1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:49,640 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:54,719 Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we are joined today by Kathy Kleiner Rubin, 11 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,920 who is here to talk to us about her new book, A Light 12 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:02,359 in the Dark, Surviving More Than Ted Bundy. Kathy, thank you so 13 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:06,079 much for joining us. We are thrilled to have you. Thank you very 14 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:08,879 much for inviting me to come on. I'm not sure the two of us 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:14,879 have ever been more excited to have a guest on because we are both such 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:21,200 big fans of you personally and professionally. Thank you very much. It's nice 17 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:23,640 for our listeners who may not know who you are. Can you tell us 18 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,280 just a little bit of background about yourself. I was born in Miami and 19 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:33,959 I lived there for a number of years, and I consider myself a serial 20 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,719 survivor. Over the years, I've had childhood lupus, and I was in 21 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:45,439 seventh grade at that point. Then I was attacked by serial killer Ted Bundy, 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,280 and then I've gone through breast cancer stage two, breast cancer mesdectomy. 23 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:55,400 That's who I am in a nutshell. But my stories are very different than 24 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,760 just saying one sentence. I love that idea of being a serial survey that 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:06,120 takes bravery and that takes guts. Was it hard for you to sit and 26 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:10,879 write about surviving all of these things? It was a roller coaster of emotions 27 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,439 and love. It took me two and a half years to write it because 28 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:17,680 I wanted to get it right. I wanted to tell of myself, and 29 00:02:17,719 --> 00:02:23,479 I wanted to expose everything about me so that the readers did know who I 30 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,400 was and why I survived and why I persevered. I enjoyed writing it once 31 00:02:28,439 --> 00:02:30,280 I got into it. In the beginning, I was scared and nervous and 32 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:35,560 everything, but then it just started flowing. So how did you meet your 33 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:39,319 co writer, Emily LeBeau Lukes. How did the two of you get connected? 34 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:46,879 She actually emailed a mutual friend, Tory Telfer, who wrote the article 35 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,639 on me for Rolling Stone, And that was back in twenty eighteen, and 36 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:55,879 Emily contacted Tory and said, well, she's ever interested in telling her story. 37 00:02:57,439 --> 00:03:00,520 I would love love to talk with her, and here's my email address. 38 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,960 Have her call me or email me. And I think it was a 39 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:09,599 year later she talked to Tory again and said, Kathy never responded to me. 40 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,520 I'd really like to talk to her. So Tory got my attention, 41 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:20,680 and that's how Emily and I met. What made you decide that now now 42 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,000 is the time to tell your story about surviving all of these things, lupis 43 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,280 and cancer and Bundy. It was a right time now because I'm settled in 44 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:34,400 my mind, and my husband and I are very close together, and I 45 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:38,080 feel like I'm at a pause in my life that I can talk about what 46 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,039 happened. Every time I speak about all of this it helps heal me. 47 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,400 So I'm in a position now where my son's grown up and it's just my 48 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,439 husband and I and we just were in a good place, so I thought 49 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:53,120 it was finally time. That's actually something I was going to ask about, 50 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:54,439 but you went ahead and said it, So I'm going to follow you for 51 00:03:54,479 --> 00:03:59,240 a second. I've heard you say a couple of times that every time you 52 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:02,439 tell your story it helps to heal you. Can you expand a little bit 53 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:05,159 about that. I know there are plenty of people in your place who maybe 54 00:04:05,199 --> 00:04:10,719 wouldn't want to talk about it. I find that, especially with the attack, 55 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,680 I needed to know that it wasn't my fault and that I would get 56 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:19,680 through it because that's me, and my parents were there to help and family 57 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,600 were there to help me, and I didn't want too much too many people 58 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,519 around me. I knew this was my attack and it was my story. 59 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:31,160 And when people say I don't know what can I do for you, just 60 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:34,240 say, oh, can you move those flowers around? Just to give someone 61 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:40,040 something to do because everyone don't know what to do. I find it heals 62 00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:43,439 me because I feel good about the people around me, and I want to 63 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,000 heal them. So by talking about everything, it just puts a positive light 64 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:50,720 on what I've gone through, so they can feel better now. You and 65 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:55,000 I were on a panel together a Crime Can a couple of weeks ago, 66 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,680 and you mentioned this idea that you're telling the story and even retelling the story 67 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,279 is a healing process for you. And yet the people in the audience also 68 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:12,319 responded incredibly positively. Do you feel like there's something going on in terms of 69 00:05:12,439 --> 00:05:17,800 this exchange of your life experiences and inspiring people? I hope so. I 70 00:05:17,879 --> 00:05:21,199 know when I tell my story, I reach a lot of people on a 71 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,040 different level. Either they've been through trauma or they're going through it and they 72 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:30,000 can hear my story, and I hope it gives them strength because it's their 73 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:32,720 story too. They need to talk about it whomever will listen to them. 74 00:05:32,759 --> 00:05:38,759 The first day you're attacked or you're traumatized, you're a victim. The next 75 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,560 day you're a survivor, and you have to get that thought in your head 76 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:46,240 to do that on your own. There's people around seek help, but I 77 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,560 think people relate with me because of the breast cancer or just because of the 78 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,519 loopus, and of course for the Ted Bundy's attack. So I like touching 79 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:59,240 people on different levels and let them know they can get through anything. They 80 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,240 just have to do it themselves, but they can do it, and they 81 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,959 should seek help or whenever they need to. What is it like for you 82 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,759 to be in a room full of people who are waiting with baited breath to 83 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:15,519 hear your story. I remember the first time that you spoke at Crime Con 84 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:19,000 because nobody wanted to miss that session, and people were wall to wall, 85 00:06:19,199 --> 00:06:26,519 standing room only, and you could hear a pin drop. It was intense. 86 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,800 What is that like for you being up in front of a huge group 87 00:06:29,879 --> 00:06:32,959 of people like telling your story? I love it. I love it because 88 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,000 I try to connect with people. I try to look around the audience and 89 00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:41,279 I want to take them into my story. I don't want to just tell 90 00:06:41,319 --> 00:06:45,279 a story and just be a story to tell. I want people to be 91 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,120 drawn in, and when I talk about the sorty house and my bedroom and 92 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,879 everything, I want them to put themselves in the same place and walk through 93 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:56,879 it with me. Because each time, like the attack, I walk myself 94 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,959 into my room and after it was over, I got to see my room 95 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,759 before I left Tallahassee, I walked in and I got to see the room 96 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:09,040 the way it was messed up, and I knew this is what happened to 97 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:12,480 me, this is where it was, and I could relate that other people 98 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,079 have the other things they are going through. To see that many people at 99 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:18,759 one time just makes me feel good. And I just want to connect with 100 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,079 people. To see so many people, I really did hope I connected with 101 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,199 them. Do you get nervous? We've seen you in front of a thousand 102 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,040 people or more in these massive hotel ballrooms at crime con and other conferences, 103 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,920 and you seem completely comfortable up there. My knees shake when I first get 104 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:41,439 out there and I look around, and then I'm like, this is what 105 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,879 it's going to do. This is what I'm doing today. And I keep 106 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:48,319 my story in order so that the loopus and then the Bundy and then the 107 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,560 breast cancer, and I want to tell all my little thoughts in between, 108 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,879 the way I've recovered and recuperated in my own little way, and I think 109 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,319 that's important for people to hear your old at crime con. Now, this 110 00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:05,279 is was this your third crime conerlanda second? Okay? And then I know 111 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:11,079 you've also we say Savannah crimexpough, what is most interesting to you about these 112 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,600 mass gatherings of true crime fans. I find it interesting the people go there 113 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,680 for so many diverse reasons. They want to know true crime, or they 114 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,920 want to hear about ways of taking people down and discovering when a subject is 115 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,080 finally caught and going to be prosecuted. I think people want to hear all 116 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,519 these stories. They appreciate it. They want the knowledge of what goes on 117 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:41,120 behind scenes. I think, learn about the DNA and learn about other things 118 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,120 that they're interested in. So I think there's a lot of people there for 119 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:48,200 a lot of reasons. Kathy. When you and I first met, I 120 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,240 think it was in twenty nineteen at the ASOC conference, and ASOCK stands for 121 00:08:54,279 --> 00:09:00,720 the American Investigative Society of Cold Cases. I saw you speaking a couple of 122 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:07,320 hundred investigators, forensics experts. There were students there. Our mutual friend Cheryl 123 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,879 mac McCollum had reached out to me and she said, are you going to 124 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,480 ASAK, which was in Albany that year, and I said yes, this 125 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,639 is before COVID. She said, will you watch out for my friend Kathy 126 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,200 Kleiner And I said I'd be honored to, so I sought you out and 127 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:28,840 introduced myself. The day you were to speak, you marched yourself up onto 128 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,679 the stage and I hope you don't mind me saying this. You're very fatigue 129 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:37,480 and the podium was very tall, and then the stage was very tall. 130 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:41,679 You actually ended up stepping out from behind it so people could see you. 131 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:46,080 And then you proceeded to hold this entire room. And this is a tough 132 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:52,200 crowd. They were completely mesmerized by your conversation. You spoke for about forty 133 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,279 five minutes. You told your story and then this is the part that surprised 134 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,840 me. I was blown away by your story and covering moving through these challenges 135 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,440 lupis Ted Bundy being a breast cancer survivor, and it was very inspiring. 136 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:11,919 I was standing at the back of the room and you came and you stood 137 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,799 next to me, and you didn't look at me. You looked forward towards 138 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:16,879 the stage and they were setting up for the next speaker or whoever that was. 139 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,279 And you said, I've never done that before. And I said, 140 00:10:22,799 --> 00:10:28,039 never done what? Because remember I've just been blown away by this amazing magnetic 141 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:35,440 public speaker. You said, I've never spoken like that about my life and 142 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:39,720 I remember turning to you and just so shocked that you had never done this 143 00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:43,519 before, yet you seemed so natural. You did say gosh, I was 144 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,159 nervous at the beginning. And I said to you, as I've said that 145 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,000 many other public speakers, myself included, most of the nerves are in your 146 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,799 head. People really want to hear, especially someone like you. They really 147 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,080 want to hear what you have to say. But I was so amazed that 148 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:05,039 you were so good at it and so effective in telling your story, and 149 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,600 then to come back and stand there and not even look at me, just 150 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:13,879 say I never did that before. Has it gotten easier for you now in 151 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:20,720 the last four years since you first started speaking out publicly. I think so. 152 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,519 I've got a lot more confidence in me now, and I do go 153 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,840 out and each crowd gets larger and larger. And when I was at Crime 154 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:31,519 Con nineteen, they were like five hundred seats set up, but they were 155 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,000 standing up on the wall and sitting down on the floor, I remember, 156 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:39,639 and I enjoyed it. It was a smaller crowd and I could just see 157 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,480 everybody, and it was very emotional for me. It is my story and 158 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:46,639 I want people to know it and I don't want to just stand there and 159 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,279 not make sense. I want to give everybody everything I have. And like 160 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,919 I said, when I tell the story my life story, I walk through 161 00:11:56,039 --> 00:11:58,720 each section that I'm doing and talking about, and I'm putting myself there. 162 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,240 I want the people to come along my journey with me. One of the 163 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:07,919 best moments for Crime Con this year for me was when I was able to 164 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:15,200 introduce Jane Barroski to you. And Jane survived the Connecticut River Valley serial killer. 165 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:18,000 It was so moving and I can't talk about it too terribly much for 166 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,679 I'm gonna cry, but it was so incredibly moving to see how you just 167 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,960 embraced her and you were like, it's cool, Like you get it, 168 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:31,240 you understand because you've gone through it. How does it feel to you to 169 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,200 meet other survivors of violent crime, or people like Jane's survivors of other serial 170 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:41,159 killers. I find it healing for me to actually go to them and hug 171 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,000 them and feel their pain, not in a weird way, but just I 172 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:48,960 can hold them, and hopefully by holding them they hold me back. And 173 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:52,440 I think having been there or gone through trauma, people can get it that 174 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:56,919 way. I got so many people coming and hugging me. It was great. 175 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,960 It was just a good thing. And I think just relaying and sympathizingly 176 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,679 understanding what they've been through. As much as I hate to have to talk 177 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,279 about him, he is a subject of the book. So let's get into 178 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,279 the Bundy of it all. So first of all, can you tell us, 179 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,639 like, why do you think the American public is still so interested in 180 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:22,799 Bundy after all these years? Why do we even care about this guy anymore? 181 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,320 Do you have any insight into that. When he was in the courtroom 182 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:31,039 and the trial was going on, it was the first time or very second 183 00:13:31,039 --> 00:13:35,399 time or whatever the TV cameras were allowed in the courtroom, and his prisana 184 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,639 was exactly what he wanted people to see. He wasn't himself because he wasn't 185 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,960 anything special, but he wanted people to think he was. And I think 186 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:48,080 a lot of the young girls actually who went to the trial, there were 187 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,080 a lot that sat in the front room of the courtroom, and I just 188 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,519 didn't get it why they were there. And then I understood some of them 189 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,120 wanted to be oh, look he's next to me. Oh look he looked 190 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,720 me. Oh man, I think he could attack me and I'd love it, 191 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:05,720 And I'm like, what, you know, get a life, And 192 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,879 that's their thought at that time. And I think the other women that were 193 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:15,399 there were more of a I can fix him, I can make him better. 194 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,799 I should be here to talk to him or to hold him the mother 195 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:22,200 figure. So I think it was very diverse on how each of them felt. 196 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,080 The ones that were so excited I just didn't get. I think that 197 00:14:26,279 --> 00:14:31,919 started the mystique about him being a good looking guy, and that's what he 198 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,320 wanted people to see. He was very manipulative and he just he wanted them 199 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,759 to see who he wanted to be and whomever that was. A student, 200 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:45,240 which he never finished school. He fell out of law school, and he 201 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,519 was a candidate. He wanted to be a candidate for the I forgot Republican 202 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:52,039 Party and all this stuff, and he didn't get very far in that. 203 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:56,000 It didn't it didn't work out for him. He was actually such a loser. 204 00:14:56,039 --> 00:15:01,480 He'd still shoplift his own clothes because he didn't have any money to buy 205 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:05,879 clothes because he didn't have a job. He did the talking to people who 206 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:11,120 wanted to commit suicide with Ann Ruhl, that was showing him a bit of 207 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,000 normal, But I think he really just wanted to hear their stories, and 208 00:15:16,039 --> 00:15:20,120 with those stories it fed into what he felt like he could do, or 209 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:24,279 what he wanted to do in his mind or in the other side of him. 210 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,399 It was the evil, just horrible. I can't say enough bad words 211 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,840 for him. He was not a charmer, He was not good looking. 212 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,159 In my mind, he was not anything in a good way. It was 213 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,480 just a loser. One of the things I learned from your book, and 214 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:43,960 there's a lot in here to learn about you, your life as well as 215 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,000 Bundy. You take the air out of a bunch of these myths about him. 216 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:52,200 One is that he's some sort of genius. It took the guy eight 217 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,000 years to graduate from college, which most people do in four, sometimes even 218 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:03,840 less. So he's not exactly a scholar when it comes to academics, and 219 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,679 he's not necessarily such a brilliant strategic thinker either. You point out that in 220 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:15,240 many of the examples, he's attacking these women from behind while they're asleep. 221 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:22,600 This isn't the charmer. This is a guy who is lashing out at defenseless 222 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:26,600 people who aren't even looking at him, or whose eyes aren't even open. 223 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,200 He attacked women that were vulnerable in his mind. He didn't care what they 224 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,840 looked like, He didn't care anything about him. He just wanted to kill 225 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:41,080 and he got such pleasure when he killed that He was really just worse than 226 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,080 anything you can think of in his feelings. Or He finished his graduate school 227 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,080 in eight years, but he went less than two years to law school because 228 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,039 he couldn't handle it, because he just wasn't with it. He just didn't 229 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,559 have the fourwithal to try to get something and do it right. He was 230 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:02,600 just going through the days he could and then killing at night was his main 231 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,880 thing for living. Somehow, I think Ted Bundy should be synonymous with loser 232 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,599 more than anything else. I don't have a lot of respect for this guy. 233 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,319 I never had much respect for him, and your book A Light in 234 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:22,079 the Dark really highlights the fact that this guy is nothing unique and certainly knowing 235 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,000 to be looked up to. No, he wasn't. And I can say 236 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:30,119 some words about what I related to, but I don't think I should. 237 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,160 But yeah, it just he's creepy, he was sick. He was just 238 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:41,759 like not a human when he attacked people, the girls, and he did 239 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,240 do it from behind or attacked him with a crowbar or something. He never 240 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:51,039 confronted someone and attacked him that way. There was a couple times where men 241 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:55,200 were involved with the when he was trying to take the girls and one of 242 00:17:55,279 --> 00:18:00,000 them was a little Kimberly Beach in Lake Florida, and she was trying to 243 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:03,759 get He was trying to push her into a van and a guy came up 244 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:06,559 to him and it said, oh, that's just her dad. She probably 245 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:08,680 had a bad day and pushed him in the van and he walked away. 246 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,640 She was ended up being killed, but he didn't want to confront anybody, 247 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,119 so if he had come to him, he probably would have just let her 248 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:22,519 go and leave. So we've covered a couple of the important misconceptions about Bundy 249 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,400 that you'd like to see cleared up or I guess blown up. Are there 250 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,920 any others that we've missed? We've already talked about the fact that he wasn't 251 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,640 really intelligent, wasn't this master criminal? What else should we be aware of 252 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,799 here about Bundy? When he was young, he did the typical killing the 253 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:45,079 cat and being he was a peeping tom, and he had all the early 254 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,920 signs of being distressed as a human, and he did other things as he 255 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,960 grew older. And it's just even in the beginning there we know the signs 256 00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:57,759 now, but no one knew him then, and he just proceeded just like 257 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:03,440 a psychopath would. He just followed all the stages into growing into manhood. 258 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:10,079 Do you mind telling us that story about you staring him down and how you, 259 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:14,880 even as a young woman, convinced yourself. I need to buck myself 260 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,680 up and I need to face this man. The first time I saw him 261 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,359 after the attack was when I was subpoenaed for the deposition and I'd never been 262 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,279 to one before, and it was in this long conference room and I was 263 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:30,039 walking into the room and there's a conference table in front of me and on 264 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:33,400 one side where the defense attorneys on the other side of the prosecution, I 265 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,839 sat down. I looked at the other head at the table and there was 266 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,240 Ted Bundy and he was sitting there looking so smug and so like we're wasting 267 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,799 his time. And I put my elbows on the table and I looked at 268 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,920 him, and I thought, he's not going to get me. I don't 269 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,319 have to be afraid. Now he's at the other end of the table, 270 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,480 just where we need him to be on the outside. I did have to 271 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,279 build myself up for that, and I don't remember what the questions were that 272 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,960 either side the fence or prosecution asked. But then when I was asked to 273 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:10,400 leave and I could walk out, I told my mother, I think I'm 274 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,319 going to throw up because that was just such an emotional setting and I didn't 275 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:18,960 expect him to be there. That was the first time I saw him. 276 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,039 The second time I saw him was during the grand jury and I was against 277 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:26,440 the peanut and there was another conference room. I sat down and he was 278 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:30,640 over there. He had a light blue jacket on, and I still remember 279 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,440 him distinctly, and this time he was acting like, oh, man, 280 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,119 just get this over with again. He always thought he wouldn't be charged with 281 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,000 anything. He was so charming, he could get himself out of anything. 282 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:48,640 And at that point I was just frustrated and mad. When I saw him, 283 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,279 it was just like this. I was mad. I was really mad. 284 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,720 And the third time I saw was at the courthouse when I have to 285 00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:00,759 give my testimony of what happened during that night. So I did, and 286 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:04,160 they heard the story and they agreed it was time to come and put him 287 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:10,039 into trial. Now in a situation like in the courtroom in the third example, 288 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,039 Kathy, you're being asked questions by a prosecutor, and then were you 289 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:21,079 also asked questions by a defense attorney as well. Yes, When I entered 290 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:26,200 the courtroom and I got sworn in and I sat in the box where you 291 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,839 answered the questions, he was sitting in the courtroom as well, on one 292 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,400 side at his table, defense on the other side of the prosecution. And 293 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,160 again I just looked at him. He was antsy a little bit, then 294 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:41,720 shmug, you know this is going too far. Let's just get out of 295 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,759 here now. And the prosecution did ask me questions and I don't remember what 296 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,920 they were. And then defense asked me a couple questions, and I was 297 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,119 just staring at Bundy. I don't remember what there were the last question they 298 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,799 asked me, and I was so felt so good that I was going to 299 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:04,599 help convict him and help take him all out of this world and hurt him 300 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,640 bad. The one question I remember, is this the man you saw in 301 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,039 your room that night that attacked you. No, I had to say, 302 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:18,519 no, I don't know. And I was so upset that I couldn't help 303 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:23,440 convict him at all. But I had to say that, and it bothered 304 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,799 me for a long time. But it was dark, Am I correct? 305 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:32,440 It was you weren't able to see your attack her in the darkened room. 306 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,119 No, he came in. We were in the sorority house. I lived 307 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,079 on the second floor, and it faced the back parking lot on the second 308 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,279 floor, and we always had our curtain rat open because we hung plants on 309 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:47,880 the curtain rods. It was at night and it's still dark in the room, 310 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,599 and I heard him come in the door, swished on the carpet, 311 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,240 and it woke me up. It's about three in the morning. And then 312 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:57,279 he tripped and heard a louder noise. We had a little foot locker between 313 00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:03,079 my roommate's bed my bed, and he tripped over that, and that woke 314 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,240 me up. Now I'm awake, and I look and I see this figure, 315 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,799 this black silhouette of someone standing next to me. And then I see 316 00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:14,759 as him raise his arm, raise his arm up over his head, and 317 00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:18,720 he had something in his hand. He had a stick or something I couldn't 318 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,640 tell. And he slammed that down, that wood on my face so hard 319 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,240 that it slit my cheek open, and it looked like I had been shot. 320 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,920 It broke my jaw in three places. It shattered my chin, and 321 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,279 my face was all numb. I had two broke broken jawbones. I just 322 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,240 was hurting a lot at first. Actually it felt like hitting a bag of 323 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,319 potatoes. It just was a thud, and not maybe four minutes later, 324 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,799 the pain hid in and that's when I started moaning and groaning, and my 325 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,559 roommate heard it. So Bundy went over to that side of the bed and 326 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:59,079 attacked her with the same piece of wood that he attacked me with. Bundy 327 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,880 heard me crying now, and he didn't leave any victims alive, so he 328 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,319 came back to my side of the bed to hit me again. But I 329 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,440 had made myself as small as I could in a little bitty ball, and 330 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:15,759 I tried to get into under my sheets, and I just lay there so 331 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:18,920 vulnerable in a little ball, and I thought, if he can't see me, 332 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:22,920 he won't hit me. So I again. I saw him put his 333 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,079 arm up in the air and he had, as it turned out to be 334 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,160 a piece of firewood in his hand, and just as he was going to 335 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,440 strike me again, the room got all light. The light shone in the 336 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:37,279 room, and it was a brilliant light, and it shone in from the 337 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,640 car that was driving someone home a date that night. And the shot car 338 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,599 pulled up into the driveway, and the lights of that car shone up into 339 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,119 our room. Now I could see him, and he could see me, 340 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:53,160 and he spooped him. He moved around a little bit, and I think 341 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,920 he thought he was seen either by me or whatever made those lights shine up 342 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,759 in our room. He spooped out and ran out of our bedroom door. 343 00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:07,319 And as the lights went out and it got dark again, I'm staying in 344 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,440 my little bitty ball because I knew he was going to come back and hit 345 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,039 me again. But he didn't. He didn't come back. He left the 346 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:18,839 sorority at that time. How many people did he attacked at the sorority that 347 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,599 night? There were two. He attacked Margaret Bowman and hit her with the 348 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:26,119 piece of oak club he had picked up outside our back door. In the 349 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,640 sorority on the first floor, there was a stack of firewood we used for 350 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,920 the fireplace, and that's where he picked up a piece of wood. He 351 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,839 picked it up and the door was broken, the back padlock, so he 352 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,480 just waltzed right into the house, and he went around to the front of 353 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,920 the house and the wood staircase that led to the second floor. He went 354 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,640 up those and then he turned the hall that went to my bedroom. There 355 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,960 was a hall on the left and a hall on the right, so he 356 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:56,720 came down our hall and the first story opened was Margaret Bowman. He attacked 357 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,759 her with the log and put the sheets up over her face so that looked 358 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,799 like she was sleeping. He went across the hall and attacked Lisa Levi. 359 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:11,119 She was again alone in her room, and he beat her viciously with the 360 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,799 log. He did a lot of things to her, and he bit her, 361 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,039 and actually the teeth marks ended up being like a fingerprint, because your 362 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:25,200 teeth leave a natural impression that no tour like. So after he attacked both 363 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,759 of those girls. So he attacked two and killed two. Then myself and 364 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,599 my roommate he attacked, but we survived. And then later on that day, 365 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:38,880 that night he rode down the street to another girl's house and he attacked 366 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:45,519 her as well, so he attacked three and killed two. You're listening to 367 00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:59,519 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors we're 368 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:04,960 back here, Mind over Murder. Out of all of the really excellent content 369 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,119 in your book, the most important and impactful, I would say, is 370 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:17,240 your three appendices. The third one, Appendix C, is titled how to 371 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,759 honor the women and girls who lost their lives to Bundy, And I really 372 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:25,440 like that you put this together. Can you give us a quick overview of 373 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,920 the five different strategies to honor the lives of those women. The first thing 374 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,480 was to name them, to give them a true name and put a face 375 00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:38,119 to that name, don't just have in regular Bundy books. You open the 376 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,160 book to the page of the victims and it's one paragraph and our names are 377 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,880 separated by commas. And my name's on that on the very bottom. And 378 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,119 this isn't fair. I had a life. I was strong, I wanted 379 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,279 to be in college. I was exciting. I was a fresh sophomore. 380 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:59,119 I joined Kyle Mega sorority. I did a lot of fret parties, and 381 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,839 this was my life and I had to be taken out of that so fast. 382 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:07,079 But these women were taken away so fast, and he killed them, 383 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:11,759 and he didn't think anything about who their family was or who's going to be 384 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:17,519 impacted by this killing because he didn't care. He just went through in the 385 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:22,480 motions of killing, just because that's the way he was made and the way 386 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,079 he worked. So I wanted to give a face and a name to each 387 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,559 of the women and then talk about them a little bit. What were their 388 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,279 dreams, what did they want to do, what did they do last night? 389 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,799 Tell me about their family? And we found as much as we could 390 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,519 about the thirty two women. That made me happy because I gave them a 391 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,640 voice and I let people know who they were. There were real people, 392 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,000 not just victims. I would imagine their families if they were comfortable talking with 393 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:55,400 you, probably would have enjoyed that, because here you are talking about their 394 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,759 legacy and their lives and not just positioning them as victims. I hope. 395 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,519 So I've not been reached out by anybody yet. I expect to at some 396 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,000 point, and I'd love to talk to them, just let them know that 397 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:11,480 I never knew their daughter, their sister, but I loved them. So 398 00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:15,920 what are some of these other strategies? I like? The English teacher is 399 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,559 about to say that she loves your verb use here. I love your choice 400 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:23,480 of verbs. For the second item here, you said stomp on and discredit 401 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:27,200 the Bundy legacy. I love stomp. No, yes, I love that. 402 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,640 That's great. That's a great verb. Stomp as hard as you can. 403 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:36,480 I love that. So what does that mean when you say to discredit 404 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:40,599 the Bundy legacy? What does that mean? Just pull them apart, take 405 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,559 them apart, and show what he's not. He was never charismatic and a 406 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:51,799 good guy and had money, and everything he perceived was a lie. So 407 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,039 I wanted the truth to be taken out put into the equation because he just 408 00:29:56,079 --> 00:30:02,480 couldn't survive as a normal person. He couldn't get over his killing sprees and 409 00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:06,680 his he actually would kill girls and take them into the woods and then go 410 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:11,200 back to their bodies and put makeup on them and be with them again. 411 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:17,640 And he just can't I can't say enough bad words, or in my vocabulary, 412 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:23,200 I don't have the words I could say. And he's just needed to 413 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,039 be taken down. At the same time, what a pathetic loser. This 414 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,960 is a guy that couldn't interact with people in any kind of positive way, 415 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,559 get to know people, learn about them. He's just lashing out and then 416 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:44,319 going back to visit their bodies. It's just pathetic. He killed a lot 417 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,240 of women, and he would take their body parts, he would cut them 418 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,680 out and then put them in different states so that they couldn't be associated that, 419 00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:55,000 oh, look, here's an arm, and let's go look for the 420 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:57,000 body, because he'd never find it. And here's a head, what is 421 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,839 the body? Where is the body? And that would be woods in another 422 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,319 state. So he was thinking about not getting caught the whole time was what 423 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:07,559 can I do to not get caught? But he didn't care. He wasn't 424 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:11,200 going to get caught. In his head, he was just going to do 425 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:14,839 as he pleased for as long as he wanted to. And of course he's 426 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:21,960 operating at a time that's well before DNA and other forensic advances had taken place, 427 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,839 so you would not be able to identify someone who's arm or leg or 428 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:33,039 what have you is found in another location, unlike twenty twenty three, where 429 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,319 you might actually be able to forgive me piece together the story of what had 430 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,240 happened to a victim. The science would allow that now, but it wouldn't 431 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:48,519 back then. Correct. I like that. You also mention that people need 432 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:53,720 to stop victim blaming when it comes to Bundy's victims, such as she was 433 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:57,359 hitchhiking, she must have deserved it or something like that. I like that 434 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,720 you take the point within this appendix to really focus on the social norms were 435 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:06,720 different at the time. It is fine for you to walk alone, like 436 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:09,680 women should be allowed to walk alone without ever having a worry. Is a 437 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,720 serial killer going to accost me from behind? I like that You guys just 438 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,640 really went out there and said, hey, stop victim blaming. I don't 439 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:24,880 think people appreciate too how common hitchhiking was back then. Now, I was 440 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,200 a young single guy in college, but I hitchhiked back and forth to my 441 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,759 university, the University of Massachusetts, at least once a month, sometimes more 442 00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:39,240 often than that. I never took a bus back and forth from my parents' 443 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:45,599 hometown to the University of Massachusetts. I had a sign one side said you 444 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:50,279 mass and the other side said Lowell, which is my parents' hometown, and 445 00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:52,200 I kept it in the bottom of a duffel bag. When I was ready 446 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:57,599 to head home for a particular weekend, I just hit the road with my 447 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,319 sign saying Lowell. And then on Sunday, when I was heading back, 448 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:05,480 it said you mess and I consistently got a ride back and forth about one 449 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:12,960 hundred miles. Even single women hitchhiked very frequently. This we're talking about a 450 00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:19,640 very different era very much. I never was in that time of frame and 451 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,920 that mindset to go and hitchhike. That just wasn't into what I did and 452 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,759 how I moved along in getting transportation. But I can't imagine being picked up 453 00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:35,000 by somebody like Bundy and then being hit in the head with the crowbar. 454 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,680 And now she's a victim, but she was actually a survivor. She lived 455 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:45,200 for any amount of time, so he would hit them and go to kill 456 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,359 them, but a lot of times they weren't dead yet, so victimized them 457 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,279 over and over. So it was like she should be on the survival mode, 458 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,440 she should go for, she should hope in her head. And I 459 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:01,240 just it makes me feel sad to think that their last words were please don't 460 00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:07,640 kill me, Please don't. Those words just haunt me when I think about 461 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,840 it, because he was there were so many of them, and he just 462 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,440 had no care about it. He didn't care what he was doing to him. 463 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,880 And Kathy, now that you've said that and you really have contextualized it 464 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,360 for people, this is not somebody that we need to be glorifying. I 465 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:28,440 do the fact that you and Emily mentioned do not in any way support fictionalize 466 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,440 stories about Bundy or his victims, and there have been so many over the 467 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:37,639 last couple of years. One of those. Yes, I've read every book 468 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,679 and I've watched them, and it desensiized myself a little bit and pushes it 469 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,760 back. But you have to remember, when I make a movie, they 470 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,599 hire an actor and actresses and they're working to get money, so they're going 471 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:57,440 to do whatever it takes to make the story believable and make it that way. 472 00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:00,559 So when I see these movies, I know that actors and they're just 473 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:04,639 doing what the writers wrote for him, and the directors are telling them what 474 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,760 to do. And I know the mails that pick or picked for the part 475 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:13,920 of Bundy. They have to die really low and to the man and understand 476 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,360 him one hundred percent on who he is and who he was. That's a 477 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,119 difficult thing for me to know what that actor had to go through to be 478 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,039 part of his head. And I'm sure that was difficult, But the movie 479 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:30,639 itself was somebody wrote it and somebody act in it. I was actually watching 480 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,239 the other day with a friend of mine. They had wanted to see Elizabeth 481 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,639 Kendall's documentary about her life with Bundy. And I was watching there was actually 482 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,440 footage of you from the courtroom in it, and I stopped and I said, 483 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,800 Oh, that's Kathy, that's my friend Kathy. But have you watched 484 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,360 the document all of the documentaries that have come out about him? Is that 485 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,719 something you watched as well? Yes, I did. I watched each one. 486 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,119 Is it difficult? The fourth part series that Netflix did was never mentioning 487 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:08,159 the victims. It was Bundy's tapes. So we got to know Bundy the 488 00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:12,559 way he wanted us to think. It was Bundy. So we watched the 489 00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:19,079 tapes and it was interesting. It was you know, education to know him, 490 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:22,559 learn what he was and who we talked to and psychiatrist and getting through 491 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:27,480 all that. And then at the very end when they got to the end 492 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,159 of the tapes and it was the last session and they were going to kill 493 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,719 him, and he started saying, no, please, don't kill me, 494 00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:40,480 please, I'll talk to you more. Don't kill me please. And that 495 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,679 just the thought of him saying that, and the girls saying that, it 496 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,199 just that eats me up. Let's step away from him for a second and 497 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,199 tell us a little bit about your writing process, because really, this could 498 00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:55,840 not have been easy. How long did it take you? What is your 499 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,639 I love asking people about their writing process because I try to teach it to 500 00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:04,039 my eyes. Student, talk to us about your process. It was difficult, 501 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:08,440 and Emily was wonderful. We'd take a section of the book and go 502 00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:13,079 for maybe two and a half or three hours, and she'd get into my 503 00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:15,920 head and I'd tell her what I want to say, and then she sat 504 00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:22,079 down and wrote it so eloquently. I give her so much credit for the 505 00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:24,400 way she wrote it. She got into my head and said how I wanted 506 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,880 it to sound. Just working together like that, we just took sections of 507 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,960 a time like when I had lupus, and we just talked about that for 508 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,559 a couple of days or a couple interviews, which made me feel in a 509 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,960 weird place because I did bring it back in my head, and again, 510 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,719 I wanted people to feel what it felt like when I was home alone and 511 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,360 sick. So that was something that it took a while for us to talk 512 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,960 about. We finally did, and it was good. I enjoyed the way 513 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,800 it came out. I was happy with the way it came out. Now, 514 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,320 you live in Florida and Emily lives out Chicago. Were you doing this 515 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,960 mostly remotely via zoom or conference calls? How did you actually put the interviews 516 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,480 together? Most of it was on the phone. We didn't get into the 517 00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:16,679 zoom back then as much. We just did phone hours and hours. Every 518 00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:21,360 now and then we do a FaceTime or something. But I just felt more 519 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,559 comfortable on the phone because I could talk it and close my eyes and feel 520 00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:30,039 it and not have to see her and wondering if she's reacting to what I'm 521 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:32,360 saying that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I just closed my eyes and 522 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:40,159 talked. Did she record those conversations? I don't know. I never asked. 523 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:43,880 I know you have to say, I'm recording you if you do. 524 00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:49,639 But then she was trying to capture the essence of these different important chapters in 525 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,360 your life, from as far back as when you were a girl, all 526 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,559 the way through to the present day. Did this feel a little bit like 527 00:38:55,639 --> 00:39:00,280 therapy in a way? It did, and it does. One of the 528 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,519 things. After I was attacked, I had to leave Tallahassee and I went 529 00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:09,519 down to Miami with my family and my parents and had to recuperate there. 530 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,039 I was going through a lot because I had to leave the house, leave 531 00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:17,719 my sorty house and the girls. I needed to be talked to and told 532 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,280 I did nothing wrong and that they loved me. And I couldn't get through 533 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,199 to any of the sorority sisters, and they never really touched out to me. 534 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,199 As I tried on the phone, they just didn't respond, they didn't 535 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,239 call me back. That was difficult. That was difficult to get through because 536 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,519 I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. It wasn't my fault, and yet 537 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,280 I felt like they thought it because they didn't contact me. But one of 538 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,440 the ways that really bothered me was the whole attack, the whole recuperation, 539 00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:54,239 the whole series around it, all the attention, and I felt like I 540 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,679 had this black cape around me, this black, ugly mass, and it 541 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:02,719 struck to encompass me and I could see out of it, but I felt 542 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,360 more and more like it was going to close up on me. And as 543 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,519 I saw it, I didn't want to live like that. I didn't want 544 00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:14,360 to be scared in a little room with no windows and just hang out in 545 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,480 there because I was afraid to walk out. And as I saw that mass, 546 00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:22,440 I looked way out in the distance and I saw a little island and 547 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,440 it had one palm tree and one beach chair sitting on it. And I 548 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,280 wanted to get to that island so bad. So I used to take baby 549 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,199 steps to get to my island. And it took a long time and a 550 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,000 lot of baby steps. And as I took the baby steps, I turned 551 00:40:38,039 --> 00:40:44,039 around and looked and that black mass were baby steps behind me. And I 552 00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:47,880 continued to walk and walk, and I finally got to my goal, and 553 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,280 that was my little beach chair. I sat down, I put my toes 554 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,840 in the sand. I looked up and there was no black mass. It 555 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,960 was completely gone. I had shed my ugliness that I had around me. 556 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,119 And after that, I never got that feeling of being afraid like that that 557 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:07,079 he was going to come back or it was going to come back, because 558 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:12,440 I overcame and I beat it. That was my therapy. I didn't have 559 00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:17,400 visit mental therapy back in seventy eight. It wasn't all that given to victims. 560 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,719 And my mama was Cuban and she's don't talk about our problems outside the 561 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,320 house, so she never offered me to have a therapist because she didn't want 562 00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,840 anyone to know our business. One of the other things when I was attacked 563 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:37,000 and I started feeling not afraid, but just uncomfortable around men I didn't know. 564 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,559 I wasn't afraid they were going to attack me. I was just uncomfortable 565 00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:43,960 with him. And my mouth had been wired for nine weeks, and as 566 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,199 soon as I got it opened up and I could talk. I went to 567 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,920 work at a lumber yard because I figured where can I see the most men 568 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:54,119 and the quickest amount of time so that I can get over this phobia. 569 00:41:55,039 --> 00:42:00,519 Very interesting and a positive wow approach on your part, especially for a young 570 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:06,639 person. I worked there for three weeks and then I decided these guys aren't 571 00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,360 going to hurt me. Not everyone I sees a bad man, and so 572 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,280 after about three weeks, I quit. But I did learn that there's a 573 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:24,639 lot of cute construction workers, you guys. That was a good thing. 574 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,360 Gosh, I'm going to quote Bill to himself here for a second. As 575 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,840 I asked this question, do we have to we have? We have to 576 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,280 because it's important for this So Kathy. Bill has always said that losing a 577 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,239 loved one to violent crime, grant you membership in a club that no one 578 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,480 wants to join. And I would say that the same is true for anyone 579 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:52,920 who has survived violent crime. What words of encouragement do you have for anyone 580 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,000 who has had the misfortune to join the club? If you will seek help, 581 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,960 if you need it, go to someone that professionally can help you. 582 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,760 What I've done for me is I've talked about it, and I talk about 583 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,639 it to whomever wants to hear me. And that's some way I think I'm 584 00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:15,519 getting into helping someone else. And for them to know that it's not their 585 00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:22,239 fault whatever happened. They're a victim for one day or for years, they 586 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,960 really will be a survivor once they get to the other side. That's beautiful 587 00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:31,320 and nicely said. The book is a light in the dark surviving more than 588 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,480 Ted Bundy. Kathy, thank you so much for joining us today. We 589 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,239 adore having you on here and you've made both of us cry a little bit, 590 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:45,559 but I think you too. Thank you so much. This has been 591 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,719 wonderful. And where can everybody find the book? Is it out at all 592 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:54,239 major retailers? Yes? And also Amazon and books a million and Barnes and 593 00:43:54,280 --> 00:44:00,559 Noble, and they're on several retail stores. Fantastic, I was going to 594 00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:04,920 do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for 595 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:19,400 listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of 596 00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:24,960 Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin 597 00:44:25,039 --> 00:44:30,920 Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by 598 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:36,280 Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 599 00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:39,960 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 600 00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:45,559 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 601 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:50,320 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 602 00:44:50,400 --> 00:45:07,599 listening to mind Over Murder at