WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:14.919 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Read and from 2 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:21.920 London Laurent Sagalan. Today on readefin Energy, we're going to talk about EV 3 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:27.399 charging, about time, Lauren. Yes, yeah. The two limiting factors 4 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:34.200 for faster department of evs are the price of vehicles and the famous range anxiety. 5 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.640 On one hand, we see the price of cars going down and the 6 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:42.359 price of batteries going down, but there's also a lot of things happening in 7 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:46.200 the EV charging space. Well, absolutely, guys. We have to make 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:50.960 it easier for customers, easier and quicker for customers to charge. And I 9 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:55.439 think anyone who has had an EV has experienced this range anxiety. But first 10 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.600 of all, from our partner Aquin, the Capital is a sustainable investment company 11 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.799 headquarter ordered in Hamburg, Germany. I quit a capital invest in realisets such 12 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.840 as clean energy, sustainable infrastructure, energy efficiency and growth private equity on behalf 13 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.640 of its clients. Yes, John, and you would believe that such an 14 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:19.519 opportunity would be grasped by utilities or oil companies. They haven't done much in 15 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:25.560 the autermotive sector. Only Tesla has is the opportunity so in the gap that 16 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:32.599 was created, some entrepreneur jumped in and we see a lot of independently developed 17 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:37.599 EV charging networks. Thank god, because you're absolutely right if you were relying 18 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:41.200 on some of these utilities and oil companies, and I think we'd be here 19 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:46.359 from other century about the way. The crazy thing. I can get my 20 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:52.079 head around the oil companies, but the utilities they sell electricity, they have 21 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.799 grids. Why aren't they doing more? It's unbelievable. And when they do, 22 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.480 the chargers are just not good enough. And I'm just not going to 23 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.920 name name basically all the big utilities, and they're just awesome, absolutely awful. 24 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.599 And I've been driving an EV for many years at this point in time. 25 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:15.680 Yeah, So our guest today is Toddington Harper is the CEO of grit 26 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.759 Serve, which is a leading you get charging network. I'm looking forward to 27 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.280 having on the show. Toddington. Great to have you on the show. 28 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.879 It's awesome to be here. Well, listen, maybe i'd like to kick 29 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:30.759 off. Listen. I've been driving an EV for many years and I'm just 30 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:38.479 fed up of the quality of the EV charging infrastructure, right, And actually 31 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:39.960 I just said something happen the other day, and I won't name the name 32 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:45.240 of the utility, but like, I will never go to their EV chargers. 33 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:49.080 They keep telling me they have one hundred and twenty kW, and I 34 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:52.879 never get more than fifty and sometimes you get forty and it's just so frustrating. 35 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.319 But then actually I opened a Tesla account the other day and I started 36 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.840 charging my BMW a Tesla and it was just it's just game change. I 37 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:02.120 just went, Oh, my god, why can't they all be like that? 38 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.319 So I suppose that's my question to you, why can they Why can't 39 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.360 EV chargers be like the Tesla charges. I don't know if you've checked out 40 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.960 any of the new electric superharbs or electric four courts that grids of have been 41 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.800 delivering recently, but I would suggest they are a lot of what we're doing 42 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:21.120 is pretty world class. I guess to put some things in perspective for you, 43 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:24.039 I'm now ten years in on my EV journey this year. Bought my 44 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:29.520 first electric car in twenty fourteen, and I experienced a lot of challenges along 45 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:31.879 the way along the journey, and so with kind of all of that experience 46 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:36.240 that I garnered over, you know, lots of experiences I made it a 47 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:38.400 real commitment that what we were going to livel as well class charging infrastructure, 48 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:43.280 and so every single charger that we've put into the ground has had contactless payment 49 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.759 as a starting point. People can turn up, plug in, get the 50 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.000 vehicle charged. And actually the majority of what we're focusing are three hundred and 51 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.080 fifty killer what charges and if you look at what grids have have done over 52 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:57.240 the last three years, started by launching Braintree Electric four Court, which is 53 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.639 probably one of the most awesome pieces of electric charging infrastructure that exists at the 54 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.879 time, which was subsequently built on it. But shortly after that we then 55 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:09.080 acquired the Electric Highway, which was a ten year old charging network, great 56 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.439 locations across motorways, but very old chargers. What we did is one hundred 57 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.759 and thirty days after acquiring that network, we've changed the charges on one hundred 58 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.240 and thirty sites. That meant we couldn't upgrade the grid that those sites. 59 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.160 We were still capped the amount of power that was available, but at least 60 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.639 the charges worked and they were reliable. Subsequently, what we've been doing is 61 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.360 we've been upgrading those sites with huge numbers of what we call electric superhubs. 62 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.040 So these are groups of chargers, typically six or more charging bays three hundred 63 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.759 and fifty and now three hundred and sixty killer what charges with brand new grid 64 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.800 connections that can push huge amounts of power. We have dynamic power as well, 65 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:46.399 so if there is a limited grid connection, we can assign the amount 66 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.680 of power that's available to the right charger when it's needed. We've been boosting 67 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.519 sites with batteries. We've been building solar farms to generate clean energy and provide 68 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:58.199 net zero energy for the network. We're now charging almost two hundred thousand vehicles 69 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.480 every single month with clean energy. We've got a very reliable network and I 70 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.000 think if you take a journey across the motorway network across the UK and please 71 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.879 do this, and you stop at any electric superhubs, you know, hopefully 72 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.079 you will get a lot of confidence about what we're doing and actually give more 73 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.560 confidence for people who haven't yet made that transition to be able to do so 74 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:19.040 well well does it? Thank you very much? The podcast it's finished. 75 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:24.720 In the last four month, we've delivered more than thirty new electric superhubs, 76 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.439 mostly across the motorway network to put some of that perspective in there, So 77 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.399 I think a lot of what we're doing is happening far ahead of what people 78 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:34.680 realize is happening. I like what I heard because there are things that you 79 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:40.000 don't say, and I want to say. It is when it became clear 80 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:45.279 and the other leadership of Tesla, Charles said that there was a business case 81 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.319 around IV charging. Okay, probably the first move would charge at home, 82 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.680 but very happily people would charge outside the home. There was a business case, 83 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:59.319 and utilities did not grasp it. Oil companies certain started moving, but 84 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.279 of course there are kind of slow So in fact, it's entrepreneur like you 85 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:10.519 who took the challenge and you come from the world of solar of battery, 86 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.160 So can you kind of explain the genesis of gridserve kind of rapidly and how 87 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:20.079 you grew Yeah, sure, prior to grid serve you very rapid form of 88 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.519 me. I was born into a world where my father was doing solar and 89 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:27.759 battery projects for critical power applications before I was born. So he was doing 90 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.639 that the forty seven years ago. And I'm not forty seven years old, 91 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.759 and I've been building sustainable energy businesses for the last twenty two years prior to 92 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.759 grid Serve, I built the UK arm of Electrics are one of the largest 93 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:42.600 solar and battery businesses in the world. And during that time of developing, 94 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:47.000 constructing, financing, operating is really you know, incredible projects. I actually 95 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:50.839 learned along the journey how much fossil fuels it takes to build these types of 96 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.720 projects, and I thought that was wrong. And so when I had the 97 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.720 first opportunity to drive an electric car, and my business partner, you know, 98 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:00.839 it took me for a ride and without giving me any advance warning about 99 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.240 how fast they were. It was a real shock to the system. But 100 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.360 I thought, wow, this is incredible. So I put a deposit down 101 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:11.040 very very quickly, and I took ownership of the car abo about a year 102 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.519 later, and it was fantastic. I mean, the vehicle was absolutely brilliant, 103 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.040 but charging just was difficult. And you know, it was also at 104 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.879 a time when the solar business we were kind of coming out of the subsidy 105 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:26.240 era and a lot of people were thinking the solar industry is dead, it's 106 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.279 all based on subsidies. That was never my mindset, because, as I 107 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:30.920 said, I was born into a mindset where, you know, when my 108 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:35.199 dad was doing solar projects, subsidies didn't exist. You had to build renewable 109 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:40.360 energy projects for infrastructure that depends on that energy, and it was for critical 110 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:44.319 applications like telecoms, so it needs to be incredibly reliable. And actually, 111 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.879 if you can provide that sort of energy that's incredibly reliable that infrastructure can depend 112 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.480 on, then there's inherent value. And I was very sure that that value 113 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:55.639 is more than the value that we've just lost when the subsidies had gone. 114 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.480 So I was focusing on new ways to deliver sustainable energy that were you andly 115 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.160 sustainable without the requirement for subsidies. I was very sure that electric vehicles were 116 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.000 phenomenal because I've been many years in but the charging infrastructure just wasn't up to 117 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.480 standard. And so we actually built the first non subsidized large hybrid solar farm 118 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.000 in the UK, and we set about plans to really build something that's just 119 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.800 materially different, something that's ready for the mass market. And the business model 120 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.120 is was that if we could use at the core solar energy, and we 121 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:30.319 could put that solar energy either directly in or indirectly in net zero approach through 122 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.039 the grid, then there would be additional value, and that would also allow 123 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.519 us to we could build the instruction in an incredibly reliable way, then that 124 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.480 would give people the confidence to transition to electric cars in the numbers that were 125 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.559 justified the investment required to really really scale up. And so that's what we've 126 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.840 been doing, and a lot of it was borne out of just a lot 127 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.799 of learning. The first journey I took was in a tesla to the south 128 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.639 of France and back in August twenty fourteen. It was just an awful lot 129 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.759 of experience, a huge number of experiences, and I had a lot of 130 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:01.720 knowledge about so not of knowledge about batteries, and a lot of knowledge about 131 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.759 critical infrastructure, and also a good understanding about electric cars. And so what 132 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.879 I felt is that the vehicles were going to be there. But people don't 133 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.519 often do things because the government tells them they should. People eventually we have 134 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:16.000 to, but to deliver change and impact quickly, we need to deliver things 135 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:20.240 because people want to. And what you certainly don't want is the stories which 136 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.039 you laid out at the beginning of the session of turning out to a charging 137 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.759 experience, and it was terrible. We needed to flip that on its head. 138 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.480 We needed to make charging electric vehicles a better experience than petrol and diesels, 139 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.000 because I'm sure the vehicles already are, and if the charging experience can 140 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.639 be as well, that's where we need to be to attract the mass market, 141 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.519 to give people the confidence the transition. So that's the mission that we're 142 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.080 on and have been since the beginning. Charlington, can I ask you just 143 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.600 about another markets heavy one because I understand perfectly what you're doing in the mortal 144 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.480 Way area, but I'd like to ask you a little bit about how you 145 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.399 see cities. You know where I'm coming from. That is an old city 146 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:58.919 like London, right, How do you go and put in charging infrastructure in 147 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:03.879 there to allow us to electrify mobility within that type of big city environment. 148 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:09.000 It's difficult. So we focused on delivering a network and we've prioritized where there 149 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.120 is the greatest need. So we focused on electric four courts, which serve 150 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.919 local areas. But given the scale of them they're typically half an acre to 151 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.759 two and a half acres, you can't have those in the middle of towns 152 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.639 and so those are typically on the edge of towns. We focus on the 153 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.879 motorway service area areas which are already perfect for electric vehicle drivers, because in 154 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:28.679 addition to a great charging experience, you also want to have the right place 155 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.919 to safely and comfortably and have a good experience while you're charging. And we're 156 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.000 also now increasingly turning our focus towards cities as well. Cities are very challenging. 157 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.360 They're challenging because you have an exponentially larger number of people who can't easily 158 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.080 charge at home. It's because there's a lot less offstreet charging and the land 159 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.840 is very expensive, and so really cities, the solution has to be based 160 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.039 on where vehicles would otherwise be parking anyway. And so there's a number of 161 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.200 projects that we're working on that will be bringing to market in the pretty near 162 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:03.480 future which we're very excited about how we can really help transform electric vehicle charging 163 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.360 within cities as well. But but it really is all about not just trying 164 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.759 to have to compete with new buildings, because that the economics just don't work. 165 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.000 It's about how you can get some an area where somebody would be parking 166 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:18.080 their vehicle anyway, and how you can provide the right type of charging experience 167 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.639 for that location or for how long the vehicle needs to be there. From 168 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:26.080 a development perspective, do you have like criteria yah where you decide to build 169 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:31.320 your new station. Is it a ability of connection, is it the traffic? 170 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:35.679 How do you decide to locate a new charging infrastructure. There's a huge 171 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:41.240 amount to that and that's obviously absolutely critical because we also need to ensure that 172 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:43.919 we don't just deliver the infrastructure, but that infrastructure is used to a level 173 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.639 that will justify the business case and that will then give our our investors the 174 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.879 confidence that we're making the right decisions, the right choices, so we can 175 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:56.320 go and deploy additional infrastructure. You know, we have raised many hundreds of 176 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.360 millions of pounds both bank debt and equity of over a billion pounds totally if 177 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:01.919 you look at all the different facilities, and you know, we've been able 178 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:07.279 to get that level of confidence by being very very careful about where we site 179 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.360 and where we choose location. So there's different criteria that you need to consider. 180 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.799 So you know, on a motorway type scenario, it's you know, 181 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.639 there's a huge number of people going past. When we have more electric vehicles, 182 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.039 you can predict the type of numbers of vehicles that will be turning up 183 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.399 to charge utilization rates and so on. And we're already seeing a really great 184 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.399 utilization given that the UK's now hit its first million electric cars, and as 185 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:35.480 we step towards twenty thirty and beyond, it's going to step up a lot 186 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.679 more when it comes to where we have our electric four courts. For example, 187 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.039 just open up a new electric four court at Gatwick Airport. You know, 188 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:48.360 they have a slightly different scenario where there's a large number of people within 189 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.120 that vicinity and those people will need charging. It's principally serving your local need. 190 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:56.039 It's great that you can have a busy road in the vicinity so you 191 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.720 can get some past through traffic as well, but really there's a huge business 192 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.639 case be able to serve the local community. In a slightly more residential area, 193 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.840 then there are typically thirty to fifty percent, let's say, of homes 194 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:09.720 that can't easily charge it, don't have off street parking, and so there's 195 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.360 going to be a large number of people who need to know that they've got 196 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.320 the confidence to be able to make their transition. There's obviously different types of 197 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.039 charging solutions. If a vehicle is going to be there overnight. Then you 198 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.399 definitely don't want a three hundred and fifty kilo charger that's capable of providing one 199 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.000 hundred miles a charge in five minutes. But you definitely need a mixture of 200 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:30.519 solutions so that you can have slower charging for vehicles that are going to be 201 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:33.879 there for a long period of time, but also higher power chargers, so 202 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.480 businesses in the area can make the transition to term their fleets electric. Big 203 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.399 part of it is giving people the confidence as well that they can go out 204 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.600 and get an electric car as well, knowing that they've got the right types 205 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:48.200 of solutions available to them as well. And there's a very select approach that 206 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.039 we go through. It's a very data driven approach. We map roads, 207 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.960 we map power, we map in you know, there's a huge amount of 208 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.960 criteria that we map. We create a score as to how valuable that location 209 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.000 is based on many, many diferent metrics, and we then pick one of 210 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.840 the most valuable sites to move forward with. And then we move forward with 211 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.360 the approach of then you know, looking to secure the grid capacity, looking 212 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.399 to get a bit of planning commissions and so on, and then the business 213 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:16.000 cases alongside that to be able to fund that infrastructure, and thereafter delivering it 214 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.519 and working, you know, looking very close to at how it's operating, 215 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.720 and continuing to look at ways that we can continue to optimize that infrastructure thereafter. 216 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.320 In fact, we have a whole ecosystem. But approach to what we 217 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:31.279 do. It's called sun to wheel. It's actually a net zero equivalent of 218 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.080 well to wheel. So we build solar farms, we build batteries, we 219 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.919 build grid infrastructure and connect to grids, build electric four courts and electric superhubs. 220 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.320 So we also take all this into consideration whether it's possible to connect a 221 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.639 solar farm, for example, we look at fleets in the area that there's 222 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.080 a variety of different types of solutions. And I believe we have one of 223 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.720 the highest utilized networks, if not the highest utilized network in the UK, 224 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.480 not if not anywhere in the world. And I think that sort of shows 225 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.600 that we we've made some pretty good choices in that regard, but we continue 226 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.080 to look optimize that what we're doing to make sure we've got the very best 227 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.799 sense Tod Can I just ask a provocative question, right, and I'm coming 228 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.720 from the user perspective here which is that I look at a large amount of 229 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.120 the EV chargers that have been built now I think these are going to be 230 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.759 stranded assets. And the reason I say that is they're just not fit for 231 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.759 purpose going forward. And I'd said it at the beginning that there's one particular 232 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.799 utility where I just will not go on near one of their charges. But 233 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.759 I've got one of the oil companies, I won't go near their chargers either, 234 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.840 and I know that there are other guys that think the same. So 235 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:33.480 the result of it, then is what you're going to have is, I 236 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.120 think is you're going to see a whole pile of EV chargers that have got 237 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.960 high capacity utilization factors and lo as was my question to you really is whether 238 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.159 you believe that's the case. And then secondly, what does that mean from 239 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.320 the investment point of view, because that that what I'm sort of saying to 240 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.399 you is that EV charging networks are completely different than each other. I've always 241 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:00.679 believed there will be a time where there are huge of electric vehicle charges, 242 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.159 you know, many options for customers, and actually I believe that time is 243 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.639 fast approaching. People are concerned that there aren't enough charges at the moment enough 244 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.039 charges in the right locations. But there are organizations like grid Serve and others 245 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:15.399 that are delivering them very very quickly, as I highlighted earlier. And so 246 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.840 if you assume from the beginning that there's going to be competition, which is 247 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.759 a good thing, it's a very healthy thing for this industry, then you 248 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.559 really need to think from the beginning of how can you be the one that 249 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.600 attracts customers. So we always think very carefully about both the charger type and 250 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.159 I'll come back to them at that in a second, but also the locations 251 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.559 themselves. I've made it a priority to ensure that any location has rest facilities 252 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.879 as restrooms, you know, available within the vicinity that you'd be able to 253 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.879 get a coffee, for example. It's a safe place, it's got good 254 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.440 lighting and so on and so forth. And so you want to have a 255 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.000 really good environment that will attract people because it's a comfortable place to be. 256 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:53.240 You know, you don't get any better than that than I think in an 257 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.720 electric fore court. We also have high speed internet. But then the other 258 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.440 side of it is you need to make sure that you're putting the right charger 259 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.480 that's future proof. What I noticed because I've been doing this for ten years. 260 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.720 Is that ten years ago it was quite standard that if you wanted to 261 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.880 charge a car, you had to plug it into a three pin plug. 262 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.880 And so when people started putting in seven killer what charges, they were known 263 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:19.160 as fast chargers. Then fifty killer what charges emerged and they were considered very 264 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:23.279 fast at the time or rapid. And now we've seen continuations of one hundred 265 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.319 and fifty killer watts and beyond. On what grid Server focusing on to ensure 266 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:30.359 that we are future proof, that we are relevant in the future. So 267 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.039 we not only we've got the right locations of customers, we've got the right 268 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.400 chargers, is we've been focusing on the highest power charges that are available. 269 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.920 So these are typically three hundred and fifty or three hundred and sixty killer wats 270 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:45.079 of power. They're capable of providing one hundred miles of charge in five minutes. 271 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.440 Now, today's electric vehicles, you know, won't accept that level of 272 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.799 power at least for very long. But there's new batteries that are being produced 273 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.279 right now that are called four sea batteries. They have a C rating of 274 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.680 four C, which means they could be charged incredibly quickly, so you know, 275 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.559 within the next year or two, we're going to see vehicles hitting the 276 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.119 streets that can provide one hundred miles of charge in five minutes. And to 277 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:07.920 our view and our synopsis is if you've got a customer that you can go 278 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.480 to a location that's really perfect for for the chargings of that customer while the 279 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.400 vehicle is charging and they're finding a charger that is incredibly reliable, that hasn't 280 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.759 got those poor experiences that you talked about, is easy to charge with contactless 281 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.079 payment and other options as well that will make it even easier, and you 282 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.039 can charge that vehicle as quickly as that vehicle needs to be charged for that 283 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.319 location. But that's where you're going to win. And I focused on the 284 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.519 higher power charges because that's the majority of what it is that we're doing, 285 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.839 because we've been really focusing on the motorway network in particular and electric four courts. 286 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.000 But there are other scenarios, as I talked about, in cities and 287 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.200 other locations where you actually don't want to charge a vehicle in ten to fifteen 288 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.240 minutes because you know the need of the customer is they want to be there 289 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.039 for an hour or several hours, and it's really important that you match the 290 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.319 charging needs at the location with the chargers and the right location in the customer 291 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:02.039 experience. And it's the combination of all of those factors which is important to 292 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.680 give people the confidence, give a good experience and also over time, differentiate 293 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:11.640 ourselves from other solutions. So you started talking about tech and if we open 294 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:17.839 a charging budd, I don't know you call that as the tech change a 295 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.200 lot in the past three four years. Do you see a kind of stabilization? 296 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.519 And then probably talk about the software also, how do you see it 297 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.039 changing, because of course we get the energy management system and of course the 298 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:36.279 payment system. So what podcasts have you seen and where are we heading here? 299 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:41.599 There's been a huge amount of change. The charges that we replaced from 300 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.599 the original electric highway were the kind of things that the technology that we were 301 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.519 used to ten years ago. That you buy equipment and that is what it 302 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.799 is. The new charges that we are putting in a very much like the 303 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.759 new vehicles where you put the charges in, but there's constant upgrades over the 304 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:02.799 air to kind of optimize and prove the performance of that equipment. And grids 305 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:04.839 that are very focused on that we've got a lot of focus on technology, 306 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.000 We've got a lot of focus on providing a good experience. There's a lot 307 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.759 of complexity to provide a good charging experience because people think that a bit like 308 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.000 when you're fueling a car with petrol, that you're in control, you're putting 309 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.720 the energy from the charger into the vehicle, But actually with an electric charging 310 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.799 experience, there's a handshake that occurs between the car and the charger, and 311 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.839 it's actually the car that will control the charging session so that it doesn't cause 312 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.119 any issues for battery degradation. And there's a lot of complexity around that because 313 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.880 there's lots of different vehicles being produced very quickly by lots of different manufacturers. 314 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:41.000 There's lots of different charging solutions, and it's really important that you continue to 315 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.759 optimize and improve that technology throughout the whole charging cycle. There's also a number 316 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.880 of different communications challenges. If you're using a contactless card, you have to 317 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.599 connect that that's going to go through a whole series of different pieces of technology 318 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.880 to be able to authorize a session and so on and so forth. So 319 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:02.920 technology is absolutely key. You cannot provide an incredible charging experience without a really 320 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.759 good grasp and control of technology. And it's also essential to have technology that 321 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.799 you can continue to optimize on an ongoing, daily, hourly hit basis, 322 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.880 and that's what we're doing. So we learned from our very first projects that 323 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.599 we bought the best equipment that we can get in the market. We turn 324 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.720 the sites on and certain cars turned up and just there were all sorts of 325 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.960 challenges. And because we have worked very closely with our supply chain partners, 326 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.720 because we work very closely with a lot of the car manufacturers, we've been 327 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.240 between us tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and just getting a much much 328 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.799 better charging experience to the extent now that grid serves a pretty good reputation. 329 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.079 I got told the other day that someone said to me, look, you 330 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.519 know, I just wanted to thank you because my wife was a bit of 331 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.359 a skeptic. And then we turned up at your charging solutions and on the 332 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.519 back of seeing what you guys are doing and got sites like Exeter where we've 333 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:55.720 got twenty four high power chargers all next to each other, and they work 334 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:59.680 and they're reliable, and we've got teams behind them that are monitoring everything and 335 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.680 optimizing and improving on a constant basis, and then people repairing and you know, 336 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:04.839 all the sorts of thing that's needed. You know, it gave her 337 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.279 the confidence to say, you know what, I'm ready now. But in 338 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:11.839 answer your question, you know, technology is absolutely essential to providing a great 339 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.839 customer experience and giving people that continued confidence. So one thing we didn't talk 340 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.759 about is the pricing of the Killer What Hour. First of all, is 341 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:25.440 the pricing the same or kind of changing by the day. Is it cheaper 342 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:30.200 when it's windy or sunny? Do you look at your competitails in a mile 343 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:34.200 radius? How do you define your price for Killer what Hour? That's something 344 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:38.039 that's going to evolve a lot over time. We have a very simple, 345 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.799 single price for Killer whatever. We want to be as competitive as we possibly 346 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.200 can. We are putting in the highest power charges that are available, and 347 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.599 in that group we are as competitive as any. But there's lots of ways 348 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.160 to optimize us over the future. I mentioned that we have a sum to 349 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.039 wheel ecosystem, and actually in terms of us, we're called grid serve. 350 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.319 So we look at our grid connections of what we can do to optimize them 351 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.160 we also know that to get to net zero, we need to support the 352 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:03.200 grid, we need to balance the grid, and we need to do a 353 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.359 lot of optimization. And so if there is more renewable energy that is available, 354 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.480 then rather than renewable energy projects being curtailed, which is something really really 355 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.640 needs to be avoided, then there should be ways that in the future we 356 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.079 can change pricing, and there definitely are solutions around that. So as we 357 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.839 head more down this journey, we're certainly looking at how we can deliver dynamic 358 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.960 pricing solutions that can vary with time of day, depending on perhaps the sites 359 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.359 are very busy or they're less busy, or renewable energy is available. We 360 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.559 also use batteries to kind of store that energy, so there's a whole piece. 361 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.359 So at the moment, we've been really working on how we can provide 362 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.880 competitive pricing incredibly reliable charging in the structure. But as we head forward in 363 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.039 time, we definitely think there will be a need to be able to provide 364 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.400 dynamic pricing and optimization on an ongoing basis. So Tardington, I'd like to 365 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.599 just maybe go forward to twenty thirty just talk to me a little bit about 366 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:59.559 my experience as an EV charger and how you see it. It's quite funny 367 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.359 because I've got young children and all they've known is electric cars. When my 368 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.920 daughter was four years old, she turned around and said to me, Daddy, 369 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:08.880 what's petrol? It was a very funny day, and I went, 370 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:11.839 do you want to car and have a look? We went to a petrol 371 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.519 station. She thought it was the strangest thing ever. But what is that 372 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:17.599 stuff? And I was kind of trying to describe it, and I was 373 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:18.799 like, well, it's kind of energy from a long time ago. Well 374 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.240 how long ago, like kind of like dinosaur time ago, and you kind 375 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.839 of get that energy it's actually sunlight and you put it into a car and 376 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:26.440 then what do you do with it. Well, there's like a bit of 377 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.920 a kind of bonfire in the middle of that car, and you burn it 378 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:32.440 and that makes the car move. And she's like, she laughs, and 379 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.319 Daddy, that's silly. And I think in twenty thirty people will be looking 380 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.880 at petrol and diesel cars in the same way that we kind of look at 381 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.920 compact discs today. They were pretty cool at the time and we really liked 382 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:48.079 them, But in twenty thirty, electric vehicles will be normal. They will 383 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.839 be absolutely so much easier. People will be looking back fondly with some fond 384 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:52.960 memories of how he got there. In the same way, I'm sure we 385 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.759 have fond memories of mini discs and compact discs and tapes and all the kind 386 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.680 of things along the journey. But in twenty three, it's going to be 387 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.599 extremely easy. It's going to be a smart, connected ecosystem and there's a 388 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.319 very similar way to how what Tesla's been able to pioneer. Today, people 389 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:10.200 are need to worry about charging. People will say I'm going from here to 390 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:14.480 here. The ecosystem will connect you to which chargers are most efficient for your 391 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.480 journey. You will turn up your plug, your vehicle in, they'll automatically 392 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:19.640 start charging, and it's just going to be a great, seamless experience that 393 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:22.119 really is phenomenal, and I'm absolutely sure about that. But I think the 394 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.519 one thing I will tell you is it's going to happen a long time before 395 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.160 twenty thirty. Great Tarlington, really great having you in the show. Thanks 396 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:33.000 a lot. Yeah, it's great to have your drive, your enthusiasm and 397 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:40.079 seeing that it takes entrepreneur to develop the Infraseructor of Tomorrow. Awesome, great 398 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.200 to be here. Thanks everyone, sol On what's your conclusion? Oh my 399 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:49.440 god, what a wild wind. He spoke so much and so fast. 400 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.000 Now it was interesting, but I had at least tough question. I could 401 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.799 not ask half of them. What I like about it. Tarlington is first, 402 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.440 he talks a good game, but he also is delivering on that game. 403 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.640 I mean that's great. We need people like him to go up and 404 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.680 actually do this. And he's really thinking from a customer perspective. Yeah, 405 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.119 and they have good solutions. And I like his vision of the future. 406 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:18.240 I like the story really about his daughter bringing her to a patrol station because 407 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.160 you didn't know what it was. I mean it's nice. Yeah, it's 408 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.839 nice. But look in the grand scheme of things, and here we need 409 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:30.960 to think against not Ballard. Page one fourteen of his Slight Deck the ranking 410 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:36.640 of the largest ivy charging companies in the world. And the number one is 411 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:41.000 not Tesla. They say is only number four. Tesla delivered four tel at 412 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:45.480 our and the first one is Tea good in China six to what hour. 413 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:51.960 It's phenomenon. Now in comparison, Great Serf is much smaller than deliver or 414 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:55.440 fifty gig or what hour. But it doesn't have to be big networks, 415 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:59.640 you know, it can be original networks if they are properly developed. Absolutely 416 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.160 absolutely, And I think this and you talk about China, the China's obviously 417 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.759 a first mover in this whole industry and it's the because an ev automobile market 418 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:08.759 in the world, and they've really made a postion to this. But listen, 419 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.839 Europe has coming quickly behind, right, so we're going to see a 420 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.920 huge infrastructure build out in this area in the next few years, which is 421 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:21.039 only a benefit to customers like us. Yeah. The second thing I really 422 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:26.519 appreciate is this holistic approach of what the EV charging station should be, so 423 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:32.400 you know, integrating solar panels and batteries and almost becoming a minigrid and being 424 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.559 able to serve the grade and start having dynamic pricing. So it's much more 425 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:42.880 than selling electrons. It's really creating a little energy hub around the charging what 426 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.640 was the phrase, to use some to wheel as much some to wheel, 427 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.920 like yeah, yeah, some to wheel And he has raised a lot of 428 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:56.160 money and verrapy for him, and I still don't understand the economics, like 429 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.559 how many cars do you need in order to start balancing your books? But 430 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.480 that's probably for another episode, without a doubt, And that was back to 431 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.240 my whole thing that if you have the wrong charger or the wrong location, 432 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.680 you're in shopple going forwarders as somebody that owns these assets. Yeah, and 433 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.480 the fact that he's on the motorway, that's a great advantage because let's face 434 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:23.400 it, who's going to charge outside the home is, as you said, 435 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.960 people inside the cities, or it's going to be fleets, or it's going 436 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.960 to be the guys who drive a lot and the motorways. But that means 437 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.240 also that you need to manage seasonally diesel. So it's complex. Why do 438 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.960 you don't do it? Because it's much more complex than being a static utility. 439 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.240 I think the utilities have been hoping in most countries that the government's gonna 440 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:51.240 allowed them the potomos that are regulated asset base as you sure, that's the 441 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.359 only time that's the reality of it. And don't get me wrong, there 442 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.799 are some great utilities a litton in terms of if I look, I've been 443 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.240 around all of Europe at this point in time, and let car for example, 444 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.759 if I take the Italian utility and now they do a great job. 445 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.559 But as I said, if I look at some of their Northern European counterparties, 446 00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:12.160 I can't say the same, which means that within the next five years 447 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.519 there's going to be a consolidation because some people will manage their network much better 448 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:23.160 and take care of the customer. I like that approach of being customer centric 449 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:29.279 because it's exactly what Autopus is doing, and this is how you win clients. 450 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.880 You take care of your clients, and that's what great Servi is doing 451 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.519 and that's the future of be charging well. By the way, I think. 452 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.680 I said on the podcast that I had just signed up for a Tesla 453 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.160 account and I did it and I was just blown away with the speed, 454 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.240 the quality, everything about it. And my next car is a Tesla. 455 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.799 Okay, good to know. We thank Aquila Capital for their continuous support. 456 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:59.319 We'll see them in Berlin in two weeks time, and in the meantime, 457 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:07.960 I took to you next week for minutes look forward to us. Thank you 458 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:12.279 for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on 459 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:17.759 Apple, Podcast, Spotify or the platform of your choice.