489 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:44.400 you have access to the medicine because it is sacred medicine. Okay, But 490 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:49.840 to remember that these plants came the use of these plants. We came to 491 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:54.760 know about the use of these plants through medicine men and women of tribal cultures 492 00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:00.280 all over the world, and they are medicine to be respected, to be 493 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:07.840 used appropriately in sacred tradition. There's a diet that you have to do for 494 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.480 six to ten days. There's a purification process that you have to put the 495 00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:15.000 body through or I could kill you. Oh wow. And then you must 496 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:20.239 meditate every day. Like with ayahuasca, you must meditate every single day for 497 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:24.119 ten days before you drink the medicine with the shama. When you meditate with 498 00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:31.199 the plant spirit, you're connecting to the essence of the benefit of that medicine 499 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:37.159 and you take your challenge or your trauma, or your physical ailment, or 500 00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:42.960 your relationship problem, whatever that is. You take that to that plant spirit 501 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:49.079 and you say, please, here is my dilemma. Please help me, 502 00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:54.840 And it's a supplication to the divine nature of that medicine. Gosh, there's 503 00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:59.639 so much that we could dive into and talk about, but I definitely wanted 504 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.800 to talk about the fact that on your website you give classes, you help 505 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.840 folks, and it's not just you. We have a few facilitators that what 506 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:12.920 would help people integrate these kinds of things into their life. If someone wanted 507 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:16.519 to get better at it, you would recommend go to your website and reach 508 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:22.280 out to you there to get better. Yes, integrating, yeah, integrating 509 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:28.960 the experience. Yes, I'm actually graduating a new group of spiritual integration coaches 510 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:35.440 in December. Actually we'll have five more coaches on the roster. So yes, 511 00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:39.800 I do have people that can support people and integration, whether it's psychedelics 512 00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.639 or any other experience. That's great. So then whether you are looking for 513 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:51.440 help or you want to help others, that might be a good resource for 514 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.599 you. Absolutely, I'm right. Well, Elizabeth, this has been wonderful. 515 00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:59.360 Thank you so much for coming and sharing your expertise with us, sharing 516 00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.519 space with us, and we're going to add direct links to your website and 517 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:05.079 social media on our show notes. So all you need to do is go 518 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:07.760 to Skepticmanaphasician dot com go to her episode page. You'll see all those links 519 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.079 late in there directly for you, so it makes it super easy to get 520 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:14.599 connected with Elizabeth. Once again, thank you so much for coming on. 521 00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:16.639 It's been wonderful. It has been Thank you so much for having me, 522 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:22.199 and a huge thank you to you. We know that there are tons of 523 00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:24.679 options out there, and having you decide to come along on our journey of 524 00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:30.000 discovery with us is an absolute honor for us. We hope you've enjoyed this 525 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.159 conversation as much as we have. If you did and you feel called to 526 00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:37.320 give back, we invite you to visit our website at Skepticmanaphysition dot com, 527 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.519 where you can donate to the show or subscribe as a member through our buy 528 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.519 me a Coffee campaign. Your support will go a long way towards allowing Karen 529 00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:50.519 and I to bring you these wonderful conversations and teachings in more and more robust 530 00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:52.559 ways. Well, that's all for now. We will see you on the 531 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:58.079 next episode of The Skeptic Metaphysician. Until then, take care,