WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:07.559 Well, whiskey coming fame, my Paine, my brain, Oh Whiskey, 2 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:15.439 don't you let Me? From power Line blog dot com and produced by Ricochet 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:22.679 dot Com, This is the three Whiskey Happy Hour with your bartenders Steve Hayward, 4 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:30.199 John Yu and power Lines International Woman of Mystery Lucretia has got a given 5 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:39.399 and let that whiskey flow when you're being in love down in loon, So 6 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.320 Lucretia, it turns out that John Yu has been punking us all along, 7 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:46.000 with all of his crazy talk about how it's not really an invasion at the 8 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:49.840 border, Texas can't do what they're doing. What's the big deal? You 9 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:53.119 know, we've had a legal immigration forever and lo and behold, it turns 10 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:55.840 out here at the end of the week he's not here with us. He's 11 00:00:55.880 --> 00:01:00.479 in Mexico. What's he doing in Mexico? He won't say. Expect he's 12 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:06.400 on some clandestine paramilitary mission to introdict to illegal immigrant caravans and he's been hunking 13 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:10.239 us all along. But in his place, we have a special guest today 14 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:15.239 joining us from New York and as Stepman of the Independent Women's Forum, a 15 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.000 co host of her own podcast on Ricochet called high Noon, frequent contributor to 16 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:23.560 The New York Post, the Federalist, first Things, all the right places, 17 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.680 the American Mind, and so forth. So welcome in As. I'm 18 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.000 going to introduce you more fully to readers in a moment. But I'm very 19 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.599 glad you could join us. I'm so honored to be joining you, especially 20 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.480 some of the topics we're getting into today I think are really fun. So 21 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.359 I'm really looking forward to it. Well partly, I mean, you may 22 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.920 regret that by the end of the hour, because partly we've been quarreling more 23 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.400 than usual lately. And one of the thoughts was, and some listeners have 24 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.959 asked, why don't you not have a neutral party exactly? But you know, 25 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:53.799 have a new vector in the whole thing. But I think what we 26 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.159 got to do in As, instead of having a recite a biography I'm always 27 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:02.359 bashful about that, we thought we'd give you a sort of ten lightning round 28 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:06.599 questions for listeners to get a sense of who you are and what you think. 29 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.919 Some are serious, some are more whimsical, and the last one is 30 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:13.719 actually the most serious one. But it will be the last one. So 31 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:16.000 let me just start, and you know, somebody, can I just say 32 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:23.800 one thing first. The idea that you're bashful about your bio Steve is appalling, 33 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:28.719 okay, but you may be bashful about actually listening to enez is bio 34 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.879 because you know, take away from yours. Now, see, this is 35 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:36.719 what I have, This is what I have to put up with one. 36 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:38.680 It's two to one. The ladies are in charge. Now, all right, 37 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:44.400 this is a post nineteenth Amendment discussion. Oh well, so Cretia's view, 38 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:47.360 you tell her your view of the nineteenth. I joke all the time 39 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.360 that we should repeal the nineteenth a minute, because you know all the stupid 40 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:59.319 women who vote so stupidly. But and that you know a woman worth her 41 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:01.400 soul can figure out one way or another to get her vote across. That's 42 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:05.840 been my argument. But the funny thing was this past year, not just 43 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.919 once, but twice, I was asked to give a speech celebrating the nineteenth 44 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:19.199 Amendment and Women's Equality Day. And that's always a interesting way of infusing my 45 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.960 Straussian background into my speeches. I'll just leave it at that. I actually 46 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:27.639 I have some interesting views on the nineteenth Amendment too, So maybe we should 47 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.080 add that to the docket. If we have time because I think, yeah, 48 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.520 okay, dis question history, that'll be fine. Right. Well, 49 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:36.680 you know we're going to try and get to Woodrow Wilson and that was when 50 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:38.840 the nineteen event was passed. Okay, we'll save a little, we'll try 51 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.919 and carve out spot for that. All right, let me do some I 52 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.719 say, halfway serious, but I think some of your biography will emerge. 53 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:50.439 So let's start with the sort of a layup nihilism for it or against it, 54 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.120 very much against it, but sometimes it creeps into my brain. Has 55 00:03:54.159 --> 00:04:01.879 to be back with a combination of reading and and whiskey. Yeah, ah, 56 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.960 oh good, I'm coming to the whiskey question. Yeah. I mean, 57 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:08.599 we don't have time to get into your essay and first things today, 58 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.599 but I did Lincoln in Caroline's pick section the other day. But some other 59 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.120 time. Well, let's do whiskey then, you know, we find about 60 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.160 whiskey on here because I like the peat, smoky, single, malt, 61 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:25.120 eelay whiskeys, and Lucretia hates them with a passion, and so what's your 62 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:28.959 whiskey of choice? So I think I'm going to be siding with Lucretia on 63 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:31.600 this one. Generally, because I like Bourbon, and then ray, I'm 64 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:36.959 not as big a fan of Scotch, although I have a Scottish friend and 65 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.439 she has introduced me to some Scotches that I really like, but exactly because 66 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:46.040 they're not what you're describing pd and smoky. In my opinion, lafreug for 67 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.800 example, tastes very much like how I imagine having surgery in the Civil War 68 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:56.720 taste when they jam a leather strap from the stable into your mouth. So 69 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:04.120 I'm not into Lafrey. That's my favorite interesting image. I always just tell 70 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:11.079 Steve it it tastes like licking an ash tray. There you go. Yeah, 71 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.759 but yours is a bit more subtle. I like it. Yeah, 72 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:17.680 yeah, No, I'm not a fan of the very pead, very smoky 73 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.279 scotches, so to the extent that I like Scotch, it is on the 74 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:26.160 opposite. I have a friend who drinks only bourbon, but buys bourbon and 75 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:30.519 then has this contraption that puts smoke into the glass of bourbon. Have you 76 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.959 seen those? I've seen those in some cocktail bars and stuff. Yeah, 77 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:41.000 all right, next one be kind of fun, kind of serious. David 78 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:47.399 French yay or yuck is there even any I hope there's no disagreement on this 79 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.680 one. I don't think so he's disgraced himself. Okay, yeah, I 80 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:56.839 thought would be the heated agreement on this. Okay, A little more serious. 81 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.680 Who is your name one or two or three of your most influential thinkers 82 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:05.079 or writers who been you know, important to you or that you still follow 83 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:13.240 or shelp shape your thinking, modern or going on anytime a period anytime, 84 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.279 I mean all the usual lame con inc sort of stuff, like the Founders 85 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:24.839 and particularly James Madison, which is the lamest answer to give. I think 86 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:29.360 these days shows that you don't know what time it is but still find an 87 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.240 enormous amount of inspiration there. And then in the more modern era Burnham, 88 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:38.519 who I thought was very prophetic in certain ways. Again not an original observation, 89 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:44.800 Camille Paulia Philip Reef, which is a kind of off the wall one, 90 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.199 but he wrote something I think people talk about Christopher Lash, and it's 91 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:54.079 true that that Lash was a great writer who also got a lot of things 92 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:58.680 right far before his time. But Philip Reef wrote something called The Triumph the 93 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:04.720 Therapeutic that I think even better than Lash. Describes the sort of cultural therapeutism 94 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:10.120 that we live in today. So again, I don't know. I haven't 95 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:14.360 sat down for a while to organize my influences, so I'm probably missing something 96 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:15.560 that I'll be embarrassed about later. No, No, it's fine. I 97 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.879 didn't prepare you for that one or the sequel. But since you mentioned James 98 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:26.480 Madison, do you have a favorite federalist paper. I'm not sure I do, 99 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:31.480 but the card now because I, I mean, obviously like some of 100 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:36.439 the big famous ones. And I again I'm gonna dissemble a little bit because 101 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:43.759 I think some of the concepts that I find the most appealing are the of 102 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:50.639 course ambition against ambition, the understanding of government's role as necessary but sort of 103 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.480 a necessary evil, and the understanding of man's nature is between the beasts and 104 00:07:55.519 --> 00:08:00.879 angels. So these are some of the So those are all from big ones, 105 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.360 though I wish I had a more obscure one. I was like, 106 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.079 I really love what about like the one the one by John Jay about every 107 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:15.560 creation one contribution to the modern discourse? Yeah, poor John Jay, he 108 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:20.800 gets left behind all the time. Well, anyway, I mean that's actually 109 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:22.319 a dumb question. I mean, Lucreasia will probably tell me that now if 110 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.480 I ask her, do you have a favorite Federal's paper? You know, 111 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:31.000 we did a whole series online, D have two. Federal is fifty one. 112 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.759 But because it contains the phrase dependence on the people is no doubt the 113 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:41.399 primary control on government. That's the reason that fifty one is my favorite. 114 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.600 And for that reason, I think we should abolish the Supreme Court. But 115 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.919 that's another story altogether. And then the one that's the I forget. I 116 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:52.600 think it's thirty. It's one of the late thirties. If I'm not mistaken, 117 00:08:52.679 --> 00:09:00.919 it's could be the early forties. James Madison where he talks about he 118 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:07.440 talks about the idea that Congress could make laws that don't apply to themselves, 119 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.879 and that's a criticism by the anti federalists, and Madison comes back and says, 120 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.159 that's impossible. That's a I mean, that's an absolute impossibility, because 121 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:26.559 the moment that the people are prepared to tolerate a Congress that passes laws from 122 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.960 which it exempts itself, they'll be prepared to tolerate anything but liberty. Yeah. 123 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.480 Okay, well, an I'll skip over mine because I want to press 124 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.360 on here a similar question though, do you have a favorite president or world 125 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:45.159 leader, pastor president? Doesn't that be American? I like to I like 126 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:50.919 to stick to America. I think favorite is different than most. I think 127 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:58.679 the most underrated American president is Andrew Jackson. Interesting when I have a bobble 128 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.759 heat of behind here, both in his understanding of the Union too as and 129 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.960 before leading up to the Civil War, as well as I think exactly some 130 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:15.840 of the we have. Really I think people are very afraid of American populism. 131 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.639 And as far as I can tell, there have been four major successful 132 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:26.320 populist movements in the United States, Jackson's being the first, followed by FDR, 133 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.279 which you know, conservatives abhorror, but but Reagan and then Trump. 134 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:33.679 I don't know if he can we can call it successful or not. It's 135 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.519 too early to tell, but I think Reagan counts as a populist movement, 136 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.399 a successful one in the United States. But anyway, I think it's true. 137 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.879 I agree with the founder's warnings about mob rule. That being said, 138 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.600 you know, every every age has its own devils to slay, and I 139 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.039 think in our age the devil is more what it was in Jackson's day, 140 00:10:54.080 --> 00:11:01.799 which is concentrated power, disconnection of the elite from the people. So populism 141 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:03.960 and mob rule have their own devils, but I think that one's the devil 142 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.159 for age. I'll say, er Jackson, Okay, here, here's a 143 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.200 real thorny one. You'll see why. Depending on the answer you give Edmund 144 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:18.440 Burke sage or bore or do you have an opinion on Burke? I have. 145 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:24.720 I have probably a controversial opinion on this one. I think Edmund Burke 146 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.320 is a sage, but I I had very little patience for Kirk, who 147 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.399 I think is the American you know, like for American conservatism is very much 148 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:37.919 like how we think of Burke comes through Kirk, and I have less patience 149 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.080 for him. Yeah, that's uh, Lucretia, how do you grade it 150 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:45.120 is? Lucretia is a very down on Burke, and I sometimes bring him 151 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.000 up just to annoy her. So the sage part doesn't even it doesn't even 152 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.240 register with me. The bore part, I mean, without getting into whether 153 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.799 or not he's a sage, I just find him an incomprehensible bore, just 154 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.320 so boring. And you know the thing is is you can't blame it on 155 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.000 you can't blame it on the dialect of the time or anything like that, 156 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.159 because you can read many, many other people from around that period and they're 157 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.000 quite fascinating. He's just dull as all hell. Never mind why he's wrong. 158 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:20.399 We'll leave that for another day. So I always mark her down as 159 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.480 undecided. But all right, let's do the most maybe the most serious question 160 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.720 to ask for this list. We have been very sharply divided about the Ukraine 161 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.600 War, and I don't propose that we take it up in any detail today, 162 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.120 but I'd just like to get your perspective on it, since it divides 163 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.240 a lot of conservatives. And also, I mean listeners should know that you 164 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:43.600 are the daughter of emigrats from Poland. If I got that right, your 165 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:50.440 parents are from Poland? Right, So what's your general sense about the Ukraine 166 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.600 War? What should we be doing? How should we think about this? 167 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:01.320 So? I think we should support Ukraine. I have supported the the aid 168 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.879 from the US Ukraine for two reasons. One, I actually do think it's 169 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:13.279 in our national interest, and two, I think there's a lot of mistranslation 170 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:22.639 politically back and forth between Eastern Europe broadly and American conservatism. And I think 171 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:28.480 in part because the frame of the Cold War is still so strong in Eastern 172 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:33.039 Europe. It's not going away there even now, right And so I think, 173 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:37.320 especially in Poland, you find that people on the right or in the 174 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:41.919 middle have no conception at all of what's happened to the American regime and what's 175 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.840 happened to the West. More broadly, they still they look at the West 176 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:50.840 the way they did in nineteen eighty three, and increasingly that frame is sort 177 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:56.480 of distorting and breaking down. But I think it's something that the right here 178 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.759 maybe doesn't understand when they think about like the relationship between you Kraine and Russia, 179 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:07.440 for example, or anyway, I think they still look at the West 180 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:15.559 and liberal democracy in a way that is uncynical, whereas here we really do. 181 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.080 And that's kind of I guess that's a long short answer, but I 182 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.919 have a longer to say on that. So I think, you know, 183 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:28.320 American, the American conceit, although earned in many ways, justified in many 184 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:33.720 ways, is that we don't have to learn very much about how things land 185 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:37.320 in various parts of the world, and we project American politics around the world. 186 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:43.840 And so anyway, I think there's often like a schism or disconnect. 187 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.039 Although ultimately, and this is where I do agree with the right when they 188 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.480 talk, at least the part of the right that talks about the global American 189 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.159 Empire and if you know the Ukraine is going to align with us, then 190 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.840 they'll it'll it'll just be all gay there and in twenty years I think there 191 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.559 is there is a lot of truth to that. But what I don't agree 192 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.879 with is there's a reason that people there would rather even if they don't even 193 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.320 have a conception of sort of where the West has gone, there's a reason 194 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.639 why when they're on the border between these two systems, they'd rather not be 195 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.799 in the orbit of Russia. Yeah, yeah, well, to be continued, 196 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:20.159 I mean, I certainly Poland is the most robust and stepping up right 197 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.399 now saying we're going to prepare to defend ourselves against Russia or anybody else. 198 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:26.320 But mainly they mean Russia, right, I mean, no love lost there 199 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:30.120 between your parents' homeland in Russia. Going back in the long time, Poland 200 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:35.360 is a nice flat space for Russia and Germany to do tank battles and who 201 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:41.399 wants that, right, all right, we'll find that a way for future 202 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:46.720 thought and discussion. So let's do one thing. We have been having this 203 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:52.600 episodic argument about the Civil War and how she understood, all precipitated by Nikki 204 00:15:52.639 --> 00:16:00.879 Haley totally botching the question. And one of the things that maybe perceived already 205 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.440 is that Lucretian I often agree but can't agree on why, and are always 206 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.320 attacking each other for defects. And this goes back to what we were graduate 207 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.440 students for a moment. I don't know that you've ever found a defect in 208 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:22.799 my arguments. I see, okay, So the so I think what we 209 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.039 will will just give you a sort of a one long paragraph summary of our 210 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.600 positions, and then you can come in with your own or your observations or 211 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.679 you know, how you react to it and what well on what Nicki Haley 212 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.360 should have said, which which is how the Civil War should be understood. 213 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.279 I don't think we need to. You know, we'll continue to come back 214 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.320 to and maybe do a whole seminar on the larger, multi faceted civil war 215 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:45.960 questions. But I said to what Nicki Haley should have said as this, 216 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.639 she should have said, the cause of the Civil War was the Democratic Party 217 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:55.039 refused to accept the results of a free and fair election after having spent two 218 00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:00.519 generations trashing the fundamental principles of the American founding kind of sounds just like today, 219 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.640 right, I mean, the election denial stuff is they're saying that's Trump 220 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:07.319 and January sixth and all that. But I think that actually the first election 221 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:12.039 deniers today, or on the left anyway. That's my basic point, and 222 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:19.599 Lucretia finds that supers of course, so give you worse than what should she 223 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:23.680 have said? Well, in order to counter something superficial, you need to 224 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:29.200 be a little bit more. You need to go deeper. We don't really 225 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.319 have time for that. But I would say this that the only part of 226 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:37.000 which what you said I think is critical is the part about the founding principles. 227 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:44.039 The Civil War was fought over whether all human beings were created equal or 228 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.880 not. And what does that mean. It means it was fought over slavery. 229 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:53.799 Of course, it was not fought over economic reasons. This is the 230 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:57.680 dumbest argument. I just I can't even so I'm going to leave that aside. 231 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.160 But the point is is that Lincoln had never, had never, at 232 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.720 any moment, said he was prepared to end slavery in the states where it 233 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.759 existed, didn't believe he had the power, did so when he thought he 234 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:15.200 had the power in Congress, in the House of Representatives, when his short 235 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.319 term there, he voted to end slavery in Washington, D C. But 236 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:25.759 why he, I think certainly Lincoln thought that in the normal course of things, 237 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.039 slavery would long outlast his lifetime. I think that he thought it could 238 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:37.119 last for many more decades, quite frankly, as long as we as long 239 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.240 as we continued to live by the principle that it was in fact unnecessary evil, 240 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.079 that we didn't know how to get rid of slavery without causing more evils 241 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:51.599 than the evil itself. We saw that. Of course, after slavery did 242 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:57.440 end, we saw the difficulties that the country had in in assimilating the newly 243 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:06.680 freed slaves into the Republic as full citizens, and the the kind of prejudice 244 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:11.440 that Jefferson warned about if we freed slaves. You know, all of those 245 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.640 things Lincoln was worried about, and quite rightly so. When we get to 246 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.880 Lincoln in the middle of the Civil War and he's being asked to end slavery, 247 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.400 he says, a, I don't have the power under the Constitution to 248 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:29.519 do so. That compromise made in the Constitution is still part of the Constitution. 249 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.359 The states have power over their own domestic institutions, including slavery. I 250 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:40.000 will exercise power as commander in chief in the States in rebellion as a matter 251 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:45.200 of military necessity. That didn't cause him to refrain from also calling it an 252 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:51.160 act of justice. But the heart of the matter is that the South could 253 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:56.559 not tolerate as president of the United States someone who insisted on calling slavery and 254 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:03.759 evil, if a necessary evil, because they knew what Lincoln argued was slavery 255 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.000 was on the course of ultimate extinction as long as we maintained the principles of 256 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.680 human equality. Can I just highlight just two things you said. One is 257 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.599 there are those libertarians to say, now it's really about the tariff, and 258 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.200 I agree that's completely ludicrous. Libertarians are idiots. But even the crisis in 259 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.640 eighteen thirty two was not really about terrorists, right, right. But the 260 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.480 second point is to just sharpen it a little bit. You know, some 261 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.759 good friends of ours, conservatives saying, yeah, you know, Lincoln wasn't 262 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.400 really that intent on getting rid of slavery. You just want to preserve the 263 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:38.079 union and they've forgotten the hierarchy or architecture of prudence involved. That would be 264 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:41.559 my friend Dan Oliver, for example. So anyway, so it is what 265 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.440 I mean, did you follow this controversy? What are people that you sort 266 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.000 of deal with New York saying about it? Or did it say about it? 267 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.480 Or you know, pick any any aspect of that question you'd like to 268 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.880 offer some thoughts. Well, well, New York has famously been on the 269 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.359 wrong side of virtually every war that America has ever fought, so I don't 270 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:04.440 know that i'd ask their opinion on this question. I mean, look, 271 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.519 it's a difficult question to answer, as we've just seen in the last several 272 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.519 minutes. It's a very difficult question to answer in a media environment. So 273 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:18.279 even though I'm not inclined to give Nikki Haley much credit almost ever, I 274 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:23.519 don't have a wittier or succinct way to answer this question. So it'll probably 275 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.519 take longer than would be permitted in the media environment. Say that, I 276 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:33.039 mean, I think really three things to answer this question, and a somewhat 277 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:40.640 somewhat truncated way, although not nearly as truncated as necessary for twenty four hour 278 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.160 media. So again I think she had. It's a difficult question to answer 279 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.839 for media. One is that I think it's a very good example of how, 280 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:57.839 ultimately, while you can tolerate plenty of dissent, especially a nation like 281 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.640 the United States that isn't just built around a tribe, it's a particular tribe, 282 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:08.359 right, requires at some buy in, at some level of a common 283 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:15.559 view of justice and some fundamental principles. And when that breaks down, all 284 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.000 of all of the mechanisms that man can devise, the best ones of which 285 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.519 are in the Constitution, ultimately fail. So slavery is the pause of the 286 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.200 war. Got to jump in and say, I mean, the way I'd 287 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:30.279 summarize what you just said or add to it is it's very hard for anybody 288 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.000 to give a chrisp answer when you have, you know, the two generations 289 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.440 at least of students and American citizens who have been so badly miseducated about those 290 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.359 fundamental principles of justice, right, I think, right. And it's it's 291 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:48.640 very difficult because when you say things that are like very obviously true, people 292 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.039 think that you are lying because it's so they just like immediately tune you out. 293 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.920 But so that's the first thing is that the lesson for us in this 294 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:03.319 war about slavery is that there are some there are some disagreements on some level 295 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:10.920 that a nation cannot tolerate. And I think that that's a warning sign for 296 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.279 us. And the second warning sign, to make it relevant to what we're 297 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:19.279 going through now, is that it's easy to forget that politics is war by 298 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:26.759 other means. And what happens when there are two irreducible disagreements, and in 299 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:33.480 particular when one side or both sides decide that the process for resolving that is 300 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:41.640 illegitimate is this is when tragedies and civil wars happen. That's kind of just 301 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.119 that's really interesting the way you put that, because I think, let me 302 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.119 try and sharpen that or have you sharpened it. What I just heard you 303 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.559 say, if I restated is one of the direct criticisms of slavery is you're 304 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.000 governing people without their consent, and today the administrative state sets out to govern 305 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.319 us without our consent. Not exactly slavery, but similar principle at work. 306 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.559 Yeah. Well, and I think also a sort of pre constitutional point as 307 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:11.359 well, because I think the left governs through the administrative state, but also 308 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.400 in a day to day politics. And you see that with the lawfair against 309 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.000 Donald Trump and everything, as though their opponents and really their enemies as they 310 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.680 see it, will disappear if they just take out leadership, right, Like 311 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.440 they imagine that if they get rid of Donald Trump, somehow seventy five million 312 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.359 Trump voters will evaporate. Yeah, or Fox News is the other thing they 313 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.359 hate, right, right. They always think people are basically you know, 314 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.559 they're having a watch spun before their eyes, and they refuse to confront the 315 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.200 actual disagreement and take that seriously. For all the crying about white supremacy and 316 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:48.160 domestic violent terrorism whatever, right, all the crying and the persecution of people 317 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.880 under those banners, they don't have any real appreciation for the fact that if 318 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.599 you push millions and millions of people to the wall hard, that you'll get 319 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:04.039 a pushback outside of the political process. That politics has that like delicate nature 320 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.880 to it, that that in the state of nature will just kill each other 321 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:12.079 over these things. And so that would be kind of the I guess the 322 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:17.079 thing that I'm thinking about a lot with regard to the Civil War or especially 323 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:25.160 the Abraham Lincoln's lyceum address before right, when the government tolerates disorder and essentially 324 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:32.480 heaps uses the law to heap sort of disdain on the people who are actually 325 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:37.759 productive, who are generally law abiding, who are good people, when they 326 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.960 use the law to heap sort of insults upon them and don't and not punish 327 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.799 those who are obviously doing wrongdoing something that I think applies equally by the way, 328 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.720 to John Brown is to abolitionists who refuse to let them know or sorry 329 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.880 the Southern states who allowed or disallowed abolitionist tracks from traveling in the mail. 330 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.359 Right. So I mean, I I think there's a lot of lessons in 331 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:07.400 that kind of breakdown out of politics into war. And then, finally, 332 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.920 because this is why the question was asked, right, because she's from South 333 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:15.960 Carolina, and because she famously took the Stars and Bars down from the state 334 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:23.680 capitol, these modern debates over monuments are framed wrongly. The remarkable thing is 335 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.359 not that America fody civil war over slavery. It's that not only it was 336 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:33.400 able to abolish slavery with extreme amounts of blood, but also that it was 337 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:37.079 able to reunify in a real way after the war. I mean, if 338 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:42.519 you look at you look at other civil wars, haven't It was a very 339 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.400 open question as to whether the United States would really be able to be put 340 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.839 back together again. The fact that you can go from the Civil War and 341 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:56.839 then into the twentieth century where the boys landing on Omaha Beach are overwhelmingly the 342 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:02.240 sons and grandsons of people who would have fought for the South and the Civil 343 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:08.480 War is a remarkable thing. And part of the reason that Lincoln played Dixie 344 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:15.480 right after the surrender at Appomatics is a recognition of that how important it is 345 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.680 to put the country back together and so ripping down the statues that make the 346 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:25.359 South the South, disallowing people from having pride not only in their region, 347 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.920 their state, but in their families, their ancestry is not an act of 348 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.640 justice, or it's an act away from reconciliation. That was really remarkable and 349 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:44.000 again delicate. I guess the watchword from me would be the peace and legitimate 350 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.319 politics are a delicate thing, and we shouldn't we shouldn't be so cavalier about 351 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.039 messing with it because we can see the gallons of blood in the Civil War 352 00:27:52.079 --> 00:28:03.720 that it cost. Let's turned to a second subject that it's actually somewhat related, 353 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.119 which is, if there's anybody who's in some wady's an architect of the 354 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.640 contemporary possibility of civil war and division, it's Woodrow Wilson. And so there's 355 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.240 my old pal. He's not really my pal, but I know David Frump 356 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.640 pretty well, and he's out in the Atlantic in the last twenty four hours 357 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:23.839 with a long article about uncanceling Woodrow Wilson. And oh my goodness, is 358 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:26.319 it a caught awful mess. I don't know if you had any time to 359 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.119 look at it or not. Did you have a chance to look at it, 360 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:37.880 Lucretia, of course, of course, go ahead. It was before 361 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.799 I read it, so sorry, go ahead. Oh just one quick thing. 362 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:42.839 Before I read it, I said, I hope this is not just 363 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.279 because he founded the League of Nations. And then the first sentence or the 364 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:53.319 first paragraph was basically like, well, we need more internationalism. Oh yeah, 365 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.200 and that's why we should rerovibe Woodro Wilson. Sorry, go ahead, 366 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.440 yeah, No, I mean, Dave was a smart guy. And by 367 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.480 the way, let me say one thing in praise of well, first of 368 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:04.920 all, I got to drop some names because it annoys Lucretia and many of 369 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.720 our listeners. I mean, when I lived in Washington, I went to 370 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:12.559 many a party at David's very fine man's up in Upper Georgetown. It's where 371 00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:15.039 I got to meet Christopher Hitchens for the first time. So there, I 372 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.759 just do that to annoy Lucretia. And David did write about twenty years ago 373 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.640 he's always been very good on the immigration question, and he wrote any of 374 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:27.440 you and You're right and several things he's going on, I think. But 375 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.880 in his book on the seventies, How he got here, I think is 376 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.799 pretty good. That's a twenty five year old book he wrote around twenty years 377 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.400 ago. He said, you know, the left keeps saying, I'm paraphrasing 378 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.799 here that anyone who wants to have strict border control as a fascist. But 379 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:47.000 that's what the American people want, and if responsible parties in Washington will not 380 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.200 deliver it, and he meant people in both parties, of course, then 381 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.799 the American people will sooner or later turn to a fascist to get it. 382 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.279 And I don't think he meant that literally, but in other words, he 383 00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.559 was predicting and did say I'm not surprised that Donald Trump has made such progress 384 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.119 on that issue, and he wrote that back in twenty sixteen. So I'll 385 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.119 just give you my grump about the article. You can quarrel with not only 386 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:12.039 internationalism. I think you can quarrel with a lot of his rendition of Wilson 387 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.640 in World War One and certain other things. I think he doesn't have the 388 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.480 story right. But I just quote two things here from the article because I 389 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:22.279 think there's a big omission in the article. So one of things he says, 390 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.400 and i'll quote David here, he says, in our zeal we refuse 391 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.759 to understand past generations as they understood themselves. That, by the way, 392 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.079 you may or may not be familiar in as is the famous interpreted principle of 393 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:38.839 Leo Strauss. Okay, good, this is an article for this whole discussion. 394 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:42.480 I should have gone back and read all my claaramonunt materials from Lincoln Polish. 395 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.359 Well, you know I didn't have to do that necessarily. But look, 396 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:51.680 but the point is is that that is manifestly what David does not do 397 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:55.240 in this article. Because what's missing from the article is the way that Wilson 398 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:02.960 and his other intellectual allies completely trashed the American fact and deliberately set out to 399 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.640 rewire our understanding of the principles of the country in the way the constitutions should 400 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.839 work, setting a stage for aggressivism of all its forms today in the administrative 401 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.440 state and so forth. I mean, Wilson was an open advocate of the 402 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.319 administrative state right and more than any other political figure. I'm not telling you 403 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.200 anything you don't already know is responsible for the mess that we're in. But 404 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:30.119 then one more sentence from David which shows how what he's missing here quote and 405 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:34.519 the gradual progress that the US has made since seventeen eighty seven has all depended 406 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:41.119 on the respect Wilson and other leaders had for the original plan. And he 407 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:42.839 goes on from there, and I no, that's exactly the opposite. He 408 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:48.079 did not respect the original Plan direct As Harvey Mansfield said, Wilson was the 409 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.680 first American president to attack the Constitution. So that's my biggest grump with the 410 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.359 piece. And I can pick lots of other details, but I don't know, 411 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.480 do you have any greatest hits want either one of you you want to 412 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:05.279 pick on. I would just say that from reminds me in some interesting ways 413 00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:12.640 of Wilson. First of all, because he's a Canadian sort of almost forced 414 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:16.599 into becoming a naturalized citizen. Because instead of having any principles about saying, 415 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.319 no, I won't work for Bush, when I find I don't even think 416 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:28.440 he should be president, I've got something backwards there. He worked for Bush, 417 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.000 he was a speech man. No, instead of saying I don't think 418 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.160 he should be president, I don't think. I don't support him, but 419 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.799 I'm going to go work for him anyway or whatever. Anyway. First of 420 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:46.039 all, Canadians should not be commenting on American politics, on American statesmanship. 421 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:52.559 All right, let's leave that aside. Woodrow Wilson. The damage done to 422 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.440 this country by Woodrow Wilson, and not because he was an abject racist and 423 00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:01.480 a filthy you know whatever, the damage he did can never probably be undone. 424 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:06.359 I mean, we have conservatives saying his you know, wow, we 425 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:10.960 need to readopt FDR, and FDR was able to put into practice what Woodrow 426 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:15.759 Wilson wanted to do and couldn't do. The main the problem is, again 427 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:21.920 what I said about the Civil War. Woodrow Wilson did not understand that human 428 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:28.680 nature is fixed, that human nature has a tilos to which all good regimes 429 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:35.759 should be working, and he believed that a human beings were infinitely malleable. 430 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.000 For that reason, we don't need the checks and balances of the Constitution. 431 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:43.839 We need instead a demagogue. He tried to tried very hard not to call 432 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:50.279 it or try to differentiate his idea of leader of the people from a demagogue. 433 00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.359 He tried very hard. He didn't succeed, in my opinion, in 434 00:33:52.839 --> 00:34:00.720 his different writings on the subject. But he is responsible for people like Barack 435 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:06.599 Obama who believe that somehow they are the expression of the will of the people, 436 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:13.199 as opposed to an expression of the people's rationality and what is good for 437 00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.119 the people. We're gonna we are going to use leadership, you know how 438 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:22.000 much I love that word leadership to convince the people what we think is good 439 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.400 for them, and then they'll back us in. That's democracy. That's and 440 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:30.039 so because of Wilson, the whole notion of democracy to the extent that it's 441 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:34.360 anything good at all, which you know, if you're a good federalists you 442 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:37.280 don't believe that, but to the extent that it's any good at all, 443 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.639 it has been so corrupted by Wilson's heirs that it's meaningless, so that we 444 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.119 can say about, for instance, Liz Cheney after she's defeated by sixty percent 445 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:57.000 of the vote in a primary, that democracy is threatened because Liz Cheney didn't 446 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.239 win. So that all of that from Wilson, never mind the administrative state 447 00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:06.559 and all those horrible things. He's responsible for the end of real, genuine 448 00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:10.559 checks and balances, the idea that we should take any institution of our government 449 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:19.159 and turn it into something that advances the the leftist, the progressive project. 450 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.880 All of that he's responsible for, and the idea that David from thinks he 451 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:29.679 should be praised for anything. It was absolutely right. His globalism, his 452 00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:36.679 international view probably equal to the administrative state and the damageed st done of this 453 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.320 country. Yeah, and as do you have any greatest hits from the piece 454 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:45.480 that jumped out you well, really just the predictability of what was going to 455 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:51.559 be praised was funny because I guess I thought, Look, I liked Bobo's 456 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.960 too, all right, Bobo the first Bobo's in paradig is fantastic. The 457 00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:58.880 essay the follow up as well, that was David Brooks. They're easily confused, 458 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.239 but that's okay. Yeah, Wait, Oh yeah, that's a different 459 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:04.639 guy. Yeah, okay, I didn't ask you that David Brooks question. 460 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:08.840 Oh sorry, that was a no. But it was very predictable in terms 461 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:15.159 of like what would be praised. And I'm I'm sort of, I guess 462 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.320 conflicted about the merits of canceling Wilson, Like he's probably the one person I'm 463 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:24.000 not gonna ride in to the fire to try to rescue for a lot of 464 00:36:24.039 --> 00:36:29.559 the reasons that Lucretia said. But yeah, because his philosophy is really the 465 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.920 first of all, the most important thing. Never elect somebody with a PhD 466 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:42.840 the president, absolutely, but the birth of this kind of technocratic use and 467 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:46.800 I think again we see it now of quote our democracy, when in fact 468 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:53.800 the procedures, the administrative takeover of it's politics without politics, and it's actually 469 00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.440 very anti democratic. But there is this this sort of payon to quote unquote 470 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.760 our democracy. I think that that does ring is very Wilsonian, as Lucretius 471 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:07.719 said today. But yeah, I mean there's also this naivete about human nature 472 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:12.440 where he believes that democracy can still steer the ship of state in this sort 473 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.679 of grand way, but the actual details of politics can be reduced to a 474 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.599 science and handed over to experts, Whereas now we see the result of that, 475 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:27.719 which is a ship of state the size of the Titanic directed by the 476 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:34.320 rudder of a dinghy maybe half maybe half broken off at this point. And 477 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:40.280 so there is this like very naive idea that experts and technocrats don't have normative 478 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:45.519 assumptions, that they don't have political assumptions built into what they do. So 479 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.119 think we saw that again a lot during the pandemic, where people were willing 480 00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:57.239 to outsource the actual judgment, you know, in the best case, and 481 00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.880 we didn't have the best case, but in the best case, somebody like 482 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.639 could tell you the virus spreads this way. Turns out theyre wrong about that. 483 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:06.320 A lot of that too. But let's say even in the best case 484 00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:08.079 they do have the correct information, they say it spreads this way, it's 485 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.639 this deadly, it has these risks. Right, Still, there's an element 486 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:17.119 of judgment in politics, in balancing all the other things that are necessary in 487 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.280 a country, in balancing the freedoms of the people, balancing economic concerns. 488 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:28.000 Right there isn't a one technocratic answer, even if you have good inputs. 489 00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:32.719 But I think we saw a lot of that Wilsonianism during the pandemic. That 490 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.960 being said, when you say that Wilson is the root of all of our 491 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.079 problems today, I think he laid the structural groundwork for a lot of the 492 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.920 powers that are exercised. But he would have I mean to the extent that 493 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:51.719 I think Wilson shouldn't be completely canceled. The guy was still very very clearly 494 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.639 American, you know, in a certain way. He had that strong Southern 495 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:01.760 Southern connection for good and bad. I think it was the last American president, 496 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.440 the last American president who grew up in a household with slaves, interesting 497 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:12.480 little biographical detail that most people forget, right and shared with his fellow progressive 498 00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:16.760 Miriam both an admiration for the exact view that we were criticizing in the last 499 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:23.039 topic, right, the Calhounian view of human inequality very strong with the progressives 500 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.760 and naturally tied into their system of government. I think in a way that 501 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.159 the left criticizes sort of superficially, like, oh, look at these terrible 502 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:36.480 racists, but doesn't look at the connections between the sort of government that they 503 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:43.320 would recommend, or somebody like some of the public intellectuals in the South before 504 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.880 the war in the forties and fifties, right, who would recommend Was it 505 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.000 Fitsu who recommended slavery for nine out of ten people? Yeah, that's right. 506 00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.320 Yeah, So you know, I think they don't want to grapple with 507 00:39:53.440 --> 00:40:00.840 the ties between the vision of government and the racism. Right, let me 508 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:07.559 hear simplify that a little bit and say that if you reject human nature and 509 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.840 the basic principle of human equality as we understand it coming say from Jefferson, 510 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:17.320 it's very easy to be either a racist in the fits you or the Calhoun 511 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:23.599 or whatever you want to say mode, or in the Imbram Candy mode. 512 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:29.280 Right. I mean, if we are not talking about fundamental human nature, 513 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:34.719 the idea that nature did not make rulers unruled, and all of the things 514 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.440 that flow from that, then you can just pick whoever you want to be 515 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:40.559 on top at any moment, and you can pick whatever the category should be. 516 00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:44.519 And you know, it was race for the longest time, and then 517 00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:49.079 sex. I hate the word gender, and now it's of course, you 518 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:54.320 know, sexual orientation or sexual identification, and God only knows what it'll be 519 00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:00.119 after that. That will become the you know, the the white supremacist that 520 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:06.239 we're going to promote to the top of the food chain this week, because 521 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.760 you can do that when you deny fundamental human nature. Yeah. So my 522 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:14.280 objection, I think, though, to what you said, Steve, is 523 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.440 I'm not sure that the essence of today's left and the problems that America has 524 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:24.719 really Wilsonian. There are certainly with Wilsonian elements and the structure of the government 525 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.480 that allows them to implement much of what they want while circumventing real small d 526 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:36.639 democracy and democratic will. That's Willsonian. But the content of it, I 527 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.599 think is much more new left in the nineteen sixties. You know, I 528 00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:43.320 know some people like Sarah buch Mari or whoever, like We'll say, the 529 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.960 problem goes all the way back to Jefferson. I really see the roots of 530 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:57.639 the current woke age or whatever in the sixties in actual normative substance rather than 531 00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:00.280 in like structure. Well, two things, and then I wanted to shift 532 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:06.039 gears here because John Hinderrocker is joining us. First of all, I didn't 533 00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:07.840 tell you this, And as we ban the word normative from this podcast, 534 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:14.639 it's just our hatred of social science. I'm kind of kidding, but I 535 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.559 banned from my classrooms. Actually, I think Lucretia does too. It's fine, 536 00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:22.000 I mean, know what you mean, but using it as a positive 537 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:23.840 in the sense that there must be you can give me a different word, 538 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:29.039 but there there must be a positive vision of the good. And we talk 539 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.480 about politics is purely procedural. A lot of the time, we're still probably 540 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:36.239 about Max Baber and all the rest of that. But now you're Roger point 541 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.239 though I actually agree with you that Wilson simply crystallizes a lot of things that 542 00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:43.519 were bubbling up before him. The attack on the founding on a natural right 543 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.639 that was that was exploding in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, but as 544 00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:51.920 a contingent manner. Without Wilson, who knows whether it would have galloped a 545 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:59.119 him. All right, John Hinderocker joins us. Now we want to catch 546 00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:00.519 up on some news. But for John, say hello to Anes Stepman, 547 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:06.440 who you've not met before. Lucretia, you know. But and then listeners 548 00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.519 if you're reading the site or even seeing the news elsewhere, because it's making 549 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:15.039 news internationally. John, your office was firebomb and that was no little trash 550 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:20.159 can fire or little bonfire outside the door. I'm shocked at the photos. 551 00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:22.239 I've been in your office. I know that building, and that was a 552 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:27.880 serious uh uh. This was no mayor prank. This was something really serious. 553 00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:29.760 What's the latest? What can you tell us about what you know? 554 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.000 And you know where things stand? Well, let me just back up for 555 00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.159 a moment, Steve and start with the basics. So what happened a week 556 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:38.320 ago tonight? It was two o'clock in the morning, Saturday night, actually 557 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:45.079 early Sunday morning. Some person's unknown person or person's unknown broke into the building 558 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:51.079 where American Experiment and two other conservative organizations are located, a lot with lots 559 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:55.440 of other small businesses. So there are chiropractors and psychologists and financial advisors and 560 00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.639 so on. Can I just jump in, John and say that you know, 561 00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:04.519 you're it's like a six story building, eight story something like three stories. 562 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.280 It's three story. It's a good sized building, but it's only three 563 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.920 stories high, and it's part of a complex of three buildings. But the 564 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.119 remote from that business park is remote from downtown. I mean, this is 565 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.440 not something that people someone really had to go to a lot of trouble to 566 00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:20.960 single out your building and get oh yeah, well, somebody somebody hates our 567 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.199 organizations. I'm guessing they hate mine the most were by far the biggest, 568 00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:29.320 you know, and we operate across the broadest range of issues. But somebody 569 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.119 went to the trouble. It's not hard, you know, we all have 570 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.280 our addresses online, so somebody figured it out. We used to joke about 571 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:38.360 this, you know. Our building is really the epicenter of the conservative movement 572 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:42.360 of Minnesota. If the liberals were smart, they would vombit, you know. 573 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.400 We used to say that as a joke. Well, they put two 574 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.400 and two together. So somebody broke into our building about two o'clock in the 575 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:53.519 morning, and it's easy to reconstruct the crime. They were at the south 576 00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:57.320 end of the building, so they would have started on the third floor. 577 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:02.239 They had a plan to to to commit arson in the office of the Upper 578 00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:07.519 Midwest Law Center and in our office, and I think the Office of Take 579 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:13.239 Charge, which is a black run organization targeted mainly to black young people. 580 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.960 You know, be a victor, not a victim, you know, that 581 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.400 kind of thing. So I think all three organizations were targeted. So the 582 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.519 only way to do this would be to start on the third floor. If 583 00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:24.280 you started the first flaw, you're blocking your exit, you know, start 584 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:29.239 the floor. And they had time, you know, they wanted to do 585 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:30.960 this quickly, but they had some time at that point. So they actually 586 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:37.840 broke into that office and they started the fire inside the office of the Upper 587 00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:40.519 Midwest Lawsuit. It's only four people, you know, who use that who 588 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:45.599 used that office, and we know that accelerants were used. I assume all 589 00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:47.800 that means is they had a couple of cans of gasoline. They poured gasoline 590 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.320 all over it, a couple of matches. That office is completely destroyed, 591 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.800 completely destroyed. They then ran Now they're on the clock. You see now 592 00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.960 that once they started that fire, now the time agains credit because somebody's going 593 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:04.079 to see the flames, see the smoke, call the fire department, call 594 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.280 the police. So now they're in a hurry. So they run down the 595 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:12.960 steps to the first floor, and they're right close to that south exit that 596 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:17.320 they broke into in the first place. So now they use again accelerants, 597 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.519 as we are told, And I think all that means is a can of 598 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:24.199 gasoline. You know. I think they just doused that end of that third 599 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:30.559 or so or half of the corridor with gasoline or maybe some other accelerant, 600 00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:34.360 you know, lit a couple of matches and ran out that same south door 601 00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.360 that they had broken in through. So that's fundamentally what happened. It was 602 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:43.639 obviously arson when you have two separate fires completely to stake no damage on the 603 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.199 second floor. You got one on the first floor one on the third floor. 604 00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.880 The first responders knew that it was arson. That was never a question, 605 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.719 and they immediately contacted ATF alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, which news 606 00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:00.360 to me, But they do fire investigations and the FBI. Those agencies have 607 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:05.519 been on the case from the very beginning. The way they have divided it 608 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:09.679 up is that ATF is doing the fire investigation per se, so they're documenting 609 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:14.639 you know, points of origin, use of accelerants, that kind of thing, 610 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:19.440 and FBI is in charge of finding the perpetrators. And I have been 611 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:24.400 cooperating closely with the FBI and trying to identify potential suspects. Yeah. I 612 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.559 mean they I don't know anything about how this is actually done, but I'm 613 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:31.119 guessing they're not telling you very much because they want to keep you know, 614 00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:34.679 Look, you're a media person. You're going to be on TV and all 615 00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:37.039 the rest of that, And I don't want you blabbing too much, I 616 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:39.079 suppose, but do you what do you know? Do you know anything? 617 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.119 So far? Or well? They've been reasonably forthcoming. I don't know, 618 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.000 of course what they're not telling me, but I think they're keeping us pretty 619 00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:51.239 much in the loop. One thing, one of the FBI guys told me, 620 00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:53.880 we have a camera. There were no cameras in this in these corridors. 621 00:47:54.679 --> 00:48:00.039 There's very little security in this complex, virtually none, but we and 622 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:01.440 a soda nice, right, you guys are too nice up there, right, 623 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:05.400 yeah, okay, yeah, well or cheap, I don't know what, 624 00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.480 but any of it. We have a camera inside our office that points 625 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:12.920 at the door. Now, these guys didn't break into our office, you 626 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.719 know. They were trying to get two for the price of one by setting 627 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:17.480 the corridor on fire, I'm sure hoping that it would, you know, 628 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:22.519 spread into our office as well as the take charge office, which we subleased 629 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:28.000 to them, actually across the across the hall. But what happened was that 630 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.199 the fire department got there really very quickly, and they got the fire put 631 00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:36.400 out before it made its way through the what do you call it? You 632 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:40.159 know, there's this very solid wall there, you know, very solid and 633 00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:45.400 and and so our office didn't burn, but we've got a couple of inches 634 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:47.280 of water and there's you know, smoke damage and all that kind of thing. 635 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:52.199 So so we have a camera and it's pointed at the door, and 636 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.079 there's a there's a thin glass panel next to the door. And one of 637 00:48:55.079 --> 00:49:00.719 the FBI guys didn't tell me they got they got the footage from our video 638 00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:01.679 camera. I'm not even sure where they got it, but they did. 639 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:06.719 They didn't get it from me, but he told me that you could actually 640 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:15.880 see some of this arson activity through that little window into the corridor. Interesting, 641 00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:16.960 we know, and this is the most important thing we know in terms 642 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.800 of catching the culprit, at least I think it is for sure. Just 643 00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:27.519 when I first read about it, I thought, well, lucky thing, 644 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.039 John wasn't there. But it was at two in the morning, and so 645 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:31.920 you wouldn't have been there on a Saturday night either, So it really was 646 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.519 just an arson. It wasn't not really a violent attempt against you or any 647 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:40.480 of your employees or anything like that. I mean, obviously wanted to do 648 00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.480 it at a time when there wasn't anybody around and they wouldn't get caught, 649 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:47.320 you know. Yeah, I'll hold that thought from it. The other question, 650 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:51.239 John, is I know you were going all week and if we have 651 00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.320 time, maybe we'll say one minute about the Trialey you're covering in DC. 652 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:58.920 But it happened last weekend, but you didn't didn't tell us about this or 653 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.840 didn't write about until on Thursday, I think, And so why did you 654 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:06.159 wait? Was it a reason for waiting or we want to wait till investigation 655 00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.920 got rolling, or you know, what were you holding back from us? 656 00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:12.960 John? Well, I did wait for just a couple of days. And 657 00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:17.920 the reason I did that is because my hope was that the ATF or FBI 658 00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:22.920 would make an official public announcement that this was an arsen We all knew it 659 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:27.199 was. I was talking to them and no question about that, but I 660 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.880 thought it would be advantageous if they gave a press conference, you know, 661 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.119 let then announce to the public this arson was committed and then and then we 662 00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:38.440 weigh in. They didn't do that, and it was clear to me that 663 00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:44.320 they didn't have any intention of doing anything public for a while, and so 664 00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:46.400 we as well as other groups, thought, well, what the heck, 665 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:50.760 we may as well jump in and start talking. Now. Is the whole 666 00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:54.079 building shut down? I mean, the whole building is shut down. It 667 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.199 remains to be seen what, if ever, that whole building is going to 668 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:02.719 reopen. I mean, fire is unbelievably destructive and so is water right and 669 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:07.119 remediation of that building I think is going to take, you know, six 670 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:12.719 months if you optimistically assume it can be remediated. But I want to make 671 00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:15.639 this point those step because I think it's important in terms of catching the culprits. 672 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:20.000 And by the way, one person could have carried out this crime. 673 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:25.840 And I'm no expert on crime, right, but my feeling is that it 674 00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:30.679 would be really extraordinary for one person to do this. I think that you 675 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:37.360 would need two people to egg each other on, you know, and to 676 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:40.400 feel like they are representing some kind of a group. But let's come back 677 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:45.360 to that thought, because I've given they by some ideas about who these perpetrators 678 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.079 might be. But in terms of catching them, I think the most salient 679 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.920 point. For one of the first questions I asked the FBI guys, are 680 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:59.719 there cameras on the frontage rope? Okay, so our office is located off 681 00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:04.360 oftage road, which is parallel to a major highway that runs west out of 682 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:08.719 the city of Minneapolis. We're three or four miles west of Minneapolis, and 683 00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:13.920 south of our building. There's a there's a lake, you know, a 684 00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:19.159 small lake. Remember, there isn't there isn't really any practical way to get 685 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.159 to our building without driving on this frontage room. You know, you just 686 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:24.039 I don't know how you would do it, you know, paddle a canoe 687 00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.159 with your gasoline cans of the canoe. I don't know. But it's the 688 00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.760 only practical way to get to the building. And so in the first question, 689 00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:37.280 I asked the FBI guys, are there cameras on the frontage and he 690 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:42.599 said, yes, there are. No, I haven't gotten any further information 691 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:44.960 about about it. At the time I was talking to him, he had 692 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:47.320 not yet seen the footage from those cameras. But at two o'clock in the 693 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:52.159 morning, you know, the number of cars driving on that frontage road, 694 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.199 I'm sure you could count on your fingers, you know, at the most. 695 00:52:55.480 --> 00:53:00.760 And so if those cameras are sharp enough to pick license plate numbers, 696 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:06.599 as they should be, we might very well have a very small universe of 697 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.239 suspects. Well, so this lucreaksous point that, well, they weren't trying 698 00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:15.199 to actually harm any human beings by doing the middle of the night. Maybe 699 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:19.159 that's right. I don't know. I my mind runs back to the late 700 00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.119 sixties and early seventies when there was a wave of bombings around the country, 701 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:25.119 some of which were fatal, you know, the bomb at the University of 702 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:29.199 Wisconsin that killed a graduated students, and some of those were you know, 703 00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:32.360 the weather underground deliberately did want to hurt people, you know, the plan 704 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:36.199 bombing at four Dix, things like that. I am wondering if, for 705 00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:38.280 an no how back to that. It seems to me that having sacked the 706 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:45.559 police station in Minnesota during the George Floyd Jamboree, Antifa type people or maybe 707 00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:47.360 Antifa itself, has said, oh, maybe it's time to start targeting these 708 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:52.039 conservative groups. And you know, what begins as a middle of the night 709 00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:55.360 bombing or arson might not end there. And so I don't know. I'm 710 00:53:55.400 --> 00:54:00.960 very I think this is the foreboding of some a step increase of bad things 711 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:04.440 happening. I'm sure you've gotten death threats over the years. I have a 712 00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:06.760 guide in a lot of them, but I've gotten some. You know, 713 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:10.400 I've never taken them. I've never taken him seriously. I know we're both 714 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:15.559 bummed. Steve and I are both bumbed because John, you gets them all 715 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.559 the time, and Steve and I don't. So but also I do how 716 00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:22.679 well I know how well armed you are, John, And that's a bad 717 00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:27.679 idea. Yeah, yeah, you got a point there, So so you 718 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.519 know, I've never taken those seriously. But what I will say is that 719 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.039 there is a huge difference between getting attacked on Twitter, you know, or 720 00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:42.079 an email or a comment and somebody firebombing your office. That is a big, 721 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.239 big difference. I think one thing that's going on, Steve, is 722 00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:50.920 that these leftists have concluded that they can get away with almost anything. I 723 00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:55.800 think it's the kind of escalation of violence that becomes inevitable if you don't have 724 00:54:55.960 --> 00:55:00.960 strong law enforcements. So, as everybody knows, we had the George Floyd 725 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:05.159 riots and they burned down the Third Precinct station. It's never been rebuilt. 726 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.480 They went on for days before our governor you know, called in the called 727 00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:14.199 in the National Guard and finally put an end to it. And we have 728 00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:17.599 a were Our office is located in Hendupon County, which includes Minneapolis and some 729 00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:22.880 suburbs. The county attorney we've hend up In County ran on a platform of 730 00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:29.280 not prosecuting criminals and one handling. And you know, we've got the kind 731 00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:31.800 of revolving door that you hear about in New York City, you know, 732 00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:37.400 right, And I think I think a lot of bad people have looked around 733 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:38.800 and said, you know, what the hell, you know, what can't 734 00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:42.280 we get away with? Yeah? So, and as you do, you 735 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.800 want to get into the question or comment for John, And before you do, 736 00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:50.039 let me add that you had a great tweet yesterday that about the people 737 00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:52.280 protesting out in front of the Holocaust Museum, blocking the road and washing the 738 00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:57.719 Holocaust museum. And did you say you said something like it was What this 739 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:00.760 was about is showing who's in charge. It's not really the issue, but 740 00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:04.000 we're in charge of the city. And that's it fits with your point, 741 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:06.239 John, that people think they get away with anything, so they're going to 742 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:07.199 try to get away with it anyway. And that did you want to ask 743 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.599 or say, make a comment on this whole business? So yeah, I 744 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:15.199 think I just retweeted that was actually my husband. But yeah, yeah, 745 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:19.039 it's a great part, but I don't think I was the one that made 746 00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.079 it well, no, I was okay, anyway, go ahead, and 747 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:27.840 is no, I mean, I completely agree that there's a very I mean, 748 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:31.599 they're related, obviously, but they're also related in a very pragmatic way, 749 00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:37.840 which is one is the ideological breakdown in law and order and in arresting 750 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:43.920 people who have obviously committed crimes, and the other is the escalation of political 751 00:56:43.960 --> 00:56:49.280 violence. And I think those two things are probably gonna interact badly going forward. 752 00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:52.159 But I'm really sorry I hadn't heard about this. I'm really sorry that 753 00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:53.360 that is, like, as you say that, there's a big jump from 754 00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:57.760 I mean, to get a lot of like death threats and from angry zoomers 755 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:00.760 on Twitter. And I'm really not worried about that at all, because most 756 00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:06.679 of them seem incapable of leaving the house without somebody affirming them every step of 757 00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:08.679 the way, so you know, imagining that they could do something serious is 758 00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:15.079 quite remote, but that that has got to fuel very not like I guess 759 00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:17.800 I don't want to insult you by saying that you feel vulnerable in that way, 760 00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:22.599 but it is it's a more direct threat than you know, kind of 761 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.679 you can imagine a lot of jag offs on the internet, but that this 762 00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:31.800 is it's got to be very disquieting. Yeah, I was thinking that the 763 00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:39.360 more disquieting part would be not just the lack of law enforcement execution against perpetrators 764 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:45.239 of those kinds of crimes. But I wonder, were you to take anything 765 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:49.159 into your own hands that was slightly outside of the law, John, if 766 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:52.199 they wouldn't come after you with guns blaring. And I'm sure you get what 767 00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:58.519 I mean by that. Which is my problem is these days less with the 768 00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:02.199 lack of law enforcement, but the very biased and one sided law enforcement that 769 00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:05.840 seems to me. Well, let me make a couple of comments on that, 770 00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:12.079 Lucretia. One, I think we are going to get full support from 771 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:15.320 the authorities, or are getting full support from the authorities in this case. 772 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:20.159 We are a very well respected organization, and if I can say so modestly, 773 00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.039 I'm a pretty well known guy. And I got a very nice call 774 00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:28.400 from the United States Attorney for the District of Minnesota giving me his personal cell 775 00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:31.519 phone number, saying he's appalled at what's happened. You know, this fire 776 00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:37.800 bombing, saying that he is he is following the case closely. You know, 777 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:43.039 we're getting strong attention from the FBI, and anytime I want anything, 778 00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:46.800 need anything, I should call him directly. Right. I don't think we're 779 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.679 going to have you know, one sided law enforcement here. I think I 780 00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:55.119 think they're going to do their best to catch these perpetrators. As far as 781 00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:00.000 physical danger, you know, we have a We're one of the few policy 782 00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:05.679 organizations. We've got a policy fellow who specializes in public safety and criminal justice. 783 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:10.400 And he is a thirty three year veteran of the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office. 784 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:15.679 He retired as a captain at that time, the fourth highest ranking person 785 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:21.000 in that office. He has spent years on the street. He has arrested 786 00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:28.039 countless criminals. He is adept with firearms. He is a big, tough 787 00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:32.239 guy, and he knows, you know, he recognizes dangerous situations in a 788 00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:35.599 way that the rest of us don't. You know, we haven't lived our 789 00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:38.960 lives, you know, coping with danger. Well, David Zimmer has. 790 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:43.119 He's a great guy. And so one of the things I just haven't had 791 00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.559 time to do, partly because I was in Washington most of speak last week 792 00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:49.800 is I really want to sit down with David and I want to get his 793 00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:54.559 thoughts on physical security, you know, for our organization. You know, 794 00:59:54.599 --> 01:00:00.440 I've got to carry permit. In recent years, I have rarely carried you 795 01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:02.519 know, a firearm. I may start doing that again. I may start 796 01:00:02.599 --> 01:00:06.639 routinely. You know, after the last time I got a death threat, 797 01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:10.719 which the police that thought was you know, relatively serious, I carried a 798 01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:15.000 gone to the office for for a couple of weeks, just in case. 799 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:19.119 And I might start doing that again routinely. I don't know. But but 800 01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:21.880 you know, we are going to be going to be looking at issues of 801 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.599 security. But I don't you know, having said that, no, I 802 01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:30.360 don't feel unsafe at all. You know, my phone number has listed my 803 01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:35.800 The address of my house is you know, well known. It's not it's 804 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:42.320 not hidden in any way. And I I have never actually felt unsafe. 805 01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:45.960 All right, let's let's do one last question on a different subject. John. 806 01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:49.360 Just briefly, you mentioned you're in Washington, and you're there for a 807 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:52.440 lot of reasons, but a lot of it is attending the libel trial of 808 01:00:52.760 --> 01:01:00.000 Michael Mann against Mark Stein and Ran Simberg. We'll do a whole separate show 809 01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:01.119 this. By the way, because there's a lot to be said about that. 810 01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:05.960 You're not the Francis Menton is writing some great pieces on this. Just 811 01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:08.239 give us a very brief summ review of how you think this is going. 812 01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:13.239 And by the way, I'm calling this the Scopes Monkey Trial of our century 813 01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:15.519 with the roles reversed a little bit, if you can follow my meaning there. 814 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:20.599 But what my impression is is this is going very badly for Man. 815 01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:23.480 Is that right? Well, let's not, you know, I hope, 816 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.840 so, I hope. So let me just start by saying that you can 817 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.639 view the trial online the court. This is the Superior Court, Washington, 818 01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:37.920 d C. The court has cameras and audio and anybody can sign in and 819 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:42.480 view it online. As I've had time, the trial's looking on for a 820 01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:45.719 couple of weeks now, and as I've had time, I have periodically tuned 821 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:50.039 in, so I heard things like Mark Stein's opening statement. I heard some 822 01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:55.119 of Man's direct testimony. I heard most of Mark's pro see cross examination of 823 01:01:55.199 --> 01:02:00.679 them, which is you know, we went. I hope this all ends 824 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:04.559 up on YouTube. This sounds just anyway, Sorry, John device of admission 825 01:02:04.719 --> 01:02:07.480 but then I went out there and I spent a couple of days. I 826 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.280 had other meetings, but I spent most of my time for a couple of 827 01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:12.440 days in the courtroom, which is kind of fun. As you know, 828 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:15.360 Steve, I did nothing but litigation for forty one years. I tried many 829 01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:19.599 jury cases all over the country. This is the longest I've spent in a 830 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:23.199 courtroom since I left the law business at the end of twenty fifteen and started 831 01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:28.159 running a nonprofit. So it's kind of fun for me, in a stress 832 01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:30.440 free way to be back in a courtroom. Kivincing a little bit, I 833 01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:35.039 will say this, there is no one in that courtroom who has more than 834 01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:42.559 a nodding acquaintance with the rules of evidence. This is one of many areas 835 01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:45.800 of American life where standards have gone downhill. So how is it going? 836 01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:50.960 You can't really opine on how a trial is going when you've only seen maybe 837 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:55.760 a third of it. Okay, you know, I don't know. This 838 01:02:55.840 --> 01:03:00.480 is there's a reason why man and his lawyers venued this case in Washington, 839 01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:04.679 d C. They could have put it anywhere, and they chose Washington, 840 01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.320 d C. And that's because they knew that they would get a jury of 841 01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:13.360 registered Democrats who are politically aware, who are liberal, and who in all 842 01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:22.320 probability have swallowed the climate uh theory whole. And and so one of the 843 01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:24.880 things I wanted to do is spend a lot of time just observing the jury 844 01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:30.119 and trying to size that jurors reactions. The problem with that is, having 845 01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:32.400 spent you know, years of my life doing this, it's very hard to 846 01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:36.760 tell what a jury is thinking. You know, it's very very open, 847 01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:39.760 and occasionally you think you get a glimpse, but like is not, You're 848 01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:44.960 wrong. You know, this is a relatively young jury. There are there 849 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.360 are tenderers. Nine of them are registered Democrats, one of them is actually 850 01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:53.880 a Republican. All of them believe you know in quote climate change close quote. 851 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:59.320 And you know, it's a it's it's a very uphill it's a very 852 01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:02.079 uphill process. You know, Michael Mann is the eminent scientist, you know, 853 01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:09.480 the famous guru of climate. You know, I would have said it 854 01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:13.760 before the trial started that that Mark and Ran Simberg had only a very very 855 01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:18.760 very very slim chance of winning the jury verdict. Having having followed, you 856 01:04:18.800 --> 01:04:23.199 know more of the you know, some of the trial, I would up 857 01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:28.119 that I think they've now got more than just a fighting chance. Michael Man 858 01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:33.400 comes across as very thin skinned, as not very in my opinion, not 859 01:04:33.719 --> 01:04:39.960 very likable. And and Mark made a comment in his opening statement that I 860 01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:45.320 told him, in my opinion, is his winning theme, and that is 861 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.239 Michael Mann is a guy who loves to dish it out but can't take it. 862 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:53.760 And one of the things that's come out is that is that man is 863 01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:59.199 just vicious in talking about other people. You know, he smears them wantonly. 864 01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:04.760 There's an email where he passes on a false sexual rumor about Judith curR 865 01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:11.679 current right, just science al happens to disagree with him, and Judith is 866 01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:15.239 going to testify at the trial. She spent all last week in d C 867 01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:17.400 without ever getting on the stand. And if you ever met Judith Curry, 868 01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:23.559 I'll just say, you know, this is not a plausible smear. It's 869 01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:30.599 not It's crazy. And so I think I think that's something as a basic 870 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:34.599 point of fairness that is going to come through to the jury. Another fact 871 01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:39.199 that came out that could be it's not technically relevant, but it could be 872 01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:43.920 relevant in how the jury thinks about the case. Michael Man hasn't spent a 873 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:48.599 penny his lawyers. Three law firms have been working on his behalf for twelve 874 01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:53.519 years, hasn't cost him a nickel. Now they might be working on a 875 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:58.159 contingent fee arrangement. I very much doubt that. My assumption is that, 876 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:02.280 like Hunter Biden, he's got a sugar brother who's paying the bills. Mark 877 01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:06.760 told me how much he's spent on his defense. Yeah, and you know, 878 01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:12.079 it's just this is this is ruinous, and we don't and we don't 879 01:06:12.119 --> 01:06:15.320 know who's paying Man's legal fees. Right, that's still I don't know's I 880 01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:19.400 mean, I suspect it's Tom Steyer, maybe sol Us in one of his 881 01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:23.760 units, but tom Steyer will be my first nominee. Ye who knows, 882 01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:27.280 And there's no entitlement to find that out. But everybody in the courtroom I 883 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:30.119 could tell you it was stub and Michael Mann said that he hadn't spent any 884 01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:33.800 money in twelve years of litigation. And another thing, it's kind of funny, 885 01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:36.840 and again it's this framing of Michael Mann. You know, who is 886 01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:43.519 this guy and what is his reputation? He was obsessed with this false claim 887 01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:45.639 that he was a Nobel Prize winner. Oh, yes, that's right, 888 01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:49.840 but he actually had to put out a statement saying that Michael Man is not 889 01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:56.840 in fact a Nobel Prize war yet. And you know, in the original 890 01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:01.679 version of the complaint, it'll in this case alleged three times that Michael Mann, 891 01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:06.480 the Nobel Prize winner you know, was defamed by these people. They 892 01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:12.679 later amended the complaint to take that allegation out because it was it was false. 893 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:16.360 But one of the things in evidence is a long email thread between Michael 894 01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:27.960 Mann and editors of Wikipedia where he is bombarding Wick with demands that his bio 895 01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:33.599 be changed to reflect his status as a Nobel Prize or yet. I mean, 896 01:07:33.639 --> 01:07:38.360 the man is just you know, he's just an awful human being. 897 01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:41.960 Well all right, well sorry, John, we're running along here, but 898 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:45.039 we'll have you back for when it's over, a complete recap of it, 899 01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:50.559 and also, you know, the sequel to what's happening with certain pyrotechnic developments 900 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:54.159 in Minnesota. But we need to draw to an end and stick around for 901 01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:56.920 a second. John, You might have a thought or two, and we 902 01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:59.719 usually end things as we have some fun. We usually try and pick out 903 01:07:59.719 --> 01:08:01.800 the Lake this ridiculous thing. Kambel Harris has said, I haven't had time 904 01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:06.559 to do that this week, and then Lucreatia shares her favorite Babylon B headlines 905 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:09.920 of the week, and then we close pretty quickly. I don't know if 906 01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:12.840 you've listened to this lately, John, but Lucretia, do you have any 907 01:08:12.840 --> 01:08:15.720 Babylon BE headlines for us for the week? Yes? I do, indeed, 908 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:25.399 Uh Biden Sorry, nation has a vague distant memory of some old rule 909 01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:30.600 where the president just couldn't declare Warren anyone it wanted to. We didn't even 910 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:33.640 get to that topic. As you know, where's my Nikki my Nikki? 911 01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:42.680 Hayley uh uh insists that we not make peace in the Middle East. That's 912 01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:49.520 Joe Biden sees Shadow attempts to shake his hand. Majorca says, how can 913 01:08:49.520 --> 01:08:56.079 he be impeached when he hasn't done anything that's right on the money, right, 914 01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:59.319 And then I'll sort of leave it at this one. Oh wait, 915 01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:02.159 wait, wait, surprise, We at the Babylon B would like to reveal 916 01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:08.760 that Fetterman has been doing a bit for us all along. Well, it's 917 01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:11.680 starting to see that way, isn't it good? Gret what a surprise that 918 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:15.439 has been. I know that's when you said at our our New Year's Eve 919 01:09:16.199 --> 01:09:21.960 podcast that despite all of the places that we were wrong on our predictions for 920 01:09:23.079 --> 01:09:26.600 twenty twenty three, not one of us the wrongest we all were was not 921 01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:30.359 one of us could have predicted that John Fetterman would become our favorite Democratic senator. 922 01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:33.720 So that's all right, right, right the pat and point the hand 923 01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:36.560 of our times, right we all right? Well, thanks for jumping in, 924 01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:40.000 John, I know you've got a ton of media coming. Thanks and 925 01:09:40.119 --> 01:09:43.119 us for joining us. This has been really fun. And listeners, you 926 01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:46.800 should add high Noon to your podcast rotation. And with that, I have 927 01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:49.720 to give John's end of this too. We usually end by saying, John 928 01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:54.720 Hughes, which is what is always drink your whiskey, neat, Let's go 929 01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:59.840 Brandon and God saved the Queen Man began and all the Joe Biden's greatest hits 930 01:09:59.840 --> 01:10:25.199 the we were talking about. Are we down? No mngos somethody it happened. 931 01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:57.640 Time we learned we shouldn't fine you find me? So time Ricochet join 932 01:10:57.720 --> 01:10:58.399 the conversation.