WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:05.120 Young people are idealistic. They want to believe in some kind of ideal and 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:10.000 I think the left is very good. They've got this suit, this bizarre 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:14.519 notion of what socialism can do if we get it just right this time. 4 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:19.559 And the right has some idealism in religion and socially. I think it's less 5 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:23.559 attractive to young people, but you know, maybe when Jordan Peterson tells them 6 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:29.160 to make their bed, that's attractive. But we need we need an We 7 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.640 need to be idealistic. We need to portray a beautiful picture of the future. 8 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:35.399 What we do a lot, and we're very good at, is complaining. 9 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.520 We complain about the world today. We complain about the present, we 10 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:42.399 complain about the government, we complain about the culture. But we are not 11 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:47.600 very good at projecting our ideal and projecting what is possible and giving people the 12 00:00:47.719 --> 00:01:04.319 tools to live the best life that they can do. So today we are 13 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:12.280 discussing how to make classical liberalism mainstream again. It's obvious that modern politics is 14 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:19.560 dominated by leftists and conservative movements, but there is little place for the classical 15 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:25.760 liberal ideas, or what I would call maybe the true liberal ideas. Right, 16 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.920 I think one of the reasons. One of the obvious reasons is that 17 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:36.519 in general, most people don't really know what classical liberalism is and why it 18 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:42.120 could be a viable alternative in modern politics for the mainstream, for the dominant 19 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:51.879 ideologies. So could you please explain very shortly, what is the essence of 20 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:59.239 classical liberal ideas, how it differs from modern dominant ideologists, and how to 21 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:06.280 revise if its place in the society. The society is awareness soviet. So 22 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:13.360 I think classical liberalism almost purposefully is not a very very clearly defined term, 23 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:19.400 but it is an emphasis in political discussion on liberty, on individual liberty, 24 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.360 on individual freedom. It is the idea, broadly speaking, that the government 25 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:30.560 should be limited, should be limited primarily to protecting our lives and our property. 26 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.240 It should be primarily focused. I think, in the best interpretation of 27 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:39.840 classical liberalism, it should be a focused on the protection of individual rights properly, 28 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:45.639 properly defined, and properly understood, and that generally the government should leave 29 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:49.719 individuals free to pursue their own lives, free to start their own businesses a 30 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.000 contract with other people. It should protect property rights, protect contract rights. 31 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:59.039 It should provide for the national defense and police force in the judiciary. But 32 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.159 beyond that, classical liberals tend to be skeptical about anything else that the government 33 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.360 does. Some of us would like there to be a complete ban under the 34 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:12.520 government doing anything else, but classical liberals generally have wanted small and limited government. 35 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:15.840 I think part of the part of the reason the classical liberalism is less 36 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:22.360 known today is that many of these liberal parties of a long time ago and 37 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:27.479 a says, sold their soul to the devil. They compromised and compromised and 38 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.479 compromised and compromised to the point where they merged into a left or merged into 39 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:38.319 the conservative movement. They didn't stick to their principles. They didn't uphold this 40 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:44.120 idea of limited limited government to some you know, at some point there was 41 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.080 a crisis and some people needed help, so the government helped them. And 42 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:51.319 then the crisis maybe there's another group that needed help, and then they helped 43 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.280 got institutionalized, and we got a welfare state, and the liberals didn't really 44 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:59.560 fight against the welfare state. And then and then maybe there was some business 45 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.000 crisis and the states at all we better regulate that because businessmen are behaving badly, 46 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:09.400 and the liberals didn't adamantly object, and then that expanded slowly, and 47 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:14.599 slowly the liberals kind of lost the passion about fighting over this. So I 48 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:20.120 think for the public, they just really haven't experienced classical liberal ideas in any 49 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:25.279 kind of organized, systematic way. They're not familiar with them because much of 50 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:30.759 the older liberal ideology kind of faded away as the liberals, as the liberal 51 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.959 agenda was compromised, and indeed, in the United States, it got so 52 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:43.519 bad that ultimately the left stole the term liberal. Yeah, and today when 53 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:47.720 you say liberal in America, everybody thinks you're talking about the left. And 54 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.480 so if they object to the left, they object to liberalism, and then 55 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:57.839 what are they left with? Kind of a conservative right. So there's a 56 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.240 lot of confusion about the term. There's a lot of confusion about its history, 57 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.639 and ultimately there's a lot of confusion about what it really stands for. 58 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:09.319 And this is where I think the biggest problem lies with classical liberalism. What 59 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.000 is it? What do we actually believe in? Yeah, I think we 60 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.360 will get back. There's a problem of the dark part of me. But 61 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.800 do you have any ideas about how to solve this problem? You know, 62 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.759 Well, I think I think there are two things that have to be done, 63 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:25.279 and any solution I give you is not going to be a short term 64 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.680 solution, and any solution I give you is not a silver bullet that everything 65 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.360 changes instantaneously. I think the first is we need to be clear about what 66 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:35.680 classical liberal is is and what it stands for. And I think we need 67 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:42.920 to boast its defenses. We need to boast its philosophical foundations. For example, 68 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:50.000 classical liberalism is traditionally has always been a dominant primarily of political philosophy, 69 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:55.319 but political phillosophy rests on other branches of philosophy. It rests on certain foundations, 70 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:00.079 small foundations, epistemological foundations. I think to really dominate, we need 71 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:08.680 a consistent moral and epistemological philosophy. We need a set of ideas that are 72 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:12.279 not just economic and not just political, a set of ideas that don't just 73 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:15.879 involve Yeah, we get a higher GDP, and yes, I value freedom, 74 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.079 but I know other people don't value freedom. How do I get them 75 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.560 to value freedom? Well, getting people to value freedom has more to do 76 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:28.399 with morality and more to do with philosophy for their own life and what kind 77 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:30.480 of life they want to live, then it has to do with economics and 78 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:35.199 politics. So I think we need to engage in much more with a cultural 79 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:42.319 debate about what people should live for, how to live, what lives are 80 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:47.959 worth while living, and and and become an advocates of human reason, for 81 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:53.000 example, because I don't think I give you a quick example, right, 82 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:58.800 Plato the philosopher believed that most people lived in this cave ideas, this cave 83 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.160 analogy, and we see shadows in the wall, and we don't know reality, 84 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:03.759 and we can't know reality, and we can't know truth, and in 85 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.279 a sense, we can't take care of ourselves. Only the philosopher can exit 86 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.920 the cave that we're in and see the actual reality, the sunshine, the 87 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.480 world of forms, as he advises, So only the philosopher knows the truth. 88 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:19.720 Now, if that's true, if that's epistemologically true, me and you 89 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:25.720 can't see reality, only the philosopher where they can see it, then freedom 90 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.079 is useless to us because we can't we can't discover truth, we can't discover 91 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.720 how to live. We have to just listen to him. Every authoritarian regime 92 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:36.839 in history is basically based on this Platonic idea. We have to be willing 93 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:42.120 to challenge that, not just politically, not just emotionally, but also philosophically 94 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.439 and say, no, we believe in reason. We believe every individual has 95 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:48.839 the capacity to reason. Every individual has the capacity to discover truth, discover 96 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:53.560 his own values, knows what to do with his life. And therefore what 97 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:58.600 we need is freedom so that individuals can pursue their happiness, not so that 98 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:01.160 we can maximize GDP as many people do, right, many classical the bust 99 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:07.360 tend to do, but so that individuals can actually live the fullest, most 100 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.040 complete life that they can, and they have the capability to do that because 101 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:16.879 all beings of reason, man is the rational animal. Let me elaborate a 102 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.360 little bit on the issue of truth and maybe put it a little bit differently, 103 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:26.439 right, So, I think part of the problem with statism and with 104 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:33.840 intrusive ideologists in general is maybe even the obsession with the idea of truth, 105 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.960 which is not necessarily the same as truth. You know, But I think 106 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:45.639 for classical liberals, part of the idea is that, you know, many 107 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:50.240 issues, on many issues, truth is subjective, right, or on many 108 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.080 issues we don't even have truth, right, So I know you represent an 109 00:08:54.120 --> 00:09:00.480 ideology which is called objectivism. So it may sound kind of, you know, 110 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:07.039 mutually exclusive. But on the other hand, I think if you really 111 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:13.120 value truth or value like the most important principles in life, so to say, 112 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.080 you have to be a little bit minimalistic right about this principle. So 113 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.919 this is where we disagree and where if I'm as a disagree often with classics. 114 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:28.159 So I think there's a real difference between dogma and truth. Yeah, 115 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.440 I think there's a huge difference between being dogmatic and being a truth seeker. 116 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.960 But I consider myself a truth seeker, and I think good people seek the 117 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.440 truth. I seek a truth to my own life. I want to know, 118 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:41.320 for example, what is really good for me now. I know that 119 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.600 sometimes I'm going to make mistakes. Truth is not reason is not infallible. 120 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.919 We're gonna make mistakes. But I'm looking for what's right and what's just and 121 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.879 what's true. I want to know that in the physical world, I want 122 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:58.320 to know, you know, I disagree with hum This is a mug and 123 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.159 that is water and I am drinking it. There's it's not a probability shit 124 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.759 thing. This is certainty. This is truth, and I think that that 125 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.720 that human for example, and others other classical liberals who would become skeptics, 126 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:18.440 and it becomes skeptics partially as a defense mechanism against the truth of communism or 127 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.000 the truth of authoritarianism. I think that's a mistake, and I think it 128 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.240 opens the door up to kind of the subjective is left. So my values 129 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.360 are my level of my truth, with forgot to my values of mine in 130 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.240 that sense, they're subjective, right, you know what how much I value 131 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:39.919 what a versus coke? Only I know you can't tell me what's right regard 132 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:41.440 to that. But whether this is a mug or not, that's an absolute 133 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:46.519 truth that both of us should be able to agree on. Truth is really 134 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.240 really important, and having a mechanism to discover truth is really really important, 135 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:56.000 and understanding the process of discovering truth is really really important. And that freedom 136 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.240 part of the reason we want to be free, so that we could go 137 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.320 on and discover what's true. But what's good. But we can't force people 138 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:05.480 to have That's why it's not dogs right, right, So you can't. 139 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.639 So this is the opposition to a Catholic church that buds people at the stake, 140 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:13.159 or that puts Galileo on the house arrest because he's searching for the truth. 141 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.759 People can be wrong about stuff. I can disagree with them, they 142 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.320 might be right. I might be wrong. Absolutely. Politically, we are 143 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.279 free to and we can't impose truth and other people, but we certainly can 144 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.879 advise people. I certainly want my doctor to be able to tell me I 145 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.759 think this is the treatment. I think this is the right treatment. I 146 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.480 think this is true in that sense. I might get a second opinion, 147 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.720 But I hope that medical science comes up with truths because I want to live 148 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.440 long and I want them to be able to cure diseases, and that require 149 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:52.440 science and truth. So I'm a huge believer in science and truth. What 150 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.639 I don't believe is imposing any of that on other people. People have to 151 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.399 discuss. Indeed, it's not truth if it's imposed on you. That's one 152 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.399 of the things that philosophically is important. If you accept something because somebody told 153 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.519 it to you, it's it's not true for you. It's just it's just 154 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.879 something you accepted. It's just it's it's subjective, it's completely arbitrary. I 155 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.279 want people to have to embrace the mechanism of truth discovery, which is human 156 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:22.000 reason, And I think classical liberalism needs to embraceist it needs to embrace the 157 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.919 fact that you know that free markets is that they work, is true, 158 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.080 and it's it's not questionable, it's not you can be a skeptic about this. 159 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.559 That we all the facts line up. They all line up for the 160 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.799 cause of freedom. So I think efpistemology is really important. Having a theory 161 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.080 of knowledge is really important. In having a theory of knowledge that leads to 162 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:48.159 actual discoveries about the world is crucial for liberty. To continue with the issue 163 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:56.639 of why modern classical liboralism is weak. So obviously it's mostly associated with libertarians 164 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:03.480 nowadays. And what do you agree that libertarianism tends to attract for whatever reasons, 165 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:09.399 many people who are dogmatic or radical, and who in turn radicalize or 166 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:16.159 make this ideology more dogmatic appear make it appear more dogmatic to most of the 167 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.480 people. So what are the reasons behind that? And what's the possible solution? 168 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.399 So I think a couple of things. Yeah, I mean, I 169 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.759 actually like the word radical, so as I embrace the word radical, I 170 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.360 think dogmatic is a bad word, but radical means consistent and radical means which 171 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:35.159 I like that would, But I do think it's dogmatic. I do think 172 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.000 a lot of people attracted to it. I think a lot of people who 173 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:45.759 embrace these ideas don't fully understand them, don't internalize them into their own life. 174 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.399 At the end of the day, I always ask people why do you 175 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.919 want to be free? And if you hesitate and you're not sure how to 176 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.519 answer that, there's a problem. You haven't internalized the value freedom, and 177 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:56.879 it can be I just want to do whatever the hell I want. It 178 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.120 has to be a real value to you. Why do you want to be 179 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.039 free? I know why I want to be free because I want the opportunity 180 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.600 to live the best life possible to me. I want to pursue happiness. 181 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.519 And the more freedom is the want opportunities they are for me to pursue happiness 182 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.320 for me, and I want to live the most flourishing, successful life I 183 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.039 can. Freedom is one of the prerequisites for that. Um so so, 184 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:22.840 I think a lot of people have not internalized, that have not made it 185 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.159 personal, don't understand it, and the theory is in a sense of floating 186 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.159 abstraction, and they've studied the theory it looks true to them. It all 187 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.279 connects, you know, kind of logically, but they haven't really seen it 188 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.159 in reality, brought it into their own lives and understand how it's connected to 189 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:50.240 life and and human human existence and human survival and young people. It's almost 190 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.240 inevitable the young people would be dogmatic, right because you just don't have their 191 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.159 life experience. I was, and no question when I read I ran for 192 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.399 the first time. I was on a crusade. I was going to convince 193 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:05.080 everybody and kind of a you know, hit the head with a hammer kind 194 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.879 of way. And then as you as you go, well, then you 195 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.799 you you you you learn how to convince people, how to how to debate 196 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:15.679 people, but also you learn that my goal in life is not convince them. 197 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:18.679 A goal in life is first to understand and to live a good life 198 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.919 and to study the ideas, and convincing others is something you do later, 199 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.399 and you certainly don't achieve anything by throwing a hammer at their head right at 200 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.960 being being obnoxious and being nasty. I think the other problem that exists in 201 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.200 libertarianism is I think, at some point, and I think I think the 202 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:43.080 point is really more you off bad more than anybody else. At some point 203 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:48.320 libertarianism takes a off ramp off of the liberal highway, if you will, 204 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.440 and it goes off in a direction of what I consider an ideology is that 205 00:15:52.679 --> 00:16:00.279 that's anti ethical to classical liberal and and and I think to reason and that 206 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.679 is the idea of the anarchy. I think anarchy is a disaster. I 207 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:11.720 think anarchy is counter to liberalism in classical sense, it's counter to freedom. 208 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:17.960 Anarchy devolves, it must evolve logically and existentially in reality into gang warfare and 209 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:19.679 violence. It always has, it always will. There's a reason why in 210 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.000 the culture anarchy is a negative term. It's chaos. Chaos is not a 211 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.600 good thing. And I think I think one of the things that classical liberals, 212 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.080 like the Founding Fallows that make understood, and I think that iran understood, 213 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.799 is that government is not a necessary evil. Government is a necessarily good. 214 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.200 Government creates the conditions for human flourishing. If it's the right kind of 215 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:44.480 government, and what we're limited and it's limited by the principle of individual rights. 216 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.600 If it's limited by their principle, it's a necessary good. Civilization can 217 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.759 exist without some entity. You don't like the world government, call it something 218 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.919 else. I don't care. But some entity that has the monopoly over the 219 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:02.919 use of ittalitory force only uses force in retaliation to protect, never to violate 220 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.759 people's rights, And that is what creates the conditions from market stable. It 221 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.960 creates the conditions for people to experiment with aught to experiment with their personal lives, 222 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:17.240 maybe sex, marriage, who knows, but it provides the conditions and 223 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:23.640 that make all that possible without violence, without force, without coersion from other 224 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:30.279 people. Anarchy rejects all that, and I think creates a condition where human 225 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:36.960 floishing is impossible. And I think that too many young libertarians attracted to this 226 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.920 I can do anything I want to do kind of an emotionalist attitude, and 227 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.519 they get the logical, abstract sequence that Rothbart or somebody else lays out, 228 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.839 and they never connect it to actual reality. And an actual reality doesn't work. 229 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:55.359 So you would probably mostly agree with Robert Nozick on his defense of the 230 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:57.440 minimal state. I mostly do. I would do it a little differently, 231 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:03.559 and man does it at differently, but in spirit absolutely I agree. So 232 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:11.799 maybe another issue is that maybe libertarians are failing really to communicate their empathy to 233 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:17.759 most of people, like it seems like a very anti empathic, so to 234 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:26.759 say, ideology because maybe partly because libertarians refuse to engage with many important issues 235 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.759 such as environment in many cases, like some of them do engage, but 236 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:37.279 many don't, and many people that have this kind of perception that they just 237 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.599 don't care, you know, and they're just bad people who only think about 238 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:47.400 themselves, etc. Etc. So what would it be your response to that? 239 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.079 Well, I think that a proper political movement has to have answers to 240 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:59.200 all the questions they could serve people. Whether it's whether it's questions like environmentalism 241 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.400 or the ament, or whether it's questions like what to do about the poor, 242 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.960 which always comes up when you're discussing these things. You have to have 243 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.759 an answer. The answer might not be the most pleasing answer always, but 244 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:10.640 you have to have an answer, and you have to have a program. 245 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.680 Environmentalism is a good example. I think libertarianism has a lot of interesting things 246 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:18.599 to say, can have or free market ideologies. Classical liberalism can have a 247 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:26.839 lot of interesting things to say while not negating the fundamental principles of property rights, 248 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.920 while not negating the fundamental principles of a limited government that's limited to the 249 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.880 protection of individual rights one. Then what one needs to do is frame the 250 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:41.440 environmental debate in the context of individual rights, in the context of you know, 251 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.759 something happening in an environment that actually does me harm. Well, then 252 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.599 if something's harming me, then the government has a rule to play, and 253 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.920 then we have to figure out exactly what will under what conditions. And it 254 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.279 can be complex. It might not be straightforward. Now, obviously the simple 255 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.440 way that the simplest way to deal with it. Most environmental issue, but 256 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.759 not all of them, is private property. The more private property we have, 257 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:08.400 the few environmental issues we have. And the reason for that is simple. 258 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.519 We know, we've got a thousand years of common law history that says 259 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:17.920 you can drop your garbage in my backyard. Well, if everything is somebody's 260 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:22.039 backyard, yea, even things like lakes and rivers and oceans and stuff. 261 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.799 And we can't find ways to privatize these things, and we have, you 262 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.359 know, in the history we have done things like this, then we can 263 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.839 we can explain to people how, you know, having water rights solves a 264 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.519 lot of the water cleanliness issues and the same, but there are issues that 265 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.559 go beyond that. For example, is very difficult to conceptualize in terms of 266 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:48.480 property rights. I'm breeding something that you're polluting, what do we do about 267 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.279 that? And their harm is an issue if if I'm harmed by something you're 268 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.480 doing. We know that if you blast your stereo really, really loud in 269 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.039 the middle of the night, I can sue you. Even in the lazare 270 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.039 capitalist world, I can sue you. You don't have a right to intrude 271 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.160 on my on my sleep like that. Well, you don't have a right 272 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:14.319 to throw your snide or whatever they are. And and so you go to 273 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.960 courts. You you know, you you you have some conclusion about the damage 274 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.319 that this does to people. The government has a world to look at that 275 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.440 and see whom it looks like these particular chemicals are really damaging to human life. 276 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.880 They have their ability, they have I think the obligation then to either 277 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.160 reduce their use or to bann them, or to do something in that limited 278 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.519 way in the name of protecting your rights. But I just want to give 279 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.720 one counter example, because this is it's a dangerous field. Imagine in the 280 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:47.319 middle of the nineteenth century, You're in London, the industrial evolution is happening. 281 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.319 Everybody's burning coal. Everybody people are burning coal in their homes, people 282 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:55.400 are burning coal in the factories. The air is full of black stuff. 283 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:57.160 You're gonna get some of you are going to get some of us are going 284 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:03.039 to get sick. Do we stop the industrial evolution? Do we ban cole 285 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:07.799 at that point? Or do we realize that maybe people are getting sick but 286 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:14.799 overall, something important is happening here and we need to let it play out 287 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:17.799 for a while at least, and then maybe clean it up. But we 288 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:21.680 need to play it out. China faces the same face, I think, 289 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.519 the same challenge. If development requires some pollution for a while, but the 290 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.400 value of development, the value of becoming rich, the value of bringing a 291 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.680 billion people out of poverty is huge, Well, maybe we can tolerate some 292 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.319 pollution for a while and then clean it up. So these are the kind 293 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.400 of issues that need to be thought through, and I think governments need to 294 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:49.680 need to be involved in thinking through. But there's real danger of stopping progress 295 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.960 before it happens if you do, if you overdo it, if you exceed 296 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:59.839 the limits. Sure. So basically we agree that there is a place for 297 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:07.720 or regulating pollution or other environmental factors because of the need to protect individual liberty 298 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:14.599 and because of the need to protect property rights. So yeah, of course, 299 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:22.000 But concerning your example, I think you've really touched on another crucial issue 300 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:29.200 here, because many libertarians really have this kind of approach where they just don't 301 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:33.519 want to weigh pro and con factors. They just want to to have this 302 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:38.839 simplistic answer where where they say, you know, if it's noise, why 303 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.559 why are you talking about noise? Are you a socialist or something like that. 304 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.160 You know, I've heard these kind of arguments, or you know, 305 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.480 somebody can just go in the street and shoot all around him unless he hits 306 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:59.160 you. You know. But but it's obvious from the scientific or truth perspective 307 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:06.599 that if there's somebody running around with a gun and just shooting, you know, 308 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:11.000 there is a chance that he will meet you. And my freedom to 309 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:18.759 some extent includes the freedom to be protected from that risk, right absolutely. 310 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.880 So I mean, take a simple example. Certainly a gun would would qualify. 311 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:27.279 But let's say somebody is driving on the private streets, but they're driving 312 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.039 in a way that is clearly endangering people. Right, Maybe they're driving fab, 313 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.680 but not just fast. They're swerving and they're cutting off people, and 314 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:41.319 they're going to kill somebody there's absolutely the role of our police force, of 315 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:47.319 of of a law to say irresponsible driving, harmful driving, and you have 316 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:48.880 to make it objective and you have to be careful. Again, not to 317 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.200 give the state too much power, but yes, risk is a fact that 318 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.880 let's say you're an extra construction site. I believe there should be no regulations 319 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.640 of construction. You know, let the market work. But you notice that 320 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:07.319 the crane is tilted and it looks like it's going to fall and on your 321 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.200 house. Can you call the police, Well, of course you can. 322 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.079 There's a real risk. And then a police send an inspective in and say, 323 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.599 you know what, you guys, your crane, you've got it wrong. 324 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.880 You need you need to fix it. So the risk real risk again, 325 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.319 and you have to be careful and you have to be objective, and 326 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:27.000 we have to be truthful. Real risk is a concern. It is something 327 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:33.400 a real threat is a concern, and it's something that a threat of life 328 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.960 and a threat of property. Just like today, if I threaten you, 329 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:38.880 right, I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna do something. The police can 330 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:44.119 stop it. And I think that's completely legitimate. It goes beyond speech at 331 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:48.480 that point. Now, it's a it's it turns into a physical threat when 332 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.680 a physical threats faced, whether it's through pollution or whether it's through a crane 333 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:57.200 that's tilted, or whether it's to somebody driving drunk. Absolutely, I think 334 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.319 the state has a role to play, and we should think very carefully and 335 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:06.640 how to make those laws and make them limited and make them limited individual rights 336 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:11.720 again, and how to protect But absolutely I think this idea of anything goes 337 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.359 is very dangerous. And we know what happens when anything goes. When you 338 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.960 get the chaos of anything goes, people demand order, and the order then 339 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:22.880 is provided by a strong band the order. You know, anarchy will always 340 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:27.559 devolve into authoritative in it. So, since we've already criticized anarchy, and 341 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:37.480 we've you know, stated that some libertarians have excessively restrictive view of the role 342 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.920 of the government, maybe it's at this point not obvious to some of the 343 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:48.000 listeners. Then what is the essence of our problem with the status you know, 344 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:55.920 like with with the left or with the conservatives, Because at one on 345 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:00.279 one hand, obviously there is place for involvement in the environment and you know, 346 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:06.599 things like that, but on the other there are still lots of areas 347 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:12.920 where there is no need for state involvement whatsoever, and where modern states are 348 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:17.599 increasingly involved. So I don't think of it is there's there's a place for 349 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.559 the goverment to be involved in my environment. I think of it is there's 350 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:25.000 a there's always a place for the state to be involved when life is threatened, 351 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.400 When life is exactly that's what, it's a real threat. For example, 352 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.079 I don't think there's any role of government in welfare, So what to 353 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:33.799 do about the poor? Nothing, The government has nothing to do with that. 354 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.359 Um. But if I'm running at you with a knife, yes, 355 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.440 the state is there to protect me. And if I'm throwing siginide in your 356 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.240 face, yes the state is supposed to protect me. So when life is 357 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.799 threatened, when property is threatened, or when life is attacked or property is 358 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.680 attacked, that's when the state gets intervened. Whether that attack is through the 359 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.759 air, yeah, that's climate, or whether it's it's another way. And 360 00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.680 of course, what what defines the modern left and the modern right is there 361 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:06.319 are no limits exactly on the state power. The modern left is obsessed with 362 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:15.039 redistributing wealth and using what I produced to help other people and taking my wealth 363 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.359 and redistributing it to others. And of course I'm controlling what businessmen do and 364 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.559 how they do it, and what they do in central planning, in the 365 00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.400 idea that they can plan everything. But even when it comes to the environment, 366 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.480 they believe that the environment is an end in itself. It's not only 367 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.559 an issue of threats towards us, but we have to protect snails, and 368 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.319 we have to protect this, and we have to protect that because they have 369 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:38.880 a value in and of themselves. They have an intrinsic value that does not 370 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.880 relate to human beings. The government should only be involved where humans are involved. 371 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.480 The government should only be involved in protecting human life, nothing more than 372 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.400 that. And there is no intrinsic value in nature. Value is something that 373 00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:57.599 comes from human beings. We value nature, You value nature, you love 374 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:03.720 for us. By some I think there are even more obvious examples, like 375 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:10.119 modern states like Georgia or any European state for that matter, are heavily involved 376 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.559 in education, in culture, in sports, you know, like why, 377 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:21.599 because I mean, there nobody's gonna die if we don't have a volleyball team. 378 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:25.640 More than that, I think by by by having a volleyball team. 379 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.039 You're denying somebody the capital to have what he wants to have exactly. And 380 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.119 and yes, education, I mean the how is a public education are well 381 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.599 known, but more than that, there's they are now. One of the 382 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.799 reasons people don't know about classical liberalism, maybe it is because the state is 383 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:44.039 running an educational system and they have no interest in they're knowing about it. 384 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.519 So, yes, the government is involved in everything. I think. I 385 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:51.039 think one of the worst things is the environment because I think it's all encompassing. 386 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.559 They use it to regulate everything else. But I agree education healthcare. 387 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.920 Europeans love this socialized healthcare with the state is telling you what medicines to take. 388 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:04.960 The state is telling you what treatments to get um and and this is 389 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.599 where the right comes in. Right, the right is a little bit more 390 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.200 sympathetic in economics. Okay, you can do your thing in economics a little 391 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.799 bit. But they want to regulate culture. They want Georgia to be Georgian, 392 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.680 and they want to regulate immigration, and they want to make the movement 393 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.759 of goods and services and people and capital. They want to regulate they you 394 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.880 know, they want the national sports team or whatever. So the conservatives have 395 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:36.559 given in a lot to the left on economics. It's interesting how the debate 396 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:40.279 between the left and right has changed over the last few years. It used 397 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:44.759 to be mainly about economics. Now it's mainly about culture, and that the 398 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:49.240 battlegrounds have shifted. Basically, the rights conservatives have given up on economics. 399 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.680 They've given into the left. The state can do anything in economics now. 400 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:57.599 Uh. And and now the fight is about I don't know, LGBTQ, 401 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:02.559 right, that's where the fight is. It's not about regulations or anything like 402 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.160 that. But yes, iron Rand said once, the left, because it's 403 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.279 Marxist, is materialist. Therefore they care about the material world. Therefore they 404 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.920 want to control and regulate the economy. They don't believe in the spiritual world, 405 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.240 so they don't care what you do in your bedroom. They don't care 406 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.640 how you behave. Generally, they leave you alone in the spiritual world. 407 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.920 The right not even not to anymore. But it wasn't the old left right, 408 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.279 and then the old right didn't care about the material world because there's an 409 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.640 afterlife, right, So the material world doesn't matter. So, yeah, 410 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.200 you can do your capitalism if you want. It's kind of grubby and we 411 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:38.960 don't really like it. But you can do your trade and your free markets. 412 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:41.960 But the spiritual world that's important. What you do in bed, that's 413 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.200 really important. Said that we want to regulate. What's interesting about the modern 414 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.680 left and right is now they both care about everything, and they want to 415 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.559 regulate everything, and they want to control everything, and they don't want to 416 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.680 leave us even a little bit of freedom. That's why we talk about an 417 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.759 opportunity for the classical liberalism. Now is the time, I think the left 418 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.400 and the right of proving themselves to be completely bankrupt. People are starting to 419 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.680 get it that there's something really really wrong in the culture, something really really 420 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:12.519 really wrong in the economy. The economy is approaching bankruptcy in the West. 421 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:15.079 The culture is approaching bankruptcy in the West. Now is the time to offer 422 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:20.960 an alternative, and I think I think the alternatives you know, and the 423 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.720 way to do that is there no shortcuts here. The way to do that 424 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.960 is educate, educated, educated, educate, teach people about this alternative. 425 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.279 Teach people about freedom, Teach people about the value of freedom to their own 426 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:36.440 life, Teach people about the value to the culture and to the economy of 427 00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:39.000 freedom. And we need to We need to talk talk, talk, educated, 428 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.960 educa educate and get the word out. They write books, write articles, 429 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.319 do podcasts, do videos, do whatever we can to get a clear, 430 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:52.000 consistent and this is where again and for truth right, a consistent message 431 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:59.279 of the value of liberty without denying real issues and real problems and real challenges, 432 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:02.720 and how in presenting we need to present solutions. But I think there 433 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:09.720 we are facing another huge challenge beyond education, because you know, the way 434 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:16.319 democracy is structured, unless it's very restrained by constitution, is that, you 435 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:22.759 know, politicians can spend money essentially, and if you can spend money, 436 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.079 you can sell ideas about the ways of spending that money. So one problem 437 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:35.359 is that we don't have any limitation on where the state can get involved, 438 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.920 you know. But the other problem is that the state has no limit on 439 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:44.200 the amount of resources it controls, right, sure, So so it's an 440 00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.319 upheal battle. It's very difficult for us. I would say that this is 441 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:52.680 a reason why I think the most powerful tool we have today beyond the ideas 442 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.519 that we have is the web, is the Internet. I mean, it 443 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.960 doesn't cost as much to get onto the Internet, doesn't as much to produced 444 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.640 videos. I mean, they're people producing videos and making a lot of money 445 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:07.199 off of just iPhones and stuff. It doesn't it doesn't require the kind of 446 00:34:07.199 --> 00:34:12.039 capital and resources to educate people like it did in the past past, thet 447 00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.719 a study, university at a study. Now you can do everything online, 448 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:21.079 so I think, I mean, I find it disappointing that people who advocate 449 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:27.039 for free markets have not better utilized and better capitalized on the existence of the 450 00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:31.119 Internet and no ability to communicate ideas to large numbers of people at a marginal 451 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:37.119 cost of close to zero. And uh, and we've left even these channels 452 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.199 too. I'd say the right is pretty good at it, you know, 453 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:44.760 the Jordan Peterson's the bit of pewers of the world. And then and of 454 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.239 course the left does us a good at it. And where is where's our 455 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:52.199 Jordan Peterson, where's our capturing the imagination of people? Where's us using this 456 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:58.920 new medium to communicate effectively with the world and inspire. That's the other thing 457 00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:02.480 we need. And this is something I think that's really important. Young people 458 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.199 are idealistic, they want to believe in some kind of ideal and I think 459 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.079 the left is very good. They've got this suit, this bizarre notion of 460 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.039 what socialism can do if we get it just right this time. And the 461 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:22.719 right has some idealism in religion, and so I think it's less attractive to 462 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.320 young people. But you know, maybe when Jordan Peterson tells them to make 463 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:31.880 their bed, that's attractive. But we need we need to be idealistic. 464 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:35.800 We need to portray a beautiful picture of the future. What we do a 465 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.239 lot, and we're very good at, is complaining. We complain about the 466 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:42.159 world today, we complain about the present, we complain about the government, 467 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.920 we complain about the culture. But we are not very good at projecting our 468 00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:52.119 ideal and projecting what is possible and giving people the tools to live the best 469 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:53.199 life that they can do. Again, I think this is one of our 470 00:35:53.320 --> 00:36:00.320 Man's strengths because she wrote novels, she told stories, stories would project I 471 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:06.320 think a particularly philosophical ideal that I think young people respond to. It's why 472 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.440 she's so popular among young people. But we need to do a much better 473 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:15.360 effort on every fund from economics all the way to morality and projecting and an 474 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:22.159 ideal and exciting people and getting them excited and passionate about the future. That 475 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:29.039 this free market classical liberal ideology can lead to I think you've touched on a 476 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:34.480 very important point, which is how to attract young people. And I would 477 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:38.880 even specify that we really need to attract creative people. You know, and 478 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:45.719 you've mentioned Jordan Peterson. Even Jordan Peterson is a part of this problem with 479 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:54.320 the left right dichotomy because you've probably heard the way he describes liberals versus conservatives. 480 00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:59.920 His vision is that, you know, like liberalist liberals are in her 481 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:07.519 this creative types, and conservatives are order oriented types. This is liberals in 482 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:10.760 the American sense. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem because when Jordan Peterson 483 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:20.400 talks about liberals versus conservatives, he really talks about leftists versus conservatisms, and 484 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.719 he doesn't see a place for true liberals there. Yeah, but he's also 485 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:27.719 wrong. I mean, it's also wrong because the reality is, if you 486 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.719 look at who is a strong leftist in the United States, it's not just 487 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:38.360 the creative types. It's lawyers, and it's it's successful people. I mean, 488 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:43.800 that's the sad thing. Smart people, smartest successful people attracted liberalism for 489 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.519 all kinds of reasons. Liberalism and Americans, the left, leftist partially because 490 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:52.239 they've rejected religion and and and because they they taught that this is techotomy. 491 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.599 If you're religious, you're you know, that's conservatives, So you don't want 492 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:59.960 to be that. So all they've got is kind of this exact And partially 493 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:05.000 because the right rejects science and rejects I think, seeking truth in this world, 494 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:07.960 they tend to go left, you know, So I think, yes, 495 00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.760 we definitely need creative types. If you know what, I also think 496 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.679 we need Nobel prizes in physics. Imagine a Nobel Prize and physicists, you 497 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:22.280 know the Nobel Price speech talking about the liberty to think and to use his 498 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:27.480 reason on problems that may be the conventional wisdom that you know. This is 499 00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.800 what I mean by I think what a broader vision of what liberty and freedom 500 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.000 mean and how they apply to individual life and how they can inspire individual people. 501 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.679 Because the kind of thinking that leads us to say entrepreneurs should be allowed 502 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:43.840 to start any company they want without asking permission also says to the scientist, 503 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:49.320 you can explore any venture you want without asking for permission and without the government 504 00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:52.039 dictating. We're now on this is a hot thing, so we'll give only 505 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:57.559 money to that. So it's it's we need people in all fields. I 506 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.639 think the most important ones a creative fields. Arts. I think is aesthetics 507 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:05.840 is crucial. The reason I don't think we would have had any enlightenment without 508 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.519 our innascence, right, So you have to have the art, maybe even 509 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:14.159 before you have the more ideological part of it. So what we need we 510 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:21.800 need sculptures and painters and musicians and novelists and video makers and moviemakers, um. 511 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.559 And then I think we need educators. We need a lot of educators. 512 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:29.320 We need people who can teach and educate people, whether they do it 513 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:31.760 online or whether they create their own schools, or whether they create alternatives. 514 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:38.679 We need scientists. We need to link our vision to science because because I 515 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:43.360 think science is an incredibly powerful tool and a good tool. Again, I 516 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.239 think part of the part of the damage libertarians are doing in the post COVID 517 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:52.800 era, if you will, is blaming scientists for what happened, and and 518 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.440 and and maybe some scientists need to be blamed. They made mistakes, right 519 00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:02.159 and and some of them, some of them just but to blame science to 520 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:06.519 wrap it all up, and we don't want, you know, scientists well, 521 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:08.320 scientists have an important world to play, and they tell us something about 522 00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.800 the physical world that we didn't know, that we don't know. Not all 523 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:15.239 of us can know these things. Not everybody's the epidemiologist, even though everybody 524 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:20.880 is an amateur epidemologist these days, among among conservatives and the materials in particular, 525 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.960 we need experts. We need scientists, let's not throw that out. 526 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:29.880 So we need a whole We need young people, we need idealists, we 527 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:35.239 need passionate people. We need people to understand how important freedom is to their 528 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.800 own lives and understand it. What they really want is to make their lives 529 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.960 the best life that they can live exactly. So, I think if we 530 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:52.400 were more successful at disassociating classical legoralism from conservatism and from anarchy, we would 531 00:40:52.440 --> 00:41:00.440 attract more creative types, because this is the ideology of freedom right completely. 532 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:05.719 And even with your example about London in the nineteenth century, I think there 533 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:09.800 is the answer to the issue why we need scientists, you know, because 534 00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:15.159 to weigh the pros and cons to weigh the risks, you have somebody to 535 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.239 calculate that right roughly speaking, right, and we're living in it right now. 536 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.239 I mean somebody has to calculate the risk of climate change. Yeah. 537 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:28.119 Somebody has to calculate the risk of not using fossil fuels. Yeah. And 538 00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.880 and somebody has to give us at least a vision about what is possible in 539 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:35.199 so of alternatives. Yeah, the common man, most of us can do 540 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:37.400 it. I don't know what those all of them and get eat up about 541 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:43.000 it. I'm educated somewhat about it. But those somebody has to provide do 542 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.440 the lab work that is necessary to provide data so that we know what we're 543 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:52.760 doing. So absolutely, I think we need I think the classical levels need 544 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.400 to separate themselves from from the right. I think they've been associated with the 545 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:01.840 right, with very negative element within the right, you know, and particularly 546 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:07.280 today with the rise of nationalism and the ways of authoritarian rights and the rise 547 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:14.239 of a of a kind of a kind of paleo right, and it's very 548 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.719 dangerous I think for those those who believe in freedom to be associated with them. 549 00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:20.960 And of course I think it's easier to disassociate with the left, but 550 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:24.880 we should make sure that we're not lumped in together with because maybe we use 551 00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:30.079 the word liberal sometimes lumped together with the left. We need to define all 552 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:36.199 of the space. We are the advocates of liberty and freedom and individual rights 553 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.440 and limited government. Sure, So to wrap it up, let's talk a 554 00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:45.599 little bit about the history how we got here. Right, So, obviously 555 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.960 founding fathers of the US they had their own flaws, there were different people. 556 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:58.679 But on the other hand, I would guess that they simply didn't envision 557 00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.920 all the potential risks which would come with technological progress, which would come with 558 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:09.559 democracy, because you know, like there was not much evidence about democracy back 559 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:14.400 in seventeen seventy six. Right, Well, they wrote about democracy. So 560 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.320 Madison writes about democracy, and he warns us about democracy, and he says, 561 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.159 democracy, we are not creating a democracy in America. Democracy is a 562 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:28.079 bad thing. Democracy is always devolved into majoritarian rule where the majority oppresses the 563 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.599 minority. It's why ultimately we have a Bill of Rights in the American constitutions. 564 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:35.679 So they were very aware of the risk of democracy. But you're right, 565 00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:37.920 they didn't know all the risks. I mean, in that'sry evolution. 566 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:43.840 We hadn't started yet, the kind of progress hadn't existed. They didn't understand 567 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:45.840 all of its We have now two hundred and fifty years of experience. We 568 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:50.119 know what the flaws are with the Constitution. We could do a much better 569 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.760 job, I think. But I'd say the deeper flaws with the founders. 570 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:58.800 And they were philosophical, intellectual And again I'm not blaming them because again they 571 00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:01.480 were writing the Seven the seventies. Uh, they only knew what they knew. 572 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.000 But the reality is that that America is founded on on on a certain 573 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:15.239 ideology of quicksand of you know, they weren't quite willing to give up the 574 00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:21.719 I find out a foundation that is laid in uh in religion. Um, 575 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.280 so they were man an enlightenment that said religion should be in your home. 576 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:31.079 But they didn't really have an alternative methodology for for for living, for values, 577 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.159 for morality, for discovering truth. So they are They're conflicted, man, 578 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:39.480 And that I think ultimately is in UH. Is in the is in 579 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:44.599 the founding. This is why I think to some extent they feel responsible for 580 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:49.360 the common good. And therefore Thomas Jefferson gets involved in public education very very 581 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.880 quickly because it's for the common good. Whereas I think we understand that there 582 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.760 is no such thing as the common good. There's the good of individuals that 583 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:01.000 you can aggregate in some sense, but there's know, we're not targeting the 584 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:05.519 common good. We're targeting the good for individuals, and were in the good 585 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.480 for individual as a as as as the best within an individual is to be 586 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:13.239 free, and we're leaving people free. And some people would abuse that some 587 00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:17.320 people ruin their lives because they free. But also maybe to give a particular 588 00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:25.679 example, like the US was founded on literally on the opposition to the exhaustive 589 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:31.280 taxation, right, So but they probably probably it was hard for them to 590 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:37.960 envision that we would have states like controlling fifty percent of the GDP. Yeah, 591 00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.480 but they you know, but from the beginning, they had they had 592 00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:45.800 tariffs from the beginning. They they struggled with how to balance this idea that 593 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:51.440 they knew taxes or somehow bad cousion and force and with the needs of the 594 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:53.679 state. And they struggled with their taxes were very low in the beginning. 595 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.960 But you know, maybe they couldn't predict the fifty percent, but maybe tens 596 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:04.280 it crept up quite dramatically. Of course, they were founded on the on 597 00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.960 the great contradiction of slavery, and that should have been a real indication that 598 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:10.639 something was going to give something was a problem here. But you know, 599 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.599 they gave the government the right to coin money. They gave the government the 600 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:19.760 ability to do things that I don't think government needs to do or should do. 601 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:24.000 That open up a Pandora's box in terms of violation of rights. Maybe 602 00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:28.880 not now, but as we move forward. You know, they found the 603 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.960 beginning banking, for examples, regulated in America. So as good as they 604 00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:36.840 were, and they were about as good as any political group of people ever 605 00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:42.719 were, they didn't know, they couldn't predict. We now have a lot 606 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.280 more data, We have a lotable knowledge. We also have I think better 607 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.360 ideas. Again I will mention I'm mad because I think she's a key figure 608 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:57.079 in some ways in completing the philosophical mission of the Enlightenment, in solidifying our 609 00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:00.559 defensive reason and solidifying our defense of this idea, pursuit of happiness, of 610 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:07.440 individualism. And we have a lot more capabilities today to a create a better 611 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.440 constitution, but also just to educate people about life in a way that would 612 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.079 pose less of a threat to whatever govern we instudent. Let's remember that no 613 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:20.719 matter how strong the constitution is, if people don't want it, it won't 614 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.760 survive. So you know, when Franklin, I think it was Franklin walked 615 00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:28.360 out or maybe Madison walked out of the Constitutional Hall, somebody asked him what 616 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:32.639 government did you give us, and he said, a republic if you can 617 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.360 keep it, right, and it's if you could keep it. And then 618 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:42.719 there's a phrase about eternal vigilance for the cause of liberty. We the people 619 00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:45.840 always have to be vigilant. We the people always have to be But to 620 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:47.519 do that, we have to be educated about it. We have to commit 621 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:51.000 to it, we have to believe in it, we have to want it. 622 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:53.360 We have to want freedom. And that's where I think we need to 623 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:58.559 educate people and the value of freedom to their lives, to why it's good 624 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.679 for them to be free. Now, you know, we'd like to talk 625 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:06.880 about abstractions and demand supply and how does it affect my life? Well, 626 00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:09.840 here's a whole menu of it affect your life in every aspect. Thank you 627 00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:15.119 very much. I think what you just said summarizes our issue, our topic 628 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:22.519 pretty well. So thank you for finding time for this podcast. Thanks for 629 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:29.639 having me. Bye.