Post you look at question, don't touch down side rushers, cony, don't
jumps down sideway downs say done, Don just or dusts try t y ty
n n us right everybody that Don said the sky side the stock transiskys the
sky to sky Man T. Scott, May twenty eight, twenty fifteen.
The Ocelli Effect is live on uc why TV Radio. Thank you for deciding
to tune in utilizing your final slab of choice using your Apple pblical application of
choice. Thanks do appreciate it. Of course we are you know, we
are sort of at home at ucy dot TV slash te and this is one
of those nights. I'll tell you it throws me off a little bit because
the introduction to the show is a lot louder and more obnoxious in my headphones
than it is for you guys. So think about that for a minute when
you want to complain about it. Anyway, tonight, what we're gonna do
is in the series with the whole you know, JFK myths, getting rid
of the assassination myths, we have mainly attacked all of the really bad not
all. Let me correct myself real quick. All it is endless. The
amount of bad conspiracy stuff out there. But night, we're gonna start off
focusing on the problem with the alleged official story, so everybody can stop complaining
that all I did was attack other conspiracy theory type oriented individuals. Now we're
going to do it the other way, and there's a reason for it.
Of course, the myths do wind up coming fast and furious from all sides.
So let's try and get some things straight. And I got some really
interesting guys to do this with me tonight, and I'm real happy because,
first of all, I've got, well, anybody who listens to my show
regularly knows, Carmine Sabistano from Anneapolis media group. How you doing tonight,
Carmine? Pretty good? Chuck? How are you doing tonight? All right?
And of course this makes me especially happy. I got Rob Clark with
us from the Lone Gunman podcast. How you doing, brother good? Chuck?
How are you all right? And we're gonna add Charles Cliff in just
a moment. Hm, I gotta grab him myself, but we're gonna have
Charles Cliff and this makes it a very interesting roundtable, gentlemen, So real
happy about this. Let's see now and the blind guy fiddles with the skype.
Let's see if Charles is there all right, maybe maybe not. Either
way, we can begin to move forward and Charles can add in at a
later time. So guys, like I said, we've been through this.
Carmine and I anyway have been through this a lot. And of course this
is what you spend a lot of time on rob is debunking the conspiracy oriented
stuff. But we're gonna start off with the alleged official story. So let's
give everybody kind of an idea what that is to start with, right,
this is the Oswald is the lone gunman. Which again, you know,
the more I think about the name of your podcast, brother, the more
I like it because you are alone. Sorry, go ahead, I was
just saying many different meanings exactly. That's the thing is, depending on your
mood, it can go in a lot of different directions. But see,
that's the whole thing is when it comes to the first official explanation, because
realize there's actually two official government explanations for the JFK assassination, one being that
we have a loan gunman, a loan assassin, a loan nut, and
the other being we do still have a loan nut, but he probably didn't
do it alone. Kind of two different meanings. But we're going to focus
on the whole Oswald acting alone absolutely kind of thing tonight. Oh boy,
and Charles, you're with us? Now? I am with you? Yes,
ah, Charles Cliff good. All right. Now we've got the four
which is what I wanted. All right, So let's break it down for
everybody. Look, here's the deal, right, You've got Oswald who is
in the book depository, who allegedly fires three shots, who scores at least
two shots on Kennedy, killing him, wounding Governor Connolly, then fleeing from
the scene, and allegedly killing Officer JD. Tippett. This is the guy
that they arrested a little while later in a movie theater after he fled the
scene, went and retrieved a handgun. And you know, there's a whole
lot of details in between. And I'm sure that anybody who wants to familiarize
themselves with this, can, you know, just go to their on demand
services with their cable company and probably find something from the Discovery Channel, the
History Channel or online or wherever else, and you'll find the whole Oswald lone
nut scenario played out one hundred different ways, Am I correct? Guys?
Yeah, Oh, there's always no shortage of people who want to tell you
that's what happened. Absolutely, absolutely, But we're going to kind of reverse
engineer this a little bit. Okay, let's just imagine for a moment that
you know, we're coming into this completely uneducated, and we want to start
to assemble, start to assemble what you might do. And what's the typical
thing they talk about with a criminal case where you have a murder, you
have a wounding, you have an assassination of a human being in broad daylight.
But you know, what is it that they would do, Well,
they first come up with a suspect, and they would you know, end
up by investigating other aspects of the crime. They would lead themselves to a
suspect, and then when they want to prosecute them, they would which Oswald
was never actually prosecuted. Special note for the uneducated out there, but oh
boy, convicted in the public's mind, convicted by the Warrant Commission, you
know, in absentia, posthumously whatever. Right, let's begin with the whole
theory of what's means, you know, motive and opportunity. We always hear
that phrase, don't we. I want to make sure to give the other
gentleman a chance to tuck. You know, I'll talk to the whole episode
if we can. Well, right, I mean, Rob, I want
to hear your commentary on this, because, like I said, you know,
Carmine's been on. We could go back and forth and just do this
ourselves, but I want to get your commentary on this. Well. The
first thing I'll address is motive. That's a big, big problem for moon
nutters, and it was a big, big problem for the Warren Commission.
You know, I had a couple of loon numbers on the show, and
none of them had a very good answer when I asked them, you know,
what could possibly be the motive? You know, and none of them
has come up with a very good answer, and needed did the war Commission.
Well, yeah, isn't that? The reality is that even the Warren
Commission themselves could not properly demonstrate a motive for Oswald. There is no proper
motive. There's sort of a generalized understanding that he's supposed to be, you
know, a communist, somebody who is a red type sympathizer and that's really
commensurate with the time, you know, because that was easy to sort of
seize upon public opinion and say, yeah, that guy's guilty and whatever else.
But the reality is, even the Warren Commission doesn't present a clear motive
for the crime, do they No, I don't think they do. I
agree with Rob and what you said. And now I'm sure Charles has something
to say about it as well. When once Charles says something about it,
I have a document I want to offer that I think exhibits their entire lack
of motive even internally that they were discussing. Right, So, Charles,
what do you think about you know, Oswald's motive, the fact that the
Warrent Commission has none, and the fact that generally speaking, you know,
there's not really even a clear motive among those who want to insist that we're
all crazy when we say this can't be the correct story. When you go
into a court of law, they say that three most important things improving a
crime is means, motives, an opportunity, and in most courts of law,
two out of three just is enough. They want you to establish all
three, and in this case it has never once been established. But the
motive is, and they kind of had it evolving the Warrant Commission. At
one point he was a community yes, at another point he was a lone
nut that wanted it to be famous. There's this, there's that, there's
everything, but they've never nailed it down. And because every time they try
and do one of these things saying either he's a low nut or a cop
me or whatnot, other conflicting evidence comes up to, you know, kind
of disprove that. So that's the biggest, really, the biggest law in
the whole case against him is that motive was never and to this day has
never been properly ever established, Right, so those that sort of buy into
the stories support it and publicly continue to produce, you know, documentaries,
books, et cetera, et cetera, you know, on the case that
want to insist that he's the absolute lone assassin. What they wind up settling
for is an amalgamation of all of these fragmentary sort of motives that never actually
pan out. Yeah, I mean, wouldn't you say that's about accurate?
I'm gon say yeah. And they use bits and pieces of each one to
try and put them all together and say this is a motive. Well,
if you have different pieces of a few different puzzles, they're not going to
fit together. They're gonna come up with some mishmash that doesn't make any sense.
And this is what you got here, right. I mean, they
tried the pinion as a loan nut, a crazy person, a violent person.
And you know, they went into his history. They can know his
passing, his mother, his relationship with Marina, supposedly, and in order
to paint him as this crazy person that was capable of just one day waking
up and signed he was going to shoot the president. And on that note,
I think that Rob introduced the supposed crazy person idea, which is one
that people like to bandy about. And I want to go into a file
from Arthur Dooley, who was supposedly the Oswald internal specialist at the CIA and
was involved in a lot of the file handling of Oswald, and some of
the files never got back from Duley according to some of the other files.
But Duley states, at your request, I have reviewed approximately one hundred FBI,
Secret Service, Dallas Police, and State Department reports relative to the assassination
of President John F. Kennedy, and I have examined a large volume of
related matter, includingly Oswald's writings. Some of the FBI reports contain hundreds of
pages. Now let me stop for a second. I would guarantee that all
of us talking right now have read as much as Duley. In fact,
I'll contend that I've read a lot more than Duly if this is all he's
read. But this is what Duly gets from it. All of the available
evidence points to a solitary act of a mentally unstable person. What triggered him
off has not been determined and more than likely never will be resolved. So
we're not going to have a motive, is basically what he's saying. We
don't need one, We can't put one together with the evidence we got,
So you know, whatever he didn't is basically the overall message. Yeah,
he's just kooky, and based on what sort of you know, expert opinion
he's offering here is pretty interesting, you know, because taking a look at
those files, what it is that he, you know, claims he looked
through, which you know, the available evidence I understand would be limited,
et cetera. But I mean, the reality here is that you don't have
a portrait of a really unstable guy from what they had in their hands that
we know of right now, what you have is a guy who's a little
bit haphazard in the way he conducts his life. You know, doesn't seem
to have a direction. He's sort of rudderless as a person in a lot
of places and gets himself into mischief for you know, making statements and doing
things that he's not supposed to. I mean, I love the fact that
And I don't even know if they had possession of his full military records when
they made that evaluation. I don't think. So this is sixty four,
so this is this is right during the commission. Yeah. And the thing
is, you know, a whole lot of that stuff, you know,
they were working with limited files. And I know a lot of people make
that excuse about the Warrant Commission's conclusions, but you know, fragmentary evidence still
is not you know, is not enough to create this you know, like
I said, this amalgamy motive. You know, you have like inconclusive results
about his psychology based on his history. And meanwhile, these aren't even psychologists
that are studying it. I'm not saying that they didn't do that at some
point. But a whole lot of people are passing judgment on this guy's psychology
who was only twenty four years of age, who really hadn't quite picked out
a direction in life. I mean, we're talking about a guy who signed
up, went into the Marine Corps and then you know, immediately leaving on
a hardship discharge, goes and you know, shows up in Russia on a
tourist visa, decides to defect over there, stays there for a couple of
years, comes back with a Russian wife and a baby, where he's got
a dysfunctional relationship. And almost anybody would agree on this, you know,
I mean, and from any side of the spectrum would agree on that characterization
of that point in his life. And I basically just described his entire adulthood.
I mean, unless you guys think I'm crazy here, Leo had found.
One of the ridiculous things is that he tried to use the fact that
he had a truancy problem when he was in school as evidence of criminal behavior
or the evidence of a criminal in the making because he didn't want to go
to class. What TI What school student isn't truant from time to time?
That's kind of evidence. Yeah, there's a lot of character. There's a
lot of character assassination with little actual evidence. I mean, if they wanted
to make criminal connections, which they could have, they just didn't want to.
Uh, they could have gone back to his youth and Exchange alley under
Marcello's territory where DUTs got hooked up with Samsia and Samsia worked for Marcello.
So oh right, and and but this is the thing. You don't have
a lot to judge, you know what we're talking about here. His truancy
issue is is a ridiculous point. I mean, there was plenty of kids
that were that were true when I mean I had truancy issues. I've never
been convicted as an adult of any crime, like Scarface never convicted. He
had to go there, Rob, Is there anything you want to add to
this, because I mean, I'm so tired of having to beat down the
crazy kid Oswald thing. I'm really like at the point of going, Uh,
are we really having to go through this once more? How do you
feel about it? Well, I just want to add it. You know,
they always wanted to paint him as a loner, and it's evident throughout
his life. You know, he was he had friends in school, he
had friends in the Marine Corps, he had a lot of friends in Russia.
And he was always around family, you know, growing up, but
maybe not immediate family. Maybe he didn't always have a father around, Maybe
his mother was working. He really didn't have a lot of direction when he
was in his i'd say early teens, you know, until the time he
went to the Marine Corps. And as we know from photo evidence, you
know, he joined the Sewhere Patrol, you know, and maybe he got
some guidance from uh, you know men, you know, or various other
places. But that's that's typical. That's typical of any of any kid,
I mean, growing up, you know, without a father in his life
and a mother who's working all the time, trying to support their family,
you know. And you got to figure by this time his brothers are gone,
you know, when Oswalden is his in his early teen so you know,
his main goal is to get out of that house and get in the
Marine Corps as soon as possible. He's really not worried about with that point,
right, John Pick and Robert oswald are gone, so they can't exactly
be the great surrogate father figure for him. You know, if if we
were to claim that he even required one, which he might have, that
might explain some of his sort of actions regarding how he decided to socialize.
But he was not antisocial. He was not an isolationist. This is clear
just by the again, by the records they have in their own hands.
So you know, to say that he was just this isolated sort of individual
who was constantly seeking to be alone, constantly seeking solitude, this is a
ridiculous point. You know, I think that that's that entire scenario is twisted
by the fringe on each side. You've got the fringe people, you know,
you've got the fringe people on one side saying that he was this madman
who did all these crazy things. And then you've got the fringe on the
other side who want to defend him, saying that he was totally innocent,
that he was a super spy, which we know isn't true because he shot
himself. That's how he got his first court martial. Yeah, you know,
this isn't the this isn't the genius gunman that they try to prop up.
Yeah, you know, people that want to photoshop him into pictures with
puppies and things like that, exactly. You know, they turn around and
paint this picture of a James Bond, soft hearted, you know, sort
of progressive liberal, very deep, you know, And honestly, I don't
get that impression from most of the people that I can prove new him.
But okay, yeah, you know exactly. I mean, you know,
he's it's it's kind of like Jeff, you know. And I know that
people will give me flack for this, but whatever that. You know,
they say that I can be too cold in my analysis, But that's how
you have to be. You're not supposed to put any of these people on
a pedestal, whether it's jfker Oswald or Alan Dulles. They're all people,
they all have flaws, they've all done bad things. No one is completely
innocent. No one is completely guilty unless the evidence puts us there. Yeah,
people all far too often they involve it, you know, themselves,
emotionally. But where you're going into a case like this, where you're looking
at it and try to find answers, you can't be emotional about it.
You've got to just go with what the evidence is and just follow through with
it. Emotions got noting to do with it, right, And I'd also
like to point out, you know, when it comes to the motive,
uh, you know, with what Oswa was doing in New Orleans, uh,
you know before the assassination, you know, with his defection, they
could have easily used that pandhim as a Communist, Marxist or Procastro guy,
you know, acting on behalf of Castro, and then they would have had
a motive, okay, but they chose not to go that route. They
chose not to pursue that they would They instead painting him as a lone nut
with no motives. Well, you know, they started with that scenario internally,
with the whole Mexico City thing, which you know, in my estimation,
uh, you know, the the entire Mexico City episode is holy suspect.
You have the CIA who's surveilling you know, two particular installations, which
by the way, a consulate and an to see or two different things.
But anyway, you know, saying that they were surveilling this place constantly under
photographic surveillance, yet we have no legitimate photographic evidence for it. When you
trace back looking at all that stuff, I mean they sort of started to
go with that scenario, but I mean it was even far too ridiculous for
them to really embrace you know. Yeah, well, none of the things
line up. I mean, all of these supposed Oswald appearances are not congruent
to Lee Harvey Oswald. Whether it's Duran's red faced, short blonde haired man,
or it's Alvarado's tail or. You know, no one saw him actually
there that can be trusted, that has consistent testimony everything that happens. The
phone call that Winston Scott tried to remind everyone in the CIA about that was
in Spanish, which Oswald didn't speak, was using the name Oswald. You
know, none of the non of the wire taps they had in the consulates
of the embassies picked up you know, picked him up. Nobody Oswald's voice
was never identified and shown publicly, right, So I don't think they had
it. They didn't have pictures of him. He might have went to Mexico,
I'll go with that, but I don't think he ever went to one
of those two consulates or embassies. Yeah, right, thing too about the
no pictures. One of the reasons they tried to give, oh, there
was no pictures as the camera was broken. Well, part of the problem
is, yeah, the camera may have been broken, but they had multiple
cameras. So you tell me that every camera they had there was broken,
all at the same time, on the same day, and this happens to
just occur when Oswald is that, that doesn't make it. There's no way.
I mean, that was crazy. Yeah, yeah, so I do
believe gentlemen, we've completely disposed of the motive. But you know, and
Charles does point make a great point here regarding this, because you know,
they they really want you to have all three of these to convict him.
And again, I don't state that that means he's absolutely innocent, No,
no, no, no, I'm not one of these guys. I'm just
saying that to solely convict him as the loan assassin is a problem. And
that brings us to our next sort of part of the equation. We'll leave
motive aside. We'll just assume for a motive, you know, for a
moment, that there was a motive, but it can't be ascertained. Let's
just try that in our minds for a minute, even though it seems really
ridiculous. Okay, how about means, guys, So the means to carry
out the assassination. Well, would you say that I should wait for the
seventy two for opportunity? Oh, that fits under opportunity. Okay, I'll
wait for opportunity. I'll let you guys go. I'll try to think.
Oh, besides the gun, the problem with the gun that we all know,
of course, Well the problem. How many problems do you want?
Yeah, yeah, Well, you know you have the rusty firing pin.
You've got the fact that it's a remodeled uh former Italian World War Two rifle
that was sold a surplus. You've got the fact that some of those that
were modified in the lot blew up in the hands and killed three different owners,
which is why there was a suit going on between the supplier and the
distributor. Night nice list to start off with, Rob you want to add,
well, you know, there's the whole problem of actually getting this gun
traced back to Oswald as being the one that he supposedly ordered in the first
place. There's problems with you know, the model of the gun that he's
supposedly ordered being different from the one that he got. You there's a problem
with the money orders supposedly used to pay for the gun and it not ending
up in the right place or going through the right banks. And uh,
you know, Gil Gil Hayesus and John Armstrong had done a lot of good
work about that about the man Laker Karkano rifle and exactly you know, trace
it from from the time it hit the shores, you know, through the
gunsmith made this way to climbs and supposedly into Oswald's hands. And you know
they talk about the FBI going to going to clins, uh, you know,
the day after the assassination to try to figure out, you know,
if they could find his order slip, and they supposedly got there and spent
you know, all night there untill like five in the morning looking through all
these microfish files. Couldn't find anything. So they asked the manager of clients
if they could just take all the rest of it back to headquarters and see
if they can find something, and miraculously, three days later they do so.
Of course, then there's the problem, of course with the rifle of
his marks marksmanship and opportunity to actually practice or lack thereof, yes, right,
which is not to be confused with opportunity for the crime, because you
know, it could be assumed that somehow he has a natural ability, I
guess. But the thing is, all of these things, when put together
like that, in and of itself, is not enough to dismiss it.
But the fact that he's got no time to practice, there's no way to
site in the weapon, which would have been required if it was actually a
broken down weapon that had entered the school book depository. The fact that you've
got money orders that don't have the proper you know, the proper chain of
stamps on them to go through the federal reserve system. The fact that you've
got this package being delivered to a post office box to an alleged you know,
alias of Oswald's, where that alias wasn't even actually allowed to collect mail
at that post office box. You know, all kinds of stuff where it
just kind of says, we don't have a clear paper trail on the weapon.
And then please don't even get started on the handgun, because how is
it that Roadway Express delivers a handgun to a post office box, that post
office box. Yeah, Charles, you want to say something about that,
Well, yeah, I just I was gonna you brought out you actually saw
my thunder their truck because That's what I was gonna bring up, is that
it was I believe it was actually called railway Express and courier services that brings
a pistol to a post office box. Well, the only thing that goes
into post office box or the United States fail not stuff brought by couriers.
Another problem with the rifle is he paid Oswald initially when he ordered it was
either the rifle of the pistol one or two. When he ordered it he
paid ten dollars down and the rest with COD. Well, if it's delivered
to a post office box, who paid for it? I don't think the
guy'd be a post office because say, oh okay, here's twenty bucks.
No. COD only works if you're delivering it directly to the person, and
as we know in this case, that's not what happened. It went to
post office box. So who paid for it? And is there any chaine
of command who paid for it? And the more and more you look at
it you unrail more. The more layers you unravel, the more the story
falls apart. Right, I was thinking I did misspeak when I said roadway
was railway Express, which you know a modern day equivalent would be like ups
you know, in a way, because they are a service which delivers packages
like this, but UPS checked with the UPS office. They can't deliver stuff
to a US Post Office box because as you just said, you know,
only United States Postal Service circulated matter ends up in post office boxes, you
know, not to mention the fact that also there was you know, all
sorts of considerations in place, the specific paperwork that needed to be filled out
in order to ship firearms through the mail. And does anybody know where any
that stuff is? And another thing, no, I don't think. Another
thing that's also strange is that Oswald sends this money order for the rifle the
client sporting goods. He sends it, and I believe it is by the
end of the next day, it's received and deposited intocline's account, going from
Texas to Chicago in one day and processing into the account. This is before
or computers. But in twenty four hours he sends his money order and it's
in the client's account. That just seems extremely especially considering we're talking about nineteen
sixty three year, not modern day where everything now is like direct transfer.
To have it done one day, that's like light speed. And even if
you did attempt to do it in one day in modern times, okay,
try sending something through the post office overnight, okay, and getting it to
a destination and then also getting that into a bank. You know, it's
hard to do now, you know, forget nineteen sixty three. I mean,
everything took longer. It's just a reality, right, Rob. You
wanted to add something to that, Yeah, I was just saying, yeah,
yeah, that's just not possible. I mean, like you said,
it's not possible. Now it wasn't possible. Then it's a fantasy. And
just on an interesting side note, I thought I would add in here that
as part of Jerry Patrick Hemming's application to the CIA, he put down as
a past employer Climbs Sporting Goods, Chicago, Illinois. Isn't that interesting?
That's funny, right? They supposedly denied his request to you know, become
a CIA agent, but you know the paper work is there, and you
know it was one of his past employers. Yeah, you want to give
a brief explanation who who? Because we all know who Hemming is, But
you want to give a brief explanation as to who Heming is in your estimation,
Well, that's a daunting task, chuck. Uh. Jerry Hemming is
a lot of different things to a lot of different people. That's good.
You know, he was basically a you know, a mercenary, an anti
Castro Cuban raider for hire, you know too. It was part of inter
Penn. Did he start inter Penn or found it? I believe. But
he's he's buddies with like people like Philip Vidal Santiago and Lawrence Hall or Lawrence
Howard and Lawrence Hall, William Seymour, guys like that that that always get
implicated in some form or fashion in the assassination. You know, he's one
of the anti Castro contingent, right, yeah, right, didn't like Frank
Sturgis. Uh. You know, but he was always somehow in the the
wrong place at the right time, if you know what I mean. Uh,
or the right place at the wrong time, depending on who he's telling
the story to. Because he even admitted himself that he lies to researchers.
So what's the real truth. It's hard to say. Very good. I
was just gonna say I would not advise the listener if you're unfamiliar with Hemming
to involve yourself in the nexus because the guy admits himself that he's a liar
at various points and UH and misled a lot of a lot of people who
were honestly interested in the UH in the various you know, sort of overlapping
scenarios regarding the anti castro tingent, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,
this guy is definitely one of those, you know, don't bother with
the rabbit tail. Yeah, And I think that he exemplifies the danger of
taking the word of anyone who even may have been a witness to some things,
whether or not it goes as far as they might claim that they can
lie. And they will lie, sometimes for money, sometimes for fame,
sometimes just to stop you in your research so that you can't find out anything
else. I would say, sometimes just for fun. Yeah, I would
say, once somebody goes out and admit, yeah, I'm a liar,
I lie to people, I think you pretty much got to qualk into question
pretty much anything that guy said. But he's an that he lies. I
don't know how you could go anywhere else. That's why I've never put any
stock into what what That other guy, the guy that was trying to blame
LBJ and mac Walliff Rochester. Ye know the guy that was sorry, Rob,
you know what? Right? We talked about it, yes, and
admitted under old that he's a liar. So once someone says that, sorry,
I'm gonna take with what you say with the greatest helm now. Absolutely,
And and I don't want to get too far off track, as we've
only covered the weapon as far as means, but hey, let's you know,
why not touch upon his skill level for a moment. Suh. You
know you got something you want to add to that core amine? Oh yeah,
yeah, Well that was always my big contention, and I argued for
months. I'm happy to see that the evidence finally came out to support,
you know, the side that I was contending. That he didn't have the
time for practice. And if you look in firearms manuals, a good one
is by LP Breezy, where they actually break down the process that you have
to have firing practice with the Karkano mechanism because the trigger mechanism is such that
you're going to have to be adjusting things if you're not familiar with it,
which is going to take too much time. And if he doesn't have the
time to make the shots, then someone else has to be firing to have
that many bullets. Yeah, well there's the problem. And then of course
there is also you know, I don't know if anybody else wants to add
into his skill level and all that. Well, I was just gonna say
that firing a rifle and being a markman is not just something that you can
just stop for you know, fight some time and then just pick up and
skill stay the same. It's not like softball where you stop playing in October
and then you come back in like May and you start hitting home runs.
If you're going to be a marksman, that's something you've got to continuous sleep
cracket. Otherwise, if you don't and you don't fire for a while,
your skills will degrade. That's why you see these people who go into the
Olympics and like is they're shooting the biathm on one where they're going around shooting
target. They're practicing year round for years to maintain a level that's worthy of
them going into competition. If they were to stop and then three years later
picking up, their skills would be complete. I think the greatest they would
be, you know, not worthy of it. So it's something that you
have to keep up and again in this case, we have no evidence that
he ever did. Yeah, I definitely agree with what Charles said there.
And if you look throughout his life as his you can actually see his skills
degrade because in fifty six he gets the highest marks, because that's when he's
doing the most training, he's most interested in the Marines. He hasn't lost
his faith in anything. You know, he's really into it. So that's
when he makes I believe it was just over a sharpshooter. And then three
years later he becomes a marksman, which is a lower grade, which is
a okay shot, not very good. And then now I had a few
more years where he goes to Russia. He never has access to rifles because
those are illegal in Russia. He only has access to the shotguns, which
he rarely uses. Marina's friends tease him that he never brings his gun on
the hunting club trips and never uses it, so he's not getting any regular
practice so and not with a rifle at all. So when he comes back,
he doesn't have a rifle in his hands that we can prove, that
anyone can prove. Until he gets the rifle, supposedly from the mail and
he never practices with it. He dry fires a little bit one time that
has been notably proven that Marina claims she saw him doing on the porch.
He was moving the bolt, but that's not firing practice. You can't operate
the trigger mechanism quickly and efficiently. Now add in all the other problems that
we've discussed, add in the problem, you know, with the scope.
Then they say, well, I use the iron sights. Okay, Well,
if he use the iron sights, he's still got to be able to
move it quick enough. He's still got to be able to fire, and
he obstructions. It just doesn't stack up. It's very improbable in my opinion.
Well, you know what else is not mentioned very often is the fact
that where is his ammunition? He only had just enough shots to you know,
just enough bullets, you know, in the gun for that day left
after all of this, you know, alleged surreptitious practicing that he might have
had to have done. I mean, where's his ammo? Did Did anybody
know that? Yeah? That's a good point, because they checked his garage,
the Ruth Payne's garage in her house and all her storage plats there.
They checked Beckley they checked every gunshot around Dallas, no one that ever sold
him any sort of AMMO, found no one that ever saw him in any
gunshot buying AMMO, and found no evidence that he ever No boxes, no
receipts, no nothing. Are you telling me the guy went out and just
randomly found four bullets? I mean they came from somewhere. Where did they
come from? Okay? Well, the devil's advocate argument here is that each
of the weapons came with enough rounds through the mail order. But then,
like I said, when it comes to practicing, he's got nothing to spare.
He's got a full clip for the carcano, and he's probably got enough
to load the uh, you know, to load the thirty eight. I
mean, that's it. Well to me, that just doesn't make any sense.
So he so he's that means he doesn't practice once. So uh then
you gotta ask yourself, well, then did he use another bullet? You
know from the Walker shooting, which is of course the bullet the Walker shooting
has never been matched up, So it just doesn't I just don't see.
It just doesn't make any sense. So he's gonna just rely on out of
the blue years after practicing in the Marines. He's just gonna have just enough
bullets and get three lucky chocolate. That was his master plan, to just
try and do this on a whim. I'm sorry it doesn't work. It's
lappable in my mind, right. And then on top of it, you
mentioned the Walker shooting. Of course, that goes back to the first thing
we discussed, which was motive, because they said that this was sort of
the dry run for him wanting to hit a significant figure. And uh,
and therefore, you know, shows part of his motive, part of him
building up to and all of that, you know, his state of mind,
what it was about. But there's a problem there too, or a
few anyway, you guys want to discuss that, Rob, Yeah, I
just wanted to point out too that when it comes to Oswald's ability, you
know, to shoot the rifle accurately. I mean, you have to put
yourself for a second up on the sixth floor as Oswald with that rifle in
your hands, and you're sitting there and you're wondering if anybody's gonna come in
on you, what are you gonna do. The President's motorcate is running late,
you know, and you're sitting there waiting and waiting and waiting, you
know, and there's a you know, there's a physical reaction to stress.
And unless Oswald was literally a cold blooded killer with nerves of steel, he
would have been shaking like a leaf trying to aim and fire that gun,
and he would have been a sweaty mess, you know, he'd have been
a wreck, really, and there's no evidence of that whatsoever. Well,
yeah, unless you want to believe Walter Cronkite, who you know, on
the day that the Warrant Commission report was released to the public, actually stated
with a straight face on TV that this may have been a factor regarding someone
shooting at a human being on any given day, but this was different because
this was the President of the United States. Yeah, but there's absolutely no
evidence whatsoever that Oswald had ever shot or tried to murder anyone. Well,
unless you, of course include General Walker into the mix, you know before,
which if it was him shooting at Walker, he didn't, he missed,
So you know, there's no there's no killed the four. That was
gonna be my point that if it was awful the shot it off Walker,
that's a ding against his accuracy because he couldn't fire successfully and shoot a target
that was sitting stationary, like half the distance in what jfp's car was.
So he had all the offer right and to accurately sort of point this out
to people, you know, you got to understand that Walker was a stationary
target sitting in like a den or an office in his house. I forget
exactly how they described the room, but I mean, this guy was sitting
in a chair and by some you know, happenstance, according to the official
story, just happened to bend down at the moment that somebody decided to fire
a bullet through his window and it ends up in the wall. Yep.
Okay, I think that's a pretty accurate, fair picture of what they try
to paint regarding the Walker shooting. So you're telling me that a guy who's
standing on ground level with his target who is not moving missed yet somehow made
the shots required in daily plaza with the means available. Yeah, from an
elevated position through you know, some tree branches, most likely, uh,
you know, at an odd Well, here's what always bothered me is,
Okay, he's gonna shoot the president of the United States and kill him.
They could clean get away. He's gonna go back and get a handgun,
and now he's gonna go somewhere and he's gonna kill a cop, and he's
gonna go to the movie theater. And then he's just gonna give up and
go quietly when they win a corner him. You know, he's not gonna
go out and a blaze of glory. It just never made sense. Well,
in fairness, if you have to trust the testimony of the cops,
which is difficult to do. But if you have to trust the testimony of
the cops, I mean, he did try and pull his weapon, didn't
do so good with the guy, that's right, because the Superman put his
hand in between the firing pin and the bullet, Is that right, Yeah,
that's right, actually stuck the webbing between his thumb and his forefinger in
between there and kept the hammer from falling. Yeah, but that's right.
That's a hell of a move there. That's like a Matrix style move,
you know, nineteen sixty three. Yeah, well, well yeah, as
Charles, yeah, in the dark is another good note. As Charles was
saying, you know about and you guys were commenting about the Walker incident,
just looking at that there's tons of problems with it. I mean, first
of all, look, get the target, general Walker. General Walker is
not some unassociated person to this case. And people might say, well,
you know, Oswald did go that one meeting with Michael Payn where he spoke
and apparently that in Walker's attitude, was enough to make him want to kill
him. Okay, well, if that's the case, then why did all
the witnesses see two men the days before and the time after the shooting?
You know, why is it that no one ever saw a lone person?
We then have to trust that Oswald went there and he missed. And as
Chuck stated earlier, if he can't make that shot, what are the odds
he's going to make the shots? As I said in Deally Plaza, you
know he if he doesn't have the means to do that, how did he
have the means to do it later with the same weapon which Marina allegedly states
was buried before and after the Walker shooting. You know, as Charles said,
they can't match the bullet. You know, Walker himself has an agenda
and Oswald fits into that agenda perfectly, and according to some files, Walker
may have been responsible for the entire thing being attributed to Oswald before the police
even said anything, because Walker, according to one file, was talking to
the German media days before Ruth Payne, ever turned the book over with the
note in it that Ever spurred the Walker incidents creation, which is also suspicious.
I was just gonna say another thing doesn't get brought up a lot,
but it kind of has always struck me as odd. Walker was known as
a very much a right wing leaning, you know general, he was very
much to the right wing almost fashion type. When JFK was president, he
was always considered by many to be sort of a left leaning, you know,
president, left leaning politician. Well, if you're shooting at both of
them, how is it if it's a political purposes, why would you shoot
it both of them, which are kind of on the opposite end of the
spectrum politically, if well, you know what the argument is there, and
I got to give them this is that at the time time, you know,
contemporaneous with the events here, Kennedy is not necessarily as left wing as
people paint him, you know, in the public's mind in some parts of
this country, you know, he might as well have been a communists,
that's for certain in certain sectors. But the reality is that the general public
perception and I'm assuming that Oswald, you know, didn't run in the most
extreme and I want you guys to hit this one wasn't exactly running in the
most extreme circles right wing wise. But the thing is that Kennedy wasn't necessarily
painted as the most far left person you could have. Now. Walker was
a far right guy and definitely had a discernibly different agenda. I mean,
if you were striking at the heart of a particular ideal, you know,
and you struck at Walker, it really didn't make a whole lot of sense
to go after Kennedy. But kind of he was anti segregation. Walker was
pro segregation, right, could in a mental institution? Well, yeah,
that does tend to upset people when you throw them in a mental Well you
know what, if anyone deserved to go to a mental institution for an observation,
it was Walker. Yeah, yeah, this is all true. And
still we're talking about and you know, I don't want to get too far
off track because we could do that all day. But you know, back
to the means. Okay, so the means to escape really not set up
very well he just sort of slipped out after he was already confronted. I
mean really, Baker would lament years later he wished he had shot him privately,
by the way, never I don't think made that statement publicly, but
he wished he had shot him after all the trouble he caused. Okay,
and that's Marion Baker, the guy who actually confronts him. And some people
argue about whether he had a soda in his hand or not. But interesting,
interesting if you believe he's got a soda, he shoots the president of
the United s States, is confronted by a cop a minute and a half
later, and he's got a soda in his hand. Well, yeah,
depending on what version, because I know that. You know, some people
have talked about how there's multiple versions in multiple floors that that supposedly might have
occurred on right, based on the DPD reports, which are a mess,
well and there and therein lies another problem is that trying to draw this timeline
for his means and those that collected the evidence are the Dallas Police Department,
And have fun with that one, ladies and gentlemen. If you really want
to look at what happens to an investigation when it's not being handled with the
utmost care. Take a look at what the Dallas Police Department did. Okay,
And as a matter of as a matter of like regular practice, these
guys would fill out reports like just one guy would wind up filling out a
report who didn't even necessarily, you know, participate in the events he's recounting.
In sworn Apidavid. After Apidavid, you find conflicts, you find problem
and in their in their testimony ever after, these guys would multiply claim to
have been in places where they could not have been. I mean, draw
the timeline for yourself, go right ahead, and you've spoken to them,
so you know the problems that they faced. About about fifty of them,
you know, I think it's pretty bad number, but I mean, you
know, there were a lot more DPD guys there. I'm not saying that
they were all like this, but seemed like a pretty common story where you
didn't have these guys really keeping serious, meticulous track of everything that was going
on, and even with that net that was out there, and of course
this was a huge dragnet, you know, locally to start with, and
there was the involvement of the FBI, really early on there was you know,
obviously the Secret Service wanted to know what happened. Everything else in this
huge dragnet. You still don't come up with all of the things that would
have been required to give him those means to put that gun in his hands,
to give him the skill level, to give him all of this stuff.
I mean, unless I don't know, unless you guys have some other
kind of ideas about it, I'd love to hear them. Well. One
of the things I've always found strange is that in Marion Baker's initial report,
he wrote an initial report the day of the initial report, never mentions that
him and Roy truly encountered anybody at any soda machine on any floor. Now,
you would think that that would be, you know, at least something
he would have even mentioned just in passing that, Oh yeah, I mean,
we knee in the building, the manager went up, we encountered one
of the employees on the floor, and you you know, you want to
be rather detailed. It wasn't until later reports that Baker brought up that he
mentioned the encounter at the coke machine. So I've always found that strange,
whether it's meaning him, whether he forgot, but I found it a little
odd. Anyways, Yeah, because the handwritten report doesn't matter the typewritten report.
Which is really funny because according to some accounts, and again I've got
conflicts on these accounts, but according to some accounts, he's literally typing up
that report in the same room where Oswald is already in custody, okay,
and doesn't make a correlation while he's typing up that report that this is who
we're talking about, really, that this is the guy that he stopped on
that floor. Yeah, I have a theory. Why chuck about that?
Oh, if you want to hear sure, I'd love to hear it.
I think it was about I think it was about ninety seven or ninety eight.
Well, there's a guy named Otis Wilson who worked on the fourth floor
in one of the book offices, who was out front when the motorcade passed
and the shots happened and all that. And in the first maryon Baker account,
he said, like he said, he didn't mention the lunch room,
the second floor lunchroom encounter, but he did mention encountering a fellow wearing a
brown jacket that truly said No, he's okay, he works here on like
the third or fourth floor, I believe is what he said now, and
I think it was in ninety seven or ninety eight there was Otis Wilson came
forward for the first time and recounted what he did after shots were fired.
He said, almost immediately, almost immediately, he turned and went back into
in the school book depository and was going back up to his office and called
his wife to let her know what had just happened. Okay, now he
didn't see Oswald. And then we of course have the account of Victoria Adams
and Sandra Styles coming down from the fourth floor. So what I'm thinking is
Otus Wilson made it up before Sandra and Vicky went down. You know they
were, because they waited like a minute and a half or two minutes before
they went down the stairs. But if Otis is coming up almost instantly,
you know, that might have been who Marion Baker saw, you know,
the tail end of of as him and Trulier going up the stairs. No,
that makes some sense, and you know, and of course convenient,
by the way, because the whole jacket thing was you know, the jacket
itself was later recovered near the tippet scene that you know that they claim he
had, which is kind of funny because according to the story that I understood,
he had to have collected it from the rooming house after he fled,
which you know, hey, I guess, I guess we're gonna have to
cover this an opportunity because you know, remember, this is a guy who
allegedly shoots the president, is confronted by a cop, slips out of the
book Depository building, which is a place he works, and catches a cab,
you know, after he's you know, after he's caught a bus,
mind you so bus, you know, first on foot, then to a
bus, takes a transfer, leaves the bus, gets into a taxi,
takes a taxi, pasted his rooming house, then walks to his rooming house.
This is not an expedient escape plan. Yeah, we're not talking a
couple of houses up. Yeah, so we're talking seven seven blocks up past
his house, not like a couple of houses seven blocks past his rooming house
that he walks back, right, you know, so where's you know,
there's just not enough time in the official Warren Commission timeline for him to do
all the stuff they said he did. There's just it's just not possible.
Yeah, despite your friends at the six floor Museum now trying to show you
a different path that he could have taken and everything else in later years,
it still doesn't work. But anyway, unless the path is through a magical
teleport chamber, well you know, it's gonna be hard to put him in
some of the places as fast as they say he got there. Well,
we do have, you know, the the precursor to email, I guess,
because you can get something from one place to another in twenty four hours
and then into another place, which is a bank, in twenty four hours.
I mean, I can't see why there wouldn't be the precursor to the
teleportation machine, you know, which we still don't have to this day.
But where are the files? Min just wants the files? That's it.
I just picture Oswald's speed walking everywhere exactly. He just never ever walks,
twitching his little hips like the road Runner. Yeah, nice beat, beat,
Ritchie. Can I throw in one last thick on the Walker incident?
Oh? Please do the letter. The letter is basically how they create the
entire incident in the extrapolite and then entered the investigation looking for other things to
connect to it. Now, the problem with the letter is is Oswald,
who supposedly wrote it, and Marina, who supposedly read it. Their fingerprints
aren't on it, but there are unidentified fingerprints on it. Oh boy,
here we go with the unidentified fingerprints again exactly so how does that happen?
The oil from their fingers would have formed prints, and we know that for
sure, and they would have been there because the unidentified ones are now I'm
not saying they're unidentified, like they couldn't figure out if it was them.
It wasn't them, it was someone else, So I'm sure one of them
wasn't. Mac Wallace's also on that letter that A never specifically mentions Walker and
B is not does not have any sort of date on it. No no
date, no mention, and no specific instructions. We really don't know when
and where and what that letter was when it was constructed, or what it
was all about. That letter could have been three years old for all we
know. Yeah, he could have wrote it at any time for any of
the crazy things that and and I don't mean crazy to say he was crazy
with any of the off color things that he might have done. He did
have written that letter for I don't even know if he wrote it because it
was imperfect Russian, which I doubt that he was capable of even writing that.
And I think Chuck has discussed that before. I've talked to you about
that, and I heard Walt Brown talking about that the other day too,
that he actually some notes of Marena got where parts were in English for him
because he had trouble with Russian. Right. Even Ernest Titovitz, who I
had on the show, discussed, you know, writing things both in Russian
and English when he wrote a letter to the two of them after they had
departed from the Soviet Union. So yeah, and besides that, his writing
skills in English, you know. I mean again, if you go back
to the other myths, you know, somebody says that they were helping him
with his with his grammar, that's why they seemed to improve when he was
in New Orleans. But but that wrong. I really tried to promise myself
I would not. I haven't haven't mentioned the name yet, exactly like Valdemart
she who shall not be Hey, guys, I gotta get off here and
uh in a head out of soccer practice here listen. I appreciate that you
dropped in with us even to do this, you know, a halfway through.
Man, really do appreciate it. And everybody do check out the Littleman
podcast. Just search it out. What episode do you want now sixty four
seeing You can find them all at t LG podcast dot com. Yep,
there you go. Recommend, Thank you, appreciate you having me on Buddy
listen. Thank you, Rob, And we will speak again soon. I'll
see hi yah. So yeah, Rob Clark, definitely. I I also
recommend his podcast and uh and and tell you that, you know, I
I even go back and listen to some of the old ones now because,
like I said before, I sort of was turned off by the name.
At first. I thought it was like, you know, maybe something that
might be sponsored by somebody with the initials DVP or something like that. Another
one who shall not be named on this show anyway, that's an inside show,
so it's not like you can't name him. But neither will she anyway,
because I put that open invitation out and it's not coming and I only
have five questions for her. But but any okay, let me stop,
let me stop, okay, exactly only official myths tonight only officials. We'll
try, we'll try to stay on the official myths. Okay, So we
have definitely, in my estimation, disposed of and then even gone back for
remedial course once again on motive. Yeah, you know we have. We
have destroyed means in my estimation. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean with
means, I think part of the means would have been, like we said,
the Walker incident, there's just so many holes in it that between the
lack of witness corroboration, the lack of the bullet being corroborated, the chain
of evidence with the bullet, the you know that they can't even give a
date for the note, so we don't even know that it's directly connected.
You don't have any fingerprints on the notes, so you don't even know if
Oswald wrote it. It's written beyond his skill level, which would infer that
someone else wrote it and planted it there for Ruth Payne to find or bring
somewhere. And then you have, of course the magic bullet itself. Yeah,
I'm just gonna throw it out there guys and say this, you have
a bullet which chain of custody is no good. The nature of the evidence
is no good. What is good about the magic bullet? And what is
the deal? What do you guys think? I mean, Charles, I'll
let you start because I know we all love to go into this, and
I'll just leave my comments in that general direction and let you have at it,
sir. It's so difficult to know where to start with the magic bullet
because there's so many issues with it. It's not even funny, like you
said, chain of command, trajectory, the condition of the physical bullet itself,
whether it even matched the rifle itself, all of it just doesn't make
any sense. So, I mean, the problem is, one of the
biggest problems is with me is that you look at the supposed headshot and it
hits Kennedy in the head and basically explodes and breaks into you know, dozens
of people. This is going all over the car. But then you've got
the magic bullet, which is traveling downward and at a I think it's the
degree is something like seventeen degrees or something like that. The problem is if
it goes straight through and it's traveling downwards, it's not traveling upwards. It
should just keep going downwards and it should go down and almost embed itself into
like the lower seat or the lower car. For whatever reason, it seems
to go come out of Kennedy in a straight line. Now here's the one
thing that's always fucked me. They typically will go off and say that when
the bullet enters John Connolly it was yawing or tumbling or whatever. Here's my
problem with that is that they also contend that the bullet goes straight through Kennedy
and that the bullet, as described by the Parkland doctors, was I think
about five five millimeters, So it's the tiny little hole, which means it
went straight through. It wasn't tumbling, it wasn't yawing, it wasn't doing
anything. And I think when it hits Connolly less than a second later,
probably a fraction of a second later, it enters him in such a way
where it's straight up and down, almost like the shadow of a bullet.
So in that time it turned that much. It just it didn't have time
to make that kind of turn, that kind of flip where it's going straight
and all of a sudden it turns upwards, So it's straight up and down
as opposed to a small hole and the jacket in Connolly's or the pole in
Connollie's jacket and his shirt. They line up with it being the straight almost
like a straight up and down bullet. So how did it do that in
such a time when the hole is is so small around like it was a
straight through bullet. It just doesn't seem to make sense, and it just
doesn't seem to have the time to adjust to be like that. That's problem
number one. I was gonna say, I'd leave the uh, I'll leave
the more specific ballistic matters to you guys, because as I I don't know
if you've ever run into Ed Cage what a gym he is, but he's
always trying to discuss specific ballistics matters with I'm sure a book he has or
you know, he maybe studied a certain type of ballistics and he's really good
at it. And I'm not a ballistics expert, So I leave that to
ballistics experts. But I but what I have been able to pull from the
files regarding the single bullet, I'll try to stick to. And that's,
you know, like the chain of custody was total. Out of the six
people that supposedly handled the bullet, only one could say it was the same
bullet that went into evidence, right, So right there. I mean,
if, as Chuck said earlier, there was no trial, So a lot
of people who support the Commission might want to not be quite so sure of
themselves because under the law, the presumption of innocence stands. If we were
to go, you can't get a conviction under normal circumstances on Oswald. That's
why the Commission had to lower the standards. Well right, sorry, go
ahead, be right. Who is the director of security at Parkland Hospital said
he received the bullet. He described it as appointed nose hunting round when he
got it, and of course you know the carcando was the rounded nose and
it's not a hunting round. Yeah, jacketed. And that's just one of
there several of them. The discrepancy about which stretcher was found on whether it
was even found on the proper stretcher, Yeah, no, there's two.
In the executive sessions, McCloy and rank and talk about how they have two
stories. Yeah, they have it on Kennedy's stretcher and they have it on
connolly stretcher. But then I think, Chuck, we were talking about it
and you were discussing how it might have been another person stretcher as well.
Yeah, unfortunately the person that actually picks it up. Okay, that guy
describes a stretcher that more accurately could be associated with Ronald Fuller, who was
a child who was injured and happened to be in the emergency room that day,
which has absolutely nothing to do with this case. It wasn't like they
used the Fuller stretcher for Connolly or something like that. No, that's an
impossibility. You know, again, the stories don't match up. The chain
of custody is no good. The bullet's no good. Now to say something
about the ballistics and the tumbling and the yawing, there's two kind of schools
of thought here, which I think seem relatively accurate. First of all,
a bullet can do that tumbling to get that oblong injury on Connolly. What's
bizarre about this is the trajectory in order to line it up, How you're
going to put that into Kennedy and then out of it. If it was
two separate shots, it makes more sense. If there's another wound on Kennedy
a little further down the road, it makes more sense. Can it be
theoretically lined up possibly, but then you don't have the bullet like it is.
I mean, as you stated before the headshot, you wind up with
fragmentary evidence which remains in the car. They wind up taking it as a
carpet later. I think there's two large sections of bullet fragment, and then
there's a smaller third one which reappears and disappears in the official evidence. By
the way, gotta love that, But no, I'm not kidding you.
If you look at the FBI photographs of the bullet fragments, sometimes you have
this little additional piece and sometimes you don't. It's which is very strange.
But either way, let's just, you know, go with the idea that
you know, you can't trace the rounds back to him, okay, because
it's even if you can assume that the weapon is the weapon, which that's
also a problem. But even if you assume that the weapon is the weapon,
it's difficult to put it in his hands. You can't get it into
the book depository because Doherty doesn't see it come in and that was his job.
So unless he was asleep at the switch, Oswald was able to sit
in a weapon, you know, without firing it, which from my understanding,
if you have to be assemble the Carkano in any way, shape or
form, you're gonna have to site it back in because the thing is not
going to be accurate to be fired through the iron sights like they used to
love to tell us about, you know, despite the fact that the scope
would also be a hindrance. I mean, you know, well, and
you know, we also might want to add in the fact that there were
four other people in the building that never get mentioned. There were you know,
Doerty being one of them, that might have been in the fit the
sixth floor, depending on which version of his testimony you look at. And
then he becomes somebody with an emotional problem that gets turned over to his parents
and allowed to leave, even though he was trained in the army. This
is true. And there's also the strange case of Charles Gibbons, who you
know, returns up there. They pressure him, I mean, read his
testimony sometime and imagine what goes on, Yeah, or Fraser when they tried
to get Fraser to sign the fidavit saying that he was related to Oswald,
right, you know, I mean all sorts of pressuring of witnesses, which
is kind of weird if you're doing an investigation, you know well, and
we know how much of an investigation they really wanted. Another document that will
have to we can discuss on linked one night. But I have a document
from the Weisberg archives and it's a private conversation with Hoover telling them that they
don't want a commission. Johnson and Hoover just wanted the FBI, you know,
investigation with all three days and in a week to have everything done.
I've actually got a recording of that conversation between Johnson and Hoover where they're actually
discussing that how and you can clearly hear Johnson on the tape saying, I
just saying to Hoover, I just want you guys, get away with you
guys just filing your report that he didn't want to commission. I've actually got
that phone conversation on a CD. I have just one other thing that I
wanted to bring up about the sixth floor and so on, and Oswald bringing
the rifle in is He also got the story of Bonnie Ray Williams, who
was sitting up on the sixth floor his lunch from about against him but just
before twelve o'clock, and he said that he came back down, you know,
sometime around twelve fifteen or twelve twenty. Well, this would have had
to have been at the time where Oswald was constructing the quote unquote sniper's nest.
But Bonnie Ray Williams didn't hear anything. He was on the sixth floor.
And yet you've got someone supposedly moved pulling boxes into the big formation there
and you don't hear anything, and you're sitting on the same floor. One
of the key points of accuracy. Actually in the movie JFK is Bondie Ray
Williams is on the sixth floor eating his lunch and he sees nobody. Yeah,
yeah, so is Oswald lying in wait in the sniper's nest the entire
time? Well if that's the case, when did he build it that which
they were moving? Yea. Not only that, he's gotta put together the
rifle apparently using a dime. Oh well, that's the other problem is that,
you know, and and Ian griggs demonstration on this is is most hilarious
because, uh, it just illustrates the point, Uh, he has no
tools on him in order to put this thing together. If you're going to
assemble it with a dime, okay, fine, but you ought to see
how how much effort that actually takes, even if it's partially disascepled. You
got a problem, you know, And and uh, it's just on and
on and on and on, and what's wrong. Then there's a brown wrapping
paper that he supposedly wrapped the rifle in to bring it to work, and
that there is no photo of, there's an outline floor, there's no one,
no one ever seeing him take the wrapping paper basically of two pieces six
feet long. And when did he take it back to Ruth pays with him?
And how did he get it back? There was nobody seeing him carry
it. And I think that that leads us almost perfectly whenever you're ready to
chuck for opportunity, well and and and that's exactly it the motive and means
okay, so what is left, Well, let's go with opportunity. And
even though if we were in a court of law and we had completely you
know, deconstructed this right, if that had happened, we would already not
have a case. But let's continue forward. Anyway, opportunity carline, do
you want to open that one. Sure, So can you hear me?
Okay, because you kind of blinked out there for a second. So I'm
sorry if I talked over you at all. No, it's okay, I've
got you fine. I think Charles is still with us, Okay, Yeah,
as we I? Yeah, I as you. I and Charles prior
to discussed, you know, Zach Trish, everybody pretty much the timeline does
not work. And where it really falls apart in my opinion, and I
was happy to be able to find these things and share them with my fellow
researchers and friends, is that Oswald, at maximum, based on the timeline
the commission and the evidence they gave us on him, has seventy two hours
or less. And in my I would contend he has less than forty eight
hours to get everything done. Now. That is because it was not released
to the newspapers until November nineteenth in the morning edition five am. Is what
I've been told was when that came out that Kennedy was going to pass the
school book depository, the full route was not available until then. So let's
say that Oswald was standing on the corner of the street at five oh one
and give him all the time we possibly can. He grabs it as it
flies out of someone's hand, and he sees that Kennedy's going to be there.
So now the clock starts. First thing you have to do is you
have to remove three nights of sleep that you know that can vary. Let's
say six to eight hours. He was known to go to bed early,
and he did on the night before the assassination. That's true. So let
us say that you know, we'll do We'll be nice. We'll say six
times three is twelve. Now we're down to sixty hours. Now three days
of work. Now there you can't cut corners. It's about eight hours a
day, so eight a eight twenty four. Now we are below forty hours.
Well, six times three if you give him three nineteen is eighteen,
so so sixty fifty, so forty two hours left. And that's now at
in eating and he associating, he did all of the activities that the commission
says he did. And in all of this there's no practice he spends.
He chooses to spend these most critical points at the pain's house, eating dinner
and going to bed early at nine o'clock. Now, as Charles just said,
when does he create the bag, When does he take apart the rifle?
How does no one see him? You know? Does he do it
early in the morning, Well, there's other people up and around two.
He doesn't live there alone in the pain home. So there's all these opportunities
once again that he's going to be discovered. So he makes not a single
mistake from there all the way to the power until he shoots. Then he
starts making mistakes again. And if you look at his record, Oswald makes
mistakes. He's not known to do a lot of perfectly exemplary plots. No,
it seems that every time he does something, it does seem to backfire
on him in one way or another, sometimes literally. Indeed, you know
again a guy who shot himself in the leg. Okay, yeah, this
is the man who they are saying can by himself in forty eight hours or
less, pull everything off without a mistake. And that, to me is
the most improbable thing of all. Is the commission painted themselves into an evidentiary
corner, right, so they surrender the point of actually, you know,
creating a a a plausible motive, and they have absolutely no opportunity in your
estimation, Charles what do you think about Oswald's opportunity as per the official story.
Further, what Carmine was saying, so that from the time he gets
to the book depository in the morning, which I think with around eight am
or just after eight am, he's got to take this run. He's got
to find a place where he's going to be storing his rifle for a proximately
three three and a half hours, and he's got to be able to put
it somewhere where nobody else is going to find it, but yet it's going
to be readily available to him around eleven thirty noon, where he's going to
have to go upstairs and you know, construct the sniper's nest. Now,
everybody that was on the sixth floor I think went down for lunch at some
sometime in round ten or five to twelve. So once they go down for
lunch, that gives Oswald thirty five minutes to go up construct the sniper's nest,
which I think he used something like eighteen boxes right to something like eighteen
boxes. And the fact that he's got to then assemble the rifle in the
boxes and all that. We seem to have lost Charles by the way,
but I'll just continue on with his point. You know, all of this
going on, and yet he is seen by no one with the rifle.
He's seen by no one doing this action of creating the sniper's nest. I
used to love Bill Hicks commentary on this. Exactly how great that the six
floor museum was. This sixth floor museum is so wonderful because it's entirely historically
accurate. If you look in the window at the sixth floor, Oswald isn't
in it. Exactly, It's beautiful. And yes, but go ahead,
yeah, yeah, to go off of, to go off of what Charles
was stating. Yeah, I mean, it's then he somehow has to find
the holes in the fractional you know, moments when people are moving around him
at all times, to go downstairs or come back up and get other people
to go back downstairs and watch the motorcade. And it's late. So even
if he had planned it down to the minute, the plans were foiled because
they were ten minutes late. Exactly. Oh, I know that that's a
huge part of the equation here, is that the motorcade comes late. So
even whatever he had planned out, you know, allegedly, yeah, still
doesn't come together properly because the motorcade is late. Plus you have all of
these sort of variables happening here. What if somebody doesn't want to go down
for lunch, What if somebody didn't have lunch that day? Yeah, you
know what if you guys end up talking for what? He's got all sorts
of variables to have to deal with there that he just gets so lucky?
Exactly how much luck and how many coincidences are necessary to make this come off?
And unfortunately it seems like far too many exactly? And it's okay,
Charles, we know we can. We can continued on with your point,
sir, not today, not today, But it's okay. We we filled
in the gap. You've caught some of the same disease that I get every
now and then. So it's okay, it'll it'll pass, sir. But
so opportunity here is really pretty well destroyed in my estimation again, Yeah,
okay, And let me say this, there is absolutely no part of the
official evidence that doesn't have problems, contradictions, implausible scenarios. I mean,
it's endless. The amounts of difficulty with trying to put together a coherent case
against the loan assassin in my estimation. No, go ahead, Charles pard,
I find him. So let's say Oswald goes through the shooting, he
shoots Kennedy. So at that point he doesn't know whether anybody looked up and
saw him, you know, shooting. Anyone down in the crowd could have
looked up, saw him in the window, firing a right boot or anything
like that. But yet he goes down stairs and walks out the front door,
not knowing if anybody has viewed him. For all he knows, he
goes down walks on the front door. Four or five people are saying,
hey, there's the guy that was up there, there's the guy we saw.
But he waltzes leisurely out the front door, right, and again,
what do you have when you look to the people that might have saw him,
could have seen him, et cetera, et cetera. He got one
newsman that claims he saw a barrel sticking out of the window. You have
amos Ewens who gives a completely different account of what he saw. I think
he was confused about who was on the fifth floor and who was on the
sixth floor. But he was a kid. Okay. You have then Howard
Brennan, the star witness for the War Commission, the man who changed his
story three times? Oh oh did he and never actually positivetively identified Oswald for
almost a month, even though he was showing him in a lineup that night.
Yeah, and well, and they say that he positively identified him.
I'm sorry. When you have multiple versions of testimony, it's questionable. I'm
not I'm not saying we can rule out what he said, but if we're
going you know, there has to be an equal amount of consistency in how
we treat all the witnesses. So if we're going to rule out, you
know, conspiracy pro conspiracy witnesses who change their testimony, then he gets ruled
out too. Yes. Plus plus he's got a problem with his eyesight.
Yeah, that's a reality. Oh some said that didn't happen until afterwards.
But I know that's a topic of debate. Sure, okay, so we'll
put that aside. Fine, But here's the fun part for me, which
is a description goes out over the Dallas police radio of an individual that supposedly
did the shooting. I have never found. You know, there is the
assumption that Brennan is the source for a description, which includes height, approximate
weight, race, You know, a lot of detail to be seeing standing
on the ground looking six floors up when you know, ostensibly you're being distracted
by the commotion in front of you and the fact that you were there to
watch the motorcade with the president in it, to begin with a whole lot
of detail that this guy snapshot at for everybody, if he is in fact
the source for that description. I've actually gone down and stood where Howard Brennan
was standing, and I looked at the sixth floor when I was in Dallas.
Now you've been probably get some general features of the guy. I don't
see how a guy standing there is going to get that detailed of a description
of a guy standing that far down. Just to me, well, he
was what was he under two hundred feet? I know two hundred feet is
when things get really blurry. I've looked at just vision charts because I was
trying to figure out, you know, exactly how consistent some of the witness
sestem and it could have been depending at the distance and Brennan's right on the
cusp. If I think it was like one hundred and twenty maybe one hundred
and forty feet, So it's yeah, it's you can make out colors,
you can make out, you know, more vague descriptive things, but to
really get features and stuff, it's it's difficult over one hundred feet. It's
almost impossible to two hundred feet unless you have really good vision. Yeah,
through windows in a commercial slash industrial area there you go too. If the
window's on the cracked so that you can only see the arms and the gun,
then that's really and the windows there, you know, even now in
the museum format are still not you know crystal. Yeah, yeah, at
the time where shots are going off and there's a lot of commotion all around
you, right right exactly, I mean, where is it that this guy
got to see? And meanwhile, he's really the only one that that tags
Oswald with the shooting, you know, that's our witness. That's that's what
this whole thing really hinges upon. Without him, without even that singular witness,
they've got nobody. And of course there are more witnesses that saw other
descriptions shooting. This is the other problem is that he's actually outnumbered by individuals
who have different accounts. I mean, look, I can dismiss amos Ewans
because he understood there was a commotion in that general area. He looked up
and prominently, sitting on a windowsill were two guys, you know. And
hey, I can't account for what somebody's level of observation is, necessarily,
but it seems to me as though he sort of created a composite in his
mind of what was going on and assumed that the individuals that caught his site
first were involved. So this is why you actually have a description of what
he said was a colored man shooting, you know. And meanwhile, and
don't give me the crap about how I said color. Just now, this
is a black kid using the terms of the time in nineteen sixty three,
he was describing someone who was not white as colored exactly. And this,
you know, when we're talking about historical research, if people can't make that
distinci, they might want to tune into something else. So just but that
note aside, you know, what do we have left here? I mean,
is there any other sort of way that you know, opportunity can rise?
Now, when it comes to the Tippet shooting, opportunity again is questionable.
However, I will say this, this scenario is a lot more likely.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't think you know, as I'm
sure from our repeated discussions on and off the air, you know that I
do not support the official story. I think the Tippitt shooting at least as
possible as where the Kennedy shooting is highly improbable because of all the factors that
weigh against it. With motive means an opportunity with motive means an opportunity.
With Tippet, he had the gun, so he had the means. I
mean, it wasn't a great gun. It was modified improperly, or it
was modified in an amateurish way, so still difficult to put in his hands.
And just for the clarification of the listeners, you're talking about a gun
which was exported from the US and actually the barrel remachined so that it could
handle I think British ammunition and then reintroduced, re imported back into the US
and supposedly you know, usable with again the US standard on the ammo.
All right, And I mean that's the basics of this, the lineage of
this weapon. And of course again difficult to put it in his hands.
But let's just assume we can put it in his hands. Yeah, uh,
you know, and at least at least they have a motive escape,
right, Well, it's something Here's Here's always been my problem with that handgun.
Also, not only you know, the you know, the chain of
events that puts it in his hand. Forget that for just a minute,
but you know, for somebody that's thinking about shooting the president with a rifle
from a distance, wouldn't it be kind of helpful to have a handgun with
you so that in case somebody did attempt to capture you, you could do
what they alleged him to have done in the case of JD. Tibbett.
Yeah, you know, good to have an extra weapon. I would imagine
you beat yourself out with a rifle in one bullet. Yeah, that's not
going to happen, exactly, the one round that was still left in the
in the weapon. This is not a plausible way by which somebody's gonna achieve
escape if they are now caught up in a you know, in the situation
that could have very easily ensued, because look, there's no guarantee that there
couldn't have been a whole lot more witnesses, not only outside of the depository
looking up, but I mean, how does he even know that, you
know, no worker is going to come back up for whatever reason. You
know, despite Gibbons going back up for his cigarettes he says and and stuff
like that at certain points. Well, well, well, yeah, you
know, how does he know that that's not going to happen. I would
if I was doing this and somehow decided it's you know, for less than
forty eight hours to do so, and had been you know, I guess
psychic and you know, inclined with psychic skills to know to make the bag
way in advance, so that you know, I would be ready and all
that I might have had the foresight to carry the sidearm with me, you
know, in case of those eventualities. But again, in the midst of
all this meticulous planning, that much sort of elluded him. And I know
I'm making but right, he's a flawless for the rest of it. I
mean, I don't know what else you want to say about the Tippet killing.
But even though it is also suspect and a mess, and you have
you know, improper witnesses and improper ballistics and times and the timeline, I
mean, well, where where do you want to stress on that one,
Charles hum a game with the magic bullet. There's a lot of issues there.
One of the biggest problems I've always had was that the slugs of the
that were apparently dumped out. I don't know why you stopped to dump the
slugs out, but uh, the they don't match the bullets because I believe
them both taken out of the tip it were I think with three Remingtons and
one win Chess, and the shelves were two Remington's and two Winchesters. So
it's strange how the bullets and the shelves in this case they don't match,
but they kind of skirt by that issue and don't make a big deal on
it. Yeah, he's ejecting the rounds as he's as he's walking away and
dropping him on the ground. Again not exactly very meticulous in his flight,
you know. And then uh the timing of uh, you know, the
paramedics coming to uh to uh pick tip it up. Who called the paramedics?
You know? Of course the cab driver scoggins. He runs up and
uses tip tip the squad car radio to radio into the police. But we
never do we even really know who actually called the paramedics. Yeah, no,
that's that's an issue that, uh, that should be brought up more
often that how quickly it took on Rob's request, I checked out with a
paramedic friend of mine and usually takes at least a few minutes to respond.
So unless these people are down the street waiting, it's going to take more
time. Then they're going to not just grab a body and throw it in.
They're going to check to see if he's alive. If he's dead,
they might wait for the police before they just take the body and mess up
the crime scene. Right, and Kim was an EMT also, Okay,
guess what, Yeah, they would have had to wait it for other police
to show up in order to secure evidence and things like that, especially you
know, given that, I mean, if they were trying to you know,
perform life saving you know actions, they might have taken certain actions.
But from my understanding, according to the autopsy, Tippet was pretty much dead
instantly. Yeah, you know, so when they got there, they knew
they had a cold body. You know, that was it so easy?
There's no reason to Russia. Russia won, right, So, I mean,
and that standard has been in place for a long time. I mean
people could say that, you know, while historically speaking, maybe they didn't
have the same standards. And you know what, I'll give them a point
there because considering the idiot they had pumping on Oswald's you know, gut shot,
trying to do CPR on him at city Hall on Sunday, you know,
maybe it does speak in some way to the quality of the medical professionals
and the individuals involved in first need in the Dallas area. I do I
do want to speak a little bit in defense and I know some people want
to be happy with this, but I would like to speak a little bit
in defense of the officials of Dallas. They were under a hell of a
gun. I mean, everything was being loaded onto them. The FBI was
going to blame them for everything no matter what they did, and the media
was on them. So you're right, there's massive incompetence. I would never
disagree with that. That's always been my contention. There's massive incompetence. But
I placed that incompetence on the leaders rather than the entire force. I guarantee
a majority of them did a decent job. Unfortunately we got the Keystone cops.
Well, yeah, a lot of them did try and that was one
of the things that I got to say in fairness, you know, after
speaking to a lot of these guys, you know, guys like guys like
Maddox and and guys even like and I know nobody likes it when I say
this, but even like a guy like Lavelle. These guys were trying to
do their job. They really were. They were misled by their you know,
captains and et cetera, et cetera. This is true, and you
know, everything just seemed to go against them. A lot of them ever
after felt like, you know, it was just sort of a black cloud
came in and it didn't leave until after, you know, after Ruby was
already off the scene there. But uh, you know, and we didn't
even get into that because of course, the commission then contends after all this
even though they have no motive, no means, no opportunity for Oswald to
have pulled off well not either homicide. In the case of Tippet, there
are possibilities, but in the case of Kennedy, I just it's a completely
untenable case in my estimation. Okay, now, after that, and they
have the world famous, most highly you know, recognizable known individual on the
planet at that point to have ever been arrested on live television. They let
this guy get shot in their custody, and that is supposed to also be
the act of a loan nut, a random nightclub owner who happened to just
walk down a ramp with nobody seeing them, just walked into position, then
walks in front of them and shoot them while surrounded by dozens of armed police
US. Oh yeah, which we know. We talked about this briefly.
I think on one of the older episodes. Is not the case because Ptdan
was influenced by one of them, the Commission staff, to not say that
he saw Ruby when he originally said he saw Ruby pass him, and Dean
was shady. Dean was just shady anyway. Yeah, I mean, let's
I mean, yeah, Dean could have created the story. That's possible.
But to me, just with the connections, you know, like Charles was
saying, they always presented Ruby as a just some nightclub owner. Well,
no, that's not who he is. They were wrong. They didn't have
all the files because Hoover and McCone both signed those affidavits saying that they didn't
know anything, which wasn't true. You know that there were hundreds of thousands
of files that were pertinent, and you know, some of them were Ruby.
That Ruby was an FBI informant in fifty nine. He was an unsuccessful
one. He didn't give them any information, according to the files, but
he was made you know, he was offered as a potential informant and they
tried to develop him. But that would Louver lied about all that. He
said there were no connections. Yeah, and if you mean to tell me,
and if you mean to tell me that because of Ruby's interaction in Cuba
and the fact that he was just merely present and that he had connections to
organized crime, figures that a guy like Dulles was not aware of any of
that exactly, especially when they're working with them on the Castro plots during the
same period, right. You know, So what are we talking about here?
More denial, more cover up and again motive means an opportunity are really
strange. This time you can put the means in the gun in the shooter's
hands. Yeah, he had it, that's for sure. Yeah, and
he knew how to use it. He actually, I guarantee that Jack had
fired a firearm before. Yeah, I'm willing to bet good money that Jack
Ruby had actually fired a weapon in his life. Yeah, that was that
was not his first time shooting, right, right, And his interaction with
the police is well documented and everything else. So gee, you have means
you have opportunity here in the Ruby k The motive though very questionable. I
had a motive, all right, but I don't think it's the motive we've
been told by them exactly. It doesn't. It doesn't appear, based in
my opinion, to a substantial amount of the evidence, does not support that
motive. You know, First they tried to divorce them from the mob,
which isn't the case. Then they try to divorce them from all the hundreds
of connections he had to the Dallas police, you know. And as you've
said before, that's a low ball statement. Maybe that was only the people
who was really close with but you know, I mean, we have police
officers saying it isn't uncommon to get a call from Jack Ruby, you know,
speaking of lowball statements. Just really quickly, Charles earlier said, you
know, in the custody, in the presence of dozens of Dallas police officers,
do you know what number I came to a long time ago on the
number of officers present. Seventy seventy. Wow, seventy, So that that's
my count. Let's just say I'm wrong by a little bit. That means
that let's just give me a margin of error of ten. We're talking five
dozen. Yeah, okay, somebody in there besides Dean, if Dean did
see him, likely knew him. Somebody. Yeah, you can't tell me
that out of sixty people, nobody went, oh, that's jack and funny.
In a situation like that, you would think if that were to really
happen, you would think in a situation like that, people in the police
department would be losing their jobs left and right. I never heard of one
person that did. No one was punished. I went to sire service punished.
Yet you bet a prisoner surrounded by armed police murdered right in front of
you, and nobody loses their job and there's no internal investigation, no,
nothing, right. And I will say, okay, and I'm being corrected
by a Skype message. All right, fine, I'll say that Oswall was
probably the highest profile prisoner in American history. Okay at that point in time.
That's what I would say. Maybe you were I did say world history,
and that's that's that's probably not true. You're right, you're right,
But leady, who they wound up hanging or anything else? Okay? Fine?
But in American history, you know what else do we have as far
as a prisoner. John Wilkes Booth is not a prisoner because he wasn't taken
into custodya they just shot him, right, so he was just killed,
you know, straight up, Uh, never taken into custody. So I
would say that, you know, he was he was definitely the most the
most infamous prisoner in American history, in US history. Okay, that's fine
by me. Do you guys, I had a couple of people trying to
call in. Do you guys want to take a couple of calls or do
you got closure thoughts here? Because I know we're getting down to like the
last fifteen minutes, believe it or not. How do you think if you
called? I'm good with that. Yeah, all right. If you want
to join in on the conversation, it's seven one eight seven one seven eight
two nine six. If you're on the Skype list, you can join in
also, I will add you right in. You can ask any questions you
want about what we've been discussing. That's all fine and dandy, but no
block numbers. No block numbers. Yes, I always do forget to say
that, thank you, Carmine, block numbers. I cannot accept your call
while I'm on the air, so they'll take a humanute. Feel free to
try to seek us out and scream at us somewhere. Yes, that's fine.
You know it's a Facebook like everybody else. Harmon and I are not
hard to find one. No, that's not hard to find neither am I.
Uh so you know you can direct your hate mail there if you like
it not. Also, I do have an email address Chuck C h U
c K seven to two at leos, which is spelled l y C O
S dot com. Maybe there'll be a hate mail show if you have a
phone call. Gentlemen, So let's see now, caller, you're on the
air. Hey, it's not David bon Payne, but I'll not be able
to fill the shoes for him. It sounds familiar, and Steve, I'll
tell you you're not gonna get fair air in the last few minutes here.
But I absolutely invite you to have a debate show with any of the participants
here that are willing to uh to discuss it with you, and you can
bring a partner, sir. Okay, that sounds good. Tut in near
future at your convenience. You let me know and I will fit into one
of the live broadcast nights and we'll do it. Okay. Well, I
just want to ask one question. Sure, Actually, how come you guys
ignoring the palm prant on the rifle and the palm prant on the bag?
Well? Pretty huh? I don't. I don't disagree with the palm print
on the rifle with the bag. My I think that there's questionable links as
far as the bag because it wasn't in the primary evidence right off. But
I'm not saying that it's not that there isn't. There isn't a palmprint on
the bag. He could have he could have touched the bag, he could
have touched the paper that made the bag. Now, the rifle, I
have never contented that it could have been his. That could be Oswald's rifle,
and based on what the evidence points towards, there's a good chance it
was his rifle. But once again, that doesn't mean he fired it,
and that doesn't mean he had the skill to fire it, right. That's
what I've given to say too, which is why I've ignored this and I've
seen people missing regarding it, you know, trying to make a lot of
statements. The chain of custody on the lift and all that is also questionable,
but not as questionable as some people like to make it seem. The
possibility that his pompprint wound up on that rifle, that's there, but again,
it doesn't put it in his hands at the time. You know,
I point out the problems with him taking possession of it, with him receiving
the delivery of it, because I think that's fair to bring up the idea
that that would point to him actually having possession of it. Well, you
know, it could just as easily have been achieved by somebody handing him that
rifle to examine. You know, it doesn't state exactly how that print got
there either. You know, there's more to it than just stating that there
is a print or there isn't a print in my estimation, which is why
I didn't bother to bring it up. Well, if I can also add
to that, and I'd say this conversely for the other side, which I
don't agree with. But theoretically Oswald also could have been a spotter. Oswald
could have handled the rifle. He might have been told to bring his rifle
and he gave it to the person who fired. I just think it's they
weren't able to prove that he fired it, and so there could be innocence
and guilt in there to assess to him. I just don't think it's the
innocence or guilt of the shots. And I was gonna say all the Karman
that could actually also account for Jack Doherty not being able to bring the rifle
into the building. Yeah. Well, of course we'll get into this little
later. But after I got several points, I blow that out of water
that I look forward to that. You know, Steve, I really came
into studying this case on your side. That's how I came into it.
I wanted to disprove all of the wackiness, and you know what I did
in a lot of cases. But then there was just two much, you
know, in my estimation, you know, but I still have an open
sort of mind regarding this. Actually, you know, I believe that it
would be very hard to convince me at this point, but Honestly, if
somebody could show me a logical sort of trail where we can go from A
to B to C that doesn't have, you know, that isn't full of
tons of holes, I'd be happy to Uh oh, okay, Charles dropped.
I thought Steve might have dropped. I'd be more than happy to switch
sides and go for what I consider to be the easy answer here, because
I'm left with not knowing who's actually guilty, and I don't state that Oswald
is innocent. By the way, I'm not one of those guys that Oswald
is innocent and that you know that there's absolutely no way that he was guilty
of anything exactly. You can't with what you know his actions. His own
actions imply that at the very least he was used, right right, That's
that's how I see it. But yeah, yeah, I understand, I
understand. You know, I'm saying, you guys are die hard type of
people, you know, Yeah, yeah, you know, we can certainly,
we can certainly go through all that you know at a later time and
uh go through it. I'd be interested to know what you think about Doherty
though. That's when I always like to throw to those who sport the Commission.
Yeah, yeah, Jack Dorty Seat Gordy was in the Army Air Force
during World War Two and he was prospectly forty years old in sixty three.
You know, he was questioned by the w c H. Well you know,
he's certainly in the building and uh and all that, but they did
thing a print him. They looked around for prints on the boxes and the
snipers nest it wasn't there, and uh, you know, no indication at
all all. Well he was being up there. You know. I think
what Carmines alluding to Steve is that Doherty actually stated, and I believe,
in a sworn statement, said that he saw Osbald enter the book depository and
Oswald was not carrying anything. Well, yeah, that's what Chuck said earlier.
But also he also in a statement he said that he was working on
the fifth or sixth floor, and then later on they said that he had
emotional problems and other things. But they really never did question him and he
wasn't called to testify. Yeah he was, but in it, Oh no,
Doherty was. Yeah, I'm sorry. So Doherty did testimony, but
he they never specifically asked him about where. They never got to where his
exact location was, whether it was on the upper floors or on the lower
floors. Well, yeah, there's he gave a pretty bad testimony where he
was. But uh, you know he said he glanced out of the corner
of the eye and when Oswood came in, I don't me and Oswald had
to walk in the building with the package. He came back to the loading
dot. He could have very well stuffed it out there and retrieve it later
or whatever. You know. But but you know, all this we can
go into a further detail, you know, Yeah, no, I we're
just glad to hear you. You know, we're more than happy to ye
to discuss the other side too, because there are it's not going to be,
in my opinion, one side or the other, it's going to be
both sides, and the most reasonable things about both sides likely working as one,
you know, conglomerated timeline right right now. I gotta I got no
problem with that, you know, just there's there's other things there that that
need to be discussed. You know, I mean, I'm saying pomp plain
on the bag and all that stuffs. See three excuseent He three ninety nine
was proven to be fired. Eve, all rifles and then you got you
got jarm and the rest of them flow down below. Hearing them, hearing
the shells at the floor and everything. You know, somebody was shooting up
there. Well, no, I agree with that. I'm not just doing
that either. You don't know. I'm just saying I'm not convict to it
was right now, I'll be willing to state that I'm certain that there's a
shooter on a higher floor of the book depository building. I'm not sure if
it's you know which floor it is precisely, but I'm sure that based on
a conglomeration of the evidence, you've got a shoot her from that elevation.
You've got to shoot her from that direction. So that's what I figure now.
As to what he actually struck. As to who that shooter was,
these things are questionable in my mind. That's that's where I'm at with it.
And was he the only shooter? Exactly? What do you think of
because I know you've heard of some of it, Steve, what do you
think of some of Sheriff Eister's trajectory analysis. I don't believe it. You
know, she's trying to do She's trying to do the shops from the South.
No, and then she's trying to interpret that over the Z film and
everything like that. I Mean, I just can't see how you interpret blood
splatter over a film versus the actual crime scene, you know. To me,
that's that's that's her op conjecture. Well, in part, in part,
she's utilizing the photographs that were taken by the Secret Service and the FBI
of the limo afterwards, which is you know, is separate from the Z
film. The Z film is you know, a raw shock test to a
lot of us. I mean, at this point you can you can sort
of interpret and see things in there if you want to, you know,
regarding specifics and and that's kind of the con illusion I had to come to
after exhaustively going through that thing. I Mean, I don't even want to
tell you the amount of time, effort, and money invested into that film
I have, you know, But yeah, I think, yeah, we
were saying, Charles, I was just gonna say that she's a trained forensic
effort. Yeah, and the stuff that she the techniques that she uses are
very common actually in that field. Oh yeah, no, they're they're they're
all approved and they're used by. I've checked out the forensic side of it.
I agree. Uh, you know, none of us are always going
to agree with everything anyone says, but I agree with a lot of what
she says. As far as the ballistics and the trajectory analysis, I think
it at least is open to possibility. You know, it might not be
definitive, but I think that it at least allows us to consider another feasible
possibility that could have occurred. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, I understand that.
And you know worth bullets. You know, well, that's well,
you know, then we get into the fragment that's yet recover any of the
bullets. Now, now we get into a whole other area and what happened
to the internal parts that the FBI seized the car. Yeah, there's all
kinds of stuff going on here. I mean, was there actually strike on
the turf on the other side of you know, of ELM was there?
I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. What exactly hit James Take in
the face. I didn't even realize that, Yeah, this might be a
sing you might need a single bullet episode. You just have both sides talk
about. There is a whole litany of problems relating to what happened to the
rest of the bullets, and that's one of those things that we're just not
gonna have time for. I've only got a few minutes left. I did
add Dylan into the discussion too, Dylan, did you have a question?
No, I really just called him to listen because the player kept going in
and out. Okay, sorry about that, but okay, I love thought
off here, but appreciate appreciate it. Yeah, I still love you guys.
Okay, yeah, absolutely, and Steve again, don't get me wrong
now, No, no, I love constructive criticism. It's so rare these
days. But if your answers are all correct and it turns out that you
were correct, I'll be the first one to say, you know, thank
you, because this is what I would like to see is a simple,
concise answer to what happened. You know. Finally, you say, it's
nice to be able to talk to someone that has different opinions and have it
be a civil discussion and not throwing back here. Yeah, absolutely, So
listen, guys, I'm gonna close things out here. Thanks Steve for calling,
and uh, get quick. Absolutely go ahead. Carmine. Okay,
if you're listening. Then you enjoyed the shows, Please try to stop by
t pok dot com t paak dot com. There'll be links to a lot
of the people that you heard here tonight and other great researchers. There's a
recommended section there. Please stop by Facebook dot com, slash nep MG and
capital n e A P Capital MG, and you can find myself, Charles,
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which would you just type am in you'll find them there too, and Chuck
o'celly's Facebook page if you'd like, step by my writer Facebook page or Chuck's
public persona firstbook page, and please, I hope you'll listen and again,
really and I want to thank everybody who decided to give us the time tonight.
No matter what method you used or if you called us further on down
the stream, the o'celly effect is what you were listening to. And this
was the JFK Assassination Myths Episode number four, discussing what we believe to be
the official story and the mythology attached to it. Of course, We're going
to hear from the other side on this one, and I look forward to
a possible debate over these issues. So again, thanks for tuning in,
and if you want to catch any other archives, they are still available at
ucy dot tv, slash te and of course you can find me on oh
YouTube The Blind JFK Researcher all that. Charles Cliff, I really want to
thank you for stopping in, serve. Is there anywhere you want to direct
people to? Yeah, I've got on Facebook, I've got a discussion group.
It's the JFK Assassination Research Bureau, and also all the other sites that
Carmin mentioned, Mineapolis Media Group, Lone Glendon Podcast. Highly recommend both of
those as well. Right, and I do again thank all of you guys,
Rob Clark, Charles Cliff, Carmine Sabastano, Steve Rowe for stopping in
really quick. Just to make it stats don't count Scott Side a certain nas
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